Respectful Insolence

Jenny McCarthy might have some competition

This is disturbing.

No, it’s not disturbing because it’s a story potentially about autism. It’s not even disturbing because it indicates that Jenny McCarthy might soon have some competition in the brain dead antivaccinationist autism mom competition. It’s disturbing because of who Jenny’s new competition might be:

Britney has a whole new problem on her hands to deal with. According to In Touch, she fears that her youngest son Jayden James may be autistic.

Family friends say he often seems to be off in his own little world, playing by himself, and he starts crying for no reason.

Britney and Kevin are in agreement to have Jayden get tested for Autism, which is a neurological disorder that affects communication skills.

We hope that that’s not the case, but it’s better to be safe than sorry!

Here’s hoping Jayden isn’t autistic. The last thing we need is the Britney and Jenny show saying dumb things about vaccines and autism. Britney’s already shown up at a Generation Rescue function. If her son turns out to be on the spectrum, does anyone want to take a guess how long it would take for her to be on Generation Rescue’s Board?

Comments

  1. #1 Will K.
    August 8, 2008

    An honest question: would the celeb-cred she brings to the table be enough to outweigh the anti-vax movement associating themselves with somebody who is popularly regarded as a catastrophic mess? Strategically, it might not be worth it.

    And I hope Britney’s son doesn’t have autism simply for his own sake. I’m sure his high-profile parents will make his life challenging enough

  2. #2 Colugo
    August 8, 2008

    All the more reason to be grateful to Amanda Peet for speaking out in favor of childhood vaccinations.
    http://wcbstv.com/topstories/amanda.peet.vaccinations.2.788534.html

    Also in anti-vax news, Erin Brockovich is against the HPV vaccine.
    http://www.brockovichblog.com/2008/08/gardasil.html

  3. #3 Phil
    August 8, 2008

    What really gets my goat is when “reporters” go anti-vax, because the public gets their news from them. As far as I am concerned, the more Brit advocates anti-vax the better for us.

  4. #4 Niobe
    August 8, 2008

    That’s not autism Britney, that’s FAS.

  5. #5 Dawn
    August 8, 2008

    You people are truly sick.

  6. #6 commenter
    August 8, 2008

    FAS or maternal drug abuse? What I wonder about is who will answer the questions about Jayden’s developmental history? Who among his mother’s retinue would know when he first walked, how old he was when he began to talk and how many words he can speak now? I would think that he’s been passed around between roadies, groupies and nannies since he was born.

    Britney: I thank he wuz 9 munths ode whun he firsted started to sat up by himseff.

    Kevin: No he could sit up himself when he was 3 months old.

    Britney: All ax Jenny, she knows whun a autistic kid is supposed to sat up by himseff. She knows how ta reevahv a damaged career with a autistic kid.

  7. #7 Britney in history
    August 8, 2008

    http://www.celebrity-babies.com/2005/08/britney_observe.html

    Reported drinking heavily when pregnant with Jayden.

    “I do think Britney means well. But letting her husband smoke around her, and possibly drinking ANY alcohol…if it’s true, she really needs to grow up.”

  8. #8 Britney in history
    August 8, 2008

    Sorry, that story was of her drinking when she was pregnant with the Preston.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2008/01/04/britney-spears-hospitalized-after-hostage-brituation-involving-her-two-kids/
    Here’s the story of the hostage situation with Britney drunk and Preston 1 year old.

  9. #9 Scary
    August 8, 2008

    “According to In Touch Weekly, it has been speculated by many that the reason Jayden has been kept hidden behind closed doors is because he allegedly has Fetal Alcohol Syndrome.

    The magazine quotes a source as saying, “Jayden is eight months old and can’t focus on anyone or anything. He’s slower than other babies and isn’t alert.””

    http://www.exposay.com/pictures-of-britneys-son-jayden-are-captured-in-public/v/10767/

  10. #10 brook
    August 8, 2008

    How’s this for a nightmare scenario: kiddo does have FAS or maternal drug abuse, I can easily imagine those around him denying that and going for the “guilt free” dx of autism. Look ma, my actions have no consequences.

    For the kid’s sake, I hope this has absolutely no basis in reality.

  11. #11 Andrew Dodds
    August 8, 2008

    Wow – who could have thought that a nearly-2-year-old would be ‘off in their own little world’ or ‘playing by themselves’ or ‘crying for no apparent reason’?

    Let me guess – next story ‘Shock – small child fails to immediately obey parents – are they out of control?’; ’2 year old dosen’t want to eat sprouts, possible eating disorder?’; ’2 year old’s painting of mum looks a complete mess – is Jayden going to be a natural real life painter?’

  12. #13 AnnR
    August 8, 2008

    I agree with “guilt free dx of autism to deflect any possibility of maternal culpability”

  13. #14 Jen
    August 8, 2008

    I hope for everyone’s sake that this isn’t true.

  14. #15 Martin
    August 8, 2008

    There are so many things to be cynical about here:

    Is it “fashionable” now for celeb children to have “issues”?
    Is it possible for a kid to be normal when its parents are so abnormal?
    Isn’t any damage likely to be the result of her recklessness during pregnancy?

    I just hope the kid is okay, and that he somehow manages to grow up to be well-adjusted in spite of seeing his Mum drunkenly parading her private parts on T.V. on a regular basis..

  15. #16 Freeman74
    August 8, 2008

    If he would turn out to be autistic (Which I hope he does not). I think it show that there is a stronger correlation between ignorant celebrities and autism than there is vaccinations and autism.

  16. #17 andrea
    August 8, 2008

    Who IS this Britney person? I mean, what is she [supposedly] famous for, or is she just one of those celebs who is famous for being famous?

    Poor kid; if they go the aforementioned “guilt free dx of autism to deflect any possibility of maternal culpability”, then the mother may transfer her own pregnancy “detoxing” needs (abstinence + treatment program) to the boy’s (woo “detoxing” to “cure” him).

    Are there any pix of the boy? Does he display the lack of philtrum that sometimes accompanies FAS?

  17. #18 Julie Stahlhut
    August 8, 2008

    Gaaaahhhh. I feel sorry for those two little boys. When Kevin Federline is the more responsible of your parents, you’re starting life with a built-in disadvantage, no matter how much money the folks have rolling in. And doesn’t it cause real developmental problems for kids when they don’t get consistent attention and stimulation in infancy? The Briterlines didn’t have enough focus to nurture a potted cactus, never mind two children.

    For little Jayden’s sake, I really hope that the rumors of autism and FAS are false. What a mess.

  18. #19 speedwell
    August 8, 2008

    I suppose it started with John Travolta’s son Jett, who is now a teenager. It’s always been rumored Jett is autistic, but since Scientology does not believe in autism (but DOES believe in aggressive, manipulative lawsuit abuse), John has apparently never sought therapy for Jett. In fact, he has fought viciously to quell the rumors and suppress the evidence. Still, he has got a tremendous amount of attention and sympathy from his fan base because of his son’s problems. It didn’t go unnoticed in Hollywood. Many of those people will stoop to anything to get attention.

  19. #20 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 8, 2008

    Is this really something the anti-vaxxers want to hang their hat on, if they are?

    Britney has a well established and reported history of being a suspect mother in the choices she makes. Including the alcohol and drug issues listed above who knows what effect her lifestyle alone would have? Abandonment, neglect, multiple caregivers, physical issues etc.. If it is indeed autism then who knows what the issue is. Medical Expert Britney Spears diagnosis of autism doesn’t really hold much water.

  20. #21 Joseph
    August 8, 2008

    It could be drug and alcohol use during pregnancy. But I would suggest another plausible hypothesis. There are studies that document an association between stress during pregnancy and autism.

  21. #22 Heather
    August 8, 2008

    Poor kid, he is most likely suffering the effects of emotional neglect with a mother like his. Her public behavior is so narcissistic and self-absorbed (is that redundant?), you have to wonder if she even casts a wayward glance at her kids in private. It would be sad if she could get a medical diagnosis for her son that would at once explain her neglect (“I was so depressed watching my beloved son slip away from me and couldn’t figure out why…that’s why I was so emotionally unstable…then I realized it started right after his MMR shot…”) and enable her to keep being the center of the media universe.

  22. #23 Militant Agnostic
    August 8, 2008

    I think would be an “own goal” for the antivaxers to get a celebrity who is now primarily famous for being a train wreck on their side.

    I agree with those that say she will probably play the anti-vax card to deflect blame away from FAS/Maternal Drug Use/ Neglect etc and to get media attention.

  23. #24 Pass the Buttar
    August 8, 2008

    Finally! A Generation Rescue spokesperson with more chins than JB.

  24. #25 Dianne
    August 8, 2008

    I certainly hope Jayden isn’t autistic. And Britney certainly isn’t the brightest or most responsible person in the world. However, is there any particular evidence that, if he is autistic, she’ll join McCarthy and the anti-vaxxers? Is there any reason to think that if the kid is autistic, Spears wouldn’t just her @#$@ together,get him proper therapy, and start talking about autism in sensible terms (probable genetic basis, no miracle cures but progress possible with therapy, etc)? Hey, stranger things have happened.

