If my post today is a bit shorter on the usual Respectfully and not-so-Respectfully Insolent verbiage that you’ve come to know and love (or hate), I hope you’ll forgive me. It’s hard not to sit back, rest a bit, and enjoy the spectacle of Andrew Wakefield being pilloried in the press in the wake of the BMJ’s article documenting his scientific misconduct in gory detail. He’s gotten away far too long with trying to split the difference when credulous journalists “tell both sides of the story” so that to those not knowledgeable about his scientific fraud and incompetence it seems as though there really are two sides to the story of whether or not the MMR vaccine causes autism. I realize that schadenfreude is generally considered a less than honorable emotion, but, you know what? Sometimes it’s not only justified, but necessary.

This is one of those times.

Of course, we all knew that the counterattack was coming. Even though the press was in general far better than it usually is about stories like this, it still couldn’t resist letting some of Wakefield’s defenders make fools of themselves, starting with Wakefield himself. Now, I realize that it would be impossible for any self-respecting journalist worth his salt to ignore Andrew Wakefield after the BMJ published a bombshell story like this, but a guy can hope, can’t he? Worse, as Media Spy points out, even though it gave Wakefield a hard time, CNN still framed the story in the same “he says, she says” way that gives aid and comfort to pseudoscience. Even so, I will say that, in spite of the irritating “tell both sides” framing of the story by CNN, Anderson Cooper did as good a job as I’ve ever seen trying to pin down the slick and slimy Andrew Wakefield, who beamed in via Skype from the anti-vaccine conference he is speaking at in Jamaica:


First, it is gratifying to note that Anderson Cooper would have none of Wakefield’s dissembling. But, first, we’re treated to a “greatest” hits of Wakefield’s favorite whines. For example, Wakefield plays the persecution card, coupled with the conspiracy card, with just a dash of the lone nut card (as he tries to paint investigative journalist Brian Deer as an obsessed lunatic out to get him), as this transcript shows:

ANDREW WAKEFIELD, AUTHORED RETRACTED AUTISM STUDY: Well, you know, I have had to put up with this man’s false allegations for many, many years. I have written a book. And in that book…

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: But this is not just one man. This is — this is published in “The British Medical Journal.”

(CROSSTALK)

WAKEFIELD: No. And — and I have not as yet had a chance to read that, but I have read his multiple allegations on many occasions.

He is a hit man. He’s been brought in to take me down because they are very, very concerned about the adverse reactions to vaccines that are occurring in children.

COOPER: Wait a minute, sir. Let me just stop you right there.

This was an excellent move on Cooper’s part. He didn’t let Wakefield get on a roll with his usual schtick. When Wakefield alleged a conspiracy, Cooper first called him out for referring to Brian Deer as a “hit man,” and then asked Wakefield who he thinks is paying Deer to “bring him down.” Wakefield then goes into a classic pharma shill gambit:

WAKEFIELD: And he’s — you know, who brought this man in? Who is paying this man? I don’t know. But I do know for sure that he’s not a journalist like you are. And…

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Well, he — he’s actually signed a document guaranteeing that he has no financial interest in any of this, or no financial connections to anyone who has an interest in this.

(CROSSTALK)

WAKEFIELD: Well, that’s interesting you should say that, because he was supported in his investigation by the Association of British Pharmaceutical Industries, which is funded directly and exclusively by the pharmaceutical industry. So…

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: According to him, he’s received no funding from — from any parties that have interests in this over the last three years.

But let’s just — let’s talk about some of the specifics that he is claiming. You’re basically saying this is a — some sort of conspiracy against you. Is that — is that your argument?

WAKEFIELD: Conspiracy is your word.

What this is, is a ruthless, pragmatic attempt to crush any investigation into valid vaccine safety concerns, not just my concerns. I’m here at a meeting of experts on vaccines from around the world who are very — extremely concerned about the safety of vaccines and the damage that they believe and I believe is being done to children.

So let me get this straight. According to Wakefield, this shadowy cabal of–well, he doesn’t exactly know who but he knows they’re evil and he knows they’re ruthlessly trying to harm children by preventing his brave maverick investigation into finding The One True Cause of Autism That is Vaccines–is trying to take him down because he’s apparently some sort of threat to their nefarious plans to make children autistic. Meanwhile, Wakefield’s down in Jamaica, chilling and playing to his base, so to speak, being feted by the anti-vaccine movement and held up as an “expert” and a hero. Let’s take a look a this conference for a moment. The conference has the delightfully Orwellian name of Vaccine Safety: Evaluating the Science. Its purpose is described thusly:

The “Vaccine Safety: Evaluating the Science” Conference has been organized to address concerns raised by the scientific community about the scientific evidence, policy, law and ethics of vaccination. Fears of global pandemics have been used by the World Health Organization and governments around the world to push for increasingly aggressive vaccination programs. While questions about vaccine safety continue to be raised, concerns have largely been downplayed by governments, regulatory agencies, and the pharmaceutical industry. Contrary to a widespread belief that vaccine safety is completely and unequivocally established, the work of a number of scientists suggests that the opposite might be true.

The conference will bring together leading scientists whose research has raised concerns about aspects of vaccine safety. Several well-established proponents of mass vaccination campaigns have also been invited to present their views and evidence. The participants will include basic and clinical researchers who have studied a range of issues from the toxic potential of various vaccine ingredients to the expression of human diseases. The overall goal of the meeting is to provide a critical analysis of the existing data on vaccine safety and an evaluation of what further research is needed in the future. The conference conclusions can be expected to have a profound impact on the development of health policies concerning vaccines and will serve to provide a science-based overview for the general public.

Uh-oh. The “toxic potential of various vaccine ingredients”? Oh, no! It’s the toxin gambit! I do, however, somehow doubt that the conference conclusions will have any influence whatsoever on public health officials. Nor should they. Look at the list of speakers participating in the conference, if you don’t believe me; they’re basically as bad as the conference from more than a year ago hosted by Barbara Loe Fisher’s National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC), as documented elsewhere. Come to think of it, it’s no surprise that BLF is one of the sponsors of this conference as well. As for the speakers, there are Andrew Wakefield, Russell Blaylock (who is as loony as they come), Raymond Obomsawin (whose outright misrepresentation of data is legend) Richard Deth, Barbara Loe Fisher, and other luminaries in the anti-vaccine movement. What, no Dr. Jay Gordon? He must not have been available for a trip to Jamaica in January!

The rest of Wakefield’s defense boils down to, in essence, “Buy my book!” and “Brian Deer is a big poopy pants!” He also repeated the same tired claim that his work has been replicated. It hasn’t. I have to give major props to Anderson Cooper for coming up with the best retort I’ve heard to Wakefield’s nonsense:

But, sir, if you’re lying, then your book is also a lie. If your study is a lie, your book is a lie.

Personally I would have repeated the old joke, with Wakefield as its punchline. How do you know when Andrew Wakefield is lying? His lips are moving and sound is coming out of his mouth, which is pretty much what Brian Deer said in this interview, along with pointing out how Wakefield was in it largely for the money:

It is indeed ludicrous how fast Wakefield is at throwing around false charges against his enemies that they are somehow in the pocket of big pharma when Wakefield was going after money from the very beginning, money from trial lawyers suing vaccine manufacturers, money from a patent for a vaccine designed to compete with the MMR, money from pretty much everything.

Perhaps the silliest attempts to downplay Dr. Wakefield’s perfidy came from our old “friend,” Dr. Jay Gordon, who has been Twittering away on his Twitter account, @JayGordonMDFAAP. Here’s a sampling from Dr. Jay’s Tweets from the last day or so:

  • I changed the way I vaccinate kids in 1980. I saw unusual behavior after the usual combinations. Wakefield changed nothing for me. Relax.
  • I still give shots every day. Just can’t stand the CDC schedule and stopped using it in 1980. (Wakefield was still in med school back then.)
  • Focus on Wakefield is a distraction. So many possible toxins in kids’ lives: flame retardants, plastics and more.Vaccines play a role though

So, basically, we have more data-free, evidence-free, confirmation bias-driven nonsense spread by Dr. Jay to his 7,000 or so followers. Once again, he repeats his belief that vaccines play a role in autism. Once again, he promotes his individual clinical experience as having more weight than science, epidemiology, and clinical trials. Once again, he demonstrates the arrogance of ignorance. Once again, I expect him to show up in the comments again, plaintively whining that Orac is mean and just plain being too hard on poor, poor, pitiful Jay, who likened Deer and BMJ going after Wakefield to, well, here’s the Tweet:

BMJ and Deer slamming Lancet and Wakefield is like GM and Ford coming after Toyota and Volvo: Maybe some truth but read skeptically.

In other words, Dr. Jay is completely buying into Wakefield’s lies about the criticisms directed at him, namely that it’s all about money and trying to suppress Wakefield as a threat to vaccine manufacturer’s profits. For shame, Dr. Jay! For shame!

In particular, for shame for not even being able to maintain even some degree of logical consistency:

Don’t get me wrong, the Lancet’s irresponsibility in publishing the article was tragic. Wakefield has good ideas but study was inconclusive

Huh? If Wakefield had “good ideas” but his study was only “inconclusive,” then why was The Lancet‘s irresponsibility in publishing the article “tragic”? Dr. Jay can’t even make sense in his pseudoscientific arguments! Even worse, he’s mischaracterizing the situation. Wakefield’s study was not just “inconclusive,” it was fraudulent. Dr. Jay also totally misunderstands the nature of peer review, as he demonstrated in the comments of my post:

The Lancet” should not have published a study drawing conclusions from such a small sample size. Medical authors, as we all know, need guidance from editors and from peers. Dr. Wakefield did not get that guidance.

Let me just explain the purpose of peer review from Dr. Jay. Dr. Jay is partially correct, as far as it goes, when he appears to concede that Wakefield’s article should never have been published in The Lancet, given that, even if it hadn’t been fraudulent, small case studies such as Wakefield’s usually are not published in such high ranking, high impact journals. They are usually published in middle to lower tier journals, the proper place for them. Be that as it may, it is not the job of peer reviewers to “give guidance” to medical authors. It is the job of peer reviewers to criticize manuscripts and tell the authors if they pass scientific muster and report results sufficiently compelling and scientifically or medically interesting to be published in their journal. Arguably, in this The Lancet‘s peer reviewers failed utterly. Even so, Wakefield didn’t need guidance from editors and peers. He needed someone to discover his fraud and stop him before he published his fraudulent results. Either that, or he needed someone to convince him that going to the press to promote his view that vaccines cause a syndrome of regressive autism with enterocolitis was irresponsible in the extreme. The reason Wakefield has managed to publish as much as he has and because peer review failed in his case is because the scientific enterprise is largely built on trust. As a consequence, peer review is notoriously awful at detecting outright fraud and fabricated results. When it does, usually it is because of a particularly egregious bit of fabricated results that a sharp-eyed reviewer picks up, such as a doctored autoradiograph. Wakefield’s authors didn’t doubt him because they trusted him. As a result, the reputations of some of his collaborators were seriously damaged. Dr. Jay really needs to learn the difference between incompetent science and outright fraud.

One interesting aspect of the defense of Andrew Wakefield is who isn’t circling the wagon around him. Sure, the usual suspects are there: J.B. Handley, Andrew Wakefield himself, Dr. Jay Gordon, the National Autism Association, John Stone, and a variety of other anti-vaccine activists. Notice, however, who is not defending Andrew Wakefield this time. Believe it or not, Jenny McCarthy refused to be interviewed regarding the latest about Andrew Wakefield. One wonders if she’s finally figured out that her previous defenses of him, such as the one she and her then-boyfriend Jim Carrey published last year, when the GMC ruled that Wakefield committed scientific fraud, is a serious liability.

Or not. I just noticed on her Twitter feed that Jenny McCarthy has posted a link to a J.B. Handley’s interview, in which he defended Andrew Wakefield (deconstructed yesterday). And so it goes.

So it also goes that I ended up writing one of my usual logorrheic epics, even though I hadn’t planned on it as I sat down with my laptop to write. I guess scientific fraud that endangers children has that effect on me.

Comments

  1. #1 John Stone
    January 12, 2011

    “Are you saying that a lot of news outlets aren’t republishing the article for fear of being sued for libel?”

    Or are legally sceptical of something which cannot be substantiated for reasons I have pointed out.

    “Also, the British Medical Journal published Deer’s article, and published an editorial calling Wakefield’s research a fraud. Why would they do so if they weren’t sure that their assertions were libel proof? Are they simply too small-time for Wakefield to bother suing them?”

    I think they are foolish irrespective of whether anyone sues.

  2. #2 Matthew Cline
    January 12, 2011

    @John Stone:

    Or are legally sceptical of something which cannot be substantiated for reasons I have pointed out.

    As far as I can tell, according to your reasoning, no accusation of clinical research fraud can ever be substantiated, since medical records can’t be assumed to be accurate.

  3. #3 Rebecca Fisher
    January 12, 2011

    @John Stone

    Perhaps you may care to answer my question here, in a more informal environment, which you’ve studiously ignored in the BMJ: (After all, as you’re always accusing others of ignoring your own Rapid Responses, you’ll obviously be keen to clear this one up.)

    Which part of Mr Deer’s article do you allege to be false?

    By “false” I mean “factually untrue”, or “outright lies”, as opposed to some vague hand-waving and waffling about Mr Deer not having the right to see the information, or other such diversions (such as trying to smear me personally as an unreliable participant in such a discussion). Which bits are lies – and when will Mr Wakefield be taking steps to bring legal proceedings to defend his reputation against said falsehoods?

    So, again John – and I’m sure you’re keen to clear this up;

    Which bits of Mr Deer’s article are lies?

    Kind regards,

    Becky

  4. #4 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    January 12, 2011

    “Which part of Mr Deer’s article do you allege to be false?”

    He can’t tell you because he doesn’t read things properly.

    He’s a bleeding idiot!

  5. #5 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    January 12, 2011

    Just to say that I
    Only want to make it clear that
    He is
    Not the

    Sharpest
    Tool in the box and,
    Of course, he’d say that I was
    Not right; but I don’t care… he’s just
    Egregiously stupid.

    I can’t imagine what he
    Sees in Andy Wakefield’s work…

    Aaaaaaanyway….

    To hell with him
    Out of the house with him
    Totally unable to read anything properly
    And absolutely useless as an editor; and
    Lazy, to boot…

    Tell me, man
    What
    Art
    Thou?

  6. #6 John Stone
    January 12, 2011

    David N Andrews

    If I may say so you sound a little overwrought, which would be surprising unless I had hit home.

    Incidentally, is the Nick Andrews that accompanied you on bass in your pop-video by any chance the Health Protection Agency epidemiologist who has co-authored dozens of related studies?

    http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=74

  7. #7 Joseph
    January 12, 2011

    No, I doubt whether Brian Deer has has the knowledge or objectivity to interpret the data, and we are getting his version. For example, his failure to record that child one’s hearing difficulties at 9 months coincided with an ear infection and ws unlikely to be an early marker for autism:

    http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7452.full/reply#bmj_el_247730

    I am waiting for someone like Deer or the BMJ editorial team to come back to me on this. It isn’t and isolated point but it is a simple one to illustrate.

    It’s possible that’s Deer’s mistake. On the other hand, the only source of the claim about the ear infection, if I’m not mistaken, is Wakefield, correct? Well, Wakefield’s word is about the lowest form of evidence there is, in my view. I’d like to have a better idea of what the records say exactly.

