Respectful Insolence

It’s been pointed out to me that our old pal David Kirby, perhaps the cleverest antivaccine propagandist out there, is back at (where else?) The Huffington Post (a.k.a. HuffPo) asking why The Autism-Vaccine Debate: Why It Won’t Go Away (short answer: because opportunists like Kirby have teamed with believers in pseudoscience to keep fanning the flames of this manufactroversy whenever they fade to embers). I’ve been debating whether it’s worthwhile to produce a response to his disingenuously slimy arguments yet again, given that Kirby’s being even more disingenuously slimy than usual. In the meantime, while I’m debating whether it’s better to ignore Kirby or to be a benevolent Plexiglass box of blinking multi-colored lights and give him the not-so-Respectful Insolence he clearly so desperately craves, I also noticed that, while engaging in some necromancy, a commenter named Dinah Everett Snyder expresses her extreme displeasure with my treatment of Andrew Wakefield in the comments of a two year old post:

Having just spent some time reading the posts attached to this blog on autism and Dr. Wakefield I would like to tell the author of the article , if it could be called such, that he has done a damning and despicable disservice to the now millions of children in absolute agony due to their symproms of an illness that they were not born with, and on whom governments,the medical establishment, the media and special interest groups have turned their backs.

Oh! Wait, not exactly ! The special interest groups (read : pharmaceutical companies) have found a way to profit even from this travesty by prescribing more and more drugs to alleviate the symptoms in these children.( which do not work .) Please be aware that attention deficit and related ” labels” are part of the autism spectrum and as such, these children support a multi billion dollar additional drug platform through such drugs as Ritalin etc.

Scientific Integrity demands following the principles of ethical research, taking a hypothosis through to its own natural conclussion and NOT trying to make the science fit the need or preconceived idea/ notion!

Contrary to what the media has said, Dr. Wakefield questioned a causal link between autism and the combination vaccine of Measles, Mumps and Rubella, noting that a new measles strain had been used in the combo jab.

And, the study HAS been duplicated, ad nauseum, in the US, Japan and Australia in the years since Dr. Wakefields first paper hit the headlines.

Further,many papers have been published that seek to understand the chronic inflammation of the gut associated with many autistic children.Papers have been published that look at the gut issues of ADHD children too, lest you think otherwise. And the evidence supports this as a relevant area of study, a relevant area of answer seeking.

Rather than attack one man, governments and medical establishments would be better off finding ANSWERS to the question of autism. In fact, each and every person who pays taxes should be demanding that the FDA fund those critical studies, now ! Most especially in light of the fact that the FDA is seeking more and more funding (read: OUR tax dollars) in order to finance “research” and ” development” in “critical areas” on behalf of drug companies, which are global entities and the biggest sector of commerce. They DO NOT need the additional support from a government entity, OR our tax dollars. Unless they intend to gift all tax payers with the resulting medications free of charge to both us and our insurance providers (read: of course this is a joke ! ) The ignorance and bias on this ENTIRE blog site is indicative of the sick culture that we have become. Know this then, autism issues are no different to those of cancer, diabetes, HIV Aids and auto immue illness…and as such they ALL deserve our investment in Scientific Integrity and transparancy from the Department of Health and Human Services. Drug companies are merely interested in profit, not solutions. There is NO MONEY in a cure, you ignorant bunch of fellow people.

Autistic children deserve our compassion and attention and their families NEED our help. But for the grace of god, there stands each and every one of YOU.

If we are able to turn our backs on our wounded soldiers and our damaged children, what does that say of us, and what have we become? Shamed, you have all been shamed.

Ignorance is no excuse.

It’s half-tempting to ask my readers to engage in a game of “name that logical fallacy,” but truly, Dinah hits pretty much every brain-dead antivaccine talking point. Given how thoroughly Andrew Wakefield has been disgraced, how intellectually bankrupt and fraudulent his “research” has been demonstrated to be, and how morally bankrupt as a human being he is, it’s depressing that he still has such ardent “fans.”

“Cult”-like is indeed an accurate term to describe the antivaccine activists who still lionize Andrew Wakefield. Indeed, I still find it quite odd how even the seemingly more intelligent antivaccine propagandists still stick to Andy like glue. In any case, if Dinah wants to try to respond, here’s the place to do it, in a brand, spankin’ new post.

Comments

  1. #1 marc
    February 12, 2011

    I have always wondered why more parents, aware of “the millions of sufferers” aren’t more angry at a fraudulent hack like Wakers for diverting millions and millions of dollars from real research on autism. I know it is difficult to come to these terms, but thy have to be assuming the hypothesis was right before the confirming results were in to so beatify poor Andy.

  2. #2 marc
    February 12, 2011

    I have always wondered why more parents, aware of “the millions of sufferers” aren’t more angry at a fraudulent hack like Wakers for diverting millions and millions of dollars from real research on autism. I know it is difficult to come to these terms, but thy have to be assuming the hypothesis was right before the confirming results were in to so beatify poor Andy.

  3. #3 Kristen
    February 12, 2011

    It is always interesting when someone who doesn’t (I presume) have an autistic child assumes nobody who opposes Wakefield could be a parent of such a child.

    In case she comes back: Wakefield did nothing for my son and daughter except waste reasearch money. He is the worst of scum, exploiting autistic children for his own gain.

    See, I can be all mean too.

  4. #4 doctorgoo
    February 12, 2011

    A quick search on Teh Googlez lead to this comment by her at the bottom of this webpage about Teh EVEEEL FDA stopping companies from making false promises about colloidal silver being able to stop AIDS and other diseases:

    http://www.silvermedicine.org/fda.html

  5. #5 Anthro
    February 12, 2011

    Since when is ADHD “on the autism spectrum”? Not one of the docs who diagnosed me, some of my children and a number of my grandchildren ever mentioned it! Should we just double up on the Ritalin now that we know this so that we can unwittingly line the pockets of BigPharma?

    But none of us has “gut” problems (other than some excess fat). What CAN it mean? I’m sure Dinah has some explanation.

  6. #6 Kristen
    February 12, 2011

    Anthro,

    My son’s Dr. made a point of saying his autism diagnosis is separate from his ADD diagnosis. I don’t know if my understanding is correct. If ADD was just a part of his autism he wouldn’t have a separate diagnosis for it. But someone correct me if I am wrong.

  7. #7 BA
    February 12, 2011

    Please do deliver that not-so-Respectful Insolence to the terminally attention-deprived David Kirby.

  8. #8 Not House
    February 12, 2011

    Ooh! Ooh! Is it Pharma Shill Fallacy?

    What do I win?

  9. #9 Science Mom
    February 12, 2011

    And, the study HAS been duplicated, ad nauseum, in the US, Japan and Australia in the years since Dr. Wakefields first paper hit the headlines.

    I wonder if Dinah would be so kind as to share these alleged duplicated studies. This is a rhetorical exercise for the rest of you.

  10. #10 Rasputin
    February 12, 2011

    Until he has been strung up by his testicles and flogged repeatedly with a garden hose while being forced to watch every episode of ALF on an endless loop then nobody has been too mean to him.

    He put making money ahead of children’s lives. That puts him in the 99th percentile of scumbags.

  11. #11 G
    February 12, 2011

    I had a guy go on at me for a while, once, that since I was intelligent my ADD wasn’t *really* ADD, it was high-functioning autism. I wondered how an AC repairman came to be so learned in psychiatry ;)

  12. #12 Ruth
    February 12, 2011

    @Rasputin

    I think Wakefield should be strapped down and made to take all the quack treatments created by the anti-vaxers. Castrate him with the Geirs protocol, while giving him EDTA suppositories.

  13. #13 Sastra
    February 12, 2011

    Drug companies are merely interested in profit, not solutions. There is NO MONEY in a cure, you ignorant bunch of fellow people.

    Yes, it’s a fertile field, but this one just leaped out at me. NO MONEY in a cure for autism? Or a cure for cancer? Diabetes, AIDS, auto-immune disorders? None at all? Really?

    Yeah, the first pharmaceutical company that comes up with a cure for cancer is going to lose its shirt. It would certainly go broke, because suddenly everyone is going to want to buy it and … no, wait. That doesn’t work. Ok. It must be that the first company to come up with a cure for some major disease would be immediately concerned that this is just so unfair for its competitors. Ok, not competitors. Colleagues. Friends. There are no winners and losers in Big Business. So they will suppress the discovery, lest it make other companies lose both money and self-esteem.

    Yeah, that works.

    No, it doesn’t. I mean, even if you assume that drug companies and medical research facilities are filled with heartless monsters only in it for the money, I can’t even make sense of the idea that this would mean they would not want to make a ground-breaking discovery that would make them, personally, rich because … it comes at the cost of hurting the other heartless money-grubbing monsters?

    If nothing else, this Snyder woman seems a bit unclear on the habits and behaviors of the typical heartless money-grubbing monster. But perhaps I am ignorant, as she suggests, and she has more experience in this area.

  14. #14 Rene Najera
    February 12, 2011

    “Rather than attack one man, governments and medical establishments would be better off finding ANSWERS to the question of autism”

    Hmmm… Rather than attack one man, like anti-vaxers attack Dr. Paul Offit?

    Government and medical establishments… Wouldn’t the anti-vaxers also be better off finding answers instead of scapegoats?

    Just askin’.

  15. #15 novalox
    February 12, 2011

    Is snyder at the third stage of the Crisip anti-vaccination theory?

    That despite the boatload of evidence against her position and the sheer lack of evidence on her side, she believes her utter crap nonsense even more, as to make it self evident?

    Just saying’.

    But honestly, her commentaries and pitiful attempts at ad hominems and projection are laughable, almost pitiable.

    It’s almost like she’s a Poe.

  16. #16 Phoenix Woman
    February 12, 2011

    This is what happens when you attack science education in both public and private schools. Combine that with the staggeringly high costs of real medicine, and it’s not surprising that desperate people who are either underinsured or not insured will reach for whatever straws the woomeisters hold out to them. They don’t have the basic grounding in science needed to know that the woomeisters are full of crap; worse yet, a lot of these people are actually smart, but so undereducated in science that they have no idea just how much they really don’t know — and there are no new Carl Sagans out there who are prepared to explain it to them.

  17. #17 BioengineerGreg
    February 12, 2011

    “Drug companies are merely interested in profit, not solutions. There is NO MONEY in a cure, you ignorant bunch of fellow people.”

    While I certainly don’t want to defend this kind of lunacy (Wakefield is one of the few people I hate more than Jenny McCarthy), I think she is trying to state the “Doctor’s Paradox”. I’ve heard it in other discussions, but I’m not sure if that is the right name for it.

    It goes something like this:

    The Greatest Doctor in the World (think Plato’s ideal) would be able to cure all people of all illnesses. He would then have eliminated his own job (and that of all of his colleagues). Therefore, it is in His interest to maintain the current level of illness.

    I’m not saying it’s true, but it’s one of the less illogical statements in her rant.

  18. #18 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 12, 2011

    Not House @ 8:
    I’m picking “All of the above.”

    If I thought she could be persuaded to actually give an on-topic answer (instead of Gish-galloping around the place and reiterating empty accusations) I’d ask Dinah “What evidence would convince you that Andrew Wakefield had acted dishonestly? Obviously you don’t want to accept the evidence that’s already out there, so what more evidence do you think would be there that isn’t? Would you refuse to accept that Wakefield had done anything wrong unless he personally confessed to it – or would even that not be enough to persuade you?”

    Also, Matthew Cline, please see my answer to you on the “We will overcome” post thread.

  19. #19 MartinM
    February 12, 2011

    More interesting is Dinah’s second comment, in which it becomes apparent that she’s just shilling for her upcoming book.

  20. #20 Pareidolius
    February 12, 2011

    . . . you ignorant bunch of fellow people . . .

    I can only hear that line being delivered by the French Knight taunting King Arthur in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

  21. #21 Daniel J. Andrews
    February 12, 2011

    The most startling revelation over at that old thread was

    Wakefield was replicated in Australia

    .
    Either SG-1 missed one of the little buggers, or human cloning restrictions in Australia have been lifted.
    -dan

  22. #23 Forbidden Snowflake
    February 12, 2011

    Damn, this discombobulated, CAPSing, rambling individual is supposed to be the author of a book?

  23. #24 Asper
    February 12, 2011

    @19 MartinM: I think this is the exact point why she posted this comment and similiar once on two crany sites ( one of them was recently covered on sciencebasedmedicine.org ;) ). It is just the old game of “every publicity is good publicity”. Following googletrends should be interesting.

    Don´t feed the cranky trolls and greetings from Germany,

    Asper

  24. #25 GlaxoPharma Com Orbital
    February 12, 2011

    MESSAGE BEGINS——————

    Thrice Crowned Sastra, Polemarch of the Outer Rim, Grand Vitara of Soozuch IV and Inquisitor General of the Glaxxon Corpus:

    I mean, even if you assume that drug companies and medical research facilities are filled with heartless monsters only in it for the money . . .

    Though it is beyond this humble Glaxxon Subjugator’s rank to correct one of Empress Cialis Clopidogra’s [may she live for all time] Polemarch’s, protocol insists that I point out that your grace surely meant to say “. . . heartless monsters only in it for the monkey.” That would make total sense.

    Groveling in obeisance and no small amount of fear (crest lowered), yrs vry trly

    Lord Draconis Zeneca, VC, iH7L

    Forward Mavoon of the Great Fleet, Suzerain of V’tar and Pharmaca Magna of Terra

    PharmaCOM Orbital HQ

    0010101101001

    —————————————— MESSAGE ENDS

  25. #26 Chris
    February 12, 2011

    Cannabis, you are spamming and off topic. You should see this.

  26. #27 Onkel Bob
    February 12, 2011

    Damn, this discombobulated, CAPSing, rambling individual is supposed to be the author of a book?

    Can’t tell, but if so, it will likely be vanity press or some such venue. The writing style is not going to attract any reputable publishing house. It’s obvious that a tremendous amount of editing will be needed to create a coherent prose. Who is going to devote that effort when they can attract a crank who already has followers?

    The nom de Web appears in odd threads using some interesting, dare I say British, word spellings and phrasing. (“practise” for practice, jab for vaccine.) Strange that a brit would go after the FDA (see above silver comment) but he/she could be a transplant to our fair shores.

  27. #28 Left_Wing_Fox
    February 12, 2011

    17: It’s even nonsense at that level.

    The greatest doctor in the world might be able to cure all disease, but unless he can PREVENT all disease, he’s always going to have people coming to him with new problems. People seem to talk about a “Cure for Cancer” or “The Common Cold” as if the disease will vanish from the face of the earth once it’s discovered.

  28. #29 Dangerous Bacon
    February 12, 2011

    Dinah: “Scientific Integrity demands following the principles of ethical research, taking a hypothosis through to its own natural conclussion* and NOT trying to make the science fit the need or preconceived idea/ notion!”

    This woman obviously has it in for Wakefield and the Geiers. How mean, nasty, and, well, accurate a characterization of their activities.

    “Damn, this discombobulated, CAPSing, rambling individual is supposed to be the author of a book?”

    She’s a natural for LoonNatural News. Mike Adams has probably contacted her already to join his stable of ex-HuffPo authors. She’d fit right in.

    *I felt a bit dazed reading this. Could it be a symptom of a conclussion?

  29. #30 Avenel
    February 12, 2011

    I spoke to my wife, the special ed teacher. Apparently, some therapists are in fact pushing for ADD and ADHD to be concidered part of the Autism spectrum.

  30. #31 amphiox
    February 12, 2011

    “Drug companies are merely interested in profit, not solutions. There is NO MONEY in a cure, you ignorant bunch of fellow people.”

    And since vaccines do not cure, but prevent, and are so far the only intervention yet developed that has ever, ever, ELIMINATED AN ENTIRE DISEASE from the wild, then Big Pharma ought to be running away from vaccines like lemmings, screaming in terror.

    Or funneling massive funds into the pockets of men like Wakefield in order to discredit and destroy this existential threat to their bottom line.

  31. #32 Liz Ditz
    February 12, 2011

    Adding more to what Kristen said @3

    Marc @1

    I have always wondered why more parents, aware of “the millions of sufferers” aren’t more angry …

    Part the first: I am guessing (without much data other than observation) that most parents of children of autism, especially those diagnosed say since about 2006, do not give credence to the “autism is vaccine injury” meme. They might be aggravated by the vaccine talk, but are too busy keeping up with their kids’ schooling, or advocating for better services and training at the local level, to give much thought to causation.

    Part the second: One of the most irritating thing about the “autism is vaccine injury” brigade is that they have successfully marketed themselves as representing all parents of children with autism. It isn’t true.

  32. #33 Gopiballava
    February 12, 2011

    This mythological platonic doctor will need to see 133,000 patients a day for 30 years if s/he is going to treat 1 billion people, which is probably an underestimate of the number who will need treatment. I’m not seeing this as much of a dilemma. Other doctors may have problems, but this guy will do just fine.

    As for pharmaceutical companies:
    1. If they cure one disease, they will still have many others that still needs drugs
    2. If there is a cure, somebody else may develop it first
    3. Another company can always develop a better drug, ending their revenue stream – being the current best seller for condition X is not that helpful long term (and long term is the way this works: by the time the cure has gone from first results to FDA approval, an eternity will have passed)
    4. This is not a game of Civilization. You don’t know what your research will yield. I suspect that a cure will start as “that molecule does something interesting with this receptor that is part of the disease” (please correct me if I’m wrong on this. It just seems unlikely that you will know early on whether something will be a cure or a “lesser” treatment)

    This is a variation of the prisoner’s dilemma, except we win :)

  33. #34 Gopiballava
    February 12, 2011

    This mythological platonic doctor will need to see 133,000 patients a day for 30 years if s/he is going to treat 1 billion people, which is probably an underestimate of the number who will need treatment. I’m not seeing this as much of a dilemma. Other doctors may have problems, but this guy will do just fine.

    As for pharmaceutical companies:
    1. If they cure one disease, they will still have many others that still needs drugs
    2. If there is a cure, somebody else may develop it first
    3. Another company can always develop a better drug, ending their revenue stream – being the current best seller for condition X is not that helpful long term (and long term is the way this works: by the time the cure has gone from first results to FDA approval, an eternity will have passed)
    4. This is not a game of Civilization. You don’t know what your research will yield. I suspect that a cure will start as “that molecule does something interesting with this receptor that is part of the disease” (please correct me if I’m wrong on this. It just seems unlikely that you will know early on whether something will be a cure or a “lesser” treatment)

    This is a variation of the prisoner’s dilemma, except we win :)

  34. #35 Jay Gordon
    February 12, 2011

    “The Autism-Vaccine Debate: Why It Won’t Go Away (short answer: because writers like Orac have teamed with believers in “science” to keep fanning the flames of this manufactroversy whenever they fade to embers)”

    There, fixed that for you.

    Seriously, with so many other incredibly important topics to discuss and the very tenuous connection of “antivax” rhetoric to disease incidence, why not leave this alone for a few months??

    Help from all assembled: Not your favorite website, but are the data in this article completely wrong? Thanks for your comments

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/02/measles-in-the-united-kingdom-the-wakefield-factor.html#more

    Have a nice weekend!

    Best,

    Jay

  35. #36 ebohlman
    February 12, 2011

    orac, marc: The hanging-on to Wakefield is exactly what cognitive dissonance theory predicts: it’s the old “throwing good money after bad” phenomenon. See Aronson and Tavris’s Mistakes Were Made (but not be me) for a cogent explanation of cognitive dissonance.

    Anthro: The claim that ADHD is part of the autism spectrum is part of an attempt at Texas Sharpshooting: simply look at the incidences of various childhood disorders, single out the ones that appear to have risen recently, and then claim that today’s generation of kids is the least healthy ever. Snake-oil peddlers and their advocates like to claim that autism, ADHD, asthma and overweight are all essentially the same phenomenon.

    There’s also the fact that autism treatment isn’t primarily pharmaceutical, so expanding the definition to include conditions that do have pharmaceutical treatments allows the woomeisters to claim a commercial interest that simply isn’t there.

    Sastra, Greg: The problem with the Doctor’s Paradox is that in today’s economy, the number of players who would stand to profit (significantly) from a major reduction in disease substantially exceeds those who would lose money. That’s why Snyder has to falsely claim that Big Pharma accounts for almost all the economy. It plays into a common bogeyman of the Left, namely the notion that all corporate interests are monolithic and indistinguishable.

  36. #37 Orac
    February 12, 2011

    “The Autism-Vaccine Debate: Why It Won’t Go Away (short answer: because writers like Orac have teamed with believers in “science” to keep fanning the flames of this manufactroversy whenever they fade to embers)”

    There, fixed that for you.

    Dr. Jay, you owe me a new irony meter. I’ll just add it to your tab.

    Seriously, who on “our side” stirs up this manufactroversy when its embers are dying?

    Oh, by the way, you forgot to substitute another word for “manufactroversy.” You do know what the word means, don’t you? It means “manufactured controversy” and refers to cranks supporting pseudoscience trying to make a controversy out of something that is not scientifically controversial. Think evolution deniers. Think anthropogenic global warming denialists. Think HIV/AIDS denialists.

    Think anti-vaccinationists like David Kirby, and the whole AoA crew, plus their enablers like you.

  37. #38 Jay Gordon
    February 12, 2011

    “Seriously, who on “our side” stirs up this manufactroversy when its embers are dying?”

    You do!! You owe me a new irony meter, David.

    Still, please let me know what you think about the measles data in the article. Thanks.

    Jay

  38. #39 jre
    February 12, 2011

    FYI: Seth Mnookin has an excellent post on Kirby and the HuffPo. It’s worth a read; also worthwhile to follow the links to Mnookin’s guest post over at Scientific American and Matthew Herper’s piece in Forbes. I was particularly disappointed in some of the commentary at SciAm. Takeaway message: the anti-vaccine narrative is very compelling to a lot of people for a lot of reasons, and having some interest in science is no guarantee that you won’t be taken in.

  39. #40 Onkel Bob
    February 12, 2011

    In the meantime, while I’m debating whether it’s better to ignore Kirby or to be a benevolent Plexiglass box of blinking multi-colored lights and give him the not-so-Respectful Insolence he clearly so desperately craves,…

    Seriously, with so many other incredibly important topics to discuss and the very tenuous connection of “antivax” rhetoric to disease incidence, why not leave this alone for a few months??

    Doctor J, how did you pass all those tests in school with such poor reading skills? Are you an idiot-savant? To answer your question, I wish to pose one of mine: what serious problems are solved by discussion on weblogs? Is RI replacing Nature as the publishing venue of choice? As for your blathering

    Help from all assembled: Not your favorite website, but are the data in this article completely wrong?

    The data are not wrong but perhaps the conclusions arrived from interpretation are?

  40. #41 Forbidden Snowflake
    February 12, 2011

    You do!!

    The “I’m rubber, you’re glue” defense?

  41. #42 Elf Eye
    February 12, 2011

    I must say that I have found Andrew Wakefield’s exploits to be very useful–as fodder for illustrating concepts such as sample size, cherry picking, and confirmation bias in critical thinking units.

  42. #43 Orac
    February 12, 2011

    You do!! You owe me a new irony meter, David.

    I call buillshit on you, Dr. Jay.

