Why do these things always have to happen when I’m out of town?

As you might be aware, the anti-vaccine movement is very, veyr unhappy with the recent Supreme Court ruling in the case of Bruesewitz vs. Wyeth. Basically, the Supreme Court upheld the primacy of the Vaccine Court in adjudicating vaccine injury claims and preemption of federal law over state law in such lawsuits. Not suprisingly, the anti-vaccine movement has lost its mind over this ruling, falsely labeling it as having taken away the right of parents to sue over vaccine injury and having eliminated any incentive that pharmaceutical companies might have to make safe vaccines. Last week, they held a rather confused “demonstration” in front of Microsoft headquarters in New York that drew a–shall we say?–disappointing turnout. Today, at 2 PM EST, they are holding a press conference on the steps of the Supreme Court in Washington.

Never let it be said that I don’t give fair airing to anti-vaccine views, the better to encourage their refutation and the mockery that they so richly deserve. Since I can’t watch (I’ll be at my surgical conference), I will provide you with the link to go to watch what will likely be an entertaining and pathetic spectacle. Also, thanks to our favorite anti-vaccine loons at Age of Autism, I have the HTML to embed the video right here (so that you can watch it here without going to the ustream.tv site, as well as the chat and social stream, all so that you, my readers, can, if you feel so inclined, inject a little reality into the anti-vaccine reality distortion field while I’m away.

Here’s the social stream:

And here’s the chat:

One point: SCOTUS rarely reverses itself. If the anti-vaccine movement wants to reverse Bruesewitz vs. Wyeth, it has to persuade Congress to change the law. Protesting in front of the Supreme Court is about as pointless an exercise as there is when it comes to effecting actual change of an already decided SCOTUS decision.

Comments

  1. #1 T. Bruce McNeely
    March 5, 2011

    Treat the the patient, not the bat. So how do you diagnose rabies in humans?

    For someone who is a complete ignoramus, you sure have a lot to say.

  2. #2 LW
    March 5, 2011

    I was wondering what Th1Th2 would say if the hypothetical were that you were bitten by the bat, you captured the bat on the spot, and it was tested and found to be infected with rabies. This would appear to be the answer: “Treat the the patient, not the bat. So how do you diagnose rabies in humans?” Th1Th2 would wait until you were symptomatic — even if the bat were known to be infected — at which point, if treated with the most modern protocol and all the resources of modern medicine, you might have some small chance of survival.

  3. #3 Th1Th2
    March 5, 2011

    nybgrus,

    “Pop quiz – what’s the IG stand for? Right! Immune Globulin. It acts DIRECTLY on the tetanus toxoid. No need for an immune system – it does it all by itself! ”

    —Of course, TIG has to do something or else it will look stupid not doing anything. Like giving the patient a small amount of venom (toxoid) and then the venom antiserum (TIG) afterwards. Which cult do you belong?

    Seriously, are you sure immune globulins can act alone and eliminate the toxins (tooids) without the need of the immune system?

    “However, if you have no immune system, then you can’t rid the body of the C. tetani infection itself, and thus the TIG will ONLY serve to protect you from symptoms so long as you have an infusion of it. ”

    —This is funny. It seems to me that the TIG is having a difficult time doing everything by itself…alone. How can TIG, yes! you alone, eliminate the symptoms of someone who is void of immune response?

    “The vaccine is given contemporaneously so that the continuous infusion is not necessary and your own immune response can take over where the TIG left off.”

    –Haha. Talk about adding insult to injury.

  4. #4 Chris
    March 5, 2011

    nybgrus, I think you have forgotten something you said in the infamous SBM blog:

    So the question, fellow scientific thinkers, is how does one deal with someone the likes of Sid and Th1Th2? I suggest the same way you deal with the Black Knight: You walk around his stump of a torso and continue on while he shouts how he has won the day.

    By the way, that entire comment was a thing of beauty. And really folks, please ignore the troll.

  5. #5 nybgrus
    March 5, 2011

    You are correct Chris. I have been caught with my hand in the cookie jar, so to speak. Like the guilty pleasure of watching “Flava of Love” with an entire pint of ice cream when you should be doing something productive instead. Like the child who burns ants with a magnifying glass or pokes at a roley-poley in a jar. Like a rubbernecker on the 405 in rush hour.

    I will cease and desist. Besides, I have to write up a patient history and then write up my presentation on board prep for tomorrow.

