Respectful Insolence

Dumbest comment ever?

Orac’s anti-stupidity circuits just took a serious beating. It’s kind of like Star Trek, when the Enterprise is being battered by multiple Klingon warships. After multiple phaser and photon torpedo hits, its shields are down to 10% and in danger of failing.

Orac is feeling sort of like that right now, except that it was a single massive photon torpedo of stupid that hit his logic circuits, courtesy of someone named Jeffrey, who commented:

Orac forgot to mention, in his attempt to character assassinate Dawn, to compensate for body weight compensation for, lets say a 6 lb baby.

A baby gets the same vaccine as a 180 lb man which means to compensate for the amount of sodium chloride injected into the baby, that man would need 30 equivalent vaccines.

This is just one vaccine! You make light of “table salt”, however it is no laughing matter Orac. How many vaccines does a child get in one day? Play with the numbers all you want.

Utter failure, Orac.

http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Sodium_chloride-9927593

Jeffry, by the way, listed his website as VacTruth, which, as you may recall, is the same website that published Dawn Crim’s stupendously ignorant anti-vaccine screed that I had so much fun “analyzing” the other day.

Clearly, “Jeffry” matches Dawn in intellectual firepower. That’s not a compliment. He even cites an MSDS sheet while demonstrating that he has zero understanding of human physiology, even though he thinks he understands dosages. But Orac is nothing if not benevolent, even though Jeffry nearly fried his anti-stupid shield circuits. Let’s put it this way. What’s the usual volume of a vaccine? It’s usually one milliliter (mL) or less. What is the usual IV fluid rate for a baby? Well, it’s based on weight. A usual quick and dirty rule of thumb for the maintenance infusion rate for IV fluid in children is:

4 mL/kg/hr for the first 10 kg +
2 mL/kg/hr for kilos 11-20 +
1 mL/kg/hr for every kilo over 20 kg

So, for a 6 lb baby (which would be a mighty tiny 6 month old, the youngest age for which the H1N1 flu vaccine, the topic of Dawn’s onslaught of neuronal apoptosing ignorance, is recommended), the recommended IV fluid rate would be

2.7 kg X 4 mL/kg/hr = 10.8 mL/hr

Assuming that vaccines have about the same concentration of electrolytes, such as NaCl, as D5LR (which they do, roughly), then it’s safe to give a 6 lb. infant nearly ten times as much NaCl every hour as what could conceivably be in a single vaccine. Actually, even if we use other electrolyte solutions, such as D51/2NS or D51/4NS, that would still be at least twice as much NaCl as could conceivably be in a vaccine each and every hour.

See, Jeffry, numbers are your friend–if you know what to do with them, which you clearly don’t.

The only response I can think of to someone like Jeffry, whose arrogance of ignorance is beyond belief is ridicule. He’s clearly too far gone to be educable.

Comments

  1. #1 BigHeathenMike
    October 8, 2009

    Man, they’re coming out of the woodwork of late, eh? Heyzeus….

  2. #2 chemgeek
    October 8, 2009

    Dear Jeffery,

    Please stop using our oxygen if you are just going to waste it.

    Thank you

  3. #3 SciencePundit
    October 8, 2009

    I’ve been wondering what the next Toxin In Vaccines would be; now I know. What’s next? Water?

  4. #4 Uncle Dave
    October 8, 2009

    Dawn also wrote;
    “A word of caution to parents is warranted here: several vaccine manufacturers list crying or high-pitched screaming for greater than 3 hours as a sign of a serious vaccine reaction. Though this same warning is not applicable to any one of these H1N1 vaccines, it is still a situation that a parent should be alert to. If your child is crying or screaming for a long period of time,……”

    Open the car door, they have likely got their finger caught in it, while you were talking on the cell phone to your friend who is telling you you should not have vaccinated your kid!!!!!

  5. #5 PalMD
    October 8, 2009

    brilliant.

  6. #6 Susannah
    October 8, 2009

    #SciencePundit;

    What’s next? Water?

    Of course not! That would be just stupid!

    But they may object to DHMO.

    (Maybe someone can drop a hint where it will do most good.)

  7. #7 Mark F.
    October 8, 2009

    Anybody else getting real tired of seeing the word “Fail” or some variation of it in comments and posts? I know I am.

  8. #8 Orac
    October 8, 2009

    Hey, wait a minute, I sometimes use FAIL or EPIC FAIL in my posts…

  9. #9 Whitecoat Tales
    October 8, 2009

    I just want to point out, I have an incredibly high anti-vac gibberish threshold over at my blog. Jeffry was the first (and so far only) person to get the full-out ban.

    He is truely a firestorm of burning ignorance.

  10. #10 Orac
    October 8, 2009

    His ignorance is so over-the-top that he amuses me.

    For now.

  11. #11 MartinDH
    October 8, 2009

    Orac:

    Some good news in the battle against woo-mongers:
    Doctor who hailed herbal cancer cure arrested


    Martin

  12. #12 studio34
    October 8, 2009

    Dear Jeffrey,

    How does it feel to be more stupid than a bag of hammers? Dummer than a box of rocks?

  13. #13 Berner
    October 8, 2009

    BUT ORAC!? DIDN’T YOU KNOW THAT THERE IS CHLORINE IN NACL!!!!! CHLORINE IS POISON!!!!!!!!!

    http://www.vngas.com/pdf/g23.pdf

    I feel dirty now. I better go take a shower.

