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Primitive Cultures are Simple, while Civilization is Complex: Part 1

Category: Falsehoods II
Posted on: May 23, 2010 2:50 PM, by Greg Laden

A "falsehood" is a belief held by a number of people that is in some way incorrect. That incorrectness may be blatant, it may be subtle, it may be conditional, it may be simple, it may be complex. But, the unraveling of the belief, even if much of that belief is in fact true, can be a learning experience in which future thinking about the issue is transformed. If the examination of the falsehood is accomplished in a thoughtful manner and without too much sophistry, this can be a rewarding experience. (If not, it can be rather awaste oftime.)

In order for a falsehood to "work" as a learning opportunity it is important to define it in terms of the thoughts the falsehood invokes in the target audience, which may be very different than the logic intrinsic to the statement itself. For instance, with the present falsehood, I will eventually argue that civilizations actually are complex and primitive cultures actually are simple, when looked at in a certain way. However, most people look at this issue a different way, and get it wrong in a manner that can be quite harmful. Yes, I will be deconstructing some of your cherished beliefs if you are a run of the mill Caucasoido-occidentalonormative middle class suburbanite. Which I'm sure you're not, but if you were...

Many people think of cultural evolution over the last several thousand years as being a shift from a hunting and gathering way of life, through various of agricultural stages, the development of cities, irrigation systems, state societies, etc. Somewhere along the line what humans are doing could start to be described as "civiliation" and most people think of this transition as in increase in complexity. Indeed, many definitions of "civilization" given in a college course on prehistory include "increasing complexity" as an important criterion.

Along with this belief comes another important concept: That the people who live in these developing civilizations required additional mental capacities in order to deal with this increasing complexity. People needed to be smarter, perhaps more adaptable, more long-range thinking, and so on. And along with that belief often comes this assumption individuals may make: "I am a civilized person. Therefore I face challenges that my primitive hunter gatherer fore-bearers did not face. I live in a more complex world than has ever existed before. Indeed, I am this complex world. I. Am. Complex."

Admit it. You were thinking that just now, weren't you?

To examine this way of thinking, let's first problemetize the word "primitive." The word has connotations that are almost always associated with negative things. If you were to be compared to another person, in terms of your taste in clothing, your mental capacity, your talents and skills, your understanding of the world around you, your ideas, and so on, you would feel badly if in each of those comparisons held you as primitive relative to the other person.

Two of the most important areas where primitiveness is often assumed are morality and intelligence. If we go along with the hunter-gatherer vs civilization = primitive vs. not primitive concept, then it falls apart immediately. We don't have IQ data on hunter-gatherers, but we do have some brain size data. Absolute and relative brain size, which may or may not correlate with IQ, is larger for hunter gatherer populations, both living and prehistorically. With respect to the moral/ethical side of things, that is hard to judge because of cultural differences, poor sample size, and a complete absence of a comparative methodology that is not either trite or bankrupt. (Missionaries will tell you that the primitive people are morally inferior. Missionaries suck.) All I can tell you is that Stalin was not a hunter gatherer. Hitler was not a hunter gatherer. Kirk Cameron is not a hunter gatherer. And so on. None of the great moral or ethical transgressions that have been written down in the history books have anything to do with hunter gatherers. Assuming that they are morally inferior is just made up. At worst, there is no evidence pertaining to the question.

So let's dispense with the term "primitive" society vs. civilization and switch to saying Hunter-gatherers vs Western. Why not "civilized"? I'm sorry you asked that. You don't really think you're "civilized" just because you say you are, do you? Abu Ghraib anybody? Fraternities? Teabggers? Civilized? I don't think so. Just "Western," with its less explicit connotation, will do for now although it may not be the best term. Westerners are people who have lived over the last centuries in cities, states, industrially and technologically high energy consumption economies, exemplified for this discussion as you and me.

So Hunter-gatherer vs. Western.

Now consider a simple thought experiment in which we address the question of of how one might go about getting a typical meal on the table. What do you, a Western person, need to do to have dinner and all that entail, vs. what does a Hunter-gatherer have to do?

At first gloss, this is where the "primitive people are simple but civilized people are complex" thing completely disintegrates. To get a meal on a table, a meal that has a piece of meat, a starch, and a vegetable or fruit, here's what you have to do:

  • Step one: Open the refrigerator or freezer and take out a prepared meal in a box.
  • Step two: Put the meal in the microwave and set the timer and press start.
  • Step three: (Careful not to burn yourself!) take out the meal and put it on the table.
(A simplified version would be to press the One-Minute button a bunch of times instead of setting the timer and pressing start.)

