Living the Scientific Life (Scientist, Interrupted)

According to a recent Newsweek poll, only 3% of Americans claim to be atheists. I know a lot of atheists, so I am wondering if I know all of the atheists in America? Do they all know each other?

Nine in 10 (91 percent) of American adults say they believe in God and almost as many (87 percent) say they identify with a specific religion. Christians far outnumber members of any other faith in the country, with 82 percent of the poll’s respondents identifying themselves as such. Another 5 percent say they follow a non-Christian faith, such as Judaism or Islam. Nearly half (48 percent) of the public rejects the scientific theory of evolution; one-third (34 percent) of college graduates say they accept the Biblical account of creation as fact. Seventy-three percent of Evangelical Protestants say they believe that God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years; 39 percent of non-Evangelical Protestants and 41 percent of Catholics agree with that view. [story].

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Comments

  1. #1 Daedalus
    March 31, 2007

    I’m an atheist in Alabama. Imagine how lonely that can get.

  2. #2 stewart
    March 31, 2007

    41% of Catholics don’t know Catholic teaching about the sciences? That’s very worrisome.

  3. #3 z flynn
    April 1, 2007

    Perhaps these religious kooks are right after all. If there are that many monumentally stupid people who don’t believe in science then the human race is NOT evolving but rather DEvolving, returning to a stupider, more primitive state.

    I read the last report by the National Institute of Literacy that stated 90 million adults are functionally illiterate, meaning they haven’t the intellectual capacity to read or understand even simple phrases such as in a newspaper even if they can tell you the words. With more than 50% of adults being that dim I might wager these polls could be right.

    What an absolute horror, as the American Empire falls its populace turns into masses of easily manipulated morons. No wonder the criminal profiteers have taken over so easily.

  4. #4 Assaji
    April 1, 2007

    If you think the average American is moronic, just imagine the lower 50%.

  5. #5 Paul Sunstone
    April 1, 2007

    Has it ever been much different? Has there ever been a time or place when most people were not foolish and dim-witted about a good many things? Is there any reason to believe people are smarter now than they were in the Middle Ages?

    I think the average person does an adequate job managing his or her own immediate life. It’s when s/he deals with matters that are not of pressing pratical importance to them — god, evolution, and so forth — that s/he falls flat.

    Maybe I’m just an optimist. I see that half of people accept evolution and say, “Well, the glass is half full”.

    As for atheism, I doubt many people will ever adopt it. Seems to me that religiosity is a by product of things deeply entrenched in human nature — such as the propensity of humans to ascribe personalities to things, or to look for agents as causes of things. Religion will be around so long as our species is around.

  6. #6 decrepitoldfool
    April 1, 2007

    Atheist in Illinois. I’m the only person I know at work who is open about it, but only in the sense that if one reads my blog long enough (and some of them do) they will figure it out. But I don’t have “atheist stuff” up on the walls of my office the way many others have religion stuff.

    Half the people I work with could be atheist and I wouldn’t know it.

    You’re probably right, Paul. I’m not hoping for everyone to be atheist so much as for everyone to be tolerant and to let science drive policy.

  7. #7 Jeff
    April 1, 2007

    Atheist in Northern Virginia. Plenty of religious folk here, and a healthy Korean Christian population, but it’s also no big deal being an atheist. Several of my friends are atheists. I’m sure it happens, but, I’ve personally seen no prejudice against atheists.

    Nice to meet you :)

  8. #8 z flynn
    April 1, 2007

    Well it would be nice, decrepitoldfool, if religiosity and those who worship it were tolerant of science or anything else that contradicts their beliefs (as most religions claim but it’s one of their great lies in practice) but I side with Richard Dawkins in that religiosity is the enemy of science as well as a great number of many other things, such as free speech, free thought, and just about any other personal freedom. The number one job of any practioner is to proselytize to not only convince new recruits but mostly to keep convincing themselves. Don’t forget religions are based on FAITH, a type of faith that is the opposite of rational thought. As well, the vast bulk of religions are comprised of mostly nonsensical stories that are usually very poor allegory and examples of commonly accepted and frequently practiced but nevertheless largely psychotic thinking, such as a “loving” god who will torture you for all eternity if you use his name in vain. (Calling him a ninny I guess?) No, relgion is a great lie in many ways but mostly in that is the number one excuse for people to justify and commit the most atrocious and brutal acts. Since it’s based on unprovable “faith” you can’t contradict one’s “faith” that the bible or koran or whatever “tells” them to kill all the jews or niggers or atheists or whoever does not give them carte blanche to take other’s property or control their lives or whatever they want even if it’s only to practice that great time honored sport of sadism. No, religion is the enemy of all except the “chosen” few in that specific religion. Dawkins is right, you can’t be a tolerant atheist and expect to coexist peacefully with religiosity. Nonsense, especially the most dangerous and deadly nonsense throughout history, cannot exist side by side with reason and scientific inquiry. If you remember your basic proofs from freshman logic it’s a mathematical impossiblity in both theory and practice.

