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"A statement of fact cannot be insolent." The miscellaneous ramblings of a surgeon/scientist on medicine, quackery, science, pseudoscience, history, and pseudohistory (and anything else that interests him)
Orac is the nom de blog of a (not so) humble pseudonymous surgeon/scientist with an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his miscellaneous verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few will. (Continued here, along with a DISCLAIMER that you should read before reading any medical discussions here.)
Orac's old Blog is archived at Archived Insolence.
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Category: Antivaccination lunacy • Medicine
Posted on: June 17, 2009 12:00 AM, by Orac
When it comes to antivaccinationists, The Onion, as for most things, nails it.
Don't vaccinate not because science shows no link between vaccines and autism but rather because, you know, Jenny McCarthy has some really convincing anecdotes.
When antivaccine loons are the butt of jokes on The Onion saying that they're endangering children, they should beware. Few things cut as deep as an Onion parody.
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Comments
The funny thing is that the AgeOfAutism has blogged about the Onion before--totally missing the fact that the Onion was making fun of exactly groups like them.
Posted by: Sullivan | June 17, 2009 1:07 AM
Completely OT, but: I have been inside the belly of the beast, and my god, the stupid, it burns...
Earlier tonight my wife dragged me to a talk about vaccines given by a local chiropractor. It was supposed to be neutral, presenting "both sides"... but you and I both know that is code for "I am going to ram woo up your ass so hard that you are going to puke stupid for days."
My wife thought we should go because a few girls from her playgroup that are waffling on vax were going to be there, and she thought I might be able to clarify any false claims and maybe provide some counterbalance... and maybe keep her friends from turning all the way to the dark side. Of course, my wife believed that it was actually going to be an even-handed discussion (hah!), so I think maybe she was a bit optimistic...
Well. So there I was, in a room with my wife, my 3-month old son, a handful of legitimately "concerned parents" who had been scared shitless by shills for Big Woo, and 25+ hardcore anti-vaxers. It was an echo chamber of epic proportions, and while I unfortunately missed a few golden opportunities for debunking (the thing about denialists is that they can just make shit up, whereas skeptics are bound by, you know, facts and reason and lame stuff like that) I did not back down, and I am happy to report that I think in at least a couple people I planted a seed of "Hey, maybe these anti-vaxers are talking crap." (At least one couple walked out when the people running the show told me I had to be quiet, with the husband saying, "I wanted to hear what that guy was saying!")
It's late now, but tomorrow I'm probably going to write up my experience, if anybody is interested.
Best moment: Hardcore anti-vax lady asks me if I've heard of Mark Geyer. My reply? "Oh yeah sure, he's that guy who worked with Mayer Eisenstein to develop a treatment for autistic kids that essentially amounts to chemical castration. Yeah, I know that guy." Boo-yah!
Biggest regret: I was going to bone up on the whole "antifreeze gambit", but I put it off, thinking: naw, even crazy wooaholics like McCarthy have laid off the antifreeze thing because it's so absurd. They'll never dare pull that out! Well, they did, and I was reduced to simply saying, "That's false" without really having the info to explain what they were confused about. D'oh...
Posted by: James Sweet | June 17, 2009 1:28 AM
Orac is a rude individual who talks nasty about other people behind their back. Then when those people show up on Orac's doorstep to have a discussion with Orac about his nastiness, Orac runs away and hides.
Posted by: Happeh | June 17, 2009 2:45 AM
Orac tried to hide what Happeh Theory can do for you, by encouraging a conversation after I made the following post in an attempt to bury it.
Why not learn something about real life? It only takes a minute?
I have created something for you to think about. The creation involves human evolution. Something I know scientists love to talk and think about. If you have some brains, you will be thinking about this for a long time. If you have a lot of brains and figure it out immediately, it will change your life.
http://www.happehtheory.com/OracPicture02.png
I made the picture big enough for the child like readers of Orac's blog. For some reason big pictures seem to get thru where small print requiring thinking does not.
Be warned. I mean really big picture. 1400 X 1000 or so. Don't be surprised if it takes awhile to load depending on your internet connection.
If you are intelligent, this will challenge your intelligence. Please don't let the low thinkers, the haters, or Orac, tell you what to do and determine your intellectual future, by heeding their advice to ignore me.
