Respectful Insolence

Beware, North Carolina. Beware. Your law has become quack-friendly to the point where doctors can do almost anything.

Why, you may reasonably wonder, am I saying this? The answer is what appears to be the end of a long and painful story of cancer quackery and anti-vaccine celebrity that has tainted North Carolina for years now. Do you remember Dr. Rashid Buttar? Regular readers know who he is, as he’s been a recurring character on this blog since the very beginning. Most recently, he figured prominently in the case of Desiree Jennings, the young woman who claimed that the flu vaccine caused a case of dystonia but was almost certainly suffering from a psychogenic disorder. Unfortunately for Ms. Jennings, she decided to seek out Buttar for “treatment” of her “vaccine injury. He subjected her to all manner of his usual woo, and–miracle of miracles!–she was miraculously cured!

Before this case, though, Dr. Buttar had been under investigation by the North Carolina State Medical Board for a variety of misconduct involving “unconventional treatments” to which he subjects autistic children and cancer patients, all for lots of money to line his pockets. At the time, over two years ago, Dr. Buttar lashed out at the medical board, characterizing it as a “rabid dog.” Ultimately, the medical board recommended restricting Dr. Buttar’s license to prohibit him from treating children or patients with cancer. Personally, I thought this was too mild a sanction and thought Buttar should have been “struck off” (lose his medical license in British lingo–you know, just like Andrew Wakefield is–hopefully–about to be struck off), but it was a start. Still, how does one justify letting a physician keep his license after he charged dying cancer patients tens, even hundreds, of thousands of dollars for ineffective “cures” for cancer, virtually all of which were based on the idea of treating “heavy metal toxicity”? I was also frustrated that Dr. Buttar could get away with what he got away with for so long unencumbered by regulations, the state medical board, or, apparently, any hint of morality. At the time, nearly two years ago, I had assumed that the story was over. I was unhappy, but at least Dr. Buttar couldn’t victimize cancer patients or autistic children any more.

I was wrong:

Dr. Rashid Buttar, whose alternative medical practice in Huntersville has been under scrutiny by the N.C. Medical Board for a decade, has accepted a reprimand from the licensing agency.

But Buttar, who was facing potential restrictions to his license, instead can continue offering unconventional treatments as long as he asks patients to sign a form acknowledging his practice is outside the mainstream.

“This was a witch hunt from the beginning,” said Buttar, 44, whose practice attracts patients from 42 states and 37 countries. “They were trying to discredit me … but I didn’t do anything wrong.”

The consent order, signed Friday, marks the end of a battle that Buttar had vowed to take to the U.S. Supreme Court. He said he has spent “hundreds of thousands of dollars” defending himself against the board’s allegations that he exploited patients by charging exorbitant fees for unproven therapies that didn’t work and by arbitrarily ordering expensive tests to make more money.

In recent years, Buttar led a successful effort by the N.C. Integrative Medical Society to get legislators to change state law to make it friendlier to practitioners of alternative medicine.

Buttar had lots of money, lots of political connections, and lots of persistence. He was willing to go to the Supreme Court, or so he said. When I heard about this consent order, I wondered why Buttar would agree to such an order rather than pursue his case, particularly in light of his bravado beforehand. After all, thanks to changes in the law, Buttar was actually in a position of far more strength than the state medical board:

Mansfield, the board’s attorney, said a change in state law, which took effect in October, was partly the reason. The law, one of those that Buttar had pushed for, prevents the medical board from disciplining a physician for using non-traditional or experimental treatments unless it can prove they are ineffective or more harmful that prevailing treatments.

Most of the patient complaints related to the cost of multiple treatments rather than to physical harm. In fact, the cancer patients had already undergone chemotherapy, which is known for its severe side effects.

I hate this false equivalency. Chemotherapy can have severe side effects, that is certain. However, it also has the capacity to cure various forms of cancer and to prolong life in the cases of cancer that is not curable. The side effects are usually (although not always) considered to be a price worth paying for the benefits. In the case of quackery such as what Dr. Buttar plied (in my opinion), any harm that occurs is done without hope of benefit. Worse, the law as written handcuffs the medical board. A lot of the nonsense that “practitioners” like Buttar use has never been formally tested, allowing quacks to claim that the board can’t “prove” that their woo is ineffective. It’s a loophole a battleship full of quacks could steam through, and that’s exactly what Dr. Buttar did. In reality, what the standard should be one standard for every treatment in medicine, namely that it should have strong evidence that it is efficacious and safe, not a favored status for “non-traditional” treatments whereby anything goes unless science can prove them to be unsafe or ineffective. As for experimental therapies, they should not be administered outside the auspices of an IRB-approved clinical trial or under carefully regulated “compassionate care” programs. If a treatment is experimental, the run-of-the-mill practitioner not involved in clinical research should not even think of using it.

But back to why Dr. Buttar might have agreed to this consent decree. The answer becomes obvious if you peruse the actual consent order. All it does is to reprimand Buttar and order him (1) to provide informed consent to his patients dictated by the board; (2) to obey all laws, as well as rules and regulations governing the practice of medicine; (3) notify the board if he changes his address; and (4) meet with the board periodically. In other words, Buttar got a slap on the wrist.

But it’s even worse than that. Peruse the attached “informed consent” documents. They are pathetic. That’s the only word I can think of that adequately describes them. Basically, they state that Dr. Buttar makes no claims for the efficacy of anything that he does. Granted, it does point out that Buttar sells his remedies in his office, which is a massive conflict of interest, one that is illegal in most states. It also points out that serious complications can occur from IV treatments. Even so, if I were to use an informed consent like this for surgery, for example, in which I “make no specific claims” that the surgery will do anything for the patient, sane practitioners would demand to know why I was allowed to do this operation. I ask why Dr. Buttar is permitted to practice his woo on unwitting patients.

Not surprisingly, Dr. Buttar is bragging. He’s holding up cases of patients who lived longer than expected under his woo and takes credit for it. He’s issuing self-serving press releases that say things like this:

“To have many of my treatments in a consent order with NO restrictions is nothing less than condoning and accepting these advanced forms of treatment. I insisted on this language and was not willing to accept anything less,” Dr. Buttar said. “My attorneys and I had prepared for this fight for the last 3 years. We were ready to go to trial before a real judge but the NCMB realized they had to avoid scrutiny in a real court of law, and had no choice but to abandon their prosecution.”

Dr. Buttar has committed years of his life to what he believes. He is the Medical Director of the Center for Advanced Medicine and Clinical Research in Huntersville, NC, founded in 1996 with the purpose of giving those with “untreatable” conditions a chance to recover.

[…]

With the NCMB investigation behind him, Dr. Buttar can now focus on the release of his first book, “The 9 Steps to Keep the Doctor Away,” due for release on June 1 and available at all major book stores. It’s another step toward realizing his goal of “making the change the world is waiting for,” a motto inscribed in larger-than-life-sized letters on the walls of his clinic.

Actually, all that Dr. Buttar appears to have devoted his life to is separating patients from their cash. Whenever I hear supporters of “alternative medicine” lament how much they are “persecuted” by the medical establishment, these days I can’t help but laugh. Some “Inquisition”!

One of the most controversial and difficult aspects of trying to make medicine more science-based is the question of how to enforce a minimal standard of care. This standard of care, in an ideal world, should be based on science and evidence, and state medical boards should be empowered to enforce this standard rapidly whenever a practitioner can’t even meet a minimal standard of using treatments based on sience and evidence. Such is clearly not the case in North Carolina, and, sadly, such is not the case in many states. With medicine being regulated at the state level, there are 50 state medical boards, each with different laws governing licensure requirements and standards for disciplining wayward physicians, our current system doesn’t even do a very good job of protecting the public from physicians who practice obvious quackery.

The reasons are many. Most state medical boards are underfunded and overburdened. This chronic underfunding means that state medical boards tend to be slow to react until and unless actual patient complaints are made and there is actual evidence of patient harm. Also, in my experience, state medical boards tend to prefer to go after physicians who misbehave in particularly egregious ways: alcoholic physicians or physicians suffering from other forms of substance abuse; physicians who sexually abuse patients; or physicians who are “prescription mills” for narcotics. These sorts of cases are relatively clear cut. They are easy for the public to understand. Most importantly such cases don’t force boards to make value judgments regarding the competence and practice of physicians to nearly the extent that prosecuting purveyors of unscientific medicine does. Prosecuting someone like Dr. Buttar, who not only has deep pockets and a willingness to use them but is willing to blur those lines with gusto exposed all these shortcomings of state medical boards. Worse, like many woo-meisters, Buttar had testimonials:

Many of Buttar’s patients came to his defense in 2008. Among them was Elrene Thomas of Lexington. When contacted Tuesday, she was pleased to hear that Buttar can continue to practice. A retired nurse, she went to him for treatment seven years ago when she learned her breast cancer had spread to her spine. Instead of going through chemotherapy and radiation again, she tried IV infusions five days a week for months and had hyperbaric oxygen therapy twice a day for several weeks. She paid Buttar’s center $100,000 and said it was worth it.

“I really feel like he saved my life,” said Thomas, 77. “I’m not healthy in that I have stage 4 (cancer), but I’m surviving and I’m doing all these things that he taught me to do. I believe in his treatment.”

