Respectful Insolence

An actual pro-vaccine storyline? On ABC?

I don’t watch Private Practice. I didn’t like Grey’s Anatomy, which, every time I caught part of it, struck me as the cheesiest sort of medical soap opera, a General Hospital transplanted to prime time. Given that Private Practice is a spinoff of Grey’s Anatomy, I never saw any reason whatsoever to watch. However, on Thursday night an episode aired that royally pissed off the antivaccine contingent, and that has to be a good thing. The episode, Contamination, featured a storyline in which an unvaccinated child shows up in the emergency room with the measles. The parents are antivaccine and totally buy into the myth that vaccines cause autism. They’re even totally into a full-on Jenny McCarthy panoply of “biomedical” quackery–I mean treatments, no, I mean quackery–for their autistic child.

The cranks at Age of Autism have mentioned it, but, from a couple of forwarded e-mails I’ve gotten, it appears that the real mercury militia has gone absolutely bonkers about this quite reasonable storyline. Indeed, in a certain antivaccination mailing list dedicated to a certain journalist’s fear mongering book, the loons are out in force. Charges of big pharma conspiracy are running rampant like:

The CDC can’t prove with science that vaccines are safe so they have
their PR office use fear to scare people into believing.

As if the CDC can dictate storylines to ABC. Yeah, that worked real well with Eli Stone, which, of course, the vaccine conspiracy mongers loved.

One of the participants even went to the trouble of transcribing the scenes relating to the storyline, for which I thank her. It’s rare to see such an unequivocal defense of vaccines worked into a storyline. I wonder if Jenny McCarthy’s activities may be producing a backlash. We can only hope. In any case, I think our antivaccine advocate’s work should see a wider audience, so here it is for your edification:

Private Practice
Season 2, Episode 1
Original Air Date: Jan. 8th, 2009
“Contamination”
Writer: Fred Einesman
Director: Kate Woods
Unofficial Transcript of Vaccine Storyline
By Christine Heeren
Regular characters: Addison, Pete, Naomi, Cooper, Charlotte, Dell, Sam and Violet (all doctors except Dell)
Additional Cast:
Jillian Armenante as Arlene (the mother)
-has a girl born in 2004

(There was more to this episode, but I’m just writing the info regarding the vaccine storyline)

SCENE ONE: Busy waiting room in doctor’s office. Kids throwing a ball around. Three boys and one girl (Betsey). The boys are all brothers, the oldest with autism, Jeffrey. The girl is the daughter of Dell, who works at the practice. The middle boy is Michael, youngest is William.

ARLENE: Oh Dr. Freedman!

COOPER: Arlene, Hi. Oh my god! Is this Michael? Dude, you’re a giant. Will, do you remember me? Hi Jeffrey. That’s a pretty cool plane. Hey, let’s go back. Come on.
(they walk into Cooper’s office)

COOPER: So, where have you been? It’s been two years.

ARLENE: I moved the boys to Switzerland, for Jeffrey. I found this great experimental program there for autistic children. Nontraditional therapy, megavitamins, diet modification, along with art, music therapy.

COOPER: How’s it been going?

ARLENE: Better, I think. His temper’s under control, a little more. He’s obsessed with airplanes. Sometimes he’ll even talk to you.

COOPER: Wow.

ARLENE: As long as it’s about planes.

COOPER: Planes are good. Talking about planes… even better.

(Cooper hands Jeffrey a toy airplane from his office shelf)

COOPER: How’s his health otherwise?

ARLENE: Oh Jeffrey’s fine. It’s Michael actually. He caught a cold on the plane. Probably just some bug. But, you know. I wanted to be safe.

(Cooper lifts Michael up on the exam table)

COOPER: How’d you like Switzerland Michael?

MICHAEL: They had a cable car and there’s this one place where you could take a chocolate tour.

(Cooper is feeling the boy’s neck)

More joking around with the kids while Cooper does the exam.

COOPER: 102. Does your throat hurt, Michael?

MICHAEL: No.

COOPER: OK. Open up for me, big and wide. Tilt your head back.

ARLENE: (all concerned) Dr. Freedman? What is it? What’s wrong? (end of scene)

SCENE TWO: Naomi & Addison are chatting it up in the break room. Cooper comes running in.

COOPER: We have to close the doors.

ADDISON: See, even Cooper realizes Pacific Wellcare is putting us out of business

COOPER: No, we have to close the doors. My patient has the measles and was in reception for half an hour running around. Everyone that was out- all our patients this morning where exposed.

ADDISON: Measles? My pregnant patients and the elderly…

COOPER: All at risk.

ADDISON: We HAVE to close the doors.

COOPER: We have to close the doors.

SCENE THREE: All the doctors in the hallway with about 20 patients.

ADDISON: I’m sorry for the inconvience, but the virus stays airborne for up to 4 hours. We need to make sure everyone who was exposed has been immunized.

PREGNANT WOMAN: Excuse me? Can I get the shot now? I have a lunch at 12:30.

ADDISON: Sorry. It contains a live virus. It’s not safe to take when you’re pregnant. But, if your blood comes back and your antibodies are low, then we can treat it with immunoglobulin.

WOMAN: And if that doesn’t work? Doesn’t measles lead to birth defects?

ADDISON: Let’s not get ahead of ourselves, okay?

SAM: We need to notify LA County Health. They are going to want to do a complete survey. I know.

Addison gives annoying look

ADDISON: And they are always awful. And if we didn’t have enough to do this morning.

SAM: OK. I have a light day. You have to deal with this. I’ll speak to the health department. I’m in the mood for a fight.

SCENE FOUR: (back in Cooper’s office)

ARLENE: Will’s fine.

COOPER: But, he hasn’t been vaccinated and he’s at risk to get this.

ARLENE: It’s the measles. When my parents were growing up everyone got it.

COOPER: And hundreds of people died from it every year. The vaccine changed-

ARLENE: Don’t even think of suggesting-

COOPER: There’s no proven link between vaccinations and autism.

ARLENE: It’s not just me. I have talked to dozens of parents. You vaccinated Jeffrey, and it was like a light went out inside him, and he’s living in some parallel world. (They show Jeffrey rocking while playing with cars)

COOPER: Arlene-

ARLENE: You don’t live with him. So don’t ask me to risk Will too.

Dell walks out of his office with his daughter (about 6 yrs old) and sees Cooper.

DELL: Hey, I can’t get a hold of Betsey’s Mom. I don’t know if she’s been immunized.

COOPER: Most kids have been.

DELL: You don’t know her mother, okay? She forgot to pick her up. You think she remembered doctor visits? Should I just give her the shot to be sure? I mean she played with that kid for like a half- hour.

COOPER: You have 24 hours to give the vaccine. So wait for the Mom and ask, spare her the needle if you can.

SCENE FIVE (all the doctors together)

ADDISON: Grab a chart. We’re checking every patient who was in here this morning for immunization.

SAM: How many of these are we looking at, Coop?

COOPER: How many what?

SAM: These little time bombs- kids coming in without their vaccinations.

COOPER: The vast majority of my practice is pro-vaccine.

NAOMI: Whether or not to vaccinate should not even be open for debate.

COOPER: It isn’t. But, I agree with the Academy of American Pediatrics that we shouldn’t abandon patients who chose not to vaccinate.

PETE: (holistic type doctor) Cooper’s right. You can’t kick a kid out just because the parents believe in a conspiracy theory about vaccines.

SAM: The CDC is clear vaccines do not CAUSE autism. They save lives. That’s the end of the story.

DELL: Hey, I was just in the pediatric waiting area with Betsey. This is Michael’s Mom’s and she left it in the lobby.

(They go on how the family was on another floor)

SCENE SIX (Health Dept. Lady arrives)

SAM: OK. So that’s it. Everyone’s been immunized. Anybody that was here has been contacted. You can refile all of these immunication records.

HEALTH DEPT. LADY: Oh no you can’t (to Dell).

SAM: OK. So that’s it. Everyone’s been immunized. Anybody that was here has been contacted. You can refile all of these immunization records.

SONYA: Oh no he can’t (to Dell). Sonya Nichola. County Health Department. I’m gonna need those.

SAM: Sam Bennet. I, uh, I called you (laughs).

SONYA: Are those all the immunization records?

DELL: Yeah, this is everything

SONYA: Okay, I want the vaccination records of all the patients in your practice, and then after I interview all personnel and review their employment certificates, I’ll need to inspect your isolation facilities.

SAM: Well, we don’t have, isolation facilities per se, uh, but- well- wait. We, uh, we provide for rooms.

SONYA: Are not up to current guidelines?

SAM: We just…

SONYA: Or are you aware of the recent changes in those standards?

Dell shakes his head “NO”.

SAM: This isn’t gonna be very much fun, is it? (laughs and smiles)

SONYA: You want to show me around? (seriously)

SAM: Yeah. All right. This way.

SCENE SEVEN Mom brings Michael into hospital. Cooper is there too looking at child in bed.

ARLENE: His fever was 104 by the time I got home. I couldn’t get it down.

COOPER: How you feeling, Michael?

MICHAEL: I’m really cold and my stomach hurts.

ARLENE: He vomited twice

COOPER: His lungs are congested.

Child starts violently coughing.

COOPER: OK. OK. We got you. It’s OK. (to child) We’re gonna get you some fluids and we’ll bring that fever down and you’ll feel better. (to nurse) I need a nasal cannula at 2 liters, chest x-rays and cultures times two.