  6. #6 Th1Th2
    March 5, 2011

    matthew,

    “If you want to be able to actually communicate with anyone about infections, you’re going to have to define exactly what you mean by infection/infective/infectious. The abstract you quote in comment #70 isn’t enough.”

    Why not? Based on #87, what could possibly cause the tetanus in #70? A sugar molecule? Infection/infective/infectious all refer to and associated with infectious diseases, pathogens, pathogenic products including altered hosts cells.

  7. #7 Chris
    March 5, 2011

    nybgrus, 🙂

  8. #8 julia
    March 6, 2011

    Th1 Th2 had this kind of confusion about the word infection months ago. Not to diagnose over the internet, but this may be something like OCD where the person washes their hands over and over until the hands are raw and red. Often even when the person knows it is not logical or that they have OCD they will still do these actions and/or have the thot they are dirty etc. The nerve pathways in this case are like a well worn wagon path where it is difficult to escape. I myself, had obsessions as part of my autism but even then, after much convincing, I would ADMIT I was WRONG etc. I am not so sure Th1 Th2 could really be a “troll” in the classic sense, merely a person with strong obsessions. However, that is just a guess and I COULD BE WRONG.lol

  9. #9 augustine
    March 6, 2011

    Nybus

    You are correct Chris. I have been caught with my hand in the cookie jar, so to speak. Like the guilty pleasure of watching “Flava of Love” with an entire pint of ice cream when you should be doing something productive instead.

    You’re caught with your hand in the cookie jar because you are logically and scientifically sloppy.

    my apologies to the science crowd. In my bombastic zeal with the thing and the other trolls I started spouting off at the mouth without giving my usual thought to the posts.

    Blaming it on your posting targets still means you’re sloppy. You should be apologizing to them and not your fans whom you are trying to appease.

    Remember what Orac says. You’re at an unfair disadvantage. You have to stay on your toes. You lost this one. Just like Chris screwed up. 😉

  10. #10 dt
    March 6, 2011

    I don’t wish to become too personal, but I must point out that Th1 troll has a magnificent track record of either deliberate or unintended inability to reason when faced with unequivocal evidence.

    This inability is hopefully restricted to concepts about vaccination (Th1 would have a quite limited life expectancy otherwise, trying to deal with the realities of life. That is assuming it is a living entity and not some trollbot).

    Attempting to reason with the troll is quite hopeless, but is unfortunately very tempting at times. It’s like watching that Youtube clip of the drunk guy trying to put on his shoe.

    You cannot help being astonished by the display of mind-blowing incompetence, and want to enjoy the moment, but you also want to lend a helping hand at the same time just to help put the guy out of his misery.

  11. #11 Heliantus
    March 6, 2011

    @ the clueless thing, one last time, I promise guys.

    “Seriously, how could TIG function in a person who is void of the complement, macrophages, and other effector immune cells? ”

    Because the antibodies are directed against a protein, the tetanus toxin, you twit, and they don’t need the complement or whatever else to simply catch it in their little hands and prevent it from binding to the nerves.
    If you answer that antibodies are not effective at binding to their target, I will have some bad news for my officemate who is a specialist of ELISA and other Western blots.

    “The final product of tetanus toxoid is not a “neutralized toxoid”. It is physico-chemically similar to the native tetanospasmin”

    No, it’s not. It’s not biologically active the way the wild toxin is. The protein in the vaccine is not fully similar to the active toxin, you donkey, it’s what we keep telling you in all tones for the past 3 years. Which part of “we only pick one part of the pig, not the whole pig” don’t you understand?

    It’s not a diseased pig we are talking about, you dolt. Don’t you at least are consistent with your analogies?
    Bacon (with or without lipstick) is to a wild boar what the molecules introduced into a vaccine are to the wild germ (or the active toxin). Still close enough to be recognized as pig, but not too close for comfort. And hopefully not able anymore to jump you and disembowel you.

    How could someone know so much about something so simply elegant as the immune system and be so wrong?

    OK, I’m losing my time with you. Get lost.

  12. #12 Denice Walter
    March 6, 2011

    The pointlessness ( which may, unfortunately, bear disease-promoting fruit) continues**:

    AoA ( 3/5/11) calls upon the faithful to rise up and create a groundswell of political activity in support of a conscientious exemption to vaccination in NJ while simultaneously urging defeat of a measure that would re-instate the full power of the Public Health Council (which by bypassing the legislature, could mandate new vaccines and weaken or eliminate the currently lax religious exemption).This would dis-empower “the People”, I guess.

