Respectful Insolence

Here’s something for you all to check out. Trine Tsouderos, the journalist from The Chicago Tribune who’s distinguished herself as being one of the few reporters who “gets it” when it comes to quackery and the anti-vaccine movement (just put her name in the search box of this blog for some examples) will be hosting a web chat about vaccines featuring none other than Dr. Paul Offit, one of the gutsiest (if not the gutsiest) defender of vaccine science out there. The chat will occur here at noon CDT today. Questions can be submitted in advance to Tsouderos at ttsouderos@tribune.com.

Head on over, everyone. The anti-vaccine movement is clearly out in force in the comments. Although the usual intrepid defenders of science are there, reinforcements are always welcome, particularly in the face of such unrelenting, neuron-apoptosing, IQ-sucking stupid as this from Michele Angelucci:

how nice that your only “expert” is paul (pr)offit. how objective could a the creator of a vaccine possibly be when talking about the subject of vaccines? especially one who voted to have his own vaccine added to the schedule (as a member of ACIP) when he should not have been voting due to a conflict of interest. his word on vaccines will NEVER hold any weight for me until he practices what he preaches and injects himself with the 100,000 vaccines at one time that he says would be safe for a child to take.

Let’s have some intelligent comments to counter intellect-destroying nonsense like Angelucci’s comment. Trine Tsouderos will thank you. I will thank you.

Comments

  1. #1 augustine
    March 22, 2011

    OOhhh. Can i get a needle sketched autograph in my deltoid by someone as so brave as Paul Offit? He’s so gutsy. He’s so brave. What a heero. I bet he gives all of his money from his vaccine profits and pharmaceutical speaking to Japanese tsunami victims. He’s everything Einstein wishes he could be. One day I hope he can lead our great nation. %100 vaccination rate and we’ll all be in utopia. What will we do with all of the money will save from infectious disease eradication?

  2. #2 novalox
    March 22, 2011

    Lord, some of the comments posted by the antivax trolls on the Tribune comment page really are headache-inducing.

    I keep telling myself that I should be used to this, with all the idiot antivax trolls that post here on RI, but the antivaxxers never fail to surprise me with the levels that they will stoop to in order to defame someone that doesn’t agree with their flawed views.

    Anyways, I wish I could log on to this, but I probably will be at work.

    Should be an interesting read, at the very least.

  3. #3 Orac
    March 22, 2011

    Lord, some of the comments posted by the antivax trolls on the Tribune comment page really are headache-inducing.

    Indeed. Some of them even approach a level of dumb that rivals even what augustine just posted.

  4. #4 MI Dawn
    March 22, 2011

    I’m not too sure that anyone who actually uses their brain for more than basic living (breathing, eating, eliminating) can rival little augie’s post. The stupid is strong with this one.

    I suppose it doesn’t matter to the antivax crowd that most of what Michelle A posted is a lie – he never said babies could tolerate being injected with 100,000 vaccines and he did NOT vote on his own vaccine (IIRC he recused himself from the discussion).

    Don’t know if I can access the webchat from work. I’ll try.

  5. #5 Antaeus Feldspar
    March 22, 2011

    Well, it looks like there was either some sort of technical error, or the editors saw things spiralling out of control quite fast: the page currently (8:31 Eastern) says there are zero comments.

    Which, if they all “rose” to the level shown by Michelle Angelucci and our own Boring Auger, means “nothing of value was lost,” as the 4-chan kids say.

  6. #6 Pablo
    March 22, 2011

    Offit was on Dr Radio with Perry Klass last week. I didn’t catch the original broadcast so couldn’t call, but did hear a repeat. He was very good as you can imagine. Klass is a pediatrician so has an interest in this. I did send her an email to let her know I appreciated it.

  7. #7 MikeMa
    March 22, 2011

    I was looking for some fun before a meeting this morning but I found, as did Antaeus Feldspar, that the comments were gone. I will try to tune in at noon Chicago time but I doubt work proxies will allow it.

  8. #8 Jen
    March 22, 2011

    Or, why not head to AoA and check out the story of yet another child with autism who suffers from agonizing GI pain. See autism discrimination at it’s best. Hear from a mother who “gets it” that autism is a whole body illness, not an “elaborate hoax.” The children with autism will thank you. I will thank you.
    PS. Paul Offit, Alison Singer and the whole “Autism Science Foundation” are a joke.

  9. #9 Lawrence
    March 22, 2011

    Jen – I happen to know of children who suffer from agonizing GI pain that aren’t autistic.

    What’s your point?

  10. #10 Rogue Epidemiologist
    March 22, 2011

    The AoA regulars are making the usual “vax’d vs. unvax’d” fuss on the LA Times health page. Care to respond in kind? I haven’t had my morning coffee yet, and I sure as hell don’t appreciate this crap in my morning paper.

  11. #11 novalox
    March 22, 2011

    @9

    That she has none? As she almost always has had when posting here?

    And that she, along with the whole anti-vax position, still commits the correlation-causation fallacy?

  12. #12 Chris
    March 22, 2011

    Quoting Ms. Angelucci in the main article:

    especially one who voted to have his own vaccine added to the schedule (as a member of ACIP) when he should not have been voting due to a conflict of interest.

