I suppose I had better get ready for another e-mail with a wounded, puppy-dog, plaintive complaint of “I’m not really anti-vaccine” in it. You see, that’s what has happened in the past a couple of times after I wrote about that pediatrician to the children of the stars (in particular Jenny McCarthy‘s child) and ubiquitous go-to pediatrician whenever the media wants to hear some “skepticism” about the safety of vaccines, Dr. Jay Gordon. Clearly, it really, really bothers him when someone refers to him as being “anti-vaccine,” but what other term fits him so well these days? After all, Dr. Gordon toes the anti-vaccine party line from Generation Rescue, Talk About Curing Autism, and, of course, the celebrity mom of his patient, and he has the “too many, too soon” spiel down pat. He shows up at rallies to give speeches to parents carrying explicitly antivaccination signs proclaiming their children as “poisoned” and “damaged’ by vaccines, one sign even referring to them as “weapons of mass destruction.”

Honestly, what am I supposed to call Dr. Gordon, if not “anti-vaccine”? He hangs out with hard-core antivaccinationists–more than that, leaders of the anti-vaccine movement–and talks the anti-vaccine talk so well. He’s become the go-to interview whenever a lazy journalist wants some vaccine “skepticism” from a medical professional. What more does one need?

The other day, once again Dr. Gordon demonstrated his skill with anti-vaccine talking points in this interview with Cookie Magazine. It’s painful to read such idiocy flowing from the lips of a physician. Indeed, it’s even worse than listening to Dr. Michael Egnor spew creationist nonsense hither and yon, because at least for Dr. Egnor evolution is not part of his area of expertise. For Dr. Gordon, vaccines should be considered part of his area expertise, but you’d never know it from the data-free, anecdote-filled nonsense he spouts. For example, listen to his response to a question about why he buys into the “too many, too soon” mantra and advocates “staggering” vaccines:

I think the immune system, like every other system of the body, matures slowly, and that it can better tolerate viral infection at older ages and better tolerate one virus at a time. The other thing is that vaccines all contain other ingredients. They contain aluminum, they contain tiny bits of formalin [an aqueous solution of formaldahyde]. So I recommend waiting as long as parents are comfortable, and vaccinating very, very slowly. I also ask parents to wait at least six months before the first vaccine. I prefer to wait a year.

Formaldehyde? Aluminum? Oh, my God! Toxins! I can’t believe a physician is parroting the “toxin” gambit about vaccines. That’s the single most idiotic and scientifically ignorant rhetorical gambit antivaccinationists use, and Dr. Gordon apparently buys into it. Did Dr. Gordon skip pharmacology class in medical school?

Of course, Dr. Gordon, showing that even physicians can be prone to putting too much stock in testimonials and anecdotes over science and epidemiology, points out the cases of regression he’s seen after vaccination, argues:

Now, many people would argue that vaccines are only for the better. I would say that there’s no free lunch; it is lovely to be immune to whooping cough, but if I have to diminish your health a little bit to do that, I have to hesitate. Integrity demands that I tell you other parts of the story: I saw one child who developed seizures two days after her two-month appointment, and she didn’t get any shots. It’s true that the onset of autism often coincides with the time that kids are getting their shots. But the vast majority of times that I see a temporal relationship, I’m assuming it’s not a coincidence.

Assuming? Note that Dr. Gordon cannot produce a single scientific study to support his beliefs. Not one. In fact, I once replied to one of his e-mails chastising me for referring to him as “anti-vaccine.” In my response, having seen snippets of his video posted to YouTube and other places as well as a video of his speech to the “Green Our Vaccines” rally, I asked him pointedly but politely if he could provide me with the references to the scientific studies that support what he said in those videos and, most importantly, at the Green Our Vaccines rally.

Dr. Gordon never got back to me. I wonder if he’ll get back to me now.

While I wait, I’ll point out that Dr. Gordon continues to say truly dumb things about the MMR like:

It’s a live-virus vaccine. A live-virus vaccine, in order to work, creates a little bit of an infection. And when you get measles, you get it through your nose and your throat, [which triggers a very specific immune response.] When we inject measles, we are bypassing that system and going right into the bloodstream. And we’re finding that yes, there can be some impact on the intestinal tract and to the brain from the measles vaccine. And it’s a vaccine of almost no benefit to American children, one by one. Now, in terms of public health, I don’t want to be the guy who said, “Boy, this vaccine stinks.” It doesn’t stink. It works very, very well. The reason we don’t have measles in America is because the vaccine works great. But sit down, please. Let’s talk about the fact that your cousin and your other cousin both have autism. Or that your son has some questionable neurological issues, he seems to be speaking or walking a little later. I don’t want to mess with him.

