If there’s one thing about the anti-vaccine movement I’ve learned over the last five or so years, it’s that it’s virtually completely immune to evidence, science, and reason. No matter how much evidence is arrayed against it, it always finds a way to spin, distort, or misrepresent it to combat the evidence. Not that this is any news to readers of this blog or other skeptical blogs that make combatting anti-vaccine propaganda one of its major themes, but it bears repeating often. It also bears repeating and emphasizing examples of just the sort of disingenuous and even outright deceptive techniques used by promoters of anti-vaccine pseudoscience to sow fear and doubt about vaccines among parents. These arguments may seem persuasive to those who have little knowledge about science or epidemiology. Sometimes they even seemed somewhat persuasive to me; that is, at least until I actually took the time to look into them.

One example of such a myth is the claim that “vaccines didn’t save us.” The anti-vaccine website Vaccine Liberation has archived a set of graphs purporting to show that the death rates of several vaccine-preventable diseases, including whooping cough, diptheria, measles, and polio were falling before the vaccines for each disease were introduced. The website quotes Andrew Weil:

Scientific medicine has taken credit it does not deserve for some advances in health. Most people believe that victory over the infectious diseases of the last century came with the invention of immunisations. In fact, cholera, typhoid, tetanus, diphtheria and whooping cough, etc, were in decline before vaccines for them became available – the result of better methods of sanitation, sewage disposal, and distribution of food and water.

Bill Maher has said similar things about vaccines, and the “vaccines didn’t save us” gambit is a staple of anti-vaccine websites, being spread and parroted hither and yon throughout the blogosphere by credulous anti-vaccinationists. One particularly idiotic blogger wrote:

The mythology surrounding vaccines is still pervasive, the majority of the population still believes, in faith like fashion, that vaccines are the first line of defense against disease. The true story is that nutrition and psychological/emotional health are the first line of defense against disease.

Vaccines are a concoction of chemical adjuvants and preservatives coupled with virus fragments and have clearly been implicated in the astounding rise in neurological disorders around the world, yet the ‘popular’ media has embedded itself as a spokesperson for the pharmaceutical cartel and simply does not report in any responsible way the real situation.

Ah, yes, the truly brain dead “toxins” gambit. Of course, it is true that better sanitation is a good thing and has decreased the rate of transmission of some diseases for which sanitation can do so, many infectious diseases are transmitted person-to-person through the air from aerosolized drops of saliva from coughs and sneezes or from being deposited on objects that people touch frequently, like doorknobs and other fomites.

The “vaccines didn’t save us” strategy is a distortion, as I will show. The best way to demonstrate this is to go on to the very first website that currently shows up on a Google search for “vaccines didn’t save us.” Although the post is from November, it’s the main post that’s been spreading this lie since then. Entitled Proof That Vaccines Didn’t Save Us, it’s one of the most breathtakingly spectacularly intellectually dishonest posts that I’ve ever seen. I say that not because it uses a common anti-vaccine distortion, but rather because it ups the ante by adding a new one clearly designed to address the criticism of the old one. It hides it in plain sight, too, which is why I have to give the blogger props for sheer chutzpah. Actually, I have to give props to the person who devised the graphs used in this post, Raymond Obomsawin, PhD. They represent the classic anti-vaccine lie, combined with some very clever cherry picking. I won’t take them all on in this post. Maybe I’ll take some of them on in a future post. What I will do, however, is to take on the first several, because they represent a common anti-vaccine theme that is very similar to the one archived by the Vaccine Liberation website.

In fact, let’s look at the Vaccine Liberation page first. Notice that there are six graphs, four of which are for vaccine-preventable diseases for which widespread vaccination was undertaken, two for which it was not. All of them show decreasing death rates from the diseases. Wow! It seems like slam dunk evidence, doesn’t it? Vaccines didn’t save us! After all, death rates were declining years before the vaccine, and they were declining for the diseases that didn’t even need a vaccine!

Death rates.

Here’s the problem. It’s not surprising that death rates were declining before introduction of the vaccines. Medicine was improving. More importantly, supportive care was improving. For example, take the case of polio. Before the introduction of the iron lung and its widespread use, for example, if a polio patient developed paralysis of the respiratory muscles, he would almost certainly die. The iron lung allowed such patients to live, some for decades. No doubt improved nutrition also played a role as well. However, if you want to see the impact of vaccines, take a look at this graph from the CDC of measles incidence, not death rates:

i-f6905b6b8f63d7f3bb8681fd75515a67-Measles_incidence-cdc.gif

Similar results were seen most recently from several other vaccines, including the Haemophilus influenza type B vaccine, as the CDC points out:

Hib vaccine is another good example, because Hib disease was prevalent until just a few years ago, when conjugate vaccines that can be used for infants were finally developed. (The polysaccharide vaccine previously available could not be used for infants, in whom most cases of the disease were occurring.) Since sanitation is not better now than it was in 1990, it is hard to attribute the virtual disappearance of Haemophilus influenzae disease in children in recent years (from an estimated 20,000 cases a year to 1,419 cases in 1993, and dropping) to anything other than the vaccine.

In the post to which I referred, the most intellectually dishonest graph is this one:

i-665bde018572420f2a9a8fe6b71a0e7c-Measles-thumb-450x594-43696.jpg

Note how this graph, unlike all the other graphs used to make the claim that “vaccines didn’t save us” actually uses incidence data, in this case from Canada from 1935 to 1983. I was immediately suspicious of this graph, though. The reason should be obvious; the decline in measles incidence is far too smooth. Measles incidence typically varies greatly from year to year. Fortunately, in his chutzpah, Obomsawin included a link to the actual source of the graph. Naturally, I couldn’t resist checking it out, and I found that the link leads to the Canadian Immunization Guide section on the measles vaccine. And this is the actual graph from which Obomsawin allegedly extracted his data:

i-a4547faab26bf00c7bd8960a69e7c58e-MeaslesCanada-thumb-450x296-43699.gif

Note how Obomsawin left out a section of ten years (1959 to 1968) during which measles was not nationally reportable. Also note how he’s, to be charitable, cherry picked the years to produce the impression of a smoothly declining measles incidence from 1935 to 1958. As I said, it doesn’t get much more intellectually dishonest than that, nor does it get much more intellectually dishonest than this description of Obomsawin:

He has produced academically and/or professionally over eighty-five (85) articles, reports, policy documents, presentations, and publications.

A search of Pubmed reveals only one peer-reviewed publication from 1978, and it’s only a commentary. In any case, apparently served as Director National Office of Health Development of the National Indian Brotherhood (AFN); Founding Chairman of NIB’s National Commission Inquiry on Indian Health; Executive Director in the California Rural Indian Health Board; Supervisor of Native Curriculum, Government of the Yukon Territory; and Evaluation Manager – Department of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada. None of these are scientific positions. More tellingly, he is “currently engaged with government funding as Senior Researcher relative to establishing a Public Sector Policy on Traditional Medicine in Canada.” My translation? He’s somehow managed to get a government grant to try to promote “traditional medicine” in Canada. Apparently, the Canadian government has its own problems with government money going to promote unscientific and pseudoscientific nonsense of the type that NCCAM promotes. In any case, besides Obomsawin’s disingenuous and intellectually bankrupt distortions of incidence data used to serve his apparently anti-vaccine agenda, he has no qualifications to speak of with regard to science or epidemiology that I can find.

It also turns out that Dr. Obomsawin has some other–shall we say?–unconventional beliefs as well. For instance, he is approvingly featured on that aggregator of all things quackery and woo, Whale.to, where he expresses anti-vaccine views, HIV/AIDS denialism, and admiration for Royal Rife. So what we have here is a woo-meister using cherry picked points on a graph to give a false impression that the measles vaccine was not responsible for the dramatic decline in measles incidence in Canada in the 1960s. Quelle surprise!

Another rebuttal to the idea that vaccines didn’t reduce the incidence of the diseases against which they were designed comes from the simple observation that, as vaccine uptake falls, the disease vaccinated against returns. Always. This is described by the CDC quite well:

Finally, we can look at the experiences of several developed countries after they let their immunization levels drop. Three countries – Great Britain, Sweden, and Japan – cut back the use of pertussis vaccine because of fear about the vaccine. The effect was dramatic and immediate. In Great Britain, a drop in pertussis vaccination in 1974 was followed by an epidemic of more than 100,000 cases of pertussis and 36 deaths by 1978. In Japan, around the same time, a drop in vaccination rates from 70% to 20%-40% led to a jump in pertussis from 393 cases and no deaths in 1974 to 13,000 cases and 41 deaths in 1979. In Sweden, the annual incidence rate of pertussis per 100,000 children 0-6 years of age increased from 700 cases in 1981 to 3,200 in 1985. It seems clear from these experiences that not only would diseases not be disappearing without vaccines, but if we were to stop vaccinating, they would come back.

The United Kingdom is an excellent illustration of this trend. Back in the mid-1990s, it declared measles as under control, thanks to the vaccine. Then came Andrew Wakefield and a credulous, sensationalistic British press to spread his message that the MMR vaccine causes autism. The result was that measles came roaring back in the U.K. to the point that two years ago measles was declared endemic again there.

The Vaccine Liberation graphs and the even more deceptive graphs produced by “Dr.” Obomsawin are typical of anti-vaccine arguments. First, they contain enough of a grain of truth to them to sound plausible. After all, better nutrition and better sanitation have decreased the incidence of many infectious diseases. But they were not enough. Indeed, part of the reason we vaccinated against some diseases is because sanitation wasn’t enough. Was sanitation so much worse in the late 1980s before the Hib vaccine was introduced than it is now? No. Was it probably even that much worse in the 1960s, when the measles vaccine was introduced? Probably not. Yet, such is the myth that the anti-vaccine movement would have parents believe. Such is the intellectually dishonest nonsense they promote.

Truly, they are the pro-disease movement, more than anything else.

ADDENDUM: Steve Novella has pointed out that there is a better version of the graph in this reference, and he was kind enough to send it to me, given that, for whatever reason, my university doesn’t have a subscription to the relevant journal:

i-216374d910c4a36793787896003bce23-measlescanada-thumb-450x312-43766.jpg

(Click for full-sized version.)

