Respectful Insolence

It figures.

I’m deprived of full Internet access for a few days, and–wouldn’t you know it?–the merry band of antivaccinationists over at Generation Rescue have to go and provide yet more evidence to back up what I’ve been saying all along about the mercury militia, namely that, once again, J. B. Handley’s protestations otherwise, it really, truly is all about the vaccines, not the mercury. It always was. This new bit of confirmation of what I’ve said time and time again comes in the form of a full page ad taken out in USA Today on February 12 that I found about thanks to the credulous mention of it by Ginger over at Adventures in Autism, where she pointed out the line at the end of the ad stating that the ad was published with the “generous support” of Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey.

It just goes to show that what I had thought to be impossible is actually possible: J. B. Handley‘s burning stupid can escalate to malignant stupidity custom-designed to endanger children’s lives, thanks to the contribution of University of Google idiot Jenny McCarthy. This is the same woman who parroted the most egregious lies of the antivaccination movement with the confidence of the utterly credulous, even on The Oprah Winfrey Show. She’s merely another symptom of what we know to be happening in the movement created by people who blamed mercury in vaccines for their children’s autism. Remember last May, when I wrote about Generation Rescue’s makeover? Gone were the confident claims that “childhood neurological disorders such as autism, Asperger’s, ADHD/ADD, speech delay, sensory integration disorder, and many other developmental delays are all misdiagnoses for mercury poisoning.” In their place were softer, less easily testable hypotheses that autism is an “environmental illnesses caused by an overload of heavy metals, live viruses, and bacteria.”

It never really was about anything other than the vaccines. Mercury was simply a convenient bogeyman. Now that so many studies have failed to find even an inkling that mercury in vaccines is associated with increased rates of autism, the most recent of which was published just last month, even the most dedicated of the diehard Don Quixotes tilting at windmills made of mercury are starting to realize that maybe Sancho Panza was right when he told him that maybe–just maybe–it wasn’t the mercury.

Unfortunately, like any good Don Quixote, the mercury militia now sees windmills shaped like syringes, and this ad reproduced below drives that point home:

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I suppose I should thank J.B. and Jenny for providing me with blog fodder to welcome me back to the medical blogosphere. After all, this ad is nothing but pure antivaccination rhetoric. In fact, the very core of it is the typical antivaccinationist fallacy of confusing correlation with causation. Note the two syringes, one labeled “1983″ listing an autism rate of 1 in 10,000 and only 10 mandatory vaccinations. Then note the “2008″ syringe, with 36 vaccinations (although Generation Rescue cheats by including the prenatal flu vaccine recommended for pregnant women and several non-mandatory flu vaccines to pump up the 20089 number). The text then drives home one of the most blatantly obvious and moronic examples of a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy that I’ve ever seen:

The statistics speak for themselves. Since 1983, the number of vaccines the CDC recommends we give to our kids has gone from 10 to 36, a whopping increase of 260%. And, with it, the prevalence of neurological disorders like autism and ADHD has grown exponentially as well.

Just a coincidence? We don’t think so. Thousands of parents believe their child’s regression into autism was triggered, if not caused, by over-immunization with toxic ingredients and live viruses found in vaccines. The Centers for Disease Control and the American Academy of Pediatrics dispute this but independent research and the first-hand accounts of parents tell a different story.

A lot of other things have happened since 1983 as well. For example, in the early 1990s, the diagnostic criteria for autism were broadened, and campaigns for greater awareness were begun. Diagnoses of autism in 1983 were made using the DSM-III, where the criteria for an autism diagnosis were much more restrictive than those in the DSM-IV, released in the early 1990s. Moreover, in 1983, categories of Asperger’s and pervasive developmental disorder-not otherwise specified, both of which are lumped into the 1 in 150 figure for 2008, weren’t recognized in the DSM-III. Of course, if I wanted to be snarky (and perish forbid that I would ever be snarky), I could point out that 1981 was the year that the IBM PC was released, followed by the Apple Macintosh in 1984, both of which led to the exponential growth of households owning and using personal computers. That’s it! It must be computer use that led to the increase in autism in the 25 years since 1983! Wait, what about the compact disc? It just so happens that 1983 is the year that the CD was first released in the American market. Ergo, it must be CDs that cause autism.

I could go on, but you get my point. A lot of other things have happened since 1983, but to Jenny McCarthy, J. B. Handley, and their assorted antivax fanatics it has to be those evil vaccines. It just has to be. And, as predicted, if mercury in vaccines is exonerated scientifically (which it basically has been, the contortions of Generation Rescue and its ilk otherwise), mercury mavens were more than ready to move on to something else, and this ad shows it:

Mercury. Aluminum. Formaldehyde. Ether. Antifreeze. Not exactly what you’d expect–or want–to find in your child’s vaccinations. Vaccines that are supposed to safeguard their health yet, according to our studies, can also do harm to some children.

Somebody please show Jenny McCarthy my rant about this breathtakingly, burningly, malignantly stupid antivaccination canard, because this ad boils down the antivaccination wingnuttery to a couple of concentrated sentences in which Generation Rescue conclusively moves on from its previous “it’s the mercury, stupid” stance to blaming all sorts of scary-sounding “toxins” in vaccines, even ones that aren’t there, like ether. (As I explained, as far as I could tell, McCarthy’s “ether” appears to be polyethylene glycol pisooctylphenyl ether (Triton X-100), a common detergent agent used to make cell membranes permeable. In the past, a compound called Tween-Ether was sometimes used instead of Triton X-100; it’s the same sort of thing, a fairly large organic molecule with an ether chemical group hooked on. Basically, this “ether” is a form of soap.

Really, and there’s no antifreeze that I could find listed in vaccines either.

I don’t want to belabor just how dumb and fallacious this rhetorical tactic is. On the other hand, it’s hard to belabor it because it is so inconceivably dumb and fallacious (at least to people with some understanding of science and medicine) that it beggars the imagination to understand how anyone could say something like it in all seriousness, much less waste tens of thousands of dollars to run a full page ad in a national newspaper.

However, if you want to see where J.B. and Jenny are really coming from, just take a gander at the conclusion of the ad:

Why do we only test vaccines individually and never consider the combination risk of vaccines administered together? Given the dramatic rise of autism to epidemic levels, isn’t it time for the scientific community to seriously consider the anecdotal evidence of so many parents? We urge the CDC and AAP to help us find the answers to these questions and learn why the increase in the number and composition of so many vaccinations has led to a surge in neurodevelopmental disorders. Our children deserve no less.

Note the moving of the goalposts and the unfalsifiable hypothesis, which insists that it is some unspecified “combination” of vaccines that causes autism. Of course, Generation Rescue would love nothing better than to have scientists test the many, many different combinations of vaccines. Never mind that it would be not only logistically virtually impossible, but it would be unethical, given that it would require some children not to receive protective vaccines as a control. Note the lovely conspiracy-mongering. Note the repetition of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

Note how antivaccinations are like the Energizer Bunny. No matter how many times their “theories” are shot down by scientific studies, they never give up. They keep going and going and going and going…

Comments

  1. #1 Alex Whiteside
    February 14, 2008

    It staggers me that fringe groups can actually buy out pages of newspapers to soapbox like that. Is it commonplace?

  2. #2 Bob O'H
    February 14, 2008

    There has been some good news whilst you’ve been virtually challenged. We now have icons to use for posts like these. Even polite ones for wimps like me.

    Bob

  3. #3 genewitch
    February 14, 2008

    i hadn’t even heard about this crap until about october or so of last year. It’s maddening, honestly. Why do people hold such strong beliefs? I really want to know. I want to cull that gene out of the pool, because it disgusts me. badly.
    :-(

  4. #4 Kevin S
    February 14, 2008

    I’m guessing antifreeze also comes from “polyethylene glycol pisooctylphenyl ether” since once kind of antifreeze is ethylene glycol. I think the anti-vax mavens are incapable of understanding chemical names. They seem to mistake them for an ingredients list like you’d find on a box of cereal.

  5. #5 Beowulff
    February 14, 2008

    Just out of curiosity, how are vaccines tested? If it is unethical to withhold the recommended vaccines from a child, this must mean that the only way to test a new vaccine is to administer it along with all the already accepted and recommended vaccines. Is this true? If so, than the statement from the ad that vaccines are only tested individually is patently false.

    Also, I find it hard to believe that nobody has ever checked whether the concentrations of ingredients from all vaccines combined ever get above their maximum dosages, or at the very least of all vaccines that are administered at the same time. Does anyone have any information on that?

  6. #6 Michael Ralston
    February 14, 2008

    Beowulff: Well, vaccines for something not currently covered are reasonably easy to ethically test – give to people of the right age, follow a control group that doesn’t get it, etc.

    Vaccines that are designed to replace another vaccine are trickier, and I’m curious as to how those can be ethically tested as well.

  7. #7 Beowulff
    February 14, 2008

    Michael Ralston: yeah, but my point is: aren’t both groups also given all the other vaccinations that are already recommended or required? If so, than new vaccines are in fact always tested in combination with the already accepted vaccines, instead of always tested individually, as the ad claims.

  8. #8 A'Llyn
    February 14, 2008

    Wait, isn’t there mercury and heavy metal in computers (or am I making this up because you’re not supposed to throw them in landfills)?

    You’re onto something here! We should demand that these organizations follow up on the mercury thing by investigating the infiltration of consumer electronics into our unsuspecting households over the past couple of decades.

  9. #9 Lucas McCarty
    February 14, 2008

    Aye, giving a new vaccine to a test group is quite easy. What’s hard is testing an already used vaccine by giving it to a test group, but then not giving it to a control group that would otherwise recieve it: they’re being deprived of it’s protection. Then there’s the herd immunity to factor in.

    What Generation Rescue doesn’t understand/refuses to accept is that the study they’re demanding happens all the time: we are already constantly exposed to hundreds of thousands of foreign agents at any one time from the moment of birth. I seriously doubt the paltry single thousands in vaccines are going to make much difference unless there is a genuinely controversial thing in them.

  10. #10 JM
    February 14, 2008

    I’m sorry I really have to react to the tone of this post, which quite frankly is vicious.

    (Full disclosure – I’m fully pro-science, I agree completely with your concerns re. the anti-vacinnation movement, and both of my children have been fully vaccinnated including the UK triple antigen that seems to have set this “moral panic” off)

    But. You are being far too snarky. And extremely inconsiderate to the parents and families of autistic children.

    The fact is there has been a large rise in autism over the last few decades, it has caused enourmous pain – and we don’t know what’s caused it.

    It’s not just diagnosis. The increase is seen across nations and does not follow discontinuous jumps as diagnositic criteria are revised. DSM-IV applies in the US, other standards – although similar – are used elsewhere and their introduction wasn’t simultaneous.

    Aside from studies, anecdotally I can see the change. I see a number of children amongst my childrens school friends who are austistic and I am quite sure that the incidence exceeds that I experienced when I went to school. My son plays with a midly autistic boy who is our neighbour. When I went to school, that little boy would have been regarded as retarded.

    It is good to dispell bad arguments, but it is cruel to compare those arguments to bogus correllations with the introduction of CD’s and PC’s.

    This is not the creation/ID debate. We are not dealing with deluded bigots who willfully inflict cruelty and ignorance on your children and mine.

    We are dealing with heartbroken parents who are trying to care for their own children and however misguidely trying to protect others.

    You have a good blog here which I read often, but this particular post is not a good look. Unlike PV’s funny and savage demolitions of evil and stupid monsters who wish only ill on their victims, you’re coming across as a jerk.

    What is the cause of the rise in autism? We don’t know. And saying that because we don’t know, that our opponents must be wrong is _exactly_ the same argument that the ID denialists are using.

    I’m sure you can see the irony.

  11. #11 BGT
    February 14, 2008

    JM, you are missing the point of the post. This post isn’t about the parents, it is about the proliferation of pseudoscience, which to me has the same effect as pushing ID or creationism. The suffering of parents of children who have autism is not the point, the point is people making misrepresentations about what causes autism. Orac isn’t making the claim that science has the answer for the cause of autism, but he is pointing out that the anti-vaxers know a lot less than the researchers. Additionally, the anti-vaxers are practicing scare mongering techniques to promote pet theories that have no science behind them. I am much more worried about the ramifications of NOT vaccinating my child than I am about the the possible side effects of vaccination. That is an informed decision, not a blind one.

  12. #12 Orac
    February 14, 2008

    Give me a break, JM. I was exactly as snarky as this ad, Generation Rescue, and Jenny McCarthy deserved. Dangerous fools like them anger me–and quite rightly so, I would argue! Your complaint strikes me as nothing but the common doggerel of accusing skeptics of meanness or arrogance.

    In fact, if anything, I held my fire at this ad. Moreover, the fact is that, while there has been a huge increase in autism diagnoses over the last 25 years, it’s highly questionable whether this represents any sort of increase in the true prevalence of autism, as this study strongly suggests. In other words, conditions that used to be called something else now fall under the autism/ASD/PDD-NOS rubric, the latter two of which were generally diagnosed until the 1990s, while all the while diagnoses of mental retardation fell. Couple that with increased awareness, and it explains much of the alleged “autism epidemic.”

