Respectful Insolence

24 hours later…

It’s been more than 24 hours since I received my H1N1 vaccine, and so far the only problem I’ve had is a bit of a sore arm. (Maybe I shouldn’t have had the nurse use the left arm again, as that’s where I got my seasonal flu vaccine, too. On the other hand, I am right-handed.)

Sadly, I have not become autistic, despite having had all that mercury, formaldehyde, and witches brew of “toxins” injected “directly into by bloodstream.” I guess it’s just not to be.

I did notice one “side effect,” though. Shortly after I received my vaccine yesterday morning, I received an urgent call to the clinic and had to spend the next three hours dealing with a patient emergency. Fortunately, it didn’t turn out to be as urgent as it had been originally billed, but it took a lot of time to figure that out. Because of that lost time I was unable to finish the talk I have to give in a couple of hours, meaning that I stayed up late last night working on the talk, further meaning that I didn’t have time to cook up the usual logorrheic batch of not-so-Respectful Insolence on a hapless “victim” (I mean subject).

I know, that means that vaccines must cause other people to have emergencies requiring the services of the one vaccinated, thereby keeping that vaccinated person from anything other than a brief, snarky blog post making fun of how anti-vaccinationists confuse correlation with causation by pointing out how my being vaccinated must have caused my patient’s emergency! (Yes, I know my reality-based readers got the point, but you really do have to spell it out for the anti-vaccine trolls. Preferably in crayon, but I can’t really do that easily on this blog.)

In any case, I really must test my hypothesis next year, when it’s time to be vaccinated against the seasonal flu again.

Comments

  1. #1 LK PhD
    November 11, 2009

    I have another hypothesis – your H1N1 vaccine “caused” J.B. to put up another loving tribute to you on AofA today.

  2. #2 Luna_the_cat
    November 11, 2009

    Here — crayon.

  3. #3 James Sweet
    November 11, 2009

    I almost had a severe vaccine-related injury yesterday.

    I got my seasonal flu shot yesterday morning. On the way to lunch, I decided I probably ought to check my arm, just to make sure there wasn’t any visible irritation. Stupid me, I was walking towards a staircase as I rolled up my sleeve and peered at my arm (rather than what was in front of me). I looked up about six inches before I was about to go careening down a flight of stairs.

    Put that in your VAERS and smoke it!

  4. #4 Kathy DeVine
    November 11, 2009

    I had to laugh since my 15 year old got her HINI yesterday and ranted about all the terrible things that were going to happen to her including walking backward when you were attempting to go forward! She heard it all from credible sources, teenagers, who got it from very credible sources, cable TV.

    Moral of the story, Moms rule: she got the shot.

  5. #5 superdave
    November 11, 2009

    getting mine today!

  6. #6 Scott
    November 11, 2009

    I have another hypothesis – your H1N1 vaccine “caused” J.B. to put up another loving tribute to you on AofA today.

    Quite a hilarious one, too. Complains up and down about “long-distance doctors” making unethical diagnoses. Well, gee, isn’t it worse to have long-distance NON-doctors making such? You know, the one he’s completely relying on for his entire position…

  7. #7 Jojo
    November 11, 2009

    OMG! You mean the H1N1 vaccination resulted in your inability to blog about the antivax cranks? What a brilliant way for them to silence the pro-vaccination bloggers. They wouldn’t even have to specialize it to only effect the pro-vax side since their antivax comrades would never subject themselves to begin with.

    I smell conspiracy!

  8. #8 Richard Eis
    November 11, 2009

    No, no, in 10 days time you will be left unable to walk and have to run everywhere.

  9. #9 Gus Snarp
    November 11, 2009

    OK, I know we’re all preaching to the choir here, but as far as I’m concerned, using proper logic and reason is the key to overcoming anti-vaccine arguments. The first step in this is not to completely distort those arguments. Attack the real arguments, not ones you’ve made up. The anti-vaccine types argue that thimerosal causes autism when given to people with brains still in early stages of development, not adults. There is no scientific evidence to support their view, but it weakens our arguments when we distort their views in order to ridicule them. There is enough room for ridicule as it is.

  10. #10 Irene Delse
    November 11, 2009

    Oh, noes! New kinds of “vaccine injury”: from lost chunks of the spatio-temporal continuum, to teenage ranting! The horror!

  11. #11 Orac
    November 11, 2009

    I have another hypothesis – your H1N1 vaccine “caused” J.B. to put up another loving tribute to you on AofA today.

    Obviously, I can test that hypothesis next year. :-)

    In any case, my only surprise is that it took that long for J. B. to do it. After all, both of my Desiree Jennings posts were last week. It must have taken poor J.B. four days of Googling and searching my blog to find those excerpts that he thought might embarrass me, as well as the video of Fonzi jumping the shark.

    I must have really hit a nerve. J.B. only launches one of his patented Google reputation-poisoning attacks like that when I’ve scored big. Of course, it’s been about nine months since the last time J.B. did that; so it was due anyway. Also, Friday’s post on Desiree Jennings was Digg’ed, and passed around all sorts of other social media, driving my unique visit count to over 40,000 in a single day, which, I think, is an all-time one day traffic record for this blog. As I said, I must have scored a direct hit, in particular in correctly pointing out that GR and J.B. are despicably exploiting this poor young woman, which is true.

    But, most characteristically, J.B. didn’t even have the common courtesy of linking to the posts that annoy him. Heck, I do that for him even when I despise what he’s saying and am writing a post refuting it. The reason is that I want my readers to be able to read the entire text, so that they know I’m not misrepresenting what I’m criticizing or taking quotes out of context. J.B.’s too inconsiderate to return the favor. The ingrate! I probably drive more traffic to his blog than almost anyone else (although I’m always careful to use the rel=”nofollow” tag in order not to increase his Google juice). Actually, the real reason is almost certainly because he doesn’t want to drive traffic to me, and he wants to be able to misrepresent what I say and take it out of context with near impunity because most people won’t go searching for the original post that he’s attacking.

    BTW, you can use this comment thread to make fun of J.B.’s post if you want, given that AoA ruthlessly censors comments and would never let you do it there.

  12. #12 Pablo
    November 11, 2009

    I half-way support Gus Snarp’s position. I think this whole “I’ve been vaccinated and didn’t catch autism” crap is pretty insulting to those who are legitimately afflicted (not from vaccines, of course). I’d prefer you all knocked it off.

    (although to correct Gus a bit, recall that the the anti-vaxxers are jumping all over the dystonia thing, so they don’t care what vaccines cause, they just know it causes something bad)

  13. #13 To Pablo
    November 11, 2009

    Better be careful, Pablo and Gus.

    Orac might call you a “concern troll.”

  14. #14 Terrie
    November 11, 2009

    Less than 30 minutes after getting my seasonal flu shot, I had to give a presentation. It went wonderfully, and I was able to get a group who generally has nothing to ask or say, asking questions and talking about the topic. Obviously, I need to get a flu shot before every presentation.

  15. #15 Corina Becker
    November 11, 2009

    Reposting a previous comment, but it’s been two weeks since my H1N1 shot.

    adjuvanted, with thimerosal, manufactured by GlaxoSmithKline.

    Two weeks. Still not more autistic.

    I’m an autistic adult, which supposedly means that I’d be pre-supposed (or whatever) to have autism caused by whatever toxins-of-the-month in vaccines, right?

    Oh wait, I don’t have GI issues…. hmmm… that might be why…

    oh, wait wait wait. According to the accounts, autism develops MONTHS after vaccines. Well, dang, I guess I better not call off the “Happy More Autistic” party quite yet.

    Gonna keep track :D

  16. #16 Gus Snarp
    November 11, 2009

    @Pablo – Like I said, plenty of room to ridicule their real arguments. So saying you don’t have dystonia 24 hours later – fair game. Here’s what should top any story about “dystonia” “caused” by vaccines: the number of vaccinations given compared to the number of suspected cases of “dystonia”. That ought to settle (though we all know it won’t).

