It’s rare that I encounter a bit of nonsense that allows me to deploy two of my favorite rhetorical devices. First, it lets me pull out one of my favorite clips from one of my favorite movies, in which the immortal line, “Help! Help! I’m being repressed!” was first uttered. Second, it lets me repeat once again yet another variation of Inigo Montoya’s immortal words. It’s a two-fer! Not surprisingly, it’s courtesy of the anti-vaccine crank blog we’ve all come to know and love (well, I love it because it has provided me such a target-rich environment for taking on quackery and woo, although I hate it because, well, it promotes anti-vaccine quackery and woo). Yes, we’re talkin’ Age of Autism, and this time it’s Katie Wright crying repression and censorship in a little screed she called Sebelius Asks Media to Censor Autism Debate.

“Censor.” You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I’ll show you why. First, let’s look at what provoked Wright’s little bit of willful misinterpretation:

There are groups out there that insist that vaccines are responsible for a variety of problems, despite all scientific evidence to the contrary. We (the office of Secretary of Health and Human Services) have reached out to media outlets to try to get them not to give the views of these people equal weight in their reporting.


Apparently this came from a Readers Digest article in which Kathleen Sebelius, Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, was being interviewed about H1N1. During that interview, she was asked what could be done about the public mistrust of vaccines. Reality-based regular readers of this blog (as opposed to some of the anti-vaccine extremists out there who monitor this locale to see what the “other side” is up to) would almost certainly find nothing objectionable in what Sebelius said at all. Indeed, time and time again, I myself have complained about the lazy “tell both sides” imperative so many journalists seem to consider absolutlely essential, an imperative that leads to journalistic atrocities in which for every story about vaccines, an anti-vaccine loon (often from Generation Rescue) has to be interviewed to give “the other side”) or for every story about teaching evolution in public school science classes, a creationist loon has to be interviewed to give “the other side.” The point, of course, is that, when it comes to certain manufactroversies, no matter how without a basis in science the crank side is, somehow journalists feel compelled to include a crank on equal footing with scientists, be it for controversy or to tug at the heartstrings with the case of a parent struggling to raise a severely autistic child and blaming vaccines for the child’s plight. It’s good to see that Sebelius actually understands what’s wrong with so much medical and science journalism today.

Katie Wright, on the other hand, clearly does not. Oh, man, she doesn’t understand:

That’s right. Kathleen Sebelius, the Secretary of HHS, has asked newspapers, magazines, television journalists, who knows who else- specifically NOT to listen to parents and scientists in the autism community, not to respect their concerns, not to take seriously the condition of chronically ill children with autism and to disregard a growing body of evidence questioning the safety of our infant and toddlers’ immunization schedule.

It never ceases to amaze me how talented various AoA denizens are at constructing straw men. Indeed, truly has Wright constructed a straw man of sufficient size and bulk that it could easily be used for a Burning Man ceremony with the flames of burning stupid consuming all. Or maybe Wright is prepping for yet another remake of the 1973 horror cult classic The Wicker Man, with reason and science in the role of the hapless policeman who blunders into the mysterious isle in the Hebrides looking for a missing girl. (You’ll know what I mean if you’ve seen the movie; if you haven’t, click on its title.) In any case, Sebelius said nothing of the sort. She simply said that reporters should not give equal weight to the views of anti-vaccine loons, not that they shouldn’t listen to parents. Also note the clever coopting of terms. She conflates the anti-vaccine movement (although, of course, she would not call it that) with “parents and scientists in the autism community.” You hear that, those of you with autistic children who accept the science and don’t buy into the pseudoscience claiming that vaccines cause autism? You aren’t part of the “autism community.” Or so it would seem, if Wright’s tone is any indication. Sebelius isn’t urging anyone to disregard anything. She’s simply urging media outlets to be a bit more responsible in how they pair the fear mongering cranks with real scientists.

But if you thought Wright was prepping for a remake of The Wicker Man with her introduction, you ain’t seen nothing yet. Apparently in the remake of the movie, an army of wicker men, alight with the fires of burning stupid, overrun the earth in a Blitzkrieg action, searing all intelligence from the face of the earth as they march. At least, that’s the only explanation I can think of for this bit of hyperbole:

I am taking Ms. Sebelius at her word. Ms. Sebelius has unilaterally said that she knows that every single American parent who saw their child regress post vaccination or experience a severe adverse reaction is wrong and she knows better.

Uh, no. Sebelius said nothing of the sort. She simply asked the media to stop giving equal time to pseudoscience. Her words have no force other than that of a Cabinet secretary; they do not have the force of law. It’s also highly unlikely the media will listen, unfortunately. Not that any of that stops Wright from turning the paranoia and anti-government hysteria up to 11:

Ms. Sebelius has ordered, suggested, beseeched, implored (?) American journalists NOT to “give these people (anyone concerned with vaccine safety) equal weight in their reporting” because she has decided by informal governmental decree that the debate is closed?

Sounds like something that would happen in a communist dictatorship, right? Was there a similar decree when “citizen dissidents” questioned the safety of hormone replacement therapy for women? Was the media instructed to ignore those nuisances who were suspicious of a long denied link between hormone therapy and breast cancer? Did the HHS order a first amendment crackdown of those trouble-making women who had long complained that Fibromalgia was a real disease and not a psychosomatic condition. Menaces everywhere who dared to question medical authorities! They must be silenced! You have got to be kidding.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about Wright with the allusions to a communist dictatorship. I suppose I should be grateful for small favors in that she at least managed to refrain from likening Sebelius to Hitler or Goebbels or some Nazi official shutting down any dissent in Germany during the Nazi regime. It must have taken great restraint on Wright’s part to control herself, as I strongly suspect that she must have really, really wanted to play the Hitler card.

The rest of Wright’s rant is a repetition of frequent anti-vaccine talking points that we’ve all heard a million times before. They aren’t sufficiently interesting or different for me to bother with them, as I’ve dealt with their ilk more times than I can count anymore, and I don’t happen to be in the mood right now to do it again. What I’m more in the mood for is to point out how Wright’s little rant is of a piece with virtually every other form of crankery, pseudoscience, and quackery in that she is crying “persecution” and whining that the pseudoscience she believes in is being “suppressed,” using Sebelius’ reasonable complaint about the press as a jumping off point to do so. And the similarity hits home when she decides to go full mental jacket on Poul Thorsen, parrotting the latest anti-vaccine smear machine designed to distract from the recent ruling from the Autism Omnibus and then cranking it up beyond 11 to 12, 13, 14, 15, even 20. Oh, hell, she’s even taking it to arguably libelous extremes:

It is absolutely frightening that a wanted felon has such an enormous and pervasive influence on the lives of our children.

So I am trying to get this straight Ms. Sebelius. Help me out here. We should take lying thieves with no interest in operating in the public’s interest at their word but the media should ignore parents and legitimate scientists who question the validity of vaccine science research performed by alleged criminals? I’m really confused!

The crazy is strong in this one, Luke.

As I’ve pointed out, Thorsen was at best a minor co-author in the Danish study that forms but a part of the body of evidence exonerating thimerosal-containing vaccines as a cause of autism, and it’s not even clear that he did anything wrong yet. Given the track record of AoA, the more they attack Thorsen, the more I wonder if he even did anything wrong. However the attack on Thorsen reminded me of something I saw earlier. This something was a perfect case of crank magnetism in the form of a post on a different home of pseudoscience, specifically the pseudoscience known as evolution denial or creationism. Bruce Chapman of the Discovery institute opines:

Do you still contend that scientists are a breed apart, a superior species that should hold others, mere mortals, in awe? Then please digest the latest scandal about money, greed and “science”, and this time keep in your mind’s eye the thousands, maybe millions, of infants that are affected by autism. It is their welfare that must now come into focus.

Won’t somebody think of the children? Actually, “intelligent design” is about the children–corrupting the children’s scientific education that is. Chapman also seems to think that challenging the Danish studies might mean that the science showing that vaccines do not cause autism should come into disrepute and that that might mean that vaccines might actually cause autism, just as creationists think that if they can discredit one major study about evolution it means that they’ve falsified evolution:

Danish scientist Paul Thorsen has disappeared, apparently, along with a couple million dollars of U.S. public money and some of the data that formed the basis for studies in which he participated. Now those enormously influential studies–supposedly disproving any connection between mercury and autism–are coming into question, and deservedly so.

Why deservedly so? Here’s a word of advice for Mr. Chapman: Stick to evolution. You still embarrass the hell out of yourself every time you opine about ID, but you have just embarrassed yourself even more. In fact, I wonder if someone pointed that out to him. His post originally had this ending:

Maybe the studies were valid. By all means, let’s find out. In fact, a thorough and independent public investigation is imperative. Since the Center for Disease Control’s money was involved, surely the CDC should not be the only body looking into this matter. Meanwhile, tell us again why scientists who dissent from the “consensus” in this scientific field, or any other, must be silenced.

Note the ending in the current version of the post, which has been watered down. I prefer the original because it shows very much how the mindset of creationists is very much like the mindset of anti-vaccine zealots. Both want to paint themselves as “dissenters” rather than cranks. Both want to tear down scientists, because it is science itself that stands in the way of the acceptance of their beliefs. Discredit scientists, they think, and they can discredit the science. It never occurs to them that science is more than any single scientist and that discrediting a scientist does not necessarily discredit the science unless one can show scientific fraud. Not that cranks don’t try. Indeed, the most recent egregious example is the hype surrounding the e-mails from climate scientists stolen through hacking. It’s what I like to call the “vindication of all kooks” corollary to crank magnetism.

I’ve mentioned this before, but the difference between cranks and real scientists is how much cranks personalize their beliefs. They don’t realize that science is a process, a methodology, not a set of conclusions. They also can’t seem to understand that what science tells us is not purely a belief or set of beliefs; it is a set of conclusions based on observation and experimentation that are continually updated and adjusted as new evidence comes in. In contrast, the beliefs of anti-vaccinationists or creationists, for example, never change their core beliefs, which are that vaccines are evil and cause autism and that evolution is evil and wrong, respectively. Nothing, no amount of evidence, no amount of science will change those core beliefs. To them all science, particularly any mechanism of science that exists to weed out bad science (such as peer review), is “repression” or “censorship.” Any scientific consensus is a conspiracy, “repression,” and/or “censorship. The reason is simple. It’s because science tells denialists that they are wrong and to them that’s censorship.

ADDENDUM: Remember how I (sort of) congratulated Wright for refraining from playing the Hitler card? Naturally, it turns out that at least one of the commenters on AoA is not so “restrained”:

Keep speaking up and being in community. We may have to continue to haul this load on our own longer. Oppression can be tough and that is what this is, oppression, with parents of Autism being like the French Resistance during WWII. I believe the truth will prevail.

Because the scientific community is just like the Nazi occupation and AoA’s brave maverick resistance is just like the French Resistance. I wonder if there is a word for such a delusion.

Comments

  1. #1 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    Well, this has been fun, I have to go because I’m flying out shortly to interview a PhD in Toxicology this weekend…what are you guys upto beside google searching?

  2. #2 Smarter Than You
    March 18, 2010

    ORAC I have to give you some credit…I would have banned me a long time ago. However, I do speak the truth, I just need to present it a little friendlier. Don’t worry though I’m leaving for the weekend so I will be silenced that way.

  3. #3 Ian
    March 18, 2010

    Connect 4 tournament. Sure I can’t interest you in a quick game?

    Don’t ban STY Orac, he’s harmless and amusing. Like a dog who thinks it’s people.

  4. #4 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    Sometimes Paul Offit will comment here. I wonder if he remembers some strange guy interviewing him. Since he has had some very real death threats, I assume he is very careful when he meets people he does not know. This is why he does not do book tours.

  5. #5 jen
    March 18, 2010

    nice try, Chris. Smarter Than You just smoked you guys and now you try and make him out to be a danger to Paul Offit. Pathetic.
    I do think that Orac shows alot of class for not barring comments. Freedom of speech is alive and well.

  6. #6 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    I did not imply that the person who posts long vitriolic and insulting posts would be a danger to anyone, just that I doubted that someone would agree to meet with him.

  7. #7 Scientizzle
    March 18, 2010

    Something has been in the making since 2004 that is going to make many dead people roll over in their graves. It will be completed by about October/November 2010, but it may be a little bit after that when you all become very familiar with it. But once you do, you will all finally see where you went wrong, because you most certainly have, and even the worst of the worst of them, such as Paul Offit, will even finally acknowledge just how wrong he was once and for all. Don’t get me wrong here though, I’m not saying vaccines are the culprit. And why do I withhold this from the rest of society? Because until it is complete people such as yourselves could not possibly understand it.

    Is the Time Cube guy investigating thimerosal now?

    Allow me to register my excitement for some random internet troll’s mysterious and nigh-incomprehensible research, yet to be completed, that may take even longer to release in whatever undoubtedly-legitimate publication, that will set the world straight once and for all!

    I’m actually sitting on the edge of my seat as I type this!

  8. #8 Science Mom
    March 18, 2010

    I don’t know Scientizzle, STY said:

    …and no it’s not the monkey study, and no it’s not some paper that claims mercury causes autism…in fact it’s not a study or experiment or literature at all.

    So, I don’t know, perhaps s/he will present this in the form of a performance art piece?

  9. #9 jen
    March 18, 2010

    Chris, you most certainly did imply that Smarter Than You could be dangerous. If you meant you doubted that someone like Paul Offit would speak with him you would have used alot different wording. Besides being vitriolic and insulting he actually had alot of good points to make about thimerosal.

  10. #10 Jake Crosby
    March 18, 2010

    I know I’ve wasted my time on here already, and won’t go into detail because no amount of science will convince any of you, nor has it, but I just want to take apart this point:

    “Any scientific consensus is a conspiracy, “repression,” and/or “censorship.” The reason is simple. It’s because science tells denialists that they are wrong and to them that’s censorship.”

    You are wrong, for there to be a consensus, government, industry and consumer all have to concur. In this case, only two of those parties, government and industry, are with you, consumer is not. Even basic charities like Autism Speaks do not agree with your views. Even people who’ve served in high leadership positions in public health don’t agree with you, and acknowledge that government has been outright dismissive of this issue no matter what the results would be, and that has been evident already.

