While I'm back on the subject of autism, I thought I'd post this video that Kevin Leitch created while I was on vacation and posted to YouTube. Let's just say that it takes a rather dim view of autism "advocates," particularly the autism=mercury poisoning crowd.
I particularly love the picture of J. B. Handley that Kev found. It's also amusing to note that J. B. made an appearance in the comments of Kev's post, and he was not pleased. Also, if you're wondering what the whole "Illuminati" thing is about, Kev explains here.
Not to be outdone, Autism Diva produced her own contribution (below the fold):
Very creepy. It has an X-Files feel to it.
JB's trailer was obviously much better than Kev's cheesy "You Tube" video. Interestingly, JB didn't need to resort to taking people's comments out of context or using personal attacks to show his side of the story. When you have the truth on your side, you don't need to do that. Kev, on the other hand, had to resort to personal attacks because that is all he has... and of course, those are distorted. Kev, where are your safety reports of thimerosal? Your video would have been better had it been able to answer some basic questions about thimerosal safety or such. Can you get that in your next production?
Hey, it's not easy to cram multiple vaccine and autism studies into a 4 minute video.
Besides, there are such things as legitimate ad homenims: If a person is completely insane, I think that's enough to question the validity of his "research".
Of course, if you'd like to provide those quotes in context, go ahead. I'm sure doing that would make them even worse.
And while we're at it, why don't you post some evidence showing a thimerosal-autism link? I've been waiting for someone to do that for months, now. I just get doggerel.
"Common Sense,"
Oh, please. Give me a break. I've pointed out evidence time and time again that neither thimerosal nor MMR vaccine exposure is associated with autism or ASDs. I pointed out Search this blog and my old blog (http://oracknows.blogspot.com) for "autism," "Geiers," "Wakefield," if you don't believe me. The evidence is overwhelming that thimerosal-containing vaccines are not associated with autism.
Hi Sue - what personal attacks are those? What context do you think justifies a belief that Black Helicopters staffed by the Illuminati are keeping tabs on you and your friends?
I await the next thiomerol poisoning epidemic in North America with bated breath - I better make sure my Illuminati membership dues are paid so that the Black Helicopters don't land and vaccinate my pets with microchips .
Fnord:
http://www.sjgames.com/illuminati/
Played that game even before the company was raided by the Secret Service: http://www.sjgames.com/SS/
Orac wrote:
"I pointed out Search this blog and my old blog (http://oracknows.blogspot.com) for "autism," "Geiers," "Wakefield," if you don't believe me. The evidence is overwhelming that thimerosal-containing vaccines are not associated with autism".
Orac, I know that your a doctor of some sort. I suppose that by virtue of that you feel like your opinions mean more? I beg to differ. You are no different from anyone else. In fact, at times I believe that your "opinions" mean less than most people. This is because you would tend to see things from a doctors point of view. You will see the 95% (or whatever the percentage may be) who do fine with vaccinations. You will listen to your "doctor" friends and ignore the rest.
If you really are interested, how about starting to work with children with autism? Do you have any experience with that? No, I don't mean becoming a DAN! doctor (I know better than that). I mean actually working with children with autism who have bowel problems, food allergies, etc.? Not all do have these issues but certainly there are enough for you to work with. Why don't you do it? You may gain some credibility that way.
Kev wrote:
"Hi Sue - what personal attacks are those? What context do you think justifies a belief that Black Helicopters staffed by the Illuminati are keeping tabs on you and your friends"?
The point is, Kev, you have no "meat" in your cute "You Tube" video. It is pure fluff. Where is your research? Where are your studies which indicate that thimerosal is/was a safe and effective preservative to be put in childhood vaccinations? I see that someone from the UK went on tv the other day to spout off about how 10,000 vaccines would be ok to inject into babies (per Paul Offit). Don't believe them, Kev. It isn't true. Have you gotten the Prevnar yet for your kids? If not, why not?
Kev, you used to be so interested in "the science". Now, not so much. Hummmm. Interesting.
"Common Sense"
So, if I can clarify this in my head, a person who spends perhaps a decade of their life studying how to diagnose and treat disease - including perhaps one of the harder things, when NOT to treat - should be disregarded when it comes to a question of the cause of an illness.
That's really stupid.
Take me. Now, I'm a qualified petroleum geologist. Let's imagine you were going invest $100 million in a new oil well. Would you (a) Base the drilling location on my 'opinion', based on interpretation of seismic records, geochemistry, gravity surveys et. al, or (b) Base it oin the opinion of a guy with a devining rod? By your logic, it would be (b) every time..
"Orac, I know that your a doctor of some sort. I suppose that by virtue of that you feel like your opinions mean more? I beg to differ. You are no different from anyone else. In fact, at times I believe that your "opinions" mean less than most people."
Sue, stop staying really stupid things and actually READ what Orac wrote on the subject. Oh wait, saying stupid things is patently impossible for you.
"Take me. Now, I'm a qualified petroleum geologist. Let's imagine you were going invest $100 million in a new oil well. Would you (a) Base the drilling location on my 'opinion', based on interpretation of seismic records, geochemistry, gravity surveys et. al, or (b) Base it oin the opinion of a guy with a devining rod? By your logic, it would be (b) every time.."
I am not familiar with a devining rod. However, I am going to assume that it may not be an accurate measure/ relied upon method of determining a drilling location? Please advise if this is not accurate. In this case, your comparison lacks common sense. I have no doubt that Orac is skilled and smart enough to talk about his own "expertise". As far as I know, his "expertise" does not include treating or even working with/dealing with children with autism. Specifically, children who may suffer with bowel issues, food allergies, etc. Therefore, his opinion is his opinion. It is not based upon reality. This is why I would suggest that he starts working with this population, so that he can gain some credibility in that department. That sounds fair, doesn't it?
Mouse wrote:
"Sue, stop staying really stupid things and actually READ what Orac wrote on the subject. Oh wait, saying stupid things is patently impossible for you".
Well, what exactly has Orac written where he has been the lead or has been able to use his "medical mind" for something? From the looks of it, Orac posts studies from other sources (at times not even good ones). He also points out when Kathleen or Kev blog about something. He's been know to get "guest" writers do his dirty work (such as the Danish studies). So, what has he written specifically that you wish me to read? This is not meant as an attack on Orac it's just that he doesn't seem to be much of an expert here yet some of you seem to suggest that he is.
"The point is, Kev, you have no "meat" in your cute "You Tube" video. It is pure fluff."
Odd. In your first comment you said the point was that I had levelled personal attacks on people and taken their quotes out of context. I'll ask you once more to back those statements up.
"Where is your research? Where are your studies which indicate that thimerosal is/was a safe and effective preservative to be put in childhood vaccinations?"
Nowhere. This video wasn't about that. Where are your studies to back up your claim that thiomersal causes autism?
"Kev, you used to be so interested in "the science". Now, not so much. Hummmm. Interesting."
Still am Sue but when discussing kooky beliefs and bad attitudes to autism science isn't really the subject.
I am stuck on dial up so the vids aren't easily accessible to me even though I am in Portland.
Sorry to marr you blog with another inane comment after a few weeks rest, but:
Did Common Sense have to pick that name in order to try to legitimize the craziness that precedes that signature on each post?
"Odd. In your first comment you said the point was that I had levelled personal attacks on people and taken their quotes out of context".
Right. I consider that "fluff". What's your problem again?
"Still am Sue but when discussing kooky beliefs and bad attitudes to autism science isn't really the subject".
Kev, science is ALWAYS the subject when reasonable people debate the issue. When you have to resort to personal attacks with no "meat", you are losing the argument.
"Sorry to marr you blog with another inane comment after a few weeks rest".
That's quite all right, Epador.
CS:
You seem to have missed part of kev's post:
Where are your studies to back up your claim that thiomersal causes autism?
Answer that is you want to be taken seriously.
Kind of reminds me of those nuts at Loose Change, the 9/11 conspiracy nuts. They whine when skeptics post clips of them spouting vitrol and general nuttery, and expect us to change our minds because we used a few probably legitimate ad homenims as well as logical arguments.
And they remain silent when it comes to evidence of their insane hypotheses.
Oh, and Sue, would you provide the context for the quotes you're saying were taken out of context, too? It's not much of a complaint if the quotes remain true to their intent.
"CS:
You seem to have missed part of kev's post:
Where are your studies to back up your claim that thiomersal causes autism?
Answer that is you want to be taken seriously".
Missed part of Kev's post? That is far from the case, Andrew. Apparently you are new here and/or naive. Kev knows where to find any/all of the studies that I have which indicate a need for more research to be done due to their implication of vaccines (specifically thimerosal-containing) and autism and/or immune system dysfunction. It would be a waste of my time to reference them again. Kev knows that.
If, however, Kev (or yourself) is interested in showing some studies (not bogus ones) which indicate the safety of thimerosal injected into babies that would be most appreciated. Perhaps a new guy (like yourself) would have better luck finding these studies which just have to be there somewhere considering the fact that this substance was injected into infants. I mean, I can't imagine that a pharma company and/or a governmental agency would allow a known neurotoxin to be injected into babies UNLESS it had been adequately tested for safety. The studies must be there. Help me to find them.
p.s. Don't waste too much time on the above request...
CS:
This seems to be the sort of thing:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&li…
Where are your studies to back up your claim that thiomersal causes autism?
Problem is that Sue dismisses all peer-review literature as a big pharma conspiracy. I've tried to explain some basic toxicology to you Sue, you just claim you can't read all that science stuff without falling asleep. If a I gave you the references about real, documented Hg poisoning, would you read them? Or the studies where they measured the blood-levels of ethylmercury after vacination and found it clears quickly? You prefer to flit in like the Jessica Simpson of the Hg brigade with such insights as
'Orac, I know that your a doctor of some sort.'
'I am not familiar with a devining rod. However, I am going to assume that it may not be an accurate measure/ relied upon method of determining a drilling location? Please advise if this is not accurate.'
Quick Sue, is Chicken of the Sea chicken or tuna?
Orac is the guy who told me that chelation was the proper treatment for mercury poisoning. Autistic kids are being cured of autism with chelation yet Orac claims that mercury poisoning is not autism. Is the chelation repairing bad genes or is it casting out demons to repair these children? I think we deserve an explanbation of what is curing these kids from this doctor who claims that mercury poisoning and autism are not related.
"CS:
This seems to be the sort of thing:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&li…
Where are your studies to back up your claim that thiomersal causes autism"?
Andrew,
Right here you have just pointed out that you are in WAY over your head. You have just begun. Keep digging. The above is just one of a few completely bogus Danish studies. Hence, my comment about not wishing to see "bogus studies". The sad part is you didn't even realize that these studies are in fact bogus. Anyone here with common sense and who have been here for awhile know that. In fact, when you posted this abstract chances are they all sighed collectively. They know, Andrew, and you will too if you hang in there and do your homework. Try again.
CS:
I see no reason why these studies are bogus.
Where are your studies to back up your claim that thiomersal causes autism?
Andy
Translation: There's no point arguing about it, since you can take CS's word for it that those studies actually exist, and there's no need for you to interpret them, since he's already done that job for you. Also, CS wants to just shout at us and hope that convinces some people, because the common man responds to circular propagandistic innuendo, and not scientifically gathered evidence.
Safety studies: I don't know about Kev, but I don't claim that thimerosal is safe. I just support the null hypothesis that it doesn't cause autism.
Oh, and for convenience:
Divining rod: Used in dowsing. Alternative methods include pendulums, forked sticks, and psychic powers. Started out mostly as a method to find water to drill wells (easy, since most [85%?] of the land out there has groundwater at drillable distances), and expanded to cover precious metals, gems, and oil. Some even feature computer chips hot-glued into them.
"Problem is that Sue dismisses all peer-review literature as a big pharma conspiracy".
Not true, Ruth. The obviously bogus ones, yes, I will dismiss... Shouldn't I?
"Quick Sue, is Chicken of the Sea chicken or tuna"?
Cute, Ruth. However, even Ms. Jessica Simpson would know that injecting babies with a neurotoxin is a very bad idea. Go ahead, ask her. You and the majority of your crew haven't caught on to that yet.
