The Pledge Of Allegiance in Schools?

One final Back To School item. Do you think students should be required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in US Public Schools every day? Increasingly, this is being required. Here are a number of reasons to NOT allow this, and a suggestion as to what to do about it: Demand that the Pledge of Allegiance Not Be Recited in Your Local School.

Comments

  1. #1 Dan
    September 8, 2011

    Of course they should, don’t be silly. The community and the nation provides for these kids’ education so you damn well better believe I want them pledging allegiance to it. If they want the option to bow out of the pledge let them home school or go to a private school.

  2. #2 Sondrah Laden
    September 8, 2011

    I’m fine with it. If you don’t like the pledge work on getting it altered, but until then (which I don’t care one way or the other) it is fine for kid’s to recite.

  3. #3 Bruce Wright
    September 8, 2011

    Number one, nobody is ever legally required to recite the Pledge. It’s been established by the courts that that’s forced speech.

    Two, I don’t like the God part of the pledge, as it’s excluding of kids who have differing beliefs and family traditions, but are nonetheless American.

    Third, not all kids *are* American in American schools. We making the exchange students, the kids here on their parents’ work visas, etc pledge a loyalty oath to the United States?

    Fourth, loyalty oaths are creepy. I’m happy to state that I am proud of my country. I’m not happy to be led in a mindless chant to that effect.

  4. #4 Jeff Sherry
    September 8, 2011

    Don’t be silly Dan, of course they shouldn’t. What is the purpose of the pledge?

  5. #5 Greg Laden
    September 8, 2011

    Bruce: Number one, nobody is ever legally required to recite the Pledge. It’s been established by the courts that that’s forced speech.

    Did you read the original post on this point? Please don’t ignore that. As to your other points, yes, they are addressed there. Have a look.

    Sondrah, I don’t know a single teacher that likes the pledge being required in class. It has too little value and there is not enough time as it is to do what has to be done.

    These issues are also addressed in the original post.

  6. #6 Raging Bee
    September 8, 2011

    Here’s another option: just tell your kids they can stay silent and not chant along if they wish. What’s the school going to do — look at video every day and punish every kid whose lips aren’t visibly moving? If they try to punish any kid for not saying the pledge, the parents can sue, and the school will look bad for initiating the action.

    As for loyalty to the country, that’s something minors are not legally competent to pledge or promise. And it’s not like we’re going to deport every kid who fails to say the pledge. So all in all, it’s good in theory (minus the God bit of course), but totally meaningless in practice.

  7. #7 Greg Laden
    September 8, 2011

    Here’s another option: just tell your kids they can stay silent and not chant along if they wish. What’s the school going to do — look at video every day and punish every kid whose lips aren’t visibly moving?

    That is addressed in the original blog post. You should go comment there!

  8. #8 nice_marmot
    September 8, 2011

    The Pledge of Allegiance is just another example of the overreaching fascist IslamoMarxism of the Obama Administration. Whatever happened to states’ rights? In fact, whatever happened to county, city, and schools’ rights? Our children should be pledging allegiance to their own classrooms; we must protect the sovereignty of our childrens’ classrooms against unlawful interference from other classrooms!
    And the unchecked despostism of principals!
    And local and state school boards, and so on, just as Jesus intended.

  9. #9 dean
    September 8, 2011

    ” The community and the nation provides for these kids’ education so you damn well better believe I want them pledging allegiance to it. If they want the option to bow out of the pledge let them home school or go to a private school.”

    Except the country provides protection and services for private and home schoolers as well, so why should they get off (pardon the phrase) “free”?

    Enforcing patriotism by ordering it so? Doesn’t that seem counter-productive?

  10. #10 Dan
    September 8, 2011

    Except the country provides protection and services for private and home schoolers as well, so why should they get off (pardon the phrase) “free”?

    The country isn’t providing a dime for the education of private and home schoolers, but they are for public schools. Our dime, our dance floor.

    Enforcing patriotism by ordering it so? Doesn’t that seem counter-productive?

    Nope, not in the slightest.

  11. #11 Tony
    September 8, 2011

    @Dan-
    Yes because as we all know, patriotism isn’t genuine unless it’s compelled.

  12. #12 dean
    September 8, 2011

    Dan, the state provides:
    Fire departments, roads the families use, police service – did you miss or ignore my point?

    Trying to teach patriotism and the notion of a free populace by forcing recitation of a pledge (primarily, as that is how it starts) to a piece of cloth isn’t counterproductive? Isn’t against the ideals you’re trying to introduce? Now you’re just being silly.

  13. #13 joemac53
    September 8, 2011

    My students were compelled to listen to the pledge, but could sit silently and not recite. I thought this was OK. As long as the teacher made sure non-reciters were not abused, this method worked smoothly for 35 years.