    The bottom line: there is no scientific consensus, that government and industry which are practically interchangeable agree does not make it so, much less that their stance is true, and all the tobacco science they crank out won’t change that.

  11. #11 Science Mom
    March 18, 2010

    In this case, only two of those parties, government and industry, are with you, consumer is not. Even basic charities like Autism Speaks do not agree with your views. Even people who’ve served in high leadership positions in public health don’t agree with you,…

    No Jake, make that just Katie Wright and Bernadine Healy (avid supporter of tobacco science). And that agreement means nothing for it’s based upon opinion, not facts. Do they have any evidence to support their opinions Jake? Do you?

  12. #12 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    jen:

    Besides being vitriolic and insulting he actually had alot of good points to make about thimerosal.

    Except, as was pointed out: they were all wrong. You have been asked direct questions about some of these facts, but have failed to produce any answers, and no real evidence.

    He claimed that thimerosal was still in pediatric vaccines after 2001, and it was pointed out that the influenza vaccine is available without thimerosal.

    Now, here is a question that I have asked around, and perhaps even to you. I know I have not been given an answer, and I don’t think anyone has even tried to answer it. In 2001 Sallie Bernard put in a request for DTaP vaccines that still contained thimerosal for a study. That was for Burbacher’s primate study, and since he had to add thimerosal to the vaccine I can assume they never found any. Here is the post (straight cut and paste):

    * Subject: Thimerosal DTaP Needed
    * From: Sally Bernard
    * Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:01:50 -0400
    * Yahoo! Message Number: 27456
    * Onibasu Link: http://onibasu.com/archives/am/27456.html

    Hi all:

    A group of university-based researchers needs several vials of the older
    DTaP vaccine formulations which contained thimerosal for a legitimate
    research study. If anyone knows an MD who might have some of these
    vaccines or knows where to get them, please email me privately.

    Thank you.

    Sallie Bernard
    Executive Director
    Safe Minds

    …………………………..

    So if thimerosal was still a problem in pediatric vaccines in 2001, why was Sallie Bernard asking for help locating the stuff?

    By the way, even if you think that I claimed STY is dangerous when I was pointing out that someone who gets death threats would be cautious… I don’t care. Personally I believe that STY is actually delusional and all of his “interviews” were only with the voices in his own head.

  13. #13 jen
    March 18, 2010

    Chris, his points were not all proven wrong. I will let his last post stand. (#199). I have no idea about Sallie Bernard’s vaccine request.

  14. #14 young skeptic
    March 18, 2010

    “I have no idea about Sallie Bernard’s vaccine request.”

    Amazing how you refuse to comment on something you have a small knowledge base on when it disagrees with your world view but have no problem lending credence to the most ridiculous statements when they coincide with it.

  15. #15 The Gregarious Misanthrope
    March 18, 2010

    @jen

    You are wrong about Chris. He called STY “strange” [understatement]. He said Offitt receives death threats and assumes he is careful whom he meets. You have assumed Reeses Cups even though the peanut butter and chocolate remained separate.

    D+

  16. #16 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    Typical evidence free response. His post #199 said:

    however everyone also knows it was not recalled and backstock lasted until at least 2002 but nobody really knows the exact date. I have personally seen many mercury loaded childhood vaccines with an expiration date of 2004, hence the 2004.

    And yet, there is real evidence that Sallie Bernard, the executive director of SafeMinds, could not find vaccines with thimerosal in 2001!

    What part of that do you not understand?

  17. #17 Broken Link
    March 18, 2010

    I’m kind of wondering if SMY is here for a purpose. He keeps all us science types (you know, the ones who can actually mount a coherent argument with facts and peer reviewed literature on their side) occupied while we ignore the mainstream media, where all SMY’s buddies are commenting like crazy.

    I guess I’m making a long-winded argument that SMY is a troll. We should be out there making the science-based points with the public. The people who actually count, unlike SMY, with xis/xer borderline psychotic rants.

  18. #18 Marc
    March 18, 2010

    I hope Smarter Than You and his many troll impostors come back and continue their civil war. It’s also funny how each one was accusing the other of using false evidence and then “disproving” it with more false evidence. They were also Bushly illiterate and paragraphically challenged. I will miss these trolls if they’re gone for good.

    http://bookreviewsbybobbie.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/troll.jpg

  19. #19 Fuzzzone
    March 18, 2010

    Fear not, Marc. This was not the first appearance of Smarter Than You, and I suspect it will not be the last.

  20. #20 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    I will actually admit, Smarter Than You made some good points that we couldn’t challenge. I’m not sure he is really as full of it as I first thought he/she/it was.

  21. #21 Ian
    March 18, 2010

    Yeah he/she/it really blew Calli away with 199

  22. #22 Pablo
    March 18, 2010

    (real Pablo here)

    Orac – impersonating other posters is certainly a ban-able offense, yes?

  23. #23 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    Yeah, sure… the verbal diarrhea of #199 was classic troll phenotype. No breaks, going from topic to topic and the argument by blatant assertion.

    So is impersonating other people.

  24. #24 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    Though to be fair, it could be another “Chris.” For the record I use “s/he/it”, which is a holdover from Usenet days.

  25. #25 Orac
    March 18, 2010

    Orac – impersonating other posters is certainly a ban-able offense, yes?

    Yes, entirely at my discretion. So, STY, cut it out or you’re out of here. And before you start whining that I’m being unfair, the others who “impersonated” you made it very obvious that it wasn’t you and that they were making fun of you.

  26. #26 Katharine
    March 18, 2010

    I almost have to ask three things:

    1) What does DumberThanPrettyMuchEverybodyElse do for a living,
    2) Does he/she have children with autism, and
    3) Why isn’t he/she taking his/her meds?

  27. #27 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    You mean that STY is not “flying out shortly to interview a PhD in Toxicology this weekend.” ?

  28. #28 Katharine
    March 18, 2010

    I challenge Dumbarse to explain why the vast majority of the vaccinated – which is a sizeable majority in this country, above 90% (but unfortunately dropping) suffer no sequelae from vaccination.

  29. #29 SisterMaryLoquacious
    March 18, 2010

    my previous comment from last night seems to have become lost in the shuffle, and buried beneath all of STY’s rants….

    could someone please enlighten me: what is a “poe?”

  30. #30 Chris
    March 18, 2010

    A Poe usually applies to religion, but it fits with many anti-vax, 9/11 conspiracy theorists, homeopaths and others because their devotion is close to fundamentalism. But here is the definition at Rationalwiki:

    Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won’t mistake for the real thing.

  31. #31 SisterMaryLoquacious
    March 18, 2010

    thanks chris!

    sooooooo true.

  32. #32 NJ
    March 18, 2010

    Sister Mary, from Wikipedia:

    Poe’s law (religious fundamentalism) — “Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humour, it is impossible to create a parody of fundamentalism that someone won’t mistake for the real thing.” named after Nathan Poe who formulated it on christianforums.com in 2005. Although it originally referred to creationism, the scope later widened to religious fundamentalism.

    The concept was been completely generalized now, so that any poster who is around the bend mistaken on any topic is considered as possibly being a parodist, causing someone to ask “Poe?”

  33. #33 SisterMaryLoquacious
    March 18, 2010

    thanks, NJ. obviously i’m not up to snuff on recent internet lingo- i spent most of the last six years or so without the internet, in places where most people would have chopped off an appendage to have the chance to vaccinate their children against polio, measles, mumps, typhoid, etc…

    shit, it’s a wonder i haven’t dropped DEAD, what with all the vaccinations i’ve had in the last few years… 😉

  34. #34 Otto
    March 18, 2010

    “You mean that STY is not ‘flying out shortly to interview a PhD in Toxicology this weekend.’ ?”

    I’ve heard that Plateau Sigma has been working on setting up connecting service.

  35. #35 Chris
    March 19, 2010

    Otto, I had to look it up. 😉

  36. #36 jccjd
    March 19, 2010

    STY = Tom Cruise? More couch-jumping come November?

  37. #37 a-non
    March 19, 2010

    This is not Pharyngula.

    Oh, snap.

    Serious point #1 – while I understand the HHS rationale for issuing the statment regarding anti-vaccine cranks and the media, all it does if feed the conspiracy. Now the media can report on the attempts of the government to “silence” the disease promoters. Remeber the old adage about how any publicity is good publicity.

    Serious point #2 – STY is all sorts of crazy.

  38. #38 historygeek
    March 19, 2010

    i think in october the discover institute and AOA are going to join forces against the evil that is reality i think i read that somewhare in the wall of text. personally i can’t wait that is a lot of delusion. should be intresting. as to be repressed talk to an ethopain about what happens when u don’t go along with the goverment line they arrest torture u for a few months put u before the kangroo court and a few months later shoot u. that is goverment censor ship just to review terms

  39. #39 Kristen
    March 19, 2010

    @195
    Callie
    Thank you for your smack down of STY. I was going to ask someone to list the reasons he was so wrong. I am pretty new to all of this and, unfortunately I totally know how parents are taken in with these types of arguments. His use of profanity is probably very appealing to confused and angry parents. It is easy to think ‘this guy is fighting the system for us’.

    To make it completely clear; I know he is full of it.

  40. #40 jen
    March 19, 2010

    Kristin: SMY smacked her right back. You sound like you’re trying to convince yourself.

  41. #41 a-non
    March 19, 2010

    Oh yeah, one additional comment:

    Jen, if by “Smarter Than You just smoked you guys” you mean “Smarter Than You is a flaming loon”, then I agree. And the fact that you think this individual is making good points illustrates the general unhingedness of anti-vaxers.

    I expect J.B. Handley or Jay Gordon to show up any minute now to concur with STY’s ranting.

  42. #42 Science Mom
    March 19, 2010

    Kristin: SMY smacked her right back. You sound like you’re trying to convince yourself.

    I actually think Kristen pegged you and your type, jen. You are more enamoured with the aggressiveness and sheer volume of ‘sciency’-sounding bits than you are with actual content, which was remarkably devoid of any accuracy. Go ahead and hitch your wagon to that though and have a great trip to the Woobicon (Orac™).

  43. #43 Chris
    March 19, 2010

    jen, STY claimed there was still pediatric vaccines with thimerosal up to at least 2004. Yet, Sallie Bernard, the executive director of SafeMinds, could not find any in 2001!

    Why? Is Sallie Bernard lying in her message on the Autism-Mercury message board?

  44. #44 a-non
    March 19, 2010

    jen,

    SMY’s smack back consisted of:

    1. Assertion that there were thimerosal-containing vaccines in use as late as 2004. Other than flu shots, this would be hard to believe, as Sallie Bernard in 2001 was having to scour around trying to find thim-containing vaccines for a study.

    2. Suggesting that intramuscular injection is the same as injecting into the bloodstream, when anyone with a modicum of scientific knowledge knows that isn’t true. There is gobs of research on this topic, yet none of it was references by SMY.

    3. A complete lack of understanding of influenza vaccine uptake, and conflating it with other childhood vaccines. Flu shots aren’t required for school entry or admittance, so the uptake is far, far lower.

    4. A full and utter misinterpretation of Burbacher and Pichichero’s mercury study, if that is even the research that’s being referred to in terms of comparing methyl-mercury and ethyl-mercury. That part was so convulted I couldn’t make heads or tails of it.

    5. A bunch of ranting crazy about amalgams.

    6. Assertion that the epi studies on thimerosal-containing vaccines are bogus, without any concrete evidence that they are other than conspiracy theories.

    And a lot of other stuff, but at some point, my head started to hurt so I stopped.

    If you truly think that the volume of words SMY is putting out is a sign of intelligence, then you further the point I made in my previous post. You, like SMY, just like J.B. and Paul King and Jay Gordon and AoA and Lyn Redwood and all the rest, are subscribing to a completely loony theory with virtually no scientific evidence to back you up.

  45. #45 Ian
    March 19, 2010

    @ a-non #244: I can’t believe I’m about to do this…

    1 – just because Sallie Bernard is incompetent, that doesn’t mean the backlogs aren’t at least partially fact-based. However, even if the backlog issue was true, there would be no need TODAY to restrict vaccines, and there would have been a corresponding decrease as the surplus vaccines were used up. That is, if thimerosal had been shown conclusively to cause any side-effects, which it hasn’t.

    2 – he corrected himself and retracted that intravenous/intramuscular statement. I know it was hard to find the crouton of truth in the word salad, but it was there. Let’s not jump on the poor bastard for making a mistake that he later owned up to.

    3 – his argument was that while not compulsory, there is strong social pressure to get flu vaccines which makes them tantamount to compulsory. I don’t disagree with that – in fact normative pressure reinforces a LOT of health behaviour (exercising, eating properly, hygiene). However, there are thimerosal-free flu vaccines available, and there was a lot of media about that fact. Again, that’s only relevant if thimerosal is dangerous… which it isn’t.

    The rest of your criticisms are fair. His “smack-down” really consisted of insisting that his own personal interviews and experiments were superior to those of dozens of actual scientists worldwide, working independently and finding converging results. With zero evidence to support his claims, that’s hardly a smoking gun.

    Oh, and I see someone is posting under my name (#221). Neat, I am pleased to be visible enough to deserve impersonation. In the future, please be considerate enough to include a link to my blog (to make your counterfeit more believable, of course).

  46. #46 historygeek
    March 19, 2010

    i come at this from the art historain background and STY convinced me of 3 things he/she/it has an ego bigger then god, makes excelent use of profainties adn has a wee bit of an anger problem. callie kicked his ass nine way to sundays

    This is what i came way with STY talked to people. big deal including paul offit and that in october paul will magically reverse his position as evedance of this sea change STY offered nothing more the a profainting laced wall of texed on how smart he is and how dumb everyone else sprinkeled with “oh the childern” give me a break only true beleivers fall for that.

