A little more than a year ago, an autistic boy named Abubakar Tariq Nadama died of a cardiac arrest due to hypocalcemia at the hands of an "alternative medicine" practitioner named Dr. Roy Kerry while chelation therapy was being administered to him intravenously. Dr. Kerry, who trained as an ENT doctor, now bills himself as an "allergist" and an alternative medicine practitioner. Tariq's tragic and unnecessary death lead to a round of posterior covering by mercury militia enabler David Kirby and a rather blithe acceptance and dismissal by some who routinely go ballistic whenever someone undergoing conventional treatments dies as a result of that treatment.
Finally, it now appears that justice, long delayed, is finally coming for Dr. Kerry:
PITTSBURGH (AP) -- State officials have filed disciplinary charges against a doctor who prescribed a therapy for people with lead poisoning to a 5-year-old autistic boy who had a heart attack and died.
Dr. Roy E. Kerry, 68, of Greenville, was charged Sept. 8 with six counts that include engaging in unprofessional conduct and breaching the standard of care. Abubakar Tariq Nadama died in August 2005 following his third chelation treatment at Kerry's clinic, the Advanced Integrative Medicine Center in Portersville, about 25 miles northwest of Pittsburgh.
This is good, but it still irritates the heck out of me to see the nature of the charges. Like the CDC's emphasizing the use of the "wrong" chelation agent (there is no "right" chelation agent for autism, because chelation therapy doesn't do anything for autism, because, as more and more evidence shows, there is no good epidemiological or scientific evidence that autism is caused by "mercury poisoning"), the State of Pennsylvania makes the same mistake:
The Department of State alleges, among other things, that Kerry prescribed an IV push -- meaning the drugs are administered in one dose intravenously -- despite warnings that this method can be lethal. He also prescribed the wrong formula of the drug, officials said.
No, no, no. The use of chelation therapy to "treat" autism that leads to serious complications should be sufficient cause in and of itself for action. The formulation used isn't the issue (although certainly Kerry was reckless and incompetent in choosing disodium EDTA). The use of a non-evidence-based, ineffective, and potentially dangerous treatment is. Couple that with Dr. Kerry's apparent cluelessness in giving the "wrong" chelation agent and you have a recipe for disaster. It's hard not to conclude either that Dr. Kerry is a quack using potentially dangerous and unproven treatments for autism or that he's an incompetent doctor who, in trying to use a relatively safe but unproven and almost certainly ineffective treatment for autism, screwed it up and used the wrong chelator, leading to the death of a child. Either way, it astounds me that this guy has kept his medical license thus far, and that it's taken 14 months for the state to bring disciplinary charges against him.
And what are the potential penalties for Dr. Kerry? Far too lenient, I'm afraid:
If the State Board of Medicine finds any of the charges to be true, Kerry could have his medical license revoked, suspended or restricted and could pay up to $10,000 in fines for each violation.
A maximum of $60,000 fines and revocation of his medical license for the death of a child due to blatant quackery? Does that sound proportionate to the offense to you? And Kerry has even been allowed to continue practicing for 14 months plus however long the legal proceedings take from this point forward. One can only hope that Tariq's parents sue for malpractice, as they would very likely win. One phrase in this article in particular leapt out at me, though:
Some people believe autism can be linked to a mercury-containing preservative once commonly used in childhood vaccines. Chelation therapy has been advocated as a remedy.
"Some people believe"? That about sums up the entirety of the evidence supporting the concept that chelation therapy can do anything to help children with autism. Unfortunately, in this world where evidence doesn't matter and alternative medical therapies do not even have to show biological plausibility to attract research funding, particularly from the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM), even a therapy with so little evidence to suggest even a hint of efficacy can attract funding. Yes, I'm talking about chelation therapy for autism, for which a new clinical trial has been opened. Surprisingly (and disappointingly), the study is not being sponsored by NCCAM, as would be expected. Instead, it's being run by the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH):
Chelation of metals is widely used in the community to treat individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD), with some surveys estimating that 1 in 12 children with autism have undergone chelation. This widespread use reflects the hypothesis that many cases of ASD are caused by exposure to thimerosal, an ethylmercury-based compound used previously in the US as a vaccine preservative for routine childhood immunizations. The prevalent use of chelation therapy stands in stark contrast with the lack of scientific or clinical evidence of efficacy, and creates a public health imperative for empiric data. Thus we propose a controlled trial of the effects of chelation on the core behavioral symptoms and overall functioning of children with ASD. The present investigation is a double-blind, randomized placebo-controlled study of the oral chelating agent meso-2,3-dimercaptosuccinic acid (DMSA; succimer) among 120 children, ages four to ten years, who meet criteria for ASD. Pre- and post-treatment behavioral ratings will be used to evaluate the efficacy of chelation. In addition, children will undergo comprehensive medical history, physical examination and laboratory analyses.
Our objective is to quantify differences in behavioral functioning between the chelation treatment group and the placebo control group. Analysis of mercury levels before and during the course of treatment will be used to confirm the expected DMSA-induced excretion of mercury and to identify differences among children in the extent of excretion. Our primary hypothesis is that, on average and relative to the control group, children with ASD who undergo chelation with DMSA will show greater improvements in communication and social behavior.
It makes me wonder if reforming NCCAM (or even the more radical step of dismantling NCCAM and folding its research activities into the relevant NIH institutes) would have any effect at all on the funding of studies of alternative medicine therapies based on unsupported hypotheses. The concept that a therapy need not have biological plausibility or compelling preclinical evidence to suggest efficacy to be eligible to be studied in a large clinical trial seems to have metastasized beyond NCCAM into other NIH institutes.
I'll sum up the rationale of this trial very succinctly. It's very much like the statement in the article about Tariq Nadama above and goes something like this: "Some" people believe that mercury in vaccines causes autism, despite the lack of clinical, basic science, or epidemiological evidence to support the hypothesis that it does and the fact that each successive study over the last couple of years has failed to find a link ("the prevalent use of chelation therapy stands in stark contrast with the lack of scientific or clinical evidence of efficacy"). These people are a pain in our rears and believe in this treatment with an almost religious fervor. So we should waste all sorts of money doing a clinical trial in the hopes of showing that the proposed therapy works no better than placebo, and maybe that will get these people to leave us alone.
Yes, I think I've probably paraphrased the rationale pretty accurately. Unfortunately, it seems to be the rationale for a lot of trials in alternative medicine these days.
Normally, I would almost sympathize with such a viewpoint and would support such a trial just to provide objective evidence. Indeed, the basic randomized design of the trial seems sound enough to test the hypothesis that chelation positively impacts behavioral parameters in autism.The problem is the premise more than the design. The hypothesis itself is what's dubious and unsupported by existing evidence. Worse, this trial strikes me as unethical. Chelation therapy is a treatment for mercury poisoning, and there is no evidence that mercury levels are elevated in autistic children. Indeed, there is evidence that blood and hair levels of mercury are no different in children with autism or autistic spectrum disorder than they are in children without such a diagnosis. In addition, one of the inclusion criteria (detectable blood mercury level greater than 0.1 mcg/dl) overlaps so much with the reference level for mercury of 1 mcg/dl in unaffected children that it is clear that the vast majority of the study subjects will have in essence normal mercury levels. Indeed, children with grossly elevated mercury levels are explicitly excluded from the study, presumably because they clearly need treatment and randomizing any of them to a placebo group would be unethical. Another problem with the study that practically leaps out of the text is that it excludes patients who have had previous chelation therapy. While this is a reasonable, indeed almost mandatory, exclusion criterion on a strictly scientific basis, in the real world the very parents attracted to this study will be ones who have already chelated their children. These parents are unlikely to have any interest in taking a chance of being in the placebo group and thus are unlikely to sign up. Other parents who aren't true believers will be a lot less likely to want to expose their children to treatment that is so implausible and that has so little evidence to suggest efficacy--that is, unless the NIMH pushes the study.