  14. #14 Mark F.
    October 8, 2009

    I definitely wasn’t directing my comment at you Orac. I see it in so many blog posts and comments all over the blogosphere. It’s just something that’s been kind of bugging me over the last month or so. Jeffery’s idiotic comment just reminded me of it.

  15. #15 Todd
    October 8, 2009

    Table salt is no laughing matter, people.

  16. #16 titmouse
    October 8, 2009

    BUT ORAC, DAT SODIUM HAZ NEUTRONS IN IT, AS IN “NEUTRON” BOMZ!!!11!!

  17. #17 DLC
    October 9, 2009

    @Studio34 : It’s “sharp as a box of rocks” where I come from.

    Wow.. a 6 lb baby . . . I was considered a small one and as a newborn was at 7 1/4 lbs.

  18. #18 Chris
    October 9, 2009

    Actually, I am waiting for Jeffry to come back and tell me I should not have allowed my son to get IV fluids, and just accept the expected outcome: death.

  19. #19 crankynick
    October 9, 2009

    Has anyone noticed the scumbags at Natural News have launched legal action to prevent anyone having a swine flu vac?

    http://www.naturalnews.com/027205_vaccines_swine_flu_the_FDA.html

    It’s bad enough they get to peddle their lies, but taking legal action to prevent those of us who prefer to rely on actual science from receiving vaccinations? Pure scumbaggery.

  20. #20 Azkyroth
    October 9, 2009

    According to the advice nurse, my 5 year old daughter came down with swine flu on Monday, was miserable Monday and pretty much smashed flat by it Tuesday, less miserable Wednesday, and her fever was pretty much gone today even though she was still congested. I wish I could borrow her immune system for a day or two. I’m actually too sick to kick the shit out of the next lying asshole who tries to talk people out of vaccinating their kids no matter how much adrenaline I might build up. :(

  21. #21 superdave
    October 9, 2009

    Just like trying to get lousy studies in lousy journals, using the MSDS to prove a point is just part of a trend to try to use legit science in ways it is not meant to be used for the sake of fear mongering. They will do anything but actually cracking open a textbook though.

  22. #22 Militant Agnostic
    October 9, 2009

    BUT ORAC, DAT SODIUM HAZ NEUTRONS IN IT, AS IN “NEUTRON” BOMZ!!!11!!

    Hah – Potassium emits GAMMA RAYS. About 0.0117% of potassium is radioactive K40. In oil & gas wells the gamma rays emitted by potassium in shale are used to distinguish between impermeable shale and potentially productive layers of sandstone or limestone/dolomite.

    Vaccines will make you glow in the dark!!!!!

  23. #24 You Know Who
    October 9, 2009

    “Assuming that vaccines have about the same concentration of electrolytes, such as NaCl, as D5LR (which they do, roughly), then it’s safe to give a 6 lb. infant nearly ten times as much NaCl every hour as what could conceivably be in a single vaccine.”

    Oh really? Are you sure? By what route would this be safe Mr. Bill Nye, the science guy? Does route matter? Oral or injection? Do uptake and kinetics matter?

  24. #25 hyperdeath
    October 9, 2009

    Oh really? Are you sure? By what route would this be safe Mr. Bill Nye, the science guy? Does route matter? Oral or injection? Do uptake and kinetics matter?

    D5LR is given intravenously, you truther moron.

  25. #26 Neuroskeptic
    October 9, 2009

    Did someone drop a box of vaccines on your head at birth or something Jeff?

    “A usual quick and dirty rule of thumb for the maintenance infusion rate for IV fluid in children is… the recommended IV fluid rate would be…”

    Let me guess, is the answer… IV?

  26. #27 Richard Eis
    October 9, 2009

    -Oh really? Are you sure? By what route would this be safe Mr. Bill Nye, the science guy? Does route matter? Oral or injection? Do uptake and kinetics matter?-

    Congratulations. After Jeffry only just failed to snatch the idiocy award from Dawn’s grasping little paws, you just waltzed right in there and took it with such breathtaking, arrogant stupidity that I must commend you on still being able to breath and think at the same time. Though I use the term “think” rather loosely in this context.

  27. #28 micheleinmichigan
    October 9, 2009

    I’m sorry if one of my kids is crying or high pitched screaming for three hours I’m taking them to the DR or ER regardless of if they had a vaccine or not. WTF

  28. #29 Landru
    October 9, 2009

    I think we’re missing the point by focusing on the idiocy of the route comment. The real issue here is:

    Why is Voldemort posting comments on this blog?

  29. #30 IanW
    October 9, 2009

    We’re not at overtly war with the Klingons, Orac. I can’t believe you’re so behind the times….

  30. #31 Kierra
    October 9, 2009

    Isn’t the important point that the electrolytes are in the vaccines (and IV fluids) in the same concentrations as in blood plasma? The whole point is to not alter the concentration of these electrolytes in the blood not matter how much vaccine (or IV fluid) you receive.

  31. #32 nacky
    October 9, 2009

    I’m confused, 454g/lb x 6 lb = 2.72kg. Even more electrolytes! ca. 12% more. Of course if the average weight of a 6 month old baby is used (mentioned above as the earliest vaccination age for this flu) then it’s electrolyte heaven.