  47. #47 Calli Arcale
    March 19, 2010

    Ah, finally have some time on the Internet again…. And I see Smarter Than You replied! I do love me a good fisking. Alas, I am short of time, as I have a longer drive than usual to collect my children today. But I’ll give it a go anyway. Since my boldface on the last post didn’t show very well, I’ll switch to italics now to indicate STY’s content.

    Smarter Than You @ 199:
    1) No correction needed…it is common knowledge the AAP and others recommended phasing thimerosal out in 1999, however everyone also knows it was not recalled and backstock lasted until at least 2002 but nobody really knows the exact date.

    As I indicated and as you apparently agree, it is understood that backstock lasted until 2002. I am not certain how you conclude from this that it absolutely must, in the absence of data, be assumed to have lasted two years longer than that.

    I have personally seen many mercury loaded childhood vaccines with an expiration date of 2004, hence the 2004.

    Ah, that’s why. You apparently think that if something expires in 2004, it cannot be used until 2004. That’s a rather strange line of reasoning, I must say. I have a bottle of water that expires in 2012. Do you think I won’t drink it before then?

    “Mercury loaded” is, of course, a subjective term. The amount is very small.

    Again such a weak response grasping at straws.

    Well, you would know.

    However I will admit I, out of typing and thinking extremely fast used the words “directly into the bloodstream” which were misleading however the end result is the same, it ends up in the bloodstream. I should have said directly into the body without the somewhat protective mechanisms associated with the digestive system.

    I am glad you are willing to admit you misspoke; it shows rare maturity on your part. However, you follow it up with the statement that the bloodstream is equivalent to the rest of the body, a peculiar claim given that a) you earlier complained when I pointed out that the vaccine is not given intravenously (which suggests you know there’s a difference) and b) you also claim that mercury is somehow sequestered in the brain in a manner not reflected by blood mercury levels. Your assertions are contradictory; I hope you can see that.

    Also, for you to think that all the mercury has been removed and the rates are still going up is absurd. They have not removed all of the mercury, they have just shifted it all around. I would rather give a 10 or 12 pound baby a mercury loaded shot than give a pregnant women with a .5 pound developing fetus a shot, or better yet two shots with 25 mcg in it.

    Even assuming that every last bit of thimerosal in a flu shot taken from a multi-dose vial goes directly to the fetus (rather that being distributed around the woman’s body, which again would contradict your assertion that the bloodstream and the muscles are interchangeable with respect to dosing and toxicity), that would leave the baby with the equivalent of a single (perhaps two, if was recently) vaccines containing Thimerosal. You seriously think that two adult flu vaccines are equivalent, in terms of mercury, to the entire childhood vaccine schedule?

    No, they are not merely “shifting it around”. The total amount, even if you assume all of the thimerosal from maternal flu vaccines enters the child, is considerably less than it used to be.

    Are you kidding me, you actually think the rate will reduce when we are now giving 50 mcg of mercury to all pregnant women in the regular flu shot and swine flu shot? You are crazy!

    Two points bear mention: 1) not all pregnant women will receive either shot, let alone both, and 2) even if they do, it’s still way less thimerosal. You should expect to see *some* effect on the autism rate. We haven’t. You have made no attempt to explain that; instead, you’d rather spout vulgarities.

    And that is about the only thing I do hear from you people because you know your epidemiology studies are so flawed you can’t reference them anymore. You all know this and that is why you grab onto the idiotic claim that mercury has been removed and the rates keep going up. Do you know that the latest CDC rate of 1 in 110 was based on 8 year olds in 2006. This means these children were born in 1998, and received the fully loaded vaccines, and also in 2004 started getting the flu shots.

    You act as if this is the only data in the entire world that we have to go on. It’s not. You can look at rates of autism in unvaccinated populations (yes, they do exist, and yes, they do have autism), you can look at rates in older autistics, you can look at other countries including ones which removed thimerosal much earlier, and the data all agrees — there is no relationship between the removal of thimerosal and the rate of autism. Look at Norway. Look at the recent study of adults in the UK, which found the rate of autism (diagnosed and otherwise) was very close to the rate in children. Look at the declining rate of mental retardation; it mirrors the increase in autism. Why is that, do you suppose?

    Bullshit, read the study and this is still during a very devastating period where they were getting floored after they were born.

    There are many studies. Out of curiosity, which one are you referring to?

    And to clarify a very important fact, Doctors push these flu shots like they are giving out candy. They don’t wait for you to ask for one, that is hilarious.

    That’s an odd thing to say, given that in the first few months of flu season, it is rationed (and was rationed more heavily for 2009 H1N1 due to the lower volume of product available at the time). I’m an asthmatic, and my doctor didn’t recommend it, for me or my children, because they didn’t have enough to give out. They would only give it to people who asked for it.

    Now, there were flu clinics, and they advertised their existence. This is quite sensible; how will people know that they can come to you for a vaccine unless they have heard of you? It’s not the same thing as giving them out like candy. Perhaps your doctor is different, and has some “in” with the vaccine manufacturers allowing him/her to stock a lot more than anybody else. I wish I had your doctor.

    I had pregnant friends this year that were made to feel guilty they didn’t get one, even though the doctors didn’t even have a thimerosal free version.

    Given how many pregnant women died of H1N1 influenza this year, doctors should have been recommending it. But perhaps you think two dead bodies (mother and fetus) is better than autism?

    What research are you referring to with the half life of ethyl being 2 weeks vs. methyl 50 days?

    You also said it had a half life of 2 weeks (well, more accurately, it’s 18 days in adults and 3.7 in infants), so why are you objecting? I know you claim that somehow ethyl mercury deposits more inorganic mercury than methyl mercury, but that doesn’t makes sense. Ethyl mercury is excreted much faster than methyl mercury, which gives it far less opportunity to break down into inorganic mercury. What about this complicated to you?

    You can preach to me all day about your half life shit, but what it ultimately comes down to is how much mercury is in the brain after exposure.

    We agree on that. However, you prefer to choose figures which support your hysteria, rather than figures which are actually accurate. That’s your prerogative, but it’s not going to help you persuade anyone. Your line of argument is most suitable for self-justification, not persuasion.

    And I see you are just as dumb as Science Mom and you don’t understand the difference between “blood” and “brain”.

    And suddenly you realize that the body and the blood are not equivalent when it comes to dosing! I agree; the brain and blood are not the same (though note that both forms of organic mercury cross the blood-brain barrier easily). I’m glad you realize this. Now, could you please explain why you think muscle and blood *are* the same?

    Read my post to her.

    That’s hardly necessary.

    Your comment “Flu shots are not compulsory; children only receive them if the parents request it”, this is the most hilarious statement I have ever heard. Good one, maybe in your fantasy land this is true. Everyone knows they push they flu shots so hard, they almost beg you to get them.

    You seem to have difficulty grasping the difference between a recommendation and a requirement. I sincerely hope you do not work in engineering. The only vaccines which are compulsory are those which are on your state’s list for school admission. Influenza vaccines are not on the list, and never have been. And, barring some revolutionary advance in influenza vaccines (such as the invention of a truly generic influenza vaccine), likely won’t be.

    I’m not sure why you gave me a lesson on flu shots even though I already know all about them and who makes them. Not sure your point here, but I can assure you 94% of them contain the full 25 mcg.

    Really? If you knew all that already, why do you continue to assert that 94% of flu vaccines contain 25 mcg of thimerosal? What I posted contradicts you.

    The percentage for the swine flu is even worse.

    The swine flu vaccines contain precisely the same inactive ingredients as the regular ones; the only difference is the antigen. You do not know what you claim to know. That is obvious.

    As far as you being a Rho-gam mom, yes this is a definite category. Let me ask you a question and I would really like an honest response…are any of your children autistic? Specifically the ones you received a shot with? I have interviewed hundreds of women similar to you and I assure you Rho-gam and autism is no coincidence.

    I asked if it was an organization, not a category, since you capitalized it. But no matter.

    I am Rh-. I received RhoGAM with both of my children. One is diagnosed PDD-NOS (autism spectrum), and the other is “neurotypical”, as some put it. So from my sample of two, you can’t really draw a conclusion, (Not that it will stop you; you are clearly an expert at drawing conclusions from inadequate data.)

    I have no reason to doubt your claim that you have interviewed hundreds of women, but let me ask you something else — do you know how many RhoGAM (and equivalent) shots are given each year? Do you know how many Rh- mothers there are? Does hundreds really exceed the general population rate of autism, or are you merely seeing confirmation bias? Did you try interviewing Rh- mothers whose children are *not* autistic? I doubt that very much — your modus operandi is clearly to form a conclusion and then find evidence to support it. The opposite of science, in other words.

    And while we’re on the subject of the rhesus factor, how many Rh- mothers have you interviewed who did not receive the shot? How many dead babies have you found out about? Do you even know what Rh disease of the fetus is?

    What is your point, I don’t care how you look at it in regards to two different forms of mercury, or if you eat it or inject it, regardless this guideline is the only one used for any form and you are not supposed to get an entire lifetime of mercury exposure per this guideline in one day are you?

    Yes, it’s obvious you don’t care. You have acknowledged that blood and brain are not the same; you have acknowledged that the children are not eating the vaccine; you have acknowledged that it is ethyl mercury and not methyl mercury; you have acknowledged that ethyl mercury is cleared from the blood much faster than methyl mercury — and you still cannot understand why it may be unwise to take the EPA guidelines as an absolute predictor of autism risk?

    Also, you seem to have gone from four months worth of mercury to a lifetime of mercury exposure rather easily. That is, of course, entirely consistent with your casual approach to facts.

    Of course, there’s another point I haven’t raised before. Have you ever read about mercury poisoning? Actually, real mercury poisoning? It doesn’t result in autism. Why do you think minute amounts of ethyl mercury would cause autism, when large amounts (which do cause harm) do not cause autism?

    Moving on, do some research on aluminum and mercury. The toxic combination is not a 1 + 1 = 2. It is much much worse. This is also completely unstudied by your side which is gross negligence since they are both used together in certain vaccines.

    If it’s unstudied, what makes you think there’s an affect? Because you want there to be one, so you can have something to be righteously indignant about?

    Aluminum adjuvants (which are not used in influenza vaccines, by the way, but I’m sure you would know that if you actually had done the research you claim) are studied, and they are studied in conjunction with everything else in the vaccine. Why wouldn’t they be? What other way could a vaccine possibly be studied than by administering the actual vaccine and observing the effects?

    I’m not sure how your lesson on what thimerosal is addressed my comment that it as a solution is more toxic than ethyl mercury by itself. I have seen experiments done in laboratory on brain neurons that shows this.

    Okay, if you can’t understand the Nutrasweet/aspartame analogy, I can understand why you remain confused. (Hint: they’re the same thing.)

    I love how you use the term “safely locked away” to refer to amalgams. Ha, you are a dentist you freakin clownshow.

    Software engineer, actually. But I was working on a chemistry degree before switching majors. That’s why I know you’re full of it. I know about these things. You don’t.

    Have you every looked at an amalgam with UV and infrared paper and light and put a mercury vapor analyzer over the top. Try it sometime and gently brush the filling as if you were brushing your teeth and watch the mercury register on the analyzer. Also, you will be able to see the vapors similar to smoke off a cigarette by coincidence I’m sure.

    Ah, the classic scam. You’ve fallen for the trap laid by unscrupulous dentists who make extra money by scaring patients into having their fillings replaced. I’ve heard of those tests. They don’t reveal what you think they do.

    And just to add one thing to prove you don’t know much, the mercury in amalagams is elemental mercury, do you research. But then again it does become inorganic once it’s in the body over time just as ehtyl and methyl do.

    Well of course elemental mercury will become inorganic mercury; it’s fairly reactive. Actually, amalgam fillings contain both elemental mercury and a mercury alloy.

    The ones that think you are smarter than you actually are by using big tough words. Notice how I keep mine very simple and roll you right over anyhow. Bye Bye.

    Actually, this is how I talk normally. And I don’t think I used very many really big words. It’s definitely good that you stick to simple words, though. Given your difficulty in spelling and understanding and applying them correctly, this is probably wise on your part.

  48. #48 Dangerous Bacon
    March 19, 2010

    “The ones that think you are smarter than you actually are by using big tough words.”

    Oooh, isn’t that the truth? They’re just such meanies when they show off like that and make your head hurt trying to keep up with them!

    It’s like I always say, if you can’t make yourself plainly understood by the average five-year-old, you don’t have anything worthwhile to say. And that goes for what you hoity-toity types call the “scientific consensus”, too. If we don’t agree with your nasty science, it isn’t really science, so there.

  49. #49 Calli Arcale
    March 19, 2010

    Actually, Dangerous Bacon, while I admit I enjoyed fiskin STY’s post, it is true that if you can make yourself understood at a lower level without compromising meaning, that’s best. Were I actually attempting to educate rather than debate, I would use less big words. (Though I have to think consciously to do that; in addition to my computer science degree, I hold an English major, and so I’m kinda used to big words.)

    One need only look to my conversation with bensmyson over in the thread about Robert F Kennedy. I can respect bensmyson, even though I don’t agree with them. (Yes, for those who don’t know, it’s two people — Ben’s parents.) I have serious criticisms of their viewpoint — but not of their clear and abiding love for Ben. Common ground is precious, and I won’t give it up easily.

    STY, on the other hand, I think will never have common ground with me, or probably many other people here. He/she seems too invested in righteous indignation to actually discuss things.

  50. #50 The Gregarious Misanthrope
    March 19, 2010

    Calli,

    One of things STY brought up about the difference between ethyl- and methyl-mercury was that ethyl- was somehow converted to a form that stays in the brain much more quickly and that this made ethyl- more dangerous despite its half-life being much shorter.

    I don’t recall you addressing that specifically and I don’t much about it myself. What are your thoughts on this?

    I enjoyed reading your rebuttals.