Note how this graph looks at raw case numbers and shows 40,000 cases the year before the ten year interruption in the data. All in all, it’s a much clearer representation of the data than the first graph, showing a clear drop that occurred during the ten year period, in the middle of which the measles vaccine was introduced. It also shows another obvious drop in measles incidence later on in the 1990s, when the two-dose measles vaccine program was started. As for why it appears that there is a steep dip in the first graph before the ten year gap, that appears to be an artifact. There is no data for 1959, but the line appears to go to a datapoint at 1959 or 1960. My guess is that whoever made the graph simply set the value for 1959 to . In other words, the graph is a rather poor representation of the data, and the Canadian government would do well to replace that graph on its website with something more like the second graph, which makes the point much more clearly.

Comments

  1. #1 moto_lib
    March 30, 2010

    I’m glad that you changed your mind Poogles! I had an unmedicated childbirth in a hospital with a certified nurse midwife. It was a textbook birth, until I started bleeding out after the placenta was delivered. I was rushed to the OR to have a cervical laceration repaired. I nearly had to have a blood transfusion. Although I never would have considered a home birth even before this, my experience drove home the fact that serious complications cannot always be predicted. I would be dead had I not been in a hospital.

    As a new parent, I am so glad that I have found Orac’s blog, because it gives me ammunition in the fight against anti-vaxxers. I always try to be kind to parents who are on the fence, but I also point out the holes in the arguments against vaccinations.

  2. #2 phoenixwoman
    March 30, 2010

    RE: the troll with Sid’s name —

    This can’t be Stone Deaf Sid. He’s actually got some new arguments this time around. Last time I saw him his response to being utterly debunked was to wait until his debunkers had gone away, then repeat his original horsepucky as if nothing had happened (hence his nickname “Stone Deaf Sid”).

  3. #3 Poogles
    March 30, 2010

    “As a new parent, I am so glad that I have found Orac’s blog”

    I always tell my hubby that I am SO GRATEFUL I went through the whole anti-vacc, homebirth, “natural is always best” phase before I ever even got pregnant. If I had not started looking into any of this stuff until we started trying or after I was already pregnant, I more than likely would have stayed in that mindset indefinitely, instead of coming out the other side realizing how mislead I had been. At least my crazy baby fever had one good result, LOL.

  4. #4 The Gregarious Misanthrope
    March 30, 2010

    @Pablo #169

    I guess there is still a little money to be made from smallpox vax. The US military has been getting it for about 5 years now.

    @John #185

    I still don’t know the proper technique of using a bidet, but I give it a try when on the Continent (not due to incontinence), but trying to conscientious (hygenically speaking).

    @Poogles

    A coworker lost his first child during homebirth due to some issue with the cord. I don’t know for a fact that the outcome would have been different in a hospital, but the odds would have been better.

  5. #5 T. Bruce McNeely
    March 30, 2010

    @Neil Craig:
    I wasn’t actually arguing anything with you, so the accusation that I was using an ad hominem argument is kind of beside the point. I was merely stating that attempting a logical discussion with someone so bereft of reasoning ability that they would consider HIV denialism seriously is a completely pointless exercise.

  6. #6 Antaeus Feldspar
    March 30, 2010

    Unfortunately, sanitation is give short shrift as an important reason for the reduction. That ignorance arises from the blog authors lack of knowledge of modern sanitation science

    Passerby, thank you for bringing us a link to what seems a very interesting series of blog posts which I for one will enjoy checking out.

    But no thank you for condescendingly declaring that only “only [one] poster here … even came close to the central argument” and that the post displays “ignorance [which] arises from the blog authors [sic] lack of knowledge of modern sanitation science” when you are displaying ignorance of an issue the blog author specifically highlighted and explained.

    You keep explaining the factors behind the decrease in the fatality rate of measles, but if you had read the original post carefully, you’d have seen that Orac carefully distinguishes between reduction of the death rates and reduction of the incidence of the disease (as, in fact, the author of “Mystery Rays From Outer Space” does!) and notes that anti-vaccinationists are intellectually dishonest to give factors which may have reduced the fatality rate, such as sanitation and better nutrition, credit for reducing the incidence, which is what vaccination did.

    This is not an unimportant distinction, since measles has a lot of nasty consequences it can inflict apart from death; someone who lost their sight, their hearing or their fertility to the infection would certainly tell you that living through a bout of the measles is a poor second best to not getting the measles.

  7. #7 Passerby
    March 30, 2010

    I provide explanation not only for the multi-factor decrease in infectious mortality in the 20th century, I also note the historical change in *morbidity* and point to it’s importance, attributable quasi-vaccination and other measures listed that impact both individual and subgroup infectious susceptibility and symptom severity.

    The steady, stepwise decline in morbidity is also shown in a brief graph, Part II, Mystery Rays from Outer Space blog, although he doesn’t comment on it, as his point was to show seasonal patterns of morbidity continued to occur alongside steep declines in measles mortality.

    In the brief section on the effects of sanitation, part III, he states:

    ‘Measles is a classic respiratory disease; it doesn’t need water to spread, and sanitation doesn’t stop it from spreading.’

    Well, that is patent nonsense. Measles spreads by fomites, and that includes GI complications that are notable in rinderpest-infected cattle and in measles infected infants and youngsters.

    Moreover, morbidity is strongly effected by recent previous infectious disease in humans and animals, including the bacterial GI infectious agents that frequently and seriously weakened infants before modern drinking water treatment started approximately 1915. That pattern was directly due to contaminated surface and shall well water supply in urban centers.

    The key sanitation engineering factors were the reduction in suspended matter and disinfection steps in water supply, primary wastewater treatment, and the separation of water and sewage piping systems (rather than use combined systems designed not for wastewater but for storm-water conveyance) that also directed wastewater for outfall disposal, away from urban centers.

    In fact, while you’re at it, if you look at the Wiki page on Rinderpest, you’ll see that, ironically, the efforts to inoculate cattle against rinderpest predated efforts to induce seroprotection in humans:

    ‘The first written report of rinderpest inoculation was published in a letter signed ‘T.S.’ in the November 1754 issue of Gentleman’s Magazine,[1] a widely-read journal which also supported the progress of smallpox inoculation. This letter reported that a Mr. Dobsen had inoculated his cattle and had thus preserved nine out of ten of them, although this was retracted in the next issue as it was apparently a Sir William St. Quintin who had done the inoculating (this was done by placing bits of material previously dipped in morbid discharge into an incision made in the dewlap of the animal). These letters encouraged further application of inoculation in the fight against diseases. The first inoculation against measles was made three years after their publication.[1]’

    Prometheus was the only poster to point to the recent TMRCA estimates and suspect zoonotic origin paper, the probable rise of an exceptionally recent seasonal infectious agent in modern times (which may be associated with early seroprotection efforts), part of the complex story behind the reduction in broad group of infectious disease decline in in the past 90 years.

    Vaccination plays an important role in the eventual eradication of seasonal infectious disease, and I am not disputing that point.

  8. #8 squirrelelite
    March 30, 2010

    poogles 168,

    You beat me to it!

    Since we all die eventually, all life is a slow death. I hope Ben’s death is slower (and less unpleasant) than average, but like many other commenters, I worry that something they do to try to rescue him from his autism will make it less slow than it would otherwise be.

    Is that sufficiently obfuscatory?

    As for medicien man, I wonder if they are unconsciously channeling one of their Medici ancestors? I understand they were also very into toxic substances.

    I don’t know what “toxoids” are, but if they are chemical poisons like most biologically produced toxins (and not living organisms like bacteria and viruses), I don’t think the mechanisms of the immune system would react to and protect from them. Thus, priming the immune system with a vaccine against the toxoids probably wouldn’t work either.

    Human biology isn’t my real area of expertise, so my understanding is a bit cursory. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can clarify it.

  9. #9 punter
    March 31, 2010

    Can anybody here please explain then why it is just a coincidence that when the polio vaccine was introduced a brand new disease with the exact same range of symptoms as polio (viral meningitis, amongst others such as Guillian Barre) cropped out of nowhere and started infecting large numbers of people. Is it also an astonishing coincidence that chicken pox and shingles were always considered harmless until such time as the small pox vaccine supposedly eradicated that disease.
    Could you also please explain why it could only be coincidence that the exact same thing happened for diphtheria (regarding severe tonsillitis) or, well pretty much every disease really that has supposedly been eradicated by vaccination.
    Is it always just a coincidence that whenever a vaccine is introduced a brand new disease springs up with the same symptoms as the “eradicated” disease or is it – as Occam’s razor would have us conclude – that the diseases were just relabelled and the vaccines were useless.
    And again, I will ask. How do vaccinations work? How do T-cells, B-cells, antibodies or whatever remember things? I recently asked a senior lecturer in immunology and he confessed that nobody actually knew, but maybe he is wrong and someone on the board here will help me out.
    Thanks in advance for your explanations.

  10. #10 Chris
    March 31, 2010

    Sure, as long as you provide evidence that anything in your rant actually happened.

    Especially since polio and viral meningitis are not the same, nor do they have the same symptoms. The same goes for diptheria and severe tonsilitis (do kids even get severe tonsilitis anymore?).

    Try to make them real data, and not whale.to or any clone of that website. I have read about those same “coincidences” over and over again from John Scudamore (he does whale.to) on Usenet about ten years ago.

    How do vaccines work? Well, first you get a good grounding in basic Biology 101 (your local community college should offer a class), and then go to http://www.virology.ws/virology-101/ , watch the lectures and read the notes. Then you will learn that there is a big difference between the virus of polio, smallpox, varicella and others.

  11. #11 DT
    March 31, 2010

    @punter.
    I see you are one of the “just asking questions” trolls.
    You want to learn about the immune system, and how vaccinations work? Don’t ask people here, go do a bit of background work yourself. There are numerous sources of proper scientific/medical information. When you have looked at them, and when you have a specific query, then ask.

