Respectful Insolence

The Vaccine War?

I haven’t mentioned this before. The reason is not because I don’t find it interesting or potentially blog-worthy, but rather because it slipped my mind and other things caught my interest last week. Given that the show is going to air beginning tomorrow, I thought that a few thoughts were in order. PBS’s Frontline is going to air a show entitled The Vaccine War, and here’s a preview:

The press release describing the episode gives me reason for concern:

Vaccines have changed the world, largely eradicating a series of terrible diseases, from smallpox to polio to diphtheria, and likely adding decades to most of our life spans. But despite the gains–and numerous scientific studies indicating vaccine safety–a growing movement of parents remains fearful of vaccines. And in some American communities, significant numbers of parents have been rejecting vaccines altogether, raising new concerns about the return of vaccine-preventable diseases like measles and whooping cough.

In The Vaccine War, airing Tuesday, April 27, 2010, at 9 P.M. ET on PBS (check local listings), FRONTLINE lays bare the science of vaccine safety and examines the increasingly bitter debate between the public health establishment and a formidable populist coalition of parents, celebrities, politicians and activists who are armed with the latest social media tools, including Facebook, YouTube and Twitter, and are determined to resist pressure from the medical and public health establishments to vaccinate, despite established scientific consensus about vaccine safety.


So far, so good. It is true that there is a war going on, and it is a war between the forces of pseudoscience and autism quackery versus science-based medicine. Caught in the middle are parents who don’t know whom to believe, but, more importantly, the war puts children at risk for vaccine-preventable diseases. It is a war that until recently the anti-vaccine movement was clearly winning. Having followed the issue since the early 2000s and having become involved as a blogger in a big way in 2005, I had the impression that the CDC, AAP, and various public health authorities didn’t really take anti-vaccine crank groups like Generation Rescue seriously until around 2008, which is when they finally began pushing back. Add to that the very public fall of Andrew Wakefield, patron saint of the anti-vaccine movement, beginning with evidence showing that he had probably committed scientific fraud coming to light in February 2009 and continuing with his being found to have committed research misconduct by the British General Medical Council this year, which led in rapid succession to his infamous 1998 Lancet paper and 2009 NeuroToxicology “monkey study” paper being withdrawn, which later led to his being pushed out of his position at Thoughtful House, and 2010 has been an even rougher year for the anti-vaccine movement than 2009.

As much as I’d like the issue to be the science, which has thus far given no support to the contention that vaccines cause autism or any of the other diseases and conditions attributed to them by the anti-vaccine movement, rather than personality the fact is that most people don’t think that way. At least, they generally don’t base their decisions on science. Authority matters, and people tend to base their decisions on the opinions of people they trust. Destroy trust in Andrew Wakefield, which is what has happened to the point that even his staunchest supporters at Thoughtful House decided that he had become a liability and gave him the boot. As much as I wish that it weren’t about personalities and authority, I can’t help but appreciate that Andrew Wakefield’s downfall is something that can be pointed to when discussing vaccines with undecided parents leaning towards not vaccinating as a way of telling them in a way that they can understand that the claims about the MMR vaccine causing autism have been discredited. True, whether or not Wakefield is struck off the list of licensed physicians in the U.K. is irrelevant to the scientific question of whether the MMR vaccine causes autism, it is someting that people without a medical background understand.

Unfortunately, that’s one reason why this Frontline special worries me. It looks to me as though it will give far too much airtime to the anti-vacine movement anbd fall too far into the “tell both sides” journalistic trope that irritates me to no end when it comes to stories about science. Yes, the press release does quote Anders Hviid, an epidemiologist at the Statens Serum Institut in Denmark:

“Scientifically, I think the matter is settled,” says Anders Hviid, an epidemiologist at the Statens Serum Institut in Denmark. In one of the largest and most comprehensive epidemiological studies available, Hviid and colleagues analyzed data on more than a half million children and found no link between the MMR “triple shot” for measles, mumps and rubella and an increased rate of autism–a link that’s been strongly asserted for years by anti-vaccine activists. Similar epidemiological studies in Denmark also failed to reveal a link between the mercury preservative thimerosal and autism. In fact, around the world, peer-reviewed epidemiological studies have found no link between autism and either the MMR shot or thimerosal.

Quite right. Scientifically, the matter is settled, no matter how much anti-vaccine activists want to make you think that it isn’t. There is no credible scientific evidence that vaccines or thimerosal-containing vaccines cause autism–or are even correlated with autism. There is no credible evidence that vaccines cause or are even correlated with the chronic diseases attributed to them by the anti-vaccine movement.

Unfortunately, it looks as though The Vaccine War will give the loons a lot of opportunity to spew their nonsense:

But vaccine skeptics like celebrity Jenny McCarthy, whose son, Evan, was diagnosed with autism following a series of vaccinations, including MMR, are convinced that further study into the other 15 pediatric vaccines and their additives will ultimately reveal a link. “Something happened. And when I say something, I mean a behavior, a trigger,” McCarthy tells FRONTLINE. “Is it mercury? Is it the schedule? Is there just too many? My answer to people and what I’ve been telling them is, ‘It’s all of the above.’ We don’t know for sure, which is why we keep saying, ‘Study it.’”

Further vaccine safety research is what businessman J.B. Handley, who founded the autism support group Generation Rescue, has been calling for, too. Handley tells FRONTLINE he has little doubt that vaccines are responsible. “There is no real-world study that shows me that those six vaccines didn’t cause my son’s autism.”

First off, these are not “vaccine skeptics.” Skepticism involves accepting valid scientific evidence, something Jenny McCarthy and J.B. Handley are utterly incapable of doing if that evidence conflicts with their beliefs that vaccines cause autism and all sorts of other health issues. Indeed, J.B. Handley even says as much in this press release when he says that there is no real-world study that convinces him that vaccines didn’t cause his son’s autism! If that isn’t admitting that there is no scientific study or collection of data that will ever change his mind, I don’t know what is. No, Jenny McCarthy and J.B. Handley are vaccine denialists, anti-vaccinationists, anti-vaccine loons. They use classic denialist tactics of spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt, or, as we like to abbreviate it, FUD, about vaccines. They use the same sorts of FUD tactics, logical fallacies, and types of misinformation used by creationists, 9/11 Truthers, cancer quacks, Holocaust deniers, and all manner of conspiracy theorists to promote their views. They are not worthy of the term “skeptic.” They are pseudoskeptics, who reflexively doubt and attack anything that conflicts with their anti-vaccine beliefs. That is not skepticism; it is denialism. As such, it should never be presented as a counterpoint to scientists, because the opinions of J.B. Handley and Jenny McCarthy are not equivalent to science; they are reflexive rejection of science.