  51. #51 Me
    March 20, 2010

    @Calli…I shouldn’t respond right now because I have to get up really early for an interview, however your responses to my last response were completely absurd and very confusing because you didn’t talk much sense and you try to spin things in ways that make me think you don’t understand my points. Maybe it’s because your simple mind really needs paragraphs to understand me so I will do that just for you:

    First off, you and I will never agree on the duration of backstock used with mercury loaded vaccines. You have no idea where you even get the 2002 figure, in fact to put an end to this subject nobody can confirm the exact date so let’s stop talking about it. It really doesn’t matter if it is 2002 or 2004 because you wouldn’t have seen a reduction in rates anyhow because of the flu shot as I have mentioned before. At least you aren’t as big of an idiot as Chris claiming his email he has from Sallie Bernard proves anything. Chris come on dude, are you serious? That was just her initial email to obtain the vaccines…she had them within 24 hours.

    Calli for you to say the amount of mercury doesn’t even compare to the mercury the children used to get is idiotic. Do you know the difference between a 14 pound baby and a .2 pound developing fetus. The effects of mercury on the latter are so devastating in the MOST critical time in the development. ANY amount of mercury exposure at this absolutely critical time in a human life will have catastrophic results. This simply can’t be argued and can’t be compared in any way to getting shots after the child is born because it’s in a completely different league of damage.

    Given you are a little slow, I will try to understand that you completely did not interpret my comments on the “directly into the bloodstream” explanation correctly. I corrected myself and said it is injected “into the body”, and I’m sorry to tell you this but whether you want to acknowledge this or not when it is injected intramuscularly it doesn’t simply sit in the muscle and hangout forever like you want to claim. Do you think the muscle is like a balloon that doesn’t release anything into the bloodstream or the cardiovascular system? You are an idiot for making this statement. Get off this one, we all know the mercury ends up in the blood so stop even talking about it moron. And one last time for you because you don’t listen, I don’t give a fuck about the mercury in the blood, it means nothing! You are confusing mercury leaving the blood with mercury actually leaving the body. It does leave the blood readily but it is going into the brain, not leaving the body! Go ahead and think the mercury in the blood is a good indication of what is in the brain, you couldn’t be more wrong. Also, just to clarify a later point of yours, i will try to speak English on this one again for you, Ethyl Mercury enters the brain and quickly converts to the inorganic form which then can’t exit the brain. This right here makes your statement of the blood levels reflecting what is going on in the brain useless. Blood levels clear relatively fast because mercury has a high affinity for fatty tissue (THE BRAIN) and it locks in and doesn’t go back to the blood. Methyl converts much slower so it can be washed in and out of the brain and into the blood and excreted from the body before it converts and locks in. Hence, the end result is more inorganic mercury in the brain from Ethyl exposures than Methyl exposures. THIS IS THE KEY YOU DUMBASS!!!! How many times do I need to tell you this. Do I need to send you Burbacher’s study that proves this? You can’t argue this one so stop trying to spin it and sound like you didn’t pay attention to what I said. This closes this argument, please acknowledge this.

    Again, I don’t care if flu shots are mandatory or not, pregnant women are getting them everywhere, TWO OF THEM. I see it everywhere and talk to everyone about it all the time. I live this shit and I see it everywhere, believe it, they are getting them because the doctors tell them they need to and unfortunately for them they are listening and severely damaging their children in the process. We can’t have a discussion on this one because we don’t have an exact stat of how many pregnant women actually get the shot, but I can assure you it is the majority, except for the women that know me. Regardless, the number of pregnant women getting flu shots now far exceeds the number when it was just the Rho-gam moms getting them, and trust me I know Rho-gam does not contain thimerosal anymore so don’t try to spin this shit.

    I will tell you one thing, I have lived Autism. I will also tell you another thing, it is worse than the worst nightmare you could ever imagine even having. It will introduce you to a world that you could never in a million years even imagine existed, and put you into a place that is a million times worse than hell. I will not respond to your comment whether it would be better to have autism or death from the swine flu itself.

    To touch on the rates, I’m not wasting my time on this one. Your big claim now is that Autism has always been 1 in 110 and there are 1 in 110 adults with Autism and it was just confused for a long time with MR. WOW, you just reached “beyond idiot, absolutely clueless” status. ARE YOU FUCKNG KIDDING ME!!! Show me the 1 in 110 adults with Autism? You will be lucky to find 1 in 5000! Are you one of those Nuerodiverse dipshits? They are the bottom of the barrel just abandoning the only hope of recovery for their children by having such rediculous beliefs that everyone is just a little neurologically diverse. I will laugh at that one all day!!! Everyone now acknowledges, even dumbfuck Insel, that Autism has an environmental component. If for one second you finally come to this conclusion, and the majority of people, even MIND, now understand this, the answer can and is only one fucking thing….MERCURY. If it’s not mercury, it will be the biggest coincidence this planet has ever seen, and whatever the culprit is would have to work identical to mercury in every single possible way.

    Rho-gam…Ok now we are getting somewhere! I knew the second you said you were a Mother and had chidren that you had a Autistic child because that would be the only reason we would be talking on here, especially once you said you were a Rho-gam Mom it all clicked. You either have autism or aspergers or you have a child with autism. In this case you have a child. This is absolutely no surprise to me at all. You not only received the Rho-gam shots, you received a flu shot when you were pregnant. I know it’s hard for some people to acknowledge this, but this was devastating to your unborn children, and don’t take it like I’m saying it’s your fault, because it absolutely isn’t. And yes you are right, the majority of Rho-gam moms I have talked to had children with Autism, and had received the shots. However, many of them had multiple children but the only child with Autism was the one that received the in-utero shot. I’ve seen this so many times I lost count. I have never seen the opposite. Not one time have I seen one of these Mothers with multiple children and the ones who received the shot were fine but the one who didn’t is Autistic. I’ve looked everywhere for this. In your case I’m guessing of your two children who received the shots, the one who is PDD-NOS is a boy? And the one who is typical is a girl? It doesn’t have to be this way but it is very common because testosterone plays a huge role in all of this. Please be honest with your answers, not that you owe it to me but it will help with our discussion. Also, which child did you receive the flu shot with, and again don’t just say what you know will be the best to make me look stupid. And yes, I do know a lot about this condition but its not important for this discussion.

    Again, yet another comment that confirms you know nothing about this…you clearly don’t understand that there is a huge difference between chronic and acute mercury toxicity. Acute toxicity is large exposures that target the kidneys, liver, etc. Chronic is what we are talking about here and your side does not have even the smallest clue about this. All traditional Western Medicine understands is Acute, and even Paul Offit talks about mercury toxicity from an acute standpoint which is a fatal fatal flaw. You simply can’t compare a one time massive exposure to mercury with slow cummulative exposures over a number of months and years. Chronic exposures target the brain, senses, central nervous system, endocrine system, oh wait…what doesn’t it target! It is absolutely devastating to those who are more susceptible and/or those that have a less ability to excrete due to low levels of sulphur based proteins such as glutathione, cysteine, and metallathione. Autistic children do not have the ability to excrete mercury. It builds and builds and eventually rolls them into the devastating world known incorrectly as Autism. It is simply mercury efflux disorder, or the inability to excrete mercury effectively.

    I can tell you every answer you have ever wanted to know in regards to the cause of Autism. Why there are 4 boys to every girl, why the entire epidemic started when it did, why the rates spiked exactly when they did, why some are born with it and others regress, why there are only 1 in 110 at this time that have it and not everyone, why the symptoms are exactly what they are, why there is a delay in onset of symptoms after the “final” exposure before they enter full blown Autism, why one child might have it but the brothers and sisters don’t, etc. etc. etc. Don’t start asking me these questions because I’m probably not going to keep responding on here because this is taking too much of my time and I can’t give all this away right now because it will all be coming out soon. I’m telling you at this point in time I have the answer to every question anyone could ask me, and you will all soon too, just be patient. Trust me having this information nearly kills me because I want more than anything on this world for this devastation to stop so not one more child has to have their life taken away.

    In regards to Aluminum and Mercury…this is an easy one, simply read the MSDS sheet directly from Merck and you will see thimerosal is not to be used with or combined with Aluminum. Yet another completely gross negligent act of the CDC. They completely disregard the EPA’s guideline for mercury exposure, and completely disregard any safety testing/clinical trials with thimerosal, and completely disregard that thimerosal and aluminum should never be used in combination. Oh wait, aluminum and thimerosal are used together in all sorts of childhood vaccines. How smart is the CDC exactly? The left hand doesn’t know what the right is doing. Besides this MSDS, ths is well known through a series of experiments but I’m not going to dig them up right now.

    Another simple response to you…if you think the thimerosal solution as a whole is the same as plain ethyl mercury I have ran out of bad names for you. Seriously? Please explain? Oh and by the way, by education I received my bachelors degree in, you guessed it, ENGINEERING. And if you took basic chemistry you should know so much more than you do.

    Listen very carefully, sometimes I don’t think you interpret the English language very well: Amalgams, when brushed lightly release vapors that you can see…do you understand that so far? When you put the mercury vapor analyzer up over the vapors it registers mercury vapors….HELLO…McFly?!?! Comprendo? This is 110% proof that amalgams are not stable like you and every dumb dentist claim. Vapors are released, they don’t have to be drilled out to be dangerous. This argument is closed.

    And lastly, I’m glad you understand amalgams are elemental mercury!!! You should have googled that one first like you do everything else.

    I have to say I was expecting much more of a challenging response from you. You are very good at trying to spin what I say or maybe you just aren’t comprehending it right because you are very confused in some of your responses. As a whole though, I am disappointed in the lack of challenge to this latest response. And just to clarify to everyone, many of the above posts are imposters and not me. Yes, I do swear a lot, however I am very intelligent in my thought processes and writing so if it is a bunch of rambline bullshit that makes no sense, it is more than likely an imposter.

    To others, Chris you are still writing dumbass shit man, quit embarrassing yourself thinking you made this huge discovery with your lame ass email from Sally Bernard. And to KathArine, I’m not even going to respond to your “challenge”, it’s more than hilarious and such a beginners question, although if you look really hard you will find the response in this post. Sorry for getting all of your panties in a bunch, however its time the truth is spoken.

    -Smarter Than You

  52. #52 Smarter Than You
    March 20, 2010

    ORAC, let my comment through…it’s important for your other readers to see my response to Calli and it’s probably one of the better debates you’ve had on your blog

  53. #53 Smarter Than You
    March 20, 2010

    @Calli…I shouldn’t respond right now because I have to get up really early for an interview, however your responses to my last response were completely absurd and very confusing because you didn’t talk much sense and you try to spin things in ways that make me think you don’t understand my points. Maybe it’s because your simple mind really needs paragraphs to understand me so I will do that just for you:

    First off, you and I will never agree on the duration of backstock used with mercury loaded vaccines. You have no idea where you even get the 2002 figure, in fact to put an end to this subject nobody can confirm the exact date so let’s stop talking about it. It really doesn’t matter if it is 2002 or 2004 because you wouldn’t have seen a reduction in rates anyhow because of the flu shot as I have mentioned before. At least you aren’t as big of an idiot as Chris claiming his email he has from Sallie Bernard proves anything. Chris come on dude, are you serious? That was just her initial email to obtain the vaccines…she had them within 24 hours.

    Calli for you to say the amount of mercury doesn’t even compare to the mercury the children used to get is idiotic. Do you know the difference between a 14 pound baby and a .2 pound developing fetus. The effects of mercury on the latter are so devastating in the MOST critical time in the development. ANY amount of mercury exposure at this absolutely critical time in a human life will have catastrophic results. This simply can’t be argued and can’t be compared in any way to getting shots after the child is born because it’s in a completely different league of damage.

    Given you are a little slow, I will try to understand that you completely did not interpret my comments on the “directly into the bloodstream” explanation correctly. I corrected myself and said it is injected “into the body”, and I’m sorry to tell you this but whether you want to acknowledge this or not when it is injected intramuscularly it doesn’t simply sit in the muscle and hangout forever like you want to claim. Do you think the muscle is like a balloon that doesn’t release anything into the bloodstream or the cardiovascular system? You are an idiot for making this statement. Get off this one, we all know the mercury ends up in the blood so stop even talking about it moron. And one last time for you because you don’t listen, I don’t give a fuck about the mercury in the blood, it means nothing! You are confusing mercury leaving the blood with mercury actually leaving the body. It does leave the blood readily but it is going into the brain, not leaving the body! Go ahead and think the mercury in the blood is a good indication of what is in the brain, you couldn’t be more wrong. Also, just to clarify a later point of yours, i will try to speak English on this one again for you, Ethyl Mercury enters the brain and quickly converts to the inorganic form which then can’t exit the brain. This right here makes your statement of the blood levels reflecting what is going on in the brain useless. Blood levels clear relatively fast because mercury has a high affinity for fatty tissue (THE BRAIN) and it locks in and doesn’t go back to the blood. Methyl converts much slower so it can be washed in and out of the brain and into the blood and excreted from the body before it converts and locks in. Hence, the end result is more inorganic mercury in the brain from Ethyl exposures than Methyl exposures. THIS IS THE KEY YOU DUMBASS!!!! How many times do I need to tell you this. Do I need to send you Burbacher’s study that proves this? You can’t argue this one so stop trying to spin it and sound like you didn’t pay attention to what I said. This closes this argument, please acknowledge this.

    Again, I don’t care if flu shots are mandatory or not, pregnant women are getting them everywhere, TWO OF THEM. I see it everywhere and talk to everyone about it all the time. I live this shit and I see it everywhere, believe it, they are getting them because the doctors tell them they need to and unfortunately for them they are listening and severely damaging their children in the process. We can’t have a discussion on this one because we don’t have an exact stat of how many pregnant women actually get the shot, but I can assure you it is the majority, except for the women that know me. Regardless, the number of pregnant women getting flu shots now far exceeds the number when it was just the Rho-gam moms getting them, and trust me I know Rho-gam does not contain thimerosal anymore so don’t try to spin this shit.

    I will tell you one thing, I have lived Autism. I will also tell you another thing, it is worse than the worst nightmare you could ever imagine even having. It will introduce you to a world that you could never in a million years even imagine existed, and put you into a place that is a million times worse than hell. I will not respond to your comment whether it would be better to have autism or death from the swine flu itself.