    As Chris has pointed out, the diseases you describe as “new” are quite unrelated to and easily distinguishable from the vaccine-preventable illnesses. They are not “new”, either. Viral meningitis and chicken pox were recognised as distinct medical conditions before smallpox and polio vaccines were introduced. They did not crop out of nowhere.

  12. #12 Neil Craig
    March 31, 2010

    Bruce McNeely you are the very definition of a troll. Not a term I use lightly but nothing else fits.

  13. #13 DT
    March 31, 2010

    Passerby, you responded to the fact that measles has a classic respiratory transmission route and that sanitation has nothing to do with it by saying “Well, that is patent nonsense.” Your posts display ignorance about the means by which measles is spread (hint, it is by inhalation of respiratory droplets or droplet nuclei containing virus) and has virtually nothing to do with what you describe as “sanitation”).

    The fact that one analysis suggests the modern virus seems to have diverged in the 11th century from an ancestor that also gave rise to rinderpest virus (rather than much earlier) is of interest, but contributes nothing to our current understanding of measles transmission.

  14. #14 Dangerous Bacon
    March 31, 2010

    The part of punter‘s nonsensical rant that I enjoyed the most is the bit about how smallpox vaccine “supposedly eradicated that disease”.

    Ooo, do you suppose that smallpox epidemics are still killing millions of people around the world, and the gummint is quarantining and hiding them in FEMA camps?

    What other juicy conspiracies are they feeding you on whale.to and Curezone?

  15. #15 Dianne
    March 31, 2010

    @214: Technically, the smallpox virus does still exist in freezers at the CDC in Atlanta and probably in a number of other places as a reserve backup biowarfare agent, so punter is technically correct in saying that it isn’t eradicated. However, I doubt that that’s what s/he meant.

  16. #16 Seb30
    March 31, 2010

    @Punter 209

    “I recently asked a senior lecturer in immunology” and he didn’t have the answer? Then I’m sorry, he is incompetent. Or you didn’t ask the question correctly.

    Just because it’s you, I’ll try to remember my immunology courses, from 15 years ago. I’m sure we know more now, but immunology is not my field anymore.
    Note to immunologists here: it’s oversimplified. I hope it’s mostly right.

    T-cell and B-cell don’t remember anything, it’s the immune system who remember things, as a whole. B/T-cell are highly specialized cells, which will produce a single antibody. B-cell release it, T-cell keep it on their cell surface to attach to infected cells (or tumor cells).
    The tricky part is, each cell will produce a different antibody (well, different on its epitope, the part recognizing a foreign molecule), because of a series of randomizing processes during B/T-cells’ maturation.
    The organism will triage newly formed T/B cells in the thymus: if the antibody they produce recognizes a protein from the human body, the cells are destroyed (sometimes one such cell escapes, and you got an auto-immune disease)
    Then the remaining cells will just patrol the organism. Most of them will never encounter a molecule matching their antibody, and will eventually die.
    But some of them will find their match, and as a result they will start proliferating. Part of the cells will produce antibodies (if B-cells) or go hunting for cells to kill (if T-cells). But part of these cells will be memory cells – cells which will live longer, and will physically keep around an antibody which was proved to be matched to a known threat.
    And the next time the same molecule or bug comes around, your organism will have plenty of cells which are matched to fight it. And because there are more of them, and they have been selected for the fitness of the match, the immune system will be faster at putting down the threat. It’s that vaccines do: select the cells to have a faster reaction next time. Or if you prefer, target practice.

    Re: how to be immune to a toxoid?
    Antibodies have many functions (target recognition, activation of complement), and one of them is competitive inhibition. By connecting to the molecule they recognize, antibodies could block the access of this molecule to other molecules (they are in the way, quite simply).
    By connecting to the part of the toxin which recognize your nerve cells and inject the part which will destroy your neurons, an antibody prevents the toxin effect. Long enough for a white cell to come by and swallow antibody and toxin.

  17. #17 JohnV
    March 31, 2010

    “Occam’s razor would have us conclude – that the diseases were just relabelled and the vaccines were useless.”

    Yeah Occam thinks that you’re full of shit.

  18. #18 T. Bruce McNeely
    March 31, 2010

    Bruce McNeely you are the very definition of a troll. Not a term I use lightly but nothing else fits.

    You got me. You got me good.

    Thanks for confirming that you are indeed an HIV denialist.

  19. #19 Militant Agnostic
    March 31, 2010

    @212

    Bruce McNeely you are the very definition of a troll. Not a term I use lightly but nothing else fits.

    Project much?

  20. #20 Calli Arcale
    March 31, 2010

    punter @ 209:

    Can anybody here please explain then why it is just a coincidence that when the polio vaccine was introduced a brand new disease with the exact same range of symptoms as polio (viral meningitis, amongst others such as Guillian Barre) cropped out of nowhere and started infecting large numbers of people.

    I’ve had viral meningitis. (Well, probably. Long story, but the actual organism was never identified in my case. Clinically, it looked viral.) It ain’t polio. Neither is Guillain Barre. GBS is actually a pretty interesting disease — it’s not an infection. It’s an autoimmune disorder that seems to be triggered by fever. Any fever. You can get it after a vaccination, or after a natural infection, or possibly even a mechanical fever. It can strike months after the triggering fever, making it nearly impossible to definitively identify the trigger. It certainly existed before it was clinically recognized (probably throughout human history); it’s such an oddball ailment that it took a long time for scientists to work out what was going on. It’s a neurological disorder — but it ain’t polio. It’s definitely a distinct disease.

    Is it also an astonishing coincidence that chicken pox and shingles were always considered harmless until such time as the small pox vaccine supposedly eradicated that disease.

    Chickenpox and shingles were never as deadly (or as contagious) as smallpox; smallpox probably did somewhat eclipse the public perception of less lethal poxes. But only somewhat; chickenpox has never been a particularly good disease to have, and it’s always killed a percentage of those who contract it. Shingles, likewise, has always had a certain rate of serious complications, and that hasn’t changed. What has happened is that now there is a way to prevent it.

    People tend to be blase about the things they can’t control, because it’s much easier to cope with life that way. Are you worried about being struck by a meteorite? Probably not; after all, it’s not likely, and there’s absolutely nothing you can do about it anyway, so what’s the point in worrying? That’s how people thought about chickenpox before the vaccine. (Well, for the most part; people still found chickenpox dangerous enough to be worth carefully exposing their child in hopes of contracting it when the odds of avoid death are more in their favor. Not an entirely stupid idea, but vaccination lets you control the odds much more effectively.) Now that astronomers have the means to detect potentially hazardous asteroids, and now that engineers have come up with possible methods of deflecting them, people are starting to worry about the really big meteorites. It’s not that asteroids have suddenly become more dangerous; it’s that now, for the first time, there is the possibility of doing something about them.

    Could you also please explain why it could only be coincidence that the exact same thing happened for diphtheria (regarding severe tonsillitis) or, well pretty much every disease really that has supposedly been eradicated by vaccination.

    Diptheria remains a serious threat in other parts of the world, where people are not routinely vaccinated against it. And people there get tonsilitis too. It’s not a replacement diagnosis. Tonsilitis is a condition that can be caused by many things. I’m not a doctor; I don’t know whether diptheria is one of them. But it’s certainly not the *only* one, and never was.

    You ask if it is a coincidence that new diseases spring up as vaccinations are introduced, but there is no coincidence to explain. No new diseases* are springing up; the things you are suggesting as replacements actually coexisted with those diseases for a very long time. Syndromes like GBS are probably ancient; just because scientists discover it in the 20th century doesn’t mean it never happened before. It just means they hadn’t formally described it yet. One must remember that medical science as a systematic discipline is relatively young, so one should expect that there are lots of things still unknown to it.

    * Well, actually there are new diseases springing up all the time, evolution being what it is, but they’re totally novel. They’re not sneaky replacements for old diseases. Of course, many of these novel diseases aren’t as novel as we think; though West Nile Virus was first isolated in 1937 (and arrived in North America just a decade ago), genetic analysis suggests it actually emerged about a thousand years ago. Maybe it was sickening people sporadically during that time, and maybe it was just hanging out in wild animals and thus went unnoticed.

  21. #21 Sauceress
    March 31, 2010

    #209 punter

    And again, I will ask. How do vaccinations work? How do T-cells, B-cells, antibodies or whatever remember things?

    Here ya go punter…scroll 2/3 way down that page to “Immunological memory”.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bookshelf/br.fcgi?book=imm&part=A1322#A1372

    Better still, if you are genuinely interested in learning how the immune system functions, read that entire page…at least. (Note that this text cannot be browsed…you must use the search function if you want to look up other immunology concepts…they’re all there 🙂

    I recently asked a senior lecturer in immunology and he confessed that nobody actually knew

    Just out of curiosity, was that perhaps at one of those anti-evilutionist places that teach “Creationist Science” ?

  22. #22 Calli Arcale
    March 31, 2010

    Random thought….

    What do those who adhere to the theory of vaccines causing autism make of the fact that autistic children tend to have larger heads (in proportion to their bodies) than the general population? It’s one of the more peculiar correlations found with autism. It’s not predictive; more people have big heads and are non-autistic than have big heads and are autistic. But autistics are quite a bit more likely to have big heads than everybody else is. If you are a person who believes vaccines cause autism, how do the large skulls fit into it? Remember that this is not some sudden growth; these children have large skulls the day they are born. (Much to their mothers’ chagrin, I imagine. I was fortunate; my babies were born by c-section, so my eldest’s large crown was not a problem. But I wince when I think of my mother giving birth to me, with my big ol’ noggin! Good thing I was early!)

  23. #23 Todd W.
    March 31, 2010

    @Calli Arcale

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t they also tend to have larger hands and ears, as well?

  24. #24 Calli Arcale
    March 31, 2010

    I only know about the head thing, but that’s quite possible. I’m not sure if my daughter’s hands are larger than normal, because I don’t know what’s average for a girl her size, but mine sure are. Ears . . . well, in my family that may be masked by another situation. We tend to have Ross Perot/Prince Charles ears. Radar dishes on the sides of our heads. 😉 My parents had mine tacked back as a child, but my eldest did inherit them. She luckily picked up wavy hair from hubby’s side of the family, so they don’t show too much. We’re letting her decide as she ages if she wants them “fixed”. (Otoplasty.) Right now, anyway, she’s not getting picked on for them or anything, so we’re letting them be.