    Unsurprisingly, the article links to LKH’s site (NJCVC), which urges the following actions: attending a meeting @ 10am, Monday 3/7/11, in Trenton as well as barraging the legislature and governor with calls and e-mails. Recent carpet-bombing by anti-vaxxers has yielded results in NJ.

    ** and I continue, despite having a miserable headache, to bring you the bad news. Thank you very much, Tanqueray Dry London Gin, supposed-Elixir of Life ( or something like it) for folks like me. So please forgive any proofreading/ word choice errors.

  13. #13 novalox
    March 6, 2011

    @209

    Poor little troll, projecting his own deficiencies and idiocy onto others and again using the argumentum ad projectum fallacy.

  14. #14 Sid Offit
    March 6, 2011

    @ nybgrus

    Sid dropped off though.

    Because no one could justify using the tetanus vaccine in conjunction with TIG in an unvaccinated person as a response to a tetanus prone wound.

  15. #15 Lawrence
    March 6, 2011

    Only in your own mind Sid, only in your own mind. It actually is pretty funny watching these trolls flail about declaring victory – much like a petty dictator declaring victory while his forces crumble at every corner.

    When engaging in an intellectual debate, don’t argue with an unarmed opponent.

  16. #16 Matthew Cline
    March 6, 2011

    More Th1Th2 blasts from the past:

    ALL vaccines are adjuvanted in one way or another.

    Even thimerosal is considered an adjuvant. That is any substance that is added to preserve, stabilize, and enhance the immunogenicity of the vaccine is considered an adjuvant.

    You are an absolute quack. Where did you learn that superstitious belief that humans make formaldehyde. First, humans DO NOT synthesize formaldehyde.

    Again, you have not proven that formaldehyde is produced intrinsically by cells and NOT a product of metabolism.

  17. #17 nybgrus
    March 6, 2011

    @209/214: Deftly sidesteps the flopping torso of the black knight.

  18. #18 dedicated lurker
    March 6, 2011

    nybgrus – I’m expecting Th to say next that your mother was a hamster and your father smells of elderberries.

    Matthew – I think a cell that couldn’t metabolize would die pretty fast. But I’m not naive.

  19. #19 Dangerous Bacon
    March 7, 2011

    There’s a pretty good article on abcnews.com about how physicians are handling vaccine refusal by parents.

    “According to a 2001 American Academy of Pediatrics survey, 23 percent of physicians reported that they “always” or “sometimes” tell parents they can no longer be the child’s pediatrician if they won’t get the proper shots.

    The Academy doesn’t have more recent survey data, but physicians say that they see plenty of their colleagues joining the ranks.

    (A quoted pediatrician) will sometimes work with parents to adjust the vaccination schedule — “I’m willing to separate some vaccines by two weeks, whatever I can do to increase vaccination rates is good” — but if an interviewer comes along wanting to cross all vaccines off the list, Lieber will show them the door.

    Few physicians find that this practice challenges their ethics, especially in light of recent outbreaks such as pertussis in California and in certain communities within Brooklyn. Indeed, the American Academy of Pediatrics has in the past deemed it ethical to dismiss patients who refuse to get their children vaccinated, and offers a clinical guideline as well as an online toolkit on how to handle the pertinent issues.”

    The article discusses the threat to young children coming in to the pediatrician’s office from older patients whose parents have refused vaccination.

    No need to worry though – once a pediatrician decides that education has failed and the parents need to find a new doc, there’s probably a Brave Maverick Pediatrician available somewhere to pick up the slack and put all his patients (and the rest of the community) at risk.

  20. #20 JohnV
    March 7, 2011

    “there’s probably a Brave Maverick Pediatrician available somewhere to pick up the slack and put all his patients (and the rest of the community) at risk.”

    Paging Dr. Gordon

    😮

  21. #21 Jen
    March 7, 2011

    Who cares about Pediatricians anyways? Most people in Canada just go to a regular family physician for their children’s medical check-ups. And they don’t get all “in your face” about the shots ( which are usually given at the public health nurse clinics). We aren’t experiencing any massive outbreaks of anything. I am so happy we aren’t hep b’ ing our babies. ( in light of Stoneybrook hospital study).

  22. #22 augustinea
    March 7, 2011

    Vaccines kill again!