  32. #33 superdave
    October 9, 2009

    took exactly 2 days for the age of autism to refer to the monkey study. JB Handley wrote

    “1) A recent study published in the journal Neurotoxicology called “Delayed Acquisition of Neonatal Reflexes in Newborn Primates Receiving a Thimerosal-containing Hepatitis B Vaccine: Influence of Gestational Age and Birth Weight” found that monkeys who received a Hepatitis B vaccine on the first day of life experienced a significant delay in survival reflexes versus monkeys who received a placebo. ”

    Basically this totally abuses the everyday usage of the word significant with the statistical usage.

  33. #34 Orac
    October 9, 2009

    Brain fart. Actually, fat fingers hitting the “5″ instead of “2″ (i.e, 2.5 lb/kg instead of 2.2 lb/kg) on the keyboard and brain not noticing that the resultant number was slightly too small. it’s fixed now.

  34. #35 Katharine
    October 9, 2009

    I posted this on White Coat Underground, but it merits reposting here:

    Table salt.

    TABLE SALT.

  35. #36 trrll
    October 9, 2009

    Oh really? Are you sure? By what route would this be safe Mr. Bill Nye, the science guy? Does route matter? Oral or injection? Do uptake and kinetics matter?

    This is like asking, which will making the ocean saltier, dropping a tablespoon of salt into the ocean in Massachusetts or in California? To a first approximation, the body is a bag of salt water. Salt is everywhere. In the blood, in the cells, in the fluid between the cells. A tiny bit of salt (and you can’t dissolve more than a tiny bit of salt into the volume of a vaccine) added anywhere, by any route, will make no difference.

    This certainly illustrates just how clueless these antivax guys are. You’d think that if somebody cared about medicine and health so passionately, they’d invest the little bit of effort needed to learn the basics of physiology and biological chemistry. But noooooo…

  36. #37 MI Dawn
    October 9, 2009

    And more horrifying, working as a nurse, I’ve given HUGE IV fluid doses to even smaller (1 1/2-2 lb babies). Right into their veins! 10 cc’s at a time, even. And the fluid has glucose! and sodium chloride! and potassium! (and even other things). And I’ve given other horrible things like ampicillin and gentamycin in HUGE amounts, not like those lousy amounts in vaccines, to the same tiny frail babies. And I’ve given them sugar water, too. AND, I’ve given them shots with pointy needles like Vitamen K and Hepatitis B! Oh, the horror! (/end snark)

    Strange thing – few of those babies that I’ve seen grow up are autistic. They might have other problems due to prematurity, but autism seems to be right in usual frequency. One would think that these premies would be a lot more at risk for autism if the sodium chloride, potassium, gentamycin, Hepatitis B shot caused it, since their immune systems and nervous systems are less developed than a term baby. Gee…Dawn and Jeffry couldn’t be wrong, could they? After all, they read the MSDS!

  37. #38 Science Mom
    October 9, 2009

    Oh Dawn is a winna. She banned me from commenting on her blog when I backed her into a corner. That is not something to brag about given her intellectual prowess. I just wanted to point out that she, like so many other echo-chamber dwellers, go into a fit of apoplexy when challenged in any way.

  38. #39 Mandrake
    October 9, 2009

    I posted this on White Coat Underground, but it merits reposting here:

    Table salt.

    TABLE SALT.

    Ah ha! So we now know that vaccines cause autism *and* hypertension!

  39. #40 Enkidu
    October 9, 2009

    #37:
    My daughter was born 13 weeks premature, weighing 2 lbs, 1 oz. Thank goodness for IV fluids; she didn’t take her first “feeding” (a whole cc of milk!) for several days. :o)

    Oh, and my teeny tiny baby was born with a raging strep infection. So she got (evil) drugs administered to her ASAP by (evil) doctors who had preformed a (unholy, unnatural) c-section to save her life. All I can say is: GO SCIENCE.

  40. #41 Karl Withakay
    October 9, 2009

    “Doctor who hailed herbal cancer cure arrested”

    Doctor Who was arrested?

    Doctor Who hails herbal cancer cures?

  41. #42 military wife
    October 9, 2009

    Aren’t pediatric vaccines half the size of adult vaccines anyway? When the kids and I went to the health department in LasVegas their shots were 0.5 ml and mine were 1.0 ml. I was kinda insulted since my kids weigh more than me now. Perhaps it was just the particular shots we got…

  42. #43 Kemist
    October 9, 2009

    Wow.. a 6 lb baby . . . I was considered a small one and as a newborn was at 7 1/4 lbs.

    Yeah, here average birth weight is around 8 pounds. But among my friends, most of which are indian and one is romanian, and generally smaller-boned than I am, a 5-pound baby (born at term) is quite normal.

    But I would think a 6-pound 6-month old would be either dangerously malnourished or very, very sick. My sister’s five-month old (who has recently received her second scheduled vaccine) weights 18 pounds.

  43. #44 Kemist
    October 9, 2009

    I wish I could borrow her immune system for a day or two.

    From what I’ve read, some influenza viruses have more severe symptoms among the healthy adult population than among the young and elderly because of their stronger immune reaction – the immune system actually does most of the damage.

    If the swine flu is similar to the 1918 deadly strain, I wouldn’t want to boost my immune reaction, but tone it down, so that it doesn’t end up destroying my lungs.