    I was unconscious when she was born (emergency c-section) and I remember a brief moment of uncertainty as they brought her in to the recovery room. I had not seen her born; how would I know this was my child? I pulled back the blanket, saw the ears, and knew this was mine. 😉

  25. #25 Dianne
    March 31, 2010

    But autistics are quite a bit more likely to have big heads than everybody else is.

    IIRC, head circumference is larger at birth and in early childhood for autistics but is about the same in adolescence and adulthood. But the difference is there before vaccination. So what’s next to blame? Vaccination of the mothers? Cell phones? Unspecified toxins?

  26. #26 Ian
    March 31, 2010

    Obviously it’s pre-natal exposure to Mr Burns’ brain tonic. There’s an article about it on whale.to

  27. #27 Neil Craig
    April 1, 2010

    So nobody at all disputes that what the author of the thread says is indeed dishonest 7 hypocritical.

    Fair enough.

  28. #28 Luna_the_cat
    April 1, 2010

    Neil,

    You remind me of http://wondermark.com/606/.

  29. #29 Not really
    April 1, 2010

    Neil Craig:

    So nobody at all disputes that what the author of the thread says is indeed dishonest 7 hypocritical.

    Fair enough.

    Or… Nobody’s interested in engaging with a batshit lunatic like yourself. Cheerio!

  30. #30 triskelethecat
    April 1, 2010

    @Neil Craig: anyone who can call T. Bruce McNeely a troll deserves to be ignored. Anyone who is an HIV denier deserves to be ignored. So why should we discuss your nonsense?

  31. #31 Luna_the_cat
    April 1, 2010

    I was trying to point out to Neil that he reminded me of the Wondermark comic #606 — http://wondermark.com/606/ — but my original link got hung in moderation.

  32. #32 Jen in TX
    April 1, 2010

    “But autistics are quite a bit more likely to have big heads than everybody else is.”

    Interestingly, some studies have suggested that a larger head circumference is associated with allergic disorders, as well.

  33. #33 Andrew
    April 1, 2010

    Neil Craig:

    You’re confusing contempt with defeat, but see post 159.

  34. #34 Dedj
    April 1, 2010

    “So nobody at all disputes that what the author of the thread says is indeed dishonest 7 hypocritical.

    Fair enough.”

    It was made abundantly clear in the “consensus” thread that Orac was not dismissing opposition to consensus on the basis of evidence, but was discussing opposition to consensus on the basis of opposing the idea of consensus.

    Thus your basis for proclaiming ‘hypocrisy” was established as false in the original thread. This was established by the end of the 24th.

    In effect, your claim was established as clearly false nearly 5 days before you made it.

    Please keep up or shut up.

  35. #35 Prometheus
    April 1, 2010

    Neil Craig [#227] commented:

    “So nobody at all disputes that what the author of the thread says is indeed dishonest 7 [sic] hypocritical.”

    I’m sorry – I wasn’t paying any attention to you. Were you referring to this bit of nonsense:

    “Alternately what “evidence, science, and reason” is there in catastrophic global warminmg, passive smoking killing, the LNT radiation theory, polar bears being endangered, peak oil, acid rain, HIV-AIDS, salt being dangerous, cholesterol & the numerous other “scientific consensii”, politically correct because promoted by those in charge, scares which are not denounced here?”

    or were you asserting that “revising” historical data on infectious diseases and/or presenting it in a distorted and deceptive fashion is “OK” in your world view?

    Was there a point in your comments? There didn’t seem to be.

    Prometheus

  36. #36 Neil Craig
    April 2, 2010

    So 6 posts all saying they cannot or will not debate. You rarely see apathy applied with such enthusiasm.

    When the only possible defence is trolls making ad hominum atttacks the point is clearly made.

  37. #37 triskelethecat (MI Dawn)
    April 2, 2010

    @Neil Craig: you are obviously confusing apathy with scorn. You are the one making the ad hom attacks, and as a liar, you are prime. And now you have just become the 2nd person in my killfile. Congratulations for your achievement.

  38. #38 Dedj
    April 2, 2010

    “When the only possible defence is trolls making ad hominum atttacks the point is clearly made.”

    It’s not an ad hominem to point out that your arguement was demonstratably false days before it was made.

    You failed to debate that. Thus, by your own logic, it must be true.

    Do not confuse seeing you as a unworthy participant (and thats giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are merely confused or incompetant and not a deliberate manipulative liar) with being unable to address your (already addressed days prior to making them) concerns.

    You have been told before that refusal to play your silly little games is not the same as admitting defeat. You are the one that has to substantiate your claims. You have failed to do so on each and every request. We have no responsiblity to address any of your questions until you demonstrate them to be supported and rational.

    You are not worthy, as you have amply demonstrated multiple times. It’s time for you and your ego to realise that.

    As you want to play by silly pedantic rules, you will, in your next post, provide direct quotes from the original threads that substantiate your claims. Failure to do so will be taken as evidence of lack of competance and understanding.

    These are the rules you have laid down for others. You will now be held to them.

  39. #39 Prometheus
    April 2, 2010

    Neil Craig whinges:

    “So 6 posts all saying they cannot or will not debate. You rarely see apathy applied with such enthusiasm.”

    It’s not that I’m unwilling to “debate”, just that I’m unclear what you are proposing as your position. Is your position that all scientific consensus is invalid or is your position that Orac and/or the regular readers of this ‘blog are mindless adherents to “scientific dogma”?

    Or did you have another, entirely different position?

    The problem is that your arguments are so poorly constructed that it is nearly impossible to tell what you are arguing.

    Try being clear and concise. Be prepared to support your position with data. If you do that, people might listen to you and treat you like an adult.

    Prometheus

  40. #40 Graeme Bird
    April 6, 2010

    Testes testes one two three.

  41. #41 Chris
    April 6, 2010

    Testes can swell.

  42. #42 Anonymous
    September 3, 2011

    If vaccines are so great for children’s health why has the US become 40th in the world in infant death? we are now up to some 68 vaccines for children (thi$ i$ nothing but greed). With all these vaccines we should have the best infant health on the planet if these vaccines worked. There is a standing offer to any doctor or pharmacist -$10,000 to take complete round of childhood shots in a adult size proportion. No one has voluntered-let me know if there are any takers.
    amt of mercury allowed in water 2 ppr billion
    amt of mercury considered toxic waste (requiring hazmat cleanup) 200 ppr billion
    amt of mercury in thermerisol 2,500 ppr billion
    amt where thermerisol is a trace ingredient 300ppr billion.
    most individuals are able to metabolize and eliminate some of the mercury but some do not do this efficiently. Mercury when combined with aluminum and formaldehyde (like in vaccines) creates a toxic synergy greater than the sum of the parts.
    WHY INJECT TOXIC WASTE OF THE WORLD’S MOST DEADLY SUBSTANCES? Is this do no harm? Or is this to maximize profit? Once you kill the immune system you have lucrative patients for life.
    peanut oil used as an adjuvant in vaccines is highly suspect in the 2% of the population to have severe life threatening peanut allegies (okay if you claim it isn’t the vaccines what explains the drastic rise in peanut allergies) PROTEINS from egg and peanut (in vaccines) should NEVER be injected directly into the bloodstream.
    Wake up NEVER put protein in the blood system.
    homeopathy is hard to wrap your mind around-it seems counterintuitive-but it works. Homeopathy is the only natural therapy approved by the FDA. In it’s 200 year history of use no one has ever been harmed. homeopathy works really well for flu-both to prevent and treat.During the 1918 flu epidemic 30% treated with allopathic medicine
    (drugs/vaccines) died. Only 1% treated with homeopathy died.
    Homeopathy is the second most practiced form of medicine on the planet-only second to Chinese herbalism, ahead of allopathic medicine. Homeopathy, as I mentioned has been around for 200 years and does have extensive provings and research to support it’s effectiveness. Allopathic drugs are really the new experimental “kid on the block”.
    DO NO HARM-USE NATURE FIRST. DISEASE IS NOT CAUSED BY A
    MERCURY-FORMALDAHIDE-ALUMINUM DEFICIENCY! There is strong correlations to these injections and extensive damage and death.

  43. #43 Gray Falcon
    September 3, 2011

    [citation needed]

  44. #44 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    September 3, 2011

    The Anonymous necromancer troll’s overwrought, nearly content free diatribe is overwrought and nearly content free.

    During the 1918 flu epidemic 30% treated with allopathic medicine (drugs/vaccines) died. Only 1% treated with homeopathy died.

    Citation needed. Also, please inform the group why you believe medicine has made no progress in 94 years and give citations.

  45. #45 Samuel Hahnemann
    September 3, 2011

    amish kids do not have peanut allergies (unless they are vaccinated)
    pharmaceutical companies are some of the most unscrupulous corporations in the world, seems like satan himself is on their board of directors. have been caught purposely spiking vaccines w/ illness causing substances
    do no harm has been replace with maximize profit.

  46. #46 Chris
    September 3, 2011

    [citation needed]

  47. #47 Samuel Hahnemann
    September 3, 2011

    as a former business student i understand that corporations exist, first and foremost, to make a profit.
    when you ask almost any US doctor about anything related to alternative medicine they say none of it works and it can be dangerous. in Germany they have the german commission e.
    this is the advising board to m.d. that makes therapeutic suggestions for using herbal medicine (before trying drugs). european doctors will use nature first. that is not to say that there is not a place for pharmaceuticals but they should be one of the last treatment protocols not the first. drugs do have side effects-so need to be used with great caution. plants (herbs) are the safest substance (long track records of use-in some cases thousands of years) on the planet and often times work better than drugs without side effects. why are these being bad mouthed by MD in the US, not like they might be suggested in europe?
    G R E E D !
    drugs (vaccines) can be patented and are highly profitable.
    as i said maximize profit has replaced do no harm.
    money corruption is systemic to our medical system.
    only when greed is removed will medicine become honorable.
    otherwise sirs you have no credibility and have alot of blood on your hands from needless suffering.