Number one: The measles vaccine is not of “almost no benefit to American children.” It keeps measles at bay, and the resurgence of measles that we have seen in the U.K. and are now seeing in the U.S., thanks to decreased levels of vaccination due to fearmongering about the MMR vaccine shows how little it would take for herd immunity to fail. Number two: There is zero scientifically sound evidence that the MMR causes autism or other neurodevelopmental disorders–or even “autistic enterocolitis.” None. All we have is Andrew Wakefield’s litigation-driven and incompetent “research,” research so badly done that his co-authors almost all disavowed it when its deficiencies came to light. That Dr. Gordon apparently believes that shoddy pseudoscience does not speak well of him.

It gets worse. Gordon parrots the usual misinformation about mercury in flu vaccines and even mentions a 7-year-old getting a tetanus booster with mercury in it. It makes me wonder if he served as an uncredited background consultant for Steve Wilson, so similar is his patter to the misinformation served up by that “investigative journalist.” Here’s a hint, Dr. Gordon: Most children do not get the flu vaccine, especially not under two years of age, and, even as the use of the flu vaccine is encouraged, flu vaccines containing more than trace amounts of thimerosa are increasingly uncommon because of low demand. It is likely that the marketplace will soon render them all but extinct. Also, children don’t suddenly get autism at age 7 after getting a vaccine. The bottom line is that children’s exposure to thimerosal from vaccines is lower than it has been since the 1980s and is continuing to decline, but there’s no sign of a significant decline in autism diagnoses. None. That’s about as bulletproof epidemiological evidence as there is showing no correlation between the two. I know, I know, I’m probably wasting my time, given the way that Dr. Gordon goes back to the whole “toxins” idiocy again:

Right now we’re creating vaccines using ingredients that are cheap preservatives, but it could be done better. It means, let’s see if we can get the aluminum out of them. Let’s see if we can get the formaldehyde out of them. Let’s see if we can produce them in a way that makes a little more sense for safety.

Word to Dr. Gordon: Aluminum is not a preservative. It is an adjuvant. It’s there to make the vaccine produce a stronger immune response and thus make the vaccine work better. It’s an integral component of what makes the vaccine work. There’s also no evidence it has anything to do with autism or any other neurodevelopmental or immunological disorder. Of course, now that the mercury is gone from all vaccines routinely given to children under two, we all know that aluminum is becoming the new mercury for antivaccinationists. Never mind that aluminum has been used for 80 years and has an exemplary safety record.

Oh, and, please, Dr. Gordon, please stop with the formaldehyde bit. I know it’s a convenient scary-sounding chemical used in the vaccine manufacturing process that antivaccinationists like to point to, but by the time the finished vaccine is made, there’s nothing more than a trace amount in any vaccine. You breathe more formaldehyde sitting in an L.A. traffic jam in your Mercedes (or whatever no doubt highly expensive care you drive, thanks to credulous patients like Jenny McCarthy) than is in any vaccine. The plastic products and varnishes in your house produce more. Really, Dr. Gordon, I’m not kidding when I say that it’s downright embarrassing to me as a physician to see a fellow physician like you saying something so utterly scientifically ignorant for public consumption. Really. Take it as a bit of advice from one physician to another. Your repeating that particular bit of antivaccinationist propaganda just makes you look really, really ignorant. Of course, if you actually believe that stuff about formaldehyde, you are really, really ignorant. If you don’t believe it, then you’re really, really cynical. Take your pick.

On the other hand, perhaps you don’t care. What else could explain your pièce de résistance? What else could explain this statement:

I think that the public health benefits to vaccinating are grossly overstated. I think that if we spent as much time telling people to breastfeed or to quit eating cheese and ice cream, we’d save more lives than we save with the polio vaccine.

The stupid, it sears. It burns thermonuclear. No, it flames supernova. Yeah, that’s right, Dr. Gordon. Breast feeding and keeping cheese out of the diet will prevent the spread of infectious diseases better than vaccines. Funny, but Europeans eat lots more cheese than Americans, and they don’t seem to be any less healthy than we are. On the other hand, per capita U.S. cheese consumption has been rising since the 1980s. Hey, I have an idea! Maybe it’s maternal cheese consumption, not vaccines, that causes autism! In the meantime, we can have a whole bunch of svelte kids suffering from vaccine-preventable diseases.

As bad as Dr. Gordon’s interview was, there was one thing even worse. I bet you know what it was if you’ve taken the time to look at the actual interview. That’s right, the title of the web page is Q&A: Vaccine Experts. Dr. Gordon, a “vaccine expert”? I think not. But it’s worse than that. Dr. Gordon’s fact- and science-free interview is presented on equal footing, as a sort of “Point/Counterpoint” format with a real vaccine expert, Dr. Paul Offit. This is akin to telling “both sides” of the evolution-creationism manufactroversy by pairing Richard Dawkins or Sean Carroll as the expert supporting the theory of evolution and Ken Ham or Casey Luskin as the “expert” supporting creationism. It’s the whole lazy, wretched “tell both sides of the story as though they are equivalent” habit that journalists just can’t seem to stop writ large. As long as this is how anti-vaccine propaganda is reported by the media, advocates for the value of vaccines as a public health measure are losing. As long as Google searches for “vaccine” and other vaccine-related terms inevitably turn up page after page of anti-vaccine propaganda, we’re losing, as PalMD points out. One website, the Vaccine Education Center, is not enough, nor is one book like Do Vaccines Cause That? (hat tip: Skeptico).

