Respectful Insolence

You can read parts I and II first, if you like.

Yet another reason Bill Maher is an idiot can be found in the video below, taken from Real Time With Bill Maher from the February 8 episode. I happened to catch it in reruns and was looking for a transcript or YouTube version. It’s truly appalling. This guy claims to be a rationalist and mocks religion for its irrationality, and here he is spouting off the more of his usual ignorant, idiotic, stupid ideas about medicine and, yes, downright woo, to the point where even his guests start to wonder what the heck is going on. They seem to back away from him slowly, much the way people back away from the ranting homeless guy who gets on the subway (metaphorically speaking, anyway):

Some “gems” from Bill Maher when the subject of the flu somehow came up:

“I would never get the flu on an airplane.” (To which an exasperated Bob Costas retorts brilliantly, “Oh, come on, Superman!” I think that’ll be my retort to Maher whenever I hear his germ theory denialism rants.)

“The model you have is wrong. You’re thinking that the problem is the mosquitos, not the swamp. If there’s no swamp, the mosquitos can’t take root.” (I’ve written about Maher’s denialism of the germ theory of disease before.)

“You all look at me as though I’m crazy.”

Well, why yes, Bill, they do, and I do. On this particular issue, you are crazy. Who’d have thought that Bob Costas would be the voice of rationality, as he tries to set Maher straight on a number of issues, such as when Maher rants on and on about possible drug side effects? It’s just another bit of data to show why Maher is not a real skeptic. Indeed, the older he gets, the more of a crank he appears to be becoming on medical issues.

Comments

  1. #1 Paul Hutch
    February 24, 2008

    I stopped watching Real Time two years ago after the third or fourth time I heard him spout his ridiculous conspiracy theory about food and medicine. Maher’s conspiracy theory is that food companies intentionally add ingredients that make US citizens sick so that Big Pharma and the AMA can make more money fixing the problems caused by the food additives. What a bozo he is, add in his undying support for PETA and I can only conclude that he is a man without rational thought processes.

    Wake up Bill, you’re a comedian, give me comedy not stupid conspiracy theories and proselytizing for wacko causes and I’ll start watching him again.

  2. #2 Alexandra
    February 24, 2008

    Remind me again, why is it anyone would be looking to a stand-up comedian with a BA in English to be an authority on anything (everything?) political and scientific in the first place? Because he’s on TV?

  3. #3 Steve
    February 24, 2008

    I think Bill has made more than a few salient political forays during the life of Realtime. I enjoy it quite a bit when Bill asks senators or candidates tough questions or calls them out on the air. I don’t agree with all of his politics, but I appreciate the fact that he’s whacking the sacred cows with big sticks. Does all of that become valueless because he believes in some fucknuttery or another? Is he running for Surgeon General?

    I find that if I watch long enough, *everyone* holds some view or another that I consider to be fucknuttery. If presented with the opportunity, I’ll tell ‘em I think that their view on subject x is fucknuttery and crackpottery, but it doesn’t mean I assume that every other thing they think is necessarily devoid of value.

  4. #4 alcoolworld
    February 24, 2008

    AAARGH!
    I have never really cared for Bill Maher. Somehow, I always knew in my lizard brain that he is a jackass.
    I believe that merely the exposure to this muck, though filtered by Orac, is enough that I need some Anti-Billiotics…

  5. #5 Robster, FCD
    February 24, 2008

    At least he gives the “truthers” a good verbal beating.

  6. #6 Skwee
    February 24, 2008

    Bill Maher? NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

  7. #7 Mark P
    February 24, 2008

    I saw that part of RT a week or so ago. His rants are not just the expression of a rational person’s pet peeve. They indicate an unhealthy obsession. And by unhealthy, I mean requiring medical intervention.

  8. #8 Uncle Dave
    February 24, 2008

    Hmmmm… I missed that episode. Yea, Maher seems to have a pretty bizarre understanding of medical science that even Bob Costas couldn’t seem to quite understand believe. Not that I am any knowledge fountain on this subject but holy cow the show did really take a turn as P.J. O’Rourke stated (I believe that was P.J. O’Rourke)!

    Again Maher is a Comedic contrarian not a skeptic.
    God, I hope he doesn’t have children?

  9. #9 outre
    February 25, 2008

    thought you’d enjoy this post Hollywood hypocrites or just morons?

    it’s a list of some hypocritical celebrity PETA supporters

  10. #10 Lilly de Lure
    February 25, 2008

    “The model you have is wrong. You’re thinking that the problem is the mosquitos, not the swamp. If there’s no swamp, the mosquitos can’t take root.”

    Mosquitos have roots? Wow, who knew – they sure get around quickly for plants! [/nitpick]

    Seriously, is it just me or does he seem to be falling for the old “miasma” hypothesis of disease here (the idea disease is caused by bad air emanating from swamps, bogs or anything that smelled bad)? Whilst I admit that was a very fashionable idea in its day, someone really ought to tell him that that day ended about 300 years ago.

  11. #11 Levi
    February 25, 2008

    I used to enjoy Maher but after I saw him on Larry King Live one night I find it hard to tolerate the man. Maher was discussing Mitt Romney and then moved to a rank on the Mormon faith which included a name dropping of the Gordon Hinckley. Larry King replied that he thought Hinckley was a nice guy. Maher asked why he thought that to which King replied that he had the guy on his show a few times. Maher essentially mocked King for saying someone was a nice guy with the only justification being having the person on their show a few times.

    I kid you not, immediately after this exchange they were discussing Mike Huckabee to which Bill Maher said Huckabee had a nice sense of humor and seemed like a nice guy. What was Maher’s evidence? Having Huckabee on the show a few times.

    Here’s the interview on Youtube: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4.

    The key parts are ~4-5min into part 1.

  12. #12 Junior
    February 25, 2008

    I think Jenny should dump Jim and hook up with Bill, they seem to be on the same level.

    Here is Bill on David Letterman. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pykeDp0EDgw Dave asks Bill what he does in his off time, and Bill says he’s interested in ‘health issues’, and encourages Dave to get off the pharmaceuticals. Nice, another celebrity spouting off about something he knows absolutely nothing about.

  13. #13 S. Severtson
    February 28, 2008

    WOW….you know I never cared for Bill but honestly you are blind if you cant see the links he is making here. He has a great understanding of medical science. Its based on the germ theory. If that theory is false or at least not all true then some real reconsiderations need to be made. You guys seriously dont see this? You would have to have lived in a cave to not understand what he is saying. Its not just him, medical (like that makes them non-biased rational truth driven beacons of health)professionals have come to these conclusions as well. This is no secret, if it is to you you may want to look back at your Guytons Medical Physiology book, or the work done by Hans Selye on Stress or any even a quick overview of Immunology like “How the imune system works”-Sompayrac PhD maybe then you can come to a logical conclusion on how the body works. Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr. MD who taught at Harvard and Dartmouth Med schools said “If all the medicine in the world were sunk into the sea it would be better for humanity and worse for the fish.” I think it time for you all to wake up and look around, but hey if not you just keep popping those pills and enjoy your sedated perspectives.

  14. #14 HCN
    February 28, 2008

    S. Severtson, that diatribe may have sounded brilliant when you typed it out in the wee hours of the morning… but really, truly, even though I am minutes from a deep sleep, it does not make sense.

    I actually curious about when you say “you just keep popping those pills”, can you please explain what those pills are? What pills do we take to avoid influenza? Or are you assuming that those who do not believe the same as you do (and first we have to figure out what you are saying in the first place) are on some kind of pill?

    Looking in my cupboard, all I see is some ibuprofen for the occasional muscle pull (and once upon a time menstrual cramps), and some generic allergy meds usually taken when certain pollen spewing trees are in bloom. Do these cause a sedated perspective? If so, can you please explain how you deduced that from what was written by Orac in the post above?

  15. #15 Orac
    February 28, 2008

    Methinks Severtson should be careful about drinking and commenting. His diatribe makes even less sense than one of Bill Maher’s rants about “toxins,” how Pasteur allegedly admitted as much on his deathbed (he didn’t), and how he doesn’t get the flu.

  16. #16 S. Severtson
    February 28, 2008

    I didnt think I would have to spell it out for you…I was talking about “…Maher straight on a number of issues, such as when Maher rants on and on about possible drug side effects?” and the “medical issues” comments mentioned above. I thought most of you based your opinions of Bill on the concepts he is talking about here rather than the catching the flu statement he made. Yes you are right I am not only talking about his flu comment. I am talking (as mentioned) about the concept of the germ theory and also the links he is making between health and disease (medical issues). I am sorry I thought maybe you faithful monitors of the truth saw Bill’s “big pharma rant” also and your opinons were made from that combination. If they were then the “popping pills” comment makes sense. Tell me how ibuprofen HELPS a muscle “pull”. It doesnt. It gates/blocks pain. That isnt help, that is sedation. And really you are going to try and find fault in what I posted because you think I was drinking or because my post was late at night (Im in a different time zone, it wasnt that late). All I asked is just go back and read your medical books and couple it with logic. What he is saying….is not that out there.

  17. #17 HCN
    February 28, 2008

    So, you say you were neither drunk nor sleepy. You are just naturally incomprehensible. (oh, and ibuprofen is an anti-inflammatory, look it up)

  18. #18 S. Severtson
    February 28, 2008

    This is ridiculous and fortunately my cue to respectfully back out. I was under the assumption that the opinions posted here although naturally biased would at least be substantiated and met with a degree or respect. Usually one can glean insight and information and have his/her opinion sharpened by the knowledge and logic of others but that’s not what this is, is it? It seems like everyone gets nodding in agreement in one direction and it turns into a large circle jerk and stroking of egos. I apologize for being a part of it.
    …Ibuprofen while yes is an NSAID like you mentioned also blocks something called cyclooxygenase (COX) which is responsible for the production of prostaglandin which is a chemical mediator of pain. Again that is not help that is sedation. Keep covering it up because (If I may steal a line) “….ignorance is bliss.”
    If you would like to actually discuss the topic at hand just post interest and we can exchange emails but this witty banter and avoidance of the issue is annoying

  19. #19 Uncle dave
    February 28, 2008

    Ibuprofen
    “Again that is not help that is sedation. Keep covering it up because (If I may steal a line) “….ignorance is bliss.”