    Deer’s claim was: “one of the mother’s concerns was that he could not hear properly.” This doesn’t sound like something the mother necessarily attributed to an ear infection.

  8. #8 John Stone
    January 12, 2011

    Joseph

    The point was in Wakefield’s PCC complaint in March 2009, and in his book ‘Callous Disregard’ p.191. If Wakefield was wrong on this point Deer has had nearly two years to consider it: it would have been even stronger evidence of Wakefield’s perfidy, but Deer doesn’t mention it. Indeed, it may very well have been a mistake by Deer when he first published the claim in the Sunday Times in February 2009 but it is hard to see how it could be so now two years later when it has been pointed out many times. He has also had two days to respond to my post in BMJ Rapid Responses and has so far not done so. The longer it goes on the worse it gets.

  9. #9 Triskelethecat
    January 12, 2011

    Hmm….JS claims that the point was in Wakers’ PCC complaint in 2009. I don’t trust ANYTHING Wakers says in Callous Disregard. A liar can lie better in his own book. OK. AND what is the status of that PCC complaint? Or, (like Wakers’ lawsuit against Brian Deer which he dropped and ended up having to pay costs) did it quietly disappear because Wakers didn’t want more scrutiny of the data?

    Given that the UK has some pretty draconian libel laws, if Wakers et.al wanted to sue for libel, the BMJ and Brian Deer would have some major problems. Strange that we haven’t heard anything about a libel suit. Why do you think that is, John? Maybe because Wakers doesn’t have a snowball’s chance of winning?

  10. #10 John Stone
    January 12, 2011

    Well, lets see if BMJ, or Brian Deer or Rebecca Fisher (if they are not one and the same) can respond.

  11. #11 Science Mom
    January 12, 2011

    But actually, these allegations have not repeated widely in the British media – nor were they when they were first made in 2009 (outside Times newspapers). This time (since the allegations were in the BMJ not the Sunday Times) there was a comment piece by Deer in the ST in which again the allegations were not repeated. There was a brief report in the Telegraph but the rest of the British media, including the BBC left it quite alone. So, I don’t think there is widespread confidence in the veracity.

    What a load of bollocks Stone. The Times has deep pockets and have blithely announced they have funded Mr. Deer’s investigation. Your speculation that other outlets haven’t run with it because of the story’s veracity is just that. Besides, the Guardian is carrying the story, or did you conveniently miss that too?

  12. #12 Militant Agnostic
    January 12, 2011

    Well, lets see if BMJ, or Brian Deer or Rebecca Fisher (if they are not one and the same) can respond.

    And this, boys and girls, is an example of the incoherent ravings of a Complete Fucking Idiot. Proof that the anti-vaxxers are completely uninhibited by the constraints of reality. Cue the tone trolls.

  13. #13 Triskelethecat
    January 12, 2011

    Hey! It’s the Sullivan is Bonnie Offit gambit! Rebecca is Brian Deer OR the BMJ? How can a person be a journal? John Stone has just proven that he makes NO sense whatsoever, nor does he know what a medical journal is.

  14. #14 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    January 12, 2011

    And Militant Agnostic pulls out a brilliant one:

    ” ‘Well, lets see if BMJ, or Brian Deer or Rebecca Fisher (if they are not one and the same) can respond.’

    And this, boys and girls, is an example of the incoherent ravings of a Complete Fucking Idiot. Proof that the anti-vaxxers are completely uninhibited by the constraints of reality. Cue the tone trolls.”

    Brilliant pick-up, MA.

    I’ve had a run-in with that Stone pillock over at BMJ… he’s claiming things about what I wrote that I never fucking said!

    I think he needs to go back to his doctor and ask for those nice pills that keep his head on the rational side of the borderland leading to psychosis. What a fucking tosser.

  15. #15 One Queer Fish
    January 12, 2011

    Can you “hear the silence” from your Messiah Deer, rings a bell does it not?Simply, Mr Stone should have had a reply by now surely , unless of course Mr Stone has hit the nail on the head yet again, struck it home to Deer worshipers ,that DEERS THE FRAUD everyone in the Autism community knows he is… That aside simply a small dose of denial and a trembling but sort of stiff upper lip will see you Deer worshipers through at the end of the day.

  16. #16 Chris
    January 12, 2011

    One Queer Fish: WTF?

  17. #17 SC (Salty Current)
    January 12, 2011

    Well, lets see if BMJ, or Brian Deer or Rebecca Fisher (if they are not one and the same) can respond.

    This is a joke, right?

    AND what is the status of that PCC complaint? Or, (like Wakers’ lawsuit against Brian Deer which he dropped and ended up having to pay costs) did it quietly disappear because Wakers didn’t want more scrutiny of the data?

    According to the timeline in Part 2 of Deer’s report:

    February 2009: The Sunday Times alleges that Wakefield “fixed” the appearance of a link between MMR and autism. He denies fraud and files a complaint with the UK Press Complaints Commission, which he later abandons

  18. #18 Science Mom
    January 12, 2011

    This is a joke, right?

    No, sadly, he’s serious. Stone sees conspiracy wherever he looks.

    Can you “hear the silence” from your Messiah Deer, rings a bell does it not?

    Dumbass, Mr. Deer has responded here, on several RI posts and on Leftbrain/Rightbrain. We are perfectly capable of evaluating Mr. Deer’s investigation for ourselves and agree with him. This in stark contrast to the average anti-vaxx or vaccine-autism twoo believer who has to be spoon-fed pabulum from their fearless, not-scientist leaders.

  19. #19 Matthew Cline
    January 12, 2011

    “Deer worshipers”? His latest reports were done for the BMJ, which also put out an editorial calling Wakefield’s research fraudulent. Does that mean we’re also BMJ worshipers?

  20. #20 Matthew Cline
    January 12, 2011

    Also, you act as if a single error on Deer’s part means that everything he’s said is a lie.

  21. #21 One Queer Fish
    January 12, 2011

    Strange boorish attitude on a site that seems to take pleasure in the suffering of children thanks to the Fraud Deer has spun. His Fraud is in complete contrast to the video /letter below from the parents of the Lancet 12 ..Simply a fraud spun at the epicentre by Deer

  22. #22 Science Mom
    January 12, 2011

    Fraud is in complete contrast to the video /letter below from the parents of the Lancet 12 ..Simply a fraud spun at the epicentre by Deer

    Oh but of course, the parents adore him so he can’t possibly be lying to them and the world, for that matter. It’s like a really warped Stockholm Syndrome.

    Really dumbass, some credulous parents’ adulation for the finkface doesn’t counter the fraud against them he perpetuated, and continues to do so.

  23. #23 Chris
    January 12, 2011

    OQF, r…i…g…h…t, a mother who stood to benefit from a lawsuit reading a letter is real evidence. Not.

  24. #24 One Queer Fish
    January 12, 2011

    Chris shoot the messenger ,just about right on this site going on the little I have read Offit.. Why not investigate Brian Deer and the pharma ties of his newspaper bosses? Now any impartial ,unbiased, non pharma, normal inquisitive sane mind would do that ,wouldn’t they now. Quite simply your Messiah Deer could answer Mr Stones questions but he chooses not to ,of course nothing to hide Mr Deer have we .I remember Deer disclosed on lbrb that he had the children’s medical files kicking around in his apartment for a couple of weeks? Now is his name Brian Lawrence or Brian Liar would the real Brian please stand up??

    Heres the parents Part 2 Deer worshipers ENJOY!!

  25. #25 MartinM
    January 12, 2011

    everyone in the Autism community knows he is

    Do not presume to speak for me.

  26. #26 Matthew Cline
    January 12, 2011

    @One Queer Fish:

    Strange boorish attitude on a site that seems to take pleasure in the suffering of children…

    I don’t see anyone here taking pleasure in the suffering of any children.

    … thanks to the Fraud Deer has spun.

    How has anything deer published lead to children suffering? By counteracting the downturn in MMR usage?

    Also, it’s not like the only source of anti-Wakefield information is Wakefield. There’s also the GMC and the BMJ. Which isn’t to say that the GMC and BMJ are infallible, they every word undoubtedly correct, but they’re two groups of medical professionals who agree with Deer. So discrediting Deer isn’t going to rehabilitate Wakefield, unless you can also prove that Deer tricked the GMC and BMJ into turning against Wakefield.

  27. #27 Chris
    January 12, 2011

    But is was only a paper about twelve case studies that did not prove anything to with either version of the MMR that the children received. Why does it still cause such furor?

    Why does it even matter to you, OQF?

  28. #28 One Queer Fish
    January 12, 2011

    The GMC and the British Medical Journal are hardly considered “independent” bodies of science and by independent I mean not tied to pharmaceutical financial interests and doctors who promote drugs and in this case vaccines.
    Deer’s adventures in Phantasy land would be more apt for all the diatribes he has written. If Deer hadn’t spun the lies he spun specialist doctors at the top end of gastroenterology could have got on and treated the Autistic children instead of attending kangaroo sham trials ,based on your Messiah Deer’s lies. …It seems to me that your all being drawn into Messiah Deers Phantasy land ,dangerous Times.. but even the dreamers have to get real one day guys…Brian Lawrence/ Deer/Liar is at the epicentre spinning for all he is worth.Look outside Phantasy land newspapers, associates of Deer, who at one time would have published his lies with haste are not they are all gradually stepping away and telling Deer he is great and doing a great job such as Golden Ache in the Guardian today ,so that when the bubble bursts Deers associates have stepped aside and Deer being at the centre of it all cops it all Pharma says nothing to do with us and carry on peddling death in vaccines …now that’s the real world..

  29. #29 Matthew Cline
    January 12, 2011

    @One Queer Fish:

    If Deer hadn’t spun the lies he spun …

    Like, say, that the PCR tests Wakefield did to test for the measles virus were hopelessly flawed? I suppose that’s a lie, and the PCR tests were perfectly fine?

    Also, do you have any evidence to back up your claim that gastroenterologists were lining up to treat Wakefield 12, but changed their minds because of Deer?

    so that when the bubble bursts Deers associates have stepped aside and Deer being at the centre of it all cops it all

    What exactly would this bursting bubble look like? Deer losing a libel lawsuit? Wakefield already tried suing Deer for libel, but then dropped the suit and ended up paying for Deer’s legal fees.

    Also, “cops it all”? Are you saying that Deer would fall on his sword to protect his Pharma Overlords? Why would he do that, rather than selling them out?

    carry on peddling death in vaccines

    Hmmm. What’s your opinion on the vaccination campaign against smallpox? Maybe smallpox is still around, merely having been relabled as chicken-pox/monkey-pox? And maybe paralytic polio was caused by DDT/pesticides rather than the virus?

  30. #30 Science Mom
    January 12, 2011

    Re: # 223 I see another vaccine-autism crank has gone unhinged. Evidence-free, check; unintelligible, inchoate diatribe, check. Where ever will they all go now?

  31. #31 Monica Silverio
    January 12, 2011

    IT DOESNT TAKE A BRAIN SURGEON TO FIGURE IT OUT.KNOWLEDGE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND. MY SON IS ONE OF THE AUTISM HEARING CHILDREN . I RECEIVED RHOGAM SHOT IN MY FIRST TRIMESTER. VACCINATIONS, LETHAL TOXINS INCREASE 500 PERCENT DONT QUOTE ME AUTISM INCREASES BY 1000 PERCENT. all THEY CARE ABOUT IS THE BOTTOM LINE. cORRUPT CONSPIRACY, MANSLAUGHER INVOLVED B RING THEM NOT TO JUSTICE ,TO PRISON NO PAROL AND WORSE. It Will all come out, Andrew will be ok

  32. #32 Chris
    January 12, 2011

    Ah, yes, you have made it all clear Ms. Silverio. ALL CAPS is a wonderful substitute for evidence.

  33. #33 LW
    January 12, 2011

    Quoting Monica Silverio:

    VACCINATIONS, LETHAL TOXINS INCREASE 500 PERCENT DONT QUOTE ME AUTISM INCREASES BY 1000 PERCENT.

    I wonder why she doesn’t want us to quote her? Surely information so important that it must be screamed out in ALL CAPS should be spread about more widely?

  34. #34 Militant Agnostic
    January 12, 2011

    All-One or None! One science for all Humanity. Offit’s Manual of Discipline based on Singer’s Moral ABC, the Army of principals of Epidemiology-Science Unites the Human Race as discovered in 1955 by Salk in Watson-Crick double helix. English by blogger Orac. All-One

  35. #35 Matthew Cline
    January 12, 2011

    I wonder why she doesn’t want us to quote her?

    I’m guessing that “don’t quote me” is shorthand (extremely short) for “don’t quote at me those studies claiming to find no link between vaccines and autism”.

  36. #36 Calli Arcale
    January 12, 2011

    I wonder why she doesn’t want us to quote her? Surely information so important that it must be screamed out in ALL CAPS should be spread about more widely?

    The anti-McElwaine, perhaps?

    “UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED, ESPECIALLY to COMPUTER BULLETIN BOARDS.”

    Ah, the halcyon days of Usenet, when there was a different class of net kook, with a certain degree of originality which the modern ones largely lack.

  37. #37 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    January 13, 2011

    “If I may say so you sound a little overwrought, which would be surprising unless I had hit home.”

    You’re joking,right?

    Explaining this one to John Stone is likely to take ages. Not gonnae bother.

    “Incidentally, is the Nick Andrews that accompanied you on bass in your pop-video by any chance the Health Protection Agency epidemiologist who has co-authored dozens of related studies?”

    Um… are you sure you really want to ask that question? I mean… really?

  38. #38 One Queer Fish
    January 13, 2011

    Cough!!lbrb medical files in Deers apartment??l-a-t-e-r WHat was it Deer said he was supervised was that in his”apartment as well??

    Simply you need to look outside Phantasy land that Deluded Deer has got you all involved in.

    A few of the organisations who support Dr Wakefield

    Age of Autism
    Autism Action Network
    Autism Media Channel
    Autism One
    Autism File Global
    Autism Research Institute
    Elizabeth Birt Center for Autism Law and Advocacy
    Generation Rescue
    National Autism Association
    Schafer Autism Report
    TACA-Talk About Curing Autism
    The Autism Trust USA/UK
    The Coalition for SafeMinds
    Unlocking Autism

    The following peer-reviewed papers support Dr. Wakefield’s original findings:

    Furlano R, Anthony A, Day R, Brown A, Mc Garvey L, Thomson M, et al. “Colonic CD8 and T cell filtration with epithelial damage in children with autism.” J Pediatr 2001;138:366-72.

    Sabra S, Bellanti JA, Colon AR. “Ileal lymphoid hyperplasia, non-specific colitis and pervasive developmental disorder in children”. The Lancet 1998;352:234-5.

    Torrente F., Machado N., Perez-Machado M., Furlano R., Thomson M., Davies S., Wakefield AJ, Walker-Smith JA, Murch SH. “Enteropathy with T cell infiltration and epithelial IgG deposition in autism.” Molecular Psychiatry. 2002;7:375-382.

    Wakefield AJ, Anthony A, Murch SH, Thomson M, Montgomery SM, Davies S, Walker-Smith JA. “Enterocolitis in children with developmental disorder.” American Journal of Gastroenterology 2000;95:2285-2295.

    Ashwood P, Anthony A, Pellicer AA, Torrente F, Wakefield AJ. “Intestinal lymphocyte populations in children with regressive autism: evidence for extensive mucosal immunopathology.” Journal of Clinical Immunology, 2003;23:504-517.