Finally, one last word to Dr. Gordon: If you’re going to e-mail me and complain about how mean I am, please do me a solid. Please don’t bother unless you can stir yourself to provide me something other than whines about how unfair I’m being when I describe you as “anti-vaccine.” You think I’m being unfair? Prove it. Of course, doing so would take some actual–oh, say–scientific evidence to back up your statements, and you’ve assiduously avoided providing that in the past.

Comments

  1. #1 HCN
    August 5, 2008

    Dawn, where is your real evidence about SV40 that is more recent and as detailed as this:
    http://jco.ascopubs.org/cgi/content/full/24/26/4356

  2. #2 Lenny
    August 6, 2008

    Funny, that article doesn’t mention anything about the fact that the SV40 has been FOUND in many tumors. So, yes, I believe that there is a connection with the virus and cancer.

  3. #3 HCN
    August 6, 2008

    prove it

  4. #4 Prometheus
    August 7, 2008

    Jay Gordon makes the following claim (repeatedly):

    “Dr. Offit is dishonest about his conflicts of interest. They should be revealed much more clearly. He is making millions of dollars. Possibly tens of millions of dollars from the use of a vaccine he’s promoting.” [emphasis added]

    In all of the comments from Dr. Gordon, I fail to see any substantiation of this claim. Somehow, he just knows that Dr. Offit is making “…millions of dollars…” from the rotavirus vaccine.

    If Dr. Gordon has documentation of his claim, then I feel he should reveal it. If not, then this is yet another example of Dr. Gordon irresonsibly spreading information that he cannot support with data.

    Prometheus

  5. #5 Dawn
    August 7, 2008

    Don’t believe a word these “pro-vaccine” people say. The majority of them are paid “impersonators”. I will give a great example.

    Last year, I joined a forum called Great Schools aka Schwab for learning disabled children. Well, a met this horrible woman named “Denali”. When I began to suspect that vaccines were to blame for the majority of our nation’s handicapped children, she attacked me and had all of this BS scientific jargon to back up her claims.

    Well, come to find out “Denali” is actually “LizDitz” and she doesn’t have a learning disabled daughter at all (she claimed this on the LD forum). She is an imposter. When I checked out her blog – low and behold a lot of the names on this forum are the same posters on her blog.

    http://lizditz.typepad.com/

    A legitimate guess would be that isles, HCN, techskeptic, Diane, and others work for Big Pharma. The question is which company? They are paid to spread these “good vaccine” lies. They respond to news stories, blogs, and pretend to be something they are not and so on. They have probably infilitrated Learning Disability forums, SIDS groups, etc. – any groups that have been affected by vaccines.

    Very clever you guys, but I’m not fooled.

  6. #6 Orac
    August 7, 2008

    Pharma shill gambit.

    Really, Dawn, you’ll have to do better than that. Your comment is utterly pathetic.

  7. #7 Dawn
    August 7, 2008

    Well, if Lizditz or Denali or whatever the heck her real name is an imposter – than so are you. In fact your name is featured on her blog also.

    http://lizditz.typepad.com/

    ORAC my ass. Who are you really?

  8. #8 Kev
    August 7, 2008

    Hi Dawn,

    My name’s Kevin Leitch. I live and work in the UK and fully agree with and support the comments of both Liz and Orac. I am the parent of a severely autistic child. I receive no money from anyone other than my employer who works in a field utterly unrelated to vaccines, health, science or the government. I am a web developer.

    I think you, on the other hand, are little more than a conspiracy-minded buffoon with nothing better to do than make up stuff about people who are both smarter and better organised than you. You really should stop. It makes you look like an idiot.

  9. #9 Prometheus
    August 7, 2008

    I’d like to propose the following as a new “Internet Law”:

    As the number of people alleged to be involved in a “secret conspiracy” goes up, the chance that the person alleging the “conspiracy” has a psychiatric disorder also increases.

    Having accused everyone who ‘blogs or comments in favor of science and reason over rumor and superstition of being part of the “Big Pharma Conspiracy” (BPC), Dawn has raised serious concerns about her mental state.

    Seriously, if everyone who objects to the simplistic “vaccines cause autism” arguments were in the pay of “Big Pharma”, don’t you think someone working in the pharmaceutical industry – some lowly clerk or maybe someone in the mail room watching the checks go out – would have “blown the whistle”?

    Big conspiracies never stay secret for long, Dawn. Consider getting help.

    Prometheus

  10. #10 HCN
    August 7, 2008

    Dawn, you are presenting a very strong case that your son’s learning disabilities are genetic in origin.

  11. #11 TheProbe
    August 7, 2008

    Dawn will have to get up a lot earlier in the morning to prove her claims.

  12. #12 Orac
    August 7, 2008

    ORAC my ass. Who are you really?

    I’m hurt that you don’t think I’m a clear plastic box full of multicolored blinking lights.

