Respectful Insolence

Why do these things always have to happen when I’m out of town?

As you might be aware, the anti-vaccine movement is very, veyr unhappy with the recent Supreme Court ruling in the case of Bruesewitz vs. Wyeth. Basically, the Supreme Court upheld the primacy of the Vaccine Court in adjudicating vaccine injury claims and preemption of federal law over state law in such lawsuits. Not suprisingly, the anti-vaccine movement has lost its mind over this ruling, falsely labeling it as having taken away the right of parents to sue over vaccine injury and having eliminated any incentive that pharmaceutical companies might have to make safe vaccines. Last week, they held a rather confused “demonstration” in front of Microsoft headquarters in New York that drew a–shall we say?–disappointing turnout. Today, at 2 PM EST, they are holding a press conference on the steps of the Supreme Court in Washington.

Never let it be said that I don’t give fair airing to anti-vaccine views, the better to encourage their refutation and the mockery that they so richly deserve. Since I can’t watch (I’ll be at my surgical conference), I will provide you with the link to go to watch what will likely be an entertaining and pathetic spectacle. Also, thanks to our favorite anti-vaccine loons at Age of Autism, I have the HTML to embed the video right here (so that you can watch it here without going to the ustream.tv site, as well as the chat and social stream, all so that you, my readers, can, if you feel so inclined, inject a little reality into the anti-vaccine reality distortion field while I’m away.

Here’s the social stream:

And here’s the chat:

One point: SCOTUS rarely reverses itself. If the anti-vaccine movement wants to reverse Bruesewitz vs. Wyeth, it has to persuade Congress to change the law. Protesting in front of the Supreme Court is about as pointless an exercise as there is when it comes to effecting actual change of an already decided SCOTUS decision.

Comments

  1. #1 Anonymosity
    March 3, 2011

    Hey, I work about 4 blocks from there! I’m thinking of going.

    Any talking points beyond simply screaming “BABY KILLERS!” every 15 seconds?

  2. #2 Ted
    March 3, 2011

    LKH and MH seem to make sport of twisting the English language, and misreading Supreme Court decisions. Pity, coming from a law professor from a purportedly “good” law school, who has two prominent medical scientists as parents, a brother who is an immunological chief at NIH, and an uncle who was a chairman of … a BIG PHARMA! This so-called “legal” patina, as well as calling public health advocates “vaccine gestapo” (when the authors had called for and insist on “having” a “reasonable dialogue”) is so disingenuous.
    They apparently take comfort in their anger. Sad. It is a waste of their intelligence and cerebrally slothful to find scapegoats. Their pain is indeed evident- they’ve borne children in upper-class circumstances, and to see that they will not attain the dreams set for them is indeed wretchedly painful. But their solution is so, so wrong- and will result in the deaths of many who will, in their fear and anger, find an easy scapegoat. I could be tempted to call it Munich 1933, but I will not stoop to their level- especially when their efforts ought to go toward research to determine the TRUE causes of this and provide a science-based solution.

  3. #3 augustine
    March 3, 2011

    Any talking points beyond simply screaming “BABY KILLERS!” every 15 seconds?

    No you should do that. And you should walk down to the abortion clinic and yell the same thing.

    Wait you didn’t mean THAT type of baby killing did you?

  4. #4 Anonymosity
    March 3, 2011

    Once they’re born, they no longer deserve protection, right? It’s the unborn that are helpless. Infants should be able to fend for themselves.

  5. #5 Sara
    March 3, 2011

    One of my friends from HS is a pharmacy student and pointed me to this group on Facebook:

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/1000000-People-In-Favor-of-Vaccinations/150122331716238

    One million people in favor of vaccinations. Sadly only 29 people have “liked” it. If you search “against vaccines” you see a lot of stupid groups. My favorite title is “Rational people against vaccines.” Which seems like an oxymoron to me.

  6. #6 Th1Th2
    March 3, 2011

    Vaccine court = Kangaroo court. Dead on.

  7. #7 Chris
    March 3, 2011

    Th1Th2 lives in his/her own special world:

    Why should I let the child walk on the dirt when there is a dry concrete pavement next to it? A toddler would readily know which is the safe path to take even without the knowledge of C. tetani, but I am just fascinated how parents are offering very poor choices (or lack thereof).

  8. #8 Lawrence
    March 3, 2011

    Typical anti-vaxxer stance – the Court was created so parents would have a means of filing for compensation, based on a less burdensome standard of evidence.

    The fact that the Special Masters shot down all of the autism-vaccine arguments, in detail, just shows how little (or no) evidence exists – while people who have had legitimate claims (or even close to legitimate claims) have been paid.

  9. #9 Mu
    March 3, 2011

    it’s nearly 3 pm EST, must have been a short protest, nothing on the stream

  10. #10 Th1Th2
    March 3, 2011

    Vaccine manufacturers are the ones who live inside the bubble.

  11. #11 Liz Ditz
    March 3, 2011

    Jenny McCarthy Body Count has a facebook page, will be posting the chat stream later:

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Jenny-McCarthy-Body-Count/180783538575?sk=info

  12. #12 MI Dawn
    March 3, 2011

    Hey, welcome to the Th1 Troll! I wondered when xe would make it over to RI from the regular trolling grounds.

    BTW, Th1: if vaccine court= kangaroo court, how come they have paid out several million dollars to actually vaccine injured children? Not the pretend vaccine injured ones, but those who really, truly were injured by vaccines.

    (@Chris – sorry, couldn’t resist talking to the Thing. Having posting issues on SBM and I’ve missed xe’s insanity.)

  13. #13 Anonymosity
    March 3, 2011

    Yeah, I suck. They asked if anyone had questions, and I just stood there. I thought of a bunch afterword though.

    I’ll assume that my snide comments weren’t audible?

  14. #14 Mary
    March 3, 2011

    Watching the chat…. couple of people really calling out the anti-vaxers

    I have no idea who they are….but good job!

  15. #15 Anonymosity
    March 3, 2011

    @MI Dawn – The lawyer from Tennessee actually said that the court had “paid out over 2 Billion dollars, and that’s deplorable.”

  16. #16 Th1Th2
    March 3, 2011

    Because the benefit outweighs the risk. The risk of them losing money from compensation is nil, nada zilch compared to the $$$ they are making.

  17. #17 Adam_Y
    March 3, 2011

    Anyway, I think no one is left in the chat anymore worth talking to. The scary fact is that there is aparently a documentary being made about finding the “truth”.

  18. #18 Lawrence
    March 3, 2011

    The chat is fun – but I am going to have to leave soon.

  19. #19 Chris
    March 3, 2011

    The discussion is ongoing with some die hard folks:

    1:00 CynthiaJanak: The one study that would prove whether vaccines cause autism has never been done. That is vaccinated vs. unvaccinated.
    1:00 Lawrenceguy: unethical
    1:00 Lawrenceguy: totally unethical
    1:00 Lawrenceguy: to the extreme
    1:00 CynthiaJanak: I would like to know which is healthier.
    1:00 Lawrenceguy: It would be Tuskegee all over again
    1:01 technoextreme: not is it totally unethical but its against international law too
    1:01 Lawrenceguy: You can study populations in situ, you cannot, ethically, create that situation on purpose
    1:01 newtheory-1: – only glimpsed at the abstract
    1:01 CynthiaJanak: There is a doctor in Illinois that treats both vaccinated and unvaccinated. He would love to have then use his patients in such a study.
    1:01 newtheory-1: not really what I am looking for
    1:02 Lawrenceguy: You do understand why that kind of study is unethical, right?
    1:02 Lawrenceguy: Or do you not care?
    1:02 CynthiaJanak: He has found that his unvaccinated patients have less occurances of allergies, asthma, ear infections and other problems than the vaccinated.
    1:03 Lawrenceguy: What size of a patient population, better be more than 12.
    1:03 Lawrenceguy: Actually, my two sons have had all of their vaccinations & don’t have allergies, asthma or ear infections – not a single one.
    1:04 Lawrenceguy: That’s as compelling as your argument
    1:04 Lawrenceguy: and just as ancedotal.
    1:04 CynthiaJanak: If I remember correctly he has over 30,000 patients.
    1:04 Lawrenceguy: One doctor – 30,000 patients, at one time? And where was this published again?
    1:05 vaccinateyourkids: 30,000 patients; that’s just silly.
    1:05 Lawrenceguy: And what is his name? His practice, and the confirmation of his work?

  20. #20 Chris
    March 3, 2011

    Eisenstein has been mentioned on this blog a few times:

    Then there’s Mayer Eisenstein. We’ve encountered Dr. Eisenstein multiple times before, first making data-free claims about how there is virtually no autism among the unvaccinated children in his crunchy Homefirst practice, a story that later morphed into a claim for actual data. Despite that, he never published. Most recently, Dr. Eisenstein has fallen for the quackery of Mark and David Geier, in which the powerful anti-sex hormone drug Lupron is being touted as a treatment for autism and been written up in the Chicago Tribune for the incompetence of physicians in his practice.

  21. #21 Matthew Cline
    March 3, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    Because the benefit outweighs the risk. The risk of them losing money from compensation is nil, nada zilch compared to the $$$ they are making.

    So, then, the vaccine court stops being a kangaroo court when vaccines become unprofitable due to amount of compensations being awarded?

  22. #22 th1th2
    March 3, 2011

    Vaccine manufacturers will go belly up if that special immunity is rescinded. Hence a kangaroo court is a better alternative than bankruptcy.

  23. #23 dedicated lurker
    March 3, 2011

    Yay! Th!Th2 is here! I’m grabbing some popcorn for the entertainment that will inevetiably result.

  24. #24 Matthew Cline
    March 3, 2011

    So, to paraphrase: any fair court would drive vaccine manufacturers out of business. Since vaccines manufacturers are still in business, that in and of itself proves that the vaccine court is unfair.

  25. #25 Ted
    March 3, 2011

    @Th1Th2
    So, you are willing to trade off more money from lawsuits ostensibly to treat living children (many of whom are from affluent families – I believe LKH is the next door neighbor of Jon Bon Jovi- let alone the new bonanza afforded to tort lawyers) for the deaths of those unvaccinated. That’s setting back medicine 125 years. Also, that is such a perversion of utilitarianism such that John Stuart Mill is spinning in his grave. Face it, pharmaceutical companies have the economies of scale to produce vaccines safely and inexpensively – which they couldn’t do even if they survived this new generation of lawsuits. If they did, well, the costs would be passed on to those needing them. Result- more deaths in the Third World, and of course due to our global village, more here. but these children’s lives don’t count now , do they?

  26. #26 Chris
    March 3, 2011

    Just a reminder, Th1Th2 is not a reasonable person. It thinks toddlers would prefer a nice safe sidewalk over dirt.

  27. #27 Th1Th2
    March 3, 2011

    Vaccine manufacturers still exist simply because they live inside the bubble. How could that be fair? Without it, they’ll be a part of history like The Lehmans. Vaccine court=kangaroo court. The benefit of which is towards the vaccine manufacturers while the patients run the risk.

  28. #28 augustine
    March 3, 2011

    Chris

    Just a reminder, Th1Th2 is not a reasonable person. It thinks toddlers would prefer a nice safe sidewalk over dirt.

    You think a person can actually be born into the wrong body. Your perception of reasonable is suspect itself.

  29. #29 Ted
    March 3, 2011

    @Th1Th2
    I’m sorry, but what about the millions paid out by the “kangaroo court”? Especially for something where there is NO correlation. D’Oh!
    Forgive me, but I should not be engaged in a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Even Habakus and Holland tout their Stanford, Harvard, and Columbia degrees, but their thinking is so flawed. So, how could I expect one of their followers (and believe me, they do have a messianic complex) to deviate from their coached mantras?
    Again, it seems you prefer the living over the lives of those who will die if not inoculated. Then again, their not YOUR children, so I guess the best intentions of pediatricians are all in doubt. It’s a conspiracy, right? (Ya gotta believe, because there’s nothing else there)

  30. #30 Th1Th2
    March 3, 2011

    Ted, Go find a hospital here in the US that caters only for the unvaccinated and maybe I can answer you.

  31. #31 Lawrence
    March 3, 2011

    Actually, vaccine manufacturers don’t live inside a bubble – they are just divisions of larger companies that develop a whole range of drugs. Given the lower profit margins on vaccines compared to other types of drugs (like Viagra for example), they are more suceptible to the pressures of liability claims (cost of litigation & awards vs. profits) – thus they are less attractive for the manufacturers to continue to research & manufacturer.

    Under the current system, awards under the Vaccine Court are paid by a tax on all vaccines – therefore spreading the costs & keeping vaccines in production. People can bring as many claims to the VC as they would like & as much money will be paid out as there are legitimate claims – and the fact that a substantial amount of money has been paid out shows the system is working as intended. Parents and families are being compensated.

    The anti-vax crowd is just upset because, even under the more lenient evidentiary rules of the VC, they haven’t been able to get their pet theories legitimized by the Court.

  32. #32 Matthew Cline
    March 3, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    Ted, Go find a hospital here in the US that caters only for the unvaccinated and maybe I can answer you.

    Which question? The “It’s a conspiracy, right?” question? How would the existence (or non-existence) of such a hospital answer that question?

  33. #33 Composer99
    March 3, 2011

    Th1Th2 strikes me as being closest to some of the unadulterated cranks you see on GoodMath/BadMath (cases in point) compared to the garden-variety trolls on Respectful Insolence.

    We’re talking Time Cube-style understanding of immunology, people.

    Vaccine-topic threads over at Science-Based Medicine are littered with Th1Th2′s inanities.

  34. #34 Rene Najera
    March 3, 2011

    Simple. If they want to gripe about the Vaccine Court, they should go protest and harass Barbara Loe Fisher. She had a hand in creating it. Don’t believe me? It’s right there, in the wikipedia page of Ms. Fisher’s.

  35. #35 Cracker Jill
    March 3, 2011

    Without meaning to appear pedantic, your typo when spelling “very” made me think that you could say they are VAERy, VAERy unhappy. Bud-ump-bump.

  36. #36 dedicated lurker
    March 3, 2011

    Some of the highlights: th1th2 thinks infants are sterile at birth. Th1Th2 also thinks that if you don’t vaccinate a person and never intentionally expose them to disease, they will never get sick. In their world there is no such thing as an asymptomatic carrier. Oh, and Th1Th2 says “naive” a lot.

  37. #37 Sid Offit
    March 3, 2011

    So Americans don’t have access to justice in order to keep prices down for the Third World. I think Ted just about sums up the entire Oracian ethic.

  38. #38 Th1Th2
    March 3, 2011

    dedicated lurker,

    Your own blood is sterile. Wanna bet? Geez.

  39. #39 Matthew Cline
    March 3, 2011

    @Rene Najera:

    If they want to gripe about the Vaccine Court, they should go protest and harass Barbara Loe Fisher. She had a hand in creating it.

    If I were an anti-vaxxer I wouldn’t blame her. She campaigned to have the Vaccine Court be a “vaccines are guilty until proven innocent” venue. In fact, according to her, the government lied to her and told her it would have an guilty-until-proven-innocent approach.

    @dedicated lurker:

    In their world there is no such thing as an asymptomatic carrier.

    I don’t recall him/her ever saying that. In fact, I recall quite the opposite.

    … and never intentionally expose them to disease, they will never get sick.

    What I recall Th1Th2 saying is that it’s very easy to keep all asymptomatic carriers away from your child.

  40. #40 Th1Th2
    March 3, 2011

    Since the establishment of the vaccine court, have vaccine manufacturers been sued and held liable? No, which only proves they live inside a bubble.