    I only do my little part to respond to the nonsense put forth by anti-vaccine propagandists like your buddies at AoA and your patient’s mom Jenny McCarthy. When they’re quiet, I move on to other topics to blog about, because there’s a lot of pseudoscience out there besides anti-vaccine lunacy and lots of science and medicine to discuss. Quite frankly, I weary of batting down the same lies of the likes of AoA year after year, but have resigned myself to be in it for the long haul. Why? Because this is such a critical issue, and the more success antivaccine loons have the more likely a public health disaster, with the return of infectious diseases once thought vanquished, you know, like what’s been happening in the U.K. with measles since Wakefield.

    So, no, Dr. Jay. I’m not going away, no matter how much you wish I were.

  43. #44 Autism & Oughtisms
    February 12, 2011

    Dinah:

    ..”Scientific Integrity demands following the principles of ethical research, taking a hypothosis through to its own natural conclussion and NOT trying to make the science fit the need or preconceived idea/ notion!”..

    But isn’t that exactly what you are doing – insisting that science is wrong because it doesn’t match your ideas of what it should be concluding, and ignoring what science has reliably shown time and time again (that Wakefield’s findings were incorrect)?

    ..”And, the study HAS been duplicated, ad nauseum, in the US, Japan and Australia in the years since Dr. Wakefields first paper hit the headlines.”

    Cite those studies. I’ve seen ample evidence that the studies which claimed to find a link were flawed in major ways, of very small smaples, or never even published. I’d like to see what you’re refering to.

    ..”the chronic inflammation of the gut associated with many autistic children”

    Some autistic people have gut issues / allergies / food intolerances. Some people without autism have gut issues / allergies / food intolerances. There is no necessary link between gut issues and autism – I am yet to see a study establishing one (and I have seen a large study showing the idea that diet change improves autism to be a placebo effect). Yes there are very many autistic children, so if you look for ones with gut issues, you are going to find them.

    ..”Rather than attack one man, governments and medical establishments would be better off finding ANSWERS to the question of autism.”..

    Why do you think these are tasks which cannot both be performed? It is important to make it clear when “one man” has been fraudulent, causing preventable harm to millions. It is also important to find answers. It’s not like there’s one body out which does everything, and it’s chosen to attack Wakefield instead of find answers to autism. If anything is diverting funds from finding ansers to autism, it’s the people still insisting that Wakefield was right and requiring endless proof of otherwise(which they never accept anyway).

    ..”Drug companies are merely interested in profit, not solutions.”

    Change “drug companies” for “alternative medicine companies”, and you’d be right. At least drug companies products do what they claim to do.

    ..”Autistic children deserve our compassion and attention and their families NEED our help. But for the grace of god, there stands each and every one of YOU.”

    For the record, there DO go I. My son has classic autism. He was easy for the professionals to diagnose, it’s always been autism and only autism. Also for the record, he’s had it since birth – he never hit any of his developmental milestones and was always “different”, well before he had the MMR vaccine. And he has no gut issues or allergies or gluten intolerance.

    It is YOU who should think about the damage your views are doing, to parents like ME who shouldn’t have to keep dealing with these conspiracy theories and “ignorance” (an easy throw-away word you used quite a bit – be specific about the ignorance instead). Please do your research, and keep reading Respectful Ignorance too, you might just learn something :)

  44. #45 Autism & Oughtisms
    February 12, 2011

    Dinah:

    ..”Scientific Integrity demands following the principles of ethical research, taking a hypothosis through to its own natural conclussion and NOT trying to make the science fit the need or preconceived idea/ notion!”..

    But isn’t that exactly what you are doing – insisting that science is wrong because it doesn’t match your ideas of what it should be concluding, and ignoring what science has reliably shown time and time again (that Wakefield’s findings were incorrect)?

    ..”And, the study HAS been duplicated, ad nauseum, in the US, Japan and Australia in the years since Dr. Wakefields first paper hit the headlines.”

    Cite those studies. I’ve seen ample evidence that the studies which claimed to find a link were flawed in major ways, of very small smaples, or never even published. I’d like to see what you’re refering to.

    ..”the chronic inflammation of the gut associated with many autistic children”

    Some autistic people have gut issues / allergies / food intolerances. Some people without autism have gut issues / allergies / food intolerances. There is no necessary link between gut issues and autism – I am yet to see a study establishing one (and I have seen a large study showing the idea that diet change improves autism to be a placebo effect). Yes there are very many autistic children, so if you look for ones with gut issues, you are going to find them.

    ..”Rather than attack one man, governments and medical establishments would be better off finding ANSWERS to the question of autism.”..

    Why do you think these are tasks which cannot both be performed? It is important to make it clear when “one man” has been fraudulent, causing preventable harm to millions. It is also important to find answers. It’s not like there’s one body out which does everything, and it’s chosen to attack Wakefield instead of find answers to autism. If anything is diverting funds from finding ansers to autism, it’s the people still insisting that Wakefield was right and requiring endless proof of otherwise(which they never accept anyway).

    ..”Drug companies are merely interested in profit, not solutions.”

    Change “drug companies” for “alternative medicine companies”, and you’d be right. At least drug companies products do what they claim to do.

    ..”Autistic children deserve our compassion and attention and their families NEED our help. But for the grace of god, there stands each and every one of YOU.”

    For the record, there DO go I. My son has classic autism. He was easy for the professionals to diagnose, it’s always been autism and only autism. Also for the record, he’s had it since birth – he never hit any of his developmental milestones and was always “different”, well before he had the MMR vaccine. And he has no gut issues or allergies or gluten intolerance.

    It is YOU who should think about the damage your views are doing, to parents like ME who shouldn’t have to keep dealing with these conspiracy theories and “ignorance” (an easy throw-away word you used quite a bit – be specific about the ignorance instead). Please do your research, and keep reading Respectful Ignorance too, you might just learn something :)

  45. #46 Autism & Oughtisms
    February 12, 2011

    Dinah:

    ..”Scientific Integrity demands following the principles of ethical research, taking a hypothosis through to its own natural conclussion and NOT trying to make the science fit the need or preconceived idea/ notion!”..

    But isn’t that exactly what you are doing – insisting that science is wrong because it doesn’t match your ideas of what it should be concluding, and ignoring what science has reliably shown time and time again (that Wakefield’s findings were incorrect)?

    ..”And, the study HAS been duplicated, ad nauseum, in the US, Japan and Australia in the years since Dr. Wakefields first paper hit the headlines.”

    Cite those studies. I’ve seen ample evidence that the studies which claimed to find a link were flawed in major ways, of very small smaples, or never even published. I’d like to see what you’re refering to.

    ..”the chronic inflammation of the gut associated with many autistic children”

    Some autistic people have gut issues / allergies / food intolerances. Some people without autism have gut issues / allergies / food intolerances. There is no necessary link between gut issues and autism – I am yet to see a study establishing one (and I have seen a large study showing the idea that diet change improves autism to be a placebo effect). Yes there are very many autistic children, so if you look for ones with gut issues, you are going to find them.

    ..”Rather than attack one man, governments and medical establishments would be better off finding ANSWERS to the question of autism.”..

    Why do you think these are tasks which cannot both be performed? It is important to make it clear when “one man” has been fraudulent, causing preventable harm to millions. It is also important to find answers. It’s not like there’s one body out which does everything, and it’s chosen to attack Wakefield instead of find answers to autism. If anything is diverting funds from finding ansers to autism, it’s the people still insisting that Wakefield was right and requiring endless proof of otherwise(which they never accept anyway).

    ..”Drug companies are merely interested in profit, not solutions.”

    Change “drug companies” for “alternative medicine companies”, and you’d be right. At least drug companies products do what they claim to do.

    ..”Autistic children deserve our compassion and attention and their families NEED our help. But for the grace of god, there stands each and every one of YOU.”

    For the record, there DO go I. My son has classic autism. He was easy for the professionals to diagnose, it’s always been autism and only autism. Also for the record, he’s had it since birth – he never hit any of his developmental milestones and was always “different”, well before he had the MMR vaccine. And he has no gut issues or allergies or gluten intolerance.

    It is YOU who should think about the damage your views are doing, to parents like ME who shouldn’t have to keep dealing with these conspiracy theories and “ignorance” (an easy throw-away word you used quite a bit – be specific about the ignorance instead). Please do your research, and keep reading Respectful Ignorance too, you might just learn something :)

  46. #47 Autism & Oughtisms
    February 12, 2011

    Dinah:

    ..”Scientific Integrity demands following the principles of ethical research, taking a hypothosis through to its own natural conclussion and NOT trying to make the science fit the need or preconceived idea/ notion!”..

    But isn’t that exactly what you are doing – insisting that science is wrong because it doesn’t match your ideas of what it should be concluding, and ignoring what science has reliably shown time and time again (that Wakefield’s findings were incorrect)?

    ..”And, the study HAS been duplicated, ad nauseum, in the US, Japan and Australia in the years since Dr. Wakefields first paper hit the headlines.”

    Cite those studies. I’ve seen ample evidence that the studies which claimed to find a link were flawed in major ways, of very small smaples, or never even published. I’d like to see what you’re refering to.

    ..”the chronic inflammation of the gut associated with many autistic children”

    Some autistic people have gut issues / allergies / food intolerances. Some people without autism have gut issues / allergies / food intolerances. There is no necessary link between gut issues and autism – I am yet to see a study establishing one (and I have seen a large study showing the idea that diet change improves autism to be a placebo effect). Yes there are very many autistic children, so if you look for ones with gut issues, you are going to find them.

    ..”Rather than attack one man, governments and medical establishments would be better off finding ANSWERS to the question of autism.”..

    Why do you think these are tasks which cannot both be performed? It is important to make it clear when “one man” has been fraudulent, causing preventable harm to millions. It is also important to find answers. It’s not like there’s one body out which does everything, and it’s chosen to attack Wakefield instead of find answers to autism. If anything is diverting funds from finding ansers to autism, it’s the people still insisting that Wakefield was right and requiring endless proof of otherwise(which they never accept anyway).

    ..”Drug companies are merely interested in profit, not solutions.”

    Change “drug companies” for “alternative medicine companies”, and you’d be right. At least drug companies products do what they claim to do.

    ..”Autistic children deserve our compassion and attention and their families NEED our help. But for the grace of god, there stands each and every one of YOU.”

    For the record, there DO go I. My son has classic autism. He was easy for the professionals to diagnose, it’s always been autism and only autism. Also for the record, he’s had it since birth – he never hit any of his developmental milestones and was always “different”, well before he had the MMR vaccine. And he has no gut issues or allergies or gluten intolerance.

    It is YOU who should think about the damage your views are doing, to parents like ME who shouldn’t have to keep dealing with these conspiracy theories and “ignorance” (an easy throw-away word you used quite a bit – be specific about the ignorance instead). Please do your research, and keep reading Respectful Ignorance too, you might just learn something :)

  47. #48 Autism & Oughtisms
    February 12, 2011

    Dinah:

    ..”Scientific Integrity demands following the principles of ethical research, taking a hypothosis through to its own natural conclussion and NOT trying to make the science fit the need or preconceived idea/ notion!”..

    But isn’t that exactly what you are doing – insisting that science is wrong because it doesn’t match your ideas of what it should be concluding, and ignoring what science has reliably shown time and time again (that Wakefield’s findings were incorrect)?

    ..”And, the study HAS been duplicated, ad nauseum, in the US, Japan and Australia in the years since Dr. Wakefields first paper hit the headlines.”

    Cite those studies. I’ve seen ample evidence that the studies which claimed to find a link were flawed in major ways, of very small smaples, or never even published. I’d like to see what you’re refering to.

    ..”the chronic inflammation of the gut associated with many autistic children”

    Some autistic people have gut issues / allergies / food intolerances. Some people without autism have gut issues / allergies / food intolerances. There is no necessary link between gut issues and autism – I am yet to see a study establishing one (and I have seen a large study showing the idea that diet change improves autism to be a placebo effect). Yes there are very many autistic children, so if you look for ones with gut issues, you are going to find them.

    ..”Rather than attack one man, governments and medical establishments would be better off finding ANSWERS to the question of autism.”..

    Why do you think these are tasks which cannot both be performed? It is important to make it clear when “one man” has been fraudulent, causing preventable harm to millions. It is also important to find answers. It’s not like there’s one body out which does everything, and it’s chosen to attack Wakefield instead of find answers to autism. If anything is diverting funds from finding ansers to autism, it’s the people still insisting that Wakefield was right and requiring endless proof of otherwise(which they never accept anyway).

    ..”Drug companies are merely interested in profit, not solutions.”

    Change “drug companies” for “alternative medicine companies”, and you’d be right. At least drug companies products do what they claim to do.

    ..”Autistic children deserve our compassion and attention and their families NEED our help. But for the grace of god, there stands each and every one of YOU.”

    For the record, there DO go I. My son has classic autism. He was easy for the professionals to diagnose, it’s always been autism and only autism. Also for the record, he’s had it since birth – he never hit any of his developmental milestones and was always “different”, well before he had the MMR vaccine. And he has no gut issues or allergies or gluten intolerance.

    It is YOU who should think about the damage your views are doing, to parents like ME who shouldn’t have to keep dealing with these conspiracy theories and “ignorance” (an easy throw-away word you used quite a bit – be specific about the ignorance instead). Please do your research, and keep reading Respectful Ignorance too, you might just learn something :)

  48. #49 Autism & Oughtisms
    February 12, 2011

    Opps, that should have said “Respectful Insolence” not “Respectful Ignorance”! I read the word “ignorance” so often in Dinah’s comment that it just slipped in there. Also, it’s early on a Sunday morning. I have excuses :D

  49. #50 Autism & Oughtisms
    February 12, 2011

    Opps, that should have said “Respectful Insolence” not “Respectful Ignorance”! I read the word “ignorance” so often in Dinah’s comment that it just slipped in there. Also, it’s early on a Sunday morning. I have excuses :D

  50. #51 Autism & Oughtisms
    February 12, 2011

    Opps, that should have said “Respectful Insolence” not “Respectful Ignorance”! I read the word “ignorance” so often in Dinah’s comment that it just slipped in there. Also, it’s early on a Sunday morning. I have excuses :D

  51. #52 Autism & Oughtisms
    February 12, 2011

    Opps, that should have said “Respectful Insolence” not “Respectful Ignorance”! I read the word “ignorance” so often in Dinah’s comment that it just slipped in there. Also, it’s early on a Sunday morning. I have excuses :D

  52. #53 Autism & Oughtisms
    February 12, 2011

    Opps, that should have said “Respectful Insolence” not “Respectful Ignorance”! I read the word “ignorance” so often in Dinah’s comment that it just slipped in there. Also, it’s early on a Sunday morning. I have excuses :D

  53. #54 a-non
    February 12, 2011

    Dr. Gordon,

    First off, you want us to believe an article written by a person who doesn’t believe Shaken Baby Syndrome exists?

    Secondly, let’s look a little more closely at the HPA data, and not just the table Yazback refers to. I assume this is going to hit comment moderation, which is ok due to the number of links:

    http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733811358

    Look at the numbers in the 1996-97 timeframe, and compare them to today. Notice that the number of confirmed cases per quarter is considerably higher now than it was 15 years ago?

    How about the chart that shows that MMR coverage declined preciptiously in the early part of the 2000’s and is just now recovering? And then compare that to the charts presented above.

    http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733819251

    And it ain’t just measles that we’re worried about, Dr. Gordon.

    Mumps:
    http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733790975

    If you want to argue that Andrew Wakefield wasn’t the primary cause of this phenomenon in the U.K., fine. I don’t think you can do that based on his prominent position as an opponent of the MMR vaccine and his notoriety, but at least that would be more intellectually honest than Yazbak’s inane argument that somehow measles and mumps incidence didn’t rise in the U.K. over the last decade. But it sure as heck did.

    I’d post this on AoA, but the likelihood the post would ever make it through their moderation is about the same as you ever admitting that you’re wrong when it comes to this topic.

  54. #55 dedicated lurker
    February 12, 2011

    Dr Jay, has your spine snapped from the contortions you engage in on a regular basis to not have a definative opinion on the subject of vaccines?

  55. #56 Science Mom
    February 12, 2011

    Help from all assembled: Not your favorite website, but are the data in this article completely wrong? Thanks for your comments

    Awww, how cute, Dr. Jay and the AoA ignorati try to do epidemiology. No, Dr. Jay, the figures aren’t wrong but the sad/funny part is how you and they are trying to interpret them without some crucial information to anchor that information. The triple jab was introduced to the UK in 1988, then the second dose in 1996. Now take a look at what the measles cases did prior to 1998. Now look at post 1998 when it took a few years for the number of measles jab uptake to decline and breaks in herd immunity to occur.

  56. #57 lilady
    February 12, 2011

    Yeah, I’ve been slumming at the H-P site and I posted twice on this latest fiction blog of David Kirby. I’ve noticed some very interesting “push back” posts on the blog from people such as “Sheldon 101″ regarding Kirby’s veiled support of Wakefield, including his statement that the parents whose children were part of the Wakefield study were not permitted to testify at the Wakefield hearing; totally discredited by Sheldon 101.

    Regarding Kirby’s statement “My motive has never been to “blame vaccines”, I have no personal reason whatsoever to oppose them and little to gain–believe me”, I posted a challenge to him to reveal the amount of money he has derived from the sale of his book, through the Macmillan Speaker’s Bureau, and other fees he charges for public speaking gigs when he lectures on the autism-vaccine link. He continually makes reference to scientists/physicians financial links with pharmaceutical companies…which are divulged in journal articles and whenever they lecture at vaccine symposiums, but has failed to disclose how he has made money from his books and lectures linking autism to childhood immunizations.

    BTW, the blog “The Autism -Vaccine Debate: Why It Won’t Go Away” is part I, part II is scheduled for publication on the H-P at a later date.

  57. #58 Rene Najera
    February 12, 2011

    Dr. Jay and the AoA crew doing epidemiology is like me floating in the air without any kind of assistance. I mean, it can be done, but it would require the suspension of all laws of the universe (or a miracle, like magnets).

  58. #59 Science Mom
    February 12, 2011

    Oh and Dr. Jay, why didn’t your mates publish the 2008 and 2009 measles cases? Incidentally, they are 5088 and 5191 respectively. Still feeling smug there Jay? Hint for you, don’t rely upon equally scientifically-ignorant people for your information; it will save you a lot of embarrassment.

    Just saying.

  59. #60 Gopiballava
    February 12, 2011

    I only clicked Post once! Honest! I moved out of WiFi to 3G only, and apparently my browser tried again automagically or something. I wonder if timeouts on desktop browsers do the same thing.

  60. #61 Paul
    February 12, 2011

    For Jay Gordon, here’s a graph that makes the Wakefield Effect a little clearer: http://goo.gl/q8PQc

    To quote Ernst and Singh in ‘Trick or Treatment’ (p266), “While measles is merely an inconvenience for most families, it will cause ear infections for 1 in 20 children, respiratory problems for 1 in 25, convulsions for 1 in 200, meningitis or encephalitis for 1 in 1,000, and death for 1 in 5,000 children.”

  61. #62 Dangerous Bacon
    February 12, 2011

    A-non: “Dr. Gordon,

    First off, you want us to believe an article written by a person who doesn’t believe Shaken Baby Syndrome exists?”

    He also wants us to believe an antivax fringe pediatrician (Dr. Yazbak, who, like Jay trumpets his FAAP status as though that gives him credibility) who’s featured on Barbara Loe Fisher’s NVIC website with the claim that he’s “conducted research” into regressive autism and “published extensively” on the subject, also serving as a witness in litigation. Oddly, I have great difficulty via PubMed finding any significant research contributions by Dr. Yazbak, apart from stuff like letters written to medical journals and papers published in the fluff journal “Medical Hypotheses”. But this is the kind of “science” Jay Gordon eats up.

    As to Yazbak’s measles “data”, it’s previously been pointed out that he jiggered his statistics – claiming that measles cases in the U.K. dropped after Wakefield’s Lancet paper was published, but achieved that finding by incorporating large numbers of measles cases occurring in the U.K. as far back as 1988, when the MMR vaccine first began to be used.

    This is the same sort of creative epidemiology used to claim that vaccines did not vastly decrease or eradicate infectious diseases. Maybe Jay believes those graphs too.

    Speaking of blasted irony meters, if Jay wants the vaccine “controversy” to die down so we can discuss More Important Things, why keep stirring it up with drive-by nonsense?

  62. #63 JohnV
    February 12, 2011

    @Dr. Gordon

    Since you purport to be in favor of civility I thought you might like to know that going to a person’s blog and telling him what to blog about is extremely uncivil.

    I’m assuming you just didn’t know this and it’s not another example of “do as I say not do as I do”.

  63. #64 G.Shelley
    February 12, 2011

    I see the “repeated many times” claim many times. I wonder if people who make this claim just repeat it mindlessly, or if they investigate it and still manage to believe it,

  64. #65 Jay Gordon
    February 12, 2011

    Just asking a question, that’s all. Wondered how the graphs looked to you.

    I appreciate your responses and will have another look. I realize that Dr. Yazbak writes with a particular point of view and was very interested in how others with a diametrically opposing POVs saw the data he presents. You are completely correct in assuming I lack sufficient epidemiology training to easily interpret data like this without help. I’ll look again with a more critical eye this time

    JohnV, silly comment. I really think that vaccines don’t warrant the attention given here and elsewhere. Love to see the scientific muscle on display here discussing nutritional ignorance prevalent in the medical community. That would be fun.

    Best,

    Jay

  65. #66 sharon
    February 12, 2011

    ASD and ADD/ADHD are two separate diagnosis. The two can present simulatneously. But should not be merged as a single dx.

    I am perplexed by Dinah’s claim “an illness they were not born with”. First I take issue with the term illness, secondly her knowledge of ASD is clearly limited. My son was born Autistic. Secondly he has no gut issues. He requires no medication, so big pharma don’t make a dime from his condition. And he is fully vaccinated. Didn’t have even the smallest reaction to them by the way.

    AS she doesnt seem to have an ASD child one has to wonder why she is getting her knickers into such a twist over Wakefield and his detractors. If anyone should be pissed off it’s those of us who have had to defend our choice to vaccinate our kids, who have had to patiently argue against the crazy misinformation being spread, both about immunisation and ASD. Who have to endure the anger and frustration of watching those who ride the ASD gravy train for personal gain, and then retreat to their Autism free homes.

  66. #67 Adrian W.
    February 12, 2011

    Dr. Gordon may be the world’s largest source of weapons-grade projection. The UN should do something before some nation we don’t like gets their hands on him.

  67. #68 skeptifem
    February 12, 2011

    sastra

    No, it doesn’t. I mean, even if you assume that drug companies and medical research facilities are filled with heartless monsters only in it for the money, I can’t even make sense of the idea that this would mean they would not want to make a ground-breaking discovery that would make them, personally, rich because … it comes at the cost of hurting the other heartless money-grubbing monsters?