    The following peer-reviewed papers replicate Dr. Wakefield’s original findings:

    Gonzalez, L. et al., “Endoscopic and Histological Characteristics of the Digestive Mucosa in Autistic Children with gastro-Intestinal Symptoms”. Arch Venez Pueric Pediatr, 2005;69:19-25.

    Balzola, F., et al., “Panenteric IBD-like disease in a patient with regressive autism shown for the first time by wireless capsule enteroscopy: Another piece in the jig-saw of the gut-brain syndrome?” American Journal of Gastroenterology, 2005. 100(4): p. 979- 981.

    Balzola F et al . “Autistic enterocolitis: confirmation of a new inflammatory bowel disease in an Italian cohort of patients.” Gastroenterology 2005;128(Suppl. 2);A-303.

    These are the articles on treatment of gastrointestinal symptoms in autistic children:

    Buie T, et al. Pediatrics. 2010 Jan;125 Suppl 1:S19-29. Recommendations for evaluation and treatment of common gastrointestinal problems in children with ASDs.

    Buie T, et al. Pediatrics. 2010 Jan;125 Suppl 1:S1-18. Evaluation, diagnosis, and treatment of gastrointestinal disorders in individuals with ASDs: a consensus report.

  39. #39 Jud
    January 13, 2011

    augustine writes:

    Do you have a citation [for tremendous increase in measles incidence recently in the UK]. The one above does not indicate “tremendous”.

    http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpapers/commons/lib/research/briefings/snsg-2581.pdf

    Regarding HPV vaccine, I understand the theory perfectly well. What you haven’t provided, like with the measles/wakefield charge, is actual evidence. Show me the peer-reviewed paper that shows an ACTUAL decline in cervical cancer because of the vaccine. That’s called EVIDENCE. You should know the difference. Apparently you don’t.

    You may think you understand the theory perfectly well, but in fact you don’t. This is what I mean when I say you either do not or refuse to comprehend causation.

    Since HPV infection is a necessary cause of cervical cancer (no infection, no cancer), one doesn’t need “evidence” (by which I assume you mean statistical data) to show that preventing HPV infection will prevent cervical cancer, any more than one would need statistical studies to show that preventing falls off cliffs prevents serious injury or death, if one knows how gravity works. Once you’ve shown that cervical cancer doesn’t occur in the absence of HPV infection (this was done by research in the late 1990s), go have a beer – you’re done.

    All that’s left to show in that case (yes, by statistical data) is (1) The vaccine is effective in preventing infection, and (2) the vaccine is “safe,” i.e., any side effects are acceptably rare and/or not serious. By law in the U.S. this must be done to the FDA’s satisfaction before the vaccine can be offered to the public, so the studies do exist. But I’m not going to spend time tracking down safety and effectiveness data for the HPV vaccine right now. Maybe some other time if I feel like it. Meanwhile, mull over the nature of causation and how that affects the desirability/appropriateness of statistical studies as a method of proof.

  40. #40 Science Mom
    January 13, 2011

    The following peer-reviewed papers support Dr. Wakefield’s original findings:

    The following peer-reviewed papers replicate Dr. Wakefield’s original findings:

    Do you even understand what ‘support’ and ‘replication’ mean in the context you are using it? None of those do either, but feel free to tell me how they do. Even just one.

  41. #41 Todd W.
    January 13, 2011

    @OQF

    I notice you listed a couple studies by T. Buie. Guess what, he does not support Wakefield’s conclusions:

    Hornig, M., Briese, T., Buie, T., Baumann, M.L., Lauwers, G., Siemetzki, U., et al. (2008). Lack of association between measles virus vaccine and autism with enteropathy: A case control study. Public Library of Science ONE, 3(9), e3140.

    I’ve notified him that you are using his name to try to support Mr. Wakefield.

  42. #42 Militant Agnostic
    January 13, 2011

    Am I safe in assuming that OQF employed the standard anti-vax MO of doing a Medscape search on the vaccination in question and the condition in question (in this case measles vaccine & autism or enteropathy) and then grabbing all the papers containing those keywords without actually determining whether those papers support the anti-vax case, contradict it or are completely irrelevant.

    This leaves 3 possibilities:

    1. The anti-vaxxer is aware that the cited papers do not support their claim and they are lying and hoping no-one checks to see if the papers support the claim.

    2. The anti-vaxxer has read the abstracts and they are just stupid and believes the papers support the claim.

    3. The anti-vaxxer did not examine the papers, but because they are so fanatical that they assume that any paper containing the keywords must support their claim.

    So One Queer Fish – which category are you in?

  43. #43 Todd W.
    January 13, 2011

    @Militant Agnostic

    Looks like OQF just did a copy-paste from AoA nonsense.

  44. #44 Pablo
    January 13, 2011

    “MY SON IS ONE OF THE AUTISM HEARING CHILDREN”

    “I RECEIVED RHOGAM SHOT IN MY FIRST TRIMESTER.”

    Oh, so now there is another cause to blame, I guess.

    However, this post highlights a bizarre problem: what does this have to do with Wakefield?

    As far as I know, Wakefield has never done anything (honestly or not) to examine the relationship between “rhogam” and autism. I don’t know if anyone has, but then again, this is the first time I have ever heard anyone suggest that the relationship exists.

    So the question is, if getting a rhogam shot during pregnancy is what caused the child’s autism, then why in the blazes would anyone care that Wakefield is being taken down? If you believe that rhogam causes autism, then why any need to defend Wakefield, who actually is blaming something else?

    Oh, right. You think that because you perceive Wakefield to be anti-vaccine, that he helps your cause. In fact, no he doesn’t. If Wakefield’s deceit hadn’t caused so many people to waste time searching a non-existent effect, perhaps those resources could have been better served investigating other potential causes?

    I don’t know if rhogam can cause autism (I have my doubts, but that doesn’t matter), but I do know that because of Andy Wakefield, too many people have wasted too much time chasing a clear dead end.

    If I had a hypothesized cause of autism, I would be royally pissed at the guy for wasting everyone’s time, and be anything but a defender.

    Then again, even without my own hypothesis, I do find his actions pretty disgusting.

  45. #45 One Queer Fish
    January 13, 2011

    Great answers Nazarenes, and routes to go down keep me busy a while takes the focus of Messiah Deer while I get my answers but then its not fun ,I prefer annoying you lot on here. ..Todd you’re the fastest with 90 mins to guess that I copied from AOA but you were wrong, it woz Safeminds Thank Deer /God I wasn’t waiting for you to find a defibrillator as you would have come back with a chainsaw 90mins later…keep taking the speed….you need it.

    Simply all I would like is an answer to Mr Stones questions.” He has also had two days to respond to my post in BMJ Rapid Responses and has so far not done so. The longer it goes on the worse it gets”.

    And from me , was Mr Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his “apartment “ which he claimed on lbrb?

    (wont be long until we all start saying thank Deer instead of God?? for you lot on here its happened already…)

  46. #46 Matthew Cline
    January 13, 2011

    @One Queer Fish:

    lbrb medical files in Deers apartment??

    Yeeaaaaaah, you’re gonna have to expand on that a little.

    Simply all I would like is an answer to Mr Stones questions. He has also had two days to respond to my post in BMJ Rapid Responses and has so far not done so.

    So, according to your logic, “Brian Deer ignores John Stone” equals “everything Brian Deer said about Wakefield are lies”.

    Thank Deer /God I wasn’t waiting for you to find a defibrillator as you would have come back with a chainsaw 90mins later

    *tilts head one way*

    *tilts head the other*

    Okay, the “defibrillator” implies that the shock of reading what you quoted gave us heart attacks, or even made our hearts stop, but what do chainsaws have to do with anything?

  47. #47 Chemmomo
    January 13, 2011

    @Pablo: “As far as I know, Wakefield has never done anything (honestly or not) to examine the relationship between “rhogam” and autism. I don’t know if anyone has, but then again, this is the first time I have ever heard anyone suggest that the relationship exists.”

    Yes, it’s been done.
    PMID: 18772000, PMID: 18771966, PMID: 18554566, PMID: 18404135, PMID: 18074377, PMID: 17674242, PMID: 17508426, PMID: 1745456) I was able to download and read some of the papers last year, but I they’re saved on a different computer and off the top of my head I don’t remember which I read.

    Note the title of PMID: 17508426 Lack of association between Rh status, Rh immune globulin in pregnancy and autism.

    Surprise surprise the only ones to find a link are the Geiers (PMID: 18404135, PMID: 17674242, PMID: 1745456)

    Anecdotally, I’ve have lots and lots of Rhogam, including just before my older child was conceived, but neither of my children have autism.

  48. #48 Antaeus Feldspar
    January 13, 2011

    Todd you’re the fastest with 90 mins to guess that I copied from AOA but you were wrong, it woz Safeminds

    Does it matter where you cribbed your list from? No matter where you found the list, you copied it without checking to see if it actually supported your conclusions.

  49. #49 Triskelethecat
    January 13, 2011

    @Antaeus: no, it doesn’t really matter where he cribbed the list from; they all use the same list anyway. It’s been deconstructed more than once, on more than 1 board. It doesn’t matter if the studies support the issue or not. They sound all medical and important, so they must support Wakers since Wakers is the only one who ever studied this issue. Ammirite?

    As to Brian Deer and the “records in his apartment” I would love a link to where he said that, because I don’t recall reading that on LBRB anywhere. Besides, as a Brit, he wouldn’t have said apartment.

  50. #50 Science Mom
    January 13, 2011

    OQF @240

    Still can’t provide any explanation for how that Gish Gallup supports/replicates Wakefield’s ‘work’? Why am I not surprised. Next time, perhaps verify your sources before jumping the gate. Just a little suggestion.

  51. #51 One Queer Fish
    January 13, 2011

    Simple,Messiah Deer (to you lot in Phantasmal Pharma Land) does use the word apartment on lbrb just, Google it and you will see. Messiah Deer bragged that he had the medical notes for months in his “apartment”. Messiah Deer bragging of the medical files in his “apartment” is well documented throughout the web I have a copy and so do many others before it was removed. Quite simply and hardly remarkable, the same scenario happened to the page on Deer’s site with the names,I.D numbers of the Lancet 12 kids, which was removed for years but now can be accessed?? I find the portrayal by you lot on here, of autism, autism parents/ children, pro autism bloggers on here ,anyone who supports autism in anyway at all ,Dr Wakefield et-al of character that bears absolutely no relation whatever to the reality – in fact, diametrically opposite. It is intriguing as to how Messsiah Deer and all you worshipers of Messiah Deer, manage to blank this out of your minds(giving credit you have one which is very questionable). Simply. anyone who met AW would rapidly form the impression within a half-hour, if not just minutes, that he is a good person, who really had the children’s interests at heart and had has nothing to hide.

    Without going into specifics, it’s also interesting as to the impression you’d form after half an hour with Messiah Deer link to a phew

    http://redrockslightbox.blogspot.com/search/label/Dear%20o%20Deer

    Rhogam
    http://www.whale.to/a/rhogam.html

    Science Mom keep holding your breath Ill get Todd to get you the Oxygen bottle should be about 90 minutes..

    P.S. great attempts at diversion

  52. #52 Dedj
    January 13, 2011

    “anyone who met AW would rapidly form the impression within a half-hour, if not just minutes, that he is a good person, who really had the children’s interests at heart and had has nothing to hide.”

    That would make him a perfect conman, if he were to take it up.

    It’s no suprise to find that someone accused of getting away with fraud for a long time may be the sort of person that could have gotten away with fraud for a long time.

  53. #53 dedicated lurker
    January 13, 2011

    Scopie’s Law again! Remember everyone, that site believes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is both real and not about alien lizards, and says dolphins can fly.

    Dedj is making me think of that Doctor Who episode where Romana comments the con man seemed so sincere, and the Doctor points out if he wasn’t, he wouldn’t be so good at his job.

  54. #54 One Queer Fish
    January 13, 2011

    @ Dedj

    “It’s no suprise to find that someone accused of getting away with fraud for a long time may be the sort of person that could have gotten away with fraud for a long time.”

    Is that Messiah Deer you refer to? I seen a post in the BMJ as follows simply explains the fraud Deer is…..

    http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347.full/reply#bmj_el_247450

    Is there a misunderstanding in the media of the conflicting duties of a medico-legal expert?
    Gerry Ferguson, Solicitor
    Withy King, Solicitors, 5/6 Nothumberland Buildings, Bath BA1 2JE
    As a solicitor practising in the field of clinical negligence, acting for claimants, I am amazed at the pejorative terminology used by Brian Deer and endorsed by the BMJ in relation to the investigation of potential clinical negligence claims. I think this attack on the integrity of solicitors acting in this difficult field is one-eyed and sensationalist and has a tabloid flavour that does not sit well with the BMJ’s usual editorial stance.

    To describe claimant solicitors as ‘scheming businesses’ involved in a ‘scam’ is pathetic.

    The way Brian Deer presents the ‘facts’ is that he implies that the solicitors had a pre-conceived idea that they wanted to mount a multi- party action against a pharmaceutical company and went around trawling for clients to fulfil a nefarious and fraudulent plan.

    There was nothing ‘extraordinary’ about the hourly rate paid to the expert, even in 1998.

    I do not know how Brian Deer thinks that solicitors who are acting for more than one client with a common complaint should obtain medical evidence. The parents had not gone to the Royal Free ‘precisely to blame MMR, wanting (an expert) to help their children and their claims’. Like most clients, they had a theory about how their child’s condition had been adversely affected and so they went to an independent expert in an appropriate field seeking an objective assessment to see if there was a link, because they all felt that the changes in their children’s behavioural changes were associated in time with the MMR vaccination.

    As I understand it, Dr Wakefield found some similarities between some of the children’s symptoms and he and others reasonably suggested in the Lancet paper that the possible association required further research. The situation then got completely out of hand due to a media storm and the backlash from the pharmaceutical company’s adherents and the Department of Health, who might reasonably be presumed to be motivated by a threatened loss of profit on the one hand and fear that herd immunity within an approved vaccination programme would be damaged on the other.

    There was never any assertion (that I have seen) that the cases represented ‘a snapshot from a large hospital’s caseload’. It seems some people (possibly unfamiliar with the medical litigation process) may have simply assumed this.

    From a potential litigation perspective it would have been unwise for Dr Wakefield to have alluded in print to the fact that there was a possible court action being contemplated, because of considerations of legal professional privilege and his instructing solicitors’ natural caution in not wishing to ‘jump the gun’ by disclosing preliminary expert evidence (that had not been finalised for disclosure) in the public domain, thereby handing a tactical advantage to potential defendants in what is (whether you agree with it or not) an adversarial, not inquisitorial, court process.

    Again, as I understand it, Dr Wakefield was quite genuinely concerned by his findings and thought they should be urgently flagged up for wider investigation. I cannot see that this stance was anything more than the natural reaction of any concerned clinician who thought there might be a link.

    Because his medico-legal reports were privileged, any published data in The Lancet would of necessity have to be ‘reviewed and changed’ to avoid any breaches of the clinician’s duty of confidentiality to the instructing solicitors, child clients and their litigation friends. There is nothing sinister in such a process, simply because someone writing with an agenda terms it ‘misreporting’.

    You have to bear in mind the GMC tribunal themselves were by no means disinterested parties and, to my mind as a claimant lawyer, I find Mr Deer’s assault on the evidence gathering process in litigation ill- informed. I suspect Dr Wakefield was ‘caught between a rock and a hard place’. If he kept quiet about the possible link until the end of any possible multi-party litigation years later then, if there was a link, hundreds or even thousands of children might be unnecessarily harmed and he would then be blamed by everyone, no doubt including the media, for keeping his theory of the possible association to himself.

