Respectful Insolence

Let’s face it, I’ve been at this “anti-antii-vax” thing for quite a while now. This December, this blog will have been in existence for five years. Even before that cold, gray Saturday afternoon nearly five years ago when, on a whim, I started up a blog on Blogspot that became the first incarnation of Respectful Insolence, I had been a regular presence on the Usenet newsgroup misc.health.alternative for at least three years before that. There, besides quackery, I got my first taste of the lies of the anti-vaccine movement from the likes of denizens of the newsgroup like Jan Drew and Ilena Rosenthal, who’s best known for her silicone breast implant conspiracy theories but by the principles of crank magnetism is also an anti-vaccinationist, to name a couple.

I’m not mentioning this to show what an old fart I am, blogospherically speaking, but rather to say that I’ve been around a while. I thought I had knew about pretty much every major anti-vaccine website and blog out there, and my connections usually let me know about new ones very rapidly. So it was to my surprise to see that there’s a slick new anti-vaccine website in town, and that it’s been around at least a month now. Worse, it’s a website that’s using the authority of physicians to try to persuade the public that it’s not a load of pseudoscience. Echoing the infamous website of the granddaddy of modern anti-vaccine groups, the National Vaccine Information Center (which I’ve blogged about before, natch!), this website is known as the Medical Voices Vaccine Information Center.

If there’s one thing I can say about it, it’s run, don’t walk, away from these doctors.

But who are the doctors who are responsible for this happy haven of anti-vaccine pseudoscience and quackery? I’ll get to that in a minute, along with a discussion of just how bad this site is. But, first, let’s see what it’s all about:

About
Medical Voices Vaccine Information Center brings awareness of vaccine issues to the forefront via medical doctors. Newly under development as of July 2009, the site will quickly become a massive library of articles, videos and presentations by doctors speaking out on the dangers of vaccines. The aim is to be an educational site for doctors who are beginning to question and become aware of the problems caused by vaccines and, additionally, a go-to resource for the public at large.

Vision Statement
Medical Voices Vaccine Information Center will become the most comprehensive educational center on the Internet for physicians seeking the truth about vaccines. This will change healthcare as we know it.

Mission Statement
Medical Voices Vaccine Information Center will provide educational tools through media including articles, videos, podcasts and webinars to everyone seeking the truth about vaccines.

Ugh. It figures. They’d have to have the “vision thing” down, wouldn’t they? Too bad it’s a vision of resurgent infectious diseases, suffering, and death. I do like the the antivax-speak, though. “beginning to question and become aware of the problems caused by vaccines” is code for “turning into an anti-vaccine loon,” and this website is there to help you along that path if you’re so inclined–with the authority of doctors, yet. Of course, to such people, the “truth” about vaccines is anything but, and it’s really sad to see physicians promoting misinformation and anti-vaccine canards. Indeed, I find this far more disturbing than even seeing Dr. Michael Egnor butcher biology and evolution. While Dr. Egnor only endangers the brains of those who listen to them, these physicians endanger public health by discouraging vaccination, a profound betrayal of their Hippocratic Oath.

So who’s behind this propaganda site? Let’s take a look:

Board of Directors
Sherri Tenpenny, DO
Mayer Eisenstein, MD, JD, MPH

Board of Advisors
Harold Buttram, MD
Professor Leo Rebello, ND, MD, PhD, DSc., F.F.Hom., DHS, MBA

President
Nick Haas

In case you don’t know who these “luminaries” are, Sherri Tenpenny is an infamous anti-vaccine activist whose website, book (Saying No To Vaccines), book blog, and blog are chock full of vaccine pseudoscience. Heck, she even has her own page on Whale.to and has appeared on über-crank Alex Jones’ show (he of Prison Planet) to lay down some fine conspiracy mongering about the swine flu. Yes, if I were looking for reliable information about vaccines, Dr. Tenpenny is someone I’d go to…not.

Then there’s Mayer Eisenstein. We’ve encountered Dr. Eisenstein multiple times before, first making data-free claims about how there is virtually no autism among the unvaccinated children in his crunchy Homefirst practice, a story that later morphed into a claim for actual data. Despite that, he never published. Most recently, Dr. Eisenstein has fallen for the quackery of Mark and David Geier, in which the powerful anti-sex hormone drug Lupron is being touted as a treatment for autism and been written up in the Chicago Tribune for the incompetence of physicians in his practice.

Harold Buttram is a particularly despicable anti-vaccine loon. A member of the wingnut organization Association of American Physicians and Scientists (which publishes JPANDS), Dr. Buttram is known for claiming that the shaken baby syndrome is in reality due to vaccine injury and not physical trauma. He has published articles in JPANDS and elswhere arguing just that. Indeed, what makes him most contemptible to me is that he lent his idea to the effort to get baby killer Alan Yurko off for his crime. Not surprisingly, Dr. Buttram also has his own page on Whale.to.

As for Professor Leo Rebello, ND, MD, PhD, DSc., F.F.Hom., DHS, MBA, I really don’t know much about him other than that he really, really needs to realize that putting that many initials after his name does not impress, particularly given that a doctor of Naturopathy and what looks like a degree in homeopathy are not exactly the best way to build credibility as a science-based source. Indeed, his website is full of anti-vaccine pseudoscience, complete with this picture:

i-2a54cd4740cae4ecb3b7c84feee1efa7-vaccineinjection.jpg

And this rant:

The lethal brew called the vaccinations made from disease cells and so many obnoxious ingredients do not build up immunity. Rather these vaccines are introduced to create more diseases. As I have said in my new doctor’s oath, vaccinations are worse than rape. It is heinous and those who have made vaccination mandatory, like in USA and in the EU countries, are the mass murderers. Hitler pales into insignificance when it comes to genocide of small children due to vaccinations.

Vaccines are “worse than rape”? Vaccines are “genocide” that makes Hitler’s crimes “pale into significance”? Nice to see the MVVIC has two such voices of reason as Drs. Buttram and Rebello, isn’t it?

Not surprisingly, the cadre of physicians the antivaccine zealots behind the MVVIC have gotten to contribute articles and other material to the website are just as bad. For example, there’s Joe Mercola dutifully repeating the now utterly discredited claim that mercury in vaccines causes autism and the same old misinformation about the HPV vaccine that I’ve blogged about before. Then there’s surgeon and antivaccinationist Russel Blaylock, who is known for articles claiming that vaccines don’t stop disease and that they cause autism, Gulf War Syndrome, Alzheimer’s disease, and Parkinson’s disease, chimes in with a piece from his usual oeuvre, this time engaging in a little fear mongering about the swine flu vaccine. Finally, our old friend, Dr. Rashid Buttar, the man who’s been sanctioned by the North Carolina State Medical Board (which he called a “rabid dog“) for treating cancer patients with ineffective remedies and children with autism with a wide variety of woo. including urine injections, makes an appearance with a number of videos.

Wow. That’s some lineup, don’t you think? It’s a veritable “all-star” team of anti-vaccine pseudoscience.

If any of the creators of the MVVIC were to see this, no doubt they’d accuse me of doing nothing more than flinging ad hominems. They might have a point if it weren’t for the fact that everything I’ve written goes right to the credibility of the source, specifically the NVIC. Besides, there doesn’t appear to be anything on the MVVIC about which I haven’t written science- and evidence-based analyses before, sometimes in nauseating detail. It’s all pretty much the same sort of anti-vaccine propaganda that I’ve dealt with time and time again over the last four years. Even so, the MVVIC is such a–shall we say?–target-rich environment that I think I’ll bookmark the page and keep an eye on the new material that will be showing up there in case I’m ever short of blogging material. I’ll probably end up thinking of the MVVIC as a new NaturalNews.com, only about vaccines. In other words, it looks as though it will evolve into an endless supply of antivaccine pseudoscience and paranoia, a place where I can always go whenever I need blogging material and be assured of finding some bit of pseudoscience to skewer gleefully with science.

Heck, I may even register for the private “physician area.” I’m guessing that’s where the real craziness resides.

Comments

  1. #1 Paul Browne
    August 13, 2009

    So medical quackery provides further proof that when you go out far enough at each end of the old left-right spectrum you meet round the back somewhere…

    …and it’s not a nice place!

  2. #2 DrWonderful
    August 13, 2009

    So happy to see you pick on your own too.

  3. #3 The Hypocrisy! It Burns!!
    August 13, 2009

    So, anyone who disagrees with Orac is anti-vaccine/anti-science. As if David is the only voice of reason in the Medical/scientific community.

    What an arrogant, conceited little prick you are, David. You are absolutely repulsive.

  4. #4 Richard Eis
    August 13, 2009

    So, it’s a new website, by old anti-vaccinationists. Seems more like they are circling the drain to me.

  5. #5 Tezcatlipoca
    August 13, 2009

    re #3

    I’ll take strawman for 200 Alex. Bonus! Today’s daily double…what is an ad hominem…

  6. #6 Becky Fisseux
    August 13, 2009

    Given that the JABS forum in the UK has quietened down to the level of just reposting loony stuff from naturalnews and mercola, I ought to take a look at this… Hey – in some quarters, having your own page on Whale.To is considered a badge of honour!

    http://www.whale.to/a/jabs1.html

    John “Pigfucker” Scudamore finds me so annoying he gave me my own page. Maybe he fancies me. ;-)

    Being briefly serious… I see a lot of new anti-vax sites and forums kick off – very few of them ever get more than a few posts before they descend into obscurity. John Stone and Clifford Miller’s “ChildHealthSafety” blog for one, and various others.

    All it takes is a few posts pointing out some facts and science, and either the contibutors shut up, or the site owners introduce moderation, and then realise that it’s a harder job than they thought.

    You have to have a grudging respect for the people who run sites like JABS, AOA etc, in that they’re prepared to put the hard work in to filter and moderate their sites in the face of all the evidence – and still keep talking shit.

    I wouldn’t worry too much about this site – but if it offers coomments – keep making those comments.

    Kind regards,

    Becky

  7. #7 Leanne
    August 13, 2009

    Admittedly, I don’t spend a lot of time at these sites. I tend to spend my time with my non-vaccine damaged autistic child. But, is it a usual theme to claim that vaccines don’t prevent disease? That just seems ridiculous. Not that all of it isn’t ridiculous but….

  8. #8 Denice Walter
    August 13, 2009

    For more anti-vax lunacy(of the H1N1 variety):see Adams’ NaturalNews(8/13),where he makes “educated”(sic) guesses about best case/worst case scenarios for the upcoming flu season.Seriously,you can’t make stuff like this up – although Adams *does*!

  9. #9 Scott N
    August 13, 2009

    Not many feedback options at the site… I looked it over and found no place to leave comments… I voted down all their videos though, and you should do the same (they all only have one or two votes so far).

    It is a scary, polished web site… lots of folks with lab coats…

  10. #10 Ciara
    August 13, 2009

    “The lethal brew called the vaccinations made from disease cells and so many obnoxious ingredients do not build up immunity. Rather these vaccines are introduced to create more diseases. As I have said in my new doctor’s oath, vaccinations are worse than rape. It is heinous and those who have made vaccination mandatory, like in USA and in the EU countries, are the mass murderers. Hitler pales into insignificance when it comes to genocide of small children due to vaccinations.”

    That truly makes me ill. It scares me, the lengths people will go to spread untruths.

  11. #11 Todd W.
    August 13, 2009

    @Leanne

    But, is it a usual theme to claim that vaccines don’t prevent disease?

    At least one person usually brings it up in a thread. The anti-vax camp likes to point to disease rates from the CDC that were “on a downward trend” before vaccines, yet they fail to mention that once vaccines were introduced, the rates dropped dramatically, far more than the “natural” trend they point to (which was only looking at a few years to begin with).

    There are quite a few who go so far as to deny the germ theory of disease, saying that the bacteria and viruses don’t actually do any harm.

  12. #12 Science Mom
    August 13, 2009

    So, anyone who disagrees with Orac is anti-vaccine/anti-science. As if David is the only voice of reason in the Medical/scientific community.

    Actually, there are many voices of reason in the medical/scientific community and not-so-amazingly, come to the conclusion that vaccines are beneficial. This isn’t a philosophical debate; it’s a scientific one so mere disagreement is moot. There is science and then there is the spew that these anti-vax sites vomit out and call it science.

    What an arrogant, conceited little prick you are, David. You are absolutely repulsive.

    And that’s what you call rebuttal? No wonder ‘your side’ will never pull yourselves out of the ignorant abyss that you are stuck in.

  13. #13 Dave
    August 13, 2009

    The anti-vax camp likes to point to disease rates from the CDC that were “on a downward trend” before vaccines, yet they fail to mention that once vaccines were introduced, the rates dropped dramatically, far more than the “natural” trend they point to (which was only looking at a few years to begin with).

    Well, their favorite tactic is to point out that mortality from a given disease was on the way down before the vaccine was introduced. In many cases (measles, for example), the actual incidence of disease did not change until the vaccine was introduced, at which point it dropped like a stone.

    When faced with those facts, they retreat to idiotic defenses like “well, the disease was still around, but doctors refused to recognize it because the patients had been vaccinated.”

  14. #14 Orac
    August 13, 2009

    So, anyone who disagrees with Orac is anti-vaccine/anti-science.

    No, anyone who spouts anti-scientific fear mongering nonsense about vaccines like the sort of material that is found on the MVVIC website is anti-science and anti-vaccine.

  15. #15 Ramel
    August 13, 2009

    Idiots at #2 and #3 in the comments? They are definatly getting quicker, I wonder if they have some kind of detection system in place to pick up on anyone who dares disagree with them…

  16. #16 Ticktock
    August 13, 2009

    I just wrote about Dr. Tenpenny on my blog. She’s an osteopath, a medical tradition started by a civil war surgeon who literally thought the best way to cure a kid of whooping cough was to wring his neck and shake him vigorously.

    Plus, Dr. Tenpenny sells homeopathic remedies on her site. I pointed out how stupidly hypocritical it is that she attacks the flu vaccine for having avian protein (its incubated in an egg) when her homeopathic flu remedy is made from the liver of a decapitated duck and other disgusting ingredients (not that it matters, sine it’s all diluted a million times).

  17. #17 Dangerous Bacon
    August 13, 2009

    It’s nice that MVVIC shot its attempt at credibility in the head right off, with vaccines said to be worse than rape and making Hitler pale into insignificance. That’s a whopping, toxin-laden dose of the crazy right there.

    In case anyone is curious about Leo Rebello’s Revised Oath for doctors, it’s available in its complete glory here:

    http://www.petitiononline.com/dlr28klr/petition.html

    It includes the following:

    “I shall not rape tiny tots with mercury laced innoculations or vaccinations, for they pollute the blood stream of small children leading to serious diseases like AIDS, Cancers, Autism, etc.;
    I shall not prescribe lethal drugs, like anti-retrovirals, chemotherapy, or give ECT to my patients…”If I cannot treat a disease, I shall not say that AIDS, cancers, diabetes has no cure.
    But will tell the patient to try other systems of medicine.”

