Respectful Insolence

After not having written anything about the case of Abubakar Tariq Nadama, the five year old autistic boy who died as a result of chelation therapy administered to him to “cure” him of his autism, I revisited the case last week in light of the State of Pennsylvania filing charges against Dr. Kerry, the “alternative medicine” practitioner who delivered the lethal dose. I’ve now gotten a copy of the full list of charges, and it makes for some interesting reading if you can stand all the legalese. (The charges can also be found here.)

Here’s the note in Tariq’s medical chart from his initial consultation with Dr. Kerry:

We don’t have the entire record at all. Mother left her entire volume of his records home. But we have been in communication with Dr. Usman regarding EDTA therapy. He apparently has a very high aluminum and has not been responding 10 other types of therapies and therefore she is recommending EDTA, which we do on a routine basis with adults.

Note that Tariq had been subjected to ten different other forms of what was almost certainly non-evidence-based “therapy” before his parents found their way to Dr. Kerry’s office. Sadly, this is probably not atypical of parents so desperate for a “normal” chld that they will allow themselves to be seduced by any dubious treatments that come along. In addition, to me this sounds as though Kerry never treated a child with IV chelation before. There’s a saying in pediatrics: “Children are not just little adults.” It’s bad enough that Kerry was giving chelation therapy to treat autism, an indication for which it is most definitely not appropriate, but he didn’t even seem to know the dose for a child of Tariq’s size!

The note continues:

We therefore checked him to it … But on testing for the deficiency indicator we find him only indicating the need for EDTA at the present time. Therefore we agree with Dr. Usman’s recommendation to proceed with the treatment. She recommends 50mg per kilo. He is 42 pounds today. So we’ll treat him with a 20-kilo child and give 1 gram of EDTA. We diluted it 1:1 with saline. Started the IV with saline. After a good blood flow in the right antecubital fossa with 3 other assistants and mother controlling him and the papoose board. Had a good TV return flow. We then introduced the EDTA. Checked return flow frequently during administration. Gave the IV over approx. 5 minutes. Then rinsed with saline. He had no difficulty toleration it. No infiltration occurred. We’ll have mother collect the urine for 12 hours. The most important are the first six hours for toxic and essential minerals. When we get that report back we’ll proceed with further injections as indicated on approx. a weekly basis. Recheck the levels in 4-6 lV’s depending on his response … Initial impression: Autistic Syndrome, Heavy Metal Toxicity, Candidiasis, Multiple Food Allergies … Roy E. Kerry, M.D.

Odd, there’s no mention of mercury, even though this was also in Dr. Kerry’s notes:

wants to have iv … edta injection … an iv push. mother states Tariq is autistic due to immunization shots he was a normal pregnancy .. 1st shots were given the day he was born … no sx noted until age 18 mo … has had 12 other inoculation by time he was 18 mo old/…

Indeed, for the most part, all we see in the notes are mentions of lead. It just goes to show that, should the mercury militia finally be forced to accept that the evidence just doesn’t support their belief that mercury in the thimerosal used as a preservative in vaccines is the cause of autism, there’ll always be another bogey man in vaccines that will be blamed, as I mentioned over a year ago. The mercury militia is just a manifestation of a larger antivaccination movement.

Here is the chilling part of the complaint:

58. On August 23, 2005, a third and final round of Disodium EDTA chelation therapy was administered to Tariq.

59. Theresa Bicker administered the IV Disodium EDTA to Tariq.

60. Bicker requested Doctor Mark Lewis, D.O.) to come to the treatment room to help restrain Tariq for the 1V push of Disodium EDTA.

61. Respondent was not present when Tariq received chelation on August 23, 2005.

62. Theresa Bicker administered the Disodium EDTA pursuant to Respondent’s orders.

63. Tariq’s medical chart fur August 23, 2005 reads “TV push ordered by Dr. Kerry and his protocol…. prior to procedure patient was alert and oriented. No acute distress. Mother was present in room ….. ”

64. During the IV push, Tariq’ s mother, Marwa Nadama said that something was wrong.

65. Doctor Lewis took Tariq’s vitals and then Tariq went limp.

66. Bicker called 911 and helped with CPR while the ambulance was en route.

67. Tariq was taken by ambulance to Butler Regional Hospital.

68. On August 23, 2005, at Butler Memorial Hospital, Tariq was pronounced dead.

And so a five year old child who did not have to die died. He was held down for an IV push, went into cardiac arrest, and died. As we know, the cause of death was cardiac arrest due to a low calcium level, a known complication of chelation therapy. And here’s Kerry’s reason for using an IV push of EDTA:

74. Respondent admits that he used the TV push because he did not believe that Tariq would be able to remain still and tolerate the one and 1/2 hours it takes to have the IV drip complete and therefore he administered the drug via IV push.

