Respectful Insolence

Yesterday, I learned of how animal rights terrorists are targeting college students as the “soft underbelly of the vivisection movement.” As an example of their new strategy, these thugs gloated over the “recantation” by a Florida Atlantic University student named Alena Rodriguez, who, because of her e-mail to a Negotiation Is Over editor named Ghazal Tajalli rejecting her request to become involved in an animal rights event, was targeted for a campaign of intimidation, smears, and harassment. As a result, Rodriguez was sufficiently terrified that she basically gave the thugs what they wanted: An apology and statement promising not to do animal research. The animal rights loons at NIO had won using logic like this:

Or so it seemed to them.

Perhaps they should not be so confident. Their despicable and cowardly attacks on Rodriguez have mobilized support for her. Also, as Speaking of Research points out, students are not the easy targets that Camille Marino and Ghazal Tajalli apparently think that they are:

Though NIO may refer to students as the “Soft bellied target of the vivisection complex” who “can be shut down with relative ease,” they should study their history. In the winter of 2005, the ALF launched a campaign that targeted students at Oxford University in the UK, declaring them to be “legitimate targets”. Did the students bow to the threats and arson attacks on their facilities? Not a chance! The students responded by launching the Pro-Test movement in support of animal research, and gave the ALF a drubbing which helped to turn the tide against AR extremism in the UK. The hate and lies of the ALF were simply no match for the solidarity shown by students and scientists at Oxford.

Similarly, the extremists at NIO may claim one victory, but they fail to see how much dedication they create at the exact same time.

Moreover, NIO is apparently too deluded or fanatical to realize that threatening college students could backfire on them spectacularly. First off, if NIO ever directly harms a student, it is likely to cause far more revulsion in the very people that Marino and company think they can persuade. Second, such threats are likely to goad universities into action in a way that they haven’t been goaded in the past. As Earle Holland points out :

In recent years, universities have been moving away from a historic role of “in loco parentis,” where the institution served in lieu of parents far away. Students, as well as administrators, are more comfortable now with the notion that students are young adults.

But if Camille or others think that universities will stand idly by while animal rights activists abuse and harass their students, they are sorely mistaken. The fact that institutions have been reserved on this issue in the past isn’t evidence that they will allow acts against students.

Camille’s miscalculation may well awaken sleeping giants.

I certainly hope so. It is not clear how much support FAU has provided Alena. Perhaps it was not enough. Perhaps FAU has never faced a situation like this before. What NIO has done, however, should arouse university administrators at every university that does significant biomedical and biological research. NIO has revealed its hand, and that hand is wearing brass knuckles. Universities need to act now to protect their students before those brass knuckles are covered in blood.

ADDENDUM: Former ScienceBlogger Janet Stemwedel points out the vile nature of Camille Marino’s tactics.

Comments

  1. #1 The Analyst
    March 30, 2011

    All this animal talk is making me hungry for some Vietnamese Pho with dog. Mmmmm.

    Think that will be my lunch for today.

  2. #2 Sigivald
    March 30, 2011

    If NIO ever harms a student (or anyone else), they’re also up for legal action of a much more vigorous sort than vague threats of “direct action” would get them.

    If there’s State line crossing involved (even in communication, which makes it almost certain), it’ll be Federal legal action, too. And then there are conspiracy charges. Hell, there might even be RICO Act stuff to throw at them.

    The last thing they should ever want is to get the sort of attention that actually harming someone, but especially students will get them.

  3. #3 Paul
    March 30, 2011

    Thanks for writing about this again Orac, and especially for the Mitchell and Webb link…a great antidote to all that bile at NIO.

    Alena deserves the support of the scientific community, and you can show that support by adding your voice to the comments at http://speakingofresearch.com/2011/03/30/a-new-low-at-nio/

  4. #4 david
    March 30, 2011

    It’s a shame that the most vocal and visible animal rights groups always seem to be insane.
    I would like to see a push for science based animal rights. As most people here I believe that animals should be treated as humanly as possible whilst using animals in the most efficient smallest number that will provide useful results and only in situations where the animal as a model has been shown to be accurate and reliable. I also support research to finding alternatives to animal testing.