    That a lot of damages and symptoms in infections are more due to our immune reaction than to the virus/bacteria itself is actually true for many infections. I’m just getting out of a viral bronchitis, and I’m coughing up my lungs and wheezing since two weeks, with not a trace of the infection left – just because I have my asthma means that it takes longer for the inflammation to subsisde.

    So your daughter got less sick because her immune system didn’t wreak so much havoc as yours did.

  44. #45 MI Dawn
    October 9, 2009

    @Enkidu: so, are you giving her lots of chelation, stem cells, RNA drops, shark oil, etc to SAVE her from all that evil therapy ;-)

    Yeah, thank goodness for evil medicine. My best friend gave birth to twins at 26 weeks. One died, unfortunately (victim of twin-to-twin transfusion) but the other is 19 years old, doing great except for some still residual physical issues from brain bleeds.

    GO SCIENCE seconded. (and I hope your daughter is doing well).

  45. #46 Enkidu
    October 9, 2009

    @MI Dawn: nope, in fact she had RSV antibody shots last winter (once a month, the HORROR) and has been vaxed against the flu. She is 20 months old, 21 lbs and doing great. She has been evaluated by early intervention services and the only thing she’s behind in is speech… she babbles up a storm but is resisting saying “real” words. Stinker!

    Glad to hear your friend’s 26 weeker is doing well (but sorry about her loss… what a mix of emotions that must be to have a survivor and also a child that didn’t make it).

  46. #47 mayhempix
    October 9, 2009

    Poor Jeff. I’m sure he will sink deeper into the numb comforts of his ignorance while the rest of the anti-vaxxers praise his stupidity as heroic bravery in the face of the murderous onslaught of evil science and mathematics.

  47. #48 Pablo
    October 9, 2009

    Oh really? Are you sure? By what route would this be safe Mr. Bill Nye, the science guy

    I’m trying to understand here the use of “Bill Nye, the science guy” as a perjorative?

    If it is meant to imply that Orac the scientist is missing something blatently obvious, that issue was laid to rest in the initial post. Orac discussed dosing by weight, and brought up the IV, so I think he understands the issues of size and method of delivery.

    BTW, in terms of average baby size, if you hang out with new parents a lot (like I do) you hear lots of stories of “our OB estimated the size to be X” which was either right on or way off. I figure that, for any full term baby, you just say “7.5 lbs, plus or minus a pound” and you are going to cover most of them. There are exceptions at both ends, but that pretty much covers it.

    Our son was 3 weeks early and was 6 lbs 2 oz. Had he gone full term, he probably would have been about 7.5 lbs (normal growth at that stage is about .5 lbs/week)

  48. #49 MikeMa
    October 9, 2009

    Many of you are discussing child weight an dosing issues with admirable scientific fervor. This is moot for anyone like Dawn or Jeffry who clearly cannot add or multiply.

  49. #50 Pablo
    October 9, 2009

    Many of you are discussing child weight an dosing issues with admirable scientific fervor. This is moot for anyone like Dawn or Jeffry who clearly cannot add or multiply.

    They do, however, deserve credit for being able to properly describe the size relationship between infants and adults. Then again, “larger” and “smaller” are concepts that are emphasized on Sesame Street.

    (great Frank Calliendo routine: “What if the Muppets were out of a job?” and Grover is applying for a new position. “It says you are an expert in spatial relationships?” “That is correct.” “Can you give an example?” “Sure. Near … (footsteps)…far.” Then he does the same with Yoda, “Near to you I am, hmmm?”…..heavy wheezing and footsteps…”Farther from you I am now”)

  50. #51 Ramel
    October 9, 2009

    Many of you are discussing child weight an dosing issues with admirable scientific fervor. This is moot for anyone like Dawn or Jeffry who clearly cannot add or multiply.

    True, but its still interesting for those of us who can and sometimes thats all we need.

  51. #52 Sid Offit
    October 9, 2009

    As long as were on the topic of IVs and “toxins” maybe someone can help me with this.

    Engerix-B contains 0.25 mg aluminum as aluminum hydroxide or 250mcg. Dr Sears, the anti-vaccine zealot, in the Anti-Vaccine Book page 199 states:

    FDA recommends that premature babies…receive no more than 10 to 25 mcg of injected aluminum at any one time

    Yet premature babies get the same vaccines as everyone else. What am I missing?

  52. #53 mayhempix
    October 9, 2009

    I’ve met Bill Nye the Science Guy. Far from being a pejorative, it is a compliment I would proudly acknowledge.

    “You Know Who” is obviously full of “You Know What”.

  53. #54 Scott
    October 9, 2009

    Got cites from anything other than a book by a clueless moron?

    Didn’t think so.

  54. #55 Enkidu
    October 9, 2009

    @Sid Offit

    When the FDA is talking about premature babies, do they mean newborns?

    My daughter was pretty much on-schedule with her vaccines, with the exception of the HepB shot. She was given it as she left the hosptial, as most newborns are, but that was on her 2 month birthday when she was 5 lbs.

  55. #56 Pablo
    October 9, 2009

    FDA recommends that premature babies…receive no more than 10 to 25 mcg of injected aluminum at any one time

    I have to wonder, what’s in the …?

    Personally, I would like to see what the actual FDA guideline says, and not just Uncle Bob Sears’s rendition of it.