In other words, Kerry recklessly used a dangerous IV push of disodium EDTA just because he didn’t think Tariq would sit still, and Tariq’s heart stopped because it dropped the calcium level in his blood to levels that interfere with the proper electrical activity of the heart. Among the actual charges, it still irritates me, for the same reason that it irritated me when Dr. Mary Jean Brown of the CDC blamed Dr. Kerry for using the “wrong” kind of EDTA, rather than blaming him for using chelation therapy at all for a condition for which it is not indicated and for which there is no evidence of efficacy. Unfortunately, several of the counts perpetuate this mistake. For example:

7. The Board is authorized to suspend or revoke, or otherwise restrict Respondent’s license, or impose a civil penalty under 40 P.S. sections 1303.905 and 1303.908 in that Respondent was negligent in the care of Tariq because Respondent breached the standard of care when he did any or all of the following acts, 1) practiced medicine negligently by repeatedly ordering chelation by way of IV push of Tariq with the drug Disodium EDTA when there are specific warning not to rapidly infuse a pediatric patient, 2) used Disodium EDTA to chelate Tariq for metal toxicity which should be treated with CaNa2EDTA instead, and 3) he treated his patient with EDTA when this type of EDTA it was not indicated in the first place.

And another example:

93.The Board is authorized to suspend or revoke, or otherwise restrict Respondent’s license, or otherwise restrict Respondent’s license or impose a civil penalty under 63 P.S. Ā§ 422.41(8) and 49 Pa Code Section 16.61(a) (3) in that Respondent engaged in unprofessional conduct in that he performed a medical act incompetently or performed a. medical act which the physician knows or has reason to know that he is not competent to perform, in that Respondent treated his patient with EDTA when this type of EDTA it was not indicated in the first place.

The above would me correct if it read that “Respondent treated his patient with EDTA when EDTA was not indicated in the first place.” I can see chelation advocates using these complaints as “evidence” that Dr. Kerry shouldn’t be considered incompetent for using chelation therapy for autism, but rather for using the “wrong” chelation therapy for autism and giving it too fast, even though the complaint suggests otherwise:

44. Respondent obtained a “post provocative” urine sample from Tariq on July 22, 2005.

45. A “post provocative” sample is a urine sample taken after the patient has been subject to drug therapy or chelation.

46. The laboratory report of this sample was completed on July 29, 2005 and sent to Respondent.

47. This laboratory report listed Tariq’s lead level as “elevated” but not in the “very elevated” reference range.

48. It should be noted that this laboratory report has a notation in bold print that reads “Reference ranges are representative of a healthy population under non-challenge or nonĀ­provoked conditions.”

49. Tariq had a minimal elevation of his lead level.

Post-provocative urine samples are meaningless. If you give a chelating agent to random people on the street, it will elevate the lead level in their urine. That’s what chelating agents do. They bind heavy metals and cause them to be excreted in the urine. In fact, if Tariq’s “post-provocation” urine test showed only mildly elevated lead, that suggests to me that his lead levels were probably in reality in the normal range! In any event, Kerry should not have been chelating children for autism, period, because it is not indicated. In this light, that his cluelessness cost the life of a child is all the more tragic. On the other hand, I’m almost OK with all this if in the end Dr. Kerry is stripped of his license, fined to the maximum extent of the law, and subject to a massive malpractice and/or wrongful death lawsuit.

Justice demands that Kerry suffer a penalty for his incompetence and reckless disregard for the safety of his patients. If the law won’t allow him to be sent to jail for killing Tariq, at the very least he should never, ever be allowed near a patient, particularly a child, again.

ADDENDUM: Autism Diva has more, and Not Mercury comments on what we hope is the end of the thimerosal-autism hypothesis. Unfortunately, I’m not so optimistic. Pseudoscience has a way of hanging on for incredibly long periods of time in spite of the evidence against it.

Comments

  1. #1 Ruth
    November 7, 2006

    Just how many grams of EDTA do you need to chelate a max of 188 micrograms of ethyl mercury? Ignoring the fact it has a half life of 8 days. Or maybe it’s homopathy-the mercury leaves a memory in the blood after it’s removed that continues to cause autism after all the metals are out.

    I think ‘Dr.’ Kerry should be given EDTA suppositories until all the quackery has been chelated out of him.