For a Hunter-Gatherer to get the same meal, the following has to happen:

First, the camp ("camp" is the term for a residential group of hunter-gatherers) divides up over the course of the day with different groups or individuals seeking out different types of food. The product of these efforts will later be shared.

Some of the men hang out for an hour or two skillfully fashioning pieces of equipment that they will need in their toolkit. Eventually they do some magic and get up and go hunting, with spears, bows and arrows, knives, traps, and other implements that they have manufactured and maintained themselves with materials they have gathered, some quite rare some more common. They will use these tools in a manner that only a lifetime of experience and training will allow. Some of the men are well known for specific techniques they've developed or advanced, some are known for being especially skilled at a particular aspect of hunting. But really, any one man can do any of several difficult tasks requiring command of an impressive breadth and depth of knowledge and lengthy personal experience. They also have one or more properly trained dogs with them. Most likely the dogs were trained by a specialist in dog training. Training dogs to do the kind of hunting foragers engage in is actually rather difficult for a number of reasons I won't go into here.

Eventually, some of the women do some magic and then go, with their children, to a clearing where they know there will probably be roots. They find the small, almost impossible to see vines of various plants coming from the ground and trailing up into the canopy overhead. Some of these vines lead to a root that is used for fish poison, and if you even touch the root you may get sick, so when you are foraging for food, you don't want to accidentally dig it up. Other vines indicate roots that are not ready to dig up yet. The women consult with each other, and the older women instruct the younger women on some of the nuances, and they decide which plants to dig. They sharpen their digging sticks using a knife that they had sharpened earlier that day (the day before, one of them replaced the handle on the same knife) and dig up the roots. They package the roots up in a container skillfully made on the spot, and leave a bit of the roots attached to the vines and replace them in the holes they dug in a certain way so that the roots will regrow in the future. They do some more magic. When they bring the roots back they will have to be processed properly and cooked in a special manner. Even though these particular roots do not have the fish poison in them, they are still highly toxic and the very young and the very old, or the sick, can die from eating them if they are not properly processed.

Another group of women and two men who are disabled go to a stream. The do some magic. They build a two dams on the stream to isolate a 200 foot long section, and empty that section out using 'buckets' they skillfully fashion on the spot. When the stream is half empty, they mush the leaves of a nearby plant into the water, and this causes most of the fish to come to the surface, where they are harvested and wrapped up in packages skillfully made on the spot. Then they start to probe under the partly exposed bank for crustaceans and more fish. Two of the younger women are less careful and are badly shocked by an electric eel, but an older woman administers medicinal aid and explains how to avoid that next time. The women who are shocked do not think this is funny but everyone else does. As the women are finishing up this job, the two disabled men and one of the women gather up and package fruit fallen on the ground from a nearby tree, selecting only the fruits that are fresh and not munched on by the forest antelopes. They note, however, that the forest antelopes have been here, and plan to come back the next morning to set up an ambush.

OK, so that's steps 1 through 64, or so.

Eventually, after a few hours out foraging, all of the people manage to get back at roughly the same time. Two of the women who stayed in the camp hear people returning and skilfully stoke up their fires. Some of the children, as they return, are sent out to get more firewood. Some of the women take burning firebrands from the women who had stayed in camp to make their own fires. Water is fetched, food processed, food put into pots of clay that had been manufactured by some of the women a few months back, and one of the children comes back without water but instead a bunch of peppercorns from a nearby vine.

Eventually all of the food is processed and cooked. Not counting messing with the hunting implements in the morning, the entire process took four hours. And it was a hoot. This was a series of social events, jokes and stories were told, songs sung, tricks were played, people laughed until their sides hurt, people reminisced about a recently dead relative who had always liked to fish this particular stream (but got shocked by the eel that time and swore up and down for an hour, remember???). This wasn't just a trip to the grocery store. It was the expression of a lifeway. Westerners pay extra money to spend a few days every few years doing this. Hunter Gatherers do it every day.

That was approximately steps 65 through 92.

You! Civilized person! Switch places with the hunter gatherers and see if you can make their meal. You would starve. You would die in the bush. You just would not be able to do it. Well, of course, this is a group effort, so that is an unfair comparison.

So, you, and 16 of your best friends and their kids and grandparents! Let's see you do it! Well, no, you'd all still starve if you lived long enough to do so. More likely the fact that you have not developed the social skills to live in this manner for an extended period means that some of you will throttle others of you long before starvation happens.

Indeed, most of the times that Westerners are known to have ended up in the wild on their own they have either a) starved to death or b) eaten each other or c) both. All those stories of people being stuck in the wild and eating each other, without exception, have happened in habitats where hunter-gatherers are known to have lived happily. I wonder if there were hunter-gatherers watching from the bushes while the last member of the Forbisher Expedition dug his own grave?