    When I sprain my ankle and it hurts? Yea, I want to cover it up. Sedation is help, unless your a freakin masochist.

    Does general anesthetic just cover up your pain? Thank god it does.
    I remember sitting in the hallway of a hospital with my tibia (sp) snapped in two, my fibula shattered and my foot facing 90 degrees in the wrong direction. Thank god for morphine (35 years ago) or whatever they used but even with that, I was still in pain. Maybe I should have focused on happy thoughts instead.
    Everytime I think of that, I remember the documentaries of operations in the 1800′s prior to anesthetic where speed was the most important skill of a doctor. YIKES!

  20. #20 HCN
    February 28, 2008

    Subject: Bill Maher does not have any medical qualifications, and is not qualified to speak about influenza, swamp gas or vaccines.

    Diversion: Mr. or Ms. Severston accused those of us who disagreed with Mr. Maher of being pill poppers. Why would you expect any respect when you do something as stupid as that (along with your general incoherence)?

    Let me remind you of what you wrote “I think it time for you all to wake up and look around, but hey if not you just keep popping those pills and enjoy your sedated perspectives”. Is that in anyway respectful?

    I believe that was an accusation was made without any evidence. I mentioned the fact that the only pills I happen to use are ibuprofen or allergy medications when appropriate. I also mentioned one of the reasons for using ibuprofen was for menstrual cramps. I am now going to assume that it is a Mr. Severston who has no idea what menstrual cramps are… and does not know how the anti-inflammatory nature of that med works versus either aspirin or Tylenol.

    At least he decided to actually look it up (yes, I read the same wiki page, but unlike you, I have had cramps and found that ibuprofen is the only thing that works — though I did not bother to reveal that I am one of the 10% of the population who cannot tolerate narcotics).

    Now MR. Steverston I am glad you are now writing more coherently. Just stop making assumptions that those who do think Mr. Maher had any kind of medical knowledge. Hey! I’m just an engineer, and I know he is full of BS when it comes to anything to do with medicine or science.

    You only get respect when you earn it. You’ve started to be coherent, now start using logic and evidence.

  21. #21 S. Severtson
    February 29, 2008

    Thank goodness I have had the last few days off. I was disrespectful…I’m sorry. I guess I am very confusing to some so try hard to follow this it may seem disjointed.
    My point is not invalid. Let me get back to the subject. This is not about Bill Maher and what is viewed as his skewed opinion. This again, is about medical issues and the concept of health and disease. That is what I am commenting on and how his comments in this clip and his “big pharma rant” pertain to the sedated health perspective of this nation. When I said “your” sedated perspectives I am not picking on an individual, it is the generalized “your”, not YOU. I NEVER said ibuprofen (i.e. drugs-in a larger context of how it was meant) didn’t relieve symptoms and cause pain to go away, they just simply aren’t help. Drugs cannot help push the body towards homeostasis which is the balance your body to trying to achieve and maintain at all times (which is where health lives). Health is not the absence of symptoms. Uncle Dave when you took those pain killers your leg wasn’t suddenly healed, you just didn’t feel the pain. Drugs can get rid of symptoms but the lack of symptoms is not health. One of the first signs of cardiovascular problems is a heart attack…does that mean that your body was healthy up until the point where it decided to show the symptoms and have a heart attack? NO! To think that is a sedated perspective. People think we are “living longer” now so that means we are healthy. Well according to Eaton SB, Strassman Bl, Nesse RM, Neel JV, Ewald PW, Williams GC, Weder AB, Eaton SB 3rd, Lindeberg S, Konner MJ, Mysterud I, Cordain L. Evolutionary health promotion. Prev Med 2002; 34:109-118 “Health promotion’s promise is enormous, but its potential is, as yet, unmatched by accomplishment. Life expectancy increases track more closely with economic prosperity and sanitary engineering than with strictly medical advances.”
    Not to mention that now the last 13 years of your life is considered dysfunctional! (Cannot find my citation off hand) Even to say we are living longer now as an argument for the current medical model is absurd (not that you did but someone will rebuttal with that). As far as vaccines go:
    I recently spoke with a man who has his PhD in Virology and Immunology and designs vaccines. I asked if vaccines are for health or convenience. He said in his opinion they are given for convenience now. That may not be how it was intended but that’s how it is. If your body is exposed to it naturally it is a much better deal.
    I have friends who have NEVER had a shot and they are the healthiest people I know. The luckiest? No the healthiest. Now do they cough or sneeze or get a runny nose or maybe spend a day feeling a little nauseous once in a great while. Yes. That is called a healthy immune response to a pathogen.
    You are right Bill is not a medical professional but he doesn’t have to be to make these connections and see our failing model of what was supposed to be HEALTH care. It’s ACUTE sick care. That is why the hospitals are maxed out. The workers are over worked and we think we need more funding and more help. The medical model is designed to manage sickness acutely. It is horrible at chronic care or even prevention. Anytime you are waiting for the problem to occur before you step in, like today’s medicine, that is not prevention. Like Uncle Dave said when his tibia was shattered yes medicine did a bang up job for him, but that medicine didn’t “heal” him. It simply blocked the pain. It did nothing for his health. It was an acute care situation. Acute care is where the medical model of today shines. But acute care is not where the problem is. Chronic care is where the problem is. According to the CDC http://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2007/oct/07_0144a.htm America spends 1.7 trillion dollars (over half of the WORLDs budget) on medical care!! AND WE ARE HORRIBLY SICK. YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE AN MD TO SEE THE PROBLEM. I’m not an engineer like you are (we will pretend structural). If a building is falling down, I can tell you. I may not know the intricacies of how or why or the loads and stresses on the structure but at that point I don’t need to. Bill may not be an MD but at this point he doesn’t need to be to know better than hang his hat on a failing model. Real health needs certain things to exist…drugs and surgery (other than ACUTE care) is not them.

  22. #22 ozzy
    February 29, 2008

    “I recently spoke with a man who has his PhD in Virology and Immunology and designs vaccines…”

    Wow! Two PhDs what a masachist. I think anything more than one is a little overkill, ya think?

    “I asked if vaccines are for health or convenience. He said in his opinion they are given for convenience now. That may not be how it was intended but that’s how it is.”

    I guess preventing death is “for convenience” because you know it’s so hard bringing people back from the dead. The things we vaccinate against actually KILL people. For some vaccines the diseases they prevent result in moderate disease in some patients but in other patients they KILL them or result in debilitating chronic conditions (i.e. HBV and chronic liver disease). People DIE from VIRUSES!

    “I have friends who have NEVER had a shot and they are the healthiest people I know.”

    How about those kids in San Diego or the UK who “never had a shot” and are contracting measles what about their health now? By the way, I know plenty of people who have “had a shot” and are very healthy.

    “If your body is exposed to it naturally it is a much better deal.”

    Prove that one to me. Tell me how that one works. Let’s take Hepatitis B for an example. If you are exposed to HBV you have a good chance of becoming chronically infected without treatment. And if you are exposed in infancy, a major time of exposure, you are at an even greater risk of becoming chronically. Of those chronically infected a good number will go on to develop end-stage liver disease and possibly hepatocellular carcinoma. Now lets contrast that to a HBV vaccine. The vaccine consists of a SINGLE viral protein that has zero chance of resulting in infection. The vaccine has been shown to result in immunity in ~ 95% of individuals who are administered the vaccine. Severtson, you can look all of this up for yourself at the CDC website. So tell me how is natural exposure better than immunity from a vaccine?

  23. #23 Robster, FCD
    February 29, 2008

    Certain words mean very specific things. Sedation is not analgesia (painkilling). Sorry, pet peeve of mine.

    ————–

    S. Severtson, Nobody is denying that there are problems with modern medical care, or that prevention and public health programs have yet to be used as effectively as they could or should be. Maher, however, takes up extreme positions not backed by evidence (germ theory of disease denial), and would scrap it all in exchange for the kind of superstitions you would assume that a rationalist would avoid.

