i-01aa99c03bc58dd585f522d0b22a96c1-DataHolmes.jpg

Unfortunately, Brent Spiner is not living up to Commander Data’s portrayal of Sherlock Holmes.

Say it ain’t so, Data! Say it ain’t so!

Last night, I decided for the heck of it to check my Twitter account, something I only tend to do sporadically, although I do keep a constant stream of links to the latest Insolence flowing, to the gratitude and awe of my followers, when I saw this Tweet directed at me from someone with the ‘nym Zombie President:

@BrentSpiner I prefer @oracknows over Dr jay gordon any day.

Huh? I wondered what was going on. One thing you should know before I continue is that Brent Spiner is an active Twitterer (although after this incident I may have to refer to him as an active twit if his response to criticism shows that he is not educable). In fact, he’s pretty darned funny at times. I recall a few months ago that he did a rather extended story in Twitter, complete with an attack on his house, his forced retreat to a safe room, and all sorts of other twists and turns, all over the course of several days. Given that I’ve been a long time Trek fan ever since I was a little kid and that I used to watch Star Trek: The Next Generation almost religiously over the course of its seven year run, with Data being one of my favorite characters, I had more than ample reason to follow Spiner’s Tweets.

Seeing the Tweet above, I looked some more. I didn’t have far to look to find this Tweet directed at me from Bandon Decker, who Tweeted:

@BrentSpiner Have you considered following @oracknows ? I find he makes much more sense than @JayGordonMDFAAP.

Uh-oh. What was this about? I had to investigate. So I went to Spiner’s Twitter feed and found this Tweet:

Check out my new follow. Dr. Jay Gordon. He makes a lot of sense.

Oh, no, this didn’t look good at all, especially when it was followed by this Tweet:

RT @MaggieL : That’d be easier if we knew his Twitter name. You mean this guy: http://www.drjaygordon.com?…

Bummer. There was no mistake. Brent Spiner appeared on the surface to have drunk deeply of the anti-vaccine Kool Aid. But was it just on the surface, or is Spiner really an anti-vaccinationist? Let’s see if we can figure it out. I waded into the Twitter exchange that followed–and was appalled.

What I next noticed was a Tweet by SusietheGeek:

@BrentSpiner Are you an antivaxxer, or just against the flu vaccine? It’s a big deal to folks, so I would like to know where you stand.

An excellent question, exactly the one I was wondering. What was Brent Spiner’s answer? This:

RT @SusietheGeek @BrentSpiner Are you an antivaxxer–Not completely. But it’s worth investigating before letting drug cos. bamboozle us.

Oh, no! “Not completely”? That implies that Brent Spiner is at least partially anti-vaccine! Worse, he’s spewing the usual conspiracy mongering paranoia about drug companies, all the while thinking that Dr. Jay Gordon is a reliable source of information about vaccines. He’s anything but, and, in case Mr. Spiner ever actually reads this, I think it’s worth showing why with a “greatest hits,” so to speak, of my previous encounters with Dr. Jay, in more or less chronologic order since 2005:

And, in case that isn’t enough, here’s a bit more from others:

I realize that I’m killing the proverbial ant with a Howitzer, but, should Mr. Spiner ever actually read this post, I want him to know that Dr. Jay Gordon, although he fervently denies that he is anti-vaccine, routinely repeats many tropes and canards spread by the anti-vaccine movement, even going so far as to speak at Jenny McCarthy’s anti-vaccine “Green Our Vaccines” march on Washington in 2008. Not that I have a lot of hope. A little later on, Spiner Tweeted:

Have not advised anyone what to do other than to investigate all available info. If you’d rather just go with the status quo, be my guest.

Ah, yes, the famous old anti-vaccine “I’m just asking questions” or “I’m just telling you to investigate.” But where did Spiner just suggest that his 1,186,804 followers go to “investigate”? To Dr. Jay Gordon’s website! in other words, Brent Spiner apparently considers Dr. Jay Gordon to be a reliable source of information about vaccines in general and the H1N1 vaccine in particular. Yet, as has been shown time and time again on this blog and in numerous other places, Dr. Jay Gordon, whether he considers himself “anti-vaccine” or not, routinely spews the most embarrassing bits of nonsense, for instance, his most recent dropping on that repository of quackery and anti-vaccine madness, The Huffington Post, A “National Emergency?” No, a National Anxiety Attack. Similarly, he was Tweeting his usual nonsense about Gardasil, swine flu, and vaccines right before Spiner discovered him. Such, apparently, are the ideas that “make sense.” At the very least, Spiner fell for this doozy:

@unifex Anti-vaccination is an uneducated point of view. Similar to unequivocally recommending ALL vaccines.

How massive a straw man is that? Who “unequivocally recommends ALL vaccines”? I, for instance, have expressed reservations about Gardasil, not because I think the vaccine is unsafe but because I question whether its benefits are worth the high price of the vaccine and worry that it might detract from other childhood vaccines, particularly if it is mandated. I do like the typical fallacy of moderation that Dr. Jay is using. Basically, he’s trying to paint himself as being “moderate” and between what he claims to be two “extreme” positions, but that is a false impression. The only “extreme’ position is the anti-vaccine position he so frequently defends, all the while whining when he is called anti-vaccine. But here’s the problem. Science is far more on the side of the current vaccine schedule than it is on Dr. Jay’s. That’s because Dr. Jay has no evidence that vaccines cause autism or are anywhere as close to risky as going without is, and he has admitted as such. Indeed, he keeps telling us that his personal clinical experience trumps epidemiology and science. Well, he doesn’t quite tell us that, but he sure appears to believe it, because he keeps saying that vaccines cause autism but, when pressed, admits that there is no good scientific evidence to support that view and that he bases the view on his own anecdotal experience.

Such is the physician that Spiner considers to be “making sense.” He then Tweeted this:

RT @unifex Considering unfollowing @BrentSpiner due to #antivax position. –Over my position to educate yourself? Better unfollow.

And this:

They have a vaccination for Swine flu. Is there one for pig-headedness?

Good question. It sounds as though Mr. Spiner could use one.

I realize Data is a fictional character, but, even so, I wish that the spirit of Data would infuse the actor who played him and drive out the Malibu-inspired woo that has apparently lodged itself into his brain. I also encourage anyone with a Twitter account to gently try to educate Spiner regarding the error of his ways. In the meantime, I can’t help but think that Data weeps (after his emotion chip was turned on, of course) at the nonsense that Spiner has been laying down. In fact, I suggest a new hash tag for Twitter discussions of Spiner: #dataweeps.

That and #antivax.

Comments

  1. #1 Moderately Unbalanced Squid
    October 29, 2009

    Commander Data @ 179: Perhaps you should attempt to access that part of your phyche. (emphasis added)

    Sorry, the algal overmind is not accepting access requests at this time. Try later, puny anthropomorph!

  2. #2 Katharine
    October 29, 2009

    …DoctrinalUnfairness, you do know that human bodies actually produce squalene.

    And it’s in olive oil.

    Right?

  3. #3 Antaeus Feldspar
    October 29, 2009

    …DoctrinalUnfairness, you do know that human bodies actually produce squalene.

    And it’s in olive oil.

    Right?

    Don’t give us that “human bodies actually produce squalene and it’s in olive oil”! That’s a strawman, by which we mean data contrary to our vague hypothesis!

  4. #4 jj
    October 29, 2009

    @DoctrinalFairness

    kombucha, (which i think is horribly dangerous and MAJOR woo)

    I normally stray as far from woo as possible, but I’m going to have to argue for kombucha here. Granted I see absolutely no reason to give it to children. I don’t buy into the whole wonder tonic idea, but the stuff is great. Perfect for a hangover. Just the right amount of hair-of-the-dog (it does contain alcohol, BTW). Probiotics – I’m iffy on, although it is supposed to help with digestion, not too sure if there is ANY evidence behind that. Other than that, the main substances are – water, caffeine (it’s made from tea) and vinegar. It settles the stomach, and I’ve come to love the taste (it’s acquired, for sure).
    There is nothing dangerous about it. The only complication that has arose (this was in the mid 90’s) was from homemade stuff (I’ve done,it’s gross) that grows mold on it. You have to be careful in production Any commercial product will be thrown out if there is even a spec of black mold.

  5. #5 Chris
    October 29, 2009

    mariane:

    I apologize to Tawny for doubting she was a nurse. I had no real evidence for that.

    Perhaps she is a chiropractic nurse. Do chiropractors have nurses?

  6. #6 Sid Offit
    October 29, 2009

    @Chris
    You’ve been shown the safety studies on another thread,
    ——————————–
    We’re not all as hopelessly credulous as Todd W.

    Two drug company studies one of which looked at:

    Overall, 89 children were enrolled, vaccinated and analyzed for safety

    and another looking at AEs in 145 toddlers

  7. #7 Luna_the_cat
    October 29, 2009

    DactrinalFairness said People 65 and older can’t even get cancer treatment from the NHS- you are going to tell me that they are closely monitoring vaccine adverse effects?

    And I say, doctrinal, I LIVE in the UK, and you are once again repeating complete bullshit.

    First — I’ve had two older relatives (in their late 70s) receiving cancer treatments within the last 2 years. They were hardly unique in the older population. There is no age limit to who gets cancer treatment here!!!

    Second — the vaccine monitoring system here is the MHRA Yellow Card Scheme, and this has a sister site dedicated solely to tracking and monitoring flu vaccine reactions.

    Squalene safety in toddlers, infants and neonates was also included in the testing of several vaccines in Europe. The studies were not large, but they DO exist. And honestly, in a decade of using squalene as an adjuvant in 11 European countries (and yes, they do vaccine monitoring in Europe, too) we have had absolutely NO indication that it increases autoimmune anything.

    Seriously, you have your “facts” wrong. Just…wrong.

  8. #8 DLC
    October 29, 2009

    Wow, a whole 201 comments and nary a brain consumed by the undead fuhrer. A couple of trolls and a couple fakes, but no sign of the hitler zombie.

  9. #9 Ender
    October 29, 2009

    You know who loved to comment on long threads that have avoided the hitler zombie? Nazis.