  2. #2 Do'C
    November 7, 2006

    Can anyone provide information about Pennsylvania state law relative to medical assistants (ie: okay to push IV drugs)?

  3. #3 Lead or Mercury?
    November 7, 2006

    A diagnosis of lead poisoning is convenient. Any real hospital, here is the states or back in Tarig’s home in England, could have treated the lead poisoning correctly.

    I wonder how many DAN! docs have whispered, “we’ll just write down lead” to parents of autistic children since Tariq died? I wonder how many of them have written down “mercury poisoned” on paper and have treated the mercury poisoning through chelation? I bet not many, and of those who have been upfront about their intention to chelate mercury, I be none have privileges at major hospitals.

  4. #4 vulcan
    November 7, 2006

    It seems that CDC, and maybe the PA medical board, are being willfully ignorant of the evidence that Kerry knew exactly what kind of EDTA he was giving and did so on purpose. Autism Diva has detailed it many times, and I know for a fact that Mary Jean Brown has been made aware of it.

  5. #5 vulcan
    November 7, 2006

    I take back what I wrote above as to the medical board. While they are still wrong to imply that there is a kind of EDTA appropriate for the treatment of autism, at least they aren’t regarding it as a mere “sound-alike” error, as Brown was quoted in newspapers as describing it.

  6. #6 anonimouse
    November 7, 2006

    If Dr. Kerry gets in a boatload of trouble and is never allowed to practice quackery on kids again, I’m not concerned about the particulars of his case. At some point it becomes splitting hairs.

  7. #7 It's in the details, though
    November 7, 2006

    the problem is that the details do matter. Say he goes down and is never allowed to touch a child again – we all agree that’s good. But what about the tons of other Kerry clones out there injecting other “chelators”, injecting IgG, advising massive doses of fat-soluble vitamins, performing urine injections, and doing exorcisms.

    The details do matter because if the authorities do their job right, making up science, lying to patients, and performing unproven remedies simply to make a buck (or thousand) will be put on trial and convicted as well. These disgusting people need to be stopped.

  8. #8 Common Sense
    November 7, 2006

    Just in case it got “lost” due to the other thread being closed. Kev, VAERS # for your report about your daughter turning into Wonder Woman? Thanks in advance!

  9. #9 anonimouse
    November 7, 2006

    Common Moron,

    Wrong board, genius.

    For someone with a lot of alleged common sense you are one of the dumbest people I’ve ever met.

  10. #10 Interrobang
    November 7, 2006

    Based on personal experience with Butler Memorial Hospital, I wonder about the quality of input they had into the case, as well. Let’s just say I was treated there to have some foreign matter removed from a sensitive part of my anatomy, and left with some of the foreign matter still neatly stitched inside the incision. (I found that out the hard way.) I was not too impressed with their staff, nor their billing department, who “misplaced” my traveller’s insurance. I’m therefore personally a bit skeptical of the treatment Tariq would have received and of any testimony BMH put into the case.

  11. #11 shot_info
    November 7, 2006

    Not “dumb” but under educated.

    That’s what happens when you fail high school math and science it would seem…you have to depend on “common” sense.

  12. #12 anonimouse
    November 7, 2006

    No, Sue is dumb because she’s willfully ignorant. It’s one thing not to know, it’s another to know and refuse to admit it because it upsets your sensibilities.

  13. #13 Common Sense
    November 7, 2006

    Common Moron,

    Wrong board, genius.

    For someone with a lot of alleged common sense you are one of the dumbest people I’ve ever met.

    Mouse,
    Actually, once again, you are wrong. I hope that you will figure that out and run away with your whiskers between your micey legs. Not the wrong board, genius. This is the correct board. I will expect an apology from you anytime now. Have your facts together before calling other people names. How are your kids?

  14. #14 clone3g
    November 7, 2006

    Susans,
    Your kids were all poisoned by the mercury in vaccines, right? Would you allow someone like Kerry to order one of your kids restrained while an ASSistant delivered EDTA(Ca or Na) by IV push? No? Why not?

  15. #15 nonmouse
    November 7, 2006

    Sue is an inept willfully ignorant slug. How long do you think it will take her to figure out that she could search VAERS files for the text “Wonder Woman” and that a # is not needed?

    Give it a rest Sue, you are not relevant.

  16. #16 Common Sense
    November 7, 2006

    Sue is an inept willfully ignorant slug. How long do you think it will take her to figure out that she could search VAERS files for the text “Wonder Woman” and that a # is not needed?

    Isn’t that sweet of you, anonymous mousey pants. Remove the whiskers from your ass. It would have been equally as easy for Kev to give me the VAERS ID# … he should have that handy. He should be proud of his accomplishments.