  24. #24 S. Severtson
    February 29, 2008

    This gets long sorry…I think it all needs to be here. Our banter will be ending soon…alas the salt mines call my name next week.
    Of all the pills America swallows, awareness is the toughest.
    For the THIRD time this is about concepts of medical issues not an isolated comment. For you to pick Hepatitis B as a topic is ridiculous. I’m not versed in that…you got me…well done. Its not about one vaccine. AGAIN this is concepts.
    -No he has one PhD-in both subjects, and that was his comment and opinion. He does design them so I gave it merit. (but nice work on trying to wreck his credibility with the masochist comment)
    -Like I said…the friends I have are very healthy. I can’t speak for the health of others. It is unfortunate. I have no doubt you know healthy people. Me too. I also have had shots and am asymptomatic as well. Health though, AGAIN, is a matter of perspective.
    It’s not about this but as far as vaccines go all I have is what I have read, heard and decided to believe through TRYING to remain objective and aware. I have cited some things here but cut it short because she then gets into her opinion very heavy. It is quite interesting but not needed here. A list of common ingredients in vaccines can be found here: http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html along with company contact information. Once you see the list you will see why I feel to inject those can be harmful…then by deduction the only other source of immunity is natural, although not ideal or convenient sometimes.
    You can also read (I’m just getting into it) “The coming plague” Laurie Garrett 1992 Pulitzer prize winner for her report on the Ebola virus. It’s not about vaccines it’s about the microbial world we live in.
    Rebecca Carley MD
    “The basic truth that served as the foundation for the mountain of lies known as vaccinations was the observation that mammals which recover from infection with microorganisms acquire natural immunity from further infections. Whenever cytotoxic T cells (the little Pac man cells which devour and neutralize viruses, bacteria, and cancer cells, thus conferring cellular immunity and are also responsible for allograft rejection) and B cells (antibody producing cells which confer humoral immunity by circulating in the body’s fluids or “humors”, primarily serum or lymph) are activated by various substances foreign to the body called antigens, some of the T and B cells become memory cells. Thus, the next time the individual meets up with that same antigen, the immune system can be quickly triggered to demolish it. This is the process known as natural immunity.
    This truth gave birth to a belief that if a foreign antigen was injected into an individual, that individual would then become immune to a future infection. This belief, (you see the lie in the middle), was given the name, “vaccinations”. What the promoters of vaccination failed to realize is that secretory IgA (an antibody found predominately in saliva and secretions of the gastrointestinal and respiratory tract mucosa) is the initial normal antibody response to all airborne and ingested pathogens. IgA helps protect against viral infection, agglutinate bacteria, neutralize microbial toxins, and decrease attachment of pathogens to mucosal surfaces. What this author has realized is that bypassing this mucosal aspect of the immune system by directly injecting organisms into the body leads to a corruption in the immune system itself whereby IgA is transmuted into IgE, and/or the B cells are hyperactivated to produce pathologic amounts of self-attacking antibody as well as suppression of cytotoxic T cells (as explained shortly). As a result, the pathogenic viruses or bacteria cannot be eliminated by the immune system and remain in the body, where they cause chronic disease and thus further grow and/or mutate as the individual is exposed to ever more antigens and toxins in the environment. This is especially true with pathogens grouped under the term “stealth adapted”. These are formed when vaccine viruses combine with viruses from tissues used to culture them, or when bacteria lose their cell walls when a person takes antibiotics and transform into “L forms”, leading to a lack of some critical antigens normally recognized by the cellular immune system. Another example is stealth adapted (mutated) cytomegaloviruses which arose from African green monkey (simian) kidney cells when they were used to culture polio virus for live polio virus vaccines. Thus, not only was the vaccinee inoculated with polio, but with the cytomegalovirus as well.
    The mechanism by which the immune system is corrupted can best be realized when you understand that the two poles of the immune system (the cellular and humoral mechanisms) have a reciprocal relationship in that when the activity of one pole is increased, the other must decrease. Thus, when one is stimulated, the other is inhibited. Since vaccines activate the B cells to secrete antibody, the cytotoxic (killer) T cells are subsequently suppressed. (In fact, progressive vaccinia (following vaccination with smallpox) occurs in the presence of high titers of circulating antibody to the virus1 combined with suppressed cytotoxic T cells, leading to spreading of lesions all over the body). This suppression of the cell mediated response is thus a key factor in the development of cancer and life threatening infections. In fact, the “prevention” of a disease via vaccination is, in reality, an inability to expel organisms due to the suppression of the cell-mediated response. Thus, rather than preventing disease, the disease is actually prevented from ever being resolved. The organisms continue circulating through the body, adapting to the hostile environment by transforming into other organisms depending on acidity, toxicity and other changes to the internal terrain of the body as demonstrated by the works of Professor Antoine Béchamp. He established this prior to the development of the “germ theory” of disease by Louis Pasteur. Pasteur’s “germ theory” was a plagiarist’s attempt to reshape the truth from Béchamp into his own “original” premise – the beLIEf that germs are out to “attack” us, thereby causing dis-ease. Thus, treatment of infection with antibiotics as well as “prevention” of disease with vaccines are both just corrupted attempts at cutting off the branches of dis-ease, when the root of the cause is a toxic internal environment combined with nutritional deficiency. However, since Pasteur’s germ theory was conducive to the profits of the burgeoning pharmaceutical cartels that only manage dis-ease, no mention of the work of Professor Béchamp is made in medical school curricula.
    To make matters worse than the suppression of cellular immunity which occurs when vaccines are injected, adjuvants (which are substances added to vaccines to enhance the antibody response) can actually lead to serious side effects themselves. Adjuvants include oil emulsions, mineral compounds (which may contain the toxic metal aluminum), bacterial products, liposomes (which allow delayed release of substances), and squalene. The side effects of adjuvants themselves include hyperactivity of B cells leading to pathologic2 levels of antibody production, as well as allergic reaction to the adjuvants themselves (as demonstrated in Gulf War I soldiers injected with vaccines containing the adjuvant squalene, to which antibodies were found in many soldiers). Note that the pathologically elevated hyperactivity of antibody production caused by adjuvants also results in a distraction from the other antigens that the immune system encounters “naturally”, which must be addressed to maintain health.
    In addition to the transmutation of IgA into IgE leading to allergic reactions described shortly, the overall hyperactivity of the humoral (antibody producing) pole of the immune system is, in this author’s opinion, the sole cause of all autoimmune diseases; where the auto-antibodies produced activate functioning T cells to then attack self; and both the activated B & T cells also produce cytokines (which further enhance inflammation and immunological involvement). The only thing which determines which autoimmune disease you develop is which tissues in your body are attacked by auto-antibodies3. PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS FINDING HAS NOW BEEN CONFIRMED BY DR. JEFFREY BROWNING SENIOR DIRECTOR, DEPARTMENT OF IMMUNOBIOLOGY, BIOGEN-IDEC, IN HIS SCIENTIFIC PAPER ENTITLED “B CELLS MOVE TO CENTRE STAGE: NOVEL OPPORTUNITIES FOR AUTOIMMUNE DISEASE TREATMENT” PUBLISHED IN NATURE REVIEWS DRUG DISCOVERY 5, 564-576 (JULY 2006); AVAILABLE ON THE INTERNET AT: http://www.nature.com/nrd/journal/v5/n7/full/nrd2085.html#a1

  25. #25 S. Severtson
    February 29, 2008

    Sorry Robert I didnt see your post. I know what he was saying, its just that my opinion came under heat when I commented…so I felt the need to back it up. To do that you have to go to the core of why I feel that way. Maybe along the way someone learns something. Me included. Thanks for playing everyone.

  26. #26 S. Severtson
    February 29, 2008

    Sorry Robster I missed your post. Yes I know what he is saying. My opinion (which is valid) came under heat so I have to back that up. To do that I have to go back to why I beleive those things. Maybe along the way someone learns something. Me included. Thanks for playing everyone.

  27. #27 ozzy
    February 29, 2008

    Rebecca Carley is a quack. Just the type of person I’d want advising me.

    http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/04/rebecca-carley-md-disgrace-to-medicine.html

    The germ theory of disease has been shown time and time again to be true and there is no scientific evidence that vaccinated people are less healthier than unvaccinated people.

  28. #28 Robster, FCD
    February 29, 2008

    Severston, You have a right to your opinion, but that does not make it valid or correct. As Ozzy mentioned, Rebbecca Carley is a crank. Your link to an antivax group listing ingredients of vaccines is typical bad information. Do you know what those ingredients are? The dose that has to be reached before they become toxic? A glass of OJ from concentrate, made with tapwater, is more chock full of potentially toxic materials than any vaccine (such as aluminum, formaldehyde, etc). For FSM’s sake, it mentions sucrose as an ingredient in one vaccine. Ooooooh. Scary. It also repeats the mercury is the second most toxic element BS.

  29. #29 S. Severtson
    February 29, 2008

    Yes, Rebecca Carley is out there. Becareful though, there may be more to that story than meets the unbiased quack watch/blog websites eye. Im sure if you contacted her awarenes would be abundant. Regardless her commentary on the immune system (from what I have read in my books) appears accurate. Ozzy, you are right. I am not aware of any research on whether vaccinated people are more asymptomatic than non vaccinated people. Health though is a matter of perspective…not just the abscence of symptoms or disease.
    The link given to the ingredients was given so that you have numbers to call and check if you would like. You are right sucrose is not scary. Does that negate any potential harmful ingredients? At what level do embryonic cells, or tissue cells or aborted fetus tissue cells become toxic? This is not about the instant gratificaton/ramification of the vaccine. What about the long term autoimmune effects? I think those need to be looked as well. Robster I would like to see your research for the tap water OJ comment. I am always looking for information.

  30. #30 Robster, FCD
    February 29, 2008

    Steverson, the link was meant to frighten parents into not vaccinating their children.

    At what level do embryonic cells, or tissue cells or aborted fetus tissue cells become toxic?

    More scare bullshit (the aborted/embryonic line is a common lie among Xian antivaxers). Vaccines have to be grown in something, and often require tissue culture. The vaccine is filtered so no cells could possibly end up in the final product. Many vaccines were originally developed in cell lines isolated from fetal/embryonic cells, but they aren’t grown in them.

    This is not about the instant gratificaton/ramification of the vaccine. What about the long term autoimmune effects? I think those need to be looked as well.

    And those long term effects are examined within the post-marketing phase. Carley, on the other hand, just makes stuff up.

    Orange juice naturally contains formic acid, formaldehyde, acetone, acetaldehyde. d-Limonene causes cancer in male rats (scary, right? If I were and antijuice type, I wouldn’t mention that there is no risk for humans). I could run through a massive list of chemicals with long names as the antivax site does, but why bother? Google it yourself. For info on what is in your local tapwater, check here.

    Carley’s views on the immune system do not rely on your approval, rather, they rely on supporting evidence. The evidence is against her.

  31. #31 HCN
    February 29, 2008

    Steverson said “I am not aware of any research on whether vaccinated people are more asymptomatic than non vaccinated people.”

    That is because you are reading the wrong websites, and the wrong research. Try http://www.pubmed.gov for one sourse of information. Stay away from websites that sell supplements, cures, zappers or warn about conspiracies.

    Come back when you can tell us which vaccine in the present pediatric schedule is more dangerous than the actual disease. You need to show your work, give us the title, author, date, and journal where you find the information that explains in detail why the MMR is more dangerous than mumps, measles and rubella (remember the MMR has been in use in the USA since 1971, and never contained thimerosal), or that the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus or pertussis, or that the Hib vaccine is more dangerous than Hib (that is a more recent vaccine, so I know of kids who have been disabled due to the actual disease, and met one woman whose first child died from it).

    That is how it works. You have the right to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. If you make a statement, be prepared to back it up. For example:
    http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/3/302

  32. #32 Orac
    February 29, 2008

    Yes, Rebecca Carley is out there. Becareful though, there may be more to that story than meets the unbiased quack watch/blog websites eye.

    No, there isn’t.

  33. #33 ACA
    March 5, 2008

    “…but unlike you, I have had cramps and found that ibuprofen is the only thing that works — though I did not bother to reveal that I am one of the 10% of the population who cannot tolerate narcotic).”