The results of the efforts of the anti-vaccine movement are places like Ashland, Oregon:

The mothers in the video segment above appear very reasonable. They probably are reasonable, but they are definitely wrong. Moreover, what is most irritating is the smug sense of selfishness that they exude. They don’t care about anyone else. They labor under the delustion that vaccines are 100% effective, hence their apparent belief that their decision doesn’t affect anyone but themselves and their children and that their children won’t endanger anyone else. Again, they are wrong. From my perspective, the public health officer in this segment, Dr. Jim Shames, has the patience of the proverbial saint as he tries to get through to the women in the segment, particularly the one who asks, “If I don’t vaccinate, who am I putting at risk?” This same mother seems to be laboring under the delusion that she can somehow magically keep her child from being exposed to these diseases.

Attitudes such as these only exist because of the success of vaccines. Thanks to that success, these mothers are blithely ignorant of the dangers of infectious disease and thereby convinced of their own righteousness in keeping their children safe only because they have never seen the diseases that vaccines prevent. They’ve never seen a case of measles leading to encephalitis. They’ve never seen a case of pertussis so severe that the child can’t sleep and can’t eat because of the coughing. They’ve never seen anyone crippled by polio. They’ve never seen a child with Haemophilus influenza type B meningitis. All they see is are doctors jabbing needles into their babies, and all they hear are voices on TV, the radio, and the Internet telling them that there are dire risks due to vaccines. We humans tend to value personal experience over what science tells us, and, lacking that personal experience of having seen these diseases or known parents of children who have suffered from these diseases, most people have a hard time taking the threat seriously. It’s easy to show with statistics that it is much riskier not to vaccinate than it is to vaccinate, but it’s difficult to convince a parent of that when that parent, for whatever reason, is predisposed to distrust vaccines but has never seen the consequences of a lack of vaccines.

It’s also worth noting that, despite the high percentage of unvaccinated children in Ashland, there is no evidence that autism rates are any lower there.

One aspect of this special that might be a bit less annoying is what I hope will be a substantive discussion of parental choice versus coercion:

Surveys reveal that America’s conversation about vaccines is complex, involving not only medical risks and benefits but also ideological beliefs about parental choice and the limits of government. “This is true even of individuals who see the benefits of vaccines as substantial,” political scientist Hank Jenkins-Smith tells FRONTLINE. “They still want it to be a choice. They don’t want it to be compulsory.” Government control over individual choice is another factor fueling the anti-vaccine backlash, despite the peer-reviewed science that vaccines are safe.

This is understandable. It is part of the American psyche to distrust government and to be resistant to the government telling them what to do with their children. Public health, in particular the vaccination program, is always a balance between personal rights and public good, and it is not always clear where that balance should be struck. A serious discussion of the issues on either side of the political and social debate could serve a useful purpose, if false equivalency between Jenny McCarthy’s viewpoint and that of science does not. Even so, it worries me to see the last quote being given to the grand dame of the anti-vaccine movement, Barbara Loe Fisher:

“People now have a way to get the information they couldn’t before, to communicate it to other people, and to have a robust public debate that is not controlled by money or political power or by government policy,” says Barbara Loe Fisher, president of the National Vaccine Information Center. “Physicians are going to have to get over the idea that they tell people what to do, and people are going to do it without questioning.”

As usual, BLF is being disingenuous. It is true that people can get information they didn’t have before, but a lot of it is not reliable scientific information. Rather, it’s misinformation spread by groups like hers that is leading not to a real debate based on facts, science, and evidence but rather to a manufactroversy, a pseudodebate, if you will. Scientifically, there really is no debate anymore. Politically there is. That’s not a bad thing in and of itself, but it is a bad thing if the information informing that debate is dominated by cranks like Jenny McCarthy, J.B. Handley, and Barbara Loe Fisher.

I hope I’m wrong, but unfortunately, in The Vaccine War, I smell the taint of false balance.

Comments

  1. #1 David N. Brown
    April 26, 2010

    What I find most irritating is Handley getting air time. Back in Dec 09, I amused myself by reviewing every “contribution” of his to AoA that year, and I showed that every single one contained a falsehood. On top of that, he resorts to threats of lawsuits against his critics, unfortunately with some success. Then, as if that were not bad enough, he defends the systematic censorship that is “moderation” at AoA. As far as I’m concerned, his dishonesty plus his complete disregard for free speech deserve only one response: Do as he does to others, and censor him.

    I will add something I am increasingly convinced of regarding the “Hairy Biped” and others who resort to litigation in lieu of honest argument (like Dan Olmsted against me): They are bullies, but they are cowards, and they are WEAK. When they don’t get their way by intimidation, they either lose or simply slink away. Therefore, their threats should be met with no response except ridicule for making them, and if at all possible (ie you can afford lawyers) retaliation in kind.

  2. #2 William Sentenza
    April 26, 2010

    PBS has a history of doing high quality reporting on issues even more controversial than this. For instance, NOVA’s special on the Dover trial, did feature interviews with ID advocates. But they did not water down the science at all, or present any kind of false balance.

    I am thinking that this special may be the same.

  3. #3 Anonymous
    April 26, 2010

    I’ve been disappointed with PBS for quite some time. Between Robert Kiyosaki, Peter Breggin driving Frontline “Medicating Kids,” Andrew Weil, the sponsorship of kids’ science shows by Scientology’s “Foundation for Advancements in Science and Education” (sic), horse acupuncture, Suze Orman, Nicholas Perricone, Wayne Dyer… I swear I don’t trust them as far as I could throw them anymore…

  4. #4 Rogue Medic
    April 26, 2010

    Maybe they need to give some air time to Mike Adams to show just how much the anti-vaccinationists do not understand about taking care of children, or anyone else.

    If Jenny, and the other anti-child activists, do succeed in bringing back vaccine preventable diseases and killing children, maybe then people will realize just how much this is about their popularity and not about protecting children.

  5. #5 dianne galliher
    April 26, 2010

    When my oldest son received his first triple shot, his upper thigh (where he was injected) became swollen, red and he ran a fairly high fever. When I told the doctor this, he said he would give a 1/2 dose for the next series. When my son was 13 months old, he was became severely ill and was diagnosed with kidney disease. I am not sure if there is a link.

