Respectful Insolence

It’s rare that I encounter a bit of nonsense that allows me to deploy two of my favorite rhetorical devices. First, it lets me pull out one of my favorite clips from one of my favorite movies, in which the immortal line, “Help! Help! I’m being repressed!” was first uttered. Second, it lets me repeat once again yet another variation of Inigo Montoya’s immortal words. It’s a two-fer! Not surprisingly, it’s courtesy of the anti-vaccine crank blog we’ve all come to know and love (well, I love it because it has provided me such a target-rich environment for taking on quackery and woo, although I hate it because, well, it promotes anti-vaccine quackery and woo). Yes, we’re talkin’ Age of Autism, and this time it’s Katie Wright crying repression and censorship in a little screed she called Sebelius Asks Media to Censor Autism Debate.

“Censor.” You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I’ll show you why. First, let’s look at what provoked Wright’s little bit of willful misinterpretation:

There are groups out there that insist that vaccines are responsible for a variety of problems, despite all scientific evidence to the contrary. We (the office of Secretary of Health and Human Services) have reached out to media outlets to try to get them not to give the views of these people equal weight in their reporting.


Apparently this came from a Readers Digest article in which Kathleen Sebelius, Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, was being interviewed about H1N1. During that interview, she was asked what could be done about the public mistrust of vaccines. Reality-based regular readers of this blog (as opposed to some of the anti-vaccine extremists out there who monitor this locale to see what the “other side” is up to) would almost certainly find nothing objectionable in what Sebelius said at all. Indeed, time and time again, I myself have complained about the lazy “tell both sides” imperative so many journalists seem to consider absolutlely essential, an imperative that leads to journalistic atrocities in which for every story about vaccines, an anti-vaccine loon (often from Generation Rescue) has to be interviewed to give “the other side”) or for every story about teaching evolution in public school science classes, a creationist loon has to be interviewed to give “the other side.” The point, of course, is that, when it comes to certain manufactroversies, no matter how without a basis in science the crank side is, somehow journalists feel compelled to include a crank on equal footing with scientists, be it for controversy or to tug at the heartstrings with the case of a parent struggling to raise a severely autistic child and blaming vaccines for the child’s plight. It’s good to see that Sebelius actually understands what’s wrong with so much medical and science journalism today.

Katie Wright, on the other hand, clearly does not. Oh, man, she doesn’t understand:

That’s right. Kathleen Sebelius, the Secretary of HHS, has asked newspapers, magazines, television journalists, who knows who else- specifically NOT to listen to parents and scientists in the autism community, not to respect their concerns, not to take seriously the condition of chronically ill children with autism and to disregard a growing body of evidence questioning the safety of our infant and toddlers’ immunization schedule.

It never ceases to amaze me how talented various AoA denizens are at constructing straw men. Indeed, truly has Wright constructed a straw man of sufficient size and bulk that it could easily be used for a Burning Man ceremony with the flames of burning stupid consuming all. Or maybe Wright is prepping for yet another remake of the 1973 horror cult classic The Wicker Man, with reason and science in the role of the hapless policeman who blunders into the mysterious isle in the Hebrides looking for a missing girl. (You’ll know what I mean if you’ve seen the movie; if you haven’t, click on its title.) In any case, Sebelius said nothing of the sort. She simply said that reporters should not give equal weight to the views of anti-vaccine loons, not that they shouldn’t listen to parents. Also note the clever coopting of terms. She conflates the anti-vaccine movement (although, of course, she would not call it that) with “parents and scientists in the autism community.” You hear that, those of you with autistic children who accept the science and don’t buy into the pseudoscience claiming that vaccines cause autism? You aren’t part of the “autism community.” Or so it would seem, if Wright’s tone is any indication. Sebelius isn’t urging anyone to disregard anything. She’s simply urging media outlets to be a bit more responsible in how they pair the fear mongering cranks with real scientists.

But if you thought Wright was prepping for a remake of The Wicker Man with her introduction, you ain’t seen nothing yet. Apparently in the remake of the movie, an army of wicker men, alight with the fires of burning stupid, overrun the earth in a Blitzkrieg action, searing all intelligence from the face of the earth as they march. At least, that’s the only explanation I can think of for this bit of hyperbole:

I am taking Ms. Sebelius at her word. Ms. Sebelius has unilaterally said that she knows that every single American parent who saw their child regress post vaccination or experience a severe adverse reaction is wrong and she knows better.

Uh, no. Sebelius said nothing of the sort. She simply asked the media to stop giving equal time to pseudoscience. Her words have no force other than that of a Cabinet secretary; they do not have the force of law. It’s also highly unlikely the media will listen, unfortunately. Not that any of that stops Wright from turning the paranoia and anti-government hysteria up to 11:

Ms. Sebelius has ordered, suggested, beseeched, implored (?) American journalists NOT to “give these people (anyone concerned with vaccine safety) equal weight in their reporting” because she has decided by informal governmental decree that the debate is closed?

Sounds like something that would happen in a communist dictatorship, right? Was there a similar decree when “citizen dissidents” questioned the safety of hormone replacement therapy for women? Was the media instructed to ignore those nuisances who were suspicious of a long denied link between hormone therapy and breast cancer? Did the HHS order a first amendment crackdown of those trouble-making women who had long complained that Fibromalgia was a real disease and not a psychosomatic condition. Menaces everywhere who dared to question medical authorities! They must be silenced! You have got to be kidding.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about Wright with the allusions to a communist dictatorship. I suppose I should be grateful for small favors in that she at least managed to refrain from likening Sebelius to Hitler or Goebbels or some Nazi official shutting down any dissent in Germany during the Nazi regime. It must have taken great restraint on Wright’s part to control herself, as I strongly suspect that she must have really, really wanted to play the Hitler card.

The rest of Wright’s rant is a repetition of frequent anti-vaccine talking points that we’ve all heard a million times before. They aren’t sufficiently interesting or different for me to bother with them, as I’ve dealt with their ilk more times than I can count anymore, and I don’t happen to be in the mood right now to do it again. What I’m more in the mood for is to point out how Wright’s little rant is of a piece with virtually every other form of crankery, pseudoscience, and quackery in that she is crying “persecution” and whining that the pseudoscience she believes in is being “suppressed,” using Sebelius’ reasonable complaint about the press as a jumping off point to do so. And the similarity hits home when she decides to go full mental jacket on Poul Thorsen, parrotting the latest anti-vaccine smear machine designed to distract from the recent ruling from the Autism Omnibus and then cranking it up beyond 11 to 12, 13, 14, 15, even 20. Oh, hell, she’s even taking it to arguably libelous extremes:

It is absolutely frightening that a wanted felon has such an enormous and pervasive influence on the lives of our children.

So I am trying to get this straight Ms. Sebelius. Help me out here. We should take lying thieves with no interest in operating in the public’s interest at their word but the media should ignore parents and legitimate scientists who question the validity of vaccine science research performed by alleged criminals? I’m really confused!

The crazy is strong in this one, Luke.

As I’ve pointed out, Thorsen was at best a minor co-author in the Danish study that forms but a part of the body of evidence exonerating thimerosal-containing vaccines as a cause of autism, and it’s not even clear that he did anything wrong yet. Given the track record of AoA, the more they attack Thorsen, the more I wonder if he even did anything wrong. However the attack on Thorsen reminded me of something I saw earlier. This something was a perfect case of crank magnetism in the form of a post on a different home of pseudoscience, specifically the pseudoscience known as evolution denial or creationism. Bruce Chapman of the Discovery institute opines:

Do you still contend that scientists are a breed apart, a superior species that should hold others, mere mortals, in awe? Then please digest the latest scandal about money, greed and “science”, and this time keep in your mind’s eye the thousands, maybe millions, of infants that are affected by autism. It is their welfare that must now come into focus.

Won’t somebody think of the children? Actually, “intelligent design” is about the children–corrupting the children’s scientific education that is. Chapman also seems to think that challenging the Danish studies might mean that the science showing that vaccines do not cause autism should come into disrepute and that that might mean that vaccines might actually cause autism, just as creationists think that if they can discredit one major study about evolution it means that they’ve falsified evolution:

Danish scientist Paul Thorsen has disappeared, apparently, along with a couple million dollars of U.S. public money and some of the data that formed the basis for studies in which he participated. Now those enormously influential studies–supposedly disproving any connection between mercury and autism–are coming into question, and deservedly so.

Why deservedly so? Here’s a word of advice for Mr. Chapman: Stick to evolution. You still embarrass the hell out of yourself every time you opine about ID, but you have just embarrassed yourself even more. In fact, I wonder if someone pointed that out to him. His post originally had this ending:

Maybe the studies were valid. By all means, let’s find out. In fact, a thorough and independent public investigation is imperative. Since the Center for Disease Control’s money was involved, surely the CDC should not be the only body looking into this matter. Meanwhile, tell us again why scientists who dissent from the “consensus” in this scientific field, or any other, must be silenced.

Note the ending in the current version of the post, which has been watered down. I prefer the original because it shows very much how the mindset of creationists is very much like the mindset of anti-vaccine zealots. Both want to paint themselves as “dissenters” rather than cranks. Both want to tear down scientists, because it is science itself that stands in the way of the acceptance of their beliefs. Discredit scientists, they think, and they can discredit the science. It never occurs to them that science is more than any single scientist and that discrediting a scientist does not necessarily discredit the science unless one can show scientific fraud. Not that cranks don’t try. Indeed, the most recent egregious example is the hype surrounding the e-mails from climate scientists stolen through hacking. It’s what I like to call the “vindication of all kooks” corollary to crank magnetism.

I’ve mentioned this before, but the difference between cranks and real scientists is how much cranks personalize their beliefs. They don’t realize that science is a process, a methodology, not a set of conclusions. They also can’t seem to understand that what science tells us is not purely a belief or set of beliefs; it is a set of conclusions based on observation and experimentation that are continually updated and adjusted as new evidence comes in. In contrast, the beliefs of anti-vaccinationists or creationists, for example, never change their core beliefs, which are that vaccines are evil and cause autism and that evolution is evil and wrong, respectively. Nothing, no amount of evidence, no amount of science will change those core beliefs. To them all science, particularly any mechanism of science that exists to weed out bad science (such as peer review), is “repression” or “censorship.” Any scientific consensus is a conspiracy, “repression,” and/or “censorship. The reason is simple. It’s because science tells denialists that they are wrong and to them that’s censorship.

ADDENDUM: Remember how I (sort of) congratulated Wright for refraining from playing the Hitler card? Naturally, it turns out that at least one of the commenters on AoA is not so “restrained”:

Keep speaking up and being in community. We may have to continue to haul this load on our own longer. Oppression can be tough and that is what this is, oppression, with parents of Autism being like the French Resistance during WWII. I believe the truth will prevail.

Because the scientific community is just like the Nazi occupation and AoA’s brave maverick resistance is just like the French Resistance. I wonder if there is a word for such a delusion.

Comments

  1. #1 provaxmom
    March 17, 2010

    That AoA post is way beyond delusional.

  2. #2 provaxmom
    March 17, 2010

    And hey,if you can’t beat ‘em, let’s join ‘em. They are asking readers to call Seb’s office and complain. Let’s all call and thank her! (202) 205-5445

  3. #3 JohnV
    March 17, 2010

    Yet again, people on AoA complaining about “censorship” = priceless.

  4. #4 Otto
    March 17, 2010

    From Autism Grandma: “Has the media ever mentioned that we, the public, cannot access the VAERS data base? Why is this such a big secret I wonder?”

    Beautiful.

  5. #5 WLU
    March 17, 2010

    “…full mental jacket…”

    Clever combining of pop culture references, or typo?

    Also, any responsible scientists would reply to Chapman’s contention that they are superior with the statement “only at responding to the conditions of a specific local environment through the production of a greater number of reproductively viable offspring”.

    Evolution jokes – awesome.

    “I wonder if there is a word for such a delusion.”

    Schizohitlerism?

    If they really want balance on vaccines, they should have two experts that disagree over which vaccines to give, not whether to give them. There’s a viable argument over the economics of the H1N1 response versus risk (CBC had a broadcast on this on Monday). THAT is something the public could sink their teeth into – was H1N1 vaccination a waste of scarce tax money in a time of economic crisis? Discuss.

    My opinion is – no. Apparently it’s also the dominant strain this flu season.

  6. #6 Kristen
    March 17, 2010

    You hear that, those of you with autistic children who accept the science and don’t buy into the pseudoscience claiming that vaccines cause autism? You aren’t part of the “autism community.” Or so it would seem, if Wright’s tone is any indication.

    This is a phenomenon that is all too familiar to me. I don’t know if I have just been very unlucky with the people I have come in contact with, but I don’t feel welcome in the “autism community”.

    These crazies have hijacked and monopolized the support available to parents who don’t buy their crap.

  7. #7 Terry
    March 17, 2010

    “We should take lying thieves with no interest in operating in the public’s interest at their word but the media should ignore parents and legitimate scientists who question the validity of vaccine science research performed by alleged criminals? I’m really confused!”

    You mean like Andrew Wakefield? I’m confused too!

  8. #8 jim
    March 17, 2010

    I like the bit about science “performed by alleged criminals”. It’s trivial to make any science you don’t like into “research performed by alleged criminals” simply by alleging that the researchers are criminals. It’s like Yes, Minister!

    Sir Humphrey: Say that the findings have been questioned.
    Hacker: What if they haven’t?
    Sir Humphrey: Then question them. Then they have.

  9. #9 Broken Link
    March 17, 2010

    Great take-down. I’m very sad to see Katie Wright spouting such nonsense. Especially at that home of censorship, AoA, where censorship provides a “safe environment” for the perpetuation of delusion.

    BTW, there’s a bit of a typo in the headline.

  10. #10 Karl Withakay
    March 17, 2010

    “It is absolutely frightening that a wanted felon…”

    Since Thorsen has not been convicted of a felony, this would appear to be libel.

    I’m not sure if formal charges have even been filed yet.

  11. #11 The Wicker Man
    March 17, 2010

    Instead of thinking about how much the stupid burns, think about Nic Cage in the remake of ‘The Wicker Man’ when he gets the bee treatment.

    “Oh no, not the stupid! Oh God, the stupid!”

  12. #12 Orac
    March 17, 2010

    I never saw the remake of The Wicker Man with Nicholas Cage, and, from what I’ve heard, that is a good thing.

  13. #13 MartinB
    March 17, 2010

    Well, “censoring” is just one of these irregular verbs, isn’t it:
    I keep peace on my blog
    you shut out dissenters
    he is censoring.

  14. #14 Rene Najera
    March 17, 2010

    Censorship? They don’t even know the meaning of irony. They bitch and complain that they’re being censored when none of the comments opposing their views get through. Or, if they do get through, they are told they won’t get through any more… Exhibit A:

    Rene, last comment from you love duck… Dr. Healy is right – science has backed away from the autism/vaccine safety issue lock, stock (market) and barrel. The science is not complete. There are many studies which show vaccination safety problems. Now go back to work, I’m sure you’ve much to accomplish. A quick Google search of your name turns up that you are an epidemiologist with the MD department of mental health. I give you credit for using your name – many commenters do not. We do not encourage vaccine injury deniers at Age of Autism, however. We allowed you to state your opinion.

    Au revoir.

    Kim

    Posted by: Managing Editor for Rene

    Too bad she doesn’t know I could have been the “Rene Najera” on this list: http://www.ci.longmont.co.us/police/crimeupdate/mostwanted.htm

    Or am I? Hahahahaaahahahaha! (Maniacal laugh.)

    I’m not.

  15. #15 Todd W.
    March 17, 2010

    @Rene Najera

    Wow. You actually got a response from her telling you why (sorta) you were being banned? I didn’t even get that. Just an unceremonious blocking of all posts.

    Luckily, there’s a solution for that! (Though I must admit, I’ve been a bit light on posting, recently, since I can no longer access AoA during the day and my evenings are a bit busy. Shoot me an e-mail, though, if you want a thread created about an AoA post.)

  16. #16 DayOwl
    March 17, 2010

    Did anyone catch the “wanted felon” reference? It’s amazing how a couple of university grant expenditure inquiries have morphed into criminal convictions in such a short time. Can Thorsen sue for defamation?

  17. #17 Rene Najera
    March 17, 2010

    @Todd W.:
    Nah, I just package up all my comments and e-mail them en masse to Kim’s personal e-mail. Then head over to her blog and post them there again. Then head over to Huffington Post and post them there once more. Basically, it’s an electronic carpet bomb of comments, usually on Saturdays, building up all the week’s comments. I’m pretty sure she’ll write about me on her blog. I hope she points over to my examiner page… I needs me some money.

  18. #18 Sid Offit
    March 17, 2010

    Sounds like Sebilius is just establishing her bona fides for that post-government Sanofi job. Nothing wrong with that.

  19. #19 Denice Walter
    March 17, 2010

    “Telling both sides” often means that the SB side starts to talk and gets drowned out by the whimsy-based side’s protestations.Fortunately,a few shows feature interviews with a single guest:Fareed Zakaria and Rachel Maddow(last night: Timothy Geithner).(About “The Wicker Man”:only the original please,which I once ran into on late night TV and have since been recommending;I saw about 10 minutes- towards the end-of the re-make, which was *way* too much)

  20. #20 Ian
    March 17, 2010

    @MartinB

    I keep peace on my blog
    you shut out dissenters

    As someone who’s been on the “wrong side” of a debate on the RI boards, let me tell you – the ‘shutting out of dissenters’ comes almost entirely from the other commenters. The rare times that Orac steps into the fray is usually to counter a particularly belligerent commenter who says particularly stupid things. However, the “dissenting” posts get left up there for anyone to see.

    If you wuss out on your convictions because people don’t agree with you, that isn’t shutting out dissent; that’s the will of the majority being imposed on you, which happens in ANY human interaction. Don’t like it? Change species.

  21. #21 Todd W.
    March 17, 2010

    @Rene Najera

    Ah. Nice tactic. I would like to have more posts on Silenced, though, as an illustration of how many comments never see the light of a computer screen over at AoA. More people than just myself, y’know.

  22. #22 IDM
    March 17, 2010

    Orac, I’ll save you the time and show you the best of it (there’s also a Rifftrax): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6i2WRreARo

    Honestly, if you keep the original out of your mind, you can enjoy it the same way as an Ed Wood flick.

    And what’s the “growing body of evidence” the quack speaks of? Let me guess…it involves 12 monkeys.

  23. #23 DLC
    March 17, 2010

    Ooh cool.
    So HHS Secretary Sebelius says “please don’t treat whackos with the same credibility as the reality-based people who’ve actually spent the time and effort learning a thing or two about the subject”, and the nuts at the end of the bar wank on about being repressed.
    Oh, and Mr Doofus from DI : it’s Poul Thorsen, not Paul, but thanks for playing.

  24. #24 Otto
    March 17, 2010

    “Orac, I’ll save you the time and show you the best of it”

    Did the remake include a version of the crazy Britt Ekland mating dance?

  25. #25 Glen Davidson
    March 17, 2010

    Ironic that IDiots are so happy to censor out other religious ideas, not wanting a bit of Plato’s Forms taught as science, nor Greek myths of metamorphosis.

    See, that really is censorship, because they’re precisely on the same level as Ovid’s Metamorphoses, and have only the science that they have gotten (and then usually corrupted) from scientists.

    But hey, pushing science out of the way to teach apologetics is all about academic freedom (well it sort of is, of the most corrupt kind), while keeping other religious apologetics out is simply about God’s truth, so it’s all all right.

    Glen Davidson
    http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p

  26. #26 Anthro
    March 17, 2010

    How can AoA claim any legitimacy, or cry “censorship” when they block dissenting views?
    Hypocrisy at its best.

  27. #27 Scott
    March 17, 2010

    @20:

    Reread Martin’s post. He did not say what you thought he said. He was merely commenting on how common it is for perspective to control what verb is used to describe said activity, NOT claiming that Orac “shuts out dissenters”.

  28. #28 Ian
    March 17, 2010

    Ah. My mistake. Redacted with apologies to MartinB.

  29. #29 Calli Arcale
    March 17, 2010

    Ironic that IDiots are so happy to censor out other religious ideas, not wanting a bit of Plato’s Forms taught as science, nor Greek myths of metamorphosis.

    Which is especially ironic considering the huge influence the ancient Greeks had on culture at the time the New Testament was written. (There is a reason it was written down in Greek rather than Hebrew or Latin, after all, though note that some portions may have originated in Aramaic.) They really should read the classics if they want to understand the social milieu of the Bible and therefore the points it is trying to make. It wasn’t written in a vacuum.

  30. #30 Ewan R
    March 17, 2010
    I am taking Ms. Sebelius at her word. Ms. Sebelius has unilaterally said that she knows that every single American parent who saw their child regress post vaccination or experience a severe adverse reaction is wrong and she knows better.

    Uh, no. Sebelius said nothing of the sort. She simply asked the media to stop giving equal time to pseudoscience. Her words have no force other than that of a Cabinet secretary; they do not have the force of law. It’s also highly unlikely the media will listen, unfortunately. Not that any of that stops Wright from turning the paranoia and anti-government hysteria up to 11:

    However, even if she had said that – she’d be right, at least according to the scientific evidence.

  31. #31 Seb30
    March 17, 2010

    “with parents of Autism being like the French Resistance during WWII”
    My grandpa was POW, my grandma was carrying luggages of food accross Lyon. Their role was really minor, the risks they have taken, not so. They did not talk much about it, but it was clearly not happy times.

    AoA have no idea that they are talking about.

    To start with, French resistants (well, the real ones, most of those were killed) didn’t spent all their evenings blogging about how much the germans were repressing them.

  32. #32 Pablo
    March 17, 2010

    This topic is kind of derivation of a common internet phenomenon. In Orac world, we might call it “You aren’t allowed to criticize my opinion” gambit. It usually goes something like this:

    Person 1 says something stupid.
    Person 2 (and maybe others) jump on it, and point out that it is stupid, and provide X reasons why it is stupid.
    Person 1, unable to address their criticism, responds with “I thought this was a place to provide opinions, and I provided mine.”

    The irony being, of course, that the others ALSO provided their opinions, most notably, that Person 1’s opinion was baseless. However, they apparently AREN’T allowed to provide their opinion that Person 1’s opinion is baseless.

    Personally, I prefer to name it after myself, since I am the one who constantly points it out when it occurs (I have even had it put into discussion group FAQs because it is such a common error – you are indeed allowed to express your opinion, but so are others, including their opinion that your opinion is wrong).

    In the end, they boil down to the same contradiction – someone is complaining that others are saying bad things about their opinions, which they are entitled to express.

    Granted, it does seem like persecution when you lose the special treatment you have been given in the past. Listen to those christians who howl and scream persecution when they lose their ability to use government resources to promote their religion.

  33. #33 Jake Crosby
    March 17, 2010

    Anti safe-vaxxers,

    I was the first to report on the Sebelius quote, so don’t go blaming Ms. Wright.
    http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/did-kathleen-sebelius-pressure-media-to-deny-vaccine-safety-voices.html#more

    Kathleen Sebelius is telling the media to report her views in place of consumer groups who’ve identified the glaring flaws in all the shoddy tobacco science vindicating the government’s most heavily promoted drug, while ignoring all scientific evidence linking vaccines to autism. In other words, she’s manipulating the media.

    Vaccines cause autism, the government has quietly conceded to that already in court cases like Hannah Poling and Bailey Banks. The only debate here is in how many children they cause autism in.

    The “scientific community” that says otherwise is just derived from the IOM Report ruling, the panelists of which pretty much already announced their conclusion before receiving any evidence, and nominally based that the Danish data. With that discredited, all that leaves is one study from Britain and another by Verstraeten. Before publication, Verstraeten admitted the British study might not even be worth doing, while Verstraeten described his own study as “neutral,” which was later repudiated by the CDC itself. So much for the “Scientific Community.”

    All you have left is hope that the mainstream media will not get wind of this, but alas, that’s already beginning to happen:
    http://www.11alive.com/video/default.aspx?menuid=149#/News/A+New+Twist+In+The+Controversy+Over+Autism/49906865001/50317397001/71272069001

    Cheers.

  34. #34 Todd W.
    March 17, 2010

    @Jake Crosby

    while ignoring all scientific evidence linking vaccines to autism

    Citations please.

    the government has quietly conceded to that already in court cases like Hannah Poling and Bailey Banks

    Bzzt! Wrong. Go back and read the rulings.

  35. #36 Dedj
    March 17, 2010

    “I was the first to report on the Sebelius quote, so don’t go blaming Ms. Wright.”

    Wait, why would the mere fact that you made a post first absolve her of the responsibility to ensure factual and interpretive accuracy within her post? Her article isn’t supported by any of the content of the quote, so who reported on it first is an irrelevance.

    Are you seriously implying that Ms. Wright did not – at any point – do any novel work on her post? Are you seriously attempting to imply that her post is entirely derived from yours?

    That is the only situation with in which “I did it first” could be seen as a reasonable defence of Ms Wright.

    As an aside – Todd is correct that you need to go and read up on the rulings. I do believe a formal correction to the claims that the concession was in regards to autism has been issued.

  36. #37 Tom
    March 17, 2010

    Jake,

    Your overlords have already disowned the thimerosal/autism link. Now it’s “too many, too soon”. Get with the program young man.

  37. #38 Otto
    March 17, 2010

    “I was the first to report on the Sebelius quote, so don’t go blaming Ms. Wright.”

    This is like fighting over who gets to take out the garbage.

  38. #39 Shay
    March 17, 2010

    Because the scientific community is just like the Nazi occupation and AoA’s brave maverick resistance is just like the French Resistance.

    Isn’t it obvious? All of those FEMA labor camp commandants are out looking for firing squads right now.

  39. #40 Ian
    March 17, 2010

    @Jake Crosby

    I looked through your references (minus the Youtube one because I don’t have flash on this computer). Not exactly the iron-clad evidence one would want to see.

    More than half of the Wakefield articles (and an even larger proportion of the autism.com ones) are commentaries or narrative responses. Those cannot and do not carry the weight of actual scientific RESEARCH, which involves the actual application of science, not merely the interpretation of slices of evidence.

    The remainder of the Wakefield articles appear to be about gut issues, and say nothing at all about thimerosal and autism, leaving it up to the reader to somehow connect the dots. Caffeine is associated with lung cancer – should we strictly restrict coffee? The answer is no, because that example is an overly-simplistic interpretation of the evidence that leaves you to connect the dots. The larger reality is that heavy smokers often drink lots of coffee. When you fail to establish a solid link but instead rely on innuendo and “it stands to reason” arguments, you can often find erroneous correlations.

    Jake, I seriously think you should drop the posturing, stop drinking the Kool-Aid from AoA, and take a science course or two. Learn what the scientific method actually is – it’s not simply piling up a list of PubMed citations and calling them “science” just because they were published in journals. Until you do that, and can provide REAL evidence, you’re exposing yourself as a shallow opportunist who has no interest in convincing those who disagree with you, simply bamboozling the ignorant with fear and wild, unfounded aspersions. Scientists listen to science, Jake. That’s why nobody here counts you as a credible source for a weather report, let alone facts.

  40. #41 Sili
    March 17, 2010

    I’ve never heard of Thorsen and a quick search on the homepages of the major newspapers reveals nothing. I no longer have access to the Lexis-Nexis database of all papers, but I doubt that would make any difference.

  41. #42 Todd W.
    March 17, 2010

    Okay, first, youtube videos are not science. The second link seems to be a “we (heart) Wakefield” site, still citing the 1998 study as evidence that MMR causes autism (psst…even the folks at AoA have been saying the 1998 study doesn’t say MMR causes autism). Don’t have time, at the moment, to sift through and pick out the studies that aren’t by Wakefield and, consequently, suspect.

    Next is your third link. I’m not going to waste my time with the Geiers, either, since they’ve proven themselves eminently incapable to performing good science (not to mention their hucksterism with Lupron and chelation). I don’t have time to track down things that don’t have links, at the moment, so that leaves (my comments bolded afterward):

    Richard C. Deth, Ph.D. Effects of Mercury on Methionine Synthase: Implications for Disordered Methylation in Autism Defeat Autism Now! 2003 Philadelphia – paper

    Examined mercury in vitro. While interesting, the results and speculations do not translate to what would happen in humans. Also, not peer-reviewed or published in a journal.

    Jeff Bradstreet, M.D. A Case-control Study of Mercury Burden in Children with Autistic Disorders and Measles Virus Genomic RNA in Cerebrospinal Fluid in Children with Regressive Autism. IOM presentation, Feb 9, 2004
    Slides: http://www.iom.edu/CMS/3793/4705/17047/18065.aspx

    Broken link.

    Valsamakis A et al. Altered virulence of vaccine strains of measles virus after prolonged replication in human tissue. J Virol. 1999 73(10): 8791-7. PMID 10482633 http://jvi.asm.org/cgi/reprint/73/10/8791.pdf

    Nothing to do with autism. Autism is not mentioned anywhere in the paper.

    The CDC’s original findings before the CDC began to manipulate the data, obtained via the Freedom of Information Act: High risk values for thimerosal injections and a range of neurologic problems, including ADHD, tics, language problems, and autism. http://factsformedia.com/factsformedia/thimerosalstudy.pdf

    Broken link. No PDF available to read.

    Excerpts from CDC’s in-house conference: Thimerosal sequelae http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/library/IOM%20Simpsonwood%20in%20bold.pdf

    Not a scientific study, but rather selective picking of text from a transcript.

    Congressman, Dr. Weldon’s letter to the CDC director

    Not a scientific study, and therefore not evidence.

    David Baskin, M.D. Relation of Neurotoxic Effects of Thimerosal to Autism. IOM presentation, Feb 9, 2004.
    Audio only: http://www.iom.edu/view.asp?id=19124

    Broken link.

    So, not a single scientific bit there that says vaccines cause autism. If I had more time, I would take a closer look. Perhaps someone else can take a look at the remaining things.

  42. #43 Dale
    March 17, 2010

    “I never saw the remake of The Wicker Man with Nicholas Cage, and, from what I’ve heard, that is a good thing.”

    Oooo no, you’ve missed an absolute treat! At one point Cage arbitrarily grabs a doll and screams “howditgetburned.HowditgetburnedHOWDITGETBURNEDHOWDITGETBURNEDHOWDITGETBURNEDHOWDITGETBURNEDHOWDITGETBURNED???” and his vapid love interest just shrugs and says “…I don’t know”.