    That is an amusing little lie. What is ridiculous about it is that it is so easily checked. All one has to do is check the CDC website for ACIP minutes pertaining to rotavirus vaccine approvals:

    Here is the 2005 draft version of ACIP minutes where Dr. Offit is a presenter, and not a committee member. RotaTeq was approved in 2006, Dr. Offit was no longer an ACIP member.

    And here are the 2006 ACIP minutes where RotaTeq is voted on. The rotavirus discussion starts on page 34, with a vote several pages later, I cannot find Offit’s name.

  13. #13 Pablo
    March 22, 2011

    If you aren’t following this now, you should.

    Offit just put a serious smackdown on Bob Sears

  14. #14 Rogue Epidemiologist
    March 22, 2011

    Yeah, that swipe at Sears was pretty good. Offit and Tsouderos are doing a nice job of hitting each of the usual talking points.

    I have several people in my office tuned into the webchat.

  15. #15 Todd W.
    March 22, 2011

    @Rogue Epi

    Posted a comment re: vax vs. unvax.

  16. #16 Interrobang
    March 22, 2011

    I’ve been suffering from GI pain since I was a child. It’s because I have cerebral palsy, not autism.

    Of course, in woo world, there’s only ever one cause for anything, and everything is related to everything else…except when that isn’t convenient.

    Idiots.

  17. #17 Rogue Epidemiologist
    March 22, 2011

    @Todd
    I see it. Nice :)

    @Interrobang
    If we’re going full woo and ancient wisdom, then I blame homunculi for my headaches.

  18. #18 MI Dawn
    March 22, 2011

    It was a good webinar. Of course, dear Anne Dachet had to show up and bleat that no one has done a vax vs unvax study. Dr Offit had a very nice response (not that she would listen to that). Lots of good questions, and rather heartening that of the listeners (readers?), 96% either had vaccinated their children or would if they had children (per the survey during the event)

  19. #19 lindaphn
    March 22, 2011

    Very nice webinar. There is a new vaccine documentary out called “The Greater Good”. Has anyone seen it? Dr. Offit is featured. Was wondering what the slant is. It is going to be shown at the Autism One Conference in Chicago and is featured on Age of Autism so I have an idea.

  20. #20 T. Bruce McNeely
    March 22, 2011

    It’s interesting how the antivax idiots go on and on about “Dr. (Pr)Offit”, and how awful it is that he made money from his development that prevented suffering and death. I asked them in a comment a while ago if they were Communists – wow, the butthurt from that!

    Yet they say nothing about the likes of Oz and the execrable John Edward making money ADDING to the misery of people suffering personal losses. I’m referring to this, specifically, where the father was told his son committed suicide.

  21. #21 Sid Offit
    March 22, 2011

    It’s really getting exhausting keeping up with all of Offit’s misinformation and mistakes. I’ll listen to the show and see how many I can find. Over-under is four.

  22. #22 Orac
    March 22, 2011

    There is a new vaccine documentary out called “The Greater Good”. Has anyone seen it? Dr. Offit is featured. Was wondering what the slant is. It is going to be shown at the Autism One Conference in Chicago and is featured on Age of Autism so I have an idea.

    Patience. The only reason I haven’t blogged about it yet is because I’ve been trying to get my hands on a review DVD. If I fail, I’ll still blog about it based on what I can find out about it from the website, on the web, and clips from it I’ve been able to locate. I’ll do this no later than sometime next week, given that its world premiere is on April 2.

    Suffice it to say, from what I have been able to find out thus far, it looks very much as though The Greater Good does to vaccine science what Expelled! did to evolution and that the pro-vaccine scientists who appeared were quite possibly not aware of the filmmakers’ intent–just like Expelled!.

  23. #23 Lynxreign
    March 22, 2011

    @21 Sid

    Whereas the odds are that you’ll be wrong about everything you “find”.

    The only real question, as always with you, is are you lying or just incredibly ignorant?

  24. #24 Sid Offit
    March 22, 2011

    @Lynx

    Paulie says measles related deaths numbered 3,000(not in this interview) in the pre-vaccine era; everyone else says ~450. Is Paul lying or incredibly ignorant?

  25. #25 René Najera
    March 22, 2011

    I’ve been suffering from GI pain since I was a child. It’s because I have cerebral palsy, not autism.

    Of course, in woo world, there’s only ever one cause for anything, and everything is related to everything else…except when that isn’t convenient.

    Idiots.

    Rule #2 of being an anti-vaxer: If there is an association between two events, then causation shall not be ruled out.

  26. #26 Lynxreign
    March 22, 2011

    @24 Siddie

    The most likely answer is that you’re lying again or misquoting because you’re ignorant.

  27. #27 Lynxreign
    March 22, 2011

    @24 Siddie

    I read your response again and I’m going have to say you’re rather incoherant. Your statement simply doesn’t make sense as it stands. Of course, that’s true of most of what you post, but this one reads like you’re trying to use shorthand references to arguments you make all the time. Since most of those are also inane I don’t know why I expect the shorthand to make any more sense.

  28. #28 Reuben Gaines
    March 22, 2011

    Sid Offit Schecter needs a lesson in how to win arguments. Everything he spews is pure, manipulative, intellectual dishonesty. We shouldn’t expect anything else from him, though.

    3,000 – Number quoted in a COMMENT regarding the number of deaths per year before 1963, based on available info.

    450 – AVERAGE between ’53 and ’63 of deaths REPORTED to CDC.

    Now, even if these numbers are a complete deviation from one another, does that mean that I am now free to discredit your rants should any of your data not agree with that of your overlords anti-vax colleagues?