  6. #6 Kristen
    April 26, 2010

    @William

    I am thinking that this special may be the same.

    I really hope so. There is an opportunity here for Frontline to do some good for the public health. Many parents I know just don’t have enough information, and they are trying to do the right thing but they are scared for their children. I say the more education the better, as long as it is not AoA/Generation Rescue type ‘education’ (Wow, it is painful to call it that).

    We don’t watch TV so I will await Orac’s review (or review of the reaction of anti-vaccinationists, or both).

  7. #7 Pablo
    April 26, 2010

    Does anyone else ever notice that when it comes to the vaccine stories on TV, it’s the same anti-vaccine people who show up over and over again? Jenny McCarthy, JB Handley, Barbara Loe Fischer, etc.

    Now, if you are really awares, you might recognize Hviid’s name, but you’d actually have to be very familiar with the Denmark studies. And Jim Shames? No offense, but I’ve never heard of him.

    There are a few notable names among the vaccine advocates. Paul Offit is obviously one, and Amanda Peet is the one celebrity. But this is always the way it goes, when it comes to finding vaccine supporters, they can grab any public health official, doctor, or scientist, but when it comes to anti-vaccine? Same old same old.

  8. #8 Todd W.
    April 26, 2010

    “People now have a way to get the information they couldn’t before, to communicate it to other people, and to have a robust public debate that is not controlled by money or political power or by government policy,” says Barbara Loe Fisher, president of the National Vaccine Information Center, who attempted a libel suit to silence her critics, rather than using science and public debate.

    There, fixed that press release snippet for PBS.

    The press release sounds like the episode will follow the general pattern of a FRONTLINE episode. Start with the wacky stuff, then end by obliterating the woo with reason, logic and evidence. It’s the same thing they did with the Prisoners of Silence episode discussing facilitated communication.

  9. #9 Anonymouse
    April 26, 2010

    Frontline is really top of the line when it comes to science reporting. You should check out some of their other episodes online to get a feel for what they do. And I find it very revealing that the clip they released was of the Ashland mothers–it’s not exactly flattering to the anti-vaxers, is it? I’m not worried that this special is going to make the anti-vax side look too sympathetic. Todd W. (#7 above) is describing the series pretty accurately.

  10. #10 Vindaloo
    April 26, 2010

    Orac: “The mothers in the video segment above appear very reasonable. They probably are reasonable, but they are definitely wrong. Moreover, what is most irritating is the smug sense of selfishness that they exude. They don’t care about anyone else.

    I think you’re being too nice to them. I’ve always interpreted “reasonable” as having the capability to reason: to think through an issue and to come to a conclusion based on something like the scientific process.

    These ladies aren’t reasonable. They’re composed. They are fueled by feelings and they really don’t give a crap about anyone else. They haven’t even thought through the issue to the point of realizing that their child is now more susceptible to dangerous and perhaps deadly diseases.

  11. #11 Jud
    April 26, 2010

    It’s the same thing they did with the Prisoners of Silence episode discussing facilitated communication.

    Yes, I remember that show – excellent. I think Frontline’s prior record merits waiting for the episode to air (I’ve got it set to record) before evaluating.

  12. #12 Rene Najera
    April 26, 2010

    No doubt Frontline and other “reputable” media are giving the anti-vaxers time because, if they don’t, they get sued or worse. They’ve now come after me, a “nobody” who managed to get under their skin…

  13. #13 MikeMa
    April 26, 2010

    Rene,
    You may be right as to Frontline’s and NPR’s balanced approach but I think there is also the idea that if they don’t let the loons have some time, none of their compatriots will tune in. One goal surely is to reach out to the widest audience and present credible evidence thereby swaying some away from the dark side.

    Sorry they are after you in some way.

  14. #14 superdave
    April 26, 2010

    I’d be less bothered by equal time for both sides as long as the presenters clearly indicate that the scientists are the experts and the moms are just using their anecdotal experience. In other words, it’s not the quantity of the time they are given, it’s the quality.

  15. #15 Pablo
    April 26, 2010

    I’d be less bothered by equal time for both sides as long as the presenters clearly indicate that the scientists are the experts and the moms are just using their anecdotal experience.

    I agree. Who cares if they are putting the Ashland moms on there, if they come off looking like the selfish twits that they are? That isn’t going to help them.

  16. #16 Rene Najera
    April 26, 2010

    @MikeMa

    Meh, I’ll find another job. I can pick apples with the best of them. And it will give me more time to go to their “conferences” and debate them face-to-face. It’s time they get picketed and labeled “Big Placebo”.

    Anyway, I sometimes feel that the people who listen to these Moms and not to reasonable, scientific, medical advice, are the same people who watch “Real Housewifes” and believe that all women are just as self-centered and shallow.

  17. #17 Ian
    April 26, 2010

    @Orac

    Is someone a little cranky that he didn’t get interviewed? :P

  18. #18 Science Mom
    April 26, 2010

    I had wondered why Age of Autism had not been discussing this and now I know why: http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/04/pbs-frontline-to-air-the-vaccine-war-on-april-27.html#comments

    Naturally, any unflattering depictions of the anti-vax loons MUST BE a conspiracy…yawn.

    @Rene

    They’ve now come after me, a “nobody” who managed to get under their skin…

    Can you elaborate on this?

  19. #19 red rabbit
    April 26, 2010

    Here’s the thing: midwives like to colour themselves as safe and evidence-based when it comes to delivery practices, but how can it be possible to trust someone’s “evidence-based credentials” when they are anti-vaccine?

    If they cannot read studies to make the link between vaccination and the health of the public, I have serious doubts about their ability to make sense of much of anything.

    That video made me cringe.

    My town is horrendously woo-soaked, but even here, I’m not seeing this every day.

  20. #20 Denice Walter
    April 26, 2010

    A few recent events make me feel a bit hopeful:the trials and tribulations of Andy,American court decisions about autism,the newly revealed UC,Berkeley investigation(for misconduct)of HIV/AIDS denialist,Peter Duesberg,the dropped case against Simon Singh.In addition,I haven’t seen Jenny & Co. on CNN lately,Bill Maher appears to be turning down the volume(even when interviewing food-purist restauranteur, Alice Waters!),and one of my spies reports *no* anti-vaxx talk on Imus’s radio show (perhaps a trickle-down effect in programming post-Andy?)Although it could not have been planned,the Frontline show comes at a good time.