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110307/ts_nm/us_japan_vaccine

    Bad timing when an AP article(ie canned news article) tried to conspicously claim vaccine victory over ear infections when clearly other factors were involved with the outcome.

    http://www.ajc.com/health/trend-reversal-big-drop-860699.html

    The vaccine, first licensed in 2000, would not account for the drop in cases in the 1990s, but probably has contributed to the decline since, several experts said.

    Disease incidence/and or severity already dropping. Vaccine comes in to save the day. Vaccine takes credit. Other factors washed away by persistent PR campaign.

    Where have we heard this before?

    What will follow, as predicted, will be more tobacco executive integrity from vaccine apologists. “temporal”, “coincidence”, “you can’t prove it”, “the benefit still outweighs the risks”.

    The public can only take so much or your hubris. You’re only hurting science when you take this stance.

    Three of the four children died a day after being immunized.

  23. #23 MI Dawn
    March 7, 2011

    @little augie: yeah, and the companies are cooperating with the Japanese authorities to see why the children died. At this time, the deaths have NOT been tied to the vaccines according to the official statements from Japanese officials. And, appropriately, the use of those specific vaccines (not all vaccines) have been suspended while the investigation is going on. However, please remember that children can die of other causes and at this time we don’t know what caused the deaths of those 4 children, nor do we know the time period between vaccine and death for the 4th child.

    Now, please try reading articles you link to, instead of just the headlines, then you won’t be shown to be rumormungering.

  24. #24 augustine
    March 7, 2011

    At this time, the deaths have NOT been tied to the vaccines according to the official statements from Japanese officials.

    Dawn, baby, they never are. Just another case of SIDS.

  25. #25 nybgrus
    March 7, 2011

    when you employ creationist rhetoric tactics you know you’ve hit bottom barrel. Auggie is just the head of the black knight, crawling around using his tongue and screaming how he’s won.

  26. #26 augustine
    March 7, 2011

    when you employ creationist rhetoric tactics you know you’ve hit bottom barrel. Auggie is just the head of the black knight, crawling around using his tongue and screaming how he’s won.

    That’s a great example of an ad hominem attack. What a great little critical thinker you are. You mess up a lot. I wonder what else you’re wrong about.

    You’re sloppy. Your fellow bloggers know it. You know it. It’s sceptic code to let it slide as long the ends justifies the means.

  27. #27 Prometheus
    March 7, 2011

    Th1Th2 (3142) asks:

    “The presence of tetanus toxin in the blood in the absence of C. tetani (isolation of the bacilli – negative), do you consider that as an infection?”

    Tetanus toxin (tetanospasmin) in the blood could be the result of an infection by C. tetani or it could have been injected (for reasons unspecified). However, the inability to “isolate” C. Tetani (in the blood? not specified) doesn’t rule out an infection by that organism. Most C. tetani infections are in the tissues and don’t manifest as a septiciaemia (bacteria in the blood). The toxin, however, does appear in the blood, even if tests may not be sufficiently sensitive to detect it.

    Frankly, I’m not following what Th1Th2 is getting at with this. From reading the rest of the Th1Th2 comments, this is probably a good thing.

    If Th1Th2 was truly interested in discussing his/her hypothesis of “infection”, a more effective strategy would be to concisely and coherently explain it. Instead, Th1Th2 seems to be trying to make us all guess what he/she is thinking, which gives him/her inummerable opportunities to “LOL” at our collective stupidity for not being able to read his/her (dysfunctional) mind.

    Prometheus

  28. #28 nybgrus
    March 7, 2011

    auggie… when you can’t produce a cogent thought, let alone an argument there is nothing left to attack but the hominem

  29. #29 Th1th2
    March 7, 2011

    Heliantus,

    “Because the antibodies are directed against a protein, the tetanus toxin, you twit, and they don’t need the complement or whatever else to simply catch it in their little hands and prevent it from binding to the nerves.”

    —-Mice genetically deficient in C3, C4 or the C3b and the C3d complement receptors have diminished antibody responses to protein antigens.

    “No, it’s not. It’s not biologically active the way the wild toxin is. The protein in the vaccine is not fully similar to the active toxin, you donkey, it’s what we keep telling you in all tones for the past 3 years. Which part of “we only pick one part of the pig, not the whole pig” don’t you understand?”