  56. #57 Sid Offit
    October 9, 2009

    @Pablo

    So would I. He doesn’t give a specific footnote.

  57. #58 Pablo
    October 9, 2009

    So would I. He doesn’t give a specific footnote.

    OK, so the question is either Engerix-B vaccine violates FDA regulations, or Bob Sears is making shit up.

    You can buy into the government conspiracy theory like Sid here, or conclude that maybe Bob Sears is an anti-vax nut trying to sell books.

    You make the call of what you are going to believe, but I just wanted to make the situation clear and the implications of either position.

  58. #59 vickie
    October 9, 2009

    Hey Sid,
    21CFR610(a)(1) allows for up to .85mg per dose in a vaccine:
    http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/pdf/21cfr610.15.pdf

    The limits mentioned in Sears’ writings may have come from this daily limit for parenterals:
    http://pen.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/32/3/242

    So basically for an infant on long-term parenterals you would have to account for the aluminum in the vaccine with that in the parenerals to ensure you do not give too much overall.

  59. #60 Sid Offit
    October 9, 2009

    When did I bring up a government conspiracy? Anyway until I see an actual reference I’ll agree that Sears is making it up.

  60. #61 Pablo
    October 9, 2009

    When did I bring up a government conspiracy?

    Your implication that the vaccine is being used in violation of the FDA guidelines (and mindlessly reiterating Sears certainly implied that you agreed with it) requires either that the FDA is unaware, or is complicit in allowing it to happen. Assuming that such an obvious fact would not be unnoticed by the FDA (jeez, it’s in Bob’s book, so it’s pretty widely known!), I concluded that it would have to mean that the FDA is allowing it to happen. So the government is consipiring with vaccine manufacturers to allow vaccines that violate FDA policies.

    That is what would be required if Sears’ claim were actually true.

    However, thanks to Vicki for actually showing that, yes, it is actually the case that Bob is misrepresenting the FDA guidelines.

  61. #62 Science Mom
    October 9, 2009

    Engerix-B contains 0.25 mg aluminum as aluminum hydroxide or 250mcg. Dr Sears, the anti-vaccine zealot, in the Anti-Vaccine Book page 199 states:

    FDA recommends that premature babies…receive no more than 10 to 25 mcg of injected aluminum at any one time

    Yet premature babies get the same vaccines as everyone else. What am I missing?

    @Sid, That is IV infusion of parenteral solutions. Dr. Sears has a bad habit of being unable and/or unwilling to parse the literature correctly. He also uses a plethora of irrelevant and/or misused studies in his book to support his anti-aluminum agenda. Now cue his droning sycophants.

  62. #63 Joseph
    October 9, 2009

    The misinformation Sid posted has origin (after some apparent evolution) in an article by Dr. Sears titled “Is Aluminum The New Thimerosal?” It’s posted in many anti-vax sites. The first Google hit is whale.to. Key quote:

    The first document I came across discusses the labeling of aluminum content in injected dextrose solutions (the sugar solutions added to intravenous fluids in hospitals): “Aluminum may reach toxic levels with prolonged parenteral administration [i.e., injected into the body] if kidney function is impaired. Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates [i.e., babies], who received parenteral levels of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day, accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity. Tissue loading [i.e., toxic buildup in certain body tissues] may occur at even lower rates of administration.”1 For a tiny newborn, this toxic dose would be 10 to 20 mcg; for an adult, it would be about 350 mcg.

    Then he explains:

    The source of the daily limit of 4 to 5 mcg of aluminum per kilogram of body weight quoted by the ASPEN statement seems to be a study that compared the neurologic development of about 100 premature babies who were fed a standard IV solution that contained aluminum, with the development of 100 premature babies who were fed the same solution with almost all aluminum filtered out … Those who got aluminum received an average of 500 mcg of the metal over a period of 10 days, or about 50 mcg per day. The other group received only about 10 mcg of aluminum daily—4 to 5 mcg per kilogram of body weight per day.

  63. #64 Sid Offit
    October 9, 2009

    @Pablo

    And the government knew how much mercury was in the old vaccine schedual as well, right

  64. #65 Pablo
    October 9, 2009

    And the government knew how much mercury was in the old vaccine schedual as well, right

    I don’t know. Did the FDA have guidelines about it and were they being violated by the vaccines?

  65. #66 Sid Offit
    October 9, 2009

    So the consensus is that the limit is .25mcg for IV aluminium and that due to the differences inherent with intramuscular injection 10x that amount is fine.

  66. #67 Robin Levett
    October 9, 2009

    @Sid Offit #63:

    And the government knew how much mercury was in the old vaccine schedual as well, right

    I suspect there was very little, if any.

  67. #68 Sid Offit
    October 9, 2009

    This is old news but speaks to my assertion that the government was unaware regarding overall mercury contained in vaccines

    As part of the FDAMA review, FDA evaluated the amount of mercury an infant might receive in the form of ethylmercury from vaccines under the U.S. recommended childhood immunization schedule and compared these levels with existing guidelines for exposure to methylmercury, as there are no existing guidelines for ethylmercury. At the time of this review in 1999, the maximum cumulative exposure to mercury from vaccines in the recommended childhood immunization schedule was within acceptable limits for the methylmercury exposure guidelines set by FDA, Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR), and the World Health Organization (WHO). However, depending on the vaccine formulations used and the weight of the infant, some infants could have been exposed to cumulative levels of mercury during the first six months of life that exceeded EPA recommended guidelines for safe intake of methylmercury. As a precautionary measure, the Public Health Service (including FDA, National Institutes of Health [NIH], Centers for Disease Control and Prevention [CDC] and Health Resources and Services Administration [HRSA]) and the American Academy of Pediatrics issued a Joint Statement, urging vaccine manufacturers to reduce or eliminate thimerosal in vaccines as soon as possible.