  10. #10 DoctrinalFairness
    October 29, 2009

    Katherine, I’m fully aware of the composition of squalene. It appears that when you inject said “olive oil” directly into the veins, there is a significantly higher profile of adverse events indicating inflammation- fever, malaise,pain, swelling, etc, than happens without it. The injection of the unadjuvanted antigen alone will do this, too, but it will eventually confer some protection from the virus. That’s the adverse event sacrifice and unknown risk that parents and children can be asked to make to the “tribe”. But don’t then add add something that IS NOT REQUIRED TO BE THERE, something with higher retrogenicity, then talk about doubling the dose of both to then REALLY cascade this effect and ask me to then take it for the team and put my child in harms way in a way that could have been avoided.
    At that point, I will take my chances and you will lose one more former team player, which will weaken the herd immunity.
    And I promise you, that is what is playing out right now, 1x1x1. People no longer believ you because of things like this- no one really knows what is going to happen in the long term with children- it’s a guess.

    Regarding the studies. These studies examined very small groups of children- 300, 99 with numbers that would NEVER fly here on this blog if I wanted to justify something that you would all scream woo-esque and alternative,like acupuncture for millions of people for pain.
    We are rolling out many new vaccines with squalene adjuvants as soon as US FDA Goodman opens the pipeline and it will take YEARS for an infants intestine to have rotted enough to have several inches removed and NO ONE will count this as an effect. Hit and run. And you cannot prove at the moment it does NOT happen. I should just take your word for it.
    I am not looking to blame vax manufacturers for what I know is a genetic illness. But don’t ask me to harm my child further because you did shoddy testing and are having an experiment.

    These studies examined seasonal flu adjuvanted vaccine (Fluad) using the control of the aduvanted H5N1 vaccine (how do we even have that yet? has that yet even mutated and appeared somewhere?), making it impossible to demonstrate that unadjuvanted vaccine does not have anywhere NEAR the adverse effects as adjuvanted and is the safer alternative.
    No. If you can justify this kind of thing, when someone on the FDA committee proceedings said that this InfluenzaA has been circulating for DECADES, then we really, really stink at making certain that vaccines are safe and all of your whackos have a point.

    It would also really be wonderful to see just one or two of you from time to time admit to real analysis of the Kool-Aid drinking that is going on about the safety for children of adjuvanted vaccines, especially in lieu of what just happened in Germany.
    Adults didn’t even want it- and it has been given in Europe “safely” to millions of adults over 65.
    And how would you ever truly find long term adverse autoimmune reactions in that population anyway? In Europe?
    Are the German government ministers anti-vax whackos or not?
    Or are you all playing the newest version of “Poke and Hope”?

  11. #11 DLC
    October 29, 2009

    Or people who’ve seen the typical pro/anti vaccine discussion digress into name calling and eventually into Argumentum Ad Hitlerum too many times, and who are surprised to see no one break out the too easy and too frequently used comparison to Hitler or the nazis.

  12. #12 DoctrinalFairness
    October 29, 2009

    There is no age limit to who gets cancer treatment here!!!

    And THAT is complete bullshit! I’m in the UK as we speak and spent the morning with a friend whose 62 yr old brother is too old to be enrolled in ANY clinical trial for his cancer. He doesn’t have private insurance, which anyone who is affluent in the UK seems to require. On my way over here, my seatmate was a nurse from the USA who was going to see her dying mother in Essex and SHE WAS THE ONE who told me that.
    Luna, if a senior citizen gets Rhumatoid Arthritis, will that be reported as a vaccine side effect?

  13. #13 LC
    October 29, 2009

    Wow – if trek fanbois freak out this much over Orac’s comments concerning Mr Spinner and mentioning his character Data, it’s probably a good thing that DeForest Kelly is dead.

    Imagine the sh*t storm if Orac dared criticise the actor of Dr McCoy.

  14. #14 DLC
    October 29, 2009

    Uh, Doc ? a clinical trial is not accepted medicine.
    it’s called a trial because they’re trying it out to see how it works in real patients. The conditions for acceptance for a clinical trial are set by the scientists and doctors doing the study, not by the NHS.

  15. #15 Phoenix Woman
    October 29, 2009

    For folks wondering who this weird “PubMed” character is, it’s not a Ferengi, it’s a database:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

  16. #16 DoctrinalFairness
    October 29, 2009

    There is nothing they can do for him at 62 with Stage Cancer. He is too old for any clinical trials. You all screamed about Dr. Simmoncini, I was online looking up Alternative Treatment this morning.

  17. #17 DoctrinalFairness
    October 29, 2009

    There is nothing they can do for him at 62 with some kind of late stage blood cancer, which is all my friend knew. He was told was too old for any clinical trials. You all screamed about Dr. Simmoncini, I was online looking up Alternative Treatment this morning, because thats whats left. Woo.

  18. #18 Joseph C.
    October 29, 2009

    Are the German government ministers anti-vax whackos or not?

    Let’s take another stab at this. The answers to scientific problems are decided by scientists, not politicians. I don’t really see how this such a difficult concept for you. We hope that politicians make decisions based on the best available science as delivered by their advisers, but this process breaks down frequently. And yes there are PLENTY of woo politicians. Ever heard of Tom Harkin, Dan Burton, or Prince Charles?

  19. #19 Dedj
    October 29, 2009

    My dad is 70 this year (might even be 71) yet he has had no problem getting a biopsy as part of a cancer investigation.

    Other people I’ve worked with (in an older persons unit in the east england area) had been recieving cancer care.

    Admission criteria for clinical trials are not transferable to oncology services, as clinical trials tend to prefer people who are likely to experience only the target illness during the trial phase. This tends to be ‘younger’ people.

    I would be interested in who the offending Trust is, assuming the story is true, which it (very) occasionally is. The NSF for Older Persons clearly lays out in its opening standard that cancer care (and others) should be based on clinical need.

  20. #20 JohnV
    October 29, 2009

    @DoctrinalFairness

    “Ritchie, you tell me- are all of these secondary bacterial infections in ANY age group the cause or the result of a cytokine storm- I’m not a doctor and I haven’t a clue.”

    Interferon gamma increases from viral infections can lead to increased susceptibility to bacterial infection (S. pneumo for example). In mice at least.

    http://www.jci.org/articles/view/35412

  21. #21 Sean Case
    October 29, 2009

    Brent Spiner telling me to “educate myself” about vaccines is about as helpful as Tom Cruise telling me to “educate myself” about psychiatry, or Mel Gibson telling me to “educate myself” about world politics.

  22. #22 SurgeryRN
    October 29, 2009

    I hope Tawny isn’t an RN. She gives the rest of us a bad name. The profession doesn’t need people like that.

  23. #23 Chris
    October 30, 2009

    You all screamed about Dr. Simmoncini, I was online looking up Alternative Treatment this morning, because thats whats left. Woo….Posted by: DoctrinalFairness | October 29, 2009 9:51 PM

    You keep weird hours for someone claiming to be in the UK. Almost 10:00 PM in USA Eastern Daylight Time is the wee hours of the morning in the UK. You are not Canadian, and I have not seen the more interesting spelling… why in bloody hell are you worried about squalene, which is not used in the USA?

  24. #24 Chris
    October 30, 2009

    In case you forgot, squalene is not approved for use in vaccines in the USA.

  25. #25 Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP
    October 30, 2009

    @Bob,: “putz?” Naah, misguided occasionally. Those “TBBT” guys are not nerds! They’re smart, quirky people who perseverate and rarely see others’ points of view. That’s what I meant!

    @Militant: Oh! And they lack a sense of humor, too.

    @Tawny: Nurses should always tell docs when they’re wrong. Lives get saved. Thanks!

    @JohnV: Well said, but the percentage of fatalities will be small and probably unavoidable with or without a vaccine.

    @Sid: Again, thanks. Pharmaceutical manufacturers make billions of dollars selling vaccines and the old canard about they’re being “money losers” will never be chased out of this blog. It’s a canard and a straw man and a fallacy all at once! You guys . . .

    @Chris: Wanna’ bet that the declaration of “emergency” will lead to other adjuvants being allowed?

    Gulf War Syndrome: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10640454
    “The majority of symptomatic GWS patients had serum antibodies to squalene.”

    @Tawny: Difficult to argue with people who talk and don’t listen, isn’t it? I also am not “anti-vaccine.” The first thing I did in my office this morning was give two DPaT shots. The people in here are absolutely impervious to reason. If you question, you must be anti-vaccine!

    @phantomreader42: Try to be s little more moderate when you don’t understand an answer.

    Omigod, this is hard. There’s almost no substance to these posts. Just nastiness and anger. And so much hyperbole that there’s no honest exchange of information.

    Here’s the heart of the issue: This new H1N1 virus is here to stay and doctors should discuss vaccination with their higher risk patients. Low risk people will eventually be exposed to the disease and this might be the best year to get the “weakest” iteration of Swine Flu.

    I am aiming to get Orac to five-and-a-half-million views by sundown.

    Best To You All!

    Jay

  26. #26 OurSally
    October 30, 2009

    I want to defend the poor Germans. We don’t all obtain our information from tabloids.

    I checked the statistics website and it says 78% are not planning to be inoculated. This does not mean they are against it. The government says there is not enough for us all, and first health personnel, police, the armed forces, and so on should get it, followed by people who are at risk. It is also generally thought that a person in normal health does not need to worry much about flu.

    If we really do get an epidemic they will be queuing up at the doctor, don’t worry. The press is always promising us epidemics which don’t turn up, so most of us will wait and see.

    P.S. An educated German speaks and writes English very well, as a rule. If someone cannot spell, and cannot even use a spell checker, this is a sign of some missed opportunities in school.

  27. #27 Commander Data
    October 30, 2009

    @ Moderately Unbalanced Squid (#201):

    Sorry, the algal overmind is not accepting access requests at this time. Try later, puny anthropomorph

    I am superior, sir, in many ways. But I would gladly give it up to be human.

  28. #28 Commander Data
    October 30, 2009

    @ Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP (#225):

    Here’s the heart of the issue: This new H1N1 virus is here to stay and doctors should discuss vaccination with their higher risk patients. Low risk people will eventually be exposed to the disease and this might be the best year to get the “weakest” iteration of Swine Flu.

    I would gladly risk feeling bad at times if it also meant that I could taste my dessert.

  29. #29 Mike Barnes
    October 30, 2009

    Doctrinalfairness –

    Cytokines happen to be storming in the bodies of 600 people in the UK right now who are in intensive care. (Somehow we never hear whether any of them got the seasonal or H1N1 flu shot, though, or WHICH underlying condition they had.)

    It’s not only the lack of plausible fact in the above quotation, but the tone that rankles.

    Fact: the H1N1 vaccine is only just now – literally just now – being rolled out to highest priority at-risk groups. It’s therefore pretty unlikely that many, or perhaps any, of the six hundred in intensive care had either the H1N1 or flu shot (they have different at-risk groups anyway).