    —That one is why tetanus toxoid has limited effectiveness.
    ” We conclude that the presence of the ganglioside binding site within HC may be essential for induction of a fully protective anti-tetanus response comparable to that induced by tetanus toxoid by subcutaneous injection. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1539629/

    “Bacon (with or without lipstick) is to a wild boar what the molecules introduced into a vaccine are to the wild germ (or the active toxin).”

    Can you be more so dishonest besides putting words into my mouth? What I said was ‘A pig with a lipstick is still a pig.’ What do you call a bacon derived from pigs used in vaccine production? A bacon. Bon appetit amigo!

  30. #30 lilady
    March 7, 2011

    “…I will have some bad news for my office mate who is a specialist of ELISA and other Western Blot.”

    The ELISA IGG test is used to test for tetanus vaccine-induced immunity; it is NOT (an) “other Western Blot.”

    Is there a possibility that any of the trolls on this site have read the CDC Pink Book, which is the compilation of all the reliable science-based knowledge of vaccine-preventable diseases?

  31. #31 nybgrus
    March 7, 2011

    “Because the antibodies are directed against a protein, the tetanus toxin, you twit, and they don’t need the complement or whatever else to simply catch it in their little hands and prevent it from binding to the nerves.”

    —-Mice genetically deficient in C3, C4 or the C3b and the C3d complement receptors have diminished antibody responses to protein antigens.

    ACK! The stupid! WOW. TIG is NOT A F*****G ANTIGEN! It is an ANTIBODY. You do not need an ANTIBODY RESPONSE from a PROTEIN ANTIGEN when you are administering an ANTIBODY not A F*****G PROTEIN ANTIGEN!!!!

  32. #32 Matthew Cline
    March 7, 2011

    @Prometheus:

    Frankly, I’m not following what Th1Th2 is getting at with this.

    I think Th1Th2 is implying that toxins produced by infectious agents are themselves infect infectious.

  33. #33 Th1Th2
    March 7, 2011

    nybgrus,

    “ACK! The stupid! WOW. TIG is NOT A F*****G ANTIGEN! It is an ANTIBODY. You do not need an ANTIBODY RESPONSE from a PROTEIN ANTIGEN when you are administering an ANTIBODY not A F*****G PROTEIN ANTIGEN!!!!”

    Good thing you’re not a doctor (or may be you are, I don’t know) because you would have killed a person with that dangerous idea not to mention how to properly administer TIG and not as a lethal IV ‘infusion’. You said this #196 on March 5, 2011 8:05 PM:

    “However, if you have no immune system, then you can’t rid the body of the C. tetani infection itself, and thus the TIG will ONLY serve to protect you from symptoms so long as you have an infusion of it. The vaccine is given contemporaneously so that the continuous infusion is not necessary and your own immune response can take over where the TIG left off.”

    May be the cause of death has nothing to do with antibody response. Listen up kids.

  34. #34 nybgrus
    March 7, 2011

    I’m flummoxed. Thing’s rhetoric, logic, intellect, and knowledge is so far beyond mine that I am but a dull caveman in comparison. I wish I possessed the ability to seamlessly use any word of the English language interchangeably with no regard for established “definitions” – truly Thing, you are the Shakespeare of immunology.

    Thingy, O’ Thingy. Wherefore art thou Thingy? For a anti-vaccinationist by any other name could not possibly smell as rank.

  35. #35 lilady
    March 7, 2011

    Thingy is out cruising for an all night bookstore, for a medical dictionary. And, thingy is trying to find a lab reference book to find out what diseases a Western Blot test is used for.

  36. #36 MI Dawn
    March 8, 2011

    @little augie:

    Dawn, baby, they never are.

    Forget the sweet talk, augie. I don’t pick up babies in a bar. I prefer adult men, thank you.

    @lilady: Western Blot? Ah, one of my favorites. Used to see a lot of them, back in the maternal-child days.

    @nybgrus: You bad, bad person, you. You’ve gone and upset poor Th1, who now has to research the various ways that TIG can be given. Oh, wait. Th1 seems to think it can only be given via 1 route. I hope you are ashamed of yourself, making TH1 work like that. /sarcasm

  37. #37 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    Dawn

    I don’t pick up babies in a bar. I prefer adult men, thank you.

    You sound like one of those “aggressive” females. Rgghhheow!