    HCN…If you truly are “…one of the 10% of the population who cannot tolerate narcotics.” then you would not be taking them currently. As for using the excuse of cramps…this is not justifiable. Do you have children? Or do you want children? It has been believed for years that the painful cramps women experience once a month are to prepare the body for the contractions during the birthing process. It is also believed that the reason some women “do not have cramps” is due to a higher tolerance of pain or they learn to use their mind to override the pain.

  34. #34 ALA
    March 5, 2008

    Can any of you explain to me why cancer rates, ADHD, autism, and may other diseases are at an all time high if not for all of the crap we are introducing into our childrens’ systems? Do you any of you know when a child’s immune system is fully developed?…it’s about 2 years old. Why then are we bombarding these babies’ immune system at birth and in the first few years of life? Is it necessary for every single infant to recieve a hepatitis vaccine? NO! Look at the ways you contract the disease(unsafe sex, dirty needles, blood transfusion). Also, was is really the vaccines that SAVED us all from these diseases? No…in the book ‘Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective?’ by Miller, Neil Z. there is the data showing that diseases (look in the book to see which ones) were on the decline way before vaccinations were ever introduced because of better sanitation. Also, Do you know…of the children/adults that contract certain diseases, how many of them were vaccinated against it and how many were not? Are they all unvaccinated individuals? (I really don’t know the numbers but I’d be willing to bet that most of them were vaccinated) ALso, can you show me the research and studies that have been done on the long-term affects of vaccinations? That I know of none have been done. Oh, and these diseases such as measles, mumps, chickenpox…etc are normal childhood diseases and if they are contracted at a younger age the child is less likely to suffer side effects, while if you get them at an older age they are more severe. These vaccinations don’t guarantee anything.

    The great flu vaccine protects against only a certain strain of the flu…realize that there are many many different strains out there…so that’s a great idea…inject yourself with all that crap and hope that the only strain of the virus you come in contact with is that one strain…Good luck with that.

    Tell my why out of 20 kids who come in contact with a virus only 10 of them get sick? According to the germ theory shouldn’t they all become sick? Perhaps I’m wrong on my understanding of the germ theory though.

    Severtson…I’m happy there is someone else out there who actually thinks for themselves instead of simply believing everything their MD tells them.It’s difficult when you can put an orange in front of some people and tell them it’s an orange because all of the facts indicate that it is, but because they were told before that it’s a banana…these people refuse to see the truth.(it’s a metaphor if anyone is confused) THey would have to change everything they believe in and actually be on the “quack’s” side.

    Nobody has proven to me that vaccinations are effective and safe. We need to ask ourselves do the benefits outweigh the risks? I’d have to say no at this point.

  35. #35 HCN
    March 5, 2008

    ACA, you are an idiot, and obviously not female. Ibuprofen is not a narcotic like Vicodin or Oxycontin. It is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory. It actually works on the inflammation, and not on the brain receptors like narcotics.

    See:
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a682132.html … “Oxycodone is in a class of medications called opiate (narcotic) analgesics. It works by changing the way the brain and nervous system respond to pain.”

    and:
    http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a682159.html … “Ibuprofen is in a class of medications called NSAIDs. It works by stopping the body’s production of a substance that causes pain, fever, and inflammation.”

    I have three children, and am post menopausal. I also have a very high tolerance to pain, but still got cramps (I gave birth with little or no medication). It was wonderful when ibuprofen became available.

    By the way, the last time I was prescribed a narcotic (I think it was oxycontin) was when I broke my ankle. It was when I was hobbling on crutches to the toilet to upchuck that I decided to look them up, and found out that 10% of humans have that kind of reaction. The bottle of prescribed painkillers got tossed. I managed with my broken ankle and chipped heel with ibuprofen just fine after that.

  36. #36 HCN
    March 5, 2008

    Hmmm… lurking about on the Medlineplus website (the first place one should look for medical information, not Google) I found that there is a clinical trial to prevent the commone side effect of narcotic medication:
    http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00541671?recr=open&cond=%22Narcotics%22&rank=1

    Now if only there were a clinical trial of a therapy to prevent unsolicited advice from the hopelessly clueless.

  37. #37 HCN
    March 6, 2008

    Oh my Ed… just took the time to slog through the anti-vax post ACA wrote while I was composing my response.

    Mr. ACA, if you wish to know about vaccine research please go to http://www.pubmed.gov and plug in the work “vaccine”. If you cannot access the full papers without paying online, you can most likely obtain them from your local library. That should give most of the answers you need.

    As far as the MMR, it is not given prior to a child’s first birthday. Please, when you do you research come back and tell us exactly which research shows that the MMR is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. Please, please, I’ve been asking for this information and no one will answer me! Why, why I ask you, why won’t they tell me?! If the MMR that was approved for use in the United States in 1971 and never had any thimerosal was so horrible, why won’t any one give me the real numbers to prove it to be so horrible?

    Why was Roald Dahl so keen on vaccinating for measles? Was he part of some conspiracy because he actually flew for the Royal Air Force in WWII, or was it for some other reason? http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/index.php?p=715

    What does sanitation have to do with measles and polio? What caused Japan to have huge jump in measles? Why did they have to close college campuses just because some students got measles?

    Why did increasing sanitation standards make polio worse? Oh, wait, there is this: http://www.scq.ubc.ca/polio.pdf

    Also, tell us if it is better for a baby to actually get pertussis instead of the DTaP vaccine. What are the risks for a poor innocent baby with the big ol’ nasty DTaP versus just a little whooping cough or diphtheria or tetanus. Surely you, with all your wisdom on how the infant immune system cannot tolerate vaccines should know how well they tolerate the actual diseases!

    Oh, and also tell us how well babies and toddlers do with Haemophilus influenzae type b versus the Hib vaccine. Give us your learned expertise on the dangers of preventing meningitis.

    Give us the real verifiable research with real numbers! You know, with all that sciencey stuff!

  38. #38 HCN
    March 6, 2008

    Oops, sorry… the last idiot I responded to was “ALA” not “ACA”. Sorry. The names were just too similar.

    ALA, could you please tell me what research shows that the MMR vaccine (which was approved for use in the USA in 1971 and has never contained thimerosal) is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella? Oh, and all the other stuff in my previous comment.

    Oh, and ALA… can you give us the numbers for “cancer rates, ADHD, autism, and may other diseases are at an all time high” ? Because, as I recall some cancer rates have actually decreased. Thinks like stomach cancer (which a family member died of), are not as prevalent as they used to be.

    Could you be more specific with your cancer numbers please? Also, when speaking of autism, please be sure to specify which DSM is used for the population proportion, since the definition changed over the years (remember that not so long ago the DSM included homosexuality as a mental disease).

  39. #39 HCN
    March 6, 2008

    PS: ACA, if you claim to be female, do not expect much sympathy.

    No matter, if you cannot tell the difference between a narcotic and an NSAID you are still an idiot, despite gender.

  40. #40 Lilly de Lure
    March 6, 2008

    Do you have children? Or do you want children? It has been believed for years that the painful cramps women experience once a month are to prepare the body for the contractions during the birthing process.

    By WHOM, precisely is it still believed now? The voices in your head? I’ve never heard any Doctor who has suggested any such thing, especially considering that menstrual cramps are caused by a completely different mechanism than the contractions experienced during childbirth (hell, the muscles that produce those contractions only form once pregnancy is already underway!).

    As for using the excuse of cramps…this is not justifiable.

    Speaking as someone who used to regularly pass out due to the pain of said menstrual cramps, which pretty much confined me to my bed for one week out of every month please partake of an extremely large dose of fuck you!

  41. #41 MartinM
    March 6, 2008

    Can any of you explain to me why cancer rates…are at an all time high

    Hmm…why on earth would an aging disease become more prevalent in an aging population? Can’t imagine.

  42. #42 ALA
    March 6, 2008

    HCN, polio incase you didn’t know it transferred through oral fecal contact…how then can you not see how increased sanitation caused the decrease in outbreaks? Oh, and if you look up the data polio cases actually increased once the vaccine was introduced. I will get you more of the information, but some of us are actually busy during the day doing “unsciency stuff”. Like I stated before…a child’s immune system is not fully developed until around the age of 2…thank you for helping to prove my point “As far as the MMR, it is not given prior to a child’s first birthday” Last time I checked that child us still under the age of 2! Refer back to Severtson’s explanation of how vaccines mess up the immune response. I shouldn’t have retype the entire explanation for you to understand it.

  43. #43 HCN
    March 6, 2008

    ALA, you are still an idiot.

    Polio is relatively mild if a very young child gets it, but with increased sanitation the age of contracting the disease was increased. When children got it after a certain age a certain percentage were permanently harmed, and they were often the ones who lived in the better neighborhoods. Here is a version that you might understand:
    http://www.scq.ubc.ca/polio.pdf

    Also, your bit about a child’s immune system not developed until age two does not make sense. How does that help them with Hib or pertussis? How about you come back with some real answers that actually use some science?

    Severtson is also an idiot (especially since he tried to use someone who lost her medical license due to mental illness as an authority), and like you has no clue on how the immune system works. Just like you have no clue how the human body that lacks the Y-chromosome works (and I sincerely doubt you have even been near a person with two X chromosomes, much less seen one naked).

    Some reading for you:
    http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9781592574988,00.html

  44. #44 ALA
    March 6, 2008

    GOOD COME BACKS!!! You must be freakin’ genius! News flash…I AM A FEMALE…thus my DNA contains two XX chromosomes and I am engaged to an individual who a X and a Y. WOW. you are smart!! Maybe if you did your research on this “quack” as you all so lovingly call her you would learn why she lost her license! You talk about me doing my research…take your own advice. Just because the person who does the research isn’t liked doesn’t mean the facts should be ignored. If you had done your reasearch you would know that there are more harmful substances in vaccines that just mercury, but that may take some actual reading on your part…not just the main stream info that the public is shown. If you don’t know how to find that information let me knowl…I’ll take time out of my schedule to assist you. Oh and as for your information on getting diseases at an older age, do your research on vaccinations because that’s what’s happening. A vaccination doesn’t “protect” you forever. (not that I actually believe it protects you at all) In relation to the immune sytem development at age two…that means we should be shoving all of this crap into an underdeveloped immune system…just like they say you shouldn’t be getting vaccinated if you are at all sick. UNDERSTAND NOW???