  25. #26 Patrick
    August 8, 2008

    Whatever the kids problem might be, it is what it is. All of the hoping for or against this DX and that DX is useless, lets just hope that he gets a proper diagnosis (if needed) and support. Though I doubt that there is proper support for many people with differences with the great (Nawt) system we have in the USA today.

  26. #27 Blake Stacey
    August 8, 2008

    Perhaps tangentially on-topic: quantum woo on Larry King!

  27. #28 Dan
    August 8, 2008

    Give me a frickin break, Jenny’s real competition can be found here.

  28. #29 IBY
    August 8, 2008

    Crap, that is bad. The last thing we need is another idiot celebrity swaying people through people’s emotional attachment to celebrities.

  29. #30 observer
    August 8, 2008

    @ andrea – There aren’t any good photos of Jayden’s face, but one of them looked to me like his philtrum is much wider than normal. A baby can have fetal alcohol effects without having all the classic signs, it depends on when the mother was drinking (and how much and her metabolism of the alcohol).

    @ Dianne “However, is there any particular evidence that, if he is autistic, she’ll join McCarthy and the anti-vaxxers?” Britney attended a crass Hollywood fundraiser for Generation Rescue a couple of weeks ago.

  30. #31 Maria
    August 8, 2008

    Wow..This article isnt to biased or one sided is it.

    Jenny McCarthy and briteny are SO FAR apart as for what know about autism and taking action for moms.

    If you havent noticed Jenny really thought about how she is portayed in the last few years…she speaks with intelligence and is really a great spokes person.

    Britney is not even close to Jenny and to compare her to jenny could only be the thoughts of someone who has no realtion to anyone with Autism.
    You must be related to Micheal Savage.

  31. #32 ozzy
    August 9, 2008

    “she speaks with intelligence and is really a great spokes person”

    You’re joking, right.

  32. #33 Louise
    August 9, 2008

    Wow… so much for compassion. I urge you all to research HCN’s comments after this one….What a heartless pig this person has become, huh?

    Hcn’s quote “What good is it if a cure for cancer melts your brain?” I guess the same as a vaccine that causes Autism, huh? None. Period.

  33. #34 anonimouse
    August 9, 2008

    I think Maria meant to say “speaks with insipidness and has the personality of dried bark”.

  34. #35 HCN
    August 9, 2008

    Louise said “Wow… so much for compassion. I urge you all to research HCN’s comments after this one….What a heartless pig this person has become, huh?”

    Explain please, and include a link to me being heartless. I want to know why trying to avoid my health impaired son from getting pertussis or other illnesses that could severely injure him is heartless (he also has hypertrophic cardiomyopathy). I had absolutely no intention of commenting on this thread until my ‘nym was brought just to call me names. I want the accusation explained in detail. I want to know why protecting my children with actual evidence is considered bad form.

    Then you continue “I guess the same as a vaccine that causes Autism, huh? None. Period.”

    All I ask is some evidence. Which vaccine causes autism? Where is it documented? Is it the ones with thimerosal or the MMR?

    Explain to me how posting this information is heartless:
    Numbers from http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/appdx-full-g.pdf

    This is for pertussis:
    Year____Cases____Deaths__Year____Cases____Deaths
    2000_____7867______ 12___1950___120718____1118
    2001_____7580______ 17___1951____68687_____951
    2002_____9771______ 18___1952____45030_____402
    2003____11647______ 11___1953____37129_____270
    2004____25827______ 27___1954____60886_____373
    2005____25616______ 39___1955____62786_____467
    2006____15632______ 16___1956____31732_____266
    Total__103940______140__________426968____3847

    The death figures for 2004 through 2006 are from this slide set:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/Slides/Pertussis10.ppt#9 … Slide 9. Of the 82 deaths from pertussis during 2004 through 2006, 69 were of infants under the age of three months, while the remaining 13 were older than three months.

    Now for tetanus:
    Year____Cases____Deaths__Year____Cases____Deaths
    2000_______35______ 5____1950_____486_____336
    2001_______37______ 5____1951_____506_____394
    2002_______25______ 5____1952_____484_____360
    2003_______20______ 4____1953_____506_____337
    2004_______34______ NA___1954_____524_____332
    2005_______27______ NA___1955_____462_____265
    2006_______41______ NA___1956_____468_____246
    Total_____219______19 or more____3436____2270

    Now for measles:
    Year____Cases____Deaths__Year____Cases____Deaths
    2000_______86______ 1____1950___319124____468
    2001______116______ 1____1951___530118____683
    2002_______44______ 0____1952___683077____618
    2003_______56______ 1____1953___449146____462
    2004_______37______ NA___1954___682720____518
    2005_______66______ NA___1955___555156____345
    2006_______55______ NA___1956___611936____530
    Total_____460______3 or more___3831277___3624

    Now for mumps (no data before 1960):
    Year____Cases____Deaths
    2000______338______ 2
    2001______266______ 0
    2002______270______ 1
    2003______231______ 0
    2004______258______ NA
    2005______314______ NA
    2006_____6584______ NA
    Total____8261______3 or more

    Total of cases of those four disease over the seven year period of 2000 though 2006 is 112880, with at least 165 deaths. This does not include the 16 cases of Congenital Rubella Syndrome listed in the table for the years 2000 through 2006.

    Now if we went your way and eliminated the DTaP and the MMR then we will go back to the numbers that are listed for the 1950s (the return of pertussis is already happening, and measles and mumps have returned to Japan and the UK, the USA is not far behind). The number of measles cases were in the millions for the seven year period fifty years ago, with deaths of over 3500. During the years 1950 to 1956 for the three diseases that there is data, the total cases were 4261681 with at least 9741 deaths. And I left out polio.

    So do we really want to go back to the “good ol’ days” of no DTaP or MMR vaccines? How is it heartless to want to avoid the level of death of disability that occurred just half a century?

  35. #36 hmmm
    August 9, 2008

    http://www.celebrity-gossip.net/celebrity_gallery/image_full/89436/

    Maybe the autism vaccine people are waiting for the current news about Britney to settle down before they start using her to bash vaccines. The big news today is about whether or not Quentin Tarantino has cast her in a remake of a movie not so wholesome movie called “Faster Pussycat Kill! Kill!” and what she did while out shopping.

  36. #37 Laser Potato
    August 10, 2008

    I know it’s off-topic, but I was looking through the anti-quackery posts and happened to notice that an anonytroll dropped this URL in “Another Clean Kill For Chelation”:
    http://www.mercola.com/townofallopath/index.htm
    The stupid, it BURRRRRRRNS!!!!
    Oh, and the site it’s from is every bit as insane. Some highlights:
    “Are Secret Vaccinations Killing Soldiers?”
    “Worry Increases Diabetes Risk”
    “Your Granite Countertops Could Be Killing You”
    “The EPA Doesn’t Care if You Drink Rocket Fuel”
    “Low Vitamin D Leads to Rheumatic Diseases”
    “The Dirty Truth About Plastic”
    “Your Sweat Ducts Act as Antennas for Electromagnetic Radiation”
    and on, and on, and on, until you think your head’s going to explode.

  37. #38 Louise
    August 10, 2008

    Actually HCN I called you heartless because it wasn’t too long ago that you were opposed to cancer treatment (if memory serves me correctly) being savage if it did more harm than good.

    Same rule of thumb applies to vaccines – only no longer in your eyes. Sad.

  38. #39 Louise
    August 10, 2008

    Awesome book to read by the way for anyone who is interested – The Virus and the Vaccine by Debbie Bookchin and Jim Shumacher.

  39. #40 HCN
    August 10, 2008

    I finally found that quote, it was on UnCommonDescent… a very strange and bizarre place ( http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/02/a_couple_of_more_cluesticks_on_dichloroa.php ). I am opposed to any treatment that would harm a person, treatments like coffee enemas, chelation, mega-vitamin treatment, hyperbaric oxygen tents, chemical castration with Lupron, bizarre nutrient-free diets and one and on… or allowing children to become infected with deadly diseases like measles and pertussis. (Did you understand the table I posted? It means that without vaccination the numbers of babies, elementary age kids, teenagers and adults who will die from pertussis, measles, mumps, and tetanus will go back up to hundreds per year.)

    If you have any real evidence that the DTaP or MMR vaccines cause autism or are more deadly than diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, mumps, measles or rubella please present that. Telling me to read a book is not sufficient. The evidence must come from a reliable source, well researched and peer reviewed. Not from journalists, lawyers or random webpages. Something like this:
    http://jco.ascopubs.org/cgi/content/full/24/26/4356

    So instead of calling me names, present the evidence. That is a more persuasive strategy to change my mind.