    If he openly set out in detail the identities of the patients and the circumstances of his instruction there was a serious risk he would, at a stroke, destroy the viability of any possible multi-party action, because the potential defendants would inevitably be alerted to the thrust of the investigation and significantly greater resources than those available to a ‘Norfolk high street solicitor’ would be marshalled by the medical establishment and the pharmaceutical multi-national concerned.

    The casual way in which some medical academic papers are co-authored is an argument for another day.

    It is human nature to seek to distance oneself from an embarrassing error and the co-authors of the paper no doubt wished that they had been more sceptical of the original paper’s premise, but they only recanted under immense pressure from the medical establishment, government and media. How many professionals could seriously assert that they would stand up to such overwhelming public pressure?

    To suggest that if a solicitor’s firm sends a series of clients to an expert’s hospital in a short timescale there is ‘something fishy’ is unworthy of a mature journalist. For reasons of economies of scale and limited funding it makes sense to try and get the expert to see such clients in a block. The exigencies of limited litigation public funding dictate that solicitors obviously try and carry out their investigations cost-effectively.

    It really seems to me that (despite all the vicious attacks on Dr Wakefield’s ethics) all that happened here was that ‘a man with a hammer’ assumed that every child with a bowel lesion, developmental disorder and a recent history of MMR vaccination was possibly ‘a nail’.

    He may have been naive, but the way in which he has been hounded by the media and pilloried by the GMC has simply added another layer of injustice to an already difficult area of law.

    I am afraid the way in which Dr Wakefield and his colleagues have been treated might as well have been deliberately designed to discourage clinicians with medico-legal practices from advising potential claimants, for fear of professional ruin. Added to the Government’s assault on Legal Aid by seeking to abolish public funding for clinical negligence investigations and claims and the Jackson proposals undermining the financial viability of conditional fee agreements, this sorry episode could be seen as part of a wider long term agenda to render certain professional and corporate vested interests inviolate.

    The implication is that in the long term the medical establishment and the Government wish to make it impossible for any potential multi- party drug damage claim ( or indeed any claim against NHS or private hospitals or general practitioners ) to ever receive public funding or be able to be pursued with a conditional fee agreement.

    Is that what everyone really wants? A situation where no pharmaceutical company or health provider can ever be challeged, when recent history shows that the executives of some multi-national companies have been engaging in far more reprehensible conduct than the accusations levelled at Dr Wakefield.

    I have no connection with Dr Wakefield or the solicitors involved in the MMR investigation, but the media rush to judgment of solicitors’ and claimant experts’ ethics in these cases is redolent of the Salem witch trials and deeply concerning to me as a solicitor with 30 years of experience of trying to bring claims for claimants in an environment where the dice have always been heavily loaded against injured patients and their families.

    Regards

    Gerry Ferguson T 01225 425731 Ext 1021 Partner DD 01225 352860 Clinical Negligence M 07831 718728 Withy King, Solicitors 5/6 Northumberland Buildings Bath BA1 2JE

    Competing interests: Solicitor acting for claimants in clinical negligence cases

  55. #55 Sauceress
    January 13, 2011

    Simply. anyone who met AW would rapidly form the impression within a half-hour, if not just minutes, that he is a good person, who really had the children’s interests at heart and had has nothing to hide.

    ROFL
    Spoken like a Wakefield Cult True Believer(TM)!

    Question for you queer fish:
    If Brian Deer was ever so wrong concerning Wakefield’s dishonesty and fraudulent claims, why did Wakefield not only abandon, but then also try to quash the libel proceedings he initiated against Deer and Deer’s claims?

    Following the Dispatches programme, Wakefield launched a meritless libel action, funded by the Medical Protection Society, against Channel 4 and Brian Deer. In a move criticised by a High Court judge, Wakefield then tried, but failed, to have the proceedings frozen. Two years later, following the disclosure of substantial payments to Wakefield, he dropped his claim, and paid Deer compensation

    And this…

    Following Brian Deer’s Dispatches investigation of November 2004, reporting facts about Andrew Wakefield and his campaign against the MMR vaccine, which a judge described as “of considerable public interest and concern” that “went to the heart” of the British former surgeon’s “honesty and professional integrity”, Wakefield initiated libel proceedings. Two years later, after the disclosure of a mass of documents, including medical records, he dropped his claim, and agreed to pay the defendants’ costs

    Please explain.

  56. #56 One Queer Fish
    January 13, 2011

    Quite simply, as this case proceeded and the start date for the prosecution by the GMC began to get closer, the defendants in the libel action demanded disclosure of all defence material in the GMC case and the judge instructed that they had to comply or forfeit their case. Dr Wakefield was forced to withdraw from the case simple,logical enough yes?.

    Simply can someone get, Brian Lawrence, A.K.A. Messiah Brian Liar Deer to answer simple questions that are being asked of him here and on the BMJ.

  57. #57 One Queer Fish
    January 13, 2011

    Quite simply, as this case proceeded and the start date for the prosecution by the GMC began to get closer, the defendants in the libel action demanded disclosure of all defence material in the GMC case and the judge instructed that they had to comply or forfeit their case. Dr Wakefield was forced to withdraw from the case simple,logical enough yes?.

    Simply can someone get, Brian Lawrence, A.K.A. Messiah Brian Liar Deer to answer simple questions that are being asked of him here and on the BMJ.

  58. #58 AnthonyK
    January 13, 2011

    Oh Deer, oh Deer, Mr Queer-Fish, someone’s really got to you, haven’t they? So a journalist, working for years, has managed to force most of Mr Wakefield’s collaborators to take their names off his paper, then to con the Lancet into withdrawing it, then to get his licence to practise medicine revoked, and finally to have the details of his money-making scam and fraud published in the BMJ?
    He must be very influential. D’you reckon Big Pharma has anything to do with it?
    But little wonder you’re upset. What a terrible miscarriage of justice, set up by just one lone maverick with an axe to grind!
    Well, good on you for bravely setting the record straight here, in this pharma-shill(TM) haven. And thank you too for providing links to a silly picture of Satan Brian and Saint Andrew, and a welcome slice of truth from whale.to, not to mention a letter from a solicitor specialising in medical negligence claims.
    I can’t speak for the other commentators here, but I feel your pain.
    And all of it done, if I may say so, in exquisite English, in a measured tone and manner far removed from the shrill hyperbole adopted by so many on this site.
    You, Sir, are a credit to gay pisceans everywhere.
    Bravo!

  59. #59 Sauceress
    January 13, 2011

    the defendants in the libel action demanded disclosure of all defence material in the GMC case and the judge instructed that they had to comply or forfeit their case. Dr Wakefield was forced to withdraw from the case simple,logical enough yes?.

    I don’t see the logic. Assuming Wakefield’s claims were all above board, I still don’t see the problem? It’s possible I’m missing something here?

  60. #60 Sauceress
    January 13, 2011

    Oh Deer, oh Deer, Mr Queer-Fish, someone’s really got to you, haven’t they?

    It’s probably those damn Lizards again!

  61. #61 Science Mom
    January 13, 2011

    Science Mom keep holding your breath Ill get Todd to get you the Oxygen bottle should be about 90 minutes..

    P.S. great attempts at diversion

    It is hardly a distraction to ask for explanation for how any of the studies that YOU posted are support or replication of Wanker’s work. Then again, anyone who would link to whale.to is a bit comprehension deficient.

    As to your posts #251 and duplicate #252, yawn. Anti-vax, St. Andy supporter party line you regurgitated there.

  62. #62 Denice Walter
    January 13, 2011

    ( OT, but *just* possibly, in light of recent events, a bell wether indicating the future of the anti-vax movement):
    A newspaper article dangled before me : “2011 People to Watch: Environmental activist has new ‘green’ goals”- Deirde Imus**, president of the Environmental Health Center @ HUMC, is developing a non-toxic shampoo that will “delouse kids without directly exposing them to pesticides” (?); two other studies at the center have investigated “enviromental exposures” in the homes of children with autism and the assessing the diets of children with cancer for evidence of vitamin deficiencies.
    by Lindy Washburn, the Record, 1/13/11.
    ** Is it a sign of the times that the anti-vax, “green the clean” Imus is now interested in ( gasp!) *head lice*? Unfortunately, she does her “work” virtually in my own backyard.

  63. #63 Calli Arcale
    January 13, 2011

    dedicated lurker @ 248:

    Dedj is making me think of that Doctor Who episode where Romana comments the con man seemed so sincere, and the Doctor points out if he wasn’t, he wouldn’t be so good at his job.

    “The Ribos Operation”; it concerned an attempt by two con artists to sell a planet that they did not actually own by persuading the mark that it had some highly valuable minerals, which they’d actually planted.

    “But he had such an open, honest face!”
    “Romana, you can hardly be a decent crook with a dishonest face, can you?”

  64. #64 dedicated lurker
    January 13, 2011

    I should have known that off the top of my head, Calli, beause I own the novel of that one.

  65. #65 LW
    January 13, 2011

    Gerry Ferguson’s lengthy argument, quoted above, that Wakefield *had to* publish (for the sake of the children, you know), but also *had to* lie about his conflicts of interest and about the actual conditions of the children in question to protect his clients’ interests in the upcoming lawsuit sounds superficially plausible except …. there was that press conference at which he gave the whole game away. The evil minions of Big Pharma must have listened to that and known instantly that they’d be facing a deluge of lawsuits based on it. It wasn’t really necessary for them to know that he personally would be involved in some of those suits. 

  66. #66 Militant Agnostic
    January 13, 2011

    Interesting that Gerry Ferguson seems to have no problems whatsoever with Wakefield fabricating data. I hope that his British colleagues who work in criminal defense do not have such a blase attitude to fabricated evidence.

  67. #67 One Quer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    253 .Quite simply Yes to most of your suggestions ,apart from Deer never set anything up Deer is just a puppet who is being spoon fed personal data,e-mails which nobody else on the planet has privilege to(his own admission) .Simply when the dark powers can see a way of thrusting contrived allegations in a half legal way they suggest it to Deer this what you do,A,B,and C …hey Presto Deer appears like a kid joyously opening a present with all his allegedly great detective Journalism (at the same time everyone, Ben Goldache ,The Times,etc are distancing themselves from him shh! Messiah Deer cant see that) Quite simply Oprah Winfrey , should take a leaf from Messiah Deer’s book of how to get people to speak to you and use Messiah Deer cunning, Oprah should ,turn up on the door step of a Lancet 12 parent call herself Brian Lawrence and she might get an interview, it worked for Messiah Deer why not Oprah …detective journalism … my sides split with laughing when I think of him calling himself a journalist never mind a detective ..Pinocchio would be more apt , only with Messiah Deer it’s the head that gets bigger..

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    254.

    Simply, Worshipper of Deer take up cards it’s the same logic..

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    255.

    Lizards ? simply you stick to Doctor Who, Lizards are more scary..they are more fact than Dr Who..

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    256.

    Very simply ,Quid pro quo…fair enough yes? Did Todd bring you the oxygen …chainsaw no? keep holding your breath..

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    257.

    Very simple this one,Don’t worry about the lice damaging your head and brain Messiah Deer has done that by the looks Offit…

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    258.

    Oh Deer your on the wrong blog Google Dr Who …

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    259.

    Simply, your also on the wrong blog Google Dr Who funny you should arrive on here …

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    260.

    Simply you need to be specific about what your talking about here dates etc .Dr Wakefield did many an interview prior to him withdrawing his libel for the sake of the up and coming case quite simply its all been answered before..

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    261.

    Very simple ,your charges, are based on the fabricated lies of one sole person on the whole planet , Messiah Deer spoon fed , strings pulled by his pharma paymaster Generals et-al
    Why not investigate Deer’s connections to Pharma, who pays, Deer, the GMC , the BMJ ..give you a clue it ain`t Oprah Winfrey.

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

  68. #68 Todd W.
    January 14, 2011

    Looks like OQF is coming a bit unhinged. The fish’s grammar is all over the place, and they seem to have developed a fixation for the word “simply”.

    Apologies for the delay, O Great Aquatic One. I was busy saving people. Now, did you actually read any of those studies you posted? It would behoove you to actually have some minor grasp of what you post in support of your arguments; it would save you the embarrassment of posting things which are unrelated or contradict your claims.

    As to Deer, I personally think the guy’s a bit of a self-centered egotist. That doesn’t detract from the investigative work that he’s done, though.

  69. #69 LW
    January 14, 2011

    Years ago, when I worked in a law office, I used to do a certain amount of investigation on our cases. In one particular case, I located some documents that proved that our opponent was lying through her teeth. The case came to trial, she was on the stand, and my boss presented her with one of those documents and asked her to explain it. She replied, in horrified tones, “Where did you get this?” He repeated the question and she asked again, “Where did you get this?” He repeated the question and she turned to the judge and demanded, “Where did he get this?” The judge replied, “It doesn’t matter where he got it. Answer the question.” You can guess that we won that case.

    One Quer[sic] Fish reminds me strongly of that opponent, and my answer to it is similar to the judge’s answer. Brian Deer has proven Wakefield to be a fraud and if One Quer Fish wants to defend Wakefield, it’s going to come up with a better defense than just questioning where Deer got the documents to prove it.

  70. #70 Scott
    January 14, 2011

    Can OQF be arrested for aggravated assault upon the English language?

    Seriously, I’d expect something more coherent and understandable from a ten-year-old…

  71. #71 Joseph
    January 14, 2011

    @QF: Here’s a clue for you. Obtaining confidential documents of public interest is what journalists do — good journalists anyway. They know how to work their sources.

  72. #72 LW
    January 14, 2011

    Yes, if I were going to repeat the same paragraph seven times, I would definitely proofread it at least once.

    Note to One Quer Fish: double quotation marks, such as the one between “his” and “apartment” in your repeated paragraph, come in pairs, and the first of the pair is immediately to the *left* of the first quoted word.