  41. #41 Sid Offit
    March 3, 2011

    @Matt

    Wouldn’t people be willing to pay almost any price for the miracle protection conferred by vaccination? Couldn’t drug makers just raise prices to nullify their need for special treatment.

  42. #42 mandrake
    March 3, 2011

    What I recall Th1Th2 saying is that it’s very easy to keep all asymptomatic carriers away from your child.

    Good lord, what world does he live in? His children never go to school, a concert, a mall?
    Must be a child in a bubble. You know, with the vaccine manufacturers.

  43. #43 Jeff Keogh
    March 3, 2011

    Yeah Sid. People who can barely afford to put food on the table would be happy to pay any price for a vaccination.

    To quote Bugs Bunny, “What a maroon!”

  44. #44 Chris
    March 3, 2011

    Matthew Cline:

    What I recall Th1Th2 saying is that it’s very easy to keep all asymptomatic carriers away from your child.

    It is all in the link I posted earlier. By glancing back at it, I believe it became clear that the troll did not know the definition of “asymptomatic.” It was quite clear that this is a person who has never cared for small children, reads weird stuff from the Googles and has no understanding of the reason for the Vaccine Court (or its history, just as Sid troll does not know how it is financed).

    Note to trolls: I don’t even read your stuff anymore, so don’t even bother. Though I am willing to explain the wee bit of weirdness due to one troll’s inherent sexism (but all you have to do is search for him and his treatment of others like Science Mom).

  45. #45 Pablo
    March 3, 2011

    Good lord, what world does he live in? His children never go to school, a concert, a mall?
    Must be a child in a bubble. You know, with the vaccine manufacturers.

    I would not assume he has kids.

    At least, I sure as hell hope not.

  46. #46 Lawrence
    March 3, 2011

    Again, you seem to think that these companies exist only to manufacturer vaccines. They don’t – they are very large concerns that have many different divisions, working on a variety of product lines.

    As we all know, these companies have been sued & held liable on numerous occasions – and federal regulators have also investigated & imposed fines, but overall their processes have been improved considerably over the years – so even if they haven’t suffered direct litigation over vaccines – and nothing prevents families from suing the manufacturers if they don’t like the VC results, overall, these companies are held liable.

  47. #47 Th1Th2
    March 3, 2011

    An asymptomatic carrier is a pathogenic carrier, like a doctor with a live VZV vaccine in his hands readily available for inoculaton to a naive child.

    Also, smart people do not bring their children to a pox party to get infected. Rather, they stay away. Only fools would do that thing.

  48. #48 Th1Th2
    March 3, 2011

    Read again.

    “No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action for damages arising from a vaccine-related injury or death… if the injury or death resulted from side effects that were unavoidable even though the vaccine was properly prepared and was accompanied by proper directions and warnings.”

    This is way even better than an acquired immunity (natural or vaccine-type) wherein vaccine manufacturers have never had any kind of exposure from lawsuits and liabilities yet they possess such absolute immunity. @#$% ridiculous.

  49. #49 dedicated lurker
    March 3, 2011

    Also, smart people do not bring their children to a pox party to get infected.

    I wasn’t brought to one. I didn’t get the chicken pox vaccine. Yet I managed to get chicken pox anyway. Funny how that works. Must have been because I didn’t stay on the safe concrete path. (There were none by my childhood home, but still…)

  50. #50 Th1Th2
    March 3, 2011

    No, someone else brought it to you. You just didn’t know it.

  51. #51 Matthew Cline
    March 3, 2011

    Another great Th1Th2 blast-from-the-past:

    Pathogens are infectious antigens and examples of antigens include bacteria, viruses, toxins, cancer cells and blood or tissues from another person or species.

    And then later in the same comment thread:

    That is ridiculously false. Antigens derived from an infectious organism should definitely be infectious, otherwise, the vaccine made is nothing but snake oil.

    And:

    You know that viral infection of the host cell MUST occur first before replication, don’t you? Hence, non-replicating antigens, like inactivated vaccines, MUST infect the cell so that they can be presented to the cell surface.

  52. #52 Th1Th2
    March 3, 2011

    Inactivated polio vaccines actually contain the infectious D-antigen. No matter how you try to hide or modify it, a pig with a lipstick is still a pig.

  53. #53 augustine
    March 3, 2011

    Chris:

    Note to trolls: I don’t even read your stuff anymore, so don’t even bother. Though I am willing to explain the wee bit of weirdness due to one troll’s inherent sexism (but all you have to do is search for him and his treatment of others like Science Mom).

    Apparently you do read stuff.

    A personal attack only shows that you cannot defend your irrational beliefs. Yet you continue to attack others with the same sword.

    You backed yourself into a corner on this one and you KNOW IT! Your political correctness bit your scientific ass.

  54. #54 Matthew Cline
    March 3, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    So, according to your definition of “infection”, if a cell absorbs an antigen and then presents that antigen on its surface, it’s been infected by that antigen, regardless of the how/why the antigen ended up on the surface? Does that apply to bacterial antigens as well?

    And what about macrophages? If a macrophage engulfs-and-digests a pathogen, cuts up the antigens into pieces, and presents the pieces on its surface, does that meant that the macrophage has been infected by the, or does it not count as an infection since the antigen has been cut up into pieces?

  55. #55 Sid Offit
    March 3, 2011

    @Jeff Keogh

    I’m sure you and other like minded people would join together to buy vaccines for those unable to afford it. I even understand that, according to Montel Williams, big pharma is willing to help defer the cost of some of their products.

  56. #56 Th1Th2
    March 3, 2011

    Vaccine antigens are not just ordinary, innocuous and ubiquitous antigens we encountered in the environment. These antigens are derived from pathogenic microorganisms. They are clearly associated with the disease, mode of transmission, mechanism of infectivity, thus immunogenicity and symptomatology. The immune system would respond differently against any pathogenic products compared to something that is not. Infections with known pathogens can occur intracellularly or extracellularly.

  57. #57 dedicated lurker
    March 3, 2011

    No, someone else brought it to you. You just didn’t know it.

    Okay, then. How can you tell someone’s infected? How do you know to stay away?

  58. #58 Toxicology Kat
    March 3, 2011

    @ Ted (#2):

    …efforts ought to go toward research to determine the TRUE causes of this [autism] and provide a science-based solution.

    What “science-based solution”? To eliminate autistics, either by eugenics or by attempting to genetically rewire their brains?” I shudder at the thought of what could go wrong if we DID try to change the gene expression patterns that lead to autism. Human neurological development is way too complicated to tinker with and expect good results.

    Why don’t we just accept that the autism spectrum is another neurological phenotype of the human race, like left-handedness, colorblindness, or synesthesia? We don’t need research to “cure autism.” We need research on improved communication and quality of life for autistics. (Remember, you might not have an Internet if it weren’t for autistic inventors.)

  59. #59 novalox
    March 3, 2011

    @53

    Ah…augie’s stupidity in action, good for a laugh.

  60. #60 Sid Offit
    March 4, 2011

    I shudder at the thought of what could go wrong if we DID try to change the gene expression patterns functioning of the immune system that lead to autism in order to protect us from generally mild illnesses. Human neurological development immune system is way too complicated to tinker with and expect good results.

  61. #61 nsib
    March 4, 2011

    Sid,

    Saying that vaccines change the functioning of the immune system is like saying eating a sandwich changes the functioning of the digestive system.

  62. #62 Science Mom
    March 4, 2011

    @ Matthew Cline, I stopped responding to Th1/Th2 because, not only is she immune to facts and logic, but even the lurkers for whom could benefit from a response to Th1/Th2′s fallacies, could surely see the craxxy there. You will never get a direct response (see nailing Jello to a wall) and as you may have been able to deduce by now, she believes that human immune systems are so super duper perfect that they will never become naturally infected, keeping them away from all of the contagious people wearing signs of course. And if they do become sick, well it’s medical error naturally. Vaccines, on the other hand, breach that perfect immunity and do bad things. Or some such rubbish. In any event, I guess she has been ignored sufficiently on SBM that she needs the attention here.

  63. #63 Matthew Cline
    March 4, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    Hence, non-replicating antigens, like inactivated vaccines, MUST infect the cell so that they can be presented to the cell surface.

    So does that mean that with vaccines containing dead bacteria that the dead bacteria infect the cells? Or does it only apply to viral antigens?

  64. #64 lilady
    March 4, 2011

    With regard to all the comments here about vaccine manufacturers making huge profits from vaccine sales; it ain’t so.

    Visit the quarterly financial statements to stockholders printed online to view the bottom line of net profits to see that only a small percentage of their net profits are derived from vaccine sales.

    Many pediatricians and Family Medicine physicians who have mostly insured patients have become VFC (Vaccines for Children) Program providers, because some of their patients are insured under Medicaid.

    The VFC Program is available throughout the United States and the Federal government buys all the CDC recommended childhood vaccines directly from the vaccine manufacturers at a greatly reduced price. The Federal VFC staff then ship out the vaccine to the States for distribution to VFC health care providers.

    Children from birth through age 18 are eligible if they are on Medicaid (fee for service and managed care plans), if their parents have private health care coverage that does not cover immunizations or if they are American Indian or Alaskan Indian.

    Physicians who care for children insured under Medicaid or children of American/Alaskan Indian heritage become VFC providers by applying to their State Health Department. They receive assistance from VFC coordinators in their state to handle (restricted use storage) the VFC vaccines.

    There is a formula for billing the costs for administration and supplies back to Medicaid. It is a public health initiative paid for by tax dollars to make certain that every child is fully immunized.

  65. #65 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    “Okay, then. How can you tell someone’s infected? How do you know to stay away?”

    You wouldn’t expect someone to be able to understand the meaning of infection prevention and control if they themselves actually do the opposite, that is, by willful inoculation and deliberate exposure to natural infection.

  66. #66 Matthew Cline
    March 4, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    You wouldn’t expect someone to be able to understand the meaning of infection prevention and control if they themselves actually do the opposite, that is, by willful inoculation and deliberate exposure to natural infection.

    Proper infection prevention and control would be incomprehensible to us, so you won’t even bother trying to explain? Wow, that’s a great debating tactic.

  67. #67 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    “So does that mean that with vaccines containing dead bacteria that the dead bacteria infect the cells? Or does it only apply to viral antigens?”

    Dead pathogens, if unaided, essentially cannot initiate an infectious process since they are not capable of establishing a site of infection let alone breach the innate barrier. Therefore, for non-live vaccines, the site of injection and route of administration are thus more important to trigger an immune response (both innate and humoral) against the induced infection.

  68. #68 Matthew Cline
    March 4, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    I was talking about certain immune system cells taking in antigens and then presenting the antigens on their surface, a process which you call “infection”, and which you say is essential for an adaptive immune response to the antigens. Does this also happen with bacterial antigens? If so, does it count as the bacterial antigens “infecting” those immune system cells?

    To be absolutely clear, I’m talking about individual cells being infected, not the body overall being infected.

  69. #69 Matthew Cline
    March 4, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    Wait, to clear things up: does any immune system response to bacterial/viral antigens count as a infection? That is, if vaccine antigens cause no infection, then that’s the same as saying they cause no immune response?

  70. #70 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    “Does this also happen with bacterial antigens? If so, does it count as the bacterial antigens “infecting” those immune system cells?”

    It’s more than infection.

    The neurotoxin tetanospasmin causes tetanus when it reaches the central nervous system. In this autoradiographic study, 125-I-labeled tetanospasmin was injected into the leg muscles of rodents, and the nerves supplying these muscles were crushed. The labeled toxin accumulated within axons on the distal side of the crush. This study provides direct evidence for retrograde axonal transport of a macromolecular toxin that acts at synapses in the central nervous system. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/188/4191/945.abstract

  71. #71 Robert S.
    March 4, 2011

    Ok Th1Th2, you have shown you can copy and paste an abstract with #70. Now, in your own words, please tell us what you think that abstract means.

  72. #72 nybgrus
    March 4, 2011

    Ahhh! The stupid! It BURRRRNNNSS!

    “Vaccine antigens are not just ordinary, innocuous and ubiquitous antigens we encountered in the environment. These antigens are derived from pathogenic microorganisms. They are clearly associated with the disease, mode of transmission, mechanism of infectivity, thus immunogenicity and symptomatology. The immune system would respond differently against any pathogenic products compared to something that is not. Infections with known pathogens can occur intracellularly or extracellularly.”

    It is such an amazing show of stupidity when all three of our trolls come out of the woodwork. Really. It is like watching a 50 car pile up or Maury Povich – you feel so guilty for watching but just can’t peel your eyes away. I seriously feel dirty reading through all this stuff.

    I can’t resist… so, care to explain Th1Th2 (since your moniker implies you know something about the immune response though you clearly don’t have a frakkin’ clue) how EXACTLY the immune system is able to tell the difference between those reglar ol’ inokkuous anty-gens that is all ova’ da place and those dastardly deadly pathogenic antigens?

    Wait! I know… I got’s one uv dem fancy-pants “scientific” edjumakashuns that done taught me good ‘n’ proper. Here goes: them l’il white cells take a looky-loo at the anty-gens (which trust me, ain’t NUTHIN’ like ma sweet ol’ Auntie Jen!) and have themselves a conference. Now there’s these “professional” ones and dey is like the pezident. Da other ones is called the “helper” ones (see! jus’ like Th1Th2 dems is da ones!!) and dey advise the “professional” one as to where that darn ol’ anty-gen came from! And if it IS one of dem reglar ol’ ones dey just nod they heads and spit some chaw and keep sippin’ on dey sweet tea like it ain’t no neva mind. But when da “helper” ones tell the “professional” ones it is from one o’ dem NASTY rascally anty-gens well then the “professional” one gets all ornery and marshalls up the troops and gives ‘em a right good speech (just like the war of northern aggression) and gets them “helper” boys to rally that there “B” line o’ defense and sho’ ’nuff they eradicate that pathogen right natural like – them “B” line boys done get busier than a one legged man in a butt kickin contest! But you see, when you give one of those “vaccines” what you is actually doin’ is given that nasty rascally anty-gen but with no darned pathogen and so the “helper” boys get corn-fused and the “professional” Colonel get mad as a mule chewin’ on bumblebees and done yells at the “B” line and all hell breaks loose! They just go ’bout as crazy as a pair a ‘coons in a hubcap factory! And that, ma dear friends, is why vaccines is evil and they don’t wurk! And I gots science to prove me right!

  73. #73 Matthew Cline
    March 4, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    I’m still trying to understand what you mean by “infection”, and I came across this:

    Yes, because infection is a process of binding, digesting, processing and presenting antigens to the cell surface to be recognized regardless on MHC class 1 or 2.

    Is there anything besides “a process of binding, digesting, processing and presenting antigens to the cell surface” which counts as infection?

  74. #74 Matthew Cline
    March 4, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    Okay, now I’m really confused as to what you mean by “infection”. From here:

    Infection does not only pertain to parasitic organisms or colonization. Aside from helminths, there are the usual bacteria, intracellular bacteria, virus, cancer, yeasts, allergens, and toxins. [emphasis added]

    If you’re exposed to, say, cyanide, does that mean that you’re infected with cyanide? Or are you only infected with a toxin if the toxin is produced by bacteria/yeast/etc?

  75. #75 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    nybgrus,

    “how EXACTLY the immune system is able to tell the difference between those reglar ol’ inokkuous anty-gens that is all ova’ da place and those dastardly deadly pathogenic antigens?”

