Respectful Insolence

The other day, I wrote about an unfortunate young woman named Desiree Jennings, who claimed to have had a rare neurological disorder known as dystonia as a complication of being vaccinated for seasonal flu, when it appears that her condition is likely to have at least a strong psychogenic component and is unlikely to be due to the vaccine. Despicably, the anti-vaccine group Generation Rescue tripped over itself to exploit Jennings’ case and use it as “proof” that vaccines are dangerous and, by extension, that their fantastical claims that vaccines cause autism are plausible. Even after questions were raised about Jennings’, yesterday Generation Rescue announced that it’s still supporting her and has even issued a press release saying so. They’ve even provided a link to a search of the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database for dystonia reported after vaccination.

That gave a blogger named Rene Najera at the Baltimore Disease Prevention Examiner an idea. Indeed, he may have found Jennings’ entry in the VAERS database, and, if it is indeed Jennings, it strongly suggests that her dystonia was not related to the flu vaccine. How did he do it? It was ridiculously simple. He noted that, as Generation Rescue claims, there are indeed 67 entries for dystonia in the VAERS database. However, only five of them since 1990 occurred after the flu vaccine. That’s a small enough number that allowed easy perusal of individual records after the initial search. One record appears to fit Jennings’ case. It described someone aged 18-29 who was vaccinated for seasonal flu in August and developed problems in September that led him or her to be admitted to rule out Guillan-Barré syndrome, lupus, or MS:

Pt. began experiencing difficulty walking, chills, sweats, tremors and vivid dreams with difficulty sleeping. She began having headaches described as a “”cold spot”" on the back of her head, had subsequently developed a stutter, but was able to speak clearly if she whispered. Her symptoms persisted and progressed to erratic movements of the toe, intermittent uncontrolled blinking, difficulty focusing, uncontrolled shaking, cold feet and sharp pains in the legs. Upon this admission the plan was to rule out GBS, MS, malignancy, Lyme and MG. Pt. noted to have dystonia, speech dysfunction, gait dysfunction, anxiety, SOB, photophobia, tinnitus in the left ear, and increase in appetite, a 2 lb. weight loss. It was also noted that the symptoms were worsened by warm water, especially at the knees. The admitting neurologist felt that there was a strong psychogenic component to the symptomology, and made a final diagnosis of weakness.

Is this Desiree Jennings’ VAERS database entry? It’s the only one that fits the timeline of what has been reported in the press about her. It is also the only entry in 2009 reporting dystonia after a vaccine. If it is, it’s seeming more and more likely that Jennings probably doesn’t have a “true” dystonia, but rather one with a significant psychogenic overlay. Once again, I have to emphasize that “psychogenic” does not mean “mentally ill” or “crazy.” Nor does it mean that she can control her movements or that she is not deserving of sympathy for her condition, even if she deserves criticism for how she is allowing her condition to be used by a band of ideologues who want to undermine our vaccination program based on their quasi-religious fervor that vaccines are evil.

Comments

  1. #1 Monado, FCD
    November 5, 2009

    I’m not familiar with psychogenic. Is it like psychosomatic?

  2. #2 Grendel
    November 5, 2009

    Well that is another weakness of VAERS to chalk up – too easy to identify individuals and reveal personal information, especially when they go to the media and broadcast their condition and the fact that there is a VAERS report.

  3. #3 Grendel
    November 5, 2009

    I may be wrong (and probably am, so mea culpa) but I understood psychosomatic to have a component of physiological change that results from the psychological origins whereas psychogenic is a little broader in that the symptoms may manifest without physiological changes or origin.

  4. #4 Leilah
    November 5, 2009

    Nice detective work! Thanks for passing it along. =)

  5. #5 attack_laurel
    November 5, 2009

    Once again, I have to emphasize that “psychogenic” does not mean mentally ill or “crazy.” that she is “faking” it because of psychiatric issues.

    Fixed that for you. :)

    It’s such a little thing, but because the term “crazy” is frequently used by non-professionals in a perjorative way, it makes life a lot more stigmatized for people with mental/psychiatric disabilities. We not only study therapeutic outcomes, we also study life outcomes for our cohorts, and what comes out again and again is that a supportive, non-judgemental environment makes a huge difference in the ability of people with real psychiatric disorders (often as a result of brain injury) to manage their lives.

    I’m not criticizing, honest. I love your blog. It’s just my area, and I’ve been looking at outcomes for 10 years now, and social stigma is a big barrier not only to adjusting better to life, but a huge factor in whether patients seek help or not.

    That said, this case fascinates me, because I now want to know whether she was pro- or anti-vax before she had the shot, and now I’m concerned that the attention she is getting from the anti crowd is going to add extra stress which will interfere with any useful therapies she might be able to get. A thing is changed as soon as we observe it, eh?

  6. #6 MI Dawn
    November 5, 2009

    OK, this puzzles me:

    “Pt. noted to have …increase in appetite, a 2 lb. weight loss.”

    She had an increase in appetite and a 2 lb weight loss? Do they mean a decrease in appetite with weight loss or increase in appetite and weight gain?

    Except with diabetes I’ve never heard of increased appetite and weight loss. So those 2 reported symptoms seem very strange.

    In fact, the reported symptoms are quite mixed, with both measurable and reported symptoms listed together. Since I’ve never seen or filed a VAERs report, I don’t know how they look. I suppose there is one category for all symptoms, rather than, as per most medical documentation, separate areas for measurable symptoms and patient reported symptoms. Just looks weird to me (Note: I am NOT questioning whether she had these symptoms, just the order and how they are reported).

    Orac, as a physician: would you report the symptoms in that order or split into “patient reports” and “exam shows”? Maybe my midwifery instructors were just more anal?

  7. #7 Bob O'H
    November 5, 2009

    Once again, I have to emphasize that “psychogenic” does not mean mentally ill or “crazy.” that she is “faking” it because of psychiatric issues.

    Fixed that for you. :)

    Are you saying that Orac is suggesting she is crazy? why else would you strike that word out?

  8. #8 attack_laurel
    November 5, 2009

    BobO’H:

    I’m saying that using the word “crazy” (commonly used as a perjorative word) to inform people that psychogenic is not the same as psychiatric, reinforces the idea that mental illness is different, and less defensible, i.e., her illness is not one of those problems, where she’s just crazy.

    It’s dismissive, and adds to the narrative of mental illness as in a separate class from all other illnesses, which it is not. Illness is illness. I appreciate the need to define psychogenic from psychiatric, because the two are not the same, and are treated with different therapies, but it doesn’t need to be done as if being mentally ill is less acceptable of sympathy.

    It’s not something most people think about, and I deeply respect Orac and his writing, so I hoped he would consider the viewpoint of someone who sees the effect that “othering” mental illness has. It’s about respect for all illness, not political correctness.

  9. #9 llewelly
    November 5, 2009

    Monado, FCD | November 5, 2009 2:14 AM:

    I’m not familiar with psychogenic. Is it like psychosomatic?

    Monado, please read Steven Novella’s on psycogenic illness: It’s All In Your Head .

  10. #10 Anthro
    November 5, 2009

    @Bob O’H

    Why are you so defensive? I’ve noticed this before on this blog. Some seem to think that Orac can do no wrong, or not choose a word as well as he might, or accept any criticism no matter how well-intended. Orac, himself readily admits when he blows it (as in being all wrong about Steve Jobs diagnosis), so why are you jumping onto this comment which was very well explained by the poster?

  11. #11 MikeMa
    November 5, 2009

    If Ms Jennings was THIB-Sue or cooler level of ant-vax, she wouldn’t have gotten the shot in the first place. That she got it early (Aug) speaks to a proactive desire to avail herself of this vaccine. I suspect she was lured by the desperate asses at GenR to prop up their movement. They were probably disappointed it was only the seasonal shot and not H1N1.