  73. #73 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    263,264,265,266,267

    No faults with the subject matter good then.Heres another bit of slap up phie from Messiah Deers Phie shop enjoy!!

    http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2011/01/14/is-brian-deer-a-brick-short-of-a-load-as-the-british-say/

    Brian Deer “A Brick Short of A Load” [As The British Say]
    Posted on January 14, 2011 by childhealthsafety
    EDITORIAL
    With the British media pretty much wholesale ignoring Brian Deer’s “revelations” in the British Medical Journal, freelance journalist Brian Deer spent time casting around on 11th January for UK media outlets to give him coverage. Eventually The Guardian newspaper gave him a blog column. It is not being widely read but the result is extraordinary: “The medical establishment shielded Andrew Wakefield from fraud claims” Brian Deer, Guardian Blog
    On the blog Deer attacks the entire medical profession for protecting Andrew Wakefield. About The Lancet and British Medical Journal Deer says:
    One of the most insidious cartels at the heart of British science is being torn apart: the two top journals in medical science.”
    As Deer has just been published in the BMJ, that is an interesting perspective – ‘”biting” “hand” and “feeds” come to mind.
    Deer also singles out the chief public critics of Andrew Wakefield: Dr Paul Offit, Dr Ben Goldacre [author of The Guardian BadScience column] and Dr Michael Fitzpatrick [SpikedOnline columnist and author of a book defending MMR vaccine]. The Guardian newspaper is closely associated with The British Medical journal. The two organisations collaborate on publications and Guardian journalists are often seen reporting in the BMJ.
    To assess public reaction see comments on the blog. We set out a selection below.
    And here is Brian Deer on January 11th complaining he cannot get airtime on BBC radio because no journalist will appear with him. No prizes for guessing why:
    Brian Deer – January 11th, 2011 – 17:54
    Hey Kev,
    It’s times like this I wished I Twittered. BBC Radio 4’s Media Show just called me and said they were having to cancel a discussion of MMR because they couldn’t find any journalist to speak against me.
    That’s journalists not willing to appear on the Media Show.”
    PUBLIC COMMENTS ON BRIAN DEER’S GUARDIAN BLOG
    See the comments here: | Show all comments
    And here is our selection:-
    It makes one seriously wonder about the accuracy of anything else Brian Deer has to say or write. Helkie – 13 January 2011 2:50AM
    Deer has completely lost it this time. If I had to name the three most vocal and ardent vaccine-damage deniers I could think of, it would be P.R.Offit, Goldacre and Fitzpatrick, yet here he is castigating them for going soft. He obviously wants all the credit for this ghastly smear for himself, and I’ve never seen a supposed news item with such a high proportion of “I”s, “me”s and “my”s in it. arbitraryNickname – 13 January 2011 12:46PM
    I, I, I, me, me, me…it’s a shame the investigation was left to this self-aggrandizing oaf. Check out his “expose” of Bactrim sometime. – MG75 – 12 January 2011 5:29PM
    “Because 13 years passed before I slayed the MMR monster“
    Your investigative journalism may be very good, but the self congratulation is too much to read over and over and over and over again……….” wolfmanjack – 13 January 2011 10:37AM
    ‘Dr Michael Fitzpatrick – another author who has defended MMR – denounced the GMC’s inquiries as a “witchhunt”. ‘ Giving that alone is a striking misrepresentation of Dr Fitzpatrick’s stance towards Dr. Wakefield and Autism research in general.It`s ironic to see such selective misrepresentative quotes from the likes of Goldacre and Fitzpatrick used in an article about an invesigation that exposed selective and misrepresentative selection of patients by Dr Wakefield. LogicLover – 13 January 2011 2:14AM
    I dont understand Deer, all the doctors quoted spoke of their developing knowledge, none were favourable to Wakefield. Deer may have wanted supportive condemning vitriol from the first day of his investigation but how can you expect that?
    Why investigate if the evidence was so obvious?
    For that matter even if there may be a case for wakefield committing fraud that hasn’t been proved yet either.
    I think Deer has to put in a bit more spade work than this if he is to prove he has found “One of the most insidious cartels at the heart of British science” SteveNayeeve – 13 January 2011 9:17AM

    Having read Brian Deer’s BMJ article, with its profoundly shocking implications, I am mystified about the dearth of media comment: (eg : nothing whatever in the Google news “health” subsection).
    To quote from Ben Goldacre’s blog, above:
    “there has been almost total media silence in the UK on his current revelations”
    WHY is there this media silence? (replies from cranks and conspiracy theorists not solicited) victoria30 13 January 2011 2:02PM

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

  74. #74 Triskelethecat
    January 14, 2011

    @OQF: I can play that game, too. And, I have tried searching LBRB, and used google, but cannot find ANY documentation that Brian Deer had medical records in his apartment (except in accusations on AOA, GR, and other nut sites). So, a link would be appreciated to a time when he said that. (request #2…I’ll number them so you don’t lose count as to how many times I’ve asked for a link to LBRB).

  75. #75 Scott
    January 14, 2011

    No faults with the subject matter good then.

    No, we’re just not bothering to READ what you laughingly call the “subject matter” because it’s so incoherent. Not worth my time to try and figure out what in the world you think you’re saying.

  76. #76 Matthew Cline
    January 14, 2011

    @LW:

    She replied, in horrified tones, “Where did you get this?”

    Veering off-topic: I thought that discovery was supposed to prevent one side from pulling surprises like that one the other during the trial.

  77. #77 Jud
    January 14, 2011

    @271:

    You’re generally right, though I can think of particular exceptions (e.g., used on cross-examination when the direct examination explored areas not covered in discovery, and it was not objected to or was allowed in over objection).

    But in any case, fun story, so hey let it go, right?

  78. #78 LW
    January 14, 2011

    Yes, discovery would have prevented this ambush if the opposing lawyer had engaged in any discovery. Which he didn’t. Even after my boss met with him personally, told him we would prove his client a liar, and *gave him* some of the documents we already had. I cannot account for the behavior of lawyers.

    Yes, we should not have been able to ambush her, but we did.

  79. #79 Calli Arcale
    January 14, 2011

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    None of us here is Brian Deer’s master.

    In general, I find it the mark of a failing argument when someone resorts to implying that if a person not active in the current conversation doesn’t respond to a question, some sort of victory has been achieved. Harping on the point excessively only makes you look bad, OQF, and highlights your lack of response to the actual fact that Wakefield has been proven to have committed fraud.

  80. #80 Jud
    January 14, 2011

    Yes, discovery would have prevented this ambush if the opposing lawyer had engaged in any discovery. Which he didn’t. Even after my boss met with him personally, told him we would prove his client a liar, and *gave him* some of the documents we already had. I cannot account for the behavior of lawyers.

    Oh, that one might be very easy. Think “client is arrogant enough to think there isn’t a problem, doesn’t want to ‘throw away’ money on discovery.”

  81. #81 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    269.

    Simply as I stated in a previous post Messiah Deers post was removed not before copies were made .As stated before the same happened when he had the Lancet 12`s children on his web site for a couple of years with NHS numbers ,names etc and again it disappeared (we think Deer was reported to the Police children’s unit for exposing full details of severly disabled minors/most vulnerable members of, society on the web the Police ordered him to remove the page which he hadn’t for 2 years despite pleadings from the Lancet 12 parents)You wont find Messiah Deers lbrb post on the web unless lbrb put the post back up. No doubt Kev will be keeping that posting of Messiah Deers, as a kind of insurance against Messiah Deer just incase Messiah Deer try’s to drop Kev in the Shit, when the shit hits the fan for Deer.If your looking for a copy of the posting from me hold your breath I might give you a look.

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    270.

    Have you tried bi focals…

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    271.

    The GMC kangaroo sham which wasn’t a trial…never mind a fair hearing ..Saddam was more democratic..

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    272.

    Your shout…

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    273.

    Interesting..

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    274.

    Simply nobody understands what the fraud is its not clear .So far Messiah Deers accusations of fraud match up to normal hospital/GP/specialists notes Lets put it this way the great apes of Africa would understand this,If all the medical notes from 3 different sources had been word perfect the EXACT same in every detail,that would be fraud showing colousion..simple.Now explain the fraud?.

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    275.
    The dreamers have to get real one day pharma guy..

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

  82. #82 ChildHealthSafety
    January 14, 2011

    Re: Brian Deer – January 10, 2011 2:36 PM

    Regarding Mr Deer’s statement which says:-

    “To clarify a point I have clarified many times. I read the children’s hospital records, under legal supervision, as the result of an order against Andrew Wakefield issued by a High Court judge.”

    Unfortunately, Mr Deer’s statement misses out the crucial family doctor [GP] National Health Service records. These were not provided to the Royal Free Hospital, were not part of the hospital records and are the key documents upon which all his allegations are based.

    Could Mr Deer please clarify his statement?

  83. #83 Matthew Cline
    January 14, 2011

    @One Queer Fish:

    If all the medical notes from 3 different sources had been word perfect the EXACT same in every detail,that would be fraud showing colousion.

    Well, if they were all hand written, rather than photo copies, carbon copies, or electronic, maybe. But Deer isn’t talking about differences in wording, spelling, punctuation, and so forth, but substantive differences.

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to …

    None of us control Deer, so you asking this over and over is futile, not to mention annoying.

  84. #84 Jud
    January 14, 2011

    @278 – Don’t know as I’d bother (though of course you’re free to disagree). The near total lack of coherence, sheer volume and length, and constant repetition make me think of someone in the “manic” phase of bipolar disorder. (No, I’m not trying to be insulting or to make jokes, I’m quite serious.)

  85. #85 Militant Agnostic
    January 14, 2011

    None of us control Deer, so you asking this over and over is futile, not to mention annoying.

    And thanks to the tinfoil hat that I am wearing, Brian Deer is unable to control me.

    All-One or None! EXCEPTIONS? ABSOLUTE NONE!

  86. #86 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    Since Ive run you all down and your all jaded,lets change ..phantastic

    http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2011/01/14/breaking-news-statement-from-dr-andrew-wakefield-no-fraud-no-hoax-no-profit-motive/

    BREAKING NEWS: Statement From Dr. Andrew Wakefield: No Fraud. No Hoax. No Profit Motive.
    Posted on January 14, 2011 by childhealthsafety
    AUSTIN, Texas, Jan. 13, 2011 /PRNewswire/ — Dr. Andrew Wakefield issued the following statement today on the recent British Medical Journal articles:
    “The British Medical Journal and reporter Brian Deer recently alleged that my 1998 research paper was ‘a hoax’ and ‘an elaborate fraud’ and that my motivation was profit.
    “I want to make one thing crystal clear for the record – my research and the serious medical problems found in those children were not a hoax and there was no fraud whatsoever. Nor did I seek to profit from our findings.
    “I stand by the Lancet paper’s methodology and the results which call for more research into whether environmental triggers cause gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression in children. In fact, despite media reports to the contrary, the results of my research have been duplicated in five other countries (to see citations to studies, visit http://tinyurl.com/4hrdt5y.)
    “It is not unexpected to see poor reporting and misinformation coming from Brian Deer, the lead reporter of the recent BMJ coverage. But to see coverage in other media that cites Deer’s shoddy journalism in the BMJ as a final justification to claim there is no link between vaccines and autism is ludicrous. The MMR is only one vaccine of the eleven vaccinations on the pediatric schedule that has been studied for causing developmental problems such as autism. That is fact, not opinion. Any medical professional, government official or journalist who states that the case is closed on whether vaccines cause autism is jumping to conclusions without the research to back it up.
    “I continue to fully support more independent research to determine if environmental triggers, including vaccines, are causing autism and other developmental problems. The current rate of autism is 1 in 110 children in the United States and 1 in 64 children in the U.K. My goal has always been and will remain the health and safety of children. Since the Lancet paper, I have lost my job, my career and my country. To claim that my motivation was profit is patently untrue. I will not be deterred – this issue is far too important.”

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

  87. #87 Sauceress
    January 14, 2011

    So is Saint Andy launching another libel suit against Brian Deer?

  88. #88 Todd W.
    January 14, 2011

    You know what I love about that statement from Wakefield defending himself? This (emphasis added):

    I have lost my job, my career and my country.

    Now, maybe I just haven’t seen it anywhere, but as far as I know, Wakefield has not lost his citizenship in the U.K. He has not been forcibly expelled. No, he chose to leave and emigrate to the U.S., setting up shop at Thoughtful House. He could have stayed in the U.K., but chose not to. Yet another lie, and one that he’s told before.

    As for his job and his career, well, he did that to himself.

  89. #89 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    283.
    I think his appeal comes first logical?

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

  90. #90 Todd W.
    January 14, 2011

    @OQF

    I think his appeal comes first logical?

    In order to appeal, you need to have actually completed the case first. Wakefield dropped his libel suit against Deer before any judgment could be rendered. No judgment, no appeal. Now, if Deer’s newest article is libelous, then what’s stopping Wakefield from suing?

  91. #91 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    284

    Simply,public pressure drove him out the Health Minister et-al.Are you seriously going to stay in a country with a pack of paid Pharma worshippers at your door every morning…The point you miss is that Deers lies are larfable..

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

  92. #92 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    286.

    Appeal- GMC!! duh!!

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

  93. #93 Todd W.
    January 14, 2011

    @OQF

    public pressure drove him out

    And yet, he had (still has) quite a number of supporters there. Not to mention, it’s a decent-sized country. And I’m sure they have anti-harassment laws to deal with “Pharma worshippers [sic] at [his] door every morning”. You do have evidence that such was the case, yes?

    P.S. Please stop beating up grammar. It’s your friend.

  94. #94 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    289.

    Use your brain cell or who has it on the Science Blog today,whose turn is it to keep it warm?

    And yet, he had (still has) quite a number of supporters there. Not to mention, it’s a decent-sized country. And I’m sure they have anti-harassment laws to deal with “Pharma worshippers [sic] at [his] door every morning”. You do have evidence that such was the case, yes?

    P.S. Please stop beating up grammar. It’s your friend.

  95. #95 Travis
    January 14, 2011

    @OQF
    As Todd points out, an appeal is not the next logical step as Wakefield dropped the suit. I think the lesson you should take from this latest erroneous statement is that you do not know as much as you think you do.

    Actually, looking back at this thread I see you were already notified that Wakefield abandoned this and you replied to that post. So you should know better. Are you just very forgetful or is this “ignorance” intentional?

  96. #96 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    Simply the GMC appeal comes first if I mis-lead shit happens

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

  97. #97 Travis
    January 14, 2011

    Of course, his GMC ruling! If only you had actually mentioned that and put some context to your statements. Of course your post did not mention this and was replying to a post referring to a libel suit. But who wants to be clear about these things?

  98. #98 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    293.
    Ooopps?your a star..never meant to mislead ..

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

  99. #99 Militant Agnostic
    January 14, 2011

    All-One our Queer Fish, self-discipline the key to love, uniting All-One above! Above! So, when your fellow man you measure, take him at his best, with that lever, lift him higher, overlook the rest! For we’re All-One or none! As teach for 6000 years Messiah Deer “LISTEN CHILDREN ETERNAL PHARMA ETERNALLY ONE”

  100. #100 Sauceress
    January 14, 2011

    Surely a successful libel suite against Brian Deer could only help his GMC appeal? Has Wakefield actually launched a GMC appeal?

  101. #101 Travis
    January 14, 2011

    Ask him yourself. Maybe send him an e-mail. It is not as though we have any more influence him than you do. I am not sure why you persist in thinking that people here have a connection to him allowing us to compel him to do so.

  102. #102 DT35
    January 14, 2011

    Has Wakefield actually filed an appeal from the GMC decision? Usually that must be done within a few weeks, or at most 2-3 months after the ruling, and he was struck off last spring, I believe. As he didn’t actually present a defense, what would be the legal or factual basis for such an appeal? “I don’t agree with your decision” is not sufficient.

  103. #103 Matthew Cline
    January 14, 2011

    @Travis:

    I am not sure why you persist in thinking that people here have a connection to him allowing us to compel him to do so.

    I guess it’s a rhetorical device meant to constantly remind us that Deer hasn’t answered some of John Stone’s questions, with the implication that Deer ignoring Stone means that everything Deer has said are lies. When the only tool you have is a hammer…

  104. #104 Militant Agnostic
    January 14, 2011

    Surely a successful libel suite against Brian Deer could only help his GMC appeal? Has Wakefield actually launched a GMC appeal?

    Methinks Mr. Wakefield would want to steer clear of venues where lying (under oath) has (criminal) legal repercussions and his audience is unlikely to be impressed by his self-confidence and charm.

    I am not sure why you persist in thinking that people here have a connection to him allowing us to compel him to do so.

    I believe the term for such thinking is “delusional”.

  105. #105 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    295.
    Very touching that thanks..

    296.
    No ,look up Judge Eady big disadvantage to go to libel just now ,not that Messiah Deer knows that shhh..

    297.