Mike Stanton summed it up well:
Note that autistic children with heavy metal poisoning are not eligible for this study. They need treatment and it would be unthinkable to put them on a placebo. But this means that to be eligible for a study in which you may be treated for heavy metal poisoning you must be completely healthy and not have heavy metal poisoning.
Autistic children with traces of heavy metals in their blood that are no different from the levels in NT children are going to be subject to unnecessary medical treatment to see if it alters their behaviour. Well, it would certainly alter mine!
I wonder why they are only recruiting autistic children? Perhaps NT children with the same reference levels of mercury would also benefit from a dose of chelation therapy. But what self respecting parent of a healthy child would submit their child to that? And that goes for the parents of healthy autistic children as well.
Indeed. It almost makes me think that I spoke too soon when I lamented about institutional review boards' (IRBs) overreach that results in their frequent tendency to make research with a low risk of harm to patients too burdensome. This NIMH trial is an example where the IRB apparently didn't go far enough, didn't ask the hard questions, and didn't put the researchers on the spot as they should have. After all, the examples that I gave of IRB excesses were for studies that did not involve giving an actual drug to patients; they merely involved questionnaires and interview studies. The NIMH study involves giving a drug designed to lower mercury levels to children, most of whom by definition in the inclusion criteria, will not have evidence of elevated mercury levels and indeed explicitly excludes children who do! (On the other hand, I suppose, I could choose to look at this travesty of a trial as evidence that supports my point that all this increasing aggressiveness by IRBs do not necessarily protect patient safety.) In any case, I can't believe this study in its current form through a well-functioning IRB. Certainly, it never would have passed muster at our IRB, nor would a second NIMH study being started that will subject some autistic children to invasive procedures like lumbar punctures for unclear reasons.
I think Mike Stanton described the strange ethics of this study quite well:
There is a final ethical consideration I would like to raise.
Parents approach DAN! practitioners with a false belief about their child's health, seeking treatment for that child. The DAN! practitioner shares their belief and provides the treatment.
Parents approach a NIMH doctor with a false belief about their child's health, seeking treatment for that child. The NIMH doctor does not share their belief. In fact they have to establish that the child is not ill. But they still provide the treatment requested by the parent.
Who has made a moral decision here; the DAN! practitioner or the NIMH doctor?
You could almost ask the same question, inserting the name of Dr. Roy Kerry in the place of the DAN! practitioner. In fact, there's almost no need to make such a substitution; Dr. Kerry is a DAN! practitioner. I'll even go one step further. I'll give Dr. Kerry the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is a True Believer, that he honestly thought he was doing Tariq good, and that he was sincere. I'll assume that his motives were good, but that he probably didn't know better.
NIMH, on the other hand, should know better than to set up a trial based on a dubious hypothesis backed by no convincing basic scientific or clinical evidence that would justify a trial of this magnitude. More's the pity.
The NIMH trial is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. I would not be shocked to learn that political pressure was applied to open said trial, considering that some freaks in Congress actually believe the idiotic autism=mercury connection.
If only the Nadama charges were criminal.
The frustrating thing about the chelation study is that NIMH seems to have the naive belief that if the results show no benefit from chelation, the autism/mercury adherents will say, "Well! I guess we were wrong!" and renounce chelation.
Nooooo waaaaay.
They've already started carping about how it doesn't mimic this or that proprietary protocol. And even if NIMH specifically tested every single chelator/supplement/HBOT/Lupron/naltrexone/MB12 combination they could come up with, and still found no benefit, the mercury militia would claim the numbers were cooked.
There's no winning here, only throwing money down a rat-hole while enabling the whackjobs to label their nuttery with the imprimatur of "NIH-tested."
I seem to remember that JB Handley was using EDTA on his son. I wonder if he'd be defending DAN! and the whole cheatlation quackery business if his son had been harmed.
He's been harmed financially but not enough to make difference. I guess the other poor suckers who bought into the Buttar non-transdermal chelator are SOL. No "Sorry about that folks" no full page ads denouncing Rashid Buttar as part of an evil conspiracy.
Maybe he'll wise up one day and form Quackery Rescue or Put Science First dotcom. Probably not. His pride is greater than his conscience.
It is puzzling why NIMH would investigate something that is being proclaimed as truth by those who are selling the solution, yet has no real scientific basis as judged by conventional scientific literature.
I can only surmise that the organization is trying to conclusively demonstrate a negative in an effort to assuage the anxiety of some parents and to reduce the perceived momentum of a small group of biomedical extremists who advocate all sorts of chelation, IR sauna, antiviral, RNA, and high-dose vitamin therapies. I agree with Mike Stanton's assessment of the murky ethics associated with experimenting on children in order to prove something that cannot be proven. And I can't help but think that at some level people who advocate this experiment feel that these "empty shells" and "train wrecks" called autistic children are expendible: that a child would be better off being hurt during the course of an experiment rather than have to continue life as is.
It is also puzzling how a tiny, but well-funded group can push a financial agenda through an organization dedicated to scientific research and the mental health of american citizens. Will the $cientologists, who have a massive financial stake in detoxification quackery and who certainly could have been involved in the pressuring of government officials to make this current study happen, push an aluminum angle? If so, will NIMH bow to their wishes?
kandiyohi is right, the goalposts will shift irrespective of the outcome of this experiment. The only thing that won't change is that certain entreprenures will continue to hawk their snake oils and make some fairly amazing amounts of money. In that light, it is exceedingly sad that the death of a young boy is being pinned soley to the misreading of a bottle's label when, imo, the frenetic, yet blind drive for an immediate solution to autism is equally complicit.
I think all skeptical readers need to be aware that there may be more of a Scientology and Unification Church (Moonie) connection with all this alt med autism noise than is immediately recognizable.
Baxter Berle, is one of the kids that JB Handley of "Generation Rescue" is promoting as a child cured of autism by alt med (chelation and vitamins and diet) was probably de-diagnosed autistic (found to be normal after all the treatments) by staff at a Scientology run school. He and younger brother attend a school called, Learning Castle in So Cal.
Someone told me that the Scientology schools have low standards for what they expect the students to learn, making it easier to proclaim a child's school problems to be nil. At any rate, the video shows a child who seems to have a recognizable genetic disorder. He does not look normal. He does not act like a normal child, if I can use my own son as an example of a normal boy to compare Baxter Berle with. He acts like an autism spectrum child who is older than a toddler. Autistic children can have very different paths of development, and that's without chelation or special diets. Some of them appear to become non-autistic, but the fact is that the autistic traits can return, too, usually with more stress in the teen years.
www.childrenscornerschool.com/video/bax3.wmv
www.childrenscornerschool.com/video/baxter.mov
Here a blogger shares two videos of teens who are being sold as examples of "cured" former autistic kids.
http://autismnaturalvariation.blogspot.com/2006/10/autistic-teens-being…
These teens look exactly like autism spectrum teens.
If you hear tales of "cured" autistic kids, you need to be very skeptical. Some kids who are diagnosed as autistic as toddlers are not autistic at all. It happens quite a bit as accurate diagnosis is really rather difficult, contrary to what some say. Experts work very hard at improving their accuracy, and still lament that they are not perfect at identifying who is autistic and who is not, especially at younger ages.
I agree, Orac, that the Nadama's ought to go for a big malpractice settlement. I hope criminal charges against Kerry haven't been ruled out.