$100,000 for IV infusisons over months plus hyperbaric oxygen chamber treatments? And “alt-med” mavens complain that chemotherapy is expensive! Some drugs can add up to $100,000, but many chemotherapy regimens are much less expensive than this. In addition, Thomas’s case says absolutely nothing about whether his methods “work.” As I’ve described again and again, breast cancer can differ biologically so much that there are outliers who can live for years with stage IV disease. In fact, patients with bone-only metastases and estrogen-receptor positive/HER2-neu negative tumors are the patients who tend to be these outliers. (I’d be willing to bet that Thomas’ tumor was ER(+) and HER2(-).) Among patients with stage IV disease, patients such as these have the best prognosis. Thomas can “believe” in this treatment as much as she wants (apparently to the tune of $100,000 and counting), but her belief is meaningless for evaluating whether the treatment works. Mrs. Thomas is simply another patient being taken advantage of for big bucks by Dr. Buttar.

The North Carolina State Medical Board did the right thing to go after Dr. Buttar. He had been practicing too long with impunity, peddling his “Buttar’s butter,” a “transdermal chelation” therapy, and separating desperate cancer patients from tens of thousands of dollars of their cash. Unfortunately, the board didn’t have the intestinal fortitude to take it all the way, no doubt thanks to the changes in the law that made their job of protecting patients from quacks virtually impossible now. In the battle between a woo-meister like Buttar and the medical board, unfortunately the medical board blinked first. It probably had little choice.

If I lived in North Carolina, I’d be very worried right now. Remember, Dr. Buttar is the guy who treated autistic children with urine therapy. If that doesn’t get his license yanked, nothing will.

Comments

  1. #1 Rene Najera
    April 7, 2010

    Yet, doctors who refuse to give “alternative” treatments are held as “close-minded” and “irrational” and sued for millions by people who think they know better. It’s ass backwards.

    I don’t wish harm on anyone very easily, but I am comforted in the fact that these people who claim to have benefited from his therapies will ultimately succumb to their disease. And they will probably do so in poverty from having to spend their lives’ savings on vitamins and urine injections.

    Sure, he gets to walk away with millions, but this universe is known for it’s sense of irony. It will come to him too.

  2. #2 Heidi Anderson
    April 7, 2010

    I am not comforted by the fact that people will succumb to their disease after visiting him, and it sounds heartless and cruel to think that.

    I live in South Carolina, and I hate the thought of this jackass practicing in a state where I have friends and family.

  3. #3 Lycanthrope
    April 7, 2010

    This news enraged me more than anything you’ve written about in a long time, Orac, and that’s saying something. This is one of the most flagrant examples of CAM being held to a far lower standard than evidence-based medicine that I’ve ever seen. I will never understand why some people are so critical of evidence-based medicine, demanding it be held to unreasonable or impossible standards, yet accept CAM unquestioningly. Haven’t they considered for a second why it’s “alternative” in the first place?

    One thing that particularly bothered me was the bit in Buttar’s new consent form stating that he makes no claims as to the effectiveness of any of his treatments. OF COURSE HE DOES! If he didn’t, he wouldn’t be offering them! But thanks to that nauseating bit of legalese, he can be held to the letter of the law instead of the spirit. Makes me furious…

  4. #4 Scott
    April 7, 2010

    The consent document is way BEYOND simply “pathetic” IMO. Some gems I found particularly striking:

    “the treatments and therapies that are to be provided by Dr. Buttar have not been proven effective by traditional research studies or conventional clinical trials” (emphasis added)

    Dr. Buttar makes no specific claims or representations that the treatments and therapies that he will be providing will be effective or cure the the condition or diagnosis” (emphasis in original)

    Or, to paraphrase,

    “I have no idea if this will work, I’m admitting I have no idea if this will work, but it’s truthy so I’ll charge you an arm and a leg for it anyway.”

  5. #5 tacroy
    April 7, 2010

    Wait, so what happens if the waiver you sign says that Dr. Buttar makes no claims as to the effectiveness of the treatment, but then Dr. Buttar does make claims as to the effectiveness of his treatment? Wouldn’t that make the waiver invalid?

  6. #6 eNeMeE
    April 7, 2010

    Bwuh. Arglefargle! Toast-spoon!

    Patients have sought the clinic out for multiple conditions, but the common denominator in all these patients was that they were toxic on one level or another. The philosophy of the clinic is that we detoxify the body of the 7 Toxicities as described by Dr. Buttar and then help the physiological system come back online.

    Dr. Buttar and the clinic have been blessed to have been able to help address the needs of patients suffering from a wide variety of illnesses, simply because the underlying cause of virtually all of these conditions involved one or more (usually multiple) of the 7 Toxicites. By effectively addressing these toxicities, substantial, sometimes even miraculous results have been achieved. However, this is not surprising having been witnessed time and again.

    “Simply by getting the ‘toxicities’ such as the persistent organic pollutants and the heavy metals out of the way, the system begins to start working the way God designed it to work. The problem isn’t the body. The problem is all the stuff that man has created in his environment that pollutes the body. Our job is to get this pollution out of the body and then support it as it starts to come back on line.”
    – Dr. Rashid A. Buttar

    …now that I’ve regained some of my mental faculties, how is that not claiming effectiveness?

    Or the claims made in this pdf.

    Well, I’m off to go get an ultrasound to try and figure out what’s wrong with my liver – I’d really like to kick this fucker in the ‘nads, at this point.

  7. #7 Jojo
    April 7, 2010

    From the consent form:

    The possible adverse effects of the treatments that I may receive from Dr. Buttar include, but are not limited to, infection, phlebitis, headaches, dizziness, hypoglycemia, electrolyte imbalance, mineral depletion, fatigue, kidney failure, or even death.

    I’m not sure which is crazier, that the medical board ended up settling for this garbage; or that patients will read this, sign it, and happily subject themselves to his treatments knowing this.

  8. #8 John Floyd, MD
    April 7, 2010

    As long as parents have autistic children and people develop terminal diseases, there will be charlatans to separate them from their money; if not Buttar then someone else. Federal and state politicians, who outrank the various state boards, generally have no scientific background and are quite willing to push for “inclusive” legislation for all sorts of unproven manipulations under the general heading of CAM (e.g. Tom Harkin of Iowa,) as the political support from these people is much easier for most politicians to understand than the actual science (or lack of it).

  9. #9 Rene Najera
    April 7, 2010

    @Heidy (#2)

    I am not comforted by the fact that people will succumb to their disease after visiting him, and it sounds heartless and cruel to think that.

    Heartless and cruel?

    Madam, I have been working hard, real hard, all my life to heal people through my work in the lab and as an epidemiologist. I have volunteered time, donated money. I have written extensively on all sorts of topics related to health based only on fact and evidence. I have answered questions with honesty and integrity. So I wash my hands if people still go to the snake oil salesmen. I did what I could. How is that heartless?

    In this age of communication and scientific enlightenment, if those people who go to Rashid Buttar succumb to their disease, IT’S THEIR OWN FAULT. They have been told, warned that his treatments are, at the very least, unproven. They won’t listen. So let them reap what they sow.

    Let all that have ears listen, and those who don’t, well… We need nature to take its course.

    It’s almost as pointless and ridiculous as feeling bad for people who flock to the coast when a hurricane is coming.

  10. #10 Mu
    April 7, 2010

    Dr. Buttar makes no specific claims or representations that the treatments and therapies that he will be providing will be effective or cure the the condition or diagnosis
    Pal has to rewrite his quack-Miranda warning. It’s no longer limited to dietary supplements, you can now use it even for medical treatments by licensed physicians.

  11. #11 Dan Weber
    April 7, 2010

    We still have alienation-of-affection laws in North Carolina, so if your spouse cheats on you with Dr. Buttars, you can sue his ass for millions of dollars.

  12. #12 mikerattlesnake
    April 7, 2010

    Perhaps North Carolina is looking to become Mike Adam’s fabled “Health Freedom Zone”. New state motto proposal: “Like Tijuana without quite so much kidnapping and stabbing.”

  13. #13 D. C. Sessions
    April 7, 2010

    The beauty of the NC law is the way it shifts the burden of proof. Everythign is legal unless there’s substantial evidence that it’s more harmful than beneficial.

    In effect, then, I could “cure” your cancer by driving nails into your eyeballs. Since there’s no evidence that this doesn’t cure cancer, and since a cure for cancer is worth going blind, I’m in the clear.

  14. #14 Todd W.
    April 7, 2010

    Anyone have a link to the NC law mentioned by Orac?

  15. #15 Matt P
    April 7, 2010

    Todd W.:

    The statute itself is here

    Look at section 90-14 through 90-14.13

    The bill that just passed that changed the statute is here.

  16. #16 Marc
    April 7, 2010

    I love the “inquisition” comment, Orac. I wonder how much bluster would be taken out of the alt-med lunatic fringe if they didn’t continually assume “being told they’re complete idiots” = persecution….

  17. #17 Todd W.
    April 7, 2010

    @Matt P

    Thanks. Will take a look.

  18. #18 Matt P.
    April 7, 2010

    The provision of NC law that protects CAM practitioners did not change this year. See the links in my previous comment.

    The provision that protects CAM practitioners is at Chapter 90, section 14, subsection (a)(6) (cited as section 90-14(a)(6)) of the North Carolina General Statutes:

    The Board shall have the power to [discipline] any person who has been found by the Board to have committed any of the following acts or conduct, or for any of the following reasons:

    (6) Unprofessional conduct, including, but not limited to, departure from, or the failure to conform to, the standards of acceptable and prevailing medical practice, or the ethics of the medical profession, irrespective of whether or not a patient is injured thereby, or the committing of any act contrary to honesty, justice, or good morals, whether the same is committed in the course of the licensee’s practice or otherwise, and whether committed within or without North Carolina. The Board shall not revoke the license of or deny a license to a person, or discipline a licensee in any manner, solely because of that person’s practice of a therapy that is experimental, nontraditional, or that departs from acceptable and prevailing medical practices unless, by competent evidence, the Board can establish that the treatment has a safety risk greater than the prevailing treatment or that the treatment is generally not effective.