  14. #14 Greg Laden
    September 8, 2011

    joemac53, sorry, but I know a lot of teachers who would disagree with you and who have had very different experiences than you seem to be claiming.

    Regarding funding: The state certainly does provide funding for home school!

  15. #15 Badger3k
    September 8, 2011

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

    Children can’t be forced to recite the pledge thanks to that judicial decision. Anyone forcing them would lose the court case.

  16. #16 pornalysis
    September 8, 2011

    Maybe if we changed the word from G-d to Gaia, or a short prayer to the sacred earth mother Yoni everyone would be happy? At least the most vocal amongst them would be…

  17. #17 Greg Laden
    September 8, 2011

    Badger3k, this assumes no influence of the prevailing culture. Trust me, they’ll be forced to say the pledge. And to assume that a problem like this will go away because people will “sue” or “take it to court” is not really ideal.

  18. #18 Mark P
    September 8, 2011

    I have real problems with pledging allegiance to a flag in the first place. How about something that starts like this:

    “I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States, and to the principles for which it stands …”

  19. #19 Amenhotepstein
    September 8, 2011

    I agree with Mark P. It’s stupid to pledge allegiance to a flag. Your “allegiance”, such as it is, should be pledged to the fundamental laws of this country.

    I say, replace the pledge with daily readings of portions of the Constitution. Not long, say one section or amendment per day. The kids would learn something, and nobody would be forced recite in mindless chants.

    Maybe it wouldn’t be a bad idea to have all the Republican presidential candidates join in as well ;-)

  20. #20 Drivebyposter
    September 9, 2011

    Maybe if we changed the word from G-d to Gaia, or a short prayer to the sacred earth mother Yoni everyone would be happy? At least the most vocal amongst them would be…

    er… When was it ever G-d? It’s in there as “god.”

    As to the Gaia thing, that is just as stupid as god. But only about half as stupid as you seem to be.

  21. #21 tony
    September 9, 2011

    “As to the Gaia thing, that is just as stupid as god. But only about half as stupid as you seem to be.”

    His web site seems pretty fucking stupid too.

  22. #22 Regina Bell
    September 9, 2011

    Nazi salute cames from the Pledge of Allegiance. The early pledge was performed with a stiff-armed salute. See the work of the historian Dr. Rex Curry. His website has astounding photos and video. The pledge was written by American national socialists who influenced German national socialists. If schools taught the truth then no one would chant the pledge and it would cease to exist.

  23. #23 I. Snarlalot
    September 9, 2011

    So apparently the sooner developing brains are made receptive to state sponsored brainwashing the better. Maybe make them march around in North Korean style mass spectacles as well. Hmm, maybe add a prayer niche with a bust of Robert E. Lee in it… Makes my schmaltzy heart ooze with weepy, ecstatic ectoplasm.

  24. #24 anandine
    September 9, 2011

    When I refused to lead the pledge when it was my turn in 8th grade in 1958 (I stood respectfully each day but would not say the words), I was sent to the vice principal’s office, who called my mom. She said she would have said the pledge, but I had my reasons (that my political beliefs were none of the school’s business, and they could not require me to state any political opinion), so she backed me.

    They sent me back to class, an outcast but unpunished.

  25. #25 Sawdust Sam
    September 9, 2011

    As a non-American, it seems to me that any legal, physical or psychological persecution of a dissenter goes against the spirit of a pledge that claims ‘liberty and justice for all’.

  26. #26 Stephanie Z
    September 9, 2011

    anandine, “outcast” and “unpunished” are contradictory.

  27. #27 pornalysis
    September 9, 2011

    Drivebyposter: you are aptly named, but maybe consider “hit and run poster”–it suits your collateral sniping style much better. Then again, maybe I was born in a different century than you were.

    Idiot–the G-d part is here:”one nation under g-d, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all..”

    tony–Idiots abound, and for that matter ‘your mother—yo mama– is pretty stupid’ too… you’re still doing better than straight out ad himinem…

  28. #28 Jesse
    September 9, 2011

    (Sigh).

    Regina– the guy who wrote the Pledge was Francis Bellamy. He was a Socialist, but he had zero connection to the National Socialists you mention. The stiff-arm salute was quite common in the first half of the 20th century, in many nations, as were other forms of salute.

    In the US, the various flag codes have, as far as I know, always said the two permissible salutes are military (if you are a veteran) and right hand over heart (which itself bears a passing resemblance to the salute used in some nations, though I am not sure it is related).

    This hasn’t much to do with whether people should say it or not. The courts are clear — you can’t be forced to do it. The surrounding culture is less so.

    An interesting thing to me is that as a kid I got the words completely wrong, as I had no idea (at 6) what the hell they meant. The words “pledge” and “allegiance” in particular stumped me. I said “plezhaleegets” and had no idea.