    The salient features of the plot have been made into a techno music video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG1d6rUcMKc

  43. #44 Otto
    March 17, 2010

    “The salient features of the plot have been made into a techno music video”

    Phooey. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh9aBlcVkcI

  44. #45 Joseph
    March 17, 2010

    I’ve never heard of Thorsen and a quick search on the homepages of the major newspapers reveals nothing.

    Blogs don’t mention Thorsen prior to 2010, except as part of a list of authors in reference sections. A Google News archive search also doesn’t reveal much of anything about Thorsen prior to 2010.

  45. #46 Rene Najera
    March 17, 2010

    Hey, Jake, you blocked me from following the AoA twitter feed, didn’t you, you sly devil you? Is that a form of censorship? And what about Kim blocking comments? Is that a form of censorship?

    (Watch him respond with some nonsense that doesn’t even address the question.)

  46. #47 JohnV
    March 17, 2010

    You’ll probably get the standard answer, Rene: “censorship is ok when we do it.”

  47. #48 Dan Weber
    March 17, 2010

    I’ve never heard of Thorsen

    Until a few weeks ago, neither had the anti-vaccination camp. They wouldn’t have recognized him if he knocked on their door at 2pm and asked to speak to them about Jesus.

  48. #49 Yojimbo
    March 17, 2010

    I hereby certify post #33 to be 100% content-free.

    Inspector 37
    United States Bureau of Content

  49. #50 Travis
    March 17, 2010

    #45 Rene, won’t you please think of the children?

    Remember, they want to create a safe environment for parents and kids so they have to censor use meanies.

  50. #51 Pablo
    March 17, 2010

    Until a few weeks ago, neither had the anti-vaccination camp. They wouldn’t have recognized him if he knocked on their door at 2pm and asked to speak to them about Jesus.

    You gotta love the comparison of the situations.

    For the Wakefield paper, pretty much every one of the minor co-authors abandoned ship long before the hammer came down on St Andy. As soon as the shit he pulled came into the open, and the extent to which people were abusing the outcome of the work was clear, they couldn’t disassociate themselves from it fast enough, leaving only St Andy to carry the flag. When he fizzled in the mire, there was nothing left but ashes.

    With Thorsen, we have the anti-vax side so desperate for anything that they are propping up not only the significance of his contributions to the project (calling him a major player), but also the magnitude of his transgressions (he’s missing? News to him). Jeez, if the actions of minor authors were of so much significance, then the Wakefield study was hammered dead years and years ago. By their take, the Wakefield study was an example of the crew jumping ship, leaving only the rats to steer the boat.

  51. #52 BKsea
    March 17, 2010

    Orac: “cranking it up beyond 11″ – Quoting Monty Python, Princess Bride and Spinal Tap all in the same post! It’s a trifecta!

  52. #53 Joseph
    March 17, 2010

    You hear that, those of you with autistic children who accept the science and don’t buy into the pseudoscience claiming that vaccines cause autism? You aren’t part of the “autism community.”

    They co-opted the phrase “autism community” a long time ago, and the approach most people take is that nothing can be done about it. The term “autism communities” is used to distinguish anti-vaxers (the “autism community”) — a minority in all likelihood — from the rest of the people involved in autism one way or another.

  53. #54 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    Jake,

    Good luck trying to convince these fucking idiots that worship the dipshit that calls himself AFLAC, I mean ORAC. If the government said it was safe to inject babies with “trace amounts” of plutonium, these dipshits would go right along with that too. They don’t have fucking brains of their own or even try to think logically or use any common sense. They just listen to the almighty CDC and AAP and Sebelius and Insel and every other person that has serious blood on their hands. Hey ORAC, I bet you believe OJ is innocent too because he told you so right? Hmmm I wonder why a serial killer can’t chose 3 “Special” Masters instead of a jury at his trial? Especially when the Special Masters he gets are 3 of his good buddies or relatives. I wonder how many serial killers would be found guilty this way and have to pay out millions in compensation to the victims from the serial killer fund established by our government? At least serial killers aren’t money hungry dirtbags that are fucking people up just out of ignorance with the one goal of making millions and billions of dollars. Wow, how can one be worse than a serial killer? Very easy…just take a look at this issue and you will find many…including ORAC! From your good friend “Smarter Than All You Mother Fuckers”!

  54. #55 Kathleen Seidel
    March 17, 2010

    True censorship requires police power for its enforcement. Katie Wright and her AoA comrades can write and publish whatever they want with near-impunity because they are free from censorship and because libel lawsuits are expensive to prosecute and hard to win. However, freedom from censorship doesn’t mean that any individual is legally empowered to compel others to write what they want them to write, and publish what they want them to publish — such as newspaper articles that give equal time to hogwash, or hostile, irrational blog comments.

  55. #56 Ian
    March 17, 2010

    It’s amazing how much more cogent and persuasive an argument is when it is liberally peppered with profanity. It’s the same trick that Voltaire and Jonathan Swift used when writing their political tracts “Can-fucking-dide” and “A Modest Proposal, You Shitbags”

  56. #57 Rene Najera
    March 17, 2010

    @Ian

    Thanks, “asshole”, I just shot coffee out of my nose. :-p

  57. #58 Orac
    March 17, 2010

    I call Poe on Smarter Than You.

  58. #59 Alareth
    March 17, 2010

    @Jake

    while ignoring all scientific evidence linking vaccines to autism

    How can you ignore somethng that doesn’t exist?

  59. #60 JohnV
    March 17, 2010

    @ian

    I would be willing to pre-order “A Modest Proposal, You Shitbags”

  60. #61 Rene Najera
    March 17, 2010

    Excerpt from “A Modest Proposal, You Shitbags”:

    It is a melancholy object to those bad-ass mothers who walk through this great town or travel in the country, when they see the streets, the roads, and even the mother-fucking cabin doors, crowded with beggars of the female sex (bitches), followed by three, four, or six shit-bag children, all in rags and shit and importuning every passenger for an alms. These mothers, instead of being able to work for their goddamn honest livelihood, are forced to employ all their fucking time in strolling to beg sustenance for their helpless lice-infested infants: who as they grow up either turn thieves for want of work, or leave their dear native shithole of a country to fight for the Pretender in Spain, or sell themselves to the Barbadoes, those assholes.

  61. #62 JustaTech
    March 17, 2010

    STY@53: I have a question. Who is/are “the government”? Are we talking about the President, the chubby hippie who’s my mayor, the IRS, MIB, or some other TLA? I’m not familiar with the AAP, what branch of government are they under?

    To quote sci-fi: Gentle Homo, you are strange.

    (Homo in this case being a reference to your presumed genus, rather than any possible sexual orientation.)

  62. #63 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @JustaDipshit, I mean JustaTech, try @54 next time so you are directing your dumb question in the right direction. I wouldn’t expect anyone on this blog to know who the AAP is because you all don’t have a clue about anything in regards to this entire subject. It just shows that you don’t know the most basic things about such a critical subject. This is equivalent to an IT guy not knowing what a computer monitor is. Maybe you should be focusing on a different subject idiot. And yes, I will admit I’m a bit strange, but I know the ins and outs and every answer you all have ever been searching for when it comes to the cause of Autism. And very soon you will all know it too. Like I’ve said before, 2010 is the year something big happens, and you will all finally shut the hell up and bury your stupid little heads in shame. Then you can start a new blog about how it is acceptable to inject plutonium into pregnant women because pharmaceutical companies say it’s ok. Wow, how can you not have brains of your own?

  63. #64 Dianne
    March 17, 2010

    Are we talking about the President, the chubby hippie who’s my mayor, the IRS, MIB, or some other TLA?

    IIRC, the MIB were actually not a government agency but a pseudo-official spin off. Plus I think that the poster in question was referring to any organization with black helicopters.

  64. #65 Broken Link
    March 17, 2010

    @63 Smarter Than You – Wow, do tell. What’s the big thing that’s going to happen in 2010? Are you using your powers of prestidigitation, or do you have some kind of inside scoop? I remember someone similar to you (but without the profanity) bragging on Kathleen Seidel’s blog on March 22, 2006 that

    …I would like to make a virtual wager that within the next 18-24 months scientific evidence will make the thimerosal-autism link a near certainty. If you are willing, I’ll let you name the stakes.

    Hmmm. It’s not just 24 months later, it’s 48 months later. Better luck with your powers of foresight.

  65. #66 Chris
    March 17, 2010

    The Morphing Troll:

    And yes, I will admit I’m a bit strange, but I know the ins and outs and every answer you all have ever been searching for when it comes to the cause of Autism. And very soon you will all know it too. Like I’ve said before, 2010 is the year something big happens, and you will all finally shut the hell up and bury your stupid little heads in shame.

    I remember being told this by one of the mercury militia on a listserv I was on about a decade ago. The big thing turned out to be the silly “Autism is Mercury Poisoning” paper in Medical Hypothesis written by Blaxill and friends.

    I am sure that 2010 will bring the same kind of laugh riot in what the Morphing Troll calls “evidence.” It was probably supposed to be Wakefield’s monkey study that was recently retracted (maybe they are going to re-write it, remove Wakefield’s name and resubmit it… with more missing monkeys!).

  66. #67 Ian
    March 17, 2010

    @63

    Mad, MAD they called me! But soon, I’ll show them all! Their time of reckoning shall come! Oh yes, it shall come!

    *maniacal laughter and well-timed lightning/thunder*

    Do they have paragraphs in your secret volcano lair? Check behind the boxes of one-piece henchman jumpsuits. You know, the ones you use to dress up your straw-man army.

    Also, why are you hoarding all of these “answers” to yourself? Purportedly, thousands (or, according to one misguided commenter, hundreds of thousands) of people are suffering from “vaccine injury”. If you have clear, evidence-based answers, why withhold them from the rest of society?

  67. #68 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @All Dumbasses responding to me…I have no association with Blaxill or Wakefield or anyone you know trust me…and no it’s not the monkey study, and no it’s not some paper that claims mercury causes autism…in fact it’s not a study or experiment or literature at all. I know I sound kind of like a jackass because I do have a lot of anger toward people who are ignorant to this subject and those who are very uneducated about the subject trying to prove or disprove anything related to it like ORAC and Kevin Leitch attempt to do. I used to be very open minded about this subject until I researched it nonstop for 6 years and traveled directly to the sources of the Science themselves. If you knew everything I did, you too would be extremely upset with those who are at fault here, and those that continue to pretend nothing is wrong here. I expect you to laugh at my words, but the funny thing is, I’m not joking. Something has been in the making since 2004 that is going to make many dead people roll over in their graves. It will be completed by about October/November 2010, but it may be a little bit after that when you all become very familiar with it. But once you do, you will all finally see where you went wrong, because you most certainly have, and even the worst of the worst of them, such as Paul Offit, will even finally acknowledge just how wrong he was once and for all. Don’t get me wrong here though, I’m not saying vaccines are the culprit. And why do I withhold this from the rest of society? Because until it is complete people such as yourselves could not possibly understand it.

  68. #69 Dan Weber
    March 17, 2010

    I can’t wait for October/November 2010, when we get to find out that something big is coming out in June/July 2011!

  69. #70 Chris
    March 17, 2010

    The Morphing Troll:

    I used to be very open minded about this subject until I researched it nonstop for 6 years and traveled directly to the sources of the Science themselves.

    Evidence?

  70. #71 Chris
    March 17, 2010

    I’m willing to bet it will be some lame moronic paper in JPANDS, Medical Hypotheses or Medical Veritas. Probably with the same quality as the paper described here:

    We tried hard to find any science to analyse, but failed. The author just waxes moronically about infections, immune responses and ASD children without a shred, nothing, to support this ‘hypothesis’. The author is clearly setting up a post hoc argument using sources that don’t support such a conclusion.

    Considering the quality of the Morphing Troll’s writing and use of evidence (which is never), I suspect it will be as laughable as the 2001 Blaxill and friends paper.

  71. #72 Ian
    March 17, 2010

    My guess is that it’s a hard-hitting “exposé” on how corrupt the drug companies are, how they suppress the truth when they can get away with it, and when they twist it when they can’t. It will be filled with specific names and dates, and will be a fun romp down the rabbit hole…

    …at which point everyone will say “So what? Drug companies are corrupt. We knew that already.” Then they’ll go back to work doing something constructive.

  72. #73 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @Chris…you a girl or a boy? Try going and talking to one of the Scientists or Doctors yourself for once you douchebag…maybe it will open up your eyes a little bit to what has happened here. You google searchers that think you actually know something annoy me. Let me ask you ChrisTY…have you ever talked face to face with one Doctor, Scientist, Toxicologist, etc. that has performed any of the Science associated with this issue from either side of the argument? Have you questioned them or took the time to understand what they did, how they did it, and what the result was? If you want evidence, get off your lazy fat ass and go out there and get it like I did. I already have it and like I said, someone as elementary as you will not understand until it is fully complete. If you want to know sooner, I highly recommend traveling the country and world like I did to get it.

  73. #74 Chris
    March 17, 2010

    Yes.

    Here is the evidence I have:

    Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study.
    Hornig M et al.
    PLoS ONE 2008; 3(9): e3140 doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0003140
    *Subjects: 25 children with autism and GI disturbances and 13 children with GI disturbances alone (controls)

    Measles Vaccination and Antibody Response in Autism Spectrum Disorders.
    Baird G et al.
    Arch Dis Child 2008; 93(10):832-7.
    Subjects: 98 vaccinated children aged 10-12 years in the UK with autism spectrum disorder (ASD); two control groups of similar age: 52 children with special educational needs but no ASD and 90 children in the typically developing group

    MMR-Vaccine and Regression in Autism Spectrum Disorders: Negative Results Presented from Japan.
    Uchiyama T et al.
    J Autism Dev Disord 2007; 37(2):210-7
    *Subjects: 904 children with autism spectrum disorder
    (Note: MMR was used in Japan only between 1989 and 1993.)

    No Evidence of Persisting Measles Virus in Peripheral Blood Mononuclear Cells from Children with Autism Spectrum Disorder.
    D’Souza Y et al.
    Pediatrics 2006; 118(4):1664-75
    *Subjects: 54 children with autism spectrum disorder and 34 developmentally normal children

    Immunizations and Autism: A Review of the Literature.
    Doja A, Roberts W.
    Can J Neurol Sci. 2006; 33(4):341-6
    *Literature review

    Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links with Immunizations.
    Fombonne E et al.
    Pediatrics. 2006;118(1):e139-50
    *Subjects: 27,749 children born from 1987 to 1998 attending 55 schools

    Relationship between MMR Vaccine and Autism.
    Klein KC, Diehl EB.
    Ann Pharmacother. 2004; 38(7-8):1297-300
    *Literature review of 10 studies

    Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism. Institute of Medicine.
    The National Academies Press: 2004
    (w w w . nap.edu/books/030909237X/html) *Literature review

    MMR Vaccination and Pervasive Developmental Disorders: A Case-Control Study.
    Smeeth L et al.
    Lancet 2004; 364(9438):963-9
    *Subjects: 1294 cases and 4469 controls

    Age at First Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination in Children with Autism and School-Matched Control Subjects: A Population-Based Study in Metropolitan Atlanta.
    DeStefano F et al. Pediatrics 2004; 113(2): 259-66
    *Subjects: 624 children with autism and 1,824 controls

    Prevalence of Autism and Parentally Reported Triggers in a North East London Population.
    Lingam R et al.
    Arch Dis Child 2003; 88(8):666-70
    *Subjects: 567 children with autistic spectrum disorder

    Neurologic Disorders after Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination.
    Makela A et al.
    Pediatrics 2002; 110:957-63
    *Subjects: 535,544 children vaccinated between November 1982 and June 1986 in Finland

    A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism.
    Madsen KM et al.
    N Engl J Med 2002; 347(19):1477-82
    *Subjects: All 537,303 children born 1/91–12/98 in Denmark

    Relation of Childhood Gastrointestinal Disorders to Autism: Nested Case Control Study Using Data from the UK General Practice Research Database.
    Black C et al.
    BMJ 2002; 325:419-21
    *Subjects: 96 children diagnosed with autism and 449 controls

    Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Bowel Problems or Developmental Regression in Children with Autism: Population Study.
    Taylor B et al.
    BMJ 2002; 324(7334):393-6
    *Subjects: 278 children with core autism and 195 with atypical autism

    No Evidence for a New Variant of Measles-Mumps-Rubella-Induced Autism.
    Fombonne E et al.
    Pediatrics 2001;108(4):E58
    *Subjects: 262 autistic children (pre- and post-MMR samples)

    Measles-Mumps-Rubella and Other Measles-Containing Vaccines Do Not Increase the Risk for Inflammatory Bowel Disease: A Case-Control Study from the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project.
    Davis RL et al.
    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 2001;155(3):354-9
    *Subjects: 155 persons with IBD with up to 5 controls each

    Time Trends in Autism and in MMR Immunization Coverage in California.
    Dales L et al.
    JAMA 2001; 285(9):1183-5
    *Subjects: Children born in 1980-94 who were enrolled in California kindergartens (survey samples of 600–1,900 children each year)

    Mumps, Measles, and Rubella Vaccine and the Incidence of Autism Recorded by General Practitioners: A Time Trend Analysis.
    Kaye JA et al.
    BMJ 2001; 322:460-63
    *Subjects: 305 children with autism

    Further Evidence of the Absence of Measles Virus Genome Sequence in Full Thickness Intestinal Specimens from Patients with Crohn’s Disease.
    Afzal MA, et al.
    J Med Virol 2000; 62(3):377-82
    *Subjects: Specimens from patients with Crohn’s disease

    Autism and Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine: No Epidemiological Evidence for a Causal Association.
    Taylor B et al.
    Lancet 1999;353 (9169):2026-9
    *Subjects: 498 children with autism

    Absence of Detectable Measles Virus Genome Sequence in Inflammatory Bowel Disease Tissues and Peripheral Blood Lymphocytes.
    Afzal MA et al.
    J Med Virol 1998; 55(3):243-9
    *Subjects: 93 colonoscopic biopsies and 31 peripheral blood lymphocyte preparations

    No Evidence for Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine-Associated Inflammatory Bowel Disease or Autism in a 14-year Prospective Study.
    Peltola H et al.
    Lancet 1998; 351:1327-8
    *Subjects: 3,000,000 doses of MMR vaccine

    Exposure to Measles in Utero and Crohn’s Disease: Danish Register Study.
    Nielsen LL et al.
    BMJ 1998; 316(7126):196-7
    *Subjects: 472 women with measles

    Immunocytochemical Evidence of Listeria, Escherichia coli, and Streptococcus Antigens in Crohn’s Disease.
    Liu Y et al.
    Gastroenterology 1995; 108(5):1396-1404
    *Subjects: Intestines and mesenteric lymph node specimens from 21 persons from families with a high frequency of Crohn’s disease

    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
    Tozzi AE, Bisiacchi P, Tarantino V, De Mei B, D’Elia L, Chiarotti F, Salmaso S.
    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82

    Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants after Receipt of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
    Pichichero ME, Gentile A, Giglio N, et al
    Pediatrics, February 2008; 121(2) e208-214

    Mercury, Vaccines, And Autism: One Controversy, Three Histories
    Baker JP
    American Journal of Public Health, February 2008;98(2): 244-253

    Continuing Increases in Autism Reported to California’s Developmental Services System: Mercury in Retrograde
    Schechter R, Grether JK
    Arch Gen Psychiatry, January 2008; 65(1):19-24

    Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years
    Thompson WW, Price C, Goodson B, et al; Vaccine Safety Datalink Team
    N Engl J Med, Sep 27, 2007; 357(13):1281-1292

    Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links with Immunizations
    Fombonne E, Zakarian R, Bennett A, Meng L, McLean-Heywood D
    Pediatrics, July 2006, Vol. 118(1):e139-e150

    Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System Reporting Source: A Possible Source of Bias in Longitudinal Studies
    Goodman MJ, Nordin J
    Pediatrics, February 2006, Vol. 117(2):387-390

    MMR-Vaccine and Regression in Autism Spectrum Disorders: Negative Results Presented from Japan
    Authors: Uchiyama T, Kurosawa M, Inaba Y
    Source: J Autism Dev Disord, February 2007; 37(2):210-217

    No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study.
    Honda H, Shimizu Y, Rutter M.
    J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;46(6):572-9.

    Thimerosal in Vaccines: Balancing the Risk of Adverse Effects with the Risk of Vaccine-Preventable Disease
    Bigham M, Copes R
    Drug Safety, 2005, Vol. 28(2):89-101

    Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal
    Burbacher TM, Shen DD, Liberato N, Grant KS, Cernichiari E, Clarkson T
    National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, April 21, 2005

    Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Prospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
    Heron J, Golding J, ALSPAC Study Team
    Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):577-583

    Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Retrospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
    Andrews N, Miller E, Grant A, Stowe J, Osborne V, Taylor B
    Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):584-591

    Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data
    Parker SK, Schwartz B, Todd J, Pickering LK
    Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):793-804

    The Evidence for the Safety of Thimerosal in Newborn and Infant Vaccines
    Clements CJ
    Vaccine, May 7, 2004, Vol. 22(15-16):1854-1861

    Safety of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: A Two-Phased Study of Computerized Health Maintenance Organization Databases
    Verstraeten T, Davis RL, DeStefano F, et al
    Pediatrics, November 2003, Vol. 112(5):1039-1048

    The Toxicology of Mercury–Current Exposures and Clinical Manifestations
    Clarkson TW, Magos L, Myers GJ
    New England Journal of Medicine, October 30, 2003, Vol. 349(18):1731-7

    Association Between Thimerosal-Containing Vaccine and Autism
    Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M
    Journal of the American Medical Association, October 1, 2003, Vol. 290(13):1763-6

    Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence from Danish Population-Based Data
    Madsen KM, Lauritsen MB, Pedersen CB, et al
    Pediatrics, Sept. 2003, Vol. 112(3 Pt 1):604-606

    Autism and Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines. Lack of Consistent Evidence for an Association
    Stehr-Green P, Tull P, Stellfeld M, Mortenson PB, Simpson D
    American Journal of Preventive Medicine, August 2003, Vol. 25(2):101-6

    Impact of the Thimerosal Controversy on Hepatitis B Vaccine Coverage of Infants Born to Women of Unknown Hepatitis B Surface Antigen Status in Michigan
    Biroscak BJ, Fiore AE, Fasano N, Fineis P, Collins MP, Stoltman G
    Pediatrics, June 2003, Vol. 111(6):e645-9

    Vaccine Safety Policy Analysis in Three European Countries: The Case of Thimerosal
    Freed GL, Andreae MC, Cowan AE, et al
    Health Policy, December 2002, Vol. 62(3):291-307

    Mercury Concentrations and Metabolism in Infants Receiving Vaccines Containing Thimerosal: A Descriptive Study
    Pichichero ME, Cernichiari E, Lopreiato J, Treanor J
    The Lancet, November 30, 2002, Vol. 360:1737-1741

    An Assessment of Thimerosal Use in Childhood Vaccines
    Ball LK, Ball R, Pratt RD
    Pediatrics, May 2001, Vol. 107(5):1147-1154

    Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001
    Zhou F, Santoli J, Messonnier ML, Yusuf HR, Shefer A, Chu SY, Rodewald L, Harpaz R.
    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.

    An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.
    Zhou F, Reef S, Massoudi M, Papania MJ, Yusuf HR, Bardenheier B, Zimmerman L, McCauley MM.
    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.

    Impact of universal Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccination starting at 2 months of age in the United States: an economic analysis.
    Zhou F, Bisgard KM, Yusuf HR, Deuson RR, Bath SK, Murphy TV.
    Pediatrics. 2002 Oct;110(4):653-61.

    Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.
    Brosco JP, Mattingly M, Sanders LM.
    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006;160:302-309.

    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.
    Ray P, Hayward J, Michelson D, Lewis E, Schwalbe J, Black S, Shinefield H, Marcy M, Huff K, Ward J, Mullooly J, Chen R, Davis R; Vaccine Safety Datalink Group.
    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.

    Childhood vaccinations, vaccination timing, and risk of type 1 diabetes mellitus.
    DeStefano F, Mullooly JP, Okoro CA, Chen RT, Marcy SM, Ward JI, Vadheim CM, Black SB, Shinefield HR, Davis RL, Bohlke K; Vaccine Safety Datalink Team.
    Pediatrics. 2001 Dec;108(6):E112.

    And yours is where?

  74. #75 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @Ian, not even close. You could never guess this in a million years. It’s something you have never encountered before or even heard of I assure you.

  75. #76 Chris
    March 17, 2010

    Yes.

    Here is the evidence I have:

    Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study.
    Hornig M et al.
    PLoS ONE 2008; 3(9): e3140 doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0003140
    *Subjects: 25 children with autism and GI disturbances and 13 children with GI disturbances alone (controls)

    Measles Vaccination and Antibody Response in Autism Spectrum Disorders.
    Baird G et al.
    Arch Dis Child 2008; 93(10):832-7.
    Subjects: 98 vaccinated children aged 10-12 years in the UK with autism spectrum disorder (ASD); two control groups of similar age: 52 children with special educational needs but no ASD and 90 children in the typically developing group

    MMR-Vaccine and Regression in Autism Spectrum Disorders: Negative Results Presented from Japan.
    Uchiyama T et al.
    J Autism Dev Disord 2007; 37(2):210-7
    *Subjects: 904 children with autism spectrum disorder
    (Note: MMR was used in Japan only between 1989 and 1993.)

    No Evidence of Persisting Measles Virus in Peripheral Blood Mononuclear Cells from Children with Autism Spectrum Disorder.
    D’Souza Y et al.
    Pediatrics 2006; 118(4):1664-75
    *Subjects: 54 children with autism spectrum disorder and 34 developmentally normal children

    Immunizations and Autism: A Review of the Literature.
    Doja A, Roberts W.
    Can J Neurol Sci. 2006; 33(4):341-6
    *Literature review

    Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links with Immunizations.
    Fombonne E et al.
    Pediatrics. 2006;118(1):e139-50
    *Subjects: 27,749 children born from 1987 to 1998 attending 55 schools

    Relationship between MMR Vaccine and Autism.
    Klein KC, Diehl EB.
    Ann Pharmacother. 2004; 38(7-8):1297-300
    *Literature review of 10 studies

    Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism. Institute of Medicine.
    The National Academies Press: 2004
    (w w w . nap.edu/books/030909237X/html) *Literature review

    MMR Vaccination and Pervasive Developmental Disorders: A Case-Control Study.
    Smeeth L et al.
    Lancet 2004; 364(9438):963-9
    *Subjects: 1294 cases and 4469 controls

    Age at First Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination in Children with Autism and School-Matched Control Subjects: A Population-Based Study in Metropolitan Atlanta.
    DeStefano F et al. Pediatrics 2004; 113(2): 259-66
    *Subjects: 624 children with autism and 1,824 controls

    Prevalence of Autism and Parentally Reported Triggers in a North East London Population.
    Lingam R et al.
    Arch Dis Child 2003; 88(8):666-70
    *Subjects: 567 children with autistic spectrum disorder

    Neurologic Disorders after Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination.
    Makela A et al.
    Pediatrics 2002; 110:957-63
    *Subjects: 535,544 children vaccinated between November 1982 and June 1986 in Finland

    A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism.
    Madsen KM et al.
    N Engl J Med 2002; 347(19):1477-82
    *Subjects: All 537,303 children born 1/91–12/98 in Denmark

    Relation of Childhood Gastrointestinal Disorders to Autism: Nested Case Control Study Using Data from the UK General Practice Research Database.
    Black C et al.
    BMJ 2002; 325:419-21
    *Subjects: 96 children diagnosed with autism and 449 controls

    Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Bowel Problems or Developmental Regression in Children with Autism: Population Study.
    Taylor B et al.
    BMJ 2002; 324(7334):393-6
    *Subjects: 278 children with core autism and 195 with atypical autism

    No Evidence for a New Variant of Measles-Mumps-Rubella-Induced Autism.
    Fombonne E et al.
    Pediatrics 2001;108(4):E58
    *Subjects: 262 autistic children (pre- and post-MMR samples)

    Measles-Mumps-Rubella and Other Measles-Containing Vaccines Do Not Increase the Risk for Inflammatory Bowel Disease: A Case-Control Study from the Vaccine Safety Datalink Project.
    Davis RL et al.
    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 2001;155(3):354-9
    *Subjects: 155 persons with IBD with up to 5 controls each

    Time Trends in Autism and in MMR Immunization Coverage in California.
    Dales L et al.
    JAMA 2001; 285(9):1183-5
    *Subjects: Children born in 1980-94 who were enrolled in California kindergartens (survey samples of 600–1,900 children each year)

    Mumps, Measles, and Rubella Vaccine and the Incidence of Autism Recorded by General Practitioners: A Time Trend Analysis.
    Kaye JA et al.
    BMJ 2001; 322:460-63
    *Subjects: 305 children with autism

    Further Evidence of the Absence of Measles Virus Genome Sequence in Full Thickness Intestinal Specimens from Patients with Crohn’s Disease.
    Afzal MA, et al.
    J Med Virol 2000; 62(3):377-82
    *Subjects: Specimens from patients with Crohn’s disease

    Autism and Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine: No Epidemiological Evidence for a Causal Association.
    Taylor B et al.
    Lancet 1999;353 (9169):2026-9
    *Subjects: 498 children with autism

    Absence of Detectable Measles Virus Genome Sequence in Inflammatory Bowel Disease Tissues and Peripheral Blood Lymphocytes.
    Afzal MA et al.
    J Med Virol 1998; 55(3):243-9
    *Subjects: 93 colonoscopic biopsies and 31 peripheral blood lymphocyte preparations

    No Evidence for Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine-Associated Inflammatory Bowel Disease or Autism in a 14-year Prospective Study.
    Peltola H et al.
    Lancet 1998; 351:1327-8
    *Subjects: 3,000,000 doses of MMR vaccine

    Exposure to Measles in Utero and Crohn’s Disease: Danish Register Study.
    Nielsen LL et al.
    BMJ 1998; 316(7126):196-7
    *Subjects: 472 women with measles

    Immunocytochemical Evidence of Listeria, Escherichia coli, and Streptococcus Antigens in Crohn’s Disease.
    Liu Y et al.
    Gastroenterology 1995; 108(5):1396-1404
    *Subjects: Intestines and mesenteric lymph node specimens from 21 persons from families with a high frequency of Crohn’s disease

    Neuropsychological Performance 10 years after Immunization in Infancy with Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
    Tozzi AE, Bisiacchi P, Tarantino V, De Mei B, D’Elia L, Chiarotti F, Salmaso S.
    Pediatrics, February 2009, Vol. 123(2):475-82

    Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants after Receipt of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines
    Pichichero ME, Gentile A, Giglio N, et al
    Pediatrics, February 2008; 121(2) e208-214

    Mercury, Vaccines, And Autism: One Controversy, Three Histories
    Baker JP
    American Journal of Public Health, February 2008;98(2): 244-253

    Continuing Increases in Autism Reported to California’s Developmental Services System: Mercury in Retrograde
    Schechter R, Grether JK
    Arch Gen Psychiatry, January 2008; 65(1):19-24

    Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years
    Thompson WW, Price C, Goodson B, et al; Vaccine Safety Datalink Team
    N Engl J Med, Sep 27, 2007; 357(13):1281-1292

    Pervasive Developmental Disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: Prevalence and Links with Immunizations
    Fombonne E, Zakarian R, Bennett A, Meng L, McLean-Heywood D
    Pediatrics, July 2006, Vol. 118(1):e139-e150

    Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System Reporting Source: A Possible Source of Bias in Longitudinal Studies
    Goodman MJ, Nordin J
    Pediatrics, February 2006, Vol. 117(2):387-390

    MMR-Vaccine and Regression in Autism Spectrum Disorders: Negative Results Presented from Japan
    Authors: Uchiyama T, Kurosawa M, Inaba Y
    Source: J Autism Dev Disord, February 2007; 37(2):210-217

    No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study.
    Honda H, Shimizu Y, Rutter M.
    J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;46(6):572-9.

