Respectful Insolence

I’ve mentioned one particularly odious (well, more odious) subset of Holocaust deniers, a type that I call the “Holocaust never happened but the Jews deserve it” type of Holocaust denier. These Holocaust deniers claim that either the Holocaust never happened or that it was greatly exaggerated, while at the same time spewing anti-Semitism along the lines of, “The Jews deserved everything they got” from the Nazis. (Never mind that the denier just said in the previous breathe that the Jews never got much of anything as far as persecution from the Nazis). If you don’t believe that this type of denier exists, take a look at this example of just such a denier, brought to my attention courtesy of Sergey Romanov over at Holocaust Controversies:

Am I a holocaust sceptic? Actually, I am not a holocaust sceptic. I unreservedly deny that there was any program to persecute the Jews. Scepticism does not enter into it. I know for a fact that the Jews got everything they deserved. Persecution does not even rate in this endeavour. The ‘German’ Jews, if I were in charge, would have been executed, every single one of them, Man. women & child, if they were proved to be traitors to Germany. The rest I would have put in prison camps. Why? Because I am no fool. I know what they were up to, sabotage and filthy dirty behaviour, just as they are promulgating in the United States of America and globally today. I make no apologies for it. Paul Grubach has it wrong. He is too soft on the Jew! Like Pastor Wickstom and Pastor Jones, every Jew needs to be killed. I am a Christian, I hate, Like David, King of Israel, every Jew with a PERFECT HATRED.

Translation: “The Holocaust didn’t happen, but the Jews deserved it.” (Alternate translation: “Hitler went way too easy on the Jews.”) To take a glimpse into this guy’s “thinking” (such as it is), you can find the full post here, complete with Biblical quotes justifying his hatred, and Nick Terry discusses more of this guy’s vile views in another post.

Yes, there are actually people out there who possess such vile beliefs.

Comments

  1. #1 Joshua
    November 27, 2006

    Wow. I’d like to reassure myself that this is just a bit of over-the-top satire like Borat, but clearly it isn’t. That makes me sad.

  2. #2 Sergey Romanov
    November 27, 2006

    Ironic how he brings up king David. But for Christian Identity freaks David wasn’t Jewish, and Jesus wasn’t Jewish. “Satan&Eve” rhetoric is typical for them.

  3. #3 Matthew
    November 27, 2006

    I don’t see anything illogical about that statement. He is saying that 1) the holocaust didn’t happen and 2) Jews deserved the holocaust. It’s strange to say that “Jews deserved blank” unless blank happened, usually you would say “Jews would have deserved blank”, but the absent conditional isn’t an acknowledgment that the holocaust happened.

    These Holocaust deniers claim that either the Holocaust never happened or that it was greatly exaggerated, while at the same time spewing anti-Semitism along the lines of, “The Jews deserved everything they got” from the Nazis.

    You can fault him for denying the holocaust, and you can fault him for being anti-Semitic, but you can’t say that his denial is incorrect because of his anti-Semitism. Doing so would be an ad hominem.

  4. #4 Greg P
    November 27, 2006

    I m sorry, Matthew, but this is at the very least convoluted logic — it just does not hang together.
    He is not a “holocaust skeptic” but his use of that term does not fit with the rest of the argument. He says that they were not persecuted, and here also, an apparent special meaning for him. I guess what he wants to say is that it is not persecution if you just believe that every Jewish man, woman, and child should die, and he tacitly believes that all these children were traitors to Germany. Hmm.

    The two big issues of the time were the lingering leftovers of Jewish persecution over the years, and the belief that many had that rich Jews were mainly responsible for the Depression of the 1930s. And along with it came the wonderfully Christian sentiment of greed for things that others have. The connection to Biblical writings and even Christianity was and is a smokescreen for hatred engrained and promulgated for generations.

  5. #5 ThePolynomial
    November 27, 2006

    I read this as “it’s not persecution if they deserved it.”

  6. #6 quitter
    November 27, 2006

    Charming.

    At least with the holocaust denialists no one really takes them seriously. I’ll start worrying when they create groups like the DI to get this shit taught in schools. Until then we’ll just get the homeschoolers like Prussian Blue.

  7. #7 Matthew
    November 27, 2006

    ThePolynomial, I didn’t read it like that the first time but after a second I think you might be right.

  8. #8 Sid Schwab
    November 27, 2006

    I agree with ThePolynomial’s take. It’s pretty depressing. And when I hear things like this I wonder how many such people there really are; and how many of them it takes on a small planet to keep us all unsafe.

  9. #9 Orac
    November 27, 2006

    I would be more likely to agree with Polynomial’s take were it not for what this denier added after his denial that the Jews were persecuted:

    The ‘German’ Jews, if I were in charge, would have been executed, every single one of them, Man. women & child, if they were proved to be traitors to Germany. The rest I would have put in prison camps.

    In context, it sounds as though he’s implying by contrast that Hitler and the Nazis didn’t do all those things, or at least try to.

  10. #10 Sergey Romanov
    November 28, 2006

    Orac, look here:

    http://p102.ezboard.com/frodohforumfrm10.showMessage?topicID=1433.topic

    “I should like to add: During the Second World War, in Germany, the Jewish people prospered above all other peoples. They suffered the least, they profited the most, they had fewer deaths and privations. After the war, resettled wherever, they manifestly profited beyond the wildest expectations of any other people. They still do today. Everything else is a lie. (typhus, starvation deaths not withstanding). A statement I shall vigorously defend.”