You will gain nothing by obeying them. You will only hurt yourself.
Posted by: Happeh | June 17, 2009 3:03 AM
The Onion is amusing, and this time right on the money.
Why yes, "Michael Pfau", you Canbe a bad father and an Irresponsible Asshole!
Posted by: DLC | June 17, 2009 4:31 AM
@Happeh
Wat?
Posted by: Jimboooo! | June 17, 2009 6:08 AM
Does anybody else, when confronted with more happeh blather, think of Mindfu--er, Head from Bowfinger? "Happeh Premise #1: There is no woo." Heh, he's probably off showing it to the Laker girls as we speak.
Posted by: jim | June 17, 2009 6:18 AM
Fuck off, happeh-daze. I am now totally bored with you interjecting into stuff I really would like to follow and/or know more about.
Take the hint - no one is listening, and no one cares.
Posted by: DebinOz | June 17, 2009 7:51 AM
Happeh, your posts brighten my day.
Posted by: JohnV | June 17, 2009 8:40 AM
Happeh, you know very well that Orac is not trying to "hide" your "Happeh Theory". If he were trying to "hide" it, he wouldn't be letting you post your nonsense here, now would he?
P.S., your image - Neanderthals were almost certainly not the direct ancestor of modern humans.
Posted by: Paper Hand | June 17, 2009 8:54 AM
I wouldn’t mind Jenny if she’d just stick to subjects she knows something about. Say – Breast Augmentation – What’s big enough for you and how big will do? Or, Important Life Choices: Silicone or Saline (with blue food coloring) - Are you a Crystal or an Indigo?
Posted by: wfjag | June 17, 2009 9:57 AM
This one is right on the money, too. And quite appropriate for this audience.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46032
Posted by: Caro | June 17, 2009 9:59 AM
Apparently Orac's post on Happeh's nonsense wounded him greatly. For someone that thinks so little of Orac he sure does spend alot of time here trying to convince us of it. Is Orac your hero Happeh and did his words hurt your wittle feelings?
He didn't hide your "theory", he put it in plain view - maybe you should thank him for the traffic. So sorry everyone's response was to laugh at you instead of being intrigued as you expected.
Posted by: ababa | June 17, 2009 10:19 AM
That has to be the most absurd thing ever posted on this blog.
Posted by: Joseph | June 17, 2009 10:59 AM
Orac running away and hidding? no clue about that but in any case, I'm definitely at lost for words when faced with someone who believe masturbation makes peoples blind and I don't think I'd be alone being speakless. Thanks for making my day though.
Posted by: Lurker | June 17, 2009 11:10 AM
Paper Hand "P.S., your image - Neanderthals were almost certainly not the direct ancestor of modern humans."
Don't try to misdirect. Make a comment about the humanoids and the Yin Yang symbol
----------
Joseph - "That has to be the most absurd thing ever posted on this blog"
I thought scientists were supposed to be eloquent? Can you explain why it is absurd?
Posted by: Happeh | June 17, 2009 12:20 PM
It's absurd because you took a random image (that incorrectly asserts Neanderthals are part of the ancestry of Homo sapiens) and drew some low-quality squigly lines on it in MS Paint; you're somehow using this to "support" your facepalm-inducing, masturbation-centric, racist delusions about human physiology.
Question: what would you have done if the picture had been drawn so that the (long-discredited) Ascent of Man picture had everyone facing left? Would your theory fall apart?! Oh Noes!
Posted by: Feeding the troll | June 17, 2009 12:38 PM
Is there a medical equivalent of "Poe's Law"? I am really getting that vibe off of Happeh.
Posted by: Joshua White | June 17, 2009 1:43 PM
So Happeh, by sitting at a computer all day with bad posture I am more in tune with Yin and Yang!!!! Genius!
Posted by: JRitter | June 17, 2009 1:54 PM
OK, I have to call Poe's law on Happeh. There is no way anyone could seriously think that. It must be a parody.
However, I would like to point out that if you include the torso in that shape, you have a nice rectangle, or maybe a smaller rectangle with a little circle on top. So what is the reasoning (and I use that term loosely) for leaving out most of the torso. Also, why look at the body from the side only? If you view from the front or back, you don't see any yins or yangs. Why try to force a 3D object into a 2D shape? I can make the human body look like any shape if I just cut out all the parts that don't fit into it.