    BTW, 222 dead one day after Prevnar in the U.S. alone.

    http://www.vaccinationnews.com/sites/default/files/VAERS_Prevnar_deaths_within_1_day_1.pdf

  38. #38 Lawrence
    March 8, 2011

    VAERS is your proof? A database that doesn’t have a follow-up confirmation of accuracy? The same database where someone entered “Turned into the Incredible Hulk” as a adverse reaction to a vaccine & it was accepted?

  39. #39 Beamup
    March 8, 2011

    In particular, let’s observe that someone who got the vaccine and was hit by a drunk driver on the way home from the appointment would be included.

    It’s quite a meaningless number without an actual showing that the vaccine caused the deaths…

  40. #40 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    Yeah you’re right. That’s probably what happened to those 4 poor Japanese children. 2 received the vaccine, turned into the incredible hulk and then died by their own strength. The other 2 received the vaccine and were probably subsequently hit by drunk drivers.

    It would never be the vaccine. There can never be an actual vaccine death. Just hypothetical vaccine deaths.

    Have “science”bloggers ever seen a vaccine induced death that couldn’t be explained away or rationalized as necessary?

  41. #41 Lawrence
    March 8, 2011

    How about using real evidence for once? VAERS has been proven to be unreliable, for the very reasons stated.

    Given your demands for absolute certainty – why would you use, as evidence, a database that, by its very nature, is inaccurate?

  42. #42 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    Given your demands for absolute certainty

    Science can not give you certainty. And medicine is not even a science.

  43. #43 Lawrence
    March 8, 2011

    I know I’ll regret that – but what does give you certainty?

  44. #44 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    It’s quite a meaningless number without an actual showing that the vaccine caused the deaths…

    The decrease in infectious deaths is quite meaningless without an actual showing that the vaccine caused the decrease deaths.

    That’s a little tuff to do considering all of the confounders.

  45. #45 Beamup
    March 8, 2011

    You’re claiming that any death in temporal proximity to a vaccination must be attributed to the vaccine. Which is ludicrous. Unless you present some actual evidence that said deaths were vaccine-related, there isn’t anything to explain or rationalize in the first place.

  46. #46 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    You’re claiming that any death in temporal proximity to a vaccination must be attributed to the vaccine.

    No I’m not. But It must not be dismissed.

    In this case you say the vaccine is innocent until proven guilty. I say it’s guilty until proven innocent. That’s not a difference in science. It’s a difference in perspective.

    I’ve heard pharmacists say if a patient starts a new medication and develops new signs or symptoms then it’s the medication until proven otherwise.

  47. #47 Beamup
    March 8, 2011

    OK then, I declare that the deaths were clearly due to peanut butter. It’s guilty until proven innocent.

  48. #48 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    Something is wrong with the peanut butter.

    If 4 children died immediately after eating the same brand of peanut butter then you have legitimate reason for concern and should report that to PBAERS.

    Even if the Peanut Butter Ideologists say it’s coincidental in the name of nutrition.

    Or you could create doubt and hold off more criticism for decades by starting a campaign looking into the genetic causes.

  49. #49 Pablo
    March 8, 2011

    If 4 children died immediately after eating the same brand of peanut butter then you have legitimate reason for concern and should report that to PBAERS.

    There isn’t a PBAERS to report to, so that causes a problem.

    How do you know that 4 children haven’t died immediately after eating the same brand of peanut butter?

  50. #50 dedicated lurker
    March 8, 2011

    So auggie says you can’t know the vaccine was involved in reducing disease rates, but knows anyone who dies after a vaccine must have died because of the vaccine until proven otherwise.

    That’s a hell of a cognitive dissonance there.

  51. #51 Todd W.
    March 8, 2011

    Haven’t really been following the comments too closely, but noticed that the deaths in Japan came up. Wrote about that here. They were most likely coincidental, which is believable, considering millions upon millions of doses have been administered worldwide.

    I always find it interesting when anti-vaxers cry foul when there is even a single death following a vaccine, giving a rate of 1 per several million, but when the death rate from a disease it on the order of 1 per 1,000, they’re like, “Meh.”

  52. #52 lilady
    March 8, 2011

    Worldwide news agencies are now reporting that medical investigators in Japan have determined that the four infant deaths are not linked to immunizations.

    If any posters here have any other “theories”, “suggestions” or “differences in perspective”, I suggest you notify the Japanese government.

  53. #53 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    Lurker

    So auggie says you can’t know the vaccine was involved in reducing disease rates

    I didn’t say it wasn’t involved.

