Respectful Insolence

This two-part video trashes common antivaccine arguments better than any video I’ve seen in a long time:

That’s right. Vaccines educate the immune system, and Generation Rescue is full of…well, you know what it’s full of.

Now if only Bill Maher would watch these videos. Let’s make ‘em go viral!

Comments

  1. #1 Iason Ouabache
    October 2, 2009

    Vaccine videos going viral. Funny!

    Great videos. I wonder how long it will take for one of the antivax groups to trash c0cordance for being an agent of Big Pharma.

  2. #2 Joel Sax
    October 2, 2009

    Whenever I hear talk of vaccination, I remember my own life experience. In 1964, an epidemic of rubella hit my school. Every child except three out of two first grade classes totalling about 80 students came down with the disease. I was one of these. It was a miserable week — fever, isolation in my bed, those red spots all over my body. Four years later, another epidemic hit another school I attended. In the lower classes only a handful of children because everyone had either had it before or been vaccinated. There’s like this huge wave that surged up and then vanished for ~nearly~ all time because of vaccination. Who gets the measles these days? More, alas, because paranoid, ill-educated parents are shying from vaccinations. How, I ask, as a rubella survivor, can they do this to their kids?

  3. #3 BB
    October 2, 2009

    @Joel Sax,
    I remember being ill during that same epidemic. FWIW, rubella is German measles (measles is rubeola). The reason a vaccine for rubella was fast in coming was that on the heels of the ’64 epidemic came a rash of brith defects in children born to mothers who caught rubella while pregnant. I think that rubella could cause birth defects was unknown until then.
    The measles vaccine came later, as part of the MMR vaccine.

  4. #4 Jay Lee
    October 2, 2009

    When the polio vaccine was originally released, we stood in line at the county courthouse in Manahans, Texas with our families to receive te vaccine. A-L one day, M through Z the next. Polio is such a horrible disease that effected so many families. The vaccine seemed a miracle to parents! It was so exciting that science had developed a way to reduce so much misery.

    People have forgotten how wonderful it really was and now take the limited number of polio cases for granted. Childhood diseases are tragic. I was hospitalized with measles in the early sixties. My children are vaccinated for every damn thing.

  5. #5 Catherina
    October 2, 2009

    Very nice videos, the images are a bit quick for someone new to the field, maybe. Only serious gripe is that the Madsen study was looking at autism in Denmark, NOT Sweden. There are good papers on autism prevalence in Sweden, too, but this is not one of them.

  6. #6 c0nc0rdance
    October 2, 2009

    I spotted the obvious confabulation between the Swedish and Danish studies about 5 minutes after the video went live. I had both open at the same time, because I really liked the population sizes, and obviously my brain down-shifted into neutral when citing the work and showing a screenshot. The audio is even more muddled. I’ve annotated the video to try to clear that up. Catherina, you were the first to spot it.

    I hereby apologize for an obvious flub. May the spirits of my scientific ancestors scream accusatory statistical formulas at me forever, and may mycoplasmas infect all my cell lines. I deserve it.

    Thanks for the plug, ORAC!

  7. #7 El cos
    October 2, 2009

    Was anyone aware of this?http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/urine_toxic.html
    We discussed in my anal chem class that provoking agents which are in fact strong metal ion binders are given before a urine test to achieve higher concentrations of metal in urine.
    You end up getting a high metal conc that appears to be above normal although this is actually a false result given the fact that normal standards are not set for those who have high corculating levels of chelating agents.

  8. #8 Pablo
    October 2, 2009

    Was anyone aware of this?

    Unfortunately, not enough people are aware of it. In fact, this was the issue where Jay Gordon got schooled so massively here. The procedure was likened to having a patient run around the block three times and then measure their heart rate, and declare that it was abnormally high (compared to a resting rate).

    Indeed, people who actually have bothered to pay attention to what the chelation scammers are pulling certainly know what’s going on. Too bad there are even doctors who don’t bother themselves to learn about it before recommending it for their patients.

  9. #9 Andrew D
    October 2, 2009

    Birth defects due to Rubelle in pregnancy was known well before the production of the anti-rubella vaccines. When I was a child Parents used to have “German measels” parties for girls to give them immunity. Of course no parent would consider such preventative measures now (the health and safety fascists would be very angry)I am 59 by the way

  10. #10 Todd W.
    October 2, 2009

    Great videos, c0nc0rdance! Thanks, Orac, for sharing this. I’ve added links to the videos in the reference section of my site.

  11. #11 Joseph
    October 2, 2009

    I take issue with the global warming example, which the first video suggests is an area where we have to make decisions based on the merit of the “correlations alone.”

    First, there is a theoretical foundation on how it works. An increase in the concentration of greenhouse gases causes the planet’s equilibrium temperature to increase, with all else being equal. The temperature will tend to change toward the equilibrium temperature, until equilibrium is regained. The equilibrium temperature is logarithmically proportional to the concentration of the greenhouse gas (as a good approximation.)

    Second, you can program the model just described, and based on historical temperature and greenhouse data, you can estimate the “climate sensitivity” (change in equilibrium temperature) due to a doubling of the greenhouse gas. With this, you can then produce a “hindcast.” Here’s a simple one I’ve produced solely based on CO2 data from ice cores, assuming a sensitivity of 3.13C.