  68. #69 Pablo
    October 9, 2009

    10x that amount is fine.

    False comparison. The aluminum limit in vaccines is unrelated to that of the parenteral treatment. It’s like comparing how much alcohol is safe to drink knowing how much is safe for IV injection. There’s no way to determine that.

    So, yes, it could be 10x. Easily.

  69. #70 Jim Bob Cooter
    October 9, 2009

    I HAVE NEW EVIDENCE THAT VACCINES ARE DEADLY. 100% OF PEOPLE WHO GET A VACCINE DIE EVENTUALLY. YOU CAN LOOK IT UP ON INTERNETZ. THIS MAKES ME THE SMARTEST GUY. Also I have Hepatitis.

  70. #71 Pablo
    October 9, 2009

    there are no existing guidelines for ethylmercury

    good gravy, sid, try to keep up with your own friggin claims.

    Remember Dr Bob’s assertion: the amount of aluminum in vaccines exceeds FDA regulations, and it is known that the CDC schedule does this (I mean, Bob is pointing it out, so it’s not like a secret)

    Now, what the hell does this have to do with mercury, which, you admit, a) was not regulated, and b) it was not known if the amount given was more than safe levels, and c) when it was regulated was actually recommended (and done) to reduce the level.

    It’s pure poisoning the well. Actually, it’s more like, “throwing any shit against the wall and hoping something sticks”

  71. #72 Robin Levett
    October 9, 2009

    @Sid Offit #67:

    So it looks like I was right – there was no mercury in the vaccination schedule.

  72. #73 sanju
    October 9, 2009

    I think we’re missing the point by focusing on the idiocy of the route comment. The real issue here is:

    Why is Voldemort posting comments on this blog?

  73. #74 JohnV
    October 9, 2009

    @pablo

    It’s like playing wack-a-mole. We start with sodium chloride, deal with that, aluminum pops up, deal with that, and ethyl mercury pops up. No doubt we’re gonna get antifreeze, fetuses and squalene in short order before sodium chloride pops up again.

  74. #75 Ramel
    October 9, 2009

    Spambot detected in post #73. They’re plagarising comments now (#29 if you care), does their evil know no bounds?

  75. #76 MI Dawn
    October 9, 2009

    I’ll probably regret addressing this to Sid Offit, because I will be leaving home shortly and won’t be able to respond. However….
    Sid: IV infusions go DIRECTLY into the blood. They tend to be a continual dosage and run for days if not longer (depending on the reason for the IV and the age of the sick person). A neonate in a NICU might have an IV for 80+ days. If they are receiving IVs that long, they might have an accumulation of aluminum. However…vaccines are given in the MUSCLE in a baby (not enough subcutaneous fat in most babies to use that route). Absorption from the muscle is much slower than an IV route. It MAY be possible for a baby on IV fluids to have a high level of aluminum exacerbated by a vaccine. However, unless a child has kidney problems, aluminum is readily excreted by the kidneys into the urine and toxic levels do not accumulate.

    So, if you are giving a vaccine to a child with normal kidney excretion who is not on long term IV fluids, then you will be fine. It would only be an issue in a child with certain health problems. I assume the doctors caring for the child would be aware of the issues and give vaccines with the appropriate monitoring.

  76. #77 Joseph
    October 9, 2009

    BTW, for anyone bored or interested, the full text of the paper Dr. Sears makes reference too is available online. Interestingly, there was no statistically significant difference in the development of babies who got the aluminum IV for less than 10 days. Hence the word “prolonged.”

    Essentially, a premature baby should not get an IV solution with 45 mcg/kg/day of aluminum for 10 days or more. Bad idea to do this.

  77. #78 Science Mom
    October 9, 2009

    So the consensus is that the limit is .25mcg for IV aluminium and that due to the differences inherent with intramuscular injection 10x that amount is fine.

    Sid, please try and keep up with your own canards. There are differences in route administration, dose, toxic threshhold and aluminum species. If you are going to get your knickers in a perma-wedge about something, could you at least get some facts straight?

  78. #79 Sid Offit
    October 9, 2009

    @MI Dawn

    Thanks, but I do know the difference between an IV and a vaccine. My initial question was regarding a statement by Dr. Sears who mentioned nothing about IVs, only injections

    ————————————–

    @Science Mom
    Sid, please try and keep up with your own canards.

    So the consensus is that the limit is .25mcg for IV aluminium and that due to the differences inherent with intramuscular injection 10x that amount is fine.

    This statement was simply a summary of what the group was saying. I think your reading into it unintended sarcasm
    ————-

    There are differences in route administration…

    I’ll remember that when I hear mercury and aluminum are safe based on their presence in breast milk, antacids(Al) and fish (mercury)

    ————
    If you are going to get your knickers in a perma-wedge about something, could you at least get some facts straight?