Some of you are thinking: "Oh, fine, but that knowledge that hunter gatherers have ... that's all manual skill and technical knowledge and stuff, not real knowledge, not the hard to learn knowledge I have like math and stuff!" Well, OK, foragers don't have math. And there are people who argue that only by knowing math can you have a truly advanced brain. I have doubts about those claims and, frankly, about the motivations and experiences of the people who make them. In any event, consider this: The last time I was standing around with a group of people in the woods and one of them was identifying virtually each and every species of plant and animal by Latin name, and indicating potential uses and dangers of each one, that person was a PhD scientist and every other person was totally impressed with the individual's intelligence. You see, when Westerners know scads of esoteric stuff, other Westerners are impressed. When foragers know scads of esoteric stuff, Westerns think it's cute. Not fair.

Eventually a group of Westerners might be able to learn how to do all this, but if you sent a hundred such groups out into the bush to see how well they did (and equip them with books and videos showing how to do all that they need to know) they would still starve or die of mishap long before they got the hang of it. They just would not be smart enough. They just would not be good enough. Even Jack Handy would not be good enough.

On the other hand, if you take a forager and try to teach him or her to open a fridge and operate a microwave, he or she would probably starve to death as well, right?

Keep kidding yourself about that. In part two of this falsehood (yes, this is a multi-part post) we'll look at the other side of the equation. For now, the immediate point should be apparent: When it comes to the basic daily task of putting food on the table, and for that matter for virtually all other daily tasks, you the Westerner can have the capacities of a relatively smart cucumber and you'd be fine, but in the hunter-gather world, it takes a team of highly trained experts working hard and working together doing very complex things every day to survive.


For all the Falsehoods II posts, click here.

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Comments

1

Westerners know what to do when there's no food in the fridge, but hunter-gatherers wouldn't.

Also, when the hunter-gatherers have prepared their food you just have to put some in your bowl and start to eat. Easy as a piece of cake.

I understand what your point is going to be and I agree, but the set-up is a bit too rhetorical for me.

Posted by: devadatta | May 23, 2010 3:56 PM

2

devadatta: I read your words but I don 't understand the meaning HG's put the food i a bowl and start to eat. Do Westerners do something different? What would that be?

Why would a HG not know what do do with an empty fridge? Are you referring to the fact that they don't have refrigerators, and thus have to have expert knowledge in keeping food from going bad without one (in contrast to westerners who can a) just toss the food in the fridge thoughtlessly and b) generally have enough surplus to throw half of what they make away, to the determent of all? )

Please clarify.

Posted by: Greg Laden | May 23, 2010 4:28 PM

3

Yes, but if we're talking about complexity of cultures in general, western culture is far more complex in what happened to the food before it got to the freezer. Sure, for each individual person, it's less complex, but that's because we've outsourced our food gathering to other people so that we don't have to do it ourselves. Our society as a whole is still more complex.

Posted by: anonymous | May 23, 2010 4:42 PM

4

Anonymous: Indeed, and that is the subject of the next post (or the one after that). But what does this say about the falsehood in question?

Posted by: Greg Laden | May 23, 2010 4:46 PM

5

Perhaps, anonymous, but that doesn't confer complexity on each of us individually. You are not complex by being part of a complex society.

Posted by: Stephanie Z | May 23, 2010 4:46 PM

6

The Western person has to earn money to buy the fridge and to buy the food in it. Depending on his work this may be very complex and require lots of skills. If you start the Westerner's dinner with him having all food already gathered you should to the same for the hunter-gatherers.

Western societies are a lot more complex than hunter-gatherer societies, but this is achieved through specialization not by individuals being more intelligent. In a hunter-gatherer society most members know most of what the entire group knows and can take care of himself. In Western society people know a lot about some narrow niches and are almost totally ignorant about most of the rest.

"but in the hunter-gather world, it takes a team of highly trained experts working hard and working together doing very complex things every day to survive."

I can assure you that if there weren't teams of highly trained experts working to keep our civilization running, it would come crashing down very quickly. You just chose not to count the guys who makes sure your electricity is flowing while you did count the woman who started the fire.

Posted by: Thomas | May 23, 2010 4:47 PM

7

When I took introductory cultural anthropology in 1955, it was discussed that a tribal shaman has the same amount of knowledge as a western MD. So why is the matter still in question?

Posted by: Jim Thomerson | May 23, 2010 4:52 PM

8

Greg, you use the term "complex" without defining it. In context, you seem to be equating it with "difficult."