    Thimerosal in Vaccines: Balancing the Risk of Adverse Effects with the Risk of Vaccine-Preventable Disease
    Bigham M, Copes R
    Drug Safety, 2005, Vol. 28(2):89-101

    Comparison of Blood and Brain Mercury Levels in Infant Monkeys Exposed to Methylmercury or Vaccines Containing Thimerosal
    Burbacher TM, Shen DD, Liberato N, Grant KS, Cernichiari E, Clarkson T
    National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, April 21, 2005

    Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Prospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
    Heron J, Golding J, ALSPAC Study Team
    Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):577-583

    Thimerosal Exposure in Infants and Developmental Disorders: A Retrospective Cohort Study in the United Kingdom Does Not Support a Causal Association
    Andrews N, Miller E, Grant A, Stowe J, Osborne V, Taylor B
    Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):584-591

    Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data
    Parker SK, Schwartz B, Todd J, Pickering LK
    Pediatrics, September 2004, Vol. 114(3):793-804

    The Evidence for the Safety of Thimerosal in Newborn and Infant Vaccines
    Clements CJ
    Vaccine, May 7, 2004, Vol. 22(15-16):1854-1861

    Safety of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: A Two-Phased Study of Computerized Health Maintenance Organization Databases
    Verstraeten T, Davis RL, DeStefano F, et al
    Pediatrics, November 2003, Vol. 112(5):1039-1048

    The Toxicology of Mercury–Current Exposures and Clinical Manifestations
    Clarkson TW, Magos L, Myers GJ
    New England Journal of Medicine, October 30, 2003, Vol. 349(18):1731-7

    Association Between Thimerosal-Containing Vaccine and Autism
    Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M
    Journal of the American Medical Association, October 1, 2003, Vol. 290(13):1763-6

    Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence from Danish Population-Based Data
    Madsen KM, Lauritsen MB, Pedersen CB, et al
    Pediatrics, Sept. 2003, Vol. 112(3 Pt 1):604-606

    Autism and Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines. Lack of Consistent Evidence for an Association
    Stehr-Green P, Tull P, Stellfeld M, Mortenson PB, Simpson D
    American Journal of Preventive Medicine, August 2003, Vol. 25(2):101-6

    Impact of the Thimerosal Controversy on Hepatitis B Vaccine Coverage of Infants Born to Women of Unknown Hepatitis B Surface Antigen Status in Michigan
    Biroscak BJ, Fiore AE, Fasano N, Fineis P, Collins MP, Stoltman G
    Pediatrics, June 2003, Vol. 111(6):e645-9

    Vaccine Safety Policy Analysis in Three European Countries: The Case of Thimerosal
    Freed GL, Andreae MC, Cowan AE, et al
    Health Policy, December 2002, Vol. 62(3):291-307

    Mercury Concentrations and Metabolism in Infants Receiving Vaccines Containing Thimerosal: A Descriptive Study
    Pichichero ME, Cernichiari E, Lopreiato J, Treanor J
    The Lancet, November 30, 2002, Vol. 360:1737-1741

    An Assessment of Thimerosal Use in Childhood Vaccines
    Ball LK, Ball R, Pratt RD
    Pediatrics, May 2001, Vol. 107(5):1147-1154

    Economic Evaluation of the 7-Vaccine Routine Childhood Immunization Schedule in the United States, 2001
    Zhou F, Santoli J, Messonnier ML, Yusuf HR, Shefer A, Chu SY, Rodewald L, Harpaz R.
    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2005;159:1136-1144.

    An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.
    Zhou F, Reef S, Massoudi M, Papania MJ, Yusuf HR, Bardenheier B, Zimmerman L, McCauley MM.
    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.

    Impact of universal Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccination starting at 2 months of age in the United States: an economic analysis.
    Zhou F, Bisgard KM, Yusuf HR, Deuson RR, Bath SK, Murphy TV.
    Pediatrics. 2002 Oct;110(4):653-61.

    Impact of specific medical interventions on reducing the prevalence of mental retardation.
    Brosco JP, Mattingly M, Sanders LM.
    Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 2006;160:302-309.

    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.
    Ray P, Hayward J, Michelson D, Lewis E, Schwalbe J, Black S, Shinefield H, Marcy M, Huff K, Ward J, Mullooly J, Chen R, Davis R; Vaccine Safety Datalink Group.
    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.

    Childhood vaccinations, vaccination timing, and risk of type 1 diabetes mellitus.
    DeStefano F, Mullooly JP, Okoro CA, Chen RT, Marcy SM, Ward JI, Vadheim CM, Black SB, Shinefield HR, Davis RL, Bohlke K; Vaccine Safety Datalink Team.
    Pediatrics. 2001 Dec;108(6):E112.

    And yours is where? Because if you ever posted it, it seems to have been lots under the pile of vitriol that makes up the bulk of your vocabulary.

    As we said before: Put up or shut up.

  76. #77 Ian
    March 17, 2010

    Something I’ve never even heard of? Neat! Some kind of fusion of jazz, camels, and the colour purprange (a new colour that was invented specifically for this Earth-shattering display of your genius)? C’mon, just a little hint… you can whisper it into my ear. Does it perhaps involve attempts at insult by calling men by women’s names (which really isn’t that insulting if you think about the number of smart female scientists there are out there…)

    @Chris – stop acting as though Smarter Than You is a real person who can be engaged in a constructive debate. It’s much more constructive to mock him/her openly. That way, his/her ULTIMATE REVENGE! (thunder/lightning) will be that much sweeter, when he/she SHOWS US ALL!!!!!!111one

  77. #78 Seamus Ruah
    March 17, 2010

    Smarter Than You

    Projecting again I see.

  78. #79 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @ChrisTY…I didn’t ask for the evidence you google searched numbnuts…you wouldn’t know how to read or interpret one of those items you copied and pasted from someone’s website of bullshit. I’ve talked to many of the names that you copied and pasted. How many have you talked to ChrisTY? Have you traveled to Port Angeles Washington and talked directly with Paul Stehr-Green to discuss his epidemiology study related to thimerosal and autism, or his role he played in the Simpsonwood Conference? Have you interviewed Tom Burbacher at the University of Washington regarding his monkey studies? Have you interviewed Paul Offit in Philidelphia or Arthur Allen in D.C. about how thimerosal doesn’t cause Autism? Have you interviewed the CDC, FDA, EPA, AAP, WHO, NIH regarding this subject? Have you talked with David Kirby to really see how he came to the conclusion he did? Have you peformed experiments on childhood vaccines to see just how much mercury is actually in them? Have you you interviewed hundreds of parents and autistic children to really understand how their child regressed into autism, or was born with autism? Have you researched the first 11 children diagnosed with Autism by Leo Kanner and seen anything interesting about the oldest one of them? Have you received a mercury loaded shot yourself and been introduced to the devastating world known as Autism? Have you sat in the courtroom for weeks listening to every piece of the testimony at the autism omnibus proceeding? Have you attended rallies to find out just why these people are so upset and feel the need to rally in front of the CDC or the Capital Building? Have you witnessed first hand a child regressing into autism right before your eyes? Dude, you can’t say yes to even one of these…so go continue your little google searches and keep letting your weak easily controlled brain be brainwashed by AFLAC…oops ORAC. I keep getting him confused.

  79. #80 DLC
    March 17, 2010

    Orac @ 58: “I call Poe on smarter than you”

    Me: He’s either a Poe or the most persistent nutjob I’ve seen in years.

  80. #81 maydijo
    March 17, 2010

    But – But – he travelled to the sources of Science!!!!

    I love to travel, and it’s long been my dream to travel to the sources of everything big – the Nile, the Amazon – and if I could travel to the sources of Science, brilliant! Please tell me where it is so I can book my ticket!

  81. #82 Chris
    March 17, 2010

    She/He is bordering on Time Cube Logic!

    (I also sincerely doubt any of those people would let her/him get near enough for a real conversation!)

  82. #83 maydijo
    March 17, 2010

    Also, I’m just crushing on the sexism. ChrisTY – What a nice subtle put-down – although it’s just subtle enough that I’m not sure what the implication is – that Chris is so dumb s/he must be a woman or that Chris is a woman and obviously a part of the Big Gender conspiracy (to do what exactly?) As a woman, I just love it when my genitalia is used as a pejorative!

  83. #84 Andreas Schaefer
    March 17, 2010

    I have a little problem with people simultaneously believing in Intelligent Design AND children turning autistic from traces of thimerosol.
    Does this high sensitivity to T. not imply bad design ? Wouldn’t we expect a factory recall if this was about cars?

    Not to mention the numerous other examples of that “design”: diabetes, withdomteeth, appenices, catharacts, glaucomea, Alzheimers and so on. ( frankly most men will regard erektile dysfunktion as bad design and that when you are 50 and able to appreciate how good sex can be you are not standing up to it as much as when you were 18. This may be ‘design’ but I fail to see how it can be intelligent design. )
    Sometimes I think that you Americans came up with intelligent design because eventually you intent to sue the designer.

  84. #85 Fuzzzone
    March 17, 2010

    STY: “Don’t get me wrong here though, I’m not saying vaccines are the culprit.”
    “Have you received a mercury loaded shot yourself and been introduced to the devastating world known as Autism?”

    I’m confused. Which is it?

  85. #86 jenbphillips
    March 17, 2010

    *wipes tear*
    This post and subsequent discussions are deliciously witty. Thanks for the plentiful ROFLs, all–yes, even you, STY, you evil genius! And may I say how very cunning of you to ferret out the gender identity of your anonymous internet adversaries. It is SO taxing to think of gender-neutral insults with which to pepper one’s monologues–better to go right for the (pink, hormonally addled) jugular whenever possible, eh?

    What a nice subtle put-down – although it’s just subtle enough that I’m not sure what the implication is – that Chris is so dumb s/he must be a woman or that Chris is a woman and obviously a part of the Big Gender conspiracy (to do what exactly?)

    At the moment STY seems to be addressing Chris as a male (“Dude”) and casting aspersions on his manhood by feminizing the name to ChrisTY. Woman = Dickless Wimp, you see. Comedy Gold!

  86. #87 smarter then who?
    March 17, 2010

    UNLESS YOU TALK TO EVERYONE WITH ANY OPINION ON THIS SUBJECT YOU ARE WRONG!

    RAAARGH!

  87. #88 Chris
    March 17, 2010

    The gender bit is pretty amusing. It just screams “alls the womins are the stupids” all over.

    I found out recently that next week is Ada Lovelace Day. A day when blogs around the world will be writing about women in technology and science. I see that Abel Pharmboy has jumped the gun with a nice post on Florence Sabin, MD.

    It might not help that I am not the only “Chris” who comments here, and I am one of at least three “Chris”s who comments on the Bad Astronomer’s blog. I like the confusion.

  88. #89 Yakivegas
    March 17, 2010

    Smarter Than You:

    Most impressive, I can see that you are an operative of the first order. I do have one question, though:

    What color is the boathouse at Hereford?

  89. #90 Voice 0'Reason
    March 17, 2010

    I wonder if there is a word for such a delusion.

    “Stupid.”

  90. #91 Harry Eagar
    March 17, 2010

    Bedside manner counts, Orac.

    Nothing makes my newspaperman’s nerves twitch more than someone telling me: ‘You really don’t want to talk to that guy.’ (See Schlesinger or Schneider’s advice to reporters covering climate.)

    The proper method — it takes more time but it’s still the proper method — is to explain why ‘that guy’s’ approach is invalid.

    Sibelius doesn’t seem to have crossed the line that Schlesinger and Schneider did (although I don’t know the exact meaning of ‘reach out’). If you don’t know the story, Schlesinger threatened to ‘cut off’ the Times’ Revkin if he persisted in interviewing people of whom Schlesinger disapproved.

    If it had been me, Schlesinger would have been the one cut off. Lucky for him, Revkin is more tolerant.

    Just a piece of friendly advice.

  91. #92 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @All You Morons…you all looked way too hard into me using the name ChrisTY…this was not an insult, I just simply didn’t know if this person is a girl or boy? Just like another person named Rene I see leaving comments. I can’t tell if that is a boy or girl either. These multi-gender names really throw me off. So in order to cover all bases like I have with the end result of this issue, I used the term ChrisTY. I’m pretty sure Chris is a female though but may claim otherwise. Hey FuzzzOne, riddle me this…are fruit loops the cause of your allergies? Are vaccines the cause of your autism? You are too dumb to figure that one out. It’s funny how fuzzzone is the only one that called out anything toward @79, especially Chris who realized I called his bluff and he couldn’t answer yes to one of them. At least he was silenced except for a couple idiotic statements because he had nothing else. There is not one of you who could answer yes to any one of them, and that is what is so sad about all of you. And I even left hundreds out to keep it short and save my time. I type fast so I may have a few spelling errors here or there, but could someone show @84 how to use spell check. And maybe also to stop smoking crack just prior to writing something that makes absolutely no sense at all.

  92. #93 maydijo
    March 17, 2010

    Oh, damn! The only decent insult in there was directed at #84 and I was soooo hoping it was me, but alas, no . . .

    Oh well. I’ll just go back to my crack pipe.

  93. #94 DW
    March 17, 2010

    @ Chris: keep up the fine work!But be *very*,_very_ careful- I fear *someone* is getting too close to the Truth….possibly an investigative reporter or a documentary film maker.I think it’s time to call in *reinforcements*(she get up, closing her handbag-its large vermeil fastening makes an ominous *click*- and leaves)

  94. #95 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @Maydijo…you write some idiotic shit…do you even know what an autistic child is? I don’t think you know anything about this subject at all…nor do you appear to have past a third grade level education. A 10 year old responding to you could definitely sign his name “Smarter Than You”.

  95. #96 maydijo
    March 17, 2010

    Ahh, thank you! I just feel like I’ve won the Academy Award. I’d like to acknowledge everyone who was up for the “idiotic shit” category with me; you’re all so very talented and I share this award with all of you. I’d also like to think my parents, for always believing that I was capable of “idiotic shit”, and most of all I’d like to thank Orac for giving me the opportunity to really express myself.

  96. #97 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @96…that was actually pretty funny

  97. #98 Dangerous Bacon
    March 17, 2010

    “Nothing makes my newspaperman’s nerves twitch more than someone telling me: ‘You really don’t want to talk to that guy.'”

    True – but reporters are also aware (or should be) that nothing kills their credibility faster than continually gravitating straight to the loudest and most persistent crank, especially after they’ve generated reams of material that constantly lead down blind alleys.
    This is a lesson I learned myself while covering a city government/political beat. After awhile you realize why none of the other reporters are rushing to interview the “colorful” complainer who’s constantly haranguing the city council at meetings.

    Good science reporters are learning that AoA and its fellow antivaxers may be good for a flashy soundbite, but if you’re really doing your homework they will not be the centerpiece of your story, or get equal time with the people who actually know what they’re talking about. And that’s all Sebelius is saying – think twice about how you put out a “balanced” story. Giving Dr. Paul Offit and Jenny McCarthy equal time does not result in a balanced or fair piece.

    Thankfully, respected outlets such as the New York Times and Chicago Tribune already realize this.

  98. #99 Badger3k
    March 17, 2010

    The MST3k gang over at Rifftrax have a track available for the newer Wicker Man. It makes that movie watchable (but even then just barely) – that movie really, really bites.

  99. #100 Tyler DiPietro
    March 17, 2010

    STY apparently never learned how to divide his writing into multiple paragraphs. Irrelevant troll is irrelevant.

  100. #101 Rene Najera
    March 17, 2010

    @SmarterThanY’all
    If you had traveled the world, surely you would happen upon any number of French-speaking countries and/or people. In French, Rene with one “e” is for males. Renee with two “e”s is for females.
    Like “fiance” and “fiancee” are in English (adopted from French).
    To quote Stephen Colbert, “It’s French, bitch.”

    Besides, Kim Stagliano did a “quick google search” of my name and “outed” me on AoA. You, having been well traveled deep into the bowels of Science, must know how to google. In case you don’t, here, let me google that for you: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Rene+Najera

  101. #102 Marc
    March 17, 2010

    @Orac: “Because the scientific community is just like the Nazi occupation and AoA’s brave maverick resistance is just like the French Resistance. I wonder if there is a word for such a delusion.”

    I hope they don’t press this metaphor too hard and start booby trapping bridges and sabotaging railroads. If they do, we may actually need the Gestapo.

  102. #103 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @100…sorry I can’t be more accommodating to your special reading needs Tyler….I don’t have time for exact proper English or to worry about breaking it up into exact paragraphs…you are a joke if thats all you can write about on here…I added dots to separate things just for you “slow one”. Why don’t you be the first to respond to my @79? Tell me which ones you can say yes to Tyler if you can somehow get yourself to decipher my one large paragraph without getting confused or lost. I challenge you and look forward to your response. I have called everyone’s bluff on here already and it’s hilarious. Now I’m going to hear a bunch of bullshit lies that you all make up because I would have already had a response by now if anyone actually could answer yes to one of them. I really want ORAC to answer this question. He seems to know the least and I know all he does is google everything and spin it. He has no real knowledge of this subject at all, just the funny stuff he reads on the internet. How embarrassing to have his bluff called out on his own blog. I hope for his sake he responds. And just a hint to all of you who are wondering who this is. I am someone you all know very very well, however if I told you, you wouldn’t believe me for a second and I’m not about to blow my cover as it will ruin the final impact. I can also assure you that I am not who you think I am. I am not someone who has ever spoken to the public about this issue nor am I someone who is associated in any way with Jenny, JB, RFK, AofA, Blaxil, Wakefield, etc. etc. etc. I am however someone most people in this world are very familiar with and the last person you would expect to have researched and dug so deep into the roots of this issue with one single objective in mind. I am not attempting to re-open or further this debate, my objective is to close it, and trust me I will. Your ship and your world is about to sink forever, and you all will bury your heads in shame once you too realize the final answer. I’m wondering if I will actually half blame you all, given the fact that you are all so clueless and uneducated, how were you really to know I must ask myself. There are those that should have known, and did know, and they are the ones that have a freight train coming their way full speed ahead. Go ahead and give me a good laugh…take a guess who this is?

  103. #104 Science Mom
    March 17, 2010

    And why do I withhold this from the rest of society? Because until it is complete people such as yourselves could not possibly understand it.

    IT’S SO TWOO YUR NEVER GONNA BELIEVE IT MAN!!!11!!!

  104. #105 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @Rene….so you are saying you are a girl…good now I know thanks. Now I know Chris and Rene are both women. And again I am not sexist, women are actually going to be taking over many powerful positions in the near future and I am all for it. I just like to know who I am having a discussion with. Thanks again you French fuck.

  105. #106 maydijo
    March 17, 2010

    Hmmm, in 92 you insult someone else’s spelling and then you turn around and say that such insults are “a joke” . . . So, it’s okay if *you* insult other people for their mistakes, but not if you’re insulted in turn?

    To answer your question about who you are, I would suggest, someone with an over-inflated sense of their own importance in my world. And everyone else’s.

  106. #107 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @105…again yet another meaningless moronic comment. Is this all you people have in here. You are all making ORAC look really bad being so easily humiliated. Someone respond to my 79!!!!

  107. #108 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @Rene…got it Rene, you are a woman just like Chris. Thanks for the clarification.

  108. #109 KristinMH
    March 17, 2010

    Smarter Than You/Dr. I M Smart/Medicine Man (I think), you are not as entertaining as Happ*h was. S/he at least maintained a website with lots of weird dick pictures on it. You just blather on about how special you are and make juvenile insults. Sir, you disappoint me.

  109. #110 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    Ha! I bet Science Mom doesn’t understand one piece of the Science from either side of this argument, and I guarantee she has never talked to one of the Scientists who actually performed the “Science”. But I bet she can confirm to the public what doesn’t cause Autism!!! Haha, very laughable and almost ironic name.

  110. #111 Broken Link
    March 17, 2010

    I know, I know. STY is the Zodiac! It’s the same style of writing, the same delusions of grandeur.

  111. #112 Dan J
    March 17, 2010

    STY blathered:

    I used to be very open minded about this subject until I researched it nonstop for 6 years and traveled directly to the sources of the Science themselves.

    Pics or it didn’t happen!!

  112. #113 Science Mom
    March 17, 2010

    And just a hint to all of you who are wondering who this is. I am someone you all know very very well, however if I told you, you wouldn’t believe me for a second and I’m not about to blow my cover as it will ruin the final impact. I can also assure you that I am not who you think I am. I am not someone who has ever spoken to the public about this issue nor am I someone who is associated in any way with Jenny, JB, RFK, AofA, Blaxil, Wakefield, etc. etc. etc. I am however someone most people in this world are very familiar with and the last person you would expect to have researched and dug so deep into the roots of this issue with one single objective in mind.

    Oh hey everyone, it’s JOE THE PLUMBER.

  113. #114 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @Kristin…wow finally I know the sex of the person I am directing this to. Sorry to disappoint you, but this discussion has just been way too easy. I am absolutely rolling over all of you. I have called all of your bluffs without a single response. SOMEONE PLEASE RESPOND TO MY @79!!! I am trying so hard to give you people the opportunity to take me down and all I get are stupid ass responses such as 108 and 110 which are about as moronic as you can get. I am very disappointed in ORAC’s brainwashed followers. I wish he would step in and save you dumbasses from being literally embarrassed in front of each other. I don’t know how you will all blog amongst yourselves from this time forward. Good thing your identities are mostly hidden and you don’t have to see each other in public. You have all managed to disgrace the biggest disgrace of them all…ORAC!

  114. #115 Dan J
    March 17, 2010

    STY drooled:

    I am someone you all know very very well, however if I told you, you wouldn’t believe me for a second and I’m not about to blow my cover as it will ruin the final impact.

    I knew it! He’s Matt Nisbet!

  115. #116 Science Mom
    March 17, 2010

    Ha! I bet Science Mom doesn’t understand one piece of the Science from either side of this argument, and I guarantee she has never talked to one of the Scientists who actually performed the “Science”. But I bet she can confirm to the public what doesn’t cause Autism!!! Haha, very laughable and almost ironic name.

    Curse you STY, you really are smarter. I mean how didja know? But what makes you think I’m a woman? Mwahahaha!!!

    That’s right, Imma really a 40 year old man sitting in his knickers inhabiting his mum’s basement. All this time and it’s you that outs me. Drat.

  116. #117 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    Science Mom…either way, male or female I’m sure you are nasty…again respond to 79 instead of your stupid idiotic first grade comebacks as you are embarrassing yourself!!!! I challenge you, you sick twisted Man Mom.

  117. #118 Dan J
    March 17, 2010

    The latest in a long line of idiotic trolls complained:

    …again respond to 79 instead of your stupid idiotic first grade comebacks as you are embarrassing yourself!!!

    The troll doesn’t appear to realize that no one is answering his/her/its questions simply because the questions are irrelevant (Just as he/she/it is).

  118. #119 Science Mom
    March 17, 2010

    Have you interviewed the CDC, FDA, EPA, AAP, WHO, NIH

    So have you ever eaten China? France? Italy?

  119. #120 Elwoodius
    March 17, 2010

    Hmmmm, appears there’s a STY book release in October.

    If it’s not printed as a thick DIY pamphlet, I hope he has an editor who can add some commas, stops and paragraphs.

    But isn’t Oprah finishing this year? Which crank media mogul will push the book?

    Oh, I can’t wait.

    /srcsm

  120. #121 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @117…wow, just when I thought you people couldn’t get any dumber…let me explain this to someone who just doesn’t get it…79 is calling your bluff Dan…I’m trying to figure out if you all are really just a bunch of lazy fat asses that sit on your computer and gossip and pretend you know anything about anything just because you read the bullshit misinformation all over the internet…perfect example ORAC’s website…ORAC has never taken it upon himself to do any of the things that I have layed out in 79 (and those are just a few of the hundreds if not thousands of items)…and all of you are in the same boat…If you really care about this issue and want to get to the bottom of it why don’t you go after the most accurate information there is…THE SOURCE!!! Even Rene mentions that Kim Stagliano banned HER from Age of Autism. Has SHE ever talked to Kim about her adorable three daughters who all have Autism? Hell no SHE hasn’t! This is called ignorance. I used to be ignorant too, when I was like you all and just read the internet all day trying to figure it all out. Then I woke up and realized I needed to go after the information like no one has before, including the CDC. Why isn’t the CDC chasing down these Scientists who think they have a major piece of the Science that may implicate Vaccines as a cause of Autism and wanting to know everything about it? The CDC is responsible for determining what is causing this “disease” right? Why am I having to do this for them? I know the CDC’s Science better than the CDC themselves. I also know the other sides Science better than the CDC will ever know it. Put me up against the top ten CDC Scientists on the planet and I will anhialate them with their own Science and blow them away with the Science they don’t even know exists yet. The CDC needs to first recognize they have a devastating epidemic on their hands which will hopefully one day happen, maybe when the rate goes to 1 in 10 they will finally respond accordingly. In the meantime, I need ignorant people like you to stop pretending you know anything about this when you have not made any effort to really figure it out.

  121. #122 SmarterThanYou
    March 17, 2010

    Answer it now, now, now! 79 answer it now! If your a man than your a women. if your a women then your’e a men. Answer it now! now!now. 79. answer me. now. i have been all over and i want you to answer me now. i fucked science and she told me all her secrets so answer me now. 78 up there. answer it. losers.

  122. #123 Elwoodius
    March 17, 2010

    @79…

    Have you received a mercury loaded shot yourself and been introduced to the devastating world known as Autism

    Have YOU? This is what you’re implying. Can we actually experience autism by shooting mercury?

    Now I really, really can’t wait for the book.

  123. #124 Matthew Cline
    March 17, 2010

    So, then, STY, to truly understand the science involved you have to interview all of the scientists who did the research, and since we haven’t done so, we can’t claim to understand the science? If that’s what you’re saying, there isn’t any way to respond than to say that you’re flat-out wrong.

  124. #125 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @122…nice try imposter…you have some serious issues! Next time don’t forget to put spaces in your name “SmarterThanYou”. Silly imposter, rookie mistake. And I will now sign off. No reason for me to respond anymore. I have defeated the shit out of all of you and you have shamed your god ORAC. All of your bluffs have now been called and you can sign off tonight having been disgraced and shamed. That was so easy, not even the tiny challenge I was expecting. Bye Bye Dumbasses!

  125. #126 maydijo
    March 17, 2010

    I wanna know why STY is so obsessed with knowing everyone’s sex. Maybe if I was smart as STY I’d get it; but from where I’m sitting it just seems . . . odd?

  126. #127 snerd
    March 17, 2010

    Monomaniacal nutbag is monomaniacal.

    Lithium really isn’t that bad, though the liver tests suck.

  127. #128 Smarter Than You
    March 17, 2010

    @126 Because my father turned out to be my mother, you asshole. There, are you happy now? You’ve brought back some memories. Memories that I will now defeat with my science. I will annihilate them, but not my poor choice of grammer and speling. That’s right. Without the proper use of the English language, I have shamed you all. My science and my illiteracy has defeated and humiliated you. I can even proclaim that I have blinded you with science. Because my science is as deep as any ocean. As sweet as any harmony. So there, losers. Sack it. I mean, suck it. Yeah. Yeah. That’s the ticket. I meant to say suck it. With a u for umbilical cord, like the one I was attached to my father for four nine months. And now the spheres are in commotion and the elephants are in harmoney. I’m off to do my science. SIENCE RULES!

  128. #129 V. infernalis
    March 17, 2010

    So, the Discovery Institute is:
    – pro-intelligent design
    – pro-climate change denial
    and now,
    – supportive of anti-vaxxer lunacy.

    It’s a trifecta of stupid. It does make it easy to judge what the truth is on any matter, though: exactly the opposite of whatever the Discovery Institute’s stance is.

    I’ve expounded on this creationist-AGW-denier-anti-vaxxer link on my blog.

  129. #130 snerd
    March 17, 2010

    Hello, boys and girls, this is your old pal Stinky Wizzleteats. This is a song about a whale-no! This is a song about being happy. That’s right!
    It’s the Happy Happy Joy Joy song!

    Happy happy joy joy
    Happy happy joy joy
    Happy happy joy joy
    Happy happy joy joy
    Happy happy joy joy
    Happy happy joy joy
    Happy happy joy joy joy

    I don’t think you’re happy enough. That’s right! I’ll teach you to be happy. I’ll teach your grandmother to suck eggs.

    If’n you ain’ the graddaddy of all liars. The little critters of nature they don’t know that they’re ugly. That’s very funny! A fly marrying a bumblebee. I told you I’d shoot! But you didn’t believe me. Why didn’t you believe me?

    Happy happy happy happy
    Happy happy happy happy
    Happy happy joy joy joy

  130. #131 Dan J
    March 17, 2010

    Obvious troll was obvious, but not very much fun. Obvious troll fails, except in the vast spaces within his/her/its own disturbed, distorted, deranged, delusional mind.