    To touch on the rates, I’m not wasting my time on this one. Your big claim now is that Autism has always been 1 in 110 and there are 1 in 110 adults with Autism and it was just confused for a long time with MR. WOW, you just reached “beyond idiot, absolutely clueless” status. ARE YOU FUCKNG KIDDING ME!!! Show me the 1 in 110 adults with Autism? You will be lucky to find 1 in 5000! Are you one of those Nuerodiverse dipshits? They are the bottom of the barrel just abandoning the only hope of recovery for their children by having such rediculous beliefs that everyone is just a little neurologically diverse. I will laugh at that one all day!!! Everyone now acknowledges, even dumbfuck Insel, that Autism has an environmental component. If for one second you finally come to this conclusion, and the majority of people, even MIND, now understand this, the answer can and is only one fucking thing….MERCURY. If it’s not mercury, it will be the biggest coincidence this planet has ever seen, and whatever the culprit is would have to work identical to mercury in every single possible way.

    Rho-gam…Ok now we are getting somewhere! I knew the second you said you were a Mother and had chidren that you had a Autistic child because that would be the only reason we would be talking on here, especially once you said you were a Rho-gam Mom it all clicked. You either have autism or aspergers or you have a child with autism. In this case you have a child. This is absolutely no surprise to me at all. You not only received the Rho-gam shots, you received a flu shot when you were pregnant. I know it’s hard for some people to acknowledge this, but this was devastating to your unborn children, and don’t take it like I’m saying it’s your fault, because it absolutely isn’t. And yes you are right, the majority of Rho-gam moms I have talked to had children with Autism, and had received the shots. However, many of them had multiple children but the only child with Autism was the one that received the in-utero shot. I’ve seen this so many times I lost count. I have never seen the opposite. Not one time have I seen one of these Mothers with multiple children and the ones who received the shot were fine but the one who didn’t is Autistic. I’ve looked everywhere for this. In your case I’m guessing of your two children who received the shots, the one who is PDD-NOS is a boy? And the one who is typical is a girl? It doesn’t have to be this way but it is very common because testosterone plays a huge role in all of this. Please be honest with your answers, not that you owe it to me but it will help with our discussion. Also, which child did you receive the flu shot with, and again don’t just say what you know will be the best to make me look stupid. And yes, I do know a lot about this condition but its not important for this discussion.

    Again, yet another comment that confirms you know nothing about this…you clearly don’t understand that there is a huge difference between chronic and acute mercury toxicity. Acute toxicity is large exposures that target the kidneys, liver, etc. Chronic is what we are talking about here and your side does not have even the smallest clue about this. All traditional Western Medicine understands is Acute, and even Paul Offit talks about mercury toxicity from an acute standpoint which is a fatal fatal flaw. You simply can’t compare a one time massive exposure to mercury with slow cummulative exposures over a number of months and years. Chronic exposures target the brain, senses, central nervous system, endocrine system, oh wait…what doesn’t it target! It is absolutely devastating to those who are more susceptible and/or those that have a less ability to excrete due to low levels of sulphur based proteins such as glutathione, cysteine, and metallathione. Autistic children do not have the ability to excrete mercury. It builds and builds and eventually rolls them into the devastating world known incorrectly as Autism. It is simply mercury efflux disorder, or the inability to excrete mercury effectively.

    I can tell you every answer you have ever wanted to know in regards to the cause of Autism. Why there are 4 boys to every girl, why the entire epidemic started when it did, why the rates spiked exactly when they did, why some are born with it and others regress, why there are only 1 in 110 at this time that have it and not everyone, why the symptoms are exactly what they are, why there is a delay in onset of symptoms after the “final” exposure before they enter full blown Autism, why one child might have it but the brothers and sisters don’t, etc. etc. etc. Don’t start asking me these questions because I’m probably not going to keep responding on here because this is taking too much of my time and I can’t give all this away right now because it will all be coming out soon. I’m telling you at this point in time I have the answer to every question anyone could ask me, and you will all soon too, just be patient. Trust me having this information nearly kills me because I want more than anything on this world for this devastation to stop so not one more child has to have their life taken away.

    In regards to Aluminum and Mercury…this is an easy one, simply read the MSDS sheet directly from Merck and you will see thimerosal is not to be used with or combined with Aluminum. Yet another completely gross negligent act of the CDC. They completely disregard the EPA’s guideline for mercury exposure, and completely disregard any safety testing/clinical trials with thimerosal, and completely disregard that thimerosal and aluminum should never be used in combination. Oh wait, aluminum and thimerosal are used together in all sorts of childhood vaccines. How smart is the CDC exactly? The left hand doesn’t know what the right is doing. Besides this MSDS, ths is well known through a series of experiments but I’m not going to dig them up right now.

    Another simple response to you…if you think the thimerosal solution as a whole is the same as plain ethyl mercury I have ran out of bad names for you. Seriously? Please explain? Oh and by the way, by education I received my bachelors degree in, you guessed it, ENGINEERING. And if you took basic chemistry you should know so much more than you do.

    Listen very carefully, sometimes I don’t think you interpret the English language very well: Amalgams, when brushed lightly release vapors that you can see…do you understand that so far? When you put the mercury vapor analyzer up over the vapors it registers mercury vapors….HELLO…McFly?!?! Comprendo? This is 110% proof that amalgams are not stable like you and every dumb dentist claim. Vapors are released, they don’t have to be drilled out to be dangerous. This argument is closed.

    And lastly, I’m glad you understand amalgams are elemental mercury!!! You should have googled that one first like you do everything else.

    I have to say I was expecting much more of a challenging response from you. You are very good at trying to spin what I say or maybe you just aren’t comprehending it right because you are very confused in some of your responses. As a whole though, I am disappointed in the lack of challenge to this latest response. And just to clarify to everyone, many of the above posts are imposters and not me. Yes, I do swear a lot, however I am very intelligent in my thought processes and writing so if it is a bunch of rambline bullshit that makes no sense, it is more than likely an imposter.

    To others, Chris you are still writing dumbass shit man, quit embarrassing yourself thinking you made this huge discovery with your lame ass email from Sally Bernard. And to KathArine, I’m not even going to respond to your “challenge”, it’s more than hilarious and such a beginners question, although if you look really hard you will find the response in this post. Sorry for getting all of your panties in a bunch, however its time the truth is spoken.

  54. #54 a-non
    March 20, 2010

    @245:

    As per flu vaccine uptake: only about a third of children under 18 got the swine flu vaccine as of late-January. Only about half of kids under two get the seasonal flu vaccine, and uptake drops of dramatically after that.

    So even if there is “pressure” for parents to vaccinate their children for influenza, the reality is that a large number of parents don’t.

  55. #55 Chris
    March 20, 2010

    STY:

    That was just her initial email to obtain the vaccines…she had them within 24 hours.

    Liar. If she had some, then Burbacher would not have had to add thimerosal to the vaccines he used in his primate study.

  56. #56 Science Mom
    March 20, 2010

    First off, you and I will never agree on the duration of backstock used with mercury loaded vaccines. You have no idea where you even get the 2002 figure, in fact to put an end to this subject nobody can confirm the exact date so let’s stop talking about it. It really doesn’t matter if it is 2002 or 2004 because you wouldn’t have seen a reduction in rates anyhow because of the flu shot as I have mentioned before.

    You may want to do some review before making statements like this. Because it can be confirmed: http://www.bloomingtonalternative.com/f/weldon_FDA_thimerosal.pdf Additionally, only 2% of TCV’s were still around in February 2002 per surveys of hundreds of paediatric practises. Flu vaccine uptake by pregnant women is only ~13% on average and uptake by children less than 3 years old is also low: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/coveragelevels.htm Children less than 3 are required to receive thimerosal-free influenza vaccines and pregnant women are also preferentially partitioned thimerosal-free influenza vaccines. Since the stocks of thimerosal-free influenza vaccines have been steadily increasing and are ~86% now, there are surpluses. So your claim has fallen flat, yet again. Let the profanities commence.

    At least you aren’t as big of an idiot as Chris claiming his email he has from Sallie Bernard proves anything. Chris come on dude, are you serious? That was just her initial email to obtain the vaccines…she had them within 24 hours.

    And you would be completely and utterly wrong. From the aforementioned Burbacher et al. study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280342/?tool=pubmed

    Seventeen infant monkeys assigned to the thimerosal group were given the typical schedule of vacccines for human infants (Table 1). Thimerosal (Omicron Quimica S.A., Barcelona, Spain), dissolved in saline, was mixed with thimerosal-free vaccines to yield a final concentration of 4, 8, or 20 μg/kg was chosen baed on the range of estimated doses received by human infants receiving vaccines during the first 6 months of life.

    That seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through if they had the TCVs at their disposal as you claim.

    Rho-gam…Ok now we are getting somewhere!

    Thimerosal-free since prior to April, 2001.

    In regards to Aluminum and Mercury…this is an easy one, simply read the MSDS sheet directly from Merck and you will see thimerosal is not to be used with or combined with Aluminum.

    Please do share this. Another evidence-free screed of epic proportions. Please provide some supporting evidence.

  57. #57 Chris
    March 20, 2010

    From the SafeMinds funded Burbacher paper:

    Seventeen infant monkeys assigned to the thimerosal group were given the typical schedule of vaccines for human infants (Table 1). Thimerosal (Omicron Quimica S.A., Barcelona, Spain), dissolved in saline, was mixed with thimerosal-free vaccines to yield a final concentration of 4, 8, or 20 μg/mL Hg,
    depending on the vaccine and the age of the infant

  58. #58 Marc
    March 20, 2010

    This is still going on? Wow I thought it would be over lol. STY really has a lot of free time.

  59. #59 jenbphillips
    March 20, 2010

    Ah, STY, darlin;

    Hence, the end result is more inorganic mercury in the brain from Ethyl exposures than Methyl exposures. THIS IS THE KEY YOU DUMBASS!!!! How many times do I need to tell you this. Do I need to send you Burbacher’s study that proves this?

    No need! It’s free via PubMed. Perhaps this quote from Burbacher would be of interest to you (I bolded the text):

    A much lower brain concentration of total Hg was observed in the thimerosal monkeys compared with the MeHg monkeys, that is, a 3- to 4-fold difference for an equivalent exposure of Hg. Moreover, total Hg is cleared much more rapidly from the brain after thimerosal than after MeHg exposure (24 vs. 60 days).

    hmmmmmm…..

    You can’t argue this one so stop trying to spin it and sound like you didn’t pay attention to what I said. This closes this argument, please acknowledge this.

    You first, STY.

  60. #60 Science Mom
    March 20, 2010

    First off, you and I will never agree on the duration of backstock used with mercury loaded vaccines. You have no idea where you even get the 2002 figure, in fact to put an end to this subject nobody can confirm the exact date so let’s stop talking about it. It really doesn’t matter if it is 2002 or 2004 because you wouldn’t have seen a reduction in rates anyhow because of the flu shot as I have mentioned before.

    You may want to do some review before making statements like this. Because it can be confirmed: http://www.bloomingtonalternative.com/f/weldon_FDA_thimerosal.pdf Additionally, only 2% of TCV’s were still around in February 2002 per surveys of hundreds of paediatric practises. Flu vaccine uptake by pregnant women is only ~13% on average and uptake by children less than 3 years old is also low: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/coveragelevels.htm Children less than 3 are required to receive thimerosal-free influenza vaccines and pregnant women are also preferentially partitioned thimerosal-free influenza vaccines. Since the stocks of thimerosal-free influenza vaccines have been steadily increasing and are ~86% now, there are surpluses. So your claim has fallen flat, yet again. Let the profanities commence.

    At least you aren’t as big of an idiot as Chris claiming his email he has from Sallie Bernard proves anything. Chris come on dude, are you serious? That was just her initial email to obtain the vaccines…she had them within 24 hours.

    And you would be completely and utterly wrong. From the aforementioned Burbacher et al. study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280342/?tool=pubmed

    Seventeen infant monkeys assigned to the thimerosal group were given the typical schedule of vacccines for human infants (Table 1). Thimerosal (Omicron Quimica S.A., Barcelona, Spain), dissolved in saline, was mixed with thimerosal-free vaccines to yield a final concentration of 4, 8, or 20 μg/kg was chosen baed on the range of estimated doses received by human infants receiving vaccines during the first 6 months of life.

    That seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through if they had the TCVs at their disposal as you claim.

    Rho-gam…Ok now we are getting somewhere!

    Thimerosal-free since prior to April, 2001.

    In regards to Aluminum and Mercury…this is an easy one, simply read the MSDS sheet directly from Merck and you will see thimerosal is not to be used with or combined with Aluminum.

    Please do share this. Another evidence-free screed of epic proportions. Please provide some supporting evidence.

  61. #61 jenbphillips
    March 20, 2010

    STY wharrgarbled:

    Your big claim now is that Autism has always been 1 in 110 and there are 1 in 110 adults with Autism and it was just confused for a long time with MR. WOW, you just reached “beyond idiot, absolutely clueless” status. ARE YOU FUCKNG KIDDING ME!!! Show me the 1 in 110 adults with Autism?

    here you go.

  62. #62 jenbphillips
    March 20, 2010

    Listen very carefully, sometimes I don’t think you interpret the English language very well: Amalgams, when brushed lightly release vapors that you can see…do you understand that so far? When you put the mercury vapor analyzer up over the vapors it registers mercury vapors….HELLO…McFly?!?! Comprendo? This is 110% proof that amalgams are not stable like you and every dumb dentist claim. Vapors are released, they don’t have to be drilled out to be dangerous. This argument is closed.

    Hells yeah, I’ve got a link for that one, too!

    Ok, fun’s over. STY, you are a raving loon. I have to hand it to you for your profoundly apt embodiment of the arrogance of ignorance. You’ve thrown nearly every canard in the altie/antivax/conspiracy theorist bible at us, sometimes in duplicate, all generously slathered with ersatz condescension and fanfaronade. Most of it has been hilarious, in a Kwokkian kind of way, but my laughter dries up quickly with sentiments like these:

    I have lived Autism. I will also tell you another thing, it is worse than the worst nightmare you could ever imagine even having. It will introduce you to a world that you could never in a million years even imagine existed, and put you into a place that is a million times worse than hell.