    Until then some reading suggestions for you:
    “Vaccine” by Arthur Allen
    “Vaccinated” by Paul Offit
    “Unstrange Minds” by Roy Grinker
    “Not Even Wrong” by Paul Collins

  40. #41 Louise
    August 10, 2008

    Actually HCN I urge you to do your own sleuthing. Let me ask you this (because I know that you have a conscience – unlike some here on this board)…why does the FDA completely ban over the counter products if they contain certain “harmful ingredients”? Yet, because these same “banned” ingredients are in vaccines, they are approved? Please research director of the FDA, stocks, pharmaceutical products. You will find that this person has a lot of money to lose. Then research every single ingredient in each vaccine. Compare them with what the FDA/EPA states is “safe”. I’m sure your jaw will drop. That is not to mention all of the ingredients that are in a vaccine that are not listed. Listen, I remember growing up – things are a lot different now – more violent, children are more damaged, etc. A lot has changed. Just please, please if anything – please do the research. This just isn’t funny anymore.

    http://vaers.hhs.gov/pdf/PackageInserts.pdf

    I didn’t mean to put you down, just remind you of what is important – people. That is exactly the vibe I got from you about your message in 2007. Hold onto that.

  41. #43 HCN
    August 10, 2008
  42. #44 Louise
    August 10, 2008

    Please forgive me, but what does Sharyl Attisson have to do with anything that I asked of you? I’m not talking about reporters, blogs, he said/she said, – nothing of the sort. Just please read my previous post. Thanks!

  43. #45 HCN
    August 10, 2008

    Try actually clicking on the link and read the comments, I did not feel like repeating myself.

    But since you are incapable of doing that:
    And do we need to repeat that raw VAERS data is also not real data. It is self-selected data, that even a UK citizen posted that his daughter was turned into Wonder Woman:
    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=342

  44. #46 HCN
    August 10, 2008

    If you continued on you would have read:
    More on VAERS:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/08/woo_and_antivaccinationism_in_mainstream.php#comment-1035329 … if you look upthread you will see I lay out an example of a report that would never get into VAERS if the only folks who could report were qualified investigators. I did not pull out of my head, it comes from a table in this paper:
    http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/153/12/1279 … “34 wk gestation, apnea of prematurity, feeding problems of prematurity; hospitalized 18 d after birth, discharge weight 2100 g; co-slept with mother on couch, found on back on floor beside couch” … “Lungs: scattered acute intra-alveolar hemorrhage; cerebellum: persistent external granular cell layer” (being an engineer, I have no idea what that last bit means, but I am pretty sure the vaccine did not cause the baby to end up on the floor).

    Posted by: HCN | August 6, 2008 6:27 PM

    I tried to look at the VAERS data for MMR, but just couldn’t manage it for long – it hurt my brain. As HCN says, it is a largely a record of pure anecdote and coincidence, with a huge dollop of confirmation bias.

    First case – 16 year old girl getting MMR booster developed hyperventilation which precipitated a seizure after vaccination. Linked to vaccine? – presumably, but teenage girl could have hyperventilated after almost any psychological or physiological insult with the same end result.

    Second case: A 3.3 yr old (or is it 15 month old? – they can’t seem to decide) who has already had measles previously and been left with recurrent ear infections (funny that – I thought measles was entirely harmless?) gets an MMR. Not unreasonably, in view of the recent recurrent ear infections, the parents note the child is a bit deaf. Obviously this is the fault of the vaccine, and not the post-measles otitis.

    Is this the best stuff you can come up with? Sure, quite a number of the subsequent reported “reactions” do seem to bear some relationship to vaccine administration, but most of them are recognised vaccine reactions such as fever and aches (symptoms that actually pale into insignificance compared to a full blooded attack of measles itself, which every child ever born in the US would get if there were no vaccination).

    This would cause 400 thousand hospitalisations every year, and 800 deaths.

    Posted by: DT | August 6, 2008 7:38 PM

  45. #47 Louise
    August 10, 2008

    I see a HUGE problem with this entire blog….not one person has done their own research. I see this gibber gabber about the CDC’s statistics, medical journal studies, and on and on and on….has anyone everyone been brave enough to challenge this? If I see my neighbor’s child on video – normal, healthy, meeting all milestones, and then receives certain vaccines – Badda bing – Autism sets in….and I hear this time and time again, I would think ONE person would be bold enough to pursue the connection. I don’t know, but I thought that Science WAS about infinite possibilites – not hearing about someone else’s “theories” or reported “studies”? Are you guys even for real? What happened to this generation of minds?

  46. #48 HCN
    August 10, 2008

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/03/the_geiers_go_dumpsterdiving_y_1.php … “The bottom line is that the VAERS database is not a reliable source to determine autism prevalence or incidence, period. It’s too prone to being affected by scares, like the recent hype over mercury supposedly causing autism, and even outright manipulation, and its entries aren’t even examined by medical professionals in sufficient detail to determine whether adverse events reported were or could be reasonably inferred to have resulted from vaccines.”

    and from http://vaers.hhs.gov/info.htm .. “VAERS data contains coincidental events and those truly caused by vaccines.” and “VAERS data are derived from a passive surveillance system and represent unverified reports of health events, both minor and serious, that occur after vaccination.”

    There is a word in that which you might need a definition for: unverified

    From Dictionary.com “lacking proof or substantiation”

    Now, please, please, pretty please… get me real VERIFIED scientific evidence that the DTaP and MMR vaccines are worse than diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, mumps and rubella. Thank you.

  47. #49 Louise
    August 10, 2008

    Did you know that there were only less than 800 babies studied during this trial and over 100 died? Oh well, the FDA approved it anyways and are waiting on the public’s reaction (VAERS). Well, if doctor’s never see the “connection”, I guess the public is just shit out of luck.

    http://tinyurl.com/5dkolj

  48. #50 Louise
    August 10, 2008

    HCN: Please don’t miss my previous post. I could care less about the scientific misconstrued data that you speak of. Again, please read my request that I posted earlier…

    Actually HCN I urge you to do your own sleuthing. Let me ask you this (because I know that you have a conscience – unlike some here on this board)…why does the FDA completely ban over the counter products if they contain certain “harmful ingredients”? Yet, because these same “banned” ingredients are in vaccines, they are approved? Please research director of the FDA, stocks, pharmaceutical products. You will find that this person has a lot of money to lose. Then research every single ingredient in each vaccine. Compare them with what the FDA/EPA states is “safe”. I’m sure your jaw will drop. That is not to mention all of the ingredients that are in a vaccine that are not listed. Listen, I remember growing up – things are a lot different now – more violent, children are more damaged, etc. A lot has changed. Just please, please if anything – please do the research. This just isn’t funny anymore.

    http://vaers.hhs.gov/pdf/PackageInserts.pdf

    I didn’t mean to put you down, just remind you of what is important – people. That is exactly the vibe I got from you about your message in 2007. Hold onto that.

    Posted by: Louise | August 10, 2008 9:28 PM

  49. #51 HCN
    August 10, 2008

    Louise whined ” see a HUGE problem with this entire blog….not one person has done their own research.”

    Uh huh… uh, yeah… all I see from you is stuff you read on anti-vax websites. I have gone and gotten real research (like the Journal of Clinical Oncology link I included) , and even typed in the table I posted above.

    Here is some more:
    http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/3/302
    and
    http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/296/14/1757

    Then you whined some more with “has anyone everyone been brave enough to challenge this” … actually, yes… in the Autism Omnibus test trials. Out of about 5000 lawsuits, they had trouble coming up with the nine test cases.

    Whining some more “If I see my neighbor’s child on video – normal, healthy, meeting all milestones, and then receives certain vaccines – Badda bing – Autism sets in….and I hear this time and time again, I would think ONE person would be bold enough to pursue the connection.”