    It’s called Pathogen-Associated Molecular Pattern and vaccines are designed to exploit this process. Now you can fry that ovalbumin of yours

  76. #76 nybgrus
    March 4, 2011

    lol! PAMPS are only associated with innate immune response and refer to the highly conserved and phylogenetically old antigens. In other words… wait for it… have NOTHING to do with vaccines or sustained/adaptive/cellular/humoral immune response.

    Swing and miss! But nice try. I reckon this must be like being smart enough to know there is a door but not understanding it says “pull” not “push”

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wGr8njEWjtI/THbwoFKoXaI/AAAAAAAALyA/XQhoBjubHys/s400/Far+Side-gifted.jpg

  77. #77 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    “Wait, to clear things up: does any immune system response to bacterial/viral antigens count as a infection? That is, if vaccine antigens cause no infection, then that’s the same as saying they cause no immune response?”

    Vaccines MUST infect in order to to be recognized by the immune cells and effect an immune response.

  78. #78 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    nybgrus,

    Vaccine delivery: a matter of size, geometry, kinetics and molecular patterns]

    Martin F. Bachmann & Gary T. Jennings
    Abstract

    Researchers working on the development of vaccines face an inherent dilemma: to maximize immunogenicity without compromising safety and tolerability. Early vaccines often induced long-lived protective immune responses, but tolerability was a major problem. Newer vaccines have very few side effects but can be of limited immunogenicity. One way to tackle this problem is to design vaccines that have all the properties of pathogens with the exception of causing disease. Key features of pathogens that can be mimicked by vaccine delivery systems are their size, shape and surface molecule organization. In addition, pathogen-associated molecular patterns can be used to induce innate immune responses that promote adaptive immunity. In this Review, we discuss the approaches currently being used to optimize the delivery of antigens and enhance vaccine efficacy.http://www.nature.com/nri/journal/v10/n11/full/nri2868.html

    Do you really understand what you’re babbling?

  79. #79 Matthew Cline
    March 4, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    Vaccines MUST infect in order to to be recognized by the immune cells and effect an immune response.

    But what is infection, according to you? You’ve said:

    Yes, because infection is a process of binding, digesting, processing and presenting antigens to the cell surface to be recognized regardless on MHC class 1 or 2.

    But also:

    Infection does not only pertain to parasitic organisms or colonization. Aside from helminths, there are the usual bacteria, intracellular bacteria, virus, cancer, yeasts, allergens, and toxins. [emphasis added]

    What do “a process of binding, digesting, processing and presenting antigens to the cell surface” and toxins have in common that they can both be called “infection”?

  80. #80 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    Matthew,

    “What do “a process of binding, digesting, processing and presenting antigens to the cell surface” and toxins have in common that they can both be called “infection”?”

    No, they are not derived from ovalbumin like someone here wants to compare but rather the infection is clearly associated and tied with disease-causing microorganisms. Yes, we are bombarded with Paul Offit’s infamous 100,000 antigens but not all of them are pathogenic in nature but only those he finds financially ‘potent’.

  81. #81 Matthew Cline
    March 4, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    No, they are not derived from ovalbumin like someone here wants to compare but rather the infection is clearly associated and tied with disease-causing microorganisms.

    So, then, toxins produced by or associated with disease-causing microorganisms can cause an infection? And you still haven’t said what those toxins have in common with “a process of binding, digesting, processing and presenting antigens to the cell surface”, except for the fact that that process is also associated with disease-causing microorganisms.

    Is there anywhere online that has a definition of “infection” that you agree with? Then you can point me that, rather than going through this back-and-forth. Or maybe you can state in a few paragraphs your definition of “infection”.

  82. #82 MI Dawn
    March 4, 2011

    Gee, I went to bed early last night because I felt like I was coming down with the creeping crud that my husband had earlier in the week (which HE brought home from work…occupational hazard for a health care worker), and miss that TH1 is taking over the thread with xe’s nonsense. Good luck, Matt, getting ANY sense out of the Thing. We have tried for MONTHS over on SBM and never got any.

    Hey,Thing! Do your toddlers still say on nice, concrete sidewalks and never fall down and hurt themselves?

    (BTW: blood is not always ‘sterile’. Ever heard of sepsis?)

  83. #83 nybgrus
    March 4, 2011

    sadly, you don’t even understand the abstract you are putting up yourself:

    “In addition, pathogen-associated molecular patterns can be used to induce innate immune responses that promote adaptive immunity.”

    Once again, that is INNATE immunity and does NOT directly deal with adaptive immunity. It is a method to increase immunogenicity without increasing toxicity by eliciting an increased cytokine response to indirectly further stimulate the adaptive immune response. That, in fact, illustrates how the immune system CANNOT distinguish between antigens via the trickery used. But I suppose I do have to concede a point – I can’t say they have NOTHING to do with vaccination or the adaptive immune response.

    It’s a shame you can’t understand the rest of the abstract. Or the concept of infection. Or really anything at all about immunity.

    I know, perhaps we can do an experiment. Me, Chris, and Matthew Cline will be in the “experimental” arm and receive a smallpox vaccine. You, Auggie, and Sid will will be in the “control” arm and NOT receive the vaccination. Then, we will all have coffee in an airtight room and release smallpox into the airconditioning. Then we will see how happy we are about getting vaccinated or not. :-)

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wGr8njEWjtI/THbwoFKoXaI/AAAAAAAALyA/XQhoBjubHys/s400/Far+Side-gifted.jpg

  84. #84 augustine
    March 4, 2011

    nybrgurs

    You, Auggie, and Sid will will be in the “control” arm and NOT receive the vaccination. Then, we will all have coffee in an airtight room and release smallpox into the airconditioning. Then we will see how happy we are about getting vaccinated or not. :-)

    Wooo. So confident about vaccines in hypothetical experiments yet so afraid that the unvaccinated will kill the vaccinated in real life. Which is it? Depends on which argument and which goalpost you want to use I suppose.

  85. #85 LW
    March 4, 2011

    Wow, augustine made a reasonable point! I was thinking the same thing: I wouldn’t be too sanguine about that experiment. I was vaccinated twice against smallpox as a child, but I have no scar, proving that I never developed immunity. My best friend was vaccinated once, but he likewise has no scar. The only reason we two vaccine failures didn’t get smallpox is that most everyone around us was immune thanks to vaccination so epidemics couldn’t get started.

    Although, hmm, that seems to undercut the point augustine was trying to make. In fact, the unvaccinated are a threat to the vaccinated because the vaccinated may be vaccine failures. The unvaccinated are a bigger threat to themselves, though, which is why anti-vax arguments make no sense to me. Freeriding on herd immunity is logical if irresponsible, but trying simultaneously to destroy herd immunity is irrational.

  86. #86 Mu
    March 4, 2011

    If there would be huge profits in vaccine production, the facilities would be owned by Indian tribes who can use sovereign immunity to shield themselves from lawsuits. Alas, it’s not as profitable as running casinos, so we do have to shield Big Pharma from the tort lawyers.
    The insanity of all this makes you wonder where this country lost it’s collective sense.

  87. #87 augustine
    March 4, 2011

    LW

    I was thinking the same thing: I wouldn’t be too sanguine about that experiment.

    Hmmm. Scienceblogger: “I’m not certain that my vaccine even works but I want you to vaccinate anyway because that makes me feel better about herd immunity. And herd immunity says that if you’re vaccinated then I’ll be protected if my vaccine fails. Even though I’m not sure if yours will fail either.”

    Mu

    If there would be huge profits in vaccine production, the facilities would be owned by Indian tribes who can use sovereign immunity to shield themselves from lawsuits.

    Didn’t the scienceblogger’s grandfathers kill the indians?
    Here. We’ve come to help you and keep you warm. Wrap yourself in these blankets. Courtesy of the United States Government. (today it’s called the CDC)

  88. #88 Gray Falcon
    March 4, 2011

    Augustine: Let me ask you something. Driving safely will not guarantee that you’ll never be in a car accident. Does that mean that you shouldn’t bother? Please learn basic probability before you argue.

  89. #89 BraselC5048
    March 4, 2011

    Quote: “Therefore, for non-live vaccines, the site of injection and route of administration are thus more important to trigger an immune response (both innate and humoral) against the induced infection.”

    Humoral? Please tell me he doesn’t mean as in the 4 humors. As in middle ages/pre scientific medicine. It does mean something else, right? Right?

    Also, does anybody know which thread it was where th1/th2 made a fool of himself with the ‘toddlers perfer sidewalk over dirt’ comment. I don’t remember which thred it was, and I could use a laugh.

    Also: “No, someone else brought it to you. You just didn’t know it.”
    You just proved our point.

  90. #90 Beamup
    March 4, 2011

    @ Brasel:

    The “humoral” immune system is that part associated with antibodies. The idiot troll is an idiot with less than no understanding of the immune system, but did get that right.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humoral_immune_system

    The idiot troll’s comment in question happened over on Orac’s ‘friend’s’ blog.

  91. #91 JohnV
    March 4, 2011

    @augustine

    “Didn’t the scienceblogger’s grandfathers kill the indians?”

    You presume to know a lot about the ancestry of people. You are also very stupid. But we all knew that.

  92. #92 altın çilek
    March 4, 2011

    The “humoral” immune system is that part associated with antibodies. The idiot troll is an idiot with less than no understanding of the immune system, but did get that right

  93. #93 moliva
    March 4, 2011

    augustine

    “Didn’t the scienceblogger’s grandfathers kill the indians?”

    You presume to know a lot about the ancestry of people. You are also very stupid. But we all knew that

  94. #94 MI Dawn
    March 4, 2011

    @BraselC5048: the Thingtroll’s comments about toddlers and sidewalks were made over on its usual slithering ground – Science-Based Medicine, on one of the vaccine posts there. I don’t recall which one, and searching for all the Thing’s comments will probably cause severe nausea and vomiting. You may be able to search more efficiently than I can, anyway (my computer here is on IE6 and I’m having a LOT of issues with websites lately).

    Chris might have the comment bookmarked; she is good with things like that. Watch for her comments if you don’t want to search SBM.

  95. #95 skeptiquette
    March 4, 2011

    lol! PAMPS are only associated with innate immune response and refer to the highly conserved and phylogenetically old antigens. In other words… wait for it… have NOTHING to do with vaccines or sustained/adaptive/cellular/humoral immune response.

    Swing and miss! But nice try. I reckon this must be like being smart enough to know there is a door but not understanding it says “pull” not “push”

    Sigh…. Actually, PAMPS have everything to do with vaccines and the sustained/adaptive/cellular/humoral immune response. Do you think these things just happen magically? One of you guys that knows what you are talking about should do a blog post detailing how vaccines work, so that the rest of you can read it and clear up the many misconceptions that seem to be pervasive.

    The components of a vaccine elicit an innate immune response, first and foremost, this results in a cytokine response. These cytokines (immune signaling molecules) direct the immune system to complete an adaptive response.

    There is no magic involved… seriously this is immunology 101.

  96. #96 augustine
    March 4, 2011

    Please learn basic probability before you argue.

    Your children will probably not die from measles if you don’t vaccinate them. And it’s a very very good probability.

  97. #97 Drivebyposter
    March 4, 2011

    Your children will probably not die from measles if you don’t vaccinate them. And it’s a very very good probability.

    Yes, I’m sure this will always be the case. There is no chance whatsoever that the occurrence of a disease will increase once population’s immunity to it decreases.

  98. #98 Chris
    March 4, 2011

    BraselC5048:

    Also, does anybody know which thread it was where th1/th2 made a fool of himself with the ‘toddlers perfer sidewalk over dirt’ comment. I don’t remember which thred it was, and I could use a laugh.

    I posted it in Comment #7. Have fun.

  99. #99 MI Dawn
    March 4, 2011

    @drivebyposter: Of course there is no chance. I mean, it’s not like measles aren’t endemic in England again, or anything like that.

    And, of course, according to little augie, the kids who died of measles over there in the past few years don’t count because they aren’t USAians or were defective in some way, or something.

  100. #100 MI Dawn
    March 4, 2011

    Oh, and @Chris: I wasn’t sure if your link at #7 was the right one or not since I couldn’t get my computer to follow it (your link looks fine but my computer gets very cranky about following links to SBM for some reason). Thanks for making it clear. :-)

  101. #101 Chris
    March 4, 2011

    Thanks, the link works for me (on Firefox). MI Dawn, have you tried a different browser like Chrome or Opera? I run both Explorer and Firefox on my laptop because some websites get cranky on one or the other. My daughter added Chrome to our shared desktop.

  102. #102 Beamup
    March 4, 2011

    Your children will probably not die from measles if you don’t vaccinate them. And it’s a very very good probability.

    They also probably won’t die if you cross the street without looking. Doesn’t make it a good idea.

  103. #103 MI Dawn
    March 4, 2011

    @Chris: unfortunately, at work I only have the choice of IE6. I can’t install any other choices nor can I upgrade. At home, I use and love Firefox. As I said, I don’t think it was your link, I’m pretty sure it’s either IE6 or my work firewall.

  104. #104 Chris
    March 4, 2011

    MI Dawn, sounds logical.

  105. #105 Denice Walter
    March 4, 2011

    @ nybgrus: “sweet tea”?**

    My love, don’t you think that you’d *really* _rather_ have Twinings or a nice Sencha that you get at the Japanese supermarket for $12.50 per oz.? You’re going to be a doctor: you’d better wrangle up scads of snootiness and hauteur, and FAST!

    ** Auntie Jen!!!!

  106. #106 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    nybgrus,

    “Once again, that is INNATE immunity and does NOT directly deal with adaptive immunity. It is a method to increase immunogenicity without increasing toxicity by eliciting an increased cytokine response to indirectly further stimulate the adaptive immune response. That, in fact, illustrates how the immune system CANNOT distinguish between antigens via the trickery used.”

    I do not understand what you’re trying to say here. Maybe you can go back to that silly babble you’re ‘corn-fused’.

    “I know, perhaps we can do an experiment. Me, Chris, and Matthew Cline will be in the “experimental” arm and receive a smallpox vaccine. You, Auggie, and Sid will will be in the “control” arm and NOT receive the vaccination. Then, we will all have coffee in an airtight room and release smallpox into the airconditioning. Then we will see how happy we are about getting vaccinated or not. :-)”

    I’ll pass. I’m not crazy enough to join the boat ride. This is the reason why pro-vax and pro-pox people have remained a dangerous threat to the newborns and naive children. They always have this infection-promoting agenda at all times.

  107. #107 augustine
    March 4, 2011

    And, of course, according to little augie, the kids who died of measles over there in the past few years don’t count because they aren’t USAians or were defective in some way, or something.

    How many kids died in the past few years?

    http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733835814

  108. #108 augustine
    March 4, 2011

    Oh, you assumed endemic, pandemic, epidemic, outbreak, etc., meant death and massive death. Don’t let your emotions get ahead of your facts.

  109. #109 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    LW,

    “I was vaccinated twice against smallpox as a child, but I have no scar, proving that I never developed immunity. My best friend was vaccinated once, but he likewise has no scar.”

    Remnant vaccinial scar is only a physical sign that you’ve been branded as part of the herd. Maybe the vaccinator did a piss poor job of branding you. Seriously, the failure to develop any localized lesion either in a primary or revaccination does not mean failure of the process of infection.

    ‘The only reason we two vaccine failures didn’t get smallpox is that most everyone around us was immune thanks to vaccination so epidemics couldn’t get started.”

    First off, you didn’t get smallpox simply because you were not inoculated with it. What you had was vaccinial infection–so the rest of the herd, which is a better alternative than getting smallpox.

    “In fact, the unvaccinated are a threat to the vaccinated because the vaccinated may be vaccine failures. The unvaccinated are a bigger threat to themselves, though, which is why anti-vax arguments make no sense to me. Freeriding on herd immunity is logical if irresponsible, but trying simultaneously to destroy herd immunity is irrational.”