    Lots of people here have ‘lived Autism’, either as parents of autistic children or by virtue of being on the spectrum themselves. Whatever your personal experiences with autism, there is no justification for such callous and bigoted pronouncements. Your worldview is, not surprisingly, just as monumentally fucked as your understanding of science and medicine.

  63. #63 SisterMaryLoquacious
    March 20, 2010

    i nominate jenb for post of the day for her exceedingly apt use of the word “fanfaronade.”

  64. #64 Calli Arcale
    March 20, 2010

    I don’t really have much time today, so I’ll make this quick:

    Gregarious Misanthrope @ 250:

    One of things STY brought up about the difference between ethyl- and methyl-mercury was that ethyl- was somehow converted to a form that stays in the brain much more quickly and that this made ethyl- more dangerous despite its half-life being much shorter.

    I don’t recall you addressing that specifically and I don’t much about it myself. What are your thoughts on this?

    I enjoyed reading your rebuttals.

    No, I didn’t specifically address that, mostly because there was so much else to address. So I’ll address it now.

    He didn’t explain what exactly he was claiming (changes to a more dangerous form is fairly vague, after all). Most likely, it’s the fact that, given enough time, some organic mercury (any kind) will form other mercury compounds, and these can be more harmful. The “given enough time” is the key, though. It doesn’t happen instantaneously. (No chemical reaction does, and the chemistry within the human body is very complex.) STY is basically claiming that ethyl mercury converts to inorganic mercury far more efficiently than methyl mercury does, which is a rather extraordinary claim to make without supporting it. It is, however, a common anti-vax talking point, so I have little doubt that that is where he picked it up. It seems to clear to me that he has swallowed a great deal unquestioningly, rather than educating himself sufficiently to critically examine these claims for himself. But then, that is fairly common for the intellectually lazy.

    Also fairly common in engineering, I’m afraid. I had expressed the sentiment that I hope he’s not an engineer, but now he has said that he is. As another engineer myself, I must confess I’m not totally shocked. Our field does not reward critical thinking adequately.

    I do have to agree with jenbphillips. STY is a raving loon. His basic strategy for coping with contradictory data is to a) pretend it doesn’t exist, b) claim it means the opposite, and/or c) call people names. He was a bit more imaginative in his RhoGAM discussion, but not much. He did not even acknowledge the bias I pointed out in his sample. Even if he did interview *hundreds* of women, *millions* received RhoGAM. His sample is skewed severely, and thus meaningless. He does not understand this.

    I am horrified that he says he’s talked to women who had several children, but only had the immunoglobulin shot for one of them. Obviously a fair number of people do not know what is at stake. I will not bother to explain, though, as he apparently does believe Rh disease of the fetus is preferable to autism. (Which makes me wonder how he’d feel about a Down’s Syndrome fetus diagnosed before birth. Where does he stand on that aspect of the abortion debate, if he feels having a mentally disabled child is the worst nightmare imaginable?)

    Which leads me to the quote of his which I believe sums up the entire issue for him. One need not read the rest of his arguments, because this alone explains why he is so willing to throw away facts. It’s because this issue is so important to him that it is more important than the truth.

    I will tell you one thing, I have lived Autism. I will also tell you another thing, it is worse than the worst nightmare you could ever imagine even having. It will introduce you to a world that you could never in a million years even imagine existed, and put you into a place that is a million times worse than hell. I will not respond to your comment whether it would be better to have autism or death from the swine flu itself.

    The worst nightmare you can imagine, eh? I submit you have a very limited imagination — and a very narrow view of the world, one dominated by your own inconveniences, and damn the rest of the world.

    Do you know anyone who has lost a child? I know several. They would gladly trade autism for the tragedy which claimed their child. (Again, STY, you should read bensmyson’s posts. They have made it very clear that while they wish their son were not disabled, they wouldn’t trade him for anything.) How about anyone who’s child was severely disabled in some other way? I know several — one due to encephalitis, one due to an anoxic brain injury, one due to a stroke, one born with fetal alcohol syndrome (adopted by people who knew that he had FAS), one due to cancer, one due to a congenital kidney problem (which killed him in his early 20s), one due to a traumatic brain injury…. Yes, life is hard if you have a severely autistic child. (I’m lucky; my child’s condition is mild, and very consistent with the sorts of things that have been in my family for generations.) But get your head out of your own self-pity for a moment before you start pretending that it is the worst possible thing to happen to your child.

    In fact, I recommend you pull your head out of your own self-pity before your child advances enough to realize how you feel on the subject. No child wants to be a burden on their parents; don’t put him or her through that. If you take one thing away from this conversation, I hope it’s that — your child is not hell, your child is not your tormentor, your child is YOUR CHILD, and you have a responsibility to love him or her. If you can’t deal with that, get help (e.g. respite care) before it is too late.

  65. #65 MI Dawn
    March 20, 2010

    @jenbphillips: hey, jen. Nice to see you back again and posting wonderful information in rebuttal to STY (who I have killfiled so I don’t have to read her GIGO stuff. Your rebuttals and Calli’s are enough to make me happy for Greasemonkey.

    P.S. I LOVE wharrgarble…I’ve seen it before but didn’t know where the link was…Thanks!

  66. #66 jenbphillips
    March 21, 2010

    Looking upthread I see that STY is off this weekend, no doubt conducting an interview with “Pfizer” or something that will contribute to his groundbreaking exposé changing everything we THINK WE KNOW about MERCURY. So I won’t hold my breath for a reply.

    Thanks Sister Mary. I always tell my kids that excessive cursing is a sign of intellectual laziness, so I guess the logical opposite of that is having–and using–a big vocabulary. I love being able to find the perfect word for any given situation, but when I reach for the ’50-centers’ (as my middle school English teacher used to call them) like ‘fanfaronade’, it’s almost always because I’m making a conscious effort to avoid using ‘fucking bullshit’ or similar.

    Calli, thanks again for your 263 re: the ‘worst nightmare’ fallacy and loving children with special needs. You said exactly what I was thinking.

    MI Dawn–thanks! I love wharrgarbl as well. It’s all over the ‘net–the tricky part is remembering how to spell it 😉

  67. #67 Salk
    March 21, 2010

    Wow, jenbphillips FTW!

  68. #68 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    You will all be happy to know that this is my last post for a while, Marc whas right that I am spending too much critical time debating people with very small brains. Don’t worry however, I’m sure I will make another appearance soon when I need a good laugh and I feel the need to debate the town drunks.

    @Jenb, you are sooo smart….NOT EVEN CLOSE. First of all, maybe you have severe ADD so you can’t get to the end of a study. Read below carefully taken directly from your idiotic post that just backfired on you:

    “A higher percentage of the total Hg in the brain was in the form of inorganic Hg for the thimerosal-exposed monkeys (34% vs. 7%). The results indicate that MeHg is not a suitable reference for risk assessment from exposure to thimerosal-derived Hg. Knowledge of the toxicokinetics and developmental toxicity of thimerosal is needed to afford a meaningful assessment of the developmental effects of thimerosal-containing vaccines.”

    “The inorganic form of Hg was readily measurable in the brain of the thimerosal-exposed monkeys. The average concentration of inorganic Hg did not change across the 28 days of washout and was approximately 16 ng/mL (Figure 7). This level of inorganic Hg represented 21–86% of the total Hg in the brain (mean ± SE, 70 ± 4%), depending on the sacrifice time. These values are considerably higher than the inorganic fraction observed in the brain of MeHg monkeys (6–10%).”

    “There was a much higher proportion of inorganic Hg in the brain of thimerosal monkeys than in the brains of MeHg monkeys (up to 71% vs. 10%). Absolute inorganic Hg concentrations in the brains of the thimerosal-exposed monkeys were approximately twice that of the MeHg monkeys. Interestingly, the inorganic fraction in the kidneys of the same cohort of monkeys was also significantly higher after im thimerosal than after oral MeHg exposure (0.71 ± 0.04 vs. 0.40 ± 0.03). This suggests that the dealkylation of ethylmercury is much more extensive than that of MeHg.”

    Stop bugging me on this one!!!

    Second of all, Calli, I am no longer responding to you. At least Jenb brought up a few decent points. You on the other hand go grasping at the whole abortion nonsense, and the completely senseless question of whether it would be better to be dead or have Autism. You are completely absurd to even bring these types of points up. Get over it and focus on the Science!

    @a-non, even though I’m not sure why we are still talking about flu shots, that is a large number of children, much larger than the number prior to 2004!!! Grasp the point!!!

    @Chris, you are still an idiot I see, you are making a huge assumption, and that is all it is an assumption. You are trying to do 1 + 5 and hoping it equals 10. To conclude from Sallie’s initial email that she was unable to find these vaccines simple by looking at Burbacher’s methodology is rediculous and unfounded. Stop with these stupid little comebacks. Does anyone else find Chris to have the dumbest point on this entire blog? I will not address this one again. Chris, I hope you aren’t a lawyer pal because a jury would laugh at you for how you came to your conclusion.

    @Oh shit not (Sceince Mom) Allison Singer again. Your statement about Rho-gam not containing thimerosal since 2001 is pointless. What does this have to do with anything? I have not made a claim about them still containing thimerosal. Although a study should now be done on pre and post 2001 Rho-gam moms. Maybe the CDC will fund this study…ha right! Well then again they will fund a pharmaceutical company who manufacturer’s Rho-gam to perform it. Oh, and see what I wrote to Chris because you made the exact moronic assumption.

    @Jenb…wow, yet another neurodiversity dipshit you are. Haha good luck with this study. Seriously, if you believe that Autism numbers have not increased and the rate has always been at 1 in 110, you have your eyes completely glued shut to this devastating “EPIDEMIC”. Those of you that believe this are shutting the biggest door to recovery for your children. Even some of the biggest people from your side who are so firm in their stance that vaccines don’t cause Autism, now understand there is an environmental component. Anyone who knows anything about Autism understands at this point in time two things: There is a genetic susceptibility and an environmental trigger. I didn’t realize I was in a neurodiversity blog. This is really disappointing. In this case I have been arguing with people who live in la la land and their world and experience with Autism is a great one and they wouldn’t change it if they could. God made your child this way right? WRONG, gross negligence by humans has made your child this way!!!!!!!

    One last thing to the utterly dumb Jenb…you just showed me you are a google queen. You simply google all day and think you know everything. The proof is your link to a Stephen Barrett article on amalgams. That guy is the biggest clownshow on the internet. He is very googleable however, and you found this article very easy. Come over to my house and you will see with your own eyes the vapors coming off an amalgam and the mercury vaporizer located directly above it register the mercury vapors. If Stephen’s article makes you feel better about the mercury you had in your mouth when your developing fetus was in the most critical stage of development, then so be it. This issue is not even debatable. IT IS A FACT.

    So you simple minded people can put your moronic attachments up all day long thinking you actually have a point when you have your eyes so closed. But then again, if I were you I would have my eyes closed also so I wouldn’t have to look at myself in the mirror.

    Also, below is an MSDS sheet for thimerosal. Pay close attention to aluminum and see yet again severe gross negligence. “Violent reactions possible with ALUMINUM”

    http://chemdat.merck.de/documents/sds/emd/int/en/8170/817043.pdf

    I’m sure I missed a few I needed to respond to but I’m tired and don’t really care. Bye Bye dumb ones…until next time! Try to drink a few less beers next time so I get some logical thinking out of you. Thanks.

  69. #69 Chris
    March 22, 2010

    Why would Bernard be looking for thimerosal containing vaccines if Burbacher planned to add it in varying amounts in the first place.

    It looks like she tried to get some, failed. So Burbacher changed his game plan.

    How is your fictional trip going? Have you even left your mother’s basement yet?

  70. #70 Science Mom
    March 22, 2010

    To conclude from Sallie’s initial email that she was unable to find these vaccines simple by looking at Burbacher’s methodology is rediculous and unfounded. Stop with these stupid little comebacks. Does anyone else find Chris to have the dumbest point on this entire blog?

    No, it would be you that has the dumbest points on this blog. You can’t re-visit this because you are wrong. If Burbacher had found TCVs, he would have written such in the methods. He didn’t so had to add thimerosal to paediatric vaccines, just as he indicated. That is the point of including your methods in the methods section.

    Your statement about Rho-gam not containing thimerosal since 2001 is pointless. What does this have to do with anything? I have not made a claim about them still containing thimerosal.

    You are dodging, as usual. You have repeatedly remarked about ‘RhoGam mothers’ and influenza vaccines as though there was contemporaneous inclusion of thimerosal.

    Also, below is an MSDS sheet for thimerosal. Pay close attention to aluminum and see yet again severe gross negligence. “Violent reactions possible with ALUMINUM”

    I asked for supporting evidence, not some blurb you puked up from an MSDS that you have absolutely no understanding of. In fact, your inclusion of this reminded me of a whackjob poster on AoA that Orac blogged about: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/09/what_were_up_against_aluminum_as_the_new.php I wonder if you are that same person.

  71. #71 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    Actually a couple last things because your stupidity makes me laugh very hard and I need it:

    @Jenb… your comment included “A much lower brain concentration of total Hg was observed in the thimerosal monkeys compared with the MeHg monkeys, that is, a 3- to 4-fold difference for an equivalent exposure of Hg. Moreover, total Hg is cleared much more rapidly from the brain after thimerosal than after MeHg exposure (24 vs. 60 days).”

    See people like you interpret Science completely wrong…the key words in your post are “TOTAL HG”!!! Your interpretation of the meaning of what you posted is therefore completely wrong because you don’t know the difference between “Total HG” and “Inorganic HG”. It is the inorganic form that causes the severe neurologic complications. I bet you still won’t understand this as it could be confusing to a moron.

    @”I don’t know anything about Science Mom”…Your post….”In regards to Aluminum and Mercury…this is an easy one, simply read the MSDS sheet directly from Merck and you will see thimerosal is not to be used with or combined with Aluminum.
    Please do share this. Another evidence-free screed of epic proportions. Please provide some supporting evidence.”