Interesting that the Nadamas seem to have disavowed their allegiance to Dr. Kerry. In the beginning their stance was that they regretted the outcome but didn't regret embarking on chelation and, in fact, would do it all again - see the mom quoted here: http://www.autismwebsite.com/ARI/treatment/chelationsafety.htm
The Nadama's lawyer specializes in medical malpractice
http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20030226lewinski0226p3.asp
Chances are they will be pursuing a civil suit, I'm not sure if Kerry carried malpractice insurance but I doubt John Gismondi took the case pro bono.
http://www.autismconnect.org/news.asp?section=00010001&itemtype=news&id…
[...] John P. Gismondi, a Pittsburgh attorney who specialises in medical malpractice and who is representing Mawra Nadama and her husband, a high-ranking doctor in Britain, said the family supported Clark's strategy.
"It's a year later and they remain in the dark and wondering what happened. Anything that sheds light on the situation is something that's useful and productive," Gismondi said.
He said the progress of the investigation "has been slower than they would have anticipated or liked, but they are respectful of the process and they understand that these things can take time. They want to see it play out."
He said a civil lawsuit was "certainly an option that's being seriously considered" and he acknowledged that the pending criminal investigation was "influencing timing to some extent." Pennsylvania statutes allow two years for the filing of a civil claim.
Gismondi said he hoped the attorney-general's advisory panel would help investigators to determine why Tariq was given the wrong chelation agent. "There's no doubt he didn't get the right stuff. The question is why," he said.
I agree that it would be better to nail him for his true crime, which is not killing a patient through a godawful genuine mistake, but killing him with an unproven and dangerous treatment whose rationale runs counter to reason. But nailing him for incompetence within his own terms of reference is almost as satisfactory.
At least at the end of the NIMH trial, mainstream medicine will have something to hold up to parents wondering which way to jump and say "It has been tested and does not work", which sounds much more definite than "All the theoretical evidence is against it", which statement sadly HAS been proven wrong in too many cases.
You know what ticks me off about this chelation trial? Adults will be making healthy children suffer by administering them chelators, and there is precious little promise of any benefit to the children. How about the researchers dig up a different kind of anecdotal evidence than the sort dished out to them by the detoxification zealots. Go to the Yahoo! Autism-Mercury group (it's public) and run a search of the term "chelation" in combination with words and phrases like "gut" or "regression" or "healing crisis" (newage-speak for an adverse reaction) and you'll find more than a few tales of the kinds of experiences children have once the chelators go to work.
"The use of a non-evidence-based, ineffective, and potentially dangerous treatment is."
Is this the same non-evidence-based treatment that Orac told us was the proper treatment for mercury poisoning?
Is it the same treatment that mainstream medicine has been using for over 60 years? (Yup, we know Orac claims it won't help autistic people.)
This is just another absurd attempt to talk people out of helping their children.
Kathleen, Detoxification "zealots" watch their children improve. Has your bashing of the people who taught us how to help our children helped any children?
"Adults will be making healthy children suffer by administering them chelators..." said Kathleen. Children with autism are not healthy mentally, Kathleen. That's why there is a name for their condition. It's abnormal, not healthy. It's not a reason to celebrate. It's a reason to help your child.
JB-
Why didn't chelation months after exposure help the victims of the 1970's mercury poisoning in Iraq? Why didn't you warn Bush that you can't have a stable government in a nation full of mercury poisoned adults?
I've seen the videos of the recovered kids-they look and act just like my non-chelated child. They look like me and my probably ASD brother did at that age. Your son is the treatment group, my kid the control. If you hadn't given him enough seroquel to cause tartive diskinesia, he may have improved faster.
You won't listen to me because all women are stupid. Why did you let your wife delay chelation for 2 years? Does she maybe control the money in your house?
John,
Why haven't you tried intravenous EDTA therapy? Too risky? I know you've said you are too cautious to use Lupron but that may change if Sam is still autistic in a year or too.
So what's your take on Roy Kerry? Another fine DAN! doctor trying to help kids or murderer? What he did was OK, right? His only mistake was to use the wrong drug. It's OK to inject autistic children with EDTA as long as it's the calcium complex. That's what you've said, isn't it? So what's stopping you? Aren't you committed to removing every last atom of mercury?
And you call yourself a chelation zealot. alpha lipoic acid is for wusses. We all make that naturally. If you want to step up to the big leagues, you'll need a harsh chemical like EDTA to do it right. Only powerful chelators will suck the autism (an life) out of your children.
What do you say tough guy? Why aren't you using EDTA if you are so quick to defend Roy Kerry?
NM; Pointing out that chelation is the proper treatemtn for mercury poisoning is not defending Kerry.. There is no defense for his malpractice. EDTA does not chelate mercury so I won't be using it and I won't be advising anyone else to use it. People who condemn chelation based on Kerry's mistake should have their heads examined.
The protocol by the man who knows more about chelation than anyone else calls for using frequent low doses, going slow, and not harming your kid.
BTW, do you think Kathleen will give me an answer? I'm still waiting for her to find me all those 75 year old autistics.
Ruth; If your kid was similar to the way mine used to be, using him as a control would make sense. But, you see, I don't care about controls and reporting anything to scientific journals. I just want my kid to get better. Then I'll be able to get my golf game back in shape.
We waited two years to chelate because we couldn't afford to pay the doctor and insurance wouldn't cover it. After I learned about Andy Cutler and the Autism-Mercury group, I was able to convince my wife that I could manage the chelation without the doc.. My son's much better off. Maybe you should take up the issue of Seroquel to the psychiatrists who prescribe it rather than expecting parents with no education in science to do their jobs for them.
Oh, I see. Chelation is bad unless it's the chelation protocol you follow. Got it.
Would you say other doctors who use EDTA are guilty of malpractice as well?
How would you know if EDTA chelates mercury or not, or if it's any more or less efficient than alpha lipoic acid and dimercaptosuccinic acid? Isn't your opinion simply blind faith in Andy Cutler?
You do advise other parents to use the chelation chemicals you prefer, right? How do you know you aren't advising them to give their kids something useless or even harmful? What are your qualifications beyond parrot?
NM;
Do you think Kathleen will answer my question?
I don't advise anyone what chemicals to give their kid. I tell them to see what Dr Cutler has to say. Do I have blind faith in him? You bet! My kid's getting better because of him and I think he deserves a Nobel prize.
I read someplace that EDTA only chelates lead. If I'd known that some anonymous person was going to quiz me on it, I would have written down where I learned it.
Speaking of parrots, I want everyone to know that Andy Cutler told me that if I fed my labrador puppy (15 weeks) ALA for 2 years, at the end of the process I'd have an adult dog.
Don't even think of asking me whether she would have grown up into a real dog if I hadn't given her the ALA. I don't want to hear it. I have faith in Andy.
And don't even think of pulling that "14 in dog years" garbage, you jerks. My faith beats your science.
Is this your dog sir?
http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/osw/conserve/2003news/09-dog.htm
Anyone wishing to voice their concerns about NIMH sponsoring a chelation trial for autism should follow this advice from NIMH.
We suggest addressing your continued concerns to the NIH Office for Human Research Protections (OHRP). You can contact the OHRP at:
Office for Human Research Protections
1101 Wootton Parkway, Suite 200
Rockville, MD 20852
USA
Phone: (240) 453-6900
Toll-Free within the U.S.: (866) 447-4777
Fax: (240) 453-6909
E-mail: ohrp@osophs.dhhs.gov
Web site: http://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/
No, but here's Best feelin' the force
And here's a candid at the Autism One conference with Best and Andy
Wait a minute. They can use that dog to detect which kids are autistic as opposed to those that might be merely deaf... forget the extensive training and testing for accuracy of the clinicians and their instruments, all you need is a dog that can smell mercury...
I showed you the 75 year old autistics, John, remember they are in that video that's on my blog in the still shots from the book, "Christmas in Purgatory."
You lose.
What's really needed is a quackery sniffing dog. Oh wait, that would be JB Handley.
What's really needed is a quackery sniffing dog. Oh wait, that would be JB Handley.
I'd volunteer, but there's already a duck, and I've been spending more of my time cutting into Intelligent Design and such.