    But especially, seek out crank magnetism – it’s better than copper bracelets.

    Unfortunately, Dr. Rebello violates his own preachings even before his oath is finished:

    “I shall not frighten my patients with unnecessary comments, opinions or advice.”

    Orac said: “As for Professor Leo Rebello, ND, MD, PhD, DSc., F.F.Hom., DHS, MBA, I really don’t know much about him other than that he really, really needs to realize that putting that many initials after his name does not impress”

    Indeed, he doesn’t boast of being an FAAP, like our antivax master of Pediatricks*, Dr. Jay Gordon. Can’t get anywhere without an FAAP.

    *This is the title of one section on Dr. Jay’s website, which as a whole should be given the name Stupid Pediatricks.

  18. #18 Enkidu
    August 13, 2009

    I love how the article on the swine flu by Russell Blaylock ends with “There are much safer ways to protect oneself from this flu virus, such as higher doses of vitamin D3, selective immune enhancement using supplements, and a good diet.”

    Gee, I wonder whose website one is supposed to go to get their “immune enhancing supplements?” And yet Blaylock has the audacity to pull the pharma is evil and “in it for the money” shtick.

  19. #19 James Sweet
    August 13, 2009

    Well, their favorite tactic is to point out that mortality from a given disease was on the way down before the vaccine was introduced. In many cases (measles, for example), the actual incidence of disease did not change until the vaccine was introduced, at which point it dropped like a stone.

    It’s more insidious than that even — they trot out the mortality charts, but don’t actually call it that. They say something vague like “the measles rate” and hope that nobody notices.

    And yes, a large portion of the anti-vax movement actually believes that vaccines have had no effect on the incidence of disease. It truly boggles the mind…

  20. #20 Science Mom
    August 13, 2009

    “Dr.” Leo Rebello appears to be a self-promoting, imaginative crank with no education and an AIDS denialist. I’m so shocked [rolleyes].

  21. #21 rob
    August 13, 2009

    how much longer will it be until there are enough unvaccinated kids that there will be a reasonable sample size to determine if the rates of autism changed for the unfortunate children? there has already been anecdotal evidence for resurgence of measles etc. what about autism?

    (i feel icky just thinking about it.)

  22. #22 DLC
    August 13, 2009

    Quacks and scammers all, they band together for self-protection and profit.

  23. #23 Matt M
    August 13, 2009

    This fall we will see Swine Flu in the northern hemisphere, at full strength. Reports are that the young are suffering disproportionally, and are listed as priority recipients of the vaccine, when it is offered. I assume that the anti-vaxers will avoid this shot, and I suppose that their children will be suffering the flu more than others’.

    I really hope that the rate of severe secondary infections is low for them.

  24. #24 kbm
    August 13, 2009

    I can’t imagine anyone trying to maintain a shred of respectability would go on Alex Jones’ show. Now, THAT is a high level of crazy…

  25. #25 Denice Walter
    August 13, 2009

    Some commenters above mentioned frequent themes of anti-vaxers today;here are a few quotes from a 1960 compilation of (earlier) articles in Prevention Magazine(“The Prevention Method for Better Health” by J.I.Rodale & Staff,Rodale Press,1960):1.”Vaccination is a present day evil:we believe that a time will come when we will be so healthy that vaccination will be unnecessary”.2.”There is pretty good general acceptance at present that smallpox results from unhygienic conditions”,3.”They cite cases of serious upsets suffered by vaccinated babies and even some deaths attributed to artificial immunization”, and 4.”Just as outward sanitation has rid us of some of the basic causes of diphtheria so internal cleanliness will surely take care of the rest of the problem.” It’s *deja wu* all over again!

  26. #26 Noadi
    August 13, 2009

    There are plenty of very good osteopathic doctors who don’t go in for woo (though a larger percentage than MDs) so please don’t paint them all with the same brush. I’ve never received anything but good evidence based treatment by the DO I see including every vaccination (small town, seen the same doctor since I was in diapers), if I didn’t I’d find another doctor no matter how long I’ve been his patient.

  27. #27 Matthew Cline
    August 13, 2009

    Ugh, Seed is still having problems with woo ads showing up. Out of the three google ads at the top of this page, one is for “5 Worst Vaccines Exposed” (www.douglassreport.com) and one is for a homeopathic web site (www.masharosen.com).

    @The Hypocrisy! It Burns!!

    So, anyone who disagrees with Orac is anti-vaccine…

    No, what makes them anti-vaccine is:

    * The claim that vaccines are “unnecessary” (Just from the title of their article Vaccines : Untested, Unsafe and Unnecessary)

    * More claims that vaccines don’t work.

    * The repetition of the lie that the Amish neither vaccinate nor get autism (from Pretty Big Secret)

    * The claim that vaccines are “worse than rape”.

    If that doesn’t qualify them as anti-vaccine, what would?

  28. #28 Stacy
    August 14, 2009

    Hi, vaccines are garbage being sold to you for a profit. There’s a remedy for that: buy MY garbage which is of course being sold to you at a profit.

    Talk about white hot irony.

    I’ll give the anti-vax nuts just a little bit of credit here: they’ve finally managed a web page that doesn’t look as if were created by high school drop out with ten seconds of training. Too bad all the nice packaging can’t disguise the ugly dreck inside the box.

  29. #29 nomuse
    August 14, 2009

    Re Post #26 and osteopathy…probably not news to most posters here, but I only recently discovered that there’s “Osteopathy,” and then there’s “Osteopathic Medicine.” The latter is more-or-less mainstream. The former is undilute woo. Cranial plate manipulation? Ewww!

  30. #30 Pablo
    August 14, 2009

    Why does it not surprise me that a website of “Doctors against vaccines” is just the same old characters we’ve seen before?

    I’ve pointed this out before. When it comes to anti-vaxxers, it’s the same people who keep showing up again and again. If the local media wants to get the mainstream view, they can call any of their local pediatricians. However, to get someone anti-vax, there’s a pretty short list that they all use. The “anti-vax celebrity list,” as it were (as opposed to the “celebrity anti-vax list” where sits Jenny McCarthy).

    It makes you wonder. Even someone like Jay Gordon gets a lot more media attention through his connections with Jenny McCarthy and by being an anti-vax FAAP than he did by taking a healthy but safe position of breastfeeding advocacy.

    As I said before, you get a lot bigger spotlight by being the radical maverick fighting the establishment.

  31. #31 Emerson Cardoso
    August 14, 2009

    Dear zealots of the truth!!!!

    What you guys say about:

    – baxter sending 72 kilos of the avian flu virus instead of vaccine to several other countries in europe.

    http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html

    – Militar laboratory had 9.200 dangerous virus/bacterias not catalogued.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/17/AR2009061703271.html

    Of course, this you don’t mention as you can’t deny, even the manipulated media is showing it.

  32. #32 T. Bruce McNeely
    August 14, 2009

    Emerson blethers:
    “- baxter sending 72 kilos of the avian flu virus instead of vaccine to several other countries in europe.”

    Wrong. It was a culture of seasonal flu virus (H3N2) that was contaminated with bird flu virus (H1N1). This was detected and dealt with before any problems occurred. No vaccine involved. BTW, no weight is mentioned in the article.

    “- Militar laboratory had 9.200 dangerous virus/bacterias not catalogued.”

    A minor proportion of samples stored were uncatalogued. This has been detected and is being dealt with before any major problems have occurred (apart from possibly the anthrax letters). We don’t know yet how many of these samples are “dangerous”. And this has exactly what to do with vaccines?

    “Of course, this you don’t mention as you can’t deny, even the manipulated media is showing it.”

    Or, more likely, the fact that it is completely off the topic of discussion just might have something to do with it.

  33. #33 T. Bruce McNeely
    August 14, 2009

    Whoops!
    H5N1 is the bird flu virus that contaminated Baxter’s culture samples. My bad.

  34. #34 Matthew Cline
    August 15, 2009

    @Stacy:

    Hi, vaccines are garbage being sold to you for a profit. There’s a remedy for that: buy MY garbage which is of course being sold to you at a profit.

    Hey, hey! That’s all natural garbage, leading to all-natural profits, so off course it’s better!!

  35. #35 Pablo
    August 15, 2009

    Hey, hey! That’s all natural garbage, leading to all-natural profits, so off course it’s better!!

    As I have described so clearly in my book and on my CD. Only $19.95 each plus S&H. Buy them both and pay only once for the H.

  36. #36 carykoh
    August 15, 2009

    Check out this guy, he’s into every conspiracy you can think of and, at least according to this, is offering $200,000 to anyone willing to drink vaccines:

    http://spontaneouscreation.org/SC/$75,000VaccineOffer.htm

  37. #37 HCN
    August 15, 2009

    Good ol’ Jock Doubleday and his scam challenge. Read more about it here:
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=322

    And I will now repeat my comment the conditions that shows he has no intention of paying up:

    To illustrate that Doubleday has no intention of even attempting allow anyone to take the challenge, read one of the links in LeftbrainRightbrain. That link is the contract which has all sorts of bizarre requirements:
    http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/ContractPartA.htm (for some reason this link no longer occurs in the offer letter, using the Wayback machine I found it disappeared late 2007).

    Begin quote
    A. Psychiatric Evaluations

    Participant agrees to undergo psychiatric evaluations ….

    B. Mental Health Records

    Participant agrees to submit, within 45 (forty-five) days of Participant’s signing of the Agreement, documents comprising a verifiable written history of all psychological counseling and therapy …

    C. Email Examination

    Participant agrees to take a written open-book examination (the “Basic Exam”) before becoming eligible to receive Part B of the Agreement….

    D. Book Purchase

    To assure Participant’s complete and thorough familiarity with and understanding of possible immediate and long-term physical and psychological hazards of chemicals commonly used as disinfectant, preservative, medium, or other additives in vaccines, as well as possible immediate and long-term behavioral changes that may occur from ingestion of or contact with these chemicals, Participant agrees to obtain at Participant’s cost the following recently published books (the “Books”):…

    E. Written Examination

    Participant agrees to take a written closed-book examination …

    F. Good Health Certification

    To certify that Participant is in normal health (”Good Health”) (so that, upon Participant’s possible sickness or death after the ingestion of the Mixture, Participant and/or agents of Participant cannot reasonably claim that sickness or death was due to causes other than the ingestion of the Mixture), Participant agrees to a general physical exam including a blood test (the “Physical Exam”), at Participant’s expense,…

    Securing of Medical Professionals:

    Participant agrees to secure three medical professionals …

    Television Appearances:

    Participant agrees to make at least five regional or national television appearances …

    Participant Donations:

    In the event that Participant signs Part A of the Agreement but fails to sign the Agreement-in-Full within 120 (one hundred and twenty) days of the signing of Part A of the Agreement, Participant agrees to donate by check the amount of $5,000.00 (five thousand U.S. dollars),…

    End quote

  38. #38 Mark Chandler
    August 15, 2009

    I popped over to see the Ilena Rosenthal website out of curiosity and learned that their ‘Breast Implant Survivors Day’ is 1 April. Oh the irony.

    My wife has Lupus, and has had Rheumatoid Arthritis since about age 11. This Breast Implant = Connective Tissue diseases idea is common knowledge now. On many occasions people have assumed that she must have had implants in order to have Lupus. Some years ago I laughed in the face of one of her friends who I thought was making a joke. Her (nonexistent) implants have since become a running gag between us. Just one of the bad jokes to try to ease the effort of swallowing handfuls of pills everyday.

  39. #39 Pablo
    August 16, 2009

    So it is possible to get rheumatoid arthrits without having implants? I didn’t think that was possible?

    (kidding)

    It just reminds me of those sad folks on mothering.com, for example, who weren’t aware that there were non-vaccinated kids with autism.

    Hmmm, I wonder how they would ever get that idea?

  40. #40 Pablo
    August 16, 2009

    To follow up my own comment, I should mention that, then again, these are the same folks who think that vaccination-proponents insist that vaccines are “totally safe” or some such nonsense. It’s a black and white world…

    Apparently, not having done vaccinations themselves, they haven’t gotten the list of possible complications that can occur (which, not surprisingly, does not list autism), along with their frequencies (what? doctors admit that vaccines can cause problems?). It’s just so much easier to create the strawman.

  41. #41 Nicole
    August 17, 2009

    Yeah I agree. It seems that the world now has two dimensions. The one who believes and support vaccines and the other side who don’t. More and more issues arise that really makes us all confused about which side we should believe in. I think we all need to know the truth about vaccination.

  42. #42 Matthew Cline
    August 17, 2009

    On many occasions people have assumed that she must have had implants in order to have Lupus.

    What, they thought Lupus didn’t exist until there were breast implants? *shakes head*

  43. #43 Scott
    August 17, 2009

    Reminds me of something that happened right as the whole implants scare was taking off. My parents, sister, and I were watching the news and there was a story which was basically “X% of women with implants report symptoms like these.” My sister (a professional cellist with minimal science background, but knows a good bit about lupus because she has it) immediately noticed, “wait a second, X% is pretty close to the number of women estimated to have undiagnosed lupus – and those are lupus symptoms!”

    So yeah, a complete laywoman was able to spot the problem immediately from a non-detailed news report.

  44. #44 Orac
    August 17, 2009

    Yeah I agree. It seems that the world now has two dimensions. The one who believes and support vaccines and the other side who don’t. More and more issues arise that really makes us all confused about which side we should believe in. I think we all need to know the truth about vaccination.

    It’s not a matter of “belief” or “believing” in vaccinations. It’s a matter of what science supports (the safety and efficacy of vaccination for many diseases) and pseudoscientific paranoid conspiracy mongering, namely the anti-vaccine movement, as in groups like the NVIC, which does anything but “tell the truth” about vaccinations. In fact, the anti-vaccine movement spreads misinformation and lies about vaccines.

  45. #45 Pablo
    August 17, 2009

    The one who believes … vaccines and the other side who don’t

    I guess I don’t know what it means to “believe vaccines”? What is there to believe? Vaccinations prevent disease. This is empirically true, and as Orac notes, it’s not a matter of “belief.”

    And no, it is not a “two dimensional world” for everyone. Orac mentions the “safety … of vaccinations,” but he is using it in the proper sense. “Safe” does NOT mean “never causes any harm in any way.” With that restriction, nothing is “safe” as anything can be a danger (I liken it to the SNL skit where Dan Akroyd plays the unscrupulous toys to kids, like “Bag of Glass” and “Johnny Switchblade Cammando Punk”; Jane Curtain says, “Isn’t this dangerous?” and he responds that everything is dangerous to a degree and demonstrates with a soft styrofoam ball which he shoves in his mouth and chokes on it).

    However, when scientists say vaccines are safe, they aren’t talking about never causing any harm. That’s a black and white view, and they don’t have that. Moreover, the doctor gives you a list of the potential problems associated with vaccines, and an indication of the frequency with which they occur. It’s anything but a two dimensional view.