    Well the plural of anecdotes is NOT data. And yes, this has been pursued quite often:
    Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants after Receipt of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
    Authors: Pichichero ME, Gentile A, Giglio N, et al
    Source: Pediatrics, February 2008; 121(2) e208-214

    Mercury, Vaccines, And Autism: One Controversy, Three Histories
    Author: Baker JP
    Source: American Journal of Public Health, February 2008;98(2): 244-253

    Continuing Increases in Autism Reported to California’s Developmental Services System: Mercury in Retrograde
    Authors: Schechter R, Grether JK
    Source: Arch Gen Psychiatry, January 2008; 65(1):19-24

    MMR-Vaccine and Regression in Autism Spectrum Disorders: Negative Results Presented from Japan
    Authors: Uchiyama T, Kurosawa M, Inaba Y
    Source: J Autism Dev Disord, February 2007; 37(2):210-217

    Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links with Immunizations
    Authors: Fombonne E, Zakarian R, Bennett A, Meng L, McLean-Heywood D
    Source: Pediatrics, July 2006, Vol. 118(1):e139-e150

    Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System Reporting Source: A Possible Source of Bias in Longitudinal Studies
    Authors: Goodman MJ, Nordin J
    Source: Pediatrics, February 2006, Vol. 117(2):387-390

    The Incidence of Autism in Olmsted County, Minnesota, 1976-1997
    Authors: Barbaresi WJ, Katusic SK, Colligan RC, Weaver AL, Jacobsen SJ
    Source: Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine, January 2005, Vol. 159(1):37-44

    No Effect of MMR Withdrawal on the Incidence of Autism: A Total Population Study
    Authors: Honda H, Shimizu Y, Rutter M
    Source: Journal of Child Psychology & Psychiatry, Online Early Release

    MMR Vaccination and Pervasive Developmental Disorders: A Case-Control Study
    Authors: Smeeth L, Cook C, Fombonne E, Heavey L, Rodrigues LC, Smith PG, Hall AJ
    Source: Lancet, September 11, 2004, Vol. 364(9438):963-9

    Relationship Between MMR Vaccine and Autism
    Authors: Klein KC, Diehl EB
    Source: The Annals of Pharmacotherapy, July-August 2004, Vol. 38(7-8):1297-1300

    Vaccine Risk Perception Among Reporters of Autism after Vaccination: Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System 1990-2001
    Authors: Woo EJ, Ball R, Bostrom A, et al.
    Source: American Journal of Public Health

    MMR Vaccine and Autism: An Update of the Scientific Evidence
    Authors: DeStefano F, Thompson WW
    Source: Expert Review of Vaccines, February 2004, Vol. 3(1):19-22

    Age at First Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination in Children with Autism and School-Matched Control Subjects: A Population-Based Study in Metropolitan Atlanta
    Authors: DeStefano F, Bhasin TK, Thompson WW, Yeargin-Allsopp M, Boyle C
    Source: Pediatrics, February 2004, Vol. 113(2):259-266

    MMR Vaccination and Autism: What Is the Evidence for a Causal Association?
    Authors: Madsen KM, Vestergaard M
    Source: Drug Safety, 2004, Vol. 27(12):831-840

    Association Between Thimerosal-Containing Vaccine and Autism
    Authors: Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M
    Source: Journal of the American Medical Association, October 1, 2003, Vol. 290(13):1763-6

    Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence from Danish Population-Based Data
    Authors: Madsen KM, Lauritsen MB, Pedersen CB, et al
    Source: Pediatrics, Sept. 2003, Vol. 112(3 Pt 1):604-606

    Autism and Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines. Lack of Consistent Evidence for an Association
    Authors: Stehr-Green P, Tull P, Stellfeld M, Mortenson PB, Simpson D
    Source: American Journal of Preventive Medicine, August 2003, Vol. 25(2):101-6

    Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccine and the Development of Autism
    Author: Miller E
    Source: Seminars in Pediatric Infectious Diseases, July 2003, Vol. 14(3):199-206

    Thimerosal and Autism?
    Authors: Nelson KB, Bauman ML
    Source: Pediatrics, March 2003, Vol. 111(3):674-9

    and there is more…

    Okay, what kind of real VERIFIED scientific evidence do you have that links autism with vaccines?

  50. #52 HCN
    August 10, 2008

    Louise then verified she has not read my comments, nor clicked on any links about VAERS by repeating “This just isn’t funny anymore.

    http://vaers.hhs.gov/pdf/PackageInserts.pdf

    You, my dear lady, are not capable of reading, being educated nor of understanding anything that has any science. You are on the same intellectual level as the Crazy Sprinkler Lady who thought the rainbows in her sprinkler were caused by something terrible put into the water:
    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/08/some_things_that_might_appeal.php

    Uou say it is “not funny anymore”, your total lack of intellectual rigor is hilarious.

  51. #53 HCN
    August 10, 2008

    Should anyone care… the tinyurl that Louise linked to was:
    http://vaccineawakening.blogspot.com/2008/02/fda-panel-approves-rotarix-safety-11-1.html

    A blog of the infamous Barbara Loe Fisher, who seems to only want to use certain bits of data, and has a way with statistics that would would curl the hair of any good math teacher. She is a closed minded zealot, just like Louise.

  52. #54 HCN
    August 11, 2008

    You want to talk about who is a “heartless pig”? I have only asked for VERIFIABLE scientific evidence on the DTaP and MMR vaccines. So what does Louise post with a TinyURL, a Barbara Loe Fisher screed on how one of their National Vaccine (mis)Information Center members was the lone dissenting vote on a newer rotavirus vaccine.

    Ah, gee… thanks.

    Obviously Louise has cyberstalked me enough to find a quote from long ago on a silly blog, so she should know that my oldest son had his last seizure and trip by ambulance to the emergency department during a nasty gastrointestinal bug that made him dehydrated, which may or may not have been a rotavirus (though the rivers of diarrhea with the multiple diapers was a bit clue). So she decided to let me know that NVIC made sure another rotavirus vaccine was voted against.

    Earlier she said “If I see my neighbor’s child on video – normal, healthy, meeting all milestones, and then receives certain vaccines – Badda bing – Autism sets in….”

    But not a peep about the 165+ people who died from pertussis, tetanus, measles and mumps in the USA. Nor of the several people who became disabled. During the mumps outbreak in the American Midwest in 2006 at least four people lost their hearing (mumps used to be the primary cause of post lingual deafness before the vaccine was approved in 1968):
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5520a4.htm
    “However, complications have included 27 reports of orchitis, 11 meningitis, four encephalitis, four deafness, and one each of oophoritis, mastitis, pancreatitis, and unspecified complications.”

    Louise, are you of the ilk that thinks it is better to be dead than autistic? That time spent in a hospital hooked up to IV fluids and a respirator is better than being autistic? Or the gradual neurological deterioration and eventual death from subacute sclerosing panencephalitis caused by a measles infection is better than autism? Or the severe muscles spasms with a 50% chance of death from tetanus is better than autism?

    Or are you of the ilk that believes only children who can survive measles, mumps, tetanus, and pertussis deserve to live. Children like my son with genetic conditions like hypertrophic cardiomyopathy are better off dead. The term for that kind of thought is “eugenics”. An interesting thing about that, have you heard of the book and movie “Cheaper by the Dozen”. Well, it is a family of what was a dozen surviving children by a pair of very smart people, who actually were a bit into eugenics (king of like Henry Ford, oh… he is the founder of the Ford Motor Company, they make cars). It turns out that photos of their family went from 12 kids to only 11 kids… a daughter died from diphtheria. Read:
    http://www.amazon.com/Making-Time-Lillian-Gilbreth-Cheaper/dp/1555536522/

  53. #55 Cheaper by the Dozen fan
    August 11, 2008

    HCN, Thank you for that recommendation. I read “Cheaper by the Dozen” when I was about 13 years old. I still remember parts of it. But I didn’t know they had a child that died.

    This is how it is described in the book you linked to:

    Anne and Mary came down with a mild fever, headaches, and sore throats. The doctor diagnosed diphtheria, which was and is a terrible disease. Although the majority of sufferers recover, between 5 and 10 percent of cases are fatal. Diphtheria is a horrible cause of death; a thick membrane grows in the throat and the victim can choke to death. At the same time toxins in the bloodstream injure the heart, nervous system, or other organs, which cease functioning. Although, no antibiotics were available to kill the bacteria until after World War II, and antitoxin was readily available and, if all else failed, a tracheotomy was sometimes performed to allow a patient to breathe. Lillian had had diphtheria as a child and so assumed (incorrectly) that she was unlikely to contract it a second time. She went into quarantine with the children while Frank paced up and down outside the door. Anne had a mild case and soon recovered, but five-year old Mary seemed unable to fight the infection. Doctors, nurses and Lillian worked in vain: Mary became weaker. Finally in desperation Frank performed an emergency tracheotomy. It failed and Mary died…

    “Making Time : Lillian Moller Gilbreth – a life beyond “Cheaper by the Dozen” by Jane Lancaster.

    Why is it that people are not afraid of the potent neuro-toxins produced by a diphtheria infection? Do they think the some magic will protect unvaxed children from the effects of diphtheria if they encounter it?

  54. #56 Phoenix Woman
    August 11, 2008

    HCN: Thank you for all of those links.

    Do you have a website or blog? If so, would it be too much trouble to copy all of that info to it? I promise to put you in my sidebar if you do. Thanks!

  55. #57 HCN
    August 11, 2008

    Thank you, but nope, too lazy. I have a page on deviantart for some of my sewn creations, but I only update it once every three to six months (and I am about to load up my embroidery card with some designs I edited this weekend).

    If you look, most of the links are this blog and and leftbrainrightbrain blog, plus papers I find through PubMed. You are free to copy the table I created.

  56. #58 anonimouse
    August 12, 2008

    Anyone who would recommend Virus and the Vaccine as anything more than a decent paperweight or drink coaster is not worth my time.

  57. #59 HCN
    August 12, 2008

    I did not mention it, but if you Google a book title and one of the webpages that comes up pushing the book is by “Mercola”, one can pretty much assume it is not worth the paper it is printed on.