The most toxic substance on the planet, botulism toxin, is diluted and injected into people (Botox). In the same way, very dilute solutions with thiomersal may be safely injected, especially as the half-life is about 8 days. Concentrated ethyl Hg kills cells, concentrated botulism kills people. Dose makes the poison.
"CS:
I see no reason why these studies are bogus.
Where are your studies to back up your claim that thiomersal causes autism"?
Amdy,
Stop digging yourself into a bigger hole. This abstract that you present is fatally flawed by design. Everyone here with common sense knows that. I assure you. You see no reason why it is bogus because you haven't done any research. You have just happened here somehow and you THINK you know something. You don't.
Here's a test. Any of you here want to agree with me that the Danish studies aren't worth the paper they are written on? We should soon find out if we have anyone with common sense or honesty here.
Water is a known neurotoxin when you drink enough to dilute your electrolytes (Hyponatremia). Therefore, we should be against injecting anything that contains water into kids.
"In the same way, very dilute solutions with thiomersal may be safely injected, especially as the half-life is about 8 days. Concentrated ethyl Hg kills cells, concentrated botulism kills people. Dose makes the poison".
What dose of thimerosal is safe to be injected into babies, Ruth? Studies please.
Perhaps you'd like to hold our hands and tell us how it's flawed, rather than simply assert it? Kind of like how this one guy told us what specifically was wrong with one of Skeptico's blog posts.
Shifting burden of proof. Perhaps you'd like to tell us when it becomes toxic in the manner you describe (causing autism)?
"Water is a known neurotoxin when you drink enough to dilute your electrolytes (Hyponatremia). Therefore, we should be against injecting anything that contains water into kids".
Why do we always have to come back to this "water" debate. It is so boring. We just went over this somewhat recently with "Dr. Steve". It's irrelevant because of course we are not injecting tiny babies with large amounts of water. In fact, I just recently heard a warning about not allowing your babies to drink even a relatively small amount of water. So there we have it: water, dangerous... thimerosal, so very safe.
"Shifting burden of proof. Perhaps you'd like to tell us when it becomes toxic in the manner you describe (causing autism)"?
Nope. I would prefer to hear about when the dose becomes toxic from Ruth. She seems to be an expert.
Are you unable to grasp such a simple analogy? I'm exposing your perverse absolutist logic for what it is. The dose makes the poison.
If you don't know when the thimerosal becomes toxic, you can't say that it's toxic in the amounts given.
Great. You make a claim, and you want someone else to provide evidence for the null hypothesis. It's your job as the advocate to falsify the null hypothesis. You're just like Sylvia Browne.
"If you don't know when the thimerosal becomes toxic, you can't say that it's toxic in the amounts given".
Water, dangerous. Thimerosal, safe. That's all we need to know from you. By the way, who is working on the Lupron studies? I need 100 peer reviewed studies, double blinded which show that Lupron is dangerous (in the amounts given to children with autism) before I will believe that there is the possibility that it could be dangerous at all. Can anyone get me those studies, please. Otherwise, every autistic child (with or without tests to determine need) should be given a large dose of Lupron... Just in case.
Sue again with the Danish studies... That's her broken record, kind of like JBJr's "75 year olds with autism". There are not only 2 Danish studies Sue. There's Fombonne's study out of Canada, which looks very solid. There's the CDDS data, with a huge sample of children, plain for anyone to verify and interpret. For that matter, the criticism of the Danish studies does not really invalidate those studies. They just mention possible cofounds that should be taken into account.
Joseph wrote:
"Sue again with the Danish studies..."
Hi Joe,
I was just trying to be helpful to your friend, Andrew. He's the one who brought up the stellar Danish studies. Apparently, he fell for them hook, line and sinker. This is the problem. People who know nothing about the controversy do a quick google search or go to the cdc website and at first glance are taken in by the allure of the Danish studies. It's rather sheeplike.
"For that matter, the criticism of the Danish studies does not really invalidate those studies. They just mention possible cofounds that should be taken into account".
Try doing that, Joseph. Try to take into account ALL the various issues with the study and make sense of it. Until you do that, the studies remain bogus. Don't they?
The EPA revised the reference dose for methylmercury to 0.1 ug/kg/day, while the WHO uses 0.47 ug/kg/day. This dose is meant to be the no adverse events dose from a lifetime chronic exposure. The methylmercury poisoning in Iraq in the 1970's indicates the first effects (numbness in the extemities) occured at about 500ug/kg. Consider that thiomersal is ethylmercury, with a T1/2 of 6.9 day vs 19.1 days for methylmercury.
Yes, large doses of thiomersal can be toxic, as medical cases of poisoning in the literature indicate. Alkylmercury affects very defined brain regions, including the visual lobe and the granular cells of the cerebellum. Autistic brains show differences in other regions.
If mercury causes autism, Japan and Iraq should have very high numbers of autistics due to exposure of large numbers of children to methylmercury in these countries. I haven't seen any reported increase in autism. Iraq showed an increase in cerebal palsay and other neurological disorders for those exposed to very high levels of Hg.
Autism appears to affect the structure of the entire brain, which would only occur early in development. Exposure to valproic acid and German meases in the first trimester can result in autism. Exposure to a neurotoxin at 1 month or 1 day would not result in re-organization of the brain. No neurotoxin can produce savant syndrome. The best evidence is that autism is probably mostly genetic, with some due to pre-natal toxin exposure.
Until you do that, the studies remain bogus. Don't they?
Criticism of one of the studies brings up an important point. From what I saw, criticism of the other Danish study does not, however. I any case, it won't do you much good to dwell on Denmark, when there's a lot of other stuff out there.
This paper has a good analysis of Blaxill's California graph (which I criticize in my latest post) in addition to graphs from Denmark and Sweden. So we have not only Denmark, but Sweden, Canada, the UK, and the CDDS (not published, but easily verifiable). There's an IOM report. There's quite a bit against a link.
What epidemiology is there in favor a link? Only Blaxill's California graph from a presentation he did, which is easily shown to be bogus, and many salami publications by Geier & Geier, again repeatedly shown to be amateurish, flawed and perhaps more. Geier & Geier, of course, can't be trusted for well known reasons.
So in terms of epidemiology I think it's fair to say there is nothing of substance in favor of the thimerosal hypothesis. Would you agree Sue?
Ruth it always concerns me when people try to use the methlymercury analogy to the ethlymercury conversation. The fact is you really don't know the effects of ethlymercury, do you? Never mind the fact that Burbacher should have forced you to re-evaluate your ideas about how quickly each form of mercury leaves the body.
Let me give you a quick analogy to your post. I can't recall where this came up or who it was with but anyone can pipe up if they remember the conversation and it was different than I remember it as. A while back I was having this sort of discussion between the two forms of mercury with someone (it was a woman). She brought up the analogy of wood grain alcohol vs. the alcohol contained in your average alcoholic beverage. See, she claimed, one is safe to drink and one could kill you if you drank it. She was feeling pretty good about herself UNTIL the inevitable happened. I crushed her like a grape. Of course any nitwit knows that if you drink too much "regular alcohol" when you are pregnant you can, in fact, poison your own child which in turn could lead to Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. So, yes of course grain alcohol may be more dangerous to drink but neither is good for a developing fetus or newborn. I'm not sure what would happen to your average 2 month old baby if that baby was forced to drink large quantities of beer (as an example). Something tells me, it wouldn't be good.
So go ahead and continue to compare apples to oranges if you want to ... I choose to ignore that type of comparison.
The difference is a glass of wood alcohol can make you blind, while it takes much more ethyl alcohol to harm you. Actually, one antidote for wood alcohol poisoning is giving ethyl alcohol-it ties up the enzyme that converts wood alcohol to the actual toxin (some of you saw this in a House episode). One carbon makes the difference for a known carcinogen, benzene and a fairly safe solvent, toluene. It once again comes down to dose and timing. A kid who drinks will get drunk, maybe have liver damage and real social problems, but will not retroactively develop FAS. In neuroanatomy, we studied an adult alcoholic's brain-a big void in the middle where neurons had died, but not the same as FAS.
You can have a fatal car crash driving at 50 mph, but the odds of a bad result go up if you drive 120 mph.
"The difference is a glass of wood alcohol can make you blind, while it takes much more ethyl alcohol to harm you".
Ok. However, BOTH can cause significant damage (especially to a fetus or infant).
"One carbon makes the difference for a known carcinogen, benzene and a fairly safe solvent, toluene".
I'll have to trust you on that, Ruth. The problem is... it is irrelevant to the discussion. Unless of course you could prove to me that thimerosal was "safe". Obviously, you can't.
It seems that I made an error in judgment in even bringing up the alcohol discussion. Now, we could go back and forth on the issues of alcohol damage... I'm not interested in that.
The two things we have learned. 1) You cannot prove that thimerosal (ethlymercury) is safe. 2) Both ethlymercury and methlymercury can cause damage but you have no idea of the type of damage that ethylmercury could cause. So you are leaving it up to... I just don't believe that it's dangerous.
I'll leave you with a Boyd Haley quote which works very well here. He said:
"It was some time ago I made a comment in a conference when I told somebody I felt like I had been in an eight-year argument with the town drunk regarding mercury exposures and mercury toxicity. Now we can expand that out. It's been another six years on top of that, so 14 years of arguing with people that don't understand chemistry and use absurd arguments in court".
Thank God, Haley has some common sense.
"Right. I consider that "fluff". What's your problem again?"
Oh dear. Still having trouble with this I see.
1) You say I have engaged in personal attacks and taken quotes out of context. OK, fine. You're entitled to that opinion but I'm afraid if you want people who think to take you seriously, bald assertion won't cut it. All I'm asking is that you back up your allegations. Three times I've asked you now - why can't you do it?
"Kev, science is ALWAYS the subject when reasonable people debate the issue. When you have to resort to personal attacks with no "meat", you are losing the argument."
No Sue, autism advocacy is not a matter of science. Not being parent to an autistic child I don't expect you to understand that. 'The issue' in the video, and is Orac's subsequent post was the bizarre conspiracy theory laden beliefs and general bad attitudes to autism professed by the people in it. Not the scientific basis for autism.
If people want to read about the science of autism, then there's a wealth of information in other places on Orac's blog, on my blog, on NM's blog, on Diva's blog....
When will you learn that you don't set the agenda anywhere except in your own head Sue?
Thimerosal is toxic.
The question is what dose can the body accept without adverse reaction (exceeding the biological threshold). The body can cope with many toxins if the dose does not exceed the biological threshold.
Toxicity can be measured by the effects on the target (organism, organ, or tissue). Because individuals typically have different levels of response to the same dose of a toxin, a population-level measure of toxicity is often used which relates the probability of an outcome for a given individual in a population. One such measure is the LD50, "LD" standing for "lethal dose", which is a concentration measure for a toxin at which fifty-percent of the members of an exposed population dies from exposure (IVN-MUS LD50 30 mg kg-1 for thimerosal). When such data does not exist, estimates are made by comparison to known similar toxic things, or to similar exposures in similar organisms. Then "safety factors" must be built in to protect against the uncertainties of such comparisons, in order to improve protection against these unknowns.
In a host with an intact immune system the inherent toxicity of the organism is balanced by the host's ability to fight back; the effective toxicity is then a combination of both parts of the relationship.
It is a well established fact that mercury is a powerful neurotoxin; how the mercury in thimerosal is absorbed or metabolized in the human body is less well known. Thimerosal itself provides no direct benefit to the person receiving a vaccine. It does however protect the vaccine recipient by reducing the likelihood of microbial contamination of multi-dose vials. The use of single dose vials largely eliminates the need to use preservatives such as thimerosal.
Since thimerosal is a known neurotoxin and how the mercury in thimerosal is absorbed or metabolizes in the human body is less well known (this is for individuals that have an "intact immune system").
What is know about individuals who do not have an "intact immune system"? Obviously, even less.
Single dose vaccines or a safer preservative seems like a sensible way forward.
Wow, impressive grasp of toxicology you have there. Next time you may want to credit your source so you won't be accused of plagiarism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic
Ok. However, BOTH can cause significant damage (especially to a fetus or infant).