  19. #19 Dr. Mary Johnson
    April 7, 2010

    “Everything is legal unless there’s substantial evidence that it’s more harmful than beneficial.”

    Yep, DC. You got that right. And PUHLEASE don’t get me started on the NC Board’s deep sense of ethics or morality. They fancy themselves one of the most “progressive” medical boards in the nation, but EVERYTHING is political. And when it comes to bad medicine, between Thom Mansfield and Roy Cooper, both doctors and patients in NC are SCREWED.

    The man has brought in MILLIONS with this woo. That makes him an ECONOMIC ASSET to the state. And that is the ONLY thing that matters.

    OBTW, take it from me, the VERY LAST THING ON EARTH that the North Carolina Medical Board can be likened to is “a RABID DOG”.

    Only if the dog is blind, deaf, dumb, missing ALL of its teeth, post-ictal and comatose/at the brink of death.

  20. #20 Scott
    April 7, 2010

    It’s interesting that the board’s attorney would make such a mistake as to when the relevant part of the law came into effect. You’d think he’d be very up on those details. Unless he’s being misquoted.

  21. #21 Joe
    April 7, 2010

    Tacroy,

    As a technical matter, no court will look kindly on someone who has people sign an acknowledgement and then immediately violates it. As a practical matter, Buttar would probably say he made no claims, the patient is a greedy son of a gun, and point out that he said he made no claims in writing.

    Jojo,

    When I had hand surgery at a respectable hospital when I was a teen, I had to sign a notice that I understood I might die and all that. I’d imagine most people’s reaction is the same as mine: “well, if the risk outweighed the benefit, the doctor wouldn’t recommend it.” Especially since there’s no discussion of the probability of those risks, so you can’t really independently evaluate much.

  22. #22 Jojo
    April 7, 2010

    @Joe After I typed that I realized I had signed something similar for my OB/GYN before he delivered my son. I know it mentioned possible death, and while I did pause of that, I took the same stance that you did, it was just highlighting the known risk to giving birth.

    Which makes what the NC medical board even worse. By allowing him to keep his license, they are sending the message to all of his patients that he is a legitimate medical practitioner and they will assume the consent for is just the necessary cover your butt form that everyone uses these days.

    It’s sad really.

  23. #23 Doctor I.M. Smart
    April 7, 2010

    If you think just North Carolina is in trouble think again. I am now offering my own cancer therapy and vaccine cures as well as a host of other cures to many people all over. Guess what? I do not line my pockets. I do not charge one single penney for my services. Now, that’s healthcare reform!

    Anyone suffering from cancer? Want my advice? Just ask me. I’ll get you through it without the dangerous poison known as chemo. Big pharma loves your money and your insurance company’s profits. It helps them keep you sick and them rich.

    I offer my services for free becuase I already have a job.

    Go ahead. Anyone on here have cancer? Doctor telling you you need open heart surgery? Don’t buy it. With 16 weeks of my therapy I can have your arteries cleaned and you off youy cholesterol, heart, and blood pressure medications entirely and it will not cost you a dime. By the way, many statin drugs actually cause type II diabetes. Stay away from these dangerous drugs.

  24. #24 Chris
    April 7, 2010

    The delusions are getting grander!

  25. #25 Doctor I.M. Smart
    April 7, 2010

    Well, if it isn’t my secret admirer Chris. He just keeps following me around like a little lost puppy. That’s sad Chris, and a little creepy. But I do have some alternative treatments for people unwilling to undergo painful, expensive, and pointless things lie open heart surgery, chemo, etc. I can’t help it if you don’t like it Chris. Have you had your daily dose of government compliance medication today? (sodium flouride)

  26. #26 nsib
    April 7, 2010

    Dammit dammit dammit! And of course the article’s by Karen Garloch, our wonderfully “fair and balanced” health reporter. She’s also written a favorable article on antibiotic treatment for “chronic lyme.” And yet she’s one of the few health reporters we have…

  27. #27 Harbo
    April 7, 2010

    If I open my mouth once too often in the wrong venue (a failing of mine) and can no longer derive an income from legitimate means; I have some small comfort in the fact that any idiot can make a living from the gullible.
    I have acquired lots of fluffy jargon over the years……
    with pseudoscientific waffle…
    I can even be NICE…… if pushed.
    But I do promise/swear (on a tome by Dawkins)
    to only fleece the “worried well”
    and to send the genuinely ill back
    to the corrupt, evil medical world
    (in the hope for true cure) (run by big Pharma and evil Vax)

    . so help me, orac.(no capitals for you)

    They really are Bastards! I’m not sure if I fear the deluded or the corrupt more.

  28. #28 Chris
    April 7, 2010

    Some delusional guy:

    Well, if it isn’t my secret admirer Chris. He just keeps following me around like a little lost puppy.

    I have never responded to you on any other blog than this one. One blog. A blog I check whenever I switch processes, or just because (I am editing a radio play file right now, so I take breaks). A blog of someone I followed on Usenet long before he got his first blog. I am an admirer of Orac (who I have corresponded with on occasion by email). How in the world is that “following” you around?

    I just noticed you on WhiteCoatUnderground once (where your comment was summarily deleted).

    You are obviously even more delusional than I thought.

  29. #29 Amenhotepstein
    April 8, 2010

    Have you had your daily dose of government compliance medication today? (sodium flouride)

    Thaaaats right, “Doctor”, its all about our impure bodily fluids!

  30. #30 Anthro
    April 8, 2010

    Dr. Buttar is a DO by the way. I have met some DO’s that just practice plain ol’ medicine and you never hear anything about “manipulations”, but I have also seen ads for the more woo-friendly type of DO, which many MD’s also are involved in, so maybe it doesn’t hold any great significance that he’s a DO, but I thought it was interesting. His website is a hoot:

    http://www.drbuttar.com/

    He looks more like a wrestler than a doctor. He is supposedly an emergency doc–that’s scary, indeed–can you imagine arriving in the ER and getting him? . How can NC let this go on?

  31. #31 Jets Rock
    April 8, 2010

    Re: Matt P’s reading of the law as amended by our elected representatives in the state legislature last year: They did add the part about “discipline in ANY manner.” That’s the underlined language in that particular part of the bill. Before that change, the ridiculous extra protection for charlatans related only to the harshest punishment. Now the Board can’t even take lesser measures unless it can prove the unprovable (that snake oil doesn’t work). The pre-existing whole in the law was made that much bigger

  32. #32 Anthro
    April 8, 2010

    And this from QuackWatch. Thank you Dr. Barrett.

    http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/Nonrecorg/abcmt/overview.html

  33. #33 Chris
    April 8, 2010

    The thing is the DO education has changed over the past several years to become more mainstream. For all intents and purposes a DO is equivalent to an MD.

    Unfortunately properly educated MDs (and DOs) succumb to the woo and peddle nonsense. Examples include Andrew Weil, Mehmet Oz, Andrew Wakefield, Bob Sears, Jay Gordon and too many others.

    Rashid Buttar, is just an example of a more egregious quack with a proper education.

    By the way, looks in an ER mean very little, when you are in the ER it is purely transitory and the memory can be fickle. I was admitted to an ER after a car accident when I was 19 years old. The ER doc who I talked to was actually wearing a cowboy hat! I am not joking. He was also a cutie pie, and I was very disappointed that the doctor I got while I was hospitalized for the next three days was an older portly man who was quite concerned for my spleen.

    Of course my memory on the whole episode is fuzzy. I made have imagined the cowboy hat. I still remember the car we crashed into has being red, but the official report described it as blue.

  34. #34 Jud
    April 8, 2010

    These laws are not about to get any better because of the backlash, well-supported by state and national physicians’ organizations, against the malpractice trial bar.

    The trial bar, of course, is out to make money, not make medical care better, and malpractice verdicts help raise the cost of malpractice insurance, so the backlash is in many ways deserved.

    The problem is that while doctors and lawyers fight over money issues, the baby (publicly available information on bad doctors, including both those who practice woo and those who practice non-woo, but badly) is tossed out with the bathwater.

  35. #35 D. C. Sessions
    April 8, 2010

    These laws are not about to get any better because of the backlash, well-supported by state and national physicians’ organizations, against the malpractice trial bar.

    Lax state medical boards are arguably some of the best friends the malpractice bar has. Regular news stories where licensed physicians get away with repeated abuse (sound familiar?) prepare the public to believe that quality control in medicine is nonexistent. Thus, the lawyers have half their work done already when they go before a jury.

  36. #36 Doctor I.M Smart
    April 8, 2010

    Chris,

    Stop following me. It’s creepy. Oh and I fixed your statement:

    “I just noticed you on WhiteCoatUnderground once (where your comment was summarily CENSORED).”

    Stop being creepy.

    Nevermind, I think a little 5-htp will fix it. Want some?

  37. #37 Doctor I.M Smart
    April 8, 2010

    I think Chris had too much sodium flouride. He’s complying with leftism too much. Everyone knows the Nazi socialists gave sodium flouride to their Jewish prisoners to make them more compliant. maybe that’s why liberals exist. The government madates this stuff be in our drinking water and it turns normal people into liberals. That’s the only explanation as to why they keep multiplying. The female ones hate men and family ad children so they have abortions. The male liberals are gay and don’t have any real offspring. So how come there are so many? Maybe the government has a liberal cloning machine? They have to be coming from somewhere.

  38. #38 Poogles
    April 8, 2010

    “I think Chris had too much sodium flouride. He’s complying with leftism too much. Everyone knows the Nazi socialists gave sodium flouride to their Jewish prisoners to make them more compliant. maybe that’s why liberals exist. The government madates this stuff be in our drinking water and it turns normal people into liberals. That’s the only explanation as to why they keep multiplying. The female ones hate men and family ad children so they have abortions. The male liberals are gay and don’t have any real offspring. So how come there are so many? Maybe the government has a liberal cloning machine? They have to be coming from somewhere.”