  13. #13 Dawn
    August 7, 2008

    You guys don’t have me fooled for a minute. Actually research is showing that yes, the damage done to our generations IS vaccine related. It is about “stealth viruses” introduced by vaccines. So, the children receive further assault when their parents were vaccinated and then they were subsequently vaccinated.

    What vaccines are truly about it keeping people chronically ill, mentally deficient, and possible not able to produce. It is called population control and it dates all the way back to the earlier generations of the Rockefellers. I know how much everyone likes to google. Well, start with the Rockefeller family and their ties to Big Pharma. Then start researching the political movement of the United Nations, Trilateral Commission, and the Council on Foreign Relations. Then start researching their ties to “Every Child by Two”.

    The vaccine package inserts say it all “Carcinogenesis, Mutagenesis, and Impairment of Fertility: No studies have been done”.

    The sad part is that they have people like you eating right out of their hands. Whether you choose to vaccinate yourself or loves ones with polluted, contaminated vial products won’t matter. If your children happen to have babies with vaccinated persons – chances are they will be affected too.

    All of these scientific links that you supply are studies paid for by GUESS WHO? Of course they are not going to find fault with vaccines you big dummies!

  14. #14 Kev
    August 7, 2008

    “You guys don’t have me fooled for a minute. Actually research is showing that yes, the damage done to our generations IS vaccine related. It is about “stealth viruses” introduced by vaccines.”

    Yeah? Where is this research? National Enquirer? Daily Mail? Whale.to? Rense.com?

  15. #15 Liz Ditz
    August 7, 2008

    Dawn, Dawn, Dawn.

    Well, come to find out “Denali” is actually “LizDitz” and she doesn’t have a learning disabled daughter at all (she claimed this on the LD forum). She is an imposter.

    An imposter? [checking mirror, checking driver’s license] Nope. I’m me. I’m real.

    As to my daughter — careful, here, Dawn. Like most mothers, I’m pretty fierce in protecting my daughter. I don’t use her real name to protect her privacy. She’s real too, as is her disability. I’ve got the documentation to prove it.

    As to my employment by Big Pharma–nope, not that either. No big checks, no cash. I don’t hold any patents, either.

    she attacked me and had all of this BS scientific jargon to back up her claims.

    I don’t remember exactly what I said at Schwab & GreatSchools–it was back in February, I believe–but IIRC, you made large and unsubstantiated claims about a putative connection between learning disabilities and vaccination. I asked you for proof and provided factual evidence that your claims were unsubstantiated. If that’s what you construe as “an attack,” I would say that you are unused to vigorous intellectual discourse.

    But thanks for the copious links to my blog.

    As to why I’m a outspoken voice against anti-vaccination propaganda:

    1. I got interested in the subject when my daughter was an infant, when a family member tried to convince me that vaccinating her was “dangerous to her immune system” (this was before the autism/vaccination meme came up).
    2. I was astonished by the stupidity and anti-science ranting in the vaccine-rejectionist community
    3. I believe that maintaining high levels of vaccine uptake (90%+) is an important step in public health and national security
    4. It is not sufficient for vaccine support to come from physicians — lay people ought to be vocal about the public and individual health value of universal vaccination, and ought to be vocal in pointing out the flaws in the anti-vaccination propaganda.
    5. The focus on the failed hypothesis that vaccines are causal in autism takes attention and resources away from what families affected by autism need: earlier identification, more effective and efficient intervention, and more services, supports, and opportunities for adults with autism.

  16. #16 Joe
    August 7, 2008

    Dawn | August 7, 2008 2:57 PM wrote “You guys don’t have me fooled for a minute.” I guess we should concede it.

    Have you read David Icke’s book “The Biggest Secret”? He explains it all- the Reptilians created the Babylonian Brotherhood to keep us all under control. Anyone with two ears to hear with can see that only clear-thinkers such as yourself can get to the truth.

    For the purity of our natural essence, I encourage you to campaign on. However, I must deny you my essence.

  17. #17 Dawn
    August 7, 2008

    So, what you people are telling me is that there is such thing as herd immunity? Particularly the recent whooping cough incident – almost all were vaccinated. Funny, history proves you so wrong.

    So, if even one child dies for the sake of the vaccine program, NONE of you have a problem with this is what you are telling me. I just spoke with 4 mothers who recently lost their children because of vaccines. A 4 year old, 5 year old and (2) 4 month old babies.

    None of you here have a problem with a vaccine tracking system in schools the “Every Child by Two” is pushing? No more privacy when it comes to health issues. Remember the HIPAA form that you all signed? Read it very carefully. Have you had blood work done recently? Read the informed consent form very carefully under the section “Scientific Experimentation/Research”. You don’t have a problem with strangers having your DNA or your children’s?

    You don’t wonder why just outside of Atlanta 500,000 plastic coffins are already lined up and waiting to be filled? By all means vaccinate your family. That is exactly what they are counting on when this bogus “pandemic” hits. Keep eating your GM foods, keep using your hormone altering plastics & health & beauty products, etc.