    Wow. That’s quite inaccurate. The unvaccinated were never infected in the first place until some people with infection-promoting agenda inoculated them with the disease or their uniformed parents exposed them to natural infection. How can they be a threat?

  110. #110 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    BraselC5048,

    ‘You just proved our point.”

    Babies recognize their mother’s face at an early age. They know their SAFE with them at their side but they cannot determine accurately if their mother is a fool or not.

  111. #111 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    “Sigh…. Actually, PAMPS have everything to do with vaccines and the sustained/adaptive/cellular/humoral immune response. Do you think these things just happen magically? One of you guys that knows what you are talking about should do a blog post detailing how vaccines work, so that the rest of you can read it and clear up the many misconceptions that seem to be pervasive.”

    No offense. Maybe these persons have inborn port-a-cath imbedded in them and that their body is composed entirely of lymph.

    “The components of a vaccine elicit an innate immune response, first and foremost, this results in a cytokine response. These cytokines (immune signaling molecules) direct the immune system to complete an adaptive response.

    There is no magic involved… seriously this is immunology 101.”

    Nygbrus, listen up please.

  112. #112 Beamup
    March 4, 2011

    I wonder if we could get jen, STY, maybe medicin man involved here. Between the two we’ve already got, the cluelessness is reaching neutron star density. Let’s go for black hole!

  113. #113 Brandon
    March 4, 2011

    I’m kind of blown away that something calling itself “Th1Th2″ would be so horribly and wildly ignorant of both basic germ theory and basic immunology. Seriously, who the hell believes that exposure to antigens constitutes “infection”?

  114. #114 MI Dawn
    March 4, 2011

    Th1 said: “Babies recognize their mother’s face at an early age. They know their (sic) SAFE with them at their side but they cannot determine accurately if their mother is a fool or not”

    Well,Th1,anyone who belives that children are never exposed to antigens if they are protected, and who believes that children never hurt themselves, stray off sidewalks, or eat things they shouldn’t IS a fool. ‘Nuff said.

    @little augie: I know quite well what endemic, epidemic, etc mean. I did NOT say there was an epidemic of measles in England. I DID say that measles were again ENDEMIC there.

    As for the deaths (emphasis mine): “In 2006 there was one measles death in a 13 years old male who had an underlying lung condition and was taking immunosuppressive drugs. Another death in 2008 was also due to acute measles in unvaccinated child with congenital immunodeficiency whose condition did not require treatment with immunoglobulin. Prior to 2006, the last death from acute measles was in 1992.

    All other measles deaths, since 1992, shown above are in older individuals and were caused by the late effects of measles. These infections were acquired during the 1980s or earlier, when epidemics of measles occurred.

    Source: http://www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733835814

    2 deaths in the 2 years 2006-2008. Prior to that ZERO deaths from acute measles since 1992. ZERO But I suppose 2 deaths only are important to their families, since they were both immunosuppressed children. They aren’t important in YOUR vision of the world, are they? Uncaring twit.

  115. #115 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    Brandon,

    “I’m kind of blown away that something calling itself “Th1Th2″ would be so horribly and wildly ignorant of both basic germ theory and basic immunology. Seriously, who the hell believes that exposure to antigens constitutes “infection”?”

    So who the hell believes that exposure to tetanospasmin, in the absence of the bacilli, would cause tetanus once injected into the host? I’m not a germ denialist that’s why I recognized them as pathogens, that is, infectious antigens.

    If you happen to receive blood transfusion, would you accept an HbsAg-positive donor blood even in the absence of HBV?

    It’s easy to say vaccine antigens are just ordinary ‘molecules’ if you’re talking to a child or to the uninformed. Apparently, there are smart people that can refute and debunk your superstitious belief let alone fantasy.

  116. #116 Brandon
    March 4, 2011

    Negative results of a tetanus toxin are not an example of infection. Infection doesn’t mean, “something bad happened”.

    I think you literally don’t know what infection is, and that’s the root of the misunderstanding. This seems to be a deliberate misunderstanding on your part though, as it’s really not very difficult at all to find out what infection does refer to.

  117. #117 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    Brandon,

    “Negative results of a tetanus toxin are not an example of infection. Infection doesn’t mean, “something bad happened”.”

    Oh yes it does. Blood tests can tell you not only active infection but your previous exposure to infections as well.

  118. #118 Brandon
    March 4, 2011

    This is why I said I’m blown away. You really, genuinely believe that a toxin constitutes an infection. That’s mind numbing idiocy, to just insist that words don’t mean what they mean. Despite your insistence otherwise, it’s pretty evident that you really do fall into the germ theory denialist family.

  119. #119 BraselC5048
    March 4, 2011

    Th1 said: “Babies recognize their mother’s face at an early age. They know their (sic) SAFE with them at their side but they cannot determine accurately if their mother is a fool or not”
    That is completly irrevelent to this discussion.
    I would like to ask the question: how to you avoid exposing your child to people who are carrying an infectious disease? Givin that people can be contagious several days before ahowing any symptoms, and the inevitiability of being nearby someone who is sick eventually at say,a store, at school, or on a plane. Also, you can infect your own child, such as by meating someone who is sick at work, and then taking it home with you, and you won’t show any symptoms for a few days, but still be contagious. Remember, many of these people may not show any symptoms, be still be contagious.

  120. #120 MI Dawn
    March 4, 2011

    @BraselC5048: ah, but what you don’t understand is that in Th1′s world, you KNOW the second you are exposed to infection and therefore can quarantine yourself immediately. There is no such thing in the Th’s world as an asymptomatic carrier, nor someone who is infectious but not having symptoms. That’s the fun of talking at the Thing. They really, really, really live in their own little world. (You don’t talk TO the Thing, because that implies an exchange of ideas, and Thing does not accept ideas that are contrary to those already held by Thing)

  121. #121 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    Brandon,

    Tetanus toxin in a serum sample

    The detection of tetanus toxin in a serum sample provides laboratory confirmation of a clinical diagnosis of tetanus. Failure to detect toxin in serum does not, however, negate a clinical diagnosis.
    From:Tetanus: information for health professionals.

    You have no where to run. It’s either you’re the real germ denialist or a medical heretic.

  122. #122 MI Dawn
    March 4, 2011

    @Th1: (sigh)do you even READ what you are copy/pasting?

    “The detection of tetanus toxin in a serum sample provides laboratory confirmation of a clinical diagnosis of tetanus. Failure to detect toxin in serum does not, however, negate a clinical diagnosis.”

    A CLINICAL diagnosis of tetanus is not confirmed or denied by detection of tetanus toxin. If present, it confirms a clinical diagnosis. If not present, however, it does NOT negate the clinical diagnosis of tetanus. Now, tell us how a clinical diagnosis of tetanus is made, please. With real references.

    I’m going home now, and have activities planned for tonight and the weekend. I’ll try to catch up when I can. Bye, all.

  123. #123 Todd W.
    March 4, 2011

    @Brandon and others

    Over at SBM, people have tried, repeatedly and at length, to teach some basics of immunology to Thing 1, Thing 2. No matter how many times it is explained, nor in what manner it is explained, the thing just doesn’t get it and makes the same erroneous assertions over and over, without modification. It apparently cannot learn. Thus, arguing with it is pointless in the extreme. It should just be ignored.

  124. #124 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    BraselC5048,

    Tetanus diagnosis is primarily based on clinical symptoms but my point is against your premise when you stated: “Negative results of a tetanus toxin are not an example of infection. Infection doesn’t mean, “something bad happened”.

    Does the presence of tetanus toxin in the blood tell something about a possible infection? Does its presence reject the idea that it might lead to an invasive infection? Or is that they are naturally free circulating toxins in the blood and therefore “doesn’t mean, “something bad happened”? Which one is it?

  125. #125 Science Mom
    March 4, 2011

    Does the presence of tetanus toxin in the blood tell something about a possible infection?

    @Th1Th2, Doesn’t tell you squat because there is no tetanus toxin-specific blood test.

  126. #126 Narad
    March 4, 2011

    That’s mind numbing idiocy, to just insist that words don’t mean what they mean.

    This is the whole point of the activity. Well, that and endlessly dragging out the exercise by keeping the novel semantics hidden in its pants for as long as possible.

  127. #127 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    Apparently there is, you’re not just looking:
    ——
    Tetanus toxin in a serum sample

    Samples for testing for the presence of tetanus toxin must be collected before any immunoglobulin treatment, and referred to the Food Safety Microbiology Laboratory (FSML) at:
    Food Safety Microbiology Laboratory
    Specialist and Reference Microbiology Division
    HPA Colindale, 61 Colindale Avenue, London, NW9 5EQ
    For further information on this, please contact Jim McLauchlin, FSML, tel: 020 8200 4400 ext 7117
    ——

    Doctors are just too lazy to do that as they are more comfortable diagnosing tetanus right away without evidence of some sort which then leads to unnecessary vaccination. @#$% ridiculous.

  128. #128 Brandon
    March 4, 2011

    @121

    Your entire post is a non-sequitur. What the fuck are you attempting to get at?

  129. #129 Brandon
    March 4, 2011

    @Todd W.

    Thanks for the pro tip… I should have noticed that a bit earlier. It’s hard for me to even understand how someone could be so completely clueless and so completely sure they’re knowledgeable. I say “a toxin isn’t an infection” and get a rant about serum tests… just a huge /facepalm is really all that can be done.

  130. #130 nybgrus
    March 4, 2011

    my apologies to the science crowd. In my bombastic zeal with the thing and the other trolls I started spouting off at the mouth without giving my usual thought to the posts. PAMPs indeed do play a role in vaccination but NOT in the way Thing was asserting. Of course, the issue here is that such discussions (to be valid ones) require thought, nuance, and understanding. Something our trolls lack to the utmost degree and something I flung out the window when watching the train wreck that is the 3 of them on this thread.

    Once again, apologies to my fellow science based individuals. I have simply given up trying to engage these things on a reasonable and intellectual level. There is truly no point. I will leave this to the rest of you.

    And auggie, please, you have killed enough of my brain cells:

    “Wooo. So confident about vaccines in hypothetical experiments yet so afraid that the unvaccinated will kill the vaccinated in real life. Which is it? Depends on which argument and which goalpost you want to use I suppose.”

    Yes, if I were immunized, had a proper seroconversion, and was exposed to the pathogen I would be pretty confident. 100% so? No… but for the chance of watching the 3 of you die from smallpox, I would take that (small) risk. As for “moving goalposts” none have moved. I am not afraid of unvaccinated people killing the vaccinated. No one is. Period. We are afraid that enough idiots like you wont get vaccinated, destroy herd immunity, and disease will sweep through the populace – oh wait, that already happened with measles in the UK after Wakefraud wrote his paper. I will be fine but the children that aren’t old enough to be vaccinated and the elderly whose immune systems are not as robust and the patients on chemotherapy and the small percentage for whom vaccination actually didn’t work will not be fine. And that is what we tend to care about. The people who will die from lack of immunity. Unlike trolls like you, we actually think about more than just ourselves.

  131. #131 Science Mom
    March 4, 2011

    Apparently there is, you’re not just looking:

    No, not commercially available and also of relatively low sensitivity and specificity.

    Doctors are just too lazy to do that as they are more comfortable diagnosing tetanus right away without evidence of some sort which then leads to unnecessary vaccination. @#$% ridiculous.

    Bollocks. Why don’t you become a physician or research scientist so you can fix all of these alleged problems? The tests aren’t reliably diagnostic due to the nature of the bacterium and the toxoid. Besides, sending a sample from the U.S. to the UK and wait for confirmation for post-exposure prophylaxis isn’t exactly best practise, in spite of what you believe. Even UK physicians don’t routinely rely upon such tests.

  132. #132 T. Bruce McNeely
    March 4, 2011

    Th1Th2 is just spewing nonsense. Tetanus is a clinical diagnosis. The lab tests (toxin assay etc) can confirm a clinical diagnosis but a negative result tells us nothing -the patient is still considered to have tetanus if the clinical signs are there. The clinical test (spatula test) actually is better than any lab tests devised co far.

    It’s not “laziness” that leads to early diagnosis of tetanus. It’s the fatality rate, 50-75% of severe cases.

    Th1Th2 mentions “unnecessary” vaccination. Giving a tetanus booster to someone with a wound who isn’t current with their immunization is standard care.

    What would Th1Th2 suggest doing? Wait until signs of tetanus appear, then wait around for an insensitive lab test before starting treatment?

    Nice demonstration of cluelessness, there.

  133. #133 Chris
    March 4, 2011

    nybgrus:

    my apologies to the science crowd. In my bombastic zeal with the thing and the other trolls I started spouting off at the mouth without giving my usual thought to the posts.

    That is why I post the link and snippet as a warning. There is something seriously wrong with that person’s perception of reality, and it is futile to attempt any kind of sensible discussion. The same goes for the fool who thinks all engineers are men, and when he finds out that one is a woman comes to the conclusion that it is only possible by her having gone through a sex change.

    Their world has nothing to do with reality, and they have welded their little skulls shut to any kind of new information. It actually gets quite boring repeating the same stuff to them over and over again. So it is better to ignore them.

  134. #134 nybgrus
    March 4, 2011

    Chris:

    You are, of course, right. Sometimes I just feel plucky I guess. And my southern redneck rendition of immunology got me on a roll. I suppose I also lowered my standards since I do not feel the same onus to be accurate and nuances with the trolls.

    Funny that you should mention engineering though. My (beautiful blond) girlfriend is currently doing her masters research project in hypersonics engineering at the same uni where I am doing my medical degree. She gets quite a few odd looks when people find out what she does.

  135. #135 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    “Tetanus is a clinical diagnosis. The lab tests (toxin assay etc) can confirm a clinical diagnosis but a negative result tells us nothing -the patient is still considered to have tetanus if the clinical signs are there.”

    That was discussed already. But my question remains, what is the implication of the presence of tetanus toxin in the blood in the absence of symptoms?

    “It’s not “laziness” that leads to early diagnosis of tetanus. It’s the fatality rate, 50-75% of severe cases.”

    Of course there are iatrogenic deaths too arising from scientific wild ass guess, which by the way happens all the time in the hospital setting.

    “Giving a tetanus booster to someone with a wound who isn’t current with their immunization is standard care.”

    What’s in the booster? Of course, the pathogenic evidence doctors are transmitting to the patient, something the patient don’t have.

    “What would Th1Th2 suggest doing? Wait until signs of tetanus appear, then wait around for an insensitive lab test before starting treatment?”

    No tetanus symptoms will appear if there’s no etiologic agent to cause it. A tetanus syringe is more intrusive than a simple wound which only require some thorough cleansing. And besides, what Brasel have said “”Negative results of a tetanus toxin are not an example of infection. Infection doesn’t mean, “something bad happened”.”

  136. #136 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    Science Mom,

    “The tests aren’t reliably diagnostic due to the nature of the bacterium and the toxoid.”

    Reminds me of that old line… Question: “What do you call a doctor who graduated last in his med school class?” Answer: “Doctor”. No wonder patients always run the risk.

  137. #137 herr doktor bimler
    March 4, 2011

    Hey, welcome to the Th1 Troll!

    Augustine will have to lift his game.

  138. #138 Matthew Cline
    March 4, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    Look, you’re using such a different definition of “infection” than everyone else that it’s impossible to communicate with you about the subject of infections. If you provide your definition of “infection” then maybe we could have a meaningful dialog.