    So in the end, they have to weigh the benefits and costs of using the vaccines. The CDC, for example, panels some of the top doctors in the field each year to assess the status (efficacy and safety) of vaccinations. They are not basing it on a black and white view. They see the gray very clearly.

    No, it is the anti-vaxxers who project the “totally safe in every way” false dichotomy onto vaccine advocates and think that you can’t get autism if you aren’t vaccinated.

  46. #46 greta gisen
    September 4, 2009

    Just drink the Big Pharma Kool-Aid….. Medical Voices is legit….

  47. #47 Scientizzle
    September 4, 2009

    Just drink the Big Pharma Kool-Aid….. Medical Voices is legit….

    An informative, substantive reply. Thank you greta gisen for rebutting all the concerns raised above with a simple allusion to Evil Big Pharma! You win the internet!

  48. #48 Dylan
    November 24, 2009

    So, youre telling me that ethyl mercury is not toxic to cells. THIS is unfounded pseudoscience.
    Dude, are you honestly unaware of mercurys toxicity to any living organism when injected.

  49. #49 Ramel
    November 24, 2009

    Dylan, for comparison:

    So, youre telling me that sodium chloride is not toxic to cells. THIS is unfounded pseudoscience.
    Dude, are you honestly unaware of chlorine’s toxicity to any living organism when injected.

    Can you see where your logic fails?

  50. #50 Wildman
    January 6, 2010

    So Orac? Where is YOUR vaccine science proving vaccines are safe and effective; it sure appears that there is more than enough evidence that they are NOT! http://www.lowellsfacts.com

    In fact you are a one last desperate act to prove any science exists at all within modern medicine. All for profit corrupted and bogus, top to bottom. All you can do is lie again and again and fail again and again to falsely discredit the sources. You along with the failed Steven Barrett. Why do you not learn the true history of modern medicine, and expound on that subject? Hell would not be hot enough for people like you!

  51. #51 Orac
    January 6, 2010

    Ooooh. It looks like we have a live one with an antivax site I’ve never seen before….

  52. #52 a-non
    January 6, 2010

    Wow, the “Stephen Barrett Gambit”:

    Invoking the spectre of alleged failure (and quackwatch.com founder) Stephen Barrett when discussing pseudoscience, in an attempt to discredit the person making the claim. I’m sure Timothy Bolen’s going to get quoted here any minute now.

  53. #53 emma
    February 26, 2010

    Orec. You are a coward. What are you afraid of? It is you folk who are the aggressors.

  54. #54 wildman
    April 2, 2010

    Orec is an anti-real science weasel that either never knew or forgot what the scientific method really is. His mission in life is to bash and trash any and all information that actually benefits human health. He wants to keep people ignorant and believing the big pharma corrupt for profit selling you sickness… lies. The same poison that has caused this.

    http://www.lowellsfacts.com/4th_Leading_-_Cause_.html
    http://www.lowellsfacts.com/Pharma_Corruption.html

    The science is supposed to be reproducible, and pharma is supposed to prove the actually benefits to the patient. Well, when you refuse do that…you end up with this!

    http://www.tolerancelost.com

    Don’t listen to the antivax conspiracy theorists, (Translations Truth Warriors); and end up like that! “Worth the risk”???

    Where is your science that vaccines are safe and effective, that I asked about Orec? We can sure see that the CDC has no proof of that multiple vaccines, especially given on one day, are safe! Read it, it is about as bogus as claiming 36, ooo people die per year of flu; when that includes any and all respiratory flu like disease pathogens known to man, and that the flu vaccine does not even protect for, even if it could. It’s a flu vaccine magic act, Orec; spin with multiple end point numbers, from 30% efficacy into 60% efficiency, based on vaccine toxic ingredients produced antibodies, and never prove it equaled actual immunity in any of the population. Put some thimersol in it and inject it into children and pregnant women. Deny any and all harm. Produce a Pediatrics study that shows mercury improves the performance of school children. Then another one where later Poul Thorsen runs off with 2 million dollars, and the Danish study proven a faud, and which the federal vaccine court used that study as basis to deny benefits to the autistic. That sure was a good deal. Your information is lies top to bottom… Orec!

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccines/multiplevaccines.html

  55. #55 a perfect circle
    April 2, 2010

    Yeah, Oreck (sic), you suck! That’s why you do such an excellent job vacuuming my carpets.

  56. #56 MI Dawn
    April 3, 2010

    great. Idiots commenting on a 6 month old thread. Yawn. Killfile.

  57. #57 wildman
    April 12, 2010

    The public gets it. The chiropractors embrace it. The medical Doctors, including pediatric neurologists, are stunned by it. The pharmaceutical and organized medicine cartels – must deny it. The philosophy is “if they cannot deny the message, then they will discredit the messenger.” This is simply how the system works.

    Andrew Moulden (Interview): What You Were Never Told About Vaccines.
    http://uncensored.co.nz/2009/10/15/dr-andrew-moulden-interview-what-you-were-never-told-about-vaccines/

    Why Medical Authorities Went to Such Extremes to Silence Dr. Andrew Wakefield. Video of Andrew Wakefield interviewed by Dr. Mercola. April 10 2010. How the corruption balls rolls!

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/04/10/wakefield-interview.aspx

    A complete analysis of the main stream claimed to studies on vaccines and autism
    http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/aboutus.html

    Central Figure in CDC Vaccine Cover-Up Absconds With $2M. (Danish vaccine studies).
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/central-figure-in-cdc-vac_b_494303.html

    Poul Thorsen’s Mutating Resume.
    http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/poul-thorsens-mutating-resume.html

    First Fraud: Dr. Poul Thorsen and the original “Danish Study”.
    http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/first-fraud-dr-poul-thorsen-and-the-original-danish-study.html

    NBC 11 Atlanta Reports: Vaccine Researcher Flees with $2M
    http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/nbc-11-atlanta-reports-.html

    Orec, show us that science you have showing that vaccines and multiple vaccines on the same day are safe and effective? What a bunch of garbage the CDC wrote up; some science that is! In your entire article all I read about was bashing the sources, and no real address of the information. WE need to get you some Gardasil, Menactra, and 3 other vaccines and give you those like many girls did; hope you don’t crash your car while having a seizure, like some of them did. You should be fine; all they have to do is watch you for 15 minutes. If you come back all messed up, it wasn’t the Gardasil, and your doctor will give you enough tests to bankrupt you parents, and never find a thing. “Oh, you have a new medical condition”!!!

    http://www.cynthiajanak.com/20081202NewMedicalConditions.html

    Gardasil Victim Speaks Out After 2 Years.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gCVCP8BFrU

    Don’t listen to the vaccine conspiracy theorists; they all have tin foil hats on, and will invade our modern medicine world and destroy our lies about the vaccine scared cow!
    http://www.medalerts.org/

  58. #58 T. Bruce McNeely
    April 12, 2010

    wildman:

    Go be stupid someplace else

  59. #59 Richard
    April 22, 2010

    @wildman, Great Post! Until your mind can conceive the unthinkable…that we really don’t need vaccines, and that we have been ‘socialized’ to think we would die if we didn’t get all ‘our shots’! You really can’t ‘get it’. It took me 2 months of constant reading to actually come to terms with not vaccinating our first child.

    Also, I have to re-read info often just to remind myself why my wife and I chose not to vaccinate. We live in a ‘Disease Economy’. One can watch movies like Food Inc. and without a doubt know that what they are saying is true–because you can verify the information much easier. Is it any wonder the vaccine industry would be any different.

    The truth will set you free.

  60. #60 Becky Fisseux
    May 21, 2010

    Amusingly, the site Orac is referring to in this post is now down. Anti-vax wingnuts come out of the closet.

    Must be connected – after all, correlation == causation, right?

    Dickheads.

  61. #61 Chris
    May 21, 2010

    Becky, I think they just changed the web address to http://www.imcv.info/ .

    There is a very active post about them going on here (you’ll love the resident troll Th1/Th2!):
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=5219

  62. #62 Chuck H.
    September 2, 2010

    My son is not Vaccinated because I researched information on Vaccinating and Not Vaccinating. The information I found clearly showed me that not vaccinating was the wisest decision I could make. This video is great, really helps you to understand the risks without vaccination
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdLMeULoujM

    I then researched what I need to do to keep my child safe and ALIVE for as long as possible. Here is what I found:

    -Car accidents is the LEADING cause of death in Children!

    -In the United States during 2005, 1,335 children ages 14 years and younger died as occupants in motor vehicle crashes, and approximately 184,000 were injured. That’s an average of 4 deaths and 504 injuries each day.2

    -Car Crash Stats: There were nearly 6,420,000 auto accidents in the United States in 2005. The financial cost of these crashes is more than 230 Billion dollars. 2.9 million people were injured and 42,636 people killed. About 115 people die every day in vehicle crashes in the United States — one death every 13 minutes.

    -One out of four occupant deaths among children ages 0 to 14 years involved a drinking driver. More than two-thirds of these fatally injured children were riding with a drinking driver. In 2005 333 childeren died from a drunk driver.

    This being said, I want you to look at your clock and reming your self someone just died in a car accident, then in 13 minutes tell yourself this again, and do it again and again and again and again even while you are sleeping.

    Ok so here is what bothers me, the Govt knows these numbers yet you get a DUI for driving drunk? Around $1500 bucks, maybee lose your license for a year if you dont have a attorney, with a attorney you can get away with several DUI’s, as in 3 yes 3 amazing. They will allow someone 3 chances to kill innocent people, and children. How about the speeders in the sports cars doing 100 on the freeway missing me by inches? Yet they keep letting car manufacturers make cars that go over 200 mph? How about the 16 year old that just left the party with the monster truck with the tire taller than my car?

    The point is the GOVT is twisted and always will be, so don’t think that they would not support vaccines if they were bad for your children, the numbers aren’t high enough for cause of concern for them, dont you see, side effects are ok. This is proven with all the commercials I watch on TV all day, the list of side effects are insane on drugs these days, one of the side effects even being DEATH? INSANE. Unless a large number of Infants and Children are dying on the spot from these vaccines, nothing will ever change, the side effects mean nothing to the GOVT. Money also goes a LONG LONG WAY with the GOVT! Remember to buy a safe car, Don’t put your kid in a tin can.

  63. #63 Chris
    September 2, 2010

    Chuck, please read the months old article you just commented on a bit more clearly. The person who made that video you linked to is mentioned:

    In case you don’t know who these “luminaries” are, Sherri Tenpenny is an infamous anti-vaccine activist whose website, book (Saying No To Vaccines), book blog, and blog are chock full of vaccine pseudoscience. Heck, she even has her own page on Whale.to and has appeared on über-crank Alex Jones’ show (he of Prison Planet) to lay down some fine conspiracy mongering about the swine flu. Yes, if I were looking for reliable information about vaccines, Dr. Tenpenny is someone I’d go to…not.

    If you don’t understand the reference to whale.to, see Scopie’s Law:

    In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately …and gets you laughed out of the room.

    Plus more on Tenpenny!

    Perhaps you can share your research with us on more recent threads.

  64. #64 Todd W.
    September 2, 2010

    @Chuck

    In addition to what Chris said, I would also recommend reading the information on vaccines available at Science-Based Medicine and antiantivax.flurf.net.

  65. #65 Chuck H.
    September 3, 2010

    Listen, anyone who questions vaccines is frowned upon by people like yourselves almost instantly. When I told my first childs ped. that I was still researching vaccines and not sure if I wanted to continue with them he became so angry and treated me like I was stupid. “What is there to research?” He said, “if they were not good for childeren the govt. would not allow us to give them.” “My own childeren were vaccinated and they are perfect.” Well, my grandfather smoked and drank his whole life and he lived to be 83 years old, does that mean that everyone can do the same? No! By the way alot of the information that Tenpenny quotes or uses as reference is from the CDC. Anyway anybody like Tenpenny that tries to make people aware of vaccines and the things that they may or may not cause or do is considered a “Quack” to most doctors or “Scientist.” What is Science? The word Experiment pops in my head. Anyway here is some more numbers that blows my mind.

    •Around 5.4 million deaths a year are caused by tobacco.
    * Smoking is set to kill 6.5 million people in 2015 and 8.3 million humans in 2030, with the biggest rise in low-and middle-income countries.

    * Every 6.5 seconds a current or former smoker dies, according to the World Health Organization (WHO).

    * An estimated 1.3 billion people are smokers worldwide

    •Over 443,000 Americans (over 18 percent of all deaths) die because of smoking each year. Secondhand smoke kills about 50,000 of them.

    •1.2 million people in China die because of smoking each year. That’s 2,000 people a day.

    •Tobacco use will kill 1 billion people in the 21st century if current smoking trends continue.

    •33 percent to 50 percent of all smokers are killed by their habit.
    * Smokers die on average 15 years sooner than nonsmokers.

    NOW LET ME ASK YOU THIS? THE GOVT. KNOWS THESE NUMBERS RIGHT? 50,000 PEOPLE A YEAR DIE FROM SECOND HAND SMOKE? IT WASNT ALL THAT LONG AGO THAT SECOND HAND SMOKE BECAME A CONCERN? WHY DID IT TAKE SO LONG FOR PEOPLE TO FIND OUT THAT SECOND HAND SMOKE WAS KILLING PEOPLE? I KONW THERE WAS SOME “QUACKS” OUT THERE TRYING TO MAKE PEOPLE AWARE BUT IT TOOK AAALLLLLOOONNNNGGGG TIME BEFORE IT WAS MADE OF CONCERN AND BELIEVED.

    HERE IS WHAT THE GOVT IS MAKING OFF OF CIGARETTES AND WHY THEY ARE ALLOWED TODAY, INFACT EVEN THOUGH IT IS KNOW THAT SECOND HAND SMOKE IS A KILLER, THE LADY AT THE PARK CAN SMOKE AT THE TABLE RIGHT NEXT TO ME AND MY CHILDEREN? FOR YOU NON SMOKERS, I KNOW YOU KNOW HOW IRRITATING AND DISCUSTING THAT SMELL IS. THAT IS GOING STRAIGHT INTO YOUR LUNGS AND ALLOWED BY THE GOVT. AGAIN HERE IS WHAT THE TOBBACO(sp?) COMPANIES BRING TO THE GOVT EVERY YEAR. BILLIONS!!!