  17. #17 Greg P
    November 7, 2006

    What comes to my mind as I read this is a parent searching for something, someone to blame for her problem child. Aggressively seeking out treatment.
    It’s easier to blame someone else (and collect a large “ransom”) than to accept any guilt for contributing to the death.

  18. #18 Bright Chapper
    November 7, 2006

    Greg P – ain’t that the truth.

    Once again Sue M trolls the bridge with passion. Sue, did you know that the keystone you cling to was developed by the masons, the organization that controls the CIA, the CDC, and NIH? They’ve collaborated to poison China’s future generations by exporting thimerosal and they’ve been monitoring their progress with black helicopters. That’s why you’ve seen a drop in the fly-by density around I-89. But don’t let that embolden you, they’ve got their eyes on you, your phone is tapped, and NSA has decrypted your AIM traffic to the beanie baby collectors network.

    You worry about the government agents tailing your car, we’ll worry about the autism-diabetes-thimerosal connection. In fact, I have a whole pack of chiropractors working day and night on it.

  19. #19 Kev
    November 7, 2006

    Hi Sue – the report can be found In this VAERS file. You’ll need a CSV reader such as Microsoft Excel and then look in cell 2344. Looks like the VAERS number is 252715.

    If you have any problems with that I can prepare a short video showing you how to use a computer…?

    For other readers, I apologise on Sue’s behalf for this bizarre sideshow. We now return you to your regularly scheduled insolence.

  20. #20 Narc
    November 7, 2006

    What different “kinds” of EDTA are there? Isn’t EDTA a specific compound?

  21. #21 counter ion
    November 7, 2006

    depends on the salt – can be prepared with Na+ or Ca++ as examples.

  22. #22 anonimouse
    November 8, 2006

    Sue,

    A freaking VAERS case number?

    I guess since Kev won’t let you spew your nonsensical tripe on his blog you had to bug him here, huh.

    Oh, and I wasn’t wrong about you. If anything, you reinforce my view that your’e a complete tool.

  23. #23 Kathleen Seidel
    November 8, 2006

    Re the possibility that many DAN! doctors lack hospital admitting privileges: wouldn’t it be interesting to determine how many MD’s and DO’s on the DAN! list have admitting privileges, and how many have been subject to disciplinary action? Back in February, a three-year-old autistic boy spent several days in Miami Children’s Hospital with aseptic meningitis after being administered IVIG at the office of a well-known DAN! doctor. When I heard about this, I checked the Florida Medical Board records and learned that his training was in psychiatry, not immunology, and that he was not affiliated with any local hospital. I can’t help but wonder what went through the minds of the folks at Miami Children’s when they figured out what was going on with this poor kid.

  24. #24 Common Sense
    November 8, 2006

    Hi Sue – the report can be found In this VAERS file. You’ll need a CSV reader such as Microsoft Excel and then look in cell 2344. Looks like the VAERS number is 252715.

    If you have any problems with that I can prepare a short video showing you how to use a computer…?

    No need to get a video together, Kev. I can tell that you are waaaaay too busy with the Scientologist/Moonies/Autism connection. Stick to that. LMAO…

    As for the VAERS file, cell 2344 does not appear to be your case. Also, that file (for me due to my computer ignorance I’m sure) skips from VAERS # 252703 – # 252718. I don’t see VAERS # 252715. Again, I’m sure that it’s my issue. It doesn’t matter though. Don’t worry yourself over it. I got the information that I needed. I am told that since it is a Non-Domestic case, it is handled differently. It is up to your nitwits over there to take care of your bogus claims. If they do not, blame your ignorant nitwits instead of our ignorant nitwits :)

  25. #25 Common Sense
    November 8, 2006

    I guess since Kev won’t let you spew your nonsensical tripe on his blog you had to bug him here, huh.

    Yeah, right Mouse. Kev just dedicated a whole entry to the Scientologist/Moonies/Austim/UPI/Washington Times/Washington Post/Korean CIA, etc. connection and I am the one spewing “nonsensical tripe”. Are you for real? Give those kiddos a kiss for me!

  26. #26 Catherina
    November 8, 2006

    I am glad Kevin picked that up – the same connections exist in other countries…

  27. #27 kev
    November 8, 2006

    “No need to get a video together, Kev. I can tell that you are waaaaay too busy with the Scientologist/Moonies/Autism connection. Stick to that. LMAO…”

    I see….are you suggesting that the DAN! doctors who are also Scientologists don’t exist? How about the thiomersal lawyers who are also Scientologists? They don’t exist either? Doesn’t it worry you that there are Scientologists ingratiating themselves into the DAN! movement? These are genuinely weird people. If I had teh email address of someone from DAN! I’d be asking her to have a good spring clean of who’s allowed to be a DAN! doctor and who isn’t.