  17. #17 Orac
    November 11, 2009

    But what we’re making fun of here is the confusing of correlation with causation, which is made even more ridiculous when an adult says he got vaccinated and didn’t become autistic. No insult is intended. If you like, I could just as well have used dystonia or the claim that the flu vaccine causes Alzheimer’s.

  18. #18 Calli Arcale
    November 11, 2009

    I agree that it gets a bit childish after a while, BUT….

    …it’s not an entire strawman, as Gus suggested. While the general thrust of their argument is indeed that vaccines afflict growing minds, with the Desiree Jennings case they are *specifically* referring to an adult. And more pertinently, prominent anti-vaxxers have repeatedly challenged doctors to prove they believe in vaccine safety by going out and getting vaccinated. It is an actual anti-vax argument that doctors don’t really get vaccines, because they know better. So I think it is good for medical bloggers to go get vaccinated and then blog about it. True, the “and I’m still not autistic!” thing can get old. But then, so do the lies about doctors not getting vaccines.

  19. #19 techskeptic
    November 11, 2009

    I mentioned this before, but the flu vaccine improved my daughters cognitive skills. I’m sure of it. ;)

    http://bit.ly/1VgQkE

  20. #20 Greg Laden
    November 11, 2009

    Funny, my H1N1 shot, in the right arm, has caused more soreness than the seasonal (a week earlier in the left arm) which caused almost none. The H1N1 shot hurt when being given, the seasonal did not hurt at all.

    Now we just need a third data point and we have a trend.

  21. #21 T. Bruce McNeely
    November 11, 2009

    Gus Snarp:
    I think that brian (or it could have been some other troll) tried to explain the finding that 1 out of 100 adults has ASD by blaming it on vaccines administered while they were adults.
    However, I’ll be damned if I will slog through his huge pile of electronic bullshit to verify this.

  22. #22 DLC
    November 11, 2009

    Hmm… you had a vaccination and were kept awake late into the night. Are you sure that the shot didn’t upset your humors ? They really should have bled you for a bit . . .

  23. #23 Pablo
    November 11, 2009

    But what we’re making fun of here is the confusing of correlation with causation, which is made even more ridiculous when an adult says he got vaccinated and didn’t become autistic.

    If you are going to make fun of the correlation/causation problem, then the better approach is the one like techskeptic, who notes an effect after the vaccine was given, or the “your H1N1 vaccine “caused” J.B. to put up another loving tribute to you on AofA today” – those are funny, and in many cases, instructive.

    Intended or not, “I had a shot and didn’t become autistic (or catch dystonia or develop an auto-immune disease)” still comes off as mocking and condescending. Stick with the positive effects.

    (in terms of childish and tiresome, it’s still got nothing on “dihydrogen monoxide,” which is exceedingly lame)

  24. #24 Travis
    November 11, 2009

    I had my H1N1 shot and my arm hurt for about 2 days. It was stiff and moving my shoulder around hurt a bit bit then it disappeared. However, unlike Greg, getting the shot did not hurt at all.

  25. #25 JohnV
    November 11, 2009

    My right arm/shoulder started hurting a couple of days ago and I didn’t get any flu shots this year. Judging by the number of you who got shots and didn’t report pain, it clearly proves that the flu shot reduces arm pain.

  26. #26 Gus Snarp
    November 11, 2009

    @T. Bruce McNeely:

    Well, that wouldn’t really surprise me, but if one statement by brian is the basis of the argument, that is the ultimate in feeding trolls, isn’t it?

  27. #27 mk
    November 11, 2009

    Intended or not, “I had a shot and didn’t become autistic (or catch dystonia or develop an auto-immune disease)” still comes off as mocking and condescending. Stick with the positive effects.

    I hope it was intended! The folks being mocked deserve worse.

  28. #28 WonderingWilla
    November 11, 2009

    My two-and-a-half year-old got hers Sunday. When we got home, she ran around the house in stocking feet and fell and really hurt head and other parts of her body. Coincidence? I am writing this one into VAERS.

  29. #29 Pablo
    November 11, 2009

    Personally, I was thinking more about the comments from yesterday and today in my ranting, but just noticed something:

    Orac, you realize you actually said this?

    Sadly, I have not become autistic,

    I realize the jest, but come on. I hope you can see that some might not find it funny that you are “sad” that you didn’t become autistic.

  30. #30 Scott
    November 11, 2009

    (in terms of childish and tiresome, it’s still got nothing on “dihydrogen monoxide,” which is exceedingly lame)

    But exceedingly relevant in some cases.

  31. #31 Denice Walter
    November 11, 2009

    2 more VAERS reports! My SO and I were both vaccinated for seasonal flu in early Sept.- a week later,I was scouting out ethnic restaurants on a city street and FELL DOWN (I NEVER fall down!)causing slight misery, but only if I play tennis.My SO had knee trouble after the gym and later required an MRI (slight tear in ligament) and PT.Seasonal flu shots cause clumsiness, not autism.Seriously.

  32. #32 For Pablo again
    November 11, 2009

    Yep, I definitely smell a “concern troll” rant coming. Orac doesn’t like it when people disagree with him.

  33. #33 Scott
    November 11, 2009

    Orac has no problems with people disagreeing with him so long as they actually provide evidence and reasoned arguments why. And yes, he’ll even (publicly) admit he was wrong if the arguments of those disagreeing are better than his.

  34. #34 J
    November 11, 2009

    Why do you always apologize to the blog readers when you don’t have time to write a long post, especially when you are using time to do your “real” job? Do you ever apologize to your family when you don’t have any time for them because you spend all your free time working on the blog? I’m sure the world could survive a few days a week without Orac. Maybe you should get your priorities straight.

  35. #35 Gus Snarp
    November 11, 2009

    @For Pablo: I think that Orac can tell the difference between a difference of opinion and a troll.

  36. #36 Chris2
    November 11, 2009

    “Also, Friday’s post on Desiree Jennings was Digg’ed, and passed around all sorts of other social media, driving my unique visit count to over 40,000 in a single day, which, I think, is an all-time one day traffic record for this blog.”

    This really makes me ecstatic. I have hope that we’ll see a day when these uninformed opinions will be summarily dismissed and marginalized. *Crosses fingers*

  37. #37 T. Bruce McNeely
    November 11, 2009

    No, swine flu does not cause ASD in adults.
    However, I do have evidence that it causes outbreaks of concern trolls.

    Right, J?

  38. #38 Interrobang
    November 11, 2009

    I was recovering from a sinus infection (and was told by my doctor not to get immunised for anything this fall until after I’d finished my antibiotics) when the flu vaccines became available here, so I didn’t get the shot, and something terrible happened to me…

    I got the *@%#$!!ing flu instead. I don’t (*kaff wheeze*) recommend it, particularly the ~30h I spent vomiting up everything I’d eaten since childhood, and the nasty bronchitis. I’ve had fun before, and that wasn’t it.

  39. #39 bensmyson
    November 11, 2009

    Whew…. just imagine the relief it is to know that no one in my family has gotten the swine flu vaccine and no one has died! I wonder what the odds are for that? Must be one in … um.. one in, help me here, anyway I feel like I won the lottery!

  40. #40 Luna_the_cat
    November 11, 2009

    Ok, cut Pablo a break. People who are autistic or who live with/care for autistic kids, with all the problems, disadvantages and genuine coping issues that this brings (and make no mistake, there are always some) may not necessarily find jokes about becoming autistic in good taste — and this is perfectly legitimate. It’s not entirely unlike making jokes about people being deaf or blind or mentally ill.

    I mean, it seems unlikely to me that this will stop everyong from making jokes, but it’s not outwith the realm of normal reactions to not find it funny if you have to deal with that reality.

  41. #41 Robin Levett
    November 11, 2009

    @Orac:

    …despite having had all that mercury, formaldehyde, and witches brew of “toxins” injected “directly into by bloodstream.”

    Intramuscular injections – the person who gave you your shot is doing it wrong…

    @Greg #20:

    Funny, my H1N1 shot, in the right arm, has caused more soreness than the seasonal (a week earlier in the left arm) which caused almost none. The H1N1 shot hurt when being given, the seasonal did not hurt at all.