  9. #9 The Ridger
    April 1, 2007

    Well, I rather doubt you do. I mean, there are over three hundred million people in the US, so that means… let me do the math … 3% of 300,000,000 … three million atheists. No. Wait. That would be 1%. Nine million atheists. That’s a lot for one person to know.

  10. #11 decrepitoldfool
    April 1, 2007

    z flynn: “religion is the enemy of all except the ‘chosen’ few in that specific religion.”

    OK, but that description is at odds with my experience of religious people. Should I condemn broad swatches of society based on a generalization, or should I go with my experience? Many people of faith strongly support the division between church and state. Oddly, that group strongly intersects with the group of religious people most concerned with doing good works – disaster relief, victim-offender reconciliation, etc. It’s worth making friends with them.

    Really it seems many atheists overestimate the persuasive quality of anger and vitriol.

  11. #12 GrrlScientist
    April 1, 2007

    a blog is a great way to know 9 million people!

  12. #13 z flynn
    April 1, 2007

    It’s not just a good idea, no longer just your civic duty but it’s now the LAW:

    http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0503/atheists.html

  13. #14 drcharles
    April 1, 2007

    Not only are atheists the minority, but they are also the most distrusted minority:

    “American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology.

    From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.

    Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher.”

    source: http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=releases&-lay=web&-format=umnnewsreleases/releasesdetail.html&ID=2816&-Find

  14. #15 llewelly
    April 1, 2007

    decrepitoldfool:

    z flynn: “religion is the enemy of all except the ‘chosen’ few in that specific religion.”

    OK, but that description is at odds with my experience of religious people.

    In the shyster theory of religion, the majority of religious people
    are victims, not enemies. They are not enemies of personal freedoms and good
    sense in their own right; rather, they are conned and manipulated into
    doing things contrary to maintainence of personal freedoms and good sense.

  15. #16 Alvaro
    April 1, 2007

    What I find most thought-provoking:
    “one-third (34 percent) of college graduates say they accept the Biblical account of creation as fact.”

    This is so easy to disprove-we are not doing something right.

  16. #17 Ex-drone
    April 1, 2007

    And yet, the fundies say that their vast majority is gravely endangered in the Culture War. I guess the atheists are punching above their weight.

  17. #18 decrepitoldfool
    April 1, 2007

    Llewelly, we’re not helping ourselves with broad generalizations and eye-for-eye strategy. Our status as the most distrusted minority rests in part on unrelenting display as provocateurs. As I used to tell my kids; “If you don’t like being treated as a stereotype, don’t act like one.” There is persuasive energy in confounding others’ negative expectations of you.

    Most of the religious people I know are not stupid, and are neither victims or enemies. They’re just people, many of whom believe as firmly as I do in keeping church and state apart. We can help un-con them with a little kindness and patience and refusal to fit the stereotype. They won’t become atheists, but they’ll see dominionists as a danger to faith, as well as to non-faith.