ARLENE: I don’t understand. Why is he so sick?

COOPER: Arlene, measles is serious. It can lead to pneumonia, encephalitis, all sorts of other complications. (to nurse) Notify peds ICU. We need an isolation room.

SCENE EIGHT Hospital waiting area right outside of Michael’s room. Arlene is sitting with her two other boys. Jeffrey the one with autism is sitting quietly, playing with an airplane.

COOPER: Michael’s resting now. His fever’s down. But he’s still having trouble breathing.

ARLENE: My husband is- is still in Switzerland. You don’t think he needs to fly back?

COOPER: If it was my son, I’d come.

They show child in bed with his face all red and bumpy.

COOPER: Arlene, we need to talk about Will (other child).

ARLENE: I know. I told you no- no vaccinations.

COOPER: I don’t think you can risk putting Will through what Michael’s going through.

ARLENE: I can’t risk putting Will through what Jeffrey’s gone through. I lost one child to autism. I can’t lose another.

COOPER: Arlene, you won’t.

ARLENE: Don’t you think seeing Michael in there like that… I would do anything for my kids. I can’t. Look at him. (Jeffrey playing with airplane) Don’t you remember when he was 2, that smile? He’s light up the room. And then you vaccinated him and that kid vanished. Those vaccines took him away. I don’t care what you know. I know what I know. I know what I lost. I can’t risk it again.

SCENE NINE Back in the break room- all the doctors talk about the situation- like they usually do.

DELL: I can’t believe the health department lady is making us jump through all these hoops.

SAM: She’s horrible.

ADDISON: How’s Michael? (to Cooper)

COOPER: Not good. And Arlene still won’t let me vaccinate Will.

SAM: You should call family services.

VIOLET: You serious?

(she’s a psych)

SAM: Yes, It’s child abuse. She’s knowingly putting her son at risk for getting really sick.

ADDISON: That’s irresponsible.

VIOLET: It’s a parent’s decision.

DELL: Yeah, well, if I find out that Heather didn’t vaccinate Betsey I’ll report her.

(Heather is his ex-girlfriend who he got addicted to drugs)

SONYA: (Health Dept. Worker) Can I see you a moment, Dr Bennett?

SAM: Perfect

(He leaves)

ADDISON: That can’t be good.

COOPER: Sam’s right. I gotta call.

VIOLET: Calling DCFS while her other child is still in the hospital would just be cruel.

COOPER: Cruel? Putting another child in danger is cruel. Exposing a city to measles is cruel.

PETE: Violet’s right. You can’t fault the mother because she chose not to-

COOPER: Of course you’re gonna agree with Violet. You’re sleeping with her.

PETE: I agree with her because she’s right… (they go on about sex)

Then Sam and Sonya talk about protocol. It’s all about setting up a conflict so they can hook up at the end of the show.

SCENE TEN Dell’s office. Dell and his daughter are hanging out. Dell’s ex walks in and talks about a job interview. They go into the hallway to talk alone.

DELL: You couldn’t call? You leave your daughter alone all day and you don’t call?

HEATHER: I forgot my phone.

DELL: Are you using?

HEATHER: No. No. Look. I know you’re mad. But, I knew she was safe with you, OK? I couldn’t leave to make a call. I didn’t want to blow this interview.

DELL: Well, she’s not safe, OK? She was exposed to the measles today and I don’t even know if she’s been vaccinated because I’m not around enough and you…
(they look at the little girl, around 6, playing with her dolls)

DELL: Is she vaccinated?

HEATHER: Um

DELL: You don’t know, do you?

HEATHER: No. (Dell walks back into the room with disgust)

Next scene Pete and Addison are talking about relationships. It’s not about vaccines, but I thought this line was interesting considering the rest of the episode.

PETE: I just think people should be left to decide things for themselves.

SCENE ELEVEN Back to Michael’s ICU room. Charlotte is there. She’s a doctor who once dated Cooper. The mother is stroking Michael’s hair lovingly.

CHARLOTTE: You know what I got here?

COOPER: I’m not in the mood, Charlotte.

CHARLOTTE: Public health notifications, isolation requirements, incident reports, CDC surveys.

COOPER: We all have jobs to do.

CHARLOTTE: I have jobs I’m not able to do because I’m dealing with the mess you made.

COOPER: I have a mom who feels like she lost one son to autism and may be losing another one to measles. And she’s got another one sitting out here exposed. And maybe I’m just not persuasive enough, but he’s vulnerable and she’s not gonna let me do anything about it. So, I’m really sorry if they piled on some paperwork for you, but I don’t need crap from you right now.

Mom comes running out of the room in a panic.

ARLENE: He can’t breath.

Next scene Dell discusses with Heather how he wants full custody to “keep her safe”.

SCENE TWELVE: Michael’s ICU room. Cooper, Charlotte and a nurse are working on Michael. The mother is in the room. They have some breathing thing on Michael’s face. They keep showing the monitor with his heart rate going down.

COOPER: It’s won’t pass. His throat’s too swollen.

CHARLOTTE: Get the fiberoptic scope now. We gotta ventilate him. Heart rate is dropping. Sats are bottoming out.

COOPER: (yells) Where’s the damn scope?

CHARLOTTE: It’s coming Cooper.

COOPER: Open up the surgical tray. I’m gonna cric him. Hold this.

ARLENE: What-What is that? What are you gonna do?
Just wait. Coop. The scope’s coming.

COOPER: His heart’s 40. I’m doing this. Betadine.

CHARLOTTE: Wait. Wait! (guy running into room).
Cooper was about to cut the boy’s throat. They put the thing on him.
Cooper can see down his throat.

CHARLOTTE: Slowly. Easy does it.

COOPER: Almost there. I got it. (he’s breathing now and apb goes up)

CHARLOTTE: Sounds good.

ARLENE: He’s gonna be OK?
Cooper gives the mother a look like “you bitch” and walks out.

COOPER: (to nurse) Set the vent at a F102 of 100, rate of 24. I need a minute.
Cooper leaves the room and walks over to the two other children. He lovingly touches Jeffrey’s head.

COOPER: Hey, I’ll watch’em for a minute. (hospital worker leaves)

COOPER: Hey. Come here. Come here for a second. (puts Will on chair)

COOPER: One second. (starts rolling up Will’s sleeve. Jeffrey is watching)

ARLENE: Get the hell away from my son

WILL: (screams) MOMMY!

ARLENE: You have to stop. (Charlotte grabs mom’s arm and holds her back)

CHARLOTTE: Your son is dying in there.

ARLENE: Get the hell away from me. (to Charlotte)

CHARLOTTE: Mrs. Perkins. Please.

(Will whimpers as Cooper gives him the vaccine)

ARLENE: NO!!!!!!!

COOPER: Good.

Everyone looks at each other.

SCENE THIRTEEN Hospital waiting room again.

ARLENE: Will, are you ok?

Will shakes his head “YES”.

COOPER: The vaccine is safe.

ARLENE: You don’t know!

COOPER: It is.

ARLENE: Look at him and tell me if it is. (speaking of Jeffrey)

CHARLOTTE: Vaccines are the standard of care. Dr. Freedman did something that was medically necessary.

ARLENE: He assaulted my son! And I am going to sue this hospital, so help me, if something happens to him.

COOPER: I did what I felt I had to.

ARLENE: It wasn’t yours to do. It’s wasn’t yours to do.

LOUD SPEAKER: Code blue ICU, Code Blue ICU.
They all go running back into Michael’s room.

SCENE FOURTEEN Michael’s ICU room.
Charlotte and Cooper are working on Michael as Arlene looks on. Michael dies.

CHARLOTTE: Asystole. I can’t find a pulse.

COOPER: Resuming CPR. Around round of epi. (Cooper keeps working on him)

CHARLOTTE: Cooper, we’ve done everything. It’s been over a half hour.

COOPER: Where’s the atropine. Come on! (screams)

CHARLOTTE: It’s time to call it.

COOPER: I’m running the code. I decide when we’re done.

ARLENE: Please… don’t stop.

(Cooper stops)

COOPER: Time of death- 3:37

(they start turning everything off)
Arlene is crying and goes over to Michael.

ARLENE: Michael? He just learned to tie his shoes. He can’t be gone. Not like this. Michael…

She holds him crying hysterically and saying “Oh Michael” over and over.
Emotional piano music playing in background.

SCENE FIFTEEN Cooper and Arlene in waiting room. Charlotte is watching them.

ARLENE: (crying) I thought… It was gonna be… like a cold. I was trying to protect him.

(she looks at 2 other sons- Jeffrey is rocking) Cooper puts his hand on her knee, then back. Arlene gets up, still crying, grabs Will and holds him. Sits next to Jeffrey. Then puts her other arm around Jeffrey and holds both boys at the same time, still crying. Charlotte walks over to Cooper and sits down next to him.

CHARLOTTE: You did everything you could.

I will admit that the part of the story where Cooper forcibly vaccinates the child against her mother’s wishes was over the top. However, the rest was about as stridently pro-vaccine as I could imagine. Maybe ABC is finally trying to make up for its sin of Eli Stone early last year.

Comments

  1. #1 DLC
    January 11, 2009

    Woohoo! some of my favorite blogs are back in action!

    Glad to see some pro-vaccine TV. As I said elsewhere, vaccines are such a safe, effective and low-cost preventive measure that nobody should be dying of vaccine-preventable disease.