    Not my facts, Dr. Sears’ and my knickers aren’t in a wedge

  79. #80 Richard Smith
    October 9, 2009

    Many of you are discussing child weight an dosing issues with admirable scientific fervor. This is moot for anyone like Dawn or Jeffry who clearly cannot add or multiply.

    They may not be able to add, but considering how often new antivaxxers seem to spring up, they have no difficulty in multiplying.

  80. #81 Clay
    October 9, 2009

    Sid,

    So the consensus is that the limit is .25mcg for IV aluminium and that due to the differences inherent with intramuscular injection 10x that amount is fine.

    First off, your original quote said 25 mcg, NOT 0.25 mcg. Secondly, it’s 25 mcg/L. So the recommendation isn’t for a single dose, rather, it’s for a unit of time (adjusted for body weight). For long term exposure, yes, it makes sense to have stricter guidelines than for single doses. It’s all due to how our bodies handle things like Al; we’re constantly getting environmental exposure, and we’re constantly excreting it. As long as the input doesn’t exceed the output, then there’s no problem. If you add Al when the net output is positive, then it’s going to be eliminated, it’s just a matter of time. If you add Al over time at a greater rate than the net output, that’s when you run into trouble.

  81. #82 jackrabbit
    October 9, 2009

    Anyone available to bring one of them there evil bags of IV poison over to my house? I fear I have ingested a little too much ETOH in an effort to drown out the…well, you know, Jeffry stuff. No? Oh well, I suppose I’ll try homeopathic suicide instead. I should be well hydrated by the time I go to bed.

  82. #83 ESPNess
    October 9, 2009

    @30

    ORAC is correct.

    In the new Star Trek Online timeline, Klingons and the Starfleet are opposing factions. I’m not sure what race the anti-vaxers would be, Borg maybe?

  83. #84 Zetetic
    October 9, 2009

    In the new Star Trek Online timeline, Klingons and the Starfleet are opposing factions. I’m not sure what race the anti-vaxers would be, Borg maybe?

    Hmmm….I’m thinking more like plague carrying Tribbles.
    ;-)

  84. #85 Do'C
    October 9, 2009

    “However, depending on the vaccine formulations used and the weight of the infant, some infants could have been exposed to cumulative levels of mercury during the first six months of life that exceeded EPA recommended guidelines for safe intake of methylmercury.”

    Oh Sid, that sounds potentially concerning, it is from the “government” and all… if you don’t look too deep.

    Methylmercury guidelines bear little to no relevance to ethylmercury (see Burbacher et al., 2005) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16079072

    Aw heck, let’s just quote it right here:

    “The results indicate that MeHg is not a suitable reference for risk assessment from exposure to thimerosal-derived Hg.”

    Thimerosal in vaccines pre 1999 exceeding an EPA reference dose for methylmercury in fish consumption is meaningless!

    “EPA’s basis for regulating levels of methylmercury in fish is the reference dose – or RfD. The RfD is used as the standard for developing seafood consumption advice in the United States. Defined as an estimate of the highest daily dose of a chemical that the most sensitive in the population can be exposed to over a lifetime of exposure without experiencing an adverse effect, the reference dose for mercury in fish is 0.1 microgram per kilogram of body weight (bw) per day (µg/ kg-day) or 0.7 µg/kg bw/week. This regulatory standard was based on calculating the lowest dose at which a subtle subclinical effect was thought to occur (meaning the effect was not actually observed) and then building in a ten-fold safety factor.”

    http://agresearch.umd.edu/cfna…..g_dose.htm

    Let’s do a little math, shall we?

    Suppose we have a 10kg toddler who never ages, and stays at 10kg his entire life. Let’s also suppose that he is the most sensitive in the population. This means that with the ten-fold safety factor, it is expected that our toddler can safely (without adverse effect being observed) ingest 1 microgram daily every single day of his life. without the ten-fold safety factor, the number would be 10 micrograms daily every single day of his life. If that toddler lives to be 75, the reference dose is 27,375 micrograms over the lifetime (with the ten-fold safety factor), and 273,750 micrograms over the lifetime (without)

    If you understand the relatively rapid clearance of ethylmercury compared to methylmercury, you’ll quickly see how silly this vaccine dose to EPA reference dose is. If you don’t, you’ll continue to think 200 micrograms back in 1999 is significant (or even scary). In reality, 200 micrograms ethylmercury is more likely insignificant.

  85. #86 Sid Offit
    October 9, 2009

    @ESPNess

    I’m not sure what race the anti-vaxers would be, Borg maybe?
    ———————–

    Thanks for your question. The correct answer, as to the race of the anti-vaxxers, is…..the Organians. The advanced race that would not let Star Fleet and the Klingons engage in a galactic war. The pro-vaccine faction is of course represented by the reptilian Gorn.

  86. #87 trrll
    October 9, 2009

    So the consensus is that the limit is .25mcg for IV aluminium and that due to the differences inherent with intramuscular injection 10x that amount is fine.

    It is not so much the difference in route as the difference in timing–an acute injection compared to long-term exposure. It is true of many compounds, including many aluminum and ethyl mercury, that most of the compound is eliminated from the body very rapidly, but there can be a “compartment” (i.e. a tissue) from which it is eliminated slowly. Fortunately, with slow elimination comes slow absorption. That means that with single doses, or widely spaced doses, the compound is eliminated so rapidly that essentially none of it has time to get into that slow compartment. But give a compound chronically–by continuous infusion, for example, or ongoing dietary exposure–and the picture changes. Now the toxic compound has time to enter the slow compartment, where it can gradually build up to toxic levels. This is one reason it was never very plausible that the small amounts of mercury or aluminum that are present in only a few vaccines could do any kind of long-term damage.