  21. #21 Rene Najera
    April 26, 2010

    @ScienceMom

    I’ll elaborate when I can do so in public. Or I’ll go over to your blog and e-mail you. In any case, they are doing what they do best… Raise a lot of stink over something to the point that my employers are curious about my extra-curricular writing activities.

  22. #22 Ender
    April 26, 2010

    “Can you elaborate on this?”

    Yes, I’m interested too, Rene, was it to do with any of your articles you’ve written as Baltimore Disease Prevention Examiner? I clicked through to your profile but went no further.

  23. #23 Rene Najera
    April 26, 2010

    @Ender

    Yes, it has to do with the examiner.com articles and my “real” job, but, again, can’t say anything publicly.

  24. #24 James Sweet
    April 26, 2010

    PBS has a history of doing high quality reporting on issues even more controversial than this. For instance, NOVA’s special on the Dover trial, did feature interviews with ID advocates. But they did not water down the science at all, or present any kind of false balance.

    Here’s hoping. The NOVA special on the Dover trial was a masterpiece… a smackdown of epic proportions.

  25. #25 Science Mom
    April 26, 2010

    I’ll elaborate when I can do so in public. Or I’ll go over to your blog and e-mail you. In any case, they are doing what they do best… Raise a lot of stink over something to the point that my employers are curious about my extra-curricular writing activities.

    I’m sorry Rene and look forward to your email if you decide to. Stories like these re-affirm my decision to remain anonymous. Can you imagine the shit storm that would ensue if their employment was targeted the way they do to us?

  26. #26 M.
    April 26, 2010

    One thing that is not pointed out loudly enough is that the antivaccine movement has successfully destroyed its main claim.

    As we can see from the video, some people do listen to the likes of Jenny McCarthy, and stop vaccinating. And as we know, this has led to a significant drop in vaccination rates in the US and in Europe.

    Now, if vaccines are the cause of autism (or just A cause, or just the trigger), reduction in vaccine uptake has to produce a reduction in autism rates. Less vaccines, less autism.

    Vaccine uptake has dropped by almost 10% in many regions as early as 2001. Therefore, we should have a significant reduction in autism among kids under 10 years of age.

    We don’t. The “autism rate” is still increasing, in fact.

    Therefore, the antivaccinationists have themselves given us the data that shows – unequivocally – that vaccines do not cause autism, are not one of the causes of autism, and are not a trigger for autism.

    This needs to be rubbed in.

  27. #27 Pablo
    April 26, 2010

    Therefore, the antivaccinationists have themselves given us the data that shows – unequivocally – that vaccines do not cause autism, are not one of the causes of autism, and are not a trigger for autism.

    If they were honest, then sure, you could say that. However, such obvious facts don’t deter them. Just change topic and distract.

    We recently discussed how (I think it was) JB Handley himself who asserted in the early 2000s that if autism rates didn’t start declining in 2003, then the thimerasol link was dead. Well, they didn’t, and it is, but that doesn’t stop them from still going after mercury, despite the fact that thimerasol isn’t even in the normal schedule of childhood vaccines.

    The problem, M., is in thinking these people live in reality and pay attention to what actually is happening.

    Their approach is simple: they are anti-vaccine. All vaccines. Autism is just a convenient emotional appeal that they can use to get others to join their anti-autism movement. But it’s not about autism. Just look at their jumping on the Desiree Jennings case. She didn’t get autism, yet the loons at AoA hitch their wagon to her. Swine flu shots? DTaP? They have no association with autism at all, so why would someone who is concerned about autism bring them up? They are just throwing shit against the wall and hoping some of it sticks in places, while ignoring everything else.

  28. #28 Todd W.
    April 26, 2010

    @Rene

    Hope things work out. If there’s any way any of us can help, just let us know.

  29. #29 Liz Ditz
    April 26, 2010

    Oh noes! The forces of unreason are after the Baltimore Disease Prevention Examiner (BDPE)

    BDPE writes lucidly about a wide range of public health issues, not just vaccine-preventable disease.

    But that’s the way the forces of unreason roll — bully and threaten if they don’t like reading fact-based articles. See Barbara Loe Fisher, and her litigation. See J.B. Handley and his litigation history. See Age of Autism for repeated lies and threats.

  30. #30 Sid Offit
    April 26, 2010

    and likely adding decades to most of our life spans

    Reeeeeeediculious

  31. #31 Sullivan
    April 26, 2010

    There is balance and there is setting up the story.

    There is no “vaccine war” story without presenting Jenny McCarthy/JB Handley and the rest.

    The previous Frontline episode was about the “Dancing Boys of Afghanistan”. They talked to the “masters” who essentially buy and use these boys. Was that “balance”?

    Recall when Jim Carrey stated the bizarre comment “we aren’t the problem, the problem is the problem”, I believe this episode will show that Generation Rescue and the rest *are* the problem.

  32. #32 Dan Weber
    April 26, 2010

    The forces of stupid are out in, well, force at the Frontline webpage, haranguing the doctors who dare to say things they don’t like. The doctors seem pretty smart so they just have to shovel through all the crap a post at a time. They might need some help, though.

  33. #33 J Fox
    April 26, 2010

    PBS = lots of Dr Daniel Amen. What else needs to be said?

  34. #34 IDM
    April 26, 2010

    Darn, I was hoping it’d be as good as the BBC’s The War on Science documentary on Intelligent Design. It’ll still be worth a look though.

  35. #35 MikeMa
    April 26, 2010

    Sid Offit @29,
    You disagree with the ‘decades’ or ‘most’ or ‘lifespans’?

    In the past you’ve opined that vaccine preventable diseases don’t kill (much) so that only quality of life is extended, not life itself. That may be significant to the sufferers but maybe not to you.

    If you’ve a beef with the ‘most’ then you have to thank the vaccinated among us for reducing the incidence.

    If you don’t like decades, maybe you’d prefer a return to the middle ages where reaching 30 was unusual.

  36. #36 bluemaxx
    April 26, 2010

    well….knock me over. I posted a contrarian message to the AoA blog site about the upcoming Frontline special… and the denialism of the thread… and IT GOT POSTED!

    I hope Frontline does a good accurate job on the story.
    I also hope there is little opportunity to take snippet sound bites from the show to be used by the antiVac crowd… as they have in the past. Statements, posted out of context to YouTube etc….