    Mercola cannot even make up his mind on what causes autism! See:
    http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/mercola.htm

  58. #60 Louise
    August 12, 2008

    Thank you HCN for this information. Unlike you, I will be taking the time to research why your information conflicts with the information that I have – though all information is from the same sources?

    Before I begin my research though HCN, have you actually read all of this information? Do you know if the information reveals whether or not the parents of the Autistic children were vaccinated (this would definitely shed more light on the subject and prevent me from wasting my time looking at it)?

  59. #61 Dawn
    August 12, 2008

    HCN: I think you need to reevaluate where you get your information. Check out the following link.

    Scroll down to CNS, Tripedia. Gee, Autism is listed as an adverse reaction. How about them apples.

    http://tinyurl.com/55zesx

  60. #62 Laser Potato
    August 12, 2008

    ….aaaaand Louise commits Doggerel #46: “Don’t Knock [Woo] Before You Try It!”

  61. #63 HCN
    August 12, 2008

    Dawn lists a commercial website with ads for scam autism sites like Age of Autism, and some questionable sites for weight loss and blood pressure control. I do not consider it a credible source. I have still not seen good VERIFIABLE scientific evidence that the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis.

    Sorry, Louise, I actually clicked on your links and found them lacking in scientific rigor. But you are not one to talk about “not clicking on links”, since after showing you extensively why VAERS is just raw data and not VERIFIED you still insisted on posting a link to it as “proof”.

    By the way, what does dragging me into all of this have to do with Britney Spears?

    (side note: I realized giving my children music lessons was a good thing when several years ago my two younger kids asked me to switch from Radio Disney to some other station because they hated listening to Spears sing.)

  62. #64 Dawn
    August 12, 2008

    O.k. HCN: Directly from the source (the maker of the product). I guess if you would take any one of these diseases over the actual side effects listed (such as Autism or death or encephalitis), then you must not have any children yet. Post marketing reports are simply VAERS and we all know that VAERS is a joke.

    Go to page 11 – the paragraph directly above Reporting of Adverse Events.

    http://tinyurl.com/64jczb

    I am happy to say that my son’s pediatrician is so amazed by what she has witnessed over the years with children that she is now researching vaccines extensively…..I have a funny feeling that she will be leaving her allopathic practice altogether, like many other doctors.

  63. #65 HCN
    August 12, 2008

    The Vitamin Shop is a commercial website, not VERIFIABLE scientific evidence.

    And yet on page 11 it says “Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine.”

    So it is still not VERIFIABLE evidence that the DTaP is worse than pertussis, tetanus and diphtheria.

    About your doctor and her stories — the plural of anecdote is NOT data.

  64. #66 Laser Potato
    August 12, 2008

    The Vitamin Shop????!!! Are you kidding me???
    If The Vitamin Shop is evidence, then the fry cook at the local burger joint is evidence too.

  65. #67 Thomas D. Taylor
    August 12, 2008

    There are many GOOD ways to inform people and bring attention to autism.

    Midnight In Chicago does it with their Autism Spectrum Podcasts at http://www.mic.mypodcast.com where people can hear the “Autism and Vaccines: Parts I & II” podcasts.

    The podcasts quote sources which may be much more accurate than Ms. McCarthy’s opinion and Ms.Spears’ suppositions.

    MIC also has the “Countdown to Midnight” CD that sends proceeds to reputable autism charities.

    Spread the word. It is important we get the FACTS out on autism.

  66. #68 Lucas McCarty
    August 12, 2008

    In the two years since the UK National Autistic Society started it’s Think Differently campaign, I’ve become more personally affected by those pushing the Autism = vaccines rubbish.

    Last year, phase two of Think Differently launched, it aimed to highlight the difficulties faced by Autistic adults like myself, who find accessing help we need to be utterly impossible because everyone seems to think Autistic adults are rare and must be in care homes, thanks also in part to those promoting Autism therapies on the basis that Autistics are naturally doomed to institutionalisation if they do not recieve a certain kind of therapy. The NAS asked the government to comission a study about exactly how many Autistic adults there are in the UK and the services they are recieving. The government has now said they will, but wether it happens remains to be seen.

    At the same time, anti-vaccine groups have threatened all the progress made in phase 2; because a fundamental point to their case is the claim that Autism rates sky-rocketed when certain vaccines were introduced, or when the vaccine schedule increased or certain ingredients were added, etc. They almost wholly dismiss the evidence-based explaination that diagnostic criteria improved, new Autistic spectrum conditions were recognised and there was better recognition in vital service areas. This requires them to insist on an important corollary to it: there are vastly more Autistic children than there are old Autistic adults. This is the complete opposite of the truth and the basis for Think Differently requesting a study on services for Autistic adults.

    MY welfare, service prospects and outcome is put to the torch by their idiocy!

  67. #69 Laser Potato
    August 12, 2008

    Oh, but why stop there?
    The gas station down the street is an unbiased source of peer-reveiewed data!
    My neighbor’s cat is an unbiased source of peer-reveiewed data!
    That rotten watermelon in the backyard is an unbiased source of peer-reveiewed data!
    But actual, reputable medical journals? Oh, goodness no.

  68. #70 Dawn
    August 12, 2008

    If the maker of the product states that it CAN cause Autism – are you guys really that STUPID? This is the MOST common DTaP vaccine given to babies at 2, 4, and 6 mo. old. Is it a coincidence that all of a sudden this year we are told that researchers may now identify Autism in babies as young as 9 mo? By then they would have already had what 3 rounds of this vaccine?

    Keep believing your “good vaccine theory”. It will be put to the test real soon when this phony pandemic hits. We will see who is left standing when it is over – the vaccinated or unvaccinated.

  69. #71 Dawn
    August 12, 2008

    Actually Laser Potato the link that got your panties or tighty whities in a bunch was a link supplied by Health & Human Services for vaccine information on Tripedia. I guess they don’t know what they are talking about either??

    Go to page 11 – the paragraph directly above Reporting of Adverse Events.

    http://tinyurl.com/64jczb

    Duh??

  70. #72 HCN
    August 12, 2008

    I made an error it is the “vaccineshop”… and I quoted page 11 of that page, where it explains that the reports have NOT been verified. If you missed it the first time, here it is again:
    “Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine.”

    To translate (because it is obvious you did not understand it): even though the list preceding that paragraph was reported as being caused by the vaccine, they were not proven and not verified.

    Now please show us real VERIFIABLE evidence that the DTaP vaccine is worst than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis. Something where it shows real numbers of incidence with actual evidence of causation, not coincidence. Something on par with what I posted above (and here is is again, since you missed it):
    his is for pertussis:
    Year____Cases____Deaths__Year____Cases____Deaths
    2000_____7867______ 12___1950___120718____1118
    2001_____7580______ 17___1951____68687_____951
    2002_____9771______ 18___1952____45030_____402
    2003____11647______ 11___1953____37129_____270
    2004____25827______ 27___1954____60886_____373
    2005____25616______ 39___1955____62786_____467
    2006____15632______ 16___1956____31732_____266
    Total__103940______140__________426968____3847

    The death figures for 2004 through 2006 are from this slide set:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/Slides/Pertussis10.ppt#9 … Slide 9. Of the 82 deaths from pertussis during 2004 through 2006, 69 were of infants under the age of three months, while the remaining 13 were older than three months. (which makes Olmsted’s suggestion that vaccines should be withheld until age two, a form of “survival of the fittest” type of eugenics that is morally bankrupt)

    If I wanted I could add diphtheria. There was one case in 2003 that ended in death. But what is very illustrative of what happens if we stopped using the DTaP is what happened after the former Soviet Union broke up (and there is now a full out war there now between Russia and Georgia), and there was a disruption of medical services:
    http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol4no4/vitek.htm … “In the 1990s, a massive epidemic throughout the Newly Independent States of the former Soviet Union marked the reemergence of epidemic diphtheria in industrialized countries. Diphtheria had been well controlled in the Soviet Union for more than 2 decades after universal childhood immunization was initiated in the late 1950s (Figure 1). Although all of the Newly Independent States were affected, three quarters of the more than 140,000 cases (Table 1) and two thirds of the more than 4,000 deaths reported since 1990 (1-3) were reported by the Russian Federation.”

  71. #73 HCN
    August 12, 2008

    Now you might answer which of these have a higher chance of causing neurological damage learning disabilities:

    1) Drinking alcohol while pregnant (like what Ms. Spears confessed to doing)

    2) Smoking (like what Ms. McCarthy was known to do.

    3) Neo-natal seizures (like what my son had, this was before any kind vaccine, he turns 20 next month)

    4) Prematurity, like at least 6 weeks too early (my sister was two months premature, she was pretty normal, just a typical annoying littles sister who was lactose intolerant, and who failed college because of too much partying, but who is now a store manager the person who got her second husband on a firm financial footing… but that is just my anecdote)

    5) Being exposed to diseases like rubella, measles or chicken pox while pregnant

    6) preeclampsia while pregnant (before my son was born a mom and baby died at a “birthing center” because they did not catch or take care of the rising blood pressure soon enough!)