    Third, a temporal coincidence (of non-stationary time series) such as that of Mexican lemons and traffic fatalities can be controlled for statistically, e.g. by making ‘year’ a variable of the model. Another technique (not very well known) which can be illustrated graphically is detrended cross-correlation analysis. It’s applicable to global warming, and the results very convincing in my view.

  12. #12 Orac
    October 2, 2009

    I spotted the obvious confabulation between the Swedish and Danish studies about 5 minutes after the video went live.

    I spotted the mistake too on a second viewing. (It was rather late last night when I posted this, and I probably wasn’t paying as close attention as I should have at that point in the second video.) I had planned on e-mailing you about it and mentioning it, but you beat me to it.

  13. #13 MI Dawn
    October 2, 2009

    @BB: actually, it was known back in 1941 (according to Wikipedia; I don’t have my OB books here at work) that rubella in pregnancy could lead to birth defects. But, of course, until the vaccine, all they could do is advise pregnant women to try to avoid exposure during the first trimester of pregnancy (or hope she had had the disease as a child and developed immunity – not all who have rubella become immune). For those who didn’t develop immunity from the disease, the vaccine was a godsend to protect unborn children.

  14. #14 trrll
    October 2, 2009

    I take issue with the global warming example, which the first video suggests is an area where we have to make decisions based on the merit of the “correlations alone.”

    Yes, this is clearly mistaken. the mechanism whereby increased atmospheric CO2 increases temperature has been known for a century. Modern models are more sophisticated in terms of predicting quantitatively just how much warming to expect for a given rise in CO2, but fundamentally, they are simply working out the consequences of the same physical mechanism in a enormously more detail. The correlations simply test how well the physical climate models simulate actual climate in order to get an idea of the confidence range of future predictions.

  15. #15 MikeMa
    October 2, 2009

    I had measles when I was 5 or 6. Ruined my birthday that year and made me miserable for that and the fact that I wasn’t missing school – my b-day is in the summer:)

    Thanks for the videos. May they help defeat the stupid out there.

  16. #16 c0nc0rdance
    October 2, 2009

    Re: Global warming
    It was not my intention to suggest that there is not a correlation between CO2 and global temperatures. Or that anthropogenic CO2 is not a major factor.

    We are aware of a mechanism by which CO2 can cause a warming trend, yes. But I gather, as an outsider to the field of climatology, that the models are not yet complete, that they don’t have a strong predictive power because of the number and inter-relatedness of the variables (albedo, ocean currents, carbon cycle disruptions, extrapolating future emissions). As you say, we are still refining the model.

    My intention was to say that, while we don’t know what the global temperature will be in 50 years, and we don’t know the relative contributions of every causative agent, we do have good correlations between what we are doing and what is happening to our Earth. We don’t yet know what specific actions can avert disaster, but we need to make decisions based on what we DO know about the correlative evidence. Precise causation will come later, as more data fills in the gaps, but by then it may be too late, if it isn’t already, to do something productive.

    I hope I don’t give the wrong impression in the video. I know I can’t please all the people all the time.

  17. #17 isles
    October 2, 2009

    Another tiny nitpick: in the second video, during the description of thimerosal, there’s a picture of MMR vaccine, which never contained it – not wrong but people get confused about this easily.

    cOncOrdance, thank you for making these! I wish some of the mercury mommies who say they have stayed up nights for years “researching” vaccines would take 15 minutes to watch them.

  18. #18 Joseph
    October 2, 2009

    But I gather, as an outsider to the field of climatology, that the models are not yet complete, that they don’t have a strong predictive power because of the number and inter-relatedness of the variables

    Yes, there’s uncertainty, mostly because of statistical confidence, not so much the number of variables. CO2 is by far the biggest contributor, but climate sensitivity to CO2 doubling could be anywhere between 2C to 4C, and some would cite bigger ranges; 3C appears to be the best bet.

    Relatively short-term predictions can be made with some accuracy, though. By the early 2020s the global temperature anomaly will probably be 1C or more. When the 2020s are here, and this prediction turns out to be correct, it will mean we’re in big trouble.

  19. #19 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    Lol @ concordance
    He claims that correlation doesn’t prove causation, but the entire hepatitis c and HIV hypothesis was proved with a half assed correlation alone. Like when Gallo could only isolate with great difficulty HIV from 26/72 AIDS patients, somehow this justified an international press conference and the government approving AZT in 1987.

    So when you guys want to poison people with AZT, correlation proves causation, but when you guys want to poison people with Thimerosal correlation doesn’t prove causation.

  20. #20 Todd W.
    October 2, 2009

    @cooler

    The rest of your post aside for a moment, AZT was approved largely due to the clamoring of people with AIDS demanding that it be approved because they thought FDA was holding up a potentially beneficial drug that could save them. As it turned out, the drug was not quite as effective as everyone had hoped and had some nasty side effects.

    Now, as to thimerosal, if you feel that it is responsible for injury, please provide some citations to back up your claim.

  21. #21 Joseph
    October 2, 2009

    cooler doesn’t even have a correlation for thimerosal at this point, unless he wants to argue that a reduction in thimerosal use causes autism.

  22. #22 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    No, AZT was approved in 1987 because there was overwhelming evidence that HIV was one of the deadliest microbes ever, I can’t find this evidence, because according to many it doesn’t exist. Why would the FDA approve this drug if there was not overwhelming evidence of causality?