    (Did you tell your wife you see Amanda Peet’s face when you make love to her?)

  29. #29 Science Mom
    March 22, 2011

    Paulie says measles related deaths numbered 3,000(not in this interview) in the pre-vaccine era; everyone else says ~450. Is Paul lying or incredibly ignorant?

    His name is Paul or Dr. Offit. I haven’t seen him make that claim, so perhaps you would like to provide the source for that. However, it is accepted that cases and deaths went under-reported during that time; by those knowledgeable in the field of epidemiology of course, not mulleted “writers”.

  30. #30 Sid Offit
    March 22, 2011

    Paulie 3,000
    Fatal Exemption: Relationship Between Vaccine Exemptions and Rates of Disease
    Dr. Paul Offit’s Commentary as published in Wall Street Journal

    Before the measles vaccine, measles caused 100,000 American children to be hospitalized and 3,000 to die every year

    CDC
    What Would Happen If We Stopped Vaccinations?
    Before measles immunization was available, nearly everyone in the U.S. got measles. An average of 450 measles-associated deaths were reported each year between 1953 and 1963.

    It’s widely acknowledged that cases, not deaths, were underreported. Unless you have a citation you like to share on mortality.

  31. #31 Lynxreign
    March 22, 2011

    Well would you look at that. 2 more people here highlighting the very problems with your incoherant statement Sid! Your 3000 vs. 450 lacked any context and as I suspected, you’re comparing apples and oranges.

    Follow that up with your lack of attribution (sorry, big workds likely confuse you, that means you didn’t say where you heard Dr. Offit make the statement) and you have the beginnings of why your statment makes no sense.

    Of course, none of this really cuts to the heart of the matter: Are you lying or just really stupid? From some of your posts it seems like the former, but the more people press you, it seems like the latter. Perhaps it is both! You’re a really stupid liar!

  32. #32 Science Mom
    March 22, 2011

    It’s widely acknowledged that cases, not deaths, were underreported. Unless you have a citation you like to share on mortality.

    We have discussed this previously and I know you remember that. You lack the expertise to parse the literature and I already provided numerous citations for the under-reporting of measles fatalities along with why so search the archives. If you are writing a book, it ought to be on par with Habkus’ and Hollands’ recent torturing of the evidence but I can still suggest you at least try for some accuracy.

  33. #33 Sid Offit
    March 22, 2011

    @Reuben

    Say hi to your mother for me

  34. #34 Pablo
    March 22, 2011

    This is a hoot. sid claims that it is “exhausting” trying to keep up with “all of Offit’s misinformation” and he is going to listen to some radio broadcast (I thought it was a web chat, but oh well) and find four mistakes. Yet, the only example he comes up with is actually NOT from the web chat, and is a lame weasel attempt that he has failed on previously?

    So much misinformation to correct that he has to recycle old material.

    Pretty lame.

  35. #35 Sid Offit
    March 22, 2011

    Sorry Pablo, I’m not up to data on “web chat” terminology. By the way are you the Pablo who’s question Paulie answered? If so how exciting for you.

    Amazing how everyone is dancing around Paul’s tenfold exaggeration.

  36. #36 Lynxreign
    March 22, 2011

    @Sid the ignorant

    Even using the lower number of 450 deaths per year, that means there’ve been 21,250 deaths prevented in the US alone since the vaccine came into use. You’re stating that that many deaths would be fine to you (not to mention the needless suffering of those who got the disease and didn’t die who you never seem to mention, apparently because you think suffering is fun).

    Of course, the alternative is that someone will be tampering with your precious bodily fluids. Can’t have that! You’re far too fragile, little Siddie. You’d shatter at the most delicate touch!

  37. #37 lilady
    March 22, 2011

    According to Minnesota Public Radio website (5 hours ago), the number of confirmed measles cases in Hennepin County is now nine.

    Four of the nine confirmed cases are infants who are too young to have received the measles vaccine.

    An additional four of the nine confirmed cases are in children whose parents refused the vaccine.

    Five of the nine confirmed cases are Somali children…thank you Age of Autism, Dr. Gordon, Dr. Wakefield, Jenny Mccarthy and all the woo meisters and gullible parents. I guess you finally have your vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated study.

    Eighty-one days into 2011 and the nine confirmed measles cases in Hennepin County exceed the number of confirmed cases in Minnesota during the previous five years..combined.

  38. #38 Science Mom
    March 22, 2011

    Amazing how everyone is dancing around Paul’s tenfold exaggeration.

    Refusal to understand and accept the evidence on your part, does not constitute “dancing around” Dr. Offit’s claim on our’s.

  39. #39 Alison
    March 22, 2011

    how nice that your only “expert” is paul (pr)offit. how objective could a the creator of a vaccine possibly be when talking about the subject of vaccines?

    Wait a second. . .wasn’t Andrew Wakefield working on his own measles vaccine when he started the whole measles vaccine causing autism thing? Or is that somehow completely different depending on your personal agenda? Ah, those crazy antivaxers!

  40. #40 lindaphn
    March 22, 2011

    @Orac 22
    Just curious. The film maker lives in my community. She asked me for some used vaccine vials for her cover art, thinking it would make a great visual. I was unable to provide them due to regulated medical waste guidelines. I asked her if this was a pro- or con-vaccine documentary and she replied “neither, it is about the science of vaccines”.