    # Federal excise taxes – $7,307,440,000
    # State and local excise taxes – $15,087,691,000
    # State cigarette sales taxes – $4,764,730,000
    # Tobacco settlement payments – $7,200,000,000

    The govt does not protect you, it is up to you to protect yourself and your family. Do some research on what these vaccines are TRYING to prevent. People are so scared to not vaccinate because of what has been told to us about these diseases, how about chicken pox, I think everyone I know has had the chicken pox in my age group. It is a more recent vaccine 1995 I believe, give it another 15 years and people will think the worst of chicken pox because none of them were around to experience it and know that it is no big deal. My father had measles, and mumphs, and he is still here and healthy, my grandmother had both and is here and healthy. But now days since none of us hears of measles or mumphs anymore, we are scared to hear those words and think its the end of the world if our childeren were to get it. Anyway this is my thoughts to each their own, see I can accept people that want to get their childeren vaccinated, I dont frown upon them, but people who do not vaccinate are frowned upon? Weird huh? What do people care if my kid is not vaccinated, yours is so he cant catch anything my kid is carrying anyways right? Or does the vaccine become less effective over time? Maybee not effective at all? Well atleast the chicken pox vaccine kept you from getting chicken pox when you were younger, now that you are older your chances of dying from it are greater? HHmmmmmm….

  66. #66 Chris
    September 3, 2010

    Crank alert:

    1) Posts on a months old article despite more relevant recent articles.

    2) Liberal use of anecdotes (with strawman and false dichotomy argument on smoking).

    3) Ignoring previous comments (“Perhaps you can share your research with us on more recent threads.”)

    4) Lack of any real data.

    5) Liberal use of ALL CAPS.

    6) Inability to spell government (and for some reason thinks it is a single entity, and not made up of individual persons, many who are elected by those who actually vote, and a vast number of civil servants).

    7) Missing the obvious reason that “now days since none of us hears of measles or mumphs anymore” is because of vaccines!

    Chuck, go to a recent thread and present real evidence. Yeah, you know a bunch of people who survived measles and mumps, but that is because those one out of a thousand who died are very quiet. Death causes permanent silence.

    Orac, please close this thread.

  67. #67 Scott
    September 3, 2010

    Listen, anyone who questions vaccines is frowned upon by people like yourselves almost instantly.

    Anyone who honestly questions is, in general, educated rather than “frowned upon.” What we frown upon are those who do not question, but rather mindlessly accept whatever drivel is thrown at them. And the REAL scorn is saved for those who throw the drivel in the first place.

    Was there some sort of relevance to the whole smoking tangent? I don’t see it, if so.

    I think everyone I know has had the chicken pox in my age group. It is a more recent vaccine 1995 I believe, give it another 15 years and people will think the worst of chicken pox because none of them were around to experience it and know that it is no big deal.

    I had chicken pox as well; it was more than nasty enough to want to avoid. And that’s even ignoring the shingles factor. What exactly is the objection to avoiding it?

    My father had measles, and mumphs, and he is still here and healthy, my grandmother had both and is here and healthy. But now days since none of us hears of measles or mumphs anymore, we are scared to hear those words and think its the end of the world if our childeren were to get it.

    And if they were among the MANY who had died, they’d no longer be around to be your father and grandmother. Effectively what you’re saying here is that they weren’t 100% lethal, therefore they’re not worth preventing?

    Anyway this is my thoughts to each their own, see I can accept people that want to get their childeren vaccinated, I dont frown upon them, but people who do not vaccinate are frowned upon?

    Given that they’re exposing their children, and others, to severe risks – far more severe than those of vaccination – it is quite simply the wrong decision not to vaccinate (barring a recognized medical contraindication). There is quite simply no way to honestly evaluate the whole of the evidence and come to any other conclusion.

    What do people care if my kid is not vaccinated, yours is so he cant catch anything my kid is carrying anyways right?

    Not 100% effective, and some people cannot be vaccinated for real medical reasons. Not to mention, some of us actually care if YOUR kid is killed or permanently injured by the vaccine-preventable diseases you’re unjustifiably not protecting him from.

  68. #68 Composer99
    September 3, 2010

    Thread necromancer Chuck H. dazzles us all with a grandstanding display of crankery while digging this thread out of its grave for reanimation.

    Some helpful advice, Chuck:

    (1) Don’t use all-caps for entire paragraphs when discussing things with other people on the Internet if you wish to be taken seriously. Generally, the only sensible reaction to people who engage in this sort of behaviour is to dismiss them as cranks and ignore them.

    (2) Car safety statistics and smoking mortality/morbidity statistics are not, strictly speaking, relevant to vaccine safety. We often use seatbelts as an analogy for vaccines (seatbelts involving some small risk to the user in certain circumstances while generally saving lives, like vaccines), but that is about as far as it goes.

    (3) Conspiracy theories are extraordinary claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Using mortality/morbidity statistics as a premise and concluding that “the government” is conspiring to make money off the deaths of people is missing the key step where the actual evidence of government conspiracy is presented. If you have (a) evidence of government conspiracy on these two matters, and (b) a means to link these to a similar conspiracy on vaccines, you should present it. Otherwise your argument is one of assertion and is not to be taken seriously.

    (4) A YouTube video is not a peer-reviewed article in a scientific publication. If you are going to make a claim regarding medical science (such as with regards to epidemiology or vaccines), particularly if it is a novel or unusual claim (such as, for example, vaccines are too dangerous for widespread use or that the diseases they are meant to prevent are mild enough that mass vaccination is not required), then you should back yourself up with peer-reviewed evidence, not YouTube videos. Even Wikipedia links to peer-reviewed evidence on their articles on disease, after all.

  69. #69 Chuck H.
    September 3, 2010

    Well I knew what was coming, the same thing that comes to anyone who seems to not be in favor of Vaccination. Just because I used all CAPS my post discredited
    “Don’t use all-caps for entire paragraphs when discussing things with other people on the Internet if you wish to be taken seriously. Generally, the only sensible reaction to people who engage in this sort of behaviour is to dismiss them as cranks and ignore them.”

    Spelling errors discredits me as well?

    Is this why Tenpenny is discredited? Some references to Whale.to? Did she use caps and spell some things incorrectly?

    Do you believe O.J. Simpson was innocent? Was there not enough evidence? There is our GOVT. for you.

    Listen, I cook good, awesome actually. I learned everything I know about cooking on the internet, youtube, google, and so on. I didnt go to culinary school, yet I cook better and know more about food than my wife whom went to culinary school? If me and my wife fill out an application or turn in a resume for a job in a 4 star restaurant, My wife will get hired before me, because of her degree. All these parents out there that have problems with their children that they are claiming were caused by the vaccines are not given credit or taken seriously by so many people because they are not Scientists, or dont have a TITLE. The problem is you dont have to be a scientist or have a TITLE other than PARENT to know when your childs problems started.

    I dont think there is any conspiracy, there doesn’t have to be, the govt. does what it wants. Its very clear.

  70. #70 Chuck H.
    September 3, 2010

    I will no longer waste my time or anyone elses time, I said my part. Thanks

  71. #71 Rogue Epidemiologist
    September 3, 2010

    But I haven’t said my part: Chuck H., you’re not quite the epitome of the Dunning-Kruger effect, but you’re close.

  72. #72 Rogue Epidemiologist
    September 3, 2010

    But I haven’t said my part: Chuck H., you’re not quite the epitome of the Dunning-Kruger effect, but you’re close.

  73. #73 Composer99
    September 3, 2010

    Chuck:

    What does OJ Simpson have to do with vaccines? The verdict of his case was decided by legal protocols, not scientific evidence.

    While parental intuition on children’s health is not an unreasonable guide some of the time, all intuition and other non-rational thought processes are prone to cognitive biases (search it on Wikipedia for a decent overview) and shortcuts which sometimes make it easy to come to incorrect conclusions.

    A lot of the time, conclusions that vaccines have caused harm end up being cases of post hoc ergo propter hoc thinking. In particular, attempts to relate autism to vaccines have come up against formidable obstacles in terms of lack of supporting evidence from epidemiological studies, in addition to physiological issues (for example, frequent commenter here, daedalus2u points out that people on the ASD spectrum have a particular minicolumn structure in the brain compared to neurotypical people, and that this structure is formed in utero, suggesting there is little reason to expect autism disorders to be related to vaccines).

    At any rate, for people who can show that their children have been subject to adverse reactions from vaccines, there is, in the US, a reasonable compensation programme in effect.

    To reiterate my point: do you have something other than a YouTube video and a pointer to Whale.to – for preference, a reference to the peer-reviewed literature (which parents like you and musicians like me can learn to read and understand, after all) – to make your case? The problem with Whale.to is that it is a repository of pure, unadulterated crackpottery, such that it can usually be guaranteed to be wrong on almost any scientific subject.

    So, maybe you feel offended about not being taken seriously when you use all-caps paragraphs, but as my other advice points and as the above indicates, there’s much more to it than that.

  74. #74 Chris
    September 3, 2010

    Shorter Chuck: “Wah, wah, wah! You are all meanies because you want actual data!”

    (and dude, you would know why Tenpenny is a crackpot if you had clicked the link, the link being the stuff in blue text)

  75. #75 Lennon Aldort
    May 30, 2011

    Why do you publish a blog post like this without a SINGLE piece of evidence towards the claim that vaccines are safe? It makes you sound like you’re just spewing propaganda for the drug companies. You can’t rant for several paragraphs about people being pseudoscientists without explaining why they’re wrong.

  76. #76 MI Dawn
    May 30, 2011

    Necromancing a thread is bad form, Lennon Aldort. Try going to a thread that was at least written in 2011. Oh, and you lose originality points for the Pharma Shill accusation. Try again, preferably in a thread that’s more current.

  77. #77 Erwin Alber
    August 8, 2011

    “You can’t rant for several paragraphs about people being pseudoscientists without explaining why they’re wrong.”
    Lennon Aldort | May 30, 2011

    They can and do, Lennon, because it’s all pseudoscience anyway. The pseudoscience is necessary to cover up the fact that vaccination is an organised criminal enterprise dressed up as disease prevention.

    Here is the real science behind vaccination:

    Vaccines as ‘cluster bombs’
    http://coto2.wordpress.com/201​1/06/28/vaccines-as-%E2%80%98c​luster-bombs%E2%80%99/

  78. #78 Lawrence
    August 8, 2011

    Necromancy from the tin-foil-hat brigade….and link fail as well (its a two for the price of one this morning).

  79. #79 Orac
    August 8, 2011

    This is the post Erwin’s referring to. There’s some high grade, high octane crazy there:

    http://coto2.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/vaccines-as-‘cluster-bombs’/

  80. #80 Lawrence
    August 8, 2011

    Wow – I mean, wow. Although, it does seem to jive with the viewpoint of our resident idiot troll – and the denial of the 1918 Flu Pandemic is more than laughable.

    That’s another website to add to the prisonplant / whale.to crowd.

  81. #81 MI Dawn
    August 8, 2011

    @Lawrence and Orac – there are times, especially when you point out stuff like this, that I am glad any wordpress blogs are blocked while I am at work. I deal with enough crazy without this.

  82. #82 Antaeus Feldspar
    August 8, 2011

    Does Lennon Aldort have a single piece of evidence towards the claim that reptilian humanoids are NOT in a massive conspiracy to take over the planet?? I’ll bet not! Obviously he’s just spewing propaganda for the reptilian humanoid conspiracy!

  83. #83 Chris
    August 8, 2011

    Here is an example of classic Erwin Alber thinking: Erwin Alber and VINE: Intellectually Bankrupt. A graph has a badly drawn line added, and Erwin thinks it is real because it conforms to his delusional beliefs.

  84. #84 lilady
    August 8, 2011

    Here is the real science behind vaccination:

    Vaccines as ‘cluster bombs’

    Allow me to edit this profundity:

    Here is the real science behind anti-vaccination:

    Anti-vaxers as ‘cluster f***s’

  85. #85 herr doktor bimler
    August 8, 2011

    What is it about 18-month-old comment threads that attract Erwin?
    I know he’s commenting from New Zealand, and I don’t want people to get the impression that the internet connections there are so slow that blogposts are delayed for a year and a half.

  86. #86 lilady
    August 8, 2011

    @ herr doktor bimler: We know that the internet is not slow in New Zealand but we also know that there are is a wee segment in New Zealand society who are necromancers and lamers. We have the same small segment of them here in the USA…unfortunately.

  87. #87 mike
    September 8, 2011

    “great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds” Einstein
    I believe that you are misinterpreting the whole issue. vaccines are a type of religious practice based on a faulty belief system. I am not born deficient in vaccine toxins, nor is anyone else. Listen to your inner voice. If your inner voice tells you to inject poison and viruses into yourself or others, without first questioning and researching the efficacy of such a practice, then i would tell you to listen more closely or do a little more research.

  88. #88 Vicki
    September 8, 2011

    In other words, “listen to Mike’s inner voice, not your own or the scientific evidence.”

  89. #89 TBruce
    September 8, 2011

    Listen to your inner voice.

    My inner voice says that you’re an idiot.

  90. #90 Anton P. Nym
    September 8, 2011

    I am not born deficient in vaccine toxins, nor is anyone else.

    However, virtually everyone is born deficient in the antibodies we need to fight off debilitating illnesses… antibodies that vaccines stimulate our bodies to produce. You could wait for a natural immunity, I suppose, but that carries with it all the many risks of getting the illnesses vaccines present; risks, that are much, much higher than those of vaccines as shown by thousands of heavily-examined studies.

    Listen to your inner voice.

    That is generally bad advice; extraordinarily bad advice for those with schizophrenia, but also bad for those who have little background or understanding of human immunology. Personal intuition justifies ignoring medical science no more than having flown business class qualifies someone to fly an airliner.

    — Steve

  91. #91 mike
    September 14, 2011

    I understand that you have no “inner voice” otherwise you would recognize that your immune system is beyond comprehension. You are living in an arbitrary paradigm of fear created by the companies that profit from that state of being. Have faith in yourself and your own body. Stop allowing others to convince your eggshell mind of something that is useless(vaccines). Once you are able to surrender your fear and helplessness, you might rise up to be helpful to someone else or yourself. There are other ways to achieve a balanced state of being, without purposely injecting toxins and viruses into our bodies. let me know of any double blind placebo studies that have been successful in proving the effectiveness of vaccines. Safety is questionable only if you are looking the other way.

  92. #92 Composer99
    September 14, 2011

    Attention insolent shoppers: word salad in aisle #91.

  93. #93 mike
    September 14, 2011

    thousands of heavily examined studies? Who examined them. the drug companies or the FDA, which is funded and run by the companies and individuals that they are supposed to be governing. Show me a double blind placebo study proving eficacy.

  94. #94 mike
    September 14, 2011

    Attention deficient sleepers. good arguments require words. Why dont you hit me with some knowledge. Compose a full thought or a valid philosophy next time 92.

  95. #95 Chris
    September 14, 2011

    mike:

    Compose a full thought or a valid philosophy next time 92.

    You first. Start with a coherent sentence with proper grammar, and we’ll go from there.

  96. #96 mike
    September 15, 2011

    None of you propoganda sheep can provide information on a double blind placebo study conducted to show the effectiveness of any vaccine. Keep taking ridiculous shots at me, while avoiding the real issue. Thats exactly what I expect from people who are living reactions to media hype and scare tactics.