    Somehow we never hear whether any of them got the seasonal or H1N1 flu shot, though, or WHICH underlying condition they had.

    The use of this language is itself toxic. It implies – without being so crass as to say so in words – that there’s some kind of conspiracy at work. This is clearly someone who would, on another blog, would be ‘asking legitimate questions’ about 9/11 or climate change.

    P.S. As for underlying conditions, extreme asthma or pregnancy will probably feature prominently. The truth, as usual, is banal.

  30. #30 Luna_the_cat
    October 30, 2009

    Jay:
    ““The majority of symptomatic GWS patients had serum antibodies to squalene.”” — What you forgot to mention there is, so did the ones who didn’t have symptoms, and those who had never received any suspect vaccines. So you are trying to imply that a set of antibodies common between those who received the vaccines and those who didn’t, those who had symptoms and those who didn’t, was somehow the thing which came from the vaccine and was responsible for the symptoms. Complete Logic Fail. And you’re supposed to be a doctor???

    Doctrinal: I repeat, I live in the UK. I have a lot of older relatives here, including two with cancer. Elderly neighbor had lung cancer. Previous elderly neighbor had breast cancer. None of these people ever went begging for treatment on the NHS (oh, and no, you do NOT need private insurance. I had it for a while and gave it up as a complete waste of money here). There are clinical guidelines in every part of the UK for treating elderly with cancer. And the only “evidence” for a lack of treatment are occasional newspaper complaints that elderly cancer patients might be denied the newest of the drugs on the market at times. And despite all this — you call me a liar. Plus, you obviously don’t understand the difference between “trial” and “treatment.” I don’t exactly have a lot of respect for you at the moment — see if you can figure out why.

    Speaking of which: I had a look at all the papers about squalene causing RA in rodents, and I think maybe you missed something — the lowest amount of squalene injected into the rodents is about double, in mg per kg of body weight (or in the rodents, mcg/gram of body weight really) than the highest dosage of squalene in a vaccine is for even a small child. I get that you don’t understand dose response, but please try to understand: amount makes a difference.

    And has been pointed out to you before, though, you need to apply basic logic: squalene has been in use in Europe for over a decade now. If it increased the incidence of RA, surely we would be able to see the increase of RA since the advent of this adjuvant. WE DON’T. WE HAVE NOT. Therefore, there is no real world evidence whatsoever that squalene as an adjuvant causes this effect.

    Please spare us the histrionics about “it will take YEARS for an infants intestine to have rotted enough to have several inches removed” and how we can’t prove it DOESN’T happen. We can’t prove that the entire world wasn’t created by a capricious deity last Tuesday with the appearance of age and false memories for everyone. We can’t prove that UFOs DON’T come down and anally probe people, ever, either. We have absolutely no evidence, anywhere, ever, that it happens, though. It’s not even biologically plausible! But still, you consider this more important than risking peoples lives from an entirely tangible, real, measurable contagious disease???

    Seriously: you weight this nebulous, unproven, unevidenced, only vaguely potential and extremely unlikely danger over the entirely provable, tangible, measurable danger of pediatric fatality from flu — where we can actually point to the numbers of seriously ill and dead. What the HELL kind of “logic” leads you to do this?

  31. #31 Jud
    October 30, 2009

    dcotrinalfairness writes:

    There is nothing they can do for him at 62 with some kind of late stage blood cancer, which is all my friend knew. He was told was too old for any clinical trials. You all screamed about Dr. Simmoncini, I was online looking up Alternative Treatment this morning, because thats whats left. Woo.

    As you’ve already been told, clinical trials are not some sort of NHS-sponsored treatment modality, they are quite literally human medical experimentation, and are very tightly controlled for sound medical and ethical reasons.

    I’m sorry your friend is terminally ill, but how is spending his money on worthless pseudo-medical crap supposed to improve the time he has left? Hopefully better ways of being a friend during this difficult time will open to you when and if he’s ready.

  32. #32 Jud
    October 30, 2009

    Luna_the_cat writes: What the HELL kind of “logic” leads you to do this?

    Yes, one wonders whether folks using this sort of “reasoning” would hesitate to deliver their children from a burning home because it’s never been conclusively proved that the flame retardant fumes you might breathe as you rushed from the house have absolutely no chance of causing cancer decades hence.

  33. #33 DaveL
    October 30, 2009

    Gulf War Syndrome: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10640454
    “The majority of symptomatic GWS patients had serum antibodies to squalene.”

    And? How does this relate to vaccines? Squalene is not used as an adjuvant in U.S. vaccines, and the trace amounts found in the anthrax vaccine are far lower than the natural background level.

    @Tawny: Difficult to argue with people who talk and don’t listen, isn’t it?

    I also am not “anti-vaccine.” The first thing I did in my office this morning was give two DPaT shots. The people in here are absolutely impervious to reason. If you question, you must be anti-vaccine!

    It’s not that you question, it’s that you ignore answers that aren’t the one you want. See the example with squalene above. Clearly you aren’t interested in finding out, for example, whether the use of squalene in vaccines contributed to GWS because if you were you wouldn’t ignore the facts that were brought up in this thread.

  34. #34 DoctrinaFairness
    October 30, 2009

    BTW, I am an American staying temporarily in the UK and found it humorous that Luna was also awake at nearly three in the morning, but no one questioned her odd hours. I will ask my friend about her brother, who we were discussing in the context of my own 54 year old brother in law in the USA who is also terminal- and what danger is there in trying out alternatives after being told there is nothing else for you and to get your affairs in order?
    Please also show me that squalene based adjuvants have been used safely in Europe for years, Luna. Seriously, are you comfortable enough with the evidence to warrant the hysterical and united defense by nearly every scientist on this blog for a substance that until very recently (April, 2009?) been approved only for people aged 65 and over?
    I will search for and later find the exhaustive list of pre-existing conditions in this age group that would confound or disqualify any evidence of a newly diagnosed auto-immune disorder or most reactions, but you would already know that.
    In the meantime, do continue to defend the results of studies on roughly 1300 children who were studied in such interesting contexts, eg the comparison of adjuvanted H5N1 vaccine to adjuvanted Fluad as in the study Todd furnished on the other thread, for just starters?
    >>>About Fluad®
    Fluad®, the only MF59TM-adjuvanted seasonal influenza vaccine, is licensed for active immunization against influenza in elderly subjects (65 years of age and over)…
    http://www.novartisvaccines.com/downloads/newsroom/media-releases/20071019_FluadVACCINEpublication.pdf< << And yes, I used unproven hyperpole and equally hysterical assertions in my illustration about the diseased bowel and the 600 people in the ICU. But thus far you engage in exactly the same hyperbole in defense of vaccination with an unproven substance vs risk of the flu, while having absolutely no proof what will happens to a small child's immune system in the long term. What is the risk of increasing a circulating cytokine (IL6) in a young body that is exposed but has not yet broken out with symptoms and receives the flu shot during this period? Once again, I contend parents need to know the actual risks of both- and you HAVE NO REAL IDEA. The majority of studies (and absymally small numbers) compared oranges to oranges- check them yourselves. These are children and babies and the Adverse Events in the very few studies that compared adjuvanted to unadjuvanted show notably higher AE's in adjuvanted- with zero understanding of how this contributes to the dysregulation of systemic inflammation down the road. And I am expected to furnish the proof of this? WHere are YOUR genuine questions about this??? I'm not a doctor and never claimed to be a scientist. YOU read the studies http://www.emea.europa.eu/ and explain how they are justification to inject millions of children with adjuvanted vaccine. Yes, it is HIDEOUS that people are dying from this flu and millions can probably be vaccinated without question with a minimum of worry- but Dr. JAy- WHO is our risk group? Every one of the risk groups that I have seen are also diseases with dyregulated IL6- in which case until more is known EVRY one of them should get unadjuvanted Vaccine with much lower inflammatory AE profile.

  35. #35 tl
    October 30, 2009

    Jay:

    @Sid: Again, thanks. Pharmaceutical manufacturers make billions of dollars selling vaccines and the old canard about they’re being “money losers” will never be chased out of this blog. It’s a canard and a straw man and a fallacy all at once! You guys . . .

    Well, since Sid failed to back up that claim (instead dishonestly posting total market value and speaking as if that were the same as profit), perhaps you could back up the claim that manufacturers make billions of dollars selling vaccines.

  36. #36 Dangerous Bacon
    October 30, 2009

    I see Dr. Jay is back – to cheer on antivaxers, jeer at his critics, and complain about “canards”. Speaking of which…

    Dr. Jay says in his latest post: “Here’s the heart of the issue: This new H1N1 virus is here to stay and doctors should discuss vaccination with their higher risk patients. Low risk people will eventually be exposed to the disease and this might be the best year to get the “weakest” iteration of Swine Flu.”

    This statement implies that Dr. Jay will be “discussing” H1N1 vaccination with his “higher risk” patients, and one would think this means that some would wind up getting immunized. But on his website, Dr. Jay says the following:

    “I also won’t be giving the flu shot to the kids and parents in my practice unless there are extraordinary risk factors. I anticipate giving none at all this year.” (bolding added)

    So, Dr. Jay has 1) apparently made up a category of “extraordinary risk” patients for whom H1N1 vaccination is theoretically possible, but somehow he anticipates giving none of them protection. Then he comes in here and talks about “discussing” vaccination with a similarly nebulous “higher risk” group (“higher risk” sounds more encompassing than “extraordinary” risk, but we still have no idea what Dr. Jay is talking about).

    The CDC‘s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices has recommended initial emphasis on vaccinating patients in five groups it considers at high risk from H1N1 flu, including pregnant women, people who live with or care for infants under 6 months of age, and children and young adults aged 6 months to 24 years. Tell us, Dr. Jay, do you see any patients/parents who fall into these groups, and what are you “discussing” with them? Do you consider anyone coming under these guidelines to be at high enough risk to recommend vaccine protection? Do you treat any patients with cystic fibrosis, asthma, immune system disorders or other chronically ill children who are even more at risk from H1N1, and are they “extraordinary” enough to deserve being immunized?

    Have you taken these children and parents into account in anticipating that you will give the H1N1 vaccine to no one this year?

    If you still plan on immunizing no one in your practice, how do you reconcile that with your claim of not being an antivaxer?

    Here’s yet another chance for you to elevate the level of discussion here (which you so deplore) and provide actual content. Or will you duck direct questions yet again?