    Had both last night; the H1N1, in the left arm, is still sore; the seasonal, in the right, isn’t. So we can discount left/right effects.

    OTOH, neither shot hurt on administration.

  42. #42 Crappy McBrainless
    November 11, 2009

    Two hours after you got your vaccination, I got constipated real bad. Felt like I was passing a child. Thanks a lot, Orac!

  43. #43 Corina Becker
    November 11, 2009

    @ Luna_the_cat

    that may be true, depends on the joking and the person.

    but as an autistic adult, in regards to vaccines causing autism joking, I find it funny.

    heck, I was joking about it while waiting in line for my shot two weeks ago. I’m thinking of making a shirt “two weeks after vaccine – still not more autistic”

  44. #44 superdave
    November 11, 2009

    so i didn’t get my vaccine today because they ran out. Still I think this is a minor victory

  45. #45 KWombles
    November 11, 2009

    I’m with Corina on this. I’m mother to three awesome children on the spectrum, and it’s not offensive to me. Of course, I’m not an anti-vaccination, my children-have-autism-because-of-something-in-the-vaccines kind of gal.

    And many autistic individuals take pride in who they are, autism and all. And we should, as parents, want our children to have that same pride. So, Orac writing sadly, well, is that not reinforcement that there is nothing wrong with being an autistic individual?

    And if the AoAers were only worried about early childhood vaccination causing autism they’d stick to that meme. They do not.

    Make the t-shirt, Corina!

  46. #46 Travis
    November 11, 2009

    Crappy McBrainless, really, I feel for you. After surgery a few months ago I was taking a lot of Codeine and after only a few days foolishly ate a lot of very, very cheesy pizza along with that. Well, you can imagine the pain a few days later.

    Sorry for that delightful image.

  47. #47 muteKi
    November 11, 2009

    You mean, that they had enough of a demand to run out? I’d agree with that.

  48. #48 muteKi
    November 11, 2009

    (Comment was directed at superdave)

  49. #49 The Domestic Goddess
    November 11, 2009

    As the parent of children with autism, I can assure you two things:
    1) I am not offended by his references to “catching” autism, I find it quite amusing because people literally tell me tehy don’t want their kids to catch autism from the MMR shot so they delayed it (ZOINKS!)

    2)People who get offended by such nonsense need to lighten up a bit. Life is too short, people. You’ve all got more important things going on in life than to be Internet Trolls. FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, if you don’t like it, don’t’ read it.

  50. #50 Liz Ditz
    November 11, 2009

    I’m waiting for Dr. Jay to show up to tell you why your getting the vaccine is immoral because H1N1 is just hype.

  51. #51 Damgerous Bacon
    November 11, 2009

    Physicians who get vaccinated for H1N1 flu are not just protecting themselves, but outpatients, hospital patients and visitors who otherwise might get exposed to flu from an infected doctor.

    I don’t recall Dr. Jay ever telling us that he was going to get the shot to protect his contacts, either as a requirement of being a hospital staff physician or because of a moral imperative to do so. It’s an interesting dilemma for an antivaxer – do you forego immunization and put others at risk, or get the shot and then face the hypocrisy of advising your at-risk patients against it?

  52. #52 Corina Becker
    November 11, 2009

    @KWombles, I totally will. I’m thinking on the front:

    “two weeks since vaccine – still not more autistic”

    and then on the back

    “guess I’m canceling the Happy More Autistic Party”

    @Domestic Goddess
    I agree. People do need to lighten up. Mocking doesn’t necessarily mean disrespect. Isn’t parody one of the most sincere forms of flattery?

    @ Liz
    I’m half waiting for him to show up as well. He started messaging me on LiveJournal, wanting to apologize. I told him it wasn’t just me he offended, and that if he was sincere, he would make amends for what he has done. Haven’t heard back from him yet…

  53. #53 Amandarandom
    November 11, 2009

    I’ve had a much more dangerous side effect. Not 10 minutes after getting the shot, I’ve had a door slammed in my face, then I found my bike’s tire flat and when I got home, I found not one but FIVE bills in the mail!

    Also, my shot hurt more than any needle ever. I’ve given blood dozens of times, and that was much less painfull than the H1N1 shot. I think they may have use a knitting needle.

  54. #54 nlgirl
    November 11, 2009

    Also as a parent of a son on the spectrum I take no offense from the “more autistic” joke. My son is a perfect, fully vaccinated individual. He has his issues, but what parent doesn’t deal with their child’s issues (they ALL have them).

    And a big THANK YOU to Corina (and any other autistic individuals who post)for communicating their own points of view. It is an inspiration to me.

  55. #55 Uncle Dave
    November 11, 2009

    Orac wrote;
    “Sadly, I have not become autistic, despite having had all that mercury, formaldehyde, and witches brew of “toxins” injected “directly into by bloodstream.” I guess it’s just not to be.”

    How do you know?
    Loud noises realy upset you lately?
    Are you stemming a lot?
    Get upset when people request you try new things?
    Diet not vary much, or fairly routine?
    find yourself repeating the last few words of other peoples sentences? (note email responses to others)
    Starting to rock when you sit (while not in a rocking chair of course)?
    Your social skills (on the internet) have been called into question numerous times on this blog, however that was before the H1N1 so never mind.

    Dialing phone to Jenny right now……
    I have Oprah on hold.

  56. #56 autistic lurker
    November 11, 2009

    I really don’t post often here but I must add that I’m okay with Orac’s joke about confusing correlation with causation (and getting more autistic). I don’t believe autism is a life sentence.

  57. #57 Pablo
    November 11, 2009

    I don’t believe autism is a life sentence.

    There is a difference between

    1) “I am not unhappy because I have autism”

    and

    2) “I am unhappy I do not have autism”

    I wholly support all of you who are espousing (1).

    I do not support Orac’s statement of of (2) (even in jest)

  58. #58 JohnV
    November 11, 2009

    Satire, the lost art :(

  59. #59 Katharine
    November 11, 2009

    I got mine today. I’m good!

  60. #60 squirrelelite
    November 11, 2009

    Sorry, Orac, if I steal your thunder and I apologize for getting a bit carried away with this, but here are my thoughts on J.B. Handley’s blog of 11 Nov 2009 regarding Orac.

    OK, J.B.

    1. J.B. does recognize Orac’s real name, but I’m not sure whom he is referring to as “SoCalGal”. I did a quick Google search and came up with several women on various social network sites who use that pseudonym. Without a cross-reference, it is hard to tell which one is supposed to be Orac.

    2. He then spends about 20 short lines griping about Orac’s being “very proud” of his medical qualifications. Mostly, I find this irrelevant because I have been following Orac’s postings on this blog and his other postings on Science-Based Medicine for over a year now and I have never seen any of the quotes that J.B. cites. Occasionally, Orac does note that he is a cancer surgeon when it is relevant to the subject he is discussing, i.e. cancer.

    3. Then, J. B. complains about Orac’s criticizing other physicians, calling it “wildly unprofessional”. Sorry, J.B., but that is how science works. It is perfectly normal to discuss the quality of scientific research and the validity of the conclusions that are drawn from it. That is how science sorts the wheat from the chaff. Mostly, this strikes me as a reverse ad hominem argument. In other words, Orac shouldn’t be complaining about other doctors (truly ironic in this case, since Desiree Jennings doesn’t say who they are or give them release to discuss her case) because he is a doctor, but it is perfectly all right for me, J.B., to complain about Orac because I am only a businessman ?!?

    4. Then, he complains about Steven Novella’s reporting on the Desiree Jennings case that had “no basis in reality and was simply false”. O.K., J.B., what are the falsehoods?