  2. #2 Alan Kellogg
    January 11, 2009

    But some people will. Why? Because nothing is 100% effective. Sometimes the vaccine just doesn’t work. If I had a nickel for every ‘should’ somebody insisted on I’d have a maxed out MacTel Quad with 30″ monitor and all the fixin’s.

  3. #3 Charlie B.
    January 11, 2009

    Point is, Alan, that even if the vaccine doesn’t take in a small percentage of the population, but everyone has taken the vaccine, the disease can still be eradicated. Herd immunity. Viral diseases simply can’t spread or take hold if the percentage of susceptible people is very small. Problem in, say, the UK in recent years, thanks to Wakefield and his quackery, is that that percentage has now been exceeded, and measles is spreading again.

    Good to see this show dealing with the issue responsibly.

  4. #4 Charlie B.
    January 11, 2009

    Point is, Alan, that even if the vaccine doesn’t take in a small percentage of the population, but everyone has taken the vaccine, the disease can still be eradicated. Herd immunity. Viral diseases simply can’t spread or take hold if the percentage of susceptible people is very small. Problem in, say, the UK in recent years, thanks to Wakefield and his quackery, is that that percentage has now been exceeded, and measles is spreading again.

    Good to see this show dealing with the issue responsibly.

  5. #5 Charlie B.
    January 11, 2009

    Point is, Alan, that even if the vaccine doesn’t take in a small percentage of the population, but everyone has taken the vaccine, the disease can still be eradicated. Herd immunity. Viral diseases simply can’t spread or take hold if the percentage of susceptible people is very small. Problem in, say, the UK in recent years, thanks to Wakefield and his quackery, is that that percentage has now been exceeded, and measles is spreading again.

    Good to see this show dealing with the issue responsibly.

  6. #6 MPL
    January 11, 2009

    It’s true, most vaccines aren’t 100% effective. Some fail on some patients, others only decrease the patient’s odds of catching the disease, not eliminate it altogether.

    Which is exactly why universal vaccination is so important. MMR can’t protect every individual, but it can make the entire population resistant enough that the disease just dies out. Anti-vaccine parents aren’t just endangering their children’s health, they’re endangering everybody’s children.

  7. #7 eddie
    January 11, 2009

    Whu what happened?

    I fell asleep halfway through scene 1.

    OASN – It’s reported over here that there’ a surge in measles cases and it’s correlated with the low uptake of MMR. Why isn’t Wakefield in jail yet?

  8. #8 Brian
    January 11, 2009

    Over at the ABC forums, someone’s posted a Geier study to prove their point. Haven’t had the chance to look at it yet, thought you’d be interested in dismantling it yourselves.

    http://www.pharmalot.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/thimerosal-vaccine-study.pdf

  9. #9 Neuroskeptic
    January 11, 2009

    I can’t remember the exact quote but there’s a bit on House where House meets a woman who wants to not vaccinate her kid and he issues her with a cutting put-down…

  10. #10 Brian
    January 11, 2009

    Over at the ABC forums, someone’s posted a Geier study to prove their point. Haven’t had the chance to look at it yet, thought you’d be interested in dismantling it yourselves.

    http://www.pharmalot.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/thimerosal-vaccine-study.pdf

  11. #11 Brian
    January 11, 2009

    Never mind. Looks to be the same one Epi Wonk took down last May. Carry on.

  12. #12 Mike
    January 11, 2009

    You guys have seen pro-vaccine episode of “House”? Was it discussed here?

  13. #13 James F
    January 11, 2009

    NBC’s ER did a vaccine storyline back in 2001. An unvaccinated child ultimately dies from the measles. The anti-vax crowd apparently went nuts. I was only slightly aware of the issue at the time, but I remember it caused quite a stir.

  14. #14 Charlie B.
    January 11, 2009

    Oops, sorry about the multi-post earlier, it was giving server errors.

    Neuroskeptic – yes, that’s in the first season, the second episode. Transcript here:

  15. #15 Rogue Medic
    January 11, 2009

    If this show is criticized as insensitive or heavy handed, what would the anti-vaccinationists say about their own methods of propaganda?

    The difference between anti-vaccinationists’ claims and the claims of those who encourage the use of vaccines – vaccines are supported by science.

    Anti-vaccinationists’ claims are supported by a misunderstanding of statistics. The same kind of misunderstanding that leads a person to gamble what they cannot afford to lose. They just know, or they have a can’t miss system, or some other demonstration of ignorance. Anti-vaccinationists are gambling with the lives of their children, the lives of other children, and the lives of those with weakened immune systems. The odds are against them. Eventually a lot of people will be killed by their ignorance.

    The use of vaccines is also supported by history. How much of the increased life expectancy in the past 100 years is due to vaccines? The main reason life expectancy improves significantly is by a decrease in the deaths of infants and children.

    Why are the anti-vaccinationists trying to kill infants and children?

    Why do so many in the media seem to go along with the anti-vaccinationists’ plan to kill infants and children?

  16. #16 chat
    January 11, 2009

    OK, it’s nice that he wants those laws to continue to apply, and it lowers his crackpot index a little …

  17. #17 The Perky Skeptic
    January 11, 2009

    I’m glad to see a mainstream media taking a pro-vaccine stance. Nearly as glad as I am to see SCIENCEBLOGS BACK ON, WHOOOOOO!!!! :D

  18. #18 Annie
    January 11, 2009

    They put the issue of the parents not changing their minds not matter how serious the situation. Which is what I got from the NPR story. If her child being really really sick doesn’t change her mind, what will it take? A new science based admin? Handsome hottie actors saying vaccines are safe? Maybe a real discovery of root cause for Autism?

    Or maybe doctors refusing to treat families who do not vaccine.

    I encourage that one. Nothing like waiting in a waiting room full of kids when you are on 4 immune supressants. Or maybe all doctors will be required to have 2 waiting rooms. One for maybe contagious people and the other non contagious ones? More costs for you doctors, opps there goes another 1000 family doctors into another field, which is another point being made in the show. I’ve always understood having to wait a certain amount of time. Not an hour every time but emergencies happen. Now I don’t want to go and wait even 5 minutes. People hacking all around you and they don’t even cover their mouths. You don’t even know who was sitting in the chair before you. There should be posters on the wall and the coughers at least be on one side of the room. With boxes of kleenex and instructions on how to use them. Kids on leashes (opps, ok guess not), cages? (opps, ok guess not). No kids on Tuesdays?

    Annie

  19. #19 Maria
    January 11, 2009

    eddie asks “Why isn’t Wakefield in jail yet?”

    Well he hasn’t (yet) been charged with a criminal offence, in fact the GMC inquiry hasn’t even finished yet.

    More to the point is why, in spite of the mountains of evidence that he is a liar and fraudster without an ounce of integrity, does he have so many supporters?

    Thanks the post and for showing us transcript of the soap, orac. Warms the cockles of my heart to read it.

  20. #20 Orac
    January 11, 2009

    Reading over the transcript again, I see one other annoying thing. Namely when one of the docs says “the CDC is clear about this.” It’s an argument from authority unlikely to sway, even though the CDC is correct in this instance. A better way to have written it would have been to say that “numerous large, well-designed studies have shown that vaccines aren’t associated with autism.”

  21. #21 Indy
    January 11, 2009

    I enjoyed the show. I think the best course of action is to drown out the anti-vaxers. Post your support and try and catch a future episode of the show. Tell your friends to check out the episode (it’s available instantly). The best way to continue to get more realistic portrayals of vaccination is to show Hollywood they get more support when they get it right.

  22. #22 trrll
    January 11, 2009

    I don’t think that we should be referring people to fictional shows, accurate or not, for medical information. But it is nice to see some a store based on reality to balance some of the nonsense on shows like Eli Stone.

  23. #23 J. J. Ramsey
    January 11, 2009

    Brian: “Never mind. Looks to be the same one Epi Wonk took down last May. Carry on”

    You mean this?

    She examines the data and sees that in certain cohorts in her study population the distribution of autism isn’t quite what she would like. So she “imputes” autism cases into the data set. Except that she’s not imputing a value on a variable for an existing study participant. She’s adding imaginary autism cases into the analysis. This isn’t imputation — it’s cooking the data. Sorry folks, but when you have a data set that comes from the real world with certain number of cases and non-cases, the data are what they are.

    From http://epiwonk.com/?p=55

  24. #24 Indy
    January 11, 2009

    No one is saying to refer people to the show for medical information. My post simply suggests people support a show that doesn’t pander to the anti-vaxers. Show them that making a show that supports vaccination will increase their ratings, much to the disappointment of the AoA crowd.