  48. #48 Gray Falcon
    September 3, 2011

    Any evidence for your accusations?

  49. #49 Samuel Hahnemann
    September 3, 2011

    The following is an extract from an article entitled “Homeopathy In Influenza- A Chorus Of Fifty In Harmony” by W. A. Dewey, MD that appeared in the Journal of the American Institute of Homeopathy in 1920.

    Dean W. A. Pearson of Philadelphia collected 26,795 cases of influenza treated by homeopathic physicians with a mortality of 1.05%, while the average old school mortality is 30%.

    Thirty physicians in Connecticut responded to my request for data. They reported 6,602 cases with 55 deaths, which is less than 1%. In the transport service I had 81 cases on the way over. All recovered and were landed. Every man received homeopathic treatment. One ship lost 31 on the way. H. A. Roberts, MD, Derby, Connecticut.

    In a plant of 8,000 workers we had only one death. The patients were not drugged to death. Gelsemium was practically the only remedy used. We used no aspirin and no vaccines. -Frank Wieland, MD, Chicago.

    I did not lose a single case of influenza; my death rate in the pneumonias was 2.1%. The salycilates, including aspirin and quinine, were almost the sole standbys of the old school and it was a common thing to hear them speaking of losing 60% of their pneumonias.-Dudley A. Williams, MD, Providence, Rhode Island.

    Fifteen hundred cases were reported at the Homeopathic Medical Society of the District of Columbia with but fifteen deaths. Recoveries in the National Homeopathic Hospital were 100%.-E. F. Sappington, M. D., Philadelphia.

    I have treated 1,000 cases of influenza. I have the records to show my work. I have no losses. Please give all credit to homeopathy and none to the Scotch-Irish-American! -T. A. McCann, MD, Dayton, Ohio.

    One physician in a Pittsburgh hospital asked a nurse if she knew anything better than what he was doing, because he was losing many cases. “Yes, Doctor, stop aspirin and go down to a homeopathic pharmacy, and get homeopathic remedies.” The Doctor replied: “But that is homeopathy.” “I know it, but the homeopathic doctors for whom I have nursed have not lost a
    single case.” -W. F. Edmundson, MD, Pittsburgh.

    There is one drug which directly or indirectly was the cause of the loss of more lives than was influenza itself. You all know that drug. It claims to be salicylic acid. Aspirin’s history has been printed. Today you don’t know what the sedative action of salicylic acid is. It did harm in two ways. It’s indirect action came through the fact that aspirin was taken until prostration resulted and the patient developed pneumonia. -Frank L. Newton, MD, Somerville, Massachusetts

    Aspirin and the other coal tar products are condemned as causing great numbers of unnecessary deaths. The omnipresent aspirin is the most pernicious drug of all. It beguiles by its quick action of relief of pain, a relief which is but meretricious. In several cases aspirin weakened the heart, depressed the vital forces, increased the mortality in mild cases and made convalescence slower. In all cases it masks the symptoms and renders immeasurably more difficult the selection of the curative remedy. Apparently aspirin bears no curative relation to any disease and it ought
    to be prohibited. -Guy Beckly Stearns, MD, New York

    Three hundred and fifty cases and lost one, a neglected pneumonia that came to me after she had taken one hundred grains of aspirin in twenty-four hours. -Cora Smith King, MD, Washington, DC

    I had a package handed to me containing 1,000 aspirin tablets, which was 994 too many. I think I gave about a half dozen. I could find no place for it. My remedies were few. I almost invariably gave Gelsemium and Bryonia. I hardly ever lost a case if I got there first, unless the patient had been sent to a drug store and bought aspirin, in which event I was likely to have a case of pneumonia on my hands. -J. P. Huff, MD, Olive Branch, Kentucky.

    In reading the accounts of the epidemic it seems that most of the deaths were caused by a virulent pneumonia that was especially devastating to those who depressed their system with analgesics-the most common being aspirin.

    The Physician from whom I first learned homeopathy, Raymond Seidel, MD, HMD, said that he decided to be a homeopathic doctor during the flu epidemic when he was working as a delivery boy for a homeopath in New Jersey. Raymond Seidel told me that he decided to become a homeopathic doctor when he was a ten-year old delivery boy for a local homeopath. He said, “I saw that the people who were taking aspirin were dying, about half those who were drinking a lot were dying, and those that received homeopathic remedies were living.”

  50. #50 Samuel Hahnemann
    September 3, 2011

    you asked for citations and when i try to provide them you block my entries. is this fair? or do you just not happened to like what i am saying even if it is true?
    i can back up everything i am saying if you don’t censor me

    who talks like this anyways…..

    “The Anonymous necromancer troll’s overwrought, nearly content free diatribe is overwrought and nearly content free.”
    lol

  51. #51 liady
    September 3, 2011

    gee guys you hooked a live one here…a genuine necromancing factoid-filled troll who things his dreck is poetry…in the style of E.E. Cummings.

    as a (failed) “former business student” who could not cut the mustard in legitimate business circles, sam now is quite successful peddling herbs and sugar water to his “marks”…sorry we are not buying them and not buying his unique retelling of history.

  52. #52 Gray Falcon
    September 3, 2011

    If you’ve got more than one link, then the post will be held for moderation. Still, you should post on a more recent article.

  53. #53 Samuel Hahnemann
    September 3, 2011

    search Bayer knowingly sold HIV contaminated vaccines
    search Biological weapon? Live avian flu virus placed in
    Baxter vaccine materials sent to 18 countries

  54. #54 TBruce
    September 3, 2011

    SH:

    I did the search – hundreds of sites screaming about Bayer selling HIV contaminated vaccines. Only problem is that it wasn’t a vaccine – it was a clotting factor for treatment of hemophilia. Absolutely nothing to do with vaccines.

    You really are an idiot.

  55. #55 Bronze Dog
    September 3, 2011

    One thing that should be pointed out: “Allopathy” is pretty much an irrelevant issue to science-based medicine. I’ve been reading comments for a long time on this blog, and I’ve never met an “allopath.”

    Though I suppose I can imagine some crank from the other side of the planet marketing allopathy as “Ancient Western Wisdom” in a fallacious appeal to the exotic, like many quacks do over here with ancient “Eastern” treatments. I’m pretty sure I’ve read about some doing the same for homeopathy in China or Japan. I consider the tactic to be pretty racist, of course.

    Homeopaths, however, will insist on using “allopathic” as an anachronistic catch-all code word for The Other. It really doesn’t have much effect on people like us, who don’t share the same assumptions or believe in the same false dichotomies.

  56. #56 TBruce
    September 3, 2011

    SH:

    I did the other search – it appears that a lab error resulted in contamination of a seasonal flu virus sample with avian flu virus. This was detected by standard QA procedures before any vaccines were distributed. It was not “placed in the vaccine materials”.

    When we ask for citations, we don’t mean semi-literate bullshit from naturalnews.com or whale.to.

  57. #57 Samuel Hahnemann
    September 3, 2011

    i guess it is a bullshit site if you say it is.
    thanks for the link to the bs site Whale.com
    I didn’t know about that one. Seems like this BS site is stacked with MDs who are critical of vaccines. I guess if it doesn’t fit your thinking it is bs.
    i would like to see your source that said the Baxter vaccines were not distributed. If naturalnews.com said it was shipped to 18 countries than someone is not telling the truth.
    Bayer isn’t that the same company that use to do research in Nazi Germany?
    excuse me for mixing up a drug w/a vaccine. I guess that makes me a real idiot. Always easier to attack the messenger than the message.
    Hey if you don’t believe me read the warning vaccine inserts on how they do cause sterility, cancer, death

  58. #58 Chris
    September 3, 2011

    What message?

    Seroiusly, SH, why did you choose to try to educate us from this old article? Why do you think your barely literate incoherent ramblings are so valuable?

    So how are you faring with that whole lawsuit against Boiron that oscillococcinum is worthless? I know that Hahnemann wrote in his Organon that remedies became stronger when they were more diluted, but he never proved it.

  59. #59 Chris
    September 3, 2011

    What message are you giving us, SH? That you are barely literate and not coherent?

  60. #60 TBruce
    September 3, 2011

    i would like to see your source that said the Baxter vaccines were not distributed.

    Here it is. The seasonal virus sample was contaminated and then distributed. A vaccine was developed from it and found to be defective in routine testing. All work was stopped and the vaccine was not distributed.

    If naturalnews.com said it was shipped to 18 countries than someone is not telling the truth.

    Naturalnews.com NOT telling the truth? No way!

    excuse me for mixing up a drug w/a vaccine. I guess that makes me a real idiot.

    Let me elaborate. Anyone can mix things up if they’re talking about stuff they know little or nothing about. However, you claim all sorts of knowledge about homeopathy, vaccines and other medical issues – but you don’t know the difference between a blood component product and a vaccine? I’d say that makes you a real idiot.

  61. #61 Samuel Hahnemann
    September 3, 2011

    Yeah, no way naturalnews.com could be telling the truth
    below is the link you provided – Wikipedia entry for Baxter int.
    “in 2008 the company supplied contaminated heparin;
    in 2009 lethal H5N1 avian flu virus was delivered to laboratories across Europe mixed with seasonal influenza vaccines;”

    Am I missing something how is this not distributed?

    “lethal to 60% – H5N1 in Bexar vaccines delivered to 18 countries impossible to “accidently” show up in a vaccine and you are wrong it was distributed as shown in the source you sited.

  62. #62 Samuel Hahnemann
    September 3, 2011

    The idea that modern medicine is somehow superior science and that everything else is quackery is based on a limited minded programming that doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.
    What do you think has more testing a drug rushed to market w/no long term safety data and a rubber stamped approval by the industry-stacked-friendly FDA or an herb that has a history of 5,000 years of safe and effective usage?
    My challenge stands.
    If anyone feels so strongly about giving these injections to pregnant women and 68+ injections to babies they should be willing to use themselves as a test case and volunteer to take the 68+injections given to babies, in an adult-sized adjusted dosage. ORAC R U game? If you are wrong about this being safe you bear a huge responsibility
    so it is only right that you do this to demonstrate the safety. Let me know when you will be starting these trials.