  45. #45 ozzy
    March 6, 2008

    ALA:
    You want to know why Carley’s license was revoked, here you go. Basically, she has a god complex:
    http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/carley1.html
    “The Respondent refers to herself as “Ghandi with breasts” as well as having been stripped to the bone and being able to save the world. The Respondent has a sense of knowing something that other people do not know. There is a messianic theme to her delusional system. . . . The Respondent has even compared herself to Joan of Arc. . .”
    “The Respondent has both delusions of persecution and delusions of grandiosity, i.e., the Respondent believes that she is being persecuted because she has a special ability to heal autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, cancer and other autoimmune disorders. . . ”
    “Dr. Labins stated that the Respondent believes that her husband was fulfilling the government’s role in performing anal penetration on their child and that this penetration sends a surge of energy to the child’s brain resulting in the compartmentalization of the brain. Dr. Labins also stated that the Respondent believes that the government is interested in pursuing all persons who are opposed to vaccinating children, which is part of a global government plot in collusion with the drug industry. Finally, Dr. Labins testified that the Respondent was unable to consider any other basis for what she alleged happened to her child. . .”
    “The Respondent’s delusions interfere with her practice of medicine because inherent to her delusions is a rigidity of thinking which involves the need to integrate all information into her preformed belief system. This need is intrinsically incompatible with the safe and effective practice of medicine because medicine involves being able to continuously reevaluate an initial diagnosis and consider differential diagnoses. The process of diagnosis requires the suspension of conclusions pending the accumulation of data. The Respondent believes that she already knows the answers before she begins to gather data. The Respondent believes that she is right, that she has special knowledge, and that her purpose on earth is to save others. . .”

    And I’m supposed to take Carley’s unreferenced speculation as to how the immune system works as credible? How many peer-reviewed papers has she authored…ZERO. Her view on how the immune system works is just wild speculation molded to fit her view. She fails to provide experimental evidence, let alone logical reasoning, as to her so-called “scientific” beliefs. Oh but I forgot, she already knows the outcome before the data is gathered.

  46. #46 HCN
    March 6, 2008

    ALA, despite gender you are still an idiot.

    Each disease is different, and some are more dangerous at younger ages, and some are not. Polio is more dangerous for older children. Pertussis is more dangerous for babies.

    The vaccines are also different. Pertussis, diphtheria and tetanus vaccines wear off, which is why adults still need to get vaccinated for tetanus and diphtheria (and now pertussis) every ten years (Tdap). But, after a person is done with the polio series they usually do not need to get boosters, which is pretty much true for the MMR.

    Also vaccines are not perfect. Some people may still get diseases even if they were vaccinated. Plus, some people due to allergies or medical conditions cannot get the vaccines. Their only protection from vaccine preventable diseases is from herd immunity.

    It seems you need to broaden your education as far as human anatomy, biology and microbiology. It was especially telling when you could not tell the difference between two completely different kinds of pain meds. I would suggest you actually look at the series of books I linked to… they actually have good introductions in those subjects. Go to a library and check out real books on medical subjects, stay away from the likes of Carley and Maher. Some suggested ones would include:
    http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9781592572588,00.html
    http://us.penguingroup.com/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9781592576340,00.html (just because you seem to have trouble with risk assessment)
    Plagues and Peoples by William H. McNeill
    Flu: The Story Of The Great Influenza Pandemic by Gina Kolata
    The Great Influenza: The story of the deadliest pandemic in history by John M. Barry
    The Ghost Map: The Story of London’s Most Terrifying Epidemic–and How It Changed Science, Cities, and the Modern World by Steven Johnson
    Polio: An American Story by David M. Oshinsky
    Vaccine: The Controversial Story of Medicine’s Greatest Lifesaver by Arthur Allen
    Vaccinated: One Man’s Quest to Defeat the World’s Deadliest Diseases by Paul A. Offit

  47. #47 Severtson
    March 6, 2008

    Sorry I have been away. Hopefully I wont be back again soon. Good to see you still battling it out HCN
    Here are some references. Not all of them but some. Not all of them support me. Some are posted simply for information in the article on how the immune system works. Its not that I am opposed neccesarily to vaccinations, the theory is great but the long term effects need to be looked at. You said look up vaccines on pubmed… yes you are right you will get articles that state you will have an immune response, and that they do/can save lives. Brilliant. The argurment is at what cost. What is the long term negative effect.

    J Immunol. 2007 Nov 1;179(9):5633-8.
    Perspectives on mucosal vaccines: is mucosal tolerance a barrier?
    Mestecky J, Russell MW, Elson CO.

    J Immunol. 2008 Feb 1;180(3):1326-37.
    Fast progression of recombinant human myelin/oligodendrocyte glycoprotein (MOG)-induced experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis in marmosets is associated with the activation of MOG34-56-specific cytotoxic T cells.
    Kap YS, Smith P, Jagessar SA, Remarque E, Blezer E, Strijkers GJ, Laman JD, Hintzen RQ, Bauer J, Brok HP, ‘t Hart BA.

    “However, they are not as effective in reducing cases of clinical influenza.” Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2001;(4):CD001269. Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults.Demicheli V, Rivetti D, Deeks JJ, Jefferson TO.

    “There is no single virus that causes the flu; there is no one flu vaccine that protects against all of them. .. It takes time to produce vaccines, so a new vaccine can’t be instantly produced when a new type of flu starts to cause problems… You may not even get protection against the intended virus. Why? First, because viruses change over time. The piece that was in the vaccine may not ‘look’ the same (chemically) as the real thing (months later, after all!). Second, the vaccine may not have given you enough stimulation to fight off the disease. ”
    Helmenstine MA Ph.D., “Why the Flu Vaccine Doesn’t Work”, About:Chemistry — 2007- 5-13

    Widespread vaccination with PRP-OMP Hib conjugate vaccine did not eliminate carriage in this population of Alaska Natives, and ongoing carriage contributed to disease resurgence. ”
    Karin Galil, et al, “Reemergence of Invasive Haemophilus influenzae Type b Disease in a Well-Vaccinated Population in Remote Alaska”, The Journal of Infectious Diseases, volume 179 (1999), pages 101-106 — 1999- 1- 1

    These are about autoimmune effects. Not vaccination. If the vaccination has these antigens from being grown on those types of cells the theory is in place to suggest an autoimmune related disorder because of vaccination.
    Classen JB, Classen DC Autoimmunity. 2002 Jul;35(4):247-53
    Parish IA, Heath WR Immunol Cell Biol. 2008 Feb;86(2):146-52. Epub 2008 Jan 29 “Too dangerous to ignore: self-tolerance and the control of ignorant autoreactive T cells”
    More is needed to read on this one…my questions lie in the autoimmune mechanism
    ??Nagayama Y. Thyroid. 2007 Oct;17(10):981-8. “Graves’ animal models of Graves’ hyperthyroidism.”

    J Neurosci Res. 1996 Aug 15;45(4):500-11. Links Vaccination with autoreactive T cell clones in multiple sclerosis: overview of immunological and clinical data. Stinissen P, Zhang J, Medaer R, Vandevyver C, Raus J

    Outbreak of measles from an unvaccinated boy…he traveled to Europe…uh yeah get the shot. It doesn’t exist in US so dont need the shot. If you are going to travel…get the shot. But don’t just give it to an infant whos BBB isn’t developed yet.
    MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2008 Feb 29;57(8):203-6. LinksOutbreak of measles–San Diego, California, January-February 2008.Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

    Antibiotics in Infancy Linked to Later Asthma
    By Michael Smith, MedPage Today Staff Writer
    Reviewed by Robert Jasmer, MD; Assistant Professor of Medicine, University of California, San Francisco
    March 14, 2006

  48. #48 HCN
    March 6, 2008

    Okay, so you are saying that boosting the immune system causes autoimmune disorders. Okay, so avoid those nostrums that say they will boost your immune system.

    Vaccines don’t really boost the immune system, they usually train your system to identify certain microbes, and prevent full infections. Kind of like getting intelligence on the enemies tactics. The biggest problem with the influenza vaccine is that the intell is not prefect each year (there are many flu viruses, and they mutate year to year).

    So where in that gobbly-goop does it say that the MMR is mroe dangerous than measles? Or that the DTaP is more dangerous than pertussis for infants?

    You did cite:
    Karin Galil, et al, “Reemergence of Invasive Haemophilus influenzae Type b Disease in a Well-Vaccinated Population in Remote Alaska”, The Journal of Infectious Diseases, volume 179 (1999), pages 101-106 — 1999- 1- 1

    This is called cherry picking. Because you failed to look at the updated research (which is listed to right of the PubMed abstract of paper you gave):
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/2/e421

    There are other factors being taken into consideration with the transmission of Hib. It states (and the link sends you to the entire paper):
    “CONCLUSIONS. H influenzae type b vaccination has resulted in a dramatic decrease in invasive H influenzae type b disease in Alaska; however, despite high rates of H influenzae type b vaccine coverage, H influenzae type b disease rates among rural Alaska Native children <5 years of age remain higher than the rates among non-Native Alaska and other US children. Equity in disease rates may not be achieved in indigenous populations with the current vaccines unless other environmental and household factors contributing to disease transmission are addressed.”

    So where does it say that the Hib vaccine is more dangerous than the disease? Where does it say that vaccines are supposed to work 100% of the time? Where does it say that the conditions in Alaska are the same as the Lower 48? It does there are issues affecting vaccine coverage and effectiveness when dealing with low income rural areas with limited medical availability, and that the Hib vaccine does not prevent non-b haemophilis influenza.

    Do yourself a favor, print out the list of books I listed, go to your library and read them. It might help you create better cut and paste comments, you might actually understand some of the stuff you are posting. I would also like to suggest:
    Snake Oil Science by R. Barker Bausell

  49. #49 ACA
    March 6, 2008

    HCN…..I am a female.

    I applaud you in your tossing of pain medication during the time of a broken ankle and a chipped heal!! Many people in this world would have kept them…used them…then probably refilled the prescription!