    You asked me to share the msds dumbass and then you try to back up and say you asked for supporting evidence…You are stupid! So I gave it to you. Read it and wheep. I’m sure after reading it you still think it is ok to inject this neurotoxin into your child. Your poor children have a very dumb mother that puts their lives at risk. You must remember I am an Engineer and I work extensively with MSDS sheets in my career. I am very fluent with reading them so nice try with your “assumption” that I have no understanding of it. It would be really hard to misinterpret this document. What part of Merck’s statement “Violent reactions possible with Aluminum” don’t you get? You simply close your eyes to anything that applies and implicates that we may have a serious problem here. I challenge you to respond to this in your own words and not some article that doesn’t apply. You dodged this one so fast because you knew you were burnt. Your post and response to this was completely moronic and didn’t counter my point or even anything close to it. You and Chris are by far the bottom of the barrel on this blog. ORAC, do you really allow these idiots to comment? They are even an insult to you.

    And to re-address the dumbest point on this blog. You and ChriTY are assuming Sallie’s email was specifically for Burbacher’s study. Where did it say that? The toxicologist (also university based) I interviewed on Saturday has also experimented on these exact vaccines with Sallie and others, and so have other researchers such as myself. Show me exactly where she says it is for Burbachers study, because I know of several studies with these exact vaccines that were going on around the same time with other researchers. Also, why would the email only address DTap, this makes no sense if your claim is accurate? What about Hep B, Hib, etc? Again, such a stupid point you have anyhow to try and prove something. You two are the biggest rookie mistake makers on here.

    Anyone else notice anything very interesting about the thimerosal msds? I think all of you need to read it so you finally understand the difference between acute and chronic exposures. Find any similarities with the chronic symptoms??? Ha, you might as well just sum it up in one word on the msds…AUTISM!!!! Oh wait, I forgot all you dipshits think Autism is strictly a psychological condition. You couldn’t be any further from the truth. Well, the truth is coming like a freight train and about to run you all over.

    Later Morons!

  72. #72 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    @Jenb…I bet you feel really stupid now that you even tried using your big fancy words when all you ended up doing was proving beyond any doubt that you don’t know how to interpret a very simple, yet very important, piece of the Science. It’s time that you stand down because if you make that big of a mistake, you simply can’t be counted on as a valid voice of reason. But it would be nice for you to admit that you didn’t interpret the study right. Are you the type that can admit when they are wrong? We will find out…

    @Calli, you never answered my question of the gender of your child on the spectrum, or the gender of your typical child? Even though I doubt you will tell the truth, why don’t you humor us?

    Shit, I’m getting bored of you all. You simply have nothing to offer me here, but lame responses. I have been giving you all many opportunities, however I’m not feeling any type of challenge here. Yaaaawwwwwnnnnnnn!

  73. #73 Chris
    March 22, 2010

    It was not an email, it was a posting on the Autism-Mercury Yahoo group. You are as clueless as the noobies to Usenet who kept thinking they were on the internet, and that posting on Usenet was “blogging.” Like the PeterB who started the whole idiotic Pharma Shill Gambit. I’d think you were PeterB, but he was actually a bit brighter than you (and admitted to selling supplements).

    Your thick closed skull cannot also deal with the fact that if Bernard had found thimerosal containing vaccine, then Burbacher (who was being paid by SafeMinds) would not have had to mix up their own.

    Now, if you have any real evidence to support your opinions, please share them. Otherwise, just keep your delusions to yourself.

  74. #74 Raging Bee
    March 22, 2010

    I can tell you every answer you have ever wanted to know in regards to the cause of Autism. Why there are 4 boys to every girl, why the entire epidemic started when it did, why the rates spiked exactly when they did, why some are born with it and others regress, why there are only 1 in 110 at this time that have it and not everyone, why the symptoms are exactly what they are, why there is a delay in onset of symptoms after the “final” exposure before they enter full blown Autism, why one child might have it but the brothers and sisters don’t, etc. etc. etc. Don’t start asking me these questions because I’m probably not going to keep responding on here because this is taking too much of my time and I can’t give all this away right now because it will all be coming out soon.

    Oh yeah…STY knows everything, but we all gotta wait for it, it’s coming out “soon.” And, as STY spent a LOT of time explaining to us, he doesn’t have time to answer all the questions he spent so much time claiming he could answer.

    The birthers said exactly the same thing shortly after Obama’s inauguration, and we’re still waiting for the game-changing bombshell revelations they promised us. They never appeared, it’s a pretty safe bet they never will appear, and it’s an equally safe bet that STY’s bombshell revelations will never appear either.

    STY also promised us he wouldn’t be posting here anymore; and he couldn’t even keep that promise. His track record for trustworthiness is — to put it mercifully — nonexistent.

    I will tell you one thing, I have lived Autism. I will also tell you another thing, it is worse than the worst nightmare you could ever imagine even having. It will introduce you to a world that you could never in a million years even imagine existed, and put you into a place that is a million times worse than hell. I will not respond to your comment whether it would be better to have autism or death from the swine flu itself.

    Oh well, at least his track record for pointless, pathological, pathetic hostility and resentment is a bit more reliable. Given how much of our time this guy has tried to monopolize just to spew an endless well of hatred at us, I REALLY hope there aren’t any children or small animals within his reach. This loser needs professional help — big time.

  75. #75 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    ChrisTY…you are a fucking idiot dudet! So she must have found all of the other vaccines then, because the only one she was asking for was DTaP, yet Burbacher still added thimerosal to all of the thimerosal free vaccines. Dude, get a clue, your “assumption” makes no sense. Shut the fuck up already! Your panties are in the biggest bunch over such an idiotic point.

  76. #76 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    wow Raging Bee..you bring up such educated intelligent points and have so much insight on this issue. Get the hell off this blog numbnuts…you don’t know one thing about Autism.

  77. #77 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    ChrisTY…you are a fucking idiot dudet! So Sallie must have found all of the other vaccines then, because the only one she was asking for was DTaP, yet Burbacher still added thimerosal to all of the thimerosal free vaccines. Dude, get a clue, your “assumption” makes no sense. Shut the fuck up already! Your panties are in the biggest bunch over such an idiotic point that really wouldn’t prove or disprove anything anyway. You are a little unstable and can’t handle when someone calls you out over something really dumb you have done. Face it and move on.

    Does anyone have anything of substance to say? My responses are at least full of substance, profanity sometimes as well but that comes with this condition and the straight up inability to accept ignorance and stupidity.

    You people really need to pay attention to @268 and @271. These seemed to have made this “discussion” very quiet all of a sudden.

  78. #78 RAging Bee
    March 22, 2010

    Excuse me, STY, but you have no authority to order anyone about here. This isn’t your blog, remember? Your relentless chest-pounding, name-calling fake-macho routine may work in a redneck bar, but it doesn’t work here; all it does is remind us all that you never learned to function as an adult in the company of other adults. If you don’t like the company here, YOU should be the one to bugger off. (But of course you won’t — you claim to hate us and have no time for us, but you can’t leave because there’s nowhere else where you can spew your sick hate, with impunity, and be the center of attention. You need us as much as you need food.

  79. #79 Chris
    March 22, 2010

    You responses are full of absolutely nothing but your clueless vitriol. They are just empty rants.

    Delusional troll is delusional.

  80. #80 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    @ChrisTY…your response was as expected…

    Come on I want someone who knows at least one thing about Autism to give me your best shot!

    Chris get your dipshit ass out of here already, you don’t know anything and all you are doing is embarrassing yourself. I’m about to start being nice to you because I feel embarrassed for you.

  81. #81 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    Hey Chris…I will give you a chance to redeem yourself…read the msds sheet I posted on here if you are smart enough to find it. Read it very thoroughly and tell me why you think it is acceptable to inject this into children at rates that far exceed the EPA guideline? Also tell me how it is acceptable to be using thimerosal in vaccines that contain aluminum? And yes, vaccines contain aluminum, I’m positive you didn’t know that. Can you give me your thoughts on this AFTER you read the MSDS very carefully?

    Hey Raging Bee Pollen…dude come on, say something that is valid about this issue or at least respond to some of my points? As for the way I talk, I adjust my dimeanor accordingly, and as you see by who I am talking to in here, there is no reason to talk to them like adults. I feel like I am debating the town high school drunks. Not only are they drunk and vulgar, they are not educated on this issue at all. If I was actually talking to educated adults, I would be the most professional person you have ever seen.

  82. #82 Chris
    March 22, 2010

    Delusional troll, the MSDS for thimerosal does make the case the dose makes the poison. Just like the MSDS for table salt.

    Your food contains aluminum. The dust in the air you breathe contains aluminum. That is because as the most abundant metal on this planet’s crust it is contained in the compounds that make up soil.

    Tootle off now.

  83. #83 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    @Chris…you fail…you are probably the most clueless person I have ever encountered…what you said is so stupid that you will not even get a response on that from your own side. Keep eating and breathing your aluminum pal!!! Once again you don’t understand the question or the point. Are you in 8th grade chemistry class right now? bye bye

  84. #84 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    Still waiting on Jenb to acknowledge how wrong she was in her interpretation of Burbachers study…damn, did you just read a few lines and then try to tell everyone something completely wrong just to save your face? Then you pranced around acting like you had called me out and said thanks to everyone for telling you how good of a job you did at responding to me? Wow, that is embarrassing 😉 😉 as you would do JENNIFER B PHILLIPS!

  85. #85 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    How do you like Jenb now Salk, MI Dawn and Sister Mary? FTW!!!! whooohoooo!

  86. #86 triskelethecat
    March 22, 2010

    I like JenBPhillips just fine. I think her writing is coherent, and she posts very good links to science-based medicine articles. And once in a while I like to peek at car crashes so I see what STY has to say, then I re-block the comments. I do so love greasemonkey and killfile.

    Hi, Jen (waves)

  87. #87 jenbphillips
    March 22, 2010

    Gosh, everyone, I’m so sorry I left STY unattended for so long. My, he has been fractious!

    You will all be happy to know that this is my last post for a while

    How many times is that that you’ve threatened to leave, STY? How can we miss you if you won’t go away? You’ve posted NINE TIMES since that statement, by the way, but I hope you’ve enjoyed wallowing in your alternate reality, in which you envision me finding my happy place in the corner after the proper spanking you’ve given me. In actual reality, I have a job that takes precedence over dealing with unstable Dunning-Kruger poster children, and this is the first opportunity I’ve had to respond.
    You ranted:

    See people like you interpret Science completely wrong…the key words in your post are “TOTAL HG”!!! Your interpretation of the meaning of what you posted is therefore completely wrong because you don’t know the difference between “Total HG” and “Inorganic HG”.

    On the contrary, I do know the difference between “Total HG[sic]” and “Inorganic HG[sic]”. The most important difference for the purposes of this discussion is that Inorganic Hg is a component of the values given for Total Hg. Yes, the Burbacher study reported that of the total Hg detected in the brain, a higher percentage of it was inorganic in the thimerosal group vs. the MeHg group. I have not disputed that at any time. However, the total levels were still lower, and were cleared more quickly, in the thimerosal group. There are no data that support your claims that inorganic mercury “locks in [to the brain] and doesn’t go back to the blood”.

    Burbacher et al do a bit of bleating and handwaving in the discussion about the purported thimerosal-autism connection, but their findings contribute nothing to this discussion, and of course in the intervening years numerous studies have failed to find any connection. Further, Burbacher et al did not do any sort of functional or histological analyses on these brains, thus everything you have raved on about regarding “severe neurologic complications” is unsupported by this or any other study investigating ethyl mercury in comparable amounts to what WAS injected during the course of the pediatric vaccine schedule. Note the past tense–as you no doubt recall, thimerosal has been removed from the childhood vaccines, and flu shots are also available in thimerosal-free preparations.

    One last thing [!!!!] to the utterly dumb Jenb…you just showed me you are a google queen. You simply google all day and think you know everything.

    No, I showed you an alternative strategy to your own which seems to consist principally of making shit up, along with a soupçon of freshly picked cherries; namely, citing sources and enabling other people to see and evaluate the background information that has led me to my current opinion on these matters. For someone who likes to crow about how ‘the Science’ is done, you seem regrettably unfamiliar with this approach.

    I’m out of time and patience for wiping the drool off your chin, STY. Have a nice evening.

  88. #88 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    Damn Jenb…really sad response…you turned into Calli. She shut up when I plowed her over. Now you are shutting up too?

    You are so slow with this…you said “However, the total levels were still lower, and were cleared more quickly, in the thimerosal group. There are no data that support your claims that inorganic mercury “locks in [to the brain] and doesn’t go back to the blood”.

    Must I copy and paste with less words to zero in on the key words that seem to fly right by your small brain:

    “Absolute inorganic Hg concentrations in the brains of the thimerosal-exposed monkeys were approximately twice that of the MeHg monkeys.”

    “This suggests that the dealkylation of ethylmercury is much more extensive than that of MeHg.”

    That should better suit your simple minded brain…do you know what dealkylation means Jenb? There is no debate about inorganic mercury not being able to readily cross the blood brain barrier like organic does. This is common knowledge and has already been proven and accepted. Oh, but maybe you can google an “article” by Stephen Barrett that “proves” otherwise. Maybe you should go out for once in your life and talk to someone like Burbacher who has studied mercury for many many years. You will hear it directly from him too that ethyl mercury de-ethylates into the inorganic form which locks into the brain and induces an inflammatory response (inflammation) in the brain. Have you ever had your brain become inflammed after receiving a single vaccination with 25 mcg of mercury in it Jenb? I can tell you first hand it is not fun. I will also tell you that I don’t have any kids.

    Well, since this one is a lost cause because you simply don’t understand science….why don’t you read the msds sheet for thimerosal and get back to me on why it is safe to combine it with aluminum in vaccines? Also, at the same time, after you actually read the MSDS for the first time in your life, let me know how as a parent you are ok with this being injected into your children? You don’t have much of a protective side do you? Also, just out of curiosity, do you notice any similarities between Autism and what the msds says can happen from chronic mercury exposure?