    It’s just so frustrating when you see these groups stating obvious falsehoods and claiming that its science. This also seems to happen in the environmental groups more than it should given that the evidence is already on their side.

    It’s also fairly telling when you look at the numbers of animals used worldwide for testing and then compare it with the number that are exterminated, poached or eaten. Wish I still had the graph for that.

  5. #5 sean micheal
    March 30, 2011

    WHEN INJUSTICE BECOMES LAW..REBELLION BECOMES DUTY…BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.

    1) Less than 2% of human illnesses (1.16%) are ever seen in animals. Over 98% never affect animals.

    2) According to the former scientific executive of Huntingdon Life Sciences, animal tests and human results agree “5%-25% of the time.”

    3) Among the hundreds of techniques available instead of animal experiments, cell culture toxicology methods give accuracy rates of 80-85%

    4) 92% of drugs passed by animal tests immediately fail when first tried on humans because they’re useless, dangerous or both.

    5) The two most common illnesses in the Western world are lung cancer from smoking and heart disease. Neither can be reproduced in lab animals.

    6) A 2004 survey of doctors in the UK showed that 83% wanted a independent scientific evaluation of whether animal experiments had relevance to human patients. Less than 1 in 4 (21%) had more confidence in animal tests than in non-animal methods.

    7) Rats are 37% effective in identifying what causes cancer to humans – less use than guessing. The experimenters said: “we would have been better off to have tossed a coin.”

    8. Rodents are the animals almost always used in cancer research. They never get carcinomas, the human form of cancer, which affects membranes (eg lung cancer). Their sarcomas affect bone and connective tissue: the two are completely different.

    9) The results from animal tests are routinely altered radically by diet, light, noise, temperature, lab staff and bedding. Bedding differences caused cancer rates of over 90% and almost zero in the same strain of mice at different labs.

    10)Sex differences among lab animals can cause contradictory results. This does not correspond with humans.

    11) 75% of side effects identified in animals never occur.

    12) Over half of side effects cannot be detected in lab animals.

    13) Vioxx was shown to protect the heart of mice, dogs, monkeys and other lab animals. It was linked to heart attacks and strokes in up to 139,000 humans.

    14) Genetically modified animals are not like humans. The mdx mouse is supposed to have muscular dystrophy, but the muscles regenerate with no treatment.

    15) GM animal the CF- mouse never gets fluid infections in the lungs – the cause of death for 95% of human cystic fibrosis patients.

    16) In America, 106,000 deaths a year are attributed to reactions to medical drugs.

    17) Each year 2.1 million Americans are hospitalised by medical treatment.

    18) In the UK an estimated 70,000 people are killed or severely disabled every year by unexpected reactions to drugs. All these drugs have passed animal tests.

    19) In the UKs House Of Lords questions have been asked regarding why unexpected reactions to drugs (which passed animal tests) kill more people than cancer.

    20) A German doctors’ congress concluded that 6% of fatal illnesses and 25% of organic illness are caused by medicines. All have been animal tested.

    21) According to a thorough study, 88% of stillbirths are caused by drugs which passed animal tests.

    22) 61% of birth defects were found to have the same cause.

    23) 70% of drugs which cause human birth defects are safe in pregnant monkeys.

    24) 78% of foetus-damaging chemicals can be detected by one non-animal test.

    25) Thousands of safe products cause birth defects in lab animals – including water, several vitamins, vegetable oils, oxygen and drinking waters. Of more than 1000 substances dangerous in lab animals, over 97% are safe in humans.

    26) One of the most common lifesaving operation (for ectopic pregnancies) was delayed 40 years by vivisection.

    27) The great Dr Hadwen noted “had animal experiments been relied upon…humanity would have been robbed of this great blessing of anaesthesia.”

    28) Aspirin fails animal tests, as do digitalis (heart drug), cancer drugs, insulin (which causes animal birth defects), penicillin and other safe medicines. They would be banned if vivisection were believed.

    29) Blood transfusions were delayed 200 years by animal studies.

    30) The polio vaccine was delayed 40 years by monkey tests.

    31) 30 HIV vaccines, 33 spinal cord damage drugs, and over 700 treatments for stroke have been developed in animals. None work in humans.