John,
I feel badly for your kid, considering the person administering his treatment is in the running for "biggest moron alive".
Yeah BD, I'd bet a copper-tin K9 would be pretty good at picking up mercury or at least help you with that patina of faith you've been working on :-)
I think my sense of humor's experiencing technical difficulties at the moment. I'm not getting your joke, clone.
As for my quackery-sniffing, it's currently overloaded thanks to JB/FS being in this thread.
Just that bronze would become shiny and silvery after contacting mercury and the green oxide.....eh, never mind.
Your sense of humor's intact.
Orac, get your story straight. Are you saying that ANY non-evidence-based, ineffective, and potentially dangerous treatment should be sufficient cause in and of itself for action?
"No, no, no. The use of chelation therapy to "treat" autism that leads to serious complications should be sufficient cause in and of itself for action. The formulation used isn't the issue (although certainly Kerry was reckless and incompetent in choosing disodium EDTA). The use of a non-evidence-based, ineffective, and potentially dangerous treatment is."
Orac said the following about chelation therapy for autism; "The use of a non-evidence-based, ineffective, and potentially dangerous treatment is sufficient cause in and of itself for action? "
Can you show us where we can find studies that show thimerosal to be "evidence-based, effective, and not a potentially dangerous treatment?
When will you call for "actions" against Eli-Lilly?
Never?
Since I sell ARJ(TM), autism recovery juice(TM), I think that I am in a good position to help Mr. Champagne out here: feet flat on the floor, knees slightly bent, groin angled at a 45 from the horizontal.
My only real wish this Christmas is that someone develops any evidence to support the Thimerosal-autism hypothesis. I mean, I sell my juice at premium cost in the absense of any evidence anyway, but just think about the money I'd make if someone actually supported this hypothesis in any way, shape, or form.
KC, buddy - I need a new boat. Come on in for an appointment.
Thimerosal is effective for it's purpose, that is as an antiseptic, it's not an evidence-based effective treatment because it isn't meant to treat anything other than microbial contamination.
Do you need evidence that it's an effective microbicide?
Butter's shill said that Orac said, "The use of a non-evidence-based, ineffective, and potentially dangerous treatment is."
taps on podium. uhhh, attention kids!
thimerosal = preservative
can anyone tell me if labratory procedures 50 years ago were as effective as those practiced today? could it be that there was a significanly higher chance of microbial contamination in a lab when Eisenhower was president? Could it be that thimerosal improved the product and may have even saved lives?
Could it be that improved lab standards obviates or reduces the need for a powerful preservative? Could it be that other, non-mercury preservatives have been developed? Could it be that there exists no epidemiological evidence supporting the thimerosal-autism hypothesis? Could it be that there exists no known molecular basis for autism? Could it be that quacks are taking advantage of the unknowns surrounding autism by making vague and unsubstantiated claims about their snake oils?
Champagne - Suzanne Summers is grinding up some mistletoe with her thighmaster - quick, capture the extract, put it in a dissolving pill cover and stick it in your arse before the anti-oxidative properties dissappear when the Earth's magnetic field switches. There's a full moon coming - quick, act now before it's too late!
Clone3g said; "Do you need evidence that it's an effective microbicide?"
It's not a good preservative. 48 millon doses of flu vaccine had to be thrown away in 2004 because thimerosal is such a great preservative?
Butter's Buttah;
I suggest you take some of your ARJ(TM), arsehole recovery juice(TM). You might find yourself in a position to judge 'right from wrong', or are you more interested in "feet flat on the floor, knees slightly bent, groin angled at a 45 from the horizontal".
,
No one said it was perfect. So, what preservative would have performed better?
Yeah, ya got me there KC. I wonder how well no preservative would have performed.
Oh, and wasn't that more of a process contamination where there was some sort of growth on the packaging equipment? Those fools caught a manufacturing problem and dumped the whole batch when they might have profited handsomely. Who are they trying to protect? Bastards!
When one share's more than an IP, the groin at 45 from the horizontal is essential.
As far as what I'm interested in, it's the study of shills and so, Kevin Champagne is key in the research. Being Butter's buttery boy must be blindingly bland. But being the buddy of the Best bigot must be boring at best.
But why the suppository hate? That drinking fountain in your bathroom could actually be modified to spray MeB12 instead. Can you imagine - a TD-DMPS/MeB12/Mistletoe bidet? You get all the supps Butter can sell and you get it in the most effective place. Plus as a bonus you get clean from after Butter's visit. Hey, everyone has to pay a price for getting a deal on the Butter bling, even a shill.
Relax and enjoy your supps - you've earned them!
Sharer of jonsmum's computer!
Yuck! Where's the disinfectant?
[insert something dumb and embarrassing here]
"[insert something dumb and embarrassing here]"
No need to. You already have!
mum, let's leave our personal issues out of this discussion of Kerrey, thimerosal, and cheatlation quackery.
Trying to remember way back...
Don't try too hard you might hurt yourself.
To whom it may concern:
You pathetic arsehole.
let's not talk about your compu- and flat- and whateverelse-mate like that, jonsmum is only trying to help.
Autism isn't misdiagnosed mercury poisoning. Someone blindly threw a dart and while it was mid-air, a bunch of lemmings jumped on board to appease their desire to be absolved of the responsibility for their childrens' autism, but the dart fell short. Sadly, some fools chelate for months and years only to report cognitive and behavioral gains, gains that would have been seen without the chelation and gains that may have been amplified had the harsh drugs involved with some chelation techniques been avoided completely.
The future generations will judge, but the early results are in: I agree with NotMercury.
Sharer of Jonsmum's computer, Go clean your apartments!
[LINK DELETED BY ORAC.]
Clone3g said;
"Those fools caught a manufacturing problem and dumped the whole batch when they might have profited handsomely."
They still profited "handsomely". The year before the 48 million doses were contaminated, American flu-vaccine manufacturers overproduced and had to scrap 12 million doses of the vaccine.
Chiron created a media hyped artificial shortage. Flu vaccine media hype guaranteed for years. Lots and lots of hype about shortage and no shortages, that should move a lot of flu vaccine for years to come. The shortage caused long lines for flu vaccines all over the country as well as reports of price gouging on the part of distributors and clinics. The House Committee on Government Reform called on the Federal Trade Commission to launch an investigation into the widespread price gouging reports.
Chiron claimed sales were reduced by $250 millon by having to disgard the 48 million doses. 48 million doses that were contaminated despite the fact that they had that great preservative called thimerosal. Chiron was sold a short time later to competitor Novaris for $5.1 billion. Novaris has seen a 63% increase in sales of the flu vaccine so far this year and the third and fourth quarters are traditionally the strong periods of the year based on flu vaccine sales. Those figures are going to go up.
Novaris recently received $220 from the US Department of Health and Human Services to develop a new cell-culture based flu vaccine. Less chance for contamination? HHS said, we don't ever want to see that again Novaris, here's $220 million. Novaris is building a $600 million dollar plant in North Carloina that will have the capacity to produce up to 150 million doses. Big bucks!
So dumping the 48 million doses created an artifical shortage which then created an increase in demand and price.
Thank you for putting your name to this insane paranoia, it's wonderful fiction.
That black helicopter in the distance isn't just passing by, we're watching you.
Love, Notfromcali
Give him his very own computer;
He has his very own computer.
Your phone is tapped too;
This is probably the only plausible statement you've made.
Governments do have a tendancy towards "insane paranoia" when they are aware of people who undermine them by exposing the truth.
Watch out for teh illuminati - tehy will use our tinfoil hats against us!! Mark my words - tehy control teh internets through teh p0wah of vaccines.
kevin_1000 and i saw it written in our nu-age karma sutra!!
j0nsmum;
If you like a good comedy, I recommend "Curb your Enthusiasm"
Kevin Champagne,
All your discussion of money shows how silly you are.
