Respectful Insolence

At this stage of the game, I almost feel sorry for David Kirby.

Think about it. He’s made his name and what little fame he has (which isn’t much outside of the tinhat crowd that thinks the guv’mint is intentionally poisoning their children with vaccines to make them all autistic) almost entirely on the basis of one book published over three years ago, Evidence of Harm: Mercury in Vaccines and the Autism Epidemic: A Medical Controversy. Of course, the question of whether mercury from the thimerosal preservative that used to be in vaccines, or vaccines themselves, cause autism has not been a medical controversy for some time now. In reality, it’s a “manufactroversy,” in which profit or, in this case, ideology lead to activists sowing confusion or pseudoscience when the science is not seriously in dispute. This leads to an appearance of a scientific controversy where no scientific controversy in fact exists. Whether vaccines cause autism is an excellent example, as is the claim that HIV does not cause AIDS or the effort of “intelligent design” creationists to poke nonexistent holes in the theory of evolution in their unending effort to infiltrate the public schools with religion-inspired pseudoscience.

In the three years since the publication of his book and the subsequent infamous article in Salon.com and Rolling Stone by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. (which, by the way, was published almost exactly three years ago today) that was so full of misinformation, misrepresentation, and pseudoscience that it astounded me as a new skeptical blogger, David Kirby became, at least before the “rise” of Jenny McCarthy, the chief spokesperson and apologist for the line that mercury somehow causes autism. Undaunted by the accumulation of evidence that put this idea (I will no longer dignify it by calling it a hypothesis) to rest and apparently realizing that his shifting of goalposts was becoming increasingly pathetic, in the last year or so, he’s pivoted effortlessly to the “Green Our Vaccines” strategy. Even so and despite the fact that he’s finally dropped the pretense of being a serious journalist and joined up with the merry band of tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists over at Age of Autism, Kirby still doesn’t appear to be entirely down with the new antivaccinationist regime yet, given that this bunch forgets pharmacology, chemistry, and even common sense in blaming “TOXINS!” in our vaccines for autism. Of course, Kirby did the same thing with his mercury-autism conspiracy-mongering; he was just better at burying the pseudoscience and logical fallacies under a pile of plausible-sounding verbiage. I suspect the reasons that Kirby isn’t quite down with the whole “toxins” thing are two-fold: First, doing so would be an admission that his book was a pile of fetid, stinking crap. Second, I think he’s actually intelligent enough to realize what a supremely, laughably stupid gambit the whole “toxins” bit is, especially when scientific ignoramouses like Kent Heckenlively go so far as to mention that there’s–gasp!–sucrose in vaccines (the horror, the horror!), and useful celebrity idiots like Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey parrot the lie that there’s antifreeze in vaccines.

All of this, of course, is my characteristically long-winded introduction to David Kirby’s latest bit of sophistry published on that house organ of antivaccinationism, The Huffington Post, and entitled CDC: Vaccine Study Design “Uninformative and Potentially Misleading.” There’s so much wrong there that I’m profoundly grateful to EpiWonk for taking the time to decontruct David Kirby’s usual blather in detail in a rejoinder called David Kirby: HuffPost Report on CDC’s Vaccine Safety Datalink Uninformative and Completely Misleading

I don’t plan on going into detail into the idiocy published by David Kirby that EpiWonk revealed because she did such a good job at cutting through Kirby’s arrogant ignorance. I do, however, want to add one little bit here. One thing I’ve noticed over the last three years or so that I’ve been in the trenches against antivaccinationists in the blogosphere is that antivaccinationists love to attack the Verstraeten study as though it’s the be-all and end-all of the evidence failing to find a link between mercury in vaccines and autism. The reason, of course, is because this is the time-dishonored technique of the crank: To attack older studies that have flaws as though they are the final word and ignore all the other evidence published subsequently that lacks the flaws of that one study. The Verstraeten study also has a number of features unrelated to the study that make it perfect for conspiracy-mongers. Indeed, Kirby parrots some of them, pointedly referring to the study’s lead author as “Dr. Thomas Verstraeten, an employee of vaccine maker GlaxoSmithKline,” because Verstraeten subsquently took a job with GSK. The other reason is because the study started out appearing to show a strong correlation between mercury in vaccines and autism but in subsequent analyses the effect decreased and ultimately disappeared in the final study: Of course, anyone who’s ever done studies knows that early “off the cuff” analyses often appear to demonstrate effects that don’t pan out under further more rigorous analyses. The other point to be considered is that the reason ecological analyses are not to be trusted is that they are very prone to false positives; i.e., finding correlations where none exist. That subsequent analyses that better controlled for this tendency reduced the original “effect” to noise should not be particularly surprising. None of this is usually evidence of any sort of coverup, but to the more conspiracy-minded who don’t understand science or epidemiology it can appear that way.

In any case, the Verstraeten study may have many flaws, but contrary to what Kirby says, it was not the be-all and end-all of the Institute of Medicine’s 2004 report that concluded that there was no good evidence for a correlation between mercury in vaccines in autism. A number of other studies were also cited. Another point to consider is this question: Why is Kirby harping on this particular study in 2008, five years after its final iteration hit the press? There have been multiple studies subsequent to this that did not rely on the VSD (for example, this Canadian study) and found no correlation between thimerosal or vaccines and autism and one very rigorous study that did use the VSD but used individual-level analyses rather than an ecological analysis to find no correlation between thimerosal or vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders other than autism. (The followup study on autism is still in progress and should be published in the next year or two.)

Perhaps “Dr.” Kirby would like to analyze the shortcomings of those studies and tell us why their conclusions of no association are unwarranted.

What’s most rich about Kirby’s post is that in his eagerness to look at a reasonable analysis of the pitfalls of ecological (or group-level) analysis of a database like the VSD, he’s thrown poor Mark & David Geier under the bus. Kirby harps on how prone to confounding ecological analyses are (for an explanation of what an ecological analysis is, go here), and in this EpiWonk agrees 100%. The problem is that Mark & David Geier’s latest crapfest of a paper that was recently published is–you guessed it!–an ecological analysis of the VSD database.

The irony is beautiful.

I’ll conclude with what is perhaps the best characterization of Kirby when it comes to epidemiology, courtesy of EpiWonk:

Fortunately, I taught epidemiologic design and methods for about 35 years, I had some students almost as clueless as David Kirby, but I’m a patient teacher. Another interesting fact is that there has only been one ecologic study published using the VSD, and I’ve written extensively about the study on this blog. Guess what? It wasn’t done by the CDC, who knew better long before the 2006 NIEHS Expert Panel. I’m speaking of the infamous Young-Geier Autism Study.

EpiWonk may be a patient teacher, but the student has to want to learn for a teacher to have any chance whatsoever of success. I have yet to see any evidence from Mr. Kirby that he wants to learn anything at all that might threaten his belief that it really, truly was the mercury after all.