    Since you guys Clearly support Gallo’s, Levy and the Chirons corporations half assed correlations that justified AZT’s approval in 1987, international press conferences saying the probable cause of AIDS has been found in 1984, The IOM saying in 1986 2 billion in funding per annum should be provided to fight HIV, and the blood supply being tested for hepatitis c in the Early 1990′s, then if one finds a correlation with someone receiving the shots and getting autistic right after, this would prove causality as well, since you accepted half assed correlations for the massive public health measures mentioned above.

    Remember what Fauci and O’brien said, they said on their government website that Koch’s postulates were unmet for HIV until the 3 anecdotal cases of laboratory workers got AIDS/low tcells years after exposure. If these anecdotal cases can prove causality for HIV, then these 2 cases of people getting autism exposed by the local news right after vaccination proves the Thimerosal’s causality, even more so because the cause and effect were immediate, not separated by years and decades as the case is with Hepatitis c and HIV.

    Vaccinated now autistic.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7h-DPr_x2w

  23. #23 c0nc0rdance
    October 2, 2009

    @cooler
    It seems the AIDS denialists infest every corner of the Internet.

    What is the measured excess attributable risk, or odds ratio, or relative risk of being vaccinated in the development of autism spectrum disorder? Less than 0.1%?

    Now what is the ePAR, OR, or RR for being HIV+ for developing AIDS? The incidence is greater than 20% within 6 years (Int Conf AIDS. 1991 Jun 16-21; 7: 33). The matched HIV- population have almost no chance of developing AIDS (J. Acquir. Immune. Defic. Syndr. 29 (3): 275–283). Greater than 99.9% PAR? I haven’t done the math.

    HIV causes matching immunopathology in experimental animals, it shows tropism for the cells which we see disappear in patients, it’s related to a dozen other viruses in the same family which do the same thing, serostatus is the single most predictive factor in development of symptoms, and we’ve even photographed, dissected, and sequenced the virus from serum, cells, and patients. We know its ancestry, its inner workings, and even its legal middle name (Steven). In 25 years, the rocks have all been turned over, we’ve checked our coat pockets, and even tested crazy alt health hypotheses. No other explanation has been found.

    This denialist movement has gone beyond a skeptical minority of non-scientists about 20 years ago, into the realm of a full-blown mystery cult. The clue should have been all those people in the denialist and alt-health cure community who died of opportunistic infection. Or the inability of all the alternative hypotheses to explain the evidence.

    c0nc0rdance.

  24. #24 Orac
    October 2, 2009

    Oh, Cooler’s much more than an HIV/AIDS denialist. He’s an anti-vaccinationist and a 9/11 Truther, too.

    Truly crank magnetism!

  25. #25 Todd W.
    October 2, 2009

    Cooler’s also apparently unable to provide citations. Not surprising, really.

  26. #26 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    @concordance

    Hiv causes AIDS ten years later (the original window period was 10 months, it was extended to save Gallo’s hypothesis) based on uncontrolled natural history studies (ie correlation) most of which that didn’t control for AZT, extent of Drug abuse, the enormous terror one gets from a positive test, not to mention how difficult it is to prove causality solely on correlation when the cause and effect are separated by 10-15 years.

    Over a 100 chimpanzees have been infected and they rarely if ever get aids, so much so in the NY times an article appeared how special retirement home had to be built for them (rebuttal Durban Declaration) so your claims of an animal model are misleading. As far as your other evidence not based on correlation that proves HIV’s role, well Thimerosal does horrible things in laboratory cultures, and also when injected into monkeys (lewitson et al), unlike HIV.

    @orac. since you call me a denialist and a crank can you describe the experiments that justified AZT’s release in 1987?

  27. #27 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    @ Todd W.
    Did Fauci and Obrien from the NIH provide citations when they said Koch’s postulates had finally been met for HIV when they cited 3 anecdotal cases in their government “factsheet”?

  28. #28 Todd W.
    October 2, 2009

    @cooler

    I’m not asking them. I’m asking you. Perhaps I should use parent-speak. “If Fauci and Obrien from the NIH jumped off a bridge, would you?”

  29. #29 Igor
    October 2, 2009

    Citations? We don’t need no stinkin’ ciations.

    I still remember the time the pro-vax terrorists on CDC payroll detonated several cisterns of experimental AIDS vaccine collapsing the Twin Towers and taking out a chunk of Pentagon.

  30. #30 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    I just provided case studies that prove from an investigative news agency that proves Thimerosal’s causal role. They were zapped and became sick and autistic right after. It was never published, but neither were Newton’s or Benjamin Franklin’s brilliant scientific work, nor
    Fauci’s anecdotal lab worker data.

    Besides, Peer review is totally corrupt, science is supposed to be democratic, with each credentialed scientist having equal say. The concentration of power towards a small number of editors of journals, drug companies and crooked public health officials is the reason science has fallen so low.

    A truly democratic system would let anyone with credentials publish, and this data would be judged by other scientists and doctors without any pressure from public health officials, drug companies and editors of “prestigious journals” whose modern role seems only to be to mindlessly follow orders from the CDC.

    Scientists and doctors should decide policy without having to beg the CDC, the drug companies and the few idiots that run Nature etc. to decide what is policy and what should and should not be brodcast.

    Sadly today science is run by crooked public health officials, drug companies and a couple lowlife editors at Science magazine. It is as undemocratic as you can get.

  31. #31 trrll
    October 2, 2009

    No, AZT was approved in 1987 because there was overwhelming evidence that HIV was one of the deadliest microbes ever, I can’t find this evidence, because according to many it doesn’t exist. Why would the FDA approve this drug if there was not overwhelming evidence of causality?

