Respectful Insolence

Since vaccines seem to be back in the news again, I would be remiss if I didn’t mention a fantastic post that I saw the other day over at A Photon in the Darkness.

Read it. Read it now.

I’ve done fairly long posts about how pseudoscientists and antivaccine advocates are capitalizing on the case of Hannah Poling, who had a mitochondrial disorder that, the government conceded, may have been exacerbated by vaccines. Meanwhile, antivaccine mouthpiece David Kirby is shouting to the world that new findings that mitochondrial disorders are more common than previously thought is somehow vindication of the “vaccines cause autism” myth. I’ve pointed out how this new focus on mitochondrial diseases is in essence the “rebranding” of autism and how it is evidence of the amazing shrinking vaccine causation claim. However, Prometheus has written a true tour de force about the science of mitochondrial mutations and why the recent paper claiming that such mutations are much more common than previously thought almost certainly has little to do with the “cause” of most autism and even less to do with the myth that vaccines cause autism.

Not that that keeps the quacks from capitalizing on this, of course. As I predicted back in February, already the autism quacks are coming up with mitochondrial disease “tests” of dubious reliability and similarly–shall we say?–rebranding their quackery to “treat mitochondrial diseases.” Indeed, so prevalent has the concept that mitochondrial diseases plus vaccines are somehow the cause of autism become that on discussion boards there’s a shorthand abbreviation for such diseases that everyone now understands, “mito” (as in–as Prometheus puts it–”My DAN! doctor wants to test my son for mito.”).

Sadly, because mitochondrial diseases are not well understood yet, they are fertile ground for pseudoscience and quackery, and such idiocy will likely persist for several years at least, as the science is worked out. Given that multiple studies have failed to validate the hypothesis that thimerosal in vaccines, or vaccination in general, causes autism and that Andrew Wakefield has been repeatedly shown to have been a paid shill for trial lawyers doing litigation-driven research, the antivaccine movement needed a new angle. Unfortunately, the Hannah Poling case provided it.

Comments

  1. #1 Phoenix Woman
    August 22, 2008

    Check out this comment by Daedalus2u, where he points out that mitochondria, since they are vulnerable to oxygen-induced damage, evolved to have a short life so they could be recycled and replaced by new mitochondria before they got too damaged to function properly.

  2. #2 bfish
    August 22, 2008

    This doesn’t really belong in this post, but I wanted Orac to see this news item from Sydney. It’s not the mercury, see, it’s the aluminum!
    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/parents-on-the-run/2008/08/22/1219262525169.html

  3. #3 Sullivan
    August 22, 2008

    From what I can see, the mitochondrial disease community seems to have a better handle on how to distribute good information than the autism community. umdf.org has good information, and there is an option to “ask the mito doc”.

    Compared with, say, Generation Rescue’s website and approach, the difference is striking.

    The autism community should learn from the mitochondrial disease community–both science and approach. Instead, segments of our community seem to be barreling ahead with the feeling that we know it all.

    I hope in the process the autism community’s impact on the mitochondrial disease community is small.

  4. #4 Keenacat
    August 22, 2008

    @ bfish:
    Of course it’s the aluminium. If thimerosal was the main reason, those guys could no longer maintain their vaccination-is-teh-evil-bullfaeces.
    And of course humans can’t “break down” aluminium since it’s elemental. So he’s right on this, but involuntarily so, I guess. But humans can easily excrete aluminium (assumed their kidneys are up and well).

    Besides, the funny thing about the aluminium-claim is the fact that most MMR-vaccines do not contain some (or at least those we use over here in germany). Now, how do they want to explain THAT? Is the MMR-shot safe after all?

  5. #5 wfjag
    August 22, 2008

    The “mitochondrial autism” assertion is apparently entirely based on the Vaccine Court’s decision in the Hannah Poling case. However, as the New England Journal of Medicine reported, “Hannah was diagnosed with encephalopathy caused by a mitochondrial enzyme deficit.” “Vaccines and Autism Revisited — The Hannah Poling Case” by Paul A. Offit, M.D., Vol. 358 NEJM 2089-2091 (May 15, 2008)http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/358/20/2089

    ASD is a clinical diagnosis, whereas Poling was diagnosed with a mitochondrial enzyme deficit, ASD is an inappropriate diagnosis under DSM-IV-RT. Moreover, Dr. Offit correctly summarizes the legal causation standards followed by the Vaccine Court, which are very lenient to plaintiffs. The the stress of the vaccines “may” have triggered the encephalopathy due to a mitochondrial enzyme deficit is sufficient under those legal standards. In fact, it is only necessary to show the the vaccination(s), or stress from the vaccination(s) may have been a contributing cause to the injury, and not even that it may have been a substantial cause of the injury. All the Poling decision shows is that out of 4,000+ plaintiffs, the facts of 1 case were unique enough to possibly meet the very lenient causation test followed by the Vaccine Court. (Use of “possibly” intentional, since the government conceded the point, so the court didn’t, in fact, decide the issue).