    Its not about the people in it, its about the structure of the system people navigate. Corporations are very sociopathic, and drug companies do some really horrible things. That does not lead to the conclusion that vaccines do not work though, or that drug companies have to cook up conspiracies to make people sick.

    its true that they would make a lot more money off of treatments than a cure, but its unlikely that a cure for all cancer will ever be discovered. It is a very diverse disease. When someone undergoes treatment and is free of the disease, was it cured? Well, maybe, but cancer comes back a lot. People don’t ever say theres a cure for thyroid cancer, but the vast majority of thyroid cancers that need treatment are taken care of by cheap pharmaceutical means (or relatively simply surgical procedures). There are also vaccines that prevent many cervical cancers, and they are sold to people in the general public. Its already a huge complex problem, I don’t think that anything legally risky needs to be attempted to make it worse for a profit motive. There is plenty of cancer to go around.

  68. #69 ausduck
    February 12, 2011

    Wakefield’s study was replicated in Australia as well?

    News to me there, Dinah, a citation would be nice.

    And no, anything from Meryl Dorey/AVN does not count either.
    The only way his study was replicated in Australia is if you substitute ‘replicated’ for the original being linked, copypasted, and promoted as gospel through the antivax dogma that abounds with Meryl and her merry band of anti-vax acolytes.

  69. #70 Science Mom
    February 12, 2011

    Just asking a question, that’s all. Wondered how the graphs looked to you.

    Hmm, the ‘just askin’ gambit.

    I appreciate your responses and will have another look. I realize that Dr. Yazbak writes with a particular point of view and was very interested in how others with a diametrically opposing POVs saw the data he presents.

    You are pandering to an overtly dishonest, anti-vaxx conspiracy theorist. Why? And if you doubt the dishonest part and choose instead to believe he is just mistaken, you can easily prove this to yourself. Comment there about what those tables actually infer and I’ll even give you some additional numbers; there was an almost 96% decline in measles cases from 1988-1998 but a 28% increase from 1998 to 2009. This not only directly coincides with a decrease in measles vaccine uptake, but is the highest number of cases than in the preceding 13 years. Now see if they post your comment and don’t dogpile you and if they make an addendum to the post.

  70. #71 Matthew Cline
    February 12, 2011

    @Jay Gordon:

    Seriously, with so many other incredibly important topics to discuss and the very tenuous connection of “antivax” rhetoric to disease incidence, why not leave this alone for a few months??

    Wait, are you saying:

    1) The people claiming vaccines cause autism had/have very little to do with the decrease in vaccine uptake?

    or

    2) The level of vaccine uptake has very little to do with the incidence of disease?

  71. #72 Matthew Cline
    February 12, 2011

    @Science Mom:

    I wonder if Dinah would be so kind as to share these alleged duplicated studies.

    She was asked after her first comment, and didn’t cite a single one in her second comment, so, no, she wouldn’t be so kind.

    @amphiox:

    And since vaccines do not cure, but prevent, … then Big Pharma ought to be running away from vaccines like lemmings, screaming in terror.

    That’s probably one of the reasons people like her doubt the effectiveness of vaccines: if vaccines did work, Big Pharma wouldn’t make them, so since Big Pharma makes vaccines, they must not work.

  72. #73 Prometheus
    February 12, 2011

    “Dr. Jay” comes back with the “just asking” excuse for pushing Yazbak’s excreble excuse for “research”. How predictable. Then he gets amusing:

    “I really think that vaccines don’t warrant the attention given here and elsewhere.”

    Well, “Dr. Jay”, I guess the simple solution would be for you to get AoA and all the rest of the “vaccines-cause-autism” loonies to stop bringing it up. Oh, and I guess you’ll need to do a little self-censorship, as well.

    But that’s not all…

    “Love to see the scientific muscle on display here discussing nutritional ignorance prevalent in the medical community.”

    Try using the “search” feature; you’ll find that Orac has covered the “nutritional ignorance prevalent in the medical community”, in particular the laughable claims that “proper” nutrition can cure cancer and the concept of “optimal health” through the use of eccentric (and scientifically unsupported) nutritional regimens.

    Of course, “Dr. Jay” could always put together his own website or ‘blog and discuss all the things he’s always whining for Orac to write about.

    Maybe its just me, but “Dr. Jay” always seems to come out with his “Don’t you have better things to do?” scold whenever we’re discussing something he’d rather we not pay attention to. Just like his “civility” whine whenever we’re asking him to provide support for his ludicrous claims and his “Nothing to see here, folks – move along!” schtick abut Wakefield.

    Seriously, “Dr. Jay” – if you’re worried about people wasting their time and talents on worthless pursuits, why don’t you go over to one of the “World of Warcraft” ‘blogs?

    Just asking…

    Prometheus

  73. #74 Boojum
    February 12, 2011

    Dr. Yazbak-“Trying to make sense of the number and percentage of confirmed measles cases in the UK since 1998 is a challenge.”

    Read-The massive increase in confirmed cases of measles post-Wakefield doesn’t support my theory at all. Hence I will wave my hands around, and focus on the fact that the number of reported cases has not increasing substantially.

  74. #75 Matthew Cline
    February 12, 2011

    The massive increase in confirmed cases of measles post-Wakefield doesn’t support my theory at all. Hence I will wave my hands around, and focus on the fact that the number of reported cases has not increasing substantially.

    Huh. Why would the number of confirmed cases show a much larger increase than the number of reported cases?

  75. #76 LW
    February 12, 2011

    “Huh. Why would the number of confirmed cases show a much larger increase than the number of reported cases?”

    Because doctors have recently become personally familiar with the symptoms of measles, whereas previously it was something they only knew about from books, and so they are less likely to misdiagnose something else as measles?

  76. #77 KWombles
    February 12, 2011

    If that’s really Dr. Jay, posting (doesn’t he usually sign with the full MD FAAP?), it seems really weird that he’d recommend moving on from vaccines when he’s promoting his own vaccination dvd on his website (the official dvd website link is broken): http://drjaygordon.com/vaccinations-dvd

  77. #78 sidhe3141
    February 12, 2011

    Not even going to try the drinking game on this one.
    But it does demand a response.

    Autistic children deserve our compassion and attention and their families NEED our help. But for the grace of god, there stands each and every one of YOU.

    Dinah, I believe that I speak for the majority of Aspies when I say that you show far less compassion for us, nay, for all individuals on the autism spectrum, when you make this point than any pro-vaccine physician. You insist on claiming that we are in some way “broken beyond repair”, when in fact we are not broken, and there are ways of compensating for most (if not all) of our skill deficits. There are ways that do not involve drugs, as you seem to think that all scientific medicine does, but rather procedures grounded firmly in accepted (tested, peer-reviewed, demonstrated-to-actually-work) psychology. When you claim that we must be somehow “cured”, you reveal that you cannot differentiate between a disease and a part of a person.

    Oh, and you misused “there but for the grace of god”. See, what that means is that the “grace of God” is the only thing keeping the circumstance in question from happening. So, when you say that “[to compassionate treatment of autistics] but for the grace of god go [scientists]”, what you’re saying is that God would not want autistics treated well. While there are several parts of the Bible that would support that attitude, I’m pretty sure that it’s not what you meant.

  78. #79 LW
    February 12, 2011

    “If that’s really Dr. Jay, posting (doesn’t he usually sign with the full MD FAAP?), it seems really weird that he’d recommend moving on from vaccines when he’s promoting his own vaccination dvd on his website”

    Not at ll. He wants rational people to “move on” and stop contradicting him, so he can sell more DVDs. You notice he doesn’t suggest that anti-vaxxers should “move on”.

  79. #80 KWombles
    February 12, 2011

    http://www.amazon.com/Vaccinations-Dr-Jay-Gordon/dp/B0013MELE0 Has Dr. Jay listed as an actor. I found that interesting.

    Let me just throw out there, though, who one would trust more (let’s say we don’t know Dr. Jay’s predilections)? Dr. Jay on a DVD or any of Dr. Paul Offit’s books on vaccines? A Hollywood pediatrician or an infectious disease expert? Dr. Jay or the doctor who co-authored with Stanley Plotkin and Walter Orenstein a textbook, Vaccines, which is its fifth edition? Oh, the decisions!

  80. #81 Matthew Cline
    February 12, 2011
    Huh. Why would the number of confirmed cases show a much larger increase than the number of reported cases?

    Because doctors have recently become personally familiar with the symptoms of measles, whereas previously it was something they only knew about from books, and so they are less likely to misdiagnose something else as measles?

    What I meant to ask was: if there’s an X% increase in measles incidence, then shouldn’t both confirmed and reported cases of measles increase by roughly X%?

  81. #82 LW
    February 12, 2011

    “What I meant to ask was: if there’s an X% increase in measles incidence, then shouldn’t both confirmed and reported cases of measles increase by roughly X%?”

    No, not if the number of false positives is going down (doctors now know the symptoms and are less like to misdiagnose) while the number of true positives is going up (there really are more cases of measles). That’s what I meant to convey.

  82. #83 Matthew Cline
    February 12, 2011

    @LW:

    No, not if the number of false positives is going down (doctors now know the symptoms and are less like to misdiagnose) while the number of true positives is going up (there really are more cases of measles).

    But in that case wouldn’t the number of reported cases (reported by parents, presumably) increase more than the number of confirmed cases, since the among the reported cases there’d be no decrease in false positives?

  83. #84 LW
    February 12, 2011

    Why wouldn’t there be a decrease in the number of false positives among the reported cases? I was expecting there would be.

    Maybe my using the term “false positives” was confusing. I was focusing on whether the cases were correctly reported, not whether they were correctly confirmed. So by false positives, I meant cases that were *reported* as measles which were not in fact measles and were not confirmed as measles; I did not mean cases that were falsely *confirmed* as measles.

    If the number of true positives (real cases of measles reported and probably also confirmed) went up, but the number of false positives (misdiagnosed cases that were reported but were not confirmed) went down, you’d have an increase in confirmed cases, and the number of reported cases might not increase as much, or might even decrease.

    But I’m merely speculating in answer to the question, “Why would the number of confirmed cases show a much larger increase than the number of reported cases?”

  84. #85 Boojum
    February 13, 2011

    In Britain if there is any suspicion of measles then the doctor reports the case and an oral fluid IgM antibody test is run to confirm or rule out measles. Historically (mid to late 90’s) only about 2% of reported cases tested positive for measles, while in resent years (2006 onwards) it has been around 20%.

    So for example in 1996 there were 5614 reported cases but only 112 were confirmed, we’re in the ballpark of about 150 actual cases. While in 2009 there were 5263 reported cases, with 1144 confirmed as measles, about a ten fold increase in cases.

    For the years he tracks the percentage of reported cases that were actually due to measles would be well less then 10%, while the number of reported cases each year bounces around like a tennis ball increasing by more the 10,000 cases from 1993-1994 for example. Any association between the two is lost in the noise.

  85. #86 Matthew Cline
    February 13, 2011

    @Boojum:

    while the number of reported cases each year bounces around like a tennis ball

    Ah! That explains it. I was assuming that the yearly reported and confirmed cases were both pretty much constant prior to the decrease in vaccine uptake, then both underwent increases, but the percent increase for reported cases was significantly less than for confirmed cases.

    Any association between the two is lost in the noise.

    Yeah, it seems like with anti-vaxxers skill with statistics is either non-existent or is only used for twisting the numbers around.

  86. #87 Dinah Everett Snyder
    February 13, 2011

    Would that I could be flattered…wait !
    I am,you wrote about me…and can’t stop….
    I never realized that I would get under your skin to such a degree….you should take a pill for that !

    Could it be that Natural News shaking your tree excites you into such a lather that you cannot help but call me back?
    tsk tsk….here I am then oh vapid one….

    In reply to sidhe3141 ” Aspies, broken beyond repair”.
    I am so sorry that you would have interpretted my post thus. I WAS referring to the broad spectrum of autistic children that are enormously impacted by their affliction.
    The children that are locked away in their own world, unable to speak perhaps, or unwilling. The children who cannot make eye contact or control their own bowel fuctions. The children who are too scared to eat because of the pain of contact between the food and their throat, or the pain of processing food internally, or the pain of bowel movements containing certain foods…the ones that lash out with their arms or anything that they can find. There is a broad range of afflictions, hence the word ” spectrum”.
    I have met autistic children who sqeeze themselves into a corner,and I have met autistic children who can even allow me to hug them. I have met autistic children who cannot hold a pen, and others who paint of wonderous things.

    Aspies ARE high functioning and intruiging ( and YES folks, I do have one) and not a day goes by that I am not touched by his soul…his sense of humor and his endless questions about many many things. There is a wonderful book for you to read, ” Awakening your childs Natural genius. Neurodiversity-” culture of disabilities” need to focus on strengths of neuro diverse children. by Thomas Armstrong, a Prof at SSU. This is a particularly good direction for reading material for parents of high functioning autism spectrum children BECAUSE schools in particular are ill adapted to accomodate the needs of these children. For example, when the child cannot sit still, fiddles, fidgets or taps ( common unconscious movements) the child is labelled ” difficult/ distracting/inattentive” and is unduly singled out. While it is against the law for teachers to TELL a parent that their child needs to be medictaed, believe me that the staff innuendo is rabid, and the pressure is intense. It is also true that when one has a low academic achiever there are more resources available as opposed to when one has a high academic achiever who falls within the autism spectrum. Again, schools are not well equipped to deal with a tapping, drumming, squirmy child who is both ” autism spectrum” and academically high achieving, yet lacks peer social skills or cannot tie their laces. School is either or, with no middle ground. Either special ed, or mainstream. Either sit still…or medicate.
    Disclaimer: my aspie has never been on meds from pharma thank you, no thanks.

    Now, I notice that NO ONE has posted a comment about Gardasil OR the Flu vaccine….everyone is far too busy disseminating the MMR/ Wakefield comments and philandering my last post for no good reason other than to one up each other. And high five each other in a show off…such an archaic male gesture.

    To recap: Gardasil is supposed to be the anti cancer vaccine…however it only guards against 3 of the multiple strains that by and large occur naturally, and resolve of their own accord ( oh I know ye all are going to have fun ripping into that one) HOWEVER, Gardasil was only tested on 15 year olds and older, yet the FDA approved it for use in girls as young as 9……feel free to comment here……
    DESPITE a very LARGE number of adverse reactions reported ( remember that less than 10% are reported, therefore take note of how large the REPORTED number of adverse reactions is…) you may even want to check out this on your own

    http://www.thetruthaboutgardesil.org

    FDA went ahead and approved Gardasil for use in boys as young as 9…to guard against genital warts and anal cancer, even though anal cancer is rare. Very rare.
    And the side effects are staggering and frankly not worth the associated risks, at this time.
    But the makers of Gardasil NEED to fill their sales quotas folks, after all, business is business, and sales are down…..India has halted all use of Gardasil, UK is following with depressed numbers and globally, governments are being far more cautious with this new vaccine. In the US though, it is full steam ahead, boys and girls…

    For the record, I never ONCE claimed to be anti vaccines….
    rather, I am an advocate of SAFE vaccines.

    I chose to pay out of pocket ( and wait for 3 months) in order to have the individual shots of measles, mumps and rubella….many cannot afford to do this. Doctors are unwilling to order it and in many cases they cannot. In the UK for example it is not possible to get the individual shots, therefore, parents have 2 choices…get the MMR as a combination shot…or don’t vaccinate the child.

    The current vaccination schedule approved by CDC and FDA is, to be frank, an abomination and they themselves have admitted that vaccines are given as combinations and in groups in order to make sure that it is not a burden on the mother ( all those individual trips to the pediatritions office….note I am rolling my eyes)
    Parents who have infants that are neurologically premature, that is, despite being full term behave much like preterm babies, should be advised to hold off on the one month and three month schedule, perhaps even the 6 month ones….
    most especially they should not be given a hep shot before even leaving the hospital ! Hepatitis, a newborn? give me a break ! Again, CDC and FDA admits that this is perhaps a bit ” overzealous”, then go on to say that it is done to ensure that ” at risk groups” who would not be reliable in bringing babies to a clinic for scheduled shots, would at least have ” that bit of added protection”. In English, that means that because some drug addict with a baby may be unreliable about vaccinations ( and prick the baby with a Hep virus carrying needle (?) ) that ALL babies need to be vaccinated against Hep before they leave the hospital….
    My concern, therefore is this broad, sweeping ” one size fits all” vaccination schedule.
    My concern, therefore, is this rush to make everything oh so convenient without addressing individual needs, on any level.

    My greatest concern is the lack of scientific testing and long term vigilance, the rush to market of many of the vaccines, namely Gardasil…and the Flu vaccine. This year the fllu vaccine is a combination shot, against multiple strains of fllu virus. Again, there has been an extremely large caseload of adverse reactions reported, with a concerning number of miscarriages linked to the flu vaccine. I would also like to point out that the Flu vaccine suspension liquid is 50% by volume mercury….

    This is not a conspiracy theory, these are facts available on the gvt adverse reports website and other sites… They may have got the basic flu vaccine right, but suddenly including multiple strains changes the dynamic somewhat wouldn’t you say.
    Here is an analogy for you:
    if you mix soda water and …(pick something to add)
    ….the drink will have a more or less expected taste…if you add 2, 3, 4 or 5 things to the soda water then the outcame may be rather UNEXPECTED….
    well, perhaps one may think of vaccines the same way. And until one spends the time in the lab doing the relevant testing, one cannot for sure guarantee the outcome.

    Which is what has happened.

    So again, a broad recap before you go off and isolate one grain of what I have said to spend hours examining ad nauseum…
    I am not anti vacccinations…..I am pro SAFE vaccinations.
    I am pro individual injections of vaccinations.
    I want the studies to be honest and to reflect what they claim …don’t test vaccines on a 15 year old and tell a parent that it is safe for a nine year old !!!
    Don’t test a medication in a 5 week clinical trial and then make the medication available as a long term treatment plan.
    Here I speak specifically of medications such as Ritalin.
    And NEVER approve a medication until the ” mechanism for the treatment success” has been established …if not conclusively then at least to have been established as safe….for long term use. Again I speak of drugs for ADHD, ADD etc. These are, in most cases, highly addictive narcotic combinations…not some inert product.

    Something else, an EKG used to be required for a child before a stimulant medication could be prescribed. No longer. Now doctors may prescribe at will……no testing for underlying conditions required.FDA and CDC and the Medical Board say an EKG is not needed before putting a child on narcotics for long term use.

    Well, here is a real story: a young boy was not doing as well on his current stimulant meds due to hormonal changes…this had been his medication for 5 years….
    without a break. The doctor decided to not only change the meds but to significantly increase the dose ( the idea was to start high, then decrease if needed)…let me say here that the boy was autistic, but fuctioning independantly,
    not long after the change in his medications however he was no longer ” functioning independantly”…..he had a massive stroke as a result of the medications and is now confined to a wheel chair, unable to do even simple things for himself, and has lost his ability to speak. He is 13.
    And yes, it was a result of the new meds which had given him chest pains, and which the doctor claimed were ” normal in the first little while of adjusting to the new meds”.

    Perhaps an EKG would have picked up something…perhaps not…
    we will never know now though if this could have been prevented. Will we? Hint: The appropriate answer here is NO…we won’t ever know because an EKG is no longer required.

    There you go, gremlins on this most nefarious of sites…
    run along and disseminate at will…

    and to sidhe3141, a hug .

    Dinah Everett Snyder.
    author of: “FDA; CrimesAgainstHumanity” coming end of 2011

  87. #88 Boojum
    February 13, 2011

    There is a broad downwards trend in reported cases from introduction of MMR (which coincidentally stops around 1998…..) but reported cases are pretty level from 1998 onwards so Yazbak argues there hasn’t been an increase in Measles ‘Post-Wakefield’ as he calls it. It’s pretty disingenuous though to make comments like this-

    There were 188,483 reported measles cases in the ten years preceding the Wakefield paper compared to 28,289 cases in the following ten years, an 85% decrease.

    Without mentioning the reason the “Pre-Wakefield” figures are so much higher is because MMR was only introduced in ’88.

  88. #89 Matthew Cline
    February 13, 2011

    @Dinah Everett Snyder:

    I never realized that I would get under your skin to such a degree

    You don’t have to get under Orac’s skin (or plexiglass) to have a post about you, you just have to amuse him.

    To recap: Gardasil is supposed to be the anti cancer vaccine…however it only guards against 3 of the multiple strains that by and large occur naturally,

    1) ALL strains of HPV are naturally occuring, since neither of the current HPV vaccines use attenuated viruses.

    2) Those three strains are the ones most likely to cause cancer.

    and resolve of their own accord

    Most HPV infections clear on their own accord. Some infections, however, are persistent, which are the ones which can lead to cancer.

    I chose to pay out of pocket ( and wait for 3 months) in order to have the individual shots of measles, mumps and rubella

    So you think that being exposed to the three different attenuated viruses at once leads (somehow) to the measles infection becoming persistent/chronic? I mean, I’d guess so, since you claim that Wakefield’s research has been replicated a bunch of times.

    Speaking of that, do you have citations for Wakefield’s research being replicated?

    The current vaccination schedule approved by CDC and FDA is, to be frank, an abomination

    If you don’t trust the FDA and CDC when it comes to the vaccine schedule, then why do you trust them when it comes to the individual vaccines like the monovalent (single virus/bacteria) vaccines you said you got your children? Or is there some other reason you trust that the effectiveness is high enough and the risks low enough for the monovalent vaccines?

    Hepatitis, a newborn? give me a break !

    While sex and needle sharing are the most common means of transmission for hepatitis, it’s not the only means of transmission. Babies and children can catch it through far more innocuous means.

    My concern, therefore is this broad, sweeping ” one size fits all” vaccination schedule.
    My concern, therefore, is this rush to make everything oh so convenient without addressing individual needs, on any level.

    Something better than “one size fits all” would be great, but we don’t yet have the medical knowledge to implement it, to tailor the vaccine schedule to individuals.

    They may have got the basic flu vaccine right, but suddenly including multiple strains changes the dynamic somewhat wouldn’t you say

    Wait. You’d approve of a mutli-strain vaccine if there was enough research, yet in spite of the clinical trials that MMR went through, and the decades of post-market surveillance, you oppose it and think it should be split up into three separate vaccines? Do you claim that it’s not possible to do enough research to determine if a multi-pathogen vaccine is safe? Or that multi-pathogen vaccines are inherently dangerous?

  89. #90 the bug guy
    February 13, 2011

    @79: After reading through a Borg Cube of text that brings up numerous arguments that have been completely addressed in the past, I have to say, “Yawn.”

    Please, do you really think that nobody has brought up those common antivax talking points before and that we haven’t addressed them?

    Are you so arrogant that you think that you are really educating us?

    Oh, and we’ve seen the “SAFE vaccine” smokescreen before. We’re not buying it.

    But then, you’ve joined a long line of commenters that have done basically the same thing. Show up and repeat tired old tidbits of misinformation as if they were something new and groundbreaking.

    I encourage you to read through this blog, and associated blogs like Science Based Medicine, searching for each of your points. Read the responses and if possible, take the time to go to the primary literature often provided to see the actual research.

    Turn your enthusiasm to a direction that will help, and not continue on a course that leads nowhere.

  90. #91 Matthew Cline
    February 13, 2011

    @Dinah Everett Snyder:

    For the record, I never ONCE claimed to be anti vaccines….
    rather, I am an advocate of SAFE vaccines.