Mind if I see some evidence to back up this assertion? Specifically, evidence that thimerosal in the quantities present in vaccines can cause significant damage. And then, evidence that this damage is what causes autism would be nice, too. Even a study simply showing that the prevalence of autism among children injected with thimerosal-containing vaccines is significantly higher than the prevalence of autism in other children would suffice.
I did some brief checks on my own, but I can't seem to find any studies showing these. It would be nice if you could point some out. I have, however, seen a fair number of studies and statistics (such as the prevalence of autism in countries compared to whether or not they use thimerosal) that would convince me otherwise. Even if all of these are "bogus," I would still like to see some "non-bogus" studies showing that your claim is true.
Clone3g
I wouldn't say that was an "impressive grasp of toxicology" and I never said that was my own work.
And your point is?
kevin_1000,
Which part of your comment is your own words?
Thimerosal is toxic. The FDA have suggested that it would be prudent to lower the levels/cumulative levels of thimerosal in vaccines (they made the boo boo in the first place by overlooking the cumulative dose levels).
Thimerosal needs to be proven safe, not unsafe. There has not been enough studies to conclusively prove the safety of thimerosal and dosage in the light of the increasing autism statistics.
Since the rise in autism statistics and the similarities between mercury poisoning traits and autism traits, who would blame a parent if they decided to give thimerosal vaccines a miss, just to err on the side of caution.
It would be disadvantageous for the government to stop using thimerosal as it would cost them millions to change to single vile vaccines. They are happy to live with any fallout statistics that don't fit "the norm" e.g. vaccines can kill, the statistic is a high one but nevertheless it does happen.
Clone3g AKA The Oracle
"Which part of your comment is your own words?"
You seem to be caught up in the fact that I've quoted without giving the source or link. Does that really matter?
Shouldn't you be looking at what's actually written instead of worrying where it came from?
Everyone's knowledge is secondhand, apart from yours it would seem.
Thanks for clarifying. I just wanted to know which part was copied and pasted, which parts were verifiable, and which parts were merely your opinions. You could have saved yourself some time if you simply said "the fact free parts are my own."
Unless of course you can provide anything resembling evidence to support your statements.
Let's start with "thimerosal is toxic."
It's on the label of the bottle, clone.
kevin_1000: It's on the label of the bottle, clone.
Awesome. OK, what about neomycin. Toxic or non-toxic?
Don't tell me, you thought thimerosal wasn't toxic...LOL
Clone3g
Why don't you check the label? It's generally a good indication.
kevin_1000: Don't tell me, you thought thimerosal wasn't toxic...LOL
I didn't share my thoughts. You are the one claiming it is toxic and your statement was unconditional which means you are saying it is always toxic.
Why don't you check the label? It's generally a good indication.
So you can't answer? Is it or isn't it?
"I didn't share my thoughts. You are the one claiming it is toxic and your statement was unconditional which means you are saying it is always toxic."
I didn't share my thoughts... What sort of lame excuse is that? You've tied yourself up with your own psuedo bull.
Yes. Thimerosal is always toxic: always was, always will be. Can you prove otherwise?
"So you can't answer? Is it or isn't it?"
This sounds a little bit like Monty Python and the Holy Grail:
What is the average flight speed of the African swallow? (chuckle)
Give me a good reason why I should answer and I may consider it? What do you think it is?
Yes. Thimerosal is always toxic: always was, always will be. Can you prove otherwise?
If it is always toxic, every single person exposed to thimerosal should experience toxic effects. Since that doesn't appear to be the case, I'll present that as my proof.
Quite obviously it can be toxic, nearly anything can be toxic, but that is not quite the same thing is it?
Show me evidence that thimerosal in vaccines has been toxic to anyone, never mind that it causes mercury poisoning.
You are missing the point by a few million miles.
I'll spell it out for you. Anyone who is injected with thimerosal is exposing themselves to a toxic substance. The studies to prove that it is safe are not conclusive. This substance is a neurotoxin. The negative side affects may be that your IQ drops by 10. It may be that you contract Alzheimers. It may cause ASD. I can't prove these, but they can't be disproved either. What I'm saying is, err on the side of caution and give it a miss.
As you are keen on facts, here are a few:
Thimerosal is toxic:
fact.
Increase in dose of Thimerosal:
fact.
Autism statistic have risen:
fact.
Mercury poisoning traits are similar to autistic traits: fact.
Vaccines can kill.
fact
A little bit of common sense and deduction would alert parents to a possible link between thimerosal and autism which would be enough to raise doubts about thimerosal in vaccines.
Thimerosal is toxic:
fact.
Not a fact. It can be toxic at a high enough concentration.
Increase in dose of Thimerosal:
fact.
Right up to the point where it wasn't used any more. Dramatic decrease in total thimerosal for the last 6-7 years?
Autism statistic have risen:
fact.
Umm...right.
Mercury poisoning traits are similar to autistic traits: fact.
Ummm...no.
Vaccines can kill.
fact
Right, and that's relevant to autism how?
Fact: You should check your definition of the word fact.
Without evidence, you're acting like Aristotle, who claimed that heavy objects would always fall faster because it made sense. Science isn't done in the mind; it's done in the field.
Anyways, onto some analysis of your points:
Thimerosal is toxic:
fact.
Tons of things are toxic in the right doses, but this doesn't mean they aren't harmless or even helpful in smaller doses. This point is thus irrelevant.
Vaccines can kill.
fact
Also irrelevant. We aren't talking about the potentially fatal effects of vaccines in general here, we're talking about the effects of thimerosal in vaccines.
Mercury poisoning traits are similar to autistic traits: fact.
Let's see, from ASTDR, "[Effects of mercury poisoning] include personality changes (irritability, shyness, nervousness), tremors, changes in vision (constriction (or narrowing) of the visual field), deafness, muscle incoordination, loss of sensation, and difficulties with memory."
Autistics, according to Wikipedia have "markedly abnormal social interaction, communication ability, patterns of interests, and patterns of behavior."
Maybe a few similarities, but if autism is caused by mercury poisoning, why don't we also see deafness and memory problems among autistics?
This leaves the following two points:
Increase in dose of Thimerosal:
fact.
Autism statistic have risen:
fact.
Over time, a lot of factors either rise or fall, allowing time to be a confounding factor showing a correlation between any two variables. I could use the same logic to show that the decline of piracy on the high seas is responsible for the greater number of natural disasters in recent years. (Of course, causation would be a bit more logical if your other arguments held, but they don't.)
Thimerosal is toxic at any concentration.
It is classified as a toxic substance. The fact that the body can excrete it in small doses doesn't make it any less toxic. The question is how do you quantify the toxicity effect, or not as the case may be, on the body. Hence, the err on the side of caution approach. Remember, this adds no benefit to the vaccination, it is only a PRESERVATIVE. I'm not a gambling man, so my gut reaction on this would be to give it a miss. Are the thimerosal levels stated for the vaccines always correct? The human error factor on top of everything else is enough to scare parents away from these vaccines. Thimerosal will soon be a banned/redundant substance with regard to vaccines, as informed parents will decline them. Why would parents want to save the government money by allowing them to inject their children with a vaccine that contains a toxic preservative. It just doesn't add up.
We may have to take a leaf out of the amish book on this one.
Sue M said, "Thank God, Haley has some common sense."
Is that how you got your 10 kids?
kevin_1000 said, "Autism statistic have risen: fact."
All Your Base are Belong to Us! Sweet stats, did Rick "MD, uh... no... uh.. PhD... uh... no..." Rollins help you out with that meaningful and accurate analysis?
kevin_1000 then went on to blather, "Vaccines can kill. fact"
And so can DAN! doctors - let's outlaw them. DDAN!DN! (defeat Defeat Autism Now! doctors now!) OT-ish - calling most of these DAN! quacks, "doctors", is really too much.
"Thimerosal is toxic at any concentration."
looks like someone needs a dose of high school-level chemistry.
stick to the wikipedia cut/paste stuff, don't let clone get to you. I really thought you sounded like you knew what you were talking about... for a second.
LOL
Nothing is toxic at any concentration. Myristicin is a narcotic, and if you take a whole can of nutmeg, you will get sick and hallucinate. A teaspoon in the apple pie will cause no ill effects. The LD50 of botulinum toxin is 0.00001 mg/kg. People receive injections of this stuff (called Botox) without dying.
LD50 of thiomersal is 45 mg/kg (rat), so it is less acutely toxic than strychnine sulfate at 2 mg/kg (Casarett & Doull's Toxicology).
"All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison from a remedy." Paracelus (1493-1541)
Another effect of mercury poisoning is turning the skin pink, which is why another name for it is "Pink Disease".
The skin will actually turn a fairly bright magenta as shown in this article about a pair of mercury poisoned toddlers:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/2/201
Do autistic children have an abnormal skin color?
An interesting comment that seems to be ignored by the chelation fans it this bit: " Over the 8 weeks in hospital they showed some minor neurocognitive improvements, but their long-term prognosis is uncertain."
Now several of the "autism is mercury poisoning" know about this study. So much so, that one copied the study to his website and then CHANGED THE PHOTOS SO THAT THE SKIN COLOR WAS FADED! Check it out:
http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/?p=289
- "We may have to take a leaf out of the amish book on this one".
The genetic one that leads to CDFE (epilepsy/MR/autism)?
Mr kevin_1000 - wriggle as much you like son. When it comes to autism (the prevailing subject of this post) there's only one relevant question regarding thiomersal: does it cause autism?
There are two possible answers. The answer 'yes' has no basis in science. The answer 'no' therefore becomes more favourable. If you want the answer 'yes' to have some support then you will need to establish science that supports that answer. As of right now, there is none whatsoever.
Kev;
There are millions of proofs that thimerosal causes the condition misnamed as autism. The proofs are the dollar bills in the pockets of George Bush, Bill Frist and others from whom the drug companies bought protection from their crimes of negligence. Why won't you discuss this fact, Kev?
"All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison from a remedy." Paracelus (1493-1541)
Thimerosal is not a remedy, it's a preservative. Anyway, we've come along way since 1541. That statement is not strictly correct.
The effective toxicity of a substance is relative to the host. We are all individuals with our own biological identity. Take penicillin as an example of a remedy and a poison.
Do you think it's ethical to inject babies with a known neurotoxin that has no benefit to them whatsoever?
re:nutmeg
"A teaspoon in the apple pie will cause no ill effects."
I think you'll find some people are allergic to nutmeg i.e. it is poison/toxic to their system.
"LD50 of thiomersal is 45 mg/kg (rat), so it is less acutely toxic than strychnine sulfate at 2 mg/kg (Casarett & Doull's Toxicology)."
Nice comparison: thimerosal and strychnine. Strychnine sulfate is only 12.5 times more toxic than thimerosal. Puts things into perspective a little.
"Do autistic children have an abnormal skin color?"
I didn't say they were identical.
"The genetic one that leads to CDFE (epilepsy/MR/autism)?"
The gene(s) for autism has(have) not been found, therefore it can't be autism.
Kev,everything in life is not always black and white. You are very naive if you think that son, especially when it comes to money and politics. Parents that are informed about the current controversy with thimerosal and autism will opt not to inject their children with vaccines containing thimerosal. It's called erring on the side of caution. Do you think parents want to play Russian roulette with their children in light of the thimerosal debate? I think not.
Are you allowing your child to still be injected with vaccines that contain thimerosal Kev?
Kev wrote:
"You say I have engaged in personal attacks and taken quotes out of context. OK, fine. You're entitled to that opinion but I'm afraid if you want people who think to take you seriously, bald assertion won't cut it. All I'm asking is that you back up your allegations. Three times I've asked you now - why can't you do it"?
Kev, you are well aware of where you have taken people out of context. When you go to Seidel's blog you will see Haley's account of the "mad" child comment. Also, Rollens... train wreck issue. Your "You Tube" video is so irrelavant that I'm not going to pick it apart person by person but you get the idea.
"No Sue, autism advocacy is not a matter of science".