    7) Rh disease in the newborn

    8) the DTaP vaccine

    Please make sure to back up your answer with something like this:
    http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/3/302

  72. #74 Dawn
    August 12, 2008

    Honestly HNC, I do not believe your stats. They are just full of missing info – that cannot be answered by YOU or ME obviously. The fact that I find so much data that conflicts with other studies (in the same journals too??)- sets off warning bells in my mind.

    I mean, what is your solution? Give the child hundreds of vaccines on the day they are born? The immune system is a very complex system and the medical field has yet to figure it out. Were you even aware that the brain has its own immune system? Most doctors do not even know this either. Do you even know what happens to it during/after vaccination? Probably not.

    I’m sorry, but my child WAS seriously injured by his vaccines last year and I am very fortunate that he lived through it. It will be a cold day in hell before I am forced to sacrifice my family for the sake of medicine or for this ridiculous unfounded & totally insane herd immunity campaign.

    Like I said, we shall see just who survives this pandemic…the vaccinated or unvaccinated. Researchers are already estimating what 20-50 million deaths? Funny, how do you create a vaccine for this bird brain flu that is not even a pandemic yet? Hmmm…

  73. #75 HCN
    August 12, 2008

    Dawn said “I’m sorry, but my child WAS seriously injured by his vaccines last year and I am very fortunate that he lived through it. ”

    So you can honestly say that the prematurity and preeclampsia had nothing to do with it. So be it.

    You may think my statistics are flawed, but at least I have some to actually present, and they have been verified (reports from real medical personnel, not parents prompted by lawyers).

    Still waiting for the actual VERIFIABLE evidence that the DTaP is worse than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis …

    … AND …

    Why was I specifically brought up on this post about the idiot parenting of Britney Spears?

  74. #76 Dawn
    August 12, 2008

    Well, that link you gave is full of shit as far as CRS cases are concerned. Don’t believe me? Check out the CDC’s MMWR dated October 25, 1996

    It gives a COMPLETE account of all CRS cases from 1966-1980

    If the vaccine came out in 1969, you are telling me that there were 20,000 cases of CRS in 1964-1965…HOW CAN IT BE THAT THE CDC REPORTED ONLY 11 CASES THE FOLLOWING YEAR IN 1966 (3 WHOLE YEARS BEFORE THE VACCINE CAME OUT)???!! What gives? 20,000 down to 11 in one year with no vaccine involved for another 3 years? Please!! Lies, lies, lies – at least people like you believe them though. You cannot even be bothered checking it out further either. Quite sad.

    By the way, I was given the rubella vaccine last year while suffering from SEVERE PREECLAMPSIA. I had to be rushed back to the hospital the next morning – it was the damn vaccine that almost killed me because I felt funny within 1-2 hrs after administration. It caused my blood pressure to jump to 182/128. So was my hearing loss worth it based on this bullshit? NO!

    So, do I believe anything else on that link if one lie has already been told? No.

  75. #77 HCN
    August 13, 2008

    Dawn said “Check out the CDC’s MMWR dated October 25, 1996″

    Linky?

    So you are blaming the DTaP given several weeks AFTER the preemclampsia?

    Weird.

  76. #78 ozzy
    August 13, 2008

    Oh Dawn, if you only took the time to read the whole package insert you would have run into this statement:

    “Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine…”

    I thought I was the one who was unable to read…

  77. #79 ozzy
    August 13, 2008

    Dawn,

    Here’s the link to your MMW report: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/wk/mm4542.pdf

    Please tell us on what page your “fact” appears on.

  78. #80 franklin
    August 13, 2008

    Dawn,

    How do you conclude that the CDC data give “a COMPLETE account of all CRS (congenital rubella syndrome) cases from 1966-1980)”?

    This seems like an unwarranted conclusion given that “rubella and CRS became notifiable diseases in the United States in 1966 and 1969, respectively.”

  79. #81 HCN
    August 13, 2008

    By the way, Dawn, there have been lots of mothers who had preeclampsia and premature births without a rubella vaccine. What makes you think you are so special and have to blame a vaccine that has been given to thousands of women without a problem? Just because you got the vaccine while you had high blood pressure?

    Anyway, you need to work harder to find a connection.

    Especially for a connection to the DTaP vaccine. I’m still waiting for the actual VERIFIABLE evidence it is worse than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis.

  80. #82 HCN
    August 13, 2008

    Dawn there are two reasons to use TinyURL:

    1) The link is too long to fit in the format, which is not really a problem with this blog.

    2) You are embarrassed by the link and do not want folks to know what the URL you are using for “proof”.

    You seem a bit shy about any of the sources you use, perhaps because you think you think you will be embarrassed by the URL. That is silly, because if we click on the link we will find out what it is. Ozzy and I have even posted snippets of the the link you posted on TinyURL.

    Now, please try harder to show that the DTaP vaccine is worse than diphtheria (which killed multiple thousands in the form USSR states when the system to provide vaccines was interrupted), pertussis (which still kills more than a dozen infants in the USA each year), and tetanus (a disease for which there is not herd immunity, it has actually been passed through rose thorn pricks and bug bites!). I know I have asked this repeatedly, but you have yet to answer the question with real VERIFIABLE scientific data. Please try harder. Thank you.

  81. #83 clinteas
    August 13, 2008

    Interesting collection of lunatics on this blog,WOW !

    I just wanted to say that I find it a bit cheap to say Britney Spears would join the antivax crowd if her son was found to be autistic.
    Dont like her if you want Orac,call her stupid or an alcoholic if you must,but at least give her the benefit of the doubt,not to join that club of deluded fools .

  82. #84 MH
    August 13, 2008

    Clinteas, as Observer remarked up-thread:

    “Britney attended a crass Hollywood fundraiser for Generation Rescue a couple of weeks ago”

    Here’s the story.

  83. #85 Phoenix Woman
    August 13, 2008

    Heh! Beat me to it, MH. If people would only read posts before setting fingers to keyboards…

  84. #86 Phoenix Woman
    August 13, 2008

    Is this really something the anti-vaxxers want to hang their hat on, if they are?

    Britney has a well established and reported history of being a suspect mother in the choices she makes.

    Yeah, and Jenny McCarthy isn’t exactly most folks’ idea of a model citizen, either.

    By the way, Dawn, preeclampsia and eclampsia have been connected to women getting pregnant for the first time, or very early or late in their reproductive careers. It’s also been found that the condition is more likely to occur if the woman is either a virgin beforehand or with a brand new sexual partner when she gets pregnant. Eclampsia has also been shown to harm the fetal brain through oxygen deprivation.

    Moral of the story: The traditional recipe for women’s sexuality — to be a virgin before marriage, then to get knocked up on the wedding night — is harmful, if not outright deadly, to both women and their unborn children.

  85. #87 Mary Parsons
    August 13, 2008

    Dawn wrote:

    I mean, what is your solution? Give the child hundreds of vaccines on the day they are born?

    Strawman – and one solution might be something like the current vaccine schedule?

    As for CRS and rubella, I cited the striking UK stats in another thread. I suspect that it is obvious why you are not alluding to those. Hint, if even Dr Gordon has abandoned you then this is well and truly not a good example for you to use.

    PS – not vastly interested but I don’t know how you can call something a phony pandemic at one moment and then come out with the unpleasantness of ‘let’s see who will be left standing – the vaccinated or the unvaccinated’ the next.

  86. #88 Dawn
    August 14, 2008

    HCN stated:

    By the way, Dawn, there have been lots of mothers who had preeclampsia and premature births without a rubella vaccine. What makes you think you are so special and have to blame a vaccine that has been given to thousands of women without a problem? Just because you got the vaccine while you had high blood pressure?

    I reply: HCN, I was suffering from Severe Preeclampsia BEFORE I received the rubella vaccine. I relapsed AFTER the shot. If you knew anything about preeclampsia (which according to your post you don’t), you would know that it is a complex disorder which affects multiple systems – not just your blood pressure. In hindsight, knowing that this type of condition (more often than not), is caused by environmental toxins – common sense tells me that you don’t shoot the person up with more toxins (by a vaccine) if their body is having difficulty expelling the toxins to begin with. The vaccine manufacturer also advises the physician NOT to administer the product to anyone more than moderately ill. I was extremely ill.

    Also, I think you had better locate a hard copy of the MMWR that I gave earlier. Apparently, the data was altered online (the link that you gave me), for whatever reason. Gee, WHO would do such a thing? Why would anyone have to alter previously reported statistics?

    I do understand however, how you can be blindly led in the pro-vaccine movement. Your child was born in 1988 – before the big jump in the number of shots given. When you are someday given grandchildren though, I do hope that you have enough sense to research the vaccine issue further though and not place all of your faith in studies conducted by the maker of the products. Vaccines are nowhere near what they used to be. They are far more dangerous and damaging these days.

  87. #89 Keenacat
    August 14, 2008

    >> They are far more dangerous and damaging these days.