  37. #37 Commander Data
    October 30, 2009

    @ Luna_the_cat (#230),

    Jay:
    “The majority of symptomatic GWS patients had serum antibodies to squalene.” — What you forgot to mention there is, so did the ones who didn’t have symptoms, and those who had never received any suspect vaccines. So you are trying to imply that a set of antibodies common between those who received the vaccines and those who didn’t, those who had symptoms and those who didn’t, was somehow the thing which came from the vaccine and was responsible for the symptoms. Complete Logic Fail. And you’re supposed to be a doctor???

    It is interesting that people try to find meaningful patterns in things that are essentially random. I have noticed that the images they perceive sometimes suggest what they are thinking about at that particular moment.

  38. #38 Luna_the_cat
    October 30, 2009

    Doctrinal: Time Zone Fail or Reading Comprehension Fail? Luna was most certainly NOT up at 3am — not last night, anyway.

    Fluad is the most common vaccine which contains a squalene-based adjuvant — it is most certainly not the only vaccine. One of the trials where the effect of a squalene-based adjuvant was monitored in neonates was a trial of vaccines to prevent HIV transmission from an infected mother.

    But MF59, the squalene-based adjuvant, has been in use in flu vaccines since at least 1996 — it is mentioned in The 3rd European Conference on Vaccinology: Building lifelong immunity, for example. And I honestly cannot understand why you think it is ONLY for over-65s– I haven’t got a flu jab this year yet, but I went with my grandfather to get one in 2007, and we got exactly the same thing (I am an occasional carer for kids with health issues, so I go for every vaccination). I have not heard of separate stocks for jabs for over-65s and under-65s; this is just daft.

    I think the fact that you cannot tell the difference between hysterical hyperbole, and people getting completely fed up with your logic and fact failures, is part of the problem. Tell me, have you spent any time at all evaluating the content of the responses to you, and thinking through what people are telling you about why they do not share your concerns?

    I leave you with one more thing:
    http://cdli.highwire.org/cgi/content/abstract/13/9/1010

    A clear finding of our study is that the vast majority of healthy adults have antibodies to squalene circulating in their sera. It is of note that these antibodies were found in individuals from various geographical areas, such as the United States, western Europe, and eastern Europe, which to our knowledge had never received vaccines or other pharmacological treatments containing squalene. The statistically significant difference found among the three cohorts studied here cannot be ascribed to vaccinations, since these people were never vaccinated previously with vaccines containing MF59. In some cohorts, the frequency of individuals with detectable levels of antisqualene antibodies was as high as 100%.

    It is not enough to say “I don’t have to believe this because it comes from Novartis”; you need to be able to point to actual data which would throw doubt on this finding in humans, for a start, and perhaps point out where this study was flawed.

  39. #39 Aj
    October 30, 2009

    “Have you been to the UK lately? People 65 and older can’t even get cancer treatment from the NHS- you are going to tell me that they are closely monitoring vaccine adverse effects?”

    You are a liar.

    I thought that fact should be repeated, just in case anyone slightly interested in what you spout is reading this and is unaware.

  40. #40 aratina cage
    October 30, 2009

    WTF? Whatever Brent Spiner says or does from now on has no impact on the greatness of the character he played in ST:TNG.

    Please. We must stop the insanity. Practically every person who affects our culture has quirks, you have to separate the art from the artist, and that goes for Jim Carey, Jenny McCarthy, and Bill Maher, too. You also have to realize that people do change their minds about things — not always in a good way.

    Anyway, I support you in your attack the falsehoods espoused, and encourage you to go after Brent Spiner in the off-chance that he becomes better educated on the subject, but leave Data and Brent Spiner’s artistic genius well enough alone! Besides, how do you know he isn’t just being a sarcastic ass and egging you on?

  41. #41 Commander Data
    October 30, 2009

    @aratina cage:

    WTF? Whatever Brent Spiner says or does from now on has no impact on the greatness of the character he played in ST:TNG.

    I am designed to exceed human capacity, both mentally and physically.

  42. #42 DoctrinalFairness
    October 30, 2009

    I apologize for engaging in unclear accusations, after hours before having sat with afriend whose 62 year old brother was told that there is no treatment other than palliative care nor any trial available to him (the trial due to his age) here in the UK. But the lies and minimizations of the unknown long term use of squalene here are astounding. Please direct me to any studies with data showing that squalene-based adjuvants have been safely used in children with little or no risk to increased autoimmune or inflammatory disease.
    Argue this woman’s science. http://www.newfluwiki2.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1560

  43. #43 titmouse
    October 30, 2009

    doctrinalfairness:

    And how would you ever truly find long term adverse autoimmune reactions in that population anyway? In Europe?

    The vaccine surveillance system was quite good in the pre-Internet 1970s and is even better now.

    In 1976 about 500 out of 40,000,000 people given the swine flu vaccine developed Guillan Barre syndrome (GBS), resulting in an immediate halt to the 10-week old vaccination effort. That’s about 1 person affected for every 100,000 vaccinated –i.e., extremely rare and not far off from the background incidence of 1-2 people per 1,000,000 per year. The fact that the CDC could recognize and respond to such a rare problem should reassure us that the surveillance system is quite good.

    But GBS is a relatively short-term effect. You asked about long-term effects, and by “long-term” I’m guessing you mean years later.

    Do we see long-term adverse effects from specific medical interventions without some evidence of short-term effects? I’m scratching my head here.

    Vaccines are merely a select few foreign antigens given to a body that encounters many thousands each day. I see no reason to believe that humans are in any greater danger of long-term injury from vaccines than they are from tooth brushing.

  44. #44 Frank Oswalt
    October 30, 2009

    @DoctrinalFairness (#242):

    I apologize for engaging in unclear accusations, after hours before having sat with afriend whose 62 year old brother was told that there is no treatment other than palliative care nor any trial available to him (the trial due to his age) here in the UK

    Sorry to be so blunt, but are you some kind of idiot? Clinical trials are NOT part of the health care system of ANY country. Whether you take part in a trial is determined by whether you fit the criteria set up for that trial, NOT by whether alternative treatments are available to you.

  45. #45 Todd W.
    October 30, 2009

    @doctrinalfairness

    I provided links to a couple studies of MF59 in children in the other thread where our discussion occurred.

  46. #46 Jane
    October 30, 2009

    What is the prevalence of Gulf War Syndrome in European civilian populations that have received squalene-adjuvanted vaccines?

    Why argue from such a narrow group (Gulf War veterans) of squalene-adjuvanted vaccine recipients (assuming arguendo) instead of showing the similar number of Gulf War Syndrome pts in non-military populations of squalene-adjuvanted vaccine recipients?

  47. #47 titmouse
    October 30, 2009

    Typo in my comment above. GBS incidence is about 1-2 people per 100,000 per year.

  48. #48 Mike Barnes
    October 30, 2009

    Some breaking news, which may be relevant:

    Only one dose of vaccine is needed for protection against pandemic H1N1 flu and the jabs have so far proved to be safe, the World Health Organisation said on Friday. The WHO has repeatedly sought to reassure people around the world that the H1N1 vaccines being made by 25 different companies, with various formulations, are safe.

    “All the reports received to date following vaccination — either in clinical trials or in mass vaccination campaigns — have shown that the safety profile of these pandemic vaccines is good and is very similar to the one which is known for seasonal influenza vaccine,” said WHO expert Marie-Paule Kieny.

    “Nothing special in terms of adverse events has been noted,” Kieny, who heads the U.N. health agency’s vaccine research, told journalists on a telephone conference.

  49. #49 DoctrinalFairness
    October 30, 2009

    I must be an idiot, because all of our very best science after 30 years of cancer research has just released two under-65 year old men to palliative care and hospice. And I already apologized for my not being clear at repeating the word of two Brits on what they have conveyed as a dearth of options for cancer treatment for people in the UK in their age group, both people involved were late stage at diagnosis.

  50. #50 Michael Ralston
    October 30, 2009

    DF: You are at this point lying when you express concerns about squalene, which you have been told over and over is not approved for use in the US, which you have admitted is the country you live in.

    Even aside from that, you have demonstrated a complete lack of awareness as to what an adjuvant is or does.

    Since I haven’t seen anyone explain this for you, I guess I’ll take a stab at it.

    You see, the entire purpose of an adjuvant is to provoke an inflammatory response, so that a stronger immune response is provoked with less antigen. That is why the adjuvanted vaccines are available faster – because the limiting factor is the production of vaccine. There is no grand conspiracy to give people arthritis, and there is no real reason to believe that the amount of adjuvant found in adjuvanted vaccines causes any health problems – the USA limits adjuvants to only alum, while other countries don’t, yet we don’t see significantly different rates of any relevant diseases.

  51. #51 DoctrinalFairness
    October 30, 2009

    >>Vaccines are merely a select few foreign antigens given to a body that encounters many thousands each day. I see no reason to believe that humans are in any greater danger of long-term injury from vaccines than they are from tooth brushing.<< Yeah, tell that to the poster in the last thread who very quietly reported the death of their child with eczema, which last I checked was an autoimmune response involving dysregulated sebum (so much for the harmless squalene antibodies theory- disprove the relationship). The cavalier dismissal of the real CONCERNS is going to have profound effect on your CONCERN, once again, regarding the herd immunity needed to protect everyone. You disriss and ridicule it at your peril, also.

  52. #52 DoctrinalFairness
    October 30, 2009

    michael- what crap. we both know that it is just a matter of time until squalene based adjuvants are the “gold standard” of vaccines in the USA. Sweeping the many questions about them under the rug helps no one.
    The questions are now obviously shared by an entire body of government officials who are either, by your very own reasoning, all very ill-advised by the psuedoscientists in Germany and to be included as antivax fringe lunatics or YOU are lying, which is the tired accusation hurled at me. And I live in the USA, visit the UK and will refuse squalene adjuvants when the inevitably DO arrive in the USA until you prove to me why I should not.

  53. #53 Todd W.
    October 30, 2009

    @doctrinalfairness

    I did read the studies. They were some of the few that I could find that did not have someone from Novartis or Chiron as the lead author, since I figured objections would probably be raised otherwise. Also, on was a proof-of-concept study and one was a Phase II trial, which means they necessarily had limited numbers of enrollees, though certainly they were significantly better than, say, Andrew Wakefield’s 12 subjects that were fed to him by the lawyer representing their families and paying Wakefield. 89 subjects in the first link and over 400 in the second one are not all that bad. Also, they compared MF59 adjuvanted vaccine against a similar vaccine without MF59, so I’m satisfied with what they compared.