    I’m just suggesting more of a rhetorical nonviolence model to build support for science education and religion-neutral government. /end

  18. #19 z flynn
    April 1, 2007

    [What I find most thought-provoking:
    "one-third (34 percent) of college graduates say they accept the Biblical account of creation as fact."
    This is so easy to disprove-we are not doing something right.
    Posted by: Alvaro]

    Not a surprise to me unfortunately, having worked in and closely with Universities and other educational facilities I have seen the absolute decline in the field of education in the last twenty years and it had been on the decline for some time before then. US institutions of so-called higher learning have turned into what most things in the US have become in the last number of years: money making corporations. We graduate an alarming number of students who are nearly or absolutely functionally illiterate and they’re not just the sports players who have always been pushed through the system for the “good of the team”. For a number of years almost all universities, even the once prestigious Ivy League schools, have offered “remedial English” which was designed for the functionally illiterate. It’s actually been a bit of a farce in most cases. The applying student can’t pass the SATs with the minimum grades to get in so they have a “make-up” semester or year to compensate (and pay the full tuition, naturally) but many of these students still can’t read and certainly not write even after these courses but pretty much like the Special Olympics, if they all pay -er, play- they win, or in this case pass. This way the schools can claim they’re maintaining standards instead of just hustling bucks, which is what they’re really doing. Most people are shocked to hear that Harvard makes so much money off their investments that the INTEREST ALONE each year is more than ample to pay for 100% of all students’ tuition, room, board, books and even their beer and drugs if they’re so inclined. Does all this money go into improving the educational environment? Only a small percentage, much more of it goes to the fat cats on the various boards. The two top “investment consultants” for Harvard made 30 million dollar bonuses EACH a few years ago when I was involved with stock trading with them. Not bad to help “subsidize” Faust and Chaucer ET. al., wouldn’t you say? (Most schools don’t even teach these anymore, sadly, the great historical courses of study are frequently deemed “too difficult” and have become forgotten history.)

    The sadder fact is free speech is being greatly curtailed on campuses at the pretext of “not offending others”. Since when was an educational environment not suppose to be a huge marketplace, if you will, of free ideas and concepts used to generate further development of the educational horizons? What they’ve turned into is McDonaldland Universities, bland, flavorless, devoid of life, full of saturated fat and no longer trying to entice and improve the “brightest and best” but instead the greatest number of students (mostly mediocre and incompetent) to make more bucks for the board members and investors. Just like most other things in America even CHURCHES, it’s about the big hustle for the big buck. I met a man at a meeting a couple of years ago who was claiming to be a medical doctor and I thought he had to be joking because he was incapable of any speech beyond ebonics. Even medical terminology he used had been ebonized. He certainly was incapable of anything other than simple conversation. I found out later, to my horror, not only was he a doctor but an emergency room physician. He works in a less than desirable hospital for about half the wage that position paid less than ten years ago. I’ll bet you the corporate board members of the HMO have taken big salary INCREASES during that same period. Hmm, maybe there’s a pattern here, seems like the dumbing down of the population with their increasing religiosity, particularly fundamentalism and the dramatic rise in criminal profiteering are related somehow. Naaah, I’ll just turn on the television and stuff my face with junk food and my brain with worse and forget about it.

    (I’m kidding, I stopped watching TV years ago, happiest decision I made too.) Maybe I’ll see some of you at the library, if those too don’t become forgotten history in the near future.

  19. #20 TWins
    April 2, 2007

    I agree with a few posters above that one can view these results in a positive light. While only 3% of responders labeled themselves atheist, 6% said they “did not believe in God” — a percentage greater than the 5% who described themselves as Jewish, Muslim or another faith. And only 91% said they DID believe in God, which leaves an extra 3% who are… unsure, maybe? While certainly a minority, 6-9% of the U.S. population is nothing to sneeze at… and if some theist does so, why not be magnanimous and say, “God bless you.”

  20. #21 Bob
    April 2, 2007

    Didn’t it ever occur to you that God DID create the entire universe 5,000 years ago, but created it (with fossils and all) to LOOK AS IF it were billions of years older, JUST TO FOOL smartasses like you?

    You won’t feel so smart when you’re burning in hell, listening to those of us in heaven chanting “Nyah! Nyah! Nyah!”

  21. #22 biosparite
    April 2, 2007

    Bob,
    I have a feeling what you will really encounter is the following:

    God, A Poem

    A nasty surprise in a sandwich,
    A drawing-pin caught in your sock,
    The limpest of shakes from a hand which
    You’d thought would be firm as a rock,

    A serious mistake in a nightie,
    A grave disappointment all round
    Is all that you’ll get from th’Almighty,
    Is all that you’ll get underground.