Comments

  1. #1 MR.P
    June 21, 2008

    I had to share with the wonderful people here, exciting news that your guy, David Kirby, on today’s Huffington, has some startling news.
    It seems that the director of the CDC has released a report “in which she admits to a startling string of errors in the design and methods used in the CDC’s landmark 2003 study that found no link between mercury in vaccines and autism, ADHD, speech delay or tics.”
    Curiously though, even the study’s lead author — Dr. Thomas Verstraeten, an employee of vaccine maker GlaxoSmithKline — protested that the VSD study “found no evidence against an association, as a negative study would. In fact, he said that additional study was needed, which “is the conclusion to which a neutral study must come.”
    So; debate away. The evidence is not so clear cut either way, but having been to this site before I know what side of the debate the true believers here will be on. But, to be sure. no one really knows for sure.
    http://evidenceofharm.com/VaccineDataLinkReporttoCongressFinal.pdf
    The CDC admits the shortcomings of it’s previous study”
    ” The panel identified several areas of weakness that when taken together reduce the usefulness of the VSD project for conducting an ecological study design to address the potential association between exposure to thimerosal and the risk of AD/ASD.”
    In other words their study could not conclude that there was no link.
    Now clearly, from the article I am posting to, this guy Kirby is, to you, some kind of kook. That does not mean you can dismiss this article, which draws on the report and testimony of the head of the CDC.
    If you are going to criticize the article)is there any doubt you will?), do so on the basis of the facts/conclusions in the report and testimony, and not by attacking Kirby, which you clearly love to do, perhaps with reason. But here, killing the messenger won’t change the message.
    And before you turn on me, as messenger, I am not saying I think there is a link between autism and mercury in vaccines.
    I am saying WE DO NOT KNOW!

  2. #2 DLC
    June 21, 2008

    Went over and had a read at EpiWonk. good stuff, thanks for the pointer.
    I commented on it there, but I’ll add one here because it just occurred to me:
    Are the editors of Huffington Post so entirely clueless that they trust David Kirby unreservedly, or do they just not give a damn. Or are they also anti-vaxers ?

    Oh, and I noted the topic tag above: Brain and Behavior.
    Perhaps you could make one up for “clueless liars” instead?

  3. #3 DLC
    June 21, 2008

    If you are going to criticize the article)is there any doubt you will?), do so on the basis of the facts/conclusions in the report and testimony, and not by attacking Kirby, which you clearly love to do, perhaps with reason. But here, killing the messenger won’t change the message.
    And before you turn on me, as messenger, I am not saying I think there is a link between autism and mercury in vaccines.
    I am saying WE DO NOT KNOW!

    Posted by: MR.P

    Please read EpiWonk’s article. you’ll see why Kirby is getting bashed. With ample reason. He quote-mines, distorts the truth and outright lies. These are not the tactics of a journalist, but of a propagandist.

    Oh, and, yes, with a reasonable degree of certainty, we can indeed say “we know”.

  4. #4 Orac
    June 21, 2008

    I used the “Brain and Behavior” tag because the central claim Kirby seems to be defending is that vaccines cause autism, a neurodevelopmental disorder.

    As for Mr. P, please read EpiWonk before making such astoundingly incorrect statements such as the “evidence is not clear cut either way.”

  5. #5 MW
    June 21, 2008

    Suggestion:

    Don’t call it an “idea.” Ideas are usually the product of thinking and anybody who thinks no longer entertains this notion.

    I personally refer to it as either a “disproved hypothesis” or an “accusation,” depending on context. I can see why you wouldn’t want to use the h-word as it does have some dignity, which this thing doesn’t deserve. Perhaps “debunked theory?”

    M

  6. #6 MW
    June 21, 2008

    Oooh! Oooh! Mistah Kottah! I know!

    It’s a “myth.”

    Should’ve thought of that before. Myths are what unscientific people use to explain observable events they don’t understand. Works for me.

    Otherwise, “baseless accusation.” That sounds better than just “accusation.”

    M

  7. #7 Magpie
    June 21, 2008

    Orac writes: … antivaccinationists love to attack the Verstraeten study as though it’s the be-all and end-all of the evidence failing to find a link between mercury in vaccines and autism. The reason, of course, is because this is the time-dishonored technique of the crank: To attack older studies that have flaws as though they are the final word and ignore all the other evidence published subsequently that lacks the flaws of that one study.

    …and then MR.P comes along and does just that. I mean, we’ve just had spelled out why this is a lame, idiotic tactic that is essentially meaningless, and then one of the antivacs comes along, unzips his ignorance, and waggles it about for all to see. It’s pure comedy GOLD.

    THEY CANNOT BE TAUGHT.

  8. #8 Epi Wanker
    June 21, 2008

    I’d be interested in hearing what the Epi-Wanker has to say about the Danish epi studies… I hear The Wanker is an expert.

  9. #9 MR.P
    June 21, 2008

    Thanks for the tips. I did read the epiwonk article, as well as the PDF study cited in Kirby’s article.
    I also read this: Speaking about Dr Healy
    http://pagingdrgupta.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/13/vaccines-and-autism/
    What I wanted to blog about today, though, is her response to a question I asked about autism. She had written a column about the topic in U.S. News and World Report and told me she believes the link between vaccines and autism is “biologically plausible.” Of course, that spurred several more questions from me (click here to watch). Healy went on to say that many in the scientific world have been quick to dismiss the concerns of parents and have not conducted the necessary studies of causation to definitively rule out a vaccine/autism link. Healy’s comments have become a lightning rod in the medical community – with an infectious disease expert with the American Academy of Pediatrics calling CNN twice yesterday to express concern parents will misconstrue Healy’s comments and stop get their kids vaccinated – and that vaccines save lives.
    Wow. We had to take a moment at the summit, where I reminded the doctor that her comments seemed to fly in the face of most of her former colleagues at the NIH, and the CDC, FDA, and AAP for that matter. She is sticking to her guns, as is the neurologist father of Hannah Poling, who believes when the vaccine court awarded his daughter Hannah compensation, it was a milestone in this debate. Neither are anti-vaccine, and both are arguably legitimate scientists.
    All the evidence is NOT in, the safety has not been proven, and more study is needed. Are you, as scientists opposed to further study, or is it easier to dismiss the naysayers with ridicule?
    And as much as I would like to accept all of your ‘studies’ they may have other possible flaws, such as deliberate fraud.

    http://www.mondaq.com/article.asp?articleid=34644
    iv. Study Coordinator Accused Of False Statements

    The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the United States Attorney for Massachusetts charged Anne Butkovitz, a clinical study coordinator, with making false statements regarding follow-up safety calls to human subjects enrolled in a recent study. Press Release, U.S. Department of Justice, Clinical Study Coordinator for Pediatric Drug Charged with Fraud (May 25, 2005). According to the Information (the charging document), the researcher was responsible for contacting the parents of children taking an experimental vaccine to inquire about “serious adverse experiences” (SAEs). Information, United States v. Butkovitz, Case No. 05-CR-10128-DPW (D. Ma.) The government alleged that the coordinator never made these contacts but instead falsified records to indicate that contact had been made and that no SAEs had been reported. Id. The U.S. Attorney reported that if Ms. Butkovitz is convicted, she could be imprisoned for five years, serve three years of supervised release, and pay a $250,000 fine. Press Release, U.S. Department of Justice, May 25, 2005.
    Maybe this reference is 3 years old, but this may not be uncommon. Drug companies do their own research, by and large, on drugs/vaccines they seek approval for. They might have some motivation for shading the truth.
    Again, we do not really know.