    You should be happy this is in interent forum and not real life – I had the sudden urge to puke all over you after this comment. And possibly throw something heavy at your head afterwards.

    BTW, I agree with most everything on these forums, yet don’t consider myself a liberal and I don’t drink tap water (with the ebil flouride!!!11!1eleventy!).

  39. #39 Luna_the_cat
    April 8, 2010

    Doctor “Smart” — you’ve GOT to be a Poe, surely, or whatever the alt-med equivalent of a Poe would be, surely. Because I genuinely find it difficult to believe that someone could really be as stupid and obviously delusional as you appear and be able to spell correctly. I mean, if you were actually as much of a fuckwit as you look, I would at least expect the Random Capitalization Fairy to have appeared.

  40. #40 Chris
    April 8, 2010

    He is just delusional, especially if he thinks we actually care what he says. Actually I find him to be a bit amusing, kind of like a little troll pet that says idiotic stuff. Especially the enormous gaff here.

  41. #41 Doctor I.M Smart
    April 8, 2010

    What are going to throw? Eggs?

    If you throw something at my head, it is only polite to pick it up and throw it back at yours. Liberals are so violent when they don’t get their way.

    I’d to leave a fresh turd on your doorsteps – coated in sodium Flouride. Eat up. I farted on your momma’s forehead.

  42. #42 Doctor I.M Smart
    April 8, 2010

    Chris just keeps stalking me. That’s creepy and a little silly on his part. I think he likes me. I think he is secretly taking my medical advice. He’s like having my own personal pet stalker to keep me company wherever I go. Anyone on here wish to conduct a scientific experiment on what colloidal silver does to to turds?

  43. #43 Poogles
    April 8, 2010

    “What are going to throw? Eggs?

    If you throw something at my head, it is only polite to pick it up and throw it back at yours. Liberals are so violent when they don’t get their way.

    I’d to leave a fresh turd on your doorsteps – coated in sodium Flouride. Eat up. I farted on your momma’s forehead.”

    Erm…since when are eggs “heavy”? I’m thinking more along the lines of toasters, blenders, stereos, bricks…that kind of thing. In which case, I’d be rather surprised if you were able to recover quickly enough to pick the object up and lob it at me before I have taken cover, LOL. All completely irrelevant since this is the internet and that makes such acts impossible :-D

    Also, I don’t have a doorstep, I would get my complex to clean up the turd, and I don’t really care what you do to my mom’s forehead – although you should be warned, as a bi-polar alcoholic who grew up on the streets, my mom’s not the most stable person and you may just get knifed for such an action LOL!!

    Also, I already said I’m not a liberal. :-P

  44. #44 Nick
    April 8, 2010

    Doctor I.M. Smart is either one of the better trolls in existence or an escaped schizophrenic patient. The whole paranoid “Chris is stalking thing” and such outlandish conspiracy theories remind me very much of my homeless clients at a public interest position I held as a kid.

    Maybe IM is the medical counterpart of Gene Ray, the very prestigious physicist that made great advances in the area of cubic time (timecube.com).

  45. #45 Doctor I.M Smart
    April 8, 2010

    I’m too hardheaded for toasters, blenders, etc to affect me. Nice try though. Yes lefties like to throw eggs, I like to throw turds. I also like to strategically place them in your desk drawer at work or on your kitchen table at home via slingshot.

    Chris follows me everywhere. I bet he watches me poo so he can tell you guys about it.

    Having a bipolar alcoholic mother explains a lot. I hear it is even hereditary. Ready to be turded yet?

    By the way lefties throwing things at me usually results in me returning the favor by flinging my turds at them with my wrist rocket. I usually aim for their mouth since that is the largest part of them.

  46. #46 Poogles
    April 8, 2010

    “I like to throw turds. I also like to strategically place them in your desk drawer at work or on your kitchen table at home via slingshot […]Having a bipolar alcoholic mother explains a lot. I hear it is even hereditary. Ready to be turded yet?”

    Don’t have a desk drawer or a kitchen table either, lol. Keep tryin.

    And how would it “explain a lot” considering you don’t know me? And yes, both bi-polar disorder and alcoholism can both be hereditary – so far, it appears I have dodged both bullets and for that I am lucky.

    LOL! This is somewhat amusing. Kind of like bantering with a small child – “oh yeah?! well, well…I’ll put a turd in your drawer!!”

  47. #47 M I The One Off Topic?
    April 8, 2010

    ok, so anyway, stalkers and whatnot aside, here’s what I have trouble with:

    If I go to a doctor and say, “I have Condition X” and the doctor says, “Oh, well then, I’ll run Test Q, perform Procedure B, and prescribe Medication T”, by what demented logic could anyone NOT consider that an endorsement of those treatments as suitable for curing or improving Condition X? If my doctor claims any logical connection between my statement and his reply, it automatically means that the doctor must consider those effective treatments, otherwise the doctor-patient relationship is meaningless.

    So the obvious holes in this bucket that I see so far are:
    1 – these patients and families are desperate enough and/or logic-impaired enough that Procedure B could be to fill their bathtub with brightly-colored telephones and they’d try it, so arguing based on logic is futile
    2 – Buttar is clearly happy to prey on people who won’t understand that what he’s doing is a violation of the doctor-patient relationship

    of course there are waivers for risks with any intervention, but weak as this ‘enforcement’ really is, the wording of this waiver seems like it should set off alarm bells for anyone without a full set of tinfoil hats

  48. #48 Doctor I.M Smart
    April 8, 2010

    You don’t have a kitchen table? That is weird. Let me guess. You don’t cook? (tv dinners ans canned food is not cooking) I bet I am 95 % correct on this one.

    Do you have a sofa? Or is that too sexist too?

    Whatever you have, I would like to turd it up on behalf of all normal people everywhere.

    Now back to the topic at hand. North Carolina may have gained a new professional to help cure some of the diseases that others are only treating the symptoms of. I myself, help people who have failed to be cured going to their doctor. My success rate is low becuase I have not many patients, but I will tell you the ones that I have thank me. And I don’t have to rely on Obamacare population control legislation to do it either. Repeal the bill!

  49. #49 Doctor I.M. Smart
    April 8, 2010

    Then again, my sucksses rate maybe low becuase my grammer and spelling is horible. Its hart to right a goud prescripshon that way.

  50. #50 Doctor I.M Smart
    April 8, 2010

    POST # 49 = ANOTHER CREEPY STALKER.

    I don’t write prescriptions. There is no need to include a middle man. Just give your patients the medicine when they come to see you – you know like doctors used to do in the good ole days before pharmacists. In the good old days, the doctor and the pharmacist was the same person. You got your medicine in he doctor’s office. No middle man invloved. Maybe we should have included this procedure in Obama’s “healthcare” plan.

  51. #51 Doctor I.M Smart
    April 8, 2010

    Interesting. So now they just toss out doctor degrees like beads at Mardi Gras, huh? Good luck with that.

  52. #52 Vindaloo
    April 8, 2010

    Ban it.

  53. #53 D. C. Sessions
    April 9, 2010

    Ban it.

    Reluctantly seconded.

  54. #54 ChrisJ
    April 10, 2010

    It’s just performance art. And not very good.

  55. #55 Emerson White
    April 12, 2010

    I was going to leave this post on neurologica, but they require a log in, and I have too many accounts/passwords as it is.

    I think you guys are tackling this wrong, you are selling it as a medical failure, but what you need to do is sell it as a legal protection failure. When people go to these doctors they will be told things like “chelation will cure your cancer” and then they will be executed with chelation and lack of treatment. The problem with that is that they can’t sue if it is protected by law, so really these laws are taking away consumer protection.

    That is what people care about.

  56. #56 depressedbybuttar
    May 2, 2010

    It’s so sickening that people like Dr. Buttar and other “alternative” medical doctors can get away with quackery. I’m so depressed at the direction things are going. Why do conventional doctors have to abide by evidence standards while medical doctors who call themselves “alternative” don’t have to? Desperate patients will only see the “MD” or “OD” in their title and assume that this guy must be legit. – because he’s a “doctor.” Thank goodness for sites like this to expose the fraud. (Okay, feeling a little better now thinking about this site.) Dr. Buttar just released a press release (which doesn’t read like a press release, so that seems deceptive too) condemning the Frontline film “Vaccine Wars.” He’s whining that he didn’t get air time after being interviewed for a long time, and is offering a research challenge to the NIH, CDC, etc. that he will treat a small group of autistic children with his methods, compared to standard care, to show that he methods work. http://www.i-newswire.com/doctor-accuses-pbs-frontline-of/34333
    I thought he wasn’t allowed to work with kids anymore! He must know that no one is going to agree to an experiment using risky, unnecessary, dubious chelation treatments on children; the NIH recently cancelled such a study.

  57. #57 Johnny Gregory
    June 1, 2010

    Friends,
    I see your points but not one of you has suggested anything like Dr. Buttar would as far as the patient needs to clean up his/her DIET and LIFESTYLE. You are all just afraid of the future. There is no reason why established medicine and CAM cannot work hand in hand with respect.
    Anybody knows of iatrogenic (caused by a medical treatment) diseases but that does not stop people from depending on and using medical doctors. http://www.yourmedicaldetective.com/public/335.cfm
    LEARN TO ACCEPT SOME THINGS YOU DON’T KNOW ABOUT AND KEEP AN OPEN MIND.