  6. #6 D. C. Sessions
    August 22, 2008

    Sadly, because mitochondrial diseases are not well understood yet, they are fertile ground for pseudoscience and quackery, and such idiocy will likely persist for several years at least, as the science is worked out.

    Feeling optimistic today, are we?

    Since when has something being understood posed any obstacle to the forces of woo?

    Germ theory? They laugh at it.
    Chemistry? Need I mention homeopathy?
    Cancer? They’re still denying the possibility of metastasis.

    The list is endless.

  7. #7 Ace of Sevens
    August 22, 2008

    Compare lifetime exposures of aluminum from vaccines vs deodor and aluminum cookware. This makes less sense than the previous claim.

  8. #8 trrll
    August 22, 2008

    Compare lifetime exposures of aluminum from vaccines vs deodor and aluminum cookware. This makes less sense than the previous claim

    Not to mention aluminum salts in things like baking powder and antacids. Normal body content of aluminum is around 30 mg. The amount of aluminum in a dose of vaccine is about 0.25 mg–hardly enough to make a blip.

  9. #9 oh boy soy
    August 23, 2008

    Yeah, and Generation Rescue’s JB Handley makes money off of selling soy foods that contain both aluminum and mercury, though he demands that vaccines be aluminum and mercury free. Shocking. That’s besides all those estrogen like compounds that are turning boys girlish according to some. That might explain JB Handley’s developing breast-like fat pads on his chest. Too much soy from Genisoy.

  10. #10 Elizabeth
    August 23, 2008

    Why don’t you get your vaccines and leave us alone who chose not to. We are advocating for safer vaccines. As it is now, our children are creating autoantibodies to all the food ingredients in the vaccinations – egg, casein, gluten, MSG, etc. When our kids are taken off these things, they get better – go figure. When they stop vaccinating our kids against FOOD, giving live viruses which infect kids who are non-responders, and quit vaccinating newborns for diseases spread by unhealthy behavior that they are incapable of (STD!), then maybe we will stop complaining. Until then, you get yours vaccinated and we will avoid the BS. I wish my children would have gotten measles rather than autism. My husband and I have very healthy family lines until our children were screwed up by packing them full of toxins in their vaccines. They could have easily fought off measles. What was wrong with the shots of the 70′s I ask you? Why do our kids need 10X more shots starting from birth? Ridiculous greed.

  11. #11 Irene
    August 23, 2008

    @ Elizabeth: “As it is now, our children are creating autoantibodies to all the food ingredients in the vaccinations”

    And they don’t get antibodies from the food they *eat*? Does it really take the minute quantities in vaccines to get this result?

    “When they stop vaccinating our kids against FOOD, giving live viruses which infect kids who are non-responders”

    Erm… And is it egg in vaccines or “live virus”, now? Also, if the kind of lifestyle you describe was so good at keeping infectious diseases at bay, why the recent outbreak of measles in children of anti-vaccine parents?

    “quit vaccinating newborns for diseases spread by unhealthy behavior that they are incapable of (STD!)”

    First, it’s funny that you call sex “unhealthy”: isn’t that how people make babies in the first place? Second, the “STD” vaccine you’re speaking about is hepatitis B, which is not only transmitted sexually: you can get it from contact with infected blood, for instance from a scratch. So it makes sense to give it to babies or very young children!

    Maybe you should think about all this… Seriously.

  12. #12 HCN
    August 23, 2008

    Elizabeth moaned “Why don’t you get your vaccines and leave us alone who chose not to. ”

    Because some kids who were too young to be vaccinated (like the dozen or so babies who die each in the USA from pertussis), and the babies who were infected with measles in San Diego from some kid who brought measles into a doctor’s waiting room.