  25. #25 AHPeterson
    January 11, 2009

    I don’t think we should be pro or anti vaccine. I think we should worry about the HEALTH AND SAFETY of all children. I am not anti-vaccine, but I am not blindly trusting of the schedule that we have. The show was an awful one-sided view that was so obviously one-sided, it is going to hurt the vaccine side. Vaccines are not 100 percent safe (nothing is). I think that it is important to look at each child and their health and individuality to see what their bodies are healthy enough to handle. The MMR vaccine is 3 LIVE viruses injected at one time, into a 12 month old baby, and the same amount is injected into a 15 lb. baby as a 26 lb baby. That is not right. Personally I am vaccinating my child, but I am seperating out the MMR. It is a pain in the butt, but worth it to me, b/c he cousin had a severe reaction to the MMR. I don’t nec. know that the MMR causes AUTISM per say. but if parents are saying that it caused a reaction in their kids that mimics it, we need to pay attention. It is not only the mmr that babies have reactions to, it is Hep B, and all of the other ones. The APA and drs. need to take time with parents a create a schedule for each kid as an individual to limit risks and adverse reactions and make parents feel more comfortable if they truly want to see more people vaccinate. Measles was grossly portrayed as well. 1 in 1000 people die of measles statistically now, not the majority who get it. For someone to suggest that I am abusive to my child b/c I am giving his vaccines over time instead of all at once b/c I don’t think his immune system should deal with all of of those diseases at once, infuriates me. I respect anyone’s decision to vaccinate their child. Do not try to make me feel like a bad parent when I have done my research and seen adverse reactions to vaccines. It would be easy for the government and drs. and pharmacetical companies to take care of a lot of this angst if they would just make the seperated MMR Vaccines more readily available. That way parents could give them one at a time over a period of a few months and feel more comfortable with it. Last night’s show disgusted me though and I won’t be watching any abc shows again. It was incredibly offensive to me. No one knows better than a mother what affects their child and causes something, especially not a dr. who hadn’t noticed he hadn’t heard from them in 2 yrs.

  26. #26 Jay Gordon
    January 11, 2009

    Dumb.

    Unintelligent, factually-absurd, sensationalizing TV show.

    Dave, how on earth do you have time to waste on this?

    Next thing we know, you’ll be analyzing the double entendre in “Sponge Bob.”

    Anyone here want to comment on the date of the last measles fatality in the USA?

    Jay

  27. #27 Danio
    January 11, 2009

    I haven’t ever been able to make it through a full episode of PP, (not that I’ve tried that many times) but this plotline is definitely a refreshing counterpoint to the front page piece that appeared in my local newspaper yesterday: seems the vaccine compliance rates in my community are so low they’ve piqued the interest of the CDC (see “vaccine resisters attract attention” if you’re interested).

    I’m feeling very helpless about how to combat this. Orac makes an excellent point about the futility of argument from authority, and in communities such as this one, there is a prevalent anti-establishment view that allows these and other woo-rich ideas to flourish.
    I don’t believe vaccination against parents’ wishes is the answer either, but there’s got to be a more proactive way to deal with this dangerous nonsense on a community level without provoking accusations of Orwellian regimes.

  28. #28 speedwell
    January 11, 2009

    “Anyone here want to comment on the date of the last measles fatality in the USA?”

    I think we’re all busy commenting on the probable date of the next measles fatality, Jay.

  29. #29 speedwell
    January 11, 2009

    “Anyone here want to comment on the date of the last measles fatality in the USA?”

    I think we’re all busy commenting on the probable date of the next measles fatality, Jay.

  30. #30 Jefrir
    January 11, 2009

    AHPeterson, spreading the vaccines out does not make you a bad parent, although it is almost certainly unnecessary. If done properly it causes no harm beyond the breif pain of the extra injections. However, the trouble with doing it more widely is that it vastly increases the chance that a vaccination will be missed – more vaccinations means more chance of losing track of which the child has had. It also means more appointments and so more use of resources and more expence, either to the parents or to the health service, depending on where you are. It may be okay for a few children whose parents are concerned and will definitely make sure that all the vaccinations are down, but it’s not so good as a general strategy.

  31. #31 trrll
    January 11, 2009

    I don’t think we should be pro or anti vaccine. I think we should worry about the HEALTH AND SAFETY of all children.

    Doctors, public health experts and other people who are familiar with the medical literature and the safety record of vaccines are pro-vaccine because they are concerned with the health and safety of all children.

    Vaccines are not 100 percent safe (nothing is).

    Absolutely. The suggestion that 100% safety is a reasonable expectation of anything is insane. In real life, we consider the risks and benefits of everything we do–the foods we eat, where we live, how we entertain ourselves, and how we treat illness and protect ourselves from disease. And with vaccines, the risk-benefit relationship is overwhelmingly in favor of vaccination. Foods are not 100% safe. Is that an argument in favor of starvation?

    I think that it is important to look at each child and their health and individuality to see what their bodies are healthy enough to handle.

    This is done routinely. All normal children are able to handle vaccines, but the vaccine schedule is modified in the rare individual cases, such as immune deficiencies, where a child is not healthy enough to handle vaccination.

    The MMR vaccine is 3 LIVE viruses injected at one time, into a 12 month old baby, and the same amount is injected into a 15 lb. baby as a 26 lb baby. That is not right.

    Getting measles or mumps is not “right” either. So which is less right? All of the evidence indicates that the MMR carries negligible risk compared to the diseases that it protects against, so you’d need pretty strong evidence to support the claim that there is a benefit to delaying the vaccine sufficient to offset the risk of prolonging disease susceptibility.

    Personally I am vaccinating my child, but I am seperating out the MMR. It is a pain in the butt, but worth it to me, b/c he cousin had a severe reaction to the MMR. I don’t nec. know that the MMR causes AUTISM per say.

    It sounds to me as if you are taking an unnecessary risk. The MMR has been extensively used, and its high safety is well established, as is the fact that it does not cause autism. Are multiple vaccinations equally safe? One could certainly imagine that while the risk of vaccination is small, there might well some fixed risk with each injection, independent of the number of antigens included. You might well be exposing your kids to something like triple the risk of the MMR. It’s such a small risk anyway that it probably doesn’t much matter–triple a negligible risk is still pretty small. Nevertheless, I’m surprised that you would choose to experiment on your own children in this way.

    Measles was grossly portrayed as well. 1 in 1000 people die of measles statistically now, not the majority who get it.

    Would you find that a great comfort if that was your child that died or was mentally disabled from measles, especially considering that there was likely no benefit to avoiding or delaying the vaccination that might have saved your child’s life? After all, the frequency of adverse reactions to vaccines is much, much lower than 1 in 1000.

  32. #32 Indy
    January 11, 2009

    Jay, Thanks to your valiant efforts we will soon be able to track those statistics again! Of course, you will have to share that honor with Ms. McCarthy as well, hopefully she won’t hog all of the limelight.

  33. #33 Orac
    January 11, 2009

    Dumb.

    Unintelligent, factually-absurd, sensationalizing TV show.

    Orac, how on earth do you have time to waste on this?

    Next thing we know, you’ll be analyzing the double entendre in “Sponge Bob.”

    Anyone here want to comment on the date of the last measles fatality in the USA?

    But, Dr. Jay, the episode may seem sensationalistic now, but, believe me, if you and Jenny keep up your current efforts, all too soon this episode may not seem nearly as ridiculous as it seems to you now. Indeed, it may seem like a “ripped from the headlines” storyline.

    By the way, I notice that you have not bothered to comment on three posts that may interest you. First, one by me commenting on your appearance on The Doctors:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/12/run_dont_walk_from_these_doctors.php

    And one by Dr. Steve Novella:

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=301

    And one by someone we all “know and love”:

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=256

    Since you’ve decided to start commenting on blogs again, perhaps you would do me the solid of poping over to those posts and letting Steve, me, and a “friend” know your opinion.

  34. #34 Rogue Medic
    January 11, 2009

    AHPeterson writes, Measles was grossly portrayed as well. 1 in 1000 people die of measles statistically now, not the majority who get it.

    And in the show only one child died, or were you watching something else?

    How is that a misrepresentation?

    As Jay Gordon points out, unintentionally, when more children start to die from these diseases that had been controlled, we will be nostalgic for the times when people could not remember when the last child died of Measles in the USA.

    For someone to suggest that I am abusive to my child b/c I am giving his vaccines over time instead of all at once b/c I don’t think his immune system should deal with all of of those diseases at once, infuriates me.

    Your are infuriated that people point out the unnecessary danger you create for your child. I guess nobody knows better than a misinformed mother.

    I respect anyone’s decision to vaccinate their child.

    There is no sensible reason not to.

    Last night’s show disgusted me though and I won’t be watching any abc shows again. It was incredibly offensive to me.

    Incredibly?

    I don’t believe it.

    No one knows better than a mother what affects their child and causes something,

    Then I assume you never take your children to any doctor. This is some sort of new scientific discovery. You will probably receive the Nobel Prize in diagnostics. Don’t worry, they will make the category just for you.

  35. #35 Dr Benway
    January 11, 2009

    Jay Gordon:

    Next thing we know, you’ll be analyzing the double entendre in “Sponge Bob.”

    Yah. Serious MDs don’t bother with fluffy TV prolefeed and all that celebrity nonsense.

  36. #36 Chris
    January 11, 2009

    Dr. Jay said “Anyone here want to comment on the date of the last measles fatality in the USA?”

    According to this table:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf … it was in 2003. Your point?

    Do not forget that in 1990 California’s Medi-Cal paid a big price in measles (do you ever read medical journals?):
    West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.
    Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.Chavez GF, Ellis AA.
    California Department of Health Services, Sacramento, USA.
    “Hospital costs amounted to $18 million, two thirds of which was paid for by Medi-Cal. Measles is a serious disease that can result in severe complications requiring lengthy and costly hospital stays. We must remain alert to its continuing threat, complications, and resulting financial burdens.” (PubMed Number 8855680 … because I am at my two URL limit)

    Also, do not forget the people who became deaf and possibly sterile when mumps swept through the Midwest in 2006:
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5520a4.htm

    AHPeterson said “Personally I am vaccinating my child, but I am seperating out the MMR.”