Since "complexity" is a term of art in my discipline, I have to consider that it is also a term of art in yours but with a different meaning. Please explain.

Posted by: D. C. Sessions | May 23, 2010 4:54 PM

9

D.C. it is clear that "complex" means "most steps in the process" if you read the post.

Posted by: Irene | May 23, 2010 5:08 PM

10

Thomas, I think you partly get the point but you seem to be defensively protecting the complexity of the "civilized" even if your argument favors the ambiguity of complexity across kinds of societies.

Posted by: Val | May 23, 2010 5:10 PM

11

I can assure you that if there weren't teams of highly trained experts working to keep our civilization running, it would come crashing down very quickly. You just chose not to count the guys who makes sure your electricity is flowing while you did count the woman who started the fire.

Thomas, you have missed the point, and in so doing may have demonstrated it. Laden is saying that EVERYONE in a Hunter Gatherer society is highly expert, but SOME in a Western society are not. A majority, maybe, of Westerners can be very untrained and unspecialized and inexpert, while no one in the Hunter Gatherer society has that luxury. So when people in Western societies claim superiority over the primitives, they may be correct, but usually they have it ass-backwards.

Posted by: Elaine | May 23, 2010 5:14 PM

12
D.C. it is clear that "complex" means "most steps in the process" if you read the post.

That's one way to read it, but of course (if true) is massively sensitive to the granularity used in decomposing the process to "steps." Which gets right back to definitions. Again, in my discipline the "number of steps" (which we call something else) is also subject to the decomposition problem and has been the topic of many dead trees when comparing "steps" in different contexts.

Posted by: D. C. Sessions | May 23, 2010 5:19 PM

13

D. C., I suspect that if you dig into the falsehoods in general, you'll find that definitions are a major part of the problem. I suspect that they are amplified by people describing the truths that they do know and applying the same words, with different meanings, to come up with implications that are false.

Posted by: Stephanie Z | May 23, 2010 5:23 PM

14

DC, I would be happy to see an argument that decomposes the granularity of complexity of a forager system and a western system that ends up demonstrating that the difference in personal vs. social is even, arbitrary, rand, or biased towards western complexity being being mostly individual. That would falsify my hypothesis.

You are correct that there is granularity, but saying that does not affect my argument at all. It simply means that you must now demonstrate the difference from what I'm saying that you are implying. All else being equal, My argument is unaffected by issues of granularity.

Posted by: Greg Laden | May 23, 2010 5:30 PM

15

I'm with Greg on this one. I don't think that we are any smarter than those older groups. We have developed writing and other skills that, I contend, could be learned by many individuals of ancient times, if they were dropped into our society at an early enough age. The skills required for the hunter-gatherer lifestyle are a lot tougher than most people give credit for. I've lived out of a backpack, and have found some of my food in the wild. I lost weight. Well, that and some serious mountain hiking to with it. You'd better know which plants can kill or sicken you if you're starving. Try the US Army survival manual. Read it and work your way through it, trying longer and longer stays in the wild. Now, a lot of what is in that survival manual, those hunter gatherers learned by word of mouth, as they had no written word. I find that pretty impressive...but no more so than what we do, we just have easier access to the knowledge. Also, I see people barely intelligent enough to run the microwave living in our society, and all they can talk about is "American Idol".

Posted by: AtomJack | May 23, 2010 5:31 PM

16

Ha. All Laden had to do was say "American Idol" and half of his point would have been made!

Posted by: Tom S. | May 23, 2010 5:43 PM

17

"Higher technology does not imply greater intelligence" is something worth reminding people of whenever you have a chance. It is easy to forget.

I think maybe "urbanized" might be a better word than "Western", though. Urbanized people all over the world have the same bias against hunter-gatherers, and even against farmers within their own culture!

Posted by: CherryBomb | May 23, 2010 6:56 PM

18

One of the differences in western societies is that the complexity is cryptic and hidden. Some of that is inherent because it takes a long time to acquire specialist knowledge, but also some of it is by design, by keeping “trade secrets” some humans achieve advantages over other humans.

The place where hidden knowledge is most important is in trading (marketing) and in other social interactions. That is where western societies become extremely complex, with laws written by one set of specialist (the lobbyist), passed by another specialist (the representative), enforced by another specialist (the police), violators accused by another specialist (the prosecutor), with the details fought out between other specialists (lawyers), in front of another specialist (the judge), all of these specialists can get overruled by other specialists (appeal judges).

In many cases the laws are written to be deceptive so that they can be applied in special cases.