  131. #132 Tyler DiPietro
    March 17, 2010

    I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone claim that their inability to write properly (or even legibly) indicates that they are more intelligent than I am. I would like to thank STY for the original experience.

  132. #133 Militant Agnostic
    March 17, 2010

    Perhaps Happeh changed his meds (hence the change of style) and ISP (thereby eluding ORAC’s banned troll filter).

  133. #134 The Gregarious Misanthrope
    March 18, 2010

    @STY

    In regards to your post at #79, I think it would be obvious that few people would have traveled as much and spoken to as many scientists as you claim to have done. You seem to be singularly driven in that regard, or so your claims would indicate.

    As Carl Sagan said, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” You’ve come in making some extraordinary claims and demanded that people prove they’ve gone to your self-proclaimed lengths, when you have to know that few could or would have, and made that your self-proclaimed yardstick as to whether anyone else has an opinion that is valid. The end result is that, by your measure, no one could have a valid opinion except you. So why did you drop by?

    Implicit in your statements is the notion that there is a difference between what scientists publish and what they believe to be true. Why else would personally interviewing people yield more insight than reading their papers? Could it be that the scientists harbored some personal opinion that could not be validated experimentally?

    Numerous commenters have asked for something, anything from you to prove you are not a complete crank. Surely, if it has taken you years to get all this data together, releasing a nugget or two here and now will not allow someone to connect the dots and scoop you.

    So how will the news be delivered? Book? Oprah? Exclusive in GQ? Skywriting? Grail-shaped beacon?

    So far you have been insulting, sexist, paragraphically challenged, and braggadocious to the extreme. Unsurprisingly, no one takes you seriously. So how about throwing us a bone?

  134. #135 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    @128, nice try you fucking moron! @133, I just had to comment on the sexist part, I find it very funny. First of all I’ve never told you if I was a man or woman. Would I still be sexist if I am a woman? Second of all, many women are going to be taking very powerful positions in the near future and I am all for it. The men are definitely much less intelligent these days and if you know anything at all about this subject then you probably already understand why. I can absolutely assure you that I am not sexist, quite the opposite actually. I can also assure you that I am not aware of any new book that is coming out, I’m sure as hell not writing one, so no need to worry about my lack of paragraphs. Do you use paragraphs in your texts too you time wasting dipshits? This is a useless meaningless completely inaccurate blog, who gives a shit about paragraphs. Anyone can hit enter twice, but I do it more to annoy the shit out of you people and make it harder on your small simple little brains to comprehend. Also, quit with the tunnel vision on talking to the Scientists, that is only one of the many things I have done that has been very impactful in piecing this together. This is just one of the many items you have not done. There are many many many more things that are absolutely essential in really comprehending and understanding this entire issue. It’s so funny how I can say many things and you tend to focus on just one because that is all your tiny brains can handle. I apologize for coming across so full of myself, however if there is one thing I do know, it’s that I know more about this subject in my tiny left toenail than all of you combined including ORAC and it disturbs me to see you all misinforming innocent people that may stumble across the site or come across each of you in life that may actually listen to you. The consequences could be devastating to them and their families. Your information is very dangerous to someone who just may listen to you and end up with their life turned upside down like mine was as a direct result of it. I encourage all of you to seek as much information about this subject as possible, because I can assure each and every one of you that you are dead wrong in your so called conclusions you have come to that are as useless as yourselves in life. You will all finally have the big lightbulb come on. Don’t worry, it won’t be much longer now. Enjoy looking at yourselves in the mirror while you can now, because you won’t be able to shortly.

  135. #136 The Panic Man
    March 18, 2010

    Hey, Dumber Than Shite, this is for you: http://i1034.photobucket.com/albums/a427/flatoutpanic/failed_troll1-300×300.jpg

    Also, snerd @#130, have a cookie. It’s not exactly an Internet, but fitting given the level of win.

  136. #137 Dedj
    March 18, 2010

    Personally, if I was answering @133, I would have provided something that, you know, actually answers the concerns expressed within, rather than answering ion a self-congratulating egotistic self centred semi-structured style that actually confirms that , yes, you are all bluff and bluster.

    Shame on you for dishonouring the people here for thinking they would fall for it.

    Kindly put something of substance up or piss off.

    Some of us here are autistic, some of us here work inautism services or have autistic children. Your talk about ‘understanding the entire issue’ is not only factually inaccurate and condescending, it’s as transparant as hell.

    You are either a moron or a very poor quality Poe. Unfortunetly for you, your arguement is so ridiculous, it’s impossible to tell the difference.

  137. #138 snerd
    March 18, 2010

    @134: tl;dr, but I did find a readable substitute:
    http://members.fortunecity.com/thewarden/madness.html

  138. #139 Ian
    March 18, 2010

    @Dedj

    If STY is a Poe, and you can’t tell, then he/she is a successful Poe.

    To answer 79, yes I have done all of those things and more. I have personally interviewed Science and have trekked the world talking to everyone and seeing everything first-hand. Of course, I could prove this to you, but you are so stupid that you couldn’t possibly understand. Also, I have an invisible flying car but I’m not going to show you because you’re not worthy to know of its existence. Also, I am sitting on your roof pooping in your chimney, but in such a way that you will never be able to find out if it’s true or not. And you’ll never find out who I REALLY am because I have constructed a series of false identities that are so elaborate, you’ll never know if it’s actually me.

    BUT SOON YOU SHALL ALL SEE!

    Non-falsifiable troll thinks circular arguments are delicious. He thinks that because he thinks things that are delicious are circular.

  139. #140 Dedj
    March 18, 2010

    Sorry, I meant that STY is a unentertaining Poe, and likely only succeeding by accident rather than skilled craft.

  140. #141 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    Morphing troll:

    Answer it now, now, now! 79 answer it now!

    I did answer, troll. What part of “yes” did you not understand.

    What exactly is your evidence again?

  141. #142 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    @140, Nothing was answered @129, This is only the start. The Discovery Institute will merge with AoA in te furtue. Together we shall be invincible and vaccines will end. Like Isaid before it won’t be much longer now. Enjoy looking in the mirror while you still can.

  142. #143 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    The last comment is obviously a Poe. Either from the delusional guy who has been posting, or by someone who is pretending to the morphing troll.

  143. #144 Dedj
    March 18, 2010

    When the troll responds to a post thaat is inadvertantly addressing someone that the troll claims is an imposter – and the troll doesn’t appear to have noticed that they supposedly didn’t make the post that is being responded to – it is highly suspicious, and a strong indication that maybe the troll is sock puppeting and dropped the ball (or that the parody of their arguement is so close to their actual arguement that even they didn’t notice.

    We could have someone presenting an arguement AND pretending to be their own Poe.

  144. #145 skeptifem
    March 18, 2010

    Wow, smarter than you thinks the word of a doctor is more important than their research. Actually working with doctors for awhile should clear up all that MD worship. Doctors screw up all the time, and believe stupid things just as often as anyone else.

  145. #146 (Zoo) Guard on Duty
    March 18, 2010

    Obvious troll is obvious troll. Do not feed obvious trolls. If you have any suitable food, give it to the guard on duty.

  146. #147 SisterMaryLoquacios
    March 18, 2010

    i have to say, this is some of the funniest shit i have ever read. i am so glad i stumbled across this blog a few days ago while researching DAN!

    what entertainment!

    i wish i had the mental organization (and dedication) to reply personally to many of the posters on here, but unfortunately i don’t. there are just too many things to say. not that my personal opinions would add much to the conversation, other than to say, “good point” or “thanks for the laughs!”

    @Rene and Ian
    Re: A modest proposal you shitbags

    Bwah-hahahahahahah! I almost choked on my wine! i fucking love profanity.

    @The Gregarious Misanthrope
    Re: your name

    best. name. ever. i wish i had thought of it myself. describes me perfectly. i totally want to steal it from you.

    @snerd
    Re: “You are either a moron or a very poor quality Poe”

    since i am new here, and do not yet know the lingo, could you please explain to me the use and meaning of the word, “poe?”

    @STY
    Re: your erroneous assertion that one must speak to all the researchers of a particular study before one can have any valid beliefs in the veracity of their claims

    are you seriously trying to assert this ridiculous premise? surely you can see the flaws in this argument? how could you ever believe anything at all? have you spoken with robert hook? francis crick? john snow? mathieu orfila? no? then how could you possibly have the audacity to comment/ expand/ or experiment on their contributions to science by researching autism?

    do you know anything about the scientific method, standardized procedures, or the evolution of scientific theory and rational thought?

    and why do you keep saying you are “someone most people in this world are very familiar with..?” have you BEEN all over the world? because i don’t care who the fuck you are, most people in the world haven’t heard of you. you could be jesus fucking christ, michael fucking jackson, the dalai lama, and lord shiva rolled into one, and most people still wouldn’t know who the fuck you are. do you know anything about population biology, cultural anthropology, or geography? or have you just not gotten around to tirelessly vetting those experts yet?

    your strange brew of solipsism, megalomania, apologia, and selective skepticism intrigues me…. it makes me wonder: have you spoken to anyone who could possibly be labeled a mental health professional? or how about someone who specializes in reasoning and critical thinking? what do their studies tell you?

  147. #148 Derangeder Than You
    March 18, 2010

    many women are going to be taking very powerful positions in the near future and I am all for it.

    Do you suppose these dominatrices make house calls, or does STY actually have to leave mommy’s basement to go enjoy their “powerful positions”?

  148. #149 Kristen
    March 18, 2010

    @92

    And maybe also to stop smoking crack just prior to writing something that makes absolutely no sense at all.

    Hide the pipe, guys…he’s on to us!

  149. #150 Todd W.
    March 18, 2010

    I interviewed the CDC once. But it was hard to keep all the voices separate. But the Universe. Now that was an interview. Mind-expanding, man.

    I was going to suggest that STY was John Best, but Best actually uses paragraphs on occasion. Also, STY didn’t call anyone “whore”. His posts are just as spittle-flecked, though.

  150. #151 triskelethecat
    March 18, 2010

    You know, I wish I had a killfile available for work; when I get home today I’ll use it on my home computer, but work doesn’t have it so I guess I’ll just have to skim over STY’s comments for REAL discussion.

  151. #152 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    Listen to me dipshits because you want be able to later when I’m done presenting you with my science. I dont take time to spell-sheik my shit because its a waste of time on this wonderfully engineered brain of mine. Like my mother/fatehr before me, i was the most intelligent in the trailer park, in the county, and in the greater Chataanooga area. I took that intelligence and interviewed the CDC, the WHO, the UN the Federation of Planets and even the association of trolls [of which i’m a lifetime member] and they all told me the same thing; vaccines cause autism. that is why everyone whose ever got one has fallen victim to that scourge. And if they dont vaccinate their kids and the kids are normal, then that’s perfect and clear proof that the vaccines DO cause autism. And, once and for all, to settle the issue of my sex: I have both a peen and poon, like Lady Gaga, and my mom.

  152. #153 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    @150…you are just an idiot imposter that again just shows you people don’t have brains or identities of your own…This has all been so hilarious to me. Once you all figured out that I called your bluff, your comments went to a whole new level of attempting to be funny and make fun of me because that is all that you have. You couldn’t quiet me with words of reason or some intelligent response. You all were like little first graders trying to make a good comeback that others would think was funny just to try and save your face. Most of you turn into sick twisted weirdos once the pressure is put on you to respond with something intelligent and the words that you write prove that you have no self control of your emotions and you act out of desparation. I find this pretty typical with you type of people. Do you realize how embarrassing that is for you? @Chris, it’s hilarious that you said “Yes”. Which one were you actually saying yes to? Tell me exactly which question you were able to say yes to? @144, you are stupid. I think 99% of doctors are fucking idiots that don’t know shit. It’s only the best of the best that really know and understand this issue, the rest are just puppets who say “the CDC says its safe so it must be safe”. How you interpreted anything to infer what you claim is a perfect example of you people spinning shit out of something that was never said. You all are the most pathetic “not being able to think for yourself” people I have ever encountered, and I have battled a lot of idiots such as yourselves. Anyone who thinks it is healthy to inject 62.5 mcg of mercury directly into a 12 lb baby’s bloodstream knows absolutely nothing about mercury and it’s extreme neurotoxicity at nanogram exposures. Since you are all dumb, 1000 nanograms equals one microgram. Do the math fuckers. Oh wait you can’t do that either, that is 62,500 nanograms. But since I am dumb and OJ says he didn’t kill Nicole and I believe him, I will go ahead and inject this into my baby who will be anhialated by this, but it’s perfectly ok because the CDC will be able to help me with my autistic child and give me all the answers to fix him afterword. Haha, now I’m starting to talk like you douchebag mother fuckers! I’m outs moronic people! Have fun reading my imposters from here on out!

  153. #154 Scott
    March 18, 2010

    I would be really interested to know if IPs are logged; it would be quite fascinating if posts 150 and 151 were actually the same IP. I suspect they are.

  154. #155 gaiainc
    March 18, 2010

    For being smarter than us, STY, you sure know diddly about how vaccines are given as well as how much mercury of what kind are in vaccines versus food (big hint–latter has more dangerous stuff than the former). What’s the quote? Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

  155. #156 Calli Arcale
    March 18, 2010

    Anyone who thinks it is healthy to inject 62.5 mcg of mercury directly into a 12 lb baby’s bloodstream knows absolutely nothing about mercury and it’s extreme neurotoxicity at nanogram exposures.

    1) Nobody is proposing injecting 62.5 mcg of inorganic mercury directly into anybody’s bloodstream, much less that of a 12 lb baby. Once upon a time (not anymore), ethyl mercury (an organic mercury compound which is readily excreted by the body) was included as a preservative in some vaccines injected intramuscularly (not intravenously) into infants, but that is no longer the case — infant vaccines are now Thimerosal-free. (Interestingly, there has been no significant change in outcomes, except for the increased cost.)

    2) The most common form of organic mercury in the human diet is methylmercury. The EPA recommends a maximum RDA of about 0.1 micrograms per kilo per day for pregnant and nursing women (which translates to roughly 50 micrograms per week for a 70 kilo woman). This should be understood as a conservative estimate for the most vulnerable population. Methylmercury has a 50 day half life, so it stays in the blood quite a while, raising its potential for harm. It’s also readily absorbed by the gut (unlike inorganic mercury), so it’s pretty much the worst-case scenario.

    3) Do the math, you say — 62.5 micrograms of organic mercury in a 12 pound baby. 12 pounds converted to metric (you really should resist mixing standards of measure if you want to be taken as scientific) is about 5.4 kg. If the 5.4 kg baby is a pregnant woman, that means the maximum RDA of methyl mercury is .54 micrograms. So the baby should really avoid eating more than .54 micrograms every day.

    4) Methyl mercury is not common in the diet unless you eat a lot of seafood (it’s a waste product of anerobic marine bacteria), and particularly eat a lot of long-lived apex predators (bluefin tuna, shark, etc). Bottle-fed infants should get none; breast-fed infants will get some of whatever’s in their mother’s bloodstream (hence why nursing mothers are advised to avoid methyl mercury sources), so as long as the momma is following recommendations, the baby shouldn’t be getting a significant amount of methyl mercury in the diet. Therefore, we can focus entirely on the injected organic mercury.

    5) 62.5 micrograms equates to roughly four months allowance of methyl mercury. So the child should probably not be eating that much every day.

    6) Lastly, and probably most significantly, Thimerosal is not methyl mercury. The standards for methyl mercury in the diet do not reflect ethyl mercury via intramuscular injection. While methyl mercury has a half-life of 50 days (which is why the daily allowance is so low; it has to operate on the assumption that you consume that amount every day and it builds up over a period of months), ethyl mercury has a half-life of two weeks in adults, and about a week in infants. This means that if you are giving vaccines on the currently recommended schedule, any Thimerosal in one set of vaccines has been completely expelled by the time the next dose is given. Thus, it has no opportunity to accumulate.

    In essence, you are comparing apples to oranges. You are also making it quite obvious you do not know what you are talking about, as you have not even bothered to familiarize yourself with the actual method of administration. Why, then, should anyone take you at all seriously?

  156. #157 Smarter Than U
    March 18, 2010

    Woo-hoo! I’m a college man! I won’t need my high school diploma any more! [sets fire to it and starts singing]

    I am so smart!
    I am so smart!
    I am so smart!
    I am so smart!

    S-M-R-T!

    I mean, S-M-A-R-T…

  157. #158 Ian
    March 18, 2010

    @Calli Arcale #154

    Well if you’re going to bring FACTS into the discussion, we might as well just all go home.

  158. #159 Fuzzzone
    March 18, 2010

    Seriously, Calli. You can use facts to prove anything that’s even remotely true.

  159. #160 historygeek
    March 18, 2010

    wow the Discovery Institute merging with AoA that would be the black hole of stupid. there might be something to the end of the world in 2012 after all. the black hole of stupid cause the poles to shift and cats and dogs to sleep with each other. oh the horror how will i live with myself.

    and #61 that was the best post ever almost choked on my coffee thanks for the laugh

  160. #161 kittywhumpus
    March 18, 2010

    I am still giggling over “A Modest Proposal, You Shitbags.”

  161. #162 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    you Bastards, you think your science and logic can convince me, no i cant becasue i’ve seen teh damage that you so called doctors are inflicting on the children EVEY DAY tehh, wipes spit away from mouth. NOT FUCKING FUNNY douchebags! Mercury is deadly in any concentration! yes even in nanogrammes and it’s in water in nanogrammes, oh hang on a minute…, and *rabid meh* the children are getting mercury in vaccines! even though thiomersal is not the same as elemental mercury, that’s kinda basic sciecne you know ELEMENTS versus COMPUOUNUIUIDS or whaevter you doctors acall them. Think of the KIDS GODDAMAMAM IT!!

  162. #163 Todd W.
    March 18, 2010

    I got it! STY is Cartman from South Park!

  163. #164 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    Fuckers! Stop making fun of me. Is that the only fucking way you can fucking deal with my intelligence? You can’t use reason or anything like that? Don’t you know I am the one who went to the depths of science, fucked it twice, and came back with all this knowledge? I didn’t need college or even high school. I know the truth. I know what happens. Mercury is shipped to Earth from that planet by the illuminati, shitbags. You want to inject all of that planets shit into your veins? Go ahead. When your all walking around like zombies, as you are now you bunch of fuckin sheep, I’ll be your king. You will bow to me and only to me. Not one of your little studies there is legitimate, I know it. Ive done seen all them things online where it says so. Compared to you, Kenneth Copeland makes more sense. I hate you. I hate you. I hate you. Answer 79, bitches. Answer me now! I demand it of you. you oh me that much!

  164. #165 David N. Brown
    March 18, 2010

    historygeek,
    I and several family members are involved with an organization that promotes “intelligent design”. Within this circle, I have seen strong criticism of the Discovery Institute, mainly over too much involvement with “young-Earth” creationism.

  165. #166 Scientizzle
    March 18, 2010

    “A Modest Proposal, You Shitbags”

    Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

  166. #167 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    @154…you are the dumbest of dumb and like to talk like you are smart…1) Yes vaccines are given “intramuscular” that is very common and basic knowledge I never said the word “intraveneous”, where do you think it ends up though dumbass? Your “once upon of time” lasted until at least 2002 and most likely 2004 with all of the backstock…this was not recalled stupid ass. Worse yet, in 2004 they started giving flu shots to pregnant women which is the most devastating thing you could possibly expose a developing fetus to. “Readily excreted from the body”…you are a fucking idiot. Ethyl, as organic mercury can readily cross into the brain just as Methyl does, however Ethyl de-ethylates into the inorganic form much quicker than Methyl which basically locks it into the brain and inorganic can’t cross back out like organic. Methyl can wash in and out and takes much longer to de-methylate into inorganic that is why it has such a short half life in the brain. This is why your comments are such a joke. You don’t have to teach me about the guideline dumbass, I’m surprised you even know it. The problem is this guideline is based on someone eating fish (methyl organic mercury) and Burbacher proves in his monkey studies that they do not act alike once in the brain and the guideline should not be the same. In the end, much more inorganic mercury was found in the brain of those monkeys exposed to Ethyl vs. those monkeys exposed to Methyl. So in fact if we actually had a guideline for Ethyl mercury exposure, it would be way less than that of Methyl. Also in regards to your #1, children are given 2 flu shots the first year of life and one every year after, not to mention the even more horendous effects of exposing them to it in-utero. 94% of all flu shots still contain the full 25 mcg of mercury dumbass, good luck finding one. Childhood vaccines are not all thimerosal free as you claim so your credibility can be ruled out instantly. The problem is even worse now because they are exposing the pregnant women to this neurotoxin and it will anhialate a susceptible developing fetus and this year pregnant women were given two mercury loaded flu shots (regular and swine). Have you ever heard of Rho-gam Moms dumbass? I have interviewed hundreds of them for an obvious reason. You can refer to your little study of Rho-gam Moms if you want, but it is a joke and try telling that to a Rho-gam Mom that has 4 Autistic Children who were all exposed to thimerosal in-utero, but just by coincidence her only child that didn’t get the exposure is perfectly healthy. 2) I have already addressed this…however just for your “edification” Ethyl mercury was found to have a half life in the brain of 20 years. Hmmm would I rather have 50 days or 20 years? I know which one you have! 3) This is the dumbest analogy I have seen yet and makes me think you don’t really understand what I am talking about. Your calculations would equate to a child receiving 115 times the EPA guideline for Methyl Mercury IN ONE DAY not over a 4 month period!!! And this guideline is established for a much less toxic form, not to mention all of the synergistic effects with the aluminum and other ingredients in the vaccine. In laboratory the thimerosal solution is even more toxic to brain neurons than ethyl mercury by itself. Whatever you were trying to say in this one was completely elementary in thinking. We are not talking about the baby eating sushi here pal, we are talking about getting a completely different form of mercury injected into his body at hundreds of times the “guideline” within minutes, not 4 months. Damn you are dumb! 4) No you can’t focus entirely on the ethyl mercury…that is a very inaccurate statement and it is a common mistake amongst people who don’t look at the entire picture here and don’t really understand EVERYTHING. Many of these children are damaged before they are even born by the amalgams in the mother’s mouths, or the sushi they have eaten even before they were pregnant. You don’t understand how cummulative this metal is. It builds and builds and builds and causes damage and more damage. Then when a woman gets pregnant the developing fetus is incredibly susceptible to the effects of the mercury in the mother’s body. Many of these mothers are breathing in the vapors from their mouths every single day that child is trying to develop in the womb. Oh, but I’m sure you will try to say the mercury is stable once in amalgam form just like many dentists claim. Don’t even try it, I have don’t experiments with amalgams and seen the vapors come off from things like brushing it lightly, and a mercury vapor analyzer registered…guess what? MERCURY! To rule these types of exposures out is a fatal flaw, but it doesn’t surprise me given who I am discussing this with. 5) You are a clown and this has been addressed. 6) I have addressed most of this, however you have made a big mistake. Ethyl Mercury has a half life of 2 weeks in the blood maybe, but just because it leaves the blood doesn’t mean it left the body. Like I said before, more inorganic mercury was found in the brain in the monkeys exposed to Ethyl in the end, vs. those exposed to Methyl. Do you suppose this inorganic mercury will have left the brain by the next round of vaccines? NOT A CHANCE IN HELL!!! You are very elementary in your entire thinking process. I almost didn’t respond to you because your points were so bad. The only reason I did is because you tried to sound like you were actually smart, when in fact your words are riddled with errors and flaws and fatal mistakes. Do some more research there tough guy!

  167. #168 Ian
    March 18, 2010

    I almost didn’t respond to you because your points were so bad.

    Next time, follow your instincts.

  168. #169 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    Haha Ian, I’m glad you stood down and thats all you could think of bitch!

  169. #170 Fuzzzone
    March 18, 2010

    STY: No one here has been even one-tenth as rude to you as you have routinely been to each person with whom you’ve interacted. Why do you feel the need to water down your commentary with needless name-calling and profanity? If your ideas and research can stand up to the light of day then you are only doing yourself and them a great disservice.

    I have marked my calender to pop up a reminder at the end of November, per your declaration. May I assume that we will hear from you then to provide links, etc to your paradigm-shifting research?

  170. #171 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    @Fuzzzone…point taken, however I get a little wound up when I’m dealing with the opinions of ignorance, and not the opinions of issue related educated people. I never in a million years would try to convince innocent people about something that I didn’t REALLY know about and put their lives at risk. This is what many of these people do, that is where the anger comes from. I won’t be posting much more on here anyway, but if I do I will try to minimize the language and insults. But you must also remember, it’s many against one here :)

  171. #172 Science Mom
    March 18, 2010

    Ethyl mercury was found to have a half life in the brain of 20 years. Hmmm would I rather have 50 days or 20 years?

    Ethyl Mercury has a half life of 2 weeks in the blood maybe, but just because it leaves the blood doesn’t mean it left the body.

    So much for interviewing Thomas Burbacher.

  172. #173 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    @Fuzzzone…Science Mom makes it very hard for me to take your advice…Hey Science Mom, do you know the difference between “blood” and “brain”? Read the two sentences carefully and tell me the difference. Ethyl mercury does leave the blood very quickly…BECAUSE IT GOES DIRECTLY INTO THE BRAIN!!!! I forgot, you especially are not very sharp so let me further explain it to you. “20 years in the brain”..”2 weeks in the blood”….you got that now?

  173. #174 Smarter Then You
    March 18, 2010

    @171, 169, 167, 165, 162, 160 and some others Your all impostors I’m the real Smarter Than YOU. You impersonate me and changed the valid points I made before into something evil. Everyone don’t believe the stupid shit this retards wrote in these posts. Thats not the real me. Read what I wrote before those posts thats the TRUTH. Vaccines cause autism and with the union of DI and AoA in the future we will defeat them.

  174. #175 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    Based on her complete lack of understanding of the “Science” I’m starting to think Science Mom is Allison Singer.

  175. #176 Ian
    March 18, 2010

    But you must also remember, it’s many against one here

    It was many against NONE before you started railing about how much smarter you were than everyone. Since you’re not trying to persuade anyone of anything other than your ability to type long tracts of nonsense sprinkled with insults, I’m not sure why you bothered at all. We mock you for the same reason an adult might play-fight with a child – it’s fun for both sides and we know that no real damage can be done by someone so weak.

  176. #177 Fuzzzone
    March 18, 2010

    STY: Provided that you truly believe in the validity of what you’re saying, then I’d recommend to you two quotes. They are from sources with whom I don’t always (or even often) agree, but in these cases I give them their due.

    “Patience is the companion of wisdom.” – St. Augustine

    and

    “Truth persuades by teaching” – Tertullian

  177. #178 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    Haha 172! Are you people trying to show everyone else how dumb you are. Try spelling “Smarter ThAn You” correctly and maybe you will be able to pretend to be me. That’s seriously all you can do? At least Calli gave it a half assed attempt, the only one who has so far. All of the rest of you just don’t have brains. Except you Fuzzzone, because I want to be nice to you now.

  178. #179 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    @Ian…I must remind you that you haven’t said one thing of any relation to this issue yet…you have been completely silenced by this troll. How does that feel? I have anhialated everything and anything you people have said on here and proven you are all imposters and cowards who really know absolutely nothing about this subject, all you do is mislead the innocent people. Stop preaching about something you know nothing about and then you won’t have to deal with someone like me…fuckface…sorry fuzzzone

  179. #180 jen
    March 18, 2010

    I am digging Smarter Than You’s points.

  180. #181 Smarter Than YOu
    March 18, 2010

    @176 I made a mistake impostor and you twisted abused my logic again to drive a false argument. And I don’t really care what Fuzzy has to say about religion either. I made serious good points about the vaccines-autism connection and as opposed to the other dumbshits here I interviewed Paul Offit about them. There is clearly a connection and I prooved before that the studies you idiots threw at me at 74 are not good you just googled them to drive the argument.

  181. #182 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    And I should know about cowards, being how I don’t reveal my real name. And I should know about spelling, being how I can’t seem to spell impostors (with an “o”, numnuts) if my credibility depended on it. I mean, you guys don’t get it, do you? i’m here trying to bring you truth and all you do is get aggravated because I throw out the occasional “fuck” here and there, or because I call you fuckfaces? Whatever happened to all that tolerance and shit you liberals advocate? Ooooh… it’s okay as long as someone is scientifically sound. The minute I start regurgitating Age of Autism’s talking points and Woody Harrelson’s warnings about 2012, you get all defensive. Fuck, guys, can’t you take a yoke? i mean, seriously.

  182. #183 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    @179…if you are going to pretend to be me “Smarter Than YOu” you better speak beyond a first grade level otherwise forget about it. It is hilarious that this is all you people have. Hey Kathleen Seidel, why don’t you start debating me? You think you know it all and I laugh at your opinions all day long. You are even worse than ORAC! Let’s have a chat sometime.

  183. #184 Ian
    March 18, 2010

    you have been completely silenced by this troll. How does that feel? I have anhialated everything and anything you people have said on here and proven you are all imposters and cowards who really know absolutely nothing about this subject

    I think you should probably look up the meaning of the word “silenced”. Also, “proof”. All you’ve done is provide a few moments of hilarious distraction for me at the more boring times during my work day. Thanks for that, BTW.

    You don’t have to remind me that I haven’t said anything in relation to the issue… at all… ever… That’s because I actually DON’T know anything about thimerosal/autism. I started reading this blog around the same time I started reading AoA, and the reason I stuck around here is because people here actually seem to know something about science. I figured that if I wanted to LEARN something, it would be better to deal with people with brains, rather than psychopaths who scream abuse every time someone disagrees with them.

    Then you showed up and ruined it ALL! You big meanie.

  184. #185 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    @180, you’re an idiot and a manipulator. I said before clearly that I don’t speak that well and now you’re trying to humiliate me by impersonating me and then talking with all your academic elitist socialist perfect language. You’re on of the ppl on this blog who have been disagreeing with me from the start maybe one of these flase scientists like AFLAC. Go somewhere else dipshite and spit your bullshit there/

  185. #186 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    @Ian…poor sad little Ian…did you get teased about your name when you were a child? I’m sorry you are so sensitive, but I HAVE NO TIME FOR DIPSHITS SORRY! Move your little ass on to the next ORAC subject then full of dumbasses just like yourself.

  186. #187 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    Jen, @180 is a dipshit imposter…don’t listen to him…you obviously have an open mind to this subject and understand when someone is talking some sense. It’s good to see someone in here that actually has a brain and can use it to think. Thanks. And to Ian again, that is correct you do not know anything about thimerosal/autism, but guess what I do! So don’t even try to talk to me about this subject until you educate yourself on it a little bit first.