  58. #58 Luc Chene
    July 9, 2010

    It is quite strange that MDs in North Carolina can provide ‘odd’ treatments whereas Sanoviv, a health institution founded by Myron Wentz of Usana is established in Mexico due to the difficulty of supplying not mean stream therapies, yet the therapies offered at Sanoviv are much closer to medical establishment therapies than what Dr Buttar and other may legally do in North Carolina and perhaps elsewhere in the US.

  59. #59 Del
    July 14, 2010

    The author is clearly an angry fella with some deep issues.

    Ten grand says the author thinks that Dr. Omurs’s B-DORT (bidigital o-ring test) or QRA (Quantum Reflex Analysis) as developed by Doctors Marshall and Forbes are bogus – although they are university-proven AND have been proven to be exquisitely accurate, get this – HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES in clinical practice.

    Many of us think that Dr. Buttar is exceptionally greedy. That’s easy to agree on, based on the incredible fees that he charges.
    THIS DOES NOT INVALIDATE WHAT HE DOES

    Within our industry, the recoveries that he has helped to effect are approaching the legendary.

    When we see how many adjectives are used here, the viewers of this page are urged to take the author’s comments with many grains of salt.

    Most fascinating of all in the way of proof and evidence:
    LOOK AT THE AUTHOR OF THIS ARTICLE. No human on earth can claim that “Orac” is a picture of health. Quite the contrary, in fact, and no words that any of us can utter are stronger, or more influential, than the actions and evidence that we get to witness.

  60. #60 Del
    July 14, 2010

    The author is clearly an angry fella with some deep issues.

    Ten grand says the author thinks that Dr. Omura’s B-DORT (bidigital o-ring test) or QRA (Quantum Reflex Analysis) as developed by Doctors Marshall and Forbes are bogus – although they are university-proven AND have been proven to be exquisitely accurate, get this – HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES in clinical practice.

    Many of us think that Dr. Buttar is exceptionally greedy. That’s easy to agree on, based on the incredible fees that he charges.
    THIS DOES NOT INVALIDATE WHAT HE DOES

    Within our industry, the recoveries that he has helped to effect are approaching the legendary.

    When we see how many adjectives are used here, the viewers of this page are urged to take the author’s comments with many grains of salt.

    Most fascinating of all in the way of proof and evidence:
    LOOK AT THE AUTHOR OF THIS ARTICLE. No human on earth can claim that “Orac” is a picture of health. Quite the contrary, in fact, and no words that any of us can utter are stronger, or more influential, than the actions and evidence that we get to witness.

  61. #61 Badger3k
    July 14, 2010

    “Within our industry, the recoveries that he has helped to effect are approaching the legendary”

    I think the key word is “legendary”. I think we can all agree on that…

  62. #62 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 14, 2010

    Ten grand says the author thinks that Dr. Omura’s B-DORT (bidigital o-ring test) or QRA (Quantum Reflex Analysis) as developed by Doctors Marshall and Forbes are bogus – although they are university-proven AND have been proven to be exquisitely accurate, get this – HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES in clinical practice.

    [Citation needed] on that “university-proven” bit. Regarding the BDORT, I’ll quote Wikipedia:

    In the only known independent evaluation of BDORT or of any other BDORT-related treatment and technique by a mainstream scientific or medical body, the Medical Practitioners Disciplinary Tribunal of New Zealand ruled, in two separate cases brought before it in 2003, that Dr. Richard Warwick Gorringe, MB, ChB of Hamilton, New Zealand, who used BDORT (which he also called ‘PMRT’) to the exclusion of conventional diagnoses on his patients, was guilty of malpractice. In the first case, the Tribunal found it “is not a plausible, reliable, or scientific technique for making medical decisions” and “there is no plausible evidence that PMRT has any scientific validity.”[5][6]

    As for that “have been proven HUNDERDS OF DOUSANDZ OF TIMEZ in clinical practice” bit, it’s basically asserting that you have a lot of anecdotes.

    Many of us think that Dr. Buttar is exceptionally greedy. That’s easy to agree on, based on the incredible fees that he charges.
    THIS DOES NOT INVALIDATE WHAT HE DOES

    No, it does not invalidate what he does. But to say that is to miss the point, because no one needs to invalidate Dr. Buttar’s unproven made-up techniques. As the ones making extraordinary claims, those who believe that his techniques have some level of effectiveness are the ones who bear the burden of proof to show that there is any validity to them.

    Within our industry, the recoveries that he has helped to effect are approaching the legendary.

    Translation: “Some of our anecdotes are really impressive.”

    When we see how many adjectives are used here, the viewers of this page are urged to take the author’s comments with many grains of salt.

    adjectives = not credible, really? That’s pretty desperate on your part. What straw will you grasp at next? “Oh, you can’t possibly believe anything that nasty skeptic says, he’s using too many commas!”? “He used too many words that end in vowels; that clearly impairs his credibility!”?

    Most fascinating of all in the way of proof and evidence:
    LOOK AT THE AUTHOR OF THIS ARTICLE. No human on earth can claim that “Orac” is a picture of health. Quite the contrary, in fact, and no words that any of us can utter are stronger, or more influential, than the actions and evidence that we get to witness.

    Bahahaha! What “evidence” are you looking at?? Do you see rust on his contacts? Cloudy spots on his Lucite box? Oh, please, do go into detail!

  63. #63 sandra Galt
    July 26, 2010

    You people are so brain washed, it’s sad. Heavy metals in the body, especially in our teeth (the metal in amalgam restorations, bridges, crowns, on-lays and root canals are hidden under porcelain to make the tooth look real. A root canal has a metal stud drilled into the toxic material they use to fill the dead tooth, then they cover it with a metal crown with porcelain coating, which is the visual crown. Teeth are porous. Any amount of metal or mercury in or on them slowly seeps into the body and causes all kinds illnesses. Some people are more sensitive than others. Their reactions to the slow seepage into the body of these toxins vary dramatically. Thank God (higher power) these Doctors are brave enough to do something about it.

  64. #64 Chris
    July 26, 2010

    Like remove all your teeth.

  65. #65 sandra Galt
    July 27, 2010

    The reason I had to have all my teeth out was because I had huge amalgam fillings and when they got hot (from drinking hot coffee or tea) they expanded and when they got cold (from drinking ice water, etc.) they retracted. During those processes the amalgam cracked my teeth all the way down to the root, which let the bacteria from my mouth get into my bone marrow. This infected my jawbone and it gave me gangrene of the jawbone. The process of heating the amalgams produces an off-gas of mercury fumes. Talk about debilitating headaches … when I saw a doctor about the headaches I was told it was all in my head (yeah, literally!). My mom is healthy and she went to Dr. Youngman in Danville, CA, New Era Dentistry, and had her teeth fixed, but fillings don’t last forever, so she had on-lays that were made out of Targis and not metal. There are alternatives to not having your teeth pulled and not being poisoned by the heavy metals, although it’s very expensive. I went to see Dr. Lee in South San Francisco and he told me if every one over the age of 50 should have all their teeth out, and the ligament holding the tooth in the socket cleaned out there would be nowhere near as many medical crises or cancer patients. Oral health, meaning the health of your gums, teeth and what’s in or on your teeth is the basis of your full-body health and quality of life.

  66. #66 Chris
    July 27, 2010

    I’ll keep my teeth, thank you very much! I only ever had four fillings, and was fitted for a second crown. Otherwise, my gums and teeth are okay.

    I am over fifty, and I am pretty sure I am much healthier than you!

  67. #67 a-non
    July 27, 2010

    I don’t know if it was a repeat or not, but I caught some of Dr. Buttar’s act on 20/20 (I think) over the weekend, as they were doing a story on alleged flu-shot victim Desiree Jennings. To suggest he came off like a complete tool would be an understatement.

  68. #68 sandra Galt
    July 27, 2010

    Thank goodness that you’re healthy. I’ve been sick all my life. I went to thousands of traditional doctors and they sent me home with super potent pain medicine and told me it’s all in my head. So I had to find someone who could help me. And it was a doctor just like Dr. Buttar. I don’t understand why you are criticizing Dr. Buttar when you don’t even know what it’s like when you don’t even have an illness yourself. People who are sick, suffering and dying deserve to be able to try any treatment available that might be able to relieve their pain or heal them. It gives them hope and something to look forward to instead of just suffering. And sometimes it works like it did for me and I’m sure that I am now as healthy as you are.

  69. #69 Todd W.
    July 27, 2010

    @Sandra Galt

    Yes, people have a right to try out whatever they wish to. However, quacks should not be able to foist fraudulent, rank quackery on the unsuspecting who are desperate for help.

    The problem is that folks like Dr. Buttar use practices that are not supported by anything remotely like science. Chelation for anything? Uh, no. Chelation is only for actual heavy metal poisoning, not someone’s unsupported guess that an illness is caused by heavy metal poisoning. Injecting urine? How is that supposed to help anything?

    I am more than willing to be shown that I am wrong. If you have links to actual science showing not only the safety, but also the effectiveness of any of the supposed treatments used by Dr. Buttar or his like, by all means, please present it.

    If someone wants to throw money at figments, that’s their concern. If someone wants to sell nonsense as real medicine, then they need to put up.

  70. #70 Scientizzle
    July 27, 2010

    People who are sick, suffering and dying deserve to be able to try any treatment available that might be able to relieve their pain or heal them.

    People who are sick, suffering and dying, and people who are perfectly healthy, deserve to be given truthful, accurate evaluations of medical treatment options and prognoses. What you’re essentially saying, sandra Galt, is that you think it’s okay for a person to be charged substantial sums to be given unproven treatments and fed platitudes that misrepresent a patient’s medical condition. Fleeced and lied to.

    Me, I think it’s fraudulent to claim that Treatment X cures or treats Condition Y when such claims cannot meet a basic standard of scientific evidence. Don’t you think it’s fraudulent to deliberately misrepresent such medical claims?