  12. #12 Edw
    November 5, 2009

    @6 Most likely all her extra jerking motions has increased her metabolism. I eat alot, but I also move alot so I still lose weight. I do not have hyperthyroidism or cancer, but I have seen increased appetite and weight loss with those too. Not uncommon.

  13. #13 sailor
    November 5, 2009

    since the brain is a physiological organ, it seems to me that any psychogenic disorder has physiological components. To deny that is to get into a kind of dualism.

  14. #14 Rene Najera
    November 5, 2009

    Thanks for the props. I have Jenny McCarthy’s group. They challenged the press to go look at VAERS, the rest was just deductive reasoning (something the anti-vaccine groups seem to lack). BTW, I don’t consider myself a blogger, per se… Just an Epidemiologist fighting a world of conspiracy theories when it comes to Public Health, and writing is my tool. Thanks again!

  15. #15 Jim
    November 5, 2009

    I guess what I don’t get about finding offense in Orac’s use of “crazy” is that, first of all, he puts it in quotes. Secondly, he lists it first, then a clinical term, linking them with “or,” implying – thought not directly stating – that these are two separate categories of stuff. And considering that he’d just said that people shouldn’t denigrate her condition, I don’t think it’s at all odd that he should use a denigrating term when describing what her condition isn’t.

  16. #16 Locasta
    November 5, 2009

    Here she is on Youtube. Doesn’t look like any neurological illness I’ve ever seen.

  17. #17 Locasta
    November 5, 2009

    Sorry- guess I should have read your original post first. Didn’t realize you’d posted the video.

  18. #18 Scott
    November 5, 2009

    @2, the first thing I thought about was whether or not there are ethical issues with using that information and access to VAERs to look up somebody.

    Issues with privacy and security notwithstanding, that we can do something doesn’t mean we still ought not to do it.

    Or do people waive any right to privacy when submitting an entry to VAERs?

  19. #19 Prometheus
    November 5, 2009

    Scott,

    The information reported to VAERS is “anonymized” – the patient’s name, address and any other unique identifiers are removed – prior to being placed in the public database. The date of the report, the patient’s age and sex and other information (such as the vaccine used, the symptoms, etc.) are still publicly available, but they are not enough to identify a particular person.

    However, when somebody says that they had a vaccine-related adverse event at a particular time, had specific symptoms and filed a VAERS report, it is sometimes possible to go back and deduce which VAERS report is theirs.

    This is not a violation of privacy. Ms. Jennings already told us about her medical problems, freely gave her name and all the particulars she wished to share with the media. If someone then goes back and finds her specific VAERS record using the information she freely provided….well, it is a public database – says so right on the website.

    Ms. Jennings – and anyone else filing a VAERS report – is protected by solid confidentiality regulations, but those only apply to the VAERS personnel. If Ms. Jennings wishes to make her private medical information public record (on national television), then she becomes a legitimate subject for public discussion. The VAERS database can neither confirm nor deny that this record is that filed about Ms. Jennings, but she gave enough information – on national television – to make it almost certain that it is hers.

    Bottom line – if you want to preserve the privacy of your medical information, don’t discuss it on television.

    Prometheus

  20. #20 katydid13
    November 5, 2009

    I would swear this woman was on DC local news pratically waving her VAERS around. Then the headline was doctors agree it may be related. Then there were two doctors talking about VAERS and correlation not = equaling causation.

    In this particular case I think she’s made her VAERS fairly public.

  21. #21 Anne
    November 5, 2009

    Desiree Jennings reports that she’s making great improvement under treatment from Orac’s old friend Dr. Rashid A. Buttar. According to Desiree’s blog, Dr. Buttar has diagnosed her with “a number of conditions including but not limited to Acute, Viral Post Immunization Encephalopathy and Mercury Toxicity with secondary respiratory and neurological deficits.” She says that the results of his treatments have been amazing – she can now walk and talk normally throughout most of the day.

    A few weeks ago, the North Carolina medical board filed charges against Dr. Buttar for improper diagnosis and treatment of mercury toxicity. This high-profile case should help him defray the cost of his defense.

  22. #22 Rebecca2
    November 5, 2009

    She has her own website, she is a marketing major and has corporate sponsorship. But I’m sure it’s all unrelated.

    http://www.desireejennings.com/mystory.php

    Oh, and she’s all better now anyway:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD1BAxVnFdc&feature=player_embedded

  23. #23 jypsy
    November 5, 2009

    “She has since been diagnosed by her treating physician, Dr. Rashid A. Buttar, with a number of conditions including but not limited to Acute, Viral Post Immunization Encephalopathy and Mercury Toxicity with secondary respiratory and neurological deficits.”

    http://www.desireejennings.com/blog/

  24. #24 Facepalm
    November 5, 2009

    Dr. Rashid A. Buttar?! This guy? Vaccine injury crank extraordinaire? Oh goody. She’s in great hands…

  25. #25 Facepalm
    November 5, 2009

    Dr. Rashid A. Buttar?! This guy? Vaccine injury crank extraordinaire? Oh goody. She’s in great hands…

  26. #26 Anne
    November 5, 2009

    According to Dr. Buttar, the Generation Rescue people brought Ms. Jennings to him, and he cured her dystonia in 36 hours with chelation. He says that this dystonia is the same thing that autistic kids have, although autism doesn’t really exist. Robert Scott Bell podcast with Dr. Buttar, “EXCLUSIVE – Flu Shot Victim Desiree Jennings CURED of “untreatable” Neurological Disorder,” here:
    http://askrsb.podbean.com/2009/11/04/exclusive-flu-shot-victim-desiree-jennings-cured-of-untreatable-neurological-disorder/

  27. #28 titmouse
    November 5, 2009

    Pt. noted to have …increase in appetite, a 2 lb. weight loss.”

    Res ipsa loquitur.

  28. #29 brian
    November 6, 2009

    what a despicable post,All it needs is for Orac to claim she was shamming. You claim Generation Rescue is despicable…when it is YOU. Had she gone to you for help, she be dead by now.

  29. #30 brian
    November 6, 2009

    letsw here was Desiree has to say, not an arrogant mouthpieece like’ orac’, who doesnt even have the guts to use his own name.
    http://www.desireejennings.com/

    and thank god for Generation Rescue, and Dr Buttar…they helped her when peoplem like Orac shed crocodile tears and claim vacine are safe…Whos paying you Orac?

  30. #31 Uncle Glenny
    November 6, 2009

    Brian,

    As an experiment, I googled “orac” with another term off this page and found not only his real name but a couple pictures.

    Heh.

  31. #32 brian
    November 6, 2009

    ‘A few weeks ago, the North Carolina medical board filed charges against Dr. Buttar for improper diagnosis and treatment of mercury toxicity. This high-profile case should help him defray the cost of his defense.’

    Yes, in the US, curing the sick with alternatives has long been a crime, as Dr Max gerson found out decades ago, when he was curing cancer.

    The dunces are angry and embittered at DR Buttars success…thats why they feel the need to destroy him…
    Desiree should sue the medical profession,..Its the only way to keep these monsters in line.

  32. #33 MI Dawn
    November 6, 2009

    @brian: if you actually READ Orac’s post, and Dr Novella’s post, you will see both of them point out that psychogenic illnesses often recover spontaneously over time. So it is doubtful that Ms Jenning’s recovery is due to quack medicine.

    Dr Gerson’s treatments were PROVEN ineffective by medical studies. Dr Butter’s treatments have not helped anyone either. If they really did, then medical studies could replicate his cures and it wouldn’t be alternative medicine, it would be science-based medicine.

    And…you said: “All it needs is for Orac to claim she was shamming. You claim Generation Rescue is despicable…when it is YOU. Had she gone to you for help, she be dead by now.”
    No reputable medical doctor said she was shamming, and to imply that is despicable of YOU. EVERY doctor said she had a problem. NO ONE denied that. And, from her own reports, her illness was never life-threatening, so I doubt if she’d gone to Orac, or another professional she’d “be dead by now.”