  10. #10 Bronze Dog
    June 21, 2008

    Funny thing: I can’t recall an antivaxxer ever providing a critique for the Danish studies. They just say they’re discredited without ever saying why. Can’t answer criticism if none is provided.

  11. #11 daedalus2u
    June 21, 2008

    Bronze Dog, The Danish study is easily discredited by showing how irrelevant it is to the US population. What is the characteristic food of Denmark? The Danish. No doubt Danes have evolved resistance to the “toxins” in vaccines by virtue of eating their characteristic “toxin”-laden national diet for generations. Certainly they would have evolved almost complete resistance to the “toxin” sucrose.

  12. #12 Magpie
    June 21, 2008

    Thanks for the tips. I did read the epiwonk article, as well as the PDF study cited in Kirby’s article.

    …but then completely ignored the places where they contradict you. You think this makes you MORE convincing …how?

    All the evidence is NOT in, the safety has not been proven…

    “All the evidence” will never be in. You can always demand one more trial, about anything, forever. The safety HAS been proven to be overwhelmingly superior to the alternative, so until something comes along to show otherwise, vaccinations will continue to be the scientifically determined best practice. If you have some proof to the contrary, do share it. Until you do, there’s no reason to change the advice.

    Occasional adverse reactions are to be expected in absolutely any medical intervention. By your reasoning we should close every hospital on earth until “all the evidence is in” – which is, as you well know, NEVER.

    What do you expect, that if you have enough studies eventually one will come along that contradicts ALL THE OTHERS? A bit far fetched, don’t you think?

    And – important question I that expect you to ignore here – what’s your alternative? Stop vaccinating until “all the evidence is in”? Watch god knows how many children die until we’ve exhausted every possible idiot objection from people who “just want to be a bit more sure”?

    Screw that. And you.

    Are you, as scientists opposed to further study, or is it easier to dismiss the naysayers with ridicule?

    Go nuts, study away. But until the naysayers have something more than vague handwringing, and as long as they are proposing a course of action that leaves a trail of small coffin funerals for no good reason, then ridicule is the least they deserve.

  13. #13 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  14. #14 HCN
    June 21, 2008

    Mr. P has already lost any argument because he has been known to cite whale.to (Scopie’s Law):
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/06/vaccines_the_fallacy_of_the_perfect_solu.php#comment-927036

    He is going to have to work much harder to redeam himself. Especially since pertussis still kills more than a dozen babies each year in the USA. “In recent years, 15 to 21 infant deaths from pertussis are reported to CDC annually.”, from w w w .cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/pertussis/dis-faqs.htm

    Oh, by the way… just a reminder for MR.P… I am a parent of a child who needed to depend on herd immunity for pertussis due to a history of seizures. Unfortunately when he was an infant our county was having a pertussis epidemic. Real babies died. That was also the period when over 120 Americans died from measles (between 1987 and 1991). My son is now an adult, but he still has a very severe genetic heart condition. But you idiots don’t care about that… because I’ve been told “healthy individuals don’t die from measles/pertussis/tetanus/mumps/Hib/etc”… and not vaccinating is just an old fashioned form of eugenics.

    Oh, I am angry today because another child has died from measles in the UK.

  15. #15 MR.P
    June 21, 2008

    Mr. P has already lost any argument because he has been known to cite whale.to

    There you have it. Ignore what you cannot refute. Ridicule those you disagree with. And smugly go along your way.
    Talk about selective.
    I stated many times, I am not anti-vaccination, I’m anti-forced vaccination. I also stated above that I do not believe there is a causative relationship between vaccine mercury and autism.
    I also question the accuracy and validity of the tests done by companies seeking to get approval for their drug/vaccine.
    Then I cited this.
    http://www.mondaq.com/article.asp?articleid=34644
    iv. Study Coordinator Accused Of False Statements

    The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the United States Attorney for Massachusetts charged Anne Butkovitz, a clinical study coordinator, with making false statements regarding follow-up safety calls to human subjects enrolled in a recent study. Press Release, U.S. Department of Justice, Clinical Study Coordinator for Pediatric Drug Charged with Fraud (May 25, 2005). According to the Information (the charging document), the researcher was responsible for contacting the parents of children taking an experimental vaccine to inquire about “serious adverse experiences” (SAEs). Information, United States v. Butkovitz, Case No. 05-CR-10128-DPW (D. Ma.) The government alleged that the coordinator never made these contacts but instead falsified records to indicate that contact had been made and that no SAEs had been reported. Id. The U.S. Attorney reported that if Ms. Butkovitz is convicted, she could be imprisoned for five years, serve three years of supervised release, and pay a $250,000 fine. Press Release, U.S. Department of Justice, May 25, 2005.

    I think I see the difference between your “hooray for vaccines” people and me. I’m looking for the answers, whereas all you scientists already know.
    You keep adhering to what you already know and I’ll keep looking.
    So far this year alone, as of the first week of June, $65 million has been paid out to the vaccine-injured.

  16. #16 HCN
    June 21, 2008

    How about you try citing real studies that are actually on vaccines, idiot (especially when your cut and paste does not match anything from the link, nor the FDA website… and it just shows that the FDA does crack down of bad research, big deal!). Why would a study like Young and Geier get a free pass with obvious fraud from folks like you?

    Also, idiot, vaccines are not mandated. It is all too easy to get a pass on vaccines in all but two states in this country:
    http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/296/14/1757?

    How about you come back with some real data showing that the DTaP is more dangerous than pertussis, and that skipping the vaccine does not cause the more than dozen infant deaths from pertussis each year.

  17. #17 MR.P
    June 21, 2008

    He is going to have to work much harder to redeam himself. Especially since pertussis still kills more than a dozen babies each year in the USA. “In recent years, 15 to 21 infant deaths from pertussis are reported to CDC annually.”, from w w w .cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/pertussis/dis-faqs.htm
    I need no redemption. Be honest, I admitted from my first post I was posing questions I encountered while doing some research; not because they reinforced my beliefs, I was looking for the honest scientific refutation of the claims, and some people were genuinely helpful.
    Others, however, saw it as some kind of personal threat and affront, that someone looking for information would cite a source that YOUR LITTLE COVEN had long ago ‘debunked’.
    I had no previous experience with the rabid dogs on both sides of the debate, and was unprepared for the attacks that came.
    So I did some looking around, and I still have questions.
    Apparently the ‘Scientists’ who should have a somewhat open mind, have their minds already made up.
    Somehow, it is illogical to question the self-serving research of the drug companies, when such research clearly shows the benefits of the drug/vaccine being studied.
    I’m old enough to remember when the tobacco company research showed nicotine was not addictive, and smoking did not cause cancer.

    Sometimes I wonder what you all are smoking.
    My daughter was vaccinated by the time she entered public school, but not for everything, and not on the cdc’s schedule.
    This was based on consultation with our family physician.
    Had I chosen not to vaccinate her (or myself) at all, that’s our business, not the governments, and not yours.
    It is truly tragic to have a child suffer from any severe condition no matter what the cause, and I watched my daughter turn blue from an asthma attack, while in the hospital, (and her Mother and I having to implore the Dr. to get the RT to give her a breathing treatment, even though her next ‘scheduled’ treatment was an hour away). I understand the concerns of people who have compromised immune systems, or have valid Medical reasons not to be vaccinated (as in HCN’s case). I just think you should recognize that there are valid ethical/moral reasons not to vaccinate. Parents are fearful of making the wrong decision, and for many people, vaccinating is the wrong decision. There are risks either way.