    What makes you think that is safer? You are actually TRIPLING the chance of allergic reaction or other local vaccine reaction. Plus stretching it out increases the chances of getting the actual disease when there are people who are actually dragging unvaccinated infected kids out in public (which has happened in California, Washington, Indiana, and elsewhere recently).

    Also, why do you think that the attenuated live virus given at over a year old is worse than all the real full force microbes your child is in contact with everyday… including those he/she sucks from your breast when you feed him, or from crawling around on the floor, or from the skin or breath of anyone in near proximity? Unless you live a sterile environment where you bleach everything, and disinfect your own skin all the time, you child is getting exposed to a huge magnitude greater load of antigens than is in any vaccine. Oh, and don’t get paranoid and start disinfecting everything, that may lead to allergy issues later.

    Think about it: On a recent NPR This American Life a ten month old baby was exposed to measles just by being in the same room as a child who had measles. The virus can stick around and infect a couple of hours after the infected child leaves. The baby became very ill, including a very high temperature and severe dehydration. The “live virus” in the MMR is not nearly as potent as the real thing, even if it is three separate types of viruses.

  37. #37 lytefoot
    January 11, 2009

    I have an acquaintance whose oldest child had a severe allergic reaction to the MMR vaccine. She discussed the risk factors with her pediatrician, and they decided not to vaccinate her other children. (I’m not privy to all the details here, so don’t ask me.)

    One of the major factors in this decision? Since other parents DO vaccinate their children, the chance of her children being exposed is small. Now, if you were this woman, what would your stance be on other people vaccinating their children? Rationally, you’d be for it, wouldn’t you? As the mother of three of the small percentage of children for whom vaccines are likely to be dangerous? So all the other children, for whom vaccines are safe, really SHOULD get them, to keep her kids from getting sick?

    Nope. She’s out evangelizing about how bad her kid’s reaction was, and why other people shouldn’t do it. The stupid, it burns.

  38. #38 Tariqistan
    January 11, 2009

    Anyone here want to comment on the date of the last measles fatality in the USA?

    Counting Jenny’s appearance on RAW?

  39. #39 Dangerous Bacon
    January 11, 2009

    “Jay Gordon”: “Anyone here want to comment on the date of the last measles fatality in the USA?”

    To follow up on what another poster cited, here’s more from the CDC:

    “Although ongoing measles transmission was declared eliminated in the United States in 2000″ (one guess how that happened, “Jay”) “and in the World Health Organization (WHO) Region of the Americas in 2002 (2), approximately 20 million cases of measles occur each year worldwide. The 2008 upsurge in measles cases serves as a reminder that measles is still imported into the United States and can result in outbreaks unless population immunity remains high through vaccination. Among the 64 confirmed measles cases (from 1/1/08 through 4/25/08), prior vaccination could be documented for only one person.”

    (Read that over again. 63 of the 64 measles cases involved individuals who were known to be unvaccinated or had no documented vaccination.)

    “Before introduction of measles vaccination in 1963, approximately 3 to 4 million persons had measles annually in the United States; approximately 400–500 died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 1,000 developed chronic disability from measles encephalitis (1). Even after elimination of endemic transmission in 2000, imported measles has continued to create a substantial U.S. public health burden; of the 501 measles cases reported during 2000–2007, one in four patients was hospitalized, and one in 250 died (1).”

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm57e501a1.htm

    So there are some answers for you. Having nostalgia for the good old days?

    Personally, I have major doubts that the person posting here as “Jay Gordon” is really Jay Gordon M.D., Jenny McCarthy’s pediatrician and celebrity antivax doctor. No pediatrician could possibly be this clueless about preventable infectious diseases and immunization, could they?

    The real Dr. Gordon should step up and repudiate this apparent impostor. Jay, he’s making you look really, really bad. :(

  40. #40 D. C. Sessions
    January 11, 2009

    Unintelligent, factually-absurd, sensationalizing TV show.
    Dave, how on earth do you have time to waste on this?

    Damn. Talk about projection. Well, except maybe the “unintelligent” part.

    As for time wasting — it’s all relative. How much time has Orac spent on this, compared to your flying around trying to persuade parents to risk their kids’ health and lives?

  41. #41 Tariqistan
    January 11, 2009

    To follow up on what another poster cited, here’s more from the CDC:

    Facts have a pro-vaccine bias.

  42. #42 AutismNewsBeat
    January 11, 2009

    Dr. Gordon, is it fair to call you Jenny McCarthy’s science advisor? If not, then who told her vaccines contain anti-freeze and ether?

  43. #43 D. C. Sessions
    January 11, 2009

    Anyone here want to comment on the date of the last measles fatality in the USA?

    CDC Wonder is currently only searchable to 2004 [1], but there were about one per year up to 2003 (including one in 2003.

    It’s scary that someone is giving parents medical advice about diseases but doesn’t even keep up with the MMWR summaries.

    [1] Ask Dr. Gerberding about that one.

  44. #44 Leni
    January 11, 2009

    I just wanted to reiterate to Jay the points about the social costs of outbreaks.

    Death isn’t the only measure available, and in cases where the risks are relatively small it might not even be the most important consideration. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t vaccinate or that the other risks and consequences are not considerable.

    Some reasons have been mentioned, including the prevention of complications resulting in disability and birth defects and reduction in medical costs. But there is also the matter of prevention of loss to businesses and schools that would have to be shut down in order to prevent further infections. Don’t forget about public transportation, public services and government operations. There are also those of us who can not be vaccinated or who may have compromised immune systems. Protecting ourselves helps to protect them.

    Given all this, advocating that people not vaccinate simply because they probably won’t die is irresponsible, short-sighted, and potentially very harmful. It’s downright stupid. It’s like saying people should smoke because they probably won’t die from it.

    Further, if most of us were not vaccinated and there was an outbreak, the public health system would likely become overwhelmed and we’d probably see higher death and complication rates as access to medical care shrank, particularly among vulnerable groups. So it is the very reality of widespread vaccination that permits you to make snide remarks about not that many people dying from the disease or outbreaks not being that catastrophic!

  45. #45 Melissa (oddharmonic)
    January 11, 2009

    @Mike, the episode of House where Dr. House makes the cutting remark about not vaccinating is the season one episode “Paternity” (ep. 102).

    In a minor storyline, Dr. House is doing a clinic consult for a baby whose mother repeats a Big Pharma canard as a reason for not vaccinating. House tells her, “The antibodies in yummy mummy only protect the kid for 6 months, which is why these companies think they can gouge you. They think that you’ll spend whatever they ask to keep your kid alive. Want to change things? Prove them wrong. A few hundred parents like you decide they’d rather let their kid die then cough up 40 bucks for a vaccination, believe me, prices will drop REALLY fast.”

  46. #46 Robster, FCD
    January 11, 2009

    Rather than repeat all the solid points that so many others have made regarding Jay Gordon’s post, I’d just like to add, in the voice of Nelson Muntz from The Simpsons. “HA HA!”

  47. #47 High-Ya
    January 11, 2009

    I have read with interest the commentary on autism and immunization – I wonder if someone with more time than I would look into the outlandish claims being made by Dr. Whitaker at the url listed above – I practice medicine on a daily basis in the gp/fp arena and believe in what I do – to have these kinds of quacks (Jenny) try to upset the cart and throw the whole ball of wax out the door with the bath water is driving me nuts – I do think there is some question as to the amount of corruption in the system we are operating in today re the fda and the cdc and or government in general being backed by big pharma and will look forward to any forthcoming discussion re outlandish claims supplanting evidence based practices.

  48. #48 High-Ya
    January 11, 2009

    Just for the record – the link behind my name is his url in the last post – this post should have my email should anyone wish to reply – unless a glitch in the system occurred with my last post and or this one. :0)

  49. #49 High-Ya
    January 11, 2009

    It appears the email address is not posted with your name but the url is – put the email in both this time

  50. #50 FreeSpeaker
    January 11, 2009

    Once again a purveyor of the anti-vaccine kool aid uses death as the only severe consequence of measles. Measles also causes life long disabilities.

    Are statisitics maintained on that?

  51. #51 Dr Benway
    January 11, 2009

    Hi High-Ya,

    I checked your link. I see, “Energy Essentials Plus” on sale for $89.96. The ad says, “Natural, drikable energy to help with your New Year’s resolution to exercise. Energy Essentials Plus helps:

    – Enhance direct energy production
    – Increase endurance
    – Improve blood flow and oxygenation to your muscles
    – Support peak performance and reduce recovery time

    Comments:
    – The ad doesn’t describe what’s in this product.
    – “Energy” is vague.
    – “Enhance” is vague.
    – I suppose “endurance” could be operationally defined as minutes on a treadmill at a certain speed. Something similar might be done for “peak performance” and “recovery time.” We don’t know if any studies with adequate controls were done to support these claims.
    – It’s a bit redundant, claiming to increase blood flow and oxygenation. I wonder how blood flow to muscles was measured.

    Why not write to Dr. Whitaker and ask for the published, peer reviewed research in support of these claims?

  52. #52 Dr Benway
    January 11, 2009

    Gosh, this is off topic.

    Well High-Ya, I found if I clicked on the ad, I went to a more detailed page which says that Energy Essentials Plus is ATP or adenosine triphosphate.

    I’m skeptical this product improves excercise performance, as I don’t see how oral ATP might help. It would be immediately hydrolized to ADP in the gut.

    Further, 1 glucose molecule can generate 36 ATP molecules via the Kreb’s cycle. So if you’d like more ATP in your mitochondria, eat some glucose.