    Then you continued “What was wrong with the shots of the 70′s I ask you? ”

    The MMR was introduced in the USA in 1971, and has never contained thimerosal. Measles causes encephalitis in one out of a thousand cases, with about 1 in 500 deaths and several more of the survivors with permanent neuroglogical damage.

    The DTP was also used in the 1970s, as was the oral polio vaccine. Hib was not used then, but lots of kids were killed or permanently disabled by the actual disease.

    Here is a thought, don’t vaccinate your kids — BUT also keep them at home, all of the time. Don’t let them near babies, older people or kids with health issues like my oldest child. Because infectious kids can cause real harm to those with mitochondrial diseases and like here:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1055533.ece ….
    Begin Quote
    Although both children survived, they have been left with lasting damage.

    Joe, who was discharged from hospital at the end of August, is unlikely to regain the full use of his left leg and has partial paralysis of his tongue and throat.

    Matthew, who was not discharged from hospital until December 21, is more severely disabled. His optic nerves were permanently scarred by the virus and he is now registered blind.

    He is also virtually confined to a wheelchair and has had to drop out of his mainstream school. Karen said: “Before he had measles, he could go out, he could play football, he could do what he wanted.

    “It’s heart-breaking to see your child who could do everything, now able to do nothing. One day last week he just burst into tears and asked, ‘Why can’t I be normal?’ I had to reassure him, ‘Matthew, you had measles. You shouldn’t have got measles, but you did’.”

    MATTHEW and Joe are not alone, and it is not just children with weakened immune systems who are at risk. Although cases of measles still number in the hundreds, doctors are learning once again how the disease can spread with frightening rapidity through the population. The experience of Ireland is a stark warning of what could happen here.

    Just as in Britain, vaccination rates in Ireland fell sharply after Wakefield’s scare and in 2000, there was an outbreak of measles. More than 1,600 children were infected, more than 350 were hospitalised and three died.

    Naomi Pop, just 14 months old, was among the victims. Her mother, Maria, 20, was not unduly worried when Naomi contracted measles just four weeks before she was due to have the triple jab. She said: “I thought to myself, ‘Measles, so what?’ I mean, how bad could that be?”

    Within a few days Naomi had developed acute pneumonia. It took a year for her to die. She suffered several infections and progressive brain damage and finally died on March 14, 2001.

    Other parents have yet to learn whether their children have suffered long-term damage from measles. Laurie Laird’s daughter Madeline contracted the virus when she was five months old. She recovered but at 20 months is still barely speaking.

    End Quote

    Because that is the kind of damage folks like you cause. And when the first American dies of measles (like the over 120 did between 1987 and 1991) then you all will be the cause.

  13. #13 Militant Agnostic
    August 23, 2008

    MSG? in vaccines? sounds like standard foodist talking talking points with no sense.

    By the way intramuscular injections of very small quantities of allergens is a treatment (desensitisation) for allergies, not a cause of allergies.

  14. #14 snerd
    August 23, 2008

    We are advocating for safer vaccines.

    That’d be what’s otherwise known as a fib. What you want is an end to vaccination, to better indulge your healer-mother complex. You may not think so at this stage, but this is where this kind of discourse always seems to end up.

  15. #15 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    HCN stated: “Here is a thought, don’t vaccinate your kids — BUT also keep them at home, all of the time. Don’t let them near babies, older people or kids with health issues like my oldest child. Because infectious kids can cause real harm to those with mitochondrial diseases and like here:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1055533.ece ….
    Begin Quote
    Although both children survived, they have been left with lasting damage”.

    Actually, HCN, first where is your proof that an unvaccinated person was to blame for all of the above? Whose to say it wasn’t a vaccinated person who was responsible? As far as keeping kids home – likewise, keep your kids indoors, away from everyone if you choose to vaccinate – for up to 6 weeks as the manufacturer suggests as “transmission of the virus is possible”.

  16. #16 HCN
    August 23, 2008

    Read the article.

    Also, provide actual proof of this statement “likewise, keep your kids indoors, away from everyone if you choose to vaccinate – for up to 6 weeks as the manufacturer suggests as “transmission of the virus is possible”.”

  17. #17 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    Just read the vaccine literature supplied by the maker of the product. Each and every live-virus vaccine states that transmission is possible for up to 6 weeks. It is called “shedding”.

  18. #18 ozzy
    August 23, 2008

    “transmission of the virus is possible”.

    Dawn,that needs to be stated accurately.

    “transmission of an attenuated virus is possible.”