  18. #18 Joseph
    June 21, 2008

    one very rigorous study that did use the VSD but used individual-level analyses rather than an ecological analysis to find no correlation between thimerosal or vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders other than autism.

    That study, Thompson et al. (2007), had the methodological strength that children were actually evaluated by independent consultants. Normally a VSD study would only look at outcomes recorded in the database, which are administrative outcomes, potentially confounded by trends in diagnoses. Obviously, Thompson et al. trumps Verstraeten et al. when it comes to all neurological outcomes except autism, and perhaps ADHD if I’m not mistaken.

  19. #19 MR.P
    June 21, 2008

    Save your indignation for topics much more deserving, like the current war, which kills far more than a dozen infants/year (like thousands and thousands).
    This vaccination debate is only of minimal interest to me, especially when compared with with the eroding of our constitution and economic security, so clearly devastating to so many people. Save your insults and derision for the people who truly threaten your health and well being. The Bush administration and Congressional accomplices from both parties. I fear the government more than vaccinations and terrorists combined, because they can take everything we love away.
    When people cannot win an argument , they often resort to insults. If your position on the issue really is so secure, you would have no need to call me an idiot. The mere brilliance of your reply would be enough.
    Besides, HCN, I already exposed you; your JOB is to post the pro-vaccine doctrine on all vaccine-related websites.
    I, however, have other concerns, and will tend to those.
    Get a life!

  20. #20 Dedj
    June 21, 2008

    Just because people call you an idiot, doesn’t mean it’s thier last resort. You should give some consideration to the possibility that you actually are an idiot. Certainly your unspoken assumptions that we are ignorant of the things you are aware of makes you look a bit foolish.

    “I’m looking for the answers, whereas all you scientists already know.”

    Yes ,funny that. The people who are relevantly qualified, who have been looking into the issue longer, are better informed and who have access to front-line sources seem to have come to a different conclusion to you.

    Perhaps you might like to think why that is.

  21. #21 D. C. Sessions
    June 21, 2008

    If on person calls you an ass, laugh.
    If two people call you an ass, consider their words carefully.
    If three wise people call you an ass, get fitted for a saddle.

  22. #22 HCN
    June 21, 2008

    Mr. P said “Besides, HCN, I already exposed you; your JOB is to post the pro-vaccine doctrine on all vaccine-related websites.”

    Oh, you are such an idiot. Prove that I get paid anything and you might have something. I have a life, and part of that life is to make sure my health impaired kid continues to live and get the educational and employment supports he needs. You, on the other hand, have already shown you are an idiot by your cut and pasting and actually linking to whale.to.

  23. #23 wk
    June 21, 2008

    Just wanted to thank Orac for the original links to EpiWonk (back a few weeks ago) — I’ve added it to my daily reading list — good stuff!

  24. #24 D. C. Sessions
    June 21, 2008

    Besides, HCN, I already exposed you; your JOB is to post the pro-vaccine doctrine on all vaccine-related websites.

    Oh, GOODY!

    We get to play, “You’re a paid pharmashill!” I love this game. Please, P, PLEASE accuse me too! The last time around it was so much fun!


    Spartacus

  25. #25 madder
    June 21, 2008

    Mr. P:

    I understand the concerns of people who have compromised immune systems, or have valid Medical reasons not to be vaccinated (as in HCN’s case).

    Shorter Mr. P: “But I choose to ignore them.”

    More Mr. P:

    I just think you should recognize that there are valid ethical/moral reasons not to vaccinate. Parents are fearful of making the wrong decision, and for many people, vaccinating is the wrong decision. There are risks either way.

    What on earth could these “valid ethical/moral reasons” be? There is absolutely zero scientific evidence of any quality that not-vaccinating is safer than vaccinating, barring a medical situation. People in situations like HCN’s absolutely depend on the herd immunity that the rest of us establish. How in the hell is it moral or ethical to deny this protection to them? How in the hell is it moral or ethical to put a kid at risk of a preventable disease?

    Please, Mr. P, point us to some information that could make vaccinating the “wrong decision.” And remember, as HCN has pointed out, we’re not talking about individuals for whom vaccinations are medically contraindicated.

  26. #26 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  27. #27 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  28. #28 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  29. #29 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  30. #30 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  31. #31 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  32. #32 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  33. #33 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  34. #34 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  35. #35 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  36. #36 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  37. #37 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  38. #38 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  39. #39 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  40. #40 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    June 21, 2008

    I just came here to say that Mr. P really doesn’t know.

  41. #41 Tsu Dho Nimh
    June 21, 2008

    Mr. P says, “Had I chosen not to vaccinate her (or myself) at all, that’s our business, not the governments, and not yours.”

    My right to drive 120mph on my 1,000 acre ranch ends when I reach a public road, because it endangers the lives of others.

    If you choose to endanger the safety of a group, the group will have no problem excluding you, or forcing you to stop the endangering behavior. If you want to dilute the herd immunity, without a bona fide medical reason, those who believe in herd immunity and don’t mind taking on a tiny risk in order to gain a major protective effect might decide that they don’t want you or your daughter near us and our children.

  42. #42 MR.P
    June 21, 2008

    Please, Mr. P, point us to some information that could make vaccinating the “wrong decision.” And remember, as HCN has pointed out, we’re not talking about individuals for whom vaccinations are medically contraindicated.

    Posted by: madder | June 21, 2008 7:09 PM
    Gladly
    Up through the first week in June 2008, so far, $65 million paid to the vaccine-injured.
    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statistics_report.htm

  43. #43 HCN
    June 21, 2008

    How many of those awards were for autism? How many total awards versus the total number of vaccines given?

    And yet from:
    http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/159/12/1136 … “Routine childhood immunization with the 7 vaccines was cost saving from the direct cost and societal perspectives, with net savings of $9.9 billion and $43.3 billion, respectively. Without routine vaccination, direct and societal costs of diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, H influenzae type b, poliomyelitis, measles, mumps, rubella, congenital rubella syndrome, hepatitis B, and varicella would be $12.3 billion and $46.6 billion, respectively. Direct and societal costs for the vaccination program were an estimated $2.3 billion and $2.8 billion, respectively. Direct and societal benefit-cost ratios for routine childhood vaccination were 5.3 and 16.5, respectively.”

    What are the relative risks between vaccinating and not vaccinating? Which is worse the DTaP or pertussis, tetanus or diptheria? Show the documentation other than the rare reaction.

  44. #44 MR.P
    June 21, 2008

    Oh, GOODY!

    We get to play, “You’re a paid pharmashill!” I love this game. Please, P, PLEASE accuse me too! The last time around it was so much fun!