    Since you understated the effectiveness of the HPV vaccine (saying it only covered three strains, while ignoring that they’re the strains most likely to cause cancer), and understated the danger of HPV (saying that HPV infections clear of their own accord, implying that we shouldn’t be as concerned about it as we are), I’m having a hard time believing that you’re not anti-vaccine.

  91. #92 Dinah Everett Snyder
    February 13, 2011

    EX CUSE me…. you say, ” something better than “one size fits all” would be great but we don’t yet have the medical knowledge to implement it…to tailor the vaccine schedule to individuals”…

    THAT is your reply?

    I am GAGGING at the utter ridiculousness of that statement….

    Further, I believe that I made it fairly clear in my post that I do not believe that multi strain vaccines are inherently safe. I believe in the idea of a potential and possible system overload.
    For example this happens too when a pathogen overwhelms the body causing multi organ failure…it is a system overload… simplistic example but suitable to the company.

    Keep at it gremlins, one grain, one grain, one grain, gosh don’t you want to move on from this already….must be terminally monotonous out on that railroad waiting for Dinahs horn.

    oh, and for the record, Bill Gates endorsement of something….anything…..should not influence ANYONE one way or the other. Mac, schmac or PC….
    Bill Gates…who is he again….
    Is he the guy whose foundation gave $35 million to ……. a while back for …..vaccines…womans health….the words on the header don’t matter…what is rather interesting is the relationship MICROSOFT had with the ……… regarding concerns over ……. and other related software conundrums. Has anyone noticed how well Microsoft and ….. get along? okay, that brings me to the BOTTOM line….
    because I also happened to notice that ……. did not QUITE fit the beneficiary needs outlined to have received that $35 million…..what the heck…it’s just money, and half of it was Warren Buffets anyway!

    sigh.

    Dinah Everett Snyder.

  92. #93 Candy
    February 13, 2011

    Dinah: You still have not addressed the requests for links to all of the many studies you allege exist replicating Waker’s research.

    The bug guy is giving you excellent advice; you should really consider following it.

  93. #94 MI Dawn
    February 13, 2011

    Hi, Dinah. So, since you’ve written a book and all, you know about references. Where are all your references to your accusations? Where are your proofs that monovalent vaccines are safer, that Wakefield’s studies have been replicated, that vaccines AREN’T followed and monitored for many years after they are initiated? You don’t have to write a lot; as Chris has noted above, simply give us the Medline title and number and we’ll happily do the rest of the work. You DO have that information to support your words, right?

    (going out to brunch. Let me know if anything but crickets arise, OK, fellow Pharma Shills?)

  94. #95 Matthew Cline
    February 13, 2011

    @Dinah Everett Snyder:

    THAT is your reply?
    I am GAGGING at the utter ridiculousness of that statement….

    How is it ridiculous? Please explain.

    Further, I believe that I made it fairly clear in my post that I do not believe that multi strain vaccines are inherently safe.

    Then why was the clinical trials and post-market surveillance for MMR not enough to determine if it’s safe or not? How much more research into safety does a multivalent vaccine need over a monovalent vaccine?

    (Also, to nitpick, a multi-strain vaccine is different than a multi-species vaccine.)

    I believe in the idea of a potential and possible system overload.
    For example this happens too when a pathogen overwhelms the body causing multi organ failure…it is a system overload

    You’re going to have to define what you mean by “system overload”, at least when caused by pathogens. Is any symptom an overload? Anything that causes permanent damage? What?

    Also, are you referring to immune system overload? If so, is it the same as or different than what happens when an immunocompromised is infected by a pathogen? If different, how do they differ?

    simplistic example but suitable to the company.

    “I have a detailed argument as to why we should be wary of multivalent vaccines, but you’re all to stupid to understand it, so you’ll just have to trust me on it.”

    Oh, and finally: would you please provide citations for the studies which duplicated Wakefield’s findings? If there’s so many of these studies it shouldn’t be hard to cite just a handful.

  95. #96 Candy
    February 13, 2011

    MI Dawn, she probably doesn’t know anything about references. She certainly doesn’t understand appropriate use of ellipses or how to correctly indicate emphasis. I hope she had a good editor.

  96. #97 Onkel Bob
    February 13, 2011

    DES wrote:

    For example this happens too when a pathogen overwhelms the body causing multi organ failure…it is a system overload… simplistic example but suitable to the company.

    Oh don’t worry, no need to dumb it down for us. Some of us work in medical colleges, and have a fair amount of skills in systems biology. Worse comes to worst, we can call up the papers you cite on PubMed. Oh wait, you haven’t cited anything so far.

    Dinah Everett Snyder.
    author of: “FDA; CrimesAgainstHumanity” coming end of 2011

    Having read examples of your prose and seen your methodology in argumentation, all I have say is, why do you hate your editor so much? (That assumes the tripe sandwich you intend upon serving to the public will go through the editing process.)

  97. #98 brian deer
    February 13, 2011

    This might be a good moment to post the BMJ’s response to the charlatan Wakefield’s various statements put round to those he looks to for his future income and lifestyle. Some people may not have seen this response.

    “Since we published the first of three articles by Brian Deer on the secrets of the MMR scare [1] and a linked editorial [2] on 5 January 2011, the BMJ has been the subject of an orchestrated campaign of emails. In response to questions raised in these emails, we make the following statement.

    “The BMJ stands by the article and the editorial. The article, which was subjected to peer review and editorial checking, was based on enquiries carried out over some seven years, involving, among other things, interviews with parents of children enrolled in Andrew Wakefield’s research. Four such parents are quoted in the article. As made clear in the article, the core data on which the findings were based were evidenced, except in the case of one child, by the transcript of a General Medical Council fitness to practise hearing which sat between July 2007 and May 2010.

    “In many of the emails we have been sent, it is suggested that Andrew Wakefield did not have access to GP records and therefore could not be responsible for discrepancies between those records and what was published in the Lancet in February 1998. The case we presented against Andrew Wakefield that the 1998 Lancet paper was intended to mislead is not critically reliant on GP records. It is primarily based on Royal Free hospital records, including histories taken by clinicians, and letters and other documents received at the Royal Free from GPs and consultants.

    “We draw attention to the finding of the fitness to practise panel, on which we are entitled to rely, that “the project reported in the Lancet paper was established with the purpose to investigate a postulated new syndrome and yet the Lancet paper did not describe this fact at all. Because you [Wakefield] drafted and wrote the final version of the paper, and omitted correct information about the purpose of the study or the patient population, the panel is satisfied that your conduct was irresponsible and dishonest.”

    “Contrary to other suggestions contained in the emails, we made no allegation of dishonesty against Andrew Wakefield’s co-authors, or indeed against anybody else. As the GMC panel heard, it was Andrew Wakefield who wrote the Lancet paper, using data which he anonymised, with little oversight by other authors. We confirm that under the uniform requirements for manuscripts submitted to biomedical journals all authors should be in a position to speak to data, but the evidence is that in this case they were not.

    “We are aware of recent claims made by Andrew Wakefield that “new documents have come to light” purportedly confirming his claims in the Lancet. The material he cites was presented to the GMC panel two and a half years ago. Andrew Wakefield was last year erased from the medical register and he has chosen not to appeal that decision. As indicated, the very many charges proven against him include dishonesty in his research.

    “We are unaware of any peer reviewed paper replicating Andrew Wakefield’s research or confirming his claims to have identified a new syndrome of regressive autism and inflammatory bowel disease associated with MMR vaccination. With respect to gastrointestinal issues, we draw attention to an authoritative consensus statement published last year by experienced specialists in this field [3] and particularly to statement 4: “The existence of a gastrointestinal disturbance specific to persons with ASDs (eg ‘autistic enterocolitis’) has not been established.”

    “Fiona Godlee, Editor in Chief, BMJ

    “References
    1. Deer B. How the case against the MMR vaccine was fixed. BMJ 2011; 342:c5347 doi: 10.1136/bmj.c5347
    2. Godlee F, Smith J, Marcovitch H. Wakefield’s article linking MMR vaccine and autism was fraudulent. BMJ 342:doi:10.1136/bmj.c7452
    3. Buie P, Campbell DB, Fuchs GJ, et al. Evaluation, diagnosis, and treatment of gastrointestinal disorders in individuals with ASDs: a consensus statement. Pediatrics 2010;125;S1-S18.”

  98. #99 AnthonyK
    February 13, 2011

    Great! An arrogant, semi-literate, “pro Safe” vaccine nut, an attraction to argumentum ad capslock, with a vanity tract to promote….
    And, of course, she thinks she’s winning, whereas all she’s doing is whining, while we’re laughing.
    It’s a series of fact-free, citation-less sneers, of the sort which give one insight into the mind of a conspiracy nut – and, of course she makes the ludicrous mistake of assuming that “Respectful Insolence” is a haunt of Pharma shills.
    But no, I’m being rude now.
    What I meant was: perhaps, Dinah, you would accept a little well-meaning advice? Instead of trying to enlighten the arrogant know-alls on this site, I think you should put your efforts into two principle endeavours: 1) complete your book, self-publishing it (duh!) to the very highest standard: gold-tooled leather bindings etc, comic sans throughout for authority, and at least 1000 copies to ensure that your message really gets out and 2) stay in and up your suspicion levels – after all the FDA/Big Pharma are powerful and ruthless institutions who, when they know they are about to be exposed, will resort to anything to persecute you, up to assassination or even worse. So lock your doors, beware of speaking to strangers (or friends), stop posting on blogs like this and take all other sensible precautions. Be very careful! (And in case you think I’m exaggerating, who knows what happened to Ian P Nightly whose projected tome “Bedwetting: the almost silent epidemic” failed to appear after he disappeared mysteriously: spirited away by Big Diaper when the details of his expose leaked out)
    So just be careful. Shhh – they’re watching!
    Best.
    AnthonyK

  99. #100 DrDuran
    February 13, 2011

    @ Dinah Everett Snyder #84

    all you seem to be saying is…. I …. Have ….. No …. Clue ……. What …… I’m …….. Talking ….. About ….. But …. If ….. I ……. Put ….. A ….. Bunch …. of …….. Periods ….. Between ….. Random ….. Phrases …… People ….. Might ….. Like ….. Me.

    Ain’t gonna work.

  100. #101 LW
    February 13, 2011

    “Is he the guy whose foundation gave $35 million to ……. a while back for …..vaccines…womans health….the words on the header don’t matter…what is rather interesting is the relationship MICROSOFT had with the ……… regarding concerns over ……. and other related software conundrums. Has anyone noticed how well Microsoft and ….. get along?”

    oh goody! I love Mad-Libs!

  101. #102 Denice Walter
    February 13, 2011

    “Why it won’t go away”? Seriously! I recall that I first heard about Andy’s “project” soon after its publication ( well before I serendipitously fell into my own “studies” of pseudo-science, c. January, 2000): one of my first thoughts was that, well, it just didn’t “sit” well with other information** with which I was familiar. And always, always – there was the issue of the 12 subjects. I was rather shocked when, in 2001, my cousin ( a bright guy who creates “movie magic” via film editing) was alarmed, questioning whether he should vaccinate his newborn- I remember telling him that *I* wouldn’t be worried if I had a child. I never gave much creedence to the results.

    You can imagine my surprize when I began to hear that many parents actually entertained the veracity of what we now know to be tripe, contrary to most pediatricians’ advice, and *acted* on this belief by choosing not to vaccinate.

    As I surveyed various charlatans’ spiels, I began to notice that anti-vax talking points were often critical to their MO: it was a way to fan the flames of distrust of the medical establishment and simultaneously talk up their own “tried and true” methods for invalidating the need for vaccination. It has been alt med credo forever.

    As we began to learn more and more about the true nature Andy’s “work”, those resplendent in their pseudo-scientific trappings, protested loudly. I suspect that this will continue. If someone’s livlihood, “claim to fame”, and *raison d’etre* are threatened, they’ll probably yell like mad things. Hopefully, fewer and fewer parents will listen.

    ** like graduate courses in cognition, developmental, and physiological. And my prof’s tale of Sir Cyril Burt.

  102. #103 Matthew Cline
    February 13, 2011

    oh goody! I love Mad-Libs!

    “Is he the guy whose foundation gave $35 million to [Darth Vader] a while back for [dinosaur] vaccines [boiled] womans health. what is rather interesting is the relationship MICROSOFT had with the [Three Musketeers] regarding concerns over [puppies] and other related software conundrums. Has anyone noticed how well Microsoft and [Pennywise the clown] get along?”

  103. #104 AutismNewsBeat
    February 13, 2011

    MR KIERAN COONAN QC appeared on behalf of Dr. Wakefield. In his closing submissio­ns, he said:

    “Dr Wakefi­eld was, as you know, a senior author of the Lancet paper, and publicatio­­n of the paper, together with the commentary and the observatio­­ns that he made at the press briefing, has led on the evidence that you have received to a downturn­, or at least did turn to a downturn­, in vaccinatio­­n rates for the MMR vaccine. That is a fact.”

    Source: Transcript day 130, page 3, letter B accessed from the GMC computer in Manchester­, UK

  104. #105 Chris
    February 13, 2011

    Matthew Cline:

    Oh, and finally: would you please provide citations for the studies which duplicated Wakefield’s findings? If there’s so many of these studies it shouldn’t be hard to cite just a handful.

    Seconded and thirded, though I think I was the first to ask on the two year old thread. I am particularly interested in the one from Australia. The Venezuelan ones I have seen (and was not impressed), but Ms. Snyder is the first to bring up Australia.

    I am also curious of how the Gardasil vaccine should be in a discussion on autism. Most children with autism are diagnosed long before age twelve, and most of them are boys.
    Actually, I suspect she is a someone who now has encountered autism through a grandchild. It looks like she was into colloidal silver, and is prone to conspiracy theories. Just like my aunt was in the 1970s. When she visited us in the 1970s she brought books on the wonders of laetrile and the evils of the Tri-Lateral Commission.

    It seems that she is new to this whole computer and internet world, which is why she posted on a two year old article. Her book is probably a bunch of Word or text files scattered on various folders posted on the desktop (explaining a file directory system has been an exercise of futility with my mother-in-law).

  105. #106 Dangerous Bacon
    February 13, 2011

    Previous comments about Dinah’s upcoming book:

    “I hope she had a good editor.

    “Having read examples of your prose and seen your methodology in argumentation, all I have say is, why do you hate your editor so much?”

    It’s one heck of an assumption that there is any editor or quality control of any sort involved. Much more likely is that this is Dinah’s personal E-book or vanity press project – no editor involved. And based on her writing style, anything that got as far as a real publishing house would require teams of editors, all tearing their hair out in an attempt to make…sense…of that…horrific…prose.

    “For the record, I never ONCE claimed to be anti vaccines….
    rather, I am an advocate of SAFE vaccines.”

    Again, the refusal to acknowledge the obvious. Lots of other “antis” are unashamed of their positions (anti-gun and anti-abortion advocates, to name a couple) – why do antivaxers find it so abhorrent to admit how they obviously feel?

    It can’t all be embarassment. After all, Dinah is sharing her “FDA; CrimesAgainstHumanity” title (what’ve you got against spaces, Dinah?) with some of the biggest loons on the Internet who also use this catchphrase – among them, NaturalNews, the Natural Solutions Foundation (co-run by that ex-general who though he could walk through walls), Alex Jones (the Prison Planet dude) and David Icke of Giant Alien Reptiloids fame. Making common cause with all those crazies shows she’s pretty much immune to feelings of embarrassment.

    The least she could do is wear dark glasses when out in public, like this guy.

  106. #107 novalox
    February 13, 2011

    @79

    I could’t help it, I was laughing at this person’s excuse for an argument. Very humorous, especially since he/she/it seems so serious about her argument.

    Between all of the pseudoscience, conspiracy-theory mongering, pathetic attempts at ad hominem attacks, failure to produce even one piece of evidence for her position, and overall general idiocy, I was thinking if they had comment fails at failblog, dinah’s comments would certainly be in the running for fail of the day.

  107. #108 Militant Agnostic
    February 13, 2011

    MI Dawn@86

    Hi, Dinah. So, since you’ve written a book and all, you know about references. Where are all your references to your accusations?

    Silly Dawn – don’t you know … the references are …. hidden in the randomly …. sprinkled …. ellipses.

  108. #109 Candy
    February 13, 2011

    Just checking to see if Dinah has posted her links yet. No? I’m shocked!

  109. #110 LindaPHN
    February 13, 2011

    Breaking news, Andy has a press release but nothing new about it. Childhoodsafety.wordpress.com. Already a comment from DES, no pun intended with reference to a dangerous drug but it kind of fits.
    Sorry, I don’t know how to do the links yet.

  110. #111 Forbidden Snowflake
    February 13, 2011

    It’s one heck of an assumption that there is any editor or quality control of any sort involved.

    In that case: does Big Pharma have a vaccine against bleeding eyeballs and imploding brains?

    Also, AnthonyK @#91 FTW.

  111. #112 KoryO
    February 13, 2011

    Actually, I think I have to thank Dinah for letting me know that my ADD and my dad’s were apparently caused by getting a MMR vaccine.

    Oops. Wait. We never got them. My kids have, however, and so have my niece and nephew. They’re pretty spazzy, but nothing out of the ordinary for kids their ages. I’m not ready to say that MMR is protective against ADD, but maybe I can spin that into a Lancet article. All I need is another eight test subjects like your hero Wakey, and after all, my kid’s having a birthday party soon. I hear that’s primo subject recruiting territory!

    Ooh! I know! It was all a plot by Big Pharma to get money out of my family for Ritalin.

    Oops. Wait. Neither me nor Pops had a prescription for that.

    In fact, the closest thing we ever had to Ritalin was in our morning dose of coffee. So all this time we’ve been supporting Juan Valdez for generations instead of Merck or Glaxo.

    Hey, Dinah, where can I get some homeopathic colloidal silver? I bet that will clear my problem right up, eh? I’m tired of spending so much money on flavored creamers. Help a sista out here, will ya? Because I gotta get over this before I end up on your spectrum…..

  112. #113 Colin Day
    February 13, 2011

    #91
    @AnthonyK

    Argumentum ad capslock

    LMAO, thanks!

  113. #114 DethB4DCaf
    February 13, 2011

    Hey Dinah —
    I hope you’re still reading and writing and [almost] replying — it is rare to see someone show such a serious commitment to a complete and total lack of understanding of the actual data. I look forward to ridiculing whatever “publisher” prints and sells all seventeen copies of your book.

    ……Deth……..

  114. #115 Composer99
    February 13, 2011

    Seriously, “Dr. Jay” – if you’re worried about people wasting their time and talents on worthless pursuits, why don’t you go over to one of the “World of Warcraft” ‘blogs?

    Writing as a World of Warcraft player, I (rep)resent this comment.

  115. #116 Denice Walter
    February 13, 2011

    I must reluctantly admit a grudging respect** that I have for Andy: he has had the creativity and determination to parlay his ( slightly) taller than average, (somewhat) athletic physique, fair hair, and winning smile into a highly paid, long lasting career complete with adoring fans- while I only managed to use similar qualities to *get guys to buy me drinks* at bars…. when I was 21.

    ** Only joking, I have absolutely no respect for him.

  116. #117 Travis
    February 13, 2011

    I wonder if Dinah has run off for good now. It has been a while. But my the crazy is strong in that one. After reading these comments I think it is very clear no one is really publishing her book. The editor would have to be the nicest, most understanding person ever. One that was amazingly patient and willing to put in very long hours. Unless their goal was to produce a document whose style documented the scattered brain of the author rather than presenting the content itself.

    The use of ellipses is wonderful for being so pointless and unneeded. I have no idea what point was being made about Bill Gates as the important parts about what Bill Gates has done wrong seem to be hidden under the ellipses.

    Anyway, after seeing these examples of writing I think it is fairly clear we do not have to worry about large numbers of people being convinced by the information it contains. Unless I am grossly overestimating the comprehension of the average person.

  117. #118 Lawrence
    February 13, 2011

    So Jay – since you asked for responses on the graph & we were happy to comply (basically, it is a bunch of cherry-picked BS) what is your opinion?

  118. #119 Dinah Everett Snyder
    February 13, 2011

    So, I must be a ” loony” or a ” granny” in order to appreciate the remarkable properties of Colloidal Silver?

    Amazing!!

    So the makers of PATENTED Silver Technology Band Aids, bandages and wound dressing pads
    (bought by the US military) is nonsense ?
    Fraudulent Science?

    The fact that NASA employs Silver Technology aboard space craft for their heating and colling systems is Fraudulent Science?

    This is all the SAME concept and principle….

    Silver nano particles are a broad spectrum multi antibacterial. This is not even debatable, this is fact.

    Nano Silver Technology has been awarded more than 27 patents at the US Patent office in the last five years alone, based on this knowledge Athletic wear and socks have been introduced that contain silver fibres for their antimicrobial properties.

    See this PEER REVIEWED study from 2008

    Scientific Research and Essay Vol. 3 (5), pp209-211, May, 2008
    http://www.academicjournals.org/SRE

    ” The effectiveness of colloidal silver is as a result of it’s small particle size. Silver’s strong antibacterial properties have been found extensively useful in treating some of the serious infections caused by pathogenic microorganisms” ( Wickless and Schwader, 2004)

    Which brings me to this point: With the multi drug resistant strains of pathogens infecting people today, could it not be considered a Crime that Colloidal Silver is not more widely used?
    Of course the REASON that Colloidal Silver is not an
    ” accepted” treatment protocol has nothing to do with it’s ABILITY, rather it has everything to do with the fact that it is not a product that can be patented by pharma.
    It can not be patented without removing silver from the public domain. I know several ER doctors and surgeons that make their own Colloidal Silver for personal use.

    In Southern Africa, where availability of pharma meds is sporadic at best in rural areas, Red Cross personnel have invested in Colloidal Silver making equippment in order to have a safe and reliable source of treatment for the broad spectrum of pathogens that they are called on to treat on a daily basis.

    Attack for the pleasure of attack shows only your own failings, and is symptomatic of the broader failings in our society today.

    Dinah Everett Snyder

  119. #120 Candy
    February 13, 2011

    Dinah, since you’re here, where are the links to the studies we’ve requested?

  120. #121 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 13, 2011

    So the makers of PATENTED Silver Technology Band Aids, bandages and wound dressing pads
    (bought by the US military) is nonsense ?
    Fraudulent Science?

    Why do you emphasize “PATENTED” as if that meant anything? I can show you patents for perpetual motion machines, algorithms that compress any data given them as input, antigravity devices — the fact that something gets patented does not prove it works as advertised. Neither is the US military buying it proof that it works; the military has invested in faulty technology before (including, if I remember correctly, bandages whose “special technology” was supposed to stop bleeding faster, an advantage which turned out to not actually be true.)

    But even if we granted for the sake of argument that silver can have legitimate medical uses in the treatment of wounds, what the hell does that have to do with what you’re talking about, which is ingesting silver?? Are you seriously suggesting that everything that’s good to put on wounds is also good to drink??

  121. #122 TheBlackCat
    February 13, 2011

    “Are you seriously suggesting that everything that’s good to put on wounds is also good to drink??”

    Of course, I am going to make a rubbing alcohol martini right now.

    (no, not really, DO NOT TRY THAT)

  122. #123 Travis
    February 13, 2011

    I am going to start drinking hydrogen peroxide. It is an antimicrobial agent and can be used to help treat wounds.