  37. #37 Arren
    April 26, 2010

    If you don’t like decades, maybe you’d prefer a return to the middle ages where reaching 30 was unusual.

    No, no, no — Intuitively Sacred, Spiritually In-Tune Indigo Pretty People never ever died so young….. that was only for the predecessors of the rest of us.

    Since time began, ISSIIPPs have always been venerable Wise Men and Matriarchs, outliving their less-transcendent younger-souled brethren as Nature intended: to wield, hand-waving, the somnolent shepherd’s crook of obscurantist mumbo-jumbo….. the frivolous lawsuits are a more recent (and even more telling) behavior.

  38. #38 Pen
    April 26, 2010

    I know lots of anti-vaccers and I do wonder what will happen when those kids grow up and start travelling the world and moving to cities and universities with mixed and mobile populations. Or get pregnant without a rubella jab. I can imagine some of them hardly realising they are unvaccinated or what that means.

  39. #39 bluemaxx
    April 26, 2010

    #37.. great comment… and I fear that for a subset of those…
    they will no doubt somehow come to being lawsuit(s) against:

    Pediatrician
    Obstetrician
    CDC / state DOH
    for not having been adequately warned/ prepared/ counseled/ immunized.

    and the health care, social care, and other costs and sequelae of illness and impairments from poor immunization practices, will be borne by the society, the health care system, and those that chose to immunize as recommended.

  40. #40 Anthro
    April 26, 2010

    @ anonymous, #3 and J. Fox, #32

    I’d like to clarify something about PBS. Frontline is produced by PBS. The shows that are mentioned such as Weil, Orman, Dyer, Amen (and many others) are NOT produced by PBS, but by some independent consortium. Local PBS stations are fee to get programming wherever they wish and many use these alt med and such shows for their pledge drives. The ombudsman (yes there is one and he puts out a very interesting newsletter) keeps trying to explain this as people constantly write in complaining about the alt-med and other pseudo-science, new age crap that has become commonplace on PBS. It is best to complain to your local station about these programs.

    ——–

    Jenny McCarthy just posted a column on HuffPost–the usual sickening Gen. Rescue “saved my child” stuff. She wants people to vote for GR for something. I wasn’t clear on exactly what as I just skimmed it.

  41. #41 blueMaxx
    April 26, 2010

    ANTHRO:

    probably the Pepsi Grant program… with charities and causes competing on basis of Mobvoting… really scary…and there was a group of us (me included) wandering over tehre… they got pushed DOWN in the rankings so as to likely NOT qualify for a scary $250,000 grant to support GR programs.

  42. #42 Dan Weber
    April 26, 2010

    Yeah, Generation Rescue is down to #29 now on the Pepsi Refresh Everything contest. I got reminded to vote again (it had been a few days) so I sprinkled some more garlic on the corpse.

    The “Alternative Cancer Treatment With No Side Effects” thing is now #1 under the $250,000 category, though. How worried should we be?

  43. #43 Ian
    April 26, 2010

    @Dan Weber

    We should remain worried as long as companies are willing to throw money into whatever appeals to the uninformed opinions of the masses rather than investing in things based on their likely result. While it’s nice that GenRescue is not likely to win, it’s simply a matter of convenience that this particular foot-soldier of the Forces of Stupid isn’t getting the money.

    It’s the downside of capitalism and democracy – the will of the market is based on the will of the people, and the people are idiots.

  44. #44 Joseph
    April 26, 2010

    Something very odd has happened to one of ideas running for the Pepsi grant. Touchautism is the most decent autism idea in the site, as I see it. It’s running for $5K (so it’s not competing with GR.) It was ranked 12 last I checked. Now it’s ranked 289th. How is that even possible? Hopefully, it’s a bug in the system.

  45. #45 Ana Observer
    April 26, 2010

    Ashland OR is the last place in America to try to find reasonable people, except for maybe Berkeley. It’s the kind of town where locals put up posters about chemtrails, complain to the press that someone who accidentally killed some goldfish is an “assassin”, and turn out in droves to 9-11 truther meetings. If you want to know what woonatics are thinking, look at Ashland. Those anti-vax moms are absolutely typical Ashlanders.

  46. #46 Sullivan
    April 26, 2010

    Joseph,

    the TouchAutism project on the Pepsi site does look like the best charity idea I’ve seen there. The proloquo2Go software is good, and the iPod Touch’s are a good approach.

    I saw the bug you noted in the ranking as well. But when you check the leader board, that project is still 12th.

  47. #47 FreeSpeaker
    April 26, 2010

    Those moms remind me of the women in the movie, The Stepford Wives.

  48. #48 maydijo
    April 26, 2010

    #37 I worry about that too. When I was pregnant (first trimester) with my daughter my idiotic anti-vax SIL insisted on bringing her child – who had rubella – to Christmas – without telling me in advance that she had rubella. I was vaccinated but – it’d been 30 years ago, and you do need boosters for these things. Thankfully the tests showed my immunity was still good, but only *just*. I shudder to think what could have happened, and all because of her selfishness and stupidity.

  49. #49 gaiainc
    April 26, 2010

    You SIL should read Murder With Mirrors by Agatha Christie. The plot revolves around what happens when a pregnant woman is infected with rubella by someone else. Admittedly at the time that the story was written there wasn’t a vaccine. However the results are no less devastating. I think if my SIL did that to me we’d have to have words. My rubella immunity went from good to equivocal overvthe past 10 years. Yes, I’ve gotten a new MMR.

  50. #50 Rogue Medic
    April 27, 2010

    @47 maydijo,

    If my SIL did that, she would be out on the pavement as soon as I knew.

    She would have her very own, personalized restraining order, if at all possible.

    I do not see any reason to let any of these irrational people endanger my child. It is sad that her child has such an idiot for a mother, and a father who does not appear to be any smarter, but if protecting my child means being rude to an idiot relative, this is not a difficult choice.

  51. #51 jim
    April 27, 2010

    @48 gaiainc: Don’t you mean The Mirror Crack’d from Side to Side? While I don’t actually endorse the solution used in the book, this person’s stupidity and selfishness are quite breathtaking. “Words” should be had indeed, of the “get out right now and never come near me or my children again” variety.

  52. #52 Kristen
    April 27, 2010

    Slightly off topic, but I thought some of you might enjoy this.

    Just illustrates the stupidity of the ‘remove teh toxenz!’ mantra.