    5. Then he offers a series of complaints about breaking “all sorts of medical ethical boundaries”, including:

    a. “Challenging Ms. Jennings’ original diagnosis of dystonia. Since when do doctors make long-distance video-only diagnoses?”

    i. Actually, those doctors questioned the original reporting of this case. As Dr Novella said, “The media … failed to ask basic journalistic questions – was the illness Jennings suffered from due to the vaccine, was it confirmed as the flu, and was it the strain from the vaccine, was the incubation period compatible with a vaccine-induced flu, did she get the live-virus version of the vaccine, does she really have dystonia, has that diagnosis been verified, are their other possibilities, and what is the plausibility that it was caused by the vaccine? None of these basic questions are addressed in the news reports”

    ii. Sorry, J.B., but that’s about all most people have to use as a basis for responding to the claims made in this case. As Dr. Novella said in one comment on his original blog, “I am not diagnosing Desiree or recommending a treatment. I am simply commenting on the videos made public (as others have).” Of course, Dr. Rashid Buttar and Ms. Jennings are quite free to arrange for her to visit Dr. Novella (who does treat dystonia patients) or his neurology colleagues to get a complete workup. In the medical world, that is called “getting a second opinion”. Then, J.B. complains about “offering up potentially false commentary”. Hello, pot. Meet kettle.

    b. “Claiming Ms. Jennings condition is ‘all in her head.’” I reviewed blogs about this case by Orac and Dr. Novella and didn’t find where they used that term, at least not as their own description of her condition. As Orac says, “I do not think that she is faking, and “psychogenic” doesn’t mean that she can control her symptoms. She is indeed suffering, I’m sure.” And, as Dr Novella says, they (at Generation Rescue) “are denying the very legitimate and debilitating nature of psychological illness – that it is very real and deserving of compassion and treatment. It is just another kind of “brain” disorder – just a functional one.”

    c. “Claiming she couldn’t possibly recover from a condition she didn’t even have.” Actually, several doctors who treat dystonia have offered the opinion based on the video evidence that Desiree Jennings’ symptoms are not compatible with true dystonia. And, the doctors who allegedly diagnosed her with dystonia are not free to comment on her case. Dr. Novella states, “psychogenic disorders can and do spontaneously resolve.”

    d. “Claiming the flu shot couldn’t possibly cause her condition.” Again, as Dr Novella says, “The medical community is always careful to point out that there are very rare reactions to vaccines. No one is claiming that they are 100% safe – no medical intervention is. But severe reactions are very rare. Meanwhile, about 36,000 people die each year in the US alone from the seasonal flu.”

    As I calculate the odds, we have been giving seasonal flu shots for over 30 years now. If we have been only vaccinating 10% of the people in the U.S. every year, we have still given about a billion flu shots. From those billion flu shots, only 3 or 4 cases of dystonia have been reported to VAERS. And, those are only anecdotal claims. I couldn’t determine if any of them were actually confirmed as being dystonia and as being caused by the flu shot. So, for the purpose of analysis, let us set them aside and assume that Desiree Jennings is the first “confirmed case of dystonia caused by a flu shot”. Then, the odds are about 1 in a billion of an individual getting dystonia from a flu shot. Or, if we amazingly succeed in vaccinating everyone in the U.S. who does not have a medical reason not to receive the shot for three years, we will see about 1 more case of dystonia.

    I would much rather worry and devote effort to protecting the 100,000 people who are likely to die in those three years from the seasonal flu and the still uncertain but already rising number of people who will die from the H1N1 flu.

  61. #61 superdave
    November 11, 2009

    JB’s recent post was one of the worst I have ever seen from him. He writes about you like Lex Luthor would write about Superman.

  62. #62 superdave
    November 11, 2009

    @muteKi
    yes my school was providing free shots today and ran out of their supply
    This the second time too. I have to get their early next time.

  63. #63 MikeMa
    November 11, 2009

    squirrelelite
    Nice post. Very clear and concise. I suspect JB will not respond. By calling him out, we threaten his livelihood and I believe he is in this for the money not because he is passionate about autism or anything else. Crass commercial exploitation. Snake oil never looked so good.

  64. #64 mk
    November 11, 2009

    It is my considered opinion that Pablo is not a “concern troll.”

    I think it more likely he is a coward. An anti-vax weasel. Bitching and moaning about Orac’s sarcasm and irony rather than addressing the dangerous ignorance that the sarcasm is clearly drawing attention to.

    Those are quite the priorities you got there, Pablo.

  65. #65 squirrelelite
    November 11, 2009

    Yes, MikeMa.

    Judging from the ads at AoA, I wouldn’t be surprised if they would sell you some snake oil.

  66. #66 Zach
    November 11, 2009

    Ok… I’m surrounded by anti-vaccinationists.

    And facebook is making it really easy for them to post “evidence” that supports them.

    My girlfriend’s pregnant and we’re getting vaccinated as soon as we can, but a mutual friend posted the following article about a correlation between vaccination and miscarriages.

    I can see that this is anecdotal evidence and since miscarriages are very common (my doctor told us roughly 1 in 5 babies are ‘naturally aborted’) correlation definitely does not prove causation.

    Does anyone have any reliable evidence which refutes (or confirms) what’s found in this article?:

    http://organichealthadviser.com/archives/shocking-h1n1-swine-flu-vaccine-miscarriage-stores-from-pregnant-women-tell-your-doctors-that-vaccines-and-pregnancy-do-not-mix

    Any input is appreciated. thanks!

  67. #67 a perfect circle
    November 11, 2009

    @64

    Your characterization of Pablo is both wildly unfair and wildly inaccurate. Pablo is a regular on RI and very much a supporter of science-based medicine. Please know what of you speak before hurling insults and accusations around.

  68. #68 Surgery Nurse
    November 11, 2009

    I spoke with my employee health nurse this morning about getting my regular flu shot. She says they ran out this year in 2 weeks, usually they throw away about 400 doses. We have very limited supplies of H1N1 apparently so it is being rationed for those who need it most. Since I’m in a non patient contact position I can’t get it at work. So it’s off to my doctor to get the regular shot, I wonder if they have any of the H1N1.

  69. #69 Cath the Canberra Cook
    November 11, 2009

    I can well imagine an autistic person failing to get the joke in “I was vaccinated and didn’t become autistic, damnit!” In fact, I think one such person missed it on the previous thread. I must go back and check. I do find it hard to imagine a neurotypical person who supports the scientific side failing to get that joke. Though humour does vary, I suppose.

    When I made the joke before, I had two things in mind:
    1. to mock the ridiculous claim that vaccination causes autism.
    2. to suggest that autism is not necessarily an undesirable state.

    Now, of course not all autists are savants, but I have actually met several who are very smart people and find their atypical brain wiring to be quite helpful in their chosen field. And I’ve read of many more. It may be difficult to manage well, but having an autistic child is not the end of the world. The stigma the anti-vaccers heap on the autistic is a problem in itself, even before you get to their horrendous crank “cures”.

  70. #70 mk
    November 11, 2009

    @67…

    OK, I see… and I’ll take your word for it.

    So please disregard “anti-vax” in my last comment. Nothing else, just “anti-vax.”

    Cheers.

  71. #71 han
    November 11, 2009

    Lay off Pablo, mk. Jeez.

  72. #72 mk
    November 11, 2009

    Pablo needs to get some perspective. And possibly a life.

  73. #73 MikeMa
    November 11, 2009

    mk,
    Pablo has been a consistently literate, pro-vax, pro-science poster. He is, to my mind, a little sensitive about this one issue but on an outrage scale of 1 to 10 with brian coming in at 12, Pablo’s sensitivity earns him a cool 2 in my book. Everyone has their buttons.

  74. #74 daijiyobu
    November 11, 2009

    Per “logorrheic”:

    now, I teach medical terminology / etymology.

    So, you’ve said ‘verbosity’ perhaps in the vernacular, but more so as ‘flow of words’ in the medical-archane:

    -rrhea is flow; and logos, of course, is words; and ‘ic’ means of.

    But, I like the Greco-Roman verbiage better, a.k.a. the Hellenoitalic.

    Yes, Orac, I often skip to your conclusion — there be SO much verbiage. Keep it up.

    That’s a matter of trust — you conclusion is parsimonious er your argument.

    Me, I’m quite rationed / sparse in terms of my verbiage.

    Which reminds me of The Edge, of U2:

    who either gets to the heart of things with his SPARSE guitar method, or repeats what he does as a digital delay.

    Except, of course, he rocks.

    -r.c.