Posted by: catgirl | June 17, 2009 2:03 PM
No Poe... just troll. Ignore it.
Posted by: Chris | June 17, 2009 2:07 PM
@James Sweet: good for you! spread reason to the masses!
Posted by: rob | June 17, 2009 4:26 PM
Happeh is a lot more fun to read if you imagine that he sounds like Elmo from Seasame Street.
Try this on for size
"Orac is a rude individual who talks nasty about other people behind their back. Then when those people show up on Orac's doorstep to have a discussion with Orac about his nastiness, Orac runs away and hides."
Posted by: anitpodean | June 17, 2009 6:58 PM
That's great, it makes his posts ever so much more entertaining.
La-la la-la
La-la la-la
Happeh's world
La-la la-la
La-la la-la
Happeh's world
Happeh loves his goldfish
His crayon, too
That's Happeh's World!
Sigh, now I can't get the tune out of my head ...
Posted by: ababa | June 17, 2009 8:04 PM
@rob: Thanks. It was not an easy night :) If you are interested in a more detailed account, it can be found here. (and that's the last I say cuz I don't want to be spamming for my blog here)
@antipodean & ababa: I'm not sure if I buy the Happeh/Elmo theory. It definitely worked well for the "Orac runs away and hides" tirade, but if I imagine Elmo reading the following excerpt from Happeh's website, it's just creepy:
El-Elmo? Really? :(
Posted by: James Sweet | June 17, 2009 10:35 PM
James, I went to your link and I think you were really brave to do that. I don't think my blood pressure could stand it.
I tried to post a comment, but the whole disabling cut and paste was very annoying! So I'll mention a couple of websites of interest to you:
You need to get the Jenny McCarthy Body Count widget on your website. Since we are limited to only two URLs per comment here, instead of the direct link to the widget I am going to post the URL of the podcast that I listened to this evening with an interview of the guy who created the widget: http://www.skepticality.com/ (episode #104, they don't have a direct link to the page yet).
Also, go visit http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/ ... it is a website I stumbled upon almost ten years ago when researching the dubious crap being promoted on a listserv I was on due to my son's disability (you can read about some of my experience on that listserv on the JREF forum, I am Hydrogen Cyanide). He has a great page on Veira Scheibner (who is a geologist!), and be sure to read up on Yurko --- the baby killer defended by the anti-vax croud. He has a whole section devoted to "Anti-vax Liars."
Oh, and some info for the next time you are around an American spouting off on the MMR... It has been in the USA since 1971. If you are under the age of 39, you have more than likely had the vaccine yourself. It has never contained thimerosal nor aluminum.
Also, your own body makes formaldehyde. It is part of normal cell metabolism. I am out of URL links, but look back in the archive of this blog to find the bits about antifreeze. There was a cartoon with Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey injectiing the "Evil Orac" with antifreeze as he tries to tell then it is not antifreeze!
Some suggested reading for you and your wife:
"Vaccine" by Arthur Allen
"Vaccinated" by Paul Offit (about the guy who invented the MMR!, it includes all sorts of interesting history on vaccine development)
and also by Paul Offit:
"Autism's False Prophets" (which was featured as a ScienceBlogs book club)
Oh, and a warning about babies: they grow up fast! Enjoy every precious moment. Also make sure you get lots of pictures and video. They do come in handy has blackmail material when they are teenagers. ;-p (seriously, I showed a video of my younger son being Robin Hood (age 6), daughter being Maid Marian (age 3) and older son (age 8) being the Sheriff of Nottingham to friends of now 18 year old younger son... he was not pleased, even though the only comment was from one young lady: "Oh, that is so cute!").
Posted by: HCN | June 18, 2009 12:45 AM
Happeh:
You want a comment on the yin-yang thing? Okay, here it is:
One of the most strained examples of pareidolia I've ever seen, and that includes seeing the virgin Mary in a film of dirt on a bank window.
Posted by: Brian X | June 18, 2009 1:53 AM
Hey HCN... Thanks for the comments!
Yeah I had heard that your own body makes formaldehyde but I was unable to find a good source before the meeting. I unfortunately didn't spend much time preparing, because up until the last minute I had been refusing to go. heh...