    As for the explanations of the differences between narcotics and NSAIDs…thank you…but I was never confused in the first place. I was just using the word narcotics generally. I apologize for the confusion…trust me…I understand the difference…however…both narcotics and NSAIDS cover up pain. I understand Ibuprofen is much “better” to take than a narcotic for menstrual cramps, however just because it is a better substitute does not mean it’s the answer. I.E. If pill A has…lets say 100 side effects to your body when taken and pill B has only 25…does that really make pill B better…NO! Yes…it is the lesser of the two evils…which I agreed with above…however it still does bad things to the body; it still alters the way the body was built to cope with…pain, fever and inflammation. (Fever is another topic…that I will not get into now…however it should not be controlled by any medicine except in specific circumstances when accompanied by noted symptoms)

    Also HCN Congratulations on having three children with little or no medication. Today it is a rare occurrence to find many women that understand that the body can handle labor perfectly fine on its own…if allowed to!

    I understand cramps can be extremely debilitating (HCN and Lilly de lure). I am not denying that medicine can help make the pain much more tolerable, however the pain is there for a reason. The body does not create pain just to irritate us. Pain is a sign of a problem. If you cover up the pain you are not fixing the problem. I.E. If there is an ugly piece of art in a room and you cover it with a blanket…you don’t see it anymore…but its still there! It is not enough to cover up the pain, you must determine the cause and then fix it!

    Lilly de lure…I am sorry that you experience such pain and agony…if I personally had to be bed-ridden for one week a month, I would be devastated and probably at some point take something to make it more bearable. However the menstrual cycle should not be that upsetting to your body, something is wrong and your body is trying to tell you that through pain.

    I met one of my best friends in graduate school. (I bring this up only because of the similarity with Lilly de lures situation) She had shared with me how when she was 13-15 years old she also had excruciating menstrual cycles. They too would cause her to be bed-ridden. I do know for a fact that she has a high tolerance for pain and does not enjoy “pill popping” (not a direct insult…referring to US population) to poison her body…however she too needed medicine to get through the pain. Although she was taking the medication which decreased her pain, she still knew there was a problem and covering it up with any medicine was not fixing the cause of the pain. She found out that the pain was due to pressure/irritation on a nerve exiting out of her spinal column which caused her menstrual cycle to function improperly and cause her so much pain. After going to a good chiropractor, she experienced relief of these severe symptoms and today does not suffer from any pain during her cycle.

    Also I have dealt with my own mother going through menopause and she too has experienced much relief of symptoms (mental and physical) from chiropractic. My mom used to have strong hot flashes, however since going to her chiropractor the hot flashes have dissipated to only a random few every once and a while, also the strength of the hot flashes has decreased tremendously.

    So my respectful response to a woman who has an unbearable week every month is to continue to research what may be wrong. I completely understand while researching the cause, medication may need to be taken; however it should not be taken every month for the rest of your menstrual cycles.

    Everyone should be able to agree that pain is a sign of a problem and that covering the pain will not fix the problem.

    Quoting from a recent documentary “US citizens will do more research on buying a radio, a car or a house, than they will into their own health care.” I am sorry but I believe America’s biggest problem is, people have blind faith and not willing to take the time nor the effort to research the truth. (anymore than pubmed or medline)

  50. #50 ALA
    March 6, 2008

    HCN and ozzy,
    the quack watch…good reference. Perhaps you should try some other reference areas besides those paid for by the medical profession/drug reps. Maybe you could get some unbiased information. Have you met Dr. Carley? I have! Think about where you are getting your information! They are going to write whatever makes it seem like she is crazy because it is in their best interest. She actually took a stand against them and they didn’t like it so they gave her the option to either lose her license or undergo electric shock therapy, and huge amounts of drugs. Seems to me like she made the correct choice! The research she has is not her own…it comes from other reputable sources including MD’s, PhD’s, etc. Are all of these people quacks too? Probably in your eyes because they are displaying information that “GOD FORBID” goes against what the medical world is pushing and has been pushing for years. Just because the medical world says something doesn’t make it the truth. I’m sure you’ll disagree with that too. As for my education, I have had more than enough human anatomy, biology, and microbiology. I think for myself and based on everything that I know about the human body I make my decisions. I ask questions like…WHY? Perhaps you should start to question what the medical world is telling you, and for a split second try to educate yourself on all sides. I’m not sure what your profession is (obviously not a busy one considering how much you’ve been blogging) but perhaps you should enroll in a couple of night courses yourself to expand your knowledge besides googling information and going to pubmed. WHAT IS YOUR BACKGROUND ANYWAY? Also, you may want to take a couple of english classes to learn to read because I didn’t write anything about two different drugs…that was ACA (I’m ALA). To back up ACA, she does know the difference between the two, but what YOU don’t seem to understand is that she was saying both drugs simply cover up the problem, but don’t fix anything. Obviously they work in two different ways.

    How can you possibly promote health with solutions that contain mercury, MSG, formaldyde, and aluminum? Are these safe to inject into the body? No. They have all been proven to be seriously detrimental to the human body. Why would you use something so unhealthy to “promote” health? It’s asinine!

    “In medical progress the means of relief by therapeutic measure or surgeries have far outstripped our knowledge of the cause of disease” Charles H. Mayo, MD

    “IF the germ theory of disease were correct, there would be no one living to believe it.” BJ Palmer, DC

    “External, material objects are never causes of disease merely agents waiting to cause specific symptoms in susceptible hosts.” Andrew Weil, MD

    “Chiropractors will never be as busy as they could be and should be…until people lose faith in the unscientific religion of modern medicine.” Robert. S. Mendelsohn, MD

    “If I could live my life over again I would devote it to proving that germs seek their natural habitat…diseased tissue…rather than being the cause of diseased tissue; example: mosquitoes seek the stagnant water, but do not cause the pool to become stagnant.” Rudolph Virchow, German Pathologist

    There is no proof that vaccinations are necessary, and there is no proof that they are safe in their short-term or long-term effects. However, it is known that the contents of vaccinations are harmful to the human body. I don’t know you can be anymore straight forward than that. That is why I would rather take my chances at actually contracting anyone of those diseases (very unlikely) and having lasting effects (even more unlikely) than putting something into my body knowing that it is going to be harmful to me. You have no idea what the contents of vaccinations are doing to people.

  51. #51 ALA
    March 6, 2008

    HCN and ozzy,
    the quack watch…good reference. Perhaps you should try some other reference areas besides those paid for by the medical profession/drug reps. Maybe you could get some unbiased information. Have you met Dr. Carley? I have! Think about where you are getting your information! They are going to write whatever makes it seem like she is crazy because it is in their best interest. She actually took a stand against them and they didn’t like it so they gave her the option to either lose her license or undergo electric shock therapy, and huge amounts of drugs. Seems to me like she made the correct choice! The research she has is not her own…it comes from other reputable sources including MD’s, PhD’s, etc. Are all of these people quacks too? Probably in your eyes because they are displaying information that “GOD FORBID” goes against what the medical world is pushing and has been pushing for years. Just because the medical world says something doesn’t make it the truth. I’m sure you’ll disagree with that too. As for my education, you can’t get much more education on the human anatomy, biology, and microbiology that what I’ve already received but nice one. I think for myself and based on everything that I know about the human body I make my decisions. I ask questions like…WHY? Perhaps you should start to question what the medical world is telling you, and for a split second try to educate yourself on all sides. I’m not sure what your profession is (obviously not a busy one considering how much you’ve been blogging) but perhaps you should enroll in a couple of night courses yourself to expand your knowledge besides googling information and going to pubmed. WHAT IS YOUR BACKGROUND? Also, you may want to take a couple of english classes to learn to read because I didn’t write anything about two different drugs…that was ACA (I’m ALA). To back up ACA, she does know the difference between the two, but what YOU don’t seem to understand is that she was saying both drugs simply cover up the problem, but don’t fix anything. Obviously they work in two different ways.

    How can you possibly promote health with solutions that contain mercury, MSG, formaldyde, and aluminum? Are these safe to inject into the body? No. They have all been proven to be seriously detrimental to the human body. Why would you use something so unhealthy to “promote” health? It’s asinine!

    “In medical progress the means of relief by therapeutic measure or surgeries have far outstripped our knowledge of the cause of disease” Charles H. Mayo, MD

    “IF the germ theory of disease were correct, there would be no one living to believe it.” BJ Palmer, DC

    “External, material objects are never causes of disease merely agents waiting to cause specific symptoms in susceptible hosts.” Andrew Weil, MD

    “Chiropractors will never be as busy as they could be and should be…until people lose faith in the unscientific religion of modern medicine.” Robert. S. Mendelsohn, MD

    “If I could live my life over again I would devote it to proving that germs seek their natural habitat…diseased tissue…rather than being the cause of diseased tissue; example: mosquitoes seek the stagnant water, but do not cause the pool to become stagnant.” Rudolph Virchow, German Pathologist

    There is no proof that vaccinations are necessary, and there is no proof that they are safe in their short-term or long-term effects. However, it is known that the contents of vaccinations are harmful to the human body. I don’t know you can be anymore straight forward than that. That is why I would rather take my chances at actually contracting anyone of those diseases (very unlikely) and having lasting effects (even more unlikely) than putting something into my body knowing that it is going to be harmful to me. You have no idea what the contents of vaccinations are doing to people.

  52. #52 HCN
    March 6, 2008

    ACA wrote: “Quoting from a recent documentary “US citizens will do more research on buying a radio, a car or a house, than they will into their own health care.” I am sorry but I believe America’s biggest problem is, people have blind faith and not willing to take the time nor the effort to research the truth. (anymore than pubmed or medline)”

    So I can assume you are now going to the library and checking out the books I listed. I have read all of them, plus others, like Quack!: Tales of Medical Fraud from the Museum of Questionable Medical Devices by Bob McCoy.

    You still also fail to understand what anti-inflammatory means.

    I also dealt with my hot flashes by wearing silk jammies and throwing off the covers. Never needed anything else (not quite sure how spine adjustments work with body temp control, that is a new one, and I suspect the explanation is in Dr. Bausell’s book). There are now pajamas made with wicking fabric to help keep a woman cool during menopause. You might want to give them to your mother as a gift. Because even if hers have subsided, they may come back. Been there, done that.