  97. #97 Gray Falcon
    September 15, 2011

    Do you need double-blind studies on the effectiveness of parachutes? Tell me, if vaccines don’t work, what happened to smallpox?

  98. #98 Anton P. Nym
    September 15, 2011

    “thousands of heavily examined studies? Who examined them.”

    Yes, they did.* So did the CDC. All the results are available freely to the public, too.

    I of course realise that you’ll do the standard moonbat howl about the Illuminati sapping and impurifying our bodily fluids in order to bring about the New World Order (with the assistance of Orbital Mind Control Lasers and the Boy Sprouts) rather than admit you have no idea how a double-blind placebo study on vaccines could be done without violating medical ethics in a dozen ways… but it was worth it to tee off on the “Who’s on first” straight-line you inadvertently provided me.

    Yours in decidedly unrespectful insolence;

    — Steve

    * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization

  99. #99 W. Kevin Vicklund
    September 15, 2011

    a double blind placebo study conducted to show the effectiveness of any vaccine

    Gardasil

  100. #100 Krebiozen
    September 15, 2011

    None of you propoganda sheep can provide information on a double blind placebo study conducted to show the effectiveness of any vaccine.

    Are you joking? Where does this bizarre myth come from? And why do people feel confident in repeating it on a science-based blog without spending the few seconds it takes to find it is not true?

    There have been literally hundreds of such studies – here are just a few examples for pertussis and influenza (Google them and you should get to the studies).
    PMID: 2896826
    PMID: 3287070
    PMID: 2896826
    There are many, many more. Just go to PubMed, search for the name of the vaccine and efficacy and you will find them.

  101. #101 Chris
    September 15, 2011

    a double blind placebo study conducted to show the effectiveness of any vaccine

    And one of the first measles vaccines: Efficacy of measles vaccine.

    Look at the third and fourth column of the first table. What are they labeled as? Tell us whose children should be delimited in that table.

    I believe you are the “sheep”, mike. You are the one regurgitating nonsense you read elsewhere on this two year old article. Instead of believing in the anti-vax propaganda lock, stock and barrel, you should actually check out the claims yourself.

  102. #102 mike
    September 18, 2011

    Thanks for all the wonderful useless information. Does anyone know the actual “cause of death ” of small pox? Does anyone know the difference between cause and effect. Does anyone know the potential harm which can be avoided by properly nourishing and educating ourselves. Preventional modalities and lifestyle changes are neccesary to erradicate disease. Pertussis and tetnus are prevelant in highly immunized people. Polio is caused by the vaccine. I urge you to “think for yourselves”. Your dilema , now and always is that you misidentify your own intellectual artifacts as reality. But these artificial suppositions are merely the products of an arbitrary point of “vaccine propoganda” perception. Who wrote and funded the textbooks that we read in school that taught us to “believe in vaccines”? Follow the money.

  103. #103 mike
    September 18, 2011

    These studies consider the sometimes fatal and horrible direct effects of vaccines commonplace and neccesary. They label them “side effects” to get the sheep to look the other way while selling them something toxic waste. They manufacture your consent and get rich in the process.

  104. #104 Gray Falcon
    September 18, 2011

    [citation needed]

  105. #105 Anton P. Nym
    September 18, 2011

    “Preventional modalities and lifestyle changes are neccesary to erradicate disease.”

    Vaccines are included among preventional modalities in modern medicine, y’know. Isolation, too, but a high-energy civilization can’t run with isolated family farms with only limited contact with the outside world anymore… we need too many skill sets to run the machinery of daily life in the manner we are accustomed.

    “Pertussis and tetnus are prevelant in highly immunized people. Polio is caused by the vaccine.”

    Crap, and crap. Pertussis and tetanus are not prevalent in immunised people… they can occur in those whose immunisations have “worn off”, but that’s an argument for more, not less, vaccinations. And polio certainly existed before the vaccine was distributed; my mother was alive when the Salk vaccine was created and she saw the effects of polio outbreaks first-hand. And she’d smack you with a wooden spoon for being so obtuse about so many lives.

    No, mike, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Go read some real books instead of that Infowars crap you’re wading through.

    — Steve

  106. #106 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    No Chris, you are the “sheep”. You do proudly call yourself part of the herd, don’t you?

  107. #107 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    Vaccines are included among preventional modalities in modern medicine, y’know. Isolation, too,

    See that why it’s so easy to debunk these vaccine apologists because their weakness is indeed Science. The fact is they don’t know Science, they just pretend they know it. Of course, we know this guy is a farce. Isolation and vaccination are complete opposites. They know nothing about isolation because they are infection promoters.

  108. #108 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    Crap, and crap. Pertussis and tetanus are not prevalent in immunised people…

    Haha. Denial. 

    And polio certainly existed before the vaccine was distributed;

    VDPV and atypical measles certainly existed AFTER the vaccine was distributed. The latter was “eradicated” only AFTER the vaccine was discontinued. Now where’s your mom?

  109. #109 TBruce
    September 18, 2011

    Stop allowing others to convince your eggshell mind…

    Stealing a metaphor from Jim Morrison. Ooohh, you’re such a hipster!

    Pertussis and tetnus are prevelant in highly immunized people. Polio is caused by the vaccine.

    And with those statements, you have completely blown what little credibility you came in here with. See the reply by Anton P. Nym.

    They manufacture your consent and get rich in the process.

    Wow, now you’re ripping off Noam Chomsky. How awesomely hip of you.

  110. #110 Antaeus Feldspar
    September 18, 2011

    Does anyone know the potential harm which can be avoided by properly nourishing and educating ourselves.

    For some diseases, proper nourishment is everything – scurvy, for instance. Nutritional deficiency diseases are not even the majority of diseases, however. The majority of diseases out there can not be avoided by even the best nourishment.

    Preventional modalities and lifestyle changes are neccesary to erradicate disease.

    And vaccination is a preventional modality.

    Pertussis and tetnus are prevelant in highly immunized people.

    Not in the way you think. If you took equal numbers of immunized and unimmunized people from the general population and compared how many people in each population had those diseases, the percentages would be far higher in the unimmunized group.

    What antivaxxers sometimes try to do is to compare unequal numbers of immunized and unimmunized people, and try to draw conclusions from the contextless absolute numbers. That’s a meaningless thing to do. You could take two things that have absolutely no connection, like handedness and getting picked for jury duty, and say something like “More right-handed people than left-handed people get picked for jury duty.” That makes it sound like there’s some connection when there is none; there are simply more right-handed people in the population!

    I urge you to “think for yourselves”. Your dilema , now and always is that you misidentify your own intellectual artifacts as reality. But these artificial suppositions are merely the products of an arbitrary point of “vaccine propoganda” perception. Who wrote and funded the textbooks that we read in school that taught us to “believe in vaccines”? Follow the money.

    It’s amazing that you’ll tell us to “think for ourselves” as you parrot talking points you got from some website like whale.to or Prison Planet. Why not try following the science rather than the money?

  111. #111 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    Pertussis and tetnus are prevelant in highly immunized people. Polio is caused by the vaccine. I urge you to “think for yourselves”.

    And I urge you to eat a bag of salted dicks. “Tetnus” is “prevelant” among the immunized? The whole fucking antivax argument regarding tetanus is that it’s difficult to contract (along with weird assurances that a little hydrogen peroxide will take care of everything because, you know, C. tetani doesn’t like oxygen). Moreover, it’s not even particularly persuasive among that crowd, seemingly because of a perceived Holy Ghost-like impersonality to the business.

  112. #112 Narad
    September 18, 2011
    Crap, and crap. Pertussis and tetanus are not prevalent in immunised people…

    Haha. Denial.

    You’re completely doomed on TT producing your cherished “primary infection,” Th1Th2, and you’ve been dragged through the woods on it before. Perhaps that’s not fish you’re smelling, but rather an effect of failing to change your pants.

  113. #113 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    You’re completely doomed on TT producing your cherished “primary infection,” Th1Th2, and you’ve been dragged through the woods on it before. Perhaps that’s not fish you’re smelling, but rather an effect of failing to change your pants.

    Haha. Duh. And what is tetanus? It is a toxin-mediated infection. And what is a toxoid? A toxin that has been weakened. And what is primary infection? It’s what you dumb infection promoters often refer to as “priming”.

    Yes, vaccine apologists are always doomed when it comes to Science. There is just no escape.

    Of course, they are always ready to counter with analogies. At least they will try. Haha.

  114. #114 lilady
    September 18, 2011

    Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha Thingy: You already took plenty of whacks about tetanus months ago…and we all shot them down.

    Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha Thingy: Can you point to one (non-troll) poster who has EVER backed you up on any of your inane postings.

    Ignore lying delusional uneducated pretend health care professional troll who needs to be “terminally disinfected”.

  115. #115 Marry Me, Mindy
    September 18, 2011

    What antivaxxers sometimes try to do is to compare unequal numbers of immunized and unimmunized people, and try to draw conclusions from the contextless absolute numbers.

    But you know, Tony, this is the amazing part of the recent measles outbreak. Despite the fact that 95% of the population is vaccinated, 90% of those who caught the measles were not. In absolute numbers, it wasn’t even close, despite vaccinated outnumbering non-vaxed by almost 20 to 1. Almost everyone who caught the measles was unvaccinated.

  116. #116 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    Haha. Duh. And what is tetanus? It is a toxin-mediated infection.

    No, it’s not. Aside from the unfortunate habit of producing tetanospasmin, C. tetani infection is of less consequence than a furuncle. You might as well claim that beer is a “toxin-mediated infection.”

  117. #117 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    But you know, Tony, this is the amazing part of the recent measles outbreak. Despite the fact that 95% of the population is vaccinated, 90% of those who caught the measles were not. In absolute numbers, it wasn’t even close, despite vaccinated outnumbering non-vaxed by almost 20 to 1. Almost everyone who caught the measles was unvaccinated.

    That is as stupid as it gets. If 95% of the population is vaccinated, then that 95% have had primary measles infection by vaccines. Do they get reported? No, they don’t. That’s what Chris is so ignorant about. What is being reported are the unvaccinated who have had primary measles infection by natural measles infection. Well of course, what’s the chance of a second measles infection after primary infection (natural infection or vaccines)? Very little or none at all hence the 10%.

    So what’s causing measles epidemic? The measles vaccine. So please put a leash on your little ones and don’t infect the naive.

  118. #118 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    No, it’s not. Aside from the unfortunate habit of producing tetanospasmin, C. tetani infection is of less consequence than a furuncle. You might as well claim that beer is a “toxin-mediated infection.”

    Dumb. You can get paralyzed by tetanospasmin ALONE. Wanna bet?

  119. #119 Chris
    September 18, 2011

    Oh, wow, you are such an idiot, Thingy. You have even lost track of basic rhetorical sense. I’d ask you point out where I made statements that you claim promote certain ideas, but I know you just make stuff up as it suits your delusions.

    Hey, mike, so you are just making it all up, or are you just cribbing from some Alex Jones, Mike Adams or some other clueless fool’s website? Perhaps good ol’ John Scudamore, the pig farmer whose bum was burned by a satanic ley line.

  120. #120 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    Dumb. You can get paralyzed by tetanospasmin ALONE. Wanna bet?

    It’s nice to see you contradict yourself promptly for a change.

  121. #121 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    It’s nice to see you contradict yourself promptly for a change.

    Haha. You can’t fool me Narad. The only thing you can do right now is to deny that tetanospasmin in the absence of Clostridium bacilli could cause tetanus let alone paralysis. Of course, you are a germ denialist. What else should I expect? Beer? That is so friggin’ ridiculous. They simply refuse to learn. Sigh.

  122. #122 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    Haha. You can’t fool me Narad.

    It would hardly seem to be necessary at this point. Any why are you simpering so much lately?

    The only thing you can do right now is to deny that tetanospasmin in the absence of Clostridium bacilli could cause tetanus let alone paralysis.

    No, that’s the only thing that you can do to maintain the “infection” angle.

  123. #123 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    Oh, wow, you are such an idiot, Thingy. You have even lost track of basic rhetorical sense. I’d ask you point out where I made statements that you claim promote certain ideas, but I know you just make stuff up as it suits your delusions.

    Oh come on. Don’t you always tout the vaccine for causing the dramatic decline of measles incidence during the 1960’s huh Chris? So what wre being reported? Were they primary measles infection caused by natural infection? How about those who have had primary measles infection by vaccination? Where are the numbers? I guess this is the time that you brag about the numbers of how many people were inoculated. Show me the number and I will show you the real score.

    I know you can’t because if you did you’ll just acknowledge that you’re indeed an infection promoter!

  124. #124 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    No, that’s the only thing that you can do to maintain the “infection” angle.

    Of course, you can’t take away infection from vaccines. It is something inherent.

  125. #125 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    I know you can’t because if you did you’ll just acknowledge that you’re indeed an infection promoter!

    Which Th1Th2-speak label, you know, absolutely nobody seems to give a shit about, given its being devoid of any practical upshot.

  126. #126 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    Of course, you can’t take away infection from vaccines. It is something inherent.

    Who’s talking about vaccines? You asserted in short order that tetanus was a “toxin-mediated infection” and then that the toxin alone was sufficient.

  127. #127 TBruce - PROUD Promoter of Infection(TM)
    September 18, 2011

    You might as well claim that beer is a “toxin-mediated infection.”

    Don’t worry, she will.

  128. #128 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    The beer or the pathogen?

  129. #129 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    Meanwhile, Chris is still busy looking for the definition of primary measles infection. What a bummer.

  130. #130 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    Who’s talking about vaccines? You asserted in short order that tetanus was a “toxin-mediated infection” and then that the toxin alone was sufficient.

    Of course, I am talking about the tetanospasmin vaccine. Oh I’m sorry you didn’t know? Geez it’s the TT duh.

  131. #131 Chris
    September 18, 2011

    No, idiot Thingy. I know you can’t find the posts that state what you think I believe, because you pulled them out of your delusional nether regions.

  132. #132 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    Of course, I am talking about the tetanospasmin vaccine. Oh I’m sorry you didn’t know? Geez it’s the TT duh.

    Again, you might as well assert that ingesting a beer constitutes fungal CNS infection with S. cerevisiae, geez duh I smell fish haha.

  133. #133 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    No, idiot Thingy. I know you can’t find the posts that state what you think I believe, because you pulled them out of your delusional nether regions.

    Are you flip-flopping now Chris?

    h ttp://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/08/haunted_by_memories_of_the_consequences.php#comment-5024088

    h ttp://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/03/gobsmacked_by_germ_theory_denialism_agai.php#comment-3490907

  134. #134 Lawrence
    September 18, 2011

    Insane troll is insane – you can’t argue with someone who doesn’t even use the same dictionary as the rest of us.

    Stop feeding the troll.

  135. #135 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    Again, you might as well assert that ingesting a beer constitutes fungal CNS infection with S. cerevisiae, geez duh I smell fish haha.