    Much like the germ theory and vaccine denialists who will insist with a straight face that polio hasn’t gone away, but is still around and being called by another name–and who will tell this to people who knew polio victims or treated them back when polio was epidemic, cooler presumes to explain AIDS history to people who were actually there, and who know first-hand just how dismal the prognosis of HIV+/AIDS patients was prior to the development of antiretroviral drugs.

    And like the evolution denialists who are still trying to argue with Darwin, ignoring the century-plus of evidence confirming Darwin’s theory, cooler is dying for somebody to debate with him whether the evidence for AZT’s approval was adequate as of 1987–ignoring the subsequent two decades of evidence validating that decision, and demonstrating that AZT and other antiretroviral drugs do work, both against HIV and against AIDS.

  32. #32 Joseph
    October 2, 2009

    I just provided case studies that prove from an investigative news agency that proves Thimerosal’s causal role.

    Let me get this straight, cooler. You don’t believe HIV causes AIDS, because reports of people who develop AIDS after being diagnosed with HIV could simply be a matter of correlation, not causation. However, one family’s anecdote about what they believe might have been vaccine injury is totally compelling.

  33. #33 Todd W.
    October 2, 2009

    @cooler

    I just provided case studies that prove from an investigative news agency that proves Thimerosal’s causal role.

    Err…where? I don’t see any citations in your posts about thimerosal’s causal role in autism. Care to quote the post you put them in? (Of course, it might be held up in moderation, but if it isn’t, please point out where you listed them.)

  34. #34 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    @ttrl
    Ok you are saying that overwhelming evidence came in the past 25 years. One piece of evidence you cite are the success of the Drugs. Have any of these cocktails been tested against a placebo?

    You say that 25 years have confirmed Gallo’s hypothesis, does extending the latent period from 10 months to 10 years confirm Gallo’s hypothesis, not to mention the retirement home built for the chimpanzees injected with HIV? Not to mention to this day there is no clear explanation for the 10 year lag, many of the explanations contradict eachother. (Grossman vs David Ho)

    Since you feel Gallo’s hypothesis has been proven to be true over the past 25 years, can you describe some of the experiments that prove this? Can you please not spam a url, something that would get you laughed out of a high school class?

  35. #35 Liz
    October 2, 2009

    … So while we’re “speculating” … maybe it’s not the vaccines, but something wrong with the water supply in Oregon & New Jersey? That’s about the same distance leap, right? Quick – someone send Geraldo Rivera to blow the lid off that conspiracy!

    @cooler – people like you must publish somewhere, or how else would Generation Rescue get it’s statistics?

    Although it is loads of fun to think a couple lowlife editors at Science magazine are “running science” – ALL of science? WOW. They must be wizards. Or cyborgs.

  36. #36 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    here are extensive case studies that prove Thimerosal can at least rarely cause Autism. Local news report of doctors and parents seeing autism and massive illness right after the shots. This is not even mentioning the Poling case.

    Vaccinated now autistic.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7h-DPr_x2w

    @ Joseph
    The difference is the time between cause and effect, with HIV it is 10-12 years, with vaccines it is immediate. If people became autistic ten years after vaccination and not right away I would be more skeptical.

  37. #37 Joseph
    October 2, 2009

    here are extensive case studies that prove Thimerosal can at least rarely cause Autism.

    @cooler: By case studies, do you mean more Youtube videos?

  38. #38 Credentialed
    October 2, 2009

    science is supposed to be democratic, with each credentialed scientist having equal say

    Bullshit. Your idea of science is some post-modernist fantasy and would be absurdly innane in practice. Since REALITY isn’t dependent upon what the majority vote prefers, democracy ain’t got nothin’ to do with the scientific exploration of said reality.

    The “credentials” of a scientists don’t entitle that individual to any special knowledge, though it ideally should represent a level of training and expertise through which more detailed and nuanced understanding may be acheived. Bottom line, though I may be able to write “Ph.D.” after my name, it does not confer any claims I may make with a greater degree of accuracy: only the data can speak to its own veracity. The march of progress will trample those that cannot properly support their assertions. There’s nothing deomcratic about a meritocracy…

    Finally, I find it farcical that someone would clamor for a “democratic” ideal of science when it’s abundantly clear that a vote of all the “credentialed” scientists would clearly reject cooler’s anti-vax, germ and HIV denialism and 9/11-trutherism effluent.

  39. #39 Todd W.
    October 2, 2009

    @cooler

    Ah…I guess I should’ve been a little more explicit in my request. Do you have any scientific citations that back up your claim.

    The Poling case…uh huh. Yeah. She had a mitochondrial disorder that, in the eyes of the court, was made worse by the vaccines she received. Her case does not prove that vaccines cause autism.

    Now, if every person that had autism also had the same mitochondrial disorder and was also vaccinated, then there would be a possible connection. But, there are people with autism who do not have mitochondrial disorder. There are also people with autism that have never been vaccinated.

  40. #40 c0nc0rdance
    October 2, 2009

    I’m loath to self-promote on Orac’s turf, but I made a video on why science ISN’T democratic. It’s so in line with what Credentialed is saying, that clearly we both observe the same code.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqznURlEWI0

    @Cooler
    Discussing real science with denialists is exhausting. May I suggest that you go back to school, get an education, pick up a pipettor and produce some data? Because until then, what you are saying is just your opinion of historical events. You opinion is not terribly interesting or relevant in science.