  11. #11 Rashed Harouin
    November 28, 2006

    The Good Doctor has made an over simplification of this paradigm “it didnt happen and they deserved it”

    Perhaps a more accurate summation would be: “Hitler’s critique of Jewish culture and Jewish behaviour and his desire to limit their influence in German cultural life is fully justified post-facto by their mendacious construction of the Mythhistory of the Holocaust”

    In other words by becoming aware of the deceitful nature of the Holocaust and power structures necessary to keep it in place Mein Kampf gains a heightened poignancy and relevance.

    Hope that helps.

  12. #12 Mandy
    November 28, 2006

    Orac:
    Yes, there are actually people out there who possess such vile beliefs.

    I’m not sure anyone could deny such a denier exists…this is exactly what we Jews have been hearing from the Arab/Muslim world for the past 50-odd years (cf. Iran’s Ahmedinejad for a recent example).

  13. #13 Alison
    November 28, 2006

    Incredible. The stance he takes about the holocaust isn’t all that hard to believe – it takes a lot of self-delusion to deny the holocaust, so a little more wackiness is just par for the course. What’s disturbing to me is the vile, all-encompassing hatred towards a bunch of people he doesn’t even know. Sometimes I have a fantasy where we have an unescapable island (or, better, a planet) where we can send everyone with homicidal and genocidal desires, and they can all get their jollies killing each other off without bothering the rest of the sane, decent world.

  14. #14 Tina
    November 28, 2006

    People like this just make me so angry, they are so hypocritical (I’m a Christian, but I really want to kill every Jew/gay/woman/Catholic/black person) and so very, very sick. This is perhaps one of the downsides to the internet- people like this can meet each other, and share their wonderful ideas.

  15. #15 mtraven
    November 28, 2006

    Is it really a good idea to give these hateful mental defectives the attention they so desperately crave?

    I waste a fair amount of time arguing with creationists and right-wingers, but there has to be at least a hope of rational communication, or that some bystander to the conversation will be swayed in my direction. I don’t see that possibility here. Anybody reading this stuff is either horrified (like you and me) or eating it up for breakfast.

  16. #16 Matthew
    November 28, 2006

    Why are racists so caught up on Jews? It can’t be a perceived threat to “white supremacy”, otherwise Asians would get a lot more venom than they do.

  17. #17 Justin Moretti
    November 30, 2006

    I’ve heard it said that David Irving’s slide into HD behaviour began with the entirely reasonable request: “Show me documentary evidence that Hitler actually signed his name to an order for it to happen.” Now, I have to admit that whether you are Jew or Gentile, Holocaust believer or denier, such a document would be a Holy Grail of WW2 German History. Instead of exploring why such evidence might not exist (indeed, may not ever have existed), he has gone off on a dreadful tangent.

    I can think of VERY good reasons why Hitler would never have put his name to such a document. Frankly, if I were going to order the single most malicious act in the history of the world, even my belief in my own invincibility would not stop me covering my backside with a heavy dose of ‘plausible deniability’ in the unlikely event that I was brought to book.

  18. #18 Brian X
    December 1, 2006

    Matthew:

    As best as I can figure (strictly armchair mind you) it seems to have a lot to do with the prominence of Judaism in the Roman Empire (I’ve heard estimates of up to 10% of the population) and the schism between Judaism and Christianity, where the Pharisees won the ideological war over Jewish doctrine and kicked out all the non-Talmudists (including the Essenes, the Saducees, and the Christians). The fact that a great number of Christians were goyim probably didn’t help, as they really had no interest in the outcome of the Jewish rebellion in Palestine and in fact might have been more loyal to the Roman state.

    With that connection severed, the Jews became the Other, and it became fashionable to hate them because of their nonconformance and perceived clannishness.

  19. #19 bernarda
    December 1, 2006

    What I like about orac is his holocaust fixation. He mixes things up for his zionist propaganda. Hardly a week goes by that he doesn’t mention the holocaust under some pretext or another.

    “These Holocaust deniers claim that either the Holocaust never happened or that it was greatly exaggerated, while at the same time spewing anti-Semitism along the lines of, “The Jews deserved everything they got” from the Nazis.”

    This time orac forgot to mention another possibility: That the holocaust is history and is no longer important to the real world. In the past he accused me of being a denier, and an anti-semite, for saying that. I don’t deny that the holocaust happened, I just don’t think it has any meaning today except to excuse Israel’s crimes against humanity.

    Basically, orac thinks anyone who criticizes apartheid Israel is a holocaust denier. He is just another of the zionist fanatics who will do and say anything to defend Israel.

    orac, you should stick to science and medecine and spend your time defending the undefendable, i.e. Israel.

  20. #20 william
    December 2, 2006

    “…the holocaust is history and is no longer important to the real world.”

    So, what’s the half-life of real-world importance?

  21. #21 Orac
    December 3, 2006

    Oh, Bernarda’s just still sulking because I revealed his blatant anti-Semitism for all to see a couple of months ago.

  22. #22 bernarda
    December 3, 2006

    I thank orac for linking and reminding people of his inability to argue a point without getting into personal insults.

    orac seems to be in the typical Hallowcaust mindset with its high priests of orthodoxy and its cathedrals called “museums” in Washington, LA, Israel, and elsewhere.

    Hallowcaust adoration is just another religious practice.

  23. #23 william
    December 4, 2006

    So, bernarda, what’s the half-life of real-world importance? Since you know the holocaust is history and thus not important, you must know just how long it takes for something to become unimportant.

    And just how does that work? Is it a half-life, with an event’s importance halving in a given period, or does it just expire?

  24. #24 Sergey Romanov
    December 4, 2006

    “Hallowcaust adoration”

    Usually deniers distort the word.

    Not a denier, eh? Heheheh.

    I should note that bernarda failed to argue _any_ points in a logical fashion, with insults or without them.