Kev, of course I have no issue with your "autism advocacy". The problem is I don't see any advocacy going on... the second that I see real "advocacy" going on with you (ie state assistance, schooling help, etc). I would be as quiet as a mouse or agree with you. When your "advocacy" consists of personal attacks on people who have a very different view as you on injecting a known toxin into babies, I'm sorry but people with common sense can see right through that.
"If people want to read about the science of autism, then there's a wealth of information in other places on Orac's blog, on my blog, on NM's blog, on Diva's blog...."
As you know Kev, there is very little "science" going on in these blogs that you mention above. Very little.
"Show me evidence that thimerosal in vaccines has been toxic to anyone, never mind that it causes mercury poisoning".
I chuckle to myself when I see someone with some common sense (Kevin_1000) trying to talk to people with obviously no grasp on reality.
Person with common sense says:
"Thimerosal is toxic it should be out of vaccines completely and we don't know the damage that it has/could have caused".
Clueless person:
"Prove that it's toxic. Show me the doses used in vaccines could do damage. Prove it or else -- you're wrong".
Obviously those "quotes" were made up but you get the picture. It is, in fact, like arguing with the town drunk. Clone, how many drinks did you have yesterday?
I'm still waiting for the 100 peer reviewed studies (double blinded) on the dangers of Lupron given in small amounts to children with autism. Clone, Kev, Orac... have you found them yet? You need to PROVE the possible risks before we can take you seriously.
Bazooka Joe wrote:
"looks like someone needs a dose of high school-level chemistry".
Bazooka Joe,
Clearly you are a newbie. Kevin_1000 doesn't need help in the chemistry department. It is you who needs help. You see Boyd Haley an "expert" in chemistry, tells us what we need to know. Who, Bazooka, do you have on your side for "experts"? Is it Orac, Diva, Kev Leitch? Who are they?
"People receive injections of this stuff (called Botox) without dying".
Ruth,
What if Botox was injected into babies in relatively large doses (for an infant) over and over again? Could that, perhaps, cause damage? Do you think that my ped would object to me insisting that I inject my baby with botox every two months just for the heck of it? Common sense tells me you are grasping at straws, Ruth.
You do realize that that argument has been used as evidence of 9/11 being an inside job, that aliens are in Roswell Area 51, etcetera.
Of course, you still have to prove that those dollars were acquired via the imaginary thimerosal-autism link.
What was that Southpark episode, again? Underpants gnomes.
Phase I: Steal underpants.
Phase II: ?
Phase III: Profit!
Of course, this is all a big subject change shell game.
You don't prove the existence of aliens by claiming X politicians are making money off of a coverup. You prove the existence of aliens by proving the existence of aliens. Anything else leads into unfalsifiable la-la land.
Besides, people can make money by helping society. Money isn't evidence of wrongdoing.
And, of course, alongside JB/FS's return, we have Sylvia Browne's, I mean CS's pleas of "Prove to us that psychic powers don't exist!" More shifting burden of proof.
Prove to me that cell phones don't cause hemoroids through a mechanism I won't bother to explain, or even keep consistent.
BronzeDog,
Sorry, I forgot to add you to the list of people who I would be interested in getting the 100 peer reviewed (double blinded) studies on the dangers of Lupron. No studies, no safety concerns. Inject freely and often. No need for any tests ahead of time... a little bit never hurt anyone.
Bronze Dog;
The bribes are right there for anyone to see under the guise of campaign contributions. The sneaky add-ons to bills are common knowledge and can not reasonably be compared to aliens or bigfoot or whatever stupid analogy you want to use in your childish stabs at obfuscation.
Ted Kennedy's speech to Bill Frist on 12/22 or 23 of last year is a matter of public record regarding this matter. It was beautiful.
Did Kev ask you to respond for him since he has no grasp of politics?
My point is that there can be a safe dose for even very toxic material. A quack doc and 3 patients landed in the ER last year with symptoms of botulism poisoning. The doc had tried to make his own Botox and had made it too strong. Some DAN docs have recomended vitamin A in amounts that have caused liver damage. I still feed my kids carrots. I have hearing loss partly due to drugs I received for sepsis. My doc weighed using the strongest antibiotics to save my life with the chance I would have hearing loss.
You want guarantees of safety, and no one can give you that. When thiomersal was added to vacines, the regulatory climate and ability to evaluate risks was different. Did the world become less safe when chemists developed techniques to measure parts per trillion of toxins? Plants make toxins that we have eaten for thousands of years-our bodies evolved de-toxing methods. Would todays FDA approve adding thiomersal to vaccines? Most likely not. Aspirin would have been hard to approve. It does not mean that there was a conspiricy. It was seen as a good, safe solution then. Women carried babies in cars then without car safety seats. The kind of safety testing you want for thiomersal was not possible in 1930-the techniques did not exist. It was continued to be used for decades not out intent to do evil, but because there was no motivation to look into it. As awareness increased, the reg agencies started looking at older substances and re-evaluating them by modern methods.
I wish doing science was as profitable as you think. There is actually more money to be made in diet supplements and alternative meds. Selling sterile water as homopathic remedies costs less than spending millions for research on real meds that cure real disease, but that may harm a small number of people. Ask why supplement makers lobbied Congress to be exempt from FDA regs.
Another effect of mercury poisoning is turning the skin pink, which is why another name for it is "Pink Disease".
A more noticeable aspect of true mercury poisoning is that it's often fatal. Look up Minamata disesase. It had a very high mortality rate in Japan.
"There are millions of proofs that thimerosal causes the condition misnamed as autism. The proofs are the dollar bills in the pockets of George Bush, Bill Frist and others from whom the drug companies bought protection from their crimes of negligence. Why won't you discuss this fact, Kev?"
So your proof that thiomersal causes autism is the loose change of some politicians. I see.
That comment is why no one takes you seriously John.
That's what I find most insane about these nutbar conspiracy theories: There are easier ways to make profits that don't involve silencing or buying off millions of people. If these "Always Neutral Evil" doctors acted like conspiracy nuts described, they wouldn't be doing any science at all. They'd be homeopaths, (bad) chiropractors, reiki specialists, and acupuncturists. All of those people, unlike evidence-based medicine are culturally rendered immune to the need to gather evidence. The same is true of conspiracy theorists:
Society has degraded to the point where we're expected to just smile and nod to their claims, and yet we're supposed to always hold the pharmaceutical industry in contempt, just like Creationists do for evolution.
"Kev,everything in life is not always black and white."
Really? Who knew? Let me see if I understand - life is not black and white but thiomersal causes autism even when there's no logical or scientific reason to think so.
Yeah, I get you.
"Parents that are informed about the current controversy with thimerosal and autism will opt not to inject their children with vaccines containing thimerosal. It's called erring on the side of caution. Do you think parents want to play Russian roulette with their children in light of the thimerosal debate? I think not."
Sorry - whats any of that got to do with thiomersal causing autism?
"Are you allowing your child to still be injected with vaccines that contain thimerosal Kev?"<?i>
That would be pretty damn difficult seeing as I live in the UK.
Sorry, I forgot to add you to the list of people who I would be interested in getting the 100 peer reviewed (double blinded) studies on the dangers of Lupron.
Are you kidding? There's even a study that documents possible adverse effects on memory with Lupron. See here.
"Kev, you are well aware of where you have taken people out of context."
Now, now Sue, no back pedalling. You said 'personal comments' and 'out of context'. But you bring up Boyd haley so lets look at that context. Haley says when he referred to these kids as having 'MAD child disease' where MAD stands for 'mercury afflicted disease'. So when you expand the phraseology out Haley is referring to 'mercury afflicted child disease child disease'. Did he flunk high school English or was this just a bit of hasty scrabbling about to cover his posterior?
"Your "You Tube" video is so irrelavant that I'm not going to pick it apart person by person but you get the idea."
So, its irrelevant now you've been asked to back up your statements but it wasn't irrelevant enough to ignore in the first place? Righto Sue - I understand ;o)
"No Sue, autism advocacy is not a matter of science".
"When your "advocacy" consists of personal attacks on people who have a very different view as you on injecting a known toxin into babies, I'm sorry but people with common sense can see right through that."
Sorry, so you're saying that I, as someone who doesn't agree that thiomersal should be in vaccines am being disagreed with by the people I feature in the video? Interesting. I never knew that.
"As you know Kev, there is very little "science" going on in these blogs that you mention above. Very little."
I'm aware that you are unable to recognise science, yes :o)
That's funny coming from people who don't understand that toxicity is an issue of grays: The dose makes the poison. As you increase the dose, it gets darker gray. This applies to all chemicals, including water. Water is, however, one of those that stays a very light gray for longer.
Since all chemicals are like that, I fail to see a reason to apply a double-standard and declare one to be black.
I also find it funny because they expect us to see some people as pure black, like doctors in general, as if they're all in this monstrous (and inherently unprofitable) conspiracy, and none of them ever got into the field to help people, or if they did, they're ALL too cowardly to risk their paycheck, despite getting into the field to help people.
Okay- it has been a long week, and part of the long week is because people I work with who work with kids with autism accept the idea that chelation works and parents see a difference and no kids have died from this. Mercury causes autism. Being that these are educators with varying degrees I am appalled and horrified that this stuff is being done to kids with a bunch of adults saying it works. I think I will have to quit my job if I actually experience a child going through this. I mentioned that there is no science involved in the mercury autism "connection" and the same with chelation- I was immediately looked at with suspicion. This is ridiculous.
I am not medically trained, nor do I have an official degree, so I am immediately thought of as an uneducated hick. And because of the nature of thes programs there is a HUGE emphasis on supporting parents being "proactive". The other thing is, the philosophy of these programs change all the time- so one year educational research will show one thing, and the next year, or next bandwagon, it will support something completely different. The people who work with kids are at the mercy of the prevailing fashionable idea as to how they are told to work with kids.
I have an idea. Why don't we stop treating kids with autism and other neurological brain based syndromes as problems and start treating them like people. They are not science experiments, they are individuals with differences in seeing and experiencing the world. And we need to protect kids from people who are willing to take advantage of those who prey upon desperate parents who will pay anything for their kid to be "normal".
Yeah- it seems like in all of the discussion here we have forgotten that there are little people involved. Little people who need real big people support to navigate through the world and not go off on very fashionable tangent. Show me science- hard cold double blind fact- regarding chelation and thimerosol/autism ....
Well said, anonymous.
Joseph wrote:
"Are you kidding? There's even a study that documents possible adverse effects on memory with Lupron. See here".
Are you kidding? I need 100 studies (double blinded). The studies need to be done on children only. No anectdotal evidence accepted. The Lupron needs to be given to these children in the same amounts given to children with autism. We need set proper control groups to compare. I need multiple studies (if you can't get me 100, I will possibly accept 50 IF they meet my criteria). If you can't get me those studies Joseph than you have no reason to claim that Lupron COULD be dangerous. You need to prove danger, remember? I don't need to prove safety. Balls in your court.
Below is a letter which is posted on the MHRA website in the UK. It's the UKs equivalent to the FDA.
"Request Under the Freedom of information act
I would like to know when thimerosal was banned from children's vaccines and why it was banned.