    S. cerevisiae found in the CNS is an infection. Infection is a breach in the innate immunity by a known pathogen. Do you inject beer? Do you inject tetanospasmin? Do you the difference?

  136. #136 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    S. cerevisiae found in the CNS is an infection. Infection is a breach in the innate immunity by a known pathogen. Do you inject beer? Do you inject tetanospasmin? Do you the difference?

    You’re really slipping, Casanova. What does injection have to do with anything? All you have to do is state whether or not tetanus produced by administration of tetanospasmin sans presence of C. tetani in the “host” is an “infection” and, if so, with what. I’d rather not waste my time with a botulism do-over.

  137. #137 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    You’re really slipping, Casanova.

    Haha. I don’t think so. You just can’t hide your covert germ denialism.

    What does injection have to do with anything?

    As a mean to initiate and promote infection. Of course, injection involves a break in the skin. Really deep.

    All you have to do is state whether or not tetanus produced by administration of tetanospasmin sans presence of C. tetani in the “host” is an “infection” and, if so, with what.

    I already did. Tetanospasmin ALONE, that is, in the absence of C. tetani, can cause tetanus and paralysis. Of course, it has to be injected (or a break in the skin like deep wounds) to cause tetanus and/or paralysis. Do you dispute this? Of course, the condition that arises from this process is called tetanus infection not a beer infection. Yeah you’re slipping.

    I’d rather not waste my time with a botulism do-over.

    Like tetanus, botulism is a toxin-mediated infection.

  138. #138 Narad
    September 18, 2011
    All you have to do is state whether or not tetanus produced by administration of tetanospasmin sans presence of C. tetani in the “host” is an “infection” and, if so, with what.

    I already did. Tetanospasmin ALONE, that is, in the absence of C. tetani, can cause tetanus and paralysis.

    Not only did you not, you just didn’t do so again. Quit playing the eel and answer the question. It’s perfectly straightforward.

  139. #139 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    Not only did you not, you just didn’t do so again. Quit playing the eel and answer the question. It’s perfectly straightforward.

    I did and in fact, it was a long time ago.

    h ttp://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/03/another_pointless_anti-vaccine_protest.php#comment-3417761

  140. #140 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    I did and in fact, it was a long time ago.

    Oddly, I didn’t pose my question a long time ago, so perhaps you could quit pointing at other things for the sake of attention and simply answer.

  141. #141 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    Did you even bother to read the link? That was my answer and you’re just repeating the same crap. Of course, you are a germ denialist therefore your job is to deny.

  142. #142 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    Did you even bother to read the link? That was my answer and you’re just repeating the same crap.

    Th1Th2, you say the same goddamn shit day in and day out. It’s not going to hurt you to customize it to the instant question. I’m not interested in your greatest hits.

  143. #143 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    Meanwhile, Chris is still undergoing an exhaustive research for just trying to find the definition of primary measles infection.

  144. #144 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    Th1Th2, you say the same goddamn shit day in and day out. It’s not going to hurt you to customize it to the instant question. I’m not interested in your greatest hits.

    So are you a tetanus denialist now? That’s something I don’t hear everyday.

  145. #145 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    So are you a tetanus denialist now? That’s something I don’t hear everyday.

    Stupid evasiveness is not more “powerful” than regular evasiveness, Th1Th2. Knock off the bitch-in-heat routine and just answer a simple two-part question.

  146. #146 lilady
    September 18, 2011

    @ Narad: Why bother? Thingy enjoys the “engagement”…even if the “engagement” consists of well-deserved insults.

    Thingy is just as sick as our other (the name I dare not mention) “missing” troll…uneducated, “imaginary” job nasty troll. Both derive their “jollies” from trolling and “engagement”.

    Nasty delusional lying uneducated unemployable troll needs “terminal disinfection”.

  147. #147 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    Stupid evasiveness is not more “powerful” than regular evasiveness, Th1Th2. Knock off the bitch-in-heat routine and just answer a simple two-part question.,

    My answer is “perfectly straightforward”. Tetanus is a toxin-mediated infection. Who would dare challenge this? Tetanospasmin is what causes tetanus, not the Clostridium bacilli nor its mere presence. You deny this.

    Ergo, you’re a germ denialist.

  148. #148 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    My answer is “perfectly straightforward”. Tetanus is a toxin-mediated infection. Who would dare challenge this? Tetanospasmin is what causes tetanus, not the Clostridium bacilli nor its mere presence. You deny this.

    No, I was the one who mentioned it in the first place.

    Ergo, you’re a germ denialist.

    So, tetanospasmin is a infectious germ? One can be “infected” by the toxin alone? We’re clear, yes?

  149. #149 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    No, I was the one who mentioned it in the first place.

    Liar. You refuted it. Check #116.

    So, tetanospasmin is a infectious germ? One can be “infected” by the toxin alone? We’re clear, yes?

    Tetanospamin is what makes the Germ infectious causing paralysis. Since you deny the fact that tetanospasmin ALONE could cause tetanus therefore you are a germ-denialist. Of course, it has to be injected into the host to promote infection. And you deny this.

  150. #150 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    Since you deny the fact that tetanospasmin ALONE could cause tetanus therefore you are a germ-denialist.

    I don’t deny this, you willful shithead. That’s why I posed the question. Now, if we could get to the subpart, if one receives tetanospasmin in the absence of C. tetani, with what has one been “infected”?

    Of course, it has to be injected into the host to promote infection. And you deny this.

    This I do, but it’s unimportant.

  151. #151 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    I don’t deny this, you willful shithead. That’s why I posed the question. Now, if we could get to the subpart, if one receives tetanospasmin in the absence of C. tetani, with what has one been “infected”?

    Tetanospasmin and the infectious disease is called tetanus. The presence of the bacteria ALONE without the neurotoxin cannot cause tetanus. And you clearly deny this.

    This I do, but it’s unimportant.

    Haha. Are you being facetious? You’re like saying that C. tetani and/or tetanospasmin is not transmitted through punctured wound. Hello.

  152. #152 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    Tetanospasmin and the infectious disease is called tetanus. The presence of the bacteria ALONE without the neurotoxin cannot cause tetanus. And you clearly deny this.

    Answer. The. Fucking. Question.

  153. #153 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    Answer. The. Fucking. Question.

    You. Are. A. Germ. Denialist. Plain. And. Simple.

    Even though you contradicted yourself by saying “I don’t deny this” Check #150. Now stop fooling yourself over and over again.

  154. #154 W. Kevin Vicklund
    September 18, 2011

    Tetanospasmin ALONE, that is, in the absence of C. tetani, can cause tetanus and paralysis.

    That is intoxification, not toxin-mediated infection.

    Toxin-mediated infection is caused when a living organism is consumed with food (as in the case of an infection). Once the organism is inside the human body it produces a toxin that causes the illness. Toxin-mediated infection is different from an intoxication because the toxin is produced inside the human body. An example of an organism that causes this type of illness is Clostridium perfringens.

  155. #155 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    You. Are. A. Germ. Denialist. Plain. And. Simple.

    I don’t give a fuck about your senile labels. I asked you this:

    if one receives tetanospasmin in the absence of C. tetani, with what has one been “infected”?

  156. #156 TBruce
    September 18, 2011

    Neologism – a meaningless word coined by a psychotic. (Merriam-Webster online dictionary)

    Remind you of anyone?

  157. #157 Krebiozen
    September 18, 2011

    It’s around this stage of these friendly debates with Th1Th2 that I start to feel decidedly uncomfortable. I’m reminded of my poor mad friend who believed his father had been killed by the CIA and replaced with a double who was spying on him. There was no arguing with him either…

    BTW apparently there were 2 million cases of botulism of the face in the USA last year. Shocking.

  158. #158 Gray Falcon
    September 18, 2011

    Th1Th2, Let me get your logic straight:
    1) The measles virus causes a primary infection.
    2) A measles vaccine is created from parts of a virus.
    3) Therefore, the vaccine causes a primary infection.

    Does this logic also hold:
    1) A car can travel at 60 mph.
    2) A playground mat is made from parts of a car (old tires)
    3) Therefore, the playground mat can move at 60 mph.

  159. #159 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    That is intoxification, not toxin-mediated infection.

    Haha. What have you been smoking? You’re just simply saying that tetanus infection is caused by intoxification with tetanospasmin. Duh.

  160. #160 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    BTW apparently there were 2 million cases of botulism of the face in the USA last year. Shocking

    Botox. Shocking.

  161. #161 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    Botox. Shocking.

    Infection, or no?

  162. #162 W. Kevin Vicklund
    September 18, 2011

    You’re just simply saying that tetanus infection is caused by intoxification with tetanospasmin.

    Liar. I have never claimed that tetanus is caused by C. tetani producing tetanospasmin while in a human, somehow transporting it outside that human, and then somehow causing it to be injected back into that same human.

  163. #163 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    Botulism infection. Is there anything else?

  164. #164 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    Liar. I have never claimed that tetanus is caused by C. tetani producing tetanospasmin while in a human, somehow transporting it outside that human, and then somehow causing it to be injected back into that same human.

    Haha. Now you’re breaking apart. That’s what real Science do to these pretenders.

  165. #165 Narad
    September 18, 2011

    Botulism infection. Is there anything else?

    So it’s settled, then. “Infection” is actually “mediated” by etymology. Thanks for all the fish.

  166. #166 W. Kevin Vicklund
    September 18, 2011

    You’re the one who accused me of claiming that something being produced inside a human was being put into that human from outside the human. This is clearly a contradiction, except in the rather fantastic scenario outlined above.

  167. #167 Th1Th2
    September 18, 2011

    You’re the one who accused me of claiming that something being produced inside a human was being put into that human from outside the human. This is clearly a contradiction, except in the rather fantastic scenario outlined above.

    You seemed a bit shocked. It’s not even an accusation but rather a fact. This is the original platform in vaccine production since Jenner started infecting the naive. In the case of tetanus, this:

    In 1889, Kitasato isolated the organism from an infected human, showed that it produced disease when injected into animals, and reported that the toxin could be neutralized by specific antibodies.

    You are both a partaker and a promoter. Don’t complain.

  168. #168 W. Kevin Vicklund
    September 18, 2011

    No wonder Thingy is confused. He just outright claimed that tetanus vaccination involves injecting someone with C. tetani, collecting the tetanospasmin, and then re-injecting that same person with the collected tetanospasmin.

    Sorry, Thingy, that’s not how it works.

  169. #169 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    Nah, it’s some form of original sin. Tetanospasmin == “tetanus” “infection.” The toxoid vaccine thus bears the taint. The source is irrelevant. The route is irrelevant. Parallel constructions that illustrate the problem are irrelevant. Your cat has rabies. Your mom has parvo, whatever. All that matters is names. Names that map 1:1 with vaccine targets.

  170. #170 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    September 19, 2011

    Watching Thingy’s progressive descent (even further) into dementia is hilarious and sad all at the same time.

    We’ve gone from killed organisms causing “infection” to pieces of killed organisms causing “infection” to synthetic proteins mimicking certain surface proteins of an organism causing “infection” to now…Ta da: Any chemical secreted by an organism, whether the organism is present or not, causing “infection”. I finally get it: Thingy is a Marklar—the only word in the Marklar language is “marklar”. “Marklar” means everything: “Marklar, marklar, marklar…” Only Thingy’s equivalent is “infection”: “Infection, infection, infection…”

    You couldn’t ask for a neater demonstration that all Thingy cares about is the Purity of her Precious Bodily Fluids—never mind that such purity is a fantasy, that anyone with as “naive” an immune system as she wants would have to live in a plastic bubble—it’s all about Purity of Essence™…P. O. E.

    As Narad said, don’t drink any beer—even if you filter out the dead yeast, S. Cerevisiae produces alcohol, so if you ingest any alcohol, even without the organism, dead or alive, you’ve been “infected” with S. Cerevisiae! What an insane universe Thingy inhabits.

  171. #171 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    No wonder Thingy is confused. He just outright claimed that tetanus vaccination involves injecting someone with C. tetani, collecting the tetanospasmin, and then re-injecting that same person with the collected tetanospasmin.

    You’re an idiot. That’s not what I claimed. No wonder you’re breaking apart. Tetanus vaccination only involves the inoculation of tetanospasmin and that component alone causes tetanus. Read #118, 137 and the link at 139. The TT vaccine is a tetanospasmin vaccine.

    And of course, routine tetanus inoculation is not an autologous vaccination if you know what that means. Why do you even bother posting nonsense when you know it would ricochet on you.

  172. #172 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    even if you filter out the dead yeast, S. Cerevisiae produces alcohol, so if you ingest any alcohol, even without the organism, dead or alive, you’ve been “infected” with S. Cerevisiae!

    Don’t forget that it’s a human pathogen. Time has an arrow in this formulation.

  173. #173 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    Tetanus vaccination only involves the inoculation of tetanospasmin

    Oh, please define “of.” Are you rotting from the head down?

  174. #174 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    Tetanus vaccination only involves the inoculation of the host with tetanospasmin. Still no C. tetani sorry to disappoint. Happy now?

  175. #175 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    Tetanus vaccination only involves the inoculation of the host with tetanospasmin.

    I appreciate your easy-going nature on this matter, sardine.

  176. #176 W. Kevin Vicklund
    September 19, 2011

    That’s just intoxification. You claimed that it was both intoxification (introduced from outside of the person) AND infection (produced within the person). The only way this could happen would be if the toxin were produced within the person, removed, and reintroduced. That’s not what happens in vaccination.

  177. #177 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    Actually, this is easy. There is evidence. And that evidence can be used against infection promoters. But you wouldn’t want that thing to happen so that you would outright deny the evidence hence your persistent germ denialism.

  178. #178 lilady
    September 19, 2011

    Listen guys, If **Harriet Hall couldn’t get a straight answer out of Thingy, why do we constantly feed the troll?

    It is obvious that the delusional pathological lying troll derives its “jollies” from engaging us. We all have busted him/her/it so many time on each and every one of its lies, it is getting boring.

    It has no education, is germ-phobic, has a brilliant “imaginary” career in health care and is in need of “terminal disinfection”. Thingy needs a healthier outlet to satisfy its needs for the “jollies”, such as an internet porn site or telephone sex.

    “Trying to get an answer out of Thingy is like trying to nail jello to the wall” (Dr. Harriet Hall)

  179. #179 W. Kevin Vicklund
    September 19, 2011

    Is a tetanus vaccine an infection (produced within the person), an intoxification (produced outside the person), or both (produced within and outside the person)? So far, all the evidence you have provided is that it is simply an intoxification (at worst).

  180. #180 Antaeus Feldspar
    September 19, 2011

    Listen guys, If **Harriet Hall couldn’t get a straight answer out of Thingy, why do we constantly feed the troll?

    I actually saw Harriet start to get somewhere with Thingy, once, getting a straight answer to a simple question about Thingy’s beliefs. I don’t know how far she could have gotten if she’d been able to continue in the same vein; other people jumped in to refute Thingy at that point and it devolved into the usual.