    If I had the time, I could do a bit more digging to find out what other studies have been done, looking at squalene, though from what I’ve seen so far, there has been no evidence of increased risk beyond slightly elevated chance of local reaction (itchiness, pain at the injection site, etc.).

    Do you have any studies that show significant risk beyond that? If so, please provide a link.

  54. #54 titmouse
    October 30, 2009

    Dr. Jay Gordon:

    Rather than looking at the possibility that there’s validity to using our limited supply of H1N1 vaccines selectively for higher risk children and adults, the chorus here shouts back “NO!!”

    I wish you would use specific language.

    The CDC recommends the swine flu vaccination for:
    – pregnant women
    – children 6 months to 4 years
    – children aged 5 to 18 years with medical conditions that put them at higher risk for influenza-related complications
    – people who live with or care for infants less than 6 months old
    – health care workers

    Once those people have been vaccinated and if supplies allow, the CDC recommends expansion of the list above to include:
    – persons 5 years to 24 years
    – persons 25 to 64 with medical conditions that put them at higher risk for influenza-related complications

    Dr. Gordon, please explain how your recommendations differ from the CDC guidelines.

  55. #55 Chris
    October 30, 2009

    DF:

    I must be an idiot,

    Yes, you are.

    I suggest that we either ignore this persistent troll… or just remind her each and every time she uses the word “squalene” that it is not used in the USA, and that she needs to post the studies that it poses a risk.

    (by the way folks upthread, it turns out the anthrax vaccine never had squalene — the Tulane study was small, and there are better more recent studies that I linked to when responding to Tawny)

  56. #56 DoctrinalFairness
    October 30, 2009

    As the parent of a child with Crohns disease, I was very authoritatively and unequivocally informed by several of her physicians and surgeons that there was no credible relationship between Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis (MAP) and the ongoing disease in her bowel. There WAS no room for debate and the implication was that by not heeding their advice, I was putting my child at death’s door.
    Imagine my surprise….
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%

    I don’t need to send you studies, Todd. You sound like such a reasonable person, how do you defend the excrutiatingly small bit of evidence (tiny, tiny numbers of controls for unadjuvanted of the safety in children of these adjuvants?) that squalene based adjuvants will not appear as conincidental autoimmune disease in a child of 2? Crohn’s disease in a 2 year old is an agonizing illness and I am not exagerrating. You don’t have a clue what causes it and at the moment, there is a giant question mark about these adjuvants and you want to add them willy-nilly to the bunches of new vaccines awaiting families and children.
    Expect some major resistance and much of it to come from your former supporters.

  57. #57 titmouse
    October 30, 2009
    Vaccines are merely a select few foreign antigens given to a body that encounters many thousands each day. I see no reason to believe that humans are in any greater danger of long-term injury from vaccines than they are from tooth brushing.

    Yeah, tell that to the poster in the last thread who very quietly reported the death of their child with eczema, which last I checked was an autoimmune response involving dysregulated sebum (so much for the harmless squalene antibodies theory- disprove the relationship). The cavalier dismissal of the real CONCERNS is going to have profound effect on your CONCERN, once again, regarding the herd immunity needed to protect everyone. You disriss and ridicule it at your peril, also.

    Eczema is a relatively common condition. If vaccination makes eczema worse, we should be able to see that easily.

    I’ve not felt moved to ridicule you thus far in this thread. At the moment, I actually feel some concern for you as you seem to be sliding around a bit in focus –for example, you responded to my post as if I’d ridiculed certain concerns when I hadn’t. Maybe a break from the webs for a day is in order.

  58. #58 DoctrinalFairness
    October 30, 2009

    As the parent of a child with Crohns disease, I was very authoritatively and unequivocally informed by several of her physicians and surgeons that there was no credible relationship between Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis (MAP) and the ongoing disease in her bowel. There WAS no room for debate and the implication was that by not heeding their advice, I was putting my child at death’s door.
    Imagine my surprise….
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%

    I don’t need to send you studies, Todd. You sound like such a reasonable person, how are you ever in your right mind defending the excrutiatingly small bit of evidence from the studies that you provided (tiny, tiny numbers of controls for unadjuvanted vs aduvanted )that the safety of children is insured? There is a reasonable giant question mark about these adjuvants and their activity in under 65’s (please show me data, Luna) but you all glowingly support the addition of them, willy-nilly, to the numerous new vaccines awaiting families and children.
    Expect some major resistance and much of it will come from your supporters. Your response is an appeal to ridicule. Jefferson might have found ridicule an appropriate response to attacks on reason, but other famous people had entirely different opinions about it. Maybe you have held the authoritative stage for too long and its time to give way to a more integrated idea of scientific knowledge.

  59. #59 Commander Data
    October 30, 2009

    @titmouse:

    Maybe a break from the webs for a day is in order.

    I plan to shut down my cognitive functions for a brief period each day. I hope to generate new internal visions.

  60. #60 Todd W.
    October 30, 2009

    @doctrinalfairness

    I don’t need to send you studies, Todd.

    Then you can’t make claims or intimate that squalene is harmful and still hope to be taken seriously. If you don’t have anything to support your concerns, then they are irrational, sorry to say. As far as I understand, squalene has been used in Europe, including in children’s vaccines, for roughly 10 years, with no major reports of serious AEs. Currently, then, it appears that squalene is a safe adjuvant. It’s going to take research showing that there is, indeed, increased risk of serious injury for me to change my mind.

    you want to add them willy-nilly to the bunches of new vaccines awaiting families and children.

    You seem to have me confused with someone else. Where have I said such? I expect that any substance for use in the U.S. should go through the proper trials. The studies I linked to were for Europe and I would not use them alone to support inclusion of MF59 in U.S. vaccines. However, they (among other studies) support the idea that in the general population, MF59 is safe for use in children. Your child’s case is not common, and, barring studies that included such populations in their studies, I probably would not recommend its use in that specific subgroup.

    As to your child, are you arguing that a vaccine adjuvant caused Crohn’s disease, or are you just concerned about the effect adjuvants might have in children with Crohn’s disease?

  61. #61 doctrinalfairness
    October 30, 2009

    Thanks for your concern about my sanity ,titmouse, but nowhere was my implication that you in particular had ridiculed. yes, i’m tired and sliding in focus because you seem to be ignoring something that an entire Governmental body found to be important. Are you certain that an increase in AE’s does not lead to systemic inflammation?

    And yes, eczema is yet another very common condition for which the medical community seems to have a very high tolerance for “unknown etiology”,(along with an astounding number of inflammatory conditions)and for which there is expensive treatment, but no cure.
    I, for one, am going to spend far more time and give far more credence to Chinese and Indian doctors who treat these illnesses with woo-woo herbs that are readily available to families who may be left with the collateral damage of your rigid certainties, but no medical care or financial resources to deal with them.

  62. #62 Frank Oswalt
    October 30, 2009

    @DoctrinalFairness (#256/258):

    Imagine my surprise….

    I can imagine you must have been extremely surprised at this study that says nothing about a relationship between Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis and Crohn’s disease.

    Here is a working link, which you were unable to provide:

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0001308

  63. #63 aratina cage
    October 30, 2009

    Re: Commander Data #241

    I am designed to exceed human capacity, both mentally and physically.

    I just added Brent Spiner’s Twitter log to my bookmarks under the tagname “twit”. First entry. Congratulations, twit. Don’t ruin your fucking name.

  64. #64 Commander Data
    October 30, 2009

    @doctrinalfairness,

    I, for one, am going to spend far more time and give far more credence to Chinese and Indian doctors who treat these illnesses with woo-woo herbs that are readily available to families who may be left with the collateral damage of your rigid certainties, but no medical care or financial resources to deal with them.

    The environmental anomalies may have stimulated certain rebellious insticts which could affect everyone’s judgment. Except mine, of course.

  65. #65 maya
    October 30, 2009

    —Recent polls show that only 12% of Germans definitely plan to be vaccinated against H1N1, with 19% saying that they will probably have the vaccine. —

    I´m from germany, as well. Saw a new statistik from the … i think it was the Max Planck Institute. The Numbers of People who will get an vaccination are sinking even more. We got different Problems in Germany not at least by the fact that we got two different vaccinations. One that was made to be given to the military and the politicans and one for us..they got different ingredients. So expecially parents are very confused, I understand them even if now politicans take ours to show us that its okay……
    So, I don´t know what you call the anti-vaccine, but I read a lot and I don´t think that some people you call so are anti-vaccine, also I see that Brent isn´t ( as he said a different times ) , I realy think he is your hook for this curious discussion. Because there are no facts that everybody knows already but you try to assure eachother in a way I dont like. Only if you be anti-flue-vaccation you have not to be anti at all.
    Everybody got his own rights to decide! So do! and do not try to assure others. thats what you blame spiner for, bot everybody with eyes see that you all try to more or less, not he does.
    Me for my share don´t want a vaccination. And NO I´m not completly anti-vaccination. I only think, that there was not enough time for a long run and I´m healthy and if I get it, I will looking for a doctor.Like all the other People, that already got over it in Germany. I never got a flue vaccination, only the important vaccinations.
    What if it is like the last swine flue 1976. there was such a panik and at the end more people died on the vaccination than on the impact of the flue, only because it was market to fast. No thanks.
    So decide for yourself and then do or let it. Whats is the problem?

  66. #66 Commander Data
    October 30, 2009

    @maya

    So decide for yourself and then do or let it.

    Sir, I believe I speak for everyone here when I say, to hell with our orders.

  67. #67 Todd W.
    October 30, 2009

    @maya

    What if it is like the last swine flue 1976. there was such a panik and at the end more people died on the vaccination than on the impact of the flue, only because it was market to fast. No thanks.

    Take a look at the link from my name and read the section on Influenza. I address the 1976 issue there.

  68. #68 maya
    October 30, 2009

    @data: I´m a madam 😉

    that was not an order that was a well-meant advice^^, becaus this discussion got no poin aside from …. I can´t see the point. I´m sorry. But I wonder about the word ani-vaxx, only because people don´t want that speciall vaccination.

  69. #69 DoctrinalFairness
    October 30, 2009

    Frank, once again I apologize, as I copied a bookmark without checking.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0001229
    http://freeola.com/crohns.php

    Todd, I can’t take any of you seriously either until you produce the studies showing that these adjuvants have been safely used on European children. They don’t exist.
    I have been satisfied with the explanation that many autoimmune diseases are genetic- but how does the MAP connection now fir in if there aren’t environmental triggers. Aren’t confounders convernient? Autoimmune disease kills young women,too.