  139. #139 Science Mom
    March 4, 2011

    Reminds me of that old line… Question: “What do you call a doctor who graduated last in his med school class?” Answer: “Doctor”. No wonder patients always run the risk.

    And this is your response to me for your lack of understanding about serological tests? Considering the swill you peddle, I don’t think you are in a position to criticise the profession.

  140. #140 Prometheus
    March 4, 2011

    I know I’m going to regret this….

    Th1Th2 (who, despite the catchy name, apparently knows nothing about immunology) asks:

    “That was discussed already. But my question remains, what is the implication of the presence of tetanus toxin in the blood in the absence of symptoms?”

    Three possibilities exist:

    [1] The toxin is present in the bloodstream as the result of an on-going infection with C. tetani but has sufficient antibodies to block the tetanospasmin toxin. This would only be possible if the test for the toxin was not antibody-based and did not depend on neurological effect of the toxin.

    [2] The toxin gene has mutated to produce a toxin that is not active in the neurons, but has retained the antibody epitope or other features that result in a positive test. This would only be possible if the test didn’t rely on neurological effect of the toxin.

    [3] It is a false-positive test.

    Tetanus is not a difficult disease to diagnose – at least, not in the later stages. As a result, there is little to be gained by performing a laboratory test to confirm it. The test Th1Th2 is referring to, if my research is correct, is a mouse bioassay. Neither a very sensitive or very quick test – and not one that is easily done.

    “What’s in the booster? Of course, the pathogenic evidence doctors are transmitting to the patient, something the patient don’t [sic] have.”

    The “booster” contains inactivated tetanospasmin in quantities sufficient to stimulate an immune response. The problem with tetanus is that even a life-threatening case doesn’t produce enough toxin to stimulate an immune response, so there’s no way to get a “natural” immunity.

    The part about “pathogenic evidence” seems like word-salad, so I can’t address it. Maybe Th1Th2 could be more clear. Or not.

    “No tetanus symptoms will appear if there’s no etiologic agent to cause it.”

    True enough, so far, but then Th1Th2 continues with:

    “A tetanus syringe is more intrusive than a simple wound which only require [sic] some thorough cleansing.”

    Oddly enough, the needle used to inject the tetanus vaccine makes a very small wound – much less “intrusive” than a nail or splinter. Of course, if Th1Th2 thinks that they’re using the syringe to penetrate the skin, that would account for some of the confusion.

    “And besides, what Brasel have [sic] said ‘Negative results of a tetanus toxin are not an example of infection.’ Infection doesn’t mean, ‘something bad happened.’”

    As I think I have explained about, the tetanospasmin assay isn’t sensitive enough to detect low levels of the toxin, which is why a negative result isn’t informative. In fact, the only reason to do the test would be if there was some reason to suspect that what appeared – clinically – to be tetanus might be something else.

    The statement “Infection doesn’t mean ‘something bad happened’.” is entirely true…from the perspective of the infecting organism. For the host, however, bacterial infections (and most viral infections) are “something bad”.

    Mind you, I have no illusions that Th1Th2 will be swayed by my arguments (or even understand them). I am addressing this to those people on the ‘blog who are seeking information and are open-minded enough to receive it. Th1Th2 has demonstrated repeatedly that he/she has “found the truth” and isn’t interested in the data.

    Prometheus

  141. #141 T. Bruce McNeely
    March 4, 2011

    Their world has nothing to do with reality, and they have welded their little skulls shut to any kind of new information. It actually gets quite boring repeating the same stuff to them over and over again. So it is better to ignore them.

    So true. Something about teaching pigs to sing comes to mind.

  142. #142 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    Prometheus,

    The presence of tetanus toxin in the blood in the absence of C. tetani (isolation of the bacilli – negative), do you consider that as an infection?

    Would you be elated to accept blood donations that are positive for tetanospasmin despite the absence of C. tetani?

    “Tetanus is not a difficult disease to diagnose – at least, not in the later stages.”

    That translates as, it is not difficult to guess, especially when doctors are clueless. The administration of tetanus shot would only justify their ignorance.

    “The “booster” contains inactivated tetanospasmin in quantities sufficient to stimulate an immune response. The problem with tetanus is that even a life-threatening case doesn’t produce enough toxin to stimulate an immune response, so there’s no way to get a “natural” immunity.’

    Like I said, there’s no way a patient can get tetanus in the absence of an offending agent. The inoculation of a weakened toxin doesn’t help at all – a mere shot-in-the dark approach.

    “Oddly enough, the needle used to inject the tetanus vaccine makes a very small wound – much less “intrusive” than a nail or splinter. Of course, if Th1Th2 thinks that they’re using the syringe to penetrate the skin, that would account for some of the confusion.”

    It’s not about the wound, but what’s inside the syringe.

    “The statement “Infection doesn’t mean ‘something bad happened’.” is entirely true…from the perspective of the infecting organism. For the host, however, bacterial infections (and most viral infections) are “something bad”.”

    You sounded like Megamind, “For the greater good of bad.” WTH are you talking about?

  143. #143 Matthew Cline
    March 4, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    The presence of tetanus toxin in the blood in the absence of C. tetani (isolation of the bacilli – negative), do you consider that as an infection?

    It’s pointless to ask a question like that when you use a different definition of “infection” than everyone else, and no-one else knows exactly what you definition of “infection” is. Of course, you could fix this problem by telling us exactly what you definition is.

  144. #144 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    Science Mom,

    “And this is your response to me for your lack of understanding about serological tests? Considering the swill you peddle, I don’t think you are in a position to criticise the profession.”

    You said there’s not a test for tetanus but I have proved it otherwise. What are you trying to pull?

    A profession which is responsible for more than 700,000 iatrogenic deaths every year is something I am not impressed of.

  145. #145 Matthew Cline
    March 4, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    No tetanus symptoms will appear if there’s no etiologic agent to cause it.

    Out of pure curiosity: if there were a medical test which could determine if there were enough of the etiologic agent (Clostridium tetani) present in a person to eventually cause tetanus symptoms, what do you think the best course of treatment would be?

  146. #146 Sid Offit
    March 4, 2011

    nybgrus

    that already happened with measles in the UK after Wakefraud wrote his paper

    I hear this a lot. Could be true. Do you have any documentation other than Paul Offit and/or his lap dog Seth Mnookin said it.

  147. #147 Sid Offit
    March 4, 2011

    @T Bruce

    Giving a tetanus booster to someone with a wound who isn’t current with their immunization is standard care

    Just curious as to the rational of giving a booster in addition to the TIG (to let’s say someone who’s never been vaccinated)

  148. #148 Science Mom
    March 4, 2011

    You said there’s not a test for tetanus but I have proved it otherwise. What are you trying to pull?

    A profession which is responsible for more than 700,000 iatrogenic deaths every year is something I am not impressed of.

    The UK’s HPA offers a test that is not reliable and not even used much at all. How does that fit in with the rest of the world? There are effectively, no toxin seroassays used for tetanus diagnoses. As to your second paragraph, you are shifting the goal-posts and you are really in no position to criticise.

    The presence of tetanus toxin in the blood in the absence of C. tetani (isolation of the bacilli – negative), do you consider that as an infection?

    I know you simply don’t get it so for others who may be interested, a serological test for tetanus toxin is rarely, if ever used, secondly, bacterial isolation is extremely difficult and also not reliable so both could be negative and still have a C. tetani bacterial infection. The rest is just your usual ignorance.

  149. #149 Chris
    March 4, 2011

    Not that the trolls would care, but there is an excellent description of tetanus in a teenager by Science Mom’s co-blogger, Catherina.

  150. #150 T. Bruce McNeely
    March 4, 2011

    Just curious as to the rational of giving a booster in addition to the TIG (to let’s say someone who’s never been vaccinated)

    My example was regarding a patient who was not up to date on his or her tetanus immunizations (IIRC, >10 years since the last booster). This is a far more common situation than a patient who has never been immunized against tetanus. The booster produces a rapid immune response that will restore immunity well before the C. tetani would have a chance to proliferate and produce the toxins. As far as an un-immunized patient goes, they would be given the standard dose of vaccine for immunization. This again gives the immune system a “head start” on any possible infection and toxemia by C. tetani. It does take a few days for the infection to get going. In the meantime, exposure to the vaccine will have already started the immunization process.

  151. #151 Chris
    March 4, 2011

    T. Bruce McNeely:As far as an un-immunized patient goes, they would be given the standard dose of vaccine for immunization. This again gives the immune system a “head start” on any possible infection and toxemia by C. tetani. It does take a few days for the infection to get going.

    This is important to keep in mind when reading the link I posted just before T. Bruce McNeely (why do I keep thinking of a shark who keeps saying “fish are our friends, not food” when I see his name?). This is why the following bit is crucial:

    A day later we get a chronological account. It appears that the wound was cleaned and sutured soon after the accident, but the immunisations were not given until the control visit 3 days later. The tetanus symptoms started another couple of days after that, so 5 or 6 days after the injury.

  152. #152 Chris
    March 4, 2011

    I forgot to use preview! Folks, just imagine that the paragraph after Dr. McNeely’s name is a blockquote.

  153. #153 Narad
    March 4, 2011

    No tetanus symptoms will appear if there’s no etiologic agent to cause it.

    If anyone has institutional access, I’m mildly curious about the semantic hijinks that might be offered by this.

  154. #154 Sid Offit
    March 4, 2011

    @T Bruce

    Speaking from memory, I thought it took too long for a vaccine to generate an immune response (in an unvaccinated individual) so the TIG (acting fast enough for the head start) would be the mechanism by which to treat a tetanus prone wound. Does the vaccine have any value in the actual treatment process? (Again based on my impression is you can’t induce immunity with a vaccine in time) I’ve been curious to hear from your side on this since I see the recommended treatments in the literature but little rational for it.

  155. #155 Matthew Cline
    March 4, 2011

    T. Bruce McNeely (why do I keep thinking of a shark who keeps saying “fish are our friends, not food” when I see his name?)

    I think that one of the vegetarian sharks from the movie Finding Nemo was named Bruce.

  156. #156 dedicated lurker
    March 4, 2011

    Sid – since there is no such thing as immunity to tetanus, the idea is to kill tetanus before they have released tetanus toxin. The TIG is intended to fight the present toxin.

  157. #157 Chris
    March 4, 2011

    Sid Troll:

    Does the vaccine have any value in the actual treatment process? (Again based on my impression is you can’t induce immunity with a vaccine in time)

    Info here (it is a link, click on it):

    All wounds should be cleaned. Necrotic tissue and foreign material should be removed. If tetanic spasms are occurring, supportive therapy and maintenance of an adequate airway are critical.

    Tetanus immune globulin (TIG) is recommended for persons with tetanus. TIG can only help remove unbound tetanus toxin. It cannot affect toxin bound to nerve endings. A single intramuscular dose of 3,000 to 5,000 units is generally recommended for children and adults, with part of the dose infiltrated around the wound if it can be identified. Intravenous immune globulin (IVIG) contains tetanus antitoxin and may be used if TIG is not available.

    Because of the extreme potency of the toxin, tetanus disease does not result in tetanus immunity. Active immunization with tetanus toxoid should begin or continue as soon as the person’s condition has stabilized.

    Plus, there is more (emphasis added)!

    Antibiotic prophylaxis against tetanus is neither practical nor useful in managing wounds; proper immunization plays the more important role. The need for active immunization, with or without passive immunization, depends on the condition of the wound and the patient’s immunization history (see MMWR 2006;55[RR-17] for details). Rarely have cases of tetanus occurred in persons with a documented primary series of tetanus toxoid.

    Persons with wounds that are neither clean nor minor, and who have had 0–2 prior doses of tetanus toxoid or have an uncertain history of prior doses should receive TIG as well as Td or Tdap. This is because early doses of toxoid may not induce immunity, but only prime the immune system. The TIG provides temporary immunity by directly providing antitoxin. This ensures that protective levels of antitoxin are achieved even if an immune response has not yet occurred.

    Sure it is rare, but it is dangerous. It is rare because most of us update our tetanus boosters! There is no herd immunity for tetanus. It can even happen from a bug bite!

  158. #158 Sid Offit
    March 4, 2011

    @D Lurker

    since there is no such thing as immunity to tetanus,

    Thanks but I’ll take my information from the experts at the Immunization Action Coalition

    “Because immunity to diphtheria and tetanus wanes with time”
    http://www.vaccineinformation.org/tetanus/qandavax.asp

    or

    immunity against diphtheria and tetanus and for tetanus prophylaxis for a tetanus prone injury if more than 5 years have elapsed since the last dose of a tetanus toxoid-containing vaccine.
    http://www.immunizationinfo.org/vaccines/tetanus

  159. #159 Chris
    March 4, 2011

    Matthew Cline:

    I think that one of the vegetarian sharks from the movie Finding Nemo was named Bruce.

    Well that beats the medical name for undulant fever!

  160. #160 Sid Offit
    March 4, 2011

    @Chris

    You’ll notice that your post doesn’t answer the question

  161. #161 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    matthew,

    “Out of pure curiosity: if there were a medical test which could determine if there were enough of the etiologic agent (Clostridium tetani) present in a person to eventually cause tetanus symptoms, what do you think the best course of treatment would be?”

    The fact is there is a test but unfortunately that test will only prove doctors are wrong most of the time in dealing with wound and the justification of their use of tetanus shot.

  162. #162 augustine
    March 4, 2011

    @chris

    The same goes for the fool who thinks all engineers are men, and when he finds out that one is a woman comes to the conclusion that it is only possible by her having gone through a sex change.

    What are you talking about? You’re crazy lady. Wait… Wait… I like you. You’re crazy.

    So can a person be born into the wrong body or not? I think you’re afraid to answer this question in front of your peers.

  163. #163 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    Science Mom,

    “The UK’s HPA offers a test that is not reliable and not even used much at all. How does that fit in with the rest of the world? There are effectively, no toxin seroassays used for tetanus diagnoses. As to your second paragraph, you are shifting the goal-posts and you are really in no position to criticise.”

    You’re simply saying, the ignorant doctor does not bear a burden of proof to diagnose tetanus therefore the doctor must create an scenario to make the patient look stupid and threatened to accept the very toxins that they are not suppose to have. Yeah it’s better than nothing. What a complete @#$%.

    “I know you simply don’t get it so for others who may be interested, a serological test for tetanus toxin is rarely, if ever used, secondly, bacterial isolation is extremely difficult and also not reliable so both could be negative and still have a C. tetani bacterial infection. The rest is just your usual ignorance.”

    Until proven otherwise, doctors are in LALA land when it comes to tetanus diagnosis. Of course, it is extremely difficult to test or isolate something which isn’t there in the first place yet it’s very easy to inoculate in a heartbeat.

  164. #164 Augustine
    March 4, 2011

    @Chris

    Sure it is rare, but it is dangerous. It is rare because most of us update our tetanus boosters! There is no herd immunity for tetanus. It can even happen from a bug bite!

    15 cases in 20 years? I guess bugs don’t bite that often. You make it sound as if a bug bites the unvaccinated then they’ll get lockjaw and die. So why are you worried?

  165. #165 Th1Th2
    March 4, 2011

    dedicated lurker,

    “Sid – since there is no such thing as immunity to tetanus, the idea is to kill tetanus before they have released tetanus toxin. The TIG is intended to fight the present toxin.”

    What kind of rubbish idea is that. What is your justification to give a tetanus toxoid/TIG to someone who is void of immune response and then magically expect to prevent tetanus?

  166. #166 T. Bruce McNeely
    March 5, 2011

    Attention! Troll spew spill in Aisles 159 through 163! Avoid if you value your sanity.

  167. #167 novalox
    March 5, 2011

    @160-@165

    Wow, a cluster of anti-scientific thinking.