    My libertarian bent is more-or-less okay with an informed adult making stupid health decisions; however, informed consent does come from medical professionals that mislead patients. My contempt is reserved largely for the frauds that knowingly peddle modern patent medicine.

  71. #71 Scientizzle
    July 27, 2010

    People who are sick, suffering and dying deserve to be able to try any treatment available that might be able to relieve their pain or heal them.

    People who are sick, suffering and dying, and people who are perfectly healthy, deserve to be given truthful, accurate evaluations of medical treatment options and prognoses. What you’re essentially saying, sandra Galt, is that you think it’s okay for a person to be charged substantial sums to be given unproven treatments and fed platitudes that misrepresent a patient’s medical condition. Fleeced and lied to.

    Me, I think it’s fraudulent to claim that Treatment X cures or treats Condition Y when such claims cannot meet a basic standard of scientific evidence. Don’t you think it’s fraudulent to deliberately misrepresent such medical claims?

    My libertarian bent is more-or-less okay with an informed adult making stupid health decisions; however, informed consent does come from medical professionals that mislead patients. My contempt is reserved largely for the frauds that knowingly peddle modern patent medicine.

  72. #72 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 27, 2010

    I don’t understand why you are criticizing Dr. Buttar when you don’t even know what it’s like when you don’t even have an illness yourself.

    How about the fact that he’s practiced his utterly unproven techniques for removing supposed mercury toxicity on patients who even by his own tests had normal mercury levels?

  73. #73 Chris
    July 27, 2010

    Sandra, tomorrow we are burying a family member who sounds just like you. While going through her things we found bottles upon bottles of various supplements and “cures.” We found records (and there were lots of them, since she kept everything) of many visits and payments to various doctors, along with details of what supplement she was taking.

    There was one time in the last thirty years she was happy and close to pain free: it was when she was discharged from the county psyche ward after spending six weeks there. She ended up there by having a psychotic breakdown (the emergency services personnel had to navigate the paths in her house). So after treatment by real psychiatrists, real medication and actually having to get real exercise, she was almost normal.

    Then she decided the psychiatrist did not know anything and went back to the naturopath, who sold expensive homeopathic drugs. It turned out, that they didn’t work. The only treatment she complained about was the homeopathy.

    Oh, and the migraines came back. And she had another psychotic episode, but did not go to the out patient clinic. She could not be forced to go to a mental health clinic. So she got worse, and finally took her own life.

    Sandra, this is one way to tell you that alt-med (especially from a con-artist like Buttar) is not as good as a good psychiatrist. You may go ballistic if you want, but I will be thinking of you while we are at the cemetery.

  74. #74 Calli Arcale
    July 27, 2010

    Sandra Galt:

    I went to see Dr. Lee in South San Francisco and he told me if every one over the age of 50 should have all their teeth out, and the ligament holding the tooth in the socket cleaned out there would be nowhere near as many medical crises or cancer patients.

    You’ve seriously had ALL of your teeth extracted? So you are either on a liquid diet or you wear dentures. Wow. Did you actually seriously have fillings in ALL of your teeth? Goodness. I’m prone to dental caries despite brushing and flossing regularly, and even I don’t have cavities in ALL of my teeth.

    Having all your teeth extracted is very extreme. It should not be done on a speculative basis, because once your teeth are gone, they are GONE, and even the best dentures or implants will never be as good. Anyone who recommends extracting the teeth of all people over the age of 50 is someone who seriously should have his dental license revoked. That’s horrendous.

    (Also profitable, though. Tooth extractions are pure gravy for dentists, which is why the unethical find ways to recommend them for people who don’t need them.)

    Now, you talk of teeth cracking all the way down; sounds like the dentist who did the original restorations was incompetent, or something else was going on, but in any case, fractured teeth probably would have to go. But a dentist who recommends extraction of *healthy* teeth, with or without amalgam restorations, is not one with his patients’ best interests at heart. He’s thinking of his pocketbook.

    BTW, I have one very huge amalgam filling. If it gets loose again, I’m looking at a crown. Yay. (Its presence is due to an incompetent pediatric dentist who let it grow through multiple regular checkups.) It used to really hurt when drinking hot or cold liquids, so I know what you mean there. But the sensitivity faded with time; it is important to give your body time to adjust (and unfortunately nerves are not quick to adjust; they can take years).

  75. #75 Sandra Galt
    July 28, 2010

    If you want to read my story here is the wed site “sandrastory.com” I think of killing myself all the time. I really want tonight

  76. #76 Kristen
    July 28, 2010

    Sandra,

    If you truly feel that way please talk to your family about getting psychiatric help. There is absolutely no reason to feel so hopeless, there are people who can help you. An internet blog is not the right place for you to be focusing your energy right now.

  77. #77 sandra
    July 28, 2010

    I agree, people can be so curl. Im realy ok, I’v been through alot,and I am seeking help.Thank you for your concern! traditional and holistic Dr.s have both harmed and helped me.It all depends on the person.I’m just open to trying anything that might help. Money comes and goes.If I dont have my health I have nothing.

  78. #78 sandra
    July 28, 2010

    any amount of mercury is toxic to the body.If you truly belive its ok to have a certin level of a highly toxic substance in your body then you don’t know anything about the amazing human body!

  79. #79 Todd W.
    July 28, 2010

    @sandra

    any amount of mercury is toxic to the body.If you truly belive its ok to have a certin level of a highly toxic substance in your body then you don’t know anything about the amazing human body!

    It all depends on the form of the mercury, the amount and the method of administration. For example, the form found in some flu vaccines (thimerosal) in the amounts and route of administration found in the vaccines are not toxic to the human body. The body can eliminate it without ill effects or damage. You grossly underestimate the amazing awesomeness that is the human body!

    (As always, though, I’m willing to be shown that I am wrong. All it takes is some well-designed, properly conducted scientific studies.)

  80. #80 Scientizzle
    July 28, 2010

    any amount of mercury is toxic to the body

    This is simply not true. If you’ve been told this by a medical professional, that person is lying to you.

    I’m not arguing that mercury is “safe”, I’m stating that the idea that only zero mercury can be considered safe. Please look up the Wikipedia article on the dose-response relationship, linked here. This is a fundamental component of how biological systems act.

    For every specific type of mercury compound–and there are a broad range of possible things to be exposed to containing mercury, from elemental to organomercury, each with their own distinct properties and varying toxicities–there will be a relationship between the exposure level and its effects. It’s the same idea as the difference of effect between a sip of wine versus a glass of wine versus a bottle of wine: the dose changes the effect.

    It is quite impossible to acheive a blood level of zero mercury-containing compounds. Mercury is a naturally-occuring element and we would be exposed to it even if the environment was pristine and lacked industrial byproducts. Beyond that, there is even some evidence of mercury hormesis (though it’s not particularly strong) which would completely contradict the claim of ‘no safe amount of mercury’.

    If you truly belive its ok to have a certin level of a highly toxic substance in your body then you don’t know anything about the amazing human body!

    I’m very certain you have this backwards. The body has mechanisms to remove mercury–an amazing product of evolution. Thus it can handle some mercury, can it not? Clearly large exposures that overwhelm these systems are bad news, but very small one are a different story.

    Sandra, you have been very much mislead. You are in a forum now in which you can ask educated epople about these scientific questions and not get a load of BS. Many of us are scientists in relevant fields–my PhD is in pharmacology, so I know a lot about dose-responses. Don’t be afraid to ask questions; don’t hold too tightly to what you’ve been told, because it is clear you’ve been misinformed.

  81. #81 sandra
    July 28, 2010

    If you check every diseased persons oral health you will find the main reason. The crowns,bridges,fillings,onlays,rct,ect…gum disease all leak toxins and waste slowly into the body.The ammune system can fight these foren bodies only so long.eventually the body forms tumors holding the toxins, or it goes into the lymph glands,or bone ect… where does cancer come from??? the food we eat feed the low grade infection covered by dental procedures.no amount of drilling or scrapping or rincing with chemicals can reach and kill all the tiny tiny pourus areas in one small tooth.way back in the old days people were lucky to live to 35 why becouse of their teeth!!!!!!! its a fact!

    .

  82. #82 pablo
    July 28, 2010

    If you’ve been told this by a medical professional, that person is lying to you.

    I’m guessing it was the same moron who told her he had to pull all her teeth.

  83. #83 Scientizzle
    July 28, 2010

    Sandra, I’ll say it one more time: you’ve been lied to. What you’ve posted above is gibberish that has little relation to actual medicine.

    You have been duped. And you’ve paid the price for that. I am sorry.

  84. #84 Scott
    July 28, 2010

    any amount of mercury is toxic to the body.If you truly belive its ok to have a certin level of a highly toxic substance in your body then you don’t know anything about the amazing human body!

    You mean like the amounts of mercury that ever human, and every other organism on the planet, have always had in their bodies?

  85. #85 Travis
    July 28, 2010

    When I first saw the comment about Sandra removing all her teeth I thought that this must be a troll or a poe type person yanking out chains. It just seemed too crazy. I really hope that is the case because if real it would be far too sad and troubling.

    We often hear of the deaths and illnesses caused by this type of thinking and alt-med quacks but I find it is fairly rare to bump into people who have actually been harmed by it.

  86. #86 Calli Arcale
    July 28, 2010

    Sadly, Travis, I have heard of people actually having all teeth with fillings removed in order to eliminate mercury. Sometimes you hear about them in lawsuits filed after they discover that the “treatment” was unnecessary and has significantly reduced their quality of life, permanently.

    sandra @ 78:

    any amount of mercury is toxic to the body.If you truly belive its ok to have a certin level of a highly toxic substance in your body then you don’t know anything about the amazing human body!