    One more thing Dawn. Were any of the measles genotypes that were detected in infected patients used in any of the commercial vaccines?

  19. #19 Prometheus
    August 23, 2008

    Dawn is actually correct that vaccine strain virus is found in the oropharynx and nasopharynx of up to 20% children who have been vaccinated for up to six weeks after vaccination.

    However, that’s not exactly a “smoking gun”. Measles vaccine is a live attenuated virus, so finding it in the saliva and mucus is not exactly a surprise – it’s in the blood, saliva, mucus, stool and probably even in the urine during the time that the virus is replicating. Again, not exactly news [see Kobune et al, Characterization of measles virus isolated after measles vaccination. Vaccine. 1995 13(4):370-372.]

    I suppose that it is possible to contract the measles vaccine strain from someone who has been vaccinated, even though the virus production is generally too low to be contagious.

    I would suggest that children who have recently vaccinated with live virus vaccines not be allowed to have long, open-mouth kisses with people who are immunosuppressed. That’s about the only way the vaccine strain can be transmitted.

    If we could transmit the vaccine strain, there wouldn’t be any need to vaccinate more than about 5% of the population – the rest would “catch” it from those who had been vaccinated. Since that doesn’t happen, only people who were vaccinated (or had the disease) are immune.

    Again, if virus “shedding” from measles vaccine were contagious, we wouldn’t need to vaccinate more than a small fraction of the population in order to get 100% immunity. If the virus strain were contagious, measles would have been eradicated decades ago.

    I can’t think of any more ways to say it. Measles vaccine strain is not contagious except in extraordinary circumstances such as significant body fluid exchange between a recently vaccinated child (first vaccination) and an immunosuppressed person.

    Clear enough?

    Prometheus

  20. #20 Dawn
    August 23, 2008

    Ozzy, thank you for confirming that. Transmission is possible.

    As far as your question on genotypes, here is one article of many that discusses the issue somewhat.

    http://jvi.asm.org/cgi/content/full/77/21/11546

    I don’t exactly understand your point though?

  21. #21 Clay
    August 24, 2008

    Dawn, it’s also possible for objects to spontaniously float in air. You’re completely ignoring how probable transmission would be. Do you spend your days worrying about being hit by a meteor?

  22. #22 Dawn
    August 24, 2008

    Actually Clay, vaccines have a higher failure rate than you would think. Now, given the fact that transmission is “possible”, am I to assume that the risk is slight or is there more to this picture? This is just one disease.

    Outbreak of Measles in Vaccinated Populations

    1984 58% were vaccinated (national statistics of school aged children)
    1985 99% were vaccinated (Corpus Christi, TX)
    1986 96% were vaccinated (Dane County, WI)
    1988 69% were vaccinated (national statistics of school aged children)
    1989 89% were vaccinated (national statistics of school aged children)
    1995 56% were vaccinated (national statistics of all ages)

    Sources: New England Journal of Medicine 1987;316:771-74
    Journal of the American Medical Association 1990;263:2467-71
    Several CDC MMWRs

    Mothers offer maternal antibodies when contracting measles naturally. Protection is offered for up to 15 months. Vaccinated mothers offer no protection to the newborn.
    Source: Pediatrics 1996;97:53-58

    What does a meteor have to do with anything?

  23. #23 Clay
    August 24, 2008

    Funny. I can’t see where I mentioned anything about vaccine effectiveness rates in my last post. It’s just like you to respond with a complete non sequitor.

    Also, those statistics you posted are useless without the percentage of vaccinated vs unvaccinated for those areas.

    “What does a meteor have to do with anything?”

    You were previously talking about possibility as a cause for concern. As it is possible for a meteor to strike you, I assumed you would be concerned about that fact.

  24. #24 Dawn
    August 24, 2008

    Are you kidding me Clay? Well, if 58% were vaccinated (still contracted the measles though) then take a wild guess at the percentage of unvaccinated. Um, take 100-58 and you will have your answer.

  25. #25 Militant Agnostic
    August 24, 2008

    Nearly 100% of race car drivers who are killed or injured were wearing 4, 5 or 6 point harnesses and helmets. Using Dawn’s logic, seat belts and helmets do not offer any protection.

    I will make a vain attempt to explain this.
    If 90% of the population is vaccinated and the vaccine is 90% effective, then 10% of the vaccinated population is vulnerable which is 9% of the total population. If none of the unvaccinated population has achieved immunity the hard way, then 100% of the unvaccinated population is vulnerable.
    This makes 10% of the total population.