    Funny, the only healthy people that I am hearing about (children) are the ones who are not vaccinated. Never even seen doctors other than the day they were born. Coincidence? Nope. Just further proof. One mother stopped vaccinated her kids when her 4th child was born. Her 4th is the only one not in Special Ed.

    That sure would explain why a local elementary school has 35 Special Ed teachers and 28 regular teachers. There are less than 400 children in the entire school! Further proof that vaccines are to blame.

    So, just why exactly are schools not saying anything? Why, they receive funds for every fully immunized child of course! They don’t want to rock the boat. 1 in 67 children have Autism and are in Spec Ed according to the U.S. Dept of Education in 2007 (this number represents elementary school children). Further proof that the vaccines are to blame.

    So, if none of these viruses or chemicals have been tested on humans, that sure would explain these links below. It would also explain the role of HHS. Vaccines are purely experimental.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/usc_sec_50_00001520—a000-.html

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/usc_sec_50_00001524—-000-.html

    FYI – the “Spanish Flu” only affected the vaccinated. How many died from it?

    So, again by all means, keep spreading the lies because you have a growing number of parents not listening to them.

  18. #18 Joseph
    August 7, 2008

    A legitimate guess would be that isles, HCN, techskeptic, Diane, and others work for Big Pharma.

    In what planet would this unfounded speculation be legitimate?

    I think Dawn is actually a paid shill for vaccine injury lawyers. Don’t you see? She gets paid to try to smear people who are pro-vaccine. Of course, I don’t have evidence of any of this, but who needs evidence to point out the obvious?

  19. #19 Curious
    August 7, 2008

    Can someone explain to me the connection between the Reptilians and “body thetans”? Is our Dawn a Scientology shill? http://www.xenu-directory.net/practices/bt.html

  20. #20 notmercury
    August 7, 2008

    Dawn said: “You guys don’t have me fooled for a minute. Actually research is showing that yes, the damage done to our generations IS vaccine related. It is about “stealth viruses” introduced by vaccines.

    Sure Dawn, but fellow crackpot John Martin calls you anti-vaccine.

    http://www.iminhere.ca/acestudy/Autism,%20Vaccines,%20Stealth%20Adapted%20Viruses%20and%20Mitochondria%20Dysfunction.pdf

    “Again, the anti-vaccine proponents have argued for that vaccines are potentially damaging even to normal mitochondria because of chemical contaminants, including mercury.”

  21. #21 Orac
    August 7, 2008

    You don’t wonder why just outside of Atlanta 500,000 plastic coffins are
    already lined up and waiting to be filled? By all means vaccinate your
    family.

    Cue the theme from The Twilight Zone.

  22. #22 Curious
    August 7, 2008

    Dawn, did Dr. Gordon abandon you here to flap around in your paranoia?

  23. #23 Joseph
    August 7, 2008

    Funny, the only healthy people that I am hearing about (children) are the ones who are not vaccinated.

    Dawn, are you familiar with the organization named Generation Rescue? I’m sure you’re a big fan. Explain this to me. When they conducted a survey of vaccinated and unvaccinated children, why did they find that completely unvaccinated children were diagnosed with ASD at a rate of 3.73%? (The rate for vaccinated was 3.01%). Not that they ever mentioned these findings.

  24. #24 Dawn
    August 7, 2008

    Thanks Liz for that insight. I guess you should have listened to your relatives when your daughter was a baby. If you had, she probably wouldn’t be dyslexic. That sure explains your hatred for the anti-vax movement. Guilt. Just how healthy were your relatives’ kids? Hmmm…probably very.

  25. #25 Curious
    August 7, 2008

    Dawn, did Dr. Gordon abandon you here to flap around in your ignorance, too? So do children suddenly fall into the hell that is dyslexia following a vaccine? How does that work? If you give a 6 year old a vaccine will he suddenly lose the ability to read?

  26. #26 Liz Ditz
    August 7, 2008

    Dawn, so you now accept that I (and my daughter) are real people? So reassuring.

    And no, vaccination didn’t cause her dyslexia. It (and ADHD) seem to run in both of her parents’ families, including now-dead members who were born in the 1870s and 1880s, and therefore likely unvaccinated against anything. One of my grandparents lost several siblings to diptheria.

    Do I feel guilt over her dyslexia? Not at all–the dyslexia is part of who she is. And my selectively-vaccinating relatives’ kids are in fact less healthy than my daughter.

    Dawn, I’m going to repeat what was written to you several times at SchwabLearning and GreatSchools:

    You express a great deal of fear and anger in your posts. You express some irrational ideas (such as the mind control stuff).

    Please, talk to your pastor or a social worker about the anger and fear, and how you can become more centered and less reactive. Don’t do it for you, do it for your children. Your children need a mother who is calm and realistic.

  27. #27 Prometheus
    August 7, 2008

    From Dawn:

    “What vaccines are truly about it keeping people chronically ill, mentally deficient, and possible not able to produce. It is called population control and it dates all the way back to the earlier generations of the Rockefellers.”