    Considering the denseness of the said posters, I’m surprised that the concentration of stupid and insipidity hasn’t caused some sort of singularity, sucking everything in.

  168. #168 Heliantus
    March 5, 2011

    Oh rapture. I go on vacation and in the meantime Th1Th2 comes to RI to grace us with his wisdom.
    I was too lazy to register on SBM, and now he is here. Gah. Should resist answering. Cannot.

    ORAC, stop building bridges toward the antivaxs, it just increases the sleeping area for trolls.

    @Th1Th2

    What is your justification to give a tetanus toxoid/TIG to someone who is void of immune response and then magically expect to prevent tetanus?

    Gah? Do you know what TIG are? Immunoglobulins which bind to the tetanus toxoid, if encountered? This is why we give it to someone “void of immune response”.
    As to injecting the “toxoid”, to start with it’s a neutralized toxoid (ideally just the part responsible for binding to the nerves, not the cytotoxic part).

    Let me use your favorite analogy to explain it better:

    a pig with a lipstick is still a pig.

    Except that the pig has been slaughtered and quartered, and we are only receiving bacon and spare ribs, not the whole wild boar.

    What kind of rubbish idea is that.

    I couldn’t have said it better about any of your comments.

    @ Bruce

    Avoid if you value your sanity.

    Too late.

  169. #169 Science Mom
    March 5, 2011

    “The UK’s HPA offers a test that is not reliable and not even used much at all. How does that fit in with the rest of the world? There are effectively, no toxin seroassays used for tetanus diagnoses. As to your second paragraph, you are shifting the goal-posts and you are really in no position to criticise.”

    You’re simply saying, the ignorant doctor does not bear a burden of proof to diagnose tetanus therefore the doctor must create an scenario to make the patient look stupid and threatened to accept the very toxins that they are not suppose to have. Yeah it’s better than nothing. What a complete @#$%.

    I know you are completely whacked, but do try and follow along. You are blaming physicians for the absence and difficulty of perfectly objective, sensitive and specific assays. That is due to the nature of the bacterium and the toxins. The mortality rate of tetanus is so high, the risk of vaccination and administration of TIG far outweighs the risk of ‘wait and see’. Fine for ear infections, not so much for tetanus. And in most cases, I do believe that the patient would rather avert full blown clinical symptoms than to satisfy your warped worldview of medical practices.

    “I know you simply don’t get it so for others who may be interested, a serological test for tetanus toxin is rarely, if ever used, secondly, bacterial isolation is extremely difficult and also not reliable so both could be negative and still have a C. tetani bacterial infection. The rest is just your usual ignorance.”

    Until proven otherwise, doctors are in LALA land when it comes to tetanus diagnosis. Of course, it is extremely difficult to test or isolate something which isn’t there in the first place yet it’s very easy to inoculate in a heartbeat.

    Gah you’re thick. The bacteria can be there, the toxin can be there but still get negative tests. Why is this concept so foreign to you?

  170. #170 augustine
    March 5, 2011

    Nygrabus

    No… but for the chance of watching the 3 of you die from smallpox, I would take that (small) risk.

    Interesting look into the heart and mind of a skeptic under the moniker of “science”. Why don’t we throw in Chris’s oldest (immune deficient) to see how your “science” changes. I suppose this would “shield” us from your murderous intentions. Because you wouldn’t want to kill a vaccine compliant vaccine failure. To make it a little more real world let’s pump in some non vaccine influenza strains and some other common non vaccine viruses.

    But this attitude of apathy would only last so long because you want to “save” the vaccine compliant (not really). In order to do this you have to force or coerce the vaccine objector. Not because you care for them and or only want what’s best for them (you’ve already stated your attitude towards unvaccinated above). You want to perpetuate the agenda even if it means collateral damage to people you don’t care about.

    You’re confident that YOUR vaccine works. You would just as well see the rest of us die. Your leverage is based on a theory to protect the medically fragile yet you have no evidence that it would have any effect on all cause mortality. But you want to put others at risk based entirely on this agenda serving theory.

    No wonder people don’t want your version of science. People can see your heart. Even though your mouth says you care.

    “This is no conspiracy. Trust you government folks. Just get your damn vaccines!”

  171. #171 Dangerous Bacon
    March 5, 2011

    augustine: “You would just as well see the rest of us die. Your leverage is based on a theory to protect the medically fragile yet you have no evidence…But you want to put others at risk based entirely on this agenda serving theory.”

    Wow. What made augie decide to start lambasting the “vaccines cause autism” crowd?

  172. #172 Heliantus
    March 5, 2011

    It’s me, or the local trolls are talking to their mirror? Talk about projection.

  173. #173 Chris
    March 5, 2011

    I’m just glad they decided to comment all at the same time, because it made it easier to scroll past them.

  174. #174 novalox
    March 5, 2011

    @170

    Project much augie?

    Funny how you sound so much like a nutter conspiracy theorist.

  175. #175 augustine
    March 5, 2011

    Are you confident in your vaccines Nova? Or do you have a different argument than Nygrabus?

    The hypothetical experiment he speaks of has much improvement of controls. The real vaccine trials don’t. So you can only go on faith. You can only believe your vaccine will work and you can only believe that it is necessary.

  176. #176 novalox
    March 5, 2011

    @175

    Let’s see how many logical fallacies we have in augie’s statement.

    We have the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, the argumentum ad hominem fallacy and the hasty generalization fallacy.

    Try again, augie.

  177. #177 T. Bruce McNeely
    March 5, 2011

    @176:

    You can also add the false dichotomy fallacy.

  178. #178 augustine
    March 5, 2011

    Novalox

    Try again, augie.

    Are you confident in your vaccines Nova? Or do you have a different argument than Nygrabus?

  179. #179 Th1Th2
    March 5, 2011

    Helliantus,

    Gah? Do you know what TIG are? Immunoglobulins which bind to the tetanus toxoid, if encountered? This is why we give it to someone “void of immune response”.

    —Or you can just inject someone with a sterile saline solution since you have no clue whether the toxin is present or not and then call it a miracle. You see this is how unscientific medicine is, inept doctors are creating scenario to justify their lack of understanding. Reminds me of that James Bond movie where Brosnan received repeated scorpion stings and then was given venom antiserum in between – life-saving indeed! Yeah give the poor patient some toxins which he doesn’t need in the first place so the TIG won’t look stupid waiting for nothing. Seriously, how could TIG function in a person who is void of the complement, macrophages, and other effector immune cells? Also, how do you explain the adverse reactions to TIG (pain, tenderness, angioedema, anaphylaxis etc) in a person who’s void of immune response? OK start the guessing game.

    “As to injecting the “toxoid”, to start with it’s a neutralized toxoid (ideally just the part responsible for binding to the nerves, not the cytotoxic part).”

    –The final product of tetanus toxoid is not a “neutralized toxoid”. It is physico-chemically similar to the native tetanospasmin thus the neutralization of the toxoid like the toxin occurs after the injection/infection.

    “Except that the pig has been slaughtered and quartered, and we are only receiving bacon and spare ribs, not the whole wild boar.”

    Well, it’s a diseased pig since we are talking about infectious diseases where these vaccines are derived from. Will you eat a double-dead meat prepared for you by Gordon Ramsay or the chef of your choice?

  180. #180 dedicated lurker
    March 5, 2011

    Will you eat a double-dead meat prepared for you by Gordon Ramsay or the chef of your choice?

    Can I get it cooked on a barbecue, with barbecue sauce? Mmm.

  181. #181 novalox
    March 5, 2011

    @178

    Oh, you poor, poor child. Can’t put a decent argument together.

    I should pity him, but his/her/its willful ignorance is repelling.

  182. #182 Matthew Cline
    March 5, 2011

    @Science Mom:

    Gah you’re thick.

    S/he has ignored all requests to explain his/her unique definition of “infection”, so I suspect Th1Th2 is being purposefully thick.

  183. #183 Th1Th2
    March 5, 2011

    Science Mom,

    “You are blaming physicians for the absence and difficulty of perfectly objective, sensitive and specific assays. That is due to the nature of the bacterium and the toxins.”

    —Whatever happened to science-based and evidence-based medicine? Until they have proven the existence of the pathogen indeed resides in the wounded patient, then basically they are practicing quackery. They can say whatever they want about tetanus, but if it’s not present, then vaccines are irrelevant. The rest are just based on irrational persuasion accompanied by fear and threats.

    “The mortality rate of tetanus is so high, the risk of vaccination and administration of TIG far outweighs the risk of ‘wait and see’.”

    —See all the risks go to the patient not even a dash of benefit.

    ‘Gah you’re thick. The bacteria can be there, the toxin can be there but still get negative tests. Why is this concept so foreign to you?”

    –Except that tetanus is not a fairytale creature, otherwise you would have to convince me that fairies do exist.

  184. #184 nybgrus
    March 5, 2011

    And this is why I have such apathy in writing decent cogent posts – it truly is a view into the mind of the demented reading these rambling. Seems that Sid dropped off though. Either he went back on his meds or even he can’t stand the level of inanity by auggie and Th1Th2. (yes, I know that is ad hominem – don’t particularly care. Neither of you have an actual argument to attack or counter so…)

    And yes auggie. Happy to do your beloved and oh so ethical vaccinated vs unvaccinated trial with you. Because I am pretty confident about the vaccine and how it would reduce my mortality because I actually know how immunity works. So ramble on like the schizoid drunken hobo on the Venice Beach boardwalk, but please, don’t put words in my mouth. I NEVER said that I would want to see the unvaccinated die and that I would care only for those “compliant” to the “great vaccine conspiracy.” Please! I was much more simple and straightforward than that. It was the three of you ignorant, fear mongering, dangerous, anti-social idiots I wanted to see die. And not by some violent means or directly at my hand. No, as I said, specifically in the context of the vaccine trial your ilk always calls for. That way, when I am perfectly healthy and you are staring at all those nasty pox blisters all over you perhaps then the benefit of a vaccine can be evident to you.

    And Th1… you so continually show your ignorance that I just can’t wrap my head around how dense you are. Of course, the reality is that anti-vaccine is your religion and Wakefraud is your messiah so anything that goes against your dogma is simply outright ignored. But hey, I’ve got a spare second.

    “Seriously, how could TIG function in a person who is void of the complement, macrophages, and other effector immune cells? ”

    Because, you dolt, the IG in TIG stands for “immune globulin” which is the PRODUCT of a normal functioning immune system’s response to the “T” (which stands for Tetanus, you know). So in other words, your argument is entirely equivalent to saying:

    “Seriously, how can a perfectly cooked filet mignon function to feed a person who doesn’t have a cow, slaughterhouse, or kitchen?”

    Because the steak is already cooked and all he has to do is eat! Lets see if a brief overview can help at all….

    Tetanus infection–>toxoid formation–> death
    Tetanus vaccine–>immune stimulation–>antibody to toxoid produce by B cells –> death avoided
    Tetanus infection–>pre-formed antibody to toxoid produced by monoclonal B cells–> toxoid formation –> antibodies neutralize toxoid –> death avoided

    There… that simple. Have fun.

  185. #185 Th1Th2
    March 5, 2011

    Matthew,

    Please check #70 on March 4, 2011 2:38 AM. I don’t wanna hear that tetanus is not an infection.

  186. #186 Matthew Cline
    March 5, 2011

    I know I shouldn’t feed the troll, but:

    Until they have proven the existence of the pathogen indeed resides in the wounded patient, then basically they are practicing quackery.

    So, lets says someone is bitten by a possibly rabid bat, which escapes before it can be captured, so no one knows if it actually was rabid. The doctors don’t know if “the pathogen indeed resides in the wounded patient”, so in order to avoid practicing quackery, no post-exposure rabies vaccine is given to the bite victim. If the bite victim does wind up getting rabies, he’ll die, but hey, at least quackery was avoided, and that’s the important thing.

  187. #187 Matthew Cline
    March 5, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    Matthew,

    Please check #70 on March 4, 2011 2:38 AM. I don’t wanna hear that tetanus is not an infection.

    So, since the tetanus toxin can enter one nerve cell, leave the first nerve cell, and from there enter a second nerve cell, it’s infective? Is that your definition of infection, any molecule which can enter a cell and then come back out again?

  188. #188 Th1Th2
    March 5, 2011

    dedicated lurker,

    “Can I get it cooked on a barbecue, with barbecue sauce? Mmm.”

    With this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-dead_meat
    Be my guess.

  189. #189 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    March 5, 2011

    “Be my guess.”

    (my italics)

    Th1Th2… is that REALLY the word you want to use?

  190. #190 Th1Th2
    March 5, 2011

    nybgrus,

    “Because, you dolt, the IG in TIG stands for “immune globulin” which is the PRODUCT of a normal functioning immune system’s response to the “T” (which stands for Tetanus, you know).”

    You really don’t follow the thread pretty well that’s why you’re a bit confused. Remember, you’re giving the toxoid/TIG to someone who is void of immune response. Now let’s go to your flowchart, shall we?

    You said:
    Tetanus infection–>toxoid formation–> death
    Tetanus vaccine–>immune stimulation–>antibody to toxoid produce by B cells –> death avoided
    Tetanus infection–>pre-formed antibody to toxoid produced by monoclonal B cells–> toxoid formation –> antibodies neutralize toxoid –> death avoided
    —-
    Since we are giving it to someone with no effector immune response, now take the B cells and the antibodies (pre-injection) out of the equation, your vaccine and TiG will look silly and so is your response.

  191. #191 Th1Th2
    March 5, 2011

    No, it’s supposed to be “Be my guest” Typo. Thanks anyway.

  192. #192 Th1Th2
    March 5, 2011

    matthew,

    “possibly rabid bat”

    —Possibly = “I don’t know” which then leads to opinion, in medicine, they call it as diagnosis.

  193. #193 Th1Th2
    March 5, 2011

    matthew,

    “So, since the tetanus toxin can enter one nerve cell, leave the first nerve cell, and from there enter a second nerve cell, it’s infective? Is that your definition of infection, any molecule which can enter a cell and then come back out again?”

    –Any molecule? How come you easily forget that it’s a tetanospasmin “molecule” that caused the subject to have tetanus. Infective? What do you think tetanus is? The subject would have never gotten the tetanus if they weren’t infected.

  194. #194 Matthew Cline
    March 5, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    So then, in order to avoid quackery, a doctor should only give the post-exposure rabies vaccine if the bat can be caught and tests positive for rabies, and never give it if the bat escapes?

  195. #195 Matthew Cline
    March 5, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    I thought you were saying that tetanospasmin in and of itself, even in the absence of Clostridium tetani, was infectious (or an infection, or something) because it can be transmitted from one nerve cell to another. If that’s not what you meant, I have no idea what you meant by your instruction to “Please check #70″.

  196. #196 nybgrus
    March 5, 2011

    ahhh, thing. yet again. it is like watching a creationist plea that the earth is 6000 years old and look right over the radiodating data and straight at the bible just past it.

    “Since we are giving it to someone with no effector immune response, now take the B cells and the antibodies (pre-injection) out of the equation, your vaccine and TiG will look silly and so is your response.”

    I was addressing the TIG. If you have no immune system at all, none, nada, zip, zilch, boy-in-the-bubble SCID, then the TIG will STILL protect you from the effects of tetanus. How you ask? Well, I’ll answer YET AGAIN. Pop quiz – what’s the IG stand for? Right! Immune Globulin. It acts DIRECTLY on the tetanus toxoid. No need for an immune system – it does it all by itself! For you, lets just call that magic since you can’t seem to grasp the concept and as Arthur C Clarke said “Any technology sufficiently advanced will seem like magic.”