    I’m not feeling the intelligence from you Jenb…

  89. #89 Chris
    March 22, 2010

    Needs more cowbell.

  90. #90 Science Mom
    March 22, 2010

    Damn Jenb…really sad response…you turned into Calli. She shut up when I plowed her over. Now you are shutting up too?

    I think you have mistaken prevailing here for not wanting to deal with your batshit insanity.

    why don’t you read the msds sheet for thimerosal and get back to me on why it is safe to combine it with aluminum in vaccines?

    You are making the same mistake that so many anti-vaxxers before you have. You are putting stock into an MSDS without understanding how you can’t extrapolate that information to what you are attempting. But since you think that is such a linchpin, stick with it, it’s one of the few entertaining qualities that you have.

    Also, just out of curiosity, do you notice any similarities between Autism and what the msds says can happen from chronic mercury exposure?

    No, none. Mercury toxicity does not exhibit the same symptoms as autism. You would know that if you actually spoke to any of the people and entire organisations that you have claimed.

    You couldn’t be any further from the truth. Well, the truth is coming like a freight train and about to run you all over.

    Ooooo, I can’t wait. I certainly understand that your saga will be a challenge to transform into interpretive dance but don’t forget the Jazz Hands, you gotta have Jazz Hands.

  91. #91 Smarter Than You
    March 22, 2010

    Hey Science Mom…why do you ramble about pointless shit without a true response to my questions…

    You are starting to show your emotional instability a little Science Mom. It appears that I am getting you to lose your composure a little bit. Those who lose their composure lose Allison, I suggest you get it under control.

    Elaborate on your msds comment without just stating a worthless opinion. I don’t give a shit what you say Allison Singer, remove the immense bags from under your eyes so you can read the msds and see thimerosal should never be used with aluminum. Good proof behind this one moron!

    In regards to Mercury Symptoms…all you understand is acute symptoms dumbshit…just do a little research on chronic and get back to me…maybe autistic kids don’t have sensory issues, or central nervous system issues, or irritability, or maybe they are just perfectly healthy like you all claim? Ha, hilarious, actually distubing sad for your children who could get better if they had parents with brains that would fight for their health.

    One other thing…I know many of you doubt some of the things I have claimed that I have done…go ahead and doubt this, but I assure you it is all true. I might be a little crude, but I will not lie to you about something I told you I have done. Take from that what you will and keep acting like I haven’t done things to make yourselves feel better about having done nothing yourselves. You will all see in the end. The clock is ticking you moron high school town drunks.

  92. #92 Chris
    March 22, 2010

    Definitely needs more cowbell.

    (time to ignore troll)

  93. #93 jenbphillips
    March 22, 2010

    I’m not feeling the intelligence from you Jenb…

    *sad panda*

    Needs more cowbell.

    ROFL!

  94. #94 David N. Brown
    March 23, 2010

    Time to deal with this creature on its own level:
    STY: STFU.

  95. #95 Smarter Than You
    March 23, 2010

    Chris just ring the bell around you neck…Jenb good response…David, what you don’t realize is I adapt to my environment. Who are you again? And what do you know about the cause of Autism? STFU huh, are you a 13 year old girl (tween) and this is how you talk? I’ve never heard of a 13 year old girl named David…strange.

    Wow, the responses have come down to this huh…you all are much too easy to defeat. I was waiting for this time when your responses were as silly and meaningless as these.

  96. #96 Chris
    March 23, 2010

    Nah, still needs more cowbell.

  97. #97 Smarterer than Smarter Than You
    March 23, 2010

    I think it is sad how trivially easy it is to overpower Smarter Than You with my superior intellect. Frankly, I’m surprised this individual (probably a teenage girl skipping the school she desperately needs) has managed to type so much on a keyboard that must function poorly when pounded upon by pudgy fingers coated with a gummy residue of Cheetos and drool.

    I know it’s not socially appropriate to point out intellectual deficiencies in one’s antagonists, but I worry for the safety of Smarter Than You, someone who is clearly taken to suboptimal health choices. My guess is that Smarter Than You is snorting pulverized lead paint chips…this would explain the irritability, aggressiveness and severe learning problems.

    Although it’s not sporting to pick on the blithering cretin, I enjoy exalting in my nonpareil intellectual capacity. It’s fun to win, and I have completely and utterly destroyed this maundering simpleton without even trying. Since I have repeatedly eviscerated my distended dullard of a sparring opponent, I bid adieu to Smarter Than You and her risible attempts at conversant English. Keep up that typing, sweetheart: practice makes perfect!

  98. #98 jenbphillips
    March 23, 2010

    STY, you can continue to quote the paper at me line by line if you wish, but repeating things over and over again doesn’t make them true. The data in this publication are insufficient to support the extraordinary claims you are making. It’s really that simple.

    Maybe you should go out for once in your life and talk to someone like Burbacher who has studied mercury for many many years. You will hear it directly from him too that ethyl mercury de-ethylates into the inorganic form which locks into the brain and induces an inflammatory response (inflammation) in the brain.

    Ah, an argument from authority. At least that’s a change of pace from wild-assed assertions from your own head. It doesn’t matter what Burbacher’s credentials are–his hypotheses regarding thimerosal and ‘brain inflammation’ are not supported by any published data. If he or anyone has further studies to add to the picture, they will be objectively evaluated when they appear. Until that time, if all you can bring to the discussion are the 2005 study, an MSDS which, again, doesn’t support the conclusions you’re drawing from it, and your personal experience, anecdotes, and vague foreshadowing…you lose.

    Well, the truth is coming like a freight train and about to run you all over.

    And I’ll look forward to revisiting this topic when the freight train delivers the promised goods. Ciao.

  99. #99 Calli Arcale
    March 23, 2010

    “You will all be happy to know that this is my last post for a while”

    Promises, promises…..

    I am impressed at how quickly STY (the alleged engineer) pulls out the MSDS for thimerosal, as if this is some innovative argument rather than one of the more common talking-points made by the mercury militia. Clearly he/she/it is just as ignorant of the difference between industrial exposure and vaccines as he/she/it is of the difference between vaccines and dietary exposure. (Here’s a little hint: when you get a dental x-ray, the technician leaves the room to avoid radiation exposure. Yet you are allowed to be exposed? What’s up with that? Simple. While your dose greatly exceeds the recommended daily allowance for a dental technician, you’re only getting that once every year or so, whereas he/she would be getting it several times a day. As with mercury exposure, if it’s kept occasional, your body is more than capable of dealing with it. Which perhaps explains why our species has actually survived on this planet. To hear the Age of Autism folks talk, you’d think our species should’ve gone extinct about a million years ago.)

    I am also amused by the way the individual has, several times, dismissed opposing evidence as something someone googled, when it is fairly obvious that STY has an extremely shallow understanding of these concepts — as befitting someone who’s education might actually be *improved* by Google, since at the moment, STY’s arguments are essentially what is typically spoonfed by the mercury militia rather than anything he/she/it is likely to have discovered independently. “The MSDS for thimerosal says you need to take special precautions! OMG! And we inject it into our babies!” Well, yeah. You have to take special precautions when handling table salt too. Out of context, it means nothing.

  100. #100 colmcq
    March 23, 2010

    STY

    watch this video:

    http://bartholomewcubbins.blogspot.com/2007/01/bc-on-autism-revisiting-burbacher-2005.html … because it explains the Burbacher paper really well and illustrates the critical flaws it had and why you can’t extrapolate too much from it…

  101. #101 Smarter Than You
    March 23, 2010

    Damn, you guys have idiotic comebacks, and again nothing at all that counters anything I have said…

    The reason I have been so focused on the ehtyl mercury and msds is because they are two of the most elementary points of the whole issue and you guys can’t even dispell them other than your stupid insults that you claim I am such a “bad person” for doing right back to you. These are only two of literally hundreds of points and Science I can throw back at you but I simply can’t move on from these two because you have simply not addressed them. I have battled people like you for a long time, but you guys have been the least educated and had the fewest decent responses to anything I have said. I’m not going to even try to throw anything more complicated your way because you don’t even comprehend or understand the most simple pieces. I think even the dumbest of dumb Christschool and Kevin Leitch have given me more of an effort and that is sad. But eventually they ended up just losing their composures as well and all they had left was….”well well well ummmmm your mom!” Thats exactly the stage that you are all at and we barely skimmed the surface. The two most basic things you just try to shrug off as if it means nothing. You must all be associated with the CDC, they are known for this type of thing. I advise you all to open your fucking eyes!!!

  102. #102 David N. Brown
    March 23, 2010

    STY,
    I prefer intelligent discussion to insults and profanity, but the latter are far more prominent in your postings than the former. If it were my call, your comments and my own last one would be off.

  103. #103 Pablo
    March 23, 2010

    Maybe you should go out for once in your life and talk to someone like Burbacher who has studied mercury for many many years. You will hear it directly from him too that ethyl mercury de-ethylates into the inorganic form which locks into the brain and induces an inflammatory response (inflammation) in the brain.

    If I _were_ to talk to Burbacher, I might ask him what he means by “the inorganic form” of mercury. What ligands is he actually talking about? He couldn’t seriously mean mercury(0), because there aren’t that many reducing agents around, are there? What are the redox potentials?

  104. #104 Chris
    March 23, 2010

    Delusional Troll:

    nothing at all that counters anything I have said…

    Because, Kevin Champagne, you have not said anything that is substantial, supported by any evidence or has anything to do with reality.

    And it still needs more cowbell.

  105. #105 Vindaloo
    March 23, 2010

    Was that really Kevin Champagne? Dude, say “hi” to the Cajun Cowboy the next time Buttar butters you up.

  106. #106 Chris
    March 23, 2010

    It just seemed like his attitude, especially when he named Kevin Leitch. But I thought he was a truck driver, not an engineer.

  107. #107 Chris
    March 23, 2010

    Just finished a little research. I was at the library (yes, I actually do go to the library, Google is not everything) and read an article in the magazine Scientific American (I also checked out three books, one being a biography of Paul Dirac, and a Doctor Who DVD, “The New Doctor”).

    It was the Evolution of Minerals. This is where I learned that the most abundant minerals on the earth’s crust are feldspars, about 60%.

    Now, doing a bit more research on feldspar in wikipedia and the World Book Encyclopedia on our bookcase I find out that all feldspars contain silica and alumina (yeah, that is aluminum). The three main chemical compounds are KAlSi3O8, NaAlSi3O8, and CaAl2Si2O8.

    Notice how all three of them have these letters: Al ! Yep, that is aluminum. It is in the soil that you grow food in. It is part of the dust you breathe when the wind blows.

    My encyclopedia says feldspar is used in making glass, ceramics and paper. A clay that is created when fledspar weathers, Kaolinite, is used to make fine china. The chemical makeup of Kaolinite is Al2Si2O5(OH)4. Who is now afraid of Grandma’s fine china?

    So other than finding another planet to live on, how would you avoid ingesting and breathing in aluminum?

  108. #108 David N. Brown
    March 24, 2010

    Chris,
    As someone with a bachelor’s degree in geology, I have found the panic over aluminum highly amusing. You understate it a bit: “clay”, technically defined, has aluminum in it. Hence, a kid who eats a mouthful of mud could easily ingest more aluminum than would be in a thousand vaccines.

    Also, a bit of randomness, that I think could sum up a philosophy for many here: “Ours is not to rule the Earth. We just clean up the mess.”
    http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5777397/11/Shoe_shopping

  109. #109 David N. Brown
    March 24, 2010

    Chris,
    As someone with a bachelor’s degree in geology, I have found the panic over aluminum highly amusing. You understate it a bit: “clay”, technically defined, has aluminum in it. Hence, a kid who eats a mouthful of mud could easily ingest more aluminum than would be in a thousand vaccines.

    Also, a bit of randomness, that I think could sum up a philosophy for many here: “Ours is not to rule the Earth. We just clean up the mess.”
    http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5777397/11/Shoe_shopping

  110. #110 David N. Brown
    March 24, 2010

    Sorry for duplicate comments, things got hung up.
    “You must all be associated with the CDC, they are known for this type of thing.”
    “Kevin Champagne, you have not said anything that is substantial, supported by any evidence or has anything to do with reality.”
    No, no, clearly (Pig)STY is trying to advertise that he is really JB HANDLEY. The profanity… the insults… the ad hominem arguments… the preposterous exagerations, errors, and/or lies… obviously all the things JBH is “known for”.

  111. #111 Mike Frandsen
    May 1, 2010

    please see my article on vaccines, chelation, and recovery at http://www.examiner.com/x-43538-DC-Autism-Examiner~y2010m4d26-Autism-advocate-Lyn-Redwood-discusses-mercury-vaccine-controversy-chelation-treatment-and-recovery. Of note is that Redwood had Gamulin injections while pregnant. Interestingly, a second mother of a child with autism I interviewed had the same thing.

  112. #112 Scottynuke
    May 1, 2010

    Mike;

    a) you self-publish on examiner.com
    b) you reference mercury after it’s been debunked here repeatedly
    c) you have a personal sample size of 2, it seems.

    Looks like three strikes to me, thanks for playing.

  113. #113 seeking women
    August 27, 2010

    As someone with a bachelor’s degree in geology, I have found the panic over aluminum highly amusing. You understate it a bit: “clay”, technically defined, has aluminum in it. Hence, a kid who eats a mouthful of mud could easily ingest more aluminum than would be in a thousand vaccines.

  114. #114 Clay
    September 28, 2010

    Okay, I admit that while I often read this blog, I don’t always read it. I sometimes comment, but not often, because the science is usually way over my head. I regret not finding this discussion while it was taking place, because I missed out on the immediacy of it. Sort of like watching an old re-run, even though you didn’t see it the first time, it still seems old.

    However, I did find it hilarious, nonetheless, and I shall breathlessly wait to find out (next month?) just what earth-shattering news will overtake us like a freight train. Warmest regards to Calli Arcale, (who is always a delight to read) and everyone else who took on this extremely arrogant, vulgar, obnoxious person who thinks he is “Smarter Than You”. He’s no such thing.

New comments have been temporarily disabled. Please check back soon.