  187. #188 Ian
    March 18, 2010

    So don’t even try to talk to me about this subject until you educate yourself on it a little bit first.

    But I HAVEN’T tried talking to you about the subject. For that exact reason. And I SAID that! It’s almost as though you can’t read…

    However, I am very educated on the subject of how to deal with fools. I studied under the greatest teacher of all. His true name has been lost to the ages, but now he goes by a much simpler title: Mr. T. Hence, I pity you, fool.

    And clearly you have nothing BUT time for dipshits, because you’ve now been posting on this thread for more than 24 hours. You seem to have ABUNDANT time. Wanna play Connect 4?

  188. #189 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    No! I am Smarter Than You, bitches! And I am smarter than you, too, bitches, again. And stuff. Fat assess. You have all this time to reply to me? What the hell do you do all day? Jesus, how can you have so much free time? I bet you don’t have a fucking life.

  189. #190 Ian
    March 18, 2010

    @189

    I bow to your superior argument, and wilt before the awesome might of your rhetorical skill. Please forgive me for the error of my ways, thinking that I could ever stand up to your mighty cranial majesty.

  190. #191 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    @Ian…a fool is someone who tries to include himself in a discussion he knows nothing about. A fool is someone with the name Ian, setup from the beginning to be a failure by his parents. I’m sure Mr. T has taught you something, but that discussion is for a different type of blog. And yes, I do have the time to do this because my entire life revolves around this issue right now and I make sure I know every single point idiots like you and others on here try to bring up so I can anhialate your points in the end result. I do this for a very specific reason, and it is not even close to a waste of time for me. I have done this for years now trying to acquire any and all information, no matter how stupid it is, so I have not left one single base unturned. Every time I have done this it just reinforces everything I know and loads me with the ammunition I need to counter any and every point fools like you have. Thanks again to yet another idiot for your help.

  191. #192 Seamus Ruah
    March 18, 2010

    Poe is still Poe’ing?

    u can has cracker!

  192. #193 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    @Ian…good job at giving yourself away as the imposter…nice one moron.

  193. #194 Ian
    March 18, 2010

    @191

    You’re such a bad impostor. The REAL STY (#189) is much more incoherent and rabid. Why don’t you shut up and let the REAL master of mental magic speak.

    Hey everyone! This guy’s a great big phony! You’re a great big phony, you know that? That’s right, a big FAT phony!

  194. #195 Calli Arcale
    March 18, 2010

    Smarter Than You @ 162:
    Fuckers! Stop making fun of me. Is that the only fucking way you can fucking deal with my intelligence? You can’t use reason or anything like that?

    Yes, it is a shame when people stoop to your level, isn’t it? I’ll attempt to not do so, though I acknowledge some of the words may be difficult for you, as they have more than four letters.

    @165:
    1) Yes vaccines are given “intramuscular” that is very common and basic knowledge I never said the word “intraveneous”, where do you think it ends up though dumbass?

    No, you said “directly into the bloodstream”, which is what “intravenous” means. Perhaps I should apologize for using big words; I thought your handle meant you actually were somewhat erudite.

    Your “once upon of time” lasted until at least 2002 and most likely 2004 with all of the backstock…this was not recalled stupid ass.

    Correction; it lasted until 1999. The backstock ran out in 2002, though I can understand where if you were confused about the actual date, you might think the date the backstock ran out would be 2004. In any case, 2004 is six years ago; that is plenty long enough to see whether or not there has been a reduction in autism cases, as it is typically diagnosed before that age. There hasn’t been a reduction; on the contrary, the number has continued to rise at a steady rate (though it does depend on how you count it).

    (As I sidenote, I have no doubt whatsoever that my ass is stupid compared to yours. After all, I do not keep my brains in mine.)

    Worse yet, in 2004 they started giving flu shots to pregnant women which is the most devastating thing you could possibly expose a developing fetus to.

    Actually, they started giving flu shots to pregnant women long before that. I know, because I got a flu shot in 2003 while pregnant. And I think you’ll find that there are much more devasting things to which a developing fetus can be exposed. Rubella, for instance.

    “Readily excreted from the body”…you are a fucking idiot. Ethyl, as organic mercury can readily cross into the brain just as Methyl does, however Ethyl de-ethylates into the inorganic form much quicker than Methyl which basically locks it into the brain and inorganic can’t cross back out like organic. Methyl can wash in and out and takes much longer to de-methylate into inorganic that is why it has such a short half life in the brain.

    I’m sorry, I thought you were interested in facts, not fantasy. Actual scientific research has determined that the half-life of ethyl mercury is two weeks, whereas methyl mercury is 50 days. That seems significant to me; I’m not sure why it isn’t to you.

    Also in regards to your #1, children are given 2 flu shots the first year of life and one every year after, not to mention the even more horendous effects of exposing them to it in-utero.

    Flu shots are not compulsory; children only receive them if the parents request it. They are available in several forumlations. The live flu vaccine (e.g. Flumist) cannot contain Thimerosal, as this renders it ineffective, but infants cannot safely receive live flu vaccine, so they must use inactivated flu vaccine. This is available in several formulations. I was curious to see what the real rations were, as your 94% figure seemed unlikely. So I decided to do a little research.

    Influenza vaccines are made by several different companies and come in a variety of doses. So I had to do a bit of reading to find this.

    Fluzone, made by Sanofi Pasteur, is one of the more common, and is as far as I can tell, the only one recommended for infants and toddlers. It comes in a 5mL multidose vial (with thimerosal), a 0.25 mL prefilled pediatric dose for 6-36 months of age, a 0.5 ml prefilled syringe for 36 months and up, and a single dose vial for 36 months and up. The prefilled syringes and the single dose vial are all thimerosal-free, and don’t even use thimerosal in the manufacturing process. Only the 0.25 mL prefilled dose is supposed to be used in infants, but if someone draws a 0.25 mL dose out of a 5 mL multidose vial, it will contain 12.5 mcg of thimerosal. (The dose you cited is for the adult dose, not the pediatric dose.)

    Fluarix, made by Glaxo Smith Kline, is only available in one form: a 0.5 mL prefilled syringe (and thus is not suitable for infants). It contains no thimerosal, but thimerosal is used in the manufacturing process and a trace amount may remain. (“Trace” in this case is defined as less than 1 microgram.)

    Fluvirin, by Novartis, is, available in both a prefilled 0.5 mL syringe containing only trace amounts of thimerosal (it is used in the manufacturing process, but removed) and a 5 mL vial (which contains up to 24.5 mcg of thimerosal per 0.5 mL dose). It is not recommended for infants.

    The problem is even worse now because they are exposing the pregnant women to this neurotoxin and it will anhialate a susceptible developing fetus and this year pregnant women were given two mercury loaded flu shots (regular and swine).

    Given that 2009 H1N1 was particularly deadly in pregnant women, I think this was very sensible.

    Have you ever heard of Rho-gam Moms dumbass? I have interviewed hundreds of them for an obvious reason.

    “Rho-gam Moms”? Is this an actual group, or something?

    I am a mother, and my blood type is A-. Therefore, I received RhoGAM during my first pregnancy. (I used a competing immunoglobulin product on my second pregnancy. I think it was Gamulin Rh.) I don’t know about you, but I much prefer that to dead babies, especially as it did not harm either of my babies. It’s one of the great successes of modern medicine, having virtually eliminated Rh disease of the fetus in the developed world.

    2) I have already addressed this…however just for your “edification” Ethyl mercury was found to have a half life in the brain of 20 years. Hmmm would I rather have 50 days or 20 years? I know which one you have!

    I don’t know where that was found, because studies with actual human beings, including actual human infants, found that it has a halflife of only 2 weeks.

    3) This is the dumbest analogy I have seen yet and makes me think you don’t really understand what I am talking about. Your calculations would equate to a child receiving 115 times the EPA guideline for Methyl Mercury IN ONE DAY not over a 4 month period!!! And this guideline is established for a much less toxic form, not to mention all of the synergistic effects with the aluminum and other ingredients in the vaccine.

    It isn’t an analogy; it’s math. However, your confusion is understandable, as you didn’t understand how a person might think “injected directly into the bloodstream” meant the same thing as “intravenous”.

    A child who is receiving ethyl mercury is not receiving 115 times the EPA guideline for methyl mercury. Perhaps you are confused, because only a short while back in the same post, you indicated that you knew they were different substances, though you were dramatically mistaken on the half-life of one.

    Clearly I did not make the point clearly enough for you.

    Nobody gives a vaccine daily for four months, and babies aren’t eating them, so the EPA guidelines for fish consumption are not a very good parallel.

    As for synergistic effects with aluminum, I’d be interested to know what synergistic effects you propose exist.

    In laboratory the thimerosal solution is even more toxic to brain neurons than ethyl mercury by itself.

    Thimerosal (also called thiomerosal, and trademarked as Merthiolate) is sodium ethylmercurithiosalicylate. It decomposes very rapidly in the body to ethyl mercury and thiosalicylate. It was invented in 1927 and widely marketed as a topical antiseptic. 1.9% of the population is allergic to it; for them, the thimerosal-free versions of vaccines are critical. Use of the chemical has dwindled dramatically, from the widespread use in the 1930s to only small exposures nowdays. Yet somehow, you expect me to believe harm from it has *increased*. Strange.

    We are not talking about the baby eating sushi here pal, we are talking about getting a completely different form of mercury injected into his body at hundreds of times the “guideline” within minutes, not 4 months. Damn you are dumb!

    Ah, so you did understand my point. You just didn’t grasp what it meant.

    Recommended daily allowance isn’t the same as a toxic threshhold. The RDA assumes you are getting that amount every day. Methyl mercury builds up; if you take that amount for four months, you will be perfectly fine. If you take that amount in one day and then lay off the fish, you will be perfectly fine.

    No you can’t focus entirely on the ethyl mercury…that is a very inaccurate statement and it is a common mistake amongst people who don’t look at the entire picture here and don’t really understand EVERYTHING. Many of these children are damaged before they are even born by the amalgams in the mother’s mouths, or the sushi they have eaten even before they were pregnant.

    Interesting; a moment ago, you were focusing in on one thing; now you want me to see the big picture? Mercury amalgam fillings are another matter; they are quite safe as long as no idiots come along to con the patient into having them drilled out, which turns the substance, once safely locked away, into an ingestible powder. Fortunately, this is inorganic mercury, and not easily absorbed by the body.

    Sushi I have already discussed, by talking about the consumption of marine apex predators, but you clearly did not notice. That’s all right; it’s perfectly consistent with your reading comprehension otherwise.

    Don’t even try it, I have don’t experiments with amalgams and seen the vapors come off from things like brushing it lightly, and a mercury vapor analyzer registered…guess what? MERCURY!

    I’d be curious to know what your methodology was. Assuming, of course, that you really did perform the experiment you claimed.

    5) You are a clown and this has been addressed.

    Wow, what brilliant repartee! No wonder you are smarter than everyone else, if that is a prime example of your debate skill. The point of #5 was indeed addressed before; it’s the part you clearly still claim to understand yet don’t apply: that the recommendations are not directly comparable to the situation in vaccination.

    6) I have addressed most of this, however you have made a big mistake. Ethyl Mercury has a half life of 2 weeks in the blood maybe, but just because it leaves the blood doesn’t mean it left the body.

    Really? YOu just said it has a half-life of 20 years. Consistency is perhaps too much to hope from you. Ethyl mercury, like methyl mercury, passes easily across the blood-brain barrier and through all tissues of the body; it cannot be sequestered anywhere.

    Like I said before, more inorganic mercury was found in the brain in the monkeys exposed to Ethyl in the end, vs. those exposed to Methyl. Do you suppose this inorganic mercury will have left the brain by the next round of vaccines? NOT A CHANCE IN HELL!!!

    I am not familiar with the study that you’re referring to, but it does contradict other studies, which is remarkable. No matter, though. We don’t have to rely on monkey studies. Studies of human infants have shown quite a different outcome: in human infants, ethyl mercury has a half-life of only 3.7 days. (In adults, it’s over two weeks, but still much less than the 44-50 days I’ve seen cited for methyl mercury.)

    Do some more research there tough guy!

    Not that it matters especially, but I am actually a woman. And I would suggest research for you as well. Your numbers are dramatically wrong. I do not believe you are lying or making things up, though. I think what you believe to be “research” is reading a bunch of websites which correspond to your preexisting opinions, rather than actually reading scientific studies. I must confess, though, that I greatly doubt your claim of having studied mercury amalgam fillings and found that they outgas inorganic mercury vapors, though I am quite willing to change my opinion if you are willing to share your methodology.

  195. #196 Science Mom
    March 18, 2010

    (As I sidenote, I have no doubt whatsoever that my ass is stupid compared to yours. After all, I do not keep my brains in mine.),

    This is a win, girl.

    I am a mother, and my blood type is A-. Therefore, I received RhoGAM during my first pregnancy. (I used a competing immunoglobulin product on my second pregnancy. I think it was Gamulin Rh.) I don’t know about you, but I much prefer that to dead babies, especially as it did not harm either of my babies. It’s one of the great successes of modern medicine, having virtually eliminated Rh disease of the fetus in the developed world.

    These products have been thimerosal-free since before April, 2001 too.

  196. #197 Otto
    March 18, 2010

    “I am quite willing to change my opinion if you are willing to share your methodology.”

    No doubt the sekrit would anhialate you.

  197. #198 MI Dawn
    March 18, 2010

    Ah, I loves me some killfile. Killfiled STY and all variations. Calli, I enjoyed your takedown @195, but I am definitely not sorry I didn’t read the rant and I have NO intentions of unkilling the troll. Orac rarely blocks people from posting, but I’ve had my full of him/her/it.

  198. #199 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    @Calli in response to 195: 1) No correction needed…it is common knowledge the AAP and others recommended phasing thimerosal out in 1999, however everyone also knows it was not recalled and backstock lasted until at least 2002 but nobody really knows the exact date. I have personally seen many mercury loaded childhood vaccines with an expiration date of 2004, hence the 2004. Again such a weak response grasping at straws. However I will admit I, out of typing and thinking extremely fast used the words “directly into the bloodstream” which were misleading however the end result is the same, it ends up in the bloodstream. I should have said directly into the body without the somewhat protective mechanisms associated with the digestive system. Get over this one, it’s rediculous to even mention. Also, for you to think that all the mercury has been removed and the rates are still going up is absurd. They have not removed all of the mercury, they have just shifted it all around. I would rather give a 10 or 12 pound baby a mercury loaded shot than give a pregnant women with a .5 pound developing fetus a shot, or better yet two shots with 25 mcg in it. Are you kidding me, you actually think the rate will reduce when we are now giving 50 mcg of mercury to all pregnant women in the regular flu shot and swine flu shot? You are crazy! To hear that claim is the most bullshit thing I could ever hear. And that is about the only thing I do hear from you people because you know your epidemiology studies are so flawed you can’t reference them anymore. You all know this and that is why you grab onto the idiotic claim that mercury has been removed and the rates keep going up. Do you know that the latest CDC rate of 1 in 110 was based on 8 year olds in 2006. This means these children were born in 1998, and received the fully loaded vaccines, and also in 2004 started getting the flu shots. These kids received more mercury than anyone. And the so called rate just jumped from 1 in 150 to 1 in 110 after mercury was removed. Bullshit, read the study and this is still during a very devastating period where they were getting floored after they were born. Now they are getting floored before they are born instead when they are much more susceptible to the effects and at a much more critical time in their development. You are so completely wrong on this one, but nice elementary try once again. And yes they may have been giving flu shots to some pregnant women prior to 2004, however this is when they started the big push for it and it was officially recommended for pregnant women and children. And to clarify a very important fact, Doctors push these flu shots like they are giving out candy. They don’t wait for you to ask for one, that is hilarious. They make you feel guilty if you don’t get one and even though there are very tiny numbers of thimerosal free ones, nobody knows to ask for one. I had pregnant friends this year that were made to feel guilty they didn’t get one, even though the doctors didn’t even have a thimerosal free version. These flu shots are a huge devastating problem right now and I can’t possibly understand how you think the rates could come even close to dropping…hilarious. What research are you referring to with the half life of ethyl being 2 weeks vs. methyl 50 days? Are you referring to the study that just shows the half life in the blood? That is an obvious one, what you don’t understand is the half life of mercury in the brain and the study that proves the half life of ethyl in the brain being 20 years and the half life of methyl in the brain being 20 to 30 days. You need to understand when it comes to the toxicity of these two different forms, the determining factor of nuerotoxicity and the end result to the subject depends on how much inorganic mercury is deposited in the brain. Burbacher has proven much more inorganic mercury is deposited in the brain in the end vs. the methyl mercury. THIS IS KEY BECAUSE THIS IS WHY THESE KIDS ARE SICK. You can preach to me all day about your half life shit, but what it ultimately comes down to is how much mercury is in the brain after exposure. I’m sorry to tell you but Ethyl by far exceeds Methyl. Stop wasting your time with this one. And I see you are just as dumb as Science Mom and you don’t understand the difference between “blood” and “brain”. Read my post to her. She tried to say the same idiotic thing that I contradicted myself when if you only new that the blood and brain are two different things you wouldn’t have made that statement. Also, it seems that you only talk about half life in relation to the mercury in the blood which means nothing. I talk about half life in relation to the mercury in the brain which means everything. Your comment “Flu shots are not compulsory; children only receive them if the parents request it”, this is the most hilarious statement I have ever heard. Good one, maybe in your fantasy land this is true. Everyone knows they push they flu shots so hard, they almost beg you to get them. Enough said on that one. I’m not sure why you gave me a lesson on flu shots even though I already know all about them and who makes them. Not sure your point here, but I can assure you 94% of them contain the full 25 mcg. I don’t care about what you googled really quickly, I have the exact stat. The percentage for the swine flu is even worse. I’m not going to respond to your comment that it was acceptable to inject pregnant women with a 25 mcg mercury flu shot, you know where I stand on that. As far as you being a Rho-gam mom, yes this is a definite category. Let me ask you a question and I would really like an honest response…are any of your children autistic? Specifically the ones you received a shot with? I have interviewed hundreds of women similar to you and I assure you Rho-gam and autism is no coincidence. I’m tired of talking about the guideline for mercury exposure with you. I completely understand how it works, (.1 mcg/kg body weight per day). What is your point, I don’t care how you look at it in regards to two different forms of mercury, or if you eat it or inject it, regardless this guideline is the only one used for any form and you are not supposed to get an entire lifetime of mercury exposure per this guideline in one day are you? Answer this question and you will understand my point. It is about being spread out across time. If I weigh only 1 kg and live for 10,000 days, it is not acceptable to get all of the exposures to mercury that would have been just on the guideline limit each of these 10,000 days in just one single day would it? This would mean I would receive a shot of 1000 mcg (.1mcg/day x 10,000 days) in one day. Actually if I received this on the my 10,000th day it would make perfect sense why I didn’t go on to live another. Do you understand this concept? Moving on, do some research on aluminum and mercury. The toxic combination is not a 1 + 1 = 2. It is much much worse. This is also completely unstudied by your side which is gross negligence since they are both used together in certain vaccines. I’m not sure how your lesson on what thimerosal is addressed my comment that it as a solution is more toxic than ethyl mercury by itself. I have seen experiments done in laboratory on brain neurons that shows this. This is something your side also has no clue about and is also complete gross negligence, not to mention thimerosal has never gone through clinical trials. Would you like to speak about the independent study Eli Lilly did on terminally ill meningitis patients who all died a couple weeks later to prove thimerosal is safe to use in our mandatory vaccine program? I would love to hear your thoughts on that one. I love how you use the term “safely locked away” to refer to amalgams. Ha, you are a dentist you freakin clownshow. I can’t believe you fall into this trap of the ADA and actually believe this. Have you every looked at an amalgam with UV and infrared paper and light and put a mercury vapor analyzer over the top. Try it sometime and gently brush the filling as if you were brushing your teeth and watch the mercury register on the analyzer. Also, you will be able to see the vapors similar to smoke off a cigarette by coincidence I’m sure. You have never done anything like this, that is why you simply do not understand. You are only right about one thing, and that is if you drill them out you are in deep shit. I can’t believe you actually said something that makes sense. And just to add one thing to prove you don’t know much, the mercury in amalagams is elemental mercury, do you research. But then again it does become inorganic once it’s in the body over time just as ehtyl and methyl do. I’m seriously disturbed that you think it is ok for a pregnant mother to breath mercury vapors all day for nine months. Wow, you really are confused. I am starting to have some fun now. I love being challenged and then anhialating you with the truth. You are way to easy Calli. You are the type of people I am looking for on here though. The ones that think you are smarter than you actually are by using big tough words. Notice how I keep mine very simple and roll you right over anyhow. Bye Bye.

  199. #200 Orac
    March 18, 2010

    Killfiled STY and all variations. Calli, I enjoyed your takedown @195, but I am definitely not sorry I didn’t read the rant and I have NO intentions of unkilling the troll. Orac rarely blocks people from posting, but I’ve had my full of him/her/it.

    I must admit, I’m becoming seriously tempted to make an exception in STY’s case, as I’ve had my fill of him/her/it, too. Between benmyson and STY, the comment threads are getting ridiculous. This is not Pharyngula.

  200. #201 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    Well, this has been fun, I have to go because I’m flying out shortly to interview a PhD in Toxicology this weekend…what are you guys upto beside google searching?

  201. #202 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    ORAC I have to give you some credit…I would have banned me a long time ago. However, I do speak the truth, I just need to present it a little friendlier. Don’t worry though I’m leaving for the weekend so I will be silenced that way.

  202. #203 Ian
    March 18, 2010

    Connect 4 tournament. Sure I can’t interest you in a quick game?

    Don’t ban STY Orac, he’s harmless and amusing. Like a dog who thinks it’s people.

  203. #204 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    Sometimes Paul Offit will comment here. I wonder if he remembers some strange guy interviewing him. Since he has had some very real death threats, I assume he is very careful when he meets people he does not know. This is why he does not do book tours.

  204. #205 jen
    March 18, 2010

    nice try, Chris. Smarter Than You just smoked you guys and now you try and make him out to be a danger to Paul Offit. Pathetic.
    I do think that Orac shows alot of class for not barring comments. Freedom of speech is alive and well.

  205. #206 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    I did not imply that the person who posts long vitriolic and insulting posts would be a danger to anyone, just that I doubted that someone would agree to meet with him.

  206. #207 Scientizzle
    March 18, 2010

    Something has been in the making since 2004 that is going to make many dead people roll over in their graves. It will be completed by about October/November 2010, but it may be a little bit after that when you all become very familiar with it. But once you do, you will all finally see where you went wrong, because you most certainly have, and even the worst of the worst of them, such as Paul Offit, will even finally acknowledge just how wrong he was once and for all. Don’t get me wrong here though, I’m not saying vaccines are the culprit. And why do I withhold this from the rest of society? Because until it is complete people such as yourselves could not possibly understand it.

    Is the Time Cube guy investigating thimerosal now?

    Allow me to register my excitement for some random internet troll’s mysterious and nigh-incomprehensible research, yet to be completed, that may take even longer to release in whatever undoubtedly-legitimate publication, that will set the world straight once and for all!

    I’m actually sitting on the edge of my seat as I type this!

  207. #208 Science Mom
    March 18, 2010

    I don’t know Scientizzle, STY said:

    …and no it’s not the monkey study, and no it’s not some paper that claims mercury causes autism…in fact it’s not a study or experiment or literature at all.

    So, I don’t know, perhaps s/he will present this in the form of a performance art piece?

  208. #209 jen
    March 18, 2010

    Chris, you most certainly did imply that Smarter Than You could be dangerous. If you meant you doubted that someone like Paul Offit would speak with him you would have used alot different wording. Besides being vitriolic and insulting he actually had alot of good points to make about thimerosal.

  209. #210 Jake Crosby
    March 18, 2010

    I know I’ve wasted my time on here already, and won’t go into detail because no amount of science will convince any of you, nor has it, but I just want to take apart this point:

    “Any scientific consensus is a conspiracy, “repression,” and/or “censorship.” The reason is simple. It’s because science tells denialists that they are wrong and to them that’s censorship.”

    You are wrong, for there to be a consensus, government, industry and consumer all have to concur. In this case, only two of those parties, government and industry, are with you, consumer is not. Even basic charities like Autism Speaks do not agree with your views. Even people who’ve served in high leadership positions in public health don’t agree with you, and acknowledge that government has been outright dismissive of this issue no matter what the results would be, and that has been evident already.

    The bottom line: there is no scientific consensus, that government and industry which are practically interchangeable agree does not make it so, much less that their stance is true, and all the tobacco science they crank out won’t change that.

  210. #211 Science Mom
    March 18, 2010

    In this case, only two of those parties, government and industry, are with you, consumer is not. Even basic charities like Autism Speaks do not agree with your views. Even people who’ve served in high leadership positions in public health don’t agree with you,…

    No Jake, make that just Katie Wright and Bernadine Healy (avid supporter of tobacco science). And that agreement means nothing for it’s based upon opinion, not facts. Do they have any evidence to support their opinions Jake? Do you?

  211. #212 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    jen:

    Besides being vitriolic and insulting he actually had alot of good points to make about thimerosal.

    Except, as was pointed out: they were all wrong. You have been asked direct questions about some of these facts, but have failed to produce any answers, and no real evidence.

    He claimed that thimerosal was still in pediatric vaccines after 2001, and it was pointed out that the influenza vaccine is available without thimerosal.

    Now, here is a question that I have asked around, and perhaps even to you. I know I have not been given an answer, and I don’t think anyone has even tried to answer it. In 2001 Sallie Bernard put in a request for DTaP vaccines that still contained thimerosal for a study. That was for Burbacher’s primate study, and since he had to add thimerosal to the vaccine I can assume they never found any. Here is the post (straight cut and paste):

    * Subject: Thimerosal DTaP Needed
    * From: Sally Bernard
    * Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:01:50 -0400
    * Yahoo! Message Number: 27456
    * Onibasu Link: http://onibasu.com/archives/am/27456.html

    Hi all:

    A group of university-based researchers needs several vials of the older
    DTaP vaccine formulations which contained thimerosal for a legitimate
    research study. If anyone knows an MD who might have some of these
    vaccines or knows where to get them, please email me privately.

    Thank you.

    Sallie Bernard
    Executive Director
    Safe Minds

    …………………………..

    So if thimerosal was still a problem in pediatric vaccines in 2001, why was Sallie Bernard asking for help locating the stuff?

    By the way, even if you think that I claimed STY is dangerous when I was pointing out that someone who gets death threats would be cautious… I don’t care. Personally I believe that STY is actually delusional and all of his “interviews” were only with the voices in his own head.

  212. #213 jen
    March 18, 2010

    Chris, his points were not all proven wrong. I will let his last post stand. (#199). I have no idea about Sallie Bernard’s vaccine request.

  213. #214 young skeptic
    March 18, 2010

    “I have no idea about Sallie Bernard’s vaccine request.”

    Amazing how you refuse to comment on something you have a small knowledge base on when it disagrees with your world view but have no problem lending credence to the most ridiculous statements when they coincide with it.

  214. #215 The Gregarious Misanthrope
    March 18, 2010

    @jen

    You are wrong about Chris. He called STY “strange” [understatement]. He said Offitt receives death threats and assumes he is careful whom he meets. You have assumed Reeses Cups even though the peanut butter and chocolate remained separate.

    D+

  215. #216 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    Typical evidence free response. His post #199 said:

    however everyone also knows it was not recalled and backstock lasted until at least 2002 but nobody really knows the exact date. I have personally seen many mercury loaded childhood vaccines with an expiration date of 2004, hence the 2004.

    And yet, there is real evidence that Sallie Bernard, the executive director of SafeMinds, could not find vaccines with thimerosal in 2001!

    What part of that do you not understand?

  216. #217 Broken Link
    March 18, 2010

    I’m kind of wondering if SMY is here for a purpose. He keeps all us science types (you know, the ones who can actually mount a coherent argument with facts and peer reviewed literature on their side) occupied while we ignore the mainstream media, where all SMY’s buddies are commenting like crazy.

    I guess I’m making a long-winded argument that SMY is a troll. We should be out there making the science-based points with the public. The people who actually count, unlike SMY, with xis/xer borderline psychotic rants.

  217. #218 Marc
    March 18, 2010

    I hope Smarter Than You and his many troll impostors come back and continue their civil war. It’s also funny how each one was accusing the other of using false evidence and then “disproving” it with more false evidence. They were also Bushly illiterate and paragraphically challenged. I will miss these trolls if they’re gone for good.

    http://bookreviewsbybobbie.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/troll.jpg

  218. #219 Fuzzzone
    March 18, 2010

    Fear not, Marc. This was not the first appearance of Smarter Than You, and I suspect it will not be the last.

  219. #220 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    I will actually admit, Smarter Than You made some good points that we couldn’t challenge. I’m not sure he is really as full of it as I first thought he/she/it was.

  220. #221 Ian
    March 18, 2010

    Yeah he/she/it really blew Calli away with 199

  221. #222 Pablo
    March 18, 2010

    (real Pablo here)

    Orac – impersonating other posters is certainly a ban-able offense, yes?

  222. #223 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    Yeah, sure… the verbal diarrhea of #199 was classic troll phenotype. No breaks, going from topic to topic and the argument by blatant assertion.

    So is impersonating other people.

  223. #224 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    Though to be fair, it could be another “Chris.” For the record I use “s/he/it”, which is a holdover from Usenet days.

  224. #225 Orac
    March 18, 2010

    Orac – impersonating other posters is certainly a ban-able offense, yes?

    Yes, entirely at my discretion. So, STY, cut it out or you’re out of here. And before you start whining that I’m being unfair, the others who “impersonated” you made it very obvious that it wasn’t you and that they were making fun of you.

  225. #226 Katharine
    March 18, 2010

    I almost have to ask three things:

    1) What does DumberThanPrettyMuchEverybodyElse do for a living,
    2) Does he/she have children with autism, and
    3) Why isn’t he/she taking his/her meds?

  226. #227 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    You mean that STY is not “flying out shortly to interview a PhD in Toxicology this weekend.” ?

  227. #228 Katharine
    March 18, 2010

    I challenge Dumbarse to explain why the vast majority of the vaccinated – which is a sizeable majority in this country, above 90% (but unfortunately dropping) suffer no sequelae from vaccination.