MHRA Reply e-mail: FOI 06/058 20 March 2006 Dear Thank you for your e-mail of 2006 requesting information about the presence of thiomersal in childhood vaccines under the Freedom of Information act. It has long been known that mercury when given in sufficient quantities poses a potential risk of neurodevelopmental toxicity in young children. For this reason guidelines have been drawn up to limit cumulative exposure to methylmercury. Thiomersal contains ethylmercury (a related organic mercury compound) and has played an important role (in very small doses) as a preservative in the production of some non-live vaccines for over 60 years through its action in killing or preventing the growth of micro-organisms. Ethylmercury is rapidly excreted after parenteral administration such that blood levels achieved are much lower compared with methylmercury. The safety of thiomersal in vaccines is kept under continual review by the MHRA/Commission on Human Medicines (CHM). In 2001, the CSM (now the Commission for Human Medicines) conducted a major review of the available evidence for a possible association with neurodevelopmental disorders and has since then considered new data on a number of occasions as it has emerged. The CHM's current advice is that there is no evidence of harm from the very small quantities of thiomersal contained in some vaccines, with the exception of possible allergic reactions (typically skin rashes or local swelling at the site of injection). This view concurs with that of the World Health Organisation, the United States Institute of Medicine and the European Medicines Agency (EMEA). The balance of benefits and risks of thiomersal-containing vaccines remains overwhelmingly positive. In response to your question, thiomersal has never been banned from UK childhood vaccines. Due to public concern about the health effects of mercury exposure of any sort and a global goal desire to minimise environmental exposure to mercury compounds, the elimination of mercury from vaccines was judged to be a feasible means of reducing an infant's total exposure to mercury given that other environmental sources of exposure are more difficult or impossible to eliminate. Both European and American regulatory authorities have therefore recommended that vaccine manufacturers phase out its use wherever possible and manufacturers worldwide have initiated research programmes to eliminate, substitute or reduce thiomersal in vaccines. In the UK, the then Committee on Safety of Medicines (CSM) endorsed this recommendation. In the UK the MMR, meningitis C conjugate, Hib, oral polio and BCG vaccines have never contained thiomersal and, until recently, the diphtheria, tetanus and wholecell pertussis (DTwP) vaccine contained thiomersal in very small quantities. However, on 27 September 2004 a new combined diphtheria, tetanus,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 2
acellular pertussis, inactivated polio and Haemophilus influenzae type b (Pediacel) vaccine and new booster vaccines (Repevax and Revaxis) replaced the wholecell alternative in the childhood immunisation schedule. This change was made for two reasons: firstly, because the low risk of importation of polio in the UK provided the opportunity to move from the use of a live polio vaccine to an inactivated polio vaccine, thus eliminating the risk of developing vaccine-associated paralytic polio, a very rare side effect of the oral live vaccine; and secondly, an acellular pertussis vaccine that was as effective as the previous whole-cell pertussis vaccine and had the added advantage of being less reactogenic in children became available in the UK. Being thiomersal-free, these vaccines also met the aim of reducing the unnecessary exposure of children to mercury. As of 27 September 2004, the UK routine childhood immunisation programme has not therefore included any thiomersal-containing vaccines. If you would like any further information please do not hesitate to write to the MHRA again.
Yours sincerely MHRA"
The gist of it is they aren't using thimerosal due to "public concern". What nonsense, since when has public concern counted for anything?
They're not instilling much confidence for future vaccination programmes, as thimerosal may be used in the future as it has not been banned. All the hard work and effort to create effective vaccination programmes has went to shit. One word sums all of this up: greed. Well they've shit in their own nest now. Parents will be more vigilent when it comes to allowing their children to be vaccinated, if at all. And I wouldn't blame them.
Common Sue: "Balls in your court."
I think that's a New England insult of some sort.
Below is a letter which is posted on the MHRA website in the UK. It's the UKs equivalent to the FDA.
"Request Under the Freedom of information act
I would like to know when thimerosal was banned from children's vaccines and why it was banned.
MHRA Reply e-mail: FOI 06/058 20 March 2006 Dear Thank you for your e-mail of 2006 requesting information about the presence of thiomersal in childhood vaccines under the Freedom of Information act. It has long been known that mercury when given in sufficient quantities poses a potential risk of neurodevelopmental toxicity in young children. For this reason guidelines have been drawn up to limit cumulative exposure to methylmercury. Thiomersal contains ethylmercury (a related organic mercury compound) and has played an important role (in very small doses) as a preservative in the production of some non-live vaccines for over 60 years through its action in killing or preventing the growth of micro-organisms. Ethylmercury is rapidly excreted after parenteral administration such that blood levels achieved are much lower compared with methylmercury. The safety of thiomersal in vaccines is kept under continual review by the MHRA/Commission on Human Medicines (CHM). In 2001, the CSM (now the Commission for Human Medicines) conducted a major review of the available evidence for a possible association with neurodevelopmental disorders and has since then considered new data on a number of occasions as it has emerged. The CHM's current advice is that there is no evidence of harm from the very small quantities of thiomersal contained in some vaccines, with the exception of possible allergic reactions (typically skin rashes or local swelling at the site of injection). This view concurs with that of the World Health Organisation, the United States Institute of Medicine and the European Medicines Agency (EMEA). The balance of benefits and risks of thiomersal-containing vaccines remains overwhelmingly positive. In response to your question, thiomersal has never been banned from UK childhood vaccines. Due to public concern about the health effects of mercury exposure of any sort and a global goal desire to minimise environmental exposure to mercury compounds, the elimination of mercury from vaccines was judged to be a feasible means of reducing an infant's total exposure to mercury given that other environmental sources of exposure are more difficult or impossible to eliminate. Both European and American regulatory authorities have therefore recommended that vaccine manufacturers phase out its use wherever possible and manufacturers worldwide have initiated research programmes to eliminate, substitute or reduce thiomersal in vaccines. In the UK, the then Committee on Safety of Medicines (CSM) endorsed this recommendation. In the UK the MMR, meningitis C conjugate, Hib, oral polio and BCG vaccines have never contained thiomersal and, until recently, the diphtheria, tetanus and wholecell pertussis (DTwP) vaccine contained thiomersal in very small quantities. However, on 27 September 2004 a new combined diphtheria, tetanus,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 2
acellular pertussis, inactivated polio and Haemophilus influenzae type b (Pediacel) vaccine and new booster vaccines (Repevax and Revaxis) replaced the wholecell alternative in the childhood immunisation schedule. This change was made for two reasons: firstly, because the low risk of importation of polio in the UK provided the opportunity to move from the use of a live polio vaccine to an inactivated polio vaccine, thus eliminating the risk of developing vaccine-associated paralytic polio, a very rare side effect of the oral live vaccine; and secondly, an acellular pertussis vaccine that was as effective as the previous whole-cell pertussis vaccine and had the added advantage of being less reactogenic in children became available in the UK. Being thiomersal-free, these vaccines also met the aim of reducing the unnecessary exposure of children to mercury. As of 27 September 2004, the UK routine childhood immunisation programme has not therefore included any thiomersal-containing vaccines. If you would like any further information please do not hesitate to write to the MHRA again.
Yours sincerely MHRA"
The gist of it is they aren't using thimerosal due to "public concern". What nonsense, since when has public concern counted for anything?
They're not instilling much confidence for future vaccination programmes, as thimerosal may be used in the future as it has not been banned. All the hard work and effort to create effective vaccination programmes has went to shit. One word sums all of this up: greed. Well they've shit in their own nest now. Parents will be more vigilent when it comes to allowing their children to be vaccinated, if at all. And I wouldn't blame them.
Bronze dog
What colour is it when it's in the body?
Everything is multiple shades of gray when it's in the body. You haven't specified a dose.
Of course, I suspect with the amounts given in vaccines, it's still pretty light gray, considering that vaccines haven't caused too many problems over the decades, and most of those problems caused are usually much less likely than getting the same from the disease the vaccine is intended to prevent.
There probably are things better than thimerosal, but that's an entirely different subject, and beyond the scope of this comment thread.
Of course, if you'd like to say that vaccines have caused problems (like, specifically, autism), feel free to provide evidence that they have done so. I still haven't seen it, despite altie innuendo to the contrary.
Kev wrote:
"But you bring up Boyd haley so lets look at that context. Haley says when he referred to these kids as having 'MAD child disease' where MAD stands for 'mercury afflicted disease'. So when you expand the phraseology out Haley is referring to 'mercury afflicted child disease child disease'. Did he flunk high school English or was this just a bit of hasty scrabbling about to cover his posterior"?
You know, Kev, I have no idea about Boyd Haley's high school transcript in English. I do know that he seems to have excelled in Chemistry. That's really all that matters here in regards to his expert opinion. Here's what he wrote in regards to the MAD child comment:
http://www.neurodiversity.com/haley_reply.html
You can continue to twist words all you want Kev. You can make 100 "You Tube" videos... it doesn't change the facts.
Putting the "science" aside. On a purely personal level, I'd just like to say;
Kev,son.
You make my skin crawl.
I certainly feel the same way about the people who espouse this imaginary link between thimerosal and autism. Feels like every week, I find out a new gross ethics violation, or yet another unproven hypothesis that's utterly incompatible with last week's.
Plus, the various commenters speaking in favor of the link often end up changing the subject, rather than proving the very thing they advocate, not-so-creative humpty-dumpty scare word games, utterly false allegations about my political affiliations, and other methods that don't entail demonstrating the effectiveness of a cure, or demonstrating the link they're so fond of saying they've proven.
It's a lot like Skeptico's Astrology thread that got recently closed: He made a post requesting that Astrologers tell him how the ancients derived the rules behind astrology. Instead, he got psychobabble about how hateful a person he was, or how astrology doesn't have to follow logic, etcetera.
Bronze Dog,
I want to know what Rockstar Ryan and Rockstar Crystal have to say? They seem to be the brains of your blog. Do any of your children with autism suffer from GI issues or food allergies, Bronze Dog? Just curious. As for Skeptico's astrology thread... who the f*ck cares??
Come On Sense: As for Skeptico's astrology thread... who the f*ck cares??
That's very sweet Sue. I guess when you can't discuss logic or science you are forced to rely on attack mode.
What happened to this Sue M?
"I have grown tired of going on other blogs and seeing the anger and attacks
on myself and others who have spoken up against mercury/thimerosal/other
vaccine ingredients, etc. The debate gets so heated at times that common
sense is often disregarded. I fully understand that I am part of the
problem. I see statements which offend me and I jump right in with my own
"attack". It is certainly not something that I am terribly proud of.
Clone wrote:
"That's very sweet Sue. I guess when you can't discuss logic or science you are forced to rely on attack mode".
Was that an attack? Sorry. I'm just curious, what does Skeptico's astrology thread have to do with anything here?
"What happened to this Sue M"?
Still around. Still tired of the bull.
Kev;
Calling millions of dollars in bribes "loose change" is a poor analogy. Do you understand that there would be no need to bribe the politicians if their products had not caused harm?
Because it follows the same pattern: Skeptics as for evidence, or the collection method of existing "evidence," and instead we get ad homenims, psychobabble, excuses for not needing evidence, etcetera. It's all about evasion, autism-thimerosal advocates engage in exactly the same type of evasions.
Moot question, since there aren't any bribes, at least no bribes intended to cover up this phantom link.
Besides, such a cover-up is absurd. I think it's safe to say that covering up such a link, if it existed, would require so many bribes and hitmen that it would bankrupt the US, even if they could pull it off by throwing money at the problem.
"Because it follows the same pattern: Skeptics as for evidence, or the collection method of existing "evidence," and instead we get ad homenims, psychobabble, excuses for not needing evidence, etcetera. It's all about evasion, autism-thimerosal advocates engage in exactly the same type of evasions".
I know that your blog, "Rockstar's Ramblings" and Orac's blog deal with the psychic question at times. I'm not interested. Really, it's ok to be skeptical Bronze Dog, just don't give up on your common sense. How about your kids? Autism from birth or regressive?
common sense cried, "Bazooka Joe, Clearly you are a newbie. Kevin_1000 doesn't need help in the chemistry department. It is you who needs help. You see Boyd Haley an "expert" in chemistry, tells us what we need to know. Who, Bazooka, do you have on your side for "experts"? Is it Orac, Diva, Kev Leitch? Who are they?"
Newbie assessment parameters being....? One's credibility is immediately shot when citing the likes of Haley as an expert. You have a problem with money and motives... except that Haley sells imaginary mercury-binding snake oil himself. So, what's the deal, Sue? You're cool with Boyd and you claim that he has a little common sense - is that on the side, or are you straight up with that? Strike that, I really, really don't want to know.
I respect anyone who respects and/or practises the scientific method. Doesn't matter to me whether they're a high school grad, got a GED, earned a PhD, worked to get an MD, or just likes the internet like me.
You have no experience with autism. You're simply an antivaccination, government conspiracy monger.
As I read your tripe, Sue, I'm reminded that I'm observing someone who values whale.to and Ayoub as sources of science. I've often wondered about the source of your heartburn with Orac and I'm left with the realization that you have a problem with his exposure and mockery of quacks, extremists, and antisemites.
btw, there's a good page on the use of apostrophes. I'd suggest a good hard look.