    Last comment: if you are really nosy, it’s not hard to find out who “Orac” is. He posts under his own name on another popular medical blog. But trolls rarely show up there, where they will have to prove their words to a lot of scientifically-minded people. However, as far as I am concerned, it is his right to blog under a pseudonym and I won’t use his real name on this blog. (Yes, I do know who Orac is. We have met.) Others, i.e. Jay Gordon, will use his real first name.

    (BTW–good morning, Orac. Doing some cool research at work!)

  33. #34 brian
    November 6, 2009

    Its strange how Desiree has only recovered under Dr Buttars care, while EVERYONE was saying her condition was PERMANENT.
    Your ‘spontaneous recovery’ is the real quack idea. So why do you and your ‘doctors’ feel the need to invent such a brazen and unfounded idea? Why didnt her doctors says: relax my dear: you will recover spontanously!They never said that to her….

    His is Desiree before:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4MIm1mB7GM
    http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/health/dpgo_101509_celebs_reach_out_to_desiree_jennings_flu_shot_reaction_4065808

    NOTE:
    ‘According to media reports, Ms. Jennings was suffering from a medical condition known as dystonia. Contrary to reports from doctors on TV who claim that a vaccine could never cause dystonia, the condition dystonia is listed in the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System as a possible side effect from vaccines and there are 67 reports of dystonia in the system. Any journalist could validate these 67 reports.’
    http://www.generationrescue.org/desiree_jennings.html
    http://www.drbuttar.com/blog/?p=656

    and after:
    http://www.desireejennings.com/
    a vast improvement…
    ===================
    for those not blinded, its plain she was cured by Dr Buttar…sorry…

  34. #35 brian
    November 6, 2009

    Dawn: 2 lies in two sentences:

    ‘Dr Gerson’s treatments were PROVEN ineffective by medical studies. Dr Butter’s treatments have not helped anyone either. ‘

    Gersons work was never ‘proven’ ineffective…it was never investigated. And you nevr bothered to speak to those who were cured by Gerson.
    Dr Buttars work has helped Desiree, who you treat as a head case…None of her doctors said she would recover spontaneously, or held that hope out to her. Thats why she gladly accepted Dr Buttars help., a man you call a quack…

    Not life threatening? How do you know on what reports? Do youwant to see her die, then say: oh ist WAS life threatening.

    They and yoiuy didnt dare say she was slumming…thats because you have cleverer idea: its ‘psychogenic’! that is all in the mind.

    Every doctor said she had a problem…how do you know? Did you ask them all?

    Thanks to Dr Buttar, she is neither dead nor handicapped not ‘shamming’. under your ‘care’ she would still be a psychogenic’ case.

    ‘if you actually READ Orac’s post, and Dr Novella’s post, you will see both of them point out that psychogenic illnesses often recover spontaneously over time. So it is doubtful that Ms Jenning’s recovery is due to quack medicine.’

    Thank god she had the good sense to ignore the real quacks…the ones who made her ill. Her interviews will make people think twice before listening to the real quacks.

    SHAME ON YOU! Yourem a liar and a fraud!

  35. #36 brian
    November 6, 2009

    ‘Apparently, her condition worsened and she went into convulsions and respiratory failure. She was near death when she was rushed to a clinic that uses naturopathic treatments like chelation therapy.’

    http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-351032

    She was near death…and NOT spontaneously recovering…Another doctor lie having its coffin nailed shut.

  36. #37 Rene Najera
    November 6, 2009

    Brian, who is “Yourem”?

    So, Buttar’s publicity of this case will help him defray the costs of complaints brought forth by HIS patients. No financial conflict of interest there, right? It’s only Big Pharma that does things for money.

    Exceptional claims, but no exceptional evidence. Fail.

  37. #38 Jeffry
    November 6, 2009

    Basically Orac is giving more credence to the VAERS report than the doctors at Fairfax and John Hopkins who diagnosed her. How he is measuring who is ‘more’ correct is unknown.

    The logic premise is dizzying. But, it’s to be expected if he wants to continue to assist in propping up the industry and propaganda for the flu shot. No matter. Damage control on this topic is to be expected.

    http://vactruth.com/2009/11/02/recipe-that-fosters-influenza-vaccine-interest-and-demand/

    What is promising, though, is we at least have Orac looking at VAERS now. It’s a step in the right direction.

  38. #39 brian
    November 6, 2009

    Guess what Rene…Desiree WONT be complaining! Shes got her life back.
    Big pharma kills for money…while sucking in the stupid doctors as to how good and safe their drugs are.
    If you wont look, you wont see the evidence…I conclude yoi must be one of those stupid and as we now know dangerous doctors…

  39. #40 JohnV
    November 6, 2009

    I like that brian has developed a rage-induced case of fat fingers.

  40. #41 brian
    November 6, 2009

    john…you must be thinking of a vaccine induced illness…I dont use vaccines, and thanks to Desirees bravery, sure wont now. So no fat fingers.

  41. #42 Fielding J. Hurst
    November 6, 2009

    If VAERS was even done at all.

  42. #43 T. Bruce McNeely
    November 6, 2009

    while EVERYONE was saying her condition was PERMANENT.

    That’s a flat-out lie, trollboi.

  43. #44 Rene Najera
    November 6, 2009

    Brian, who is Yoi? And why is Yoi stupid? Do you personally know Yoi? Have you had a cup of coffee with Yoi? Like you accuse Orac and others of making a diagnosis from far away, how different is it from you saying Yoi is stupid without knowing Yoi?
    (I like Yoi, myself.)

  44. #45 Daniel J. Andrews
    November 6, 2009

    I want to live in brian’s world. I’m getting tired of having to research things and ensure what I say is backed up by facts. I just want to give full vent to my emotions and make up things as I go along. No need for long hours of research, no need for years of study, no need to read and reread to see if my arguments are internally consistent, no need to examine studies and look for possible biases, bad stats and other flaws. No need to actually post a science link that backs up my claim.

    Instead I can be an instant expert with no effort, and if I feel it is right, it must be right. It is Colbert’s truthiness given full expression. Heck, I won’t ever have to wade through another science paper again. If I need to know what it says I’ll just wait till someone I agree with tells me what it says.

  45. #46 Dedj
    November 6, 2009

    The VAERS report appears to have been submitted by a clinician, or at least a clinical secretary, and is based on records culled from several sessions.

    The admissal assessment is likely to have been forwarded to the Fairfax and John Hopkins team (assuming the VAERS report isn’t from one of them, and assuming the admission reports weren’t from one of them) who would have used the reports to inform further investigation and diagnosis.

    We currently have no evidence to suggest the resultant diagnosis is in conflict with the opinion of the admitting neurologist. Even with making the two unsupported assumptions above (that the admitting neurologist wasn’t one of the “Dr’s say”), there is no evidence to suggest that the VAERS report is incorrect.

    In addition, Orac has expressly not called her a sham.

  46. #47 ceejayoz
    November 6, 2009

    Who the hell notices a 2 pound weight loss? One big bowel movement and it’s accounted for.

  47. #48 Dedj
    November 6, 2009

    Hard to say, but she may have been weighed during appointments.

    2lbs doesn’t sound much, especially not with the symptoms she has been claiming.

  48. #49 brian
    November 6, 2009

    Daniel said:’ want to live in brian’s world. I’m getting tired of having to research things and ensure what I say is backed up by facts.’

    welcome to daniels world: a world of make believe, where he says he is interested in the ‘facts’ while quietly avoiding them. A world where Big Pharma is caring, doctors are open minded, and the government is run for the people and by the people. ..
    YOI!!!

    Meanwhile, desiree is still an embarrassment..in that she got better thru the efforts of a maverick physician. I can here Daniel and the gang wailing and gnashing from here!

    YOI!

    McNeely is right…her condition was being touted as permanent, while the doctors and shadowy BIG PHARMA denied any responsibility.