    I’ve said time and time again that I’m very much sympathetic with parents and their difficulties raising autistic children. That’s another reason that Handley and McCarthy (and their ilk) annoy me so.. It’s they who perpetuate such misinformation and lies. It’s they who waste scientists’ time investigating, re-investigating, and reinvestigating yet again the vaccine hypothesis, when large study after large study keep failing to find a link.

    As for your experience, realize that human experience one of the most deceptive ways of determining causation. It’s prone to all sorts of biases, such as confirmation bias, confusing correlation with causation, etc. These are all very well discussed in Snake Oil Science by R. Barker Bausell. Scientists are different only in that they recognize these biases (at least most of the time) and use a special method to minimize them: the scientific method. These are the same biases and cognitive quirks that lead parents to think that vaccines caused their child’s autism. After all, the first symptoms of autism often appear around vaccination time just by coincidence.

    Finally, your last paragraph is a big fat straw man. You accuse me of an argument from ignorance, which any objective reading would clearly fail to find in my post. First off, you proceed from a false premise, namely that there is an “autism epidemic” to begin with. That is questionable at best. Second, all I said was that vaccines do not cause autism. I said nothing about what might or might not be the cause of autism. Whatever that is, we now have good epidemiological and scientific evidence that it is almost certainly not vaccines.

    Oh, and the comparison to creationists was just silly.

  13. #13 Ruth
    February 14, 2008

    JM-

    I am mother to 2 kids on the spectrum, and many who comment here are ASD or parents to ASD kids. Please consider how much time and resources are wasted on GR’s nonsense-money and researchers time that could help my kids. I also hate the ‘my kids are toxic waste dumps’ bleatings. My daughters are beautiful children who view the world differently because they are wired differently.

    Why is there more ASD diagnosed? Orac has blogged extensively on changing diagnostic criteria. By todays criterea, my father, brother and I would be on the spectrum. As a kid, I was just called weird. My brother lived with face-blindness for 45 years before it was given a name (no wonder he chose to work alone in a lab).

    Orac, please continue being snarky. I am teaching my Aspie kid to grow up to be a skeptic, too.

    Somewhat off topic, but years ago I saw a series of photos of common foods, with their chemical ingredients listed. If you are chemophobic, do you give up eating oranges and strawberries because they have esters in them? You could take the woo supplements Handley force-feeds his kid and find ‘toxins’ worse than vaccines, if you looked deeply enough.

  14. #14 Paul
    February 14, 2008

    Does the USA have anything like the UK’s Advertising Standards Authority, to whom complaints about the accuracy of advertising can be referred for adjudication e.g. http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/non_broadcast/Adjudication+Details.htm?Adjudication_id=41436
    http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/non_broadcast/Adjudication+Details.htm?Adjudication_id=40618

  15. #15 Lilly de Lure
    February 14, 2008

    I don’t know if there is such a thing as too much snark for people who deliberately misread, misinterpret and mispresent the facts in order to promote their particular bugbear, especially when, in the process, they are putting other people’s children in danger.

    I was almost tempted to use the word “lie” in addition there but I genuinely don’t think that very many anti-vaxxers actually lie. They are simply so convinced that they are right that they refuse to listen to all the evidence against their beliefs.

    As a result they insist on resurrecting a discredited scare story in the International Press at every available oppportunity and with no evidence to back themselves up. What they are doing, whatever their motivations for doing it, is essentially yelling “Fire” in the crowded Cinema and they should be treated accordingly.

  16. #16 Inquisitive Raven
    February 14, 2008

    Coturnix has a link to a story about a possible connection between maternal antibodies and autism. I thought you might want to take a look.

  17. #17 wheatdogg
    February 14, 2008

    It’s the personal computer. Apple, IBM, Commodore, Atari, etc., all had personal computers out by 1983, and they have only become more pervasive in schools and in homes. Children even carry them around with them, in their backpacks! Clearly, computers cause autism.

  18. #18 Sharon
    February 14, 2008

    Thanks for this post Orac, and all the work you do in exposing the rubbish of the anti-vaccine/autism-as-poison groups.

    JM, you said, “We are dealing with heartbroken parents who are trying to care for their own children and however misguidely trying to protect others.”

    I have an autistic son, and like Ruth, I’m am mightily pissed off at the depiction of him and people like him as ‘damaged’ and ‘poisoned’ and in need of detoxification. He’s not toxic, he’s just different.

    The people behind this ad do real harm to autistic people, with their demonisation and lies. The deserve to have knowledgeable people like Orac tear into their nonsense.
    And I don’t want my children picking up infectious diseases just because there aren’t enough people responsible enough to vaccinate their children.

  19. #19 HCN
    February 14, 2008

    JM, as a parent of a disabled child (not autistic, but affected by resources sucked away for other causes), I feel that we can defend ourselves. Thank you very much.

    Personally, the GR folks need all the snark available aimed towards them. They are actually endangering other health imparied children by effectively degrading herd immunity, like what happened to these boys:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1055533.ece

  20. #20 Dawn
    February 14, 2008

    I had to laugh at JM’s comment, because he proved Orac’s point with his little anecdote.

    “My son plays with a midly autistic boy who is our neighbour. When I went to school, that little boy would have been regarded as retarded.”

    And when you went to school, that little boy would have been put in an institution and you would not have ever known of his existence.

    I attended school with a child who probably now would have been diagnosed at least at PDD-NOS. Mike was violent, stimmed, had little language, and had sensory issues. As kids, we were afraid of his anger. The teachers dealt with him the best they could. I can still recall the times the principal (male, ex-football player) and janitor (also male, weight lifter) would have to come and wrestle Mike out of the classroom because he had lost all control. Today, the poor kid would have had some help. Then, he had nothing.

    (Oh…and BTW…his family were “survivalists” and never had any of their kids vaccinated because of their beliefs. I can still recall hearing my mother, who was friends with the school nurse, talk about the battles re: exemptions for him regarding the vaccines).

    In my family, there were members who today would be diagnosed as autistic, PDD-NOS, or Ausperger’s. We have family letters going back to the 20′s and 30′s where traits are discussed that today would get the child diagnosed as on the spectrum. Today, the kids HAVE the official diagnosis and are getting the help they need. Then, the kids were just considered “a little strange” or “naughty” or “maybe a bit retarded”.

  21. #21 Fisher
    February 14, 2008

    …three siblings – two of whom attend a charter school in San Diego – were diagnosed with the potentially fatal viral infection.
    None of the youngsters had been inoculated against the disease.
    Two of the siblings go to the San Diego Cooperative Charter School in Linda Vista, which has the highest percentage of students not vaccinated for measles among any campus in the city, said officials from the San Diego Unified School District.
    Ten percent of Cooperative’s 380 students were not vaccinated. The figure for most schools in San Diego County is 1 percent to 2 percent.

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20080204-1858-bn04measles.html
    My son was hospitalized at two weeks of age because of a friend and her children who dropped by to see the new baby. She failed to mention she had kept her three sick kids out of school that week.
    With these siblings going to after school activities, b-day parties, etc., how many other young kids have been exposed? The ignorance and irresponsibility of these folk is frightening.

  22. #22 Calli Arcale
    February 14, 2008

    What bothers me the most about Generation Rescue and the like isn’t the fact that they are against vaccines (though that does infuriate me). If that were all, I’d write them off as yet another bunch of pseudoscientific woo-mongers. What bothers me the most is that they are totally uninterested in finding the real cause(s) of autism and instead are taking out their frustrations on the world. There is a real retaliatory tone to a lot of their work, and this disgusting ad is a prime example. To them, this is war. And that’s why they are willing to take any weapon at all — poorly designed studies, pseudoscientific gibberish, and even outright falsehoods — and use them. Because to them, the ends justify the means. And the end is not to cure their children. They claim it is, and hide behind cries of “don’t you care about my children?”, but what they’re really out to do is find someone to blame for their childrens’ condition.

    They have a lot in common with protest groups such as PETA. While I think it is very important to treat animals ethically, I think PETA is so far off the deep end that it isn’t even remotely funny. Like Generation Rescue, they are so focused on vilifying the opposition that they don’t even notice that their stated goal is slipping further and further away.

    I can tolerate PETA more easily, because they’re worried about animals. Generation Rescue is dealing with children, and that makes their misinformation orders of magnitude more harmful. That bothers me far more than the fact that they oppose vaccination. Vaccination is just a bogeyman, as evidenced by the fact they’re already laying groundwork for other bogeymen. Thimerosal has been exonerated; once the rest of the vaccine components are exonerated, they will simply latch on to something else. This seems insane, but only if one is interested in seeking the truth. They’re not. They just want vengeance, and vaccines are currently a convenient proxy target for that.

  23. #23 Interrobang
    February 14, 2008

    It’s actually pretty crazy right on the face of it to compare the state of the art in medicine 25 years ago to now (as it will be to compare 2008′s state of the art to 2033′s). For example, I know when I was a kid, if you were physically handicapped, they tested you to see if you weren’t also mentally handicapped, because that was sort of the default assumption, even among medical people. That has definitely changed since I was little, just a smidge over 25 years ago.

    So yeah, they deserve all the vitriol they’re getting, on numerous grounds. Besides which, if you dislike the tone in which something gets said, it’s a big internet; go get your own blog and write your own impeccably polite post on why the anti-vaccination crowd is full of, uh, the organic substance emitted from the north end of a southbound male bovine.

  24. #24 Clare
    February 14, 2008

    Some parents resist the “poisoned” “damaged” tags applied to kids on the autism spectrum; some don’t. Not all parents feel as desperate as JM suggests, but some do, and it’s worth bearing in mind the tremendous social pressures that exist — on kids to excel, for parents to do anything, everything they can to help their kids etc. etc. — that are in part responsible for these kinds of feelings. Despite a greater willingness in the culture today to acknowledge the biological or genetic components of disease, appearance, or personality, there remains a stubborn insistence on tracing a child’s quirks and idiosyncracies to some fault on the parent’s part. If it isn’t said out loud, it’s implied in dirty looks, anonymous complaints and so on and so forth. My friend with an autistic son has said that she’s got to the point that she only socializes with other parents of autistic, ADHD, TS kids because everyone else is so haughty and critical,and frankly, she has enough to deal with as it is. Would some magical connection between vaccines and autism makes things better? If it could be said that bad things happened as a result of doing what you, as a dutiful, dedicated parent, thought was good, it might ease the pressure up a little. In other words, the vaccines-autism fantasy is very seductive not just because it suggests a simple cause for a complex problem, but it speaks to important cultural concerns by diverting some of the blame that can otherwise fall on parents.

  25. #25 Mister DNA
    February 14, 2008

    Hi, Orac,

    To piggyback on Bob O’Hara’s comment, we’d be delighted to have you as a member of BPSDB.org – I’m going to be making icons for Blogging on Pseudo-Historical matters, too.

  26. #26 ozzy
    February 14, 2008

    JM stated: “My son plays with a midly autistic boy who is our neighbour. When I went to school, that little boy would have been regarded as retarded.”

    That statement is a fine example of the point we are trying to make. One of the main reasons that autism is increasing is that children who previously would have been labelled “retarded” are now being labelled as having autism.

  27. #27 Ruth
    February 14, 2008

    Clare-You do make some valid points. My problem is friends and family who then assume I’m a bad mom for not chelating out the Hg so my kids will be like everyone else and not mess up their neat little world.

  28. #28 HCN
    February 14, 2008

    Ruth, once upon a time I had an email correspondent through a disability listserv. It seems that someone she met had decided to drop all the conventional OT/PT, speech therapy and special ed. preschool because the chelation was going to fix her kid.

    Who is the bad mom then? The mom shlepping her kid to therapy appointment two to four times a week, and then spending quality time with the school team during IEP meetings… or the mom who thinks dumping more chemicals into the kid will remove the evil (but teeny tiny bit) of some other chemical? (okay, just today I read that aluminum is a heavy metal… on what planet?!)

  29. #29 Lucas McCarty
    February 14, 2008

    Last year the Observer did a reckless story about a new non-existent MMR scare using data leaked from Simon Baron-Cohen’s Cambridge research team. The article not only compromised the study integrity but misrepresented the data and outright lied about things Professor Baron-Cohen supposedly said.

    I don’t know if the study has been published yet, but the whole purpose of it was to see how using different methods of measuring recorded incidence affects the numbers that come out. From what info that was released to correct the Observer’s idiotic fear-mongering(which had to be withdrawn from their website for ‘legal reasons’), it appeared that different methods of recording the incidence did have a drastic effect on the numbers detected.

    Why is this important to what JM has said here? Because to say that Autism actually has surged with nothing but ancedotal evidence to support it, ancedotes which are reasonably addressed by rational thinking which the Cambridge group’s study appears to completely support, it throws caution away. It’s what constantly motivates me to point out that as an Autistic I daily live the consequences of the sum of all things said about Autism. My well-being and future is tied up in what the majority of people and people in responsible positions think about Autism. It’s all jeoposed when what their heads contain on the issue is nonsense.