  63. #63 Narad
    September 3, 2011

    What do you think has more testing a drug rushed to market w/no long term safety data and a rubber stamped approval by the industry-stacked-friendly FDA or an herb that has a history of 5,000 years of safe and effective usage?

    Say, have you met Jacob?

  64. #64 Gray Falcon
    September 3, 2011

    Tell me, what did that ancient medicine do for smallpox?

  65. #65 lilady
    September 3, 2011

    There were a number of blood banks that removed clotting factors from donated blood and they proved to be lifesavers for hemophiliacs as well as other bleeding disorders such as *von Willebrand Disease (vWD)* Unfortunately, there were instances of hemophiliacs who used the blood factors before reliable blood testing for hepatitis C and the HIV became available and some hemophiliacs became infected. Some blood banks were sued by hemophiliacs for infected them with theses viruses.

    I checked into Sam’s slur against Bayer at the “Hoaxes and Urban Legends website and found this:

    “The following email is one such hoax. It claims that a drug called “FACTOR AID” or “FACTORED” manufactured by Bayer is infected with HIV and is spreading AIDS. The truth is that blood clotting agents known as “Factor VIII” were produced from donated blood and some such products were tainted with HIV before proper screening was introduced in the mid-1980s.

    HIV infections did result in many countries. However, current blood clotting agents made by Bayer are not made from donated blood (see Recombinant factor VIII), so there is no risk of HIV infections.”

    Of course Sam, who receives such emails purportedly implicating Bayer in the deliberately sale of tainted blood factors, immediately hits the “forward” button to send the email on. Perhaps Sam also saw the video on the internet or read Mike Adams Health Deranger’s commentary on the video that adds to the hoax.

    Sam, claiming innocence then states, “excuse me for mixing up a drug w/a vaccine. I guess that makes me a real idiot. Always easier to attack the messenger than the message.”

    Well Sam in the 1980’s there was a vaccine manufactured from human blood. It was the first subunit viral vaccine developed in the United States and was manufactured from the surface antigen of (shudders) gay men who were infected with the hepatitis B virus. It was called **Heptavax B vaccine** and it was clinically tested within the gay population of New York City…people who volunteered to be guinea pigs for the sake of science. It was administered to millions of health care workers and other people at risk (sex partners and household contacts of individuals already infected with the hepatitis B virus), for acquiring this chronic often deadly virus. Guess what Sam, there has never been a documented case of HIV, hepatitis b or any other blood borne pathogens being transmitted by the Heptavax B vaccine.

    * My sister who has vWD Type II received Factor VIII and von Willebrand Factor (VWF) via IV infusion when it was derived from blood…it saved her life and she didn’t get infected with HIV.

    ** My son received the Heptavax B vaccine in 1985, never got infected and had high immunity against the virus until his death nineteen years later.

    “Hey if you don’t believe me read the warning vaccine inserts on how they do cause sterility, cancer, death”

    Let me fix that sentence for you Sam:

    Hey if you don’t believe me read up on the diseases and read up up on the vaccines that prevent these disease and how the diseases do cause sterility (mumps vaccine), cancer (hepatitis B vaccine, HPV vaccine), death (all the recommended childhood vaccines, recommended adult vaccines and “travel” vaccines).

  66. #66 herr doktor bimler
    September 3, 2011

    european doctors will use nature first.

    Now that really is bullshit.

  67. #67 augustine
    September 3, 2011

    Falcon

    Tell me, what did that ancient medicine do for smallpox?

    You tell me how many people in the world did NOT get the small pox vaccine during its extinction in the world?

    I just want to see if the numbers match up.

  68. #68 Samuel Hahnemann
    September 3, 2011

    i am sorry i am wasting my time with a bunch of losers that will not debate me seriously but can only attack me personally or use the very scientific rebuttal “that’s bullshit”
    Challenge any of my info. the person who said that their beloved baxter made an honest mistake provided a link that supported what -I- said so that is hardly a rebuttal just a lame attempt to put frosting on a pile of sh*t!
    go ahead ingest mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde and tell me this is what people need to be healthy. prove to me that this isn’t giving people cancer-YOU CAN’T!!!!! give rats these substance I guarantee they will get cancer and everything else! then claim how scientific you are.
    excuse me for stooping to your level but the only bs here is from those who are trying to push their poisons on us.

  69. #69 Chris
    September 3, 2011

    SH, you’d find people will debate you when you learn to write coherently, and actually support your statements with evidence.

  70. #70 Samuel Hahnemann
    September 3, 2011

    I would like to tell you what one could do for smallpox but i might get swat teamed for practicing medicine without a license. You think I’m kidding-I am not!
    I am 62 years old and have never done a pharmaceutical drug in my adult life-so know that there are safe, effective alternatives.
    We didn’t vaccinate our 2 kids who are now in their 20s. the number of times they took antibiotics or any drugs I could count on half a hand. My father avoided all drugs even aspirins. He died at 92. We all are far better off for trusting in God and not M.D.s and their dangerous drugs and surgeries. Those family members who did put trust in MDs are either dead or VERY unhealthy from side effects. Doctors killed my mother and my brother-in-law with their safe, scientific drugs. They gave my mom cancer when they “practiced” their “safe” medicine on her with unopposed estrogen. Opps they didnt relize that everyone getting unoppossed estogen (without progesterone) was also getting cancer. Cervical cancer in her early 70s. Amputation, morphine and a year of suffering before she passed. I’ll spare you the eqally horrible death of my brother in law directly caused by your safe scientific drugs.

  71. #71 lilady
    September 3, 2011

    I’m going way out on a limb here about Sam’s rant against Baxter and “suggest” that Sam is a regular reader of:

    Alex Jones Infowars:

    Journalist Fired over Flu Pandemic Lawsuit

    The “journalist” is Jane Burgermeister a real nut case from Austria, who first made the allegations of a world wide conspiracy to infect people with H5N1 virus and the deliberate contamination of influenza vaccine by Baxter.

    Most of the CAM websites have already taken down her videos but there is a video on You Tube:

    Jane Burgermeister-The Turning Point

    It seems Burgermeister who has instituted lawsuits against the U.N. and many governments is facing some “hard time” in an Austrian prison.

    (I have a rather long posting stuck in moderation for Sam regarding vaccines and blood factors) I’m not too surprised that Sam is locked into conspiracy theories and woo medicine, now that I know his “sources” (viral emails and Alex Jones).

  72. #72 Andrew
    September 3, 2011

    “i am sorry i am wasting my time with a bunch of losers that will not debate me seriously but can only attack me personally or use the very scientific rebuttal “that’s bullshit””

    When all you provide is your unsupported word, and you name yourself after a famous profiteering quack, what do you expect, unquestioned adoration?

  73. #73 Samuel Hahnemann
    September 3, 2011

    all you got is to call people names (nutcase, conspiracy theorist). back it up with taking the 68+ baby vaccines in an adult dosage, to demonstrate the safety, then you will have some credibility to talk.
    How do you dispute that even Baxter admits to delivering the vaccines with the contaminated deadly H5N1? this was impossible to happen accidentally and even Baxter admits they did it. no penalty for Baxter for nearly “accidentally” killing 60% of the earth’s population. Instead they were rewarded with very lucrative contracts to product H1N1 vaccines for the WHO. can you explain this to me as other mentioned on this sight i am not too bright. how do you almost kill 60% of the earth population and then get no penalty and instead get rewarded with billion dollar contract? Do you really know who you are defending here?

    I listened to the link from Jane Burgermeister. Rather than just dismissing her as a nut case what specifically did you not agree with. The fact that she is being harrassed by authorities doesn’t mean she is wrong.
    In Detriot a women was swat teamed for choosing to not give her daughter a dangerous drug-that it turned out she didn’t need after all. Just because medical goons are swat teaming anyone who doesn’t go along with your medical fascism.

  74. #74 TBruce
    September 3, 2011

    SH:

    The part of the reference you so gleefully quote is in error. If you scroll down the page, the paragraph about Baxter clearly states that a viral sample was contaminated and distributed, not a vaccine. For more information, try here.

    Incidentally, cervical cancer is not caused by estrogen replacement. Just thought you should know.

  75. #75 herr doktor bimler
    September 3, 2011

    I am 62 years old and have never done a pharmaceutical drug in my adult life

    Can’t help wondering how much experience Samuel Hahnemann actually has with doctors in Europe, to be claiming so blithely that they “will use nature first”.

  76. #76 Samuel Hahnemann
    September 3, 2011

    GOT PEANUT ALLERGIES?
    SEARCH AMISH DON’T HAVE PEANUT ALLERGIES UNLESS THEY ARE VACCINATED
    NOW 2% OF US CHILDREN HAVE PEANUT ALLERGIES. VACCINES USE PEANUT OIL AS AN ADJUVANT. NO PROOF JUST SAYING…
    US HAS DROPPED TO 40TH IN THE WORLD IN INFANT MORTALITY.
    MAYBE THEY HAVE ANOTHER VACCINE FOR THAT~!
    FOR THE GUY WHO MALIGNS MY NAME SAKE, AGAIN MORE NAME CALLING. SEE MY POST ABOVE DOCUMENTING 1% DEATH RATE USING HOMEOPATHY DURING THE 1918 FLU PANDEMIC VS 30% DEATH W/ALLOPATHIC. BY THEIR FRUITS YOU SHALL KNOW THEM-NOT BECAUSE OF YOUR CHILD-LIKE, NARROW MINDED NAME CALLING.

    I AM STILL WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO TAKE UP MY OFFER

  77. #77 Andrew
    September 3, 2011

    “NO PROOF” – I’m not surprised.

  78. #78 Krebiozen
    September 3, 2011

    Samuel Hahnemann,
    I think your caps lock is stuck on.

    I guess if it doesn’t fit your thinking it is bs.

    You have to understand that we have heard the same claims a hundred times before, and they are all either lies, distortions, half truths or misinterpretations of the truth. I have spent too much of my time looking into these allegations, and in every case I find they are baseless. It gets a bit wearing when yet another person pops up with the same tired old unsubstantiated nonsense, and starts insulting us when we point this out.