Posted by: daedalus2u | May 23, 2010 6:59 PM

19

I believe you were thinking of Stuart Smalley rather than Jack Handey.

Posted by: Nemo | May 23, 2010 7:06 PM

20

I agree with what I think you're saying, that while some societies are surely more complex than others, this says nothing about the individuals within the societies. Until further evidence, I believe individuals in hunter-gatherer societies and individuals in modern urban societies are equally complex. I don't much like your decision to use the term Western, by the way, there's nothing Western about a large proportion of complex civilizations.

On the other hand I think you're being a bit unfair to 'Westerners' when it comes to obtaining food. It doesn't get in the fridge by itself, after all. In our family we obtain food by a variety of complex stratagems but they basically start by fixing up computer systems for people on the other side of the planet, then we navigate our dangerous motor vehicule through a complex road system to a supermarket, which, frankly, is where our troubles begin.

What makes our societies more complex is the variety of root strategies for getting food. We fix computer systems, others heal people, some build bridges, or houses, or so on. Typically, we have no idea how to do each others' jobs. There is specialization in hunter-gatherer societies, often on gender lines, but I think it's less extreme.

Posted by: Pen | May 23, 2010 7:17 PM

21
I agree with what I think you're saying, that while some societies are surely more complex than others, this says nothing about the individuals within the societies. Until further evidence, I believe individuals in hunter-gatherer societies and individuals in modern urban societies are equally complex.

Not clear at all. A complex (in the mathematical sense) society actually enables (and depends upon) individual specialization. For a lot of reasons, it turns out that the most robust complex systems actually depend on individual elements being less versatile (e.g. fewer catastrophic outcomes.)

On the other hand, social organizations beyond the tribal are practically defined by their greater complexity (again, in the mathematical sense) and the ways that they deal with it. The number of possible social combinations practically exploded in the 20th century and today are into territory no previous civilization has come within orders of magnitudes of approaching. Consider this discussion as an example: as far as I know, only two of us have actually met in the flesh, and they don't live within practical walking distance of each other.

The whole subject is readily confused further by irrelevancies such as environment-specific skills. Not just "urban vs. wilderness" but which urban and which wilderness. The Apache I know are damn good at tracking elk and deer, at surviving in mountain country in summer and winter, and at finding water. Drop them into the Amazon rain forest and I wouldn't bet on them surviving a day much less a week. Likewise for an Inuit in the Mexican Sierra Madre or either of them in Seri country along the Gulf of Cortez [2].

None of the above contradicts Greg's thesis that members of 21st century technical civilization mistake the competencies of that civilization for personal virtues of their own. For that matter, one of my pet peeves is about people who imagine that somehow the existence of the Internet [1], or cars, or television, or airplanes, or ... makes them personally "smarter" than our ancestors who lived without indoor plumbing, that they would actually win a battle of wits with Pythagoras or Confucius.

[1] Which they almost certainly don't have Clue One about other than double-clicking on the "Internet" icon.
[2] Well, OK -- the Apache might last a little longer in Seri country but they're neighbors. The deserts are a bit similar but the Apache aren't expert deep-water fishermen. The Inuit fish but wouldn't live long enough to get hungry.

Posted by: D. C. Sessions | May 23, 2010 7:58 PM

22


This was very interesting and I look forward to the next parts.

I never could much follow the argument that "civilised" living required people to be smarter. My intuitive understanding was always that "civilisation" provided a kind of buffer which would in fact allow people (on average) to be less smart- (I can now recognise this is also a flawed and prejudiced idea) My point, such as it is, was that I found it frustrating that "the people got smarter and made agriculture and then cities" progression was supposed to be "self evident", because to me it seemed unlikely.

The idea of a "progression" between a HG existence through agriculture to cities is a peculiar one too. I remember reading (* I think in a PR article about domestication*) that adoption of a "proto-agrarian" lifestyle from a HG lifestyle had been postulated to cause a decrease in human health/welfare. If true (I did not research the validity of the claim at the time) it would imply that extant HG societies were those that never wandered down the darn-fool agrarian experiment in the first place. Even if such a "progression" existed it seems strange to think that there is an optimal position on it (or direction of it) which would suit all groups in all areas equally.

I am not sure that the expression Westerner as a contrast of HG works well though. I personally find it confusing as my understanding (which could be flawed) was that domestication of plants/animals (and therefore "agriculture") arose in China at a very similar time to when it arose in the fertile crescent and therefore the "agrarian experiment" is in no way a Western phenomenon. The choice may well make more sense in the context of the whole post series however (besides which my personal discomfort with the term is no reason to chance it).