    9% + 10% makes 19%.

    This means that 9/19 = 47% of the cases will occur in vaccinated individuals and 53% of the cases will occur in the unvaccinated population. If 10% of the unvaccinated population has aquired immunity the hard way, then the vulnerable indiviuals in the unvaccinated population would be 9% of the total population and the split would 50/50. An innumurate person would conclude that the vaccine was only 50% effective instead of 90% effective.

  26. #26 Tsu Dho Nimh
    August 24, 2008

    Elizabeth said:

    When they stop vaccinating our kids against FOOD, giving live viruses which infect kids who are non-responders, and quit vaccinating newborns for diseases spread by unhealthy behavior that they are incapable of (STD!), then maybe we will stop complaining.

    Elizabeth … So you don’t want to protect a child against the “sins of the parents”? You don’t want to stop the transmission of hepatitis beforeit reaches your child and his/her nursery class?

    FYI, “transmissable by bodily fluids” doesn’t mean just sperm and bloody needles. It includes the bloodand vaginal fluids of the mother during birth, the breast milk of a nursing mother, and all the saliva that toddlers drool onto their buddies. A baby born to a HepB infected woman has a very high chance of getting the virus, and either dying of it or becoming a chronic infected person and dying early if liver problems and cancer. An infected child can infect other children.

  27. #27 Dawn
    August 24, 2008

    Tsu Dho Nimh says: “A baby born to a HepB infected woman has a very high chance of getting the virus, and either dying of it or becoming a chronic infected person and dying early if liver problems and cancer. An infected child can infect other children”.

    We are not a Socialist country yet Tsu Dho Nimh. Nobody has the right to ask another to sacrifice their young or themselves for the sake of the “herd”. France removed this vaccine years ago from their market due to the “numverous risks”. Not only do we still carry the same vaccine by the same manufacturer, but we lowered the age of administration from 6 mo. to newborn. Why?

    My pediatrician tried to sell me on the Hep B vaccine too. “There is a chance of him being bit at the playground” – though small. What a crock. I even had a nurse have the nerve to tell me that she has “never heard” of any horrible adverse reactions associated with this vaccine. Oh really, talk to the French Authorities you idiot!!!

  28. #28 ozzy
    August 24, 2008

    “I don’t exactly understand your point though?”

    This statement completely sums up your ignorance in regards to science. It’s very simple. If the strain of virus found in infected patients is not the same as that used in vaccine manufacturing then the two are not linked.

  29. #29 Dawn
    August 24, 2008

    THANK YOU OZZY because that is exactly my point! Different strains mean the vaccines were “useless” – so, that “trumps” your herd immunity theory I guess too. It took you a while, but you finally got it. Again, thank you.

  30. #30 ozzy
    August 24, 2008

    Clueless Dawn,

    You truly are clueless. Nice try with dodging my point. If the shed virus is of a different strain than the virus in which people were infected with, how can the two be linked. It’s the fatal flaw in your “data-free opinion.”

    So me the evidence that vaccination against one strain does not provide cross-reactivity against other strains. I think the data are very clear regarding the effectiveness of the measles vaccine. And before you spout out the 56% of infected individuals, please read Militant Agnostic’s post again and brush up on your 2nd grade math skills.

  31. #31 Ace of Sevens
    August 24, 2008

    To Dawn: the measles virus in the vaccine is not dangerous. It is not particularly contagious and even if it were to spread, it won’t cause serious illness. It provides immunity against the dangerous kind of measles though. This is how live attenuated viruses work.

  32. #32 Prometheus
    August 25, 2008

    To anyone confused by Dawn’s lack of epidemiological abilities, let me “run the numbers” for you.


    Historical Perspectives

    In the years immediately preceding the first measles vaccine in the early 1960′s, about 200 out of every 100,000 people came down with measles every year. This may seem like a small number, but remember that measles – in those innocent pre-vaccination days – primarily affected children under 10 years old.

    In 1950, the measles incidence was 211 per 100,000. US population at the time (it was a census year) was 152,271,417. This means that there were a little over 321,000 cases. At this time, there were about 32 million children ten or under, suggesting that about 1 in 100 (1%) children of that age got measles in that single year.

    Ten years later, in 1960 (another census year), the measles incidence was 245 per 100,000. US population was up to 180,671,158, so this works out to just under 443,000 cases – in that single year. The population of children ten years and under that year was almost 43 million and so the measles cases in that one year were equal to 1 out of 96 children that age.