  75. #75 Marie
    November 11, 2009

    It’s amazing how irrational people can be when it comes to vaccination. My high school is offering H1N1 vaccinations next week and one girl in my history class asked me if I was going to get it. I replied that of course I was and she told me that she wasn’t going to get it. When asked why, she said that she’d heard that it can have a lot of bad side effects. She had heard this from ‘her mom’s friends’ and various other such sources. She also said that she doesn’t see the point since it’s “just the flu”.

    I attempted to explain to her that this strain is particularly dangerous for those in our age group and that even if she gets it and is fine, there’s still the risk that she could pass it on to others in high-risk groups, but she was still not convinced. I’m going to bring her a copy of the CDC information sheet on the vaccine tomorrow, but somehow I doubt I’ll be able to convince her.

  76. #76 mythusmage
    November 11, 2009

    Sign you’ve gotten a bad H1N1 Flu shot…

    You can light up a room all by yourself.

    (Any others?)

  77. #77 mandydax
    November 11, 2009

    I got the H1N1 ALV mist and changed demographics within a week! That vaccine gave me birthday!

  78. #78 DrWonderful
    November 11, 2009

    “Sadly, I have not become autistic”…did you really say this? What an insensitive ogre. Right or wrong about the vaccination/autism relationship I would expect some sensitivity toward those suffering so deeply from this. Especially considering you are a health professional. You might understand double blind outcome studies but do you understand the human condition? Which you have sworn to treat. Im sorry but you have made us all look bad with that comment.

  79. #79 Deech56
    November 11, 2009

    Well, flu season has started for my son, who called us last night to tell us he was sick – 250 miles away from home and at school. The school is too small for an infirmary, but fortunately there are options in Manhattan – even found out that the Dr. the school uses takes our insurance. The son even found a pharmacy (thanks to the modern conveniences of cell phone, Google maps and my internet connection).

    My daughter (mom of a 5-month-old preemie) got her H1N1 shot last week. Husband will get his tomorrow. I’m hoping my seasonal shot will want to stimulate a cross protective immune response.

  80. #80 MoM
    November 11, 2009

    I’m not currently on the priority list of those eligible for H1N1 vaccine, so I didn’t get mine (yet). I did, however, visit my local health department and talk about when I might be eligible. Then, on my way home, a deer jumped out in front of my car, and I totaled it (the car AND the deer).

    So my question is this. Did my seasonal flu shot, which I got 2 weeks ago, cause this autodeer reaction, or was it my H1N1 rejection that caused it?

  81. #81 Phoenix Woman
    November 11, 2009

    Zach @ 66: Cruise around Science Blogs; I think that topic may have been addressed recently.

    Pablo, now look what you’ve done! DrNotAtAllWonderful’s shown up, joining “For Pablo” and his probable sockpuppet j. ;-p

    Meanwhile, several autistic persons and parents of same have already written in backing up Orac. Of course, now that I’ve said this, DrNotAtAll and For Pablum and j. will now no doubt start posting under new names claiming to be autistic persons Who Support Pablo In His Fight Against Eeeeeevil Orac!

  82. #82 Steve
    November 11, 2009

    I got my Swine Flu shot on Halloween and have suffered no ill effects, though I find myself making squealing noises, diving into mud puddles, and rolling around.

    Several of my friends have had a heart valve replaced by a pig valve, and they assure that this behavior is normal and I will get used to it!

  83. #83 Phoenix Woman
    November 11, 2009

    Zach @ 66: Here you go: http://www.cdc.gov/H1N1flu/vaccination/pregnant_qa.htm

    Which reminds me: The last comment in the previous thread is by an apparently sincere person named Danielle, who says her brother in the UK has stage four cancer of the esophagus (bad) which has spread to his liver (really bad). He’s asked her to research metronomic therapy, which looks, from what I’ve found online, to be an experimental usage of chemotherapy. Anyway, I’m sure there are people here who can help her out, so if you’re bored with the fight here you could go do a good deed and let her know if this is something worth trying or if her brother should forego it.

  84. #84 k
    November 11, 2009

    Got my seasonal flu shot in September,
    which improved my social skills. Won’t
    get my H1N1 shot until 29 November (first available slot -
    few batches the county received were
    FluMist). I hope receiving the H1N1
    vaccine won’t continue to diminish my
    Asperger’s – I am afraid of becoming NT!

  85. #85 IR
    November 12, 2009

    OT, but I’m trying to decide whether to get my flu shots or not. I’m a lung transplant recipient, and there has been some growing evidence to show that we (immunosuppressed) don’t develop an immune response to the vaccine. The last two years they have been stressing that anyone in our home needs to make certain they are vaccinated to help prevent us from getting influenza. My doctor has said we can get the vaccine for peace of mind, but he thinks the evidence is showing it probably does not give us any direct benefit.

    I chose not to get the vaccine last year because of the shortage. At the time, I felt I might be taking a shot from someone who was much more likely to benefit from the shot when I myself wasn’t. And I figured I was helping myself in a way by allowing someone else to contribute to the whole herd immunity thing.

    At this point though, I feel like with so many assholes refusing to get the shots when they could and should, I might go ahead and take the vaccination. It seems like the biggest problem is going to be people who should receive the vaccine won’t.

    Any opinion as to whether I’m just rationalizing taking a vaccination from someone who may truly benefit from it?

  86. #86 Dan the Man
    November 12, 2009

    Deech56 “I’m hoping my seasonal shot will want to stimulate a cross protective immune response.”

    Is this true? I didn’t know that the seasonal flu vax could also protect against swine flu. I’m worried about my son catching swine flu. We have to wait a few more months for the mercury free childrens swine flu vax to become available in Australia. He has had the seasonal flu vax and I really hope that it will help to protect him against swine flu too.

  87. #87 Sid Offit
    November 12, 2009

    @IR

    I’m just rationalizing taking a vaccination from someone who may truly benefit from it?
    ————————-
    Looks like you’re on the list. Get the vaccine.

    http://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2009/r090729b.htm
    people from ages 25 through 64 years who are at higher risk for novel H1N1 because of chronic health disorders or compromised immune systems.

  88. #88 Stewart
    November 12, 2009

    @ Zach (#66):

    The information your doctor provided you is correct. Many pregnancies end in miscarriage; even more end before they are recognized. Most miscarriages of recognized pregnancies occur within the first trimester. A quick perusal of the site you posted shows that most of its testimonials are from women who suffered miscarriage within the first trimester. That fits with the known high risk of miscarriage within that time frame – flu shot or no. While I certainly feel sorry for women (and couples) who miscarry, blaming the flu shot here is probably shooting in the dark.

    For an overview (on a site written for healthcare folks, beware of jargon): http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/260495-overview

    On a personal note, my pregnant wife received the H1N1 shot almost 2 weeks ago, and she is now entering the third trimester with no apparent problems.

  89. #89 Prudence
    November 12, 2009

    This may well be heresy, and apologies if someone has brought it up before, but has anyone considered the possibility that Ms Jennings was merely after her 15 mins in the spotlight? And that AoA and Dr Buttar were happy to go along for the ride?

    After that kid in the balloon, I’m just a cynical old cow.

  90. #90 brian
    November 12, 2009

    ‘Sadly, I have not become autistic, despite having had all that mercury, formaldehyde, and witches brew of “toxins” injected “directly into by bloodstream.” I guess it’s just not to be.’

    Orac, its not adults who get autism from vaccines, its tiny children…all the cases of vaccine induced autism are little children. So its no surprise your not autistic.

  91. #91 Prudence
    November 12, 2009

    Hey Brian,

    I grew up in SE Asia and have had *every* vaccination under the sun– cholera, typhoid, yellow fever, even smallpox– as a baby and small child. All chock-a-block full of preservatives. And I continue to have them. So, why aren’t I autistic? Or any of my contemporaries who had the vaccines?

    What I DON’T have is terrible diseases which would have killed me straight away, and which continue to wipe out large numbers of children in the developing world every day. I know, I’ve seen it in the course of doing my job.

    Your logic seems straightforward: vaccines cause autism. So why not me?