    There’s an old saying about opinions I have found to be especially true of tinfoil-hat truthers. You may know it.

  41. #41 Credentialed
    October 2, 2009

    I’s not at all ironic that cooler demands “Can you please not spam a url, something that would get you laughed out of a high school class?” and then provides only youtube links to support his/her claims…not ironic one bit.

  42. #42 Militant Agnostic
    October 2, 2009

    c0nc0rdance, Credentialed & other relative newbies at R.I. – please be advised that Cooler is unable to use Occam’s Razor because have he is not allowed to have sharp objects.

    Arguing with him is significantly less productive than arguing with your dining room table.

  43. #43 Igor
    October 2, 2009

    Take it easy there. I do all of my major research on YouTube. Did you know that combining laser pointer with a furry cat has a 100% chance of hilariousness with 95% confidence interval?

  44. #44 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    Those you tube vids had more data than any of Fauci’s claims about lab workers.

    The difference between me posting a video on case studies and you guys spamming aidstruth is that I can put into my own words the data that made that video/investigation compelling, they were zapped and got horribly sick and autistic right after, one child got so sick in that video right after she was on a feeding tube for 3 years, got autism and swelled up like a watermelon right after vaccination!

    You guys spam aids truth without explaining any of the experiments that prove HIV’s role in a fatal disease, infact I’ll bet most of you who spam that cite haven’t read a single study from it.

    Anyways if science was truly democratic there should be one journal where anyone with a MD or PHD from a decent school should be able to publish in, the rest of people with advanced degrees in the relevant fields should be able to vote whether the hypothesis has any legs or not and explain why. That is what should determine policy.

    In today’s wacky world of science the crooked public health officials (Margeret Heckler, Fauci et al) the drug companies, and the editors of “top tier” journals(who’s real role is to parrot the CDC) have much greater power than your average credentialed university scientist, so this concentration of power into the hands of very few people is what is so dangerous.

    If science was truly democratic Anthony Fauci would have no more say than anyone else with equal credentials, but in today’s crazy undemocratic world of science, If Fauci says something is a scientific fact it is, he says its not a “fact” than its not. Straight out of Orwells’s 1984.

  45. #45 Todd W.
    October 2, 2009

    Anyways if science was truly democratic there should be one journal where anyone with a MD or PHD from a decent school should be able to publish in, the rest of people with advanced degrees in the relevant fields should be able to vote whether the hypothesis has any legs or not and explain why. That is what should determine policy.

    Heh. Such a journal already exists. It’s called Medical Hypotheses and is, shall we say, not what one would call a good source of scientific evidence.

  46. #46 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    What’s funny is you guys saying posting a you tube clip is anti-science when Orac based this whole blog post on a you tube clip!

  47. #47 Todd W.
    October 2, 2009

    Cooler, you clearly fail to see the distinction. I realize I’m probably just wasting my time, but here goes:

    The clips that Orac posted were an explanation of the difference between correlation and causation. They were not being used to support a scientific claim.

    You posted a clip in an attempt to support a scientific claim, yet the clip was not in any way scientific.

    I predict you will disagree with my explanation, but one can always hope that some measure of education will seep in.

  48. #48 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    Medical hypothesis is not a democratic journal, it gives favor to far out hypothesis and is not read by the vast majority of MD’s and Phd’s in the world.

    Again a truly democratic system would have the world MD’s and PHd’s voting on experiments and papers proposed by anybody with some sort of advanced degree in Biology, chemistry, stats, Mcb or a Medical Doctorate from a decent school.

    No concentration of power to drug companies, editors or Public health crooks to decide what is to be published, what gets television commercials or government sponsored press conferences.

  49. #49 Credentialed
    October 2, 2009

    Cooler, repeat after me: “Science is not democratic.”

    Science is not democratic.

    Science is not democratic.

    Science is not democratic.

  50. #50 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    @todd
    The point that you cant seem to learn is that you guys accept correlations where the cause and effect are separated by 10-30 years (hep c and HIV) and you Accept Fauci’s 3 unpublished anecdotal lab workers who got low t cells years later, so you must accept immediate causes and effects.

    So after watching the clip I posted one must accept an immediate cause and effect as seen in the video and in the Hannah poling case. If you guys so readily accept and believe cause and effects that are separated up to 30 years as is the case with hepatitis c and HIV, than an immediate cause and effect is even much more compelling.

  51. #51 JohnV
    October 2, 2009

    Guys guys guys omg I have proof of the most incredible thing ever. Talking food!!!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q3b4cfb4aM

  52. #52 Todd W.
    October 2, 2009

    @cooler

    I’m not addressing any of the other people here. I’m addressing you. So, where’s your scientific citation that thimerosal causes autism?

  53. #53 JohnV
    October 2, 2009

    Also, Orac, can we trade this cooler guy for he whose name shall not be spoken? His insanity is a lot more fun and less dreary than cooler’s.

  54. #54 Igor
    October 2, 2009

    “[...]one child got so sick in that video right after she was on a feeding tube for 3 years, got autism and swelled up like a watermelon right after vaccination!”

    All in that order.

  55. #55 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    @john v @militant agnostic
    Why are you guys such an unemployed old fart losers? Why is the only sex you’ll can get from your doggy?

    LATER I’m out of here, don’t have time to get name called by a bunch of crazy non thinking pathetic nerds who crawl around campus begging for sex they will never get.