Posted by: bethK | May 23, 2010 9:15 PM

23

Is this meant to be a contrast between HGs and agrarian societies, HGs and city-building societies, HGs and industrial societies...?

Posted by: Azkyroth | May 23, 2010 10:24 PM

24

I think all of the above, Azkyroth. You could look at it as a hierarchy of scorn, with industrial societies tsk-tsking at the lower intelligence and obvious moral deficiencies of those below, etc. It is an interesting discussion, and I am warming up.

Posted by: CherryBomb | May 23, 2010 10:38 PM

25

On the other hand, social organizations beyond the tribal are practically defined by their greater complexity (again, in the mathematical sense) and the ways that they deal with it.

We have not used "tribal" as a classification in forever. Your analysis of human societies should be based on a modern understanding of those societies. Indeed, the way you phrase this, it is clear that you have a predisposed lineal sequence in mind as it is (the use of "beyond"). You may as well stop your analysis now because your conclusion is foregone.

Posted by: Greg Laden | May 23, 2010 10:50 PM

26

Is this meant to be a contrast between HGs and agrarian societies, HGs and city-building societies, HGs and industrial societies...?

Clearly, a contrast between HG's and industrial societies. Like the post says.

Try reading slower .. :)

But yes, CherryBomb has a point. This "I'm better than them" conclusion is pretty typical for all those dyads.

Posted by: Greg Laden | May 23, 2010 10:52 PM

27
Abu grave anybody?
Abu what?

Posted by: V. infernalis | May 23, 2010 11:01 PM

28

I love the concept that Westerners left on their own either die, eat each other, or both. A wonderful natural experiment.

Posted by: Andrew | May 23, 2010 11:39 PM

29

What about Falsehoods that are intentionally contrived to reach a certain political goal, like hiding the decline? (or telling people that someone is hiding the decline)

Posted by: Terrence | May 23, 2010 11:47 PM

30

Greg, I meant that if you start from having a ready dinner in the fridge, you're starting from such an advanced position in how to get your food that it's similar to a prepared meal in HG society.

Also, you need to get to the market to buy new food when you don't have any left, and that is a lot of new instructions.

What you're probably getting at (sorry if I sounded too sure about it) is that there's probably the same amount of learned instructions per time unit in the behaviour of both Westerners and HGs. I would assume so myself since we're the same species and so genetically similar (and I don't think cultures differ too much in how much their members utilize their whole mental capacity).

There are two interesting question here however. What share of all our learned instructions is due to individuals learning by themselves, and what share is due to imitating others behavior? There's probably a difference here of more imiation in Western societies, but I don't think it has to be big or significant. Boyd & Richerson have made some interesting work on this.

And the other question is, what is the cumulative amount of brainpower behind a certain imitated behaviour? I think this is the crucial question. For most behaviors even in Western societies, it's not too great. You just have to push a button to start a computer. But to make a computer, you must have knowledge based on knowledge based on knowledge (and the related trial and error behavior needed to make it) almost ad infinitum, both in time and number of people.

There's a game you can play. Close your thumb and index finger to a circle and look through it some 2 dm from your eye. How many people in total where needed to make everything you see?

Posted by: devadatta | May 24, 2010 1:21 AM

31

I see a computer screen. I imagine a lot of people made it.

Posted by: Terrence | May 24, 2010 1:27 AM

32

"We don't have IQ data on hunter-gatherers, but we do have some brain size data. Absolute and relative brain size, which may or may not correlate with IQ, is larger for hunter gatherer populations, both living and prehistorically. "

Here we go again.

Posted by: Isabel | May 24, 2010 2:07 AM

33

No, Isabel. Here YOU go again. There is no "we" in the phrase "over the top out of control troll off her meds."

Posted by: Greg Laden | May 24, 2010 2:31 AM

34

Elaine #11, hunter-gatherer societies are a very diverse group, but as far as I know it is common that they take care of even their more stupid members, giving them simple jobs that doesn't require the kind of expertise you are talking about.

Posted by: Thomas | May 24, 2010 6:35 AM

35

> Why not "civilized"?

Because "civilization" is defined as a society with organized government, social hierarchy, dependence on agriculture, and existence of cities. Civilization does not mean a society of people who are more intelligent or more moral, or more complex on an individual level.

Civilization is an amoral creature. 21st century USA is not "uncivilized" because of Abu Ghraib. 20th century Germany was not uncivilized when it created Auschwitz. The Aztecs were not made uncivilized by the slaughter at Tenochtitlan. In fact, large-scale torture and bloodshed is only possible because civilization exists.

> Westerners are people who have lived over the last centuries in cities, states, industrially and technologically high energy consumption economies.