    YOI..YOI!

  49. #50 brian
    November 6, 2009

    dedj: ‘In addition, Orac has expressly not called her a sham.’

    you mean he expressly avoided the word…

  50. #51 Gilgamesh
    November 6, 2009

    @Brian, calm down son, you seem to be internalizing this discussion beyond what is good for your health. Your blood pressure must be through the roof.

    If your goal is being read and your points considered on this or any blog, don’t make personal attacks and present your ideas in a calm and rational manner.

    What does ‘YOI’ mean?

  51. #52 Dedj
    November 6, 2009

    “you mean he expressly avoided the word…”

    No, in the original thread, he actually said:

    “Don’t get me wrong. I do feel sorry for Desiree Jennings, whether her dystonia is psychogenic (by far the most likely possibility) or not (far less likely…..) ,…… “Psychogenic” does not mean she is crazy or mentally ill, and does not mean she is faking,”

    At worst, he can be read as having said the exact opposite of what you have attributed to him.

    At best, he wasn’t that clear on it.

    Whichever way you look at it, it doesn’t look good for either your reading skills or your honesty.

    Please be kind to yourself and refrain from posting without substantiation.

  52. #53 T. Bruce McNeely
    November 6, 2009

    McNeely is right…her condition was being touted as permanent, while the doctors and shadowy BIG PHARMA denied any responsibility.

    Trollboi, who is telling you that her condition was permanent – the voices inside your head?

  53. #54 brian
    November 6, 2009

    Bruce:
    you must not be able to read:

    http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&rlz=1R2TSHN_enAU339&q=desiree+jennings+permanent+youtube&meta=&aq=f&oq=

    supposedly incurable:
    http://askrsb.podbean.com/2009/11/04/exclusive-flu-shot-victim-desiree-jennings-cured-of-untreatable-neurological-disorder/

    You will know she has been set on the road to a complete cure by Dr Rashid Buttar..NOT by any of the usual quacks.To them she was incurable/untreatable.

  54. #55 brian
    November 6, 2009

    Yoi! Gilgamesh..This is a significant story…

    1. it shows how vaccine can induce brain damage
    2. Desirees going public has meant many people are not aware of the potential dangers, and will think twice about using a vaccine.
    3, It draws attention to the work of Dr Buttar
    4. It shows ‘incurable’ man made illness can be remedied by natural means.
    5. It shows in the response of people like Orac, that many are addicted to the ideolology of orthodox medicine and respond violently and sardonically whenever this ideology is threatened.

    YOI!

  55. #56 T. Bruce McNeely
    November 7, 2009

    Brian:
    I looked at your references.
    Youtube videos?
    Give me a break.

  56. #57 shaddap
    November 7, 2009

    brian –

    Calm down, Quackboy – your toxins are showing.

  57. #58 brian
    November 7, 2009

    sorry, guys, the rage-induced fat fingers has abated for now. I now realize the errors of my ways.

    Oh, that we should be so lucky.

  58. #59 Carl
    November 7, 2009

    You know every time I see someone use the phrase “BIG PHARMA” and “alternative medicine”, I think of the people who say that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS. Medicine is science. You don’t get to make up your own facts.

    If this woman was sick and was cured, then let her doctor publish the evidence. Lets see if it reproducible. Lets cure all those other people that have been “injured by vaccines”.

    I’ve got a feeling this is BS. But you can shut my mouth by publishing EVIDENCE.

  59. #60 jennifer
    November 10, 2009

    I did respond to the last insolence post but it disappeared. Yes, I did make some suggestions to improve the pass that has been vaccine “safety.” For one thing the fox shouldn’t be guarding the henhouse. CDC shouldn’t control both recommend of schedule and surveillance of safety. Shit, my daughter can’t take drivers ed and testing from the AMA since, as the lady on the phone says, “that would be seen as a conflict of interest.” Lame things like giving girls Gardasil and then “control” groups aluminum to compare effects should not happen. More real studies on effects (yes, like Hewitsons) should be done BEFORE giving vaccines to babies. Hell, there’s plenty of conflict of interest on the pro-vacc side and you know that.
    How’s this for insolence? I’d rather be a little Darwinian and say survival of the fittest is better than all this collateral damage for the herd. Take MMR. Anecdotally, I realize very unacceptable to you all, many parents see a downslide in development after this live vaccine (no thim). I’ ve had measles, mumps and I’m just fine. Most are. CHicken pox is another relatively begnign disease. Many children are seem to have an encephalitic reaction after vaccines ultimately diagnosed as autism.
    Please stop inventing reasons to give vaccines. You’re killing us with kindness.
    Jessica-my grandmother had guillaume-barre after her flu shot in the /70′s -paralyzed for a few months in hospital. Not for me, thanks.
    Hep b to babies is just crazy. We don’t do it in Canada other than B.C. is introducing “Infantrix”. Stoneybrook hospital did a study that found infant boys given hep b had three times the autism compared to boys who did not have hep b series at birth.
    Final thought: where does all this vaccinating end? Should we be doing it in the womb? Got to go now. I work with 6 autistic boys all day for the last few weeks. It’s hard work. Thanks for letting me post.

  60. #61 Chris
    November 10, 2009

    jennifer:

    Shit, my daughter can’t take drivers ed and testing from the AMA since, as the lady on the phone says, “that would be seen as a conflict of interest.”

    Comedy gold from one of our new troll sock puppets!

    What kind disordered thinking makes it seem logical that if you live in Canada that you would take driver’s ed from a medical organization in another country?

  61. #62 Luna_the_cat
    November 10, 2009

    So jennifer would rather see thousands of babies die each year (known) because of communicable diseases than to take the risk (minute, hypothetical at best, and entirely unsupported by any real evidence) of having a few babies a year with developmental delays.

    …The more I try to understand this mindset, the less I actually grasp it. How is it even possible to have this poor a grasp of reality and not be institutionalised?

    I work with 6 autistic boys all day for the last few weeks.

    Yes, dear, of course you do, aren’t you just the little hero now. *pat**pat*

    You are uneducated, AND an idiot. You want to avoid kids having brain damage? Then you ought to be encouraging people to vaccinate to avoid encephalitis and brain damage from rubella, for a start. But no; instead, you have to imagine threats with no indication that they really exist, and advocate a path of behaviour which would result in real harm? Seriously, what is WRONG with you?

  62. #63 Militant Agnostic
    November 10, 2009

    Chris – I think she means Alberta Motor Association. Of course it says something that she expects an international, largely American audience to know what that stands for.

  63. #64 jennifer
    November 10, 2009

    yes, AMA would stand for Alberta Motor Association. Chris, you really are dumb attacking me for omitting that accronym when you could have addressed so many other points. Sad, really. You are the puppet.
    “Looney the Cat” – aren’t you the prize!! Yes, I bet we’re about at the point of as many children being given encephalitis due to the shots as we would from the actual diseases.Recently a nurse at a major hospital here seized (imaginarily speaking of course) after being given her wonderful H1N1 shot (and yay, Canada went for the adjuvanted crap). There was a code and I’m sure that won’t make the paper. Might not even make the adverse event reports. How pathetic.
    Funny, nobody bit about the Stoneybrook study, the insanity of given hep b to babies, how stupid it is to have added chicken pox to the already bloated schedule, useless “control” groups, and lastly, where does this all end? Every fetus by 2 months, as they say! By all, I have to get my healthy, unvaccinated kids to diving team and hockey.

  64. #65 Chris
    November 10, 2009

    I’m still baffled why you went into the issue of learning to drive in the first place!

    Still argument by assertion is lame and completely useless. Especially when you make absolutely no sense.

  65. #66 a-non
    November 10, 2009

    Recently a nurse at a major hospital here seized (imaginarily speaking of course) after being given her wonderful H1N1 shot (and yay, Canada went for the adjuvanted crap). There was a code and I’m sure that won’t make the paper. Might not even make the adverse event reports. How pathetic.