    “It doesn’t matter though. Don’t worry yourself over it. I got the information that I needed. I am told that since it is a Non-Domestic case, it is handled differently. It is up to your nitwits over there to take care of your bogus claims. If they do not, blame your ignorant nitwits instead of our ignorant nitwits :)”

    Uh, OK. I have no idea what you think you just proved other than to firmly establish my point that VAERS accepts bogus claims. If you’re trying to insinuate its a good enough system to pick up the fact I’m submitting from the UK then you’re mistaken, its not. I purposefully did that. I’m quite happy to make another claim stating I live in the US if you want…?

  28. #28 Common Sense
    November 8, 2006

    Uh, OK. I have no idea what you think you just proved other than to firmly establish my point that VAERS accepts bogus claims. If you’re trying to insinuate its a good enough system to pick up the fact I’m submitting from the UK then you’re mistaken, its not. I purposefully did that. I’m quite happy to make another claim stating I live in the US if you want…?

    Honey, remember the VAERS ID# that you have isn’t coming up for me. I can’t evaluate your situation. Off to study my Moonies lit.

  29. #29 Kev
    November 8, 2006

    Toots, if you can’t find a number try holding down the ctrl button and tapping ‘f’ once.

    This will bring up a Find feature – enter the number in question, or try the phrase ‘wonder woman’.

    Nice sidestep of the Scientology stuff Sue. Are we to infer from that that you think its OK that Scientologists are involved with DAN! and thiomersal litigation?

  30. #30 Catherina
    November 9, 2006

    Kev,

    if you want computer illiterate people to find a VAERS case, it is best to point them to http://www.medalerts.org, which provides a searcheable interface. Mhhh (scratches head) – so what in particular annoys you about your daughter turning into “Wonder Woman” – is the costume?

    Your entry mady tiny here: http://tinyurl.com/y9fvf9

  31. #31 Regan
    November 9, 2006

    Kathleen said:
    “Re the possibility that many DAN! doctors lack hospital admitting privileges: wouldn’t it be interesting to determine how many MD’s and DO’s on the DAN! list have admitting privileges, and how many have been subject to disciplinary action?”

    Short answer: yes.

    It’s in the Details, though said
    “The details do matter because if the authorities do their job right, making up science, lying to patients, and performing unproven remedies simply to make a buck (or thousand) will be put on trial and convicted as well. These disgusting people need to be stopped.”

    Short answer: yes, yes, yes. Does anyone know how to do this without having the injury or death of a child be the intervening step?

  32. #32 Kev
    November 9, 2006

    Thanks Catherina – didn’t know that even existed. Bookmarked it :o)

  33. #33 Common Sense
    November 9, 2006

    Toots, if you can’t find a number try holding down the ctrl button and tapping ‘f’ once.

    This will bring up a Find feature – enter the number in question, or try the phrase ‘wonder woman’.

    Nice sidestep of the Scientology stuff Sue. Are we to infer from that that you think its OK that Scientologists are involved with DAN! and thiomersal litigation?

    Sweat Pea, it’s not there. VAERS ID# 252715 nor the text Wonder Woman is on the Non-Domestic file that you reference. It just isn’t…. If I really gave a crap anymore, I’d search Medalerts.org… I was simply curious but I got an answer from someone in regards to the non-domestic VAERS reports. You need to talk with your own nitwits over there about it. Now, if you like go ahead and pretend that your daughter is a US citizen and turned into Minnie Mouse if you feel the need. I’m sure that she would be proud.

    Off to my Moonies meeting.

    p.s. perhaps my computer has an anti-bogus claims feature. If so, there are still plenty of VAERS reports listed.

  34. #34 Common Sense
    November 9, 2006

    Toots, if you can’t find a number try holding down the ctrl button and tapping ‘f’ once.

    This will bring up a Find feature – enter the number in question, or try the phrase ‘wonder woman’.

    Nice sidestep of the Scientology stuff Sue. Are we to infer from that that you think its OK that Scientologists are involved with DAN! and thiomersal litigation?

    Sweat Pea, it’s not there. VAERS ID# 252715 nor the text Wonder Woman is on the Non-Domestic file that you reference. It just isn’t…. If I really gave a crap anymore, I’d search Medalerts.org… I was simply curious but I got an answer from someone in regards to the non-domestic VAERS reports. You need to talk with your own nitwits over there about it. Now, if you like go ahead and pretend that your daughter is a US citizen and turned into Minnie Mouse if you feel the need. I’m sure that she would be proud.