    It is noted none of you could describe the experiments that proved HIV’s causal role that justified AZT’s release in 1987. Nor why immediate correlations don’t matter (Poling, the news clip I posted etc) but ones where up to three decades have passed do matter. (hep c, hiv)

    LATER KOOKBALLS!

  56. #56 Joseph
    October 2, 2009

    @cooler: Here, YouTube evidence that the water supply is being poisoned:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c6HsiixFS8

    What do you think?

  57. #57 James Sweet
    October 2, 2009

    don’t have time to get name called by a bunch of crazy non thinking pathetic nerds

    The hypocrisy, it burns!

  58. #58 Credentialed
    October 2, 2009

    @john v @militant agnostic

    Sorry guys, you just got pwned. I mean, those were devastating insults. cooler clearly wins this argument, so you might as well give in.

    Sorry…I was rooting for you, but, since you’re “KOOKBALLS”, game over. Game over.

  59. #59 JohnV
    October 2, 2009

    I am employed (posting this at work) and not old yet (at least 1 month til then, depending on the age cut off).

    So you are wrong on all counts, again. Seems like a problem you have, being wrong about everything and all :p

  60. #60 Chris
    October 2, 2009

    Trolls tend to go away if you ignore them.

  61. #61 Kelly
    October 2, 2009

    You probably won’t listen to what NIAID has to say, since somehow public health scientists are in the pockets of pharma.
    However, on NIAID’s webpage: The Evidence that HIV causes AIDS — the notion that medications are causing AIDS is addressed. Also note that there were clinical trials with control groups back before there were any effective treatments. To have a placebo group now is unethical. Instead research is done by comparing a new treatment against the standard treatment.
    Anyway:

    MYTH: AZT and other antiretroviral drugs, not HIV, cause AIDS.

    FACT: The vast majority of people with AIDS never received antiretroviral drugs, including those in developed countries prior to the licensure of AZT in 1987, and people in developing countries today where very few individuals have access to these medications (UNAIDS, 2000).

    As with medications for any serious diseases, antiretroviral drugs can have toxic side effects. However, there is no evidence that antiretroviral drugs cause the severe immunosuppression that typifies AIDS, and abundant evidence that antiretroviral therapy, when used according to established guidelines, can improve the length and quality of life of HIV-infected individuals.

    In the 1980s, clinical trials enrolling patients with AIDS found that AZT given as single-drug therapy conferred a modest (and short-lived) survival advantage compared to placebo. Among HIV-infected patients who had not yet developed AIDS, placebo-controlled trials found that AZT given as single-drug therapy delayed, for a year or two, the onset of AIDS-related illnesses. Significantly, long-term follow-up of these trials did not show a prolonged benefit of AZT, but also never indicated that the drug increased disease progression or mortality. The lack of excess AIDS cases and death in the AZT arms of these placebo-controlled trials effectively counters the argument that AZT causes AIDS (NIAID, 1995).

  62. #62 Natalie
    October 2, 2009

    Ah, but addressing the most obviously wrong of their points is good for non-scientists like me. Earlier in my life, I could have easily been cooler. In fact, stumbling across some post here several years ago and becoming a regular reader of both Orac’s posts and the comments has given me a much better understanding of critical thinking, scientific method, and how to apply those things to everyday life.

  63. #63 Credentialed
    October 2, 2009

    Natalie, thanks for commenting. While troll-hunting is sporty fun for some (and distateful for others), leaving nonsense un-countered is unpalatable for folks like me precisely because of the point you raise. When the light of day is shown upon the claims of the psuedoscientists and conspiracy theorists, I believe most people have the faculties to recognize how tenuous their evidence is and how vacuous their logic presents. This can only happen if we provide that light.

    Kelly has brought a nice Maglite to the show…

  64. #64 Natalie
    October 2, 2009

    Oops, with the intervening comment it’s hard to get the context of my post. I was replyin to Chris @ 59.

  65. #65 godlesschick
    October 2, 2009

    *sigh* Confusing correlation with causation? No… confusing youtube with scientific evidence. (not @ Orac but the kook) I think there are some brilliant things out on youtube these days, but make sure you can back it up (kinda like what the youtube links Orac posted do). Sheesh!

  66. #66 Chris
    October 2, 2009

    Perhaps, it would be better to just mention the science, but not address the troll specifically. This particular troll has had the points repeated to him often, and he tends to derail the comments to his favorite talking points. But he will not hang around very long if you actually ignore him.

  67. #67 AussieMarcus
    October 2, 2009

    You’ve gotta love cooler, though, Orac.

    Orac: Here are the hundreds of peer-reviewed studies demonstrating HIV causes AIDS. Where are your studies cooler?

    Cooler: I…who…me…wha….I don’t have time for this now….you all have sex with dogs, and..you’re all…..kookballs! Yeah, that’s it, KOOKballs! And DICKtors! haha, QED I win!

    People like him just makes your job so much easier. You should be thankful for him.

  68. #68 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    @kelly
    Yep, those crooked AZT trials where if you count blood transfusions as deaths (they would have died w/o them) more people died in the AZT arm. 90% of the AIDS deaths in the USA came after this great chemotherapy was approved. This crooked trial is the reason none of the new cocktails have been tested against placebo?