    If you believe any amount of mercury is toxic, then you have a depressingly low opinion of the amazing human body.

  87. #87 Bronze Dog
    July 28, 2010

    If you believe any amount of mercury is toxic, then you have a depressingly low opinion of the amazing human body.

    I’ve had a blog series in mind that deals with this sort of double-think, and the first entry was going to be about the two incompatible ideas that the human body is capable of amazing self-healing and yet it is somehow incapable of dealing with toxins.

    Just what do you think your liver and kidneys are for, Sandra?

  88. #88 Travis
    July 28, 2010

    Calli, sadly I am not all that surprised. I am glad some people wake up and sure but it must be a tough thing to do. Believing the lie means you never have to deal with the fact you did something terrible to yourself, something that has hurt you so much. Makes me think many people must be in denial like Christine Maggiore was about HIV and they just dig deeper.

  89. #89 Calli Arcale
    July 28, 2010

    If you do run that blog series, I’d love to read it, Bronze Dog! It’s definitely a good topic.

    Travis — you’ve hit the nail on the head. It’s hard to admit you’ve been suckered. Harder still to accept it when it means accepting that you endured a great deal for nothing. Most people find it easier to accept pain if some good came of it; if they find out it was just a fraud, it can be devastating. So of course the mind resists it. We all do it, to some degree.

  90. #90 Chris
    July 28, 2010

    Sandra, I thought of you at the grave site ceremony today. I also thought about the issues of getting good mental health services. You must have family who love you.

    Do please find a good mental health facility, probably through the county you live in.

    Just stay away from those who claim to offer you cures or claim that real medicine is trying to kill you. Also, stay away from sites that keep telling you we are evil, and that reinforce your pain. We found records where she had to record each and every pain, temperature to micro-management detail. That has to make it worse. Find a way to live without focusing on your pain and health.

  91. #91 sandra
    July 28, 2010

    when the body has toxic overload thats when disease accurs.I know what has happened to me and no one has all the answers no matter how much you think you know.Im out of this joke of a blog.

  92. #92 Chris
    July 28, 2010

    No, dear lady. What has happened is that your mind has some issues, and you have been in an infinite feedback loop of bad advice. You need to take control, stay away from the sites that scream “toxin!” and get real help. Find a help through your county mental health services.

  93. #93 pablo
    July 28, 2010

    The challenge with the mentally ill is that they are, pretty much by definition, unable to assess their own status. It’s vvery clear that Sandra is suffering from a serious mental illness that is affecting her perception of reality. What is sad is how quacks like Dr Lee have taken advantage of her conditions. She needs someone to help her, not doink her.

  94. #94 Chuck Mertz
    August 7, 2010

    Wow! I am so impressed by the brilliance of some of the posters here. The seem to know everything. Well, I am sure that they have seen the following video from the University of Calgary about mercury toxicity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtFsy0rQsak – Similar

  95. #95 Chuck Mertz
    August 7, 2010

    Wow! I am so impressed by the brilliance of some of the posters here. They seem to know everything. Well, I am sure that they have seen the following video from the University of Calgary about mercury toxicity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtFsy0rQsak – Similar

  96. #96 Chuck Mertz
    August 7, 2010

    Now I know all you people are open-minded to why not take a look at the following: http://www.drbuttar.com/pressrelease.php

  97. #97 Chuck Mertz
    August 7, 2010
  98. #98 Chuck Mertz
    August 7, 2010

    Or how about this one showing mercury coming out of a 25year-old tooth. http://iaomt.org/videos/

  99. #99 Chris
    August 7, 2010

    Oooh…. the evidence is a video! Not.

    And the University of Calgary is not what you think it is, along with the old debunked “mercury coming out of a tooth.”

  100. #100 Travis
    August 7, 2010

    Evidence by video, nice. Especially when the video is not about vaccines. If someone was going to put my nerves in mercury I guess I would start to worry.

    And a link to Buttar’s press releases. Well, I am convinced by that.

  101. #101 Travis
    August 7, 2010

    Chuck, this simple blog posts shows how silly that video is.
    http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/04/smoking-teeth-truth-gets-smoked-out.html
    and a lot is written here about it.
    http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4036

    complete with stupid quote from an IAOMT rep.

  102. #102 Chuck Mertz
    August 7, 2010

    Thanks Travis for the interesting links.

  103. #103 ChuckMertz
    August 7, 2010
  104. #104 Chris
    August 7, 2010

    Thank you, Travis, for doing the leg work on the links that I was too lazy to do!

  105. #105 Chuck Mertz
    August 8, 2010

    Travis,
    Please help me to understand this video. http://www.michigan.gov/mdch/0,1607,7-132-2945_5105_47868-181553–,00.html

  106. #106 Chuck Mertz
    August 8, 2010

    Ah ha! Now I think I understand how this site works.

  107. #107 Michelle
    November 30, 2010

    I hate to spoil anyone’s “Gotcha! moment” and burst your ‘i love mercury’ bubble. Have any of you faux expert chemists and scientists watched the 60 minutes epidose “Is There Poison in Your Mouth?” What about the BBC Panorama version with a similar name? All of these can be found on google videos. They ALL show live participation of mercury being measured from the teeth of both children and adults. Then, in the same episodes, it shows the ADA and BDA denying it. And they are still denying it – and you eat it up. So I purchased a military issue mercury sniffer off of eBay, and guess what people, you are all very wrong. Look into who funds and writes for sites like quachwatch. You think you have the answers but you don’t have a clue. You make up your mind without doing any real research. This is all so sad. If you are a bunch of dentists saying this is safe and keep using it, you belong in jail. And just think, mercury dentists will go so far down in history as…well…use your imagination.

  108. #108 Scottynuke
    November 30, 2010

    Not only is Michelle a Necromancer, but she’s a mercury-sniffing one, apparently.

  109. #109 novalox
    November 30, 2010

    @107

    That had to be one of the stupider necromancer responses I have seen in a while. Not as stupid as Chuck Mertz’s but close to it.

  110. #110 Joseph
    November 30, 2010

    Look into who funds and writes for sites like quachwatch.

    (This ought to be good.) OK, Michelle, tell us. But try not to waste our time with innuendo.

  111. #111 novalox
    November 30, 2010

    @110

    I’ll try not to laugh too hard at her “explanation”.

  112. #112 Composer99
    November 30, 2010

    Not only is she a Necromancer, sending this thread lurching on its way in search of brains, but she is also one short step away from a Godwin.

    Although 111 comments in the thread may have already been Godwinned, now I come to think of it.

  113. #113 henry barigian
    December 7, 2010

    Orac, You are not fit to shine Dr.Buttar’s shoes. If ignorance were money you would be one of the wealthest quacks around.

  114. #114 henry barigian
    December 7, 2010

    Orac, You are not fit to shine Dr.Buttar’s shoes. If ignorance were money you would be one of the wealthest quacks around.

  115. #115 Chris
    December 7, 2010

    Ah, it seems that Mr. Barigian is a necromancer. Perhaps you could do something more interesting than silly insults, and post actual evidence. Since you seem to be new here, I offer up
    some basic rules before commenting on a blog or forum:

    1) If you find an article through Google, before commenting go to the first page and see what is under discussion.

    2) Get to know the place, lurk for a while.

    3) Become familiar with the writing style, especially in how issues are discussed. Anecdotes are not considered data.

    4) Actually read the article and comments before commenting.

    5) Try to proof read your comments (okay, we don’t all do that).

    6) If you think you want to bring a subject up to the participants’ attention, please use the search box on the upper left side of this page to see if it has been discussed before.

    7) If you get an error when posting a comment, before posting again… open another window to see if it was actually posted.

  116. #116 Amy
    December 15, 2010

    It is so sick to see the pharmaceutical industry pedal their quack and poisonous cures and use the government as thugs. 50% of all oncologist will not do chemo or radiation on themselves or their families but they recommend it to others.

    This is sickening, I hate to say it but if you get poisoned by the medical industry, it is because you did not research the scientific studies of the drugs you chose to take. This is not totally tour fault because of articles such as this appear to be accurate but are total works of science fiction. It is a shame but you need to open your mind and become educated with the results and you would rarely use western drug doctors ever again except in the case of body trauma (not emotional trauma) or heart attack. The evidence is in the scientific studies.

  117. #117 Scott
    December 15, 2010

    50% of all oncologist will not do chemo or radiation on themselves or their families but they recommend it to others.

    Citation needed.

    For the rest of your rantings, too, but this is the one concrete statement you made. The rest is just wild-eyed blabbering without any foundation whatsoever.

  118. #118 Chris
    December 15, 2010

    It is another necromancer that is using the thoroughly unimaginative and boring Pharma Shill Gambit.

    Sigh. It would be nice that after finding this through google they would actually learn that Orac is a surgeon, and that there are more creative ways to discuss the issues. Though it seems that thinking for themselves and using actual evidence is much too taxing for their closed minds.

    So, Amy, what evidence do you have for saying “50% of all oncologist will not do chemo or radiation on themselves or their families”? It must have come from some where.

  119. #119 T. Bruce McNeely
    December 15, 2010

    50% of all oncologist will not do chemo or radiation on themselves or their families but they recommend it to others.

    It’s not nice to lie. After all, Santa Claus is watching.

  120. #120 MI Dawn
    December 15, 2010

    Even funnier is the necromancer doesn’t bother to read any of Orac’s blog other than to comment or she would know that Orac has had family members with cancer who DID undergo chemo and IIRC radiation. Guess he’s not one of the 50% who won’t avoid it.

  121. #121 David Williamson
    April 16, 2011

    This quack is paid off by Energy Armor, the placebo jewelry distributor, now.