    Oh he said: ‘If you lay off the crumpet
    I’ll see you alright in the end.
    Just hang on until the last trumpet.
    Have faith in me, chum-I’m your friend.’

    But if you remind him, he’ll tell you:
    ‘I’m sorry, I must have been pissed-
    Though your name rings a sort of a bell. You
    Should have guessed that I do not exist.

    ‘I didn’t exist at Creation,
    I didn’t exist at the Flood,
    And I won’t be around for Salvation
    To sort out the sheep from the cud-

    ‘Or whatever the phrase is. The fact is
    In soteriological terms
    I’m a crude existential malpractice
    And you are a diet of worms.

    ‘You’re a nasty surprise in a sandwich.
    You’re a drawing-pin caught in my sock.
    You’re the limpest of shakes from a hand which
    I’d have thought would be firm as a rock,

    ‘You’re a serious mistake in a nightie,
    You’re a grave disappointment all round-
    That’s all you are, ‘ says th’Almighty,
    ‘And that’s all that you’ll be underground.’

    1983

    James Fenton

  22. #23 z flynn
    April 2, 2007

    Bob above is typical of the fundamentalists, extremely limited intellectual capacity with the inability to understand simple scientific theorems such as carbon dating and incapable of realizing he’s buying into and utilizing a poorly constructed nonsensical fictitious fairy tale to hide his sadistic grandiosity and monumental intellectual shortcomings. Which is a trait quite universally shared by all in fundamentalist christianity, especially their so-called “loving” god, who else other than a completely psychotic and sadistic narcissist will burn you forever for not believing everything he wants you to believe? I mean come on, SERIAL KILLERS have more compassion than that, I think after a few thousand years even the worst serial killers would probably lose their zest for their vindictiveness. Someone also needs to tell them that a scientific theorem is something that is 100%provable in test after test after test in the real world, not a “faith” based idea. There are no “miracles” in science that can only be seen by those who squint right and really, really believe, such as an image of the “Virgin” Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich.

    We have to realize that the average person with an I.Q. of 100 is not particularly bright and that half of the world is stupider than that. So if you have any ability to put cohesive thoughts together you are always going to be vastly outnumbered by the dimwits. You see, decrepitoldfool, it may sound good to pretend everything’s going to be wonderful and we can all join hands and sing camp songs and that the vast majority will be tolerant if you just tolerate them but the sad fact is that most idiots don’t know they’re idiots. I mean come on, they believe such blatanly false nonsense with such an angry, righteous zeal, as all good christians are told to believe. Fundamentalist religious people are just that: radicals who will do anything including harm or kill others to prove the improvable so guess what, since it can’t be proven being nonsensical fiction, they will only be left with “defending their faith” (persecuting non-believers who are the “cause” for creating doubt. It’s not logic, no, faith “supersedes” logic, right?). This is why nonsensical religiosity will always be opposed to logic and science, when the cards are finally dealt only one can be true, so guess which one the “true believers” will try to eliminate? You have to learn to differentiate between the socially acceptable clichés and platitudes people say but never mean and what they really do. Just look at history and all the murders, persecutions, etc. all done in the name of the “true faith” to see reality. They ALL say the right things but almost never do them. The ones who supposedly really practice christian beliefs all the time are so rare they make saints out of them. And even those are often dubious. I read a book recently written by one of Mother Teresa’s former protégés that claims she was actually a cruel, angry woman who could have really helped those she supposedly was helping but let most of them suffer because it was “good for them”.

    Psychotic thinking is psychotic thinking, whether it be socially accepted psychosis (religion) or private held psychotic beliefs. And since psychotic reasonings are shakier than a house of cards in order to maintain their “credibility” the believers must stop anything that threatens their castles in the sky: logic, science, reasoning and those who denounce magical thinking.

    Poor Bob only embarrasses himself when he comes to a blog for those capable of rational thought. His intellectual limitations and raging emotionalism are obvious to all here except himself. I often feel sorry for those of his ilk, what empty lonely lives they must lead to resort to moronic fairy tales and to defend them so ragefully. To want those who disagree with you to burn for all eternity and laugh about it is quite mentally ill and one must live such a terrible life to find glee in the suffering of others. Isn’t ironic how I, an atheist, can express christian-style sympathy and yet the “true believers” seem to be incapable of it?