    But excercise physiology isn’t my area of expertise. Perhaps extracellular ADP does something.

  53. #53 Dr Benway
    January 11, 2009

    Gosh, this is off topic.

    Well High-Ya, I found if I clicked on the ad, I went to a more detailed page which says that Energy Essentials Plus is ATP or adenosine triphosphate.

    I’m skeptical this product improves excercise performance, as I don’t see how oral ATP might help. It would be immediately hydrolized to ADP in the gut.

    Further, 1 glucose molecule can generate 36 ATP molecules via the Kreb’s cycle. So if you’d like more ATP in your mitochondria, eat some glucose.

    But excercise physiology isn’t my area of expertise. Perhaps extracellular ADP does something.

  54. #54 Skeptyk
    January 11, 2009

    Jeezum crow, Dr. Gordon, how can you be so arrogantly ignorant? Funny thing is, I don’t think you ARE ignorant. I really, truly do not understand your motivations for your unethical behaviors.

    Here is just one example of odd and unethical behavior. One that you have rather proudly repeated (your “open letter on vaccinations”) is skipping virtually the entire vaccination schedule for children in your care, but keeping some (of those vaccines you think are not needed) on hand to give if parents really insist. If the vaccines are not needed and are possibly harmful, then how can you ever give them? You say out of “respect” for, or to fill “emotional” needs of, parents. Hmmm. Can parents pressure you into other behavior you think is bad for their kids?

    I am also disturbed by your equivocating bit on your site where you write about HIV, including:

    “There is a second school of though not terribly popular with physicians: HIV causes AIDS with, because of, or assisted by the medication used to prevent AIDS.” He says that it seems to him that many folks have been helped by conventional AIDS meds, but, “I just think it’s also very reasonable and prudent to investigate other ways of keeping this virus in check by strengthening the immune system’s ability to deal with it and by increasing the overall health of the person who is carrying HIV.”

    Thanks to all these folks for answering Jay’s asinine question, and for pointing out that death is not the only bad consequence of measles.

    Jay’s links and recommended reading include many anti-vax and quackery sites, as well. And, no surprise, Jay sez: “I am a big fan of homeopathic remedies”

  55. #55 Dr Benway
    January 11, 2009

    And, no surprise, Jay sez: “I am a big fan of homeopathic remedies”

    Well that’s quite helpful, in the same way “I have rabies” is helpful.

    “I like homeopathy” is a coded way of saying, “I am delusional.”

  56. #56 Orac
    January 12, 2009

    Jay’s links and recommended reading include many anti-vax and quackery sites, as well. And, no surprise, Jay sez: “I am a big fan of homeopathic remedies”

    Where does Jay say this?

  57. #57 Chris
    January 12, 2009

    Using Google Advanced searching techniques, I found this on his website:
    http://www.drjaygordon.com/development/faqs/faq040.asp
    Where he says “I am a big fan of homeopathic remedies including teething tablets, arnica for wounds and pain, pulsatilla for earaches and sinus congestion and Boiron’s “Cold Calm” for scratchy throats. I recommend Nux Vomica for tummy aches and also suggest weak “tummy teas” like peppermint and chamomile. I do NOT recommend anti-nausea suppositories for children or teens because they can mask the signs of serious illness. Persistent vomiting and stomach pain require a phone call or doctor visit.”

    The search brought up a few more incidences .
    of “homoepathic” on Dr. Jay’s webstite:
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&q=homeopathic+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fdrjaygordon.com%2F&btnG=Search

    Dangerous Bacon: you said “Personally, I have major doubts that the person posting here as “Jay Gordon” is really Jay Gordon M.D….”, looking at Dr. Jay’s website, I am afraid that even if Dr. Jay did not post idiocy here, his idiocy would be evident from the website (look at the HIV hit from the search link above).

  58. #58 Kim
    January 12, 2009

    This episode was playing in the locker room at my gym while I was getting dressed, I immediately thought of you. ;-) I did think the dialog that I caught (scenes 2 and 4 according to this transcript) were on the preachy poor acting side, though.

  59. #59 Danimal
    January 12, 2009

    Orac:

    And one by someone we all “know and love”:

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=256

    Speak for yourself. While I enjoy your writing and writing style, I think the writer you claim we all “know and love” is full of shit. I much rather read your blog then waste time reading him.

  60. #60 Mu
    January 12, 2009

    I can only hope that at some point some DA will have the guts to charge every non-vaccinating parent with child abuse, and every MD advocating it with endangering public health.

  61. #61 Dawn
    January 12, 2009

    @Danimal: Re: “While I enjoy your writing and writing style, I think the writer you claim we all “know and love” is full of shit. I much rather read your blog then waste time reading him.”
    I can only hope you are kidding. If the clues were much more obvious, the cluebat would know you out otherwise.

  62. #62 Dawn
    January 12, 2009

    I should learn to use preview….the last line should read

    “knock you out otherwise”

  63. #63 sophia8
    January 12, 2009

    Where he says “I am a big fan of homeopathic remedies including teething tablets, arnica for wounds and pain, pulsatilla for earaches and sinus congestion and Boiron’s “Cold Calm” for scratchy throats. I recommend Nux Vomica for tummy aches and also suggest weak “tummy teas” like peppermint and chamomile. “
    Dr Gordon seems to be ignorant of the very large difference between homeopathy and herbalism. Herbal remedies such as chamomile tea and arnica use real, active ingredients; they aren’t as effective as synthesised pharmacuetical products, but they do have some effects. Homepathic remedies however are just very expensive water.
    Don’t they teach this distinction at medical school?

  64. #64 Danimal
    January 12, 2009

    @Dawn, yes just kidding. I thought that would be obvious.

  65. #65 Prometheus
    January 12, 2009

    Sophia8 writes:


    “Dr Gordon seems to be ignorant of the very large difference between homeopathy and herbalism.”

    Sophia, there are books – medical textbooks, mainly – full of the things that Dr. Gordon appears to be ignorant of.

    Dr. Gordon seems to have developed an aversion to any knowledge that he hasn’t personally acquired through his vast experience as pediatrician to the stars or from listening to parents like Jenny McCarthy. That’s the only explanation I can come up with for his eyes-closed-fingers-in-ears approach to vaccines.

    Since he hasn’t seen anyone killed or disabled by measles, measles is not a serious disease, in his vast experience. I suspect he used to have the same attitude about HIV, but he’s since had a little experience with that one…

    As for “Dr. Jay” tut-tutting about the way other people spend their free time, I’d say that it’s really none of his business. If he feels threatened enough to comment about it, he should ask himself why it bothers him so much.

    Perhaps he feels uneasy about his role in decreasing the immunity of the community. Maybe he’s worried about how the community will view his “not-antivaccination-but-reluctant-to-vaccinate” efforts when (not if) an outbreak strikes his clientele.

    Rather than “concern-trolling” ‘bloggers, perhaps Dr. Gordon should examine his own actions.

    Prometheus

  66. #66 Dawn
    January 12, 2009

    @Danimal – I wasn’t sure.

    I spend too much time reading stuff where you COULD hit people with cluebats and they still don’t get it (for example, a commenter on this blog who, with all the evidence given to her, still couldn’t make the association).

    Sorry for misunderstanding you.

  67. #67 disillusioned
    January 12, 2009

    you all need to have your heads examined…. ever heard of Hannah Poling??? Mitochondrial Dysfunction? Adverse reactions? Variation in Immune reponse?? There are over 5000 vaccine injury cases where kids developed “autistic symptoms” waiting to be heard in vaccine court…adverse reactions CAN and DO happen even to those who are pro-vaccine. Read the VAERS reports. What’s more important the safety of ALL kids or protecting a broken immunization program that’s resulted in the erosion of the public’s trust thanks to the likes of Gerberding and her ilk.

  68. #68 Mu
    January 12, 2009

    We love discussing the Polling case! Especially where the “scientific evidence” turned out to be a case report written by her father, to support his lawsuit. I’m sure you can find one or two nicely written comments by Orac on this subject, especially on “conflict of interest, hidden”.

  69. #69 D. C. Sessions
    January 12, 2009

    you all need to have your heads examined…. ever heard of Hannah Poling??? Mitochondrial Dysfunction? Adverse reactions? Variation in Immune reponse?? There are over 5000 vaccine injury cases where kids developed “autistic symptoms” waiting to be heard in vaccine court…adverse reactions CAN and DO happen even to those who are pro-vaccine. Read the VAERS reports. What’s more important the safety of ALL kids or protecting a broken immunization program that’s resulted in the erosion of the public’s trust thanks to the likes of Gerberding and her ilk.

    Wow — a one-paragraph Gish gallop.

  70. #70 The Perky Skeptic
    January 12, 2009

    I shall take the opportunity to quote my new Favorite Comment Ever– pardon me as I apply it to Dr. Jay Gordon:

    “I’m very concerned about what else might be lying under that stinky blanket of clinical experience !”

    — weing, commenting on this Science-Based Medicine blog entry

  71. #71 Alligator
    January 12, 2009

    you all need to have your heads examined…. ever heard of Hannah Poling???

    Indeed. The government conceded that it was more likely than not that vaccines exacerbated her underlying condition. What’s your point? The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program exists because Congress acknowledged that vaccines will injure a very small percentage of children.

    There are over 5000 vaccine injury cases where kids developed “autistic symptoms” waiting to be heard in vaccine court…adverse reactions CAN and DO happen even to those who are pro-vaccine.