    Off to my Moonies meeting.

    p.s. perhaps my computer has an anti-bogus claims feature. If so, there are still plenty of VAERS reports listed.

  35. #35 Kev
    November 9, 2006

    Sweat Pea? Must buy more deodorant.

    Look up Sue – see Catherina’s comment? Click the link in it.

    Good grief, you really are making yourself look even sillier than I remembered you were capable of. Please tell me your job takes you nowhere near a computer or valuable data.

    On second thoughts, maybe you could give Vale Krenik a few lessons.

    So, whilst we’re waiting for the penny to drop Sue – whats your opinion on Scientology’s connection with DAN and thimerosal litigants? Fine with it? Feels it adds to your sides already first class credibility?

  36. #36 Bronze Dog
    November 9, 2006

    I saw it. I clicked the link. It’s there.

  37. #37 Catherina
    November 9, 2006

    and here I thought I had made it too easy (shakes her head in despair)

  38. #38 Common Sense
    November 9, 2006

    Once again, you missed the point. Just admit that you were wrong. When you click on the link that you gave, Kev, and put in the VAERS # or put in the text Wonder Woman… it does not come up. That’s the point. So all your funny jokes about how computer illiterate I am (which are true) are actually quite ironic because you were wrong :) Thanks to Catherina’s link you can see your foolishness and how your daughter turned into Wonder Woman. I’m sure that your daughter is proud. While you guys are at it, why don’t you do a search of all the people who died from adverse reactions from vaccinations. That should keep you busy.

    Again, just remember, the reason why I was asking was answered by someone else in authority. The UK is responsible for your claim. So if they don’t take care of your foolishness — blame them.

  39. #39 Kev
    November 9, 2006

    Sue, I’m sure I’m not alone when I say I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

    This is a database. There is one set of data. The first link I gave you allowed you to download the raw data in CSV format.

    The link Catherina provided gave you a different way to see the exact same set of data. If it exists in one place, it must exist in both. What are you not getting here?

    What exactly am I supposed to admit to being wrong about? If I’m wrong about something I’ve never had an issue admitting it. In this case, I have no clue what your original point was or what you think it is I’m wrong about.

  40. #40 Common Sense
    November 9, 2006

    Sue, I’m sure I’m not alone when I say I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

    This is a database. There is one set of data. The first link I gave you allowed you to download the raw data in CSV format.

    Here’s all that I can tell you. When I go into the file that you reference waaaay above (not Catherina’s link), here’s what I see:

    My file skips from:

    VAERS # 252703 rec/d 3/13/06 in regards to a 40 year old male with herpes encephalitis blah, blah, blah…

    to:

    VAERS # 252718 rec/d 3/14/06 in regards to a 5 month old Male baby. A physician claimed that there was a hypotonic hyporesponsive episode after the DTaP.

    There are no in-between numbers. No VAERS # 252715. In fact the numbers on my file for the above two reports are 11,994 and 11,995. I also tried the control f method and nothing appears for #252715 and/or Wonder Woman.

    Now, having said that, I do see it on Catherina’s link so yes, I believe you… It’s ok. In fact, I am only continuing here so that you can improve your computer skills. You should be able to accomodate people with less than stellar computer skills (unlike yourself — I guess). Maybe someone else who knows computers better than you can explain what I see as opposed to what you see. That’s all. I’m only here to help you, Kev.

  41. #42 Common Sense
    November 9, 2006

    Honey,

    I can give you a screenshot off of the Medalerts website too. That’s not the point…. Read what I have written from the beginning, BronzeDog. Please. Geesh….

  42. #43 Kev
    November 9, 2006

    I don’t know how else to explain the same thing to you Sue. What Bronze Dog has screencaptured for you is what you’re supposed to be seeing. If you can’t replicate that with either the online query tool or with a CSV download then I really can’t help you.

    Forget about the tools that are presenting the data to you. The data itself is what matters.

    Look, I’m starting to feel a bit sorry for you. I don’t know why you cant see the data in your spreadsheet app. It could be a million and one things from a filetype incompatability to a stray Option setting. If I prepare the CSV so you can grok it you’ll accuse me of tampering no doubt. Get one of your PC-literate pals to do it for you maybe?

  43. #44 clone3g
    November 9, 2006

    Sue, I’m sure I’m not alone when I say I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

    +1

  44. #45 Common Sense
    November 9, 2006

    If I prepare the CSV so you can grok it you’ll accuse me of tampering no doubt. Get one of your PC-literate pals to do it for you maybe?