    Of course. The convenient “government covered it up” excuse, so there’s no way to verify the incident actually happened.

  66. #67 Scientizzle
    November 10, 2009

    Funny, nobody bit about the Stoneybrook study, the insanity of given hep b to babies

    I’ll bite…the study (doi:10.1016/j.annepidem.2009.07.060) is only a published abstract. While that doesn’t mean the results are wrong, it does mean that the findings have not gone through any peer review. Peer review will be essential to evaluate whether the methods were appropriate and the outcomes justifiably interpreted. A 225-word abstract is completely insufficient to properly evaluate the methodology and results.

    Naturally, the antivaxxer David Kirby jumped all over this abstract, extrapolating as such:

    Assuming that the full manuscript is published in a peer-reviewed journal, it will be among the first university-based population studies to suggest an association between a vaccine and an increased risk for autism. And that would be in direct contradiction to all those MMR and thimerosal studies that purportedly found no such link.

    It’s rather foolish to claim that, in its current state, this unpublished study indicates that it is “insane” to vaccinate children for HepB. As for me, I’ll wait until the full peer-reviewed article is in my hands before I determine its impact on the field…

  67. #68 Chris
    November 10, 2009

    Oh, forgot to add: the plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.

    If you really wish to be taken seriously and not be considered a troll, you will have to provide real evidence. Basically stop declaring “vaccines are bad because jennifer says so”… and produce some actual information.

    In the real world measles causes a bad outcome (like blindness, deafness, paralysis and even death) out of about a a thousand cases. Mumps can cause deafness, infertility and meningitis out in about one case out of a thousand. If you can show with real research that the MMR causes the same level of harm, you might have an argument. But you have to use real data, and not the cooked up and lawyer paid stuff from Wakefield.

    And in regards to your now healthy kids: They are that way because of herd immunity. Basically you are being a parasite, because when your neighbors vaccinate their kids it protects your kids.

    Unfortunately the parasite method of disease protection breaks down when too many think like you do. This is why mumps came back to BC, and measles is now endemic in the UK. This is what caused an outbreak of measles in San Diego, where several babies got measles and more than one ended up in the hospital.

    And to add to the couple of dead kids from measles in the UK, the several dozen in Japan, several in Germany… four kids in South Africa have died from measles.

    But, hey, what do you care? Trolls like you have all the answers. Too bad you have nothing to back up those answers.

  68. #69 jennifer
    November 10, 2009

    Chris, I was making an A N A L O G Y between my daughter’s driving instruction and driver testing to the CDC’s control of both vaccine recommendation and surveillance (“safety”). The AMA (Alberta Motor Ass’n) sees doing both as a conflict of intetest. Get it? Why doesn’t the CDC?
    My kids have been partially vaccinated. I wish I hadn.t given 2 MMR’s to my daughter but did. No chicken pox vaccine for either (they got it naturally) and were fine as per what you would expect. No Gardasil for my daughter and I never gave them more than 1 vaccine at a time. Anecdotally speaking, the kids who seem to have bad regressive slides seem to have been given a few shots at one visit ie. chicken pox, dpt and MMR.
    I appreciate your point about herd immunity and understand. It’s big of you to admit that if I had data to show all the MMR harm statistically, that I may have a case. I believe people are working on just that kind of data. Godspeed.
    Yes, it will be interesting to see what comes of the Stoneybrook study. And that Canadian study that found people who had regular flu shots were more at risk for H1N1.

  69. #70 a-non
    November 10, 2009

    As to the Stony Brook study, I would not put a lot of stock in a study that compares a group of 7,455 children (without an ASD) against a group of 31 children with an ASD. Anti-vaxers whine all the time about ecological studies that don’t have “statistical power”, yet they’re ok with this?

    Just another example where the standards are entirely different for a study that supports your worldview as opposed to a study that does not.

  70. #71 jennifer
    November 10, 2009

    Chris,anon, or anybody else: what comments do you have regarding the U. of Manitoba study in Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology(2008), Delaying DPT Vaccine May Reduce Incidence of Childhood Asthma.
    “Childhood asthma is reduced by half when the first dose of dpt is delayed by more than 2 months VS given during the recommended period….”
    Now,especially when you consider than dpt or dtap is anywhere from 59% to 94% effective, it would seem to be causing more asthma perhaps than preventing pertussis. Not good.

  71. #72 Chris
    November 10, 2009

    I would say you are cherry picking. There are also studies that show delaying DTaP vaccines causes and increase of deaths among infants.

  72. #73 Chris
    November 10, 2009

    There are problems with the DTaP in terms of effectiveness, and how long it lasts. That is why herd immunity is so important, and why adults and older children are being encouraged to get the Tdap.

    Your one paper: J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2008 Mar;121(3):626-31. Epub 2008 Jan 18.
    Delay in diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus vaccination is associated with a reduced risk of childhood asthma.

    Its conclusion:

    RESULTS: Among 11, 531 children who received at least 4 doses of DPT, the risk of asthma was reduced to (1/2) in children whose first dose of DPT was delayed by more than 2 months. The likelihood of asthma in children with delays in all 3 doses was 0.39 (95% CI, 0.18-0.86). CONCLUSION: We found a negative association between delay in administration of the first dose of whole-cell DPT immunization in childhood and the development of asthma; the association was greater with delays in all of the first 3 doses. The mechanism for this phenomenon requires further research.

    So there was further research….

    First it was, Pediatrics. 2009 Mar;123(3):944-50.
    Routine vaccination against pertussis and the risk of childhood asthma: a population-based cohort study.

    The abstract starts with:

    Epidemiologic studies of the association between childhood vaccinations and asthma have provided conflicting results, possibly for methodologic reasons such as unreliable vaccination data, biased reporting, and reverse causation. A recent review stressed the need for additional, adequately controlled large-scale studies.

    Which concluded:

    CONCLUSION: This study provides no evidence of an association between vaccination against pertussis in infancy and an increased risk of later wheeze or asthma and does not support claims that vaccination against pertussis might significantly increase the risk of childhood asthma.

    This is another older study: Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2002 Jun;21(6):498-504.
    Childhood vaccinations and risk of asthma.

    Which concludes:

    CONCLUSION: There is no association between diphtheria, tetanus and whole cell pertussis vaccine, oral polio vaccine or measles, mumps and rubella vaccine and the risk of asthma. The weak associations for Hib and hepatitis B vaccines seem to be at least partially accounted for by health care utilization or information bias.

    And another: Am J Public Health. 2001 Jul;91(7):1126-9.
    Immunization and symptoms of atopic disease in children: results from the International Study of Asthma and Allergies in Childhood….

    CONCLUSIONS: International variations in childhood atopic diseases are unlikely to be explained by variations in immunization.

    And then there is another one that is Pediatr Allergy Immunol. 2005 May;16(3):193-200.
    Does childhood immunization against infectious diseases protect from the development of atopic disease?… Which says:

    adjustment for sex, age, father’s socioeconomic status and active smoking, adolescents having been vaccinated (n = 694) had a significant lower risk to suffer from asthma or atopic diseases than non-vaccinated adolescents did (n = 24) [odds ratio (OR) = 0.30; 95% CI: 0.10, 0.92]. ….These results, in agreement with previous ecological data, support the hypothesis that early vaccines could promote Th1 proliferation in response to the infectious agent contained in it, which inhibits the enhancement of atopic manifestations. Further studies are needed to confirm the phenomenon.

    Looking at the papers, they go back and forth. So your Manitoba study is just one of many.

    Now there are problems with delaying pertussis vaccination, in that infants are more vulnerable to the disease. One common anti-vax statement is that Japan stopped vaccinating babies with the DTP and reduced the number of Sudden Infant Deaths. Except they leave out the fact that more infants actually died from pertussis, and since they had not been give the DTP, it could not be blamed:
    Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
    Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future….