    Maybe you should show some evidence for ingesting silver. And as mentioned above, patents are really not a good way to show something works.

  123. #124 Agent Smith
    February 13, 2011

    Dinah Everett Snyder shows all the signs of paranoid schizophrenia. The writings have all the signs: 1) unintelligible, timecubian gibberish 2) mad-libs style punctuation 3) random capitalization and 4) narcissism (i.e. think they need to get their earth-shattering conspiracy theories published, put their name everywhere).

    Dinah, most kooks like yourself get far better publicity over a pharyngula (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/). If you write to PZ, you might even make it on the “I get mail” segment. You could maybe mix your anti-vax views w/ Christian fundamentalism for maximum effectiveness.

  124. #125 AnthonyK
    February 13, 2011

    Ooh, we’ve got her going now!
    Woo hoo! So, not only are you an anti-vax, anti-science, anti-sense nutcase, but you’ve got a silver hobby horse – one that’s PATENTED (to use the fairy knowledge vernacular) – which we have DARED to criticise.
    Sad, internet mentalist.
    As I said earler, go back to your self-publishing delusion, stop getting cross that on a pro-rationality blog they have, rather elegantly, criticised what passes for thought in your mind, and start obsessing instead about the form and nature (remember – gold tooled, comic sans) of your world-changing screed.
    You’re an idiot.
    And you are swimming with sharks.
    OTOH, carry on. You’re more amusing than augie, at least.
    Even if your grammar isn’t quite up to his level….

  125. #126 AnthonyK
    February 13, 2011

    could it not be considered a Crime that Colloidal Silver is not more widely used?

    I suppose it could…but where would it be ranked? Child abuse, drink driving, internet plagiarism, war crimes – where would you rank it on the scale of global wrongdoing? Do tell.

    I think it’s hilarious that somewhere in the world, someone called Dinah Everett Snyder is getting REALLY ANGRY because we’re denying her fractal insanity. Carry on, D.

  126. #127 lilady
    February 13, 2011

    Golly…there is so much bogus poop posted here, I scarcely know where to begin.

    Will the real Jay Gordon, MD, F.A.A.P., please stand up? I find your statement about not being trained in epidemiology a bit “over the top”. However, this trained epidemiology public health nurse, is willing to give you a “pass” on that statement and encourages you to visit your certifying group’s website at the American Academy of Pediatrics…especially their policy position statements regarding childhood immunizations. You might also “visit” the CDC Vaccines:Ed/imzufdate web site for their yearly updates on immunizations (and get CE credits as well). I would also recommend the CDC Emerging Infectious Diseases Journal website. BTW, I visited your personal website and am wondering why you still have Robert Kennedy’s anti-vaccine “report” on your site, when it has been removed from Rolling Stone Magazine and other social websites.

    @ Dinah: You are really are a self-promoting celeb author. Many of the posters here have real credentials in medicine, nursing, biology, immunology, epidemiology, and lab sciences. Other posters are self-educated in these disciplines; and your credentials are?????

    Dinah, your latest posting about colloidal silver are ludicrous. Before the discovery of anti-bacterial agents…eighty years ago…silver compounds were used as an anti-bacterial against syphilis; treatment with these compounds left the patient with a blue-tinged complexion. I am interested in the Red Cross report that you referenced about using colloidal silver compounds in lieu of antibiotics.

  127. #128 Sauceress
    February 13, 2011

    #109 Travis

    I have no idea what point was being made about Bill Gates as the important parts about what Bill Gates has done wrong seem to be hidden under the ellipses.

    I think she’s just being a faithful little AoA groupie. AoA has just run a little rant calling for its sycophants to target Bill Gates.

    On the topic of AoA, I noticed they are currently touting a review from the Journal of Immunotoxicology written by Helen Ratajczak. here’s a taste:

    Theoretical aspects of autism: Causes—A review.
    Helen Ratajczak
    Journal of Immunotoxicology, 2011; 8(1): 68–79
    The new version of the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine (i.e., MMR II) that did not contain Thimerosal was introduced in 1979. By 1983, only the new version was available. Autism in the United States spiked dramatically between 1983 and 1990 from 4–5/10,000 to 1/500. In 1988, two doses of MMR II were recommended to immunize those individuals who did not respond to the first injection.
    A spike of incidence of autism accompanied the addition of the second dose of MMR II. Also, in 1988, MMR II was used in the United Kingdom, which reported a dramatic increase in prevalence of autism to 1/64 (noted above). Canada, Denmark, and Japan also reported dramatic increases in prevalence of autism. It is important to note that unlike the former MMR, the rubella component of MMR II was propagated in a human cell line derived from embryonic lung tissue (Merck and Co., Inc., 2010).

    The MMR II vaccine is contaminated with human DNA from the cell line. This human DNA could be the cause of the spikes in incidence. An additional increased spike in incidence of autism occurred in 1995 when the chicken pox vaccine was grown in human fetal tissue (Merck and Co., Inc., 2001; Breuer, 2003). The current incidence of autism in the United States, noted above, is approximately 1/100.

    The human DNA from the vaccine can be randomly inserted into the recipient’s genes by homologous recombination, a process that occurs spontaneously only within a species. Hot spots for DNA insertion are found on the X chromosome in eight autism-associated genes involved in nerve cell synapse formation, central nervous system development, and mitochondrial function (Deisher, 2010). This could provide some explanation of why autism is predominantly a disease of boys. Taken together, these data support the hypothesis that residual human DNA in some vaccines might cause autism.

    Newsflash!!1!eleventyone!!
    It’s not the Thimerosal niether the evil MMR vaccine spirits which cause Autism, it’s that Satanic foetal DNA in vaccines that does it!!!

    Now, if you will excuse me, I need to round up my neurons out of hiding and and gently coax them into interacting somewhat intelligently with each other again.

    Oh, and Dinah Everett Snyder, as a long standing senior member of The Elipse Fan Club, let me say on behalf of our millions, if not thousands of devotees…maybe even hundreds…we really wish you wouldn’t give us such a bad name!
    ~~~~~
    On a more sober note, I’m still snowed under here with the daunting cyclone cleanup and general aftermath. Power came back on Friday after 8 days absence. Mobile network and landline returned on Thursday…7 days after Cyclone Yasi.
    I was evaccuated from the property I have here (visiting on an extended Xmas/New Year break)due the predicted ocean/storm surge (am on beachfront) and now I’m having trouble finding all the stuff I sequestered away at friends houses. Then there’s 10 acres with trees down everywhere. Only one of them just side swiped the corner of my roof, but many incredible and frightening very near misses.
    Soooo glad I didn’t stay. Guess the FSM vaguely sober and watching over me and mine ;)
    A Cat 5 cyclone over 500kms wide and mostly heathens round these parts, yet no one seriously injured…go figure!
    May You Too Be Touched By His Noodly Appendage.

  128. #129 Science Mom
    February 13, 2011

    The new version of the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine (i.e., MMR II) that did not contain Thimerosal was introduced in 1979. By 1983, only the new version was available.

    I can’t get the full text for a couple of days. Does it really state this? So she is implying that the MMR licensed in the U.S. in 1971 DID have thimerosal in it? Bwahahaha!!! Oh and the hand-waving to get autism prevalence to fit with vaccine licensure must have made her look like a windmill. The Deisher she cites is a presentation at last year’s IMFAR, hasn’t even been published.

  129. #130 maydijo
    February 13, 2011

    Regarding the claim that colloidal silver isn’t an accepted treatment because it can’t be patented by pharma companies – What about aspirin? It’s an accepted treatment that pharma companies can’t patent. I don’t have any stats to back me up here but it’s probably the most widely-used drug in the world, and I can walk into any supermarket and buy 24 tablets for about 50 cents. If it’s all a conspiracy, where’s the big push to keep me from taking aspirin when I get a headache?

  130. #131 LW
    February 13, 2011

    “The human DNA from the vaccine can be randomly inserted into the recipient’s genes by homologous recombination, a process that occurs spontaneously only within a species.”

    Viruses propagated in human cell lines cause homologous recombination that causes autism? Good thing scientists are working hard to eradicate the viruses such as measles, mumps, rubella, and chickenpox that propagate themselves in human cell lines in vivo rather than in vitro.

    If the diseases can be eradicated then, as with smallpox, vaccination can cease too. Of course, thanks to our friends the antivaxxers, the diseases are making a comeback, so more people are at risk of homologous recombination.

  131. #132 Narad
    February 13, 2011

    The editor would have to be the nicest, most understanding person ever.

    Speaking from long experience in that end of journals publishing, I’m pretty confident in asserting that he or she would actually have to be a ruthless bastard.

  132. #133 LW
    February 13, 2011

    Maydijo, what I found amusing is that she makes a big deal about how the use of colloidal silver can’t be patented, after making a big deal about all the patents issued for the use of colloidal silver.

  133. #134 Prometheus
    February 13, 2011

    Travis (#115) comments (tongue-in-cheek, I presume):

    “I am going to start drinking hydrogen peroxide. It is an antimicrobial agent and can be used to help treat wounds.”

    Travis, several “alternative” practitioners have beaten you to it. In fact, they’ve gone you one better – they’re injecting hydrogen peroxide into their victims…er, patients.

    No, I’m not kidding.

    Dinah’s non-sequitor segue into colloidal silver isn’t the craziest thing I’ve heard, not even this week. It doesn’t work, of course, but it’s not nearly as toxic as, say, injecting hydrogen peroxide. And aren’t these “alternative” practitioners the same clowns who sell “anti-oxidants” in their shops? You’d think someone would tell them that hydrogen peroxide is a powerful oxidiser.

    Dinah is certainly worth reading (despite the fractured syntax and eccentric use of punctuation) simply for the entertainment value. Even though I work with the public every day, I occasionally need reminding of how deep the pool of ignorance and gullibility runs.

    Prometheus

  134. #135 Travis
    February 13, 2011

    Prometheus,
    Mentioning that seems to have disloged something in my brain. I believe I read about that in the past. Maybe it was even reported here. I forget where I saw it.

    I really have to wonder what the average person thinks. I am somewhat sheltered hanging out with largely well educated people, most of whom are scientists or are students in science. A few weeks ago I was at a local mall and was talking to a woman selling honey they produce. She had a few of the normal talking points about how natural everything they sold was but she also indicated that honey was great because it had beneficial bacteria in it. Then she went on to discuss how Penicillin came from mold which she thought was bacteria as well. It made me wonder what the average person out there thinks of viruses, bacteria, fungi and such. Are they all the same thing to many people?

  135. #136 Sauceress
    February 13, 2011

    Apologies that I didn’t have time to cast a spell against those spelling & grammar demons before my last post.

    @Science Mom
    Theoretical aspects of autism: Causes—A review

  136. #137 Sauceress
    February 13, 2011

    Bah..link moderation!

    @Science Mom
    Go to
    (all the double yous) rescuepost.com/files/theoretical-aspects-of-autism-causes-a-review1.pdf

  137. #138 Matthew Cline
    February 13, 2011

    The human DNA from the vaccine can be randomly inserted into the recipient’s genes by homologous recombination, a process that occurs spontaneously only within a species.

    How easy or hard is it for naked DNA to pass through the outer cell membrane? And then how easy or hard is it to pass through the nuclear membrane? For the second I would have assume really, really hard, or the nucleus wouldn’t be able to contain DNA like it does.

  138. #139 Enkidu
    February 13, 2011

    “On the topic of AoA, I noticed they are currently touting a review from the Journal of Immunotoxicology written by Helen Ratajczak.”

    Gah, it looks like something straight out of “Medical Hypotheses.” All talk and no data.

    On a side note, measles is now being given a pass as the evil ingredient of the MMR. Look out rubella, they are gunning for you now!

  139. #140 BraselC5048
    February 13, 2011

    Look at the contradiction! Boasting about how it’s patented, then saying it’s not used because it can’t be patented? I’ve never seen anything that bad before. Blogging fodder time!

    PS: you’re using ellipses wrong. For one thing, you never need to use more then 3 periods.
    I had a longer comment, but forgot to put a name and email address, so I lost it.

  140. #141 Calli Arcale
    February 13, 2011

    BraselC5048: I find that hitting “back” will usually recover my comment when I do that — Firefox, at least, doesn’t dump the contents of the textarea until I reload (and sometimes not even then).

    maydijo:

    Regarding the claim that colloidal silver isn’t an accepted treatment because it can’t be patented by pharma companies – What about aspirin? It’s an accepted treatment that pharma companies can’t patent.

    Yep; and it made Bayer rich. Patents aren’t everything.

    Dinah:

    The fact that NASA employs Silver Technology aboard space craft for their heating and colling systems is Fraudulent Science?

    Wow — I’ve heard some crappy arguments in favor of colloidal silver before, but that’s the loosest, most pointless one I’ve ever seen. “Silver is used in machinery, therefore colloidal silver will cure what ails you if you drink it!” Wow. Oh, and the word NASA is in there! Because you can’t trust the FDA, but everybody knows NASA is cutting edge and awesome! (Maybe because they’re a four-letter acronym, rather than three?)

  141. #142 KoryO
    February 13, 2011

    Dinah, dahlink, you’re not a loony for believing in the amazing qualities of colloidal silver.

    You ARE a loony for thinking that NASA’s application of it in heating and cooling systems somehow demonstrates a remarkable antibacterial property. You ARE a loony if you think that ADD has something to do with bacteria, when almost all of the evidence to date shows that genetics are high on the list of likely culprits. You ARE a loony if you think that a vaccine administered to girls over the age of nine is somehow connected to autism spectrum disorders that show up before the children even enter school.

    Just between us girls…did you author any of the “studies” you cite as support for your theories?

  142. #143 skeptifem
    February 14, 2011

    re: hepatitis vaccines for babies

    There are communities where passive infection is common because many people have the disease and it can live on surfaces for a very long time. Many of them are low income/non white communities. Most of the people upset about the hepatits B vaccine for babies don’t seem to know about that reality for other people; the only people I have seen complain about that are white people who are middle/upper class. It makes sense from a public health point of view to try and control that situation and also PREVENT it in other communities.

  143. #144 lilady
    February 14, 2011

    @ Science Mom: I love your posts. Information about every vaccine used in the United States is available on the web at “CDC Pink Book”.

    The MMR Vaccine NEVER contained thimerisol, nor does the MMRV vaccine contain thimerisol. They are packaged in one-dose vials in lypholized (freeze-dried) powder form, reconstituted with individual vials of sterile water, also supplied by the vaccine manufacturer. Once reconstituted, they should be used immediately or in the case of MMR vaccine, reconstituted vaccine can be stored under refrigeration and discarded if not used within 8 hours. The MMRV vaccine when reconstituted, can be used within 30 minutes and must be discarded, if not used within that narrow time frame.

    The history of the development of single antigen vaccines (measles, mumps, rubella and varicella) is provided in the CDC Pink Book, under the disease name. In those chapters, the history of the MMR and MMRV vaccines is also provided.

  144. #145 Narad
    February 14, 2011

    Look out rubella, they are gunning for you now!

    Seems to be more mumps among the lunatic fringe from what I’ve read.

  145. #146 Matthew Cline
    February 14, 2011

    Regarding the claim that colloidal silver isn’t an accepted treatment because it can’t be patented by pharma companies – What about aspirin?

    I think the claim is that a drug company won’t invest the money into doing the clinical and pre-clinical trials to, for example, demonstrate that ingested colloidal silver acts as an antibiotic, if all of that company’s competitors can then immediately swoop in and start selling colloidal silver without having to have spent any money on any of the trials.

  146. #147 lilady
    February 14, 2011

    Colloidal silver has dangerous side effects including argyria (permanent blue-gray coloration of the skin, nailbeds and gums), neurological problems including seizures and kidney damage. The FDA has issued a final ruling about the inappropriateness of using this compound in any ingested medicine.

    This has not stopped alternative/complementary “medicine” advocates who continually hawk their silver-laced supplements and silver-laced “antibiotics” on the web. It seems as soon as the FDA regulatory agents shut them down, they re-group under a different branding and sell their poison to gullible people. Other “scientists” and purveyors of quackery sell kits and directions to make colloidal silver “for personal use.”

    I am still awaiting the report from “Dinah” about the Red Cross using colloidal silver in lieu of antibiotics.

  147. #148 DLC
    February 14, 2011

    Dinah: the Army also bought 10 or so (now thoroughly discredited) “Sniffex” explosive-detecting dowsing rods, only to find out at much cost and many experiments that the things were completely bogus. The US Army also wasted years screwing around with psychics and so-called “Remote Viewing”, only to find out they were being rooked.

  148. #149 T. Bruce McNeely
    February 14, 2011

    The fact that NASA employs Silver Technology aboard space craft for their heating and colling systems is Fraudulent Science?

    The fact that the auto industry employs ethylene glycol solution for their cooling systems is not fraudulent science. Not only that, ingesting ethylene glycol is guaranteed to provide permanent relief for whatever is ailing you.

  149. #150 Lawrence
    February 14, 2011

    Well then, under Dinah’s logic, anything that can be topically applied to the skin should definitely be injected! Here’s to neo & polysporin shots for everyone!!!

  150. #151 MI Dawn
    February 14, 2011

    Well, going with what lilady (yay nurses! We rock), I’ve used silver for years. Silver nitrate sticks are standard in almost any doctor’s office, ER, and various other places in hospitals. They are often used to sterilize and/or cauterize a small infected and/or bleeding area. They BURN!!!! Can’t imagine what that silver would do to my insides and have no plans on finding out.

    (yeah, for those non-medical/sciency – cauterize means burn the ends of the blood vessels so they can’t bleed any more. Took me MONTHS to get used to the odor of the use of the cautery in the OR for most surgeries; made me sick to the point of vomiting).

  151. #152 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 14, 2011

    Oh, and did anyone catch this little gem from Dinah?

    I would also like to point out that the Flu vaccine suspension liquid is 50% by volume mercury….

    Something tells me that our favorite self-published Mad (Libs) Scientist read somewhere that thimerosal is 50% mercury by weight, and not only got confused between “by weight” and “by volume”, but even more egregiously between “the trace amounts of thimerosal used to ward off contamination in the suspension liquid” and “the entirety of the suspension liquid.” Dinah, honey, it doesn’t do any good to remember just the digits; you also have to remember what they apply to.

    When you think about it, it’s pretty ironic that Dinah should scream so loud about one metallic element used in vaccines to destroy contamination (mercury) and at the same time be championing another (silver.) Doesn’t it occur to her that if silver has this amazing power to destroy micro-organisms (many of which are essentially just cells we don’t happen to want) then it’s possible that what it does to human cells isn’t necessarily nice either?

  152. #153 Matthew Cline
    February 14, 2011

    Oh, and did anyone catch this little gem from Dinah?

    I would also like to point out that the Flu vaccine suspension liquid is 50% by volume mercury….

    Oh, wow. For a 1 cc flu shot, that would make 6.75 grams of mercury per shot. Even 50% by weight would be 0.074 grams per shot, or 74,000 micrograms. (Wait, it’d actually be more than that, since the saline solution would have a density greater than 1 gram/cc)

  153. #154 Beamup
    February 14, 2011

    Of course, Dina reveals her true colors by bringing up Gardasil. She is apparently not actually concerned with autism, or she would be unconcerned with a vaccine given so long after autism symptoms become apparent.

    Mentioning Gardasil is a dead giveaway that the real belief is “vaccines are evil” and autism is just an excuse.

  154. #155 Science Mom
    February 14, 2011

    @ Sauceress, thanks for the link. Well I was being reserved before but Dr. Ratajczak has clearly gone into crank territory after, what appears to be, a solid career prior to this.

    Oh and glad you made it through the storm with just a bit of damage. So much for a quiet holiday.

    @ Lilady, thank you and ditto. Yes, I know vaccine excipients quite well and that MMR never contained thimerosal, hence my reaction. It was such an elementary mistake for her to make (one of many) but yet, is still lapped up by the twoo believers in their lust to have ‘real’ scientists and physicians join their ranks.

  155. #156 Matthew Cline
    February 14, 2011

    @Beamup:

    Of course, Dina reveals her true colors by bringing up Gardasil. She is apparently not actually concerned with autism

    There are people who are quite open about thinking that autism is just one of several (or many) problems caused by vaccines, so I don’t think it’s fair to say of Snyder that “autism is just an excuse”. It’s places like Age of Autism, which are supposed to be about autism, where talking about Gardasil is revealing of their true intent.

  156. #157 JohnV
    February 14, 2011

    @MI Dawn

    I’ve had a surgical wound cauterized with silver nitrate and I didn’t feel it through the novocain. It was a million times better then having the wound cauterized with the electric torture gun of death that I had previously experienced. I also perceived a more rapid recovery because the wound wasn’t “melted” closed. I assumed that was the benefit to using silver nitrate, now I’m off to wikipedia, the source of all knowledge, to see what they say.

  157. #158 Calli Arcale
    February 14, 2011

    My experience with silver nitrate is entirely constrained to the treatment of canker sores. It really does work, but is thoroughly unpleasant, and except for the very largest sores, I’d generally rather suffer through the sores.

    But you had novocain; that’s gotta make a world of difference.

  158. #159 Vicki, Chief Assistant to the Assistant Chief
    February 14, 2011

    The U.S. Army is not necessarily a good judge of medical, scientific, or technical matters. Ask anyone in New Orleans about the Army Corps of Engineers.

    Also, very often “the army bought this” means “Congress instructed the army to buy this,” and that in turn can mean “this device is made in the congressional district represented by a powerful member of Congress.” Not “this works,” much less “this is the best widget on the market today” or even “this works and we need 10,000 widgets for the troops in Afghanistan.”

  159. #160 Pareidolius
    February 14, 2011

    MESSAGE BEGINS———————————

    Shills and Minions,

    This Dinah rebel may be baffled by the simplest of syllogisms and certain basics of English grammar but do not underestimate her, she is clearly on to our most nefarious and eeeeeevil plans.

    The news is not good my minions, the drones down in encoding have deciphered the rebel message. The elipses are not a sign of mental lapse, they are in reality holographically inlaid Sooper Seekret™ rebel hypercode messages:

    what is rather interesting is the relationship MICROSOFT had with the Glaxxon Corpus regarding concerns over Operation: Monkey Brain Shrink and other related software conundrums. Has anyone noticed how well Microsoft and The Great Egg Mother Lizz, Reptile Queen of England get along? okay, that brings me to the BOTTOM line….
    because I also happened to notice that Paula Abdul did not QUITE fit the beneficiary needs outlined to have received that $35 million indecipherable gibberish what the heck more indecipherable gibberish it’s just money, and half of it was Warren Buffets(sic) anyway!

    As I said, Imperator Gates of the Great MegaOmnipentium is most displeased. As our “man” on the beat as it were, he will tolerate no interference from the rebels. Obsidian 4 has been dispatched.

    Oh, and I am told it is a something called “Valent Time Day”, where you evidently worship your primary blood pumping organ. In celebration you will no doubt consume massive amounts of simple carbohydrates that will ironically contribute to your pumps’ early failure. Cindy tried to explain it to me to no avail, but we support this festival since it means that you will be gobbling down more of our lovely pharmacopæa. You’ll find a lovely box of chocolate in your messenger port with your other ill-gotten Pharma lucre.