  23. #24 Bob
    April 2, 2007

    Hee hee…FYI I’m actually a lifelong atheist with a PhD in physics (did you really think a fundie would post something like that?) I just post here once in a while to test the lefty sense of humor…as usual it’s sadly lacking.

  24. #25 UK
    April 2, 2007

    Hi, I’m Robert. I don’t think we’ve met.

  25. #26 z flynn
    April 2, 2007

    Well touche, Bob but as you know full well fundamentalists really believe what you wrote and yes, they make those kind of statements frequently. It’s a lot like the one I hear a lot “oh, you’re an atheist. Why are you angry at god?” Nonsensical circular logic used as evidence to “prove” nonsensical circular logic. You don’t believe the bible is true, well if you need proof that it is, just read the bible. It would be a hoot if what you posted were an outrageous statement but unfortunately it is quite pedestrian for the fundamentalists. You must be one peculiar atheist to be unaware of such people and the fact that they are in serious positions of power, such as our esteemed President Bush whose “faith based initative” is heading us straight back to the direction of the Scopes Monkey Trial, which was ruled in favor of the fundamentalists, making it a crime to teach evolution but not creationism. I laugh at these kooks frequently and I didn’t take them seriously thirty years ago when the “moral majority”, which was neither at the time, became public. Well, they’re still not particularly moral but they have become the majority and if such a phenomenon does not alarm you, that is if you are indeed an atheist, and you don’t see horror in the dangerous nonsense this Christian Taliban want to enforce as law then you haven’t much justification to complain if you find that Rome has turned to ashes while you fiddled away. If you really think the fundies don’t believe and haven’t been saying such nonsense it might help to pay a little more attention to the world around you and less to being smug.

  26. #27 Bob
    April 3, 2007

    Worry about the snake-handlers if you want–I find this a little more threatening:

    GENEVA (AP) – Islamic countries pushed through a resolution at the U.N. Human Rights Council on Friday urging a global prohibition on the public defamation of religion–a response largely to the furor last year over caricatures published in a Danish newspaper of the Muslim Prophet Muhammad.

  27. #28 Brian
    April 3, 2007

    Re: biosparite

    The “diet of worms” was a particularly clever touch.

  28. #29 z flynn
    April 3, 2007

    We actually have the exact same thing here, with the recent chocolate jesus display (from Associated Press):

    The “My Sweet Lord” display was shut down by the hotel that houses the Lab Gallery in midtown Manhattan, said Matt Semler, the gallery’s creative director. Semler said he submitted his resignation after officials at the Roger Smith Hotel shut down the show.
    The six-foot sculpture was the victim of “a strong-arming from people who haven’t seen the show, seen what we’re doing,” Semler said. “They jumped to conclusions completely contrary to our intentions.”
    But word of the confectionary Christ infuriated Catholics, including Egan, who described it as “a sickening display.” Bill Donohue, head of the watchdog Catholic League, said it was “one of the worst assaults on Christian sensibilities ever.”
    The artist and gallery director both received numerous death threats promting officials to order the show closed.

    Slightly more threatening than snake handling if you ask me. I like how the official’s solutions is not to go after the people that made the death threats but rather to close the show: cave in to the religious fanaticals pyschotic and criminal demands.
    Oh, and as far as advancing the educational system, evangelicals in Cobb County Georgia pushed for and succeeded in having creatinoist “science” taught side by side in the PUBLIC schools. Many of the teachers there, evangelical christians themselves said “off the record” they intend to not teach the “godless evolution” at all now. And people have the gall to wonder why our educational system is failing.
    The radical muslims have been around for, well pretty much ever and there has been severe religious sponsored violence and entire states are run by religious leaders while the non-believers cower (and are executed) in fear. But don’t worry, these “snake handlers” here in our own house want to eventually have their version of a “righteous christian nation”. I’m a little more worried about my own disappearing freedoms and the devlopment of the evangelical’s (and other christian’s) wet dream taking place here and now rather then the sectarian violence that has never left a huge part of the rest of the world. I know America always wants to be number one but the only one we seem to be really excelling in lately is religious fanatacism. That’s a whole lot more relative and pressing to our crumbling bill of rights than the Jihadists who have been doing their deadly deeds in countries that never had a bill of rights.