  87. #88 Sid Offit
    October 9, 2009

    @trrll

    Always good to hear your input

  88. #89 Zetetic
    October 10, 2009

    The correct answer, as to the race of the anti-vaxxers, is…..the Organians. The advanced race that would not let Star Fleet and the Klingons engage in a galactic war. The pro-vaccine faction is of course represented by the reptilian Gorn.

    Hmmm… no neither of those fit, bonus points for the classic Star Trek references though.

    Anti-vaxers aren’t trying to prevent a conflict, rather they are provoking one. More like the Klingons in the episode “A Private Little War”. On the other hand the Gorn were trying to defend themselves from federation incursion, so I guess that fits OK.

    I’ve changed my opinion though (which was in jest) the anti-vaxers are far more like the group in the episode “The Way to Eden”. The “hippie” group that wants to avoid modern technology because they believe that it’s making them sick. They want to return to what they believe to be natural.

    Granted it’s not a race, but it’s a much better fit.

  89. #90 Sid Offit
    October 10, 2009

    Well since we’re changing opinions and if you want to get technical, and I hate to steal the race you picked, but, aren’t the Borg most like the pro-vaxxers – comply, protect the hive, sacrifice etc…

    And how is it that almost anyone can take over a starship?

  90. #91 Zetetic
    October 10, 2009

    Sid Offit @ #89:

    Well since we’re changing opinions and if you want to get technical, and I hate to steal the race you picked, but, aren’t the Borg most like the pro-vaxxers – comply, protect the hive, sacrifice etc…

    The problem with that analogy is that the Borg seek out those how are in no way a threat to either the Borg or even other races. The anti-vaxxers on the other hand due threaten public health by encouraging the spread of communicable diseases. That was why I earlier said that the Gorn would be a good fit for the pro-vaxxers. The federation, didn’t mean to invade the Gorn’s space, but they still did.

    Of course a simple solution to that would be for all of the anti-vaxxers to form a vaccine free community where that can spread diseases like polio to their heart’s content without threatening the rest of the public. (Just like the “hippie” group in Star Trek.) Of course then they’ll have the problem of what to blame further cases of Autism on, but I’m sure they find something or someone else to scapegoat, they seem to be adept at that.

    And how is it that almost anyone can take over a starship?

    Now that’s a good question…Minimum wage security guards, maybe?
    ;-)

  91. #92 dlnevins
    October 10, 2009

    That’s right, wave your fancy-schmancy calculations around, you arrogant, kid-killing jerk. All you’ve done is to prove that IV solutions are DEADLY POISON!!! Lactated Ringers and Normal Saline solutions are clearly a conspiracy on the part of Big Pharm to injure helpless children all in the name of profit. IVs should be illegal, illegal!

    (You have far more patience with the anti-vaccine crowd than I could ever manage, Orac. How you keep from losing you mind while combating their idiocy is beyond me. Let’s hope no one tells Dawn and Jeffry about the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide; I hear it’s the single largest ingredient in vaccines, and once they research its chemical properties, they’re not going to approve of it being injected into children’s bodies at all.)

  92. #93 ESPness
    October 10, 2009

    Yup, the space hippies is dead on the mark.

    Quote from the plot:

    “Medical scans reveal the party to be in good health, except for Dr. Sevrin, who is a carrier of the Synthecoccus Novae virus, which has been accidentally created by technological society.

    The disease is fatal to anyone who hasn’t been vaccinated, but he nonetheless insists that the planet of Eden will somehow “cleanse” him, and that his group will build a new civilization, the likes of which the galaxy has never seen before.

    After interviewing him, Spock concludes that Sevrin is clinically insane.”

  93. #94 Katharine
    October 11, 2009

    They might want to steer away from oxygen. It makes things combust.

    Also, since you’re trotting out the space hippies from Star Trek, it would not be much beyond us to conclude that Dr. Sevrin is Andrew Wakefield, Irina Galliulin is, oh, I don’t know, somebody who had a good, usable brain but was sufficiently lacking in common sense to be brought into the antivaxxers’ schemes, and Pavel Chekov is a blithering accomodationist.

  94. #95 Katharine
    October 11, 2009

    Not like I care much about Star Trek, though.

    I’m wondering what other chemicals that are prevalent in our bodies the antivaxxers believe we shouldn’t have .

  95. #96 Chris
    October 11, 2009

    The other chemicals would include formaldehyde, and squalene (it is a precursor to cholesterol, and not in American vaccines).

  96. #97 Jacksonskepticalsociety
    October 13, 2009

    I wonder what will happen when they find the MSDS for friggin’ water.

    Of course even “all natural” vinegar has a MSDS.

    And you ever read the MSDS on those nasty chelation ingredients?

  97. #98 MS
    October 14, 2009

    This kind of crap is only going to get worse. Case in point: Tom Harkin being the new head of the Senate Health, Education, Labor And Pensions Committee. Harkin’s fought on the side of well-informed good for some science-related topics, but it seems he’s joined the “too many vaccines at once” crowd. I just can’t wait to see how this goes.