  41. #41 Orac
    March 22, 2011

    You do realize that Leslie Manookian Bradshaw, the producer of the film, is a practicing homeopath, don’t you? I suspect she wouldn’t know “science” if it bit her in the ass.

  42. #42 lindaphn
    March 22, 2011

    Of course I do. I am trying to be circumspect, you don’t live in a “small” community with a very wide swath of CAM influence. The ripples run wide and paths cross in many different ways.

  43. #43 ChrisKid
    March 22, 2011

    @40: In other words, we’re not anti-vaccine, we just want people to have all the right misinformation.

    Just what we need, more ammunition for the vaxaloons.

  44. #44 W. Kevin Vicklund
    March 23, 2011

    It’s widely acknowledged that cases, not deaths, were underreported. Unless you have a citation you like to share on mortality.

    Here’s one. Acute measles mortality in the United States, 1987-2002 The researchers estimated about 1/3 of deaths were unreported. Keep in mind that this period started about 25 years after vaccination started. It is likely that it was better reported in the 1990s than the 1950s (though I could see a counter argument).

    Also, it is unclear what the time-frame was for Dr. Offit’s estimate.

  45. #45 lilady
    March 23, 2011

    From the MMWR April 2, 1999 Issue, Article entitled:

    “Impact of Vaccines Universally Recommended for Children United States 1900-1998″ Measles….In 1920, 469,924 case were reported resulting in 7575 deaths.

  46. #46 lilady
    March 23, 2011

    @ Sid, Augie, Thingy and….

    So that you all can keep up with prevalence rates of measles both before and after the measles vaccine became available in the United States, I refer you to the JAMA article appearing in the November 14, 2007 issue:

    “Historical Comparisons of Morbidity and Mortality for Vaccine-Preventable Diseases in the United States”

    Its a rather longer article and includes some very interesting facts about childhood vaccines. Just go to the website for the abstract then request the PDF version of the entire article.

    Oh and Sid, if you don’t want me to call you Sid Offal, please use “Dr. Offit” when you refer to him.

  47. #47 herr doktor bimler
    March 23, 2011

    Amazing how everyone is dancing around Paul’s tenfold exaggeration.

    I am puzzled how reminding a commenter about his early promise at #21, to find an “Over-under” of four examples of “Offit’s misinformation and mistakes” (rather than being sidetracked by a claim in #30 about an unidentified issue of WSJ), can be classified as “dancing around” that later claim — unconnected as it is to the topic of this post.

    Perhaps this is a term of art with which I am unacquainted.

  48. #48 lilady
    March 23, 2011

    @ herr doktor bimler: Sid practices the art of b.s. Or, perhaps he has read the articles from the MMWR and from JAMA that I referenced in posts #45 and #46 above.

    Orac, I viewed the “press kit” available on the web at greatergoodmovie.org and now have an idea of the slant/bias of the movie.

  49. #49 Science Mom
    March 23, 2011

    The ingredients in some vaccines include mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, antifreeze, cells from animal organs and tissues, cells from aborted fetal tissue, antibiotics, and diseases. Some argue that trace amounts of these ingredients are harmless while others insist they are not only potentially harmful but that they cause many of the chronic illnesses we see today.

    @lilady, yea they’re sure going for accuracy and “balance” here. Not to mention their list of “experts”.

  50. #50 T. Bruce McNeely
    March 23, 2011

    Some selected quotes from greatergood.com:

    Goals of the Film:

    1) Open the hearts and minds of individuals to the reality that vaccine injuries occur.
    2) Encourage parents to talk with doctors about vaccine safety before making informed decisions.
    3) Demand independent vaccine safety research before approval and licensure by the FDA.
    4) Hold pharmaceutical companies accountable when vaccines cause harm.
    5) Petition for philosophical exemptions from mandatory vaccinations in all 50 states.
    6) End the FDA’s fast-tracking of childhood vaccinations.

    From the press kit:

    Some supportive groups include Mothering Magazine, Holistic Moms’ Network, Generation Rescue, National Vaccine Information Center, Mercola.com and AskBobSears.com.

    Need we say more?

  51. #51 John Nevard
    March 23, 2011

    augustine: Please keep on drinking that anti-vax raw milk. You are indistinguishable from a really excellent parody of a raving lunatic at this point. Things can only improve.

  52. #52 Sid Offit
    March 23, 2011

    Here’s some of Paulie’s mistakes/distortions

    12:05 he talks about vaccinated/unvaccinated studies having been done but on the video for AFP on amazon he said they’ve been done

    12:44 he implies the firefighters entering the WTC as acting from a communal responsibility when it was a job they were paid to do. Everyone else was running away from the buildings

    12:55 he tries to create the idea that there is some “resurgence” of infectious illnesses (there have always, in the post-vaccine era, been sporadic outbreaks) and then tie this resurgence to falling vaccine rates while vaccine rates are at all time highs.