U.S. vaccine industry = approx $10 billion
U.S. dietary supplements part of alt med alone = approx $28 billion
Where are the biggie dollars?
Send in your money, they want to hit $30 billion next year!
Advantage suppliments have: FDA approval for them is pretty much a "not poison" label.
If real doctors were only in it for the money, they'd go into quackery. It's more profitable, has fewer regulations, and almost no liability.
I'm in favor of changing the latter two. If it cuts into the first, I don't care.
I guess what Kevin Champagne is trying to say is that Novartis killed Abubakar Nadama.
"U.S. dietary supplements part of alt med alone = approx $28 billion"
You can't compare vaccines to supplements. You can compare prescription drugs to supplements.
"Where are the biggie dollars?"
"Sales of prescription medicines worldwide rose 7 percent to $602 billion, according to IMS health, a pharmaceutical information and consulting company. The United States still accounts for the lion's share of that, with $252 billion in annual sales." March 28, 2006.
Lipitor cost around $114.00 for 30 10mg tablets, Prozac 30 20mg tablets for around $129.00.
Vitamin C, 150 chewables tablets for about $20.00. Where's the big money?
How much vitamin C would you have to sell to reach Lipitor's sales of $6.8 billion? Aprox 340 million bottles. How much Lipitor? Aprox 52.7 million bottles.
Where's the big money? Supplements or prescription drugs?
Look Buttershill, if you're going to shill for someone then you have to make it harder to take down your argument.
What's the cost of development for Champagne-Butter Vitamin C(TM)?
Will you have to break a piggy bank to do it if you include Rose Hips?
Get Butter to fianance a Vitamin C bidet and you've made your million. I'm serious man, but watch out for a pH-induced rash down there. eeeek.
Check out this Champagne rant from tonight as he proclaims that he's been communicating with Autism Diva on this blog (he hasn't):
"Remember, you brought this little exchange onto yourself as you always do. I made a comment on Orac's blog and you came along with your usual Buttar crap. I didn't go there looking for you or to get into it with you. You came to me. I do everything that I can to avoid this [Edited out] with you but you bring it on yourself."
Does he care that he's got the wrong gal?
He goes on to ask about Autism Diva's claim (on KC's blog) that Butter has fallen from DAN! grace:
"Buttar fall from grace? I must have missed that."
Amigo, the only way you could have missed that is by working overtime helping Screech with his last video. Uh, you got a little something right, uh, there.
If you define anything and everyone who disagrees with the autism-mercury fairy tale as an enemy, you'll find a lot of enemies. You aren't convincing. Your data sources are laughable. And your blind accusations involving someone who has not commented here are pathetic.
Champagne, tap out.
The Shillinator, and Angry Kevvy Pooh are cowardice pseudonyms.
According to this coward that hides behind these names, I am a shill, a boat buyer and I mistakingly accused Camille Clark of being the one that made the "Sharer of Jonsmum's computer" comment about Dr. Buttar.
I don't care if I have it wrong. The comments are her style and until you come forward, she will feel the brunt of your stupid comments.
"Amigo, the only way you could have missed that is by working overtime helping Screech with his last video."
Your post about "Trans The Dermal" is Dr Buttar's fall from grace?
If you only knew the truth silly cowardice blogger.
Your dreams of Dr. Buttar in cuffs or being indicted are just that, pure dreams!
I don't care if I have it wrong. The comments are her style and until you come forward, she will feel the brunt of your stupid comments.
Come out or the Diva gets it?
Kevin. We've talked about your Diva obsession before. Get a grip, man.
"I don't care if I have it wrong."
No, you sure don't. Say "hi" to Screech and Butter.
"The comments are her style and until you come forward, she will feel the brunt of your stupid comments."
Well then, I'm sorry... that you don't understand economics (ala your vitamin C versus pharma rant). I'm sorry that you don't understand the financial motives of your hero. I'm sorry that you can't see that you're merrily stepping along as an ill-informed, loudmouth shill for some guy who has been disparaged by the higher echelon of autism=Hg poisoning conspiracists. I'm sorry you cannot see that chelating a kid for 2 years and attributing any gains to said chelation is ridiculous and sad. I'm sorry you're not able to get past the empty promises of cure as offered by those who are gladly taking your hard-earned money. I'm sorry you can't view the published numbers of autistics in California and see a clear rise despite the vast reduction of thimerosal intake. I'm sorry you are desperately holding on to some sad vision of perfection and that disappointment and ego seem to get in the way of so many other positive and natural aspects of your life. I'm sorry you haven't been able to figure out that Autism Diva posts using 3-4 names, none of which have been used here despite me emailing her and informing her of your misdirected ire (that's why she posted to your lame blog).
As NotMercury clearly stated: It is over. Time to move on. Time for you to set the ego aside and tap out.
"Time for you to set the ego aside and tap out."
Never! I tapped out once before, but this time I am here to stay Camille. It's so obvious that it's you that I'm talking to.
JB was right, you're a tralier dwelling coo-coo!
Anne, you don't see what going on here?
Sure you do, you just choose to ignore it.
"I don't care if I have it wrong."
Of course you don't Kevin - why change the habits of a lifetime? I still fondly remember the commenter from Germany who you accused of being Camille. Do you have a little crush? or are you just intimidated by intelligent women?
And jonsmum coming out as a conspiracy theorist? Can't say I'm at all surprised.
Blind leading the blind? More like the credulous leading the gullible.
kev,
Talking of conspiracy. Can't you see your daughter is caught up in one. Haven't you read the CDC transcripts. You obviously turn a blind eye as it causes you too much pain and distress. Hurts to think that someone has damaged your child doesn't it?
Money makes the world go round, kev. Do you think autistic statistics will get in the way of that. You need to get out more.
Mr. Champagne:
Just a bit of information for you before you embarras yourself any further: The person posting under the 'nym "Dirty Champagne" is using an IP address that is not in California. Very far from it; it's from the opposite side of the continent. Whoever "Dirty Champagne" is, it's almost certainly not Autism Diva.
Just a notice.
"Talking of conspiracy. Can't you see your daughter is caught up in one."
No. This is becasue she isn't.
"Haven't you read the CDC transcripts."
Yes, every page. Have you read every page or just the hysterical highlights devoid of any context?
"Hurts to think that someone has damaged your child doesn't it?"
Scum bags impersonating my daughter in forums gets me angry. Idiot apologists for said scum bags sicken me. A non-existent conspiracy with non-existent science just makes me pity the more gullible of society - people such as yourself for example.
Money makes the world go round, kev. Do you think autistic statistics will get in the way of that. You need to get out more.
"Money makes the world go round, kev. Do you think autistic statistics will get in the way of that. You need to get out more."
Missed this - your naivety is astounding but then - you do see John Best as an authority so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Kev said;
"Yes, every page. Have you read every page or just the hysterical highlights devoid of any context?"
If you did, "read every page" it must have went in one eye, past your left brain/no brain, and straight out the other eye, to come out with this;
"A non-existent conspiracy with non-existent science just makes me pity the more gullible of society - people such
as yourself for example"
You're naivety and gullibility are the question here.
Go ahead and waste you're pity, kev. If you were half the man John Best is, you just might have realised the stupidity of leaving the decision of whether to treat your daughter's autism up to her.
I would have more respect for you if you came out and said, "I don't believe in this treatment, and as a responsible parent, I won't be subjecting my daughter to a treatment I beleive to be ineffective"
Agreeing with someone does not mean you see them as "an authority" on the subject you agree on. If that were the case then I could say, John best sees me "as an authority".
Do you think before you write?
You really have some nerve to say you pity the more gullible of society, when in fact, you use the more gullible and vulnerable of society in your twisted anti cure obsession. Why was your original Autism Hub slogan, "We don't need no stinkin cure".