    I don’t think anyone has denied that some children have adverse reactions to vaccines. Again, this is why the VICP exists. That 5,000 families have confused correlation with causation is evidence of confusion and nothing more, legally (and probably scientifically) speaking. Anyone can file a claim, just like anyone can submit a VAERS report.

  72. #72 HCN
    January 12, 2009

    disillusioned Gish galloped: “you all need to have your heads examined…. ever heard of ….. Read the VAERS reports. …”

    Well if there was anyone who needed a clue bat, it would be this person. Dear “disillusioned”, look at this page, scroll up and look on the left had side. You will find a handy dandy box with a “Search” label. Put the word “poling” in the box and click it. Then put in the word “vaers”. You should be able to find those things discussed.

    And if you read them with an open mind, you might actually learn something.

  73. #73 Rogue Epidemiologist
    January 12, 2009

    I don’t watch much network television (‘The Simpsons’ are pretty much it). But the YouTube link to this episode made the rounds at my office. They make their point and all, but did they have to go and make the county health department look like a bunch of priggish pedants? I mean JEEBUS! Really, do people hate Public Health that much???

  74. #74 Phil Schwarz
    January 12, 2009

    The scriptwriters got the message regarding vaccination right… but I am appalled that *nobody* here has taken time to take them down for their perpetuation of the doom-mongering language so frequently used about autistic people.

    Her oldest son sure as f— did *not* seem “lost” to me. Yes, he looked stereotypically autistic. But autistic people are not “lost”.

    The mother says that about him, in front of him. Just like Alison Tepper Singer’s infamous drive-off-the-GW-bridge comment, in front of *her* daughter, in “Autism Every Day”. *And it goes unchallenged, and therefore tacitly agreed with by the medical people.*

    You want to know what *really* drives the stupid to burn in so many places, what *really* drives all these parents into the arms of the quacks? *It’s the continued drumbeat of dread-and-doom about autism.* The quacks win any time they can sell FUD — fear, uncertainty, and doubt. And legitimate clinicians have to start *breaking rank* with that drumbeat, and respond to parents about *legitimate* steps they can take to give their autistic kids better outcomes. *Even if it’s beyond the scope of medicine.* Because it sure as f— isn’t beyond the scope of bedside manner.

    If *I* were advising those scriptwriters, that doc to whom the mother says “I’ve already lost one child” would tell her in no uncertain terms that *she has not*… and that he can set her up with resources to improve his outcome. I’d have the doc tell her: “You know he is hearing you say that and he may not be able to talk, but dollars to donuts he *understands* what you are saying. So you need to stop saying that. And one of the things we need to get you set up with is folks who can leverage the abilities he *does* have, like receptive speech and the ability to point, to start him on basic preliteracy skills, picture systems, and independent keyboarding, to give him the means he deserves to communicate and to bootstrap his ability to proceed with formal education.”

    But nooooo. We can’t have autism painted as less than the tragedy that the marketing model of not only the quacks but the *mainstream autism organizations* requires in order to be effective.

    If you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten. *This goes for the good guys in the vaccine wars, like the supporters of this blog, as well as for the bad guys.*

    If you really want to deflate the antivaxers’ and quacks’ balloon, before they sucker too much more of the population into wrecking herd immunity, you’re going to have to get your clinical peers to *change their f—ing message* about autism to their patients.

    Unless you really *like* playing whack-a-mole with JB and Jenny and whatever shiny celeb they recruit next, until you all are ready to retire.

    The quacks know how to sell false hope. One of the worst places the stupid burns IMHO, in terms of *real consequences*, is among *legitimate* clinicians who *could* sell *real* hope, and don’t.

  75. #75 Phil Schwarz
    January 12, 2009

    The scriptwriters got the message regarding vaccination right… but I am appalled that *nobody* here has taken time to take them down for their perpetuation of the doom-mongering language so frequently used about autistic people.

    Her oldest son sure as f— did *not* seem “lost” to me. Yes, he looked stereotypically autistic. But autistic people are not “lost”.

    The mother says that about him, in front of him. Just like Alison Tepper Singer’s infamous drive-off-the-GW-bridge comment, in front of *her* daughter, in “Autism Every Day”. *And it goes unchallenged, and therefore tacitly agreed with by the medical people.*

    You want to know what *really* drives the stupid to burn in so many places, what *really* drives all these parents into the arms of the quacks? *It’s the continued drumbeat of dread-and-doom about autism.* The quacks win any time they can sell FUD — fear, uncertainty, and doubt. And legitimate clinicians have to start *breaking rank* with that drumbeat, and respond to parents about *legitimate* steps they can take to give their autistic kids better outcomes. *Even if it’s beyond the scope of medicine.* Because it sure as f— isn’t beyond the scope of bedside manner.

    If *I* were advising those scriptwriters, that doc to whom the mother says “I’ve already lost one child” would tell her in no uncertain terms that *she has not*… and that he can set her up with resources to improve his outcome. I’d have the doc tell her: “You know he is hearing you say that and he may not be able to talk, but dollars to donuts he *understands* what you are saying. So you need to stop saying that. And one of the things we need to get you set up with is folks who can leverage the abilities he *does* have, like receptive speech and the ability to point, to start him on basic preliteracy skills, picture systems, and independent keyboarding, to give him the means he deserves to communicate and to bootstrap his ability to proceed with formal education.”

    But nooooo. We can’t have autism painted as less than the tragedy that the marketing model of not only the quacks but the *mainstream autism organizations* requires in order to be effective.

    If you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten. *This goes for the good guys in the vaccine wars, like the supporters of this blog, as well as for the bad guys.*

    If you really want to deflate the antivaxers’ and quacks’ balloon, before they sucker too much more of the population into wrecking herd immunity, you’re going to have to get your clinical peers to *change their f—ing message* about autism to their patients.

    Unless you really *like* playing whack-a-mole with JB and Jenny and whatever shiny celeb they recruit next, until you all are ready to retire.

    The quacks know how to sell false hope. One of the worst places the stupid burns IMHO, in terms of *real consequences*, is among *legitimate* clinicians who *could* sell *real* hope, and don’t.

  76. #76 Paul Murray
    January 12, 2009

    @JAy Gordon: Anyone here want to comment on the date of the last measles fatality in the USA?

    Well, this document
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001522.htm
    says:

    During the first 26 weeks of 1989, local and state health departments reported a provisional total of 7335 measles cases to CDC–a 380% increase over the 1529 cases reported for the same period in 1988; at least 10 measles-associated deaths were also reported. In addition, another 30 suspected measles-associated fatalities are being investigated by local and state health departments and CDC.

    So there’s a lower bound for you – 20 years ago. Not all that long, really. 10 deaths in the first six months, probably more.

    Anyone got anything more recent?

  77. #77 Chris
    January 12, 2009

    Paul Murray said “Anyone got anything more recent?”

    Look up the thread. There is a table where I found one in 2003 (CDC Pink Book Appendix G). I also listed a Mortality and Morbidity report of the damage done by mumps a couple of years ago.

    Also, here is the full link of the paper I referenced but failed to put the link on because of the URL limit:
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=8855680

  78. #78 KristinMH
    January 12, 2009

    In re: Jay Gordon prescribing Nux Vomica, I certainly hope it’s the homeopathic dilution. Isn’t Nux Vomica where strychnine comes from?

  79. #79 Dawn - the smart one
    January 13, 2009

    You are right. We are going about it all wrong in this debate. We need to start demanding that doctors and nurses receive every vaccine that they demand necessary for our children. When they see the damage in their own families, they will then realize how stupid they were to think that vaccines were safe and effective.

  80. #80 HCN
    January 13, 2009

    Dawn (and I think you need to read this; http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf ) said “they will then realize how stupid they were to think that vaccines were safe and effective.”

    All you have to do is show us the real scientific data that shows that the DTaP is worse than pertussis, diphtheria and tetanus. You’ve been asked to present that information several times, and you have yet to present anything except a bunch of unverifiable sob stories.

  81. #81 Dawn - the smart one
    January 13, 2009

    HCN: are you still on that stupid kick? Show us that vaccines are safe and effective please. Where is the science in all of your scientific blabbering?

  82. #82 Dawn - the smart one
    January 13, 2009

    Besides, I’ve already had you help me prove that Congenital Rubella really never harmed 20,000 people like the CDC states it did – again, based on their own reported figures!! Is it my fault that chemicals and heavy metals have robbed you of your ability to think logically?

  83. #84 Dangerous Bacon
    January 13, 2009

    Dawn: “We need to start demanding that doctors and nurses receive every vaccine that they demand necessary for our children. When they see the damage in their own families, they will then realize how stupid they were to think that vaccines were safe and effective.”

    As a physician, I can tell you that I _have_ received some vaccines currently recommended for today’s children. The main reason I didn’t get the others is that I suffered through the diseases they prevent (the vaccines for measles, mumps and rubella, for example, were unavailable when I was growing up). I got good and sick with those diseases and risked far, far worse consequences than those presented by the vaccines).

    You should also be aware that studies show that physicians follow vaccine recommendations for their own kids to a high degree. More than 9 in 10 pediatricians adhere to the recommended vaccine schedule for their children. Here’s an example in the case of chickenpox vaccination:

    http://cpj.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/42/7/635

    Now that you’re aware of this, I hope you will at least stop repeating this particular antivax lie.

  84. #85 Chris
    January 13, 2009

    Dangerous Bacon said “Now that you’re aware of this, I hope you will at least stop repeating this particular antivax lie.”