    If we believe absurdities, we will commit atrocities.

  30. #30 Ruth
    February 14, 2008

    HCN-Once upon a time I was an organic chemist (before I became an OT/PT/speech therapist/mom). I have a real respect for what nasty chemicals can do, but traces of aluminum don’t alarm me. The only cases of Al poisoning I found in Pubmed were for chronic exposure in dialysis patients, where traces of Al can build up. But I’m sure someone will be treating this ‘heavy metal’ poisoning with cinnabar(HgS) as part of ancient Indian/Chinese medicine.

  31. #31 Tlazolteotl
    February 14, 2008

    Ruth – also a chemist here, and yes, we should make groceries list all the chemical components in fruits and veggies, shouldn’t we? After all, stupidity should be painful, though I am saddened that the state of science education is so poor in this country that kids aren’t at least getting a little basic chemistry in junior high or high school (not even in biology class, apparently, where they could introduce kids to the main chemical moieties and give an overview of a Krebs diagram).

    It makes you wonder how badly the chemophobic would freak over common sugars (double-moiety! both an ether and an alcohol!) and amino acids (both an acid and an amine! oh noes!!!). Then there are the really unpronounceable natural products of plants, like the pigments. And then we can really get them with the supplements too! Instead of Omega-3 supplements with DHA, they have to call it docosahexaenoic acid.

    Cinnabar? Mmm! That sounds an awful lot like cinnamon!

  32. #32 DuWayne
    February 14, 2008

    Clare -

    Like me, my six year old has severe ADHD (to give some grasp of the severity, click my name, I’ve blogged about it). I too find it very refreshing to spend time with the parents of and kids who are autistic, ADHD or bipolar. My son certainly has his behavior problems, the worse being that he has the impulse control of a shark in bloody water. But as we have been working on strategies for dealing with it, and accepted that this will always be an ongoing process, we are getting through it.

    I think the thing that really just set me off the worse, was a friend who’s daughter is rather devious and underhanded about her misbehavior. She is just as badly behaved as my child, if not worse, but because she tries to and often does, get away with it, her parents just don’t see it. Whereas my son is completely overt about his behavior and defiance. What you see is what you get. Not once, has he ever tried to hide anything from us. But the fact that he says “no, I’m going to do (insert negative behavior),” he’s just a badly behaved kid.

    One of his very closest friends is an aspie. It’s a riot when they hang out, because both of them are very empathetic. So my son is quick to kindly point out his social feaux pas, and he in turn, is regularly coaching my son to just do as he was asked, so they can play some more.

    Things are a little more interesting when he plays with a little girl we know who also has severe ADHD. They both get pretty defiant with each other, with her usually winning in the end, because he is becoming increasingly convinced that it is just easier when you do as the girls ask.

    I definitely get more than a little pissed off at the anti-vaxers, anti-autism sentiment. I have befriended a “low” functioning autistic teen, who really enjoyed my music and wanted to spend time with me, learning music theory. He has his problems, but his perspective on the world and on music, has been exciting and even influenced my songwriting. Too, he picked up the nuts and bolts of music theory, like you wouldn’t believe. He still can’t play an instrument, but he can “hear” the music, as he reads it. He has started writing his own music and is more than a little competent at it. He also loves to sit in the library for hours on end, reading sheet music. He would be the first to agree with me on this, I am very glad that he wasn’t “cured” of his autism. His folks, as difficult as raising him has been and continues to be, agree as well.

  33. #33 DLC
    February 15, 2008

    Orac: Re: Snarkyness: More Snarkyness is better, when it comes to these blithering idiots.
    As I said the last time this one came up, the anti-vax crowd should find a lab with a GCMS and test a sample of ordinary tap water. Aside from a large quantity of Dihydrogren monoxide, they’ll find all sorts of “dangerous” chemicals, including but not limited to Iron, aluminum, lead, mercury, phosphors, sulfurs, florine, chlorine and formeldehyde. Apparently it’s fine to pour a half gallon to a gallon a day of that “deadly chemical soup” down thier throats, but somehow a few micrograms of neomycin are right out.

  34. #34 Adam Cuerden
    February 15, 2008

    Ignoring the obvious stupidity, has the creator of that ad ever seen a syringe in their life? Both of them are horribly deformed – the one on the left would be very hard to push down the plunger of, because someone made the plunger far, far too long. But at least you could push down the plunger on that one – the one on the right has a plunger so short that it’s hard to see how the contents got in there in the first place, and they ain’t comin’ out through that needle….

  35. #35 anonimouse
    February 15, 2008

    I am shocked(!) that Generation Rescue is suddenly being outed as anti-vaccine.

    I’ve always known that.

    As to the question of testing – since kids who are getting these shots are ostensibly getting their other shots (since minimum standards of care would dictate that these kids are getting vaccinated) we ARE testing these vaccines with other vaccines. That has been, and continues to be, the most pathologically stupid anti-vaccine argument ever.

    Look, let’s get real. At some point Generation Rescue is going to run out of credulous celebrities to fleece, or wealthy marks to sucker. Then it’s going to be J.B. Handley and his band of merry puppets shouting on streetcorners about how the apocalypse is coming thanks to Gardasil and FluMist.

  36. #36 Anne
    February 15, 2008

    While I do not believe that vaccines cause autism, I have to disagree with the idea that vaccines are tested against all of the other US vaccines, and therefore safe… Rotateq is one of the newest vaccines to be added to the US schedule and the majority of the safety and efficacy testing was done in other countries. Yes, other vaccines were allowed to be administered cocomitantly – but every country has their own vaccination schedules, and most do not contain nearly as many vaccines and doses as the US schedule. So the true US safety testing for Rotateq is taking place this year (aka “post marketing surveillance”). If you read the clinical testing sections any vaccine package insert, it is relatively shocking how little they are tested before they are mandated.

  37. #37 rilly rilly ticked
    February 15, 2008

    What I think is funny is that Jenny’s career has totally tanked. And it appears that Jim Carrey’s has also. Then he’s aligning himself with the Scientologists (both Jenny and Jim attended Tom Cruise’s wedding and there weren’t that many people invited to that wedding). So how much of the antivax ad was about Scientologists trying to show that there is no autism that it’s all about toxins and thetans? Interestingly, thought Jenny started out with a “crystal” child, he morphed into an “autistic” child and now he’s morphed again into a “normal” child. Since you can’t have an autistic kid and be a Scientologist, that looks a little suspicious to me.

    And now Jenny’s pregnant, with Jim’s kid presumably. Will Jenny be giving birth in silence? Their kid has a good chance of being both unvaccinated AND autistic, given who and what his parents are. Will this kid be a ‘crystal’, like his older half-brother or will he just be like the Travolta boy.

    One can only hope that people in Hollywood will start to treat these two idiots like they carry a plague, because they do.

  38. #38 anonimouse
    February 15, 2008

    If you read the clinical testing sections any vaccine package insert, it is relatively shocking how little they are tested before they are mandated.

    If by this you mean “tested in thousands of subjects in long-term Phase III trials before being marketed to the public” (government mandates normally come some time AFTER the product is licensed) then yes, it’s shocking.

  39. #39 mick
    February 15, 2008

    This was a good start with regards to detecting how ethyl mercury is eliminated from the body. Most, if not all, toxins are removed in the same manner. Funny thing about mercury; it crosses the blood brain barrier and deposits into brain tissue. The study did not take this into account, nor measure hair samples which would have been critical in truly determining if ethyl mercury is linked to ASD’s. In research that has measured hair samples the findings reveal that autistic children have a much lower rate of elimination with respect to hair samples. Children who are not autistic had much greater levels of ethyl mercury elimination from their respective hair samples. Read the actual study before you report your agenda.

  40. #40 Orac
    February 15, 2008

    Ah, the myth of the “poor excretor” strikes again!

    Sorry, but that’s one that’s just not well supported at all, DeSoto and Hitlan notwithstanding.

  41. #41 Mick
    February 15, 2008

    So you think this is the only study that refutes the relationship? How about autopsies of vaccine injured children with deposits of hg and al in concentrations 2 times greater than what the epa allows per year?

  42. #42 notmercury
    February 15, 2008

    “How about autopsies of vaccine injured children with deposits of hg and al in concentrations 2 times greater than what the epa allows per year?”

    Linky linky, pretty please?

  43. #43 Mick
    February 15, 2008

    Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal
    Thomas M. Burbacher,1,2,3 Danny D. Shen,4 Noelle Liberato,1,2,3 Kimberly S. Grant,1,2,3 Elsa Cernichiari,5 and Thomas Clarkson5

    The authors declare they have no competing financial interests.

    The large difference in the blood Hg half-life compared with the brain half-life for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys (6.9 days vs. 24 days) indicates that blood Hg may not be a good indicator of risk of adverse effects on the brain, particularly under conditions of rapidly changing blood levels such as those observed after vaccinations. The blood concentrations of the thimerosal-exposed monkeys in the present study are within the range of those reported for human infants after vaccination (Stajich et al. 2000). Data from the present study support the prediction that, although little accumulation of Hg in the blood occurs over time with repeated vaccinations, accumulation of Hg in the brain of infants will occur. Thus, conclusion regarding the safety of thimerosal drawn from blood Hg clearance data in human infants receiving vaccines may not be valid, given the significantly slower half-life of Hg in the brain as observed in the infant macaques.

    Would you like more non-refutable evidence? Or is this study a farce as well?

  44. #44 HCN
    February 15, 2008

    Mick said “Would you like more non-refutable evidence? Or is this study a farce as well?”

    Well, since you asked:
    http://bartholomewcubbins.blogspot.com/2007/01/bc-on-autism-revisiting-burbacher-2005.html

  45. #45 notmercury
    February 15, 2008

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but you said “…autopsies of vaccine injured children with deposits of hg and al…”
    so I was sort of expecting something to do with autopsies, humans, and autism.

    So where is the evidence I missed in the Burbacher study?

  46. #46 cooler
    February 15, 2008

    can someone please provide the study where about 2000 or so people with no thimerosol intake are compared to about 2000 people who took the 1991 levels, and looked for differences in autism etc.

    Also can you guys please give me the original toxicology studies from the 30′s that proved mercury was safe to put in vaccines in the first place. I can find them for Splenda (animal models etc) but not for thimerosol. Thanks! waiting.

  47. #47 anonimouse
    February 16, 2008

    cooler knows that not only does no such study exist, such a study would be impossible to do for any number of ethical reasons. Nice try, though. Got any other pathetic anti-vax canards?

  48. #48 DuWayne
    February 16, 2008

    cooler -

    No. Addressing you is pointless. You move the goalposts, you obfuscate and get very circular with your arguments. You refuse to address reasonable and legitimate responses to your arguments. You talk about your boner and seem to think that personal attacks are a reasonable rhetorical tool, unless of course they are addressed to you.

    Most importantly, you are completely and utterly divorced from reality. Absolutely nothing I have ever seen from you, is willing even to consider the general, evidence based consensus on anything. Everything is a conspiracy to you. Everyone from scientists to the government are involved in some amorphous conspiracy or another, possibly one giant one.

    I do not say this as a rhetorical tool. I do not say this to be insulting either. I will not try to debate you, because I am nearly certain that you are extremely mentally ill.

  49. #49 cooler
    February 16, 2008

    hahahahahah. So funny, you guys don’t have one properly designed study! LOL what a joke. You cant find 2000 people somewhere in the world that would never have take vaccines anyways, hell what about 1000, and make a comparasin with vaccinated kids from the early 90′s! I love it! Classic!

    You’ve made your hypothesis unfalsifiable, for you make convoluted excuses why the most scientifically revealing study can’t be conducted, therefore your hypothesis is unscientific!

    And you’ve just admitted there were also no original safety studies done in the 30′s like there was for Splenda etc, and then you call us Woo’s!

  50. #50 HCN
    February 16, 2008

    Remember, cooler still believes in the Tooth Fairy and pixies. It is best to ignore s/he/it.

  51. #51 Freddy the Pig
    February 16, 2008

    HCN – and as I mentioned elsewhere, Cooler is unable to use Ockham’s Razor because s/he/it is not allowed to have sharp objects.

  52. #52 John Best
    February 16, 2008

    Children who have been cured +/or improved by chelation prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that mercury caused the autism epidemic.

    Babies did not receive much mercury in 1931 when Eli Lilly invented autism because there were not very many vacines. They also were not injected with mercury on the day they were born.

    Now, they are poisoned in the womb by the mother’s flu shot which contains mercury. This is even more effective than the HepB shot on day one at causing autism since the tiny fetus receives a much higher dose per pound.

    It’s time you medical jerks stopped harming babies and admit that you screwed up.

    It’s also time you morally bankrupt idiots took the thimerosal out of vaccines that are shipped to the third world. Do you know that exorcism is being widely used in Africa to deal with autism? Do you money grubbing scoundrels get a good laugh out of that?