    Many prominent scientists have said the “AIDS” deaths are caused by AZT, severe Drug abuse in the gay fastrack bathhouse lifestyle, mycoplasmas and the same old diseases in Africa. The window period had to be extended from 10 months to 10 years to explain away all the healthy HIV infected patients. (Duesberg Inventing the AIDS virus)

    Of course you can shut them up by describing the Experiments you read that proved that it’s HIV only that is nearly 100% fatal, don’t spam a url, describe the data from the website you spam, Have you guys even read the scientific studies on AIDStruth? They are pretty laughable in proving anything.

  69. #69 Timelord
    October 2, 2009

    Cooler, you seem to love conspiracy theories. You’ve been challenged to provide scientific proof, and you’ve been suspiciously silent on that point. You prefer to try and sidetrack the discussion and at one point be a typical anti vaxxer and spew insults (see #54).

    On the videos, I’ve only watched the first one as I type this – but the way it puts correlation in perspective is brilliant and effective. The video creator has much more understanding of vaccines in the scientific sense than quacks like Rebecca Carley will ever have.

  70. #70 Marc
    October 2, 2009

    Wait a second–so parachute pants *don’t* suppress autism???

  71. #71 Prometheus
    October 2, 2009

    “Cooler” has yet to meet a conspiracy theory he didn’t like.

    Before anyone gets too involved trying to educate him, you ought to know that this person vigorously defended his assertion that “fire can’t melt steel”. This would have come as a huge surprise to Benjamin Huntsman, who developed a process for making cast steel (crucible steel) in the 1740′s (using fire as his source of heat).

    So, before you try to correct his eccentric ideas about HIV, vaccines, and life in general, remember that you’re not going to convince him of anything.

    Likewise, don’t expect Cooler to provide any citations or other legitimate support for his assertions – it hasn’t happened before and – frankly – can’t happen, since his assertions are nonsensical and unsupported.

    This has been a public service announcement from the Don’t Feed the Trolls Society. We now return you to your regularly scheduled ‘blog.

    Prometheus

  72. #72 Shirakawasuna
    October 2, 2009

    Cooler [citation needed].

  73. #73 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    Bozo the clown,
    I said normal office fires don’t melt steel, the official story involves no melting of steel, only weakening, troll.

    Since you guys bring up 9/11, why don’t you explain how the 47 core columns failed in the towers, give a sequential explanation how building 7 came straight down, explain how passports flew out of hijackers pockets at ground zero and shankesville while the plane nearly evaporated, explain why the Pentagon was hit when it has it was designed to repel the Russian Air force, let alone not to get hit by a single unarmed plane, show me a clear video of a the plane strike at the Pentagon, (there are cameras all around the Pentagon) also show me the CCTV, ticket stubs and witnesses who saw the Hijackers board the planes. Explain why Dick Cheney blocked an investigation for 3 years and only testified after intense pressure from the Jersey Girls in secret with no press or transcripts allowed.

    NO cctv videos were released until 3 years later, and then it was only 5/19 Hikjackers shown, which looked like any Random Muslims. Answer the questions since you guys know everything.

  74. #74 Robert S.
    October 2, 2009

    cooler@67: If you count eating as deaths (they would have died without food) then they all died. cooler is a zombie!!!Oh shi!!!

  75. #75 AussieMarcus
    October 2, 2009

    Just a word of advice, cooler,

    If you’re trying to convince us that HIV Denialism is a rational, logical, well-thought-out position…..engaging in 9/11 conspiracy theories is probably not the smartest way to go about it.

  76. #76 Phoenix Woman
    October 2, 2009

    Prometheus: Actually, Cooler has been the best unintentional science teacher ever for me. I’ve discovered that I can just killfile him and read the responses to him instead, and in the process get much info thereby.

    Wait a second–so parachute pants *don’t* suppress autism???

    Alas, no. But pirates just might.

  77. #77 cooler
    October 2, 2009

    @robert s
    Lol what a dumb analogy, AZT directly killed so many cells the patients in the AZT arm needed blood transfusions to survive, comparing this to intentionally starving yourself is so stupid.

    Duesberg brought this up when he debated the orthodoxy. If you count these toxic effects as deaths (as you should since they would have died without them) more people died in the AZT arm.

    Duesberg is a California Scientist of the year pimp, and he Humiliated the debate he had with AIDS experts in 1994. Of course you can the dissidents wrong if you can describe the experiments you read that prove HIV is a fatal disease, no need to spam a url, would get you flunked out of class.

    I give URL’s from time to time, but I can expalin their significance, cause I looked at the information, I’m almost postive that none of you have even read the “scientific studies” on aids truth. Pretty sure the hypothesis has been accepted by you’ll purely on faith.

    Duesberg at his finest, the one time the orthodoxy had the balls to debate.
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8226667729907633541#

  78. #78 Joseph C.
    October 2, 2009

    cooler,

    The problem with your 9/11 conspiracy theory is you didn’t bother to actual proffer one.

  79. #79 Cooler
    October 3, 2009

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2007/190607Moore.htm

    Awesome Micheal moore came out for 9/11 truth!

    Adds to the growing list of brilliant minds! Dave Mustaine the founder of Megadeth went public for 9/11 truth, “Speidi” the oversexed stud from MTV’s the Hills Spencer Pratt and gorgeous Heidi Montag went public on the Alex Jones Show, Charlie Sheen, Jessie Ventura, Roseanne Barr went public on Pacifica radio, Matt Bellamy from the mega popular band the Muse, Tom De Longe of Blink 182…….. the Best Actress winner Marion Cottilard god there are so many good looking studs and winners for 9/11 truth!