I've been sorta meaning to read Autism's False Prophets for a while now. Of course, everything Offit says is immediately invalid to the anti-vaxers because of his work on rotavirus vaccine (even though Wakefield's obvious financial motivations are somehow interpreted as making him a martyr, but whatever...)
It would have been great if I had boned up on Schiebner ahead of time. Early on, the comment was made, "Hey, it seems like you like the scientific side of things. You should read this book!" I Googled her on my phone and found out she basically had no idea what she was talking about, but the conversation had moved on by that point. My phone has a really crappy internet browser too, and yet I was able to undermine claims made by these people in minutes.
And anyway, that sorta brings me to the saddest part... I am not a doctor. I have not spent countless hours reading books and studying research papers on vaccines. Pretty much all of my information comes from the University of Google. I really did not have to work hard to debunk a lot of this crap. Just a modicum of skepticism and a couple hours of googling is all it takes to completely undermine the anti-vaxers. It's just sad, really...
Posted by: James Sweet | June 18, 2009 8:42 AM
James Sweet said "And anyway, that sorta brings me to the saddest part... I am not a doctor."
Neither am I. I just have the advantage of an earlier start. My son is now an adult.
Posted by: HCN | June 18, 2009 11:58 AM
"Of course, everything Offit says is immediately invalid to the anti-vaxers because of his work on rotavirus vaccine (even though Wakefield's obvious financial motivations are somehow interpreted as making him a martyr, but whatever...)"
I've actually read the book, and surprisingly, found (most of) it very insightful. (Some of us are actually open-minded enough to read *both* sides of this issue.)
And while I'm not certain, I think I may have even recognized a regular poster here within those pages.
Posted by: Jen | June 18, 2009 12:38 PM
There ought to be a video, with audio track, of a Tickle Me happeh on the sidebar. Just click on it any time you read a Tickle Me happeh comment. Remember to follow antipodean's advice and read the comment in the voice of Elmo. Don't do this out loud, because being overheard by any sane person would be too embarrassing. They might even try to have you committed.
After all, happeh claims that happeh means happy. I don't need to know why. It probably doesn't make any more sense than any of the rest of the Tickle Me happeh writing. At least this way Tickle Me happeh could make people happy.
And before anyone else calls it - I get to be Cookie Monster!
Cookie! :-)
Posted by: Rogue Medic | June 18, 2009 10:50 PM
Nothing you say will change the fact I am a genius and you all are not.
Not one of you have a clue what it is I am getting at. All of your posting is an attempt to make yourself feel better about your ignorance.
I have a question. Why don't you just ask me what it is about? Aren't you curious in the slightest bit? How can you be scientists if you are not curious?
If you ask me now I probably won't answer. I want you to suffer with knowing you are unable to figure out what the genius Happeh is trying to tell you.
Maybe in a few years the suffering will teach you humility.
Posted by: Happeh | June 19, 2009 4:23 AM
Nothing you say will change the fact I am a genius and you all are not
Shoo. Grown-ups talking.
Posted by: snerd | June 19, 2009 4:59 AM
Remember the Elmo voice, here.
Not El Larry or El Curly, we must take this very, very seriously. And not the El happeh voice.
Does El happeh have a voice?
Maybe Elmo knows. Take it away, Elmo!
Posted by: Rogue Medic | June 19, 2009 5:31 AM
I don't think happeh is stupid. I think he's like wrestling (yes, I knew people who were taking wrestling seriously).
Maybe he enjoys our exasperation or maybe he just has a lot of time on his hands. I don't think he's for real: if he's that stupid, how can he use a computer?
Posted by: Tap | June 19, 2009 7:29 AM
"Nothing you say will change the fact I am a genius and you all are not."
Delusions of grandeur...a clear sign of psychosis. Happeh, seriously...you need help.
Posted by: Jen | June 19, 2009 7:34 AM
The Elmo voice is good, but now Happeh is more accurately represented by Wile E. Coyote, Super Genius.
Posted by: ababa | June 19, 2009 8:23 AM
Wile E. Coyote?
Wile Elmo Coyote!
Maybe imagine Tickle me happeh running off of cliffs and blowing up, but I think we need to stick with the Elmo voice. Although Elmo is far more mature than the voice suggests.