  53. #53 John Beast
    February 16, 2008

    Also did you morally bankrupt idiots got me sacked from being a Generation Rescue Rescue Angel?

    It was nothing to do with me writing fantasies about being sodomised on my blog! It was you!! Its always someone else’s fault!!

  54. #54 Joseph
    February 16, 2008

    Children who have been cured +/or improved by chelation prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that mercury caused the autism epidemic.

    Let’s see the case reports.

    Do you know that exorcism is being widely used in Africa to deal with autism?

    Do you know that exorcism is about as effective as chelation? Why do you think people keep practicing it?

  55. #55 notmercury
    February 16, 2008

    John is scripting again.

  56. #56 Anonymous
    February 16, 2008

    “Personally, the GR folks need all the snark available aimed towards them. They are actually endangering other health imparied children by effectively degrading herd immunity, like what happened to these boys:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1055533.ece

    Thanks HCN for reminding us that you have to go back to 2004 to come up with anything to scaremonger about. Of course, it’s clear that the article was used to smear Wakefield and to scare the people of Great Britain.

    Also, thanks to the article… it is obvious that the doctors screwed up:

    “This was something I’d never seen before. We had to think much harder about what it could be and decided to test for measles, even though measles-associated encephalitis hasn’t been seen in the UK for many years.

    The tests came back positive. Matthew and Joe were fighting for their lives against an affliction that British doctors thought had been consigned to the history books”.

    Again proving the point that doctors make mistakes. It happens all too often. I hope that the doctors learned a lesson from their mistake.

  57. #57 Hey Zeus is my homeboy
    February 16, 2008

    Of course, it’s clear that the article was used to smear Wakefield and to scare the people of Great Britain.

    The only thing that smears Wakefield is Wakefield himself and his actions. The real question is whether the man is just amazingly stupid or whether he’s a chronic liar.

    Wait, I guess there really is no question there.

  58. #58 amomimous
    February 16, 2008

    Did you know that chelators are toxins? Did you know that you can make a kid sick with them? Did you know that they can move lead from the body into the brain with a chelator? Did you know that people have been killed by chelation, no, make that did you know that people have been killed by chelationists?

    The amount of thimerosal in vaccines has never harmed any baby in born or unborn, first world or third world, but John Best has harmed autistic people with his extremely abusive descriptions of them? Did you know he tells lies?

    I’d like to know which John would rather have, 2 million dollars or a cured son. If he got his 2 million dollars would he happily put his son in an institution and go off and party?

  59. #59 HCN
    February 16, 2008

    Anonny said “Thanks HCN for reminding us that you have to go back to 2004 to come up with anything to scaremonger about.”

    Oh, sorry… it is just so terrible to bring up a well written story. Do you need something more recent?

    How about 200 dead children earlier this month:
    http://allafrica.com/stories/200802041067.html … Or are unimportant children because they are African?

    Oh, wait… look what happened this week in sparkly white Southern California:
    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/health/20080216-9999-1m16measles.html

    Just a reminder the MMR never ever contained thimerosal, and it was introduced in the USA in 1971.

  60. #60 Anonymous
    February 16, 2008

    “How about 200 dead children earlier this month:
    http://allafrica.com/stories/200802041067.html … Or are unimportant children because they are African”?

    Wow… unimportant because they are African? Lame strawman argument HCN. Let’s get back to reality.

    Are you suggesting that our medical care and/or our sanitation is on the same level as Africa? We are talking about a country where thousands of children die from STARVATION and DIARRHEA each year. Let’s put it in perspective.

    Also, who’s doing the counting on the numbers of deaths there? Are they better at counting than those who count the US’s flu deaths each year… Supposedly 36,000 people die here from the flu each year… The only problem? It’s not true. But by all means don’t let the facts get in the way of your scaremongering.

    As for your second article from California… How are the kids now? Did everyone recover nicely? Am I supposed to be terrified that 12 kids got the measles? It almost seems as if you want me to be… I’m not.

  61. #61 Anonymous
    February 16, 2008

    “How about 200 dead children earlier this month:
    http://allafrica.com/stories/200802041067.html … Or are unimportant children because they are African”?

    Wow… unimportant because they are African? Lame strawman argument HCN. Let’s get back to reality.

    Are you suggesting that our medical care and/or our sanitation is on the same level as Africa? We are talking about a country where thousands of children die from STARVATION and DIARRHEA each year. Let’s put it in perspective.

    Also, who’s doing the counting on the numbers of deaths there? Are they better at counting than those who count the US’s flu deaths each year… Supposedly 36,000 people die here from the flu each year… The only problem? It’s not true. But by all means don’t let the facts get in the way of your scaremongering.

    As for your second article from California… How are the kids now? Did everyone recover nicely? Am I supposed to be terrified that 12 kids got the measles? It almost seems as if you want me to be… I’m not.

  62. #62 HCN
    February 16, 2008

    The death rate from measles in developing countries is around 10% (1 out of 10). The death rate for measles in the United States during the last major outbreak was about 2 out of 1000:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15106092?

    Are you actually arguing that getting measles is less dangerous than the MMR? (which never contained thimerosal and was introduced in the USA in 1971).

    If you are going to use the “sanitation” gambit, then please tell us what happened in Japan when they made getting the measles vaccine voluntary, and the numbers of cases went from a low of under 900 per year to over 30000. Did they have a drastic change in sanitation practices, or suddenly go from a economic powerhouse to a developing country? Numbers are here:
    http://www.who.int/vaccines/globalsummary/immunization/timeseries/TSincidenceByCountry.cfm?country=Japan (by the way, they’ve started to vaccinate more with a measles-rubella vaccine, they have problems their own mumps vaccine and have not decided to use the Jeryl Lynn version).

    Did you not read the article on the measles outbreak in San Diego? Which may have spread to Hawaii (the child there is in a hospital). The kids are still sick and many more may become sick. Measles is highly communicable, and even if the sick person leaves the room the area is still infectious for a couple of hours. That is why the news article posts where and when measles carrier has been.

    What evidence do you have that measles, the actual disease, is harmless? Why should kids get a preventable disease?

  63. #63 Anonymous
    February 16, 2008

    “Are you actually arguing that getting measles is less dangerous than the MMR? (which never contained thimerosal and was introduced in the USA in 1971)”.

    We don’t know whether or not the benefits outweigh the risks in respect to the mmr. We don’t know because we don’t have all the facts to weigh against each other. In other words, if the factual information is that only 1 child in a million has a bad reaction to the shot where 2 out of 1000 children die as a result of measles… well, that might be one thing. If, however, the facts are that thousands of children suffer neurological disorders and/or GI problems, etc. etc. from an unsafe vaccination schedule (including but not limited to the live virus mmr) than that is a different story.

    The fact that the CDC/AAP/most of you here don’t *believe* that vaccinations play any role in these health problems doesn’t make it the truth… Until we know for sure… people need to weigh the risks for themselves and their own children.

  64. #64 Anonymous
    February 16, 2008

    “Why should kids get a preventable disease”?

    Oh yes, I wanted to add.

    Why should kids get a preventable disease? Well, we have different philosophies in regards to risks of vaccinations. So, having said that… I suppose that my answer would have to be… To prevent them from having neurological disorders and/or autoimmune diseases and/or food allergies, etc. etc.

    Again, just because you *think* that you are on the correct side of the argument does not mean that you are. Same goes for me. That’s the reason why people need to make up their own minds after doing their own research on the issue at hand.

  65. #65 MartinM
    February 16, 2008

    Until we know for sure… people need to weigh the risks for themselves and their own children.

    …and other people’s children, not to mention adults who were never vaccinated for medical reasons, or for whom the vaccine was unsuccessful, or whose immune systems are compromised.

    But hey, the nice thing about aiding the spread of preventable diseases is that you’ll probably never actually know most of the people your ignorance harms.

  66. #66 HCN
    February 16, 2008

    Anony said “To prevent them from having neurological disorders and/or autoimmune diseases and/or food allergies, etc. etc. ”

    It is obvious that you did not follow any of the links I posted. What evidence do you have that the vaccines cause more neurological disorders than the following:
    measles
    mumps
    Hib
    pertussis
    diphtheria
    polio

    Please do tell us where the verifiable evidence that the vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases. Give us those studies and papers.

    Here is a paper I found:
    http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/3/302

    I know you will not follow the link, nor read it for comprehension, so I’ll give you the highlights. First off the title is “Impact of Specific Medical Interventions on Reducing the Prevalence of Mental Retardation”

    Here are excerpts of some paragraphs: (the numbers in between the sentences are reference numbers, where you can go and look up where they got their information):

    “Approximately 1 in 1000 children with clinical measles develops encephalitis.36, 39 Although most children with encephalitis recover without sequelae, approximately 15% die and 25% of survivors develop complications such as MR.39 We assumed that approximately 1 in 5000 cases of measles leads to MR. ”

    “With regard to natural history, Hib meningitis was once the leading cause of acquired MR in the United States. Slightly more than half of the Hib meningitis invasive cases presented as meningitis, and one third of children with Hib meningitis went on to have MR. Approximately 1 in 10 children died from Hib meningitis.12, 39″

    “Infection with the rubella virus during pregnancy may lead to CRS. The association between maternal infection and fetal disease was first detected by Gregg59 in 1941, and 2 years later, Swan et al60 confirmed the occurrence of central nervous system abnormalities in affected infants. When maternal infection occurs during the first month of pregnancy, 50% of children will later be diagnosed with MR; overall, 10% of all of the cases of CRS result in MR.61 Because neonatal mortality in CRS is approximately 10%,62 we assumed that 9% of children born with CRS would later be diagnosed with MR. ”

    So please, tell us the evidence that vaccines are a major cause of neurological problems compared to the actual diseases.

  67. #67 cooler
    February 16, 2008

    The ad hominem attacks and evasions to this question are noted by people who claim to be all about the science. It’s a big joke.

    Can someone please provide the study where about 2000 or so people with no thimerosol intake are compared to about 2000 people who took the 1991 levels, and looked for differences in autism etc?

    Also can you guys please give me the original toxicology studies from the 30′s that proved mercury was safe to put in vaccines in the first place? I can find them for Splenda (animal models etc) but not for thimerosol. Thanks! waiting.

    My response to the defend the CDC at all costs trolls.

    hahahahahah. So funny, you guys don’t have one properly designed study! LOL what a joke. You cant find 2000 people somewhere in the world that would never have take vaccines anyways, hell what about 1000, and make a comparasin with vaccinated kids from the early 90′s! I love it! Classic!

    You’ve made your hypothesis unfalsifiable, for you make convoluted excuses why the most scientifically revealing study can’t be conducted, therefore your hypothesis is unscientific!

    And you’ve just admitted there were also no original safety studies done in the 30′s like there was for Splenda etc, and then you call us Woo’s!

  68. #68 HCN
    February 17, 2008

    cooler (while channelling the Tooth Fairy) managed to key into a computer keyboard (OMG! technology! electromagnetic fields): “Can someone please provide the study where about 2000 or so people with no thimerosol intake are compared to about 2000 people who took the 1991 levels, and looked for differences in autism etc?”

    Uh, yeah…
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/09/a_bad_day_for_antivaccinationists.php

    and then there are multiple studies over the last ten years in several countries listed here:
    http://www.immunize.org/journalarticles/conc_thim.asp

    Some of them include:
    Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links with Immunizations
    Authors: Fombonne E, Zakarian R, Bennett A, Meng L, McLean-Heywood D
    Source: Pediatrics, July 2006, Vol. 118(1):e139-e150

    Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Prospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
    Authors: Heron J, Golding J, ALSPAC Study Team
    Source: Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):577-583

    Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data
    Authors: Parker SK, Schwartz B, Todd J, Pickering LK
    Source: Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):793-804

    The Evidence for the Safety of Thimerosal in Newborn and Infant Vaccines
    Author: Clements CJ
    Source: Vaccine, May 7, 2004, Vol. 22(15-16):1854-1861

    Safety of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: A Two-Phased Study of Computerized Health Maintenance Organization Databases
    Authors: Verstraeten T, Davis RL, DeStefano F, et al
    Source: Pediatrics, November 2003, Vol. 112(5):1039-1048

    The Toxicology of Mercury–Current Exposures and Clinical Manifestations
    Authors: Clarkson TW, Magos L, Myers GJ
    Source: New England Journal of Medicine, October 30, 2003, Vol. 349(18):1731-7

    Association Between Thimerosal-Containing Vaccine and Autism
    Authors: Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M
    Source: Journal of the American Medical Association, October 1, 2003, Vol. 290(13):1763-6

    Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence from Danish Population-Based Data
    Authors: Madsen KM, Lauritsen MB, Pedersen CB, et al
    Source: Pediatrics, Sept. 2003, Vol. 112(3 Pt 1):604-606

    Vaccine Safety Policy Analysis in Three European Countries: The Case of Thimerosal
    Authors: Freed GL, Andreae MC, Cowan AE, et al
    Source: Health Policy, December 2002, Vol. 62(3):291-307

    These are mostly observational studies… basically comparing data sets of vaccinated versus unvaccinated subjects. Perhaps they don’t meet cooler’s standards. But, then again, why should we consider cooler’s standards when s/h/it has no concept of observational studies, experiments and the ethics of denying human subjects important medical treatments to prevent disease? Especially when it is up to cooler (and his fairy friends) to give us the evidence that the levels of thimerosal used now (much less than in a couple of decades ago) are a hazard.