    Ill do that..

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

  106. #106 Todd W.
    January 14, 2011

    @DT35

    Has Wakefield actually filed an appeal from the GMC decision?

    Oh, well, not with the GMC. No, his defense was a document titled Callous Disregard in which he presented evidence that exonerated him. Now, he could have presented this evidence during the GMC hearings, but that might have impacted his book sales. Clearly.

  107. #107 Sauceress
    January 14, 2011

    As he didn’t actually present a defense, what would be the legal or factual basis for such an appeal?

    Indeed. I haven’t heard any more about an appeal other than Wakefield declaring,just after the GMC findings,that he intended one.

    I also notice he (Wakefield) has made no mention of intention toward a libel suite against Brian Deer in regard to Deer’s latest revelations.

    Brian Deer offers him encouragement

    Deer responded to Wakefield’s charge that he was a “hit man” by challenging Wakefield to sue him for libel:
    If it is true that Andrew Wakefield is not guilty as charged, he has the remedy of bringing a libel action against myself, the Sunday Times of London, against the medical journal here, and he would be the richest man in America.

  108. #108 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    298.
    Simply nobody knows as you can see below from the GMC guide lines its confidential..

    Appeal
    28 A doctor has 28 days in which to appeal to the
    High Court or Court of Session about any decision
    by the Fitness to Practise Panel. The panel’s decision
    will not take effect until either the appeal period
    expires or the appeal is determined. However, the
    panel can impose an immediate order of suspension
    or conditions if it believes this is needed to protect
    the public or is in the best interests of the doctor.

    300.

    Simply as these questions remain un answered the longer they remain unanswered the worse it gets.

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

  109. #109 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    302 ,303

    Just answered its confidential one(as in Royal) wouldnt know ..

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in his” apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is ranting about, please thanks.

  110. #110 Todd W.
    January 14, 2011

    @Sauceress

    What’s even more amusing is that Wakefield actually asked for the GMC to get involved:

    He welcomed the GMC investigation. “I not only welcome this, I insist on it,” he said.

  111. #111 Militant Agnostic
    January 14, 2011

    Surely a successful libel suite against Brian Deer could only help his GMC appeal? Has Wakefield actually launched a GMC appeal?

    Methinks Mr. Wakefield would want to steer clear of venues where lying (under oath) has (criminal) legal repercussions and his audience is unlikely to be impressed by his self-confidence and charm.

    I am not sure why you persist in thinking that people here have a connection to him allowing us to compel him to do so.

    I believe the term for such thinking is “delusional”.

  112. #112 Orac
    January 14, 2011

    P.S. Can you get Messiah Deer to answer the questions on here and on
    the BMJ, was Messiah Deer supervised when he had the medical notes in
    his? apartment and be a bit more clearer about the Wakefield Fraud as
    nobody with a clear mind can see what the Fraud is that Messiah Deer is
    ranting about, please thanks.

    OK, as my regular readers know, I’m incredibly tolerant of nearly viewpoints on this blog, to the point of letting people who despise me or who have what I consider to be despicable views say almost anything they want. That’s freedom of speech, which I value highly, even when the speech is reprensible. However, one thing I do not tolerate is repetition to the point of near spamming. That’s what you’ve been doing by repeating this over and over and over and over–at least 25 times in this thread alone.

    Knock it off or you’re outta here. You can express damned near any opinion you want, but the repetition of this same paragraph over and over again just wastes bandwidth, annoys me, and accomplishes nothing other than revealing you to be an utter tosser.

  113. #113 Sauceress
    January 14, 2011

    look up Judge Eady big disadvantage to go to libel just now

    Oh you mean where Wakefield tried to bluff Deer with a sham libel suite, tried to pull out of the game when he saw what Deer had in his hand, Judge Eady refused to allow Wakefield to drop the suite, Wakefield lost and had to pay Brian Deer?
    That one?

    from the GMC guide lines its confidential

    Nobody knows whether or not Wakefield has launched an appeal because that info is confidential? Reference?

  114. #114 Matthew Cline
    January 14, 2011

    @Orac:

    However, one thing I do not tolerate is repetition to the point of near spamming.

    Awww, c’mon, Orac, repetition is a powerful rhetorical tool which…

    Okay, yeah, I agree with you here.

  115. #115 Brian Deer
    January 14, 2011

    With regard to Wakefield’s purported appeal, I’m afraid it’s the same old story. He has filed a document, but has done so “in person” (meaning without representation) because, on advice from his GMC defence legal team, the Medical Protection Society has declined to fund an appeal.

    I guess they figure they’ve thrown enough of their members’ money down the toilet.

    So, he has a document filed, so he can say he is appealing, but he doesn’t actually do anything to progress it – as he tried to do with his libel action, and which he did with a complaint two years ago to the Press Complaints Commission.

    I’m not sure what the GMC does in this situation.

  116. #116 Passing Through
    January 14, 2011

    Orac, if you want to see something that will really blow your mind, go look at Jenny McCarthy’s Huffer Puffer piece right now. The comment still should be near the top of the first page.

    Who’da thunk….

  117. #117 Sauceress
    January 14, 2011

    So, he has a document filed, so he can say he is appealing

    Thanks Brian. So his *appeal* is just something to feed his cult followers and keep up appearances…and keep those appearance fees coming in.
    I was betting it would probably be something like that.

  118. #118 Sauceress
    January 14, 2011

    I’m not sure what the GMC does in this situation.

    Perhaps they should take a leaf out of Judge Eady’s book.

  119. #119 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    Ocac, I never thought this was a democratic site anyway..

    Had to go and get a bite to eat so sorry I missed Messiah Deer and his words of wisdom as he condescended to post on the site leaving majestically without answering any questions raised previously. As Messiah Deer knew he would not receive a libel while this appeal is/ was/maybe ongoing hence his articles this week and last that the mainstream media in the UK will not touch,and everyone is slowly backing away from him.

    Keep worshipping guys he is going to need your support..

  120. #120 Matthew Cline
    January 14, 2011

    @One Queer Fish:

    Orac, I never thought this was a democratic site anyway..

    1) A lot more democratic than Age of Autism.

    2) Being prohibited from repeating the same block of text over and over and over is an extremely minor restriction of speech.

  121. #121 Sauceress
    January 14, 2011

    So Queer Fish, how much money have you raised, or donated for
    your cult leaders “appeal”?

    Why aren’t you spending your time doing that rather than spamming this blog with your immature ignorance?

  122. #122 Trish Gannon
    January 14, 2011

    In my line of work, I have met face-to-face with some seriously creepy people. But I don’t think anyone has ever creeped me out as badly as reading the comments above from One Queer Fish (oddly apropos name).

  123. #123 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    316,317

    Hey dont shoot the messenger you did that before.If it werent for meee posts, Messiah Deer wouldnt have condescended on your site with words of wisdom further enlighting you to the facts he hides from you all…

  124. #124 Gray Falcon
    January 14, 2011

    OQF, he never answered your question, because you never backed up your accusation in the first place. You said the following:
    “remember Deer disclosed on lbrb that he had the children’s medical files kicking around in his apartment for a couple of weeks?” You’ve been sending every other link you could, why not send us a link to that disclosure? I might as well have said “In an earlier comment thread, OQF claimed to be working for hostile extraterrestrials,” and asked why you were selling out humanity repeatedly.

    Then there’s this: “anyone who met AW would rapidly form the impression within a half-hour, if not just minutes, that he is a good person, who really had the children’s interests at heart and had has nothing to hide.” You could say that about Ted Bundy as well.

  125. #125 Rene Najera
    January 14, 2011

    I propose that OQF is actually that weirdo dude who said he was “Smarter Than You” and wants to misdirect from his failed attempt to “open (our) eyes” in December of last year. I mean, all the clues are there… The bad grammar, the bad spelling, and the continued spamming.

  126. #126 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    318

    I thought I was sane compared to your friends but I have never meant to freak you out..time to stop living the Messiah Deer lie guys

  127. #127 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    321,322

    C`MON you insulted various bloggers on here for playing the guessing game thats not why were here is it..were here to hear from Messiah Deer ,time to start judging the Deer lie you live in guys…

  128. #128 Sauceress
    January 14, 2011

    I know you aren’t familiar with the concept queer fish,but a little research could have provided the facts of the matter. Brian Deer has just saved me that effort. (no doubt another concept you are unfamiliar with)
    Now if you’ll excuse me, I have better things to do than continue reading your factless ongoing little wankfest.

    p.s.You seem to be floating around belly up…is that normal? Never mind…the answer is obviously “yes”

  129. #129 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    324.

    Please dont go the party hasnt started yet,I have more l-a-t-e-r that Messiah Deer hasnt enlightened you all about.. hang about its good ..

  130. #130 a-non
    January 14, 2011

    OQF,

    You’re boring. Either put up or shut up. And please, no recycled AoA nonsense or links to whale.to. That’s an automatic fail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

  131. #131 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    326.

    I havent quoted AOA on here that I recall.I thought you appreciated me on here all the information ..maybe not..I guess you need to google Monopoly forums…

  132. #132 Chris
    January 14, 2011

    Citing “childhealthsafety” is also and automatic fail.

  133. #133 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    328.
    I am just reflecting the posts in the manner you project them to me ,I am your reflection does that worry you.Stop living the Messiah Deer lie…

  134. #134 Big Blue
    January 14, 2011

    @ Militant Agnostic: You win at least four Internets for the Dr Bronner references.

    Lord Zeneca, may I nominate our colleague Agnostic for Employee of the Month? Certainly s/he deserves some sort of certificate of appreciation in a handsome plastic frame.

  135. #135 LW
    January 14, 2011

    “I am just reflecting the posts in the manner you project them to me ,I am your reflection does that worry you.”. Has augustine changed its handle?

  136. #136 Matthew Cline
    January 14, 2011

    @One Queer Fish:

    Hey dont shoot the messenger

    How, exactly, was I shooting the messenger? I was responding to your accusation that this isn’t a democratic blog.

    (And if the above paragraph is also somehow “shooting the messenger”, I’m going to bang my head against my desk)

    If it werent for meee posts, Messiah Deer wouldnt have condescended on your site with words of wisdom

    Deer has commented to this blog before without being prompted by an anti-vaxxer. In fact, of all his comments here, only the one in this comment thread were in response to an anti-vaxxer.

  137. #137 One Queer Fish
    January 14, 2011

    332

    Simply I am the messenger as i brought the message that this is not a democratic site( which i wouldnt expect it to be anything other than what it is, a boorish ,thuggish, totalitarian, Orwellian, themed site )

    Simply messiah Deer could be a bit more open with you all,on here, you wouldnt hate me so much when I bring you news…..
    keep worshipping,
    keep breathing ,
    inhale ,and at the same time say to yourself “in with hate ”

    breath out saying to yourself ” out with hate”

    better now ?

    Thats all I have time for just now I have to attend to a few important matters

    Maybe more news/answers later

  138. #138 Matthew Cline
    January 14, 2011

    @One Queer Fish:

    Simply I am the messenger

    Okay, but you said that I was “shooting the messenger”. Where did I “shoot” you? Unless we all live in some weird universe were “disagreeing with the messenger” equals “shooting the messenger”.

    a boorish ,thuggish, totalitarian, Orwellian, themed site

    Oh, come on. All Orac has done is forbidden you from repeating the same block of text over and over and over. If that’s Orwellian, then what do you call Age of Autism, which frequently deletes dissenting comments?

  139. #139 a-non
    January 14, 2011

    Maybe more news/answers later

    Lame, lame, lame. C’mon, OQF, if you’ve got the goods, represent. My guess is that you don’t, that you’re nothing but a blowhard and a fraud. You and Wakey are two fo a kind.

  140. #140 Composer99
    January 15, 2011

    One Queer Fish:

    Assuming for the moment that you are a citizen resident of the United States, your rights to free speech protect you, for the most part, from government action against you. I expect other constitutional democracies will have similar safeguards.

    I am sure a constitutional expert will correct me if I am too far off the mark, but they do not guarantee you unlimited freedom of expression in private fora (including, strictly speaking, blogs such as this one).

    They also do protect you from criticism, deserved or undeserved, about your writings or the opinions they appear to reflect.

    Since your writings are mostly an incoherent word salad of unsupported, smear-like accusations against Brian Deer, no wonder people are calling you out or ridiculing you for them.

  141. #141 Composer99
    January 15, 2011

    Correction:

    They also do protect you from criticism, deserved or undeserved, about your writings or the opinions they appear to reflect.

    should be

    They also do not protect you from criticism, deserved or undeserved, about your writings or the opinions they appear to reflect.

    My bad.

  142. #142 Matthew Cline
    January 15, 2011

    @Composer99:

    but they do not guarantee you unlimited freedom of expression in private fora

    But, but, but, repeating the same block of text over and over and over wherever he wants is integral to his self expression!!!1!1

    no wonder people are calling you out or ridiculing you for them.

    Hey, man, don’t be shooting the messenger.

  143. #143 ChildHealthSafety
    January 15, 2011

    ORAC,

    It is not good enough. You threaten “One Queer Fish” with expulsion from your comment thread here [January 14, 2011 3:19 PM] for asking repeatedly a question to which a great many people want an answer.

    But it was you who published on this thread Deer’s comment issuing his formal looking statement which included this:

    “I read the children’s hospital records, under legal supervision, as the result of an order against Andrew Wakefield issued by a High Court judge.”

    Unfortunately, Mr Deer’s statement misses out the crucial family doctor [GP] National Health Service records. These were not provided to the Royal Free Hospital, were not part of the hospital records and are the key documents upon which all his allegations are based.

    Could Mr Deer please clarify his statement regarding the GP records?

    The wording of Mr Deer’s statement is unusual in the circumstances and it is difficult to see how Mr Deer could not have known that when he drafted it.

    Is Mr Deer going to “fess up” or not?

    Please tell everyone.

  144. #144 Matthew Cline
    January 15, 2011

    @ChildHealthSafety:

    for asking repeatedly a question to which a great many people want an answer.

    Well, yes. He was repeating the exact same block of text over and over and over, and it was getting really really annoying. Telling him to stop repeating one block of text over and over was a reasonable step for Orac to take. (And then One Queer Fish says that the restriction is undemocratic and Orwellian. My eyes roll)

  145. #145 ChildHealthSafety
    January 15, 2011

    Matthew Cline January 15, 2011 1:59 AM

    I agree. One Queer Fish does have a unique approach but many are also frustrated by Brian Deer’s failures to answer very basic questions.

    And what is the relevance?

    Mr Deer claims to have “gone behind” the 1998 Lancet paper – but he has not. It is clear now from his publication in the British Medical Journal that he compared the Lancet paper’s findings with the family doctor [General Practitioner or GP] records. That is comparing apples with concrete.

    The 1998 Lancet paper was written by Wakefield based on the data and results provided to him by the others on the 12 strong interdisciplinary team of specialists at The Royal Free Hospital.

    They had the initial referral letter from the GP, the “Red Book” of developmental progress [held by the parents], fresh parental histories taken by Professor Walker-Smith [not Wakefield], test and clinical examination results and any further information in any ensuing correspondence with GPs.

    If Mr Deer wanted to “go behind” the paper then he needed to have that data and those results and compare it with the contents of the Lancet paper.

    He did not do that. He used the GP records, but in his statement he claims to have used just the hospital records “read under legal supervision”.

    The hospital records did not include the GP records. The GP records were not available to, did not form part of the hospital records at The Royal Free and were not used by the treating specialists at the Royal Free.