    I think that all the adults in this discussion should leave Dawn alone and stop aggravating her. Anyone who believes this has clearly shown that they are non compos mentis. It is cruel and inhumane to torment people who cannot discern the difference between reality and their own delusions.

    You all can do what you like, but I’m done with Dawn – I hope she gets the help she needs.

    Prometheus

  28. #28 Joseph
    August 7, 2008

    You are probably right, Prometheus. Are Dawn and David Ayoub the same person, or is there actually more than one person who believes that?

  29. #29 Dawn
    August 7, 2008

    Wow! Just like a pack of wild dogs! I guess I made some valid points for all of you to “jump’ the way that you did. Thanks for the entertainment.

  30. #30 Natalie
    August 7, 2008

    Oh, Prometheus, why must you be a voice of reason? Dawn has been more entertaining than television.

  31. #31 isles
    August 7, 2008

    If you care at all about your children, Dawn, get help.

  32. #32 Dawn
    August 7, 2008

    If anyone knows of any Gardasil victims, Erin Brockovich’s law firm is taking cases free of charge.

  33. #33 Dawn
    August 7, 2008

    Liz – I actually spoke with an Audiologist, Behavioral Optometrist, and Opthamologist….they were quite shocked to see the vaccine package inserts. Take a look under “Special Senses: Eye/Ear”. They ALL agreed that the sharp rise in learning disabilities may actually be vaccine adverse reactions. I also find it funny that you used an unproven method to teach dyslexia and it worked. You are such a hypocrite according to your own blog! Where is the science? SHOW ME THE SCIENCE BEHIND YOUR TEACHINGS! I guess parents’ anecdotal evidence is significant after all -your blog reinforces that.

    http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/meruvax_ii/meruvax_ii_pi.pdf

    (page 6 for common adverse reactions with Ears/Eyes – these can definitely attribute to many learning disabilities to include the following: Dyslexia, Visual Processing Disorders, Auditory Processing Disorders, Speech/Language Impairments, etc)

    http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf (page 7 for info on posing a contagious threat to others)

    http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_infanrix.pdf (page 7 to view ex. of new warning on EVERY vaccine)

    http://vaers.hhs.gov/pdf/PackageInserts.pdf (to view all vaccines)

    Google the mapping/wiring process of the brain. The most important process occurs between birth and 3 years old. The chemicals that go into vaccines have been shown to cause nerve/cell damage in lab animals. What on Earth do you think happens to an infant’s developing brain?

    It is time for all of you to start “thinking outside the box”.

  34. #34 Lenny
    August 7, 2008

    I hate to point this out LizDitz, but you state on your personal blog (referred earlier) that you used a method of teaching a Dyslexic with no proven science to back it up. You also stated that it worked. Well, I’m sorry, but you have proven that anecdotal evidence offered by parents is sufficient evidence. So, maybe these parents of Autistic children are right on target.

  35. #35 Kev
    August 7, 2008

    Lenny – I think you’re going to be hard pushed to draw a comparison between teaching someone and risking their life via chelation/lupron/etc.

  36. #36 HCN
    August 7, 2008

    I am all for what Prometheus said, and leave Dawn alone with her delusions… but she said “So, if even one child dies for the sake of the vaccine program, NONE of you have a problem with this is what you are telling me. I just spoke with 4 mothers who recently lost their children because of vaccines. A 4 year old, 5 year old and (2) 4 month old babies.”

    Again those are anecdotes, and going by the fact that recently a child being killed in a car crash was blamed on a vaccine, and I have seen where a VAERS account was for a baby was was found on the floor next to the couch after co-sleeping with the mother… I would really need good evidence.

    In the mean time we have some real data:
    Numbers from http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/appdx-full-g.pdf

    This is for pertussis:
    Year____Cases____Deaths
    2000_____7867______ 12
    2001_____7580______ 17
    2002_____9771______ 18
    2003____11647______ 11
    2004____25827______ 27
    2005____25616______ 39
    2006____15632______ 16
    Total__103940______140

    The last death figures are from this slide set:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/Slides/Pertussis10.ppt#9 … Slide 9. Of the 82 deaths from pertussis during 2004 through 2006, 69 were of infants under the age of three months, while the remaining 13 were older than three months.

    Now for tetanus:
    Year____Cases____Deaths
    2000_______35______ 5
    2001_______37______ 5
    2002_______25______ 5
    2003_______20______ 4
    2004_______34______ NA
    2005_______27______ NA
    2006_______41______ NA
    Total_____219______More than 20

    Now for measles:
    Year____Cases____Deaths
    2000_______86______ 1
    2001______116______ 1
    2002_______44______ 0
    2003_______56______ 1
    2004_______37______ NA
    2005_______66______ NA
    2006_______55______ NA
    Total_____460______3 or more

    Now for mumps:
    Year____Cases____Deaths
    2000______338______ 2
    2001______266______ 0
    2002______270______ 1
    2003______231______ 0
    2004______258______ NA
    2005______314______ NA
    2006_____6584______ NA
    Total____8261______3 or more

    Total of cases of those four diseases over the seven year period is 112880, and over 150 dead. This does not include the 16 cases of Congenital Rubella Syndrome listed in the table for the years 2000 through 2006. But we already know Dawn doesn’t care about babies. She would rather see them dead than alive. Nor does she care about the ones who lived and are permanently disabled.