    Where is your evidence, cooler? Did the Tooth Fairy take it away and leave you a nice little coin in its place?

  69. #69 cooler
    February 17, 2008

    That study is a joke, how stupid can these people be? Just compare 1000 people with no thimerosol to 1000 people with 1991 intake levels of thimersol. Are these scientists that stupid? Yes they are, thats why they don’t know how do properly design a study.

    Hell an average laymen could have designed a better study, just whip out a video camera and interview a village somewhere in the world where they dont vaccinate and see if the autism rate is the same as here.

  70. #70 Bronze Dog
    February 17, 2008

    Hell an average laymen could have designed a better study, just whip out a video camera and interview a village somewhere in the world where they dont vaccinate and see if the autism rate is the same as here.

    Right. Interviews with people who have no medical expertise in a society primitive enough to not have vaccinations, and thus not likely to have the ability to properly diagnose autism. Usually, such people tend to be more worried about surviving than about neurological quirks.

    Do you ever listen to yourself, cooler?

    Meanwhile, I’m still not seeing any proof of the danger. Of course, if cooler were inclined to actually care about evidence, I think I know what sorts of horrible things he’d be willing to do. In my experience, alties have no problems with treating humans like unconsenting lab rats.

    And of course, cooler has to appeal to a strange sort of reverse-meritocracy, where the layman’s uninformed opinion, free of bias-reducing measures dominates over experts who have been trained in the scientific method for years to cut out sources of noise like personal bias while respecting ethical concerns.

    I find it funny he was busy accusing us of being trailer trash not too long ago.

  71. #71 Azkyroth
    February 17, 2008

    Heh, it’s about the 9/11 troofers, but this comic pretty nicely sums up the anti-vax loonies.

  72. #72 Bronze Dog
    February 17, 2008

    May want to take a look back at Orac posting a link to that comic, Azky. That comic was a giant can of worms earlier. It got funnier as cooler kept going.

  73. #73 HCN
    February 17, 2008

    cooler said (possibly while s/h/it’s fairies were sleeping):
    “That study is a joke, how stupid can these people be? Just compare 1000 people with no thimerosol to 1000 people with 1991 intake levels of thimersol. Are these scientists that stupid? Yes they are, thats why they don’t know how do properly design a study.”

    Which one? Several were listed, and none of them spelled “thimerosal” like you did.

    Do you not understand that the observational studies included non-vaccinated children? Do you not understand the ethical issues with denying children medical treatments involuntarily (vaccines) to protect them from some serious diseases? When was the last time you took a basic statistics course?

    What are your fairy friends making you drink? It must be some fun stuff. First you cannot distinguish that a list of several studies is more than one, and that you were actually asked for evidence.

    Again, what is your evidence? List a real verifiable (and not trashed on this blog… hint: not authored by Blaxill or a Geier) journal paper.

    Your next post must inlude a link to a real scientific study, otherwise you are just a spamming loon.

  74. #74 Azkyroth
    February 17, 2008

    Really? That one, and not the “big pharmonster?” Huh…

  75. #75 Orac
    February 17, 2008

    Hell an average laymen could have designed a better study, just whip out a video camera and interview a village somewhere in the world where they dont vaccinate and see if the autism rate is the same as here.

    Now I know Cooler is nothing but a troll. Only a troll could say something so patently and obviously idiotic. Of course, Cooler is a 9/11 Trooofer; so it’s not surprising that his ignorance of science spills over into other areas, like epidemiology and vaccines.

  76. #76 John Best
    February 17, 2008

    HCN,
    Why do you bother listing all of that junk science? We already proved that thimerosal caused the epidemic of autism.

    You need to accept the truth and spread that knowledge so more autistic kids can be cured.

  77. #77 Bronze Dog
    February 17, 2008

    HCN,
    Why do you bother listing all of that junk science? We already proved that thimerosal caused the epidemic of autism.

    1. You can’t list a single legitimate criticism of any of those studies, can you? Afraid of the truth?

    2. How did you prove it, JB? We’ve been through this before. Whenever we ask questions about your data, you suddenly demand that we stop asking questions. Same thing goes for when you claim a cure. You think curiosity is a sin. You want us to just blindly trust you over everything else in the world. You want us to believe that you’re the only honest person on Earth. Your conspiracy apparently includes early chemists, who filled textbooks with false information about chemical bonds and Hg so that one day people could inject deadly thimerosal into kids for no reason.

    3. You’re the one caught up in a false hypothesis. As thimerosal use lowers around the world and autism diagnoses go up (conveniently at the same rate mental retardation diagnoses go down), you keep trying to heap on the blame. Thankfully, the world is rendering your conspiracy theory obsolete. If you had signed up for any other, you’d be a real force for the status quo.

  78. #78 Anonymous
    February 17, 2008

    “…and other people’s children, not to mention adults who were never vaccinated for medical reasons, or for whom the vaccine was unsuccessful, or whose immune systems are compromised.

    But hey, the nice thing about aiding the spread of preventable diseases is that you’ll probably never actually know most of the people your ignorance harms”.

    Well, yes, I suppose. That’s a fact of life. If there was a way that children could be tested to see if their immune systems could handle the attack or if we limited the amount of vaccinations, etc… than maybe you would have an argument. Unfortunately you don’t have an argument in that sense. Just by your own comment you recognize the fact that some people due to medical reasons cannot have (or should not have) certain vaccinations. So, may I ask… Do you really feel confident that you should be suggesting that people follow the CDC’s schedule for vaxx’s (if you do in fact suggest that)? Are you 100% confident that *all* one day old babies can handle the Hep B vaccine? What if my day old child has a “medical condition” that we are unaware of whereby making the vaccine dangerous? Would you know that? Of course not. So, who’s taking the unnecessary risk there?

    Of course it would be a tragedy if a child or anyone else for that matter were to die from what could be called a “preventable disease”. It is also a tragedy when other children’s health is sacrificed for the good of the herd.

  79. #79 Anonymous
    February 17, 2008

    “So please, tell us the evidence that vaccines are a major cause of neurological problems compared to the actual diseases”.

    Why, so you can rip it apart and cry about how it is “junk science”? I am very comfortable with my study and research into vaccinations and their adverse reactions and outcomes in children. Again, this is why research is necessary and parents need to do what is right for them and their children… for example, taking into consideration any family history, sibling “reactions” to vaccines, etc. What might be ok for one family may be devastating for another. The CDC does not account for this at all in their recommendations.

  80. #80 cooler
    February 17, 2008

    “Only a troll could say something so patently and obviously idiotic. Of course, Cooler is a 9/11 Trooofer; so it’s not surprising that his ignorance of science spills over into other areas, like epidemiology and vaccines.”

    Every fallacy in the book, guilt by association, no knowledge of how to properly design a study, same old drivel from government can’t tell a lie cranks.

    Like I said Orac, it’s not that hard, one group of kids n=1000 with 1992 levels of exposure, another group of kids n=1000 no thimersol exposure, and an examination of differences in Autism etc. Pretty sad such a study doesn’t exist, and you guys have also admitted there were no original toxicology/animal studies from the 1930′s proving it was ever even safe to put mercury in vaccines in the first place!

    A mathematics professor named Darin Brown wrote a great post on what this is all really about, unlike me, he’s smart enough to not to keep debating you people. One can only come to the conclusion that people like Orac et al have the “Taboo reaction” so eloquently described by Dr. Brown on issues such as HIV/9/11 etc.

    SLC,

    Your comments, even from someone “with a PhD in elementary particle physics”, remind me of the central sociological fact surrounding the reaction you embody:

    This has nothing to do with the HIV hypothesis. Nothing to do with the pros vs. cons of vaccine administration. Nothing to do with whether global warming is human-caused. Nothing to do with the cause of the 9-11 attacks. Nothing to do with the issues.

    It’s all about “joining the anti-crankery club”. It’s all about getting patted on the back for “being skeptical”. It’s all about wearing “Skeptical Inquirer” t-shirts and throwing around terms like “whackjob” (implying that anyone who doubts a consensus viewpoint is akin to ejaculate fluid) and “denier” (implying that anyone who doubts a consensus viewpoint is akin to Holocaust deniers). It’s all about having your ego stroked for helping in the fight against “scientific illiteracy” and “the cult of irrationality”. It’s all about the “taboo reaction” so eloquently and prophetically expressed by Feyerabend in Against Method years ago:

    “Science [relating another person's characterization] … is characterised by an essential scepticism; ‘when failures start to come thick and fast, defence of the theory switches inexorably to attack on it’.’ This is possible because of the ‘openness’ of the scientific enterprise, because of the pluralism of ideas it contains and also because whatever defies or fails to fit into the established category system is not something horrifying, to be isolated or expelled. On the contrary, it is an intriguing ‘phenomenon’ – a starting-point and a challenge for the invention of new classifications and new theories. We can see that Horton has read his Popper well. A field study of science itself shows a very different picture… Such a study reveals that, while some scientists may proceed as described, the great majority follow a different path. Scepticism is at a minimum; it is directed against the view of the opposition and against minor ramifications of one’s own basic ideas, never against the basic ideas themselves. Attacking the basic ideas evokes taboo reactions which are no weaker than are the taboo reactions in so-called “primitive societies.” Basic beliefs are protected by this reaction as well as by secondary elaborations, as we have seen, and whatever fails to fit into the established category system or is said to be incompatible with this system is either viewed as something quite horrifying or, more frequently, it is simply declared to be non-existent.”

    Read over the responses generated at this blog in reaction to HIV, vaccines, global warming, 9-11, etc. REGARDLESS OF THE MERITS OF THE DOUBTERS ON ANY OF THESE ISSUES, can anyone doubt that the “taboo reaction” expressed by the defenders of the faith here is any weaker than that in so-called “primitive societies”??

    darin

    Posted by: Darin Brown | January 13, 2008 6:57 PM

    Jesus Dr. Brown just broke you guys down, it’s so obvious in your primitive ad hominem based reactions to people who disagree with you!

  81. #81 Anonymous
    February 17, 2008

    HCN commented:

    “and then there are multiple studies over the last ten years in several countries listed here:
    http://www.immunize.org/journalarticles/conc_thim.asp

    Some of them include:
    Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links with Immunizations
    Authors: Fombonne E, Zakarian R, Bennett A, Meng L, McLean-Heywood D
    Source: Pediatrics, July 2006, Vol. 118(1):e139-e150″

    So, HCN, when you take a look at the VERY FIRST study which you reference, we find that it has been found to be completely flawed… Does that bother you? I do believe that an honest person from “your side” of the controversy will have to agree that the study fails to show anything of substance. You can read the following analysis on the Fombonne “study” here:

    http://www.vran.org/docs/Yazbak_2007-03-07_FLAWED_EPIDEMIOLOGY.pdf

    In case you are short on time, I will simply point out the most obvious and (quite funny) “mistake” that Mr. Fombonne made. Here is the quote:

    “The readers deserve to know why the authors compared developmental data from a specific group of children in Montreal with MMR vaccination data from the city of Quebec, some distance away”.

    So, basically Fombonne compared apples to oranges and then triumphantly proclaimed them to be … both fruit.

    Thanks Fombonne.

    Granted, you also have a plethora of other studies referenced. Frankly, I have to ask… Is it worth anyone’s time to plow through your studies when within a minute — your first study referenced is blown to smithereens? I don’t have that kind of time.

    “Perhaps they don’t meet cooler’s standards”.

    Ah, the irony… HCN being concerned that these studies don’t meet “cooler’s standards”… when I have easily shown one of HCN’s “studies” to be based upon a false premise.

    Don’t let the facts get in your way, HCN.

  82. #82 Orac
    February 17, 2008

    One notes that Cooler is once again utterly unable to describe any methodological flaws in the studies referenced and instead resorts to ad hominems.

    As usual.

    By the way, Cooler, pointing out that what you say is idiotic and that you appear to be trolling is not an ad hominem, given that there is abundant evidence in this thread and the 9/11 Truther cartoon thread to support such conclusions.

  83. #83 Anonymous
    February 17, 2008

    “One notes that Cooler is once again utterly unable to describe any methodological flaws in the studies referenced and instead resorts to ad hominems”.

    I’m not familiar with Cooler and his/her beliefs but do I get a prize or a medal of some kind for showing the “methodological flaws” in the Fombonne study? You know the study which many here would consider “real” science as opposed to the “junk science” that comes from “my side”. Oh, the irony.

    I’ll wait patiently.