  228. #229 SisterMaryLoquacious
    March 18, 2010

    my previous comment from last night seems to have become lost in the shuffle, and buried beneath all of STY’s rants….

    could someone please enlighten me: what is a “poe?”

  229. #230 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    A Poe usually applies to religion, but it fits with many anti-vax, 9/11 conspiracy theorists, homeopaths and others because their devotion is close to fundamentalism. But here is the definition at Rationalwiki:

    Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won’t mistake for the real thing.

  230. #231 SisterMaryLoquacious
    March 18, 2010

    thanks chris!

    sooooooo true.

  231. #232 NJ
    March 18, 2010

    Sister Mary, from Wikipedia:

    Poe’s law (religious fundamentalism) — “Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humour, it is impossible to create a parody of fundamentalism that someone won’t mistake for the real thing.” named after Nathan Poe who formulated it on christianforums.com in 2005. Although it originally referred to creationism, the scope later widened to religious fundamentalism.

    The concept was been completely generalized now, so that any poster who is around the bend mistaken on any topic is considered as possibly being a parodist, causing someone to ask “Poe?”

  232. #233 SisterMaryLoquacious
    March 18, 2010

    thanks, NJ. obviously i’m not up to snuff on recent internet lingo- i spent most of the last six years or so without the internet, in places where most people would have chopped off an appendage to have the chance to vaccinate their children against polio, measles, mumps, typhoid, etc…

    shit, it’s a wonder i haven’t dropped DEAD, what with all the vaccinations i’ve had in the last few years… ;)

  233. #234 Otto
    March 18, 2010

    “You mean that STY is not ‘flying out shortly to interview a PhD in Toxicology this weekend.’ ?”

    I’ve heard that Plateau Sigma has been working on setting up connecting service.

  234. #235 Chris
    March 19, 2010

    Otto, I had to look it up. ;-)

  235. #236 jccjd
    March 19, 2010

    STY = Tom Cruise? More couch-jumping come November?

  236. #237 a-non
    March 19, 2010

    This is not Pharyngula.

    Oh, snap.

    Serious point #1 – while I understand the HHS rationale for issuing the statment regarding anti-vaccine cranks and the media, all it does if feed the conspiracy. Now the media can report on the attempts of the government to “silence” the disease promoters. Remeber the old adage about how any publicity is good publicity.

    Serious point #2 – STY is all sorts of crazy.

  237. #238 historygeek
    March 19, 2010

    i think in october the discover institute and AOA are going to join forces against the evil that is reality i think i read that somewhare in the wall of text. personally i can’t wait that is a lot of delusion. should be intresting. as to be repressed talk to an ethopain about what happens when u don’t go along with the goverment line they arrest torture u for a few months put u before the kangroo court and a few months later shoot u. that is goverment censor ship just to review terms

  238. #239 Kristen
    March 19, 2010

    @195
    Callie
    Thank you for your smack down of STY. I was going to ask someone to list the reasons he was so wrong. I am pretty new to all of this and, unfortunately I totally know how parents are taken in with these types of arguments. His use of profanity is probably very appealing to confused and angry parents. It is easy to think ‘this guy is fighting the system for us’.

    To make it completely clear; I know he is full of it.

  239. #240 jen
    March 19, 2010

    Kristin: SMY smacked her right back. You sound like you’re trying to convince yourself.

  240. #241 a-non
    March 19, 2010

    Oh yeah, one additional comment:

    Jen, if by “Smarter Than You just smoked you guys” you mean “Smarter Than You is a flaming loon”, then I agree. And the fact that you think this individual is making good points illustrates the general unhingedness of anti-vaxers.

    I expect J.B. Handley or Jay Gordon to show up any minute now to concur with STY’s ranting.

  241. #242 Science Mom
    March 19, 2010

    Kristin: SMY smacked her right back. You sound like you’re trying to convince yourself.

    I actually think Kristen pegged you and your type, jen. You are more enamoured with the aggressiveness and sheer volume of ‘sciency’-sounding bits than you are with actual content, which was remarkably devoid of any accuracy. Go ahead and hitch your wagon to that though and have a great trip to the Woobicon (Orac™).

  242. #243 Chris
    March 19, 2010

    jen, STY claimed there was still pediatric vaccines with thimerosal up to at least 2004. Yet, Sallie Bernard, the executive director of SafeMinds, could not find any in 2001!

    Why? Is Sallie Bernard lying in her message on the Autism-Mercury message board?

  243. #244 a-non
    March 19, 2010

    jen,

    SMY’s smack back consisted of:

    1. Assertion that there were thimerosal-containing vaccines in use as late as 2004. Other than flu shots, this would be hard to believe, as Sallie Bernard in 2001 was having to scour around trying to find thim-containing vaccines for a study.

    2. Suggesting that intramuscular injection is the same as injecting into the bloodstream, when anyone with a modicum of scientific knowledge knows that isn’t true. There is gobs of research on this topic, yet none of it was references by SMY.

    3. A complete lack of understanding of influenza vaccine uptake, and conflating it with other childhood vaccines. Flu shots aren’t required for school entry or admittance, so the uptake is far, far lower.

    4. A full and utter misinterpretation of Burbacher and Pichichero’s mercury study, if that is even the research that’s being referred to in terms of comparing methyl-mercury and ethyl-mercury. That part was so convulted I couldn’t make heads or tails of it.

    5. A bunch of ranting crazy about amalgams.

    6. Assertion that the epi studies on thimerosal-containing vaccines are bogus, without any concrete evidence that they are other than conspiracy theories.

    And a lot of other stuff, but at some point, my head started to hurt so I stopped.

    If you truly think that the volume of words SMY is putting out is a sign of intelligence, then you further the point I made in my previous post. You, like SMY, just like J.B. and Paul King and Jay Gordon and AoA and Lyn Redwood and all the rest, are subscribing to a completely loony theory with virtually no scientific evidence to back you up.

  244. #245 Ian
    March 19, 2010

    @ a-non #244: I can’t believe I’m about to do this…

    1 – just because Sallie Bernard is incompetent, that doesn’t mean the backlogs aren’t at least partially fact-based. However, even if the backlog issue was true, there would be no need TODAY to restrict vaccines, and there would have been a corresponding decrease as the surplus vaccines were used up. That is, if thimerosal had been shown conclusively to cause any side-effects, which it hasn’t.

    2 – he corrected himself and retracted that intravenous/intramuscular statement. I know it was hard to find the crouton of truth in the word salad, but it was there. Let’s not jump on the poor bastard for making a mistake that he later owned up to.

    3 – his argument was that while not compulsory, there is strong social pressure to get flu vaccines which makes them tantamount to compulsory. I don’t disagree with that – in fact normative pressure reinforces a LOT of health behaviour (exercising, eating properly, hygiene). However, there are thimerosal-free flu vaccines available, and there was a lot of media about that fact. Again, that’s only relevant if thimerosal is dangerous… which it isn’t.

    The rest of your criticisms are fair. His “smack-down” really consisted of insisting that his own personal interviews and experiments were superior to those of dozens of actual scientists worldwide, working independently and finding converging results. With zero evidence to support his claims, that’s hardly a smoking gun.

    Oh, and I see someone is posting under my name (#221). Neat, I am pleased to be visible enough to deserve impersonation. In the future, please be considerate enough to include a link to my blog (to make your counterfeit more believable, of course).

  245. #246 historygeek
    March 19, 2010

    i come at this from the art historain background and STY convinced me of 3 things he/she/it has an ego bigger then god, makes excelent use of profainties adn has a wee bit of an anger problem. callie kicked his ass nine way to sundays

    This is what i came way with STY talked to people. big deal including paul offit and that in october paul will magically reverse his position as evedance of this sea change STY offered nothing more the a profainting laced wall of texed on how smart he is and how dumb everyone else sprinkeled with “oh the childern” give me a break only true beleivers fall for that.

  246. #247 Calli Arcale
    March 19, 2010

    Ah, finally have some time on the Internet again…. And I see Smarter Than You replied! I do love me a good fisking. Alas, I am short of time, as I have a longer drive than usual to collect my children today. But I’ll give it a go anyway. Since my boldface on the last post didn’t show very well, I’ll switch to italics now to indicate STY’s content.

    Smarter Than You @ 199:
    1) No correction needed…it is common knowledge the AAP and others recommended phasing thimerosal out in 1999, however everyone also knows it was not recalled and backstock lasted until at least 2002 but nobody really knows the exact date.

    As I indicated and as you apparently agree, it is understood that backstock lasted until 2002. I am not certain how you conclude from this that it absolutely must, in the absence of data, be assumed to have lasted two years longer than that.

    I have personally seen many mercury loaded childhood vaccines with an expiration date of 2004, hence the 2004.

    Ah, that’s why. You apparently think that if something expires in 2004, it cannot be used until 2004. That’s a rather strange line of reasoning, I must say. I have a bottle of water that expires in 2012. Do you think I won’t drink it before then?

    “Mercury loaded” is, of course, a subjective term. The amount is very small.

    Again such a weak response grasping at straws.

    Well, you would know.

    However I will admit I, out of typing and thinking extremely fast used the words “directly into the bloodstream” which were misleading however the end result is the same, it ends up in the bloodstream. I should have said directly into the body without the somewhat protective mechanisms associated with the digestive system.

    I am glad you are willing to admit you misspoke; it shows rare maturity on your part. However, you follow it up with the statement that the bloodstream is equivalent to the rest of the body, a peculiar claim given that a) you earlier complained when I pointed out that the vaccine is not given intravenously (which suggests you know there’s a difference) and b) you also claim that mercury is somehow sequestered in the brain in a manner not reflected by blood mercury levels. Your assertions are contradictory; I hope you can see that.

    Also, for you to think that all the mercury has been removed and the rates are still going up is absurd. They have not removed all of the mercury, they have just shifted it all around. I would rather give a 10 or 12 pound baby a mercury loaded shot than give a pregnant women with a .5 pound developing fetus a shot, or better yet two shots with 25 mcg in it.

    Even assuming that every last bit of thimerosal in a flu shot taken from a multi-dose vial goes directly to the fetus (rather that being distributed around the woman’s body, which again would contradict your assertion that the bloodstream and the muscles are interchangeable with respect to dosing and toxicity), that would leave the baby with the equivalent of a single (perhaps two, if was recently) vaccines containing Thimerosal. You seriously think that two adult flu vaccines are equivalent, in terms of mercury, to the entire childhood vaccine schedule?

    No, they are not merely “shifting it around”. The total amount, even if you assume all of the thimerosal from maternal flu vaccines enters the child, is considerably less than it used to be.

    Are you kidding me, you actually think the rate will reduce when we are now giving 50 mcg of mercury to all pregnant women in the regular flu shot and swine flu shot? You are crazy!

    Two points bear mention: 1) not all pregnant women will receive either shot, let alone both, and 2) even if they do, it’s still way less thimerosal. You should expect to see *some* effect on the autism rate. We haven’t. You have made no attempt to explain that; instead, you’d rather spout vulgarities.

    And that is about the only thing I do hear from you people because you know your epidemiology studies are so flawed you can’t reference them anymore. You all know this and that is why you grab onto the idiotic claim that mercury has been removed and the rates keep going up. Do you know that the latest CDC rate of 1 in 110 was based on 8 year olds in 2006. This means these children were born in 1998, and received the fully loaded vaccines, and also in 2004 started getting the flu shots.

    You act as if this is the only data in the entire world that we have to go on. It’s not. You can look at rates of autism in unvaccinated populations (yes, they do exist, and yes, they do have autism), you can look at rates in older autistics, you can look at other countries including ones which removed thimerosal much earlier, and the data all agrees — there is no relationship between the removal of thimerosal and the rate of autism. Look at Norway. Look at the recent study of adults in the UK, which found the rate of autism (diagnosed and otherwise) was very close to the rate in children. Look at the declining rate of mental retardation; it mirrors the increase in autism. Why is that, do you suppose?

    Bullshit, read the study and this is still during a very devastating period where they were getting floored after they were born.

    There are many studies. Out of curiosity, which one are you referring to?

    And to clarify a very important fact, Doctors push these flu shots like they are giving out candy. They don’t wait for you to ask for one, that is hilarious.

    That’s an odd thing to say, given that in the first few months of flu season, it is rationed (and was rationed more heavily for 2009 H1N1 due to the lower volume of product available at the time). I’m an asthmatic, and my doctor didn’t recommend it, for me or my children, because they didn’t have enough to give out. They would only give it to people who asked for it.

    Now, there were flu clinics, and they advertised their existence. This is quite sensible; how will people know that they can come to you for a vaccine unless they have heard of you? It’s not the same thing as giving them out like candy. Perhaps your doctor is different, and has some “in” with the vaccine manufacturers allowing him/her to stock a lot more than anybody else. I wish I had your doctor.

    I had pregnant friends this year that were made to feel guilty they didn’t get one, even though the doctors didn’t even have a thimerosal free version.

    Given how many pregnant women died of H1N1 influenza this year, doctors should have been recommending it. But perhaps you think two dead bodies (mother and fetus) is better than autism?

    What research are you referring to with the half life of ethyl being 2 weeks vs. methyl 50 days?

    You also said it had a half life of 2 weeks (well, more accurately, it’s 18 days in adults and 3.7 in infants), so why are you objecting? I know you claim that somehow ethyl mercury deposits more inorganic mercury than methyl mercury, but that doesn’t makes sense. Ethyl mercury is excreted much faster than methyl mercury, which gives it far less opportunity to break down into inorganic mercury. What about this complicated to you?

    You can preach to me all day about your half life shit, but what it ultimately comes down to is how much mercury is in the brain after exposure.

    We agree on that. However, you prefer to choose figures which support your hysteria, rather than figures which are actually accurate. That’s your prerogative, but it’s not going to help you persuade anyone. Your line of argument is most suitable for self-justification, not persuasion.

    And I see you are just as dumb as Science Mom and you don’t understand the difference between “blood” and “brain”.

    And suddenly you realize that the body and the blood are not equivalent when it comes to dosing! I agree; the brain and blood are not the same (though note that both forms of organic mercury cross the blood-brain barrier easily). I’m glad you realize this. Now, could you please explain why you think muscle and blood *are* the same?

    Read my post to her.

    That’s hardly necessary.

    Your comment “Flu shots are not compulsory; children only receive them if the parents request it”, this is the most hilarious statement I have ever heard. Good one, maybe in your fantasy land this is true. Everyone knows they push they flu shots so hard, they almost beg you to get them.

    You seem to have difficulty grasping the difference between a recommendation and a requirement. I sincerely hope you do not work in engineering. The only vaccines which are compulsory are those which are on your state’s list for school admission. Influenza vaccines are not on the list, and never have been. And, barring some revolutionary advance in influenza vaccines (such as the invention of a truly generic influenza vaccine), likely won’t be.

    I’m not sure why you gave me a lesson on flu shots even though I already know all about them and who makes them. Not sure your point here, but I can assure you 94% of them contain the full 25 mcg.

    Really? If you knew all that already, why do you continue to assert that 94% of flu vaccines contain 25 mcg of thimerosal? What I posted contradicts you.

    The percentage for the swine flu is even worse.

    The swine flu vaccines contain precisely the same inactive ingredients as the regular ones; the only difference is the antigen. You do not know what you claim to know. That is obvious.

    As far as you being a Rho-gam mom, yes this is a definite category. Let me ask you a question and I would really like an honest response…are any of your children autistic? Specifically the ones you received a shot with? I have interviewed hundreds of women similar to you and I assure you Rho-gam and autism is no coincidence.

    I asked if it was an organization, not a category, since you capitalized it. But no matter.

    I am Rh-. I received RhoGAM with both of my children. One is diagnosed PDD-NOS (autism spectrum), and the other is “neurotypical”, as some put it. So from my sample of two, you can’t really draw a conclusion, (Not that it will stop you; you are clearly an expert at drawing conclusions from inadequate data.)

    I have no reason to doubt your claim that you have interviewed hundreds of women, but let me ask you something else — do you know how many RhoGAM (and equivalent) shots are given each year? Do you know how many Rh- mothers there are? Does hundreds really exceed the general population rate of autism, or are you merely seeing confirmation bias? Did you try interviewing Rh- mothers whose children are *not* autistic? I doubt that very much — your modus operandi is clearly to form a conclusion and then find evidence to support it. The opposite of science, in other words.

    And while we’re on the subject of the rhesus factor, how many Rh- mothers have you interviewed who did not receive the shot? How many dead babies have you found out about? Do you even know what Rh disease of the fetus is?

    What is your point, I don’t care how you look at it in regards to two different forms of mercury, or if you eat it or inject it, regardless this guideline is the only one used for any form and you are not supposed to get an entire lifetime of mercury exposure per this guideline in one day are you?

    Yes, it’s obvious you don’t care. You have acknowledged that blood and brain are not the same; you have acknowledged that the children are not eating the vaccine; you have acknowledged that it is ethyl mercury and not methyl mercury; you have acknowledged that ethyl mercury is cleared from the blood much faster than methyl mercury — and you still cannot understand why it may be unwise to take the EPA guidelines as an absolute predictor of autism risk?

    Also, you seem to have gone from four months worth of mercury to a lifetime of mercury exposure rather easily. That is, of course, entirely consistent with your casual approach to facts.

    Of course, there’s another point I haven’t raised before. Have you ever read about mercury poisoning? Actually, real mercury poisoning? It doesn’t result in autism. Why do you think minute amounts of ethyl mercury would cause autism, when large amounts (which do cause harm) do not cause autism?

    Moving on, do some research on aluminum and mercury. The toxic combination is not a 1 + 1 = 2. It is much much worse. This is also completely unstudied by your side which is gross negligence since they are both used together in certain vaccines.

    If it’s unstudied, what makes you think there’s an affect? Because you want there to be one, so you can have something to be righteously indignant about?

    Aluminum adjuvants (which are not used in influenza vaccines, by the way, but I’m sure you would know that if you actually had done the research you claim) are studied, and they are studied in conjunction with everything else in the vaccine. Why wouldn’t they be? What other way could a vaccine possibly be studied than by administering the actual vaccine and observing the effects?

    I’m not sure how your lesson on what thimerosal is addressed my comment that it as a solution is more toxic than ethyl mercury by itself. I have seen experiments done in laboratory on brain neurons that shows this.

    Okay, if you can’t understand the Nutrasweet/aspartame analogy, I can understand why you remain confused. (Hint: they’re the same thing.)

    I love how you use the term “safely locked away” to refer to amalgams. Ha, you are a dentist you freakin clownshow.

    Software engineer, actually. But I was working on a chemistry degree before switching majors. That’s why I know you’re full of it. I know about these things. You don’t.

    Have you every looked at an amalgam with UV and infrared paper and light and put a mercury vapor analyzer over the top. Try it sometime and gently brush the filling as if you were brushing your teeth and watch the mercury register on the analyzer. Also, you will be able to see the vapors similar to smoke off a cigarette by coincidence I’m sure.

    Ah, the classic scam. You’ve fallen for the trap laid by unscrupulous dentists who make extra money by scaring patients into having their fillings replaced. I’ve heard of those tests. They don’t reveal what you think they do.

    And just to add one thing to prove you don’t know much, the mercury in amalagams is elemental mercury, do you research. But then again it does become inorganic once it’s in the body over time just as ehtyl and methyl do.

    Well of course elemental mercury will become inorganic mercury; it’s fairly reactive. Actually, amalgam fillings contain both elemental mercury and a mercury alloy.

    The ones that think you are smarter than you actually are by using big tough words. Notice how I keep mine very simple and roll you right over anyhow. Bye Bye.

    Actually, this is how I talk normally. And I don’t think I used very many really big words. It’s definitely good that you stick to simple words, though. Given your difficulty in spelling and understanding and applying them correctly, this is probably wise on your part.

  247. #248 Dangerous Bacon
    March 19, 2010

    “The ones that think you are smarter than you actually are by using big tough words.”

    Oooh, isn’t that the truth? They’re just such meanies when they show off like that and make your head hurt trying to keep up with them!

    It’s like I always say, if you can’t make yourself plainly understood by the average five-year-old, you don’t have anything worthwhile to say. And that goes for what you hoity-toity types call the “scientific consensus”, too. If we don’t agree with your nasty science, it isn’t really science, so there.

  248. #249 Calli Arcale
    March 19, 2010

    Actually, Dangerous Bacon, while I admit I enjoyed fiskin STY’s post, it is true that if you can make yourself understood at a lower level without compromising meaning, that’s best. Were I actually attempting to educate rather than debate, I would use less big words. (Though I have to think consciously to do that; in addition to my computer science degree, I hold an English major, and so I’m kinda used to big words.)

    One need only look to my conversation with bensmyson over in the thread about Robert F Kennedy. I can respect bensmyson, even though I don’t agree with them. (Yes, for those who don’t know, it’s two people — Ben’s parents.) I have serious criticisms of their viewpoint — but not of their clear and abiding love for Ben. Common ground is precious, and I won’t give it up easily.

    STY, on the other hand, I think will never have common ground with me, or probably many other people here. He/she seems too invested in righteous indignation to actually discuss things.

  249. #250 The Gregarious Misanthrope
    March 19, 2010

    Calli,

    One of things STY brought up about the difference between ethyl- and methyl-mercury was that ethyl- was somehow converted to a form that stays in the brain much more quickly and that this made ethyl- more dangerous despite its half-life being much shorter.

    I don’t recall you addressing that specifically and I don’t much about it myself. What are your thoughts on this?

    I enjoyed reading your rebuttals.

  250. #251 Me
    March 20, 2010

    @Calli…I shouldn’t respond right now because I have to get up really early for an interview, however your responses to my last response were completely absurd and very confusing because you didn’t talk much sense and you try to spin things in ways that make me think you don’t understand my points. Maybe it’s because your simple mind really needs paragraphs to understand me so I will do that just for you:

    First off, you and I will never agree on the duration of backstock used with mercury loaded vaccines. You have no idea where you even get the 2002 figure, in fact to put an end to this subject nobody can confirm the exact date so let’s stop talking about it. It really doesn’t matter if it is 2002 or 2004 because you wouldn’t have seen a reduction in rates anyhow because of the flu shot as I have mentioned before. At least you aren’t as big of an idiot as Chris claiming his email he has from Sallie Bernard proves anything. Chris come on dude, are you serious? That was just her initial email to obtain the vaccines…she had them within 24 hours.

    Calli for you to say the amount of mercury doesn’t even compare to the mercury the children used to get is idiotic. Do you know the difference between a 14 pound baby and a .2 pound developing fetus. The effects of mercury on the latter are so devastating in the MOST critical time in the development. ANY amount of mercury exposure at this absolutely critical time in a human life will have catastrophic results. This simply can’t be argued and can’t be compared in any way to getting shots after the child is born because it’s in a completely different league of damage.

    Given you are a little slow, I will try to understand that you completely did not interpret my comments on the “directly into the bloodstream” explanation correctly. I corrected myself and said it is injected “into the body”, and I’m sorry to tell you this but whether you want to acknowledge this or not when it is injected intramuscularly it doesn’t simply sit in the muscle and hangout forever like you want to claim. Do you think the muscle is like a balloon that doesn’t release anything into the bloodstream or the cardiovascular system? You are an idiot for making this statement. Get off this one, we all know the mercury ends up in the blood so stop even talking about it moron. And one last time for you because you don’t listen, I don’t give a fuck about the mercury in the blood, it means nothing! You are confusing mercury leaving the blood with mercury actually leaving the body. It does leave the blood readily but it is going into the brain, not leaving the body! Go ahead and think the mercury in the blood is a good indication of what is in the brain, you couldn’t be more wrong. Also, just to clarify a later point of yours, i will try to speak English on this one again for you, Ethyl Mercury enters the brain and quickly converts to the inorganic form which then can’t exit the brain. This right here makes your statement of the blood levels reflecting what is going on in the brain useless. Blood levels clear relatively fast because mercury has a high affinity for fatty tissue (THE BRAIN) and it locks in and doesn’t go back to the blood. Methyl converts much slower so it can be washed in and out of the brain and into the blood and excreted from the body before it converts and locks in. Hence, the end result is more inorganic mercury in the brain from Ethyl exposures than Methyl exposures. THIS IS THE KEY YOU DUMBASS!!!! How many times do I need to tell you this. Do I need to send you Burbacher’s study that proves this? You can’t argue this one so stop trying to spin it and sound like you didn’t pay attention to what I said. This closes this argument, please acknowledge this.

    Again, I don’t care if flu shots are mandatory or not, pregnant women are getting them everywhere, TWO OF THEM. I see it everywhere and talk to everyone about it all the time. I live this shit and I see it everywhere, believe it, they are getting them because the doctors tell them they need to and unfortunately for them they are listening and severely damaging their children in the process. We can’t have a discussion on this one because we don’t have an exact stat of how many pregnant women actually get the shot, but I can assure you it is the majority, except for the women that know me. Regardless, the number of pregnant women getting flu shots now far exceeds the number when it was just the Rho-gam moms getting them, and trust me I know Rho-gam does not contain thimerosal anymore so don’t try to spin this shit.

    I will tell you one thing, I have lived Autism. I will also tell you another thing, it is worse than the worst nightmare you could ever imagine even having. It will introduce you to a world that you could never in a million years even imagine existed, and put you into a place that is a million times worse than hell. I will not respond to your comment whether it would be better to have autism or death from the swine flu itself.

    To touch on the rates, I’m not wasting my time on this one. Your big claim now is that Autism has always been 1 in 110 and there are 1 in 110 adults with Autism and it was just confused for a long time with MR. WOW, you just reached “beyond idiot, absolutely clueless” status. ARE YOU FUCKNG KIDDING ME!!! Show me the 1 in 110 adults with Autism? You will be lucky to find 1 in 5000! Are you one of those Nuerodiverse dipshits? They are the bottom of the barrel just abandoning the only hope of recovery for their children by having such rediculous beliefs that everyone is just a little neurologically diverse. I will laugh at that one all day!!! Everyone now acknowledges, even dumbfuck Insel, that Autism has an environmental component. If for one second you finally come to this conclusion, and the majority of people, even MIND, now understand this, the answer can and is only one fucking thing….MERCURY. If it’s not mercury, it will be the biggest coincidence this planet has ever seen, and whatever the culprit is would have to work identical to mercury in every single possible way.

    Rho-gam…Ok now we are getting somewhere! I knew the second you said you were a Mother and had chidren that you had a Autistic child because that would be the only reason we would be talking on here, especially once you said you were a Rho-gam Mom it all clicked. You either have autism or aspergers or you have a child with autism. In this case you have a child. This is absolutely no surprise to me at all. You not only received the Rho-gam shots, you received a flu shot when you were pregnant. I know it’s hard for some people to acknowledge this, but this was devastating to your unborn children, and don’t take it like I’m saying it’s your fault, because it absolutely isn’t. And yes you are right, the majority of Rho-gam moms I have talked to had children with Autism, and had received the shots. However, many of them had multiple children but the only child with Autism was the one that received the in-utero shot. I’ve seen this so many times I lost count. I have never seen the opposite. Not one time have I seen one of these Mothers with multiple children and the ones who received the shot were fine but the one who didn’t is Autistic. I’ve looked everywhere for this. In your case I’m guessing of your two children who received the shots, the one who is PDD-NOS is a boy? And the one who is typical is a girl? It doesn’t have to be this way but it is very common because testosterone plays a huge role in all of this. Please be honest with your answers, not that you owe it to me but it will help with our discussion. Also, which child did you receive the flu shot with, and again don’t just say what you know will be the best to make me look stupid. And yes, I do know a lot about this condition but its not important for this discussion.

    Again, yet another comment that confirms you know nothing about this…you clearly don’t understand that there is a huge difference between chronic and acute mercury toxicity. Acute toxicity is large exposures that target the kidneys, liver, etc. Chronic is what we are talking about here and your side does not have even the smallest clue about this. All traditional Western Medicine understands is Acute, and even Paul Offit talks about mercury toxicity from an acute standpoint which is a fatal fatal flaw. You simply can’t compare a one time massive exposure to mercury with slow cummulative exposures over a number of months and years. Chronic exposures target the brain, senses, central nervous system, endocrine system, oh wait…what doesn’t it target! It is absolutely devastating to those who are more susceptible and/or those that have a less ability to excrete due to low levels of sulphur based proteins such as glutathione, cysteine, and metallathione. Autistic children do not have the ability to excrete mercury. It builds and builds and eventually rolls them into the devastating world known incorrectly as Autism. It is simply mercury efflux disorder, or the inability to excrete mercury effectively.

    I can tell you every answer you have ever wanted to know in regards to the cause of Autism. Why there are 4 boys to every girl, why the entire epidemic started when it did, why the rates spiked exactly when they did, why some are born with it and others regress, why there are only 1 in 110 at this time that have it and not everyone, why the symptoms are exactly what they are, why there is a delay in onset of symptoms after the “final” exposure before they enter full blown Autism, why one child might have it but the brothers and sisters don’t, etc. etc. etc. Don’t start asking me these questions because I’m probably not going to keep responding on here because this is taking too much of my time and I can’t give all this away right now because it will all be coming out soon. I’m telling you at this point in time I have the answer to every question anyone could ask me, and you will all soon too, just be patient. Trust me having this information nearly kills me because I want more than anything on this world for this devastation to stop so not one more child has to have their life taken away.

    In regards to Aluminum and Mercury…this is an easy one, simply read the MSDS sheet directly from Merck and you will see thimerosal is not to be used with or combined with Aluminum. Yet another completely gross negligent act of the CDC. They completely disregard the EPA’s guideline for mercury exposure, and completely disregard any safety testing/clinical trials with thimerosal, and completely disregard that thimerosal and aluminum should never be used in combination. Oh wait, aluminum and thimerosal are used together in all sorts of childhood vaccines. How smart is the CDC exactly? The left hand doesn’t know what the right is doing. Besides this MSDS, ths is well known through a series of experiments but I’m not going to dig them up right now.

    Another simple response to you…if you think the thimerosal solution as a whole is the same as plain ethyl mercury I have ran out of bad names for you. Seriously? Please explain? Oh and by the way, by education I received my bachelors degree in, you guessed it, ENGINEERING. And if you took basic chemistry you should know so much more than you do.