    And I don’t want your unknown and untested adjuvant until you prove to me that the higher incidence of AE’s and raised levels of IL6,(which my brother in law was just given as an immune booster to treat his cancer), is warranted in children with already overcharged immune sytems that are attacking their own cells.
    Where are the studies that followed these European children that received vaccines with squalene-based adjuvants?

    Luna, from a PArlimentary debate about another vaccine I am wondering about, regarding the Yellow CArd system
    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmhansrd/cm090513/debtext/90513-0024.htm

    >I would like to finish by highlighting the inadequacies of our system for reporting adverse reactions to vaccines. The yellow card system operated by the MHRA is not mandatory so there is no obligation on medical staff to report reactions. Furthermore, the scheme has such a low public profile that many who suffer from a reaction after a vaccination are not aware that there is a system for reporting their experience. Indeed, I spoke to a school nurse today at random and she was unaware of the scheme. The yellow card scheme was described to me by a managing director of a pharmaceutical research company yesterday as

    “one of the weakest in Europe”.< Excuse my difficulties with your insolence.

  70. #70 Prometheus
    October 30, 2009

    “Dr. Jay” states:

    “Here’s the heart of the issue: This new H1N1 virus is here to stay and doctors should discuss vaccination with their higher risk patients. Low risk people will eventually be exposed to the disease and this might be the best year to get the “weakest” iteration of Swine Flu.”

    It appears that the previous statements by “Dr. Jay” about how getting vaccinated for the H1N1 (“swine”) influenza is stupid are being……modified. How Orwellian of you, “Dr. Jay”. Now he encourages doctors to “discuss” it with their “higher risk patients”.

    He also shows a sadly dated understanding of how the H1N1 (“swine”) influenza is doing so far. In my city, a total of 18 young adults and older children without pre-existing chronic illnesses (“low risk people”) have been placed on extracorporeal membrane oxygenators (“artificial lungs”) because of this “weakest iteration” of the H1N1 influenza. The number of people who have spent time “hooked to ventilators” is far larger.

    This is unprecendented – at least in my city. And the number of H1N1 (“swine”) influenza infections is climbing at an astounding rate. I seriously doubt that people will look back on this as the “weakest iteration” of the H1N1 influenza. Of course, I might be wrong about that – only time will tell (although it has already exceeded the 2007-2008 seasonal influenza – a “bad” one – in cases and hospitalizations).

    Another thing that “Dr. Jay” doesn’t seem to get is that the H1N1 influenza has been around since 1918 (and probably before that) – there have been numerous seasonal influenzas where the H1N1 type was prevalent. There is nothing especially dangerous about “H1N1” per se – each virus is unique in its abilities. If “Dr. Jay” had even the slightest understanding of how the influenza virus works, he would know that.

    I suspect that the ensuing months will see “Dr. Jay” continuing to “modify” his statements in a vain effort to erase the past. I have no problem with people who – looking at the data (something “Dr. Jay” is not good at) – change their minds and say, “I was wrong about that.”

    Being “Dr. Jay” means never having to say “I was wrong.” He is simply mis-understood (and we, of course, are being mean and uncivil).

    Prometheus

  71. #71 Joseph
    October 30, 2009

    If you go to http://trends.google.com and search for “cough,” for example, it’s clear that something is going on right now in October/November that is unusual for this time of year. I wonder what January will be like, and I wonder what Dr. Jay will say then.

    Try searching for “pneumonia” narrowed for specific states like Minnesota and Wisconsin. The trend is unbelievable.

    I think the Google data is analyzable if you want to come up with projections.

  72. #72 Jud
    October 30, 2009

    doctrinalfairness writes:

    I must be an idiot, because all of our very best science after 30 years of cancer research has just released two under-65 year old men to palliative care and hospice.

    “All of our very best science” lacks worth in your eyes because two individuals’ cancer wasn’t cured and your child had/has Crohn’s disease?

    Your standards of judgment are, errm, interesting. Forgive me for thinking as a consequence that the prospects for any reasonable interchange with you are unlikely.

  73. #73 T.M.
    October 30, 2009

    257- vaccination did not make the eczema worse because my child died from anaphylaxis. However, in retrospect, the pediatrician noticed a set back with the worsening of excema symptoms after every vaccination. The records show us coming in for an appt 1-4 days after every vaccination with a flare up of excema which would require more medication. That may be anecdotal to you, but if I had noticed the connection myself, I would not have made the terrible choice which killed my child.

    DF, if your child has an inflammatory condition and cannot get the vaccine without adjuvant, I would not even consider getting it. The studies have not been done to this date to show long term safety in children. It doesnt exist so no one can show you. The others that point out it has been used for 10 years in some countries does not mean the problems wont show up later. There are so many inflammatory conditions that dont show until well into our 20’s-50’s. Equally ridiculous is the ‘squalene is produced in the body’ comment. Alot of ‘shit’ is produced in the body, but it should not be injected back into the body. Some of the posters here can make you go crazy with their ‘pig-headed one-sided, wrongness’, and it is best to just Ignore sometimes. The questions can not be answered, and that doesnt make someone anti vax. You are right on this one, and you dont need the stress from this.

  74. #74 Commander Data
    October 30, 2009

    Re: doctrinalfairness, T.M.

    The clown can stay, but the Ferengi in the gorilla suit has to go!

  75. #75 Sid Offit
    October 30, 2009

    @Luna

    Speaking of which: I had a look at all the papers about squalene causing RA in rodents, and I think maybe you missed something — the lowest amount of squalene injected into the rodents is about double, in mg per kg of body weight (or in the rodents, mcg/gram of body weight really) than the highest dosage of squalene in a vaccine is for even a small child. I get that you don’t understand dose response, but please try to understand: amount makes a difference.
    —————————-
    You realize of course that due to a principal known as the ‘species scaling’ effect rats need much higher doses than do humans

    ——————————-
    Fluad is the most common vaccine which contains a squalene-based adjuvant —

    Fluad is for seniors
    http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/091021/national/flu_vaccine
    Until now there had been no licensed flu vaccine containing adjuvant in Canada, although adjuvants have been used for years in Europe in flu vaccines targeted at seniors.
    ——————————–
    it is most certainly not the only vaccine

    I’m aware of Fendrix, a hepatitis B shot, or as you would say jab. What are all the others? And which are being given to children?
    ———————

  76. #76 Jud
    October 30, 2009

    T.M. writes:

    I would not have made the terrible choice which killed my child.

    How sure are you of this?

    The reason I ask is the following – My wife lost her 17-year-old daughter in a car accident soon after we began dating, so I have perhaps a little bit of an idea of what you’ve gone through. Even though her daughter was living with her ex-husband at the time and she had no involvement whatever in the accident or the events leading to it, my wife still engaged in self-blame, which I suppose is unavoidable. It seemed, paradoxically, to comfort her to think she had some control over the situation even in that extremely negative way, rather than opening herself up to the terrifying prospect that there is the chance any of us could be subject to horrors in a random universe.

  77. #77 Antaeus Feldspar
    October 30, 2009

    @ Dangerous Bacon, 236

    So, Dr. Jay has 1) apparently made up a category of “extraordinary risk” patients for whom H1N1 vaccination is theoretically possible, but somehow he anticipates giving none of them protection. Then he comes in here and talks about “discussing” vaccination with a similarly nebulous “higher risk” group (“higher risk” sounds more encompassing than “extraordinary” risk, but we still have no idea what Dr. Jay is talking about).

    Oooooh, good catch! Sure sounds like Dr. Jay changes his tune depending on the audience he thinks he’s talking to. How are you suppose to “educate” yourself from an “educator” when you can’t tell whether he’s saying what he actually believes or simply spinning?

  78. #78 Luna_the_cat
    October 30, 2009

    DF:
    You appear to be completely unable to accept that you might be wrong about anything. You really, really don’t seem to be much of one for logical thought in evaluation of whether things are linked or indicate risk. You are completely impervious to all the studies which have been produced which demonstrate no increased risk in humans; they slide right off you like you were teflon-coated! You believe in this risk, however little you have reason to do so — I’d even go so far to say you are fixated on it to the exclusion of all else. And yet:

    I, for one, am going to spend far more time and give far more credence to Chinese and Indian doctors who treat these illnesses with woo-woo herbs that are readily available to families who may be left with the collateral damage of your rigid certainties, but no medical care or financial resources to deal with them.

    …you want to treat your child with medicine which HAS frequently been shown to be contaminated with heavy metals and REAL toxic substances.
    http://www.nelm.nhs.uk/en/NeLM-Area/News/2008—August/27/Heavy-metal-contamination-common-in-Ayurvedic-medicines/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_patent_medicine#Heavy_metal_contamination

    I actually started out reading these conversations with a certain sympathy for you, even though your original approach (of insulting everyone here and repeating anti-vaxx canards) kind of sucked. I’m still a bit sympathetic, because I understand the kind of desperation which having a sick child engenders. But you are still an idiot.

    maya:
    The real issue is that Spiner pointed people to Jay Gordon as a source of information about vaccinations; you probably don’t realise, Gordon has a long history here, and he gives out a lot of false information. People should absolutely have a right to choose, but it imperative that they have complete, truthful and accurate information with which to inform that choice — and what they consistently get from people like Gordon and the anti-vaccination crowd is misinformation, distortion, and fallacy. Making up your mind based on lies only hurts people. Spiner could have picked much better sources for people to educate themselves from, and the fact that he found Gordon credible says two things about him:
    His own understanding is incomplete, flawed and/or based on misinformation
    and
    He was too lazy to check on his facts.

    People here are not averse to people “thinking for themselves” — they ARE averse to seeing people swallow falsehoods and repeat them, to the detriment of public health and understanding.

    Science isn’t simply a “matter of opinion”, like literature criticism. The data point in a certain direction, or they don’t. Something works or it doesn’t. It is based on phenomena of the physical world, objective reality. And the fears which are spread even about the flu vaccine are all too often based on simple lies about the physical world. People who know the data, and are familiar with the biology, get deeply irritated about it. Why do you think we shouldn’t be? I don’t know what your field is or what you do, but if you saw people being lied to about a subject you knew, and potentially getting hurt by believing the lies, wouldn’t you be irritated?

  79. #79 Sid Offit
    October 30, 2009

    @Jane

    What is the prevalence of Gulf War Syndrome in European civilian populations that have received squalene-adjuvanted vaccines?

    Why argue from such a narrow group (Gulf War veterans) of squalene-adjuvanted vaccine recipients (assuming arguendo) instead of showing the similar number of Gulf War Syndrome pts in non-military populations of squalene-adjuvanted vaccine recipients?