  84. #84 SLC
    February 17, 2008

    Re ORAC

    We should point out that cooler the schmuck is also an HIV/AIDS denier. A perfect example of a world class whackjob. Rarely have we heard anyone speak so knowledgeably from such a vast fund of ignorance.

  85. #85 gibbon1
    February 17, 2008

    What PO’s me is that we’re wasting a lot of very precious researcher’s time running down the woo of the day in order to put a fork in it when we have other pressing problems to sort. In short wasting these peoples time costs people their lives and health.

  86. #86 Robster, FCD
    February 17, 2008

    You’ll have to put it into youtube form for cooler to accept it. He got his degree from the University of Google (video campus), making the written word so passe.

    Add that to his serving up more leftover copypasta from Darin, when he could just link to the original comment, it really gets old. If only he could offer evidence of any of his claims, he might get a little respect.
    ———–
    Anonymous, Ed Yasbak… I had to think for a minute where I had heard that name before… Oh yeah, he is one of the nutters why claims that shaken baby syndrome is a mistaken diagnosis for vaccine injury. It is interesting that Yazbak describes himself by saying, “I am not anti-vaccine nor have I ever been.”

    Yazbak also claims to be “the grandfather of a child with autistic enterocolitis who has evidence of measles virus genomic RNA in the gut.” This makes him a true believer in Wakefield’s work, an unabashed academic fraud. Wakefield never bothered to mention to publishers that his study was performed as work for ambulance chasing lawyers, and it was only later revealed that his lab didn’t follow the most basic controls in performing their experiment. His unscientific bias prevents him from honestly examining the evidence.

    Is it possible that his concerns on where numbers came from and how they were treated have merit? Yes, and perhaps they suggest that further study should be performed to determine what the larger trend is. Yazbak suggests that Fombonne is a reactionary against Wakefield and did not become interested in ASD until Wakefield began his work, which is plainly false to anybody with access to the internet. Fombonne began studying and publishing on autism in 1996, with Wakefield’s work coming out in 98.

    Here are a couple links discussing the merits and deficiencies of criticism.

  87. #87 Laser Potato
    February 17, 2008

    “You’ll have to put it into youtube form for cooler to accept it. He got his degree from the University of Google (video campus), making the written word so passe.”
    Won’t work. I tried to get him to look at photos and videos of structural steel melting due to fire, and where did that get me?

  88. #88 HCN
    February 17, 2008

    I already know that cooler only believes in fairies and pixies. That is not an ad hominem, it is an insult that accurately describes his lack of thinking skills.

    All Anonny has done by using Yazbak as a reference, and telling us that children are better off getting measles than the vaccine is that he hates children and likes to see them suffer. Yazbak supported Yurko, a man who shook his girlfriend’s baby to death.

    So Anonny supports having everyone experience measles for real with the at least 1 in a 1000 chance of permanent damage for those that survive the 1 to 3 chance of permanent death. Then he supports letting child abusers get away with murdering children by shaking by excusing it as a “vaccine injury”.

    And, no, that is also not an ad hominem… it is also a bold faced insult which seems to describe his/hers attitude towards science and the general health of children.

    Until cooler and Anonny can show with real verifiable evidence that the vaccines are more dangerous than the actual diseases they will be branded as magical thinking haters of children and health in general.

  89. #89 Chris Noble
    February 17, 2008

    Every fallacy in the book, guilt by association, no knowledge of how to properly design a study, same old drivel from government can’t tell a lie cranks.

    Cooler, your attempt to parrot the language of critical analysis has as much substance as a three year old telling me I was naughty and that I had to go to my room.

    You haven’t even read the studies that you dismissed. Why do you pretend that you understand anything about the subject when your ignorance is apparent to everybody?

    I’ll remind you again. The people that respond to you are doing so because they find you to be an amusing troll rather than the intellectual giant that you imagine yourself to be. If you wish to continue to be the subject of ridicule then by all means continue. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.

  90. #90 Laser Potato
    February 17, 2008

    Too bad these kooks are too young to remember polio.

  91. #91 Anonymous
    February 17, 2008

    “Is it possible that his concerns on where numbers came from and how they were treated have merit”?

    It’s not only possible, it’s definite.

    This is your great expert. The guy you guys want to claim is the legit “scientist”? What’s wrong with this picture? The guy can’t even get this most basic piece of information correct. Sorry, but laughing my ass off here.

  92. #92 Anonymous
    February 17, 2008

    “All Anonny has done by using Yazbak as a reference, and telling us that children are better off getting measles than the vaccine is that he hates children and likes to see them suffer. Yazbak supported Yurko, a man who shook his girlfriend’s baby to death”.

    No, HCN (nice strawman though) … All I did was show what a lame “scientist” Fombonne is to have his name on such a bogus study. Gee, Yazbak is so stupid (right?) but looky here… this stupid man was able to blow Fombonne’s study to smithereens. So, where does that put Fombonne on the stupidity scale, HCN?
    Oh yes, and I’m sure that you know what actually happened to that little baby, right? Sure you do…

    By the way, HCN… let me use a quote that you used above to someone else. It should come in handy for you:

    “Your next post must inlude a link to a real scientific study, otherwise you are just a spamming loon”.

    You seem to be the spamming loon, HCN… I think that you can do better than spamming Fombonne nonsense. Can’t you?

    “Until cooler and Anonny can show with real verifiable evidence that the vaccines are more dangerous than the actual diseases they will be branded as magical thinking haters of children and health in general”.

    “Magical thinking haters of children”… Laughing my ass off. You are funny, HCN. Happy spamming.

  93. #93 cooler
    February 17, 2008

    Noble, coming from a computer repair salesman I’ll take that as a comlpliment. I love it, exactly as Dr. Brown predicted, reactions from cranks that one would expect if you told an ancient Egyptian that Osiris didn’t exist! Gives me a total , well you know what……………..

  94. #94 HCN
    February 17, 2008

    And the stupid child hating insanity just continues. As I recall I did not post just one study. You have not posted one good real critique of any of those studies.

    Still waiting for actual verifiable evidence from competent researchers that the vaccine is more dangerous than the actual disease it is for.

  95. #95 anonimouse
    February 18, 2008

    Person who took MY name in vain:

    Rather than trashing the Fombonne study, explain where it is wrong in such a way that would make the results of study invalid.

    And secondly, point us in the direction of one legitimate study that suggest thimerosal plays a role in autism.

    John Best:

    You and I both know that you think of your kid as a diseased lottery ticket. You don’t want your kid cured, you want the money so you can lock him up in an institution somewhere so you can spend your golden years at the track and the golf course.

  96. #96 Robster, FCD
    February 18, 2008

    Yazbak’s actions in support of child abuse do not detract from the one valid criticism that he had of Fombonne’s study. However, this criticism does not invalidate Fombonne’s paper, only casts doubt on it.

    Pointing out a possible error in one paper does not mean that your beliefs are correct.

    Show us peer reviewed research to support your position, not just attack a single paper.

    ———-

    Laser Potato, I did finally get Cooler to admit that fire can melt steel.

    ———-

    Cooler, Brown’s comments only apply if you have evidence to support your position. You don’t, and there is lots of evidence against you, so the point is moot. Most of us have already looked over what both sides have to offer, and found the mercury militia (their name for themselves, not mine) to be lacking.

  97. #97 cooler
    February 18, 2008

    You’ll have to put it into youtube form for cooler to accept it. He got his degree from the University of Google (video campus), making the written word so passe.

    Add that to his serving up more leftover copypasta from Darin, when he could just link to the original comment, it really gets old. If only he could offer evidence of any of his claims, he might get a little respect.

    Hell, google video beats what you guys have, no original studies proving hiv causes aids published in 1984, which is strange considering every Doctor was taught in medical school that HIV was the cause of AIDS from this year on, no properly designed study comparing 1000 people with no thimerosol intake to those with 1992 levels, no explanation how a plane can dissapear in shankesville and a terrorists passport and bandana can still survive, no evidence at all for your zany thoeries.

    Scientists that agree with me
    Dr. Andrew Maniotis phd Harvard trained pathologist
    Dr. Peter Duesberg California Scientist of the year, world renoun expert on retroviruses, NAS member.
    Shyh Ching Lo MD PHD military’s highest ranking pathologist and his team at the Armed Forces of Pathology. Considered a scientific genius in China, not second rate hack like Noble, hcn and Robster.
    Lynn Margulis phd NAS member Won Clintons medal for science in 1999
    Kary Mullis Nobel Prize winning inventor of the PCR
    Richard Strohan phd UCB professor emeritus of MCB
    Garth and Nancy Nicoloson PHD’s 2 award winning cancer researchers
    Gerald Pollack Award winning professor of bioengineering
    Walter Gilbert Nobel prize winner harvard MCB professor, (AIDS inc after much intimidation got him to write one sympathetic email, which doesnt nullify what he said in the past, there is still no animal model for HIV, which was his main critique)

    Scientists that agree with you guys
    John Moore: never won one award in his wasted career.
    Gaduseck: convicted of Child molestation
    Wainberg: creep who wants to abolish the 1st amendment
    Gallo: Pulitzer prize winner Crewdson wrote a whole book on what a fraud he was.

    I’m not just appealing to authority, these scientists also have superior arguments as well, which is why you cranks would never debate them.

  98. #98 cooler
    February 18, 2008

    Sorry, forgot to add SLC to that list of second rate hacks.

  99. #99 cooler
    February 18, 2008

    One notes that Cooler is once again utterly unable to describe any methodological flaws in the studies referenced and instead resorts to ad hominems.

    Nope, anonymous did a good job pointing out flaws in that study for me. I read the abstract to that study, it’s very nebulous and convoluted. Just compare 1000 people with no thimerosol exposure to a 1000 people with 1992 levels and look for differences in Autism. you guys too scared to conduct a real study? Seems like it.

  100. #100 Laser Potato
    February 18, 2008

    Well then, will I be seeing an NTSC copy of Castlevania Of The Night in my mailbox?
    Cooler: Doggerel #81. “[Evil Guy] Believed in [Theory]!”

  101. #101 Laser Potato
    February 18, 2008

    Er, Castlevania Symphony Of The Night.

  102. #102 Anonymous
    February 18, 2008

    “And the stupid child hating insanity just continues. As I recall I did not post just one study. You have not posted one good real critique of any of those studies”.

    Oh you really break my heart with the “child hating” comments. I’m going to go weep in my Cheerios. People who comment in regards to vaccinations being dangerous do not hate children (this is obvious to any honest person). In fact, it is the love of children and the desire for them not to become victims of the dangerous vaccination schedule that forces people to speak up against the insanity.

    When you use such crazy arguments (ie anti-vaccination loons hate children)… It is YOU who look crazy, not us.

    I also explained to you about your studies. I looked at the first one and it was beyond bogus. I did show you how that study was blown to pieces. I do not have the time to muddle through all of your nonsense. Especially as you simply seem to cut and paste study after study without (apparently) actually understanding if they are valid studies or not. I’m not your mommy … If you don’t have the time to edit your own postings — why should I?

  103. #103 Laser Potato
    February 18, 2008

    Shifting the burden of proof. Yawn.

  104. #104 Anonymous
    February 18, 2008

    “Shifting the burden of proof. Yawn”.

    The burden of proof is on you to prove safety.

    Good luck.

  105. #105 Anonymous
    February 18, 2008

    “Shifting the burden of proof. Yawn”.

    The burden of proof is on you to prove safety.

    Good luck.

  106. #106 ozzy
    February 18, 2008

    Cooler states “You cant find 2000 people somewhere in the world that would never have take vaccines anyways, hell what about 1000, and make a comparasin with vaccinated kids from the early 90′s!”

    Cooler, answer this question: Why aren’t new case autism incidence rates falling now that thimerosal vaccine exposure has dramatically decreased? I bet you won’t answer the question. “I love it! Classic!”

  107. #107 Robster, FCD
    February 18, 2008

    Ozzy, I have written my predictions of cooler’s response in an envelope and will post them once he replies to your question.

  108. #108 Hey Zeus is my homeboy
    February 18, 2008

    Interesting that two rabid antivaxxers, who will let neither science nor reason get in the way of the mountain of conspiracy-related “evidence” they’ve built up in their minds, will hold court in a 9-11 troofer thread. Don’t they realize they’re being traced?

    Orac could have completed the troofer trifecta and thrown in a link to the Wesley Snipes anti-tax debacle.

  109. #109 SLC
    February 18, 2008

    Re cooler

    “Sorry, forgot to add SLC to that list of second rate hacks”

    It’s a great honor to be the subject of a personal attack by a putz like Mr. cooler. Is there any denialist theory that he doesn’t subscribe to? For instance, what is Mr. coolers’ take on the various conspiracy theories on the Pearl Harbor attack?

  110. #110 Chris Noble
    February 18, 2008

    Orac could have completed the troofer trifecta and thrown in a link to the Wesley Snipes anti-tax debacle.

    cooler has already won at troofer bingo.