  53. #53 ALA
    March 6, 2008

    HCN and ozzy,
    the quack watch…good reference. Perhaps you should try some other reference areas besides those paid for by the medical profession/drug reps. Maybe you could get some unbiased information. Have you met Dr. Carley? I have! Think about where you are getting your information! They are going to write whatever makes it seem like she is crazy because it is in their best interest. She actually took a stand against them and they didn’t like it so they gave her the option to either lose her license or undergo electric shock therapy, and huge amounts of drugs. Seems to me like she made the correct choice! The research she has is not her own…it comes from other reputable sources including MD’s, PhD’s, etc. Are all of these people quacks too? Probably in your eyes because they are displaying information that “GOD FORBID” goes against what the medical world is pushing and has been pushing for years. Just because the medical world says something doesn’t make it the truth. I’m sure you’ll disagree with that too. As for my education, you can’t get much more education on the human anatomy, biology, and microbiology that what I’ve already received but nice one. I think for myself and based on everything that I know about the human body I make my decisions. I ask questions like…WHY? Perhaps you should start to question what the medical world is telling you, and for a split second try to educate yourself on all sides. I’m not sure what your profession is (obviously not a busy one considering how much you’ve been blogging) but perhaps you should enroll in a couple of night courses yourself to expand your knowledge besides googling information and going to pubmed. WHAT IS YOUR BACKGROUND? Also, you may want to take a couple of english classes to learn to read because I didn’t write anything about two different drugs…that was ACA (I’m ALA). To back up ACA, she does know the difference between the two, but what YOU don’t seem to understand is that she was saying both drugs simply cover up the problem, but don’t fix anything. Obviously they work in two different ways.

    How can you possibly promote health with solutions that contain mercury, MSG, formaldyde, and aluminum? Are these safe to inject into the body? No. They have all been proven to be seriously detrimental to the human body. Why would you use something so unhealthy to “promote” health? It’s asinine!

    “In medical progress the means of relief by therapeutic measure or surgeries have far outstripped our knowledge of the cause of disease” Charles H. Mayo, MD

    “IF the germ theory of disease were correct, there would be no one living to believe it.” BJ Palmer, DC

    “External, material objects are never causes of disease merely agents waiting to cause specific symptoms in susceptible hosts.” Andrew Weil, MD

    “Chiropractors will never be as busy as they could be and should be…until people lose faith in the unscientific religion of modern medicine.” Robert. S. Mendelsohn, MD

    “If I could live my life over again I would devote it to proving that germs seek their natural habitat…diseased tissue…rather than being the cause of diseased tissue; example: mosquitoes seek the stagnant water, but do not cause the pool to become stagnant.” Rudolph Virchow, German Pathologist

    There is no proof that vaccinations are necessary, and there is no proof that they are safe in their short-term or long-term effects. However, it is known that the contents of vaccinations are harmful to the human body. I don’t know you can be anymore straight forward than that. That is why I would rather take my chances at actually contracting anyone of those diseases (very unlikely) and having lasting effects (even more unlikely) than putting something into my body knowing that it is going to be harmful to me. You have no idea what the contents of vaccinations are doing to people.

  54. #54 ALA
    March 6, 2008

    HCN,
    It’s called the nervous system. It controls everything in your body. Can’t believe you don’t know that. That’s how spinal adjustments help with hot flashes in menopause.

  55. #55 ozzy
    March 7, 2008

    Oh ALA, you Carley shill, you. Those quotes were directly from the New York Medical Board license suspension report. After reading the full report it is obvious that Carley has no business treating patients and obviously needs some psychiatric treatment and nowhere does it state that electric shock therapy is required. But I’m sure the doctors examining her were all part of the Big Pharma conspiracy being directed by those black helicopters in the sky.

    When I hear “I think for myself and based on everything that I know about the human body I make my decisions.” I think you’ve read a book or two written by some quack with a book/agenda/product to sell and therefore you feel you are well informed. Well, let me teach you a little about scientific research. By the way, I have my doctorate and am currently doing immunology research so I do believe that I am qualified to comment on Carley’s so called “understanding.” First of all, the so called facts that Carley and others state are none other than weak hypotheses at best or wild speculation at worst. We can all hypothesize as to how the immune system works but these hypotheses need to be proven experimentally before they can be accepted. So one needs to cite specific experimental evidence as to the basis for their hypothesis not just other books that also spew out uncited speculation. Therefore, one is able to judge the plausibility of a proposed physiological mechanism. However, these quacks fail to do that and instead invoke logical fallacies and flawed reasoning in order to push their agendas/products/books and then claim that the Big Pharma conspiracy is out to get them. Or even better, they cherry pick quotes from 19th century pathologists.

  56. #56 Lilly de Lure
    March 7, 2008

    However, it is known that the contents of vaccinations are harmful to the human body.

    At what dosages, compared to those in vaccines? I ask because everything, including pure water, is toxic at high enough doses. Do you have any evidence that the levels of the relevant substances in vaccines are high enough to cause any effects at all?

    It’s called the nervous system. It controls everything in your body. That’s how spinal adjustments help with hot flashes in menopause.

    No it doesn’t – Google “endocrine system” for a start.

    Beside, the only neural response yanking the spine around is likely to provoke is the sending of an extremely strong signal to the pain centres of the brain when the vertebrae are damaged (either that or the cessation of any signals going to or from the area below that which you are yanking ever again as you break said vertebrae). Since I’m rather fond of my spine I will not be booking myself in to a chiropractor any time soon in a vain attempt to cure menstrual cramps or anything else thank you very much.

    I note moreover that you have also entirely failed to address my remarks about your hypothesis regarding menstrual cramps/labour contractions. Or is this yet another area of human physiology about which your knowledge appears somewhat, shall we say unique?

    Sorry, but given the level of knowledge about human anatomy, physiology and biochemistry you have displayed on this thread, you will forgive me if I will forego your rather patronising advice in favour of treatments that have evidence behind them to show they actually work.

  57. #57 -
    March 7, 2008

    I have been reading all of these blogs…very interesting…however unfortunately Lilly de lure…if you read some credible neurology texts you will learn that it is being taught in medical schools across the nation that the endocrine system, the immune system and the nervous system are all extremely inter-related and that interference to one area leads to extreme changes in the other two.

  58. #58 Lilly de Lure
    March 7, 2008

    endocrine system, the immune system and the nervous system are all extremely inter-related and that interference to one area leads to extreme changes in the other two.

    Which kind of negates the statement that “the nervous system controls everything in your body” doesn’t it if it can be affected by, rather than just affect, the other systems? I’d also query how the immune system affects the nervous system, other than when it fails to fight off an infection which presents neurological symptoms, but I’m guessing this isn’t quite what you are driving at.

    Also – there is no evidence whatsoever than manipulating the spine has an affect on anything other than the spine itself. This is good if you have something specifically wrong with your spine like a slipped disk, (assuming the manipulator actually knows what they are doing and don’t merely cause further damage, an unlikely and dangerous assumption to make in the case of chiropractors). However it is pointless and possibly dangerous considering the rough nature of some chiropractic treatments if you have anything else wrong with you (see link: http://skepdic.com/chiro.html).

    Thankfully it is rare for manipulations to be rough enough to damage the spine sufficiently to have any effect at all on the spinal cord itself. This is a good thing since it means that people emerging from chiropractors offices with serious problems (see link http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirostroke.html) are quite rare, however it does little to support claims that letting some pseudoscientific quack loose on my spine is going to have the slightest effect on my menstrual cramps.

  59. #59 ozzy
    March 7, 2008

    Don’t you understand that you must balance and align your immune system with your nervous system with your endocrine system. It is only when these are out of balance that disease occurs. Therefore you must be manipulated by a “qualified” contortionist in order return these “centers” of health to their proper order.

  60. #60 ALA
    March 7, 2008

    ozzy,
    you seem to only read certain words of these posts and once again look at who your sources are…how convenient “Those quotes were directly from the New York Medical Board license suspension report!” You say we need to prove these statements, but your well educated self along with everyone else pushing to inject our children with hazardous material has failed to prove that it is safe. You didn’t respond to to fact that vaccinations contain substances know to be horrible for the human body. How is that healthy? You didn’t respond because there is no good answer! It’s not healthy! God have mercy on YOUR children! You also mention getting scientific research…I’m pretty sure Quack watch is not a valid reference!

    Lilly de lure,
    you are possibly the biggest idiot i’ve come in contact with. you obviously know nothing about the nervous system and obviously even less about chiropractic. you base all of your knowledge on websites like quack watch and google. perhaps you should expand your horizons and venture away from google and actually pick up some books. If you knew anything about the spinal column and the nervous system you would know that when a segment of the vertebral column (there are 24 vertebrae in the normal human spine not including the sacrum, pelvis, and occiput) and when one of them becomes subluxated (being unable to move through it’s normal range of motion) it causes swelling and dysfunction. Therefore there are chemical substances released that cause nerve irritation which result in the signals from your brain to every cell in your body having the possibility of being disrupted and not functioning properly. Thus MENSTRUAL CRAMPS most certainly can be affected by a “spinal manipulation” as you say. I hope you suffer years of horrible mentrual cramps based on your ignorant comments!

  61. #61 Lilly de Lure
    March 7, 2008

    ALA:

    I am fully aware of the principles behind chiropractic as you describe them. But since they fly in the face of virtually everything we know about the human body and have no evidence to support their clinical effectiveness, I simply don’t believe that they are accurate.

    I would point out also that unsupported assertions from someone who believes that the mechanism that produces menstrual cramps is the same as that that produces contractions during labour are highly unlikely to change my mind.

    Oh and as for your very kind comments regarding my future health – I am happy to be able to inform you that they have been disappointed for several years, thanks in no small measure to the products of evil Big Pharma.

  62. #62 HCN
    March 7, 2008

    ALA, step away from the computer and get yourself to the library. You need to work on your understanding of medical issues.