    The term paid pharmashill implies compensation, an implication I was not making. Perhaps the term vocation or obsession would be more appropriate. The point is, HCN has posts going back years (quite a few) and there are many of these.
    I googled “HCN” and “vaccination”
    Bingo. There you are, on any site which allowed comments on vaccinations there you were.
    http://whitecoatunderground.com/2008/02/19/flu-woo-immuno-woo-and-vaccine-woo-all-in-one11/
    http://autism-news-beat.com/?p=49
    http://www.autismvox.com/doctor-who-falsified-vaccine-records-is-disciplined/
    http://www.groupsrv.com/science/forum-68.html
    http://mikestanton.wordpress.com/2007/11/21/vaccines-autism-and-actresses/
    http://photoninthedarkness.blogspot.com/2007/07/lets-do-study.html
    http://www.cyclingforums.com/archive/index.php/t-99593.html
    http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2008/05/12/vaccination-update/
    http://virginiahughes.com/2008/06/03/docs-fight-back-against-jenny/
    http://myreader.co.uk/msg/11884656.aspx

    Thats just off of the first two pages of my google search that yielded 10,400 hits
    I could have googled HCN and autism and come up with a few thousand more, I’m sure.

    I’m just doing a drive by. For HCN, and for all I know, a lot of you, it is an obsession. You pass up any neutral or valid points I make (you can tell which ones they are…the one’s you do not address.) And so many here are offended by the IDEA that someone can be independent-minded, you ignore the fact that my child and I are both fully vaccinated, and are no danger to you. I recognize the RIGHT of other people to make their own choices.
    And that person who mouthed off about forcing people like me (an admitted vaccinee who happens to believe differently) into being vaccinated, must be from a totalitarian country where such tactics are applauded. I live in the USA, where individual rights used to matter, but are slipping away, thanks to the herd mentality of mean-spirited folks like you. That would be every one who takes a cheap shot just because, despite my attempts to be open minded on the subject, from your side is a lot of hostility, anger, and hate. You represent the extreme right in this debate, and Jenny owns the extreme left. I have problems with both extremes.
    You want to censor ideas you do not agree with.
    You want people who disagree with you to STFU.
    What’s weird, the major place where we disagree, is on forced (mandated )vaccination. I’m vaccinated, I have to keep reminding you, and so is my daughter. So much anger against an independent (different from you) thought.
    What will you do when they mandate implanting RFID chips in your children? (Oh, that could never happen…heard of the Real ID act?)

    Okay, all of you ‘scientists’; how many of you rushed to get the anthrax vaccine when the Government told you to, just after the little scare we had?
    That plan was a smashing success, right? They could not get even the first responders to accept the vaccine, so that deflated their whole program.
    How quickly we forget.

  45. #45 madder
    June 21, 2008

    Mr. P again:

    Up through the first week in June 2008, so far, $65 million paid to the vaccine-injured.

    Wow. $65M. How much of that goes to the parents of the kids killed by these preventable diseases? I know someone experiencing recurring life-threatening bouts of epiglottitis due to HiB. How much of that money covers his medical expenses, time missed from work, and his family’s terror? How much is spent annually on treatment and associated costs for these preventable diseases?

  46. #46 Dedj
    June 21, 2008

    Bear in mind that $65 million is for a grand total of 87 cases. That’s right, 87.

    Mr.P , here’s a tip – sources are supposed to help your case, not make it look more niave.

  47. #47 Epi Wonk
    June 21, 2008

    Orac,
    Thanks for this post.

    Folks,
    Regarding the Anne Butkovitz case: Anti-vaccinationists LOVE scientific misconduct, as I point out in my discussion of the Anne Butkovitz case and a few other scientific misconduct cases in “Scientists behaving badly” at http://epiwonk.com/?p=77. They also completely misinterpret these cases, as I also discuss.

    Thanks again to all,
    Epi Wonk

  48. #48 madder
    June 21, 2008

    You know, I owe Mr. P a minor apology. I jumped all over the $65M thing without thinking about it. My wrath was a little misdirected.

    I should instead have pointed out that this quantity is in no way a moral nor ethical argument. We still lack Mr. P’s “moral/ethical” reasons to avoid vaccination.

    For, of course, there are none.

  49. #49 MR.P
    June 21, 2008

    Thanks, epiwonk for the thought-provoking article on scientists behaving badly, and I’m sure that these are isolated incidents and not representative. I quote from you:
    “Believe it or not, anti-vaccinationists have already begun to grab onto these stories. If you fail to see the connection, here’s a direct quote from a post referring to the above three articles: “For some people, to vaccinate or not is an issue of trust. When government/pharma sponsored research is so obviously self-serving and unreliable, it is no wonder people have been shunning vaccinations.” I still think this is a non sequitor, but some members of the ant-vaccination crowd love to collect stories of research fraud (even if completely unrelated to vaccine research).”

    Where do these people get these ideas? Why would a pharmaceutical firm want test results which favor it’s product? I just can’t wrap my head around such a concept. Conspiracy nuts, such as the one you quoted, have no business expressing such dangerous opinions, and they should be stopped.

    http://www.medicalveritas.com/manGirard.pdf

    Principal Findings: Applied to the issue of demyelinating disorders after vaccination against hepatitis B, this conceptual framework makes it
    possible to show that: (1) the authors of most studies challenging the reality of a neurological risk have vested interests (which are not always of
    financial nature); (2) the criticism directed by national (French Agency, U.S. CDC) and international health agencies (WHO) towards investigations
    supporting a neurological risk after hepatitis B vaccination ranges from nonsense to documented forgery; and (3) even in the greatest journals, the
    process of publication has been tainted by the self-serving influence of the drug makers.
    Conclusions/Significance: (1) The level of evidence demonstrating a significant risk of central demyelinating disorder after hepatitis B vaccine
    is far higher than that normally accepted to justify strong regulatory measures as exemplified by the historical precedents of thalidomide, aminorex,
    diethylstilbestrol, practolol, dexfenfluramine, tolcapone, and cerivastatin. (2) The dynamics of biased controversies over drug safety is based upon a
    worrying perversion of two key-points of scientific legitimacy: the publication process on the one hand, and the game of refutation on the other.
    However, the secular rules of Hippocratic prudence still offer valuable guidance to prescribers that, in practice, can be used to manage today’s
    money-driven controversies that focus on promoting the “benefits” of drugs while downplaying or ignoring the often all-to-real “risks” associated
    with these same drugs.

    Charlatans!

  50. #50 MR.P
    June 21, 2008

    should instead have pointed out that this quantity is in no way a moral nor ethical argument. We still lack Mr. P’s “moral/ethical” reasons to avoid vaccination.

    My religion forbids suicide :>)

  51. #51 MR.P
    June 21, 2008

    http://www.medicalveritas.com/manJune.pdf
    Opening Statement of Chairman Dan Burton
    Today we’re going to continue our series of hearings on
    vaccine policy. For the last few months, we’ve been focusing
    on two important advisory committees. The Food and Drug
    Administration and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
    rely on these advisory committees to help them make vaccine
    policies that affect every child in America. We’ve looked
    very carefully at conflicts of interest. We’ve taken a good, hard
    look at whether the pharmaceutical industry has too much influence
    over these committees.
    From the evidence we’ve found, we believe that they do.

  52. #52 D. C. Sessions
    June 21, 2008

    My religion forbids suicide :>)

    So instead of jumping into a tiger pit you’re doing the next best thing?

  53. #53 Dedj
    June 21, 2008

    Is it even possible to get through to this guy?

    Everytime someone points out that the GOV POV on science isn’t exactly accurate and then provides the arguement as to why , he just simply sees it as opposition and assumes that person is making the diametrically opposite one to his own.