So the inhabitants of modern-day Chengdu and Hyderabad are Westerners? The Sami people are not Westerners? Where do ancient civilizationsthingies like the Roman empire and Ankor Wat fit in?

Posted by: Sorcha | May 24, 2010 7:24 AM

36

You are using a false application of the idea of "complex society" (i.e. I live in a complex society and am therefore superior to those who do not) to attack the idea itself. That's a fundamental error.

The idea "complex society" refers to the complex structure of the society as a whole, not to the complex nature of each and every life within it. In fact, the "evolution of civilization" theories you are attacking here sometime specifically argue that many aspects of individual life are simplified through the complexification of the social structure.

Assembly line manufacturing, for instance requires a complex organization, but mostly simplified roles within it.

There are elements of individual civilized life that ARE more complex--dealing with authority, for instance--but that's not the hallmark of a "complex society," and it is a falsehood to pretend otherwise.

Posted by: Oran Kelley | May 24, 2010 8:43 AM

37

re: #32, brain size of urban/westerners vs hunter-gatherers, I've read that domesticated animals have smaller brains than wild counterparts & it wouldn't surprise me that the same applied to UWs compared to HGs. Have we domesticated ourselves? Can anyone provide references to actual data to support this hypothesis?

In a similar vein, Jared Diamond, in "Guns, Germs and Steel", hypothesizes that HGers are "on the average more intelligent, more alert, more expressive, and more interested in things and people around them than the average European or American is." He attributes this to 1) genetic differences due to selection (causes of mortality & subsequent reproduction in UW environments have been related to immunological competence, not intelligence. In contrast, "Intelligent people are likelier than less intelligent ones to escape ... causes of high mortality in traditional ... societies." 2) HGers during childhood spend their time interacting with people and their environment and are more socially and environmentally competent than UWers who spend their time being passively entertained by TV, etc. (Yes, this is a recent development, but applicable to how we look at things in the present. And probably in the future, if we can't evolve away from our maladaptive high-energy, high-throughput civilization.)

Posted by: FrankP | May 24, 2010 9:04 AM

38

Regarding the issue of whether Urban/Westerners or their civilization are complex, consider the nature of emergence: complexity in many systems is an emergent property of simpler lower-level entities. Can we draw an analogy with social insects; might our complex UW civilization be the result of simpler people compared to more complex (?) people in "simpler" HG societies?

Posted by: FrankP | May 24, 2010 9:09 AM

39

Sorcha: Yes, the word "civilized" does in fact have different meanings, and the meanings can cause confusion or it can allow one to be selective in the overall meaning of statements that compare "primitive" to "civilized." Funny that you have not critiqued the word "primitive." So yes, your comments on the term are exemplary.

Same with the term "Western."

Posted by: Greg Laden | May 24, 2010 11:03 AM

40

Oran: Yes, yes yes yes yes indeed!!!

FrankP, I agree with Jared's observations but I don't think he's found any genes the rest of us don't know about.

Posted by: Greg Laden | May 24, 2010 11:05 AM

41

"with the present falsehood, I will eventually argue that civilizations actually are complex and primitive cultures actually are simple, when looked at in a certain way. However, most people look at this issue a different way, and get it wrong in a manner that can be quite harmful." -- Greg Laden

If I correctly understand what you are trying to do with this essay, you seem to be suggesting that "most people" employ a belief about themselves that you, personally, don't hold as valid, i.e. that the intellectual pedestal they place themselves on relative to "more primitive" groups is a "harmful" self-serving delusion.

I don't question the assertion that most people employ self-serving delusions to facilitate functioning in their individual cognitive universes, but you haven't quite explained what you perceive as "harmful", which I actually think would be more to a potentially useful point. Harmful to themselves? Harmful to the "more primitive" groups? Harmful to the cohesion of current societies? Harmful to relations between current societies?

From my point of view, there is likely harm done in all of those directions. But delusion can also have significantly adaptive consequences. The desire to feel superior to others in some way is apparently a rather universal human trait. It appears to prompt division of our numbers into smaller groups which can then reconfigure their internal organization to more efficiently adapt to varied external cultural or environmental conditions. For instance, you point to Tea Parties with some derision for their self-serving delusions. But are they not separating themselves from a larger group that, to them, has become too large, too costly, too unresponsive, and too corrupt? Does it really matter what the objectively valid truth underlying their delusions is? The functioning truth is that their delusions serve to bind them into a, from their point of view, more viable social configuration. Time will tell if they succeed or not.