  92. #92 Robin Levett
    November 12, 2009

    @brian #89:

    all the cases of vaccine induced autism are little children Invisible Pink Unicorns.

    Fixed it for you.

  93. #93 Robin Levett
    November 12, 2009

    Oops – html fail – read “little children” as struck out.

  94. #94 Deech56
    November 12, 2009

    RE: Dan the Man (#85): In keeping with the spirit of this thread, I was being a bit facetious. I doubt that there is any cross reactivity; the reason H1N1 is going like gangbusters is that it is different from the strains that have been prevalent over the last few decades, and which are in the seasonal shot.

  95. #95 Prudence
    November 12, 2009

    I actually went to AofA and posted what I thought was a fair comment– no sign of it having been “approved” on the boards yet. However, I did find this *gem* of a comment mocking Orac’s hard work to get into, and excel at, medical school.

    “WOW…17 credits in one semester? I don’t know how he did it. (Insert eye roll here)
    In chiropractic college, I took 28-31 credits per trimester! (It’s a 5 yr program crammed into 3 1/3 yrs.)”

    Posted by: Anne | November 11, 2009 at 01:04 PM

    CHIROPRACTIC COLLEGE!!!1! I think I peed myself a little laughing so hard.

  96. #96 Question for Prudence
    November 12, 2009

    In regards to #90:

    Prudence,
    Does everyone in the world have the exact same reaction to medications, or do some people react differently? Can everyone in the world all eat the same foods, or are some people unable to eat them due to allergies?

    I thought you people were scientists…..

  97. #97 Antaeus Feldspar
    November 12, 2009

    This may well be heresy, and apologies if someone has brought it up before, but has anyone considered the possibility that Ms Jennings was merely after her 15 mins in the spotlight? And that AoA and Dr Buttar were happy to go along for the ride?

    It is certainly a possibility, but I would tend to doubt it myself. If you were cynically setting out to pretend you had an illness you didn’t have, wouldn’t you study it beforehand, to make sure you were simulating it accurately? If Desiree studied the symptoms of dystonia and then produced those performances, it was an amazing failure. I find it easier to believe that she got the idea into her head that something of the sort would happen and then interpreted every non-perfect movement on her part as confirmation.

  98. #98 MI Dawn
    November 12, 2009

    @Prudence #94: I looked at some chiro college lists. It seems that 50 minutes in a classroom is equal to 1 credit hour! So, yes, maybe Anne was in a classroom (or doing clinical) for that many hours a trimester, poor thing.

    On the other hand, as a nursing student, I was on the floors of the hospital doing patient care for 16 hours/week, and that class was considered a 3 credit class a trimester. And that didn’t count the other classes I was taking. Medical school for Orac (since we are both Un of Mich grads), I’m sure, was the same. Maybe the class was listed as being “only” 3-4 credits, but I’ll bet he was in the hospital or in class a heck of a lot more hours a week than Anne.

  99. #99 mk
    November 12, 2009

    From Pablo: “If you are going to make fun of the correlation/causation problem, then the better approach is the one like techskeptic, who notes an effect after the vaccine was given, or the “your H1N1 vaccine “caused” J.B. to put up another loving tribute to you on AofA today” – those are funny, and in many cases, instructive.

    Intended or not, “I had a shot and didn’t become autistic (or catch dystonia or develop an auto-immune disease)” still comes off as mocking and condescending. Stick with the positive effects.

    (in terms of childish and tiresome, it’s still got nothing on “dihydrogen monoxide,” which is exceedingly lame)”

    Sorry MikeMa…

    The above, to me, is so pathetic and missing the point it deserves all the mockery one can muster. Telling someone like Orac how to construct the proper snark is simply moronic. No matter that he claims not to be anti-vax. In fact I’d say it’s worse because of that.

    Yes, Brian is a 12 out of 10 on the idiocy scale. For you, this stupidity from Pablo is only a 2. Fine. This and his subsequent comments to my mind rank much higher. So… sorry, but screw that humorless dork.

  100. #100 Richard Eis
    November 12, 2009

    -Does everyone in the world have the exact same reaction to medications, or do some people react differently? Can everyone in the world all eat the same foods, or are some people unable to eat them due to allergies?-

    The problem with your statement is that vaccines HAVE been tested for causing autism and this has been found to be false. They are making fun of the anti-vaccine loons who think individual anecdotes trump mutliple sources of evidence.

    Also, should I deny the world peanuts because I am allergic, even if nuts are an incredibly good food source?

  101. #101 mk
    November 12, 2009

    Damn. Bad html skills there. Italics were to extend to the line just above “Sorry MikeMa…”

  102. #102 attack_laurel
    November 12, 2009

    (You said to use this thread to expound on what we think of JB’s post, so…)

    You know what really hacks me off about JB and all the concern trolls (who are not Pablo, who contributes regularly, and just has a sensitive spot, much as I do about certain descriptions of mental illness/injury, and it’s up to Orac how he wants to deal with that, holy run-on parenthetical sentence Batman)?

    They keep using words in association with autism like “terrible”, “suffering”, “lost”, and so on, with the implication that autism is an awful, awful thing, worse than a death sentence. So they demonize vaccines, even as children are dying, and tell you to put your “broken” kid through misery while they experiment with various kinds of nasty woo to try and make your child “normal”, which is their code word for “the only desirable kind of child”.

    This is the deep to the core insult that they perpetrate every day towards the neurodiverse members of our society, under the guise of “fixing” them (got enough scare quotes yet? Yummy, yummy scare quotes). This “normalization” is used as justification for real torture, just like it was used to justify “normalizing” deaf people in the 1960s.

    This is a horrible attitude towards autism. It says “you are not acceptable as you are – we are not going to adapt to your needs, you have to be forced to fit in with what we consider acceptable parameters. We don’t like scary or different people, they make us uncomfortable, so we’re going to punish you until you act in a manner that we define as correct”.

    It makes me shudder. These people are evil. They don’t want autism to be considered a normal, if non-mainstream, way of being, because they can’t handle the idea that the human body/mind has infinite permutations, and that isn’t bad, it just requires non-typical responses and extra help to navigate through the world. In their worldview, difference is not something we as a society need to learn to accommodate and embrace, it’s wrong and sad and terrible, and must be stamped out, so instead of advocating for the extra help that families with autism need, they waste their money demonizing the one thing that has changed the face of childhood as we know it.

    And yet they say people like Orac are the bad ones. Their arrogance and bigotry towards the neuro-diverse boggle the mind.

  103. #103 attack_laurel
    November 12, 2009

    Uh, make that “the one thing that has changed the face of childhood mortality as we know it”. Thanks. :)

  104. #104 Deech56
    November 12, 2009

    Dan the Man, I may stand corrected. This week’s Nature has an article describing the latest research:

    [Peter] Palese’s group also found that previous exposure to the H1N1 and H3N2 subtypes of seasonal influenza limits the ability of exposed animals to become infected with the pandemic H1N1, which supports the idea that a seasonal flu infection or vaccine might offer some cross-protection against swine flu.

  105. #105 Luna_the_cat
    November 12, 2009

    @Corina et al. & @Pablo:

    Eh, fair enough. I do get twitchy about certain sore spots myself and tend to get super-twitchy when there is an accusation of someone being a concern troll or “not having a sense of humor” when something has clearly landed on a (fairly sane) sore spot. Maybe I shouldn’t have jumped in on this one.

    That said:
    mk, you are truly coming off as a vicious, self-righteous and humorless dork.

  106. #106 Matt M
    November 12, 2009

    Yesterday the pediatrician’s office stated (on their special flu vax status phone line) that they had H1N1 shots and mist in. So, my wife went and *snatched* our two children out of their schools, and took them down to the office in the middle of the day, to beat the rush.

    Side effects of the vaccine, in these two cases, may include lower grades in Physics and Spanish, as these are the classes that these kids missed.

  107. #107 Kate
    November 12, 2009

    My goodness! The concern trolling is so thick in here you can barely see between the passive-aggressive, badly thought-out commentary!

    Pablo: Your point was made about 75 comments ago. We get it. You’re upset. Let it go, man. Just let it go.