    Mr.P, I think you have made it abundantly clear that ‘a little interest’ is exactly what you have in this issue. Anyone with more interest would bother to read the responses to them properly.

  54. #54 MR.P
    June 21, 2008

    So instead of jumping into a tiger pit you’re doing the next best thing?
    First, note the smiley face. Second, I’m f&^*%ing vaccinated, can’t you people read? I was pushed into the ‘tiger pit’ long ago.
    Third, I have two positions which frustrate y’all.
    I believe vaccines should not be mandated.
    I think that there is enough doubt about the safety and effectiveness of the whole pharma/medical industry, to justify a healthy skepticism.
    They are not altruistic. Corporations have only one purpose; make money.
    That’s fine. Lot’s of us, heck most of us, benefit from that system. But if someone chooses to opt out of that system, for whatever reason, then they should have that right. And, in many states, they can opt out of vaccines for a variety of reasons. Some of you want to mandate everyone take the shot.
    I disagree.
    You have your evidence, you’re okay with the gamble. That’s fine.
    If someone objects to a vaccine because say, it may contain monkey virus, or fetal tissue, who are you to tell them tough, take the shot?
    This IS America.

  55. #55 John Best
    June 21, 2008

    A genuis like Epiwonk should be able to do a simple study of vaccines before 1931 and after 1931 to see if there is a correlation between autism and thimerosal. Somehow, I doubt she will reach the correct conclusion.

  56. #56 NJ
    June 21, 2008

    …it may contain monkey virus, or fetal tissue, who are you to tell them tough, take the shot?

    Or aliens or ghosts or Bigfoot or Pauly Shore…

    This IS America.

    Where being stupider than grass clippings is NOT A CRIME!

  57. #57 Shay
    June 21, 2008

    Classic.

    “If on person calls you an ass, laugh.
    If two people call you an ass, consider their words carefully.
    If three wise people call you an ass, get fitted for a saddle.”

    I’m not sure whether to make this a bumper sticker or embroider it on a pillow. Is there a source?

  58. #58 John C. Welch
    June 21, 2008

    Best! Bad Doggie! Get back in your cage in Stupidopolis, or we have to play the taser game again.

    …sorry about that, he dug under the fence again.

    What I don’t see is Mr. P stating how his people being ethical and not getting vaccinated correctly plan to recompense the people they put at risk or make sick when their unvaccinated asses spread shit like pertussis et al around.

    You know, people with depressed immune systems, due to disease, organ transplants, etc. We’re talking about people who, with warnings up front, made the “ethical” decision to not vaccinate, and then those kids get various diseases from other unvaccinated kids and pass them on to people who had no input on that decision.

    Who pays for the funeral for the dude with the kidney transplant who dies from that crap? We all know it won’t be the parents of little diseased debbie, even though it should be. Folks like Mr. P will of course, say “Well, it’s just God’s will” shrug, and amble off.

    Or worse, they’ll blame the medical industry/drug companies for not making a perfectly safe vaccine. Because then there would be no problems.

    Of course, if you point out to Mr. P that his car is not “perfectly safe” so by his logic, the automobile industry should be shuttered. In fact, since no mode of motorized transport is “perfectly safe”, we should go no where outside of walking distance. Not that walking’s safe. Heck, taking a crap can, and has killed. Hmm…Mr P is using computers. We don’t have “all the evidence” that computers are 100% safe. He better stop.

    I find it odd that the same people screaming “VACCINES AREN’T SAFE FOR MAH BAYBEES” will then strap those precious children into cars and drive hither and yon.

    But i’m sure that’s completely different.

  59. #59 John Best
    June 22, 2008

    John Welch,
    I clicked on your name and saw that you’re in favor of queer marriage. I wonder how you’ll feel about queers if your son gets AIDS.

    When one of you yo-yo’s winds up with a kid who smears feces all over the house, you might see the value in removing all of the mercury.

    If that lesson is not lost on you, then you might also see the value of keeping queers in the closet.

  60. #60 D. C. Sessions
    June 22, 2008

    A genuis like Epiwonk should be able to do a simple study of vaccines before 1931 and after 1931 to see if there is a correlation between autism and thimerosal.

    No need to look so hard.

    Up until the 1950s, mercury was used in all sorts of things, including infant teething remedies. There was so much of it in use that acute mercury toxicity was relatively common — we don’t run into “pink disease” any more.

    With that much mercury exposure, there would have been vastly more subacute effects as well, so all you need to do is look at the rates of (for instance) autism in the 50s and 60s to see if they dropped after mercury use was drastically cut back.

    Somehow, I doubt she will reach the correct conclusion.

    Nice of you to admit that the facts have nothing to do with your “knowing.”

  61. #61 D. C. Sessions
    June 22, 2008

    “If on person calls you an ass, laugh.
    If two people call you an ass, consider their words carefully.
    If three wise people call you an ass, get fitted for a saddle.”

    I’m not sure whether to make this a bumper sticker or embroider it on a pillow. Is there a source?

    Variously credited. One source cites a Mexican folk saying, another cites the Talmud. It could be both, or some other source. If you want to check the Talmudic attribution, I’d advise asking one of the Orthodox — I don’t think the English-translation search engines are there yet.

  62. #62 felizkrilll
    June 22, 2008

    TAM 6 Call for papers: James Randi – little blaspheming atheist fraud and his army of robot zombie followers:

    visit:

    http://www.disclose.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=94

    to see how we stopped Randi’s MD paranormal challenge….

    and FINALLY:

    guess what is inside angel’s ENVELOPE:

    ___________________
    |
    | RANDI’S HEAD
    |
    ___________________

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YXHGGfeVzI

  63. #63 HCN
    June 22, 2008

    Just a quickie note:

    Medical Veritas is a crappy journal, it is not indexed at PubMed for a reason. Dan Burton is a politician not a medical researcher and HepB has nothing to do with pertussis. Do you not understand the concept of what constitutes real science and its documentation?

    Oh, wait… you’re the idiot who tried to use “whale.to” as a resource here!

    Personally, I don’t care if you don’t vaccinate. That is, if you are willing to put yourself into a permanent quarantine. Not really a problem with me if you stay away from other people. What I really have a problem with are the idiot parents of the kid who got measles in Switzerland and infected several kids in a doctor’s waiting room! Or the idiot parents in the UK who decide that the MMR was too risky because of a “research” bought and paid for by a lawyer who even provided some of the dozen kids! Oh, and the idiot woman who brought her hacking coughing pertussis infected kid to play with a friend whose mother was pregant:
    http://www.metrokc.gov/health/immunization/newsstories.htm#pertussis

    On the something I have not seen you attempt to answer: so exactly what real evidence do you have that the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis? Use some real medical literature please for evidence. Thank you.

  64. #64 John Best
    June 22, 2008

    DC,
    Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t that teething powder used before 1931? That would prove it did not cause autism since autism did not exist until then. That would make looking at the 50′s and 60′s useless. Sorry, the key date is 1931 and whatever date it will be when ALL thimerosal is out of vaccines.

    Nice of you to toss out red herrings to try to confuse the issue.