    1) Anti-vaccine kookery.
    2) HIV Denial
    3) 9/11 Conspiracy

    Bingo

  111. #111 cooler
    February 18, 2008

    Cooler, answer this question: Why aren’t new case autism incidence rates falling now that thimerosal vaccine exposure has dramatically decreased? I bet you won’t answer the question. “I love it! Classic!”

    Please provide the peer reviewed link for that claim, last time you made that claim, you lied and said that study existed when it didn’t!

    Anyways, just scroll up and listen to those scientists that agree with me and get shaken in awe of their credentials, while I will laugh at your idols Like John Moore who hasnt won one award in his career, thats not me saying it, when you click on his “awards and honors” page on his Cornell site the page turns up blank, I literally laughed out of my chair when I came across that. See for yourself!

    http://www.med.cornell.edu/research/jpmoore/awardsandhonors.html

  112. #112 cooler
    February 18, 2008

    SLC,
    You asked me my views on other conspiracy theories. I don’t buy into all that Pearl Harbor nonsense. But I find it very revealing that you people deny the FACT that there are 3 polar bears in the north pole who control the world. They call themselves the “Plupish Billuminati” They control the world through world surrogates and drink beers when they celebrate their machinations.

    For example,they drank beers and had an orgy after 9/11, for they were the ones that planned it. It made them horny, thats why they had an orgy. Do you deny the existence of the plupish billumati and their ability to use world surrogates? Are you a plupish billuminti denier? Do you deny the fact that they have orgies after their false flag attacks?

  113. #113 Robster, FCD
    February 18, 2008

    Awards don’t matter. Evidence does.

  114. #114 cooler
    February 18, 2008

    You said you had a peer reviewed scientific study that the autism rate has not dropped in children that have not recieved thimerosol vaccines in the US, waiting…………..

  115. #115 HCN
    February 18, 2008

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/02/still_more_evidence_that_its_all_about_t.php#comment-752498

    You really need to do something about that reading disability. Does believing in fairies and pixies keep you from realizing your questions were answered?

    So where is the evidence that the vaccines are more dangerous than the actual diseases?

  116. #116 HCN
    February 18, 2008

    By the way, when I came up with that list I was accused of spamming. I don’t know why, since I have only posted a fraction of the posts by the clueless cooler and the big brave anonymous.

    There is also Paul Shattuck’s study that Orac posted about here:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/04/evidence_against_an_autism_epi.php

  117. #117 cooler
    February 18, 2008

    Fail. Fail.

    Just compare 2000 people with no thimerosol exposure to those with 1992 levels. Not that hard, until that study comes out by scientists truly seeking an answer you guys have been punked by the plupish billuminati.

    Bronze Dogs allegation that “primitive societies” (euphamism for Africans etc) doctors are too dumb to recognize autism is laughable, you dont think a doctor in Africa can see behavior thats so out of the ordinary most average laypeople can even notice it?

  118. #118 Orac
    February 19, 2008

    cooler has already won at troofer bingo.

    1) Anti-vaccine kookery.
    2) HIV Denial
    3) 9/11 Conspiracy

    Bingo

    Indeed. I’m waiting for Holocaust denial to appear, because Holocaust denial often goes hand-in-hand with 9/11 conspiracy theories.

  119. #119 cooler
    February 19, 2008

    Holocaust denial! What a cheap shot. Can you please provide me with the reference that most people who beileve in 9/11 conspiracies believe in holocaust denial? Jeez millions of young people have seen films like Loose change and zeitgeist, they are the most viewed films in internet history, spreading like wild fire among normal educated college kids etc, and they don’t deny the holocaust. We just find it weird that planes dissapear while passports survive etc.

    I guess the google execs are holocaust deniers as well, since they provide the apparatus for 9/11 conspiracies! Most all of the most viewed films are conspiracy flicks. I LOVE IT!
    Gives me a……………..you know damn well what it gives me…………most watched films on google.

    http://video.google.com/videorankings?type=viewed&range=d2008-02-18&cr=usa

  120. #120 Chris Noble
    February 19, 2008

    Holocaust denial! What a cheap shot.

    It is an observation based on years of watching kooks.

    If a person believes in any one of the following:

    1) Evolution Denial
    2) HIV Denial
    3) Germ theory of disease Denial
    4) Holocaust Denial
    5) Vaccine conspiracy theories
    6) 9/11 conspiracy theories
    7) Global warming Denial

    then there is an extremely high probability that they subscribe to another.

    There is a basic psychological profile involved in all of these types of denial and conspiracy theories. The person has an overinflated perception of their own intelligence and believes that the majority of the rest of mankind and in particular any authority figures are stupid.

    You yourself are evidence for this. Maniotis also scores a trifectas with anti-vaccination kookery, HIV Denial and 9/11 conspiracy theories. Several Evolution Deniers are also HIV Deniers or AGW Deniers

  121. #121 Laser Potato
    February 19, 2008

    “most watched films on google”
    BIAS IS NOT SORCERY. SCIENCE IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. AMERICAN IDOL IS NOT A MODEL OF EPISTEMOLOGY. When will you get this through your head?!

  122. #122 SLC
    February 19, 2008

    Re Chris Nobel

    I wonder of Mr. cooler, like world class denier Fred Singer, is also a denier of the relationship between smoking and lung cancer and a denier of the relationship between CFCs and ozone depletion?

  123. #123 ozzy
    February 19, 2008

    Cooler

    http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/65/1/19

    I’ll educate you a little. This study looks at autism prevalence trends and shows that every decrease in thimerasol exposure fails to elicit a decrease in autism prevalence. Now if prevalence of a non-fatal disease is increasing you can infer that the incidence rate is increasing.

    By the way Cooler, how do you propose to do your retrospective study when the 1992 group would have been evaluated under completely different autism diagnostic criteria?

  124. #124 Orac
    February 19, 2008

    Holocaust denial! What a cheap shot. Can you please provide me with the reference that most people who beileve in 9/11 conspiracies believe in holocaust denial?

    I didn’t say “most” but “many.” It’s easy to see why. Please, cooler, don’t tell me you’ve never heard of many of the claims of 9/11 Troofers that Israel or the Mossad was somehow involved in 9/11. Don’t tell me you’ve never heard the toxic myth that 4,000 Jews working at the WTC were warned not to go to work that fateful morning. From the anti-Semitism that is behind some of these Troofer myths it’s only a short step to Holocaust denial, and it’s not surprising that some have taken that step, such as Eric D. Williams, for example. It also goes the other way. A few years back, a the topic of a major session at David Irving’s “Real History” conference was “Who was really behind the 9/11 attacks?” Holocaust deniers naturally gravitate to 9/11 conspiracy theories because it’s just one more way for them blame the Jews for something.

    Note that I did not call you a Holocaust denier, although your very belief in the 9/11 Troof movement would mean that I wouldn’t have been surprised if you did start spouting Holocaust denial. In fact, I’m glad that you reacted as you did. Assuming that you find Holocaust denial as repugnant as I do, though, I do wonder: Why are you blind to this virulent set of believes that permeates some parts of the 9/11 Troof movement?

  125. #125 cooler
    February 19, 2008

    I’m not blind to anything. Infact in one of the most viewed films in internet history “Loose Change” they talk about Larry Silverstein taking a 6 billion dollar insurance policy 6 weeks prior to the attacks on the World trade Center. He just happened to take a 99 year lease right before the attacks, just happened that he and his kids didnt show up to work that day, just happened that they were all types of weird contruction and power downs as Described by Scott Forbes, an IT worker in the film 9/11 mysteries. Also one of Larry Silversteins bodyguards told a New York member of We are change that he recieved a warning not to show up that day.

    Now this seems to me to be a lead that needs to be investigated, but because we live in a society where people like you think only Muslims can commit crimes and no other race, which is racist in itself.

    Race should play no part in determing where an investigation leads, any race should be investigated INCLUDING the suspicious behavior of Larry Silverstein. The fact that hes jewish does not mean he’s incapapable of foul play. And saying that certain races should be ruled out by default in a criminal investigation is racist in itself.

    Can you imagine if Larry Silverstein were Muslim? he’d be grilled by Law enforcment. As Far as the CIA and The Mossad, I dont trust these intelligence agencies at all, and I agree with JFK when he said the CIA should have been broken up into a million peices.

  126. #126 Orac
    February 19, 2008

    Now this seems to me to be a lead that needs to be investigated, but
    because we live in a society where people like you think only Muslims can
    commit crimes and no other race, which is racist in itself.

    Race should play no part in determing where an investigation leads, any
    race should be investigated INCLUDING the suspicious behavior of Larry
    Silverstein. The fact that hes jewish does not mean he’s incapapable of
    foul play. And saying that certain races should be ruled out by default in
    a criminal investigation is racist in itself.

    Ah, I knew I’d get the latent anti-Semitism out in the open from cooler with just a little tweak!

    By the way, in that little racist rant, I see that cooler is throwing up a strawman big enough to defoliate all the farms in Kansas and Nebraska. I never said that any race should be ruled out of a criminal investigation, that only Muslims can commit crimes, or that Jews should be exempt from any investigation. (Gee, what besides anti-Semitism could have led cooler to make such a claim of me?) What I said is that there is a strong strain of anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial in the 9/11 Troofer movement. cooler just revealed his latent anti-Semitism, thank you very much. At least he’s spared me the Holocaust denial.

  127. #127 cooler
    February 19, 2008

    Thats not anti semitism, thats called investigating all leads in a criminal investigation, you are the latent racist for thinking that when it comes to 9/11 only Muslims suspicious behavior should be investigated and not the suspicious behavior of Christians, Jews etc.

    (The CIA is made up of mostly Christians, if youve read any Chomsky you would realize they are one of the most corrupt institustions in the world, who have wreaked havok by staging events, overthrowing democratically elected leaders etc.)

    The Mossad, oh yeah you’re anti semitic if you critisize them? Weren’t they caught dressed up as Arabs trying to blow up Egyptian Theaters amongst many other hideous acts?………..the Lavon affair. Isn’t it racist to deny this cloak and dagger behavior of the CIA and the Mossad? It is, so you are the true denier/closet racist here.

    Learn about the Lavon Affair here, you are a closet racist for denying this.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

    And what evidence do you have that only Muslims should be investigated for 9/11? Is it the passport that flew out of the pockets of one of the hijackers after the exploding fireball and landed on the streets of Manhattan? Or is it the hijackers passport and bandana found in the empty ditch in Shankesville? Too bad the plane happened to virtually disintergrate.

  128. #128 Orac
    February 19, 2008

    Too easy, cooler. You just make it too easy.

    Keep the anti-Semitism and crackpot ideas coming. You’re one of the best examples I’ve ever seen about how credulity towards one form of pseudoscience or pseudohistory is often accompanied by credulity towards other forms.

  129. #129 cooler
    February 19, 2008

    You are engaging in a textbook attempt to smear someone as a racist, because youre too prejuduiced/racist to come to the conclusion that Christians and Jews are capable of crimes I mentioned above, not only Muslims. Too easy to see your crackpot racism that blames Muslims for everything and that Christians and Jews are incapable of commiting crimes.

    I just provided evidence that Jews and Christians have historically engaged in cloak and dagger operations, and you’re response of ignoring the evidence, and using further ad hominem is noted. And youre intense hatred towards Arabs to blame them for 9/11 without providing any evidence is also noted.

  130. #130 HCN
    February 19, 2008

    cooler, you only say those things because the fairy friends in your head told you to.

  131. #131 cooler
    February 19, 2008

    Anyone that critisizes the CIA/Mossad is an anti semitic Holocaust denier! What a joke!

  132. #132 SLC
    February 19, 2008

    Re cooler

    1. Gee, the Lavon affair of more then 50 years ago. Is that the best that Mr. cooler can do? How about the Liberty affair which at least involved the US?

    2. Mr. cooler still refuses to tell us his opinions of cigarettes/lung cancer and CFCs/ozone depletion. Come on now, Prof. Singer is a reputable physicist so his views should be considered, even though his colleagues at UVA consider him a crackpot.

  133. #133 Chris Noble
    February 19, 2008

    I wonder of Mr. cooler, like world class denier Fred Singer, is also a denier of the relationship between smoking and lung cancer and a denier of the relationship between CFCs and ozone depletion?

    It wouldn’t surprise me. Smoking/lung cancer Denialists seem to be fairly rare.

    Peter Duesberg was funded by the Council for Tobacco Research. This doesn’t necessarily make him a shill for big tobacco but it does raise serious questions about his ethics. He certainly isn’t as idealistically pure as his HIV Denialist followers would have you believe.

    Kary Mullis (a Nobel laureate) is a CFC/ozone depletion Denialist in addition to his AGW Denial and HIV Denial.