    Sources, please… What exacly do you think has changed in vaccines since the good old days to make the recent ones so dangerous and damaging in comparison?
    “They” even removed evil mercury from most of the vaccines (since mercury has been the main punching bag for the Pro-infectious-diseases-movement).

    (Excuse me from bad wording, I’m german and I don’t come to use my english skills too often.)

  88. #90 Dawn
    August 14, 2008

    Removed mercury? You’ve got a lot to learn. I guess you can start by reading the vaccine package inserts which claim that no mercury has “been added”. Meaning – it is still there. Aluminum content has also been raised sharply. I guess you could also research what the FDA has to say about high levels of aluminum too and the affect on the body.

  89. #91 Keenacat
    August 14, 2008

    What the heck do you expect? “Mercury removed” on every package? Is mercury somehow naturally found in vaccines? See… This is not, for example, mineral water where you have to remove stuff actively (iron, for example) to keep it out.
    If they don’t add mercury, there simply is no mercury – this is one of the great advantages of modern pharmaceutics. You can avoid any unwanted ingredient by not adding it (some odd impurities excluded). Period.
    At least here in Germany they keep it simple… There is no additional mentioning of mercury. Its not in the list, so there is none.
    (If you are one of those big conspirancy nuts, you probably think they add mercury and keep it secret – but what on earth would be the aim of that??)

    And when it comes to aluminium… Given that your kidneys are up and well, your body simply gets rid of excess aluminum. Having one shot of HAV/HBV-vaccine exposes you to much less aluminium than you take orally every day via food and drinking water.

  90. #92 ozzy
    August 14, 2008

    “Aluminum content has also been raised sharply”

    Source please. Define a high level of aluminum for us.

    Still waiting for that page no in which that October 25, 1996 CDC MMWR that states there were “11 CASES [of CRS] THE FOLLOWING YEAR IN 1966.”

  91. #93 Dawn
    August 14, 2008

    Kennacat:

    If a manufacturer still uses mercury in “some vaccines”, then there will still be trace amounts in the rest of them. You simply cannot remove mercury 100% during the filtration process. Anyone who knows anything about chemistry would know that. Therefore, they are correct by stating that “no mercury has been added”. Either way, it is still there.

    Where is your proof that humans are exposed to more than 225 micrograms of aluminum per day in drinking water and food? Sources please?? The FDA claims that the average person is only exposed to roughly 4-5 micrograms daily. Gardasil alone has 225 micrograms as it is. I am not going to supply you with FDA links to persuade you. Whether or not you care to sift through the FDA’s information is entirely up to you.

    Ozzy, I am not going to repeat myself. Read my previous post @ 10:19 am.

  92. #94 Undergraduate-gal
    August 14, 2008

    Keenacat

    “this is one of the great advantages of modern pharmaceutics. You can avoid any unwanted ingredient by not adding it (some odd impurities excluded).”

    I guess those “odd impurities” include chicken cell-derived Avian leucosis virus?

    BTW, where did you get the idea that drinking something is equivalent to injecting it directly into the bloodstream?

  93. #95 ozzy
    August 14, 2008

    Oh Uundergrad, your true colors have been revealed with this statement:
    “equivalent to injecting it directly into the bloodstream?”
    Typical uninformed retort from an antivaxer. Once again, an IM injection is intramuscularly, not intravenous. The IM dose is diluted by extracellular fluid resulting in lower max blood concentrations which greatly affects pharmacokinetic parameters such as tissue distribution.

    “Apparently, the data was altered online (the link that you gave me), for whatever reason. Gee, WHO would do such a thing? Why would anyone have to alter previously reported statistics?”

    Right. Why don’t you enlighten the world with the hard copy. Provide us with the link. Or is it hidden from the world in order to protect “The Truth” from the New Pharma World Order.

    Dawn, once again you are wrong and off by a large amount. Let’s look at some concentrations of aluminum: (From ATSDR’s risk assessment of Aluminum)
    460-930 ug/L of soy-based formula
    9.2-49 ug/L of breast milk
    58-150 ug/L for milk-based formula
    Then they grow up and eat 3.4-9 mg (that’s milligrams)/day
    So humans are exposed to a lot of aluminum in their lives.

    By the way Dawn, data is plural so you need to state “these data were…” not “this data is…” Just a little pet-peeve from someone who according to you can’t read or write.

  94. #96 Undergraduate-gal
    August 14, 2008

    Arrgh, I am forever disgraced and shown to be wrong in all matters. Not a single molecule of the shot will enter the bloodstream of course.

    So, just to recap, your informed answer was that an IM injection, and drinking something are equivalent.

    I am sure you’ve nailed Dawn just as hard, but if she remebers correctly, it seems it’s actually the FDA you’ve nailed. Maybe the FDA is antivax.

  95. #97 HCN
    August 14, 2008

    U-g “Arrgh, I am forever disgraced and shown to be wrong in all matters.”

    Perhaps you should refrain from the rambling, cutesy rhetoric and what seems to lying.

  96. #98 ozzy
    August 14, 2008

    So, nothing of what you eat ends up in the bloodstream. How are you alive?

    Answer these simple questions UG:
    1. Are vaccines injected directly into the bloodstream?
    2. Are the pharmacokinetics of IV and IM injections similar?

    Actually, I have no confidence that the FDA actually said that “The FDA claims that the average person is only exposed to roughly 4-5 micrograms daily.” So, I don’t actually think I “nailed” the FDA. Time and time again Dawn has overstated, misinterpreted and just plain made shit up.

    By the way, this whole hormone-laden teenage girl schtick is rather trite.

  97. #99 Keenacat
    August 14, 2008

    Dawn,

    maybe you should go and learn something about the difference between micrograms (µg) and milligrams (mg). Gardasil contains 225 µg of adjuvant aluminium (taken from the german “Rote Liste”), that means 0,255 mg, whereas the FDA says daily aluminium intake for adults ranges from about 6 to 14(!) mg daily. Lets say there’s only 1% actually passing the gut into the body, its still at least 0,06 mg daily… Thus, a shot of Gardasil gives the body the equivalent of max. 4 days of a normal diet. Well… Not so dramatic after all.
    µ makes quite a difference…

    @the bloodstream-bullshit:
    It makes a HUGE difference if you inject stuff into the muscle or a vein. You see, there is intravascular fluid and there is intracellular fluid. The latter has the greater volume by far. If you inject stuff intravascular, it only mixes with those intravascular fluids, approx. 2,7 litres (blood cells don’t count). If you inject the same amount of stuff intramuscular, it’s diluted by intracellular liquids, takes time to be washed out and the resulting blood levels are much lower.
    Besides: hitting a bloodvessel during IM-injection is considered malpractice.

    And don’t forget: healthy kidneys get rid of that stuff in no time. Even IF the whole lotta aluminium got directly into the bloodstream, it doesn’t matter anyway.

  98. #100 Undergraduate-gal
    August 14, 2008

    HCN, judging from your comment just there, perhaps you should just refrain from rambling, period.

    Mr. Ozzy, you’re drifting now. your complete inability to focus on the essential issues shows your true colors as a pro-vax sheep.

    Now try to concentrate, friend and don’t let HCN distract you: The question is not about intake but uptake and body burden.

    So handsome, what is the fraction of aluminum uptake from a vaccine shot compared to that of food and water?

    Or the even shorter version, using that big sexy word of yours up there:

    It ain’t about the pharmacokinetics of IM vs. IV, but about the toxicokinetics of IM vs. oral intake.

    Got it?

  99. #101 Dawn
    August 14, 2008

    Here you go Ozzy. I know that you are too lazy to type

    http://www.fda.gov

    http://google2.fda.gov/search?q=aluminum+toxicity&client=FDA&site=FDA&lr=&proxystylesheet=FDA&output=xml_no_dtd&getfields=*

    * There are roughly 4,240 articles on aluminum. Have at it. Just don’t expect me to do the work for you.

  100. #102 ozzy
    August 14, 2008

    Why don’t you tell me about the toxicokinetics of IM Al versus oral Al? Give me absorption rates, etc. Why don’t you enlighten us and yourself about Al excretion. Does Al bioaccumulate?

    But actually, it doesn’t matter what the fraction of an oral dose is absorbed when the general population has been shown to have whole blood concentrations of Al up to 6.24 MILLIGRAMS/L. A 225 ug bolus dose would have very minimal effects on Al blood concentrations.

  101. #103 ozzy
    August 14, 2008

    Dawn,

    Do you understand the difference between micrograms and milligrams?

  102. #104 Dawn
    August 14, 2008

    And Ozzy calls me the whiner. Ha! What’s the matter? You asked for a link. I gave you the link.

    By the way, I do understand the difference between micrograms and milligrams. Do you understand that the FDA has devised a formula for safe aluminum consumption based on a person’s weight? Oh, what was I thinking…..injecting is not the same as consuming. If PubMed, JAMA, or whatever the heck else you read state that it is ok to inject Cyanide, then it must be (theoretically speaking of course).