    Listen very carefully, sometimes I don’t think you interpret the English language very well: Amalgams, when brushed lightly release vapors that you can see…do you understand that so far? When you put the mercury vapor analyzer up over the vapors it registers mercury vapors….HELLO…McFly?!?! Comprendo? This is 110% proof that amalgams are not stable like you and every dumb dentist claim. Vapors are released, they don’t have to be drilled out to be dangerous. This argument is closed.

    And lastly, I’m glad you understand amalgams are elemental mercury!!! You should have googled that one first like you do everything else.

    I have to say I was expecting much more of a challenging response from you. You are very good at trying to spin what I say or maybe you just aren’t comprehending it right because you are very confused in some of your responses. As a whole though, I am disappointed in the lack of challenge to this latest response. And just to clarify to everyone, many of the above posts are imposters and not me. Yes, I do swear a lot, however I am very intelligent in my thought processes and writing so if it is a bunch of rambline bullshit that makes no sense, it is more than likely an imposter.

    To others, Chris you are still writing dumbass shit man, quit embarrassing yourself thinking you made this huge discovery with your lame ass email from Sally Bernard. And to KathArine, I’m not even going to respond to your “challenge”, it’s more than hilarious and such a beginners question, although if you look really hard you will find the response in this post. Sorry for getting all of your panties in a bunch, however its time the truth is spoken.

    -Smarter Than You

  251. #252 Smarter Than You
    March 20, 2010

    ORAC, let my comment through…it’s important for your other readers to see my response to Calli and it’s probably one of the better debates you’ve had on your blog

  252. #253 Smarter Than You
    March 20, 2010

    @Calli…I shouldn’t respond right now because I have to get up really early for an interview, however your responses to my last response were completely absurd and very confusing because you didn’t talk much sense and you try to spin things in ways that make me think you don’t understand my points. Maybe it’s because your simple mind really needs paragraphs to understand me so I will do that just for you:

    First off, you and I will never agree on the duration of backstock used with mercury loaded vaccines. You have no idea where you even get the 2002 figure, in fact to put an end to this subject nobody can confirm the exact date so let’s stop talking about it. It really doesn’t matter if it is 2002 or 2004 because you wouldn’t have seen a reduction in rates anyhow because of the flu shot as I have mentioned before. At least you aren’t as big of an idiot as Chris claiming his email he has from Sallie Bernard proves anything. Chris come on dude, are you serious? That was just her initial email to obtain the vaccines…she had them within 24 hours.

    Calli for you to say the amount of mercury doesn’t even compare to the mercury the children used to get is idiotic. Do you know the difference between a 14 pound baby and a .2 pound developing fetus. The effects of mercury on the latter are so devastating in the MOST critical time in the development. ANY amount of mercury exposure at this absolutely critical time in a human life will have catastrophic results. This simply can’t be argued and can’t be compared in any way to getting shots after the child is born because it’s in a completely different league of damage.

    Given you are a little slow, I will try to understand that you completely did not interpret my comments on the “directly into the bloodstream” explanation correctly. I corrected myself and said it is injected “into the body”, and I’m sorry to tell you this but whether you want to acknowledge this or not when it is injected intramuscularly it doesn’t simply sit in the muscle and hangout forever like you want to claim. Do you think the muscle is like a balloon that doesn’t release anything into the bloodstream or the cardiovascular system? You are an idiot for making this statement. Get off this one, we all know the mercury ends up in the blood so stop even talking about it moron. And one last time for you because you don’t listen, I don’t give a fuck about the mercury in the blood, it means nothing! You are confusing mercury leaving the blood with mercury actually leaving the body. It does leave the blood readily but it is going into the brain, not leaving the body! Go ahead and think the mercury in the blood is a good indication of what is in the brain, you couldn’t be more wrong. Also, just to clarify a later point of yours, i will try to speak English on this one again for you, Ethyl Mercury enters the brain and quickly converts to the inorganic form which then can’t exit the brain. This right here makes your statement of the blood levels reflecting what is going on in the brain useless. Blood levels clear relatively fast because mercury has a high affinity for fatty tissue (THE BRAIN) and it locks in and doesn’t go back to the blood. Methyl converts much slower so it can be washed in and out of the brain and into the blood and excreted from the body before it converts and locks in. Hence, the end result is more inorganic mercury in the brain from Ethyl exposures than Methyl exposures. THIS IS THE KEY YOU DUMBASS!!!! How many times do I need to tell you this. Do I need to send you Burbacher’s study that proves this? You can’t argue this one so stop trying to spin it and sound like you didn’t pay attention to what I said. This closes this argument, please acknowledge this.

    Again, I don’t care if flu shots are mandatory or not, pregnant women are getting them everywhere, TWO OF THEM. I see it everywhere and talk to everyone about it all the time. I live this shit and I see it everywhere, believe it, they are getting them because the doctors tell them they need to and unfortunately for them they are listening and severely damaging their children in the process. We can’t have a discussion on this one because we don’t have an exact stat of how many pregnant women actually get the shot, but I can assure you it is the majority, except for the women that know me. Regardless, the number of pregnant women getting flu shots now far exceeds the number when it was just the Rho-gam moms getting them, and trust me I know Rho-gam does not contain thimerosal anymore so don’t try to spin this shit.

    I will tell you one thing, I have lived Autism. I will also tell you another thing, it is worse than the worst nightmare you could ever imagine even having. It will introduce you to a world that you could never in a million years even imagine existed, and put you into a place that is a million times worse than hell. I will not respond to your comment whether it would be better to have autism or death from the swine flu itself.

    To touch on the rates, I’m not wasting my time on this one. Your big claim now is that Autism has always been 1 in 110 and there are 1 in 110 adults with Autism and it was just confused for a long time with MR. WOW, you just reached “beyond idiot, absolutely clueless” status. ARE YOU FUCKNG KIDDING ME!!! Show me the 1 in 110 adults with Autism? You will be lucky to find 1 in 5000! Are you one of those Nuerodiverse dipshits? They are the bottom of the barrel just abandoning the only hope of recovery for their children by having such rediculous beliefs that everyone is just a little neurologically diverse. I will laugh at that one all day!!! Everyone now acknowledges, even dumbfuck Insel, that Autism has an environmental component. If for one second you finally come to this conclusion, and the majority of people, even MIND, now understand this, the answer can and is only one fucking thing….MERCURY. If it’s not mercury, it will be the biggest coincidence this planet has ever seen, and whatever the culprit is would have to work identical to mercury in every single possible way.

    Rho-gam…Ok now we are getting somewhere! I knew the second you said you were a Mother and had chidren that you had a Autistic child because that would be the only reason we would be talking on here, especially once you said you were a Rho-gam Mom it all clicked. You either have autism or aspergers or you have a child with autism. In this case you have a child. This is absolutely no surprise to me at all. You not only received the Rho-gam shots, you received a flu shot when you were pregnant. I know it’s hard for some people to acknowledge this, but this was devastating to your unborn children, and don’t take it like I’m saying it’s your fault, because it absolutely isn’t. And yes you are right, the majority of Rho-gam moms I have talked to had children with Autism, and had received the shots. However, many of them had multiple children but the only child with Autism was the one that received the in-utero shot. I’ve seen this so many times I lost count. I have never seen the opposite. Not one time have I seen one of these Mothers with multiple children and the ones who received the shot were fine but the one who didn’t is Autistic. I’ve looked everywhere for this. In your case I’m guessing of your two children who received the shots, the one who is PDD-NOS is a boy? And the one who is typical is a girl? It doesn’t have to be this way but it is very common because testosterone plays a huge role in all of this. Please be honest with your answers, not that you owe it to me but it will help with our discussion. Also, which child did you receive the flu shot with, and again don’t just say what you know will be the best to make me look stupid. And yes, I do know a lot about this condition but its not important for this discussion.

    Again, yet another comment that confirms you know nothing about this…you clearly don’t understand that there is a huge difference between chronic and acute mercury toxicity. Acute toxicity is large exposures that target the kidneys, liver, etc. Chronic is what we are talking about here and your side does not have even the smallest clue about this. All traditional Western Medicine understands is Acute, and even Paul Offit talks about mercury toxicity from an acute standpoint which is a fatal fatal flaw. You simply can’t compare a one time massive exposure to mercury with slow cummulative exposures over a number of months and years. Chronic exposures target the brain, senses, central nervous system, endocrine system, oh wait…what doesn’t it target! It is absolutely devastating to those who are more susceptible and/or those that have a less ability to excrete due to low levels of sulphur based proteins such as glutathione, cysteine, and metallathione. Autistic children do not have the ability to excrete mercury. It builds and builds and eventually rolls them into the devastating world known incorrectly as Autism. It is simply mercury efflux disorder, or the inability to excrete mercury effectively.

    I can tell you every answer you have ever wanted to know in regards to the cause of Autism. Why there are 4 boys to every girl, why the entire epidemic started when it did, why the rates spiked exactly when they did, why some are born with it and others regress, why there are only 1 in 110 at this time that have it and not everyone, why the symptoms are exactly what they are, why there is a delay in onset of symptoms after the “final” exposure before they enter full blown Autism, why one child might have it but the brothers and sisters don’t, etc. etc. etc. Don’t start asking me these questions because I’m probably not going to keep responding on here because this is taking too much of my time and I can’t give all this away right now because it will all be coming out soon. I’m telling you at this point in time I have the answer to every question anyone could ask me, and you will all soon too, just be patient. Trust me having this information nearly kills me because I want more than anything on this world for this devastation to stop so not one more child has to have their life taken away.

    In regards to Aluminum and Mercury…this is an easy one, simply read the MSDS sheet directly from Merck and you will see thimerosal is not to be used with or combined with Aluminum. Yet another completely gross negligent act of the CDC. They completely disregard the EPA’s guideline for mercury exposure, and completely disregard any safety testing/clinical trials with thimerosal, and completely disregard that thimerosal and aluminum should never be used in combination. Oh wait, aluminum and thimerosal are used together in all sorts of childhood vaccines. How smart is the CDC exactly? The left hand doesn’t know what the right is doing. Besides this MSDS, ths is well known through a series of experiments but I’m not going to dig them up right now.

    Another simple response to you…if you think the thimerosal solution as a whole is the same as plain ethyl mercury I have ran out of bad names for you. Seriously? Please explain? Oh and by the way, by education I received my bachelors degree in, you guessed it, ENGINEERING. And if you took basic chemistry you should know so much more than you do.

    Listen very carefully, sometimes I don’t think you interpret the English language very well: Amalgams, when brushed lightly release vapors that you can see…do you understand that so far? When you put the mercury vapor analyzer up over the vapors it registers mercury vapors….HELLO…McFly?!?! Comprendo? This is 110% proof that amalgams are not stable like you and every dumb dentist claim. Vapors are released, they don’t have to be drilled out to be dangerous. This argument is closed.

    And lastly, I’m glad you understand amalgams are elemental mercury!!! You should have googled that one first like you do everything else.

    I have to say I was expecting much more of a challenging response from you. You are very good at trying to spin what I say or maybe you just aren’t comprehending it right because you are very confused in some of your responses. As a whole though, I am disappointed in the lack of challenge to this latest response. And just to clarify to everyone, many of the above posts are imposters and not me. Yes, I do swear a lot, however I am very intelligent in my thought processes and writing so if it is a bunch of rambline bullshit that makes no sense, it is more than likely an imposter.

    To others, Chris you are still writing dumbass shit man, quit embarrassing yourself thinking you made this huge discovery with your lame ass email from Sally Bernard. And to KathArine, I’m not even going to respond to your “challenge”, it’s more than hilarious and such a beginners question, although if you look really hard you will find the response in this post. Sorry for getting all of your panties in a bunch, however its time the truth is spoken.

  253. #254 a-non
    March 20, 2010

    @245:

    As per flu vaccine uptake: only about a third of children under 18 got the swine flu vaccine as of late-January. Only about half of kids under two get the seasonal flu vaccine, and uptake drops of dramatically after that.

    So even if there is “pressure” for parents to vaccinate their children for influenza, the reality is that a large number of parents don’t.

  254. #255 Chris
    March 20, 2010

    STY:

    That was just her initial email to obtain the vaccines…she had them within 24 hours.

    Liar. If she had some, then Burbacher would not have had to add thimerosal to the vaccines he used in his primate study.

  255. #256 Science Mom
    March 20, 2010

    First off, you and I will never agree on the duration of backstock used with mercury loaded vaccines. You have no idea where you even get the 2002 figure, in fact to put an end to this subject nobody can confirm the exact date so let’s stop talking about it. It really doesn’t matter if it is 2002 or 2004 because you wouldn’t have seen a reduction in rates anyhow because of the flu shot as I have mentioned before.

    You may want to do some review before making statements like this. Because it can be confirmed: http://www.bloomingtonalternative.com/f/weldon_FDA_thimerosal.pdf Additionally, only 2% of TCV’s were still around in February 2002 per surveys of hundreds of paediatric practises. Flu vaccine uptake by pregnant women is only ~13% on average and uptake by children less than 3 years old is also low: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/coveragelevels.htm Children less than 3 are required to receive thimerosal-free influenza vaccines and pregnant women are also preferentially partitioned thimerosal-free influenza vaccines. Since the stocks of thimerosal-free influenza vaccines have been steadily increasing and are ~86% now, there are surpluses. So your claim has fallen flat, yet again. Let the profanities commence.

    At least you aren’t as big of an idiot as Chris claiming his email he has from Sallie Bernard proves anything. Chris come on dude, are you serious? That was just her initial email to obtain the vaccines…she had them within 24 hours.

    And you would be completely and utterly wrong. From the aforementioned Burbacher et al. study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280342/?tool=pubmed

    Seventeen infant monkeys assigned to the thimerosal group were given the typical schedule of vacccines for human infants (Table 1). Thimerosal (Omicron Quimica S.A., Barcelona, Spain), dissolved in saline, was mixed with thimerosal-free vaccines to yield a final concentration of 4, 8, or 20 μg/kg was chosen baed on the range of estimated doses received by human infants receiving vaccines during the first 6 months of life.

    That seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through if they had the TCVs at their disposal as you claim.

    Rho-gam…Ok now we are getting somewhere!

    Thimerosal-free since prior to April, 2001.

    In regards to Aluminum and Mercury…this is an easy one, simply read the MSDS sheet directly from Merck and you will see thimerosal is not to be used with or combined with Aluminum.

    Please do share this. Another evidence-free screed of epic proportions. Please provide some supporting evidence.

  256. #257 Chris
    March 20, 2010

    From the SafeMinds funded Burbacher paper:

    Seventeen infant monkeys assigned to the thimerosal group were given the typical schedule of vaccines for human infants (Table 1). Thimerosal (Omicron Quimica S.A., Barcelona, Spain), dissolved in saline, was mixed with thimerosal-free vaccines to yield a final concentration of 4, 8, or 20 μg/mL Hg,
    depending on the vaccine and the age of the infant

  257. #258 Marc
    March 20, 2010

    This is still going on? Wow I thought it would be over lol. STY really has a lot of free time.

  258. #259 jenbphillips
    March 20, 2010

    Ah, STY, darlin;

    Hence, the end result is more inorganic mercury in the brain from Ethyl exposures than Methyl exposures. THIS IS THE KEY YOU DUMBASS!!!! How many times do I need to tell you this. Do I need to send you Burbacher’s study that proves this?

    No need! It’s free via PubMed. Perhaps this quote from Burbacher would be of interest to you (I bolded the text):

    A much lower brain concentration of total Hg was observed in the thimerosal monkeys compared with the MeHg monkeys, that is, a 3- to 4-fold difference for an equivalent exposure of Hg. Moreover, total Hg is cleared much more rapidly from the brain after thimerosal than after MeHg exposure (24 vs. 60 days).

    hmmmmmm…..

    You can’t argue this one so stop trying to spin it and sound like you didn’t pay attention to what I said. This closes this argument, please acknowledge this.

    You first, STY.

  259. #260 Science Mom
    March 20, 2010

    First off, you and I will never agree on the duration of backstock used with mercury loaded vaccines. You have no idea where you even get the 2002 figure, in fact to put an end to this subject nobody can confirm the exact date so let’s stop talking about it. It really doesn’t matter if it is 2002 or 2004 because you wouldn’t have seen a reduction in rates anyhow because of the flu shot as I have mentioned before.

    You may want to do some review before making statements like this. Because it can be confirmed: http://www.bloomingtonalternative.com/f/weldon_FDA_thimerosal.pdf Additionally, only 2% of TCV’s were still around in February 2002 per surveys of hundreds of paediatric practises. Flu vaccine uptake by pregnant women is only ~13% on average and uptake by children less than 3 years old is also low: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/coveragelevels.htm Children less than 3 are required to receive thimerosal-free influenza vaccines and pregnant women are also preferentially partitioned thimerosal-free influenza vaccines. Since the stocks of thimerosal-free influenza vaccines have been steadily increasing and are ~86% now, there are surpluses. So your claim has fallen flat, yet again. Let the profanities commence.

    At least you aren’t as big of an idiot as Chris claiming his email he has from Sallie Bernard proves anything. Chris come on dude, are you serious? That was just her initial email to obtain the vaccines…she had them within 24 hours.

    And you would be completely and utterly wrong. From the aforementioned Burbacher et al. study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280342/?tool=pubmed

    Seventeen infant monkeys assigned to the thimerosal group were given the typical schedule of vacccines for human infants (Table 1). Thimerosal (Omicron Quimica S.A., Barcelona, Spain), dissolved in saline, was mixed with thimerosal-free vaccines to yield a final concentration of 4, 8, or 20 μg/kg was chosen baed on the range of estimated doses received by human infants receiving vaccines during the first 6 months of life.

    That seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through if they had the TCVs at their disposal as you claim.

    Rho-gam…Ok now we are getting somewhere!

    Thimerosal-free since prior to April, 2001.

    In regards to Aluminum and Mercury…this is an easy one, simply read the MSDS sheet directly from Merck and you will see thimerosal is not to be used with or combined with Aluminum.

    Please do share this. Another evidence-free screed of epic proportions. Please provide some supporting evidence.

  260. #261 jenbphillips
    March 20, 2010

    STY wharrgarbled:

    Your big claim now is that Autism has always been 1 in 110 and there are 1 in 110 adults with Autism and it was just confused for a long time with MR. WOW, you just reached “beyond idiot, absolutely clueless” status. ARE YOU FUCKNG KIDDING ME!!! Show me the 1 in 110 adults with Autism?

    here you go.

  261. #262 jenbphillips
    March 20, 2010

    Listen very carefully, sometimes I don’t think you interpret the English language very well: Amalgams, when brushed lightly release vapors that you can see…do you understand that so far? When you put the mercury vapor analyzer up over the vapors it registers mercury vapors….HELLO…McFly?!?! Comprendo? This is 110% proof that amalgams are not stable like you and every dumb dentist claim. Vapors are released, they don’t have to be drilled out to be dangerous. This argument is closed.

    Hells yeah, I’ve got a link for that one, too!

    Ok, fun’s over. STY, you are a raving loon. I have to hand it to you for your profoundly apt embodiment of the arrogance of ignorance. You’ve thrown nearly every canard in the altie/antivax/conspiracy theorist bible at us, sometimes in duplicate, all generously slathered with ersatz condescension and fanfaronade. Most of it has been hilarious, in a Kwokkian kind of way, but my laughter dries up quickly with sentiments like these:

    I have lived Autism. I will also tell you another thing, it is worse than the worst nightmare you could ever imagine even having. It will introduce you to a world that you could never in a million years even imagine existed, and put you into a place that is a million times worse than hell.

    Lots of people here have ‘lived Autism’, either as parents of autistic children or by virtue of being on the spectrum themselves. Whatever your personal experiences with autism, there is no justification for such callous and bigoted pronouncements. Your worldview is, not surprisingly, just as monumentally fucked as your understanding of science and medicine.

  262. #263 SisterMaryLoquacious
    March 20, 2010

    i nominate jenb for post of the day for her exceedingly apt use of the word “fanfaronade.”

  263. #264 Calli Arcale
    March 20, 2010

    I don’t really have much time today, so I’ll make this quick:

    Gregarious Misanthrope @ 250:

    One of things STY brought up about the difference between ethyl- and methyl-mercury was that ethyl- was somehow converted to a form that stays in the brain much more quickly and that this made ethyl- more dangerous despite its half-life being much shorter.

    I don’t recall you addressing that specifically and I don’t much about it myself. What are your thoughts on this?

    I enjoyed reading your rebuttals.

    No, I didn’t specifically address that, mostly because there was so much else to address. So I’ll address it now.

    He didn’t explain what exactly he was claiming (changes to a more dangerous form is fairly vague, after all). Most likely, it’s the fact that, given enough time, some organic mercury (any kind) will form other mercury compounds, and these can be more harmful. The “given enough time” is the key, though. It doesn’t happen instantaneously. (No chemical reaction does, and the chemistry within the human body is very complex.) STY is basically claiming that ethyl mercury converts to inorganic mercury far more efficiently than methyl mercury does, which is a rather extraordinary claim to make without supporting it. It is, however, a common anti-vax talking point, so I have little doubt that that is where he picked it up. It seems to clear to me that he has swallowed a great deal unquestioningly, rather than educating himself sufficiently to critically examine these claims for himself. But then, that is fairly common for the intellectually lazy.

    Also fairly common in engineering, I’m afraid. I had expressed the sentiment that I hope he’s not an engineer, but now he has said that he is. As another engineer myself, I must confess I’m not totally shocked. Our field does not reward critical thinking adequately.

    I do have to agree with jenbphillips. STY is a raving loon. His basic strategy for coping with contradictory data is to a) pretend it doesn’t exist, b) claim it means the opposite, and/or c) call people names. He was a bit more imaginative in his RhoGAM discussion, but not much. He did not even acknowledge the bias I pointed out in his sample. Even if he did interview *hundreds* of women, *millions* received RhoGAM. His sample is skewed severely, and thus meaningless. He does not understand this.

    I am horrified that he says he’s talked to women who had several children, but only had the immunoglobulin shot for one of them. Obviously a fair number of people do not know what is at stake. I will not bother to explain, though, as he apparently does believe Rh disease of the fetus is preferable to autism. (Which makes me wonder how he’d feel about a Down’s Syndrome fetus diagnosed before birth. Where does he stand on that aspect of the abortion debate, if he feels having a mentally disabled child is the worst nightmare imaginable?)

    Which leads me to the quote of his which I believe sums up the entire issue for him. One need not read the rest of his arguments, because this alone explains why he is so willing to throw away facts. It’s because this issue is so important to him that it is more important than the truth.

    I will tell you one thing, I have lived Autism. I will also tell you another thing, it is worse than the worst nightmare you could ever imagine even having. It will introduce you to a world that you could never in a million years even imagine existed, and put you into a place that is a million times worse than hell. I will not respond to your comment whether it would be better to have autism or death from the swine flu itself.

    The worst nightmare you can imagine, eh? I submit you have a very limited imagination — and a very narrow view of the world, one dominated by your own inconveniences, and damn the rest of the world.

    Do you know anyone who has lost a child? I know several. They would gladly trade autism for the tragedy which claimed their child. (Again, STY, you should read bensmyson’s posts. They have made it very clear that while they wish their son were not disabled, they wouldn’t trade him for anything.) How about anyone who’s child was severely disabled in some other way? I know several — one due to encephalitis, one due to an anoxic brain injury, one due to a stroke, one born with fetal alcohol syndrome (adopted by people who knew that he had FAS), one due to cancer, one due to a congenital kidney problem (which killed him in his early 20s), one due to a traumatic brain injury…. Yes, life is hard if you have a severely autistic child. (I’m lucky; my child’s condition is mild, and very consistent with the sorts of things that have been in my family for generations.) But get your head out of your own self-pity for a moment before you start pretending that it is the worst possible thing to happen to your child.

    In fact, I recommend you pull your head out of your own self-pity before your child advances enough to realize how you feel on the subject. No child wants to be a burden on their parents; don’t put him or her through that. If you take one thing away from this conversation, I hope it’s that — your child is not hell, your child is not your tormentor, your child is YOUR CHILD, and you have a responsibility to love him or her. If you can’t deal with that, get help (e.g. respite care) before it is too late.

  264. #265 MI Dawn
    March 20, 2010

    @jenbphillips: hey, jen. Nice to see you back again and posting wonderful information in rebuttal to STY (who I have killfiled so I don’t have to read her GIGO stuff. Your rebuttals and Calli’s are enough to make me happy for Greasemonkey.

    P.S. I LOVE wharrgarble…I’ve seen it before but didn’t know where the link was…Thanks!

  265. #266 jenbphillips
    March 21, 2010

    Looking upthread I see that STY is off this weekend, no doubt conducting an interview with “Pfizer” or something that will contribute to his groundbreaking exposé changing everything we THINK WE KNOW about MERCURY. So I won’t hold my breath for a reply.

    Thanks Sister Mary. I always tell my kids that excessive cursing is a sign of intellectual laziness, so I guess the logical opposite of that is having–and using–a big vocabulary. I love being able to find the perfect word for any given situation, but when I reach for the ’50-centers’ (as my middle school English teacher used to call them) like ‘fanfaronade’, it’s almost always because I’m making a conscious effort to avoid using ‘fucking bullshit’ or similar.

    Calli, thanks again for your 263 re: the ‘worst nightmare’ fallacy and loving children with special needs. You said exactly what I was thinking.

    MI Dawn–thanks! I love wharrgarbl as well. It’s all over the ‘net–the tricky part is remembering how to spell it ;)

  266. #267 Salk
    March 21, 2010

    Wow, jenbphillips FTW!

  267. #268 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    You will all be happy to know that this is my last post for a while, Marc whas right that I am spending too much critical time debating people with very small brains. Don’t worry however, I’m sure I will make another appearance soon when I need a good laugh and I feel the need to debate the town drunks.

    @Jenb, you are sooo smart….NOT EVEN CLOSE. First of all, maybe you have severe ADD so you can’t get to the end of a study. Read below carefully taken directly from your idiotic post that just backfired on you:

    “A higher percentage of the total Hg in the brain was in the form of inorganic Hg for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys (34% vs. 7%). The results indicate that MeHg is not a suitable reference for risk assessment from exposure to thimerosal-derived Hg. Knowledge of the toxicokinetics and developmental toxicity of thimerosal is needed to afford a meaningful assessment of the developmental effects of thimerosal-containing vaccines.”

    “The inorganic form of Hg was readily measurable in the brain of the thimerosal-exposed monkeys. The average concentration of inorganic Hg did not change across the 28 days of washout and was approximately 16 ng/mL (Figure 7). This level of inorganic Hg represented 21–86% of the total Hg in the brain (mean ± SE, 70 ± 4%), depending on the sacrifice time. These values are considerably higher than the inorganic fraction observed in the brain of MeHg monkeys (6–10%).”

    “There was a much higher proportion of inorganic Hg in the brain of thimerosal monkeys than in the brains of MeHg monkeys (up to 71% vs. 10%). Absolute inorganic Hg concentrations in the brains of the thimerosal-exposed monkeys were approximately twice that of the MeHg monkeys. Interestingly, the inorganic fraction in the kidneys of the same cohort of monkeys was also significantly higher after im thimerosal than after oral MeHg exposure (0.71 ± 0.04 vs. 0.40 ± 0.03). This suggests that the dealkylation of ethylmercury is much more extensive than that of MeHg.”

    Stop bugging me on this one!!!

    Second of all, Calli, I am no longer responding to you. At least Jenb brought up a few decent points. You on the other hand go grasping at the whole abortion nonsense, and the completely senseless question of whether it would be better to be dead or have Autism. You are completely absurd to even bring these types of points up. Get over it and focus on the Science!

    @a-non, even though I’m not sure why we are still talking about flu shots, that is a large number of children, much larger than the number prior to 2004!!! Grasp the point!!!

    @Chris, you are still an idiot I see, you are making a huge assumption, and that is all it is an assumption. You are trying to do 1 + 5 and hoping it equals 10. To conclude from Sallie’s initial email that she was unable to find these vaccines simple by looking at Burbacher’s methodology is rediculous and unfounded. Stop with these stupid little comebacks. Does anyone else find Chris to have the dumbest point on this entire blog? I will not address this one again. Chris, I hope you aren’t a lawyer pal because a jury would laugh at you for how you came to your conclusion.

    @Oh shit not (Sceince Mom) Allison Singer again. Your statement about Rho-gam not containing thimerosal since 2001 is pointless. What does this have to do with anything? I have not made a claim about them still containing thimerosal. Although a study should now be done on pre and post 2001 Rho-gam moms. Maybe the CDC will fund this study…ha right! Well then again they will fund a pharmaceutical company who manufacturer’s Rho-gam to perform it. Oh, and see what I wrote to Chris because you made the exact moronic assumption.

    @Jenb…wow, yet another neurodiversity dipshit you are. Haha good luck with this study. Seriously, if you believe that Autism numbers have not increased and the rate has always been at 1 in 110, you have your eyes completely glued shut to this devastating “EPIDEMIC”. Those of you that believe this are shutting the biggest door to recovery for your children. Even some of the biggest people from your side who are so firm in their stance that vaccines don’t cause Autism, now understand there is an environmental component. Anyone who knows anything about Autism understands at this point in time two things: There is a genetic susceptibility and an environmental trigger. I didn’t realize I was in a neurodiversity blog. This is really disappointing. In this case I have been arguing with people who live in la la land and their world and experience with Autism is a great one and they wouldn’t change it if they could. God made your child this way right? WRONG, gross negligence by humans has made your child this way!!!!!!!

    One last thing to the utterly dumb Jenb…you just showed me you are a google queen. You simply google all day and think you know everything. The proof is your link to a Stephen Barrett article on amalgams. That guy is the biggest clownshow on the internet. He is very googleable however, and you found this article very easy. Come over to my house and you will see with your own eyes the vapors coming off an amalgam and the mercury vaporizer located directly above it register the mercury vapors. If Stephen’s article makes you feel better about the mercury you had in your mouth when your developing fetus was in the most critical stage of development, then so be it. This issue is not even debatable. IT IS A FACT.

    So you simple minded people can put your moronic attachments up all day long thinking you actually have a point when you have your eyes so closed. But then again, if I were you I would have my eyes closed also so I wouldn’t have to look at myself in the mirror.

    Also, below is an MSDS sheet for thimerosal. Pay close attention to aluminum and see yet again severe gross negligence. “Violent reactions possible with ALUMINUM”

    http://chemdat.merck.de/documents/sds/emd/int/en/8170/817043.pdf

    I’m sure I missed a few I needed to respond to but I’m tired and don’t really care. Bye Bye dumb ones…until next time! Try to drink a few less beers next time so I get some logical thinking out of you. Thanks.