    After two infants died within 24 h of the vaccination from 1974 to 1975, the Japanese government temporarily suspended vaccinations. Subsequently, the public and the government witnessed the re-emergence of whooping cough, with 41 deaths in 1979. This series of unfortunate events revealed to the public that the vaccine had, in fact, been beneficial.

    There was also an outbreak that involved deaths in the UK at about the same time. I could not find a good historical paper for reference. Though I did find this paper: Timeliness of Childhood Vaccinations in the United States, which has this paragraph:

    Pertussis is another example of the importance of timely vaccination. During 2003, 11 647 cases of pertussis were reported in the United States31; incidence was highest among infants who were younger than 6 months34 and infants accounted for the highest proportion of pertussis-related hospitalizations and deaths.35 Among infants who contracted pertussis during the 1990s, at least 44% were undervaccinated for their age. Furthermore, among the 25 pertussis-related deaths in infants aged 2 to 11 months, 15 had not received any doses of pertussis vaccine.36 While these children were too young to have received the complete 4-dose series of DTaP, data suggest that the risk of pertussis-related hospitalization is decreased if children have received 1 or 2 doses of vaccine.35 Furthermore, because siblings are a source of transmission to infants too young to be vaccinated,36-37 timely vaccination of these children can indirectly protect young infants by decreasing their exposure. We found that 16% of children were undervaccinated for DTaP for more than 6 of the first 24 months of life and another 14% were undervaccinated for 3 to 6 months.

    So before you demand that vaccines must be 100% effective and 100% safe, you will have to show that the diseases are absolutely 100% harmless.

  73. #74 jennifer
    November 10, 2009

    Chris, that’s the best you can do? I mention an actual study as per your “troll” request but you don’t like it. Cherry picking? Really. A recent study, such as this U. of M. one, shows a problem like this and this is seriously the best you can do? Nobody tackles the Gardasil VS aluminum “control” group issue, the conflict of interest with the CDC ( recommendation and surveillance),stupidity of hep b for babies. I’m not impressed. I will stop posting now. I had heard that the SEED group had pharma ties and now I can see where there is not much here in terms of an open mind. (and no, not so open that stuff falls out).
    Luna the Cat: I hope you don’t have children. Maybe you have kittens, though. God, I hate cats. Nasty little fuckers with claws.

  74. #75 Chris
    November 10, 2009

    So you missed the more recent study that showed no association? Was my post too long? Did you even click on the link at the bottom?

    Yes, you are definitely cherry picking. And now you are moving goal posts by bringing up the HPV vaccine, aluminum and totally skipping answering about the MMR.

    Plus, your response with profane insults instead of any substantial evidence, or reasoned discussion does mark you as a troll.

    I shall feed you no more. Go back under your bridge.

  75. #76 Dedj
    November 10, 2009

    Yes, strongy indicating that you’d taken a study out of the context of the body of knowledge it exists within is the best Chris can do.

    Given that that is the definition of cherry picking, she has been successful.

    You are the one that raised the study up as a major point, and expressly asked for comments on it. She met your challenge and now you pretend some sort of victory just because she stuck to the content of your question?

    Wow, that’s the best you can do? Not impressed. You will not be missed, assuming you actually can stay away.

  76. #77 jennifer
    November 10, 2009

    o.k. I’ll answer back this once. I was responding to your post # 72. #73 hadn’t come up yet. You did do a lot of work in responding. Thankyou. I do realize that with respect to the Manitoba study they were looking at an old dtp vaccine compared to what is out now. It does make me wonder, however; the 2002 study mentions hib, hep b and asthma relationship, only n=24 in non-vacc group in 2005 study. The diseases of course aren’t 100% harmless and neither are the vaccines. We have so so many autistic, seizuring, ADHD kids out there and it cannot be a genetic epidemic.
    The U.S. is the most vaccinated country as per childhood vaccine schedule and yet it is somewhere around 38th in infant mortality. How does that jive?

  77. #78 Do'C
    November 10, 2009

    The diseases of course aren’t 100% harmless and neither are the vaccines.

    In fact, the diseases are much more harmful when it comes to complications, hospitalizations, and mortality.

    We have so so many autistic, seizuring, ADHD kids out there and it cannot be a genetic epidemic.

    Claims of “epidemic” are not supported by the epidemiology – at all.

    The U.S. is the most vaccinated country as per childhood vaccine schedule and yet it is somewhere around 38th in infant mortality. How does that jive?

    Your claim of 38th for infant mortality is bullshit, and several contributing factors are well-known. Most vaccinations occur well after “infant moratality” measures (at less than 12 months of age).

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db23.htm

  78. #79 Curtis E. Flush
    November 10, 2009

    The epidemic of stupid vaccine denialist parent types cannot be genetic.

    What’s causing it Jennifer?

  79. #80 Luna_the_cat
    November 11, 2009

    Heh. Gosh, I’m such a nasty person. jennifer, let’s take a quick look at a few statements you have made upthread.

    Take MMR. … many parents see a downslide in development after this live vaccine (no thim).
    and
    I’d rather be a little Darwinian and say survival of the fittest is better than all this collateral damage for the herd.
    and
    I work with 6 autistic boys all day for the last few weeks.

    Now, for the moment I am going to pay you the tremendous compliment of assuming that you are honest; that you sincerely believe the above (no matter how wrong, you actually believe it) and that you are telling the truth about your care for autistic boys. What that means is that you have just told us that:
    you would rather see babies die than be like the boys you care for.

    Way to go there, champ. Fan-TAS-tic. Do the parents of the boys you care for know that you think babies ought to die rather than be like them? o_0

  80. #81 jennifer
    November 11, 2009

    funny how Chris can comment on my profane insults after she calls me “comedy gold from a new sock puppet” and you (Luna the cat) call me “uneducated AND idiotic.” I have 2 degrees, thanks (one is a B.A.Sc). Nice of you guys to also assume that another poster was not a nurse.
    Yes, I stand by my point that I feel we have gone too far with taking away natural illness even though some kids may die and what we have now is a lot of chronic disability. At least, thank God, we are seeing some hope with newer “quack” treatments like bio-med and chelation and that is what I hope happens for the kids I work with so that they can lead more of a satisfying, meaningful life. Eat shit.
    Now, you all better get back to your mass campaign to vaccinate – every fetus by 2 months!!

  81. #82 JohnV
    November 11, 2009

    Ahh the heart of the vile murderous anti-vaxer on display:

    “Yes, I stand by my point that I feel we have gone too far with taking away natural illness even though some kids may die”

  82. #83 Travis
    November 11, 2009

    jennifer, you can still be “uneducated and idiotic” while having an education. You can just be uneducated about a more specific area. But of course, you can still be idiotic and have an education. You certainly did make some idiotic comments like

    The diseases of course aren’t 100% harmless and neither are the vaccines.

    While it might be true, I do not think you know what it means. No one here has said they thought vaccines where 100% safe. But the other problem with that statement has been pointed out already.

    Care to back up why you would stand by that with some hard data? Maybe you could show somehow it leads to worse health overall but I really do not care about whether or not you simply “feel” natural illness should thread its way through the population and kill kids.

    I was going to actually write more but I see that Do’C has dealt with your claims already.

    Also, jennifer, you have not addressed any of the criticism. Like so many people who come in here and make wild accusations, you latch onto the comments that people make that are “mean” but totally ignore the posts that point out problems with what you say. Why is it that you people can never address the content and ignore the people you think are meanies?

  83. #84 Joseph
    November 11, 2009

    We have so so many autistic, seizuring, ADHD kids out there and it cannot be a genetic epidemic.

    There are lots of adults with ASD, ADHD and seizures too. Are you disputing this, Jennifer?

    BTW, changes in the frequency of some alleles is possible, even within a few generations.

  84. #85 T. Bruce McNeely
    November 11, 2009

    Luna the Cat: I hope you don’t have children. Maybe you have kittens, though. God, I hate cats. Nasty little fuckers with claws.