  53. #53 squirrelelite
    April 27, 2010
  54. #54 Pablo
    April 27, 2010

    #37 I worry about that too. When I was pregnant (first trimester) with my daughter my idiotic anti-vax SIL insisted on bringing her child – who had rubella – to Christmas – without telling me in advance that she had rubella.

    WOW, what an asshole!!!! What a selfish asshole. Typical of anti-vaxxers, but selfish asshole nonetheless.

    I’m with the others, but if that happened to us, it would be more than words. It would be very, very, very clear that I would never step in the same room with that person ever again. I would tell them to never come near me again.

    That type of action would be the thing that would end all relationships for me.

    How in the world can someone bring a child with rubella into a social setting? How idiotic must you be?

  55. #55 phoenixwoman
    April 27, 2010

    Agatha Christie apparently based the plot of The Mirror Crack’d on the real-life tragedy of Gene Tierney, who contracted rubella late in her pregnancy when an extremely stupid and selfish rubella-struck “fan” of hers snuck out of quarantine to see her at the Hollywood Canteen:

    In 1942 [Tierney's husband] Oleg Cassini became a United States citizen and served in the U.S. Army. Between routine film assignments for Fox, Tierney spent much time with Cassini at his Fort Riley, Kan. Army post, and later in Washington D.C. when he was stationed there. In 1943 Tierney gave birth to their child, Daria, who was born prematurely, severely retarded, and was eventually institutionalized. Much later, in a nightmarish twist of fate, Tierney learned that a female Marine had ignored quarantine orders to meet her idol during hostessing duties at the Hollywood Canteen. That was how the star contracted German measles late in her pregnancy – an innocent kiss from an admiring fan who wanted an autograph.

    “Everyone told me I shouldn’t go,” the starstruck woman told Tierney years later at a tennis match, not realizing what she was responsible for, “but I just had to go.you were my favorite.”

    Sadly, little Daria paid the price, and so did her mother. Many believe this cruel irony brought about a troubled emotional life later on. It also served to inspire a story (never authorized or sanctioned by Tierney) dramatized in 1980 as an Agatha Christie whodunit called “The Mirror Crack’d” starring Angela Lansbury, Elizabeth Taylor, Rock Hudson, Kim Novak, Tony Curtis, Geraldine Chaplin and Pierce Brosnan.

    Or, as Tierney herself later said:

    Fate played a terrible trick on me just before the birth of my first child, Daria. It was war time, 1943, and I went to the Hollywood Canteen to meet the soldiers and sailors. A female Marine who was there told me she had skipped quarantine that night just to come and meet me. A year later, I met the same girl again on the tennis courts at a friend’s home in Hollywood. She reminded me of the night she had broken quarantine.

    “I got the German measles,” she said. “Did you get them, too?”

    I just said, “Yes, I got the measles.” I didn’t tell her that, in the meantime, I had given birth to a retarded child because of it.

  56. #56 phoenixwoman
    April 27, 2010

    Not only did Agatha Christie write a novel (The Mirror Crack’d) about someone as stupid and selfish as Maydijo’s anti-vaccine sister-in-law, she based it on the chilling real-life experience of Gene Tierney:

    In 1942 [Tierney's husband] Oleg Cassini became a United States citizen and served in the U.S. Army. Between routine film assignments for Fox, Tierney spent much time with Cassini at his Fort Riley, Kan. Army post, and later in Washington D.C. when he was stationed there. In 1943 Tierney gave birth to their child, Daria, who was born prematurely, severely retarded, and was eventually institutionalized. Much later, in a nightmarish twist of fate, Tierney learned that a female Marine had ignored quarantine orders to meet her idol during hostessing duties at the Hollywood Canteen. That was how the star contracted German measles late in her pregnancy – an innocent kiss from an admiring fan who wanted an autograph.

    “Everyone told me I shouldn’t go,” the starstruck woman told Tierney years later at a tennis match, not realizing what she was responsible for, “but I just had to go.you were my favorite.”

    Or as Tierney herself would say years later:

    Fate played a terrible trick on me just before the birth of my first child, Daria. It was war time, 1943, and I went to the Hollywood Canteen to meet the soldiers and sailors. A female Marine who was there told me she had skipped quarantine that night just to come and meet me. A year later, I met the same girl again on the tennis courts at a friend’s home in Hollywood. She reminded me of the night she had broken quarantine.

    “I got the German measles,” she said. “Did you get them, too?”

    I just said, “Yes, I got the measles.” I didn’t tell her that, in the meantime, I had given birth to a retarded child because of it.

    The incident is thought to have led to Tierney’s breakdown and hospitalization for mental issues.

  57. #57 phoenixwoman
    April 27, 2010

    Arrgh, Orac’s spam filter must be blocking me for using too many AHREF links. Here’s another try, with non-pretty URLs:

    Not only did Agatha Christie write a novel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mirror_Crack%27d_from_Side_to_Side) about someone as stupid and selfish as Maydijo’s anti-vaccine sister-in-law, she based it on the chilling real-life experience of Gene Tierney:

    In 1942 [Tierney's husband] Oleg Cassini became a United States citizen and served in the U.S. Army. Between routine film assignments for Fox, Tierney spent much time with Cassini at his Fort Riley, Kan. Army post, and later in Washington D.C. when he was stationed there. In 1943 Tierney gave birth to their child, Daria, who was born prematurely, severely retarded, and was eventually institutionalized. Much later, in a nightmarish twist of fate, Tierney learned that a female Marine had ignored quarantine orders to meet her idol during hostessing duties at the Hollywood Canteen. That was how the star contracted German measles late in her pregnancy – an innocent kiss from an admiring fan who wanted an autograph.

    “Everyone told me I shouldn’t go,” the starstruck woman told Tierney years later at a tennis match, not realizing what she was responsible for, “but I just had to go.you were my favorite.”

    Or as Tierney herself would say years later:

    Fate played a terrible trick on me just before the birth of my first child, Daria. It was war time, 1943, and I went to the Hollywood Canteen to meet the soldiers and sailors. A female Marine who was there told me she had skipped quarantine that night just to come and meet me. A year later, I met the same girl again on the tennis courts at a friend’s home in Hollywood. She reminded me of the night she had broken quarantine.

    “I got the German measles,” she said. “Did you get them, too?”

    I just said, “Yes, I got the measles.” I didn’t tell her that, in the meantime, I had given birth to a retarded child because of it.

    The incident is thought to have led to Tierney’s breakdown and hospitalization for mental issues.