  65. #65 Mr. P Rocks!
    June 22, 2008

    Thank you Mr. P for attempting to bring some sense to this group. Unfortunately, most of them are lost causes. It is interesting how they spew nonsense about your vaccination views despite the fact that you have explained that you and your child are fully vaccinated. That is one of their best known tactics… You see the majority of people who now speak out against some/all mandatory vaccinations are those people who have been burned by vaccines. It is those who vaccinated fully and trusted the system who are now called “anti-vaxx” nuts… Makes a lot of sense, doesn’t it?

    You hit the nail on the head though in regards to this group. Get someone of any authority whatsoever telling you that it is in your best interest to RFID yourself and/or your child – these people will be jumping in line to get it done. Orac will be blogging about the dangers of not having your child microchipped and how the non-microchipped children are putting the microchipped children in harm’s way. Time will tell how he will spin it but spin he will….

    I will make note that the Epi-Wanker hasn’t yet given his expert opinion here in regards to the autism Danish studies…

  66. #66 Joseph
    June 22, 2008

    Perhaps the term vocation or obsession would be more appropriate. The point is, HCN has posts going back years (quite a few) and there are many of these. I googled “HCN” and “vaccination” Bingo. There you are, on any site which allowed comments on vaccinations there you were.

    If you were to google “fore sam vaccines”, what would you find? What is its relevance? I don’t believe HCN is the parent of an autistic child, but he’s the parent of a disabled child, I understand, and there are probably other reasons why he’s interested in vaccine rejectionism.

  67. #67 Joseph
    June 22, 2008

    I will make note that the Epi-Wanker hasn’t yet given his expert opinion here in regards to the autism Danish studies…

    Hi Sue. Why don’t you make a request for an analysis over on her blog? That’s an all-epidemiology all-the-time blog.

  68. #68 DT35
    June 22, 2008

    Mr P seems to have some difficulty keeping his story straight. At 8:09 PM he told us that “my child and I are both fully vaccinated.” But at 4:38 PM he had already stated that “My daughter was vaccinated by the time she entered public school, but not for everything.” Doubtful that both assertions are true, unless he used the intervening 3 1/2 hours to run out and get the rest of her immunizations. Just another example of how hard it is to remember the details when you’re making them up as you go along.

  69. #69 Why Bother?
    June 22, 2008

    “Hi Sue. Why don’t you make a request for an analysis over on her blog? That’s an all-epidemiology all-the-time blog”.

    I’m not interested. Orac linked to the Epi-Wankers website and the Epi-Wanker posted here. The Epi-Wanker should be interested in offering up her opinion on the Danish epi studies since she is involving herself in the debate.

    Wank on!

  70. #70 Kristjan Wager
    June 22, 2008

    These days I’m pretty busy, so I don’t have time for reading all the cranks – the killfile script for the Greasemonkey plugin (for firefox) is my friend. Just saying.

    Orac, thanks for the Epi Wonk link

  71. #71 MR.P
    June 22, 2008

    …it may contain monkey virus, or fetal tissue, who are you to tell them tough, take the shot?

    Or aliens or ghosts or Bigfoot or Pauly Shore…

    This IS America.

    Where being stupider than grass clippings is NOT A CRIME!
    Apparently, being ‘stupider than grass clippings’ still elevates me above whatever level you come from, because:
    http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5h21lncVhkSA7bulJcGkOZzz2VaSQ
    Bird flu vaccine grown in monkey cells, not eggs, shows promising results

    Jun 11, 2008

    TORONTO — An avian flu vaccine grown in kidney cells from African green monkeys instead of eggs triggered a good immune response at a relatively low dose, according to a new study that highlights the promise of so-called cell culture vaccine production.

    Must be some kind of conspiracy,huh?
    I just make it up as I go along.
    How easy it is to find information that you lack.
    Do some research before you pop off; even pro-vaccinationists know that monkeys and other animals are where we ‘grow’ most vaccines.

    What I don’t see is Mr. P stating how his people being ethical and not getting vaccinated correctly plan to recompense the people they put at risk or make sick when their unvaccinated asses spread shit like pertussis et al around.
    Assumes facts not in evidence.
    The government pays people who are injured by vaccines($65 million so far this year)…they can pay people injured from not taking vaccines, if such people can be proven to exist.

    Medical Veritas is a crappy journal, it is not indexed at PubMed for a reason
    That reason is PUBMED is run by the cdc; why would they want to admit they might be wrong?
    Yes Dan Burton is a politician. He held hearings. In those hearings it was determined that:
    The Food and Drug
    Administration and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
    rely on these advisory committees to help them make vaccine
    policies that affect every child in America. We’ve looked
    very carefully at conflicts of interest. We’ve taken a good, hard
    look at whether the pharmaceutical industry has too much influence
    over these committees.
    From the evidence we’ve found, we believe that they do.
    You give no evidence that would contradict that conclusion, and I’m sure you have looked.

    It’s not good enough to say this journal is not recognized by PUBMED; they are not the last word on what is or is not valid science.

    Posted by: Mr. P Rocks! | June 22, 2008 9:52 AM
    Thanks for that. I do not understand all the anger.

    Mr P seems to have some difficulty keeping his story straight. At 8:09 PM he told us that “my child and I are both fully vaccinated.” But at 4:38 PM he had already stated that “My daughter was vaccinated by the time she entered public school, but not for everything.” Doubtful that both assertions are true, unless he used the intervening 3 1/2 hours to run out and get the rest of her immunizations.

    There is some reading comprehension needed here. My daughter, got all vaccinations required for school but not as an infant. She got them later. Having received all vaccinations required by the rules for school admission, she was then fully vaccinated. That was 15 years ago. She’s 21 now. Where is your alleged inconsistency?
    I have not received any vaccinations in over 20 years.
    P.S. Her physician was consulted and approved of the vaccination schedule we followed at the time. More vaccinations are required now (recommended?) than were at that time.
    Nice try.

    Or worse, they’ll blame the medical industry/drug companies for not making a perfectly safe vaccine. Because then there would be no problems.

    Of course, if you point out to Mr. P that his car is not “perfectly safe” so by his logic, the automobile industry should be shuttered. In fact, since no mode of motorized transport is “perfectly safe”, we should go no where outside of walking distance
    The government does not mandate I own or operate a motor vehicle. The government does mandate a whole slew of vaccinations.
    And when automobiles were found to be defective (like the exploding pinto) they were fixed or removed from the market, once the covered-up evidence was exposed.
    Reluctantly, when vaccines are found to cause too much harm, they were altered and/or removed. My contention, backed by citations (which HCN does not approve of) is taht evidence of vaccine harm is exposed for only a fraction of the harm they cause, because research on a vaccine, by a vaccine maker, can be a little self-serving.
    By the way, right now I drive only about 2x a week.
    I just want a choice.
    And YES, nature is cruel. Blame god, not me.