    As we say on Glaxxon prime: Shill’t v’ Minion’t ekkxh verat m’hoch el mt*eef v’trech on ottk!

    Rough Earth translation: Keep loading the cart shills and minions, the horse is blind.

    Lord Draconis Zeneca, VC, iH7L

    Forward Mavoon of the Great Fleet, Suzerain of V’tar and Pharmaca Magna of Terra

    PharmaCOM Orbital HQ

    0010101101001

    —————————————— MESSAGE ENDS

  160. #161 DRK
    February 14, 2011

    I think the use of silver in bandaging is a fairly standard medical treatment. I once poured scalding hot tea on my leg, which was not even as fun as it sounds, and once they got the burn cleaned up, they gave me an ointment with silver in it to apply to the wound. This was not military, but rather civilian doctors. It’s been awhile, so I can’t remember if they gave me the stuff right away at the ER, or if my primary care doc gave it to me after a few days.

    Anyway, looking at the blackish color that the ointment turned after being exposed to the air was totally gross. I can’t think that would be a great thing to ingest. It seemed awfully reactive, you know?

    Cleared up the burn nicely, though, with very little scarring.

  161. #162 Dinah Everett Snyder
    February 14, 2011

    Re”Many of the posters here have real medical credentials,”

    of course you do !! That completely explains your narrow minded and bigotted view of the world, and medicine.

    In fact that also goes a long way towards explaining the rabid pack mentality and ” me first” rush to blog something inane without s l o w i n g down long enough to actually read what I wrote and retain it for long enough to get the facts straight.

    I never made reference to a link between Gardasil and autism. ( as a cause) I merely used the example of Gardasil as another dangerous vaccine where currently the risks appear to outweigh the benefits. And the fact that although the test subjects were 15 and older, the FDA has approved it for children as young as 9. On what grounds does the FDA approve it for 9 year olds, because the studies clearly do not include any 9 year olds. And, as a mother, (although this should be evident to most normal people), there is a world of difference between a nine year old and a 15 year old, physically and hormonally.
    I am sure that you will all be able to look into the questions being raised about Gardasil on your own steam since it has been quite widely reported.

    Here is one guaranteed to get your stethescope in a knot kids: Red Cross staffers also use Rooibos Tea intravenously to combat dehydration and electrolyte inbalance in pediatric and geriatric patients in rural areas of Southern Africa, Namibia and Zimbabwe. Why? because supplies of traditional electrolytes are sporadic at best, and Rooibos Tea seems to work just as well.

    Tsk tsk.. and you thought tea was just a quaint English custom.

    Yes yes I know…….whine whine whine…you want to see the study….well, sometimes when people are actually really going out of their way to save lives and use what they have at their disposal they don’t have time to dilly dally with a study. The Rooibos Tea must work since they have been doing it for around 30 years. )Of course Vioxx was used for years too before….and FDA approved that !!)
    gasp ! no! really !?

    Or you could just click your heels together and say,” It isn’t true, it isn’t true…because I say so. And I’m a doctor. And everyone on this site agrees with me too”.

    RE: ” The FDA has issued a final ruling on the inappropriateness of using this compound in any ingested medicine.” Hail Hitler !
    Just a heads up, if every person who uses Colloidal Silver internally turned blue there would be millions of blue people walking around. The fact that there are NOT millions of blue people walking around is a testament to the inaccuracy of your statement concerning the ingestion of CS. Go and check your facts.

    Frankly, if this site is any indication of what they are letting out of medical school these days then the public is in more danger than anyone realizes.

    I have never encountered such a pack of hyennas, of course maggots all stick to the same piece of rotting meat, and birds of a feather will flock together. So do baboons…
    in fact you make a good case study for the question of whether Neanderthol genes could possibly still be lurking in our gene pool… Craig Venter may have a trial you could sign up for, go on, please, do something useful.

    What a shameful waste of energy here, when you could be out doing something worthwhile with your time!Ergo, that trial over at the Genome Project, quick before all the other doctors beat you to it.

    So, little gremlins, keep on down your mindless path of spite and malice, childish and churlish verbal mesafirstas, and don’t forget to buy my book so that you can check out all those pesky study references.

    Dinah Everett Snyder.

  162. #163 the bug guy
    February 14, 2011

    –snerk–
    Oh, sheesh, the “we don’t have time to do a study because we’re healing people” excuse. Yep, you have a copy of the “Big Book Of Quack Excuses”.

    So, little gremlins, keep on down your mindless path of spite and malice, childish and churlish verbal mesafirstas…

    Glad I bought the thermonuclear grade irony meter.

    and don’t forget to buy my book so that you can check out all those pesky study references.

    Why should we buy your book when you haven’t given us any evidence yet that you have a clue?

  163. #164 Aaron
    February 14, 2011

    Dinah, thank you for your responses. Would you happen to the links to the studies that replicated Wakefield’s work? Someone above mentioned that you referred to some studies in Australia?

  164. #165 Jarred C
    February 14, 2011

    …your narrow minded and bigotted view of the world…

    …the rabid pack mentality and “me first” rush…

    …whine whine whine…

    Hail Hitler !

    …such a pack of hyennas, of course maggots all stick to the same piece of rotting meat…

    …So, little gremlins, keep on down your mindless path of spite and malice, childish and churlish verbal mesafirstas…

    And you claim the regular commenters here are childish?

    By the way, your posts here show considerably poor writing skills, reading-comprehension skills, and an inability to understand and/or use basic logic. If you wish for folks here to purchase your book, I seriously suggest that you start demonstrating a basic ability to read and write at a level expected of authorship.

  165. #166 DRK
    February 14, 2011

    They have in fact studied the use of Gardasil in 9 year olds, according to this FDA report:

    http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AdvisoryCommittees/CommitteesMeetingMaterials/PediatricAdvisoryCommittee/UCM234387.pdf

    And colloidal silver is not good to eat. It’s not just the US government that thinks so, the Aussies do, too.

    http://www.tga.gov.au/adr/aadrb/aadr0710.htm#a3

    You know, we are all still waiting for links to those studies that replicate Wakefield’s.

  166. #167 Peebs
    February 14, 2011

    Silver Sulphdiazine (sp) has been used as a topical treatment for burns for many years. Here in the UK the trade name is ‘Flamazine’ and bloody good stuff it is too.

    However Colloidal Silver rang a vague bell so I wandered over to the JREF and found this.

    http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/22536241

    Truly shocking.

  167. #168 Calli Arcale
    February 14, 2011

    Dinah, I’m just curious, but could you explain why you brought up Gardasil as an example of a vaccine where the risks outweigh the benefits without elaborating? I mean, I’d ask you to provide evidence, but honestly you didn’t even get to the point of stating your case. It’s just a vague assertion.

    I’m also still curious what the use of silver in heating and cooling systems on spacecraft has to do with ingestion of colloidal silver. You have a very high standard of evidence for safety and efficacy of vaccines; surely you have the same standards for silver?

    (I’m also curious from a pure geek perspective. I’m a major space geek, and consequently am curious just which heating and cooling systems you’re referring to. The category is pretty broad, after all. I know silver is used in radiators and some thermal blankets, which are part of the overall thermoregulation of the craft — whether manned or unmanned — but this seems irrelevant to colloidal silver taken orally.)

  168. #169 phantomreader42
    February 14, 2011

    Dinah Everett Snyder @ #154:

    Yes yes I know…….whine whine whine…you want to see the study….well, sometimes when people are actually really going out of their way to save lives and use what they have at their disposal they don’t have time to dilly dally with a study.

    Dinah again, later in the very same post:

    don’t forget to buy my book so that you can check out all those pesky study references.

    So, first you say the studies don’t exist because the people involved are too busy saving lives to do a formal study, then you say the studies exist and are referenced in your book. These two claims cannot both be true. At least one of them must be a lie. Which one?

    Of course, given that the one making both claims is such a delusional asshole as to equate a ruling that consuming large quantities of reactive metals might be dangerous dangerous to GENOCIDE, it seems likely BOTH the quoted statements are pure bullshit, along with your alleged book.

  169. #170 MissouriMule
    February 14, 2011

    Autism cured! Well, maybe controlled for one person so far.
    Austism is the lack of worms in our diet.

    TheScientist 25(2)42

    a bit off topic but it does have a bit about autism.

  170. #171 a-non
    February 14, 2011

    Dinah,

    [blockquote]I never made reference to a link between Gardasil and autism. ( as a cause) I merely used the example of Gardasil as another dangerous vaccine where currently the risks appear to outweigh the benefits.[/blockquote]

    Provide a source to this claim that isn’t one of your wacky anti-vaccine friends.

    [blockquote]Here is one guaranteed to get your stethescope in a knot kids: Red Cross staffers also use Rooibos Tea intravenously to combat dehydration and electrolyte inbalance in pediatric and geriatric patients in rural areas of Southern Africa, Namibia and Zimbabwe. Why? because supplies of traditional electrolytes are sporadic at best, and Rooibos Tea seems to work just as well.[/blockquote]

    I will have to call shenanigans on that one, unless you can provide an independent source to verify your claim.

    [blockquote]Just a heads up, if every person who uses Colloidal Silver internally turned blue there would be millions of blue people walking around. The fact that there are NOT millions of blue people walking around is a testament to the inaccuracy of your statement concerning the ingestion of CS. Go and check your facts.[/blockquote]

    Unfortunately, argyria isn’t the only side effect of silver. I know that you know that, but since you’re so heavily invested in the product you won’t mention that or take that seriously. Hey, just like those pharma shills you’re beating up!

  171. #172 Anne
    February 14, 2011

    Via Michelle Dawson on Twitter, http://twitter.com/autismcrisis:

    Oh no “Andrew Wakefield trying to open a facility for autistic adults” http://j.mp/hqB6Dj what, to experiment on?

  172. #173 herr doktor bimler
    February 14, 2011

    as a long standing senior member of The Elipse Fan Club
    Does this involve working out on an elliptical trainer?

    I don’t know about the rest of you but rather than accept that Dinah is sufficiently stupid or crazy to believe her seemingly-endless stream of bullshit, I find it preferable to think that she’s another attention-seeking liar.

    Red Cross staffers also use Rooibos Tea intravenously to combat dehydration and electrolyte inbalance in pediatric and geriatric patients in rural areas of Southern Africa, Namibia and Zimbabwe. Why? because supplies of traditional electrolytes are sporadic at best, and Rooibos Tea seems to work just as well. Why? because supplies of traditional electrolytes are sporadic at best, and Rooibos Tea seems to work just as well.

    Needless to say, there is no record on the WWW of its intravenous use (although pharma companies have patented rooibos extract for that purpose). Unlike Brawndo, Rooibos tea contains no electrolytes.

    Amusingly, Big Herbal tried to patent the name “rooibos”.

  173. #174 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    February 14, 2011

    Dinah,
    I think it’s fairly well known that silver is antimicrobial. Are there studies that show that it provides a benefit when ingested? Are there other benefits for silver and are there studies for same?

  174. #175 dinah
    February 14, 2011

    To “DRK” yes, thank you, I had seen that one.
    That is a post market ongoing study, where do you imagine is the study that gave the FDA permission to call it safe for 9 year olds ahead of any prior knowledge as to the actual safety?

    I am always morbidly amused to see ” Death” listed under
    ” General disorders and administration site conditions”
    Shouldn’t “Death” have it’s own Adverse Outcome line, as opposed to lumping it in with all those, um…less serious outcomes?

    Dinah Everett Snyder.

  175. #176 lilady
    February 14, 2011

    @ peebs: You made my day with that video of the blue man! It seems that he made his own colloidal silver “supplement” with directions from the web…as I mentioned in a prior post.

    He first started with a colloidal silver cream applied to his skin as treatment for “dermatitis”…obviously not diagnosed by a “traditional” medicine practitioner. Why go to a traditional medicine doctor, when you have the ability to self-diagnose and self-prescribe medication?

    @ Dinah: I’m still waiting, while controlling my “rabid pack mentality” for your “Red Cross using colloidal silver in lieu of antibiotics” citation. While you’re at the Red Cross site, please provide their report on the use of roobis tea intravenously for re-hydration. I’m especially interested in how they are able to sterilize the substance and how they are able to package the tea in sterile IV bags…in the field.

    Hope Dinah has viewed the blue man video; she should be contacting him for an endorsement for her soon-to-published book.

  176. #177 Candy
    February 14, 2011

    Hi, Dinah! Before you go, please post the studies replicating Wakefield’s.

    Thanks!

  177. #178 MI Dawn
    February 14, 2011

    Well, I can’t find anything about the Red Cross using rooibos tea for dehydration through google. I do find that the Red Cross Memorial Hospital in Cape Town, SA, uses it externally for eczema and other skin rashes. And there are a lot of cosmetic companies interested in it externally. So, I don’t know where Dinah got her info from. However, I did NOT go through all the references listed on the one pdf I found; it was by a Euro Cosmetic company and had a lot of references.

    It apparently has been used as a traditional medicine for a long time, but I can’t find any real clinical studies.

  178. #179 herr doktor bimler
    February 14, 2011

    Red Cross staffers also use Rooibos Tea intravenously to combat dehydration and electrolyte inbalance in pediatric and geriatric patients in rural areas of Southern Africa, Namibia and Zimbabwe. Why? because supplies of traditional electrolytes are sporadic at best, and Rooibos Tea seems to work just as well.

  179. #180 herr doktor bimler
    February 14, 2011

    Red Cross staffers also use Rooibos Tea intravenously to combat dehydration and electrolyte inbalance in pediatric and geriatric patients in rural areas of Southern Africa, Namibia and Zimbabwe. Why? because supplies of traditional electrolytes are sporadic at best, and Rooibos Tea seems to work just as well.

    Dinah is confusing Rooibos tea with Brawndo.

  180. #181 maydijo
    February 14, 2011

    I kinda like the idea of colloidal silver turning everyone blue, it’d be nice to live in a world populated by Smurfs!

  181. #182 Dinah Everett Snyder
    February 14, 2011

    RE: Colloidal Silver benefits when ingested.

    There is a peer reviewed study that demonstrates no clear adverse reactions to ingestion as well as confirmation that it is not toxic to the body when ingested. The noted outcome is of course Argyria, which despite FDA claims to the contrary is not always a permamanent condition and can, over time be reversed. However, argyria is also extremely rare, with only a few ( under 50)documented cases in over i50 years of use. The recent, most publicized of the Argyria cases was falsely claimed as a result of Colloidal silver ingestion. It was not. The man was making his own product at home and was doing so incorrectly, ending up with something that was not CS and ingesting large quantities.

    However, using a spray mister of 10 ppm Colloidal Silver has been demonstrated to clear the strep virus in children who have already been identified as strep carriers with difficult to treat ( with antibiotics)strep virus. 5 spritzs and 48 hours later all tests for strep were neg and the children remained strep free after 3 months.

    CS has also been demonstrated to kill Listeria monocytogenes through a fine mist application.

    There is currently a test going on with oral misting of CS to treat gum disease topically, as well as a study with CS and MRSA strains.

    Note that the FDA has indeed made a final ruling on Colloidal Silver, stating, ” all OTC- drug products containing colloidal silver or silver salts are not recognized as safe and effective and are misbranded”.

    This is utter nonsense! as someone here pointed out
    ” Well established that silver is anti- microbial”

    Misbranded? well yes in that if one wants to say that CS treats syphillis, shingles, strep etc…well then CS must be ( under current rules and regulations) re branded as a drug BECAUSE according to the FDA, only “drugs” are allowed to treat, cure, mitigate, alleviate or prevent any illness known to mankind. ALL other things ( according to FDA) are “inert”, including food items, although in that category they do allow for the notion that items contain “calories”. No more and no less.

    Therefore, you may tell people to eat cherries, walnuts and soon oranges too,( see current Vit C and intravenous IV C issues) however if you tell someone to eat cherries/ walnuts/ oranges because they have( name your antioxidant or vitamin here, and link it to proven scientific benefits of said vitamin or antioxidant) well then, the FDA requires a rebranding of that item as a ” drug” and will accuse the seller of cherries, walnuts, oranges of ” misbranding” their produce because IF it cures, prevents, alleviates or mitigates then under current laws it cannot possibly be a food because foods are inert and only drugs have ingredients/ can cure.

    Now, gremlins et al, I know that you are going to nit pick this to eternity and back, however I want to caution you that these are not my words but the words directly from FDA in letters to cherry growers and walnut growers. Google at will and make sure to read the FDA letters and the growers responses. Diamond Foods is fighting back at the insanity of the FDA and their notions of drugs versus foods and the nonsense about ” inert”, which is probably how they can conceive of the notion that there is absolutely NO risk at ALL with ANY genetically modified foods whatsoever…I mean, if ALL food is ” inert” then there is no problem!
    Right?

    which is interesting because USDA has funded some pretty powerful studies supporting the benefits of many of the vitamins and antioxidants that the FDA is sending warning letters out about, and claiming are ” unscientific” or ” not scientifically proven” or ” misbranded if you claim the benefit and links to study of X Y or Z”.

    Most of our ” drugs” come from nature, however the ” drug” is a synthetic compound of the original, natural ingredient
    because only the synthetic compound can be patented.
    Therefore only the silver approved by the FDA ( belonging to some pharma corp)can possibly be the one that is okay !

    Artemisinin is a classic example, perhaps I should pause here, I wouldn’t want a google stampede……………..
    ……………………………..
    Dinah Everett Snyder

  182. #183 Gray Falcon
    February 14, 2011

    There is a peer reviewed study that demonstrates no clear adverse reactions to ingestion as well as confirmation that it is not toxic to the body when ingested.

    You have a reference for that study? You have to understand this, we can’t just take the word of a random stranger on the internet, we need references as well.

    Therefore, you may tell people to eat cherries, walnuts and soon oranges too,( see current Vit C and intravenous IV C issues) however if you tell someone to eat cherries/ walnuts/ oranges because they have( name your antioxidant or vitamin here, and link it to proven scientific benefits of said vitamin or antioxidant) well then, the FDA requires a rebranding of that item as a ” drug” and will accuse the seller of cherries, walnuts, oranges of ” misbranding” their produce because IF it cures, prevents, alleviates or mitigates then under current laws it cannot possibly be a food because foods are inert and only drugs have ingredients/ can cure.

    Have any examples? Of course, you could just say that one should automatically trust people you meet online. If so, then I have a bridge to sell you.

  183. #184 Heliantus
    February 14, 2011

    Red Cross staffers also use Rooibos Tea intravenously to combat dehydration and electrolyte inbalance in pediatric and geriatric patients in rural areas of Southern Africa, Namibia and Zimbabwe.

    When I was just starting at the University, one of my Biology teachers, a physician who apparently did a few stunts for Doctors without Borders, claimed that they sometimes used Coca-cola for this purpose (after degassing it, of course). For the same reasons: a reasonable amount of electrolytes, plenty of sugar, and clean, sterile water. And no shortage of it.
    For all I know, maybe he just passed on some urban legend to impress us kids.
    Of course, the use of Coca-cola, or Pepsi, or any other drink of choice, in lieu of IV bags is not exactly a validation (and neither a rebuttal) of whatever healthy effect this drink is supposed to have.

    Just a heads up, if every person who uses Colloidal Silver internally turned blue there would be millions of blue people walking around.

    The same could exactly be said for vaccines and whatever outrageous side-effect you want to blame them for. Millions of people had used vaccines.

    The fact that there are NOT millions of blue people walking around is a testament to the inaccuracy of your statement concerning the ingestion of CS

    Ditto your own statements about vaccines. Maybe we should stop talking black and white and start talking about risk/benefit ratio.

  184. #185 Dinah Everett Snyder
    February 14, 2011

    RE: Colloidal Silver benefits when ingested.

    There is a peer reviewed study that demonstrates no clear adverse reactions to ingestion as well as confirmation that it is not toxic to the body when ingested. The noted outcome is of course Argyria, which despite FDA claims to the contrary is not always a permamanent condition and can, over time be reversed. However, argyria is also extremely rare, with only a few ( under 50)documented cases in over i50 years of use. The recent, most publicized of the Argyria cases was falsely claimed as a result of Colloidal silver ingestion. It was not. The man was making his own product at home and was doing so incorrectly, ending up with something that was not CS and ingesting large quantities.

    However, using a spray mister of 10 ppm Colloidal Silver has been demonstrated to clear the strep virus in children who have already been identified as strep carriers with difficult to treat ( with antibiotics)strep virus. 5 spritzs and 48 hours later all tests for strep were neg and the children remained strep free after 3 months.

    CS has also been demonstrated to kill Listeria monocytogenes through a fine mist application.

    There is currently a test going on with oral misting of CS to treat gum disease topically, as well as a study with CS and MRSA strains.

    Note that the FDA has indeed made a final ruling on Colloidal Silver, stating, ” all OTC- drug products containing colloidal silver or silver salts are not recognized as safe and effective and are misbranded”.

    This is utter nonsense! as someone here pointed out
    ” Well established that silver is anti- microbial”

    Misbranded? well yes in that if one wants to say that CS treats syphillis, shingles, strep etc…well then CS must be ( under current rules and regulations) re branded as a drug BECAUSE according to the FDA, only “drugs” are allowed to treat, cure, mitigate, alleviate or prevent any illness known to mankind. ALL other things ( according to FDA) are “inert”, including food items, although in that category they do allow for the notion that items contain “calories”. No more and no less.

    Therefore, you may tell people to eat cherries, walnuts and soon oranges too,( see current Vit C and intravenous IV C issues) however if you tell someone to eat cherries/ walnuts/ oranges because they have( name your antioxidant or vitamin here, and link it to proven scientific benefits of said vitamin or antioxidant) well then, the FDA requires a rebranding of that item as a ” drug” and will accuse the seller of cherries, walnuts, oranges of ” misbranding” their produce because IF it cures, prevents, alleviates or mitigates then under current laws it cannot possibly be a food because foods are inert and only drugs have ingredients/ can cure.

    Now, gremlins et al, I know that you are going to nit pick this to eternity and back, however I want to caution you that these are not my words but the words directly from FDA in letters to cherry growers and walnut growers. Google at will and make sure to read the FDA letters and the growers responses. Diamond Foods is fighting back at the insanity of the FDA and their notions of drugs versus foods and the nonsense about ” inert”, which is probably how they can conceive of the notion that there is absolutely NO risk at ALL with ANY genetically modified foods whatsoever…I mean, if ALL food is ” inert” then there is no problem!
    Right?

    which is interesting because USDA has funded some pretty powerful studies supporting the benefits of many of the vitamins and antioxidants that the FDA is sending warning letters out about, and claiming are ” unscientific” or ” not scientifically proven” or ” misbranded if you claim the benefit and links to study of X Y or Z”.

    Most of our ” drugs” come from nature, however the ” drug” is a synthetic compound of the original, natural ingredient
    because only the synthetic compound can be patented.
    Therefore only the silver approved by the FDA ( belonging to some pharma corp)can possibly be the one that is okay !

    Artemisinin is a classic example, perhaps I should pause here, I wouldn’t want a google stampede……………..
    ……………………………..
    Dinah Everett Snyder

  185. #186 AnthonyK
    February 14, 2011

    Frankly, if this site is any indication of what they are letting out of medical school these days then the public is in more danger than anyone realizes.