    Sadly, I don’t think the opportunity will come again; now Thingy can’t even answer simple questions about a hypothetical non-vaccine method of increasing disease resistance, claiming that the hypothetical situation must be “wrong” because (not being about vaccines) it doesn’t lead to her shibboleth that vaccines are “inherently bad”.

  181. #181 Th1Th23
    September 19, 2011

    That’s just intoxification. You claimed that it was both intoxification (introduced from outside of the person) AND infection (produced within the person).

    Nah you are so clueless. If something is being  “introduced from outside of the person” then that is called an exogenous infection such as vaccine-acquired infection whereas an endogenous infection is caused by an opportunistic pathogen from the host’s own normal microbiota. Intoxification refers to the capability of the pathogen to produce toxins that is whether the toxins are derived exogenously or endogenously.

    The only way this could happen would be if the toxin were produced within the person, removed, and reintroduced. That’s not what happens in vaccination.

    The toxin produced from “within” the infected person (endogenous) and then was removed can be used as a vaccine to infect other host (exogenous).  I don’t know why it’s so difficult for you to comprehend this process when this has been the original platform or method in vaccine production from morbillisation to variolation and up to present.  What happens in routine vaccination is an exogenous infection. The pathogenic materials in the vaccine are derived from other sources outside of the host. The host is then inoculated with it and re-exposed several times later based on the schedule. Isn’t it vaccination an artificially acquired active immunity?

  182. #182 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    Kevin @174, 177

    Nah you are so clueless. If something is being  “introduced from outside of the person” then that is called an exogenous infection such as vaccine-acquired infection whereas an endogenous infection is caused by an opportunistic pathogen from the host’s own normal microbiota. Intoxification refers to the capability of the pathogen to produce toxins that is whether the toxins are derived exogenously or endogenously.

    The toxin produced from “within” the infected person (endogenous) and then was removed can be used as a vaccine to infect other host (exogenous).  I don’t know why it’s so difficult for you to comprehend this process when this has been the original platform or method in vaccine production from morbillisation to variolation and up to present.  What happens in routine vaccination is an exogenous infection. The pathogenic materials in the vaccine are derived from other sources outside of the host. The host is then inoculated with it and re-exposed several times later based on the schedule. Isn’t it vaccination an artificially acquired active immunity?

        

  183. #183 lilady
    September 19, 2011

    Still ignoring ignorant lying uneducated unemployable delusional troll…who needs “terminal disinfection”.

    The Thingy derives pleasure by derailing any and all discussions by “injecting” itself in. Thingy doesn’t care that it is constantly subjected to criticism because it is so delusional and so sick that it gets its “jollies” by ANY attention it receives. Why should we permit this…when the simple answer is to ignore all of its postings?

  184. #184 W. Kevin Vicklund
    September 19, 2011

    Intoxification refers to the capability of the pathogen to produce toxins that is whether the toxins are derived exogenously or endogenously.

    That’s toxicity, dumbass. Again, intoxication (oops, no “fi” – my typo) refers to disease caused by an externally produced toxin.

    From a bacteriology textbook:

    Food-borne botulism is not an infection but an intoxication since it results from the ingestion of foods that contain the preformed clostridial toxin.

    What else of germ theory are you denying, Thingy?

  185. #185 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    Why should we permit this…when the simple answer is to ignore all of its postings?

    Howsabout you do this?

  186. #186 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    Kevin,

    Haha. So you’re saying botulism is NOT an infection but a disease. Now how does that make you not a germ denialist?

  187. #187 Antaeus Feldspar
    September 19, 2011

    Kevin,

    Haha. So you’re saying botulism is NOT an infection but a disease. Now how does that make you not a germ denialist?

    If Thingy gets punched in the face by an angry clown, and the clown had been transported to Thingy’s location by car, does that mean Thingy was in a car accident? That actually makes about as much sense as calling food-borne botulism an infection simply because an infectious agent was involved somehow.

  188. #188 lilady
    September 19, 2011

    @ Narad: I admit to my failings at times with Thingy, but note my last exchange was short and sweet. I showed the Thing up for its inference of being employed in a hospital with its “terminal disinfection” for measles containment after exposure in a hospital emergency department.

    I also posed three questions to the Thing about its college degree, professional licensing and work in a health care setting.

    Thingy ignored my questions about its education and licensing and told me (regarding employment) “It’s none of your business”.

    I no longer engage Thingy on disease transmission or vaccines because Thingy is a pathological liar who doesn’t understand the basics of science…no less more complicated science associated with immunology, epidemiology or disease outbreak control.

    BTW, Thingy is totally ineligible to be employed in any capacity (administration, housekeeping or other job that does not involve patient contact). Thingy does not work in a lab, clinic, private medical practice, chronic care or acute care setting…which all require updated immunizations and/or serum testing for immunity. (It wouldn’t even make it past the first interview because it is insane).

  189. #189 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    September 19, 2011

    Per the CDC:

    Botulism is a rare but serious paralytic illness caused by a nerve toxin that is produced by the bacterium Clostridium botulinum and sometimes by strains of Clostridium butyricum and Clostridium baratii. There are five main kinds of botulism. Foodborne botulism is caused by eating foods that contain the botulinum toxin. Wound botulism is caused by toxin produced from a wound infected with Clostridium botulinum. Infant botulism is caused by consuming the spores of the botulinum bacteria, which then grow in the intestines and release toxin. Adult intestinal toxemia (adult intestinal colonization) botulism is a very rare kind of botulism that occurs among adults by the same route as infant botulism. Lastly, iatrogenic botulism can occur from accidental overdose of botulinum toxin. All forms of botulism can be fatal and are considered medical emergencies. Foodborne botulism is a public health emergency because many people can be poisoned by eating a contaminated food.

    In the case of foodborne and iatrogenic botulism, the illness is caused by the botulinum toxin and not by bacterial infection.

  190. #190 W. Kevin Vicklund
    September 19, 2011

    So you’re saying botulism is NOT an infection but a disease. Now how does that make you not a germ denialist?

    Actually, that a professor of bacteriology saying that. But to state it myself:

    Food-borne botulism* (as described in the textbook) is a disease, but not an infectious disease. Therefor, an infection is not required, and I am not in denial of the Germ Theory of Infectious Disease.

    *this statement does not apply to other forms of botulism

  191. #191 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    Actually, that a professor of bacteriology saying that.

    That’s great.

    Food-borne botulism* (as described in the textbook) is a disease, but not an infectious disease. Therefor, an infection is not required, and I am not in denial of the Germ Theory of Infectious Disease.

    Please clarify. You said “an infection is not required”, infection of what?

    Let’s see if you really are a germ denialist.

  192. #192 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    typo: “Infection with [insert item] is not required”

  193. #193 Gray Falcon
    September 19, 2011

    Th1Th2: Clostridium botulinum bacteria, of course. And your claim that the parts and products of a germ are as infectious because the whole is infectious is not science, it is mysticism.

  194. #194 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    Is it C. botulinum bacteria or the botulinum toxin that causes botulism?

  195. #195 Gray Falcon
    September 19, 2011

    The toxin. The bacteria simply creates the toxin.

  196. #196 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    Then you just contradicted yourself. Haha.

  197. #197 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    The bacteria simply creates the toxin.

    And if one happened to be able to produce the toxin purely synthetically, “infection of what”?

  198. #198 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    A branded Botulinum toxin. Is there anything else?

  199. #199 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    That choice of quote was misleading, sorry. The question was directed at Th1Th2.

  200. #200 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    A branded Botulinum toxin. Is there anything else?

    And what would one thus be “infected” with?

  201. #201 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    Botulinum toxin causing botulism. Again, is there anything else?

  202. #202 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    Botulinum toxin causing botulism. Again, is there anything else?

    Great. So orally ingested toxins are infections.

  203. #203 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    Great. So orally ingested toxins are infections.

    If these toxins are derived from disease-causing microorganisms aka pathogens, yes it is an infection.

  204. #204 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    If these toxins are derived from disease-causing microorganisms aka pathogens, yes it is an infection.

    Define “derived from” just to be clear, if you would.

  205. #205 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    Define “derived from” just to be clear, if you would.

    From whatever part or product of the pathogen that determines its virulence or infectivity.

  206. #206 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    From whatever part or product of the pathogen that determines its virulence or infectivity.

    That’s not what I asked. Does a purely synthetic toxin that also happens to be produced by a pathogen (and for which said pathogen is generally known) have the same epistemological status?

  207. #207 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    That’s not what I asked. Does a purely synthetic toxin that also happens to be produced by a pathogen (and for which said pathogen is generally known) have the same epistemological status?

    In short, are you saying Botox cannot cause botulism?

  208. #208 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    In short, are you saying Botox cannot cause botulism?

    No, I’m asking you a bare-bones question.

  209. #209 Krebiozen
    September 19, 2011

    I think there is only one person who can’t see exactly where this is going.

  210. #210 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    Define “same epistemological status” considering you’re comparing infection between natural and artificial source.

  211. #211 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    Define “same epistemological status” considering you’re comparing infection between natural and artificial source.

    OK, so both purely synthetic and pathogenically manufactured toxins would represent “infections” then, right?

  212. #212 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    Absolutely.

  213. #213 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    Super. Now, you agree that not all toxins represent infections, yes?

  214. #214 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    Super. Now, you agree that not all toxins represent infections, yes?

    Only those toxins derived from pathogens including toxins prepared synthetically. Both toxins are derived from the same parental pathogen.

  215. #215 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    Only those toxins derived from pathogens including toxins prepared synthetically. Both toxins are derived from the same parental pathogen.

    OK, so suppose one has a supply of some toxin that is of nonpathogenic origin. If one could engineer a pathogen that would produce this compound, would exposure to the previously existing toxin now constitute an infection?

  216. #216 Krebiozen
    September 19, 2011

    I was expecting a reference to invasive Saccharomyces cerevisiae infections which makes ethanol intoxication, in Thinglish, a form of infection.

  217. #217 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    OK, so suppose one has a supply of some toxin that is of nonpathogenic origin. If one could engineer a pathogen that would produce this compound, would exposure to the previously existing toxin now constitute an infection?

    The result will be the same: a nonpathogenic toxin.

  218. #218 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    The result will be the same: a nonpathogenic toxin.

    You didn’t answer the question.

  219. #219 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    I did. It’s nonpathogenic so what else are you going to expect from a toxin that does not cause infection or disease?

    Of course….

    Enter the Infection Promoters. So how do you make one infectious?

  220. #220 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    I did. It’s nonpathogenic so what else are you going to expect from a toxin that does not cause infection or disease?

    If production by a pathogen or not (you will note that the gedankenfrage specified this) doesn’t matter, how does the concept mediate “infection”?

  221. #221 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    It has to be pathogenic that’s the reason you have vaccines.

  222. #222 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    It has to be pathogenic that’s the reason you have vaccines.

    We’re not talking about vaccines, we’re talking about toxins and “infection.” Now, I asked you whether the invention of a pathogen that would produce a toxin already known from a nonpathogenic source would change the “meaning” of the existing supply from not-representing-infection to representing-infection. You should find this to be a simple yes-or-no question, as it’s your stock-in-trade.

  223. #223 W. Kevin Vicklund
    September 19, 2011

    Thingy, is lead poisoning a disease?

  224. #224 Th1Th2
    September 19, 2011

    Go back #214. It thought that was clear enough. No, the resultant toxin will remain nonpathogenic. What are you still arguing about?

  225. #225 Narad
    September 19, 2011

    Go back #214. It thought that was clear enough. No, the resultant toxin will remain nonpathogenic.

    This still isn’t an answer to the question, but it’s in the ballpark. So, a toxin produced by a pathogen would not represent an “infection” if it were known prior to and independently of the pathogen, because of “parentage”?

  226. #226 mike
    September 23, 2011

    No one will ever talk about strong people in their “studys”, because we have a properly functioning immune system that makes things like measles, mumps, and pertussis seem like a mild sore throat or a sniffle. Strong people, uninfluenced by “modern medecine”, industrial toxins, and processed deficient foods , dont get sick. I hope for a day when ignorant followers can start to think for themselves. “insanity arises when instinct takes over for logic”

  227. #227 Gray Falcon
    September 23, 2011

    [citation needed]

  228. #228 mike
    September 23, 2011

    Citation needed for what?

  229. #229 Gray Falcon
    September 23, 2011

    Everything.

  230. #230 Gray Falcon
    September 23, 2011

    I just realized something. King Kamehameha I, the warrior who united the Hawaiian islands, died of measles, didn’t he?

  231. #231 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    September 23, 2011

    Mike,
    If you truly believe there are “strong people” who have immune systems that “makes things like measles, mumps, and pertussis seem like a mild sore throat or a sniffle”, you doubtless have some form of evidence that this is true. Please share.

    This is what “[citation needed]” means in this case.

  232. #232 Tiredofthis
    September 24, 2011

    To those of you that believe all vaccines are good for you, pay no attention to the “vaccine deniers”. Go ahead and take those vaccines, make sure all your brothers and sisters get the jabs as well, fill the little bodies of your children with all that good stuff and don’t forget Mom, Dad, Grand Ma and Grand Pa. Now give the Vaccines some time to do their thing and lets see how you feel when your kids join the increasing number of Children who are now called “mentally challenged” or maybe you already have 1 or 2 who seem abit “slow” but you are in denial, you refuse to admit that your child is “mentally challenged”.
    If you still are able to think at all, try to remember how many mentally challenged kids attended your school.

  233. #233 Gray Falcon
    September 24, 2011

    [citation needed]

  234. #234 Chris
    September 24, 2011

    Tireofthis:

    Now give the Vaccines some time to do their thing and lets see how you feel when your kids join the increasing number of Children who are now called “mentally challenged” or maybe you already have 1 or 2 who seem abit “slow” but you are in denial, you refuse to admit that your child is “mentally challenged”.

    [citation needed]

  235. #235 Chris
    September 24, 2011

    mike and Tiredofthis, you have both made statements that you have not supported with any kind of real scientific evidence. If you want us to believe what you said, instead of thinking you just pulled them out of thin air, then you must provide real scientific documentation to support your statements.

    Especially with the contentions that “Tiredofthis” made with vaccines causing more children to be mentally challenged. This is not supported by any kind of real evidence, especially since some of the main causes of neurological impacts on children include measles, Congenital Rubella Syndrom, Hib and other diseases that can cause meningitis, encephalitis and seizures (like mumps, rotavirus, etc).

    This is an example of a citation, you can find the papers by using the search box at http://www.pubmed.gov:

    Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.
    Brosco JP, Mattingly M, Sanders LM.
    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006 Mar;160(3):302-9. Review.

    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.
    Ray P, Hayward J, Michelson D, Lewis E, Schwalbe J, Black S, Shinefield H, Marcy M, Huff K, Ward J, Mullooly J, Chen R, Davis R; Vaccine Safety Datalink Group.
    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.