    I should also have added HIV conspiracy theories to the list of symptoms in the definition of Multiple Conspiracy Theory and Denial Syndrome

  134. #134 cooler
    February 19, 2008

    I suggest you listen to this speech from JFK about secret societies from the most watched film ever online “Zeitgeist.” JFK is clearly referring to cloak and dagger secret organizations like the CIA, Mossad, CFR etc. Oh no he’s a conspiracy whackjob holocaust denier! No he’s not, he just understands how dangerous these unconconstitutional private armies/societies are. Try reading the constitution to see if they authorized a secretive army to commit acts of war around the world without congressional/public oversight.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=497251819335380093

  135. #135 cooler
    February 19, 2008

    Not only are all those award winning scientists on my side that I mentioned above, now JFK is on my side as well! He was one of the most popular brilliant leaders in the history of the world. JFK is on my side. Hell yeah! Did you listen to the speech, talking about worldwide conspiracy of secret societies like the CIA etc. I love it! JFK is on my side! My side! Oh Yeah yeah!

  136. #136 SLC
    February 20, 2008

    Re cooler

    1. Mr. cooler forgot to include the Masons, the Illuminati, and the Bilderbergers in his list of conspirators. Not to forget Skull and Bones of course.

    2. Given Mr. coolers’ infatuation with President Kennedys’ views on the CIA and other intelligence organizations, does he think that it was the CIA who assassinated Kennedy?

  137. #137 Robster, FCD
    February 20, 2008

    Argumentum ad populum. Zeigeist may be popular online, but that doesn’t make it true, or even mean that it is convincing to viewers.

  138. #138 Tyler DiPietro
    February 20, 2008

    “What a cheap shot. Can you please provide me with the reference that most people who beileve in 9/11 conspiracies believe in holocaust denial?”

    Even if not “most” (a claim I don’t see made anywhere in this thread), “many” is very appropriate. This is especially true given that several Holocaust deniers are considered “leading lights” of the movement. Christopher Bollyn of the American Free Press is freely cited by many of the movement, despite A.) his long track record of sloppy research/lies and B.) his open Holocaust denial. Eric Williams and Eric Hufschmidt are two self-admitted Holocaust deniers and big figures in the movement (Hufschmidt is the author of the book and video that largely started the “controlled demolition” nonsense). Kevin Barrett is on the record as saying that that, among other things, the Holocaust is a “hideously destructive myth” as it is taught. You should consider getting your house in order before acusing us of “cheap shots”.

  139. #139 ozzy
    February 20, 2008

    Cooler,

    Still waiting to hear your answer for my question.

  140. #140 cooler
    February 21, 2008

    Zeitgiest and Loose Change are the most viewed online films in Isreal as well, if 9/11 conspiracies were so anti semitic I doubt hundereds of thousands of Isrealis would watch them.

    One can easily call the propaganda you guys rely on as racist as well, Like the New York Times and other MSM outlets that totally ignore the deaths of milllions of Iraqis, veitnamese in the Vietnam war and Palestinienes who live under an aparthied where israel chops up the West Bank into 200 peices with Jewish only roads and takes 85% of the water for jewish use only, source Ed Herman professor at University of Pennslyvania and Noam Chomsky.

    The Republicrats you people follow and their MSM sycophants all support this racist paridigm, so that makes you’re neo-con/neo-liberal movement far more racist for killing 3 million in Vietnam for no reason etc.

    Ozzy, what question, learn how to properly design a study. N=2000 no thimerosol exposure, m=2000 1992 levels of thimerosol, using the same criterion to measure both groups, whatever year criterion the scientists choose.

  141. #141 cooler
    February 21, 2008

    This is real racism, Clintons secretary of state saying in 1996 the death of 500,000 kids due to sanctions in Iraq was worth it, far worse than hate speech of any kind, and to think many Bloggers here are going to vote for the despicable genocidal murderer Hillary when she was a part of this administration. Makes them far worse than Kevin Barrett running his mouth, as bad as hate speech is, hate action is far worse, hate action that you people ignore and many help take place.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK_QshS2EW8

  142. #142 Robster, FCD
    February 21, 2008

    So tell us, cooler, is everyone living in Israel a Jew? (Close to a quarter of Israeli citizens are Israeli Arabs)

    Does everyone who watches Zeitgeist agree with the film? Is it possible that some viewers watch such films to see what the fuss is about, and are not ideological converts?

    Could these questions blunt your suggestion that 9/11 conspiracy mongering is a good old fassioned shabbos pastime?

    Could you provide us with a source for you “Jew only roads” or “Jew only water?” That sounds like it was cribbed from an racist website. Would Israeli citizen be a better term than “Jew?” Could the water rationing have anything to do with the farming system used in Israel?

    Anyway, you are deflecting the honest and true criticism that 9/11 truthism has a strong antisemetic componant to it with your rant of what the US and Israel have done wrong, as well as your complicity in spreading lies about vaccines, HIV and whatever latest video hoax is being pushed.

    The US has done wrong. Israel has done wrong. No nation is blameless.

    BTW, keeping Iraq contained was as much about keeping Hussein under our thumb as it was preventing Syria and Iran from making plays for Iraq’s oil wealth and Turkey from attacking Kurdish strongholds in Iraq. Syria is an annoyance to many middle east nations, not only Israel, and would only have been moreso with access to Iraq’s oil.

    The medications that were not allowed into Iraq leading to so many of the deaths of those children (probably including evil vaccines) were not allowed because of Hussein’s wishes, not ours. By causing pain for his own people, he hoped to garner sympathy on the world stage, as well as produce a false narrative as he lived in luxury. It worked, too.

  143. #143 Orac
    February 21, 2008

    Cooler just keeps digging himself in deeper and deeper, doesn’t he? His anti-Semitism has become obvious–just like that of a disturbingly large contingent of his 9/11 Trooofer buddies.

  144. #144 SLC
    February 21, 2008

    Re cooler

    1. Mr. cooler invokes Prof. Lynn Margulis as one of his paragons of truth. We should point out that Prof. Margulis has appeared on Holocaust deniers Kevin Barnetts’ radio show, both being 9/11 deniers (hat tip to Tyler DePietro). This despite Prof. Margulis’ Jewish ancestry.

    2. Gee, Mr. cooler invokes Noam Chomsky as another of his paragons of truth. Prof. Chomsky, defender of Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson and world class Israel basher. Why am I not surprised?

  145. #145 Cain
    February 21, 2008

    It’s also worth noting that Chomsky thinks the Troofers are morons.

  146. #146 ozzy
    February 21, 2008

    Cooler,

    Why don’t you enlighten me and tell me how to design the study since you are such an expert. Where would you find comparable populations of children with no thimerasol exposure and 1991 levels of thimerasol today? How do you define 1991 levels of thimerasol? You certainly can’t use historical records of autism in 1991 and compare them to today since the diagnostic criteria dramatically changed in 1994. I suppose you have the special ability to go back and rediagnose a random sample of 2000 children from 1991. And another thing, why don’t you enlighten me on your insistence on 1991? You keep making your dismissive statement about your theoretical thimerasol study being the conclusive study to end all discussion so I think it’s time you enlighten all of us. I’ll be awaiting your response.

  147. #147 cooler
    February 21, 2008

    All of your hatred and racism towards Muslims, Vietnamese and Palestiniens has become obvious, Including Orac’s, to the point you guys enjoy they fact that many of them have been burned alive, and starved to death for no reason.

    My source for the oppresive living conditions in the West Bank is Ed Hermans article “Israeli Apartheid and terrorism.” Professor Emeritus at U of Pennslyvania. I guess he’s racist too!

    http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/may94herman.htm

  148. #148 Orac
    February 21, 2008

    …to the point you guys enjoy they fact that many of them have been burned alive, and starved to death for no reason.

    Scratch defoliating Kansas and Nebraska with his straw men arguments. cooler has just defoliated the entire breadbasket of the U.S. with that one!

  149. #149 cooler
    February 21, 2008

    http://video.google.com/videorankings?type=viewed&range=d2008-02-21&cr=isr

    hahahahah, the third most viewed video in Isreal on google video is “Zeitgeist” a 9/11 conspiracy film! I doubt the video would be so popular in Isreal if the 9/11 “troof movement” were anti semitic. Isrealis see the same paradoxes that Americans do, planes dissapearing, passports surving. Your attempts to smear the 9/11 truth movement as anti semitic is just smoke and mirrors to distort the very strange occurances of that day.

  150. #150 Robster, FCD
    February 21, 2008

    Cooler, the problem is that nobody here is denying that Israel has done some pretty awful things, while you deny that al Qaeda had anything to do with 9/11, happily following a baseless conspiracy theory. BTW, Herman may oppose the actions of Israel, but is dismissive of evidence of genocidal actions of the Bosnain Serb army in Srebenica and elsewhere, Perhaps it matters to Edward who is killing Muslims, towing the Chomsky line that only allies of the US commit atrocities, and war crimes of enemies of the US are media contrivances. Herman and Chomsky have supported holocaust deniers in the past, and Chomsky’s position is that modern antisemitism does not exist except as a tool for intimidating enemies of Zionism.

    Chomsky’s being Jewish is not proof against flirting with antisemetism (claiming that denial of the existance of Nazi gas chambers is not antisemetic), Chomsky being notorious for tailoring his message (and sometimes being completely dishonest about the views of others) to any group that will listen to or praise him, making it hard to figure out what he really believes.

    As a proud Liberal, who will only vote for Hillary if she is the Democratic party’s nominee (I personally supported Edwards, now suppose I will vote for Obama), I find Chomsky to be an embarassment as often as an inspiration.

    Why is it, cooler, that you cannot admit that your closest allies are racists who prefer to believe that all crimes are the fault of the Jewish people, instead of the possiblity that all peoples are capable of atrocity?

    Also, is it possible that the Israeli viewers of Zeitgeist are not all Jewish, are viewing it to see what the buzz is about, and that not all are converts? Have you any intelectual honesty at all?

  151. #151 cooler
    February 21, 2008

    9/11 “conspiracies” appeal to any race Black, white, Jewish etc because the OCT is a big joke, can you realize that many young Jewish people are not dumb enough to buy the OCT, thats why its so popular in Israel?, why would Jewish people pass this film off to their friends and make it viral if it was an anti semitic baseless theory?

    Your hypothesis thats its just a bunch of loony arabs are making this film popular in Israel is a joke, jewish kids are no different than American kids, many young people around the world know that their governments are out of control.

    Chomsky has only said that holocaust deniers should have free speech, he’s never agreed with the message, do you have to lie about other people’s position?

    You are voting for Hillary, thats great, the First Clinton adminstration said the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi Children was “worth it”, maybe this next time you guys can up the ante and make it 1 million or 2 million kids, that would be nice, why do you support a women who was part of an administration that says the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi kids was “worth it,” why are your allies engaging in genocide?

  152. #152 cooler
    February 21, 2008

    uh oh, zeitgeist, the 9/11 new world order conspiracy film, has now become the most viewed video on google in Isreal, oh I love it! 9/11 truth is big in Isreal, you guys are now going to have to accuse thousands of Jewish people of being anti semitic too!

    And You guys have the dishonesty to shamelessly play the race card! Videos don’t go viral unless people like them and send them to thier freinds, and this process has to be repeated thousands of times. And Zeitgeist has become the most viewed online film ever, surpassing Loose Change, Maybe you and Orac should fly down to Isreal and call all those people watching the film there anti semitic loons! hahahahahahahahahaha. I’d love to see that!

    http://video.google.com/videorankings?type=viewed&range=d2008-02-21&cr=isr

  153. #153 cooler
    February 21, 2008

    Sharon Stone has just spoke out againt the 9/11 lie, oh I knew it, shes always been a nazi sypathizer, she’s the next Hitler! Micheal Moore as well has expressed his doubts about why they won’t release the tapes at the
    Pentagon, god damn nazi hitler worshipping denialist! Charlie Sheen and Wille Nelson too, theyre all NAZIS. They attend secret KKK meetings! They must be psychonaylized and be branded anti semites for questioning all of the paradoxes of that day!

    Oh Jeez Barabara Streisands husband plugged a 9/11 conspiracy film on the “View” he hates the Jews, even though he’s married to one!

  154. #154 Robster, FCD
    February 22, 2008

    Gods, have you even read Chomsky? Those are his words, his views. Sure, he excuses it by saying it was only a freedom of speech issue, but his close association with fringe left wing French antisemites, choosing them to publish his books instead of a large, legit French publishing house belie his real prejudices (and love of flattery). He and his intelectual progeny deny genocide if performed by an enemy of the US, while trumping up that of the allies of the US. Do a little reading on your heros for a change.

    I’ve seen Loose Change 2nd ed and found it to be comlete BS, so even though I boost their numbers by one, I don’t help their % supporters.

    Now prove to us that Zeitgeist is popular with Jewish people, and it would be nice to know what the competition is. It isn’t hard to be top dog in a weak field.

    And I’ll only vote for Hillary if my only other choice is a republican (please develop some reading comprehension). Let me guess, you’re a Paultard, right?

  155. #155 MsVik
    March 29, 2008

    What a sad, pathetic excuse for a surgeon/scientist. Maybe you should look for another line of work, one that doesnʻt require any compassion whatsoever.

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