  29. #30 Bob
    April 3, 2007

    A few Christian wackos threaten to kill people. Thousands (millions?) of Jihadists are ready and eager to actually do it.

    That’s a whole lot more relative and pressing to our crumbling bill of rights than the Jihadists who have been doing their deadly deeds in countries that never had a bill of rights.

    Google 9/11.

    In the list of threats we face, I’d say creationism in the schools is pretty far down the list.

  30. #31 z flynn
    April 3, 2007

    Well, Bob, we could continue this discussion ad nauseum but I think your political agenda has become quite clear and it’s obvious we will disagree. I am not in favor of expanding America’s Miltiary Industrial Complex, nor their criminal profiteering in munitions and militarial support industries as well as in conjunction with expanding multi-national corporate interests by force but frankly these issues were not my reason for attending this blog as it’s a blog about SCIENCE and the dangers it faces in our country today, not proporting right wing propaganda. If you’re really interested in seeing beyond the political and quite disengenuous catch phrases such as “they hate us for our freedom” watch “Why We Fight” by Charlotte Street. You can see it for free at google video. Pretty interesting and one of the best documentaries about the Military Industrial Complex, opening with President Dwight D. Eisenhower’s (a republican and a general) farewell address, warning us of the “grave dangers” with our expanding Miltiary Industrial Complex. But, quite frankly, I think like the evangelicals, you won’t be interested in anything that can refute your beliefs, otherwise why would you even bother to come trolling around a board about science to bring up a political agenda?

    You’re welcome to your beliefs and belief system, actually I’m fully aware that even if you change your mind, along with hundreds of thousands of other people it really would not stop the Military Industrial Complex as it’s driven by the two greatest unifying factors: greed and a need to feel superior to others (which is really not real self-esteem but comes from deep rooted feelings of inferiority), this latter cause one of the strong roots of fundamentalist religion. Which I find ironic that people said religious fundamentalists caused 9/11 so the solution is to become more religiously fundamentalist ourselves. That makes real sense.

    Regardless, this really is a board about SCIENCE and, specifically the expansion of it. It’s very cute for you to come here and dismiss the fact that there are millions of evangelicals who want to call religiosity science and to ban real science, but it is, after all what this board is about. It’s really not a place for trolls to come and to see if they can rattle around and turn it into a forum for their own agenda.

    Have a good life.

  31. #32 GrrlScientist
    April 3, 2007

    z flynn; i was tempted to write something about “my sweet lord” flap, but just didn’t get around to doing so — but i thought that was very threatening to see god fearing people sending death threats to the figure’s creator and to the hotel owner (where the chocolate jesus was displayed for a short time) — and they say that “god is love.” haha, please. they also say that “by their works ye shall know them.” i think we all know them a little too well.

  32. #33 z flynn
    April 3, 2007

    You’re absolutely right, GrrlScientist, not very christian wouldn’t you say? Actually, it is more like the real christians than they’d ever admit. Once you start accepting delusions in your life it becomes non-stop. That’s what’s so dangerous about religiosity, poorly conceived bad fictions that are so absurd you can believe the most asinine lies to justify the most atrocious behaviors such as killing in the name of love, etc. But what do you expect from those whose deity is an all powerful vengeful, sadistic, psychotic egomaniac? And he’s considered the best there is, yikes!
    What disturbs me the most about the story is not so much the religious kooks, although I will never fully understand their murderous rage to supposedly justify the validity of their delusional fairy tales. What bothers me the most is how America, even cynical and hard New York City, caves in to these fruit cakes. Where’s the police chief and mayor standing before the press stating clearly that any death threats or violent actions against citizens involved in a lawful display of art is a terrorist act and will be dealt with severely and quickly? Is the ACLU the only organization that is keeping us from effectively turning into a Christian Taliban state? If so, even they will probably eventually cave in if no one in the government or legal sector will step in to help. The separation of church and state is not becoming blurred, it’s becoming nonexistent. America is in serious, serious trouble if this religious agenda is allowed to effectively be enforced. Habeas Corpus was killed not too long ago, I guess the Constitution and Bill of Rights are going to have all the value of toilet paper if America doesn’t wake up soon.
    Oh well, maybe I shouldn’t mince around so much and come more to the point next time. :^)

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