    Ozzy, have you been evaluated by a professional? I have read that extremely intelligent people can lack basic common sense (for example, be able to solve the most complex equation in their head, but cannot figure out how to operate the simplest washing machine).

  103. #105 Undergrad-gal
    August 14, 2008

    Gee, you are lazy sob, Ozzy. Now that you’ve finally understood what it is about, you can look up all the absorption and excretion stuff for yourself can’t you?

    But instead you are once again straying with your 6.24 MILLIGRAMS/L. The thing is there are certain values that are considered safe. The question is, are those values safe? Are the safe values exceeded when an infant (not the general population) gets all its shots.

    Is your blindly provax argument now that that we could safely inject babies with several milligrams of aluminum, IM or IV, because those levels are found elsewhere, according to your not referenced source?

  104. #106 ozzy
    August 14, 2008

    Hey UG,ATSDR Aluminum risk assessment. By the way, that population study was performed in the early 1970s. Where was all the autism then if it was soo high? You honestly don’t think the body evolved effective mechanism to deal with the most abundant metal and third most abundant element on Earth.

    Under what circumstances, outside of dialysis, are babies being injected intravenously with Al? Oh yeah, you think that IM = IV, right.

    And by the way, give me the scenario in which babies are injected with several milligrams of Al at once. You still haven’t answered my question: Does Al bioaccumulate? Or is that too big of a word for you…Here’s a hint, No!

  105. #107 Undergrad-gal
    August 14, 2008

    Ok, let’s make it simple for you, Ozzy.

    Your argument implied that none of the levels of aluminum in the vaccines mattered because they came nowhere near the levels found in the general population. Well, the general population isn’t autistic is it? So you’re arguing that a few extra milligrams here and there for Ozzy Jr. wouldn’t matter, aren’t you?

    And that’s a hypothetical question concerning the logic of your reasoning. I wasn’t advising you to try it at home.

  106. #108 Keenacat
    August 14, 2008

    UG,

    where ever you get those “several milligrams of aluminum”, it can’t be the vaccines… As we pointed out to you, aluminium dosage is measured in µg because of the low doses and infants vaccines have even less than adults. Aluminium is excreted by the kidneys and doesn’t build up, neither in adults nor infants.
    Funny enough, MMR-vaccines in particular (e.g. Priorix) tend not to have ANY aluminium, ’cause there is no need for its adjuvant effect there (remember, kids: that aluminium stuff is for immune boostering, not for conservation purposes).

    Further, infants have a much higher intake per kg bodyweight, as they are much smaller than adults.

  107. #109 ozzy
    August 14, 2008

    No, you’re the one with faulty logical reasoning. It’s not based on any biological principles. Please tell me where you get a few milligrams from when some shots contain 225 ug and Al does not bioaccumulate.

  108. #110 Undergrad-gal
    August 14, 2008

    DUUUHH Keenan. Were you not the one who talked about basic reading skills in the other thread?

    “But actually, it doesn’t matter what the fraction of an oral dose is absorbed when the general population has been shown to have whole blood concentrations of Al up to 6.24 MILLIGRAMS/L. A 225 ug bolus dose would have very minimal effects on Al blood concentrations” (Ozzy)

    “MILLIGRAMS” is even capitalized for you.

  109. #111 Keenacat
    August 14, 2008

    This is simply hilarious. :D
    I know, sometimes its quite hard to follow the whole discussion-thingie.
    So there it is, purified just for you:

    You said:
    >>Is your blindly provax argument now that that we could safely inject babies with several milligrams of aluminum, IM or IV, because those levels are found elsewhere, according to your not referenced source?

    No, thats NOT the argument, since we DO NOT inject babies with several milligrams of aluminium as you seem to have the need to imply. We do not, and we plan not to do. So, there is no several milligrams. Just several micrograms, that won’t do harm. Period.
    Those babies (and adults) get their aluminium blood levels from their food.
    If it evaded you, ozzy and I completely agree on this issue.

  110. #112 Mary Parsons
    August 14, 2008

    After an initial spike in levels, a child’s aluminium burden drops very rapidly after vaccination.

    Children are born with a systemic aluminum body burden, which is increased throughout life by the inhalation and dietary intake of aluminum compounds as well as by injections of vaccines and allergy treatments containing aluminum adjuvants. Those injections may produce localized reactions without systemic impact. The body burden associated with dietary uptake from either breast milk or formula during the first several months of life and from semisolid food during the remainder of that first year is estimated to reach approximately 0.1 mg. This value is lower than the estimated body burden of approximately 4mg that would result from consuming aluminum at a rate equal to the MRL of 2 mg/kg per day. The body burden attributable to vaccines may be expected to fall between the two except for a period of a few days following individual vaccinations.

    Keith LS, Jones DE, Chou CH. Aluminum toxicokinetics regarding infant diet and vaccinations. Vaccine. 2002 May 31;20 Suppl 3:S13-7.

  111. #113 Dawn
    August 14, 2008

    http://google2.fda.gov/search?q=aluminum+toxicity&client=FDA&site=FDA&lr=&proxystylesheet=FDA&output=xml_no_dtd&getfields=*

    * There are roughly 4,240 articles on aluminum. Have at it. Just don’t expect me to do the work for you.

    I am really beginning to think that not just Ozzy lacks common sense. As far as the quack that you mentioned Mary Parsons, the FDA has a different point of view regarding aluminum. Hint – see link I referenced above. Or, is the FDA not a credible source on this forum?

  112. #114 Franklin
    August 14, 2008

    Dawn claims:

    By the way, I was given the rubella vaccine last year while suffering from SEVERE PREECLAMPSIA.

    This is very odd, because preeclampsia is a complication of pregnancy.

    In fact it usually occurs relatively late in preganancy.

    But rubella vaccination is contraindicated during pregnancy.

    Sounds like a tall tale to me.

  113. #115 Dawn
    August 14, 2008

    Franklin: At least some other sane person sees something wrong with giving a sick woman a vaccine. Supposedly, preeclampsia is supposed to resolve itself when the baby is born. However, my case was “unusual” because the two stupid doctors involved did not follow the vaccine manufacturer’s guidelines….it can cause AN INCREASE in blood pressure. Friggin morons could have killed me.

  114. #116 RobertS
    August 15, 2008

    Dawn: When did you get the vaccine that you claim caused the “relapse” of pre-eclampsia (referencing the date of birth). And how exactly was the condition of pre-eclampsia diagnosed during the recurrence. If it was simply high blood pressure, or outside the 6-8 week window after the placenta was gone from your body, then calling it pre-eclampsia is wrong. If you were given the vaccine during that window, after the birth, while you were suffering (vs relapsing) from “severe” pre-eclampsia how could you tell that it wasn’t simply the pre-eclampsia.

  115. #117 Science Avenger
    August 15, 2008

    Perhaps the cure for autism is to keep blonde nimrods from procreating.

  116. #118 alyric
    August 17, 2008

    “Friggin morons could have killed me.”

    Pity they didn’t,certainly would have saved the world from one more educationally challenged individual giving women everywhere a bad name. I cringe to think that there are undergrads with such appalling critical thinking skills. What on earth is she studying, advanced fingerpainting?

  117. #119 Dawn
    August 19, 2008

    RobertS stated: “Dawn: When did you get the vaccine that you claim caused the “relapse” of pre-eclampsia (referencing the date of birth). And how exactly was the condition of pre-eclampsia diagnosed during the recurrence. If it was simply high blood pressure, or outside the 6-8 week window after the placenta was gone from your body, then calling it pre-eclampsia is wrong. If you were given the vaccine during that window, after the birth, while you were suffering (vs relapsing) from “severe” pre-eclampsia how could you tell that it wasn’t simply the pre-eclampsia”.

    I was suffering from severe pre-eclampsia (extrememly high blood pressure and was +4 on the urine analysis – which was off the charts I was told). Had my baby 6 weeks early by way of C-Section, evaluated for a few days afterward (everything was returning to normal). On the day of my discharge I was given a rubella vaccine, which sent me into a downward spiral. I know that the vaccine was to blame because I felt very odd within 1-2 hours after administration. Needless to say, my blood pressure spiked back up to 182/128 and my urine test was off the charts once again. I later learned that the manufacturer does not recommend the vaccine for anyone more than moderately ill. The vaccine can also cause an increase in blood pressure according to the manufacturer. I should have been back at the hospital 6 hours later, but waited until the next morning to go back. By then I was hallucinating and looked like the elephant woman (excessive water retention). So, I do in fact, blame the vaccine 100% because of the warnings on the label and the fact that my situation changed rapidly after the vaccine was administered.

  118. #120 Off The Charts!
    August 19, 2008

    Dawn said: “I should have been back at the hospital 6 hours later, but waited until the next morning to go back. By then I was hallucinating and looked like the elephant woman (excessive water retention).

    Glad to hear the swelling went down. When do they expect the hallucinations to subside?

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