    So there’s three. And I didn’t say he’d make four. I said the over-under was four. But I didn’t say I had the over.
    ————
    @lilady
    In 1920, 469,924 case were reported resulting in 7575 deaths

    What’s the point of the above? That was 43 years before the measles vaccine
    ————
    The measles underreporting story is interesting. A lot of it hinges on how a measles related death is defined. In addition it relies on a model based on a theory as its foundation. It did illustrate how little danger the measles poses to your average, healthy child. That was reassuring. And finally even if the underestimation is correct one gets nowhere near 3,000 deaths
    ——————
    Also, it is unclear what the time-frame was for Dr. Offit’s estimate

    When he says before the vaccine it indicates, at least to me,he’s talking about a period of some stability (he says each year) and a period that has some relationship to the vaccine (or he’d specify a time, e.g., the 1920s)

  53. #53 René Najera
    March 23, 2011

    Stand back, everyone, the universe is about to implode… Sid just criticized opinions with his own opinions AND threw in an opinion on someone’s opinion with a 9/11 reference.

    He thereby proves rule #7 to being an antivaxer: Opinions are facts, depending on who says it and only if it supports anti-vaccine worldviews.

    Next, he’ll surely tell us that the firefighters were in on the 9/11 plot but the Illuminati failed to send them the appropriate signal to retreat. (Apocryphal.)

    Tell us, Sid… What’s your endgame?

  54. #54 MI Dawn
    March 23, 2011

    Now I know you are lying, Sid. You said

    12:05 he talks about vaccinated/unvaccinated studies having been done but on the video for AFP on amazon he said they’ve been done

    Since I recall your commenting on the post, you can’t have already forgotten the VAX vs UNVAX study Orac discussed that came out of Germany? Oh, wait. That’s right. It doesn’t count because 1)they were German and not American 2)there were too few unvaxed children since the authors were very strict and grouped any child who had gotten even 1 vaccine with the vaxed group and 3)they didn’t look at autism.

    I won’t bother addressing your other points since I’m having a bad day and don’t need to want to hit someone ELSE with a clue bat.

  55. #55 Sid Offit
    March 23, 2011

    We’ll unless Offit is clairvoyant how did he know about the German “study” when AFP (Autism’s False Prophets) came out in 2008. Besides he was specifically talking about such studies being done in regards to autism.

    I hope your day improves and look forward to hearing from you when your mood is improved.

  56. #56 Chemmomo
    March 23, 2011

    Hey Sid,

    12:44 he implies the firefighters entering the WTC as acting from a communal responsibility when it was a job they were paid to do

    People volunteer to become firefighters. They’re not drafted into the profession. They do so because (among other things) they have that sense of communal responsibility.

    The fact that many cities have paid firefighters, including NYC, doesn’t change the fact those paid firefighters chose their own jobs.

  57. #57 Beamup
    March 23, 2011

    12:55 he tries to create the idea that there is some “resurgence” of infectious illnesses (there have always, in the post-vaccine era, been sporadic outbreaks) and then tie this resurgence to falling vaccine rates while vaccine rates are at all time highs.

    You mean like the way measles didn’t become endemic again in the UK after Wakefield?

    Oh wait.

  58. #58 Narad
    March 23, 2011

    Sid practices the art of b.s.

    Nah, it’s horseshit.

  59. #59 Todd W.
    March 23, 2011

    @Beamup

    You mean like the way measles didn’t become endemic again in the UK after Wakefield?

    Oh wait.

    Or like how vaccination rates did not decline and measles did not break out among the Somali population in MN following the scare tactics of JB Handley and Generation Rescue there.

  60. #60 triskelethecat
    March 23, 2011

    @Sid. Thank you for the kind wishes. I have not seen the AFP video so will try to look at that (I rarely go on Amazon and got my copy of AFP as one of the given ones when Sciblogs had the contest for the book club).

    My community, for many years, had only volunteer firefighters (and many of the surrounding communities are the same). Due to a lack of people being home during the day, we now have paid fighters for the day time hours. Many of them went to help with the WTC clean up. Not drafted. A sense of community. And, we have a very active junior fire department, so our teens are also getting involved in their community.

  61. #61 Pablo
    March 23, 2011

    It’s not surprising that this is one of the things that Sid gets hung up on. He has no conscious at all or sense of communal responsibility or empathy. He’s the poster child for the selfish a-hole with no sense of responsibility toward others.

    Who do you think I was referring to when I sent the question?

  62. #62 JohnV
    March 23, 2011

    @Sid

    “(there have always, in the post-vaccine era, been sporadic outbreaks)”

    Yeah no kidding. Why, last year’s outbreak of small pox was horrific.

  63. #63 Lynxreign
    March 23, 2011

    @52 Sid the moron

    Hooray, I was right! You were wrong about everything you “found”! You’re at 0.

    Of course, you’re still fluctuating between lying and stupid, so I guess the answer, as best as we’ll be able to determine, is that you’re both a liar AND incredibly ignorant.

  64. #64 lilady
    March 23, 2011

    @ Sid Offal: We notice how you back down from providing any citations regarding Dr. Offit’s statements…and now have superimposed your own (low) opinion regarding the deaths of first responders at the World Trade Center. Don’t go there Offal, as some of the poster actually know first responders who died in the Towers…including some off-duty responders who paid the ultimate price for their altruism.

    @ Narad: thanks for correcting me; Offal practices the art of horseshit.

  65. #65 Science Mom
    March 23, 2011

    Here’s some of Paulie’s mistakes/distortions

    12:05 he talks about vaccinated/unvaccinated studies having been done but on the video for AFP on amazon he said they’ve been done

    Mullethead, this is what Dr. Offit states at 12:05:

    The best way to study vaccine safety is prospectively. Obviously, you could never ethically do this study prospectively because it would be unethical to withhold vaccines, which are known to prevent suffering, hospitalization, and death. Some retrospective studies are starting to emerge. One published by Charles Woods and Michael Smith in Pediatrics looked at fully vaccinated and relatively unvaccinated children and, not surprisingly, found no difference in neurological outcome. But all of the biological evidence for autism points away from vaccines, so calling for such a study seems off the point and largely unfair to parents of children with autism.