    I don’t think that would happen. Just recently I saw someone posting the “Japan reduced the rate of SIDS by stopping the DTP vaccine”. Unfortunately, they were not told that the reason the SIDS “rate” went down was that the 41 deaths in 1979 were due to pertussis and could no longer be blamed on the vaccine (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15889991?). I will not place bets on whether that the same person will be swayed and not continue to post that same myth.

    Also, this morning I read Dr. Hall’s most recent posting on “Playing by the Rules” on ScienceBasedMedicine. In the comments someone posted this very true cartoon:
    http://cectic.com/069.html

  85. #86 Prometheus
    January 16, 2009

    Dawn (no comment) said:


    “We need to start demanding that doctors and nurses receive every vaccine that they demand necessary for our children. When they see the damage in their own families, they will then realize how stupid they were to think that vaccines were safe and effective.”

    I had to get every one of those vaccines just to do research at the pediatric hospital in my university. I even got the Herpes zoster vaccine ‘cuz I couldn’t prove that I had chickenpox as a kid (OK, the ID nurse was a bit overzealous with that one). I’m still here. No vaccine-induced damage.

    When I was in the service, I was given vaccines that we don’t give children (e.g. yellow fever, typhoid, plague). I’m still here. No vaccine-induced damage.

    My children have received all of the recommended childhood vaccines. They’re still here. No vaccine-induced “damage” in any of them.

    On the other hand, one of my college friends got measles during his Peace Corps tour and ended up with encephalitis. He’s not doing so well.

    Several of my father’s childhood friends got polio and even the ones that survived without serious disability are now suffering from post-polio syndrome. They’re not doing so well.

    Several years ago, one of the adminstrative workers in our department came down with chickenpox (she never had it as a child) and developed encephalitis. She’s not doing so well.

    Now, who was it that was supposed to realize how stupid they were?

    Prometheus

  86. #87 Dianne
    January 16, 2009

    We need to start demanding that doctors and nurses receive every vaccine that they demand necessary for our children. When they see the damage in their own families, they will then realize how stupid they were to think that vaccines were safe and effective

    I’ve pretty much been vaccinated for every disease that I haven’t had already. I haven’t had the HPV vaccine because when I asked for it my gyn started laughing and saying that if I wasn’t already infected at 40 (I’m not–extreme nerdism has its advantages) I was so low risk that it would be a waste of perfectly good adjuvant to vaccinate me at this point. No damage. Well, no, that’s not entirely true. I got a fever after taking the second of a planned three shot series for FSME. Despite its being an expensive vaccine, my doctor advised me to not take the third shot. I guess she didn’t get the memo on maximizing profits through dangerous vaccinations, huh, dawn?

  87. #88 Chris
    January 16, 2009

    Prometheus said “When I was in the service, I was given vaccines that we don’t give children (e.g. yellow fever, typhoid, plague). I’m still here. No vaccine-induced damage.”

    Actually I received the yellow fever and typhoid vaccines as an infant because I was born overseas as a military brat. I received the yellow fever vaccine again before we moved to the South America when I was a teenager. (and returning to the States I was prohibited from giving blood during most of my college career due to malaria concerns which expired in three years, and now I just get to say “yes” for possible exposure to Chagas disease).

    Dianne, the HPV vaccine is only approved for women under 20-something. I just read somewhere that the request to raise the age limit was recently rejected.

  88. #89 Dianne
    January 16, 2009

    the HPV vaccine is only approved for women under 20-something. I just read somewhere that the request to raise the age limit was recently rejected.

    True, but not all meds are used as they are officially approved…but double the recommended age is apparently just pushing it too much.

  89. #90 Dawn
    January 17, 2009

    Prometheus stated: “When I was in the service, I was given vaccines that we don’t give children (e.g. yellow fever, typhoid, plague)”.

    Wow, that totally explains your deep-rooted hostility towards humanity Prometheus. I would be rippin too if I was pumped full of experimental vaccines. You were a human guinea pig.

    So, please tell us how many meds you are on now. Just curious. You say that vaccines do no harm, but 50% of the population is on “something” or more.

  90. #91 Dawn
    January 17, 2009

    Did you know that chemicals destroy your ability to think logically? In fact, the vast majority of our children in school today have tremendous difficulty with abstract reasoning. That probably explains why we need foreigners to fill our colleges and universities, huh? So, basically I’ve been wasting an enormous amount of time here on this board these past so many months. I read that a great portion of MDs, chemists, scientists, etc. also do drugs and drown their sorrows with booze. I am guessing that is a big fat “yes”….based on all of your sorry responses. Some of you just cannot think outside of the box. That’s sad. Some of you though, know exactly who your employer is – and good for you. NO conscience, keep the money rolling, and keep pumping those kids and adults full of toxins. Maybe they will get a clue when Autism effects 1 in every 2 children. Then again, if they are really as stupid as I think they are, maybe they won’t.

  91. #92 DT
    January 17, 2009

    Dawn, do you even have the faintest idea what a “chemical” is?

    Thought not.

  92. #93 Robster, FCD
    January 17, 2009

    Dawn, I also was vaccinated beyond the required childhood vaccines so that I could work with human cell culture.

    You could attempt to inform yourself before you display your ignorance.

  93. #94 Chris
    January 17, 2009

    Dawn said “I would be rippin too if I was pumped full of experimental vaccines.”

    The yellow fever and typhoid vaccines are not experimental. I received them both after being born in Gorgas Hospital over fifty years ago. I would suggest you do a little reading on history of the effects of certain diseases, and why there are hospitals named for Army doctors like William Gorgas and Walter Reed. (actually if you had read the entire “Little House on the Prairie” series you would have learned that yellow fever was fairly common even in the plains states, along with being a severe problem in the Gulf States). There are lots of books on the subject, I recently read http://www.amazon.com/Panama-Fever-Greatest-Achievements-Building/dp/0385515340/, but this book would be more of the experience in the USA:
    http://www.amazon.com/Yellow-Jack-Ravaged-America-Discovered/dp/0471472611/

    Dawn continued “Did you know that chemicals destroy your ability to think logically?”

    Did you know you also need them to actually live? Have you tried removing all water, salt, calcium, phosphorus, carbon, potassium, iron, sodium, and oxygen from your body?

    Dawn continued “In fact, the vast majority of our children in school today have tremendous difficulty with abstract reasoning. ”

    Actually, we have yet to see this ability in you. There is an genetic factor in intelligence, I am afraid you seem to have received a low dose in your genome.

  94. #95 Scott Dendy
    April 11, 2009

    Your such a fu_ken Nazi Low Life if you believe that VACCINES dont cause AUTISM. I can prove it! I would love to meet you!

  95. #96 Orac
    April 11, 2009

    Why waste my time meeting you? Prove it now.

    Or go away and stop trolling.

  96. #97 LYNETTE
    September 12, 2009

    Respectfully I am a mom of a Child named Joshua Luke Ramsey who did Pass Away Due to congenital Rubella Syndrome due to MMR in Utero.. This by the way does happen and it is my reality. The CDC and FDA can say what they want but it does however effect the siblings, parents, and family members who are in the network of caregiving and loving individuals as they are here with us.. IMMUNIZATIONS cary more than our community is aware.. There is a total risk with immunizations.. I know this first hand..

  97. #98 LYNETTE
    September 12, 2009

    Respectfully I am a mom of a Child named Joshua Luke Ramsey who did Pass Away Due to congenital Rubella Syndrome due to MMR in Utero.. This by the way does happen and it is my reality. The CDC and FDA can say what they want but it does however effect the siblings, parents, and family members who are in the network of caregiving and loving individuals as they are here with us.. IMMUNIZATIONS cary more than our community is aware.. There is a total risk with immunizations.. I know this first hand..

  98. #99 Chris
    September 12, 2009

    I am sorry for your loss, but I a few questions about your comment:

    1) Why do you post this on a eight month old posting, when there are more recent and relevant posts on this blog to post that comment on?

    2) From the CDC Pink Book Chapter on measles, page 170:

    Women known to be pregnant should not receive measles vaccine. Pregnancy should be avoided for 4 weeks following MMR vaccine.

    So it would seem that there is a known risk for getting the MMR while pregnant. How did the MMR get administered in utero?

    3) From the CDC Pink Book Chapter on rubella, page 18

    Women who are pregnant or who intend to become pregnant within 4 weeks should not receive rubella vaccine. ACIP recommends that vaccine providers ask a woman if she is pregnant or likely to become pregnant in the next 4 weeks. Those who are pregnant or intend to become pregnant should not be vaccinated

    … snip …

    CDC maintained a registry from 1971 to 1989 of women vaccinated during pregnancy. This was called the Vaccine in Pregnancy (VIP) Registry.

    …snip…

    The observed risk of vaccine-induced malformation was 0%, with a maximum theoretical risk 1.6%, based on 95% confidence limits (1.2% for all types of rubella vaccine). Since the risk of the vaccine to the
    fetus appears to be extremely low, if it exists at all, routine termination of pregnancy is not recommended. Individual counseling for these women is recommended. As of April 30, 1989, CDC discontinued the VIP registry.

    and in concludes:

    The ACIP continues to state that because of the small theoretical risk to the fetus of a vaccinated woman, pregnant women should not be vaccinated.

    Were you not told this, and not given the counseling?

  99. #100 Chris
    September 12, 2009

    And lastly, 4) Do you think we should stop vaccinating against rubella?

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