    You are forgetting that I’ve already acknowledged that you have a VAERS # which states that your daughter turned into Wonder Woman. I’m sure that she is thrilled. Wonder Woman is cool. Here’s the thing, I have no doubt that there is glitch or some other issue with the file. It’s not my issue though… I am certain of that :)

  45. #46 Bright Chapper
    November 9, 2006

    “In fact, I am only continuing here so that you can improve your computer skills. You should be able to accomodate people with less than stellar computer skills (unlike yourself — I guess).”

    Should the scientifically literate likewise continue here to accomodate your less than stellar understanding of basic chemistry and biology?

    Sue’s licence plate: Vax-Free or Die!
    General John Stark nods his ghostly head in approval.

  46. #47 Common Sense
    November 9, 2006

    Should the scientifically literate likewise continue here to accomodate your less than stellar understanding of basic chemistry and biology?

    No, you guys stick to epidemiology, Moonies, scientology and placentas.

  47. #48 Regan
    November 9, 2006

    Orac,
    Thanks for your comments, esp.
    “The above would be correct if it read that “Respondent treated his patient with EDTA when EDTA was not indicated in the first place.” I can see chelation advocates using these complaints as “evidence” that Dr. Kerry shouldn’t be considered incompetent for using chelation therapy for autism, but rather for using the “wrong” chelation therapy for autism and giving it too fast, even though the complaint suggests otherwise:”

    because your assessment if any ambiguity remained may be correct. I came here for a dose of sanity because, beyond all belief, I was given exactly this explanation and justification from a Mercury-militia parent, with the additional note that Dr. Kerry was being unfairly targeted because ‘children are killed every day by allopathic medicine’ and that there may be ‘unfortunate incidents’ (phrase used) in the ‘battle'(phrase also used) to save children from autism. Tariq got saved all right.

    I still have the chills.

  48. #49 Kev
    November 9, 2006

    “Here’s the thing, I have no doubt that there is glitch or some other issue with the file. It’s not my issue though… I am certain of that :)”

    I give up – you are not making any kind of sense at all.

    No ‘files’ are involved. There is one set of data which is presented in as many ways as there are ways to present it. If there was a ‘glitch’ then you wouldn’t be able to see anything at all as either the reporting tool would have the ‘glitch’ and not be able to present the data or the data would have the glitch and not be able to be presented by the tool.

    There’s only one thing in the whole scenario that isn’t working right Sue. You. I’m not being rude when I say that, its simply the truth. Human error is the weak point in most IT systems. Please don’t read anything into your inability to parse the data except a lack of knowledge of how to achieve that.

    I see you’re back to Scientology – good. Can you answer my question now? Do you think its a good idea for DAN! to be accommodating to scientologists? Do you think scientologist thiomersal lawyers are a good idea?

  49. #50 Common Sense
    November 9, 2006

    Kev,

    If you want to continue this discussion, let me know and we can do so elsewhere… not Orac’s blog. Here’s a hint, though, you are wrong. The fact that your friends aren’t doing anything other than post information from Catherina’s website tells me that I am right. I’m sure that the data is all there but it is not showing up on the link that YOU referenced. I’m sorry. Let me know if you are interested in continuing this discussion elsewhere.

  50. #51 Kev
    November 9, 2006

    I’m sure you would like to continue this offsite. I’m going to mail you the CSV file I downloaded. Let me know what happens when you search it for the number 252715.

    In fact, better than that, I’ll upload it and let anyone and everyone grab it. Its about 5mb in size. The number to look for forms part of the file name.

    As for being wrong, I still have absolutely no idea what you are claiming I’m wrong about. You admit the data’s all there – what else matters?

    And how about answers to those Scientology questions Sue? I’ve bent over backwards to try and figure out what you’re getting at on this thread, now how about you return the favour and offer your opinion on the scientologists operating within the DAN! brigade?

  51. #52 Common Sense
    November 9, 2006

    I’m sure you would like to continue this offsite. I’m going to mail you the CSV file I downloaded. Let me know what happens when you search it for the number 252715.

    In fact, better than that, I’ll upload it and let anyone and everyone grab it. Its about 5mb in size. The number to look for forms part of the file name.

    As for being wrong, I still have absolutely no idea what you are claiming I’m wrong about. You admit the data’s all there – what else matters?

    Yes, Kev, it is there. I see it now from that CSV file (I knew it was there, as you know). It was simple. Very easy. Completely a non-issue. All that I was saying is when I did the same thing on the above (waaaay back up in the beginning), the same thing did not happen. That’s all. No big deal.