    Good question. To put it simply adjuvants such as squalene stimulate the immune system. When given to the elderly – whose weaker immune system may need stimulation – the effect may be different than when given to military-aged persons whose immune systems are stronger in the 1st place. Think of the difference as giving Viagra to a 70 year old and an 18 year old

  80. #80 BCOHN
    October 30, 2009

    Prometheus- would you happen to have any basic H1N1 tracking info of the patients on respirators?…how many of them tested positive for H1N1? were any of them vaccinated? I have been very concerned with our cases here in GA. We also have several hospitalized cases, but only one of the ones tested was positive for swine flu. Our director is now asking for all patients to be tested again.

  81. #81 Sid Offit
    October 30, 2009

    @Todd

    As far as I understand, squalene has been used in Europe, including in children’s vaccines, for roughly 10 years
    ————————-

    I’m not saying your wrong but your listing these adjuvanted childrens vaccines in use for ten plus years would be helpful

  82. #82 Scott
    October 30, 2009

    Why should he bother? You’d simply ignore it.

  83. #83 Luna_the_cat
    October 30, 2009

    Sid Offitt: “Species scaling” is substance specific. Tell me, do you have evidence that rodents process squalene, specifically, differently from primates? Would you be aable to share the scaling factor? Because I cannot find this at all.

    Rodents have a higher tolerance for some amino acids. Last I checked, squalene was not an amino acid. It’s a hydrocarbon cholesterol precursor. If you have actual information to share that rodents have some higher level or higher tolerance to this substance, then share it.

  84. #84 Sid Offit
    October 30, 2009

    Jane

    What is the prevalence of Gulf War Syndrome in European civilian populations that have received squalene-adjuvanted vaccines? Why argue from such a narrow group (Gulf War veterans) of squalene-adjuvanted vaccine recipients (assuming arguendo) instead of showing the similar number of Gulf War Syndrome pts in non-military populations of squalene-adjuvanted vaccine recipients?

    Good question. To put it simply adjuvants such as squalene stimulate the immune system. When given to the elderly – whose weaker immune system may need stimulation – the effect may be different than when given to military-aged persons whose immune systems are stronger in the 1st place. Think of the difference as giving Viagra to a 70 year old and an 18 year old

  85. #85 Antaeus Feldspar
    October 30, 2009

    michael- what crap. we both know that it is just a matter of time until squalene based adjuvants are the “gold standard” of vaccines in the USA.

    See? How could anyone possibly think Docness is a crank?? Why, all she’s doing is “asking questions”! … well, and also jumping in with answers that are based, apparently, on psychic revelations.

  86. #86 titmouse
    October 30, 2009

    doctrinalfairness:

    I, for one, am going to spend far more time and give far more credence to Chinese and Indian doctors who treat these illnesses with woo-woo herbs that are readily available to families who may be left with the collateral damage of your rigid certainties, but no medical care or financial resources to deal with them.

    You’re angry that doctors don’t have good treatments for certain illnesses suffered by your loved ones. That’s understandable. But remember that doctors also have loved ones who get sick and die prematurely due to a lack of effective therapies. We’re all in the same boat, really.

    Most doctors would like to see at least two studies with appropriate controls showing that some novel treatment is safe and effective before they feel comfortable offering that therapy to their patients. I doubt you’re recommending that we accept therapies from China or India without such evidence, simply by virtue of their place of origin.

  87. #87 T.M.
    October 30, 2009

    @Jud, random in the universe?? no, I drove him there because I thought he needed the shot. It wasnt required. He didnt choose or drive himself. He got it, he reacted, he never left the hospital alive. Not exactly random. I wish I had your denial skills.

    @Luna, DF has Not been shown that adjuvants are safe in her instance with the evidence that has been given. I read it all because that is something I would like to know too. There has been no other major ‘fight’ in the posts so I dont know what wrong needs to be admitted to. Enough evidence for long term safety in children with many inflamm dz is Not there. Are you impervious to that?

  88. #88 DoctrinalFairness
    October 30, 2009

    Luna, the strength of your argument and your insults and all of the insults here hinge on data that you have failed to produce, because there isn’t any. Children in the slums of India aren’t going to have much of a choice beyond plant medicine, so your whole screed about heavy metals is mute. Hopefully there will be a body of work in herbal medicine that provides treatments for the pain of RA and Crohns, because rest assured no one here on this blog will devote 5 minutes to wondering or tracking autoimmune AE’s in the long term for children there for this or any other squalene based adjuvanted vaccine which the generous humanitarians will now distribute to eradicate disease.
    Accusing me of lies is pathetic in the face of the abysmal state of the research that expert scientists like you use to justify beyond a shadow of a doubt your certainties and the destruction of those who dare challenge them.
    T.M., thank you and I’m sorry that I called attention to your post, esp in lieu of the more unconscionable replies.
    Lovely to have all the answers to those of us with unfounded “concerns”. The attitude that you should accept the inconsistencies and “take it for the team” in the absence of data will only backfire for all of us and is as evil as any anti-vax argument.

  89. #89 Sid Offit
    October 30, 2009

    Luna

    I don’t have squalene-specific data but, since rats need generally higher doses of most drugs, I think the burden of proof is on you to show rodents process squalene in the same way as do humans. That is if you want to argue rats and humans should receive equivalent doses
    —————-
    Jane

    What is the prevalence of Gulf War Syndrome in European civilian populations that have received squalene-adjuvanted vaccines?

    18 year old soldiers and frail 75 year olds respond differently to adjuvants such as squalene

  90. #90 Spot the cat
    October 30, 2009

    ….meow.

  91. #91 Jud
    October 30, 2009

    Jud, random in the universe?? no, I drove him there because I thought he needed the shot. It wasnt required. He didnt choose or drive himself. He got it, he reacted, he never left the hospital alive. Not exactly random. I wish I had your denial skills.

    It would be hard to mistake my intentions more thoroughly than you apparently have.

    First, my “random” reference was to the extreme discomfort my wife had with the thought that bad things could happen at any moment that were beyond her control.

    Second, I’m not aware that I was trying to deny anything. I asked a question.

    Were you informed what component of the vaccine caused the allergic reaction? Anaphylaxis in reaction to vaccines is an exceedingly rare event, usually measured in fewer than 10 occurrences per million doses, unless there is a specific allergen present, such as the egg proteins we are warned about in flu shots.

    I must say that because of the extreme rarity of anaphylactic shock in response to vaccination, it is impossible for me to ascribe any blame at all to you for what occurred. It would be like blaming someone for failing to save a child from a meteorite strike.

  92. #92 Kausik Datta
    October 30, 2009

    TM @273:

    Equally ridiculous is the ‘squalene is produced in the body’ comment. Alot of ‘shit’ is produced in the body, but it should not be injected back into the body.

    You, sir, are engaging in false equivalences. The question of squalene being produced by the liver is relevant because it is released in the bloodstream. (Same bloodstream, you realize, where vaccine-associated products – antigens and adjuvants – end up, right?)

    Shit is produced in the body, yes, but it hardly reaches the bloodstream – and therefore, there is no question of injecting it in the bloodstream without serious consequences. Stool transplantation in the GI tract, on the other hand, is a known therapy for C. difficile associated diarrhea.

    Do try to find better arguments next time!

  93. #93 Kausik Datta
    October 30, 2009

    DF @287:

    Children in the slums of India aren’t going to have much of a choice beyond plant medicine, so your whole screed about heavy metals is mute.

    Your understanding of India, slums of India and medicinal system of India, seems to be quite at par with your understanding of the NHS and British medical system, as well as with your understanding of vaccines and adjuvants. Good job! Keep it up.

    Hopefully there will be a body of work in herbal medicine that provides treatments for the pain of RA and Crohns.

    Good that you have hope. But you also seem to have a very sketchy idea of what ‘herbal medicine’ is.

    You are, of course, still angry and hurting from injury to and/or loss of your loved one. Perhaps one day, with time, your anger may subside, and logic shall return to her throne.

  94. #94 Commander Data
    October 30, 2009

    Spot (#289), I find myself intrigued by your subvocal oscillations.

  95. #95 titmouse
    October 30, 2009

    We may not have prospective studies regarding vaccines in children with autoimmune disorders. But we have a post-vaccine surveillance system that’s quite sensitive, as illustrated by pick-up of the very slight increase in Guillan-Barre syndrome post swine flu vaccination in the 1970s.

    Severe allergic reactions such as anaphylaxis can happen in response to vaccines, medications, foods –many things. People die from eating peanuts. But that doesn’t mean peanuts are bad for everyone.

  96. #96 Luna_the_cat
    October 30, 2009

    T.M. — I haven’t time or inclination to go back and point out all the explicit links to studies which failed to find any correlation between antibodies to squalene and exposure to vaccines containing MF59; or the links to all the studies involving vaccines containing MF59; or the links to the studies failing to find that exposure to MF59 even provokes antibodies to squalene. They are there. You obviously aren’t paying attention to the fact that:
    if squalene-based adjuvants caused a higher rate of autoimmune disease like arthritis and lupus
    then
    in countries where these adjuvants have been in use
    we ought to see a rise in the rates of autoimmune diseases like arthritis and lupus
    regardless of whether or not it was being tracked as a possible side effect of flu vaccines
    .

    This. is. not. rocket. science.

    Second, since Sid as well as DF seem a bit logic-impaired, could I further point out that:
    The mf59-adjuvanted flu vaccines are targeted towards over-65s, because all flu vaccines are targetted at over-65s except for this rather unusual H1N1;
    this does not mean ONLY over-65s get these vaccines:
    the SAME vaccine is in use for EVERYONE WHO GETS FLU VACCINES here.
    Including infants.

    YES, infants who are vaccinated against flu in the UK, Italy and a number of other European countries get EXACTLY the same vaccine as over-65s.

    As do nurses, carers and other at-risk populations.

    Sheesh.

    Further, TM — things where DF was flat wrong: claiming that there is no vaccine adverse event tracking in the UK or Europe. Claiming that over-65s can’t get cancer treatment here, only palliative care. Those are not only wrong, they are idiotically, blatantly wrong. Has there been ANY indication that DF has backed down on this? Any sort of “ok, I was mistaken” even? No.

    Further vaccines used in infants which have MF59 as an adjuvant:
    ♦ Hep B —in use in the UK
    ♦ herpes simplex virus type 2 (HSV-2)
    ♦ several types of HIV-1 gp120 virus subunit vaccines to protect infants of infected mothers
    ♦ a combination Meningitidis B/C

    Beyond that I’m not going to bother spending the time, as I am entirely confident that it will be ignored anyway and I got other things to do.