    Frankly, if your posts are any indications of what passes for sane these days, bring back the loony bins!
    Oh, so much entertainment from so little intelligence. Hey, I bet you think 9/11 was an inside job, evolution is impossible, and global warming is a fraud (do tell!)
    So here’s the headline counteracting your “gardasil hasn’t been tested on 9-year-olds” bollocks (thanks DRK)

    Main Results: Approximately 94% of these reports were non-serious. The most frequently reported adverse events were syncope, dizziness, nausea, headache, and injection site reactions. The overall safety profile described in VAERS was consistent with prelicensure data, with 2 notable exceptions.

    Full study available @158.
    Thanks, Dinah, you are providing pure joy for us posters here, currently on a lean diet of dim augie, intellectually-challenged sid offit, and unutterably slimy Dr Jay.
    Please, please, please continue – you are, literally, priceless.
    And do inform us when/if your ahem, snort book comes out; we all most interested….

  186. #187 Chris
    February 14, 2011

    Ms. Snyder, you need to get two things into your head:

    1: We will believe you made up everything you write out of thin air unless you provide actual evidence. I am particularly interested in the study that replicated Wakefield’s findings in Australia.

    2: We have no intention of every buying your book. You have not shown any credence or knowledge of the subject.

    So either put up or shut up.

  187. #188 herr doktor bimler
    February 14, 2011

    However, argyria is also extremely rare

    Dinah, don’t feel obliged to make up egregious bullshit about every single topic you shift the conversation to while running away from your egregious bullshit on some other topic. You are allowed to tell the truth occasionally and no-one will think any less of you. This is not a challenge.

  188. #189 Heliantus
    February 14, 2011

    However, using a spray mister of 10 ppm Colloidal Silver has been demonstrated to clear the strep virus in children who have already been identified as strep carriers with difficult to treat ( with antibiotics)strep virus.

    Err…
    If it is a virus, antibiotics are of no use anyway.
    If by strep, you mean Streptococcus pneumoniae, it’s a bacterium.
    If it’s a spray mister, to treat the bacteria fauna of the throat, where “strep” is usually a concern, I could be wrong but I would still rank this as topical application, not as ingested.

    Misbranded? …[long rant about FDA wanting a clear cut between drugs and food stuff]

    Are you claiming that colloidal silver is a natural food?

  189. #190 Dinah Everett Snyder
    February 14, 2011

    No, I am not confusing Rooibos Tea for Brawndo, and in the field staffers use what they have, boil up the tea, it was in IV bags and I did see dict tape…no idea about the brew to IV bag dynamic and how they got it in there! My first experience of Colloidal Silver was in Zimbabwe, watching a staffer making it at a Leprosy clinic.
    Rooibos Tea has an earthy taste, full of antioxidants that the cosmetics industry has cashed in on. The tea is now found in Origins cosmetics and was clinically tested at Estee Lauder for inclussion in their Clinique line a long time ago. The South African brand name cosmetics line for Rooibos Tea is Annique. The tea is indigenous to many areas of Southern Africa, predominantly the region around Cape Town. Locals use the tea as an all purpose health drink and it has a long history, dating back to the Boer War. It is used extensively in hospital settings as a means to combat upset tummies in dysentry patients and those with malaria because of it’s antioxidant and healthful properties.

    Funny thing about Coco Cola, I pour it down the toilet to remove hard water stains. Works like a charm. Personally I would never drink it though.

    Dinah Everett Snyder

  190. #191 Aaron
    February 14, 2011

    Dinah,

    “here is a peer reviewed study that demonstrates no clear adverse reactions to ingestion as well as confirmation that it is not toxic to the body when ingested. ”

    This sounds like an interesting article. Can you show me the citation so I can look it up? Thank you.

  191. #192 sqlrob
    February 14, 2011

    There is a peer reviewed study that demonstrates no clear adverse reactions to ingestion as well as confirmation that it is not toxic to the body when ingested

    [Citation needed]

    You still haven’t posted the studies from the other, so every time you say “studies say”, you will be ignored unless you actually provide the reference.

  192. #193 Candy
    February 14, 2011

    It’s becoming quite clear that Dinah does not know what a “citation” is.

  193. #194 Dinah Everett Snyder
    February 14, 2011

    I submit that herr doktor needs to go and do some err fact checking of herr.. I mean his..own.
    and AnthonyK: the Gardasil document says it is monitoring the various age groups/ symptoms etc etc etc now, 2.5 years into making it available/ post FDA approval,
    however my point is that there was NO study done prior to FDA approval for 9 year old. The youngest participants in the trial were 15….don’t obfiscate the issue, those are simply the facts, not mine, the ones in the FDA approval notification and the facts as reported in the Gardasil pamphlet.

    And the last time I checked, strep was a bacteria,and yes, a spray mist application would be considered a topical application and is reported as such for this study. I would also like to point out that I never claimed oral ingestion as an exclusive terrain. Although it has been used to treat chronic oral thrush and in that case is used as a gargle and swallow, which clearly makes it an oral ingestion.
    The MRSA study uses CS internally and topically and Malaria is treated by ingesting CS.

    Dinah Everett Snyder

  194. #195 Militant Agnostic
    February 14, 2011

    Dinah – Unlike the narrow minded pharma shills here, these Canadian entrepreneurs were willing to give colloidal silver a fair hearing.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHL6L9i2AWA

    They give this colloidal silver advocate the respect he deserves.

  195. #196 Chris
    February 14, 2011

    Ms. Snyder, you will be considered either a liar or just delusional until you post evidence for your claims. Please post the cites that we have requested.

    Or go away.

    Put up, or shut up.

  196. #197 Peebs
    February 14, 2011

    I fear Ms Snyder has missed her true calling.

    She should be employed as a groundskeeper at a football (soccer) stadium.

    Her ability to move goalposts is awe inspiring.Mind you, there’s more money in snake oil.

  197. #198 han
    February 14, 2011

    Dinah is confusing Rooibos tea with Brawndo.

    It’s got what cranks crave!

  198. #199 Julian
    February 14, 2011

    Hey, Dinah, Nazis murdered most of my ancestors, often by performing vile medical experiments on them, including vivisection (dissecting people while still alive). My grandmother was the only survivor out of 7 siblings, 17 first cousins, 20 aunts and uncles, her parents and grandparents and more. They attempted to genocide several groups of people.

    Could you do me a HUGE favor and stop throwing Nazi and Hitler references around casually? You know, for the sake of my murdered ancestors? Some of whom were hunted through woods at night with dogs and guns or used as target practice or burnt alive? Could you do that for me? Please?

    Because it’s harmful, it’s disrespectful, and it severely diminishes actual history and actual human suffering that actually happened. To my ancestors. To my grandmother, who wore long sleeves every single day of her entire life from her release from the camps to hide the number indelibly inked into her flesh. To me. To every single Jewish and Roma person.

    Or, you know, just keep exposing your fucking ignorance. Whichever.

  199. #200 Dinah Everett Snyder
    February 14, 2011

    Candy; it is evident that you just don’t understand, I am not going to cite the Wakefield things here, as for the FDA documentation re ” cherries and walnuts” ” inert”
    ” misbranded” : it is available ad nauseum on the FDA website…go find it. For the Colloidal Silver: the CS sites have posted their FDA warning letters for the world to see and more on that is also available on the FDA website.
    As for the studies on CS,( oral thrush, strep) they are current clinical trials, and no gremlins, I am not involved with the studies, I just have prelims of what is in progress….the CS gum disease study is available online…go find it. Syphillis has already been established, as has Malaria and Leprosy treatment protocols.

    Strep and CS is already an accepted protocol in third world countries as is the use of CS to treat oral and body sores and boils in HIV Aids patients.

    Gosh, such a lather about citations ! Do you all wait for your patients to give up their diagnosis too, before you write that acceptable prescription for acceptable treatment….
    or do ye all just wing it?

    Which reminds me: Mr. Deer posted somewhere above, nothing original, just a citation from BMJ…how droll..
    fitting though. He never struck me as much of anything. For a journalist he has a peculiar lack of conversational skills…perhaps that is why he is such a useful pet for concerned parties. The perfect patsy is one who has no original thoughts. Did a good article on Septrin though, not bad follow up either. All things considered.

    here is a tidbit:( about autism folks, do keep up)
    Dr Bernadine Healy ( former director of National Institute of Health) said, ” Govt, or health officials within govt, have been too quick to dismiss the concerns of these families, without studying the population that got sick”.
    And let us not forget this, from the govt ruling or
    ” concession” in Hannah Polings case “Mitochondrial dysfunction exacerbated by vaccine fever and immune stimulation”. Of course in her case she managed to get several vaccines on the same day….. sounds like a clear case of medical misconduct to me. And a hocus pocus word jargon from govt vaccine council to boot.
    That’s it gremlins, I am off to a Valentine dinner sans GMO commodities or Coco Cola. And my Colloidal Silver spray in my purse should I be coughed on by some dimwit.

    Being that I am a believer in pre ventative medicine, as opposed to a pharma band aid.

    Dinah Everett Snyder.

  200. #201 Chris
    February 14, 2011

    More unsupported flights of fancy from Dinah.

    What part of “put up or shut up” to you fail to understand.

  201. #202 Candy
    February 14, 2011

    Dinah, you’re an idiot. It’s really that simple. Why should we have to look up the citations you asserted existed? You’re a mendacious liar, a goal post-shifting dishonest twit, and obviously a believer in every crank idea that comes down the turnpike. Your books will probably make quality door-stops, though.

  202. #203 Babs
    February 14, 2011

    So here are some studies listed as replicating wakefields results…… F. Balzola et al “Panenteric IBD-like disease in a patient with regressive autism show for the first time by wireless capsule Enteroscopy: Another piece in the Jig-saw of the gut-brain sundrome?” American Journal of Gastroenterology 2005 100(4): 979-981 L Gonzalez, K. Lopez, D. Navarro et al “Endoscopic & Histological characteristics of the digestive mucosa in Autistic children with gastro-intestinal symptoms” Arch Venez Pueric Pediatr 2005 69: 19-25 S. Walker, K. Hepner, J. Segal & A. Krigsman “Persistant Ileal Measles virus in a large cohort of regressive autistic children” (IMFAR May 2007)

  203. #204 Chris
    February 14, 2011

    Babs, we have seen those studies, and they are not independent replications. Why would you think that Krigsman, a colleague of Wakefield would be independent? And which one was from Australia? Dinah claims there is one from Australia. Did someone lose it?

    Anyway, those were all debunked ages ago here.

    Babs, next time make sure to cite the study and why it is:

    a) Independent. That means that Wakefield and none of his associates, like Krigsman, are involved.

    b) Have a similar set of cases. This means children (not adults like the some on the list), and include at least the same number, preferably more than twelve.

    c) List which MMR vaccine was being investigated. If you check, you will see that measles is not even mentioned. It should be either the one approved in the UK before or after 1992.

    d) Must be full published papers, not IMFAR posters.

    Please try again with those guidelines.

  204. #205 Candy
    February 14, 2011

    Babs, could you provide some links? I Googled that last study in your list and the only thing that came up was a link to some crank mentioning it on The Jenny McCarthy Body Count Facebook page. The first study you mentioned had several hits that stated it has been debunked.Supporting sites for that study were Age of Autism and Mothering; not impressive. I admit these were quick Googles and it would be most helpful if you would provide actual links to the studies themselves.

    This is interesting: http://www.topix.com/forum/source/york-daily-record/TQHV9SO44V49OV6HI

  205. #206 Calli Arcale
    February 14, 2011

    Dinah:

    And the last time I checked, strep was a bacteria,and yes, a spray mist application would be considered a topical application and is reported as such for this study. I would also like to point out that I never claimed oral ingestion as an exclusive terrain. Although it has been used to treat chronic oral thrush and in that case is used as a gargle and swallow, which clearly makes it an oral ingestion.

    No, that would also be a topical application, because it’s meant to work exactly where it is applied, not by passing though the gut and into the bloodstream. I’ll grant that if swallowed, it is being taken internally, but I rather suspect it’s the rinsing and gargling that’s useful and you’d get the same benefit (without the risks) if you spit it out afterwards.

    I have no doubt whatsoever that silver (colloidal or otherwise) is an effective antiseptic; it’s been used for that purpose quite effectively for a long time. It’s pretty lethal to a lot of organisms. But why drink it? Chlorine’s an effective antiseptic too, and I have no intention whatsoever of drinking it. Most antiseptics are fairly stupid things to drink, actually — it’s rare for something to be deadly to pathogens and harmless to human tissues.

    BTW, what’s so special about it being colloidal? Colloids are not unusual substances, really. I have a sneaky suspicion it’s a bit like “quantum” — it sounds impressive to the scientifically illiterate. Making it into a colloid just makes it easier to drink, just like Nyquil and other drugs in liquid formulation. Has very nearly zip-doodle to do with its chemical properties.

  206. #207 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 14, 2011

    I thank Babs for at least trying to provide citations, though, as opposed to Dinah who thinks that for some reason, we should be trusting her unsupported word that Wakefield’s results have been replicated. That, after she mistook the percentage of mercury in thimerosal for the percentage of mercury in the entire suspension liquid of a flu vaccine.

  207. #208 Matthew Cline
    February 14, 2011

    @Dinah Everett Snyder:

    it is evident that you just don’t understand, I am not going to cite the Wakefield things here,

    You’re going to cite them somewhere else, just not here? Why cite them over there (wherever “there” is) yet not here?

    Also, you phrase that as if it’s obvious you’re not going to be citing them here. What have you said to make that obvious (other than not answering after being asked many times)?

    Oh, and since that question is off the table, how about this question: what in the world does silver being used in mechanisms on the space shuttle have to do with silver being used as an antibacterial?

    Gosh, such a lather about citations ! Do you all wait for your patients to give up their diagnosis too, before you write that acceptable prescription for acceptable treatment….

    So…. Asking you for citations is like a doctor asking his/her patient for a diagnosis (a professional asking her client to do the professional’s work for her)? Or asking you for citations is like a person seeing a drug advertised on TV, demanding that drug from the doctor, and the doctor just handing over a prescription for the drug, with the doctor then working backwards from drug to diagnosis?

    Anyways, us asking your for citations is basically us saying “we don’t believe you, provide us with some evidence”.

    He never struck me as much of anything. For a journalist he has a peculiar lack of conversational skills…perhaps that is why he is such a useful pet for concerned parties. The perfect patsy is one who has no original thoughts.

    1) Genuine investigative reporters have good conversational skills.
    2) Brian Deer doesn’t have good conversational skills.
    3) Thus, Brian Deer isn’t a genuine investigative reporter.

    Did a good article on Septrin though, not bad follow up either. All things considered.

    If Deer is a patsy with no original thoughts, who hired him to do his article on Septrin?

    Being that I am a believer in pre ventative medicine, as opposed to a pharma band aid.

    That’s a bit of a non-sequitur, since the only thing you’ve mentioned that could be considered preventative medicine is anti-oxidants.

  208. #209 Gray Falcon
    February 14, 2011

    The perfect patsy is one who has no original thoughts.

    If I suggested that you were, in fact, a vampire, that would be original. Useless and unprovable, but still original.

    That’s a bit of a non-sequitur, since the only thing you’ve mentioned that could be considered preventative medicine is anti-oxidants.

    Don’t vaccines count as preventative medicine?

  209. #210 Matthew Cline
    February 14, 2011

    @Gray Falcon:

    Don’t vaccines count as preventative medicine?

    Yes, but she said “as opposed to a pharma band aid”, so since vaccines are made by pharma I assumed she didn’t mean to include vaccines when she talked about preventative medicine.

  210. #211 herr doktor bimler
    February 15, 2011

    BTW, what’s so special about [silver] being colloidal?

    It’s less useful that way. For reals. All the studies where silver has documented antimicrobial uses, they’re talking about silver ions (i.e. a salt of some form) rather than in its elemental form (e.g. colloidal) when it’s inert and has no effect except on your skin pigmentation.

  211. #212 Matthew Cline
    February 15, 2011

    All the studies where silver has documented antimicrobial uses, they’re talking about silver ions (i.e. a salt of some form) rather than in its elemental form (e.g. colloidal) when it’s inert and has no effect except on your skin pigmentation.

    To play devil’s advocate, the microscopic silver particles will have to be turned into ions by the stomach acid in order to pass through intestinal wall, so it winds up being ions by the time it gets into the blood.

    On the other hand, it would make colloidal silver not very effective for topical treatments.

    (Also, I wonder why they sell it colloidal form. Wouldn’t it be cheaper to dissolve the silver with some acids rather than grinding the silver down into microscopic particles?)

  212. #213 Composer99
    February 15, 2011

    Dinah, quite apart from the burden of proof being on the person making positive claims (such as yours regarding papers replicating Wakefield’s findings), it is an easy way to move goalposts (not that you haven’t been doing that already) to simply handwave ‘go Google it’ at others.

    If people go to any effort to search for papers, they can find a few that appear to support your position, post them and explain what is good or bad about their methods, data, etc., and then watch as you move the goalposts and say ‘oh, those weren’t the papers I was talking about!’ Rinse and repeat.

    If you want to be taken at all seriously on this blog:

    (1) Provide citations, preferably to PubMed listed papers, to back up any positive claims you make regarding medical procedures and products (e.g. ‘vaccines cause autism/other disorders’, ‘vaccines contain 50% mercury’, ‘Gardasil is bad’, ‘colloidal silver cures flu’, that sort of thing – not that you’ve made any of those specific claims, necessarily – but you’ve made similar ones and failed to back them up).

    (2) If you are going to criticize people like Paul Offit or Brian Deer, you should proceed by showing that their data or methods are faulty, or that their conclusions do not follow from their data & methods. Implying their claims are false by making unsubstantiated assertions or character attacks simply won’t cut it. You’ll notice that when Orac or commenters here are at the point where they’re ridiculing someone (such as yourself), it’s come after they’ve collected and presented evidence of ridicule-worthiness (such as your current contributions to the thread).

  213. #214 herr doktor bimler
    February 15, 2011

    Prometheus:

    It doesn’t work, of course, but it’s not nearly as toxic as, say, injecting hydrogen peroxide. And aren’t these “alternative” practitioners the same clowns who sell “anti-oxidants” in their shops?

    From the Google I learned that a lot of the alt-health loons who are poisoning themselves with household bleach (alias Magical Mineral Supplement) because it is a powerful oxidant that will selectively kill all pathogens (but not healthy cells) are also taking DMSO. Because it’s an anti-oxidant.

    It’s all about the cargo cult. Sometimes they call this a ‘drug cocktail’ and sometimes a ‘protocol’.

    Wouldn’t it be cheaper to dissolve the silver with some acids rather than grinding the silver down into microscopic particles?

    My understanding of the process is that the silver is not made into a colloid mechanically. Some people use an electrolytic process: the silver starts on one electrode, where it’s ionised; the ions come back out of solution at the other electrode where they’re neutralised and clump into colloid particles with other ions doing the same thing. Others start with silver nitrate and neutralise it with sodium hydroxide. So the colloid has a high surface area, like a catalytic converter, which is possibly part of the appeal.

  214. #215 Chemmomo
    February 15, 2011

    @Matthew Cline

    To play devil’s advocate, the microscopic silver particles will have to be turned into ions by the stomach acid

    Actually, that’s kind of unlikely. Stomach acid is basically HCl, about pH = 1. Silver isn’t oxidized by HCl.
    When HCl does react with metals, the acid protons become reduced, creating hydrogen gas (H2) (which brings to my mind the amusing image of ingesting metal, burping, then setting the burps on fire. Never mind).

    However, there’s an “Activity Series” for metals based on reduction potentials (http://chemistry.about.com/od/chartstables/a/Activity-Series-Of-Metals.htm). Metals, plus Hydrogen, are ranked in order of reactivity: those at the top of the list are prone to oxidation (getting turned into ions), and will be oxidized by metals below them on the list (resulting in the reduction of said metals back to their elemental form). Those metals at the bottom of the list tend to stay reduced (e.g, elemental).

    Hydrogen is above silver on the list: Silver will not reduce HCl protons. In fact, Silver is near the bottom: it’s just not very reactive. Gee, I wonder if that fact has anything to do with the fact that many uses of metallic silver are simply ornamental?

    Oh, and the fact that’s it’s “colloidal” silver is just describing the physical state of the element (such as solid, liquid, or gas). When an element is ionized, the ion will be water soluble, and it won’t need to be be prepared as a colloid.

  215. #216 Matthew Cline
    February 15, 2011

    @Chemmomo:

    Actually, that’s kind of unlikely. Stomach acid is basically HCl, about pH = 1. Silver isn’t oxidized by HCl.

    So when someone gets blue skin from ingesting too much colloidal silver, that’s entirely from the silver ions already present in the liquid, with the silver particles simply passing through the digestive system? Huh.

  216. #217 mistermuz
    February 15, 2011

    If nothing else, all this silver talk has some gold in the midst:

    “I have never encountered such a pack of hyennas, of course maggots all stick to the same piece of rotting meat, and birds of a feather will flock together. So do baboons…”

    Ya hear that you bunch of…swarming bees! You need to be more like fish and hang out in a school, not snap at the heels like a lone shark, chased by the dolphins of truth into the nets of the Japanese trawlers of Fate!
    You bunch of seagulls, stealling the chips of honest labour from lions like Andrew Wakefield. Lions beset by mites like you and Brian Deer, trying to rob him of his mane through mange. But we can cure mange with our Colloidal Silver and Rooibos tea. And we will corral you herds of Deer to be left at the mercy of the Grizzly’s of valour and the Ted Nugents of faith…I sort of forgot what I was talking about.

  217. #218 Dinah Everett Snyder
    February 15, 2011

    Dear ” Julian”,
    Before your knee jerk reaction you should have gone back and read my post. If you had you may have noticed the sarcasm applied to the statement” FDA has issued a final ruling on the inappropriateness of using this compound in any ingested medicine”. “Hail Hitler” was MY sarcastic reply to the FDA ” final ruling”.

    Having said that, it may interest you ( or not) to know that I am Jewish and also lost family in Germany, and Poland, and Kiev. My Yiddish is quite profound although my Afrikaans is better.

    This knee jerk must stop….not sure if you have watched any of the Holocaust stories currently in overdrive to preserve them before the last survivors pass on, but, in one of them there is a lovely old lady who talks about how holding onto the knee jerk mentality gives away ones power, and that if there is one thing she learnt through all of her experiences it is that the only thing they could not take away was what she held within her heart. And in her heart she vowed to never ever react to ignorance. She went on to say that all her life she has held onto that notion of letting go: of anger, of hate, of fear, of reaction and specifically mentioned the knee jerk reaction of the young.
    Well, for her everyone was young ( actually those were her words too) She was 97 and attributed her longivity to living life to the fullest and not holding grudges ( based on the above.)Nelson Mandella said much the same during his presidential festivities.
    I believe her name was Ivy though I don’t remember her last name. I remembered her name because ivy ( the plant) is like that, tenacious….