Hey, Big Bird, I want to grow up and be an Evil Super Genius.
Too bad Elmo's voice box is not capable of providing the kind of Evil Laughter used by Dr. Evil and his minions.
Or maybe not.
MwaHeHeHeHeHe. There's a new Dr. Elmo Evil in town. Just don't tickle him. You tickle him and the evil vibe just magically vanishes in the silliness of it all.
Posted by: Rogue Medic | June 19, 2009 10:46 AM
The fine folks at the Onion have to be the greatest satirists to come about since Jonathan Smith. Rare is the person who can tell it like it is in this manner and make people laugh at the same time. Kudos to them.
Posted by: Lucario | June 20, 2009 9:49 PM
June - "Delusions of grandeur...a clear sign of psychosis. Happeh, seriously...you need help."
Sorry June. Michael Ralston already beat you to the "need help".
You ever notice how scientists and the line "you need help" are as frequently spotted on the internet as little children and the line "YOU FAIL!" is?
I think it is because they are on a similar mental level.
Posted by: Happeh | June 20, 2009 10:54 PM
I just stumbled across this blog, and immediately fell in love! So greetings from University of Helsinki, Finland. For the last week, I've been "researching" some of these claims anti-vaxers make, and I was shown this page: http://www.whale.to/m/critics.html
which apparently is supposed to show how many experts there are worldwide who don't believe in vaccination, and so it must be true (that vaccines don't work and are nothing but harmfull). Does anyone know if there are pages were people and scientists who do believe in vaccination are listed? I'd like to sign me in.
Posted by: Tanja | June 23, 2009 8:13 AM
Yeah, June. Tickle Me happeh only takes alternative treatments for paranoid schizophrenia - I mean for eccentricities that fall many standard deviations outside the norm - I mean for just having a creative personality that is best understood by using the Elmo voice to put these comments in the proper perspective.
MwaHeHeHeHe. (Evil Genius Tickle Me happeh laughter.) ;-)
Posted by: Rogue Medic | June 23, 2009 10:33 AM
Tanja
I can't imagine there is a list of "experts who support the standard vaccine position." It would be too long (compare it to the "Scientists Named Steve" list of pro-evolution scientists to rival the creationist lists). However, consider this.
1) I didn't count them all, but to be generous, there are maybe 500 people listed (probably closer to 400, but who cares). Also, of all these, not all of them are doctors. Again, who cares, let's count them. Also, this is an international list, and counts basically every anti-vaxxers they can find.
2) The American Academy of Pediatricians has 60 000 members.
So this so-called "impressive list" of anti-vaxxers, which are not just experts but includes complete laypeople like Robert F Kennedy Jr, is still less than 1% of just the AAP. And that's being generous.
If you spent a little time calling around, you could build a list of 500 "pro-vax" people very easily, with less than a day's work I bet. Just start calling pediatrician's offices and ask them what their policy is on vaccination. If I do that with my local office, for example, the answer would be "We recommend the CDC schedule of vaccines for all our patients." Right. There's five docs right there.
I've pointed this out before. Anti-vax doctors are so rare that any doctors who are end up being promoted heavily. They get to be well-known all over the world. Doctors who follow the CDC guidelines are common, and found everywhere. Thus, they are not notable, and are completely under the radar. And they are by far the overwhelming majority.
Wasn't there a thread where it was reported that 93% of Finnish pede's are pro-vaccination by the prescribed schedule? I apologize if I got the country wrong (it was definately Scandanavian and please don't get offended that I didn't pay close enough attention to remember if it was Finland and Sweden, or that I lump them together as Scandanavian)
I'm not all that surprised. I would consider the spectrum to be something like:
a) Insist that patients vaccinate (refusing to treat patients who refuse without a medical reason), and recommend the prescribed schedule
b) Recommend vaccination according to the prescribed schedule, but will (reluctantly) still treat those that don't
c) Recommend vaccination, but by a different schedule (Sears, etc) or to a different extent
d) Recommend against vaccination
When I saw the 93% figure, I would lump them into groups a and b. The 7% would be groups c and d, and I assert that it is mostly in c.