"You have a problem with money and motives... except that Haley sells imaginary mercury-binding snake oil himself".
Here's a quiz fo'r you: Whic'h produc't does H'aley sell?
"I respect anyone who respects and/or practises the scientific method. Doesn't matter to me whether they're a high school grad, got a GED, earned a PhD, worked to get an MD, or just likes the internet like me".
Me's too's as long as the'y also hav'e some common' sense. Without that, chances are they become like sheeps'.
"You have no experience with autism. You're simply an antivaccination, government conspiracy monger".
Actuall'y, I have more experience with ASD's than do 90% of the peo'ple on this particular blog -- that's obvious. Yes, anyone' who question's vaccinations' and their' ingredient's HAS to be an antivaccination government conspirac'y monge'r.
"As I read your tripe, Sue, I'm reminded that I'm observing someone who values whale.to and Ayoub as sources of science".
Who's work's do you enjoy', Paul Offit's?
"I've often wondered about the source of your heartburn with Orac and I'm left with the realization that you have a problem with his exposure and mockery of quacks, extremists, and antisemites".
Antisemites', huh'? Get's yourself a grip, my' friend. I only wish Orac spent's 1/10's of his time' working with children with autism than' he does with talking about's star wars and placenta's eating.
Thanks for the apostrophe's lesson.
oh, I don't know... maybe a company that markets toxicology testing kits to dentists. but that doesn't have anything to do with thimerosal, or does it? Looks like someone's diversifying right into some new wallets.
"Actuall'y, I have more experience with ASD's than do 90% of the peo'ple on this particular blog"
that means so much, Sue.
"Yes, anyone' who question's vaccinations' and their' ingredient's HAS to be an antivaccination government conspirac'y monge'r."
Let the people decide, your words are saved for all to see.
"I only wish Orac spent's 1/10's of his time' working with children with autism than' he does with talking about's star wars and placenta's eating."
Yeah, it'd be great to have every cancer-oriented doc switch on over to autism research. But I wonder what the parents of a child with cancer would think?
You want placenta? JB Handley can get you some, but you might need give him a little piece of common sense. (scroll down to Ora-placenta) Gross.
"The genetic one that leads to CDFE (epilepsy/MR/autism)?"
The gene(s) for autism has(have) not been found, therefore it can't be autism.
From the new kevin_1000 "RAW" NEJM comedy special
Mr. T: Hey boy, there are DSM-IV diagnosed autistic Amish with an identified likely genetic etiology.
Jedi Murphy_1000: No there isn't, it can't be autism [waves hand - jedi mind trick thing]
Mr. T: Okay there isn't.
Wow, it works!
"You know, Kev, I have no idea about Boyd Haley's high school transcript in English. I do know that he seems to have excelled in Chemistry. That's really all that matters here in regards to his expert opinion. Here's what he wrote in regards to the MAD child comment:"
Oh no Sue - what matters is your agenda that I took his quote out of context. I'm well aware that you might want to redefine that context now you've been shown up (again).
I read what he wrote ages ago - its self serving crap. He knows what he said and he knows he meant it.
"You make my skin crawl."
Woo-hoo! I love it when people use valley-girl logic in their points :o)
"Calling millions of dollars in bribes "loose change" is a poor analogy. Do you understand that there would be no need to bribe the politicians if their products had not caused harm?"
You miss the point John (hardly a new experience). The point is that you attempted to answer the scientific question: does thiomersal cause autism by referring to the contents of a politicians pockets.
Funny but irrelevant :o)
Kev;
I didn't miss any points, genius. Your the one who just keeps dodging the question. The junk science isn't relevant, especially with nonsense like this father's age crap. It's much easier to see the truth by following the money. I'm not surprised that's over your head :o)
"Woo-hoo! I love it when people use valley-girl logic in their points :o)"
What "point" do you think was I trying to make by saying "you make my skin crawl"?
My personal opinion that you are a creep, doesn't need any logic behind it.
BTW, Have you learned how to drive yet?
Kev;
At this point, since you can't discuss the politics intelligently, I think you should try character assassination and remind everyone that I'm bigotted against Muslim terrorists to enhance your position.
jonsmum, how about you try meaningfully contribute to the conversation? Someone on the autism-thimerosal side has to try doing so.
Best, no one needs reminding that you are a bigot. I'm sure your fan, jonsmum, shares your sentiments. Blind hatred like that is really sad.
It's bizarre that bigotry, conspiracy mongering, and a complete lack of scientific understanding define the extreme edge of the biomedphiles. You and your ilk actually do a disservice to the majority those practising biomedical intervention: those who don't believe in black helicopters and gov't conspiracies involving the poisoning of children.
Bazooka Joe;
Misconstruing coverups as conspiracies and waving black helicopters around just demonstrates your ineptitude at critical thinking. There is no bigotry involved in anything i said, that's just Kev's shoddy defense when he has no rebuttal. The science here is simple. Mercury is a neurotoxin. What don't you fathom about that?
"oh, I don't know... maybe a company that markets toxicology testing kits to dentists. but that doesn't have anything to do with thimerosal, or does it? Looks like someone's diversifying right into some new wallets".
Oh, I see. So it's not mercury binding snake oil... it's test kits. Cool.
"that means so much, Sue".
If it doesn't mean much, why are you bringing it up?
"Yeah, it'd be great to have every cancer-oriented doc switch on over to autism research. But I wonder what the parents of a child with cancer would think"?
No, wait. Backtrack. I was very clear - on purpose. I have all the respect for Orac and his cancer research, etc. I'm sure he has done a lot of good. I specifically mentioned giving up some time from Star Wars and placenta eating to concentrate on autism research. I mean how much time does he waste on Star Wars, etc. which could be used in a more productive manner. I hope that he continues his cancer research. Don't misquote me.
Kev wrote:
"I read what he wrote ages ago - its self serving crap. He knows what he said and he knows he meant it".
Oh, boy. Your friend, Bronze Dog (the Rockstar) is going to take issue with that. He has a problem with people saying that they have psychic abilities. Who knew that Kev Leitch could read someone's mind when they talk. That's cool.
I don't think this thread has anything to do with discussing politics intelligently, or debating with any scientific knowledge or understanding.
Admit it, anyone with an ounce of sense can see you all for what you are. A bunch of pseudo intellectuals, trying to prove your intelligence, by playing games.
I know more than you do, I'm better and smarter than you, I can catch you out, I can and will, show you up for your ignorance, I'm the king of the castle, and you're the dirty rascal, na na na na na.
Apart from what my 'idols' have to say, there is nothing meaningful in this "conversation" as you call it, Kev.
PS. Have you learned to drive yet, son?
The irony of jonsmum's post is truly amazing.
How about someone post evidence of a link between thimerosal and autism? I've been waiting for months. I wonder if this is anything like Randi waiting 5 years for Sylvia to perform the test she agreed to.
Not something that marginally suspicious about some politician. Everything in politics is suspicious, especially to someone who works under silly premises.
Not anecdotes: Although people like Fore Sam/John Best do the most they can to ignore it, going by anecdotes for stuff like this inherently cherrypicking. They typically don't give me any reason to dismiss contrary anecdotes... Except for innuendo that the person presenting it is a government shill and that they swear they aren't quackery shills.
Enough beating around the bush or The Bush (who I hate, btw): Start referencing studies that prove the thimerosal/autism link, the effectiveness of chelation/lupron for treating autism, or shut up.
No more political subject change shell games.
Common Sue said, "Don't misquote me."
omfg! Sue, you actually think that blogging is conducting autism research. Is this because you wear latex when you comment? There are safer ways to spread a little piece of common sense to Haley and Best.
As for Orac's blogging style, I'll take the periodic star wars fun and commentary on JB's placenta.
Hey jonsmum, your idols, Best et al., won't be bigots if you close your eyes. Keep up the good work.
"I didn't miss any points, genius. Your the one who just keeps dodging the question. The junk science isn't relevant, especially with nonsense like this father's age crap. It's much easier to see the truth by following the money. I'm not surprised that's over your head :o)"
Dodging what question John? Do I think the answer to a scientific question can be found between the legs of George Bush?
My answer is no :o)
"What "point" do you think was I trying to make by saying "you make my skin crawl"?"
None at all - you are fairly pointless :o)
"Oh, boy. Your friend, Bronze Dog (the Rockstar) is going to take issue with that. He has a problem with people saying that they have psychic abilities. Who knew that Kev Leitch could read someone's mind when they talk. That's cool."
Where exactly did I claim I could read anyone's mind Sue? But once again - nice try on deflecting the attention ;o)
"Apart from what my 'idols' have to say, there is nothing meaningful in this "conversation" as you call it, Kev."
Uh, that was Bronze Dog :o)
"PS. Have you learned to drive yet, son?"
Learnt to read yet toots? ;o)
"omfg! Sue, you actually think that blogging is conducting autism research. Is this because you wear latex when you comment? There are safer ways to spread a little piece of common sense to Haley and Best".
First of all, nice mouth :) Secondly, where did I say that blogging is conducting autism research? I implore you to go back and actually read what I wrote. After doing that, if you still have questions, report back. If I don't hear from you, I will "assume" that you realize that you completely missed the point.
Have a nice day (if I don't here back from you)!
It's a long comment thread, so I may have missed it:
1. Do you have any references to properly controlled studies that support a link between thimerosal and autism?
2. Do you have any double-blind control studies demonstrating the efficacy of chelation or lupron for treating autism?
Kev wrote:
"Where exactly did I claim I could read anyone's mind Sue? But once again - nice try on deflecting the attention ;o)"
You seemed to use your psychic abilities when you claimed to know what Haley meant when he said something in regards to the MAD child issue that upset you so much. You see, the above response from Haley differs from your view and he even sent out a second response (very kind of him):
http://www.neurodiversity.com/haley_reply02.html
It seems your psychic abilities have failed Kev. Or perhaps, you know what Haley meant better than he does. Possible, but highly unlikely.
BronzeDog wrote:
"It's a long comment thread, so I may have missed it:
1. Do you have any references to properly controlled studies that support a link between thimerosal and autism?
2. Do you have any double-blind control studies demonstrating the efficacy of chelation or lupron for treating autism"?
Apology accepted.
Have you seen any of the studies that have been mentioned here over and over again (although not necessarily in this thread)? You see, I get tired of posting the same information when people either don't read them and/or don't trust them. Stop asking for the studies. You know where they are, don't you? The studies don't show a definitive link but they are quite telling in what they do show. Certainly more research is needed. Forget about sweeping it under the carpet as the IOM wishes to do. Is that too much to ask?
BronzeDog, you also seem to be forgetting something very important here. I do not have to show anything in regards to either chelation and/or Lupron. It is up to YOU to prove to me that they are dangerous. Remember? Dose makes the poison.
jonsmum... What really makes my skin crawl are cretins who reduce the herd immunity, thereby putting my medically fragile child at risk (who had to rely on herd immunity because of a real medical necesity). We had to avoid a situation like this:
http://www.metrokc.gov/health/immunization/newsstories.htm#pertussis
AND what really makes our skin crawl are the cretins who take advantage of desparate parents and sell them worthless, and sometimes HARMFUL "cures". Those cretins include the Haley, Bradford, Buttar and Roy Kerry (who actually DID kill a kid). More about the fleecing of parents here:
http://specialed.wordpress.com/2006/03/20/the-fleecing-of-the-autism-co…
"Secondly, where did I say that blogging is conducting autism research?"
scroll up. here, I'll help:
"I only wish Orac spent's 1/10's of his time' working with children with autism than' he does with talking about's star wars and placenta's eating."
"I specifically mentioned giving up some time from Star Wars and placenta eating to concentrate on autism research. I mean how much time does he waste on Star Wars, etc. which could be used in a more productive manner. I hope that he continues his cancer research. Don't misquote me."
You've discussed his blogging and his research. Maybe his time you're talking about involves a fantasy about spreading a little common sense his way and you got caught up with it.