  58. #58 Dan Weber
    April 27, 2010

    #52 and #53

    My chemistry professor did something like that earlier in 90′s, publishing a politically correct version of the periodic table in the Journal of Irreproducible Results, volume 38 number 6. Your library might have archives!

  59. #59 gaiainc
    April 27, 2010

    Jim, GAH! Yes, I meant “The Mirror Cracked”. I knew I should have checked, but it was late and I knew mirrors were involved.

    I hadn’t heard about Gene Tierney. That is just heart-breaking. People who don’t vaccinate are definitely selfish, heartlessly so.

  60. #60 Anne
    April 27, 2010

    Grr, those women are so smug, full of I think, I feel, I believe. I wonder if the public health rep took the time to point out that pertussis is most contagious when the symptoms are very much like a common cold, sneezing, runny nose, etc. So their un-immunized infant could very easily be infected by someone who just has a cold.

    Got into a bit of a debate about gardasil, after someone posted a scary video about the vaccine from Align Health. One commenter said “there is evidence on both sides, you have to follow your gut.” Sigh

    On the rubella, my mother had a stillbirth as the result of first trimester rubella infection in 1965. That year, she had a friend who lost a baby and another friend who’s baby was born deaf and mentally retard also as the result of rubella during pregnancy. To bad the pro-vaccine uses science and logic and not emotion, they could trot out those who’ve been harmed by vaccine preventable diseases, but I guess a middle aged disabled person isn’t as sympathetic as a so called vaccine “damaged” child.

  61. #61 David N. Brown
    April 27, 2010

    The Tierney incident strikes me as impossible to prove either way. The fan might or might not have been the one who infected her, and her child might of might not have had birth defects anyway. But, even if the fan wasn’t responsible, she still was selfish and reckless.

    What’s interesting is that those who refuse vaccination still have plenty of other options to combat disease. Yet, according to the stories here, at least some do not use them, either. This reminds me of a little theory I have run across about “urban legends” of the supposed dangers of seat belts: It goes that these stories are a rationalization rather than a reason for refusing to buckle up; the real issue is that some people would rather go unbuckled because doing so would mean admitting they are at real risk. This would seem to fit all too well with parents who refuse to take ANY precautions against their children catching or spreading disease.

  62. #62 provaxmom
    April 27, 2010

    I was at a large autism event on Saturday. Lots of vendors and information tables. It was interesting to me, that the event ended at 3 for the vendors, and the DAN doctors stayed, trying to entice people to visit their table on the way out. If that doesn’t speak volumes of a “sales pitch-get those last straggling customers” I don’t know what does. I was almost curious enough to wander over to their table and here what they’d say. Almost.

  63. #63 Catherina
    April 27, 2010

    PVM – if you want to see customer-soliciting, pick up Dr Bob’s new “The Autism Book”. I read the first 5 pages or so on the loo this morning (*very* appropriate, I can tell you) and I am still fuming (which will translate into a blog post, or a series of those in the next couple of weeks…).

  64. #64 Ian
    April 27, 2010

    If Jenny McCarthy is disappointed with the FrontLine program, it can’t be all bad.

    This is what she just tweeted:

    JennyfromMTV Very disappointed with FRONTLINE. They interviewed our doctors (who support wanting more studies done on shots) but cut them out of show.

  65. #65 Natalie
    April 27, 2010

    Regarding vaccine preventable illnesses and children, it just occurred to me that some of the impact may be lost on modern families. Taking the Gene Tierney/Agatha Christie story as an example, people of the 1940s may have viewed deafness as a much more serious condition than modern people do. Technological, legal, and social advancements have allowed today’s people with various disabilities to live more independent and, I presume, fulfilling lives than people with disabilities in past generations. I know I was shocked at one point to learn that until comparatively recently, deaf children with completely normative mental functioning were often treated as if they were mentally retarded and institutionalized.

  66. #66 madder
    April 27, 2010

    More reason for hopefulness:

    Some guy at Entertainment Weekly has a review of the show; his take is that it is refreshingly science-based and didn’t fall for the lazy journalist report-both-sides garbage. Fascinatingly (this being Entertainment Weekly, after all), there appears to be a reasonable contingent of sane people slapping down the antivaxers in the comments.

  67. #67 Orange Lantern
    April 27, 2010

    @65

    Yeah, there overwhelming pro-vaccine sentiment in the comments, most of which is pretty well articulated. I’m surprised but pleased.

  68. #68 LW
    April 27, 2010

    Thank you, Jim! When I was a child reading every book in the house, I read that book. It made a great impression on me, and whenever I hear about unvaccinated young women, I think of it. But I didn’t remember the title. “The Mirror Crack’d”. I’ll have to find and reread it now.

  69. #69 Otto
    April 27, 2010

    Well, I think it’s amusing:

    “A number of scary articles in newspapers today to augment PBS’ scary vaccine show tonight. They interviewed me for 2 hrs and cut it all.” about 9 hours ago via TweetDeck

    “PBS show about vaccines. Don’t bother to watch it.” about 18 hours ago via TweetDeck

    http://twitter.com/JayGordonMDFAAP

    Poor baby.

  70. #70 Pablo
    April 27, 2010

    Poor Jay Gordon. Man, they did all that interview with him, discovered he was a quack and decided that he was too far out there to include in a show about reality.

    Sucks to be Jay.

    I say again, isn’t it strange that when they need an anti-vaxxer, they go to the same old suspects?

    I’ve noted before about how these folks sure can ride their “maverick doctors fighting the man” right to celebrity status.

  71. #71 maydijo
    April 27, 2010

    That wasn’t quite the end of the relationship. It would’ve been, but there’s a complicated history and I was too timid to act because of that history. I was wrong, though, and I should have acted. As it turned out the end of the relationship came two Christmases later when she insisted on bringing three children who were all in the infectious stage of chicken pox to Christmas (an 8 hour return trip for them), even though the doctor had told her to keep them at home, and even though our child had not yet had the varicella vaccine (given at 18 months here), and even though we were due to leave in a little over 2 weeks (you know, the same period of time it takes for chicken pox to make an appearance) on an overseas trip to visit my family in another country. THAT was when I told my husband he could tell his family to stick it. Which is precisely what I should’ve done a couple of years earlier with the rubella incidence . . .

    The truly idiotic thing is, she’s a nurse.

  72. #72 Phoenix Woman
    April 27, 2010

    Maydijo @ 70: She’s a nurse? Seriously? RN or LPN?