  80. #80 Chris
    October 3, 2009

    Wait, what? Lemon imports from Mexico don’t improve car safety?

    Would switching my citric requests to limes make a difference?

    Okay, I understand that I should not take medical advice from Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey. But is it okay to take it from actors who have played doctors, like George Clooney? He has got to be a reliable source since he is going to be in The Men Who Stare at Goats.

    Can y’all help poer me?

  81. #81 Bob
    October 3, 2009

    Switch to the thicker restaurant-grade tinfoil. Remember, shiny side out!

    This public service announcement is brought to you by K00KBALLZ, Inc., the makers of Pharma-Shill(tm). When all your arguments, anecdotes, and ad hominems have failed, Pharma-Shill(tm) is the one gambit that will never let you down. Ask your denialist about Pharma-Shill(tm) today!

  82. #82 Chris
    October 3, 2009

    Ah, poe, poe-r me!

  83. #83 Timelord
    October 4, 2009

    @Cooler – oh boy. Prison Planet? Conspiracy theory central right there! I’ll tear you apart right now….

    Since you guys bring up 9/11, why don’t you explain how the 47 core columns failed in the towers, give a sequential explanation how building 7 came straight down

    I’m no building engineer but Bin Ladin is, so he would have known how to do it. Or he would had the knowledge within Al Queda.

    explain how passports flew out of hijackers pockets at ground zero and shankesville while the plane nearly evaporated

    It’s called impact.

    explain why the Pentagon was hit when it has it was designed to repel the Russian Air force, let alone not to get hit by a single unarmed plane

    That’s the point! It was hit by a single unarmed plane because it was not designed to repel it! It was designed to repel a war plane, not a civilian one! Big difference!

    show me a clear video of a the plane strike at the Pentagon, (there are cameras all around the Pentagon)

    One was released.

    also show me the CCTV, ticket stubs and witnesses who saw the Hijackers board the planes.

    I’m not even going to bother addressing THAT piece of foolish paranoia!

    Explain why Dick Cheney blocked an investigation for 3 years and only testified after intense pressure from the Jersey Girls in secret with no press or transcripts allowed.

    Because the investigation was TOP SECRET!! Why report on the progress in public – where the terrorists can see it? Idiot!

    NO cctv videos were released until 3 years later, and then it was only 5/19 Hikjackers shown, which looked like any Random Muslims.

    Prove that they were random Muslims – otherwise STFU!!

    You wanted the answers. I’ve given them. Argue your way out of that one, dummy!

    (Apologies to Orac, but I couldn’t resist exposing this fool for what he is)

  84. #84 cooler
    October 4, 2009

    @timelord
    God you’re dumb, the 9/11 commission was not top secret, Condaleeza Rice and Richard Clarke testified under oath in public you fool. For some reason Bush and Cheney would only testify in secret with no recording allowed not under oath.

    Thanks for not explaining how the 47 core columns failed in the towers or giving a sequential explanation how building 7 came straight down.

    Yeah the passports and bandanas survived but the multi ton planes evaporated. Real impressive. idiot.

    Thanks for admitting they were no CCTV videos of the Hijackers for 3 years (why the delay?) and to this day only 5/19 appear on camera at the airports. Thanks for admitting there are no stubs or witnesses or videos or any evidence for that matter that the hijackers even boarded the planes.

    There is no clear video of a plane at the Pentagon ya loser, only an small unidentifiable white streak. There are several cameras around the Pentagon thats footage has never been released.

    Anyways we invaded 2 countries in 2001 and 2003 based on the fact that 19 hijackers boarded the planes and carried out 9/11, got any evidence of this? Yeah that is what I thought, there is barely any evidence the Hijackers were even at the airports, if a 7-11 was robbed they’d release the videos in days! What a joke!

  85. #85 cooler
    October 4, 2009

    explain why the Pentagon was hit when it has it was designed to repel the Russian Air force, let alone not to get hit by a single unarmed plane

    That’s the point! It was hit by a single unarmed plane because it was not designed to repel it! It was designed to repel a war plane, not a civilian one! Big difference!

    WOW this is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. The Pentagon has Radar and planes ready to defend it from a huge enemy airforce but It couldn’t stop an single unarmed plane that was easily seen on radar for hundreds of miles out, what a joke!

  86. #86 flim flam
    October 6, 2009

    Jeez, if such great minds as the guy from megadeth and those permatanned xtian goons from The Hills go for the truther schtick then count me in!. cuz scientists are all ugly and stuff and science is above all a popularity contest right cooler?. maybe instead of the scientific method ( soooooo boring) we could just have a Theory Idol tv show. Cooler, dawn, jones et al can just make shit up and then we all get to text in our votes. so much more democratic than all those elitist scientists thinking their years of study is better than me sitting on the net googling for a couple of hours.

  87. #87 cooler
    October 7, 2009

    Flim flam
    What evidence are you talking about? you can’t even describe experiments that proved HIV is a fatal disease that justified AZT’s release in 1987 or for any time for that matter without spamming a url, something that would flunk you out of a class, nor can cite any evidence that the hijackers even boarded the planes ya crazy OLD FART.

    My point was that there are some real winners that get lots of sex like Spencer Pratt and Charlie Sheen that have the evidence based truth, and pointing out their detractors have no evidence at all, I seriously doubt your idols like John Moore has got 1/1000000000 the sex King Spencer Pratt has gotten in his life.

  88. #88 Chris
    October 7, 2009

    Do not feed the troll.

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