Mud sticks Kevin.
Now hit me with your usual patronizing rubbish.
"The person posting under the 'nym "Dirty Champagne" is using an IP address that is not in California."
I notice you pick one of several comments and say "Um... this one isn't her".
What about the name "Sharer of Jonsmum's computer" comment? That's the one that started it for me.
Don't bother, I won't believe you anyway. What's done is done and I won't be making any apologies.
My original comment here was about your statement "ANY non-evidence-based, ineffective, and potentially dangerous treatment should be sufficient cause in and of itself for action?" and I said what about thimerosal?
Thimerosal is not evidenced based, never been safety tested, and is potentially dangerous. What about a call for action?
Sure we have heard time and time again "thimerosal doesn't cause autism", "thimerosal doesn't cause autism", "thimerosal doesn't cause autism" someone pick the needle up, the record is skipping.
Where are the thimerosal safety tests.
Do we even need a preservative? Look at the pediatric dose of Fluzone distinguished by a pink syringe plunger rod. This vaccine is preservative free. No thimerosal used in the processing at all. Is it any good? How can it be, without a preservative?
KC;
"thimerosal doesn't cause autism", "thimerosal doesn't cause autism", "thimerosal doesn't cause autism"
chelation is quackery, chelation is quackery, it has no more efficacy than a placebo, proove it works, proove it works!
Now the clinical trial is here to provide some answers;
Oh shit, oh shit. We need to pick holes and pull this trial to pieces NOW. BEFORE the results are out. Just in case it gives a positive result that chelation is a safe and effective treatment for autism.
It's unethical, It's unethical, It's unethical!
voice your concerns, voice your concerns, stop the trial, STOP THE TRIAL!
"Do you think before you write?"
and then said,
"You're naivety and gullibility"
and
"Go ahead and waste you're pity"
But nothing will top this:
rightslapper said, "If you were half the man John Best is"
Ewww - is it Kevin_999+1 or Best? Nasty.
And this is great,
"You really have some nerve to say you pity the more gullible of society, when in fact, you use the more gullible and vulnerable of society in your twisted anti cure obsession."
I this is a slam on Amanda too? Why do I picture a dog barking at its master because it's angry that master isn't treating his human friend the way a dog would treat a canine pal. I know it might look strange to an omega female that Kev and friends don't sniff each other's butts, but the way many of us humans treat each other is through an exchange of ideas. Piss and tuck, jonsmum.
ahh, now there's a question. let's play with the tense as well:
"Do we even need a preservative?"
and
"Did we even need a preservative?"
Known science evolves, Mr. Champagne. Perhaps your understanding of it should as well.
"ahh, now there's a question. let's play with the tense as well:"
"Known science evolves, Mr. Champagne. Perhaps your understanding of it should as well."
You're so profound Sneezy!
As usual, no answer.
I guess you're saying we needed a preservative 50 years ago? What about today? Last year? The 90's?
Question for science 50 years ago;
Where are the safety studies on thimerosal and it's effectiveness as a preservative?
Question for science today;
Where are the safety studies on thimerosal and it's effectiveness as a preservative?
jonsmum's dictionary;
"rightslapper"
"piss and tuck"
Is this your idea of "the way many of us humans treat each other is through an exchange of ideas."?
Come on, you can do better than that, Kev.
KC;
"thimerosal doesn't cause autism", "thimerosal doesn't cause autism", "thimerosal doesn't cause autism"
chelation is quackery, chelation is quackery, it has no more efficacy than a placebo, proove it works, proove it works!
Now the clinical trial is here to provide some answers;
Oh shit, oh shit. We need to pick holes and pull this trial to pieces NOW. BEFORE the results are out. Just in case it gives a positive result that chelation is a safe and effective treatment for autism.
It's unethical, It's unethical, It's unethical!
voice your concerns, voice your concerns, stop the trial, STOP THE TRIAL!
What's worrying you about my comment that's being "held for approval by the blog owner", Orac?
Is it the spelling mistakes, or the point I made in my comment that needs "consideration"?
"I guess you're saying we needed a preservative 50 years ago?"
yeah
"What about today? Last year? The 90's?"
thimerosal will soon be a thing of the past. only a fraction of the 90's dose is being delivered today. so given that autism hasn't just gone away, or even decreased in prevalence, you're barking up the wrong tree. did we need a preservative in the flu shot last year? I haven't seen the data to show the statistics of flu shot contamination in the absence of a preservative, but I'm pretty sure that today's laboratory techniques would reduce the liklihood of bacterial contamination by an order of magnitude or more compared to that of the 1950's.
Pontificating about questions such as, "Was thimerosal necessary?" and "Was it effective?" is fun, but the fun is avoided when we ask, "Is there evidence that thimerosal exposure leads to autism?". If the latter isn't asked first, then one might as well replace "thimerosal" with "japanese toilets". Again, think about the supps bidet - I think you'd go far.
"Where are the safety studies on thimerosal and it's effectiveness as a preservative?"
jesus, is an apostrophe really that hard to use?
jonsmum - read up on pack dynamics. tuck, tuck.
Question for science 50 years ago;
Where are the safety studies on aspirin and it's effectiveness?
Question for science today;
Where are the safety studies on aspirin and it's effectiveness?
Sneezy;
How's the pack dynamics amongst the 7 dwarf's these days.
Do you think you're alpha male material?
Don't forget to "whilstle while you work, Sneezy is a jerk..
You have far too high an opinion of your ability to "worry" me with any of your comments.
It probably had characteristics (repetition, for instance) that led the spam filter to label it as spam. Other things that will trigger the spam filter include using too many links.
I don't check my blog for comments held up for moderation every waking minute, you know. If something gets caught by the filter, it is not uncommon for it to take several hours for me to notice and approve the comment. Sometimes it will even be overnight. Deal with it. As you can see, I approved both of your comments.
Nope. Not from California, either. Almost certainly not Autism Diva. Your obsession is showing.
As for your little ditty about "safety tests," nice diversion. I could cite Dr. Pichichero's Lancet study, among others, which put it nicely:
In any case, the mercury militia goes far beyond the claim that thimerosal is "unsafe." Indeed, you make a very specific claim: that thimerosal in the cumulative dose given in childhood vaccines causes autism. We now have several large epidemiological studies that do not show a correlation between thimerosal-containing vaccines, the most recent of which showed that autism rates continued to rise in Canada after thimerosal was removed from vaccines. There's lots of evidence to discredit the claimed linkage between thimerosal and autism.
The asprin conspiracy, outstanding! Whale.to is gonna get light-headed over this one. Let's keep it going:
Question for science 50 years ago;
Where are the safety studies on anal EDTA and urine injections and their effectiveness?
Question for science today;
Where are the safety studies on anal EDTA and urine injections and their effectiveness?
rightslapper, FYI, one of Alexander Fleming's greatest discoveries involved an unsanitary lab and a sneeze. Ask somone who has passed secondary school biology and they'll fill you in on the details.
"How's the pack dynamics amongst the 7 dwarf's these days."
Is that supposed to read, "the 7 dwarf is"
or "the 7th dwarf's [missing item]" or "the 7 dwarves"?
"whilstle" - Is there some cat walking on your keyboard or did Best come home from minigolf?
Yes Orac, you approved my last two comments but not my comment before them. The one that made a point.
"it is not uncommon for it to take several hours for me to notice and approve the comment."
Well you've obviously noticed it, you're talking about it to me now, why don't you look at it and approve it?
Because it's not there, that's why. I approved whatever was there, having looked at both the routine queue and the ones dumped in the spam filter. No other comments are there. I double-checked.
I've posted it twice and it's disappeared twice.
Maybe third time lucky?
It should show up "dumped in the spam filter", or on this thread.