    However, if you have no immune system, then you can’t rid the body of the C. tetani infection itself, and thus the TIG will ONLY serve to protect you from symptoms so long as you have an infusion of it. The vaccine is given contemporaneously so that the continuous infusion is not necessary and your own immune response can take over where the TIG left off. But if you don’t have an immune system that wont work and yeah, you’re pretty much toast if you get a C. tetani infection. Of course, if you really have no immune system your problem will be much bigger than that.

    Now, go ahead and continue to not understand Thing. Have you ever heard of Nephilimfree? You are the blogtroll version of him in regards to vaccines. Quite amazing really.

  197. #197 Th1Th2
    March 5, 2011

    “I thought you were saying that tetanospasmin in and of itself, even in the absence of Clostridium tetani, was infectious (or an infection, or something) because it can be transmitted from one nerve cell to another.”

    How can you transmit and infect a host with tetanospamin in the absence of C. tetani? Simple. Inoculation of the toxin itself. How can you spread the toxins to others? Easy. Inoculate all of them. Infectious although not contagious, check #70. If you don’t wanna be infected, don’t take it. No tetanospamin, no tetanus.

    In the vaccine world, the use of inactivated and non-live vaccines follows the same approach. Everyone who received the inoculation had been directly infected. The flu shot can give you the flu. That’s what primary exposure is all about.

  198. #198 Th1Th2
    March 5, 2011

    Matthew,

    “So then, in order to avoid quackery, a doctor should only give the post-exposure rabies vaccine if the bat can be caught and tests positive for rabies, and never give it if the bat escapes?”

    Treat the the patient, not the bat. So how do you diagnose rabies in humans?

  199. #199 nybgrus
    March 5, 2011

    Thingy!

    “No tetanospamin, no tetanus.”

    What if were walking down a dirt path, hiking lets say, since we all know that children would only walk on pavement, and you accidentally stepped on a rusty nail and it went into your foot. Lets also say that nail had C. tetani on it. Would you then be likely to get infected? Now lets say that Jean-Luc Picard himself came down and scanned your foot and said, “Ensign. You have a large colony of C. tetani growing in that wound.” What would YOU do in order to treat yourself? (Besides using a star trek hypospray and their advanced technology – limit yourself to what we have on earth since Jean-Luc found out who you are and promptly left after definitively showing you you have the bacteria in your foot).

  200. #200 Matthew Cline
    March 5, 2011

    @Th1Th2:

    Infectious although not contagious, check #70.

    Everyone who received the inoculation had been directly infected.

    If you want to be able to actually communicate with anyone about infections, you’re going to have to define exactly what you mean by infection/infective/infectious. The abstract you quote in comment #70 isn’t enough.

    So how do you diagnose rabies in humans?

    I’m no doctor, but so far as I know, rabies in humans can only be diagnosed by the onset of symptoms, and once symptoms show up it’s too late to treat.

  201. #201 T. Bruce McNeely
    March 5, 2011

    Treat the the patient, not the bat. So how do you diagnose rabies in humans?

    For someone who is a complete ignoramus, you sure have a lot to say.

  202. #202 LW
    March 5, 2011

    I was wondering what Th1Th2 would say if the hypothetical were that you were bitten by the bat, you captured the bat on the spot, and it was tested and found to be infected with rabies. This would appear to be the answer: “Treat the the patient, not the bat. So how do you diagnose rabies in humans?” Th1Th2 would wait until you were symptomatic — even if the bat were known to be infected — at which point, if treated with the most modern protocol and all the resources of modern medicine, you might have some small chance of survival.

  203. #203 Th1Th2
    March 5, 2011

    nybgrus,

    “Pop quiz – what’s the IG stand for? Right! Immune Globulin. It acts DIRECTLY on the tetanus toxoid. No need for an immune system – it does it all by itself! ”

    —Of course, TIG has to do something or else it will look stupid not doing anything. Like giving the patient a small amount of venom (toxoid) and then the venom antiserum (TIG) afterwards. Which cult do you belong?

    Seriously, are you sure immune globulins can act alone and eliminate the toxins (tooids) without the need of the immune system?

    “However, if you have no immune system, then you can’t rid the body of the C. tetani infection itself, and thus the TIG will ONLY serve to protect you from symptoms so long as you have an infusion of it. ”

    —This is funny. It seems to me that the TIG is having a difficult time doing everything by itself…alone. How can TIG, yes! you alone, eliminate the symptoms of someone who is void of immune response?

    “The vaccine is given contemporaneously so that the continuous infusion is not necessary and your own immune response can take over where the TIG left off.”

    –Haha. Talk about adding insult to injury.

  204. #204 Chris
    March 5, 2011

    nybgrus, I think you have forgotten something you said in the infamous SBM blog:

    So the question, fellow scientific thinkers, is how does one deal with someone the likes of Sid and Th1Th2? I suggest the same way you deal with the Black Knight: You walk around his stump of a torso and continue on while he shouts how he has won the day.

    By the way, that entire comment was a thing of beauty. And really folks, please ignore the troll.

  205. #205 nybgrus
    March 5, 2011

    You are correct Chris. I have been caught with my hand in the cookie jar, so to speak. Like the guilty pleasure of watching “Flava of Love” with an entire pint of ice cream when you should be doing something productive instead. Like the child who burns ants with a magnifying glass or pokes at a roley-poley in a jar. Like a rubbernecker on the 405 in rush hour.

    I will cease and desist. Besides, I have to write up a patient history and then write up my presentation on board prep for tomorrow.

  206. #206 Th1Th2
    March 5, 2011

    matthew,

    “If you want to be able to actually communicate with anyone about infections, you’re going to have to define exactly what you mean by infection/infective/infectious. The abstract you quote in comment #70 isn’t enough.”

    Why not? Based on #87, what could possibly cause the tetanus in #70? A sugar molecule? Infection/infective/infectious all refer to and associated with infectious diseases, pathogens, pathogenic products including altered hosts cells.

  207. #207 Chris
    March 5, 2011

    nybgrus, :-)

  208. #208 julia
    March 6, 2011

    Th1 Th2 had this kind of confusion about the word infection months ago. Not to diagnose over the internet, but this may be something like OCD where the person washes their hands over and over until the hands are raw and red. Often even when the person knows it is not logical or that they have OCD they will still do these actions and/or have the thot they are dirty etc. The nerve pathways in this case are like a well worn wagon path where it is difficult to escape. I myself, had obsessions as part of my autism but even then, after much convincing, I would ADMIT I was WRONG etc. I am not so sure Th1 Th2 could really be a “troll” in the classic sense, merely a person with strong obsessions. However, that is just a guess and I COULD BE WRONG.lol

  209. #209 augustine
    March 6, 2011

    Nybus

    You are correct Chris. I have been caught with my hand in the cookie jar, so to speak. Like the guilty pleasure of watching “Flava of Love” with an entire pint of ice cream when you should be doing something productive instead.

    You’re caught with your hand in the cookie jar because you are logically and scientifically sloppy.

    my apologies to the science crowd. In my bombastic zeal with the thing and the other trolls I started spouting off at the mouth without giving my usual thought to the posts.

    Blaming it on your posting targets still means you’re sloppy. You should be apologizing to them and not your fans whom you are trying to appease.

    Remember what Orac says. You’re at an unfair disadvantage. You have to stay on your toes. You lost this one. Just like Chris screwed up. ;)

  210. #210 dt
    March 6, 2011

    I don’t wish to become too personal, but I must point out that Th1 troll has a magnificent track record of either deliberate or unintended inability to reason when faced with unequivocal evidence.

    This inability is hopefully restricted to concepts about vaccination (Th1 would have a quite limited life expectancy otherwise, trying to deal with the realities of life. That is assuming it is a living entity and not some trollbot).

    Attempting to reason with the troll is quite hopeless, but is unfortunately very tempting at times. It’s like watching that Youtube clip of the drunk guy trying to put on his shoe.

    You cannot help being astonished by the display of mind-blowing incompetence, and want to enjoy the moment, but you also want to lend a helping hand at the same time just to help put the guy out of his misery.

  211. #211 Heliantus
    March 6, 2011

    @ the clueless thing, one last time, I promise guys.

    “Seriously, how could TIG function in a person who is void of the complement, macrophages, and other effector immune cells? ”

    Because the antibodies are directed against a protein, the tetanus toxin, you twit, and they don’t need the complement or whatever else to simply catch it in their little hands and prevent it from binding to the nerves.
    If you answer that antibodies are not effective at binding to their target, I will have some bad news for my officemate who is a specialist of ELISA and other Western blots.

    “The final product of tetanus toxoid is not a “neutralized toxoid”. It is physico-chemically similar to the native tetanospasmin”

    No, it’s not. It’s not biologically active the way the wild toxin is. The protein in the vaccine is not fully similar to the active toxin, you donkey, it’s what we keep telling you in all tones for the past 3 years. Which part of “we only pick one part of the pig, not the whole pig” don’t you understand?

    It’s not a diseased pig we are talking about, you dolt. Don’t you at least are consistent with your analogies?
    Bacon (with or without lipstick) is to a wild boar what the molecules introduced into a vaccine are to the wild germ (or the active toxin). Still close enough to be recognized as pig, but not too close for comfort. And hopefully not able anymore to jump you and disembowel you.

    How could someone know so much about something so simply elegant as the immune system and be so wrong?

    OK, I’m losing my time with you. Get lost.

  212. #212 Denice Walter
    March 6, 2011

    The pointlessness ( which may, unfortunately, bear disease-promoting fruit) continues**:

    AoA ( 3/5/11) calls upon the faithful to rise up and create a groundswell of political activity in support of a conscientious exemption to vaccination in NJ while simultaneously urging defeat of a measure that would re-instate the full power of the Public Health Council (which by bypassing the legislature, could mandate new vaccines and weaken or eliminate the currently lax religious exemption).This would dis-empower “the People”, I guess.

    Unsurprisingly, the article links to LKH’s site (NJCVC), which urges the following actions: attending a meeting @ 10am, Monday 3/7/11, in Trenton as well as barraging the legislature and governor with calls and e-mails. Recent carpet-bombing by anti-vaxxers has yielded results in NJ.

    ** and I continue, despite having a miserable headache, to bring you the bad news. Thank you very much, Tanqueray Dry London Gin, supposed-Elixir of Life ( or something like it) for folks like me. So please forgive any proofreading/ word choice errors.

  213. #213 novalox
    March 6, 2011

    @209

    Poor little troll, projecting his own deficiencies and idiocy onto others and again using the argumentum ad projectum fallacy.

  214. #214 Sid Offit
    March 6, 2011

    @ nybgrus

    Sid dropped off though.

    Because no one could justify using the tetanus vaccine in conjunction with TIG in an unvaccinated person as a response to a tetanus prone wound.

  215. #215 Lawrence
    March 6, 2011

    Only in your own mind Sid, only in your own mind. It actually is pretty funny watching these trolls flail about declaring victory – much like a petty dictator declaring victory while his forces crumble at every corner.

    When engaging in an intellectual debate, don’t argue with an unarmed opponent.

  216. #216 Matthew Cline
    March 6, 2011

    More Th1Th2 blasts from the past:

    ALL vaccines are adjuvanted in one way or another.

    Even thimerosal is considered an adjuvant. That is any substance that is added to preserve, stabilize, and enhance the immunogenicity of the vaccine is considered an adjuvant.

    You are an absolute quack. Where did you learn that superstitious belief that humans make formaldehyde. First, humans DO NOT synthesize formaldehyde.

    Again, you have not proven that formaldehyde is produced intrinsically by cells and NOT a product of metabolism.

  217. #217 nybgrus
    March 6, 2011

    @209/214: Deftly sidesteps the flopping torso of the black knight.

  218. #218 dedicated lurker
    March 6, 2011

    nybgrus – I’m expecting Th to say next that your mother was a hamster and your father smells of elderberries.

    Matthew – I think a cell that couldn’t metabolize would die pretty fast. But I’m not naive.

  219. #219 Dangerous Bacon
    March 7, 2011

    There’s a pretty good article on abcnews.com about how physicians are handling vaccine refusal by parents.

    “According to a 2001 American Academy of Pediatrics survey, 23 percent of physicians reported that they “always” or “sometimes” tell parents they can no longer be the child’s pediatrician if they won’t get the proper shots.

    The Academy doesn’t have more recent survey data, but physicians say that they see plenty of their colleagues joining the ranks.

    (A quoted pediatrician) will sometimes work with parents to adjust the vaccination schedule — “I’m willing to separate some vaccines by two weeks, whatever I can do to increase vaccination rates is good” — but if an interviewer comes along wanting to cross all vaccines off the list, Lieber will show them the door.

    Few physicians find that this practice challenges their ethics, especially in light of recent outbreaks such as pertussis in California and in certain communities within Brooklyn. Indeed, the American Academy of Pediatrics has in the past deemed it ethical to dismiss patients who refuse to get their children vaccinated, and offers a clinical guideline as well as an online toolkit on how to handle the pertinent issues.”

    The article discusses the threat to young children coming in to the pediatrician’s office from older patients whose parents have refused vaccination.

    No need to worry though – once a pediatrician decides that education has failed and the parents need to find a new doc, there’s probably a Brave Maverick Pediatrician available somewhere to pick up the slack and put all his patients (and the rest of the community) at risk.

  220. #220 JohnV
    March 7, 2011

    “there’s probably a Brave Maverick Pediatrician available somewhere to pick up the slack and put all his patients (and the rest of the community) at risk.”

    Paging Dr. Gordon
    :o

  221. #221 Jen
    March 7, 2011

    Who cares about Pediatricians anyways? Most people in Canada just go to a regular family physician for their children’s medical check-ups. And they don’t get all “in your face” about the shots ( which are usually given at the public health nurse clinics). We aren’t experiencing any massive outbreaks of anything. I am so happy we aren’t hep b’ ing our babies. ( in light of Stoneybrook hospital study).

  222. #222 augustinea
    March 7, 2011

    Vaccines kill again!

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110307/ts_nm/us_japan_vaccine

    Bad timing when an AP article(ie canned news article) tried to conspicously claim vaccine victory over ear infections when clearly other factors were involved with the outcome.

    http://www.ajc.com/health/trend-reversal-big-drop-860699.html

    The vaccine, first licensed in 2000, would not account for the drop in cases in the 1990s, but probably has contributed to the decline since, several experts said.

    Disease incidence/and or severity already dropping. Vaccine comes in to save the day. Vaccine takes credit. Other factors washed away by persistent PR campaign.

    Where have we heard this before?

    What will follow, as predicted, will be more tobacco executive integrity from vaccine apologists. “temporal”, “coincidence”, “you can’t prove it”, “the benefit still outweighs the risks”.

    The public can only take so much or your hubris. You’re only hurting science when you take this stance.

    Three of the four children died a day after being immunized.

  223. #223 MI Dawn
    March 7, 2011

    @little augie: yeah, and the companies are cooperating with the Japanese authorities to see why the children died. At this time, the deaths have NOT been tied to the vaccines according to the official statements from Japanese officials. And, appropriately, the use of those specific vaccines (not all vaccines) have been suspended while the investigation is going on. However, please remember that children can die of other causes and at this time we don’t know what caused the deaths of those 4 children, nor do we know the time period between vaccine and death for the 4th child.

    Now, please try reading articles you link to, instead of just the headlines, then you won’t be shown to be rumormungering.

  224. #224 augustine
    March 7, 2011

    At this time, the deaths have NOT been tied to the vaccines according to the official statements from Japanese officials.

    Dawn, baby, they never are. Just another case of SIDS.