  97. #97 JohnV
    October 30, 2009

    @titmouse

    And how much does Big Legume pay you to shill for peanuts?

  98. #98 Todd W.
    October 30, 2009

    @Luna

    Thanks for the list of vaccines using MF59.

  99. #99 Spot the cat
    October 30, 2009

    Oh hai Dayteh! I thot u wuz ded. Srsly.

    U brings mah cheezburger nao?

    Den I forgives u sain Iz not senteeyent an
    no haz comprehenshuns.

  100. #100 Sid Offit
    October 30, 2009

    Luna
    the SAME vaccine is in use for EVERYONE WHO GETS FLU VACCINES here.
    Including infants

    Fluad – Indications

    Active immunisation against influenza in elderly ≥65 yr, esp for those w/ increased risk of associated complications (ie patients affected by underlying chronic diseases including diabetes, CVS & resp diseases).
    ==========
    If they wanted everyone to have it they wouldn’t say ≥65 yr

    Fluad®, the only MF59TM-adjuvanted seasonal influenza vaccine, is LICENSED for active immunization against influenza in ELDERLY subjects
    =======================
    Further vaccines used in infants which have MF59 as an adjuvant:
    ♦ Hep B –in use in the UK

    Does it have a name?
    —————————–
    if squalene-based adjuvants caused a higher rate of autoimmune disease like arthritis and lupus
    then in countries where these adjuvants have been in use
    we ought to see a rise in the rates of autoimmune diseases like arthritis and lupus regardless of whether or not it was being tracked as a possible side effect of flu vaccines.

    Adjuvanted vaccines aren’t being used in children a group that reacts differently to adjuvants

    ======================
    Beyond that I’m not going to bother spending the time, as I am entirely confident that it will be ignored anyway and I got other things to do.

    Me too!

  101. #101 Luna_the_cat
    October 30, 2009

    …Drat.

    In all honesty, I need to self-correct, here.

    The MF59-adjuvanted Fluad vaccine is still in Phase III trials for the 3-36 month infant age range.

    The AS03-adjuvanted (also squalene-based) GSK flu vaccine Pandemrix has been approved for use in infants in Europe.

  102. #102 Luna_the_cat
    October 30, 2009

    Sid, one difference between us is that I actually show up with data in hand. All you do is sit around going “nyah, nyah, you have to try harder! I don’t believe you! That isn’t good enough! Go look this up for me!” and ignoring all the questions put to you…thus presenting us with noise and nothing at all of substance. When you get ignored it’s because there is really nothing else to do with you, short of mocking you savagely.

  103. #103 DoctrinalFairness
    October 30, 2009

    Luna,
    How perfect for you to claim as your single proof the hypothetical existence of accurate epidemiological studies of diseases which have reportedly wildly differing estimates of incidence and have enormous difficulties with confounding variables to start with, let alone in subjects who are OVER 65. I breathlessly await the studies. Novartis’ own literature states that squalene based aduvants were exclusively liscensed for use only in ages 65 and over. If they were used elsewhere, where is the data?
    And do tell how would you detect a rise in autoimmune
    disease with the Yellow Card system that a member of your own Parliment, Hon. Member for Reigate (Mr.Crispin Blunt) had to say this about in May, 2009.
    “I would like to finish by highlighting the inadequacies of our system for reporting adverse reactions to vaccines. The yellow card system operated by the MHRA is not mandatory so there is no obligation on medical staff to report reactions. Furthermore, the scheme has such a low public profile that many who suffer from a reaction after a vaccination are not aware that there is a system for reporting their experience. Indeed, I spoke to a school nurse today at random and she was unaware of the scheme. The yellow card scheme was described to me by a managing director of a pharmaceutical research company yesterday as

    “one of the weakest in Europe”.

    I’ll send Hon Member Blunt an email informing him that Luna has singlehandedly repaired the system in six months and I’ll remind him of his anti-vax lunacy.

    Kausik, I love India and her people and have a deeper understanding of the issues there than you might suspect. The throne of Logic does not reign in the slightest in either the scientific or the political or the economic community when it comes to the distribution of health resources, why pretend that it does here among the bastion f science defender either? Many of you are as guilty as logical fallacies as those your accuse.
    TM, my thoughts are with you and I hope that you find peace and solace. Thank you too, titmouse, jules, todd, credentialed, prometheus, many kind and patient people here-maybe someday there could actually be a dialogue that wasn’t all inflammatory horseshit- which I admittedly succumb to as well.

  104. #104 Commander Data
    October 30, 2009

    @DoctrinalFairness,

    Thank you too, titmouse, jules, todd, credentialed, prometheus, many kind and patient people here-maybe someday there could actually be a dialogue that wasn’t all inflammatory horseshit- which I admittedly succumb to as well.

    It is the struggle itself that is most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards.

  105. #105 Stu Pidasso
    October 30, 2009

    “I always appreciate being called a “known quack” because I think that being an unknown quack would be even more sad.”

    Yeah, that’s it. It’s better to be a big fresh steamin’ pile in the middle of a threshold, rather than an obscure little turd in a dark corner.

  106. #106 Moderately Unbalanced Squid
    October 30, 2009

    @ Commander Data (#227):

    I am superior, sir, in many ways.

    But not, apparently, in spelling. ;o)

  107. #107 Leah
    October 31, 2009

    @97 Chris, you are a lying b_t_h! I did not go away! I told you that your guess was wrong (wrong case, wrong date, wrong damn country). I told you the doctor and lawyer took care of all the reporting. I said dont forget the humans behind the data- that’s it! That is all you needed to know, but I know you are a sick, guilty person who needs to hurt other people to feel better. I said I was done with that particular thread.
    I am always here, and I am still disgusted by all of your comments. I have refrained from commenting about you until now because I have seen several other complaints about how ‘stupid’ you are from other people. Now, you seem to think that everything is fine for all children because the US doesnt have adjuvants. You have already admonished doctrinalfairness twice on this thread alone for worrying about adjuvants when (according to you) it doesnt matter because the US doesnt have it. I guess the millions of children in the rest of the world dont matter to you? Actually, I wont put words in your mouth like you do to every other poster who doesnt agree with you. Your comments, “why in bloody hell are you worried about squalene, which is not used in the USA?” and “or just remind her each and every time she uses the word “squalene” that it is not used in the USA”. It appears some people would like to make sure all the children in the world are safe and not just yours. Is it really such a crime to not want an immune stimulating adjuvant injected into a child when the prevention can be achieved without it? just stupid.
    The more acceptance, the more vaccinated, so you need to disappear! You make me truly sick.

  108. #108 Chris
    October 31, 2009

    Aw, poor baby. I was not the one who caught you in the lie.

    How about you give us the evidence that squalene is dangerous?

  109. #109 Interrobang
    October 31, 2009

    I currently have the H1N1 influenza — I didn’t get vaccinated because the vaccine only became available here at the start of this week, and my doctor advised me not to get the shot until I’d finished taking the antibiotics for the sinusitis I just had. I had been planning on getting vaccinated, because it seems like every time I get a bad influenza, it drops into sinusitis, pneumonia, or bronchitis. Igh.

    I seem to have a mild case, because I’m not having too much trouble breathing as long as I’m sitting upright or propped up in bed (which makes sleeping kind of interesting). So far, I’ve had a 2+ degree C fever, body aches of the sort that I refer to as the “total-body migraine,” cough, sore throat, muscle cramps, swollen nodes all over my body, headache, dizziness, fatigue/weakness, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and loss of appetite. No guarantee I won’t wind up with sinusitis, pneumonia, or bronchitis, though…

    Folks, you really don’t want this, if for no other reason than puking your guts out isn’t anybody’s idea of a good time. If you can get vaccinated in time to have a good immune response before you get infected, do it.

    Anyone urging people off the vaccine is, frankly, objectively pro-misery, and I cough in your general direction. >:(

  110. #110 Calli Arcale
    November 1, 2009

    “Is it really such a crime to not want an immune stimulating adjuvant injected into a child when the prevention can be achieved without it? just stupid.”

    Leah, the alternative is to do what is done with the American flu vaccines — include more antigen. In either case, the goal is to achieve a certain amount of immune response. Whether this is done using adjuvants or not is immaterial, at least as far as how stimulated the immune system is by a vaccine.

    The only drawbacks to using more antigen are: greater risk of side-effects from the antigen (which is, by nature, less well understood than the adjuvant), lower production rate of vaccines (which means greater risk of shortages), and higher price (which means some folks won’t be able to get it even if they want it).

    If you’re okay with that, and it seems that certain policy makers in the US are okay with it, then, well, I guess this is where we part company. Because I, for one, am not okay with it. Adjuvants make the vaccines safer, cheaper, more abundant, and more effective. It saddens me greatly that we can’t get adjuvanted flu vaccines in the US; it’s the main reason why I still have not been able to get an H1N1 vaccine, despite being asthmatic. It’s also why we have no real chance of getting herd immunity, which means the immunocompromised are caught between a rock and a hard place with this one.

  111. #111 Marion Delgado
    November 3, 2009

    It saddens me greatly that we can’t get adjuvanted flu vaccines in the US; it’s the main reason why I still have not been able to get an H1N1 vaccine, despite being asthmatic.

    Same here. Asthma and bronchitis and a healthy fear of pneumonia, got the seasonal vaccine early and can’t get H1N1.

    Thanks for nothing, Witch-Hunters of Phlogiston.

  112. #112 katy
    November 14, 2009

    I’m surprised that no one mentions the bigger issue that anti-vaccination is just a part of. Its the issue of reliable sources of information. It used to be that one went to the library, got a research journal, looked up something that was (usually) reliably peer-reviewed, and got some answers. It used to be the scientists refrained from making opinions in non-peer review journals.

    The internet has ruined all of this. People with not science training are now required to determine a good scientific argument, if they have even that much training. I can tell you, its almost impossible to look at peer review journals these days (they all require steep fees), and the past 9 years have trashed the peer review system, with people lying about study results.

    I’m seriously beginning to hate the internet, but its the way were disseminating information these days. And its a shallow, shallow pool of information!

  113. #113 navi
    December 1, 2009

    so totally did not read all the comments. and i’m kind of wondering if mr. spiner is laughing his butt off at all of this. I used to follow him (stopped after purging my twitter followers, because there was just too much). He tends to tweet jokes quite frequently.

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