In any case Sue, you can quibble all you like, but at the end of the day, you're simply an antivax, anti-government, conspiracy mongering extremist who has nothing to do with autism except having a strong desire to spread fear among parents in an effort to gain support for the anti-vax movement. I wonder if you act this way on type 1 diabetes boards and lists.
I have a nice day every day, Sue. No black helicopters or conspiracy mongering for me. Plus, like puddles on the ground, I step over the bigots and enjoy the sunshine. Your phone is tapped, btw.
"You've discussed his blogging and his research".
Obviously, you completely missed the point. A simple I'm sorry would have sufficed.
Bazooka, good luck with your children with autism. I wish you all the best.
Bazooka Joe;
"Hey jonsmum, your idols, Best et al., won't be bigots if you close your eyes. Keep up the good work".
My eyes are wide open, and what I see here is very ugly.
All conspiracy mongers claim to have their eyes open. That's one of the kicks they get out of it: The perception that they're better than everyone who disagrees with them.
Of course, the problem is that they tend to be light on evidence and heavy on innuendo.
Another problem with big coverups: They cost a lot of money, especially if they involve something that lots of people can research, and that's working under the absurd assumption that everyone has a price.
BronzeDog wrote:
"All conspiracy mongers claim to have their eyes open. That's one of the kicks they get out of it: The perception that they're better than everyone who disagrees with them.
Of course, the problem is that they tend to be light on evidence and heavy on innuendo.
Another problem with big coverups: They cost a lot of money, especially if they involve something that lots of people can research, and that's working under the absurd assumption that everyone has a price".
Nice reference on 9/11 BronzeDog.
Yes, jonsmum, some of this stuff is very ugly. Like the thousands of dollars spent by desparate parents for useless (and sometimes even dangerous) treatments. This is how one parent has reacted (which you would know if you had read it when I first posted it):
http://specialed.wordpress.com/2006/03/20/the-fleecing-of-the-autism-co…
... he says "These frauds sell crap, preying on the concern of parents for their children. They guilt us by saying, "Wouldn't you do anything to help your child?" When it doesn't work, we are told we didn't do it right which is shorthand for "we didn't spend enough money." I've seen the shit come and go. And everyone has something to offer...for a price. No one is giving this stuff away. They are impoverishing an entire class of people."
Tell us how open your eyes are when Boyd Haley's website is for sales pitches... or that Buttar charges several times more than a real doctor just to see him... or that the Geiers are seriously selling and advocating to chemically castrate children with Lupron.
Yeah, your blinders are on pretty tight.
Also, someone needs to send David Ayoub this game:
http://www.sjgames.com/illuminati/
Fnord
"You seemed to use your psychic abilities when you claimed to know what Haley meant when he said something in regards to the MAD child issue that upset you so much"
Oh I see - so when I said:
"He knows what he said and he knows he meant it." you thought 'he' was me referring to myself in the third person? That's Diva's schtick :o)
Another one who can't read. Amazing ;o)
"My eyes are wide open, and what I see here is very ugly."
Oh man, she's right. Jonsmum has opened my eyes and I can finally see where I've been going wrong. I should never have made that video.
We should be free to call any subsection of society 'mad'. Black children for example. Who'd object to that? And we should refer to maybe Jews or Indians as 'trailor dwelling coo-coos' - its OK, they're different. That makes it OK.
And hey - those gays? No human can look at them you know. Their mummies and daddies abandoned them in the hell of homosexuality. You can't miss gays - they're like sexual train wrecks.
What? I'm being a bigot? No, no, no you misunderstand - I'm all for educating them. That's advocacy. But asking them to be recognised as valid human beings without perjorative labels? That's crazy talk! Everyone knows George Bush and Tony Blair bribed people to keep this quiet!
You're welcome. Now you just need to apply the same sort of thought to a subject that's everywhere, that any qualified person can research. For that reason, I'd think it'd be even harder to cover up a thimerosal-autism link than it would to cover up a 9/11 conspiracy, especially since they had to do it for longer. Over the decades, you'd think there'd be at least one whistleblower who appeals to evidence, rather than conspiracy theories designed to be unfalsifiable.
The problems of one massive world-spanning conspiracy still apply to all massive world-spanning conspiracies, whether it's the "The Holocaust was faked!", "the moon landing was faked!", or "all the evidence for evolution was faked!" variety. It's the same thing with autism-thimerosal. We need good evidence to change our minds, not absurd conspiracy theories.
Conspiracy is the last refuge of a quack.
Kev wrote:
"Oh I see - so when I said:
"He knows what he said and he knows he meant it." you thought 'he' was me referring to myself in the third person? That's Diva's schtick :o)
Another one who can't read. Amazing ;o)"
No, silly. You see I posted two links where Haley discussed the issue with the 'mad' reference. In those letters he explained the context and asked you to get a copy of the speech? Did you? (I didn't). So, for you to say that "He knows what he said and he knows he meant it.", that would mean that you were using your psychic abilities to come to the conclusion that his letters did not jive with his real thoughs. Get it now?
You see, Kev, you may not accept Haley's words. You may think that he is making up the "context" after the fact BUT when you make a little "You Tube" video stating that Haley claims that autistic children are mad ... You lie. That's all, Kev.
BronzeDog wrote:
"We need good evidence to change our minds, not absurd conspiracy theories".
Actually, the good evidence is in the children. Look to the kids for your answers, BronzeDog. You also have the opportunity to look at the unvaccinated children for more evidence. It should be relatively easy.
Now, for all your other "conspiracy talk"... I'm just not interested. You can look to cigarrette companies, Semmelweis, Global Warming concerns, etc. to see that sometimes what appears to initially be a "conspiracy theory" is really not a conspiracy theory at all.
Perhaps your own children with autism did not have any adverse events with vaccines. That's fine. I accept that. There are many factors involved here.
Kev wrote:
"We should be free to call any subsection of society 'mad'. Black children for example. Who'd object to that? And we should refer to maybe Jews or Indians as 'trailor dwelling coo-coos' - its OK, they're different. That makes it OK.
And hey - those gays? No human can look at them you know. Their mummies and daddies abandoned them in the hell of homosexuality. You can't miss gays - they're like sexual train wrecks.
What? I'm being a bigot? No, no, no you misunderstand - I'm all for educating them. That's advocacy. But asking them to be recognised as valid human beings without perjorative labels? That's crazy talk! Everyone knows George Bush and Tony Blair bribed people to keep this quiet"!
Kev,
Here is a list from Jonathan in regards to fallacies. Go through the list and figure out where your above rant fits in. I don't have time.
http://interverbal.blogspot.com/2006/01/review-of-logic-fallacies-_1136…
"You may think that he is making up the "context" after the fact BUT when you make a little "You Tube" video stating that Haley claims that autistic children are mad ... You lie. That's all, Kev."
Oh man. OK, lets break it down for you - when someone uses words, I assume they mean those words.]
When they later retro-fit those words with embellishments I examine those embellishments and judge them.
I don't believe him. He was caught out. But you carry on defending him Sue. You have no autistic kids so its no skin off your nose right?
"Go through the list and figure out where your above rant fits in. I don't have time."
Righto Sue ;o) time to post three comments but no time to retro-fit interpretations.
Something of a recurring theme :o)
"I don't believe him".
Exactly, Kev. That's my point. YOU don't believe him. Say that. Don't put words in his mouth and claim that he said that autistic children are mad. Easy. You're welcome.
Say that. Don't put words in his mouth and claim that he said that autistic children are mad.
Who's putting words in his mouth Sue? He called autism Mad child disease. If I call you a COW will you forgive me if I later claim to have meant Chronically Obstinate Woman?
Boyd Haley called autism "Mad Child Disease"... here are a couple of references:
http://www.oism.org/cdp/july2004.html
and
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/9/13/112130.shtml
There are lots of other websites with that quote... both from the the anti-mercury folks and from neurodiversity types.
"Who's putting words in his mouth Sue? He called autism Mad child disease. If I call you a COW will you forgive me if I later claim to have meant Chronically Obstinate Woman"?
I couldn't care less what you call me, Clone :) Kev doesn't believe Haley. Fine. He's entitled. The fact that he wants to misrepresent what Haley said is typical. That's all. How are your autistic children?
Common sense;
You might be interested in Kevin C's blog, right now.
Anne O Maley
"Mr. T: Hey boy, there are DSM-IV diagnosed autistic Amish with an identified likely genetic etiology."
hmm.. likely!?!
You're likely to be a pain in the ass.
Why don't you go staighten your hair and come back when you're sure.
Newsflash:
Tired of being you? Why not try the new "transformation pill". It'll give you a whole new perspective on life. Here's what we've got so far:
The black pill
The jewish pill
The DSM-IV autistic pill
The gay pill
The asshole pill
Which one would you take kev?
Please place in order of preference.
Are you suggesting that these are things that need to be treated with drugs?
Or are you being a clueless twit?
Do you actually think that autism should be referred to as "Mad Child" disease? I have included references where Boyd Haley is applauded for describing them as such... yet no one responded. He may be a chemist, but his bread and butter comes from charging for money for dubious tests and cures in his "Altcorp" company.
Do you really think it is a good idea to chemically castrate chilren with Lupron, which is being suggested by the Geiers (with a patent! Oh, and their very own review board so they don't have to answer embarrassing questions like why Geier the Younger refers to himself as a biochemist with only a BA in chemistry)?
Ayoub is on record as saying that vaccines are part of an Illuminati plot. Here is a large file where you can read all about his wacky ideas:
http://www.delpshopepage.org/Mercury,%20Immunizations%20and%20the%20Glo…
Also, why is that those who charge desperate parents as much as $800 an hour for an office visit considered "heroes"... yet parents and autistic adults who try to point that there is a problem with these "doctors" are called scum?
hmm.. likely!?!
You're likely to be a pain in the ass.
Why don't you go staighten your hair and come back when you're sure.
You forgot the rest.
Jedi Murphy_1000: No there isn't, it can't be autism [waves hand - jedi mind trick thing]
Mr. T: Okay there isn't.
Wow, it works!
You see, your lame Jedi mind trick response worked. I was wrong. Even though there are autistic Amish, and the genetic etiology has been identified, although not completely understood with respect to development, it can't be autism. The researchers obviously goofed. Even though they documented it as DSM-IV autism, the specific genetic components, and identified carriers in the population, it must be something else. Perhaps it's some sort of vaccine deficiency, hmmm maybe not, they did identify the specific genetics and brain structure differences.
Damn, now I'm confused.
Yoda O Maley
Give me the link to what you are referring so me can look I can.
HCN
Welcome to the "pity party". Mary's whooping cough vaccine must have been a dud.
You make absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Who is Mary?
The problem with the pertussis vaccine is that it only about 80% effective, and does wear out after a few years. That is why it is now recommended that adolescents receive the Tdap vaccine:
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/pert.pdf
Unfortunately, alarmists decided that the vaccine was worse than the disease and the herd immunity decreased. This caused an epidemic in my county during a time when my son was medically vulnerable. It is still a growing problem:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/09/060913-whooping-cough.h…
Could you try to make at lease one cogent statement?
HNC,
Are you suggesting that these are things that need to be treated with drugs?
The fact that you think that tells me you're a half wit.
HCN wrote:
"Unfortunately, alarmists decided that the vaccine was worse than the disease and the herd immunity decreased. This caused an epidemic in my county during a time when my son was medically vulnerable".
I somewhat remember have this "discussion" with you previously. I do recall that you opted out of the DPT for your son due to his having seizures or some other condition. Considering what we now know about the DPT that was probably a very good idea. Obviously, the DTaP is "safer".
Here's my question to you. At what point do I get to protect my children as you did (with the DTP)? As you probably know, my daughter developed 2 autoimmune diseases before the age of 2. One of those diseases being type 1 diabetes -- certainly not something to laugh at. My middle son reacted to pretty much every single vaccine that he received. At what point, HCN, do I get to protect my babies as you did with yours? Why am I a threat to society and you are someone with a "medically vulnerable" child? My children are equally as important to me as yours are to you, I assure you of that.
If you were my pediatrician would you feel comfortable signing something for me stating that autoimmune diseases are in no way related to vaccinations? Mine wasn't.