    By the way, babies are not given 68 vaccines, though I suppose if you added every vaccine that might be given to someone from birth to 18 years old, assumed they got a flu vaccine every year and counted MMR and DTaP as 3 vaccines each it might add to 68, but an 18-year-old is hardly a baby.

    The amounts of mercury, formaldehyde and aluminum in vaccines are tiny – did you know that a single drop of water weighs about 35,000 micrograms, and the largest amount of mercury in any vaccine was 25 micrograms (in 50 micrograms of thimerosal). There is at most 0.1 mg of formaldehyde in any vaccine. There is 3 mg (100 mmol) of formaldehyde in every liter of any normal person’s blood produced from normal metabolism. As for aluminum, anyone with normal kidney function is perfectly capable of excreting vastly more aluminum than there is in any vaccine. It is ridiculous to suggest these amounts of these substances will cause cancer in rats or humans.

    I would happily accept the full childhood vaccination program, scaled up for my weight, over a period of 18 years just as children get them, if you paid for them and paid me the $10,000 at the end. However, I suspect you want someone to take them all at once, which might possibly amount to a toxic dose of some constituents. Would you be prepared to consume all the “harmless” supplements, herbal medicines or even homeopathic remedies you have consumed over the past 18 years all at once?

  79. #79 Instructions
    September 3, 2011

    Here’s how adult conversation works:

    If you make a claim, it’s your job to provide evidence – until you do, there’s no reason to take you seriously.

    Responding to requests by saying that it’s someone else’s job to provide evidence for your case, or using CAPITAL letters is not providing evidence for your claim – it’s providing evidence that you’re not serious.

  80. #80 herr doktor bimler
    September 3, 2011

    i am sorry i am wasting my time with a bunch of losers that will not debate me seriously

    And yet he persists here, against his will! I can only suppose that Orac is coercing him to comment here, through some form of blackmail or mind-control.

  81. #81 Chris
    September 3, 2011

    Or perhaps the solvent in his homeopathic remedies is ethanol.

  82. #82 Militant Agnostic
    September 3, 2011

    herr doktor bimler

    Orac is coercing him to comment here, through some form of blackmail or mind-control.

    Must be black mail. I doubt that even a super computer could control something so tiny and closed.

  83. #83 herr doktor bimler
    September 3, 2011

    article entitled “Homeopathy In Influenza- A Chorus Of Fifty In Harmony” by W. A. Dewey, MD that appeared in the Journal of the American Institute of Homeopathy in 1920.

    That citation is particularly convincing: A list of testimonials, from homeopathists, elicited by an homeopath, about the success of homeopathy.
    The rationale seems to be that the more you dilute the evidence with imagination, the more convincing it becomes.

  84. #84 sh
    September 3, 2011

    What now you have rules about when I can use capital letters.
    I can not believe you guys. This will be my last post, this site is a waste of time. I will no longer cast pearls before swine.
    I am not a vaccine denier. I think there is some verifiable benefits that can be demonstrated in history. However as many have pointed out I am not an expert but I do think that it doesn’t take a rock scientist to know that something is very wrong with our health system when cancer, heart disease and diabetes is off the charts. I am not a doctor nor an expert on drugs. I just think we are doing way too many vaccines and that a whole number of very questionable ingredients in vaccines and their effect need to be addressed. I did read the tests they did on thermerisol and how it is metabolized out of the body. However as person mentioned above not everyone can metabolize and eliminate this dangerous toxic waste efficiently.
    I know that petro chemicals tend to be stored in fat cells and are harder to eliminate.
    I am going to sponsor a race for the cause. Forget race for the cure I want to know why everybody is getting cancer. DON’T YOU? The prevalence of toxic materials everywhere is strongly suspect. Do you want to argue for injecting even more poisons in babies and pregnant moms? Just because the drug companies say it is safe, I don’t believe them and everyone should be very skeptical and questioning of their motives. Why can’t they make “clean” vaccines w/ non toxic ingredients? That is my question to anyone.
    are we overdoing it with all the childhood vaccines-I think so. these are not as safe as may be portrayed as and may be implicated in our rapidly rising childhood mortality rate.

  85. #85 Chris
    September 3, 2011

    So how long do your conversations with people in real life last? Do you ramble incoherent accusations like you did here? Do they hang around long when you start shouting and telling they have to prove what you said?

  86. #86 A geologist
    September 3, 2011

    it doesn’t take a rock scientist to know that something is very wrong with our health system

    Hey, leave me out of this.

  87. #87 herr doktor bimler
    September 3, 2011

    cancer, heart disease and diabetes is off the charts

    This puts me in mind of one of those Renaissance maps, but instead of “Here be Dragons & Tygeres” at the edges, warning the reckless mariner against cancer, heart disease & diabetes.

  88. #88 Narad
    September 3, 2011

    I don’t believe them and everyone should be very skeptical and questioning of their motives. Why can’t they make “clean” vaccines w/ non toxic ingredients?

    Clearly, you are just another germ-denialist and infection promoter. When’s the next “clean” pox party?

  89. #89 Matthew Cline
    September 3, 2011

    I would like to tell you what one could do for smallpox but i might get swat teamed for practicing medicine without a license. You think I’m kidding-I am not!

    Oh, wow, that’s a convincing excuse!

  90. #90 TBruce
    September 3, 2011

    SH:

    I don’t know if you’re still with us, but I have a comment stuck in moderation which disputes a couple of things you claim.

    Regarding my Wikipedia reference, the sentence you cherry-picked is incorrect. If you read further on, the Baxter situation is explained as I have stated. A reference in the article elaborates on this and makes it clear that the material sent was a seasonal flu virus culture contaminated with bird flu virus. No vaccine was distributed.

    You also blame estrogen replacement for your mother’s cervical cancer. There is no association between cervical cancer and estrogen replacement therapy.

    As for the rest of your comments, you might get a better reception if you dial down the Crayzee.

  91. #91 Militant Agnostic
    September 3, 2011

    I want to know why everybody is getting cancer.

    Everybody? – If this is your experience it doesn’t speak well for the herbs you and your friends are using.

  92. #92 Militant Agnostic
    September 3, 2011

    You also blame estrogen replacement for your mother’s cervical cancer. There is no association between cervical cancer and estrogen replacement therapy.

    Apparently SH is unaware that cervical cancer is caused by all-natural viruses.

  93. #93 Todd W.
    September 3, 2011

    @sh

    Why can’t they make “clean” vaccines w/ non toxic ingredients?

    First, define “toxic ingredients”. Keep in mind that the dose is important. For each ingredient you consider to be toxic, please specify the dose at which toxic effects begin.

    Second, if you want to know why the various ingredients are used, I suggest you take some chemistry classes to learn how they work, what their purpose is and how they are diluted out of the final product.

    As for the Baxter contaminated virus material bit, I suggest you try reading the linked article again. Here is the text:

    In early 2009, samples of viral material supplied by Baxter International to a series of European laboratories were found to be contaminated with live Avian flu virus (Influenza A virus subtype H5N1).[18] Samples of the less harmful seasonal flu virus (subtype H3N2) were found to be mixed with the deadly H5N1 strain after a vaccine made from the material killed test animals in a lab in the Czech Republic. Though the serious consequences were avoided by the lab in the Czech Republic,[19] Baxter claimed the failed controls over the distribution of the virus were ‘stringent’ and there was ‘little chance’ of the lethal virus harming humans.[20]

    Baxter distributed viral material, not vaccines. Labs in the recipient countries used the material to produce vaccines. One of these labs, in testing the resultant vaccine that they produced using the viral material sent by Baxter, discovered that it was tainted. Vaccines made using the viral material were never administered to humans.

    Before you continue any of your diatribes, I strongly recommend that you a) brush up on your reading comprehension, b) learn proper grammar so people will take your posts slightly more seriously, c) get your information from fact-based sources, rather than conspiracy mongering drivel distributors like Infowars and d) learn how to count (no child gets 68 vaccines, let alone all at one time).

  94. #94 LW
    September 4, 2011

    How do you dispute that even Baxter admits to delivering the vaccines with the contaminated deadly H5N1? this was impossible to happen accidentally and even Baxter admits they did it. no penalty for Baxter for nearly “accidentally” killing 60% of the earth’s population.

    So you believe not only that this happened (which, as has been explained, it didn’t), but that it happened deliberately. 

    How do you think that was going to work?  It’s not like they were going to be able to vaccinate the entire human population, with 60% falling dead in the wake of the shot. No matter how homicidal and powerful you believe Bayer to be, people wouldn’t keep lining up for the shots under those conditions. No, the only way Bayer could “accidentally” kill 60% of the Earth’s population would be to trigger an epidemic via the vaccine. 

    How, exactly, would Bayer expect to profit from doing so? The social upheaval that would follow a lethal pandemic like that would destroy monetary systems worldwide (read about the effect of the Black Death — which only killed 30% of Europeans — for some idea of the results). It’d be a bit hard for Bayer to profit when its ill-gotten gains turned into bits of colored paper. Not to mention the fact that the epidemic would almost certainly be traced back to them and the management of Bayer would be lynched on the spot by hysterical mobs.  Not to mention that they themselves would be at risk of dying of the disease. 

    Have you ever actually thought through this scenario?    

  95. #95 LW
    September 4, 2011

    Sorry, Baxter, not Bayer. It’s too late at night to be commenting.

  96. #96 lilady
    September 4, 2011

    @ LW: “Sorry, Baxter, not Bayer. It’s too late at night to be commenting.”

    The reason you got confused is that Sam did make a comment about Bayer and vaccines tainted with the HIV virus…when disabused of that factoid he segued in Baxter International:

    “search Bayer knowingly sold HIV contaminated vaccines
    search Biological weapon? Live avian flu virus placed in
    Baxter vaccine materials sent to 18 countries

    Posted by: Samuel Hahnemann | September 3, 2011 2:17 PM”

    Sam was then corrected about Bayer not selling vaccines but developing of methods to separate certain blood factors (Factor VIII) for hemophiliacs and other bleeding disorders.