  52. #53 HCN
    November 9, 2006

    What pops up when you click on the TinyURL provided by Bronze Dog… I did a select, a CTRL-C, and then a CTRL-V here:

    VAERS ID 252715 Vaccination Date: 2001-12-06
    Age 1.0 Date filed: 2006-03-14
    Sex F Where Administered: UNK
    State Purchased by: UNK
    Life Threatening Illness? No
    Died? No
    Disability? No
    Recovered? No
    ER or Doctor Visit? No
    Hospitalized? No
    Current Illness:
    Diagnostic Lab Data:
    Previous Vaccinations:
    Other Medications:
    Preexisting Conditions:

    Vaccinations Manufacturer Lot Dose Route Site
    1 DPP UNKNOWN MFR 0 IM RA

    Onset Date: 2001-12-06 Days since Vaccination: 0
    Symptoms: REACT UNEVAL
    My daughter was turned into Wonder woman. I was slightly annoyed by this and somewhat surprised.

  53. #54 Autism Diva
    November 10, 2006

    Gee whiz, Autism Diva is late, she missed Sue derailing the thread and dodging Kev’s questions. Sue is in fine fettle.

    Thanks, Orac, for the link, and thanks for elaborating on the details of the “order to show cause” and what Kerry did.

  54. #55 Common Sense
    November 10, 2006

    Gee whiz, Autism Diva is late, she missed Sue derailing the thread and dodging Kev’s questions.

    You are correct. I did ignore Kev’s question. To be fair, I will address it. As for the Moonies/UPI/Dan Olmsted, etc. connection. Whatever. Moving on to the Scientology questions from Kev:

    Do you think its a good idea for DAN! to be accommodating to scientologists? Do you think scientologist thiomersal lawyers are a good idea?

    I’m not so sure why this would be a huge issue at all. If you think about it the reason why there might be a connection would be due to a core belief. DAN! believes in toxic assaults, nutritional issues, vitamins, detoxification, etc. Scientology at it’s core (my understanding) has similar background beliefs (I realize this is a total generalization here). Why should it be surprising that some scientologists would become interested in DAN! Why should that be such an issue. I’m sure that as in any religion there are freaks and wackos but what does hat have to do with anything? If I start hearing word that these DAN! doctors (scientologists) are trying to push their religious beliefs on patients than I will have a major issue. If they are doctors who happen to be Scientologists who happen to believe in some of the same principles as DAN! doctors than I’d be ok with that. Truth be told, I don’t know any scientologists. Tell me, are they ALL wackos? Seriously. I know that they some rather odd beliefs but hey, I’m Catholic… I can relate :)

    I could easily make the argument that many mainstream doctors follow the Church of Big Pharma. That doesn’t mean that they are all bad, though.

  55. #56 clone3g
    November 11, 2006

    Common Sense said: I could easily make the argument that many mainstream doctors follow the Church of Big Pharma.

    Well go ahead then. Make that argument.

  56. #57 jonsmum
    November 11, 2006

    “Well go ahead then. Make that argument.”

    Do they ever shut up on your planet?

  57. #58 HCN
    November 11, 2006

    No… especially when bad decisions kill kids:
    http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=84

  58. #59 Kev
    November 12, 2006

    “Do they ever shut up on your planet?”

    Apparently Susan, you’ve still to comprehend the whole idea of a discussion based piece of software such as a blog. In short it is to enable people to discuss.

    Whatever else I think of Sue, at least she has the balls to put her money where her mouth is. You even lack that, preferring instead to choose ignorance. Here’s a suggestion for you – if you don’t like discussion, stay away. Stay on the safety of John’s blog where nothing ever gets discussed except the personalities of people you don’t like. That infantile playgroup needs all the whinging it can get. Out here with the grown ups, you put up or shut up.

    Sue –

    Thank you for answering. I don’t agree the scientology is a religion. Its been banned from various European countries and has cult status only in many more. Its a dangerous thing as a whole. If the DAN! movement and the mercury litigants want respectability you really need to get rid of these extremists.

  59. #60 jonsmum
    November 12, 2006

    ‘LA-LA-LA-I CAN’T HEAR YOU’

  60. #61 clone3g
    November 12, 2006

    That may be the most intelligent comment from jonsmum yet.

  61. #62 jonsmun
    November 12, 2006

    ‘LA-LA-LA-I CAN’T HEAR YOU’

  62. #63 HCN
    November 12, 2006

    It is pretty indicative of her lack of education and maturity.

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