    To the “VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM RAAAAAR!” crowd: Oh geeze. Here we go again. Until the day comes that you provide actual EVIDENCE your position is based solely on anecdotes and a lack of understanding of the scientific process. But that’s okay, us rational people will just wait patiently while you figure out the basics of grade four science.

    To those who do not find Autism funny: I’m “on the spectrum”. I find my “problem” hilarious. (Mostly that’s because I’ve never seen it as a problem, despite the fact that the rest of the world seems to expend a great deal of their energy telling me I’m broken, needing to be “fixed”, and “Oh, poor, poor you!”. There’s no “Poor me”. I like me. I’m happy with me. I understand me and love me. So, why can’t these “AUTISM IS THE END OF THE WORLD” idiots give acceptance and understanding a try for a change?)

    Just remember, if you’re all up in arms and getting your panties in a twist by being offended on someone else’s behalf, you’re probably going to come off as a combination concern troll/douchebag.

  108. #108 Katharine
    November 12, 2009

    I wonder if the people who are going ‘HURF DURF THAT’S NOT FUNNY’ in this thread realize Orac is making fun of the antivaxxers, not autistic people.

  109. #109 Joseph C.
    November 12, 2009

    Orac, its not adults who get autism from vaccines, its tiny children…all the cases of vaccine induced autism are little children. So its no surprise your not autistic.

    Science kitteh givez u a fails.

  110. #110 Prudence
    November 12, 2009

    #96 Re: “I thought you people were scientists”

    At *no* point have I ever even hinted that I am a scientist, quite the opposite, however, in the course of my job, I spend a great deal of time in the developing world and see, first hand, the tragic, heartrending consequences of children who do not have access to live-saving vaccines (as well as clean water, shelter and security).

    Here’s the problem to my mind: you just went ahead and assumed this “fact”, which is, I feel, symptomatic of a wider issue; in short– critical thinking u r doin it rong.

  111. #111 B.C.
    November 12, 2009

    105, agreed MK is acting vicious. mk, read months and months of posts for yourself to see how off your comments about Pablo are. Why waste space just to be nasty with no contributing info?

    My personal view- why do people with high functioning autism seem to think it is ‘funny’ or ‘not a bad thing’ for ‘all’ with autism. Some of us have children who are completely non functional, wont eat without a tube, wont communicate in any way, and are completely dependant on 24 hr/day care givers at 17yrs old. So no, I am not offended by Orac’s comment, I am offended by others’ comments telling people they shouldnt feel what they feel. Should’nt we all have concern for any children affected in such a severe manner with anything. It is not funny at all and not good in any way to be like that.

  112. #112 mk
    November 12, 2009

    @ Luna the cat…

    Vicious and self righteous and a dork? Absolutely!! ;^}

    But humorless? Me? Hey, I found Orac’s post pretty funny! And if Pablo said something funny and I missed it please let me know what it was.

  113. #113 BoxNDox
    November 12, 2009

    My son and I both had our H1N1 shots yesterday. No soreness or any other side effects for either of us. I even piled on the Hg by having sushi for lunch the same day

    This is in contrast to the seasonal flu shot I had about a month ago. That one made my arm a little sore. So I guess I’m bucking the trend on which one makes your arm hurt more.

  114. #114 Joseph
    November 12, 2009

    My personal view- why do people with high functioning autism seem to think it is ‘funny’ or ‘not a bad thing’ for ‘all’ with autism. Some of us have children who are completely non functional, wont eat without a tube, wont communicate in any way, and are completely dependant on 24 hr/day care givers at 17yrs old.

    It might be inappropriate to say it’s ‘funny’ although I don’t think they were referring to ‘all’ with autism, but only themselves. Certainly, there are probably autistic people dying of cancer or in a comma right now. No one would suggest that’s ‘funny.’ Nor are they making fun of parents who have to care for their intellectually disabled children.

  115. #115 Dangerous Bacon
    November 12, 2009

    Just read Handley’s stream-of-vomit piece attacking Orac over the Desiree Jennings affair. The man is hilarious, you’ve got to admit. I loved the part where he announces that other physicians don’t blog, then in the next paragraph goes after Dr. Steven Novella for blog commentary on Jennings.

    What a maroon.

    I just realized though that the H1N1 vaccine does have a side effect – hair loss! There’s a little bald patch on my left arm where I got the shot…wait, that’s where I ripped off the bandaid.

    Nevermind.

    One worry – I can feel my immune system revving in uncontrollable overdrive from the vaccine – potentially devastating as compared to the natural stimulation from getting sick with H1N1 and having a kazillion virions deluging my system naturally. When, oh when will natural sickness and death be recognized as a necessary, natural part of life?

    Remember, severe illness is a good thing…but if it gets a bit out of hand, there are fine doctors like Nutter Buttar and Wakefield to take care of us.

  116. #116 mk
    November 12, 2009

    @ Luna and BC…

    I get a strong impression you don’t really know what “vicious” means.

    Or maybe you’re just extremely sensitive. Oh Well.

  117. #117 Jen in TX
    November 12, 2009

    “One worry – I can feel my immune system revving in uncontrollable overdrive from the vaccine – potentially devastating as compared to the natural stimulation from getting sick with H1N1 and having a kazillion virions deluging my system naturally.”

    Some Tylenol should take care of that little problem…

    http://www.healthjockey.com/2009/11/04/common-pain-relievers-may-dilute-power-of-flu-shots-discovers-research/

  118. #118 Sandy
    November 12, 2009

    All six of my kids rcvd their H1N1 yesterday and not a one has developed autism yet!!! Damn it!

    However, my 13 yr old son showed signs of it it having an effect on his PCD (pseudo comedian disorder) when he developed a paralyzed arm immediately after receiving the injection. I chose to ignore the symptoms and of course the paralysis subsided shortly afterwards. Although having a child with PCD has often taken me to the brink of insanity, paxil and ativan help me cope with his pseudo-comedic manifestations.

  119. #119 red rabbit
    November 12, 2009

    @ Zach #66: as has already been pointed out, your doctor gave you good information. About 20% of pregnancies, possibly more, end in miscarriage in the first trimester. These are sad for sure, but a natural occurrence, and a consequence of our imperfect and adaptable biology: though we want to picture our wanted babies as perfect, the fact of the matter is many of these miscarriages happen because these embryos have reached a point where some imperfection interferes with their development and makes them nonviable.

    A quick read of the postings on your link shows women having first trimester miscarriages. They so wanted these pregnancies that they are willing to blame anything they did in the previous few days… they are blaming themselves and then passing this off on an “evil vaccine” because the guilt is difficult to bear. It’s not their fault either.

    Anecdotally (this is not evidence, either) I have a patient who blames *not* getting vaccinated for her second trimester miscarriage. She got flu, and started bleeding after a week of violent coughing.

    I doubt this to be the cause, but I will never convince her.

  120. #120 Mr. B
    November 12, 2009

    1) I am not offended by his references to “catching” autism, I find it quite amusing because people literally tell me tehy don’t want their kids to catch autism from the MMR shot so they delayed it (ZOINKS!)

    I would be amused, were it not for the fact that the pediatric nurse who saw my 16-month-old son (the younger of two; my elder son has autism) today for a check-up suggested delaying the MMR until at least 18 months. She claims that she doesn’t believe that there is any connection between the MMR and autism but suggested delaying until after our son sees a developmental pediatrician in January (I think?). I was furious when my wife told me that the shot hadn’t been given; the only plausible reason I can see is that we will be able to say authoritatively that the MMR did not cause autism in the younger if he ends up having autism, which is a very real possibility at this point from certain signs. But I highly doubt that we’ll get a diagnosis at less than 2 years, there are already signs to suggest this (like flapping), and that certainly doesn’t seem like enough to justify the risk of my son getting measles, mumps, or rubella.

    Anti-vaxers, you infuriate me. If my son gets one of these very preventable diseases, I will raise hell.

  121. #121 Dangerous Bacon
    November 12, 2009

    Joseph: “Certainly, there are probably autistic people…in a comma right now.”

    That wouldn’t have happened if Andrew Wakefield had been able to examine their semicolons.