    GP records are made by non specialists [General Practitioners], taken over years, by more than one person, omit information provided by parents and contain other information unknown to parents.

    It is also clear from the transcripts at the GMC that the GP records are riven with fundamental errors like incorrect dates of vaccinations [eg. Child 8 – 7th January instead of 27th January – “I think” said the GP in evidence] and incorrect types of vaccinations being recorded [eg. Child 4 – was it measles vaccine or was it MMR – the records say MMR – the GP said in evidence it was measles].

    And there are significant inconsistencies in the account Mr Deer has now published in detail in The British Medical Journal. We will be happy to point these out in a later post. Child 1, 8 and 11 are easy examples and there are many more.

    The Royal Free Team consisted of 13 specialists who did their own examinations, took fresh histories and made their own specialist diagnoses afresh. They did not rely on shaky family doctor [ie. non specialist] records. This is standard practice in British NHS hospitals. Unlike the USA, UK medical records do not travel with the patient. And they belong to the UK National Health Service not the patient.

    Furthermore, the GP records which Mr Deer cites extensively and in detail but regrettably inaccurately in the British Medical Journal are sealed under Court order. They are not available from the General Medical Council – only extracts read out in the GMC proceedings from the transcripts are available.

    Mr Deer does not take shorthand notes but managed to publish in February 2009 allegations that Wakefield “fixed the data” based on the GP records. He has now published in the same general vein more extensively and in greater detail “fraud” allegations when fraud by Wakefield was impossible. If he had committed fraud then that would have been noticed by the other 12 authors of the 1998 Lancet paper long before now and before it was ever published.

    As you can see therefore, an answer to the question about the GP records is fundamental. Can Mr Deer therefore please clarify his statement as this cuts across the entire credibility of everything he has ever published about Wakefield.

  146. #146 One Queer Fish
    January 15, 2011

    Messiah Deer has duped all the worshippers on here.His reporting is so narcissistic, pathetic , disengenious and lacking honesty, it boggles the mind.

    Very accurate postings above from Child Health Safety A+++.

    P.S.
    I have no complaints about this site whatsoever,it just seems that when I point out the tone of the site it comes as a shock to the regulars..shit happens..

  147. #147 Jud
    January 15, 2011

    One Queer Fish writes:

    i brought the message that this is not a democratic site

    You’re correct, it’s meritocratic, and you be strongly lackin’ in the merit department, my man.

  148. #148 Visitor
    January 15, 2011

    From the 1998 Lancet paper:

    ‘Children underwent gastroenterological, neurological, and developmental assessment and review of developmental records… Developmental histories included a review of prospective developmental records from parents, health visitors, and general practitioners.’

  149. #149 One Queer Fish
    January 15, 2011

    343.
    You fooled me just like Meesiah Deer duped you..

    344.

    And your point is?

    Just seen this on the web loads of people looking for answers from Messiah Deer,loads…

    http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2011/01/15/wakefield-mmr-brian-deer-fails-to-answer/

    Wakefield & MMR – Brian Deer Fails To Answer
    Posted on January 15, 2011 by childhealthsafety
    After publishing allegations of fraud in the British Medical Journal against the authors of The 1998 Royal Free Hospital teams’ Lancet paper, in the face of incisive criticism from many quarters journalist Brian Deer appears to have vanished from the web.
    Mr Deer normally is very quick to post on blogs around the internet but he is not answering the criticisms of his work. This includes on his own blog in The Guardian newspaper which he was given this week and on The British Medical Journal’s responses.
    No response has been received here on CHS, on Age of Autism, nor on blogs where Mr Deer regularly posts including the infamous LeftBrainRightBrain blog and even on ORAC’s blog..
    You can see criticisms posted at the following locations and there is no sign of any answer from Brian Deer so far.
    ORAC responded to questions posted for Brian Deer by blocking CHS from his site. You are of course welcome to visit – links below – and ask Mr Deer to answer, to see the criticisms and find out if Brian Deer has answered anywhere.
    If you find anywhere that Mr Deer has answered be sure to let us know.
    DEER’S OWN BLOG ON THE GUARDIAN
    “The medical establishment shielded Andrew Wakefield from fraud claims”
    BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL RESPONSES
    Responses to “Wakefield’s article linking MMR vaccine and autism was fraudulent“
    Responses to “The fraud behind the MMR scare“
    Responses to “How the case against the MMR vaccine was fixed“
    Responses to “Secrets of the MMR scare : How the vaccine crisis was meant to make money“
    AGE OF AUTISM
    Brian Deer Interviewed by Matt Lauer on Dateline NBC
    Keeping Anderson Cooper Honest: Is Brian Deer The Fraud?
    Brian Deer Hired to “Find Something Big” on MMR

    Lancet 12 Parents Respond to Brian Deer BMJ GMC Allegations
    Brian Deer in BMJ and Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s Response – AGE OF AUTISM
    CHS
    The BIG Lie – Wakefield Lancet Paper Alleged Fraud – Was Not Possible For Anyone To Commit
    Wakefield & MMR – BRIAN DEER CANNOT TELL US WHERE THE FRAUD IS
    Wakefield & MMR – Is Brian Deer “A Brick Short of A Load” [As The British Say]
    LEFTBRAINRIGHTBRAIN COMMENTS
    “Fact checking Brian Deer on Andrew Wakefield“
    “The Big Lie – what Andrew Wakefield did was possible and fraudulent“
    ORAC
    “The Vaccine Times: For parents, by parents“
    “Misdirected criticism by someone from whom I would never have expected it“

  150. #150 Militant Agnostic
    January 15, 2011

    so narcissistic, pathetic , disengenious and lacking honesty, it boggles the mind.

    sounds like a good description of Mr. Wakefield.

  151. #151 One Queer Fish
    January 15, 2011

    343.
    You having a larf or what??

    344.

    Whats your point??

    345.

    Still Dr Wakefield as he got his qualli at Uni-the Gmc cant take that away …

  152. #152 One Queer Fish
    January 15, 2011

    Soo sorry for the duplication connection to my internet playing up…

  153. #153 Militant Agnostic
    January 15, 2011

    Still Dr Wakefield as he got his qualli at Uni-the Gmc cant take that away …

    Wakefield does not have a PhD.

  154. #154 One Queer Fish
    January 15, 2011

    351.
    Yes, Bachelor/Doctor Of Medicine

  155. #155 Todd W.
    January 15, 2011

    @OQF

    Wakefield does not have a doctorate. He does not have a Doctor of Medicine (MD) degree.

  156. #156 Seb30
    January 15, 2011

    ORAC responded to questions posted for Brian Deer by blocking CHS from his site.

    CHS and OQF remind me of a French politician who regularly appeared simultaneously in the News of our 6 TV channels to shout that he is silenced by the media.

  157. #157 One Queer Fish
    January 16, 2011

    354.

    Yes MBBS..

    355.

    I have no complaints concerning this site and the way ORAC handles the postings,its not a democratic site dont forget that…or you might find your self banned

  158. #158 Matthew Cline
    January 16, 2011

    @One Queer Fish:

    its not a democratic site dont forget that

    He only prohibited you from repeating the same block of text over and over and over. Since repeating the same block of text can’t be used to convey new information, he hasn’t prevented you from communicating effectively.

  159. #159 Chemmomo
    January 16, 2011

    One Queer Fish,
    if, as you claim in post 345 at Posted by: One Queer Fish | January 15, 2011 3:23 PM,

    ORAC responded to questions posted for Brian Deer by blocking CHS from his site.

    How is it that CHS posted on a different thread (Misdirected criticism by someone from whom I would never have expected it) Posted by: ChildHealthSafety | January 15, 2011 6:27 PM?

  160. #160 Jack
    January 16, 2011

    One Queer Fish,

    At first I thought that you’re a tiresome troll with a poorly thought out arguement and no supporting data. I still thought that when you repeated the same point (sometimes even the exact same text) 50 times with no evidence. But, as you shrewdly guessed, there is a magic number of times that you need to repeat yourself before people automatically agree with you. That number happens to be somewhere in the range of 67. Congratulations, you have repeated yourself enough times that you are now correct. It probably was a more time consuming way to make yourself correct than it would have been to form a coherent argument, but I admire your tenacity for using this method. Now that you are correct by virtue of repetition, you may take some time to relax and have a non blog-related life.

  161. #161 One Queer Fish
    January 16, 2011

    357.

    Who is complaining if its not a democratic site ..not me I dont know how many times I am going to have to repeat this for you to believe me..no problem-o-o-o

    358.

    Havent a scooby??

    Tell me go on??you cheeky monkey that you are..

    359.

    Ok “coherent” how coherent do you want it, hows this

    Beggar’s belief why the GMC and rapid fire Deer don’t reply??

    1. “if you look at Deer’s report, in most cases he is comparing the Royal Free’s own records with the Lancet paper”
    Mr Deer has done it a tad shoddily it seems. How that got past the “peer reviewers” raises questions about what “peer review” means at the BMJ.
    Unfortunately Mr Deer appears to have gone to ground and is not even answering basic questions put to him on his new Guardian blog.
    Instead his “big sis” ploy is to get the BMJ Deputy Editor to post instead – she says “if you don’t like what we say sue us”. Which is a remarkable position for a supposedly peer reviewed journal to take.
    “In most cases” takes on a new meaning regarding Child 11 – remember these are allegations of fraud being made – see below.
    And we see you, like the usual suspects on a Kev Leitch blog. engage in the usual personal attacks on people who are not around to defend themselves. Nice. The usual bully tactics.
    Regrettably “visitor” it is the answers from Mr Deer himself which are needed – the horse’s mouth so-to-speak and not the go-betweens on Kevin Leitch’s blog.
    Can we have answers from Mr Deer please or is he continuing to hide?
    ______________________________
    Examples Mr Deer refuses to answer. Perhaps he might step out of the shadows now and deal with them?:-
    Child 1, 8, 11
    In order to “go behind” the 1998 Lancet paper, Mr Deer needed the original data and records provided to Mr Andrew Wakefield by his 12 other professional specialist colleagues at The Royal Free Hospital, London.
    Does Mr Deer have exactly that data and those records? Or has Mr Deer instead relied on such of the NHS records of children either disclosed to him under Court rules [CPR 31.22] in the Wakefield v Channel 4 & Deer libel litigation and/or information contained in the transcripts of the General Medical Council proceedings.
    Child 11’s medical records were not available for the GMC hearings. Very little mention was made of Child 11. Can Mr Deer explain upon what particular medical records for Child 11 he relies?
    DEVELOPMENTAL HISTORIES
    This is what the 1998 Royal Free Lancet paper said about all the Lancet 12 children:-
    they had “a history of normal development followed by loss of acquired skills”.
    That was a main issue the 1998 Royal Free Lancet paper was reporting on scientifically and medically. It also states clearly it was an “early report” and called for further investigation.
    CHILD 8
    Mr Deer says about Child 8:-
    “But although the paper specified that all 12 children were “previously normal,” [Child 8] had developmental delays, and also facial dysmorphisms, noted before MMR vaccination.
    For Child 8 specifically the Lancet paper stated:-
    “Prospective developmental records showed satisfactory achievement of early milestones in all children. The only girl (child number eight) was noted to be a slow developer compared to her older sister.”
    Let us now compare what The General Medical Council hearing transcripts show regarding Child 8’s specialist developmental pediatrician’s opinions. This specialist was not any part of the Royal Free team and was part of the normal UK NHS health service.
    May 1994 age 10.5 months:
    “There were no neurological abnormalities and I felt that her development was within normal limits”
    23 December 1994 (approx 18 months) – developmental pediatrician wrote:
    “I felt that her abilities, although delayed on the average age of attainment were not outside the range of normal. Her growth has been satisfactory.”
    17 February 1995: The developmental pediatrician writes three weeks after MMR:
    “When I reviewed her in clinic recently I confirmed that she is globally developmentally delayed, functioning at about a one year level on Denver Developmental Assessment. …… General examination is unremarkable. There were no neurological abnormalities other than the developmental delay.”
    As this is a scientific medical paper specifically focussed on developmental histories, can Mr Deer please explain where he believes the discrepancy is between what is reported in the Lancet paper and what the developmental pediatrician recorded in his clinical opinion.
    Can Mr Deer also please confirm that the appropriate opinion to rely on in such a case is that of the specialist developmental pediatrician and not the views of Child 8’s mother nor the view of the referring General Practitioner.
    Would Mr Deer like to confirm that in scientific terms in a scientific medical paper reporting on the history of development, Child 8’s clinical history was normal prior to MMR vaccination – or as the specialist developmental pediatrician stated within the “normal range”.
    CHILD 11
    Assuming Mr Deer did not have Child 11’s full medical records, on what basis can anyone make a serious allegation of fraud?
    CHILD 1
    Mr Deer implies [but does not say] that Child 1 may have had symptoms of an autistic condition aged 9 months – well before the MMR vaccination:
    “One of the mother’s concerns was that he could not hear properly—which might sound like a hallmark presentation of classical autism, the emergence of which is often insidious.”
    The additional GP records disclosed in the GMC proceedings (but not available to the Royal Free team) contain an entry documenting in addition to his mother’s concerns about Child 1’s hearing, her additional concern was about a discharge from Child 1’s left ear. Is it not correct that this concern is not suggestive of an incipient developmental disorder but of an ear infection?
    BMJ FACT CHECKING
    In The Sunday Times last, 9th January, Mr Deer says he insisted the BMJ checked his facts. Did they do so? And if so, what did they do?
    INSPECTION OF DATA
    Perhaps Mr Deer would be kind enough to confirm where the data relied on in this article can be inspected please?
    Mr Deer claims to have gone behind the Royal Free’s 1998 Lancet paper to expose fundamental flaws.
    Would Mr Deer perhaps agree that it now seems from this BMJ paper by him that is not what he has done?
    It appears Mr Deer has compared the Lancet paper’s findings with the childrens’ GP records instead of with the data and results provided to Mr Andrew Wakefield’s other 12 authors on an interdisciplinary team of medical specialists.
    It would be helpful for Mr Deer to explain how on such a basis can an allegation of fraud be sustained?
    If Mr Deer wanted to “go behind” the paper then he needed to have the data and results provided for the preparation of the Lancet paper and compare it with the contents of that paper.
    The 1998 Lancet paper was written by Mr Andrew Wakefield based on the data and results provided to him by those other 12 specialists.
    If there was any falsification as is now being alleged in the British Medical Journal Mr Wakefield’s 12 other authors would have noticed immediately.
    Those other authors had the initial referral letter from the GP, the “Red Book” of developmental progress [held by the parents], fresh parental histories taken by Professor Walker-Smith [not Wakefield], test and clinical examination results and any further information in any ensuing correspondence with GPs.
    The Royal Free Team did their own examinations, took fresh histories and made their own specialist diagnoses afresh. They did not rely on family doctor [ie. non specialist] GP records. This is standard practice in British NHS hospitals.
    GP records are made by non specialists [General Practitioners], taken over years, by more than one person, omit information provided by parents and contain other information unknown to parents.
    It is also clear from the transcripts at the GMC that the GP records are riven with fundamental errors like incorrect dates of vaccinations [eg. Child 8 – 7th January instead of 27th January – “I think” said the GP in evidence] and incorrect types of vaccinations being recorded [eg. Child 4 – was it measles vaccine or was it MMR – the records say MMR – the GP said in evidence it was measles].
    Additionally the 1998 Lancet paper stated prominently on the first page “Early Report” and it called for further investigation.
    Does Mr Deer not agree that an “early report” is an alert to other medical practitioners of a potential problem and not a claim to have found and proven one?