    What you have contested is not consistent with Dr. Offit’s statement.

    12:44 he implies the firefighters entering the WTC as acting from a communal responsibility when it was a job they were paid to do. Everyone else was running away from the buildings

    Try to follow along in spite of your “I’m just for me” attitude; public servants such as policeman and fireman do so out of the desire to serve, for the most part. I doubt they could have anticipated the devastation of 9.11 yet did their jobs, risked their lives and long-term health and some died out of commitment to the people that they have sworn to serve. I know it is a foreign concept to an entitled twit like yourself but you are now 2/2.

    12:55 he tries to create the idea that there is some “resurgence” of infectious illnesses (there have always, in the post-vaccine era, been sporadic outbreaks) and then tie this resurgence to falling vaccine rates while vaccine rates are at all time highs.

    A great example of why laypeople need to STFU about scientific disciplines they know nothing about. Measles-UK, pertussis-U.S. (and Sweden, Japan and UK whenever vaccine rates fell), Mumps-UK and Japan, Diphtheria-Russia, Rubella-Japan, Polio-Nigeria. All results of falling vaccine rates for those particular diseases. While overall vaccine rates may be high in the U.S., geographic clustering of under and un-vaccinated is occurring which allows for spread of diseases. So get your head out of your U.S.-centric arse. There, you’re 3/3.

    @lilady
    In 1920, 469,924 case were reported resulting in 7575 deaths

    What’s the point of the above? That was 43 years before the measles vaccine

    The point is, is that measles deaths were under-reported and high death counts occurred. You stated that Dr. Offit was incorrect with his alleged statement that more than 3,000 deaths occurred pre-vaccine. The last time I checked, the 1920’s were pre-vaccine.

    The measles underreporting story is interesting. A lot of it hinges on how a measles related death is defined. In addition it relies on a model based on a theory as its foundation. It did illustrate how little danger the measles poses to your average, healthy child. That was reassuring. And finally even if the underestimation is correct one gets nowhere near 3,000 deaths

    WTF kind of word salad is this? Many deaths were attributed to secondary illnesses caused by measles and not measles itself, even a substantial number of SSPE cases were thought to have been caused by the vaccine since an atypical measles illness went completely undetected. If you took it upon yourself to learn measles pathogenesis, you would know this. The measles case-fatality rate has not improved from the advent of antibiotics to the last large U.S. outbreak and also in Germany and Switzerland.

    And this? “In addition it relies on a model based on a theory as its foundation.”, you’re quite the turd merchant. I can’t wait until your book comes out and I’ll make my prediction; An overwrought piece of evidence-free dreck that will head straight to the bargain bin at your local bookstore. No news or talk show circuit; no book signings with hundreds or even tens of adoring fans. But please do send Orac an advance copy. I’m sure you will receive a lot of attention which you so desperately crave.

  66. #66 Science Mom
    March 23, 2011

    The measles case-fatality rate has not improved from the advent of antibiotics to the last large U.S. outbreak and also in Germany and Switzerland.

    “From” should have been “since”.

  67. #67 Reuben Gaines
    March 23, 2011

    Wow, Sid Schecter, you really put your foot in it this time. Speaking of mothers, is yours proud of the Internet troll you grew up to be?

    It must be lonely in that little mind of yours.

  68. #68 Sid Offit
    March 23, 2011

    @(I know nothing about)Science Mom

    public servants such as policeman and fireman do so out of the desire to serve, for the most part

    That’s absolutely ridiculous. You’ve been living in Altruismland far too long. The fire department is a great job providing a good salary, great benefits and an unbelievable retirement plan. That’s why people choose the job, not to fulfill a burning desire to help people.
    ——————
    Offit says the studies have been done. Here’s the Offit quote from Amazon. What part of that don’t you get???

    A few years ago there was born the notion that vaccines might cause autism. And so the public health community responded. They responded by doing a series of studies to try to answer the question were you at greater risk of getting autism if you’ve gotten vaccines and if you hadn’t. The answer was clear, consistent and reproducible. No!

    ——————————

    What about pertussis US?

    It’s absurd to state falling (I mean record) vaccination rates had to do with the 2010 outbreak. Clustering? Show me the evidence.
    —————–
    Oh look. It’s on google books
    Vaccines: what you should know By Paul A. Offit, Louis M. Bell

    Paulie says 1962 – 3,000 measles deaths. I guess he forgot the footnote
    —————-

    Word salad

    I’m sorry your “science mom” background leaves you unprepared to realize capture recapture is a statistical model based on a mathematical theory

    OK, you can crawl back into your vaccine syringe now.

  69. #69 herr doktor bimler
    March 23, 2011

    The context: death toll from measles in the years before a measles vaccine was available.

    The claim (comment 24): Dr Paul Offit has wrongly stated that measles deaths per year were 3000 “in the pre-vaccine era”.

    The rebuttal: “In 1920, 469,924 case were reported resulting in 7575 deaths”. That is, Dr Offit’s error was to understate the annual death-toll.

    The response (#52): What’s the point of the above? That was 43 years before the measles vaccine.
    ——————————————–
    I retain a professional interest in this form of reasoning and would like to hear more.