Posted by: Pablo | June 23, 2009 10:58 AM
@ Pablo:Yes,the list would be too long.I think that these "lists of supporters" for various woo-centric "theories" or practices are purely an advertising technique to influence potential customers;often well-known names"(e.g. RFK,jr.)are prominently featured but have no medical or scientific backgrounds.(Also the "brave maverick scientist" schtick).Similarly,AIDS denialists have compiled a list of those who do *not* advocate the reality of the AIDS virus, its transmission,or even the existence of the illness itself,(see Gary Null.com)in contrast to the legions of doctors, scientists,educators, and others who would appear of the EBM-based list, if it existed.
Posted by: Denice Walter | June 23, 2009 12:04 PM
Tanja said "For the last week, I've been "researching" some of these claims anti-vaxers make, and I was shown this page: http://www.whale.to/m/critics.html"
Ah, it is time to tell them about Scopies Law:
http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Scopie's_Law ... which states "In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately ...and gets you laughed out of the room."
You should also show them the other pages on whale.to, like the ones where he sells holy hand grenades and things to keep satanic black lines from burning your bum. Oh, yeah the owner of whale.to, John Scudamore, had his bum burned by a satanic ley line!
Posted by: HCN | June 23, 2009 12:25 PM
Funny you should mention Gary Null. He is on the vaccine denier list, too! Amazing. The guy is an expert in everything!
It's actually funny to look through the list, sold to Tanja as "experts." A good number of parents, chiropracters, and even vets! So wait, no disrespect to veterinarians (hey, I'm married to one!) but how are they experts on children's vaccines?
I've started a thread on JREF. In my first two posts, I have already listed 18 bona-fide, vaccine supporting pediatricians. Not parents. Not nurses. Not chiropracters. Not authors. But actual pediatricians.
Posted by: Pablo | June 23, 2009 12:34 PM
Tanja,
I would suggest you start here:
http://www.kttl.helsinki.fi/frontpage.asp?route=4.752
and here:
http://www.kll.helsinki.fi/frontpage.asp?route=2.100
These are local sources for you, and could point you in the correct direction.
In fact, any university hospital, pediatric association or public health department would have more "vaccine supporters" than the number of scientists or medical professionals in the world who are "vaccine deniers".
Prometheus
Posted by: Prometheus | June 23, 2009 12:59 PM
Tanja, some more information on the author, John Scudamore, of the whale.to website:
http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=998
Posted by: HCN | June 23, 2009 3:25 PM
Thank You for answers and links!
Pablo - Finland was right, and I'm actually very taken that You know it's in Scandinavia, quite many people think it's part of Russia. Most of the doctors in here are totally pro-vaccination (but according to the anti-vaccers are paid by the vaccination-industry to be so). Children actually get their vaccinations here in child health clinics ("neuvola") by "public health nurses", not usually by doctors.
This whole thing (for me) started in this "parenting web site"; there was discussion about vaccines (mostly negative), and I know it's usually a time totally wasted to try to take part in these, but this time the accusations against vaccines (autism, autoimmune diseases, cancer, low sperm count for men, chromosomal mutations which harm not only You but Your children too, and their children, etc.) were just too unbelieveable for me to just be quiet. One problem (for me) is that I am not MD, but DVM (no offence taken here either Pablo, say Hi! to Your spouse from a colleague in Finland), so I really am no specialist in childrens vaccination and all the side effects they can have, but I know the basics about vaccines (and maybe a little bit more than a "regular practicing vet" since I teach immunology and thus have had to read quite much "extra" about it). It has taken me massive amount of time to check up different facts from litterature, Pubmed etc., since I can't make stuff up like the anti-vaccers can. Unfortunately I should be doing my "real work" also, what a shame I don't get money from the vaccine-industry to hire me someone to do the lab work...
OK, such a list would be just too long.
And, all the people signing it would be bribed anyway, so why bother. That, by the way, is the "problem" with those links in the post made by Prometheus; they are the "official side", which is not to be trusted - according to these people.
But in these parental forums it might be a good idea to post links which make these websites of the anti-vaccers to look not-so-trustworthy, so that the "regular people" might really think twice before they believe anything on those.
Thanks again, and I'll definitely visit here again - one of the most enjoyable part of this "project" has been finding this site, and some other sites mentioned here!
Posted by: Tanja | June 25, 2009 7:28 AM