  54. #54 Beamup
    March 8, 2011

    If 4 children died immediately after eating the same brand of peanut butter then you have legitimate reason for concern

    Who said anything about immediately? You’ve rather changed the requirement from the original 24 hours.

    And if you seriously believe that 4 deaths within 24 hours of eating peanut butter, in who knows what circumstances, without more evidence linking them, constitutes a legitimate reason for concern then I don’t see how you go through life. Because I guarantee you that most things you do routinely have that sort of link.

    If the 4 deaths were due to food poisoning (I think salmonella can live in peanut butter?), and there were others sickened but not killed from the same brand, and there’s no other commonality that can be found between what they ate, THEN you have cause for concern.

  55. #55 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    scienceblog poster

    Worldwide news agencies are now reporting that medical investigators in Japan have determined that the four infant deaths are not linked to immunizations.

    @222. Of course. It’s a predictable response. No vaccine has. None ever will be.

    Btw, what did the autopsy reveal?

  56. #56 lilady
    March 8, 2011

    @ augie Why don’t you ask the Japanese Ministry of Health about the cause of death, when you send them your “differences of perspective.” There is an email contact address at the Japanese Ministry of Health, for you to advance your theories.

  57. #57 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    scienblog poster

    @ augie Why don’t you ask the Japanese Ministry of Health about the cause of death, when you send them your “differences of perspective.”

    I thought, being the county nurse and all, that you had some type of pull and had seen the autopsy reports.

  58. #58 lilady
    March 8, 2011

    I provided the contact information to you because you expressed interest in the causes of deaths, I didn’t…I’ll wait for any updates on the situation from my usual “source”…the MMWR.

    When you contact the Japanese Ministry of Health about your “differences of perspective”, share the email with us and let us know what their response is. We are always interested in scientific research results.

  59. #59 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities. -Ayn Rand

  60. #60 Lawrence
    March 8, 2011

    LOL – I knew it! Augie had to be an Objectivist – please, give us some more quotes from Atlas Shrugged or the Fountainhead.

    Explains a lot – google Nicholas Provenzo & Trig Palin to see the worst of the worst. Scary thing is, I knew this guy in college (and he was a wacko then too).

  61. #61 Beamup
    March 8, 2011

    It’s also completely off-topic and irrelevant…

  62. #62 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    I provided the contact information to you because you expressed interest in the causes of deaths, I didn’t

    So being the county nurse doesn’t give you that type of privilege?

    We are always interested in scientific research results.

    So what was that specific scientific protocol they used in Japan to absolutely rule out the possibility of the vaccine killing the children?

    I can’t be too different than the one that the county nurses use.

    Maybe you should write to them and tell them that they are in effect murdering their citizens by with holding a valuable life saving vaccine. There is no scientific reason for suspending the vaccine right?

  63. #63 T. Bruce McNeely
    March 8, 2011

    Trying to resist feeding the troll but failing…

    Augie, you go ahead and contact the Japanese Ministry of Health. After all, you know it all and you never make a mistake. You did tell us that if you were in error, you would immediately correct it, didn’t you? Since I have never seen you acknowledge an error, you must never make an error. That’s, like, so awesome! You’re like some kind of god.

    With that kind of rep, you should have a lot more pull than the rest of us poor slobs who are blundering about in the captivity of science. I’m sure that the Japanese Government is dying to hear from you. Who could refuse a request from a god? Do us a favor and get on with it, okay?

  64. #64 dedicated lurker
    March 8, 2011

    I didn’t say it wasn’t involved.

    Well, it’s a good thing that I said “So auggie says you can’t know the vaccine was involved in reducing disease rates” and not “auggie says the vaccine wasn’t involved in reducing disease rates” then.

  65. #65 Matthew Cline
    March 8, 2011

    @augustine:

    Of course. It’s a predictable response. No vaccine has. None ever will be.

    Because all coroners are all so pro-vax that they refuse to recognize a vaccine death when they see one?

  66. #66 JohnV
    March 8, 2011

    Seeing it take auggie this long to quote that pile of shit rand makes me wonder if he just turned 14 and finally started reading a copy of it.

  67. #67 nybgrus
    March 9, 2011

    Thank the FSM that this thread has finally died!

  68. #68 Th1Th2
    March 9, 2011

    White flag has been raised by these vaccine apologists. It’s a predictable move nonetheless.

  69. #69 nybgrus
    March 9, 2011

    The torso of the Black Knight is STILL babbling?? LOL

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