  225. #225 nybgrus
    March 7, 2011

    when you employ creationist rhetoric tactics you know you’ve hit bottom barrel. Auggie is just the head of the black knight, crawling around using his tongue and screaming how he’s won.

  226. #226 augustine
    March 7, 2011

    when you employ creationist rhetoric tactics you know you’ve hit bottom barrel. Auggie is just the head of the black knight, crawling around using his tongue and screaming how he’s won.

    That’s a great example of an ad hominem attack. What a great little critical thinker you are. You mess up a lot. I wonder what else you’re wrong about.

    You’re sloppy. Your fellow bloggers know it. You know it. It’s sceptic code to let it slide as long the ends justifies the means.

  227. #227 Prometheus
    March 7, 2011

    Th1Th2 (3142) asks:

    “The presence of tetanus toxin in the blood in the absence of C. tetani (isolation of the bacilli – negative), do you consider that as an infection?”

    Tetanus toxin (tetanospasmin) in the blood could be the result of an infection by C. tetani or it could have been injected (for reasons unspecified). However, the inability to “isolate” C. Tetani (in the blood? not specified) doesn’t rule out an infection by that organism. Most C. tetani infections are in the tissues and don’t manifest as a septiciaemia (bacteria in the blood). The toxin, however, does appear in the blood, even if tests may not be sufficiently sensitive to detect it.

    Frankly, I’m not following what Th1Th2 is getting at with this. From reading the rest of the Th1Th2 comments, this is probably a good thing.

    If Th1Th2 was truly interested in discussing his/her hypothesis of “infection”, a more effective strategy would be to concisely and coherently explain it. Instead, Th1Th2 seems to be trying to make us all guess what he/she is thinking, which gives him/her inummerable opportunities to “LOL” at our collective stupidity for not being able to read his/her (dysfunctional) mind.

    Prometheus

  228. #228 nybgrus
    March 7, 2011

    auggie… when you can’t produce a cogent thought, let alone an argument there is nothing left to attack but the hominem

  229. #229 Th1th2
    March 7, 2011

    Heliantus,

    “Because the antibodies are directed against a protein, the tetanus toxin, you twit, and they don’t need the complement or whatever else to simply catch it in their little hands and prevent it from binding to the nerves.”

    —-Mice genetically deficient in C3, C4 or the C3b and the C3d complement receptors have diminished antibody responses to protein antigens.

    “No, it’s not. It’s not biologically active the way the wild toxin is. The protein in the vaccine is not fully similar to the active toxin, you donkey, it’s what we keep telling you in all tones for the past 3 years. Which part of “we only pick one part of the pig, not the whole pig” don’t you understand?”

    —That one is why tetanus toxoid has limited effectiveness.
    ” We conclude that the presence of the ganglioside binding site within HC may be essential for induction of a fully protective anti-tetanus response comparable to that induced by tetanus toxoid by subcutaneous injection. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1539629/

    “Bacon (with or without lipstick) is to a wild boar what the molecules introduced into a vaccine are to the wild germ (or the active toxin).”

    Can you be more so dishonest besides putting words into my mouth? What I said was ‘A pig with a lipstick is still a pig.’ What do you call a bacon derived from pigs used in vaccine production? A bacon. Bon appetit amigo!

  230. #230 lilady
    March 7, 2011

    “…I will have some bad news for my office mate who is a specialist of ELISA and other Western Blot.”

    The ELISA IGG test is used to test for tetanus vaccine-induced immunity; it is NOT (an) “other Western Blot.”

    Is there a possibility that any of the trolls on this site have read the CDC Pink Book, which is the compilation of all the reliable science-based knowledge of vaccine-preventable diseases?

  231. #231 nybgrus
    March 7, 2011

    “Because the antibodies are directed against a protein, the tetanus toxin, you twit, and they don’t need the complement or whatever else to simply catch it in their little hands and prevent it from binding to the nerves.”

    —-Mice genetically deficient in C3, C4 or the C3b and the C3d complement receptors have diminished antibody responses to protein antigens.

    ACK! The stupid! WOW. TIG is NOT A F*****G ANTIGEN! It is an ANTIBODY. You do not need an ANTIBODY RESPONSE from a PROTEIN ANTIGEN when you are administering an ANTIBODY not A F*****G PROTEIN ANTIGEN!!!!

  232. #232 Matthew Cline
    March 7, 2011

    @Prometheus:

    Frankly, I’m not following what Th1Th2 is getting at with this.

    I think Th1Th2 is implying that toxins produced by infectious agents are themselves infect infectious.

  233. #233 Th1Th2
    March 7, 2011

    nybgrus,

    “ACK! The stupid! WOW. TIG is NOT A F*****G ANTIGEN! It is an ANTIBODY. You do not need an ANTIBODY RESPONSE from a PROTEIN ANTIGEN when you are administering an ANTIBODY not A F*****G PROTEIN ANTIGEN!!!!”

    Good thing you’re not a doctor (or may be you are, I don’t know) because you would have killed a person with that dangerous idea not to mention how to properly administer TIG and not as a lethal IV ‘infusion’. You said this #196 on March 5, 2011 8:05 PM:

    “However, if you have no immune system, then you can’t rid the body of the C. tetani infection itself, and thus the TIG will ONLY serve to protect you from symptoms so long as you have an infusion of it. The vaccine is given contemporaneously so that the continuous infusion is not necessary and your own immune response can take over where the TIG left off.”

    May be the cause of death has nothing to do with antibody response. Listen up kids.

  234. #234 nybgrus
    March 7, 2011

    I’m flummoxed. Thing’s rhetoric, logic, intellect, and knowledge is so far beyond mine that I am but a dull caveman in comparison. I wish I possessed the ability to seamlessly use any word of the English language interchangeably with no regard for established “definitions” – truly Thing, you are the Shakespeare of immunology.

    Thingy, O’ Thingy. Wherefore art thou Thingy? For a anti-vaccinationist by any other name could not possibly smell as rank.

  235. #235 lilady
    March 7, 2011

    Thingy is out cruising for an all night bookstore, for a medical dictionary. And, thingy is trying to find a lab reference book to find out what diseases a Western Blot test is used for.

  236. #236 MI Dawn
    March 8, 2011

    @little augie:

    Dawn, baby, they never are.

    Forget the sweet talk, augie. I don’t pick up babies in a bar. I prefer adult men, thank you.

    @lilady: Western Blot? Ah, one of my favorites. Used to see a lot of them, back in the maternal-child days.

    @nybgrus: You bad, bad person, you. You’ve gone and upset poor Th1, who now has to research the various ways that TIG can be given. Oh, wait. Th1 seems to think it can only be given via 1 route. I hope you are ashamed of yourself, making TH1 work like that. /sarcasm

  237. #237 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    Dawn

    I don’t pick up babies in a bar. I prefer adult men, thank you.

    You sound like one of those “aggressive” females. Rgghhheow!

    BTW, 222 dead one day after Prevnar in the U.S. alone.

    http://www.vaccinationnews.com/sites/default/files/VAERS_Prevnar_deaths_within_1_day_1.pdf

  238. #238 Lawrence
    March 8, 2011

    VAERS is your proof? A database that doesn’t have a follow-up confirmation of accuracy? The same database where someone entered “Turned into the Incredible Hulk” as a adverse reaction to a vaccine & it was accepted?

  239. #239 Beamup
    March 8, 2011

    In particular, let’s observe that someone who got the vaccine and was hit by a drunk driver on the way home from the appointment would be included.

    It’s quite a meaningless number without an actual showing that the vaccine caused the deaths…

  240. #240 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    Yeah you’re right. That’s probably what happened to those 4 poor Japanese children. 2 received the vaccine, turned into the incredible hulk and then died by their own strength. The other 2 received the vaccine and were probably subsequently hit by drunk drivers.

    It would never be the vaccine. There can never be an actual vaccine death. Just hypothetical vaccine deaths.

    Have “science”bloggers ever seen a vaccine induced death that couldn’t be explained away or rationalized as necessary?

  241. #241 Lawrence
    March 8, 2011

    How about using real evidence for once? VAERS has been proven to be unreliable, for the very reasons stated.

    Given your demands for absolute certainty – why would you use, as evidence, a database that, by its very nature, is inaccurate?

  242. #242 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    Given your demands for absolute certainty

    Science can not give you certainty. And medicine is not even a science.

  243. #243 Lawrence
    March 8, 2011

    I know I’ll regret that – but what does give you certainty?

  244. #244 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    It’s quite a meaningless number without an actual showing that the vaccine caused the deaths…

    The decrease in infectious deaths is quite meaningless without an actual showing that the vaccine caused the decrease deaths.

    That’s a little tuff to do considering all of the confounders.

  245. #245 Beamup
    March 8, 2011

    You’re claiming that any death in temporal proximity to a vaccination must be attributed to the vaccine. Which is ludicrous. Unless you present some actual evidence that said deaths were vaccine-related, there isn’t anything to explain or rationalize in the first place.

  246. #246 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    You’re claiming that any death in temporal proximity to a vaccination must be attributed to the vaccine.

    No I’m not. But It must not be dismissed.

    In this case you say the vaccine is innocent until proven guilty. I say it’s guilty until proven innocent. That’s not a difference in science. It’s a difference in perspective.

    I’ve heard pharmacists say if a patient starts a new medication and develops new signs or symptoms then it’s the medication until proven otherwise.

  247. #247 Beamup
    March 8, 2011

    OK then, I declare that the deaths were clearly due to peanut butter. It’s guilty until proven innocent.

  248. #248 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    Something is wrong with the peanut butter.

    If 4 children died immediately after eating the same brand of peanut butter then you have legitimate reason for concern and should report that to PBAERS.

    Even if the Peanut Butter Ideologists say it’s coincidental in the name of nutrition.

    Or you could create doubt and hold off more criticism for decades by starting a campaign looking into the genetic causes.

  249. #249 Pablo
    March 8, 2011

    If 4 children died immediately after eating the same brand of peanut butter then you have legitimate reason for concern and should report that to PBAERS.

    There isn’t a PBAERS to report to, so that causes a problem.

    How do you know that 4 children haven’t died immediately after eating the same brand of peanut butter?

  250. #250 dedicated lurker
    March 8, 2011

    So auggie says you can’t know the vaccine was involved in reducing disease rates, but knows anyone who dies after a vaccine must have died because of the vaccine until proven otherwise.

    That’s a hell of a cognitive dissonance there.

  251. #251 Todd W.
    March 8, 2011

    Haven’t really been following the comments too closely, but noticed that the deaths in Japan came up. Wrote about that here. They were most likely coincidental, which is believable, considering millions upon millions of doses have been administered worldwide.

    I always find it interesting when anti-vaxers cry foul when there is even a single death following a vaccine, giving a rate of 1 per several million, but when the death rate from a disease it on the order of 1 per 1,000, they’re like, “Meh.”

  252. #252 lilady
    March 8, 2011

    Worldwide news agencies are now reporting that medical investigators in Japan have determined that the four infant deaths are not linked to immunizations.

    If any posters here have any other “theories”, “suggestions” or “differences in perspective”, I suggest you notify the Japanese government.

  253. #253 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    Lurker

    So auggie says you can’t know the vaccine was involved in reducing disease rates

    I didn’t say it wasn’t involved.

  254. #254 Beamup
    March 8, 2011

    If 4 children died immediately after eating the same brand of peanut butter then you have legitimate reason for concern

    Who said anything about immediately? You’ve rather changed the requirement from the original 24 hours.

    And if you seriously believe that 4 deaths within 24 hours of eating peanut butter, in who knows what circumstances, without more evidence linking them, constitutes a legitimate reason for concern then I don’t see how you go through life. Because I guarantee you that most things you do routinely have that sort of link.

    If the 4 deaths were due to food poisoning (I think salmonella can live in peanut butter?), and there were others sickened but not killed from the same brand, and there’s no other commonality that can be found between what they ate, THEN you have cause for concern.

  255. #255 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    scienceblog poster

    Worldwide news agencies are now reporting that medical investigators in Japan have determined that the four infant deaths are not linked to immunizations.

    @222. Of course. It’s a predictable response. No vaccine has. None ever will be.

    Btw, what did the autopsy reveal?

  256. #256 lilady
    March 8, 2011

    @ augie Why don’t you ask the Japanese Ministry of Health about the cause of death, when you send them your “differences of perspective.” There is an email contact address at the Japanese Ministry of Health, for you to advance your theories.

  257. #257 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    scienblog poster

    @ augie Why don’t you ask the Japanese Ministry of Health about the cause of death, when you send them your “differences of perspective.”

    I thought, being the county nurse and all, that you had some type of pull and had seen the autopsy reports.

  258. #258 lilady
    March 8, 2011

    I provided the contact information to you because you expressed interest in the causes of deaths, I didn’t…I’ll wait for any updates on the situation from my usual “source”…the MMWR.

    When you contact the Japanese Ministry of Health about your “differences of perspective”, share the email with us and let us know what their response is. We are always interested in scientific research results.

  259. #259 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities. -Ayn Rand

  260. #260 Lawrence
    March 8, 2011

    LOL – I knew it! Augie had to be an Objectivist – please, give us some more quotes from Atlas Shrugged or the Fountainhead.

    Explains a lot – google Nicholas Provenzo & Trig Palin to see the worst of the worst. Scary thing is, I knew this guy in college (and he was a wacko then too).

  261. #261 Beamup
    March 8, 2011

    It’s also completely off-topic and irrelevant…

  262. #262 augustine
    March 8, 2011

    I provided the contact information to you because you expressed interest in the causes of deaths, I didn’t

    So being the county nurse doesn’t give you that type of privilege?

    We are always interested in scientific research results.

    So what was that specific scientific protocol they used in Japan to absolutely rule out the possibility of the vaccine killing the children?

    I can’t be too different than the one that the county nurses use.

    Maybe you should write to them and tell them that they are in effect murdering their citizens by with holding a valuable life saving vaccine. There is no scientific reason for suspending the vaccine right?

  263. #263 T. Bruce McNeely
    March 8, 2011

    Trying to resist feeding the troll but failing…

    Augie, you go ahead and contact the Japanese Ministry of Health. After all, you know it all and you never make a mistake. You did tell us that if you were in error, you would immediately correct it, didn’t you? Since I have never seen you acknowledge an error, you must never make an error. That’s, like, so awesome! You’re like some kind of god.

    With that kind of rep, you should have a lot more pull than the rest of us poor slobs who are blundering about in the captivity of science. I’m sure that the Japanese Government is dying to hear from you. Who could refuse a request from a god? Do us a favor and get on with it, okay?

  264. #264 dedicated lurker
    March 8, 2011

    I didn’t say it wasn’t involved.

    Well, it’s a good thing that I said “So auggie says you can’t know the vaccine was involved in reducing disease rates” and not “auggie says the vaccine wasn’t involved in reducing disease rates” then.

  265. #265 Matthew Cline
    March 8, 2011

    @augustine:

    Of course. It’s a predictable response. No vaccine has. None ever will be.

    Because all coroners are all so pro-vax that they refuse to recognize a vaccine death when they see one?

  266. #266 JohnV
    March 8, 2011

    Seeing it take auggie this long to quote that pile of shit rand makes me wonder if he just turned 14 and finally started reading a copy of it.

  267. #267 nybgrus
    March 9, 2011

    Thank the FSM that this thread has finally died!

  268. #268 Th1Th2
    March 9, 2011

    White flag has been raised by these vaccine apologists. It’s a predictable move nonetheless.

  269. #269 nybgrus
    March 9, 2011

    The torso of the Black Knight is STILL babbling?? LOL

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