As to your preoccupation with the term "complex" as applied to either contemporary or historical societies, didn't that term come into use when sociologists tried describing various societies in terms of functional "roles"? A society that had fewer roles necessary for it to function viably was deemed less complex. The use of that term implied nothing relative to the complexity and sophistication of knowledge necessary to fulfilling each role, a useful distinction you seem to largely overlook. That the concept became corrupted or perverted as it bled into larger use isn't at all unusual. That's the way language evolves. The interesting question for me would be to what use is it being employed by whom these days, and to what consequence?

Posted by: greigos | May 24, 2010 11:21 AM

42

FrankP: Yes, the whole emergence thing is important. In particular, it may remove agency from the hands of the "civilizers."

Posted by: Greg Laden | May 24, 2010 11:21 AM

43

greigos: Thanks for the comments. There are two more parts to this post, but in truth I'm not going to expand much on the concept of harm. I don't have space and time to do it here, but it is worth examining. (And it has been examined on this blog.)

Does the truth matter in the face of what might be an adaptive delusion? Well, you asked about harm. Yes, of course it does.

Regarding my "preoccupation" with the term complex: It probably does look like I'm rather preoccupied with the term, but then again, that is what the post is about so well....

Anyway, yes, it has a social meaning. We are talking about a falsehood here. Keep that in mind, and I think you'll enjoy Part 2.

Posted by: Greg Laden | May 24, 2010 11:36 AM

44
We have not used "tribal" as a classification in forever. Your analysis of human societies should be based on a modern understanding of those societies. Indeed, the way you phrase this, it is clear that you have a predisposed lineal sequence in mind as it is (the use of "beyond"). You may as well stop your analysis now because your conclusion is foregone.

Greg, we're talking about ordered sets here. Your very title deals with ordered sets -- what's at issue is the ordering.

Call it what you will, my domain is the number of humans in a group and my range is the social complexity, as defined mathematically as the number of possible relationship graphs supported by the society.

The correlation to "western" or "agrarian" or "hunter-gatherer" or any other socioeconomic attributes are purely related to the populations, population densities, and communications that these support.

All of which are pretty simple, easily related to fundamental mathematics, and irrelevant to anything having to do with the attributes of the individuals in the societies in question. However, for the only definition of "complexity" that I have to work with (since I'm something of a mathematician) in the absence of a clearer definition from you (or mindreading) it's what I get when I read your essays.

Posted by: D. C. Sessions | May 24, 2010 7:07 PM

45

Falsehood: Most if not all westerners look down on hunter-gatherers.

Truth: Some do. On the other hand, some idolize them far beyond what they are. Some have lived in the third world (and in the field, desert, and mountains here in the U.S.) and know a lot of what's involved in survival as a hunter-gatherer (and how much harder it is if you don't start with at least a knife).

Posted by: Kirth Gersen | June 24, 2010 12:21 AM

46

>Missionaries will tell you that the primitive people are morally inferior. Missionaries suck.

What I've read of missionary history suggests that while they were by definition not cultural relativists, and certainly not free from racism and cultural bigotry, they also had far more nice words for their host cultures than non-missionaries. Typically that would be along "noble savage" lines, less decadent etc. In many senses the opposite of morally inferior.

That's historical missionaries. Today, it's a rare missionary to "primitive" peoples who isn't passionately concerned with the protection of their language, ways of life and traditions (as long as they don't conflict with the missionary's religion ... in which they can be recorded and stored away like the Icelandic Eddas).

Posted by: Harald Korneliussen | August 12, 2010 5:43 AM

47

Harald, "rare" modern missionaries are perhaps not as rare as you'd like to think. Try this for some background reading.

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/missionaries/

Posted by: Stephanie Z | August 12, 2010 7:22 AM

48

Kirth:
Falsehood: Most if not all westerners look down on hunter-gatherers.

Truth: Some do. On the other hand, some idolize them far beyond what they are.

First, no. The numbers you have are reversed. Most westerners do not live in the humbling places, and most westerners assume that foragers are primitive forms of humans. Also, those who "idolize them" and see them through Rousseauian glasses are not failing to look down on them by doing so.

I can count on the number of fingers found in a typical group of foragers the number of people I know who have a realistic, reasonably accurate idea of forager lifeway, what it involved, and what the variation is. Others are not intentionally looking down (or up) at foragers, but most think that they know enough to have opinions. Which they don't and they shouldn't. What most people think of foragers is fantasy, one way or another. The people who are being concieved of deserve to be thought of as they are or have been, just like anyone else.

Posted by: Greg Laden | August 12, 2010 9:20 AM

49

Nice try, Harold, but you are making that up. Thanks for the link Stephanie.

Posted by: Greg Laden | August 12, 2010 9:23 AM

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