    It may also interest you to know that I have met several elderly ladies who refused chemo treatment for their breast cancer, saying that using the chemo would be horrific because the treatments involved using products that had been tested ( and used) on Jewish prisoners of war in the concentration camps. The elderly ladies preferred a death of ” dignity” rather than a death of ” betrayal” towards their lost kin.
    So, next time you pop an asprin made by Bayer you think on that.
    And for the rest of you: the Bayer of today can be traced back to the IG Farben Industry, whose members were tried for Crimes Against Humanity by a special Tribunal at Nuremburg in 1945.
    The United States and other Allies developed the Agreement for the Prosecution and Punishment of the Major War Criminals of the European Axis and Charter of the International Military Tribunal overseen by General Telford Taylor, US Chief Prosecutor.

    There are official transcripts from the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal Against the Oil and Drug Cartel available online and they number in the thousands.

    Hence the name of my book (FDA) Crimes Against Humanity which follows the charter as outlined in the tribunal et al.

    And while you may howl, snap, snarl and rip apart my writing skills or lack thereof please understand that I simply cannot part with citations because they are integral to my book. So, ” put up or shut up” is what I believe the words were, correct?

    In that case I guess I will leave, leaving all the
    ” techies and lab rats” to continue their stumble through the dark as they babble on about the finer points of what the hell constitutes Colloidal Silver…..ah yes! the great minds…at work again !

    Carry on, at ease gremlins…lordy! what a bunch!

    though some of you have turned out to be quite elegant off the forum. In case you missed it, you may contact me directly:

    dinaheverettsnyder@hotmail.com

    And Julian, I really am sorry that you were so offended, it was not my intent.

    okay Orac, I assume that I have now fulfilled the finer points as laid out in your disclaimer of: information is for discussion and entertainment purposes only,

    therby fulfilling your humble bowing and scraping to FDA whether in fact you realize it or not.
    ” not intended to diagnose, treat, mitigate or cure”

    Tsk tsk
    I really did want to tell you about Artemisinin, most especially since you mention cancer so often in your bio
    but honestly, based on your title piece re Alt meds frankly this may be too much, even for you. Pity.

    I particularly loved the WarCraft pieces popping up sporadically, they were superb.

    Dinah Everett Snyder.

  218. #219 Forbidden Snowflake
    February 15, 2011

    it may interest you ( or not) to know that I am Jewish

    I get it about destroying stereotypes and all, but did you have to start with the one about the Jews being smart?

  219. #220 Matthew Cline
    February 15, 2011

    @Dinah Everett Snyder:

    please understand that I simply cannot part with citations because they are integral to my book.

    First, we aren’t asking for all of the citations in your book. We’re asking for citations for a few specific things, namely the research papers you claim duplicate Wakefield’s work. Surely the citations regarding Wakefield’s research don’t form such a large portion of all your citations that you’d be giving away the majority of your citations?

    Second, if you’ve signed a contract giving a publisher right of first publication, I rather doubt that they’d be bothered by you giving some of the citations from your book (or even all of them). If that’s what worrying you, you should ask your publisher/agent about that, since being unable to give any citations when arguing about things like this is rather like fighting with one hand tied behind your back.

  220. #221 Forbidden Snowflake
    February 15, 2011

    Also: Julian was right. Your casual comparison of someone who cited the FDA as an authority on health to a Nazi WAS indeed trivializing the Holocaust. The correct thing to do at that point would be to apologize. Instead, you chose to castigate Julian for reacting to your remark (no, the fact that it was sarcasm doesn’t really change the fact that it was stupid and inappropriate) and for daring to hold a resentment against the Nazis for murdering hir relatives (WTF???), and ended with a snide and arrogant not-pology.

    Protip:
    “I’m sorry I offended you” = apology
    “I’m sorry you were offended” = not an apology (not-pology)

    What seems to be your chronic inability to accept criticism in stride is impeding you not only from correcting your misconceptions about science, but from being a more decent person.

  221. #222 Mojo
    February 15, 2011

    I simply cannot part with citations because they are integral to my book.

    You do realise what is being asked for, don’t you? Just references for published research that is available to anyone with a subscription to the journals concerned (in some cases they may even be available free). All they should be doing in the book is supporting the statements you make in the book. If anything is “integral to [your] book”, it is your own arguments, not the external sources the book uses. You seem quite happy to post your own statements here, but claim that the external citations you use to support them cannot be revealed?

    All this looks like is “I have evidence but it’s a secret”.

  222. #223 Poodle Stomper
    February 15, 2011

    I think anyone here can see what’s going on. Dinah had some references which she thought were awesome. Then she realized that they had been addressed here before and simply do not uphold her position, leaving her with nothing more than her conspiracy theories. Logically, she doesn’t want to reveal them anymore for fear of being (rightfully) laughed at. It’s pretty simple.

    @Dinah, in the world of science evidence is everything. Simply prancing about shouting “the sky is falling” doesn’t amount to much. Many people here on this blog are scientists of one sort or another and would be willing to take a look at references if you have them. The fact that you are unwilling to provide even simple links to journals makes it so very clear that you have nothing. It’s more than a bit hypocritical that you bash others for supposedly going ahead without evidence (Gardasil) when you yourself are doing just that. So please tell us why you think you should be taken seriously?

    (PS I have secret evidence that aliens in the form of Andrew Wakefield and Jenny are plotting to take over the idiot population of this planet. Just believe me. I have the evidence but I can’t share it. You believe me, right?)

  223. #224 Orac
    February 15, 2011

    There are official transcripts from the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal Against the Oil and Drug Cartel available online and they number in the thousands.

    Hence the name of my book (FDA) Crimes Against Humanity which follows the charter as outlined in the tribunal et al.

    And while you may howl, snap, snarl and rip apart my writing skills or lack thereof please understand that I simply cannot part with citations because they are integral to my book.

    Hilarious!

    Seriously, Dinah, that is the single most pathetic excuse I’ve ever heard for not providing even a single citation. In fact, it’s beyond pathetic and, from my perspective, more than adequate justification for having a hearty chuckle at you and your cluelessness.

    Put up or shut up. You bore me now.

  224. #225 Beamup
    February 15, 2011

    Let’s also note that if providing citations is so integral to the book that they can’t be given in this context, said book would be quite pointless.

    In a real book, the citations are used only to support the arguments made in the text. If there ARE no arguments in the text, just regurgitation of citations, then there’s no reason for the book to exist.

  225. #226 Matthew Cline
    February 15, 2011

    @Orac:

    Seriously, Dinah, that is the single most pathetic excuse I’ve ever heard for not providing even a single citation.

    What are some of the most amusing ones you’ve heard?

  226. #227 Pablo
    February 15, 2011

    All the studies where silver has documented antimicrobial uses, they’re talking about silver ions (i.e. a salt of some form) rather than in its elemental form (e.g. colloidal) when it’s inert and has no effect except on your skin pigmentation

    In fact, as chemmomo hints above, the only way silver is any way reactive is if it is in its ionic state. Just as elemental silbver really doesn’t want to lose its electron (its why silver stays shiny (and gold, fwiw)) the ion wants to get it back. That makes it highly reactive but it only applies to the ion.

    To put it technically, silver ion is a great oxidizing agent, and that is a very effective way to kill microbes (by oxidizing them). Metalic silver, colloidal or whatever, does not have any reactivity that would make one expect it to kill bacteria. There is no mehanism for it to happen.

    Then again, this is a common perspective of cranks. To put it simply, they believe in magic. Acupuncture? It’s magic! (To be fair, some try to propose scientific mechanisms; of course, when they test it, thewy find that supposed acupuncture doesn’t work by these mechanisms, and the things that do aren’t acupuncture). Homeopathy? No physical mechanism, its magic. Colloidal silver? Magical.

  227. #228 Calli Arcale
    February 15, 2011

    Matthew Cline @ 204:

    All the studies where silver has documented antimicrobial uses, they’re talking about silver ions (i.e. a salt of some form) rather than in its elemental form (e.g. colloidal) when it’s inert and has no effect except on your skin pigmentation.

    It’s right up there with confusing elemental mercury for Thimerosal, really.

    (Also, I wonder why they sell it colloidal form. Wouldn’t it be cheaper to dissolve the silver with some acids rather than grinding the silver down into microscopic particles?)

    I am now quite convinced that it’s for marketing reasons. “Colloid” sounds very sciency and advanced, but it’s not a word you hear used much in pharmaceuticals, even though so many pharmaceuticals *are* in a colloidal preparation — it’s a bit like trumpeting that silver nitrate is an ionic compound. True, but to anybody with much of a chemistry background, pretty trivial.

    There’s also the fact that making a colloidal silver preparation is somewhat complicated, so it becomes a sort of magic, much like homeopathy. Complicated placebos are generally more effective than simple ones.

  228. #229 Matthew Cline
    February 15, 2011

    @Pablo:

    To put it technically, silver ion is a great oxidizing agent, and that is a very effective way to kill microbes (by oxidizing them).

    But bacteria can develop resistance to silver. Can bacteria develop resistance to oxidizing agents?

  229. #230 Pablo
    February 15, 2011

    But bacteria can develop resistance to silver. Can bacteria develop resistance to oxidizing agents?

    They have to increase their own oxidation potentials significantly, especially in the regions that silver accesses. Basically, what I would expect to happen is that they end up having those regions of the proteins selected for hydrocarbon side chains.

    Note that the difference between Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria is in whether they can be oxidized by peroxide (at least, that is my understanding of it – regardless of whether that is specifically Gram pos or Gram neg I don’t always remember, but ultimately some bacteria will be oxidized by peroxide and others are not)

  230. #231 Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP
    February 15, 2011

    This discussion of silver is excellent and enlightening. Thank you Matthew and Pablo.

    Jay

  231. #232 Heliantus
    February 15, 2011

    So, to summarize the precedent episodes

    Dinah shows up and tells us that Wakefield’s results have been replicated, without doing the obvious thing, pointing to the article.
    Then she spouts more shocking revelations, again without any support.
    (what? medical teams from humanitarian societies using local resources in remote areas? Shocking, I tell you)
    Then she insists on the benefits of drinking colloidal silver, and justifies it by pointing at the use of silver as an antiseptic, or as a coolant by the NASA.
    Incidentally, for someone so knowledgeable on microbes, she is swapping virus for bacterium, and doesn’t seem to realize why this is a big deal. One is precise or one is not.
    And finally, when Julian was sort of upset of Dinah going for the Godwin award, she retorts what he shouldn’t make a big deal of this and should just forget and do not hold any grudge (just like this sweet old lady), and she keep digging deeper by revealing shocking facts about IG Farben, Bayer, and more (so much for not holding grudges).
    Hint, Dinah. Look at Orac’s favorite blogs, on the left. The ones in the category “Combating Holocaust Denial”. Look at the non-medical topics Orac was blogging about. Do you really think that the regular readers here don’t know about IG Farben?

    I’m sorry, but there is nothing news in what you are spouting. The shock value is fading away.

    One of your goals coming here was obviously to look smart, stunning us with your deep knowledge of real life.
    For confusing us and keep moving the topic, you are good. If you have a cat, I am sure you are confusing it regularly. It’s good for its health.
    But as for looking smart. I suggest you reassess your strategy.

  232. #233 JohnV
    February 15, 2011

    @Pablo and Matthew

    I hope I’m misinterpreting or missed something and I really apologize if that’s the case because it’s going to make the next sentence sound really condescending :P

    Gram positive and Gram negative refers to the absence or presence of an outer membrane around a bacterium. The term derives from a staining protocol. Phylogenetically speaking, mycoplasmas (which lack a cell wall) and mycobacteria/corynebacteria (which have funky cell walls) group with the Gram positive bacteria. There are also a couple of members of the genus Clostridium (Gram positive) which have a sort of outer membrane.

    The rest of this I’m recalling from papers and old coursework that I don’t have ready access to, but I’ll work on cites when I can.

    Bacteria face significant danger from super oxide radicals (O2-), which are normally generated as byproducts of metabolism or generated by other microbes trying to jack them.

    Superoxide radicals can be neutralized by super oxide dismutase. While not all bacteria encode SOD, it can be found in both Gram-negative and Gram-positive bacteria.

    SOD sticks the superoxide radical onto a water molecule forming hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) which is less damaging to the cell than superoxide radicals. H2O2 can be further detoxified by catalase or peroxidases that convert it to H2O + O2.

    To answer the question about bacteria developing resistance to oxidative stress, I don’t know how often de novo resistance mechanisms pop up, but one can imagine mutations that will increase the resistance provided by an existing system.

  233. #234 Johnny
    February 15, 2011

    I’d be willing to bet that Dinah is using her book as her reference. Her reference is the book, and the book is the reference. It’s circular reasoning, sure, but it’s a better reason than anything she has said. I thought she might have taken a page from “Dr.” Wakefield, and went with the ‘everything is in my book, please buy it’ route, but that’s just wrong, and a kind soul such as herself wouldn’t do that.

    For a good discussion of CS, I’d suggest Dr. Crislip’s podcast at
    http://moremark.squarespace.com/quackcast-list-mp3/
    Number 36, Hi Ho Silver. Should you use colloidal silver? Was there WMD’s in Iraq. Same quality data.

    For the “good” Dr. Jay, I’d suggest Quackcast Number 30, Lets Kill The Children or A Defense of Vaccines Why vaccines, to quote Mr. Pooh, “Are a Good Thing.”

    Because the world needs more Mark Crislip

  234. #235 Mu
    February 15, 2011

    Dinah, you got lots of ignored advise on the accuracy of your medical information already, let me add a tidbit of historical knowledge for you to disapprove of. It was “Heil Hitler”, not hail. If you need to use that phrase, at least spell it right.

  235. #236 Calli Arcale
    February 15, 2011

    Heliantus:

    For confusing us and keep moving the topic, you are good. If you have a cat, I am sure you are confusing it regularly. It’s good for its health.

    This looks like a job for . . . Confuse-A-Cat!

  236. #237 Scottynuke
    February 15, 2011

    +1 internets to Heliantus for the classic MPFC reference. I surmise “Confuse-a-Cat Ltd.” would save Dinah for truly difficult cases.

  237. #238 Pablo
    February 15, 2011

    please understand that I simply cannot part with citations because they are integral to my book.

    You know, Dinah, the cool thing about citations is that they are easily reproduced, such that even if you use them in one place, that does not mean they cannot be shared in others. For example, I routinely mention citations to papers in my daily activities, including those that I have previously included in my published, copyrighted works.

    So no, I don’t understand why you can’t give us citations for the references that you continually assert to exist. Your comment that they are “integral to your book” does not explain why you can’t provide them here, except in a “you have to buy my book to get the citation to the references” way, which would suggest that you have no interest in actually talking about this and your sole intent is to advertise your book.

    While Orac does not often ban commentors, I do think that “spamming advertising trolls” would match the level of what would constitute the level of being banned, I suspect.

    If I am misinterpreting something, you can clarify, but as the others have said, it’s time to put up or shut up. If you don’t, I will just assume you are spamming us to get us to buy your book. Then again, your marketing approach seems to have a lot to be desired, because you are going to be hard pressed to convinced anyone to buy a book written a someone who shows herself to be blinken idiot.

  238. Dinah types the way that I think… start off on one topic and veer off into a completely unrelated tangent by somehow linking hippopotamuses in pink tutus to the size of an overly intelligent mouse’s head.

  239. #240 Matthew Cline
    February 15, 2011

    @Pablo:

    Your comment that they are “integral to your book” does not explain why you can’t provide them here, except in a “you have to buy my book to get the citation to the references” way,

    Well, if she has a publishing contract for her book (rather than having it self published), she might think that giving citations contained in the book before it’s published would violate her contract. I rather doubt that any publishing contract would say anything like that, and even if it technically said that I really doubt that her publisher meant for it to say that.

  240. #241 Heliantus
    February 15, 2011

    @ JohnV, Pablo, Matthew

    To answer the question about bacteria developing resistance to oxidative stress, I don’t know how often de novo resistance mechanisms pop up, but one can imagine mutations that will increase the resistance provided by an existing system.

    I remember reading that some of the multiresistant Staphylococcus aureus strains were also collecting resistance genes to common antiseptic products, including bleach (much to my shock).
    Unfortunately, it was in another life (or country), I don’t have any reference handy. I will see if I can track one down.

    Re: Confuse-a-cat, it seemed… appropriate.

  241. #242 T. Bruce McNeely
    February 15, 2011

    Well, if she has a publishing contract for her book (rather than having it self published)

    That’s a pretty big “if”. Probably big enough to have a gravitational field, and several planets orbiting around it.

  242. #243 Pablo
    February 15, 2011

    Well, if she has a publishing contract for her book (rather than having it self published), she might think that giving citations contained in the book before it’s published would violate her contract.

    That’s why I mentioned that I regularly provide references that I have included in copyrighted publications. It clearly is not a violation of any copyright agreements. If the publisher (assuming there is one) insisted upon more, it is certainly non-standard and there is no reason why we should “understand” it without it being very clearly described.

  243. #244 Matthew Cline
    February 15, 2011

    @Pablo:

    That’s why I mentioned that I regularly provide references that I have included in copyrighted publications.

    Besides copyright, there’s also the right of first publication (which most publishers will demand) which says that the author can’t publish their writing elsewhere before the publisher does it first. Someone might misunderstand that to mean that citations contained in a book can’t be shared until after the book is published (or if the wording of the contract is weird it might actually say that, although I can’t believe any publisher would actually mean for the contract to say that).

  244. #245 herr doktor bimler
    February 15, 2011

    using the chemo would be horrific because the treatments involved using products that had been tested ( and used) on Jewish prisoners of war in the concentration camps.

    This much at least is not untrue: The Nazis killed many of their victims with hydrogen hydroxide.

  245. #246 Aaron
    February 15, 2011

    If Dinah’s worried about violating an agreement with the publisher, then should she be discussing any of her arguments in these comments? I assume many of her points on this page are “integral” to the book.. no?

    The citations are public domain and therefore have no copyright policy. The only reason for Dinah to hide them is to lure people into buying her book.

    Let’s think about the point of all of this. Dinah has argued online that Wakefield’s research has been duplicated in several countries. When asked for proof, she tells you to wait and buy her book. If she was trying to make a valid point that enlightens and expands the minds of those she’s debating, she would provide the reasoning behind her claim.

    No competent, well-intended debater provides a claim and refuses to provide evidence. Not only is it poor etiquette, but the end goal makes little sense. What is the point in her arguing? Does she assume that we’re going to change our minds because she stated a claim?

    This goes further than making a bad argument. This has more to do with the fundamental goal of having a discussion. Clearly, Dinah’s goal is something else… perhaps advertising?

    That’s it. Dinah isn’t here to change our minds. She’s here to advertise her book.

  246. #247 Pablo
    February 15, 2011

    That’s it. Dinah isn’t here to change our minds. She’s here to advertise her book.

    That is, of course, giving her the benefit of the doubt. There are other possible answers. For example, also in your post you mentioned…

    No competent, well-intended debater provides a claim and refuses to provide evidence.

    You are right, no competent well-intentioned debater does that. We might add “honest” to the list.

    Although I suggested it above, I am not convinced that the problem is not that she isn’t well-intentioned.

  247. #248 KoryO
    February 15, 2011

    Dinah, that whole “you gotta buy the book to get the references” thing was done far better by Kevin Trudeau a few years back, or even by Nancy Pelosi when she said they had to pass the healthcare bill in order to find out what was in it.

    I’m not a scientist like most of the commenters here. I am a writer, however, and you simply don’t have the way with words to pull that kind of bullshit off.

    Provide the sources. It’s not violating ANYONE’S copyright for you to do so. That whole “look ‘em up on Google/FDA website because I’m just too busy” thing wouldn’t cut it in an elementary school book report, much less your magnum opus.

    Either you are unbelievably intellectually lazy to the point of sloth, which makes me pity your copy editor and fact checkers, or you are flat out making crap up and hoping that no one catches on until you recoup your vanity press investment. Which is it?

  248. #249 Composer99
    February 15, 2011

    Pablo:

    Then again, this is a common perspective of cranks. To put it simply, they believe in magic. Acupuncture? It’s magic! (To be fair, some try to propose scientific mechanisms; of course, when they test it, thewy find that supposed acupuncture doesn’t work by these mechanisms, and the things that do aren’t acupuncture). Homeopathy? No physical mechanism, its magic. Colloidal silver? Magical.

    And if some nasty skeptic starts asking silly questions about efficacy, mechanisms, and whatnot, just insist on the magic part louder and more stridently.

    Something like this, perhaps?

  249. #250 Jar Jar Binks
    February 15, 2011

    Mesafirsta? No, yousafirsta. Mesa no wanna gets hit bya dor onna wayout.

  250. #251 TheBlackCat
    February 15, 2011

    That’s a pretty big “if”. Probably big enough to have a gravitational field, and several planets orbiting around it.

    I’m stealing that.

  251. #252 Darth Vader
    February 15, 2011

    You should not have come back.

  252. #253 Lazer epilasyon Kayseri
    February 16, 2011

    The nom de Web appears in odd threads using some interesting, dare I say British, word spellings and phrasing. (“practise” for practice, jab for vaccine.) Strange that a brit would go after the FDA (see above silver comment) but he/she could be a transplant to our fair shores.

  253. #254 Julian Frost
    February 16, 2011

    @Lazer:

    The nom de Web appears in odd threads using some interesting, dare I say British, word spellings and phrasing. (“practise” for practice, jab for vaccine.) Strange that a brit would go after the FDA (see above silver comment) but he/she could be a transplant to our fair shores.

    Dinah says she can speak Afrikaans. That means she, like me, is a Saffer.

  254. #255 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    February 16, 2011

    “Dinah says she can speak Afrikaans. That means she, like me, is a Saffer.”

    Not necessarily. I speak Finnish, but that doesn’t mean that I am Finnish. It just means that I speak Finnish.

    However, all I’ve seen DES speak on this blog and anywhere else is bollocks. Seems that’s taking over people’s mother-tongues in some places!

  255. #256 Prometheus
    February 16, 2011

    Dinah claims:

    “And while you may howl, snap, snarl and rip apart my writing skills or lack thereof please understand that I simply cannot part with citations because they are integral to my book.”

    Although it is probable (as many commenters have noted above) that this means Dinah has no clear idea of what “citations” are, there is an alternative explanation.

    It could be that Dinah’s book is simply a bibliography – a listing of books and articles that are (at least tangentially) relevant to a certain topic. That would explain why the citations are “integral” to her book – they are her book.

    Of course, I think that the odds are in favor of the first hypotheses: that Dinah doesn’t know what she’s talking about.

    Prometheus

  256. #257 Pablo
    February 16, 2011

    It could be that Dinah’s book is simply a bibliography – a listing of books and articles that are (at least tangentially) relevant to a certain topic. That would explain why the citations are “integral” to her book – they are her book.

    It would also explain why she can make all these claims. They _aren’t_ in her book.

    So to summarize:

    a possible explanation is that her book contains the citations to the papers that describe (inter alia) independent replication of Wakefield’s work in Australia, but doesn’t actually claim that Wakefield’s work was replicated in Australia.

  257. #258 LW
    February 16, 2011

    I think you’re all missing what Dinah’s book really is. It’s The Big Book of Paranoid Mad-Libs, and the bibliography is just there to give you ideas for the conspiracies with which to complete the Mad-Libs.

The site is currently under maintenance and will be back shortly. New comments have been disabled during this time, please check back soon.