  122. #122 mahamoud
    April 17, 2011

    i need helpe my dauther she has cancer brokin leg

  123. #123 doc h
    April 30, 2011

    your are full of rage and envy. if i were a cancer patient ,i would use anything that sounded even half promising , especially after chemo failure or injury. i would rather take a chance on an “unproven” treatment than give up or die taking chemo or some other crap that will extend your life only a couple of weeks in some cases. -sure it may cure in some cases too- , but if someones case were truly incurable by conventional standards then any treatment is fair game even if anecdotal.. anecdotal is not a four letter word. many “proven” treatments began as anecdotes and were lucky someone poured some money in to go through the double blind placebo controlled drill.
    as for safety, alternative medicine has an almost squeky white record in comparison or relative to the dirt sludge of conventional medicine. you go check the stats on this!

  124. #124 Narad
    April 30, 2011

    your are full of rage and envy.

    The “envy” bit is always a winner. Or something.

  125. #125 Antaeus Feldspar
    May 1, 2011

    many “proven” treatments began as anecdotes and were lucky someone poured some money in to go through the double blind placebo controlled drill.

    Although Goofus’ capital-free rant is what they call a “target-rich environment” I’ll restrict myself to addressing this one argument of theirs. Though there may be exceptions, it generally isn’t being “lucky” or not that determines whether a treatment moves from “anecdotal” status to the status of a treatment supported by double-blinded RCTs. That may be how Goofus perceives the process, but I’m afraid that’s the nature of the Dunning-Kruger effect: to someone who does not understand what it actually takes to achieve results in a given domain, it appears as if results come from luck. The unfunny, unsuccessful comedian doesn’t realize that his timing is bad, his delivery is flat, his observations are stale, his demeanor is grating; to his perceptions, the only difference between him and Jerry Seinfeld is that – you guessed it! – Seinfeld was “lucky.”

    In the real world, prior plausibility is a major factor. We don’t simply say “Oh, hmm, we have a few anecdotes that make it look like treatment X might work; let’s launch right into a full-scale double-blinded RCT!” We look at whether the treatment modality in question is plausible given all we know about the condition to be treated and all we know about science. For an example, all homeopathic “treatments” are based upon the premise that a biological substance will have a greater effect when the amount of the substance is reduced through succussion, even to the degree that the chance of even one molecule of the original substance remaining is less than one in ten thousand. This is a phenomenon that has never once been observed to happen. It contradicts so much of known physics that homeopathy essentially has no prior plausibility.

    Believe it or not, Rashid Buttar practices and supports treatments which have even less prior plausibility than homeopathy. It’s hard to believe that’s possible, but since Buttar supports “gemstone energy medicine”, where one supposedly reaps medical benefits simply by wearing the right jewelry, it’s true. While the notion of treating cancer by trying to treat the underlying “heavy metal toxicity,” which is not determined to actually underlie cancer, through methods that are not determined to actually treat heavy metal toxicity, is not quite as absurd as these other two, it’s damning with faint praise to say so. The prior plausibility is still missing.

  126. #126 Mark
    July 19, 2011

    They use horse urine to treat hormone embalance instead of trying to detox the liver of a person with these types of embalances. The difference is that the FDA is behind the druf companies who synthetically alter horse urine and make massive amounts of money from that treatment with urine. Anyone who stands against the mainstream treatments like chemo and radiation (that have very poor cure rates and high prices to adminster the treatment), wiil be attacked. Drug pushers/Drug Companies have a lot of power in this country.

  127. #127 Psorta Psychic
    July 19, 2011

    Using my kinda psorta psychic powers empowered from the authority of our Lord Draconis Zeneca of PharmaCOM Orbital HQ I predict that Mark has never figured out what the liver does. He skipped biology to take the anti-spelling class.

  128. #128 smartie
    November 1, 2011

    i tried a new dentist who was against amalgam fillings and he also said i had tons of cavities. i went back to my old dentist for a second opinion and he said i did not have any cavities. i’ll stick with my old dentist thank you

  129. #129 Walter
    December 6, 2011

    It is time that people started to look at the History of Allopathic Medicine and who is behind this organisation and what they are actually doing and why. You need to go back right into the 1920s at least. You need to listen to the patients that have been cured of their Cancer like President Ronald Regan while still in office for instance using Alternative Therapies. My Grandmother was cured of a growth the size of a football in her womb. Passed it like having a baby and the Doctors couldn’t believe that this growth was dead. If you can get hold of a copy of a book “You Don’t Have To Die by Hoxsey”. His treatment didn’t close him down in Dallas, Texas just stupid persistent Local Body Laws finally did. Do as I say and you will never look at Allopathic Medicine again. If you are missing something it is no use giving a debatable drug to relieve yourself when a simple Vitamin, mineral, herb even just sunshine will do the job ten times better. Remember Prevention is ten times better than a cure.

  130. #130 John
    February 13, 2012

    Don’t know the doctor in question. My comment is to the overall state of medicine. Having lost a sister, father in law and mother in law and 5 year old niece to cancer recently I have spent my share of time studying treatment options. When the word cancer is mentioned the first placed you end up is in the oncologist’s office. What you will not hear is that chemotherapy only contributes just over 2 percent to improved survival in cancer patients. Yet despite the mounting evidence of chemotherapy’s lack of effectiveness in prolonging survival, oncologists continue to present chemotherapy as a rational and promising approach to cancer treatment.

    So which doctor is the monster?

    Just down the road at Duke there was a sensation and they published the fact they had found the Holy Grail of cancer cures and individual cures were possible. It turned out to be false. As much as we alike we are also different. The reason you see so many side effects to medication is it is created as a one size fits all approach. 87% to 92% of the population will not see any side effects. The others will see everything from minor side effects to even death.

    Until we can deliver healthcare as individual treatment then there is little difference from the snake oil salesmen you complain about and the person you visit with the white robe and call Doctor.

    The one thing for sure none of us are getting out of here alive.

  131. #131 Bob Klosak
    March 17, 2012

    This Dr. is a HERO of Medicine!

  132. #132 Radu
    March 17, 2012

    ok I see a lot of hate towards Dr Buttar (and I will implicitly assume towards all of alternate medicine, particularly related to anything). I will try to make this (somewhat) short.

    ARE YOU ONE OF HIS PATIENTS? NO? DID YOU TALK TO ONE OF HIS PATIENTS? NO? THAN SHUT THE **** UP! :) Do that and we’ll talk.

    The people who come to him are people who are desperate and tried dozens of your certified doctors, spending dozens of thousands of dollars in the process. I went to regular doctors and they say “I’m fine” and “there’s nothing wrong with me”‘ only after doing alternate medicine did my problems go away. I have much more energy, my pimples are gone, my glucose is stable and I got rid of all my food allergies/intolerances (things that regular medicine cannot cure).

    of course I had to spend fair amounts of money on these things, because the “great health care” here in Canada only subsideses what they want to subsidise, lthings like breat implants and medicine that makes lots of money for drug companies, but never something that actually helps people.

    Not to mention that I was dying when I was really young and only alternate medicine could of saved me, traditional doctors couln’t do squat!!!

    Yes, there are charlatans. But there are a lot of doctors that aren’t charlatans! I hate to break it to you but in real life things are very rarely 0% or 100% !!!

  133. #133 Chris
    March 17, 2012

    So is Buttar trying to drum up business by having folks post semi-literate comments on a two year old blog article?

  134. #134 lilady
    March 17, 2012

    Radu got rid of his pimples and the Canadian Government wouldn’t pay for his “treatment”.

    Meanwhile the Government pays for breast implants…somehow I think Radu is full of it.

  135. #135 Beverly
    March 19, 2012

    i’m very tired of the traditional medicine bull. just go to the grocery tore and look up the ingredients on coffee mate 1 causes kidney failure. then look at the water in plastic bottle and see that it causes ur arteries to build up plaque and harden. artificial sweetens kill u so whos the good guys who tells u the truth. its not the fda or the medical ass uve got to do your own thinking. traditional med uses drugs that hurt your major organs, chemo causes secondary cancer. immunizations kill babies but ok its a few we loose u have a paper to release the doctor from that responsibility. they dont when we start thinking for ourselves. i did the breast implant deal and they nearly killed me and the traditional doctors say its all in ur head. that was a lie. they make lots of money because people dont think and read and do their own research. i hope people will start to think open up your eyes on whose doing what, and teach ur children to eat and drink good food and water and its not in a plastic bottle or out of a tap, chlorine and fluoride are not good for you. plus now you have the genetically altered grain bad. u just remember you cant out do God!

  136. #136 Chris
    March 19, 2012

    Beverly:

    immunizations kill babies

    Citation needed.

    u just remember you cant out do God!

    Which god? The one that lets children die from measles and pertussis, or the one that permits people to become educated and think freely enough to prevent those tragedies?

  137. #137 lilady
    March 19, 2012

    @ Beverly: Could “u” possibly post without using your teen messaging lingo?

    Hilarious that you compare your breast enhancement surgery with childhood immunizations…do “u” really think that anyone would think that you have any education…beyond your adolescence?

    Beverly, my “god” informs me that I should use my higher education to plan healthy meals, to drink water from the tap…and to be fully immunized.

  138. #138 Marc Stephens Is Insane
    March 19, 2012

    “…then look at the water in plastic bottle and see that it causes ur arteries to build up plaque and harden…”

    Beverly: please explain how in the world it’s possible that bottled water causes arterial plaque.

    And if you drink neither bottled water NOR tap water, what DO you drink? You must be getting pretty thirsty…?

  139. #139 Peter bragger
    May 19, 2012

    I am. Cancer patient and he took my last pent away and his treatment did nothing for me. He charged 8000$ for each treatment.

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