    Now if we went Dawn’s way and eliminated the DTaP and the MMR then we will go back to the numbers that are listed for the 1950s (the return of pertussis is already happening, and measles and mumps have returned to Japan and the UK, the USA is not far behind). I have not calculated the deaths from tetanus, pertussis, measles and mumps for the the years between 1950 and 1956 inclusive, but a quick glance shows it to be multiple thousands. Perhaps that would make Dawn happy.

    That it… I am done with Dawn’s delusions.

    Now if Dr. Jay would like to tell us how the DTaP and MMR are worse than the data shown above, I would love to see the real actual scientific data.

  37. #37 Lenny
    August 7, 2008

    Actually HCN,

    Your figures stated above are lacking one very important piece of evidence too. How many of those deaths occured in the vaccinated?

    Of the now 26 probable whooping cough cases in Polk County the evidence is as follows:

    16 cases completed their vaccinations with either 4 or 5 vaccinations.

    4 cases had one or two vaccinations due to under age or parent did not keep up with vaccine schedule.

    1 case was not vaccinated at all, due to age.

    1 case was unvaccinated due to claming religious exemption

    2 cases – info was not obtained due to case greater or equal to 15 years old

    2 cases info was unknown either from inability to contact
    or parent did not know or have info.

    These facts derived from the director of public health for Polk County, Dr. Daniel Haight.

    It is just my opinion, but those are not very good odds. That leads me to question other vaccines also.

  38. #38 Diane
    August 7, 2008

    It’s interesting how people with no actual data turn to children’s taunts and name-calling. For the record, Dawn, I have no association with any pharmaceutical company. I resent your efforts to paint mine (and others’) comments as Big Pharma shills. I think I understand why you are anti-vaccine, what with the medical issues your family is facing and has faced due, you believe, to vaccination; do you understand why I support vaccinations despite having zero financial stakes in Big Pharma?

  39. #39 HCN
    August 7, 2008

    Lenny moaned “Your figures stated above are lacking one very important piece of evidence too. How many of those deaths occured in the vaccinated?”

    Who the hell cares? That has nothing to do with reality. Check the numbers for 1950. Those people were NOT vaccinated (because the vaccines did not exist, and there was not a very good vaccine program until a decade or more after). Just for that year there were over 1000 dead from pertussis, over 400 for tetanus, over 450 for measles, and for the seven years of 1950 through 1956 there were over 3000 deaths just from measles (and the polio deaths were over 10000). No one has said the vaccines were 100% effective… but the chances of injury with the vaccine are lots less than with the real disease.

    I see you still have no references, even if you mention a “Polk County”, I don’t see a URL listed — did you forget that?.

    Lenny continues “It is just my opinion, but those are not very good odds. That leads me to question other vaccines also.”

    Your opinion is worth the electrons going through your keyboard… not much. Just provide proof that the DTaP is more dangerous than pertussis, diphtheria and tetanus and that the MMR is worse than measles, mumps and rubella. NOT opinion… just real proof, real data, real science.

    Until you post some actual factual data that can be verified and held to real scrutiny, I will ignore you, along with Dawn.

  40. #40 Lenny
    August 7, 2008

    I honestly didn’t think anyone could answer my previous question. I do urge you all to call Dr. Danial Haight though for clarification on why the majority of whooping cough cases were previously vaccinated. His number is (515) 286-3798. I would also like to know why this was not made evident in the news.

    The article below mentions only 23, but there are 26 now.

    http://www.theledger.com/article/20080729/NEWS/807280506

    Again, HCN, your statistics are missing some vital information. How many of those deaths occured in the vaccinated?

  41. #41 Lenny
    August 7, 2008

    “Who the hell cares? That has nothing to do with reality. Check the numbers for 1950. Those people were NOT vaccinated (because the vaccines did not exist, and there was not a very good vaccine program until a decade or more after). Just for that year there were over 1000 dead from pertussis, over 400 for tetanus, over 450 for measles, and for the seven years of 1950 through 1956 there were over 3000 deaths just from measles (and the polio deaths were over 10000). No one has said the vaccines were 100% effective… but the chances of injury with the vaccine are lots less than with the real disease”. Stated by HCN.

    I’m sorry, but the Pink Book is not exactly an accurate source of information. Their data shown conflicts with previously reported figures over the years.

    Also, who exactly told you that the chance of injury is less than those figures stated? My advice to you my friend is to sit down with a hot cup of Joe and take a look at the information compiled in the link below.

    http://vaers.hhs.gov/

  42. #42 Joseph
    August 7, 2008

    I do urge you all to call Dr. Danial Haight though for clarification on why the majority of whooping cough cases were previously vaccinated.