    I wrote a long posting about this…probably messed up again due to poor techie skills…but here is the gist of my “lost posting”:

    I always check certain web sites that validate or debunk “certain” emails and I found where Sam most likely got this factoid from at the Hoaxes and Urban Legends website regarding a viral email that slurred Bayer for developing of processes to remove and combine donor blood Factor VIII.

    Before the development of effective blood screening tests for the HIV virus, certain units of blood caused transmission of the HIV to the blood recipient; Tennis Champ Arthur Asch was one such person and he died of complications from AIDS related to a contaminated unit of blood.

    Hemophiliacs and people with other bleeding disorder such as *von Willebrand Disease (vWD)* who received Factor VIII as life saving treatment were at greater risk due to the extraction of Factor VIII from pooled blood donations. Ryan White a young hemophiliac was a person who contracted AIDS through Factor VIII being contaminated with the HIV virus.

    Certain blood banks which produced the Factor VIII before reliable HIV testing of the blood supply were sued…Bayer was never sued and never implicated in distributing (unknowingly or deliberately) contaminated Factor VIII.

    Here is the article from the Hoaxes and Urban Legends website about this “viral” email:

    Hoaxes and Urban Legends: Bayer drug contains HIV
    Whenever you receive an email that urges you to immediately forward that mail to everyone you know, there is a very good chance the email is a hoax. Please take the time to verify the message by doing a Google search before you send it on to anyone else. In most cases when you take an arbitrary sentence from the message and google for it you’ll end up with many hoax warning pages as the result.

    The following email is one such hoax. It claims that a drug called “FACTOR AID” or “FACTORED” manufactured by Bayer is infected with HIV and is spreading AIDS. The truth is that blood clotting agents known as “Factor VIII” were produced from donated blood and some such products were tainted with HIV before proper screening was introduced in the mid-1980s. HIV infections did result in many countries. However, current blood clotting agents made by Bayer are not made from donated blood (see Recombinant factor VIII), so there is no risk of HIV infections.

    Furthermore, the first hepatitis B vaccine **(Heptavax)** was developed using the hepatitis B surface antigen from homosexual men who were chronically infected with the virus. When it came to field trials to test the safety and efficacy of Heptavax, it was the homosexual community in New York City that offered themselves up as human guinea pigs, for the sake of science.

    Haptavax vaccine was used very effectively for a number of years to protect health care workers and others (partners and household members of infected people) who were at very high risk to contract the virus. In spite of the millions of people immunized…there has never been a reported case of the vaccine infecting any recipient with HIV, hepatitis B or other blood-borne pathogens.

    * My sister who has vWD received Factor VIII and von Willibrand Factor (vWF)…both manufactured from pooled blood and it saved her life

    ** My son at age nine received Heptavax vaccine and never got infected with any pathogen and had a high titer against Hepatitis B until his death nineteen years later.

    I think that the “viral” email is where Sam got this misinformation about Bayer and AIDS in vaccine and rather than researching it on the internet or perhaps at the library…he just hit the “forward” button to all his friends who are just as uneducated and just as gullible as he is.

  97. #97 TBruce
    September 4, 2011

    The people at Baxter don’t care about profit. They all went to Evil Medical School. It’s what they do!

  98. #98 Matthew Cline
    September 4, 2011

    Baxter, like all of Big Pharma, thinks like the Underpants Gnomes:

    1) Kill 60% of humanity.
    2) ?????
    3) Profit!

  99. #99 augustine
    September 4, 2011

    Todd W.

    no child gets 68 vaccines, let alone all at one time

    No child has been harmed by 10,000 vaccines let alone one vaccine.

    Parents of children should not be given a choice. The children’s health decisions are the rights of the medical societies enforced by the governments of the world.

    Therefore, since there really should be no choice, then education should not be aimed at informed consent. It should be aimed at getting maximum compliance without invoking government means.

    If someone starts giving “education(we call it misinformation)” that could possibly lead to a second alternative choice then we should enact the government forces, regulatory agencies, political bodies, and medical societies to silence this second alternative.

    But it’s really the people’s choice. Wink! Wink!

  100. #100 Erwin Alber
    October 3, 2011

    As far as I am concerned, vaccination is an organised criminal enterprise dressed up as disease prevention by means of junk science. Vaccines have never prevented anything apart from health, sanity and common sense.

    http://www.healthsentinel.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=8&Itemid=55

  101. #101 Reuben
    October 3, 2011

    @Erwin

    You’re right. Millions of people are in on the conspiracy. Each of them has been fooled into thinking that vaccines have eradicated diseases like smallpox and rinderpest. They have also fooled the rest of humanity into not being able to see the obvious outbreaks of smallpox out there. And, out of all those millions, not a single one has had the cojones to come forth with a check stub, a bank deposit receipt, a picture, a text message, an email, a letter, or even a post-it note whereby Big Pharma (or the Illuminati, Reptilians or whatever) tell them what to do. Quite the organized criminal enterprise, if you ask me.

    Better than the drug cartels, which have been found out and have had many of their heads put in jail (or cut off, hahahaha).

    What I’m saying is that there is not a shred of evidence of what you’ve just written, and that link of yours… Laughable. I can manipulate data with Excel as well as the next guy.

    What I can’t do is deny the science.

  102. #102 Chris
    October 3, 2011

    There is Mr. Alber true to form resurrecting an old thread. Oh, look! He is bringing a series of graphs that have very little meaning! Death is not only bad outcome.

    Here is an example of Mr. Alber believing a graph is true because it conforms to his anti-vax notions, even though it has been badly altered by MS Paint: Erwin Alber and VINE: Intellectually Bankrupt. Where he responds with:

    “People have different takes on reality, and sometimes some of them approximate, or even match, actual reality. To me the graph is real, to you it is a fake. To each his own”

    Do you think that Mr. Alber, blackheart and Th1Th2 all live in the same town on Htrae?

  103. #103 Reuben
    October 3, 2011

    @Chris

    Yes, only one village is missing its idiots.

    That said, I’d add Jake Crosby to the mix since he seems to desperately want to become bizzaro epidemiologist, to whom OR <1.0 show increased probability of being exposed and everything OUTSIDE the confidence interval is fair game.

  104. #104 Denice Walter
    October 3, 2011

    @ Chris and Reuben:

    If all the idiots cluster in one place, we might have to ask- is it purely chance? or is there some reason for the cluster- either something that causes idiocy itself or causes them to flock there- like a juice bar?

  105. #105 Th1Th2
    October 3, 2011

    What I can’t do is deny the science.

    This is coming from a germ denialist. I see.

  106. #106 Chris
    October 3, 2011

    Denice and Reuben, have you heard about Htrae?

    It is also known as Bizarro World, which is a cube where everyone does the opposite of earth (which explains the backwards spelling). It is from the Superman comics.

    As you may notice, the main anti-science folks are not just contrary, but live on a completely different planet.

  107. #107 Denice Walter
    October 3, 2011

    @ Chris:

    I know. However my vocation as evangelist requires that I must present directionality to the unseen lurkers who seek enlightenment in these parts whenever apropo. I shall spare you the diagramming.

  108. #108 Chris
    October 3, 2011

    I see. Just as long as we don’t have a Bizarro version of Lord Draconis.

  109. #109 Anonymous
    May 15, 2012

    Your Disclaimer says this:
    “In addition, Orac has been funded over the last decade by institutional funds, the Department of Defense, the National Cancer Institute, and various cancer charities. For the first time ever, in 2011 Orac received a little bit of pharmaceutical money in the form of a seed grant. Unfortunately, it’s not enough money for his lab to live on and will soon be gone. What that means, though, is that for the next several months Orac will no longer be able to use his favorite joke before talks, namely that no pharmaceutical company is interested enough in his research to want to give him any money. Even with that little bit of pharma lucre, like most biomedical scientists in academia, Orac must still beg the NIH and other granting agencies for the money to keep his lab going. Being a “pharma shill” doesn’t seem to pay as much as supporters of alt-med think it does.”

    If you admit to being paid by Big Pharma, it is biased so why should we believe it?

  110. #110 Lawrence
    May 15, 2012

    @Anon – I don’t think you understand the words coming out of your mouth…..or the gist of what Orac actually wrote…..

  111. #111 Matt F
    May 15, 2012

    @anon
    I really think you need to work on your reading comprehension and you detection of sarcasm.

  112. #112 Kelly M Bray
    May 15, 2012

    @Anon, do you think the fortune Mercola makes shilling his fake remedies might make him biased also?

  113. #113 Anonymous
    May 17, 2012

    Kelly Bray: Mercola selling products is also biased because he convinces you of something in an article, and then at the bottom of the page he offers to sell it to you, and he makes money off of it. And this man, I question the motives of ANYONE who admits being “pharma shill”. Look up what a shill is, they get paid to convince people on behalf of who is employing them. I imagine he would WANT people to take him seriously and not question that he may be writing in the best interest of the Pharma company/companies that pay him.

  114. #114 Anonymous
    May 17, 2012

    In response to Kelly Bray: Mercola selling his products is also biased because he convinces you of something in an article, and then at the bottom of the page he offers to sell it to you, and he makes money off of it. And as with this man, I question the motives of ANYONE who admits being “pharma shill”. Look up what a shill is, they get paid to convince people on behalf of who is employing them. I imagine he would WANT people to take him seriously and not question that he may be writing in the best interest of the Pharma company/companies that pay him.

  115. #115 Anonymous
    May 17, 2012

    (sorry about the double post)

  116. #116 Lawrence
    May 17, 2012

    @Anon- there is a huge difference between receiving a funding grant for research & being paid to go out and convince people of a certain type of view…..

  117. #117 Kelly M Bray
    May 17, 2012

    Hey anon, I knew what the word “shill” meant in the third grade. I know how to use it, and you know how to misuse it. In the end, it’s not always who is doing the research, it’s how they are doing the research.

  118. #118 W. Kevin Vicklund
    May 18, 2012

    It’s amusing that anon is complaining about Orac being a pharma shill on a post that was written a year and a half before Orac received any money from any pharmaceutical company.

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