  29. #29 Drivebyposter
    September 9, 2011

    Pornalysis:
    You should change your name to Ipoststupidshit. It suits your posting style much better.

    “G-d” is not in there. It’s in there as “God…” as I said in my last message. It isn’t pronounce “gd” or “gee dee” when spoken. It’s in there as “god.” Have you never heard the pledge before?

    Also, try spelling “ad hominem” correctly. And also try using the term correctly.

  30. #30 Greg Laden
    September 10, 2011

    ight hand over heart (which itself bears a passing resemblance to the salute used in some nations, though I am not sure it is related).

    Perhaps you are thinking of the salute originated by Zog the First.

    Anyway, the salute bit of this is interesting and could be further developed. For instance, in saying The Pledge, you are supposed to take off your hat, unless it is a religious hat.Is that giving proper deference to religion or is it accounting for religion?

  31. #31 tony
    September 10, 2011

    @pornanalysis
    Actually drivebyposter is not a “hit and run poster”. The name was picked ironically. From what I’ve seen he frequently engages the other posters here.

  32. #32 chasmaporthetes
    September 10, 2011

    I lived in West Germany in the 1960’s and attended German public schools. We had no equivalent of the pledge. Perhaps it was because by that time the Germans had had quite enough of mindless jingoistic chanting.

  33. #33 pornalysis
    September 10, 2011

    @Drivebyposter: Oh lawwwd. You don’t know ad hominem from ad himinem. Ad himinem is the usual anti-male attack the bots use.

    Here’s the franc hoggle proof: “Argumentum ad himinem is an attempt to link the truth of a claim to a negative characteristic or belief of the person advocating it. Closely related to ad hominem, literal Latin “to the man”, this is instead “to the male” and removes gender ambiguity. It is however equally applicable to females who inexplicably defend argument as though cum testiculis, or seek to defend indefensible and erroneous male perspectives. Antonym to ad feminam.” http://greylining.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/our-dynamic-and-expanding-vernacular-thanks-becky/

    And you said “only about half as stupid as you seem to be. ”

    Which is THE CLASSIC ad hom. Now G-d damn you, its Gawd, get it right for Jeebus Crisis sake. Then stick your version of G-d up your ass, where your ‘God’ belongs. There is a place for you Christians and their lawdy somewhere–but keep them away from the kiddies.

    tony: BUT still–yo mama, ad feminam.

  34. #34 Drivebyposter
    September 11, 2011

    I’m not christian. I was just specifying it as “god” so it clearly isn’t some bullshit fetishized word. You know….how some cultists type “G-d” because they aren’t worthy to type the real thing? The way you were typing it.

    Also, I am 100% convinced you are suffering from some form of psychosis.

    When was I being anti-male?
    When did I “attempt to link the truth of a claim to a negative characteristic or belief of the person advocating it”?
    I said your claim was stupid, but you are twice as stupid as said claim. Please hold your breath and try to figure out what you are fucking talking about before typing.
    I’ll just sit here and keep an eye on the newspapers and see if “Moron Dies From Holding Breath” becomes a headline.

  35. #35 Raging Bee
    September 11, 2011

    Sorry, porno-boy, calling you a moron and an asshole is not “ad hominem;” it’s a fact, easily proven by your actions — especially the sheer quantity of pointless, labored insults you bring to every thread. Quit being a blustering crybaby and start earning some respect.

  36. #36 pornalysis
    September 15, 2011

    Drivebyposter: It’s not easy being green…you should try it sometime, you might burst your own bubble! The one that you are sucking out of your ass with ad-homs and ad hims.

    And my, my, would you be surprised if I told you–aw, heck, I will give you a clue–part of my discussion here is actually devoted to revealing the nature of verbal violence of those who claim they are progressives, and particularly–aw, hell, that’s enough for you.

    Fighting words, and the relation of ‘progressive ideology’ to imperialistic war fare…

    And if something I say is refutable, then refute it, or shut the hell up. You yourself just troll.

    And “G-d” is my own personal nod to some of the people who first told me about Gawd, concentration camp Jews–those superstitious, tattooed cultists!

    It signified, for them, that you could never speak the real, actual name of Gawd, and could never know ‘his’ purpose. Damn cultists, and that mystical crap theyput in your head about surviving the lunatics and their social policies….

    For me, it is my personal decision not to follow all you failed or reformed Catholics and cultists around in the herd,writing it out all the time. Writing ‘G-d’ is my personal protest against even writing what you ppl belabor as discussions about G-d.

    You G-d damned stupid fuck.( how does that sort of insult feel, anyways?) You stupid cocksucker…( example of ad himinem..)

    But in your case? Likely your insults are a pathological narcissistic impulse, a need to feel superior in a debasing, devolving society.

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