    I would suggest that’s simply because most people (as in almost all) are vaccinated.

    My advice to you my friend is to sit down with a hot cup of Joe and take a look at the information compiled in the link below.

    Funny, you think we’re not familiar with VAERS? We know about VAERS and we know just how reliable its data is. I wrote a short post about it recently here.

  43. #44 Lenny
    August 7, 2008

    Might I recommend something? In a quest for the truth, you shall find it. I actually prefer the older editions of our beloved medical journals. The information contained in the older editions is quite different than what I read of today (same journals, yet different data). I just wanted to depart with that last thought for everyone.

  44. #45 kristina
    August 7, 2008

    I believe Dawn is providing evidence for why conspiracy theories and paranoid thinking run amok regarding the autism-vaccine hypothesis.

  45. #46 ozzy
    August 8, 2008

    “Might I recommend something? In a quest for the truth, you shall find it. I actually prefer the older editions of our beloved medical journals. The information contained in the older editions is quite different than what I read of today”

    Yeah, no s>?t! Current day experimental methods and basic understanding of disease could never compete with that of the 1940s.

    Dawn,
    This Pharma Shill really needs to talk to the Pharma commander about a raise so I can upgrade my current car with 100K+ miles and a muffler that’s about ready to fall off. By the way, I have also scheduled a meeting with the Supreme Commander to discuss the reasons why the birth rate in the US has been on the upswing in recent years. I guess the population control plan needs to be retooled. Since you are so adept at labeling people, I think someone really needs to tell you that you are a raging paranoid schizo. As someone who has family experience with schizophrenia I suggest that you seek medical attention immediately. Early treatment is the key to a successful recovery.

  46. #47 franklin
    August 8, 2008

    Lenny wants to know how many of the fatalities due to whooping cough occurred in people who had previously been vaccinated.

    According to the CDC, MMWR March 24, 2006:

    Young infants, who can present with symptoms of apnea and bradycardia without cough, are at highest risk for death from pertussis (16,47,48). During 1980–2004, a total of 223 pertussis-related deaths in infants aged less than 4 months were reported to CDC (of 280 in all age groups) (48, CDC, unpublished data, 2005). Of the 100 pertussis-related deaths reported during 2000–2004, a total of 90 (90%) were among young infants aged less than 4 months and 76 (76%) were among infants aged less than 2 months (CDC, unpublished data, 2005).

    Since the first pertussis vaccination is usually not given until 2 months of age, these figures imply that at least 76% of the deaths reported between 2000-2004 occurred infants who were unvaccinated because of their age, and many of the remaining deaths occured in infants who were too young to have received more than one or two doses of the vaccine.

  47. #48 Erin
    August 8, 2008

    All this controversy about vaccinations makes parents so anxious about what to do with their children. Parents want to do the right thing and there is so much passion telling parents not to vaccinate and so much passion telling parents to do it. I can tell you as a parent and psychologist that I would get judged and criticized if I did not vaccinate. On the other hand, I’m judged because I do by other people. As a psychologist, I feel like I’m more educated on the topic than most parents, but I can’t help but doubt, whichever decision I made. Most parents feel like they don’t want their child to get polio, but they don’t want autism either! There is so much conflicting data out there.

  48. #49 HCN
    August 8, 2008

    Erin said “There is so much conflicting data out there”

    Please share the data that shows that the IPV is a cause of autism, and the same with DTaP and MMR. I have asked, and yet no one has produced real actual scientific documentation with the evidence. Obviously, with your training you have it!

  49. #50 Prometheus
    August 21, 2008

    Erin, as a psychologist you must know that you are under no obligation to reveal your children’s vaccination status to “other people”. It is privileged medical information and does not have to be made public.

    Of course, the school district, your children’s physicians and – on occasion – embassy visa staff may ask you to provide that information. You can refuse those requests as well, but they may not be able to provide you with the services (public school admission, optimum medical care, entry visas). If you do decide to provide them your children’s vaccination records, they are also required to keep that information confidential.

    Seriously, when someone asks me if my children are vaccinated, I usually reply as I would if the same person asked me about any of their other confidential medical information. In most cases, the proper answer is “That’s not really any of your business.”, or words to that effect.

    Just because friends, accquaintances and – on occasion – absolute strangers ask you if your children are vaccinate does not put you under any obligation to answer their intrusive question.

    If saying “It’s none of your business.” seems rude or inappropriate, you can try to deflect the question with one of your own. My personal favorite is to say, “Since we’re discussing personal medical matters, how much do you weigh?” This seems particularly effective at shutting down that line of inquiry.

    There is definitely a lot of conflicting information “out there” – and some of it is truly “out there”. On the other hand, the medical and scientific information published in journals is pretty clearly overwhelmingly in favor of the position that vaccines do not significantly contribute to the prevalence of autism.

    As a psychologist, you should be able to look up the relevant studies and read them. Maybe you could even try to explain what you find to your friends, family members and even patients who are confused by the “conflicting information” they find on the Internet.

    Prometheus

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