  70. #70 dedicated lurker
    March 23, 2011

    “That’s absolutely ridiculous. You’ve been living in Altruismland far too long. The fire department is a great job providing a good salary, great benefits and an unbelievable retirement plan. That’s why people choose the job, not to fulfill a burning desire to help people.”

    Siddy, there are a lot of jobs that give you those things that don’t involve risking your life on a regular basis.

  71. #71 Sid Offit
    March 23, 2011

    Really, with a high school diploma and the ability to have a side business/job? Please provide a list.

  72. #72 herr doktor bimler
    March 23, 2011

    I am puzzled here:
    [Dr Paul Offit] talks about vaccinated/unvaccinated studies having been done but on the video for AFP on amazon he said they’ve been done

    So on the web-chat that is the topic of this thread, he talks about retrospective comparative studies that have been done and are being published (he singles one out “by Charles Woods and Michael Smith in Pediatrics”).

    If in fact these studies have not been done, and the names of Woods and Smith do not appear in Pediatrics, then Dr Offit would be in error.
    Instead, however, we are told that in another video Dr Offit again mentions “a series of studies” that have been done.

    Comment 68: Here’s the Offit quote from Amazon. What part of that don’t you get???
    — I don’t get the part where Dr Offit contradicts himself.

    A better explanation is needed.

  73. #73 Sid Offit
    March 23, 2011

    A study where everybody is vaccinated, isn’t a vaccinated / unvaccinated study. And Offit said these had been done in a 2008 interview. Does he have the ability to travel time?
    ———————-
    Here’s another 2008 Offit interview (same time as the Amazon one)
    http://scienceblogs.com/bookclub/2008/10/afp_authorday3.php

    Also, as has been pointed out by several of you who have commented on this blog, such a study (prospective) would be unethical.

    So if this study is unethical we can assume it hasn’t been done. That leaves us with a retrospective study. He addresses this here:

    So, the study could only be done retrospectively and would be fraught with bias, primarily differences in healthcare-seeking behavior. And even if performed and performed well, it would not end the debate. Because those who believe that vaccines are causing chronic diseases will never be swayed by data

    The use of the word IF in “even if performed” indicates it hadn’t been done. This interview was given the same month of the Amazon quote in #68 saying these studies have been done. I don’t know how much more clear I can make it.

  74. #74 Sid Offit
    March 23, 2011

    Travel time because the study you raised was done in 2010, Offit’s comments 2008

  75. #75 herr doktor bimler
    March 23, 2011

    A study where everybody is vaccinated, isn’t a vaccinated / unvaccinated study

    The “vaccinated / unvaccinated” description is yours, from comment 52. Not anyone else’s. If it does not apply to the studies that Dr Offit talks about in the webcast, that would be your problem.

    And Offit said these had been done in a 2008 interview.

    I am not interested in what Dr Offit may have said in a 2008 interview, for I am lazy and single-minded, and interested only in whether Dr Offit erred in the webcast which we are currently discussing.
    The webcast in which he describes “Some retrospective studies [with] fully vaccinated and relatively unvaccinated children…”

    Are you saying these actual studies do not exist? If they exist, then Dr Offit is correct.

  76. #76 Science Mom
    March 23, 2011

    @(I know nothing about)Science Mom

    public servants such as policeman and fireman do so out of the desire to serve, for the most part

    That’s absolutely ridiculous. You’ve been living in Altruismland far too long. The fire department is a great job providing a good salary, great benefits and an unbelievable retirement plan. That’s why people choose the job, not to fulfill a burning desire to help people.

    @ Mullethead, I have always used your ‘nym properly and will return to doing so once you cease your disrespectful use of Dr. Offit’s name. Try to express your inferiority complex another way. As stated by dedicated lurker, there are other, safer occupations that one can pursue. You have been living in narcissistic land too long. You are really torturing Dr. Offit’s statement to “win” an argument.

    Offit says the studies have been done. Here’s the Offit quote from Amazon. What part of that don’t you get???

    A few years ago there was born the notion that vaccines might cause autism. And so the public health community responded. They responded by doing a series of studies to try to answer the question were you at greater risk of getting autism if you’ve gotten vaccines and if you hadn’t. The answer was clear, consistent and reproducible. No!

    That’s nice but what does it have to do with what he stated at 12:05 during the live chat?

    What about pertussis US?

    It’s absurd to state falling (I mean record) vaccination rates had to do with the 2010 outbreak. Clustering? Show me the evidence.

    California does not have record vaccination rates, and they have large clusters of un and under-vaccinated. What is absurd is that you don’t know about clustering and how it impacts disease epidemiology. But then again, you’re a “writer”. Nothing wrong with that, but you are out of your league. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-immunization29-2009mar29-map,0,426776.htmlstory

    Pediatrics 2010;125:747–755

    http://www.immunize.org/journalarticles/laws_exemp.asp

    Oh look. It’s on google books
    Vaccines: what you should know By Paul A. Offit, Louis M. Bell

    Paulie says 1962 – 3,000 measles deaths. I guess he forgot the footnote

    Or it is at the end with all of the other citations. I know that measles deaths were under-reported so I don’t have a problem with his statement, especially when, oh look, he also corrected for a more accurate number of annual cases. What a rotten guy.