KC;
"thimerosal doesn't cause autism", "thimerosal doesn't cause autism", "thimerosal doesn't cause autism"
chelation is quackery, chelation is quackery, it has no more efficacy than a placebo, proove it works, proove it works!
Now the clinical trial is here to provide some answers;
Oh shit, oh shit. We need to pick holes and pull this trial to pieces NOW. BEFORE the results are out. Just in case it gives a positive result that chelation is a safe and effective treatment for autism.
It's unethical, It's unethical, It's unethical!
voice your concerns, voice your concerns, stop the trial, STOP THE TRIAL!"
Check "the ones dumped in the spam filter".
I've posted my comment a third time and got this message again;
"Thank you for commenting.
Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner.
» Return to the original entry"
"As for your little ditty about "safety tests," nice diversion."
DIVERSION? That was my original question. I go back to my original question and I am diverting?
All of the following was the real diversion, Cal Q. Later, Sneezy Fleming, Butter's Buttah, Sharer of Jonsmum's computer, and so on.
Third time lucky!
"All of the following was the real diversion, Cal Q. Later, Sneezy Fleming, Butter's Buttah, Sharer of Jonsmum's computer, and so on."
I wonder if any of these diversions came from Finland?
"If you did, "read every page" it must have went in one eye, past your left brain/no brain, and straight out the other eye, to come out with this;"
No, I just didn't try and twist some non-existent conspiracy theory into to make myself feel better about the way that life sometimes turns out.
"You're naivety and gullibility are the question here.
Go ahead and waste you're pity, kev. If you were half the man John Best is, you just might have realised the stupidity of leaving the decision of whether to treat your daughter's autism up to her."
Really? Do you think Johns impersonation of my daughter was an indicator of the sort of man John is? What about when he applauded srinath for calling autistic people 'fucking retards'. There's a reason John gets banned from forums where children are discussed Susan. He's not safe around them.
I don't consider leaving decisions to my daughter that affect her life stupid. I prefer to think of it as faith in her future and encouraging self confidence and determination. Of course, there still has to be an actual cure invented at some point.
"I would have more respect for you if you came out and said, "I don't believe in this treatment, and as a responsible parent, I won't be subjecting my daughter to a treatment I beleive to be ineffective""
I have said that, many times. I'll never chelate my daughter, or use Lupron on her. You're still seeing this from your unsubstantiated belief that thiomersal causes autism.
"Agreeing with someone does not mean you see them as "an authority" on the subject you agree on. If that were the case then I could say, John best sees me "as an authority".
Do you think before you write?"
Funny, I was actually talking to your house boy. Why are you answering for him? Do you think once before you write?
"You really have some nerve to say you pity the more gullible of society, when in fact, you use the more gullible and vulnerable of society in your twisted anti cure obsession."
I pity you and your child, yes. Who are these gullible and vulnerable members of society I'm using by the way?
"Why was your original Autism Hub slogan, "We don't need no stinkin cure"."
Its got a ring to it, don't you think?
"Mud sticks Kevin."
Er, thanks for that information.
"Now hit me with your usual patronizing rubbish."
Now hit me with more tired conspiracy theories and quasi-scientific crap. Or don't. Whatever suits you.
Hey- here's a question, since we're asking them:
Now that thiomersal has largely been gone from vaccines for at least four, nearly five years why is the 3 - 5 year old cohort of autistic kids in CDDS data still rising? Also, since MMR rates in the UK have fallen by 10% in the last 10 years, why have we not seen a 10% reduction in autism in the UK?
Answer using science if you can. If you can't don't bother answering. No one here is interested in black helicopters or the Illuminati.
Kev;
"Answer using science if you can. If you can't don't bother answering. No one here is interested in black helicopters or the Illuminati."
The old 'argue the science' routine won't wash with me Kev.
It's out there, we've all seen it, we've all read it and we've all argued about it. If you don't believe it that's your problem.
I'm not getting into the in's and out's of a fart with you.
And you can save your "black helicopters" and "Illuminati" for your You Tube propaganda.
"Its got a ring to it, don't you think?"
Then why did you change it?
"Now hit me with your usual patronizing rubbish."
Top marks for "patronizing rubbish"! Just as I expected.
Jonsmum"Then why did you change it?"
Short answer: to be more comprehensive of hub ideas.
Long answer: here.
"The old 'argue the science' routine won't wash with me Kev."
So you can't argue the science, but you 'believe' mercury causes autism? Why is the rate of autism near Minamata no different than the rest of Japan? Japan and Iraq had large-scale, documented mercury exposure-where are all the autistics? Organomercury targets the occipital lobe and the cerebellum, not regions most effected in autism. Why, if mercury causes all autism. Thimersal has been out of vaccines, but autism rates are not decreasing, no matter what you chose to believe. You have nothing but your charming personal opinions (and winning personality) to back you up.
I never understood bullies like you. Thankfully I have never been normal like you.
Ruth;
If you could recognise a bully, you wouldn't be calling me one.
Fantastic then. Maybe jonsmum, KC, and John, can all start a Chelati Hub. Borrow JB Handley's motto "We don't need no stinkin' science" and make it a one-stop shopping site for all the scam artists out to exploit autistic children.
Aspies know what bullies look like. I had a childhood full of taunting because I was different. Now the very things I was teased about, my interest in science, my skeptical thinking are valued by the people I care about. I've observed you on other blogs-you lack respect and courtsey for those who view things differently. All your cursing and insults don't add up to one good, fact-based argument.
P.S. The guy from Finland is very nice, if you show some human decency.
"If we take in our hand any volume, of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion."
David Hume
--An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding
"If we take in our hand any volume, of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion."
David Hume
--An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding
"The old 'argue the science' routine won't wash with me Kev. It's out there, we've all seen it, we've all read it and we've all argued about it. If you don't believe it that's your problem."
Really? As far as I'm aware, no arguments have been presented by the dimwits you associate with regarding the non-drop of autism rates in either country. You're wriggling like a hook on a line Susan. Again. But thats OK - you carry on avoiding the questions ;o)
And speaking of questions you avoided - whats your opinion of a grown man impersonating a six year old autistic child? I seem to recall you taking a very strong line about the misuse of children on another blog. Now you don't seem too concerned. Hypocritical and a conspiracy theorist. Not an unusual combination.
"I'm not getting into the in's and out's of a fart with you."
Thank goodness for that. You and your house boy can discuss all the hot air you care to. I want to debate the science with you. Why are you so afraid to do that?
"And you can save your "black helicopters" and "Illuminati" for your You Tube propaganda."
Oh Susan, you've already copped to a belief in conspiracy theories. Never mind, you're in good company - the Black Helicpoters and Illuminati are strong beliefs of Autsm Media goofbag and condfidant of Karen McCarron, David Ayoub. The Geier's have Illuminati leanings too. Get in line with the rest of the wingnuts Susan - and don't forget to tell your house boy what to believe. I notice he's still hiding behind your skirts. I notice he took exception to someone impersonatng him. Another spineless coward.
"Then why did you change it?"
Good as it was, it didn't encompass all of the core philospophies. This one, whilst more wordy, does it very well. We've essentially moved from a strapline to a mission statement. Its only a big deal if you're the sort to shriek 'CONSPIRACY' at the top of your self-important voice.
"Top marks for "patronizing rubbish"! Just as I expected."
Ah, come on Susan -you can do better than that. Stop sulking and give it a bit of 'oomph' next time.
Kev;
You're hilarious when you're angry.
Don't waste anymore of your time trying to goad me into an argument. It won't work.
Give yourself a break. You sound like you're about to have a heart attack.
Angry? No, Susan, I'm far from angry with you. You amuse me somewhat but no, no anger. I'll save anger for John.
Whay are you so afraid of actual debate? I tried on my blog, I tried on ABFH's blog and I'm trying here again. Every time you try and wheedle out of it.