  122. #122 Tanya
    November 12, 2009

    I’m only commenting to say that I absolutely envy every damn one of you that was able to receive the H1N1 vaccine. Our supplies were delayed and I’m currently in the process of gaining my immunity the hard way. *blargh*

  123. #123 Dr. Smart
    November 12, 2009

    I know of an eight year old boy who was fine one day, got the swine flu shot and died the next day.

    What about Washington Redskins cheerleader who is now unable to walk or speak after the stupid vaccine?

    In any rate, thre is no way in hell that I will be taking this dangerous untested vaccine or any vaccine for that matter.

    I’ll take mu chances with Colloidal Silver, Garlic, and Goldenseal. At least I won’t be paralyzed or autistic.

    Every day there is a new case of death from this swine flu vaccine. Most of the major news media outlets flat out ignore the stories. Why? Could it be that they are related to the grand “mornicas ignaramus maximus”?

    My sister in law is a nurse who is pregnant and will not take the swine flu shot. Good for her and her baby. Even the doctor at the hospital has refused to vaccinate his own children. He deserves Fox news attention.

  124. #124 Prudence
    November 12, 2009

    #123 Huh, sounds like a big deal, so the case of the 8 year old boy will be in the newspapers somewhere, won’t it? Where’s the link? Or are you just making shit up “Dr” “Smart”?

    I’m going to go ahead and diagnose the latter. And an advanced case of burning stoopid.

  125. #125 Chris
    November 12, 2009

    not Dr. Smart:

    I know of an eight year old boy who was fine one day, got the swine flu shot and died the next day.

    Are you leaving out some details, like perhaps he was in a car accident? If it was real, Fox News would be all over it. Just post the link.

    Not a Doctor continues:

    What about Washington Redskins cheerleader who is now unable to walk or speak after the stupid vaccine?

    So you are just a drive-by troll who has not read the multiple postings on her on this blog. Of course. She is also covered on this blog.

    Clueless Troll keeps going on:

    I’ll take mu chances with Colloidal Silver, Garlic, and Goldenseal. At least I won’t be paralyzed or autistic.

    Which shows you really do not have an idea. Silver works on surfaces, not in the body. The cheerleader could run, which is the opposite of paralyzed (oh, did you miss that she is now cured?). Do you have any evidence that adults become autistic from vaccines?

  126. #126 Prometheus
    November 12, 2009

    “Dr. Smart” (#123) comments:

    In [sic] any rate, thre [sic] is no way in hell that I will be taking this dangerous untested vaccine or any vaccine for that matter.

    Good on you! That means there will be more for me and my family! We’ve been having a hard time getting it.

    I’ll take mu [sic] chances with Colloidal Silver, Garlic, and Goldenseal. At least I won’t be paralyzed or autistic.

    Dead, maybe, but not paralyzed or autistic.

    Every day there is a new case of death from this swine flu vaccine.

    And you base this startling assertion on…..?

    Most of the major news media outlets flat out ignore the stories.

    When you say “most of the major news media outlets”, that seems to imply that some have. Which “major news media outlets” have been reporting these deaths from the swine flu vaccine? The major network news companies (you know, ABC, CBS, NBC/MSNBC, CNN, Fox, BBC, Deutche Welt, etc.) haven’t had anything on it.

    Eagerly awaiting your data.

    Prometheus

  127. #127 a-non
    November 12, 2009

    Every day there is a new case of death from this swine flu vaccine. Most of the major news media outlets flat out ignore the stories.

    Ah…the completely unprovable assertion that the media is “covering up” swine flu vaccine deaths. Believe me, if the vaccine was causing deaths, every single one of those cretins in the mainstream media would be climbing all over each other to report it.

  128. #128 Bill
    November 13, 2009

    I’d just like to remind everyone that there is still no credible evidence that the person in question was ever diagnosed with dystonia.

    Were that the case, a simple signature on a HIPPA form would allow AOA or GR access to her medical records which they could have posted as proof that a doctor actually did diagnose her with dystonia.

    I hope in the future people will be a little more skeptical of self-reporters who won’t provide proof for the diagnosed condition they claim.

  129. #129 Luna_the_cat
    November 13, 2009

    Ha, the anti-vaxxer strategy delineated and made simple!

    http://granades.com/2009/11/11/how-to-generate-scientific-controversy/

  130. #130 Dangerous Bacon
    November 13, 2009

    Dr. Smart: “I’ll take mu chances with Colloidal Silver, Garlic, and Goldenseal. At least I won’t be paralyzed or autistic.”

    Take enough of that colloidal silver and your skin could turn a lovely, permanent blue-gray color. If more did this we could tell at a glance who the antivaxers are. Garlic has its uses, but I hope you aren’t depending on goldenseal for any significant immune-boosting effects. Plus, reliance on this herb is helping to eradicate it in the wild (populations are threatened by overzealous harvesting).

    “Every day there is a new case of death from this swine flu vaccine. Most of the major news media outlets flat out ignore the stories. Why? Could it be that they are related to the grand “mornicas ignaramus maximus”?”

    The reason you aren’t seeing such stories in the news is that responsible journalists try to run factual stories and not repeat hysterical and unfounded rumors.
    Have you considered “mornicas ignaramus maximus” as a motto for your family seal?

    “Even the doctor at the hospital has refused to vaccinate his own children.”

    That must be one heck of a major hospital if all it has for staff is “the” doctor. Speaking of which, what sort of doctor are you? Chiropractor? Naturopath? Rug doctor?

    Here’s hoping you won’t be passing on influenza to some high risk potential victims through your ignorance.

  131. #131 gaiainc
    November 13, 2009

    Happily vaccinating people with seasonal flu and H1N1 yesterday. I had both in clinic to give to my high risk patients. Woot! Now if I could have had these supplies about a month earlier, I might not be seeing 1-2 flu cases a day. I don’t remember flu season being this bad before, but that could just be my selective memory. I also don’t remember as much resistance to vaccines before either. Multiple patients have asked me if I’ve gotten vaccinated and I reply, heck yah, and my son too. If I could get his father to get vaccinated I would, but he gets too vasovagal with shots. I’m lucky if I’ll be able to get him to get the chickenpox vaccine.

    And my son is not autistic, despite being up to date on his vaccines.

  132. #132 Kemist
    November 13, 2009

    This is more or les related, but a canadian university professor in my field (organic chemistry) just died from H1N1.

    Keith Fagnou was 38, and had no other apparent health issue. He had three kids.

    University professor dies from H1N1

  133. #133 Jess
    November 15, 2009

    I just can’t keep up with all the lunacy. I live in Toronto and stood in line with my 12-year-old to get her the H1N1 vaccine 2 weeks ago because she has severe asthma. A week earlier a perfectly healthy 13-year-old in our city died of H1N1. I don’t have it yet. No physician is carrying it here.

    Have you seen the latest on H1N1 on Autism Speaks:

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/11/h1n1-fact-or-fiction-by-barbara-loe-fisher.html

    Talk about your cocktail of non-sequiturs.

  134. #134 Calli Arcale
    November 16, 2009

    I got my 2-year-old vaccinated last Friday. I was very happy to be able to get her vaccinated, but still can’t get her older sister or myself vaccinated, due to not enough vaccine available. They say that will change, but I’m still a bit apprehensive about that.

    My 2-year-old was quite pleased to be vaccinated, though. She’s a tough cookie, and shots do not generally bother her. (Winced when the needle went in, but that was it.) She spent all weekend telling everyone who would listen that she had a flu shot. ;-)

  135. #135 DCurbanmom
    November 16, 2009

    It’s been amazing to me to watch some of the anti-vax people claim that ‘anecdotal evidence + google research + the words of Bill Maher = Science’. I watch it daily on a messageboard that is designed to help mothers get real information on the H1N1 shot (i.e. which clinic is open, how many days for a booster) and see it get overrun with trolls.

    It’s a never ending battle.

    http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/forums/show/48.page

  136. #136 Jess
    November 16, 2009

    Kemist, did you see this? Profiles of 12 Canadians who have died from h1n1. Sobering reading all around.

    http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=2170058