  268. #269 Chris
    March 22, 2010

    Why would Bernard be looking for thimerosal containing vaccines if Burbacher planned to add it in varying amounts in the first place.

    It looks like she tried to get some, failed. So Burbacher changed his game plan.

    How is your fictional trip going? Have you even left your mother’s basement yet?

  269. #270 Science Mom
    March 22, 2010

    To conclude from Sallie’s initial email that she was unable to find these vaccines simple by looking at Burbacher’s methodology is rediculous and unfounded. Stop with these stupid little comebacks. Does anyone else find Chris to have the dumbest point on this entire blog?

    No, it would be you that has the dumbest points on this blog. You can’t re-visit this because you are wrong. If Burbacher had found TCVs, he would have written such in the methods. He didn’t so had to add thimerosal to paediatric vaccines, just as he indicated. That is the point of including your methods in the methods section.

    Your statement about Rho-gam not containing thimerosal since 2001 is pointless. What does this have to do with anything? I have not made a claim about them still containing thimerosal.

    You are dodging, as usual. You have repeatedly remarked about ‘RhoGam mothers’ and influenza vaccines as though there was contemporaneous inclusion of thimerosal.

    Also, below is an MSDS sheet for thimerosal. Pay close attention to aluminum and see yet again severe gross negligence. “Violent reactions possible with ALUMINUM”

    I asked for supporting evidence, not some blurb you puked up from an MSDS that you have absolutely no understanding of. In fact, your inclusion of this reminded me of a whackjob poster on AoA that Orac blogged about: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/09/what_were_up_against_aluminum_as_the_new.php I wonder if you are that same person.

  270. #271 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    Actually a couple last things because your stupidity makes me laugh very hard and I need it:

    @Jenb… your comment included “A much lower brain concentration of total Hg was observed in the thimerosal monkeys compared with the MeHg monkeys, that is, a 3- to 4-fold difference for an equivalent exposure of Hg. Moreover, total Hg is cleared much more rapidly from the brain after thimerosal than after MeHg exposure (24 vs. 60 days).”

    See people like you interpret Science completely wrong…the key words in your post are “TOTAL HG”!!! Your interpretation of the meaning of what you posted is therefore completely wrong because you don’t know the difference between “Total HG” and “Inorganic HG”. It is the inorganic form that causes the severe neurologic complications. I bet you still won’t understand this as it could be confusing to a moron.

    @”I don’t know anything about Science Mom”…Your post….”In regards to Aluminum and Mercury…this is an easy one, simply read the MSDS sheet directly from Merck and you will see thimerosal is not to be used with or combined with Aluminum.
    Please do share this. Another evidence-free screed of epic proportions. Please provide some supporting evidence.”

    You asked me to share the msds dumbass and then you try to back up and say you asked for supporting evidence…You are stupid! So I gave it to you. Read it and wheep. I’m sure after reading it you still think it is ok to inject this neurotoxin into your child. Your poor children have a very dumb mother that puts their lives at risk. You must remember I am an Engineer and I work extensively with MSDS sheets in my career. I am very fluent with reading them so nice try with your “assumption” that I have no understanding of it. It would be really hard to misinterpret this document. What part of Merck’s statement “Violent reactions possible with Aluminum” don’t you get? You simply close your eyes to anything that applies and implicates that we may have a serious problem here. I challenge you to respond to this in your own words and not some article that doesn’t apply. You dodged this one so fast because you knew you were burnt. Your post and response to this was completely moronic and didn’t counter my point or even anything close to it. You and Chris are by far the bottom of the barrel on this blog. ORAC, do you really allow these idiots to comment? They are even an insult to you.

    And to re-address the dumbest point on this blog. You and ChriTY are assuming Sallie’s email was specifically for Burbacher’s study. Where did it say that? The toxicologist (also university based) I interviewed on Saturday has also experimented on these exact vaccines with Sallie and others, and so have other researchers such as myself. Show me exactly where she says it is for Burbachers study, because I know of several studies with these exact vaccines that were going on around the same time with other researchers. Also, why would the email only address DTap, this makes no sense if your claim is accurate? What about Hep B, Hib, etc? Again, such a stupid point you have anyhow to try and prove something. You two are the biggest rookie mistake makers on here.

    Anyone else notice anything very interesting about the thimerosal msds? I think all of you need to read it so you finally understand the difference between acute and chronic exposures. Find any similarities with the chronic symptoms??? Ha, you might as well just sum it up in one word on the msds…AUTISM!!!! Oh wait, I forgot all you dipshits think Autism is strictly a psychological condition. You couldn’t be any further from the truth. Well, the truth is coming like a freight train and about to run you all over.

    Later Morons!

  271. #272 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    @Jenb…I bet you feel really stupid now that you even tried using your big fancy words when all you ended up doing was proving beyond any doubt that you don’t know how to interpret a very simple, yet very important, piece of the Science. It’s time that you stand down because if you make that big of a mistake, you simply can’t be counted on as a valid voice of reason. But it would be nice for you to admit that you didn’t interpret the study right. Are you the type that can admit when they are wrong? We will find out…

    @Calli, you never answered my question of the gender of your child on the spectrum, or the gender of your typical child? Even though I doubt you will tell the truth, why don’t you humor us?

    Shit, I’m getting bored of you all. You simply have nothing to offer me here, but lame responses. I have been giving you all many opportunities, however I’m not feeling any type of challenge here. Yaaaawwwwwnnnnnnn!

  272. #273 Chris
    March 22, 2010

    It was not an email, it was a posting on the Autism-Mercury Yahoo group. You are as clueless as the noobies to Usenet who kept thinking they were on the internet, and that posting on Usenet was “blogging.” Like the PeterB who started the whole idiotic Pharma Shill Gambit. I’d think you were PeterB, but he was actually a bit brighter than you (and admitted to selling supplements).

    Your thick closed skull cannot also deal with the fact that if Bernard had found thimerosal containing vaccine, then Burbacher (who was being paid by SafeMinds) would not have had to mix up their own.

    Now, if you have any real evidence to support your opinions, please share them. Otherwise, just keep your delusions to yourself.

  273. #274 Raging Bee
    March 22, 2010

    I can tell you every answer you have ever wanted to know in regards to the cause of Autism. Why there are 4 boys to every girl, why the entire epidemic started when it did, why the rates spiked exactly when they did, why some are born with it and others regress, why there are only 1 in 110 at this time that have it and not everyone, why the symptoms are exactly what they are, why there is a delay in onset of symptoms after the “final” exposure before they enter full blown Autism, why one child might have it but the brothers and sisters don’t, etc. etc. etc. Don’t start asking me these questions because I’m probably not going to keep responding on here because this is taking too much of my time and I can’t give all this away right now because it will all be coming out soon.

    Oh yeah…STY knows everything, but we all gotta wait for it, it’s coming out “soon.” And, as STY spent a LOT of time explaining to us, he doesn’t have time to answer all the questions he spent so much time claiming he could answer.

    The birthers said exactly the same thing shortly after Obama’s inauguration, and we’re still waiting for the game-changing bombshell revelations they promised us. They never appeared, it’s a pretty safe bet they never will appear, and it’s an equally safe bet that STY’s bombshell revelations will never appear either.

    STY also promised us he wouldn’t be posting here anymore; and he couldn’t even keep that promise. His track record for trustworthiness is — to put it mercifully — nonexistent.

    I will tell you one thing, I have lived Autism. I will also tell you another thing, it is worse than the worst nightmare you could ever imagine even having. It will introduce you to a world that you could never in a million years even imagine existed, and put you into a place that is a million times worse than hell. I will not respond to your comment whether it would be better to have autism or death from the swine flu itself.

    Oh well, at least his track record for pointless, pathological, pathetic hostility and resentment is a bit more reliable. Given how much of our time this guy has tried to monopolize just to spew an endless well of hatred at us, I REALLY hope there aren’t any children or small animals within his reach. This loser needs professional help — big time.

  274. #275 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    ChrisTY…you are a fucking idiot dudet! So she must have found all of the other vaccines then, because the only one she was asking for was DTaP, yet Burbacher still added thimerosal to all of the thimerosal free vaccines. Dude, get a clue, your “assumption” makes no sense. Shut the fuck up already! Your panties are in the biggest bunch over such an idiotic point.

  275. #276 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    wow Raging Bee..you bring up such educated intelligent points and have so much insight on this issue. Get the hell off this blog numbnuts…you don’t know one thing about Autism.

  276. #277 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    ChrisTY…you are a fucking idiot dudet! So Sallie must have found all of the other vaccines then, because the only one she was asking for was DTaP, yet Burbacher still added thimerosal to all of the thimerosal free vaccines. Dude, get a clue, your “assumption” makes no sense. Shut the fuck up already! Your panties are in the biggest bunch over such an idiotic point that really wouldn’t prove or disprove anything anyway. You are a little unstable and can’t handle when someone calls you out over something really dumb you have done. Face it and move on.

    Does anyone have anything of substance to say? My responses are at least full of substance, profanity sometimes as well but that comes with this condition and the straight up inability to accept ignorance and stupidity.

    You people really need to pay attention to @268 and @271. These seemed to have made this “discussion” very quiet all of a sudden.

  277. #278 RAging Bee
    March 22, 2010

    Excuse me, STY, but you have no authority to order anyone about here. This isn’t your blog, remember? Your relentless chest-pounding, name-calling fake-macho routine may work in a redneck bar, but it doesn’t work here; all it does is remind us all that you never learned to function as an adult in the company of other adults. If you don’t like the company here, YOU should be the one to bugger off. (But of course you won’t — you claim to hate us and have no time for us, but you can’t leave because there’s nowhere else where you can spew your sick hate, with impunity, and be the center of attention. You need us as much as you need food.

  278. #279 Chris
    March 22, 2010

    You responses are full of absolutely nothing but your clueless vitriol. They are just empty rants.

    Delusional troll is delusional.

  279. #280 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    @ChrisTY…your response was as expected…

    Come on I want someone who knows at least one thing about Autism to give me your best shot!

    Chris get your dipshit ass out of here already, you don’t know anything and all you are doing is embarrassing yourself. I’m about to start being nice to you because I feel embarrassed for you.

  280. #281 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    Hey Chris…I will give you a chance to redeem yourself…read the msds sheet I posted on here if you are smart enough to find it. Read it very thoroughly and tell me why you think it is acceptable to inject this into children at rates that far exceed the EPA guideline? Also tell me how it is acceptable to be using thimerosal in vaccines that contain aluminum? And yes, vaccines contain aluminum, I’m positive you didn’t know that. Can you give me your thoughts on this AFTER you read the MSDS very carefully?

    Hey Raging Bee Pollen…dude come on, say something that is valid about this issue or at least respond to some of my points? As for the way I talk, I adjust my dimeanor accordingly, and as you see by who I am talking to in here, there is no reason to talk to them like adults. I feel like I am debating the town high school drunks. Not only are they drunk and vulgar, they are not educated on this issue at all. If I was actually talking to educated adults, I would be the most professional person you have ever seen.

  281. #282 Chris
    March 22, 2010

    Delusional troll, the MSDS for thimerosal does make the case the dose makes the poison. Just like the MSDS for table salt.

    Your food contains aluminum. The dust in the air you breathe contains aluminum. That is because as the most abundant metal on this planet’s crust it is contained in the compounds that make up soil.

    Tootle off now.

  282. #283 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    @Chris…you fail…you are probably the most clueless person I have ever encountered…what you said is so stupid that you will not even get a response on that from your own side. Keep eating and breathing your aluminum pal!!! Once again you don’t understand the question or the point. Are you in 8th grade chemistry class right now? bye bye

  283. #284 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    Still waiting on Jenb to acknowledge how wrong she was in her interpretation of Burbachers study…damn, did you just read a few lines and then try to tell everyone something completely wrong just to save your face? Then you pranced around acting like you had called me out and said thanks to everyone for telling you how good of a job you did at responding to me? Wow, that is embarrassing ;) ;) as you would do JENNIFER B PHILLIPS!

  284. #285 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    How do you like Jenb now Salk, MI Dawn and Sister Mary? FTW!!!! whooohoooo!

  285. #286 triskelethecat
    March 22, 2010

    I like JenBPhillips just fine. I think her writing is coherent, and she posts very good links to science-based medicine articles. And once in a while I like to peek at car crashes so I see what STY has to say, then I re-block the comments. I do so love greasemonkey and killfile.

    Hi, Jen (waves)

  286. #287 jenbphillips
    March 22, 2010

    Gosh, everyone, I’m so sorry I left STY unattended for so long. My, he has been fractious!

    You will all be happy to know that this is my last post for a while

    How many times is that that you’ve threatened to leave, STY? How can we miss you if you won’t go away? You’ve posted NINE TIMES since that statement, by the way, but I hope you’ve enjoyed wallowing in your alternate reality, in which you envision me finding my happy place in the corner after the proper spanking you’ve given me. In actual reality, I have a job that takes precedence over dealing with unstable Dunning-Kruger poster children, and this is the first opportunity I’ve had to respond.
    You ranted:

    See people like you interpret Science completely wrong…the key words in your post are “TOTAL HG”!!! Your interpretation of the meaning of what you posted is therefore completely wrong because you don’t know the difference between “Total HG” and “Inorganic HG”.

    On the contrary, I do know the difference between “Total HG[sic]” and “Inorganic HG[sic]”. The most important difference for the purposes of this discussion is that Inorganic Hg is a component of the values given for Total Hg. Yes, the Burbacher study reported that of the total Hg detected in the brain, a higher percentage of it was inorganic in the thimerosal group vs. the MeHg group. I have not disputed that at any time. However, the total levels were still lower, and were cleared more quickly, in the thimerosal group. There are no data that support your claims that inorganic mercury “locks in [to the brain] and doesn’t go back to the blood”.

    Burbacher et al do a bit of bleating and handwaving in the discussion about the purported thimerosal-autism connection, but their findings contribute nothing to this discussion, and of course in the intervening years numerous studies have failed to find any connection. Further, Burbacher et al did not do any sort of functional or histological analyses on these brains, thus everything you have raved on about regarding “severe neurologic complications” is unsupported by this or any other study investigating ethyl mercury in comparable amounts to what WAS injected during the course of the pediatric vaccine schedule. Note the past tense–as you no doubt recall, thimerosal has been removed from the childhood vaccines, and flu shots are also available in thimerosal-free preparations.

    One last thing [!!!!] to the utterly dumb Jenb…you just showed me you are a google queen. You simply google all day and think you know everything.

    No, I showed you an alternative strategy to your own which seems to consist principally of making shit up, along with a soupçon of freshly picked cherries; namely, citing sources and enabling other people to see and evaluate the background information that has led me to my current opinion on these matters. For someone who likes to crow about how ‘the Science’ is done, you seem regrettably unfamiliar with this approach.

    I’m out of time and patience for wiping the drool off your chin, STY. Have a nice evening.

  287. #288 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    Damn Jenb…really sad response…you turned into Calli. She shut up when I plowed her over. Now you are shutting up too?

    You are so slow with this…you said “However, the total levels were still lower, and were cleared more quickly, in the thimerosal group. There are no data that support your claims that inorganic mercury “locks in [to the brain] and doesn’t go back to the blood”.

    Must I copy and paste with less words to zero in on the key words that seem to fly right by your small brain:

    “Absolute inorganic Hg concentrations in the brains of the thimerosal-exposed monkeys were approximately twice that of the MeHg monkeys.”

    “This suggests that the dealkylation of ethylmercury is much more extensive than that of MeHg.”

    That should better suit your simple minded brain…do you know what dealkylation means Jenb? There is no debate about inorganic mercury not being able to readily cross the blood brain barrier like organic does. This is common knowledge and has already been proven and accepted. Oh, but maybe you can google an “article” by Stephen Barrett that “proves” otherwise. Maybe you should go out for once in your life and talk to someone like Burbacher who has studied mercury for many many years. You will hear it directly from him too that ethyl mercury de-ethylates into the inorganic form which locks into the brain and induces an inflammatory response (inflammation) in the brain. Have you ever had your brain become inflammed after receiving a single vaccination with 25 mcg of mercury in it Jenb? I can tell you first hand it is not fun. I will also tell you that I don’t have any kids.

    Well, since this one is a lost cause because you simply don’t understand science….why don’t you read the msds sheet for thimerosal and get back to me on why it is safe to combine it with aluminum in vaccines? Also, at the same time, after you actually read the MSDS for the first time in your life, let me know how as a parent you are ok with this being injected into your children? You don’t have much of a protective side do you? Also, just out of curiosity, do you notice any similarities between Autism and what the msds says can happen from chronic mercury exposure?

    I’m not feeling the intelligence from you Jenb…

  288. #289 Chris
    March 22, 2010

    Needs more cowbell.

  289. #290 Science Mom
    March 22, 2010

    Damn Jenb…really sad response…you turned into Calli. She shut up when I plowed her over. Now you are shutting up too?

    I think you have mistaken prevailing here for not wanting to deal with your batshit insanity.

    why don’t you read the msds sheet for thimerosal and get back to me on why it is safe to combine it with aluminum in vaccines?

    You are making the same mistake that so many anti-vaxxers before you have. You are putting stock into an MSDS without understanding how you can’t extrapolate that information to what you are attempting. But since you think that is such a linchpin, stick with it, it’s one of the few entertaining qualities that you have.

    Also, just out of curiosity, do you notice any similarities between Autism and what the msds says can happen from chronic mercury exposure?

    No, none. Mercury toxicity does not exhibit the same symptoms as autism. You would know that if you actually spoke to any of the people and entire organisations that you have claimed.

    You couldn’t be any further from the truth. Well, the truth is coming like a freight train and about to run you all over.

    Ooooo, I can’t wait. I certainly understand that your saga will be a challenge to transform into interpretive dance but don’t forget the Jazz Hands, you gotta have Jazz Hands.

  290. #291 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    Hey Science Mom…why do you ramble about pointless shit without a true response to my questions…

    You are starting to show your emotional instability a little Science Mom. It appears that I am getting you to lose your composure a little bit. Those who lose their composure lose Allison, I suggest you get it under control.

    Elaborate on your msds comment without just stating a worthless opinion. I don’t give a shit what you say Allison Singer, remove the immense bags from under your eyes so you can read the msds and see thimerosal should never be used with aluminum. Good proof behind this one moron!

    In regards to Mercury Symptoms…all you understand is acute symptoms dumbshit…just do a little research on chronic and get back to me…maybe autistic kids don’t have sensory issues, or central nervous system issues, or irritability, or maybe they are just perfectly healthy like you all claim? Ha, hilarious, actually distubing sad for your children who could get better if they had parents with brains that would fight for their health.

    One other thing…I know many of you doubt some of the things I have claimed that I have done…go ahead and doubt this, but I assure you it is all true. I might be a little crude, but I will not lie to you about something I told you I have done. Take from that what you will and keep acting like I haven’t done things to make yourselves feel better about having done nothing yourselves. You will all see in the end. The clock is ticking you moron high school town drunks.

  291. #292 Chris
    March 22, 2010

    Definitely needs more cowbell.

    (time to ignore troll)

  292. #293 jenbphillips
    March 22, 2010

    I’m not feeling the intelligence from you Jenb…

    *sad panda*

    Needs more cowbell.

    ROFL!

  293. #294 David N. Brown
    March 23, 2010

    Time to deal with this creature on its own level:
    STY: STFU.

  294. #295 Smarter Than You
    March 23, 2010

    Chris just ring the bell around you neck…Jenb good response…David, what you don’t realize is I adapt to my environment. Who are you again? And what do you know about the cause of Autism? STFU huh, are you a 13 year old girl (tween) and this is how you talk? I’ve never heard of a 13 year old girl named David…strange.

    Wow, the responses have come down to this huh…you all are much too easy to defeat. I was waiting for this time when your responses were as silly and meaningless as these.

  295. #296 Chris
    March 23, 2010

    Nah, still needs more cowbell.

  296. #297 Smarterer than Smarter Than You
    March 23, 2010

    I think it is sad how trivially easy it is to overpower Smarter Than You with my superior intellect. Frankly, I’m surprised this individual (probably a teenage girl skipping the school she desperately needs) has managed to type so much on a keyboard that must function poorly when pounded upon by pudgy fingers coated with a gummy residue of Cheetos and drool.

    I know it’s not socially appropriate to point out intellectual deficiencies in one’s antagonists, but I worry for the safety of Smarter Than You, someone who is clearly taken to suboptimal health choices. My guess is that Smarter Than You is snorting pulverized lead paint chips…this would explain the irritability, aggressiveness and severe learning problems.

    Although it’s not sporting to pick on the blithering cretin, I enjoy exalting in my nonpareil intellectual capacity. It’s fun to win, and I have completely and utterly destroyed this maundering simpleton without even trying. Since I have repeatedly eviscerated my distended dullard of a sparring opponent, I bid adieu to Smarter Than You and her risible attempts at conversant English. Keep up that typing, sweetheart: practice makes perfect!

  297. #298 jenbphillips
    March 23, 2010

    STY, you can continue to quote the paper at me line by line if you wish, but repeating things over and over again doesn’t make them true. The data in this publication are insufficient to support the extraordinary claims you are making. It’s really that simple.

    Maybe you should go out for once in your life and talk to someone like Burbacher who has studied mercury for many many years. You will hear it directly from him too that ethyl mercury de-ethylates into the inorganic form which locks into the brain and induces an inflammatory response (inflammation) in the brain.

    Ah, an argument from authority. At least that’s a change of pace from wild-assed assertions from your own head. It doesn’t matter what Burbacher’s credentials are–his hypotheses regarding thimerosal and ‘brain inflammation’ are not supported by any published data. If he or anyone has further studies to add to the picture, they will be objectively evaluated when they appear. Until that time, if all you can bring to the discussion are the 2005 study, an MSDS which, again, doesn’t support the conclusions you’re drawing from it, and your personal experience, anecdotes, and vague foreshadowing…you lose.

    Well, the truth is coming like a freight train and about to run you all over.

    And I’ll look forward to revisiting this topic when the freight train delivers the promised goods. Ciao.

  298. #299 Calli Arcale
    March 23, 2010

    “You will all be happy to know that this is my last post for a while”

    Promises, promises…..

    I am impressed at how quickly STY (the alleged engineer) pulls out the MSDS for thimerosal, as if this is some innovative argument rather than one of the more common talking-points made by the mercury militia. Clearly he/she/it is just as ignorant of the difference between industrial exposure and vaccines as he/she/it is of the difference between vaccines and dietary exposure. (Here’s a little hint: when you get a dental x-ray, the technician leaves the room to avoid radiation exposure. Yet you are allowed to be exposed? What’s up with that? Simple. While your dose greatly exceeds the recommended daily allowance for a dental technician, you’re only getting that once every year or so, whereas he/she would be getting it several times a day. As with mercury exposure, if it’s kept occasional, your body is more than capable of dealing with it. Which perhaps explains why our species has actually survived on this planet. To hear the Age of Autism folks talk, you’d think our species should’ve gone extinct about a million years ago.)

    I am also amused by the way the individual has, several times, dismissed opposing evidence as something someone googled, when it is fairly obvious that STY has an extremely shallow understanding of these concepts — as befitting someone who’s education might actually be *improved* by Google, since at the moment, STY’s arguments are essentially what is typically spoonfed by the mercury militia rather than anything he/she/it is likely to have discovered independently. “The MSDS for thimerosal says you need to take special precautions! OMG! And we inject it into our babies!” Well, yeah. You have to take special precautions when handling table salt too. Out of context, it means nothing.

  299. #300 colmcq
    March 23, 2010

    STY

    watch this video:

    http://bartholomewcubbins.blogspot.com/2007/01/bc-on-autism-revisiting-burbacher-2005.html … because it explains the Burbacher paper really well and illustrates the critical flaws it had and why you can’t extrapolate too much from it…

  300. #301 Smarter Than You
    March 23, 2010

    Damn, you guys have idiotic comebacks, and again nothing at all that counters anything I have said…

    The reason I have been so focused on the ehtyl mercury and msds is because they are two of the most elementary points of the whole issue and you guys can’t even dispell them other than your stupid insults that you claim I am such a “bad person” for doing right back to you. These are only two of literally hundreds of points and Science I can throw back at you but I simply can’t move on from these two because you have simply not addressed them. I have battled people like you for a long time, but you guys have been the least educated and had the fewest decent responses to anything I have said. I’m not going to even try to throw anything more complicated your way because you don’t even comprehend or understand the most simple pieces. I think even the dumbest of dumb Christschool and Kevin Leitch have given me more of an effort and that is sad. But eventually they ended up just losing their composures as well and all they had left was….”well well well ummmmm your mom!” Thats exactly the stage that you are all at and we barely skimmed the surface. The two most basic things you just try to shrug off as if it means nothing. You must all be associated with the CDC, they are known for this type of thing. I advise you all to open your fucking eyes!!!

  301. #302 David N. Brown
    March 23, 2010

    STY,
    I prefer intelligent discussion to insults and profanity, but the latter are far more prominent in your postings than the former. If it were my call, your comments and my own last one would be off.

  302. #303 Pablo
    March 23, 2010

    Maybe you should go out for once in your life and talk to someone like Burbacher who has studied mercury for many many years. You will hear it directly from him too that ethyl mercury de-ethylates into the inorganic form which locks into the brain and induces an inflammatory response (inflammation) in the brain.

    If I _were_ to talk to Burbacher, I might ask him what he means by “the inorganic form” of mercury. What ligands is he actually talking about? He couldn’t seriously mean mercury(0), because there aren’t that many reducing agents around, are there? What are the redox potentials?

  303. #304 Chris
    March 23, 2010

    Delusional Troll:

    nothing at all that counters anything I have said…

    Because, Kevin Champagne, you have not said anything that is substantial, supported by any evidence or has anything to do with reality.

    And it still needs more cowbell.

  304. #305 Vindaloo
    March 23, 2010

    Was that really Kevin Champagne? Dude, say “hi” to the Cajun Cowboy the next time Buttar butters you up.

  305. #306 Chris
    March 23, 2010

    It just seemed like his attitude, especially when he named Kevin Leitch. But I thought he was a truck driver, not an engineer.

  306. #307 Chris
    March 23, 2010

    Just finished a little research. I was at the library (yes, I actually do go to the library, Google is not everything) and read an article in the magazine Scientific American (I also checked out three books, one being a biography of Paul Dirac, and a Doctor Who DVD, “The New Doctor”).

    It was the Evolution of Minerals. This is where I learned that the most abundant minerals on the earth’s crust are feldspars, about 60%.

    Now, doing a bit more research on feldspar in wikipedia and the World Book Encyclopedia on our bookcase I find out that all feldspars contain silica and alumina (yeah, that is aluminum). The three main chemical compounds are KAlSi3O8, NaAlSi3O8, and CaAl2Si2O8.

    Notice how all three of them have these letters: Al ! Yep, that is aluminum. It is in the soil that you grow food in. It is part of the dust you breathe when the wind blows.

    My encyclopedia says feldspar is used in making glass, ceramics and paper. A clay that is created when fledspar weathers, Kaolinite, is used to make fine china. The chemical makeup of Kaolinite is Al2Si2O5(OH)4. Who is now afraid of Grandma’s fine china?

    So other than finding another planet to live on, how would you avoid ingesting and breathing in aluminum?

  307. #308 David N. Brown
    March 24, 2010

    Chris,
    As someone with a bachelor’s degree in geology, I have found the panic over aluminum highly amusing. You understate it a bit: “clay”, technically defined, has aluminum in it. Hence, a kid who eats a mouthful of mud could easily ingest more aluminum than would be in a thousand vaccines.

    Also, a bit of randomness, that I think could sum up a philosophy for many here: “Ours is not to rule the Earth. We just clean up the mess.”
    http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5777397/11/Shoe_shopping

  308. #309 David N. Brown
    March 24, 2010

    Chris,
    As someone with a bachelor’s degree in geology, I have found the panic over aluminum highly amusing. You understate it a bit: “clay”, technically defined, has aluminum in it. Hence, a kid who eats a mouthful of mud could easily ingest more aluminum than would be in a thousand vaccines.

    Also, a bit of randomness, that I think could sum up a philosophy for many here: “Ours is not to rule the Earth. We just clean up the mess.”
    http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5777397/11/Shoe_shopping

  309. #310 David N. Brown
    March 24, 2010

    Sorry for duplicate comments, things got hung up.
    “You must all be associated with the CDC, they are known for this type of thing.”
    “Kevin Champagne, you have not said anything that is substantial, supported by any evidence or has anything to do with reality.”
    No, no, clearly (Pig)STY is trying to advertise that he is really JB HANDLEY. The profanity… the insults… the ad hominem arguments… the preposterous exagerations, errors, and/or lies… obviously all the things JBH is “known for”.

  310. #311 Mike Frandsen
    May 1, 2010

    please see my article on vaccines, chelation, and recovery at http://www.examiner.com/x-43538-DC-Autism-Examiner~y2010m4d26-Autism-advocate-Lyn-Redwood-discusses-mercury-vaccine-controversy-chelation-treatment-and-recovery. Of note is that Redwood had Gamulin injections while pregnant. Interestingly, a second mother of a child with autism I interviewed had the same thing.

  311. #312 Scottynuke
    May 1, 2010

    Mike;

    a) you self-publish on examiner.com
    b) you reference mercury after it’s been debunked here repeatedly
    c) you have a personal sample size of 2, it seems.

    Looks like three strikes to me, thanks for playing.

  312. #313 seeking women
    August 27, 2010

    As someone with a bachelor’s degree in geology, I have found the panic over aluminum highly amusing. You understate it a bit: “clay”, technically defined, has aluminum in it. Hence, a kid who eats a mouthful of mud could easily ingest more aluminum than would be in a thousand vaccines.

  313. #314 Clay
    September 28, 2010

    Okay, I admit that while I often read this blog, I don’t always read it. I sometimes comment, but not often, because the science is usually way over my head. I regret not finding this discussion while it was taking place, because I missed out on the immediacy of it. Sort of like watching an old re-run, even though you didn’t see it the first time, it still seems old.

    However, I did find it hilarious, nonetheless, and I shall breathlessly wait to find out (next month?) just what earth-shattering news will overtake us like a freight train. Warmest regards to Calli Arcale, (who is always a delight to read) and everyone else who took on this extremely arrogant, vulgar, obnoxious person who thinks he is “Smarter Than You”. He’s no such thing.

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