    I’m sorry your “science mom” background leaves you unprepared to realize capture recapture is a statistical model based on a mathematical theory

    Oh how cute, Sid learned a term and is going to exploit it to make us think he isn’t out of his league. OK, now try putting the whole thing in context and discuss an actual use of it and how it relates to measles case fatality under-reporting.

    OK, you can crawl back into your vaccine syringe now.

    Pretty lame for a writer-boy. I hope you can obtain lots of technical help for your book. You will need it.

  77. #77 Rene Najera
    March 23, 2011

    Wow, Sid Schecter, you really put your foot in it this time. Speaking of mothers, is yours proud of the Internet troll you grew up to be?

    It must be lonely in that little mind of yours.

    My prediction, Reuben, is that his mother is not talking to him anymore, and it IS very lonely in that little mind of his. He can’t even grasp the concept that Dr. Offit might have been talking about a DIFFERENT study from one video to the other. Instead, Robert Schecter (who can’t even stand his own name and goes by Sid Offit) chalks it up to time travel.

  78. #78 Sid Offit
    March 23, 2011

    can’t even stand his own name

    At least it’s not a girls name Rene.

  79. #79 Science Mom
    March 23, 2011

    At least it’s not a girls name Rene.

    Have you even stepped foot out of the U.S.? Read a book about another country? Even tried to learn a foreign language you fuck bucket?

  80. #80 Rene Descartes
    March 23, 2011

    I resent that.

  81. #81 lilady
    March 24, 2011

    No matter what his posting name, I think Sid Offal is an appropriate name for the slimebag.

  82. #82 T. Bruce McNeely
    March 24, 2011

    Rene = boy’s name

    Renee = girl’s name

    Sid Offit = fool’s name

  83. #83 Rene Magritte
    March 24, 2011

    @78:

    So do I.

  84. #84 Rene Levesque
    March 24, 2011

    @81:

    Me too.

  85. #85 lilady
    March 24, 2011

    Confirmed cases of measles in Hennepin County is now eleven.

    From the (Minneapolis) Star Tribune.com “Anti-vaccination doctor meets with Somalis”

    While Minneapolis and Minnesota Health Department officials are trying to contain the outbreak of measles by providing measles vaccine to the large Somali community and community at large, Andrew Wakefield met with a group of Somali parents, last night Wednesday, March 23rd. It was his third trip to Minneapolis since December, 2010 for the purpose of talking to Somalis about the vaccine-autism link.

    The press was not permitted to be in attendance and Wakefield refused to talk to reporters.

  86. #86 jim
    March 24, 2011

    lilady, why am I now put in mind of a quote from the Simpsons? (Paraphrased from memory): “He has now crossed the line between ordinary villainy and cartoonish super-villainy.”

  87. #87 Rene Auberjonois
    March 24, 2011

    The idiot Schecter can’t bring anything better to the table than that? Somewhere in New Jersey, a grade school is missing its bully.

  88. #88 Heliantus
    March 24, 2011

    @ Sid “only money counts”

    The fire department is a great job providing a good salary, great benefits and an unbelievable retirement plan. That’s why people choose the job, not to fulfill a burning desire to help people

    The two are not mutually exclusive. And you will excuse us if we feel some admiration for people who choose a job in which they are willingly risking their life for us.

    That a soulless, small world you are living in.

  89. #89 jim
    March 24, 2011

    Heliantus, it seems to me to be another example of a typical anti-vaxxer stance. Namely, that being paid to do your job constitutes a conflict of interest and/or automatically invalidates anything you might achieve or discover in the course of that job. As others have pointed out, you have to wonder why so many of them seem to have so much trouble with the concept of working for a living.

    (Yes, I am posting this at work, why do you ask?)

  90. #90 Todd W.
    March 24, 2011

    Sid says, re: other jobs existing with good pay w/o risking one’s life:

    Really, with a high school diploma and the ability to have a side business/job? Please provide a list.

    So, Sid, if being a firefighter is such a great deal (good pay, great benefits, no higher degree needed, moonlighting option, etc.), why aren’t you one? Wouldn’t be because you’re a self-centered twit that doesn’t give a rat’s arse about anyone else, right?

    As to his attempts to show Dr. Offit being incorrect, it’s par for the course. Sid aspires to be king of misquoting and quote mining.

  91. #91 Rene Callie
    March 24, 2011

    Namely, that being paid to do your job constitutes a conflict of interest and/or automatically invalidates anything you might achieve or discover in the course of that job.

    Well, Schecter is an investment and commodities trader. I’m sure he doesn’t take any pay for playing with people’s money.

    I’d like to stay and discuss this more, including how easy it is to get people’s tax records in New Jersey (to see if they have any conflicts of interests and if said people invest in “Big Pharma”) but I have to run out to Timbuktu.

  92. #92 Ted
    March 24, 2011

    Jim-
    goes to show you. Attorney Holland would like to garner tort settlements- hence her strident opposition to the Supreme Court decision. But, they will readily bring up Dr. Offit’s success as a conflict of interest.
    The anti-vaxxers shortsightedness is, well, par for their course. Next thing, they’ll call public health advocates Nazis, under the guise of a “rational discussion” . Oh, they’ve done that already..stupid me..

  93. #93 K
    March 27, 2011

    Schechter’s feculent remarks are elephant shit: putrid and unneeded.

  94. #94 K
    March 27, 2011

    Schechter’s feculent remarks are elephant shit: putrid and unneeded.

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