In what way is Type 1 diabetes related to vaccines? Isn't it genetic?
If your son did react to a vaccine, then it is obvious that he would not get any more and would have to rely on herd immunity.
Something folks like you are trying to reduce in the population.
If you have medically fragile who should get neither the vaccine NOR the disease... then you are doing them a disservice by campaigning for the end of vaccines and the reduction of herd immunity.
You are leaving them open to what happened to these two boys:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1061838,00.html
By the way, next month at his annual medical appointment my son will be getting both a flu shot (which he gets earlier than others because of his heart condition) and the Tdap. He may even get the meningicoccal vaccine also (last year there was a shortage).
While we are on anecdotes... my youngest was the only one to get HepB at birth. So far she has been the healthiest and the brightest.
Sue M... I found a recent article on Type 1 Diabetes that you might be interested in:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2350/7/54
I think it would be in your kids' best interest that you make sure anyone who comes near them is fully vaccinated (or at least has a very good reason not to be, like the boys in the Timesonline article).
Also... I just recently found out that one of the law schools in my area has seminars for parents of kids with diabilities. I just signed up for an all day seminar about transitioning after high school for disabled kids at a cost of $50. Parents here might want to call up their local law schools or state bar associations to see if something like that is available.
HCN wrote:
"In what way is Type 1 diabetes related to vaccines? Isn't it genetic"?
Not exactly, HCN. I have yet to read/hear from one scientist who claims that type 1 diabetes is genetic ONLY. Due to the very large increase of the disease over the past 20 years or so, the thought is genetic with environmental triggers. Even your article that you post stated this:
"The risk of developing T1D is determined by a complex interaction between multiple genetic and environmental factors".
In fact, in my opinion, it is very similar to the rise in cases of autism without the benefit of certain people saying that the increase is due to "better diagnosis". Of course, "better diagnosis" doesn't work with type 1 diabetes unlike autism".
"If your son did react to a vaccine, then it is obvious that he would not get any more and would have to rely on herd immunity".
Right. That's the problem, HCN, there are way too many children like my son, who react adversely to vaccinations. Now what?
"If you have medically fragile who should get neither the vaccine NOR the disease... then you are doing them a disservice by campaigning for the end of vaccines and the reduction of herd immunity".
Disservice to my own children or not, HCN, I care about kids whose medical histories indicate that loading them up with vaccines may not be a good idea. Forgive me.
"While we are on anecdotes... my youngest was the only one to get HepB at birth. So far she has been the healthiest and the brightest".
Interesting. Unfortunately we cancel each other out. I have a 2 1/2 year old little boy who I stopped vaccinating at 4 months old. He is BY FAR my healthiest. He hasn't had to go to the doctors (other than for height/weight checks) in 2 years -- other than 1 time when I thought he may have had an ear infection. He actually didn't, that was the 1 time I took him to the ped for a sick visit (after age 4 months). I can't tell you how many times I was there with my older two. Never mind the days/weeks that I was in the hospital with them (both of them).
HCN wrote:
"I think it would be in your kids' best interest that you make sure anyone who comes near them is fully vaccinated (or at least has a very good reason not to be, like the boys in the Timesonline article)".
I read the article that you reference here. It is very sad, no doubt. The boys were also on immunosuppressive drugs leaving them more at risk. All in all, a difficult situation. Children are injured by the disease but also no doubt injured by the vaccine. I did find the last case quite interesting. The mother talking about her 20 month old daughter who caught measles at 5 months... that little girl is not talking now and the mother is concerned? Things that make you go hummmm? Measles, no talking... measles vaccine, loss of speech?
"Parents here might want to call up their local law schools or state bar associations to see if something like that is available".
Considering the numbers we are looking at now in terms of children with autism, they better start doing something.
"Environmental" causes do not equate to vaccines. Please provide some evidence that vaccines have anything to do with Type 1 Diabetes.
You say " I care about kids whose medical histories indicate that loading them up with vaccines may not be a good idea."
Which medical histories? How do you tell if a child is safer from getting pertussis as an infant versus getting the DTaP? Which kid is going to be disabled from HiB versus reacting to the vaccine?
I have asked you before which vaccine is more dangerous than the disease... and you have replied "all of them". So answer this question: Where is the scientific documentation that says vaccines cause more damage than the actual disase? (I would also like to remind you that websites, congressional testimony, news articles and references to the journal "Medical Hypothesis" do not count)
(while I'm on questions... has Kevin_1000 ever made a cogent statement?)
HCN wrote:
"Environmental" causes do not equate to vaccines. Please provide some evidence that vaccines have anything to do with Type 1 Diabetes".
You certainly can't rule it out, can you? The question YOU asked was "Isn't it genetic". I was simply answering you that no, it is not only genetic. There are more factors involved. Sorry for trying to enlighten you to reality.
"Which medical histories? How do you tell if a child is safer from getting pertussis as an infant versus getting the DTaP? Which kid is going to be disabled from HiB versus reacting to the vaccine"?
That's always the question, isn't it? How did you know that you were correct in holding off on the pertussis portion of the DTP?
"I have asked you before which vaccine is more dangerous than the disease... and you have replied "all of them".
I said that, really? Can you give me the link so that I can read it. The truth is that I believe that this is very complex. Perhaps most children do fine with all vaccines. There is also the reality that many do not. Unfortunately it's not black and white here. I would appreciate seeing where I wrote your quote above. Thanks.
Sue M said: "How did you know that you were correct in holding off on the pertussis portion of the DTP?"
It was the doctor's decision... not mine. He was going on the advice of that time. If my son were about five years younger, the advice more than likely would have been different.
Oh, you were right... You did give an answer other than "all of them". You said the flu (even though it is only recommended for children, and it is available without thimerosal):
http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/?p=295#comment-3675
My apologies. I mostly got the "all of them" answer on JREF.
So who DO you recommend follow the standard pediatric vaccine schedule? Who sets the criteria? How do you determine which baby is protected against pertussis and Hib versus the one that should rely on herd immunity?
"Oh, you were right... You did give an answer other than "all of them". You said the flu (even though it is only recommended for children, and it is available without thimerosal):
http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/?p=295#comment-3675
My apologies. I mostly got the "all of them" answer on JREF".
So I see that you belong to the Kev Leitch school of twisting words where taking people out of context or completely making things up to suit your cause is acceptable. At the very least you admit it. Flu shot is a bit different than "all of them" isn't it? Now, that's not to say that for some children (like my own) the vaccine may be more dangerous than the disease but I try not to lump everyone together like that. We know that not every baby is born with an impeccable immune system. We need to stop treating them as if they do.
"So who DO you recommend follow the standard pediatric vaccine schedule? Who sets the criteria? How do you determine which baby is protected against pertussis and Hib versus the one that should rely on herd immunity"?
I'm not the one to ask about that. If doctors and government agencies would take their heads out of their butts for a short time perhaps they could make some sensible decisions in that regard.
Sue said "I'm not the one to ask about that. If doctors and government agencies would take their heads out of their butts for a short time perhaps they could make some sensible decisions in that regard."
But wait!!!! You know more than the doctors and researchers! You know that answer... you just don't want to be on record with it. Evasion noted.
Dear Sue,
If you think that the "doctors and government agencies would take their heads out of their butts for a short time perhaps they could make some sensible decisions in that regard."... The please review this list of vaccine recommendations:
http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2021f.htm
and the answers given in these pages:
http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2021.htm
Make sure to get back to the authors of all those papers to explain their lapses in "sensible decisions". Be sure to remind them of all the dire consequences that occur when giving vaccines to the wrong child (like one who may develop diabetes or some other condition). Make sure they benefit from your obvious qualification of not having your "head in your butt".
HCN wrote:
"But wait!!!! You know more than the doctors and researchers! You know that answer... you just don't want to be on record with it. Evasion noted".
I know more than doctors and researchers who have their heads up their butts but not the ones with common sense. As for your "evasion noted" comment. Perhaps if people like you didn't completely lie and put words in my mouth then I might engage you more on the topic. You say anything around here about the dangers of certain vaccines and you are instantly an anti-vaccine, conspiracy theorist, illuminati freak...
HCN
Doctors/researchers don't give a shit about minority statistics (or aren't paid to) i.e kids who die from vaccines etc. The evidence of this is the research they don't do to protect the minority. So it's left to the parent to make an informed decision NOT you or anyone else. Remember, we're the guinea pigs here. Authority and doctors are not GOD although some of them would like you to think so.
Where did I lie?
I did make an error about who said "all of them", and apologized for it.
More on topic:
Is it a lie to say that Boyd Haley called autism "Mad Child Disease"?
Is it a lie to say that David Ayoub believes in the Illuminati and that vaccines have nefarious purposes?
Is it a lie to say that Dr. Geier was refused as an "expert witness" in court because he did not have real data, and was really not an "expert"?
Is it a lie to say that JB Handley claimed that autism is only mercury poisoning?
Is it a lie to say that Andrew Wakefield used children in his study that were provided by the lawyer who was paying for the results?
Please specify exactly where those statements are in error. And while you are at it, tell us exactly who does NOT have their "head up their butt".
"Where did I lie?
I did make an error about who said "all of them", and apologized for it".
Had I not caught you in your lie/error, there would be people here who still believed you. Here's the thing, HCN... the next time that you "quote" someone, make it accurate. That's all. As for the rest of the things that you reference... I prefer not to answer you. After all, I can't be certain what you have taken out of context or lied about :) Plus, there's no use banging my head against a wall with you.
Sue said "After all, I can't be certain what you have taken out of context or lied about".
Well, I really wanted to know what I "lied" about, because I really don't know what statements I made that were outright lies. I even posted links (to the limits of the spam filters of this blog) to support my statements. If I make an error I am quite willing to correct that error (as I have demonstrated). But I cannot do that if you do not tell me.
Also, I am still wondering what is the fuss about the video at the top of the page. I am willing to accept the Rollins quote might be taken out of context, but the other stuff is pretty much well referenced. So could someone please answer these questions:
Is it a lie to say that Boyd Haley called autism "Mad Child Disease"?
Is it a lie to say that David Ayoub believes in the Illuminati and that vaccines have nefarious purposes?
Is it a lie to say that Dr. Geier was refused as an "expert witness" in court because he did not have real data, and was really not an "expert"?
Is it a lie to say that JB Handley claimed that autism is only mercury poisoning?
Is it a lie to say that Andrew Wakefield used children in his study that were provided by the lawyer who was paying for the results?
HCN: "Do you really think it is a good idea to chemically castrate chilren with Lupron, which is being suggested by the Geiers (with a patent! Oh, and their very own review board so they don't have to answer embarrassing questions like why Geier the Younger refers to himself as a biochemist with only a BA in chemistry)?"
Actually... it's a BA in biology, which is very specifically lacking in the biochemistry needed to do postgrad work in biology ... it's one of those BA where there's a major in something for teaching in schools... or doing science journalism...
Nobody with such a BA (Ox-bridge BAs notwithstanding... almost all Ox-bridge first degrees are BAs) could possibly be qualified to lay claim to being a biochemist.
Okay, HCN... I'll do it...
HCN: "Is it a lie to say that Boyd Haley called autism 'Mad Child Disease'?"
Nope. He said that.
HCN: "Is it a lie to say that David Ayoub believes in the Illuminati and that vaccines have nefarious purposes?"
Seems to be true, so... nope. Not a lie.
HCN: "Is it a lie to say that Dr. Geier was refused as an 'expert witness' in court because he did not have real data, and was really not an 'expert'?"
Given that Geier Snr was refused as an EW for those reasons... nope, not a lie there, either.
HCN: "Is it a lie to say that JB Handley claimed that autism is only mercury poisoning?"
Well, he has said that. No lie there...
HCN: "Is it a lie to say that Andrew Wakefield used children in his study that were provided by the lawyer who was paying for the results?"
Ah, well... this was interesting when it was investigated... turned out that the sample was not randomised... it was, if not completely, then certainly mostly composed of children from the Legal Aid funded case group.
Anyone wanna call on this one?
No?
Okay then...
HCN, you're not a liar.
Poor Sue.
Thanks David! You're a sweetie!