    And of course she hasn’t made the connection between her kids getting rubella and chicken pox and who knows what else and not being vaccinated — or does she think that rubella and chicken pox and all the other charming childhood diseases are a small price to pay for avoiding “toxins”? (Betcha she chelates her kids, too.)

  73. #73 maydijo
    April 27, 2010

    In Australia we have Div 1 and Div 2 nurses – she is a Div 1 which is the type that takes more training and education. This is all ancedotal, but there seems to be a strong predisposition to autism in DH’s family; when he was growing up about half of his male cousins showed symptoms that today would probably get them diagnosed as autistic (but of course back then they used different diagnostic standards); but in all cases any developmental delay seems to have disappeared completely by the time they reached about the age of 10. So, keep in mind I do not study these things professionally, but I’m sort of dubious as to whether or not it’s even autism. (And if it is, I am pretty sure that 99% of parents of autistic children wish their kids had this type, which is characterised by a learning disability and a delay in potty training and speech, but no tantrums, no emotional distance, none of that nightmare stuff that other parents have to put up with.) But, her son was diagnosed with autism, and she decided it was the vaccines – so her oldest child is vaccinated (although she never recieved the 4YO MMR booster); her middle child is half-vaccinated; and her youngest child (who was the child with rubella) is unvaccinated. Meanwhile her son, as a 9 year old, is now developmentally on-track.

    To my knowledge – which, keep in mind, is limited, because my MIL (who is our only source of information for SIL and her family) knows how I feel about such things – she did not resort to anything like chelation. I know she did behavior modification and early intervention. The family is devout Muslim so their diet is already limited; I’m not sure if she restricted his diet further or not. (And yes, I know, the natural question is, why is she insisting they celebrate Christmas if they’re devout Muslims? As I said it’s complicated.) As far as I can tell, her view on vaccines is, “They caused my son’s autism and they don’t always work for everyone anyway, so what’s the point?”

    All of which is quite sad on its own – but when you consider her complete lack of regard for other people’s children, and when you consider that she will take her children to Egypt for months at a time, without vaccinating them against anything – at some point it stops being sad and starts being maddening.

  74. #74 SC (Salty Current)
    April 27, 2010

    Ugh. “When do we stop vaccinating for polio?” When it’s gone and no longer a danger. Which it would be soon, if it weren’t for people like you. Idiot.

    Do the fathers have anything to say at all?

    I love how they show kids in a gymnastics class. No risk there.

  75. #75 gpmtrixie
    April 27, 2010

    And commenters take down both the unhappy critic and JB Handley here (if it is him)

    http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/92159099.html

    I missed the first 5 minutes or so, but all in all, I think it was pretty clear the show came down on the side of science. I loved that Cynthia Cristofani.

  76. #76 squirrelelite
    April 28, 2010

    I just watched the show and overall, I thought it was very good. It presents a pretty good case in favor of vaccination which people who are willing to listen to the science will probably accept and act on.

    It also points out the selfish attitude and diversionary tactics of the anti-vaccine movement.

    Unfortunately, too many people have already made up their minds and will echo J.B. Handley when he said, “I don’t give a …”

  77. #77 Lexi
    April 28, 2010

    #42 I had the same concerns when I first saw the “cancer cure with no side effects” thing, so I did some Googling. Apparently, John Kanzius has invented some sort of magical radio wave cancer treatment machine. He’s not a doctor or scientist, but he at least acknowledges his lack of expertise in the field. I wasn’t able to find a ton of information, but there’s a Wired article here: http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2008/04/kanzius_therapy

    It doesn’t look like there are any clinical trials yet (it’s still very experimental), but maybe there could be some promise there? I’m certainly no expert on cancer, so I’d love to hear some other skeptics’ views on this.

  78. #78 Lexi
    April 28, 2010

    #48 My grandmother contracted Rubella while she was pregnant and had a miscarriage. I think if she were alive today, she would encourage people to vaccinate because she’s seen first hand what the consequences of those diseases are.

  79. #79 Otto
    April 28, 2010

    Courtesy of MDC, the suspicion that Desiree Jennings was a false-flag attack:

    “If [Desiree Jennings] was a hoax it makes me wonder what her motive was – who paid this girl enough to do such a thing and why? It would make me even more distrusting of Big Pharma if its proved to be a hoax. Last I remember she had a website up and was doing much better, said she was helped by natural minded docs. Now I can’t find the site at all its vanished. Very suspicious indeed. Another possibility, its not a hoax at all, but someone paid her to take DOWN her site. It did seem real to me though.

    “I haven’t watched the [Frontline] program.”

  80. #80 Sid Offit
    April 28, 2010

    Paul Offit, vaccines add 30 years to lifespan? Really?

  81. #81 hardindr
    April 28, 2010

    I watched the Frontline program in question last night. I think it did a good job of giving enough time for people like Paul Offit and other scientists to explain that vaccines are safe, while giving the bare minimum amount of time to anti-vaccination activists like Jenny McCarthy and JB Handley. In the end, if you are going to do a news program like this, you are going to have to give people who oppose vaccination an opportunity to express their views, the minimum for “balance” in journalism.

    Of course, there is always Mazur’s Observation to worry about…

  82. #82 maydijo
    April 28, 2010

    Re: “balance” in journalism – if it ain’t the truth, there’s no point reporting it. Saying that the anti-vax crowd should be given an equal say in the name of ‘balance’ is like saying that the 9/11 Truthers or the Obama Birthers should also be given equal time in the news. You don’t have to give equal time to every stupid conspiracy theory out there – particularly when it’s as disproven and just-plain-harmful as the anti-vax lies.

  83. #83 hardindr
    April 28, 2010

    I don’t think the Frontline episode gave “equal time” to the anti-vaxxers, I think it gave them just enough time to establish journalistic balance. They got to speak their piece, and then they were challenged and refuted. It would be very odd to do a program entitled, “The Vaccine War,” and not include at least a token amount from the anti-vaxxers.

  84. #84 maydijo
    April 28, 2010

    Sorry, I misunderstood your point.

  85. #85 Diligence
    May 2, 2010

    FYI on financial support for some of the most influential national nonprofits.

    http://www.cspinet.org/integrity/nonprofits/index.html

  86. #86 Paula T. Myers
    March 26, 2012

    Hello,

    Just dropping by. I’ve read your post. I find this movie interesting. I want to watch it. Thanks.