    OMFG!!!!11111!!

    Think of the KITTEHS! The poor, poor kittehs!

  85. #86 T. Bruce McNeely
    November 11, 2009

    and you (Luna the cat) call me “uneducated AND idiotic.” I have 2 degrees, thanks (one is a B.A.Sc)

    So you’re EDUCATED and idiotic. Somehow, I don’t think that’s better. More tragic, perhaps.

  86. #87 Chris
    November 11, 2009

    Considering my son’s seizures started as a newborn, before any vaccines, plus he had more he had an actual disease, and was left permanently disabled — I find jennifer to be an insensitive, idiotic troll.

    She does not even understand why her posts are insulting (even the ones without the profanity and deliberate insults), nor does she understand that there is a profound difference in the risks between vaccines and the diseases. And her family are parasites, getting the benefits of herd immunity, something else she does not comprehend. She really needs to stay under her bridge and stop digging.

  87. #88 a-non
    November 11, 2009

    It does make me wonder, however; the 2002 study mentions hib, hep b and asthma relationship, only n=24 in non-vacc group in 2005 study.

    In other words, small n samples are ok if it’s a study you like, but not ok if you don’t like them. I get it.

  88. #89 Poogles
    November 11, 2009

    “Yes, I stand by my point that I feel we have gone too far with taking away natural illness even though some kids may die”

    Ya know, I used to feel this way too. Then I realized the only reason I could delude myself into actually thinking that was an acceptable way to look at the world was because I was betting on it not happening to ME or someone I loved. Most of the time, the odds will work out in our favor (thanks to vaccinations and herd immunity!).

    One of the things that got me to re-examine my beliefs about this was the experience of a woman who had had a homebirth and lost her child. She, like most women I know who choose HB, said that “sometimes babies die” and she would “take reposibility” for her decision to HB. Then her baby died. And every day she is reminded of it, simply by being in her home. Every time she’s in her kitchen, she remembers her baby’s limp body on the counter, with the MW desperately trying to get the baby to breathe. The reality of “sometimes babies die” and “taking responsibility” for your birth now had a whole new meaning for her.

    It’s easy to say things like “some kids may die” when you don’t believe it’ll be you and yours.

  89. #90 Scott
    November 11, 2009

    Yes, I stand by my point that I feel we have gone too far with taking away natural illness even though some kids may die and what we have now is a lot of chronic disability.

    So, extending on what Poogles said, should we then understand that you’re OK with YOUR kid being one of those who dies?

    God, I hate cats. Nasty little fuckers with claws.

    Speaks a person who doesn’t know many cats. Some are mean, sure – but a lot of them are sweet, loving, affectionate, and would never attack a person without extreme provocation. Meezers, for instance, tend to be VERY sociable.

  90. #91 jennifer
    November 11, 2009

    Luna the cat: I believe by your calling me “quite the little hero,now.Pat. Pat.” when I said I worked with 6 boys with autism was quite telling of YOUR feelings toward children who have delays and the people who work with them. You obviously think it’s idiot’s work and the children aren’t worth it. I stand with my general point that yes, some children dying of disease, might be better than all this chronic disability. You knew I specifically worked with handicapped children and made fun of it.
    I really do hope that all the teachers’, therapists’ hard work helps these kids to lead more meaningful lives-yes along with “quackery” like bio-med and chelation (which seems to be working fantastically for a lot of kids now).

  91. #92 Scott
    November 11, 2009

    I stand with my general point that yes, some children dying of disease, might be better than all this chronic disability.

    I ask again. Does that specifically include YOUR child dying of disease? Would you still conclude that it’s better?

  92. #93 JohnV
    November 11, 2009

    “I really do hope that all the teachers’, therapists’ hard work helps these kids to lead more meaningful lives-yes along with “quackery” like bio-med and chelation (which seems to be working fantastically for a lot of kids now).”

    I assume this is me fulfilling the criterion for insanity, but [citation needed].

  93. #94 Travis
    November 11, 2009

    What chronic disabilities? First, the evidence anything is being causes by vaccines is not there, but second, the idea that there is an epidemic of these disabilities is not supported by data. This has been dealt with so many times yet no one seems to read about it.

  94. #95 Dedj
    November 11, 2009

    “You obviously think it’s idiot’s work and the children aren’t worth it.”

    No, luna’s response was quite clearly in relation to your claim that you work with 6 autistic boys and that it’s hard work. You ended a post by focusing on it, even though it’s irrelevent to the point you were making, and no one asked you.

    Even if you did not intend the comment as some form of trump-card, it most certainly appeared as if you were mentioning it to get leverage in the discussion, or to make some sort of moral point.

    We get that a lot around here, including one infamous ‘autism advocate’ who boasted about his ‘two visits to autism institutions’, and people who routinely claim superior knowledge due to having an child with autism.

    On the other hand, nothing that Luna said lends any form of support to your interpretation of her words.

    She was clearly making fun of your comment, not your work. Working with people with autism can be hard although if you’re working 1-6 that implies immediately and clearly that they aren’t all ‘that’ hard to deal with, or you’ve missed detail out somewhere. I’ve never had to deal with anyone that needs more than 1-1 (or anyone that needs less than 1-1 come to think of it) but the more ‘severely’ autistic people I’ve met often need 2-1/3-1 24/7.

    1-6 sounds like your staffing levels are critically low.

  95. #96 jennifer
    November 11, 2009

    yes, Scott, even if it’s my kid who dies. Medicine has advanced and decent nutrition and treatments (both traditonal and non-traditional are what I would rather see happening than all this injecting to prevent). I believe there are also homeopathic treatments that do not need to be injected.
    I really did mean that about cats. Hate them.

  96. #97 Travis
    November 11, 2009

    Why am I not surprised to see homeopathic medcine come into this.

    It is just water, or a sugar pill, at least most of the time. I know that earlier in the year we did learn that one homeopathic med contained enough zinc to do damage.

  97. #98 Todd W.
    November 11, 2009

    @jennifer

    I believe there are also homeopathic treatments that do not need to be injected.

    You are aware, aren’t you, that homeopathy is little more than either water or alcohol (if in liquid form), or sugar or other excipients (if in pill form)? In other words, no active ingredient. Ergo, not effective in treating any condition.

    You are also aware, are you not, that homeopathic “treatments” are not required to go through clinical trials to prove efficacy and that they are not required to be tested for potency or stability?

    And you feel that death is better than life with a disability? What about the comparative risk of disability from a disease vs. disability from a vaccine? I’ll give you a hint, the risk is much higher for disability from a disease.

  98. #99 Pablo
    November 11, 2009

    You are aware, aren’t you, that homeopathy is little more than either water or alcohol (if in liquid form), or sugar or other excipients (if in pill form)? In other words, no active ingredient. Ergo, not effective in treating any condition.

    Not true. Large homeopathic doses are effective in combating dehydration.

  99. #100 Todd W.
    November 11, 2009

    @Pablo

    Not true. Large homeopathic doses are effective in combating dehydration.

    Only liquid formulations that use water as a base. Those that use alcohol as a base would be rather bad for dehydration, methinks.

  100. #101 Chris
    November 11, 2009

    Also, the milk sugar pills that the homeopathic liquid is dropped on do not help dehydration. Plus they could cause issues with those who are lactose intolerant, and also those with diabetes.

    By the way, as we are straying off topic, today Dr. Steven Novella posted an article on homeopathy on the Science Based Medicine Blog.