  63. #63 JJA
    March 7, 2008

    Lilly de Lure, I am not sure what planet you live on, but there is an abundance of research out there showing that chiropractic does work. Chronic Spinal pain a randomized clinical trial comparing medication, acupuncture and spinal manipulation published in Spine July 15, 2003; 28(14): 1490-1502…… if you know anything about randomized clincal trials you will know they are the gold standard by which research is done. I can continue siting research showing that chiropractic care is the gold standard by which back pain is relieved. If you are not a fan of chiropractic that is fine you are allowed to have that opinion, but please do not go on a blogging that there is no way that chiropractic works. I have been reading alot of the material posted here and everyone says show me the research to prove this works. No one has talked about the fact that alot of medications are being prescribed for conditions that the medication is not approved for, or has any research to back up that it helps with the condition. All you need to do is ask and I can continue to post more information then you will be able to read in your lifetime showing that chiropractic works. I will be available to explain anything that doesn’t make sense to you. Thank you and have a healthy day.

  64. #64 JJA
    March 7, 2008

    Lilly de Lure, I am not sure what planet you live on, but there is an abundance of research out there showing that chiropractic does work. Chronic Spinal pain a randomized clinical trial comparing medication, acupuncture and spinal manipulation published in Spine July 15, 2003; 28(14): 1490-1502…… if you know anything about randomized clincal trials you will know they are the gold standard by which research is done. I can continue siting research showing that chiropractic care is the gold standard by which back pain is relieved. If you are not a fan of chiropractic that is fine you are allowed to have that opinion, but please do not go on a blogging that there is no way that chiropractic works. I have been reading alot of the material posted here and everyone says show me the research to prove this works. No one has talked about the fact that alot of medications are being prescribed for conditions that the medication is not approved for, or has any research to back up that it helps with the condition. All you need to do is ask and I can continue to post more information then you will be able to read in your lifetime showing that chiropractic works. I will be available to explain anything that doesn’t make sense to you. Thank you and have a healthy day.

  65. #65 JJA
    March 7, 2008

    Risk of Vertebrobasilar Stroke and Chiropractic Care: Spine Volume 33, number 4S,pp S176-S183 2008
    This is the most recent study done, you might find it educational.

  66. #66 ALA
    March 7, 2008

    Lilly de Lure,
    you just continue to pop those pills…congrats on finding something that hides the pain.

    “I would point out also that unsupported assertions from someone who believes that the mechanism that produces menstrual cramps is the same as that that produces contractions during labour are highly unlikely to change my mind.”

    I WOULD POINT OUT I AM NOT THE ONE WHO WROTE ABOUT THE MENSTRUAL CRAMPS…can you read????

    I have a feeling this is what happens when you’re reading your “research” you don’t read very carfully and get extremely confused.

    Before you start bashing something you know nothing about (chiropractic and the nervous system) you should read some of those articles JJA sent you. Perhaps you can avoid making an ass out of yourself again in the future.

    HCN,
    Thank you for your concern about my knowledge with medical issues, and I will continue to learn but not because I have a lack of knowledge on medical issues but because eventually people are going to wake up and realize that drugs and vaccinations are not the answer. It may take years, but it will happen. The medical world is not healthcare, it is sick care…this is extremely sad!

    I’m done wasting my time with irrational, ignorant, and brainwashed individuals. I truely hope nothing horrible happens to you or your loved ones because of the medical profession. Oh, did you know that the medical profession is now the number one cause of death in the US. Interesting, isn’t it?

  67. #67 ACA
    March 7, 2008

    Lilly de lure,

    I must have been misleading to you and I apologize for that; because you have seemingly tied my beliefs and knowledge into a jumbled mess. When i stated menstrual cramps have been believed to prepare a women for labor, I was never referring that the muscles and mechanism of labor is equivalent to cramps. If you read some books on midwifery and natural delivery they talk about God making menstrual cycles painful at times to help prepare a woman for labor pains. Which kind of makes since to me, because if i never experienced any pain previous to labor…labor pains would be even worse! I understand you may not take this into your own beliefs because even the women who write those books can not prove it, however I wanted to at least have the respect that I do know the difference and that there has obviously been a miscommunication on my part.

    I hope this clears the air and if not please post any further questions you may have.

    Thank you.

  68. #68 In8
    March 7, 2008

    “Beside, the only neural response yanking the spine around is likely to provoke is the sending of an extremely strong signal to the pain centres of the brain when the vertebrae are damaged”

    “Also – there is no evidence whatsoever than manipulating the spine has an affect on anything other than the spine itself.”

    Lilly de Lure,
    Do you have any evidence to support these statements?

  69. #69 -
    March 8, 2008

    Why do you people continue to ask for evidence when everyone knows you have never went and read the ones you have already been given?

  70. #70 In8
    March 8, 2008

    I don’t know why you feel I have continued to ask for evidence as that was the first comment I’ve posted. I’ve been a silent observer and was just curious to know if Lilly had any evidence to support her claims. I also believe if you take the time to scroll back up and view previous posts you will find that no evidence related SPECIFICALLY to these statements has been posted. Can we please limit trivial digressions and have a professional dicussion of the matter at hand. Thanks!

  71. #71 ADIO
    March 8, 2008

    It amazes me that we are ranked 13 in the world for overall healthcare but consume more medication than any other nation in the world. If it worked so well, shouldnt we have the longest life expectancy, lower infant mortality rates, decreased disease and sickness?

  72. #72 -
    March 8, 2008

    In8…the statement was meant towards Lilly de lure, not to you. Sorry for the confusion.

  73. #73 ----
    March 8, 2008

    Orac – surgeon/scientist. Hmmm,you obviosly have informed intelligent people on your site now…yet you do not make any comments?

  74. #74 In8
    March 9, 2008

    Oh how fast the nay sayers are silenced when they realize their statements have exposed their ignorance!

    The effects of a spinal adjustment are far reaching and beneficial to one’s health, I would suggest that you investigate the scientific research supporting the Chiropractic profession. You may just enlighten yourself. Who knows it may even cure verbal diarrhea.

  75. #75 HCN
    March 9, 2008

    Actually, we just find you really boring. Especially with all the sock puppets and the attempt to drag the off topic bit on and on.

    By the way, still waiting for the real evidence on which vaccines are more dangerous than the actual diseases.

  76. #76 ADIO
    March 9, 2008

    HCN, can you explain to me why the prevalance of autism has skyrocketed to 1 out of 150 to 200 births, many cases of which do not appear until after the vaccination have been given, primairly the MMR? Is that just a coincidence, or does it have to do with the increasing number of preservatives/additives to the injection so it can sit on a shelf longer in a doc’s office?

  77. #77 HCN
    March 10, 2008

    First explain where it is shown that MMR causes more ill effects than measles, mumps and rubella. Since it has been in use in the USA since 1971, where is the data that shows an increase in autism since then? Compare that to the rubella epidemic of the early 1960s and the resurgence of measles in the first part of the 1990s. Or to the damage caused by the small outbreak of mumps in the American Midwest a couple of years ago (4 people deafened, etc, etc):
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5520a4.htm

    In the mean time read:
    http://www.amazon.com/Unstrange-Minds-Remapping-World-Autism/dp/0465027644/

  78. #78 ADIO
    March 11, 2008

    here are a few….I hope that you enjoy. You keep ignoring the facts/trends and I pray to god that your children do not get autism because of your blind ignorance. You can google them yourself for the links.

    Hoshino et al (1982) report
    sharp autism increases in
    Fukushima-ken starting after
    1965 birth cohort===Niigata mercury episode,
    1965 “mercury exposure”

    Kielinen et al (2000) report
    sharp autism increases in
    Finland starting in 1982-89
    birth cohorts===Introduction of Hib vaccine,
    1986===Accelerated schedule starting
    in May 1990 “mercury exposure”

    Numerous studies (e.g.,
    Taylor, Kaye, Baird, Scott)
    show sharply higher autism
    rates starting after 1990 birth
    cohort “mercury exposure”

  79. #79 ADIO
    March 11, 2008

    Here you go…I hope you enjoy this!

    Mercury Exposures
    Niigata mercury episode,
    1965….Hoshino et al (1982) report
    sharp autism increases in
    Fukushima-ken starting after
    1965 birth cohort

    Introduction of Hib vaccine,
    1986…..Kielinen et al (2000) report
    sharp autism increases in
    Finland starting in 1982-89
    birth cohorts

    Accelerated schedule starting
    in May 1990…..Numerous studies (e.g.,
    Taylor, Kaye, Baird, Scott)
    show sharply higher autism
    rates starting after 1990 birth
    cohort

    I dont know how you can say that risking autism is worse than a child developing his/her own natural immunity.

  80. #80 HCN
    March 12, 2008

    The MMR never contained mercury because it does not have thimerosal. So what do those have to do with my question? I asked you about MMR (by the way the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine is different from the one used the USA since 1971 and in the UK since 1988).

    Also, why did you neglect to use the links or journal attributes (author, date, journal, title) that would make it easy to find the studies? Are you trying to hide something?

  81. #81 HCN
    March 12, 2008

    First two papers when the search terms “japan measles autism” are used in PubMed (two link limit):

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16865547? :
    J Autism Dev Disord. 2007 Feb;37(2):210-7.
    MMR-vaccine and regression in autism spectrum disorders: negative results presented from Japan.

    and
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15877763? :
    J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;46(6):572-9.
    No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study.Honda H, Shimizu

    Play again? Okay, I will cut and paste the question for you (without the link to the effect of mumps in the American Midwest):
    First explain where it is shown that MMR causes more ill effects than measles, mumps and rubella. Since it has been in use in the USA since 1971, where is the data that shows an increase in autism since then? Compare that to the rubella epidemic of the early 1960s and the resurgence of measles in the first part of the 1990s. Or to the damage caused by the small outbreak of mumps in the American Midwest a couple of years ago (4 people deafened, etc, etc)…

  82. #82 HCN
    March 12, 2008

    Sorry, late night… I meant to say that the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine used in JAPAN was much different than the one used in the USA since 1971 and in the UK since 1981.

    (it has to do with the Urabe strain of mumps versus the Jeryl Lynn strain)

  83. #83 HCN
    March 12, 2008

    Oh, no! Not another typo! The MMR vaccine in question was introduced in the UK in 1988.

    Say goodnight HCN.

    “Goodnight HCN”