  236. #236 R.C.M.
    September 24, 2011

    As far as vaccines go, to those who’ve done their research, we KNOW about the mercury in the flu vaccines and many others. We KNOW the direct result of mercury is the lowering of brain waves and function. We KNOW that, to put it simply, dumbs people down. There has been established correlation that the HIGHEST rates of cancer are in the areas with the HIGHEST rates of inoculations. Years ago, it was almost unheard of for children to have cancer, now its rampant. Personally, I haven’t had any inoculations in over 10 years. Guess how my immune system has been doing? EXCELLENT. My exposure to to other people? I live in Columbus, Ohio.. a major city. I almost never get sick. You like the flu shot? Well, then you know were you can stick it, pun intended.
    BE INFORMED. If you think your government cares about your teeth with fluoride, do your research were it was used and what for and its “side” effects, and what the AMA just recently said about fluoride. If you think your government cares about you getting sick with the flu, thus pays for its endorsement, then you believe in santa claus and the tooth fairy.
    Who are you calling yourself “old fart”? Are you trying to relate to us? Like your the average citizen? I think your another shill. Sell yourself to blog. You will leave this world to answer for your life here. Vaccinate yourself in the meantime why dont you.. and speed up the process.

  237. #237 Gray Falcon
    September 24, 2011

    You are aware that higher rates of cancer generally correlate with longer lifespans, don’t you?

  238. #238 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    September 24, 2011

    We KNOW the direct result of mercury is the lowering of brain waves and function.

    At what rate of exposure? How does that compare to the exposure from vaccines?

  239. #239 Chris
    September 24, 2011

    mike, Tiredofthis and R.C.M, why do you think posting stuff without evidence is going to convince us?

    R.C.M, are you a sock puppet of the other two guys? And did you miss us asking for citations from them?

    Why should we believe any of you?

  240. #240 Narad
    September 24, 2011

    Personally, I haven’t had any inoculations in over 10 years. Guess how my immune system has been doing? EXCELLENT.

    Your “brain waves” don’t seem to be in particularly good shape, though.

  241. #241 The Christian Cynic
    September 24, 2011

    If you still are able to think at all, try to remember how many mentally challenged kids attended your school.

    First, your personal memory isn’t a good gauge of the existence or non-existence of “mentally challenged kids” (whatever you mean by that; certainly lumping ASDs into that category is rather misguided) during your educational career. Second, it’s very likely that you won’t remember “mentally challenged” peers, depending on when you attended school, since only 20% of students with disabilities were educated in public schools before the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA). It was also in the wake of IDEA that the idea of mainstreaming or full inclusion (putting students in the “least restrictive environment”) became the standard for dealing with special needs students, which means that they are more visible now that they are being educated in public schools. As an educator, I consider that a good thing, and it doesn’t at all imply a higher prevalence of special needs or disabilities in and of itself.

  242. #242 Bronze Dog
    September 24, 2011

    We KNOW the direct result of mercury is the lowering of brain waves and function.

    Do you know why half-truths and lies of omission are considered dishonest? It’s because they don’t tell the whole truth.

    The facts you hoped no one would bring up:

    First, thimerosal is not mercury. If you have to lie in the act of defining the alleged problem, it doesn’t speak well of you. Compounds have different chemical properties than the elements that they are composed of. This is something we expect children to learn early in their education. Fifth grade for me. Table salt (Sodium Chloride), for example, is neither a highly reactive silver metal (Sodium), nor is it a highly reactive yellow-green gas (Chlorine). Heck, chlorine (the diatomic molecule, Cl2) and chloride (the negatively charged ion of chlorine, Cl-aq.) are very different. A lungful of of the gas will kill you, but the ion makes up about 70% of your body’s negative electrolytes, and is vital for transmission of nerve signals, last I heard. These principles of chemistry are well-known facts that much of our science is founded on. Do you seriously think that it’s so easy to overturn well-tested knowledge our everyday lives now depend on?

    Second, the dose makes the poison. The damage to a person’s mental abilities depends on the dose of mercury (or other chemicals). Chemicals are not innately “toxic” or “non-toxic”. That’s a false dichotomy useful for manipulating naive people who don’t know about grays and colors. The real world is full of gradations, nuances, and probabilistic uncertainties. Blacks and whites are much less common. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can learn to deal with the complexity.

    A chemical’s effect is dependent on its dose, and different chemicals have different dose-response curves. Even vital chemicals like water, necessary for life, can become poisonous if you drink too much. Too much water can lead to death by hyponatremia. I once had to take iron supplements to replenish my blood supply in preparation for surgery, and the pills had lots of warnings about the dangers of overdosing.

    Everyone on Earth has some mercury exposure. The difference in effect is mostly a question of how much mercury you’re exposed to and for how long. Even if the vaccine did contain raw mercury instead of a compound, the dose is still far smaller than what would be necessary to cause those effects.

    There’s also chronic exposure versus acute exposure: A huge one-time dose of mercury can cause one set of problems, but smaller exposures done repeatedly enough over longer periods of time have different effects. For chronic exposure, it’s a matter of outpacing the body’s ability to deal with the chemical.

    And no, despite what detox woos tell you, the human body is not completely helpless to prevent the build up of chemicals to toxic levels. Your liver can handle you getting drunk as a rare event just fine, but someone who gets drunk every night is likely to get cirrhosis. When people look at the doses, what you’re trying to get away with is the equivalent of saying that one drink will cause cirrhosis. There is such a thing as moderation. You can have too much of a “good” thing, and you have safe amounts of “bad” things.

    Third, autism and mercury poisoning have different effects on a person’s brain. I’ll let someone else elaborate on that, since I’ve gone on long enough, and it’s not quite on the level of common knowledge anti-vaxxers and other woos expect us to reject for no reason. (If you’re impatient, you can use Orac’s search bar.)

  243. #243 herr doktor bimler
    September 24, 2011

    to those who’ve done their research, we KNOW about the mercury in the flu vaccines and many others. We KNOW the direct result of mercury is the lowering of brain waves and function. We KNOW that, to put it simply, dumbs people down.

    You do research? I’m impressed. Which journals do you publish in? Perhaps I have seen your papers.

  244. #244 lilady
    September 24, 2011

    (Deviating from my usual cordial posting at new uninformed posters here…it seems that RCM has pressed all my buttons)

    Listen up Nasty Dullard RCM: Many of the posters here are on the Spectrum and many of the posters here have *disabled children*. Many doctors, **nurses**, chemists, biologists and others educated beyond Junior High are regulars here.

    We discuss science here…for which we provide citations from peer reviewed journals.

    It appears that you have failed to meet any of the criteria for posting here…you may have exceeded only one…my guess would be that you are a high school dropout.

    “You will leave this world to answer for your life here.”

    Does your God and your religious upbringing encourage ignorance and nastiness? How will you answer for your life here?

    * My multiply and profoundly disabled medically labile son survived for 28 years only because he had great medical care and because he had all his childhood immunizations.

    ** I am a recently retired public health nurse and I saw death and disability due to vaccine-preventable diseases; some of them needlessly suffered because of the pseudoscience ignorance of people like you.

  245. #245 Krebiozen
    September 24, 2011

    Tiredofthis,

    If you still are able to think at all, try to remember how many mentally challenged kids attended your school.

    There were only a couple at my school, but I also volunteered at a hospital for what were then described as the “mentally handicapped”. There were hundreds of mentally challenged kids and adults at that hospital, and they were always grateful for someone to play with them or talk to them. Most people were completely unaware of them, and it was only because of one particularly virtuous youth worker that I even knew they existed.

    I checked recently and the hospital has now closed. Where do you think all those children and adults, and all those that have been born since, are now?

  246. #246 Dr. Leo Rebello
    November 27, 2011

    A nut case posted your link on one of the discussion groups on Facebook and I got to read your ignorant comments of 2009 and also comments of learned and dedicated people working to save humanity while pimps of pharma mafia like you are trying to reduce the population of “useless eaters”.

    Allopathy is a bogus science, unlike Nature Cure (based on common sense), Ayurveda (5000 years old), Yoga, Acupuncture
    etc. For more details read my article WAR ON YOUR HEALTH if you wish to learn. If not, keep on exhibiting your monumental ignorance to glory and help reduce the population of Sick USA (pun intended).

    You have published parts of my revised Oath for Doctors. Here is the full version to educate those who are NOT blind, deaf or dumb like you Mr. Blogger.

    REVISED OATH FOR DOCTORS
    Oath written and administered by
    Dr. Leo Rebello
    http://www.healthwisdom.org

    This more comprehensive Oath was drawn by Dr. Leo Rebello in 2003, since Hippocrates Oath is now partly outdated being centuries old. This revised Oath has been widely circulated, accepted and appreciated.

    1st July is celebrated as Doctors Day all over the world. The day usually passes without a whimper. Many doctors have forgotten their Hippocratic oath or Humanism. Therefore, I would like to administer the following oath to the doctors to serve as a reminder as to how important is their profession. Doctors to please repeat after me.

    I, ————, do hereby swear on this solemn day that:-
    I shall not prescribe unnecessary medicines and tests to my patients;
    I shall not give false counseling;
    I shall not overcharge and accept cuts and gifts;
    I shall not rape tiny tots with mercury laced inoculations or vaccinations, for they pollute the blood stream of small children leading to serious diseases like AIDS, Cancers, Autism, etc.;
    I shall not prescribe lethal drugs, like anti-retrovirals, chemotherapy, or give ECT to my patients;
    I shall not indulge in human organ thefts to the detriment of my patients;
    I shall not be afraid of any authority and fabricate medical records or give false evidence;
    I shall not exploit students studying under me;
    I shall not manipulate findings or results to win grants or awards.

    I, ————-, further solemnly affirm that:-
    If I cannot treat a disease, I shall not say that AIDS, cancers, diabetes has no cure. But will tell the patient to try other systems of medicine.
    I shall treat health practitioners of other systems with respect and not tell deliberate lies to prove my importance.
    I shall study Holistic healing modalities to increase my knowledge and wisdom.
    I shall not even by mistake say that “HIV=AIDS=death” or cancers cannot be treated.
    I shall not frighten my patients with unnecessary comments, opinions or advice.
    I still remember what Hippocrates said, namely, “Let diet be your medicine” and shall accordingly prescribe fresh fruits, vegetables and good diet to my patients, rather than tonics, syrups, synthetic multi-vitamins, specially to children.
    I shall not perform surgery, unless it is absolutely must and will not indulge in rackets like amniocentesis, Caesarian section, silicon implant or liposuction.
    I shall work to ban the useless and cruel animal experiments in the name of medicine.
    I shall participate in periodic workshops, seminars, and conferences at my expense or on scholarship (no pharma funding) to educate myself and speak from my conscience if I am called upon to speak or preside.

    Finally, I shall not consume alcohol, smoke tobacco, or take other narcotic and psychotropic substances. As far as possible, I shall also not take animal proteins.

    I realize and aver that a great responsibility of people’s well-being is upon my shoulders and I shall carry on my onerous task with utmost dedication.

    This I swear in the name of God on this solemn Doctors Day and I shall repeat this oath daily lest I forget that I am in a divine profession to heal the world.

  247. #247 Kaye
    January 9, 2012

    I have access to a number of conventional & alternative health sites, & also through my own historical review of data, my overall opinion is that vaccines do far more harm than good, that their efficacy is questionable & that there is most definitely a corporate agenda in forcing people to be injected with them despite known risks. However, sites such as this one would have turned me against vaccines before I had even taken a look at the real facts & figures, because the whole tone of this site is so nasty, vicious and conceited that it shows itself up as having no interest in the truth or genuine debate about the evidence, but only in insulting people who hold a different opinion. Someone above writes “What an arrogant prick” & I guess that just about sums up the worth of this blogger. I feel confident he is paid by the pharmaceutical industry, through his blog, to poo poo any opposing ideas, but by gosh, he sure has gone over the top – nasty little person. I assume he has no friends in the real world, hence his desire to spit vitriole on anyone with a different point of view courtesy of his little hate kingdom on the web. I accidentally came across this in a search, and will be certain I never open anything with his name on it again.

  248. #248 Julian Frost
    January 9, 2012

    @Kaye:

    [M]y overall opinion is that vaccines do far more harm than good, that their efficacy is questionable & that there is most definitely a corporate agenda in forcing people to be injected with them despite known risks.

    Firstly, your opinion is worthless. What matters is what the data says, and the data says that getting vaccinated is far safer than getting the diseases.

    [T]he whole tone of this site is so nasty, vicious and conceited that it shows itself up as having no interest in the truth or genuine debate about the evidence, but only in insulting people who hold a different opinion.

    Tone trolling is boring.

    I feel confident he is paid by the pharmaceutical industry, through his blog, to poo poo any opposing ideas…

    Pharma Shill Gambit. How original.
    You have offered no evidence to support your comments. All you have done is make ad hominem attacks against Orac. Goodbye and good riddance.

  249. #249 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    January 9, 2012

    Kaye,
    I see your message as good evidence of confirmation bias. You disagree with Orac’s comments, you apparently can’t make a good fact-based argument against them, so you decide that they’re nasty, vicious, and conceited. One sees this a lot in political discussions, where people unable to make a good case against a position decide the proponents are callous, uncaring, dithering, evil, or communist depending on the context.

  250. #250 Ingaorama
    April 22, 2012

    And who are you? Sorry..I do not se any information about that..So you can as well be payed off by the medical mafia and you would not be the first to be bought!But usually I follow the money trail when I read some stuff..and I read between the lines your wy home is into the home of the medical maia!..Sorry if I m harsh..but so be it..

  251. #251 Chris
    April 22, 2012

    Go to the top of this page, and check what is on the left hand side. Find the words that say “Who (or what) is Orac?”, and then click on the blue letters.

  252. #252 lilady
    April 22, 2012

    I would reply to Ingaorama, but it would be useless to reason with this delusional, paranoid person from Iceland.

    Inga’s website is devoted to chemtrails.

  253. #253 Chris
    April 22, 2012

    Actually, I thought it was relevant that this person was claiming there was no information, but missed the rather obvious “Who (or what) is Orac?”.

  254. #254 janerella
    April 22, 2012

    Sigh, you know they only see what they want to see, Chris.

  255. #255 Chris
    April 22, 2012

    C’est la vie.

  256. #257 Cindy
    May 15, 2012

    I think it’s funny that Orac says he’s been at this anti-anti vax thing for a while now…5 whole years! Wow, he really must know it all. All of the doctors that he criticizes have been studying the topic a lot longer than him. This whole blog, including most of the comments I skimmed, appears very ignorant and does not at all have a tone of actually caring for people (such as not hearing a comment b/c there is no citation or just being downright rude b/c someone doesn’t have perfect grammar).

  257. #258 novalox
    May 15, 2012

    @cindy

    Concern troll much, necromancer?

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