Come on Susan - got the courage of your convictions or are you just another empty vessel making a lot of noise?
Questions you're trying to wriggle out of:
1) Who are these gullible and vulnerable members of society I'm using?
2) What's your opinion on John masquerading as a six year old autistic child?
3) Now that thiomersal has largely been gone from vaccines for at least four, nearly five years why is the 3 - 5 year old cohort of autistic kids in CDDS data still rising?
4) Also, since MMR rates in the UK have fallen by 10% in the last 10 years, why have we not seen a 10% reduction in autism in the UK?
These aren't difficult questions Susan - lets se you address them.
Kev;
Why are you so intent on a "debate" with someone you banned from your site. I find that amusing.
Johnsmum, you wrote to Kev: "you use the more gullible and vulnerable of society in your twisted anti cure obsession." It seems you have adopted John Best's argument that autistic people are being victimized by "neurodiversity." John knows better; he has been communicating with people like Amanda and Frank Klein from back in the day, and he's just messing around. But I don't think you have been involved long enough to realize that autistic people themselves started that neurodiversity anti-cure thing, and they are the leaders of their own autistic rights movement.
However, I can kind of see how annoying it is to have people tell you that you are gullible and being victimized, as critics of certain snake-oil dispensing practitioners sometimes say about the parents who sign their kids on for treatment.
We now have several large epidemiological studies that do not show a correlation between thimerosal-containing vaccines, the most recent of which showed that autism rates continued to rise in Canada after thimerosal was removed from vaccines. There's lots of evidence to discredit the claimed linkage between thimerosal and autism.
Let's remember that we also have the heralded Danish studies which supposedly show no correlation between thimerosal and autism but of course, they don't. Here's what SafeMinds said in regards to the Fombonne study in Canada:
http://www.safeminds.org/pressroom/pres_releases/Fombonne-6-30-06.pdf
One other point. There seems to be a conflict going on here. On the one hand, you say the epidemiological studies show that there is no correlation between the removal of thimerosal and the autism numbers. Yet on the other hand, I have heard many say that there has been a shift in diagnosing? More children are being diagnosed due to better awareness? Why don't we just agree that the epidemiological studies just don't fly in this case... .
"Why are you so intent on a "debate" with someone you banned from your site. I find that amusing."
Debate is fine Susan - wherever. As I told you on ABFH's site I'd gladly welcome you back on my site if you wanted to debate. Imagine my surprise when you yet again turned tail and declined.
So, now, lets try once again for about the fourth time of asking. Here's the questions again Susan - have at them:
1) Who are these gullible and vulnerable members of society I'm using?
2) What's your opinion on John masquerading as a six year old autistic child?
3) Now that thiomersal has largely been gone from vaccines for at least four, nearly five years why is the 3 - 5 year old cohort of autistic kids in CDDS data still rising?
4) Also, since MMR rates in the UK have fallen by 10% in the last 10 years, why have we not seen a 10% reduction in autism in the UK?
Anne;
I appreciate your comments, but regardless of who started the neurodiversity anti-cure thing, I disagree with it.
I am 100% behind autistic rights movements, my son is autistic. He has rights, and deserves respect and acceptance by society, along with a need and a right to
non-biomedical and biomedical interventions and treatments. While I see my son suffer with severe autism, it is my right and my parental responsibility, to make informed judgements and decisions affecting his welfare and quality of life.
The problem I have with the concept and of neurodiversity is that it advocates/argues that autism is just a 'different way of thinking', a different way of 'being'. Something to be celebrated. Something we should sit back and experience the joy of.
I celebrate the joy of my son, but not his autism that is robbing him of the joy of his childhood.
The Autism Hub slogan with a "ring to it", namely "We don't need no stinkin' cure", epitomizes the mentality of many of it's members, who won't even acknowledge different severities of autism, while actively shunning parents of severe/profoundly autistic children and arguing against clinical trials and research into proving or disproving treatments that may help these children.
I may be new to blogging, but my longstanding views and opinions are my own. Beleive me, I have not adopted them from John Best and I am anything but gullible.
Kev;
"Debate is fine Susan - wherever. As I told you on ABFH's site I'd gladly welcome you back on my site if you wanted to debate. Imagine my surprise when you yet again turned tail and declined."
Why are you so surprised that someone you banned from commenting on your site would not jump at the opportunity of being welcomed back to comment, at your convenience.
As I told you on ABfH's site. I have no interest in commenting/debating anything with you.
You have no option but to accept this.
So, now, lets try once again for about the fourth time of asking. Here's the questions again Susan - have at them
Jonsmum, I know that you know this but don't feel like you have to answer Kev. No matter what you say, he'll try to rip you apart :) Not worth it.
Jonsmum,
It looks like I was typing while you were posting. Good to see that you do know what a waste of time it is to "debate" Kev.
Common Sense;
I've no doubt we're not alone in knowing what a waste of time it is to "debate" Kev.
A "debate" with Sue...you gotta be kidding...
"The problem I have with the concept and of neurodiversity is that it advocates/argues that autism is just a 'different way of thinking', a different way of 'being'. Something to be celebrated. Something we should sit back and experience the joy of."
It does? Could you show me exactly where anyone uses the word just? YOur view of what neurodiversity is and isn't is tainted by the corrosive elements you associate with. Autism is both a difference and a disability in my opinion. Its not 'just' anything.
"The Autism Hub slogan with a "ring to it", namely "We don't need no stinkin' cure", epitomizes the mentality of many of it's members, who won't even acknowledge different severities of autism, while actively shunning parents of severe/profoundly autistic children and arguing against clinical trials and research into proving or disproving treatments that may help these children."
Did you just make this up from your head? This is the trouble with hanging around John too long. Don't acknolwledge different sorts of autism? Shunning parents? Arguing against clinical trials? Can you back any of this up? Because its all wrong.
"I am 100% behind autistic rights movements, my son is autistic. He has rights, and deserves respect and acceptance by society"
I completely agree. Does this respect extend to not having a grown man usurp your childs identity on the internet?
I see Sue M has given you another excuse to wriggle. She's absolutely right, you don't have to debate with me at all but I think its safe to say this is a case of 'can't' rather than 'won't.
Not only that, but like our friendly holocaust denier, our science denier has a problem answering simple questions. Just so she doesn't forget, here they are again...
1) Who are these gullible and vulnerable members of society I'm using?
2) What's your opinion on John masquerading as a six year old autistic child?
3) Now that thiomersal has largely been gone from vaccines for at least four, nearly five years why is the 3 - 5 year old cohort of autistic kids in CDDS data still rising?
4) Also, since MMR rates in the UK have fallen by 10% in the last 10 years, why have we not seen a 10% reduction in autism in the UK?
Thank you shot_info. Susan's main issue seems to be the fact that its me asking the questions.
Hopefully, now you have she'll feel happier about answering them.
A "debate" with Sue...you gotta be kidding...
Here's the difference. I don't care if you don't wish to "debate" with me. That's fine. With Kev, he pulls out the authority card (in his head) with... "So, now, lets try once again for about the fourth time of asking. Here's the questions again Susan - have at them"... No, Kev, it's not up to you to decide what Susan has to answer or not.
While Kev is around. A while back you had a cute little blog post about sending information to VAERS about your daughter being turned into Wonder Woman via vaccinations:
http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/index.php?p=342
You went through the process of putting it on video and everything. So, for follow-up, can you give me the VAERS ID# which was created for that action. I would like to see the actual entry on the VAERS system.
I've posted more on the Nadama case; perhaps this conversation should be moved there.
In fact, I think I'll enforce this switch by closing comments on this post. If you want to comment further, you'll have to use the link above.
The links above direct you right to Diva's blog.
They don't anymore. Cut and paste error, now fixed.
Comments on this post are now closed. Please go here if you wish to comment further on the Nadama case.