    “If on person calls you an ass, laugh. If two people call you an ass, consider their words carefully. If three wise people call you an ass, get fitted for a saddle.”
    Still waiting for the first wise person :>)

  72. #72 MR.P
    June 22, 2008

    One other thing for HCN, the professional vaccine blogger;
    The study linking HEPB to MS; you won’t accept because it’s not on PUBMED, although the article cites journals such as Lancet, Nature, Neurology, Neuroepidemiology, and others from France and India as sources.
    He also said “Principal Findings: Applied to the issue of demyelinating disorders after vaccination against hepatitis B, this conceptual framework makes it
    possible to show that: (1) the authors of most studies challenging the reality of a neurological risk have vested interests (which are not always of
    financial nature); (2) the criticism directed by national (French Agency, U.S. CDC) and international health agencies (WHO) towards investigations
    supporting a neurological risk after hepatitis B vaccination ranges from nonsense to documented forgery; and (3) even in the greatest journals, the
    process of publication has been tainted by the self-serving influence of the drug makers.”
    Which echoes the evidence found by Dan Burton’s committee.
    Pubmed is not the only valid journal of scientific research, and may even be suspect for the above reason.
    You have not disproved any assertion in the article, nor the premise, backed by research, that there is a link between introduction of HEPB and Multiple Sclerosis.
    As a ‘scientist’ I expect better from you.
    And I found many more studies like the one I cited.
    My life is not about trying to prove anything to you or anyone here, and nobody should be afraid of the truth, wherever it leads.
    If vaccines are far more dangerous than we are being told (and the fraud/undue influence uncovered sure makes it look that way) than we should find out as much as we can, without prejudice or political/financial agenda.
    You can objectively look at all the evidence, and make up your own mind. You cannot ignore the evidence that doesn’t support your belief system. I have read the studies and the arguments both pro and con vaccination, and let me say for the upteenth time, I am not anti-vax. I am anti government mandated vax. I want the choice.
    That makes some of you angry.
    Take it out on me, if that makes you feel better, but that does a pretty poor job of advancing your side of the debate, and makes you look weak. So call me an idiot, an ass or whatever, say I believe in aliens because I have done the research and know monky virus (like sv40) is a dangerous contaminant (that used to be in polio vaccines).
    I have been called worse by better.

  73. #73 trrll
    June 22, 2008

    A genuis like Epiwonk should be able to do a simple study of vaccines before 1931 and after 1931 to see if there is a correlation between autism and thimerosal. Somehow, I doubt she will reach the correct conclusion.

    Why stop there? Why don’t you do a simple study of vaccines before 1931 and after 1931 to see if there is a correlation between autism and TV sets. Then answer this question:

    Does TV cause autism? Why or why not?

  74. #74 HCN
    June 22, 2008

    Just stopping by before going to a street fair:

    Oh my word… Mr. P you are an idiot!

  75. #75 John Best
    June 22, 2008

    trrll,
    Maybe thimerosal caused TV sets. Aaaah, the logic of the neuronitwits!

  76. #76 NJ
    June 22, 2008

    Oh, Mr. PPPPPPPPPPeeeeeee?

    Why no comment on the newer post, noting that Kirby has admitted he was incorrect?

    You have to understand, son, that although you go through life imagining that you are a bright, talented person, most everyone else sees you for what you are: just a buffoon.

    People have looked objectively at the evidence. They have concluded that your case is no stronger than that of Brigadier General Jack D. Ripper and fluoridation.

    And ultimately that is what is driving you to spew here. Because you just can’t shake the feeling that people are laughing at you behind your back. They are.

  77. #77 Lexin
    June 23, 2008

    I think that there is enough doubt about the safety and effectiveness of the whole pharma/medical industry, to justify a healthy skepticism.

    The problem is that your ‘healthy scepticism’ in the medical and pharmaceutical industries translates into children dead from entirely preventable diseases. Lovely.

  78. #78 John C. Welch
    June 23, 2008

    John Welch,
    I clicked on your name and saw that you’re in favor of queer marriage. I wonder how you’ll feel about queers if your son gets AIDS.

    Actually, I’m in favor of allowing homosexual marriage. “Queer” marriage is closer to whatever you managed to sucker in to marrying you, and really, that’s just too fucked up for words.

    If we’re talking about me…I’d hug him, remind him that I love him, that he’s not alone in the world, and do whatever I could to help him.

    If we’re talking about you, well, then you’d just put a bullet in his head and justify it in the name of jesus.

    I’d much rather he be gay than an angry, hyperreligious, ignorant asshole like you.

    When one of you yo-yo’s winds up with a kid who smears feces all over the house, you might see the value in removing all of the mercury.

    “end up with a kid who smears feces all over the house”? Dude, I TOLD you to stay out of the fecophile section of the NAMBLA catalog. See what happens when you don’t know what the big words mean?

    If that lesson is not lost on you, then you might also see the value of keeping queers in the closet.

    So…keeping gays in the closet stop autism? Is that only if a witch is made of wood? I’ll admit that it would mean I’d have the nicest closet on the block, but then I’d want to keep them in the kitchen too, maybe let them have a crack at the living room. It’s so hard to really decorate for FL.

    It occurs to me Best, that you’re really unable to not talk about gay people. In fact, you seem to go off on them a lot. Almost as if you were obsessed with the idea. Like maybe you wake up with the hot sweaties, ’cause you were thinking of how badly you want another man’s johnson in your mouth, or maybe you’re thinking more about the fact that you only feel complete with some dude railing your rectum like you were a fresh oil well in Texas.

    Come on Best, it’s okay to admit that when you watch men’s swimming, you’re NOT looking at the clock, and you wish they’d require thongs. It’s okay man, we understand that your sexual fantasies are a sausagefest, and that you only touch a vagina to maintain your image. I bet your wife has to give up the ass a lot, doesn’t she. You know that woman hasn’t crapped right in years.

    Oh, and I know this is a lost cause, but I’m still waiting for Mr. P to justify his use of non-100%-proven-safe items like cars, computers, electricity, etc. I’d include Best in that, but really, watching someone lick the same finger they use to pick their ass gets boring after a while.

  79. #79 Jesse
    June 23, 2008

    Mouthbreathing homophobic misogynist John Best:
    John Welch,
    I clicked on your name and saw that you’re in favor of queer marriage. I wonder how you’ll feel about queers if your son gets AIDS.

    Holy non Sequitor Batman!

    Holy Ad Hominem Falloutboy!

    Best, you’re a walking posterboard why people should extend their educations beyond elementary school.

  80. #80 Jesse
    June 23, 2008

    “If on person calls you an ass, laugh. If two people call you an ass, consider their words carefully. If three wise people call you an ass, get fitted for a saddle.”
    Still waiting for the first wise person :>)

    If one person calls you an ass, laugh.
    If two people call you an ass, consider their words carefully. If three wise people call you an ass, get fitted for a saddle.
    If you continue to deny the nose on your face, seek professional help.

  81. #81 English reader
    June 23, 2008

    Mr P, it’s clear you’re not old enough to remember what things were like when “common” childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough (pertussis), measles, and mumps really were common. My parents were born in the early 1930s. My mother’s twin sister died of measles when she was a year old. Several others in the same area also died in the same outbreak. One of her contemporaries died and two others were left disabled following polio. One of my father’s friends is profoundly deaf as a result of measles, and another sterile after catching mumps. I’m sure they could dredge up a fair few other examples if I asked them.

    There are good reasons why general paediatric health is better and infant mortality rates are so much lower these days. One of the most important is vaccination. Sadly, in the UK we’re heading back to the bad old days.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/official-warning-measles-endemic-in-britain-851584.html

The site is undergoing maintenance presently. Commenting has been disabled. Please check back later!