  101. #102 jennifer
    November 11, 2009

    Dedj- why not let Luna the cat speak for herself? She absolutely mocked what I do for a living and ergo the kids. She extrapolated for me that I think those specific kids should be dead, which in the specific, I do not. I won’t even dignify that crap anymore. Is Chris meaning to use her child’s disability as a trump card? We do have better ratios than 6:1. Of course I specifically work only with one or two children, depending.(6 in total in our class).
    Travis you really do blather on. First you said my comment was “idiotic” then you went on to say, “while it might be true, I don’t think you know what it means.” Totally non-sensical! You are a condescending arsehole. You say I have not addressed any criticism but I believe I complemented Chris on the post I saw with all the research she shared on dpt and asthma. No doubt, there will be more studies done on the matter; some will say there are problems associating asthma and dpt, and others that find not.
    a-non, I believe someone else didn’t like one of the Stoneybrook sample sizes either. Yada yada…
    Poogles, I think you’re right. You really do have to be able to live with your choice.
    Chris, I have vaccinated my kids with dpt, MMR, hib etc. I have elected not to give them hep b or Gardasil and only one MMR for my son. They got chicken pox naturally. So I really am not the parasite you describe. I did say unvaccinated, I believe ,and that was not right. I truly did mean to say minimally vaccinated.
    Travis, “what chronic disablities?” OMFG- you really need to get into some schools and see what’s out there now-learning disabilities, aspergers, autism, ADHD- it abounds.
    To all: I still say what is the limit to what an infant/newborn can take in terms of vaccinating? No answers on that?
    Also, if such a growing number of doctors, researchers and the public are questioning vaccine safety, shouldn’t you guys just get with the program in terms of simple market demand? Better safety studies (use of true placebos in comparison groups), no thim(as was recommended about a decade ago -in Canada we don.t go for the multi-dose vials as much as U.S. does, no adjuvant (Chris, you say it isn’t approved in U.S. but we’re doling it out here in Canada), perhaps more delivery such as flu mist type which at least enters the body and allows the normal route/mechanisms for disease, rather than through the bloodstream. Yes, if pharma does not adapt to the market and what people perceive to be as safe then it’s really their own damn problem. A recent NY times article noted not too many lined up for H1N1 shots.

  102. #103 dedicated lurker
    November 11, 2009

    jennifer, do you understand the difference between subcutaneous, intramuscular, and intravenous methods of delivery? Please tell me which vaccines fall into which category.

  103. #104 jennifer
    November 11, 2009

    subcutaneous delivery- micro needles. I am not in vaccine research. For contagious diseases, mucosal vaccines might be a good choice. From what I have read, the trick would be to find a safe adjuvant for the needle-free vaccine. I assume some of you actually are vaccine researchers. Again, your market is asking for safer formulations,better safety studies so you better respond to that or go the way of the dinosaur. It’s pretty simple. Stuff like Hewitson’s study on hep b and it’s effects on neonatal responses, not ‘let’s compare the new dpt against the old dpt and see how many less problems there are.’(that’s tantamount to a pass on safety and you know it).
    What I do find interesting is an abstract (Dec. 20, 2005, ‘Needle-Free Vaccine Delivery’,Centre for Vaccine Development, U.of Maryland School of Medicine E. Giudice and J.D. Campbell.
    The second sentence says,
    Needle-free vaccine delivery could increase ease and speed of delivery, and by offering improved safety and compliance,decreasing costs… Improved knowledge regarding the immune system and its responses to vaccines continues to inform vacine technologies for needle-free vaccine delivery.
    Hmmmmn, sounds like there is support for some safety concerns and this right from a centre for vaccine development.
    I really do have to go and spend time with the kids. Remember, work on your product -vaccines. It’s really not all that much to ask. Bye, really.

    p.s. For you to all be questioning Desiree Jenning’s dystonia or whatever the heck her vaccine reaction was would be the same as me questioning whether Chris’ child’s seizures were all in his head. EWW I said it. I am mean. Honestly, if she says her son has seizures I believe her that they’re not “psychogenic”. But why don’t you give Desiree the same courtesy?

  104. #105 Joseph
    November 11, 2009

    Hmmmmn, sounds like there is support for some safety concerns and this right from a centre for vaccine development.

    Right, very surprising, because vaccine manufacturers generally want vaccines to be as harmful as possible.

    p.s. For you to all be questioning Desiree Jenning’s dystonia or whatever the heck her vaccine reaction was would be the same as me questioning whether Chris’ child’s seizures were all in his head. EWW I said it. I am mean. Honestly, if she says her son has seizures I believe her that they’re not “psychogenic”. But why don’t you give Desiree the same courtesy?

    It has zero to do with courtesy. In fact, there is such a thing as psychogenic seizures. They have some specific characteristics. They may be caused by stressful events. If Chris’ son had seizures with characteristics suggesting they are psychogenic, I’d expect a neurologist would’ve brought it up; just like the neurologist who brought up psychogenic dystonia in Deiree Jennings’ case, according to the VAERS report.

  105. #106 Antaeus Feldspar
    November 11, 2009

    Nice of you guys to also assume that another poster was not a nurse.

    If you’re talking about Tawny, we did not assume that she was not a nurse, as she claimed she was. When she made the blatantly false assertion that infants did not have any immune response, however, it became clear that either she was not a nurse or she shouldn’t be a nurse.

    If you think that any random commenter on the Internet who shows up claiming to have medical qualifications should be treated as having those medical qualifications, even after they’re caught getting elementary elements of the subjects they’re presuming to expound upon completely wrong – this is a flaw in you, one you should correct.

  106. #107 dedicated lurker
    November 12, 2009

    jennifer, thank you for proving my point you don’t understand the difference. Vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream (intraveneous delivery) they are injected into the muscle (intramuscular delivery).

    I think there should be a rule if anyone wants to talk about vaccines they must take and pass a biology exam.

  107. #108 Luna_the_cat
    November 12, 2009

    Luna is occasionally offline in the evening in order to deal with Real Life™ — but actually, jennifer, Dedj nailed it. Pay attention to him, because he has provided you with exactly the right interpretation.

    You have no idea what my feelings are towards autistic, disabled, and/or developmentally delayed/disabled kids, nor do you understand why. But let me make this clear to you: I was indeed mocking your having thrown that entirely gratuitous statement in as an apparent argument towards your own authority on the matter — it is no more a support for you than various claims we have seen from people that We Should Pay Attention To Their Opinion Because They Have A Kid, or We Should Pay Attention To Their Opinion Because They Talk To Big Important People. (Plus, indeed, your claim to be looking after 6 boys tripped all kinds of skeptical circuits; you don’t look after that many developmentally delayed/disabled kids by yourself. You were either one of a team, and nothing special, otherwise you were making a completely implausible claim.)

    Further:
    I do further hold you to be vile for your position that kids would be better off dead. I very much doubt that most of those children, or their parents, would agree. You are cheerfully advocating that other people’s kids be let to die, not just your own. I’m not even sure I have the words to express my reaction to this.

    Further:
    I hold you to be an idiot for your assertion that deaths from disease would somehow only equal, at worst, and perhaps be better than, your [so far completely evidence-free] assertion of injury to children from the prevention of those diseases by vaccine. I very much doubt that you have ever seen those diseases, and you show an appallingly poor understanding of numbers and relative risk.

    There has never been a credible, well-designed study which indicated any form of long-term damage to children from vaccines in any incidence over 1 in 1,000,000; on the other hand, 1-3 out of every 1000 children with measles dies, and that is in rich industrialised nations with good healthcare available. Your disbelief of the difference in numbers based on nothing more than personal incredulity is not a virtue.You need to understand your errors of risk perception, as well as the numbers.

    Your evidence-free assertion that chelation, a potentially very dangerous procedure in itself, is a good treatment for children also fits right in with the pattern above, and does nothing to recommend your understanding of biology or medical treatments — as does your failure to understand just how implausible homeopathy is in light of not just medicine but also physics, chemistry, and all of physical reality. If I am to continue to regard you as honest, and to believe you that you have a BSc, then it is evident that you have somehow managed to come through a basic science degree with no understanding of basic science. I can’t say that actually counts as “education”, since education would imply that you understood and retained actual knowledge.

    But there, that is Luna speaking for herself.