    In 1970, less than ten years after the first measles vaccine was introduced, the measles incidence was down to 23 per 100,000. This works out to a bit over 47,000 cases or about 1 case for every 880 children ten and under.

    By 2000, the measles incidence was down to 0.03 per 100,000. This works out to 82 cases, or about 1 case for ever 540,000 children ten and under.


    Does didn’t vaccination prevent those outbreaks?

    OK, so this shows that the vaccine works. But what about those outbreaks since the 1980′s? As a result of those outbreaks, it was realized that the measles immunity from a single vaccination wasn’t lasting into adolescence and adulthood. In 1989, the recommendation was changed from a single vaccination to two – one at 12 – 15 months and a “booster” at 4 – 6 years.

    In the 1995 outbreak, just slightly over half of the victims had been vaccinated, but the 1989 recommendations would only have been applied to a fraction of children and none of the adults (remember, the first vaccine was first used in 1963) at that time.

    Subsequent outbreaks have included victims who had been previously vaccinated, but not in the numbers seen before the new recommendations took effect. Again, no vaccine – or any medical therapy – is 100% effective and immunity – even in those who vaccines “took” – will wane with time (that’s why the armed forces immunize their members against measles).


    Isn’t “natural” immunity better?

    Dawn is correct that the passive immunity mothers give their children is less – and lasts a shorter time – if they were vaccinated rather than having the disease. This is because the vaccine strain doesn’t make as many virus particles – which is also why it’s the vaccine strain and not just a variation of the wild type virus.

    The actual disease provides a stronger, longer lasting immunity, but it also kills and cripples people at a rate thousands of times higher than the vaccine. Would you rather risk death or disability from wild type measles or risk having to get a booster shot of the vaccine. Interestingly, even people whose vaccine immunity has waned get some benefit – if they do get measles, they get a milder case, with less risk of the most commom serious sequelae [Note: SSPS is an exception, since it is caused by a mutation of the wild-type virus unrelated to the host immune response]


    Why am I being forced to vaccinate my children?

    Apparently Dawn – and others – see vaccination as a matter of personal freedom. And, in the US, that’s exactly how it’s treated. Reading the diatribes of Dawn (and others), people outside the US might think that there is mandatory immunization in this country. For good or ill, there isn’t.

    Except for members of the armed forces – who have at least voluntarily surrendered their liberties (under the present “all volunteer” policy) – nobody in the US is vaccinated against their will (or the “will” of their parents or guardians, if they are underage).

    Public schools have generally required that children be vaccinated in oder to enroll, but I am not aware of any district that does not allow exceptions if vaccination conflicts with the parents’ religious convictions.

    I am also not aware of any school districts requiring documentation that the parents’ religion actually objects to vaccination [Note: this was done in some districts in the past]. If the parents fill out and sign the religious objection form, that’s all that is required.

    The only other time that I have been required to provide proof of vaccination was to get a visa to travel to a country where yellow fever was endemic. I suppose that I could have insisted on being quarantined on my return to the US instead, but the country I was visiting was most insistent on seeing proof of vaccination before issuing me a visa. Besides, the case-fatality rate of yellow fever is 15 – 50%.

    Because the US has relatively lax “consciencious objector” rules for vaccination, we are currently facing a bit of a crisis with vaccine-preventable diseases. Pertussis is endemic in many areas (as is hepatitis A – which has only recently become vaccine-preventable) and measles, mumps and rubella are making a comeback.

    Even so, there hasn’t been any talk of rounding up unvaccinated children and forcibly immunizing them. It’s just not how it’s done in the US.


    Are you part of the global conspiracy, too?

    All that I am trying to do is to convince those people who haven’t already decided that vaccines are part of a global socialist plot to enslave us and to “sap and impurify our precious bolidly fluids” that vaccination is safer (and a lot less unpleasant) than the alternative.

    At present, there are enough immune people to prevent anything more than a limited outbreak of measles. However, these limited outbreaks still have the potential to kill and cripple people.

    If the immunity of the population slips further, however, there will be the very real possibility of large-scale outbreaks. If that happens, people who are not vaccinated and those whose immunity has declined sufficiently will be at very real risk.