  162. #162 One Queer Fish
    January 16, 2011

    357.

    Who is complaining if its not a democratic site ..not me I dont know how many times I am going to have to repeat this for you to believe me..no problem-o-o-o

    358.

    Havent a scooby??

    Tell me go on??you cheeky monkey that you are..

    359.

    Ok “coherent” how coherent do you want it, hows this

    Beggar’s belief why the GMC and rapid fire Deer don’t reply??

    1. “if you look at Deer’s report, in most cases he is comparing the Royal Free’s own records with the Lancet paper”
    Mr Deer has done it a tad shoddily it seems. How that got past the “peer reviewers” raises questions about what “peer review” means at the BMJ.
    Unfortunately Mr Deer appears to have gone to ground and is not even answering basic questions put to him on his new Guardian blog.
    Instead his “big sis” ploy is to get the BMJ Deputy Editor to post instead – she says “if you don’t like what we say sue us”. Which is a remarkable position for a supposedly peer reviewed journal to take.
    “In most cases” takes on a new meaning regarding Child 11 – remember these are allegations of fraud being made – see below.
    And we see you, like the usual suspects on a Kev Leitch blog. engage in the usual personal attacks on people who are not around to defend themselves. Nice. The usual bully tactics.
    Regrettably “visitor” it is the answers from Mr Deer himself which are needed – the horse’s mouth so-to-speak and not the go-betweens on Kevin Leitch’s blog.
    Can we have answers from Mr Deer please or is he continuing to hide?
    ______________________________
    Examples Mr Deer refuses to answer. Perhaps he might step out of the shadows now and deal with them?:-
    Child 1, 8, 11
    In order to “go behind” the 1998 Lancet paper, Mr Deer needed the original data and records provided to Mr Andrew Wakefield by his 12 other professional specialist colleagues at The Royal Free Hospital, London.
    Does Mr Deer have exactly that data and those records? Or has Mr Deer instead relied on such of the NHS records of children either disclosed to him under Court rules [CPR 31.22] in the Wakefield v Channel 4 & Deer libel litigation and/or information contained in the transcripts of the General Medical Council proceedings.
    Child 11’s medical records were not available for the GMC hearings. Very little mention was made of Child 11. Can Mr Deer explain upon what particular medical records for Child 11 he relies?
    DEVELOPMENTAL HISTORIES
    This is what the 1998 Royal Free Lancet paper said about all the Lancet 12 children:-
    they had “a history of normal development followed by loss of acquired skills”.
    That was a main issue the 1998 Royal Free Lancet paper was reporting on scientifically and medically. It also states clearly it was an “early report” and called for further investigation.
    CHILD 8
    Mr Deer says about Child 8:-
    “But although the paper specified that all 12 children were “previously normal,” [Child 8] had developmental delays, and also facial dysmorphisms, noted before MMR vaccination.
    For Child 8 specifically the Lancet paper stated:-
    “Prospective developmental records showed satisfactory achievement of early milestones in all children. The only girl (child number eight) was noted to be a slow developer compared to her older sister.”
    Let us now compare what The General Medical Council hearing transcripts show regarding Child 8’s specialist developmental pediatrician’s opinions. This specialist was not any part of the Royal Free team and was part of the normal UK NHS health service.
    May 1994 age 10.5 months:
    “There were no neurological abnormalities and I felt that her development was within normal limits”
    23 December 1994 (approx 18 months) – developmental pediatrician wrote:
    “I felt that her abilities, although delayed on the average age of attainment were not outside the range of normal. Her growth has been satisfactory.”
    17 February 1995: The developmental pediatrician writes three weeks after MMR:
    “When I reviewed her in clinic recently I confirmed that she is globally developmentally delayed, functioning at about a one year level on Denver Developmental Assessment. …… General examination is unremarkable. There were no neurological abnormalities other than the developmental delay.”
    As this is a scientific medical paper specifically focussed on developmental histories, can Mr Deer please explain where he believes the discrepancy is between what is reported in the Lancet paper and what the developmental pediatrician recorded in his clinical opinion.
    Can Mr Deer also please confirm that the appropriate opinion to rely on in such a case is that of the specialist developmental pediatrician and not the views of Child 8’s mother nor the view of the referring General Practitioner.
    Would Mr Deer like to confirm that in scientific terms in a scientific medical paper reporting on the history of development, Child 8’s clinical history was normal prior to MMR vaccination – or as the specialist developmental pediatrician stated within the “normal range”.
    CHILD 11
    Assuming Mr Deer did not have Child 11’s full medical records, on what basis can anyone make a serious allegation of fraud?
    CHILD 1
    Mr Deer implies [but does not say] that Child 1 may have had symptoms of an autistic condition aged 9 months – well before the MMR vaccination:
    “One of the mother’s concerns was that he could not hear properly—which might sound like a hallmark presentation of classical autism, the emergence of which is often insidious.”
    The additional GP records disclosed in the GMC proceedings (but not available to the Royal Free team) contain an entry documenting in addition to his mother’s concerns about Child 1’s hearing, her additional concern was about a discharge from Child 1’s left ear. Is it not correct that this concern is not suggestive of an incipient developmental disorder but of an ear infection?
    BMJ FACT CHECKING
    In The Sunday Times last, 9th January, Mr Deer says he insisted the BMJ checked his facts. Did they do so? And if so, what did they do?
    INSPECTION OF DATA
    Perhaps Mr Deer would be kind enough to confirm where the data relied on in this article can be inspected please?
    Mr Deer claims to have gone behind the Royal Free’s 1998 Lancet paper to expose fundamental flaws.
    Would Mr Deer perhaps agree that it now seems from this BMJ paper by him that is not what he has done?
    It appears Mr Deer has compared the Lancet paper’s findings with the childrens’ GP records instead of with the data and results provided to Mr Andrew Wakefield’s other 12 authors on an interdisciplinary team of medical specialists.
    It would be helpful for Mr Deer to explain how on such a basis can an allegation of fraud be sustained?
    If Mr Deer wanted to “go behind” the paper then he needed to have the data and results provided for the preparation of the Lancet paper and compare it with the contents of that paper.
    The 1998 Lancet paper was written by Mr Andrew Wakefield based on the data and results provided to him by those other 12 specialists.
    If there was any falsification as is now being alleged in the British Medical Journal Mr Wakefield’s 12 other authors would have noticed immediately.
    Those other authors had the initial referral letter from the GP, the “Red Book” of developmental progress [held by the parents], fresh parental histories taken by Professor Walker-Smith [not Wakefield], test and clinical examination results and any further information in any ensuing correspondence with GPs.
    The Royal Free Team did their own examinations, took fresh histories and made their own specialist diagnoses afresh. They did not rely on family doctor [ie. non specialist] GP records. This is standard practice in British NHS hospitals.
    GP records are made by non specialists [General Practitioners], taken over years, by more than one person, omit information provided by parents and contain other information unknown to parents.
    It is also clear from the transcripts at the GMC that the GP records are riven with fundamental errors like incorrect dates of vaccinations [eg. Child 8 – 7th January instead of 27th January – “I think” said the GP in evidence] and incorrect types of vaccinations being recorded [eg. Child 4 – was it measles vaccine or was it MMR – the records say MMR – the GP said in evidence it was measles].
    Additionally the 1998 Lancet paper stated prominently on the first page “Early Report” and it called for further investigation.
    Does Mr Deer not agree that an “early report” is an alert to other medical practitioners of a potential problem and not a claim to have found and proven one?

  163. #163 Chemmomo
    January 16, 2011

    One Queer Fish @360, 361
    Nothing in this comment you decided to post twice yet again (including your reply to me) even remotely resembles “coherent.”

  164. #164 Matthew Cline
    January 16, 2011

    @One Queer Fish:

    Who is complaining if its not a democratic site ..not me

    You’ve called this site thuggish, totalitarian, and Orwellian, but you’re not complaining, no sir!

  165. #165 One Queer Fish
    January 17, 2011

    362.

    Sorry for posting twice ,the connection seems to take about 5 minutes for it to post ,and it seems to sit doing nothing and then I hit again and instantly ,it comes up twice.

    363.
    Someone tell them I aint complaining ,just highlighted the enviroment…no problemoooo.If you keep repeating this you are wasting Oracs band width..

    Could any of the pair of you give any answers or debate to the above,thought not…bye

  166. #166 dedicated lurker
    January 17, 2011

    Okay, Fish: you’re talking gibberish.

  167. #167 Chemmomo
    January 17, 2011

    One Queer Fish

    Sorry for posting twice ,the connection seems to take about 5 minutes for it to post ,and it seems to sit doing nothing and then I hit again and instantly ,it comes up twice.

    The little swirly dots that replace the Sb (Science Blogs logo) on the tab indicate that it is doing something. You can always open another tab or another window because posts often appear in the new one before the old one lets you know it’s finished processing.

  168. #168 Peter P
    January 17, 2011

    OneQueerFish is in fact a Mr Angus Files, who lives in the west of Scotland. He is from what farmers would call “run out stock”.

    He spent a lot of time not so long ago on the ex-British MPs site, repeating the same things, over and over, as he is here.

    We need to try to feel compassion for him, since his family has essentially fallen off the edge of the periodic table. I’m not sure if he is able to notice that other people do not keep repeating themselves.

    He is truly a sad case.

  169. #169 One Queer Fish
    January 17, 2011

    367.

    Oh!! were not doing the guessing game = abuse from a lot of the posters.

    What about adding a shill or two to the above questions please.

  170. #170 dedicated lurker
    January 17, 2011

    Sorry, Fishy, you forgot to phrase your inquiry in the form of a question.

  171. #171 Solis
    January 17, 2011

    if anyone wants to know why the general public has such a difficult time trusting the pro-vaccination crowd, maybe it would be worthwhile to read the following. quite naturally, when vaccines companies attempt to use biological weapons to kill upwards of 20,000,000 people, it becomes kind of difficult to trust that lobby/industry.

    Vaccines as Biological Weapons? Live Avian Flu Virus Placed in Baxter Vaccine Materials Sent to 18 Countries:

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/vaccines-as-biological-weapons-live-avian-flu-virus-placed-in-baxter-vaccine-materials-sent-to-18-countries.html

  172. #172 Antaeus Feldspar
    January 18, 2011

    Prison Planet, like whale.to, treats The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as an authentic document. That destroys their credibility right there. And the original article is by Mike Adams of Natural News, who through ignorance or mendacity purports to explain skeptics’ beliefs about vaccines and gets even the most easily researched part 100% wrong.

  173. #173 Anonymous
    January 18, 2011

    Aren’t you embarrassed to use a source called “Prison Planet”?
    http://www.outcastweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/tin-foil-hat.jpg

  174. #174 One Queer Fish
    January 18, 2011

    If your eating you museli spit it out before you choke.. Deers BMJ article is now (conflict of interest) flawed and will have to be withdrawn..Peer reviewed heee..heeee..heee!

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/01/harvey-marcovitch-and-brian-deers-investigation-the-lord-high-everything-else.html

  175. #175 DT35
    January 19, 2011

    @OQF:
    The GMC today finalized Wakefield’s erasure from the medical register, so the “appeal” that he apparently filed but never pursued is concluded. So now what’s preventing him from filing a libel suit? The provable truth of the BMJ articles?

  176. #176 Science Mom
    January 19, 2011

    If your eating you museli spit it out before you choke.. Deers BMJ article is now (conflict of interest) flawed and will have to be withdrawn..Peer reviewed heee..heeee..heee!

    That’s it? Cuz John Stone on AoA says so? No AWOL/OQF, the editors had their eyes wide open and legal advise before publishing Deer’s features. Oh, and it looks like Wankers will have plenty of time to file that libel suit given he doesn’t have that pesky GMC appeal to distract him.

  177. #177 One Queer Fish
    January 19, 2011

    Back to the guessing game. Bloggers on here give abuse for the guessing game.

    I was looking through articles today for libel r.e Dr Wakefield (Wankers to you) just as it happens, along with other libel bits I found the article below Deer uses the word “changed” now i don’t see any proof in all the papers Deer has written since the article below was printed to prove that Wakefield changed anything? hats just one snippet ,more to follow..

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece

    From The Sunday Times
    February 8, 2009
    MMR doctor Andrew Wakefield fixed data on autism
    Brian Deer
    THE doctor who sparked the scare over the safety of the MMR vaccine for children changed and misreported results in his research, creating the appearance of a possible link with autism, a Sunday Times investigation has found.

  178. #178 Gray Falcon
    January 19, 2011

    Two things you have to understand. First of all, the article doesn’t say he changed the records, it says he changed the results. Secondly, your attacks on Brian Deer are meaningless, the physical evidence, in the form of the actual records and Wakefield’s false report, is still there.

  179. #179 Sauceress
    January 19, 2011

    Queer Fish
    Constantly having to alter your diversionary tactics must be ever so frustrating, not to mention tiring.

    Poor fish

    Oh and someone needs to also tell you that your favourite parrot is…really…seriously…well it is dead dearheart.

  180. #180 One Queer Fish
    January 20, 2011

    377.Who said changed records ?Change reqires proof Deer has supplied zilch,zero,nil..

    378.Diversionary tactic…what you on man?I replied to ScienceMom she raised libel..

    If you want a change of tac ..just came out today shh, dont tell Messiah Deer..

    January 20, 2011
    The Great Pretender: Brian Deer’s Wakefield Soap Opera

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/01/the-great-pretender-brian-deers-wakefield-soap-opera.html#more

    By Martin J Walker MA.

    Oh yes I’m the great pretender (ooh ooh)
    Pretending that I’m doing well (ooh ooh)
    My need is such I pretend too much
    Oh yes I’m the great pretender (ooh ooh)
    Adrift in a world of my own (ooh ooh)
    Too real is this feeling of make believe
    Too real when I feel what my heart can’t conceal

    Buck Ram[1]

    With the growth of corporations and democracy there came
    a vast growth in corporate propaganda as a means of defending
    corporate interests against democracy.

    Alex Carey[2]

    Without a story to explain ourselves we are nothing.

    Tariq Miah[3]

    Speaking to a well regarded European writer the other day, I heard the words, ‘But Deer came from nowhere, he is not a journalist of any note, he is not really a journalist is he?’ hearing this and other remarks, it can only be described as unfortunate that neither those who question vaccine safety or those of us who have campaigned for vaccine damaged children have made no real attempt to investigate Brian Deer’s contact with the pharmaceutical industry. On occasions I have been disturbed by the off-the-cuff allegations and ad hominem attacks made against Deer, this is not because he is not the most loathsome of characters but because without real investigations and properly constructed evidence we will never be able to free ourselves from the lingering foul smell which emanates from his presence in this conflict.

    READ MORE FOLLOW THE LINK ABOVE,GREAT, ISN`T IT FANTASTIC.

  181. #181 One Queer Fish
    January 20, 2011

    Gary Null Show ,listen to Isabella Thomas,Jackie Fletcher and Clifford ..

    http://www.progressiveradionetwork.com/the-gary-null-show-wnye/

  182. #182 murat
    February 12, 2011

    were not doing the guessing game

  183. #183 wlat
    September 22, 2011

    I have to go right back to the first comment and agree that in all his awesomeness Anderson Cooper has kept it on point and done his job as a journalist to keep the facts straight rather than muddied by propaganda.

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