    It’s a gamble – do you bet on the remaining “herd immunity” protecting you (and hope that you’re not on a plane with someone coming down with measles) or do you play it safe (and do the socially responsible thing) and get yourself – and your children – vaccinated? Unlike casino gambling, however, the “safe” bet (vaccination) has the highest payoff – especially since there is no indication that vaccinations (or any kind) are linked to autism.

    Prometheus

  33. #33 Rogue Epidemmiologist
    August 25, 2008

    Dawn, you really are a moron. You keep playing the “Socialism” card, but the fact of the matter is that a person’s freedom and rights under a libertarian model extend only as far as the point where they infringe on another person’s rights. In your case, the right to be a walking germ bomb ends where there begins a possibility of another person catching your pathogens. So if you want to not be a part of the herd, then GTFO of the herd.

    With that said, I seriously doubt vaccines caused any of your injuries or those of anyone in your family. Since it’s all within your family, maybe it’s genes? In which case, your childrens’ illnesses and unruly behavior would wholly be YOUR FAULT. Sounds plenty more plausible to me than your crackpot claims about vaccines.

  34. #34 Dawn
    September 10, 2008

    Wow Orac! How right you are. Yes, I am actually agreeing with you for once.

    If defective cell lines are passed down in generations or caused in utero, there is no way of linking anything to vaccines. How brilliant! This is exactly why some children are born with a weakened immune system – it is inherited through DNA. Weakened cell lines are caused by chemicals, viruses, infections, VACCINES, etc. So, unless you have a group of children with a complete family history of no vaccines, you will never be able to prove the Autism/vax
    case.

    So, all of these children that were born with Autism symptoms had a weakened T & B Cell line, meaning that they were “born with it” and inherited it from their mom, dad, grandparents, etc. What other defective cell lines were they born with? If vaccines weren’t the trigger, than what was? Was it truly just inherited for some or was it just a genetically predisposed condition triggered by another factor? What chemical? What virus? What assault did it?

    At the same time, with this knowledge you are doing such an injustice to the community with vaccine-injured children! Obviously, their children had a “predisposed condition” that was triggered by vaccines! No wonder why 1/2 of my mom’s friends are not living past 50! They were just the
    first round of shots”! I guess our government officals took care of the Social Security Crises! Good for them. Kill people off when they are younger to save some time and money.

  35. #35 Dawn
    September 11, 2008

    What is up with this? Nobody is attacking my post? Where is the pack of wolves that I see so frequently? HCN? Dianne? LizDitz? Where are my fellow critiques? I am still AGREEING with Orac’s post you know. It is TOTAL nonsense. Just remember that when you admit the next child in the ER or have him/her referred by their pedi for a neuro scan. Total BS and some know it on this board. If you really care so little about your patients, then all the power to you.

  36. #36 snerd
    September 11, 2008

    Well, I tried to read your last missive but then I felt a ‘pop’ in my head and began to smell burnt toast, so I thought it prudent to stop and have a coffee instead.

  37. #37 Dawn
    September 11, 2008

    Snerd is not even from the U.S. What a dork.

  38. #38 snerd
    September 11, 2008

    Unable to respond in any rational way, Dawn flees behind the flag, hurling non-sequitars behind her!

  39. #39 Dawn
    September 11, 2008

    What is so wrong about this post snerd? Please tell me.

    Wow Orac! How right you are. Yes, I am actually agreeing with you for once.

    If defective cell lines are passed down in generations or caused in utero, there is no way of linking anything to vaccines. How brilliant! This is exactly why some children are born with a weakened immune system – it is inherited through DNA. Weakened cell lines are caused by chemicals, viruses, infections, VACCINES, etc. So, unless you have a group of children with a complete family history of no vaccines, you will never be able to prove the Autism/vax
    case.

    So, all of these children that were born with Autism symptoms had a weakened T & B Cell line, meaning that they were “born with it” and inherited it from their mom, dad, grandparents, etc. What other defective cell lines were they born with? If vaccines weren’t the trigger, than what was? Was it truly just inherited for some or was it just a genetically predisposed condition triggered by another factor? What chemical? What virus? What assault did it?

    At the same time, with this knowledge you are doing such an injustice to the community with vaccine-injured children! Obviously, their children had a “predisposed condition” that was triggered by vaccines! No wonder why 1/2 of my mom’s friends are not living past 50! They were just the
    first round of shots”! I guess our government officals took care of the Social Security Crises! Good for them. Kill people off when they are younger to save some time and money.

The site is currently under maintenance and will be back shortly. New comments have been disabled during this time, please check back soon.