    32) Despite many Nobel prizes going to vivisectors, only 45% agree that animal experiments are crucial.

    33) The Director of Research Defence Society, (which serves only to defend vivisection) was asked if medical progress could have been achieved without animal use. His written reply was “I am sure it could be.”

  6. #6 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    [citation needed]

  7. #7 cairne.morane
    March 30, 2011

    “First off, if NIO ever directly harms a student…”

    … the public outry is likely to be so loud that we won’t need to do vivisection with animals anymore. We’ll have NIO members to practice on.

    @sean michael

    cite please. Otherwise it’s just crap.

  8. #8 david
    March 30, 2011

    Case in point.

  9. #9 sean micheal
    March 30, 2011

    scared of the facts??

    i would be too.

    hahaha..citation for what?

  10. #10 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    Everything.

  11. #11 Composer99
    March 30, 2011

    sean michael:

    Nice try with the Gish Gallop.

    As Gray Falcon requested, please provide sources to support your claims.

    Otherwise, they will be treated as spurious garbage.

  12. #12 no excuse
    March 30, 2011

    Surgeons General claims that over 70% of disease is diet related. Humans continue to poison themselves and the environment. The side effects of our destructive lifestyle are cancer, diabetes, and other diseases. Instead of doing what’s logical, by eating healthy and cleaning up the environment, we continue to pump billions of tax payer dollars into research so the pharmaceutical industry can sell us drugs. Big pharma just wants to treat disease, not cure it.

    It’s inexcusable that other species must suffer for our own negligence.

  13. #13 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    Why should we believe you?

  14. #14 G.D.
    March 30, 2011

    I tried, Sean. I really did.

    3) Among the hundreds of techniques available instead of animal experiments, cell culture toxicology methods give accuracy rates of 80-85%

    You don’t have the faintest clue what you are talking about, do you?

    5) The two most common illnesses in the Western world are lung cancer from smoking and heart disease. Neither can be reproduced in lab animals.

    Are these the “facts” you are talking about?

    (Yes, I gave up. I would really like to see your sources as well – at least for those of your claims that aren’t purely anecdotal)

  15. #15 Leni
    March 30, 2011

    hahaha..citation for what?

    Jesus christ.

    He doesn’t even know what a citation is, does he?

  16. #16 sean micheal
    March 30, 2011

    I never post on blogs, and I never knew that was a rule in the “blogging community”

    If I could supply a name for every FACT would it make a difference?

    i’m not here to debate..

    just know..we’re done asking nicely, there’s more of us than you think, and we are watching EVERYTHING!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4-PU5EGp9A

    http://www.all-creatures.org/saen/articles.html

  17. #17 Gray falcon
    March 30, 2011

    If I could supply a name for every FACT would it make a difference?

    Yes, then we could check them to see. You still haven’t given us any reason to trust you.

    i’m not here to debate..

    You posted a long series of claims. That’s like making catcalls at someone’s girlfriend and saying you weren’t looking for a fight.

    just know..we’re done asking nicely, there’s more of us than you think, and we are watching EVERYTHING!

    Just know this. There are those of us who believe in love and justice, and the wicked like Tajalli will not stand.

  18. #18 Taradiddles
    March 30, 2011

    @#5 25)Thousands of safe products cause birth defects in lab animals – including water

    How would you ever prove that?

  19. #19 Blasphemous_Kansan
    March 30, 2011

    Copy/pasting the first 3 points of Sean’s list into google brings up as the first hit an interesting (citation-free) PDF. You can see by clicking my name.

    I wouldn’t ask Sean any specific questions for citations, as it seems likely that commenters who actually know how to think critically have read the list more closely than he has.

  20. #20 cairne.morane
    March 30, 2011

    “there’s more of us than you think”

    Good. We’ll need a decent sized pool. Do you breed well?

  21. #21 Orac
    March 30, 2011

    never post on blogs, and I never knew that was a rule in the “blogging community”

    Well, when you do a dump of 33 different assertions and statements without any citations or sources to back them up and allow us to evaluate whether these statements have any scientific validity, expect to be called out for it. Please provide references for those 33 assertions.

    If I could supply a name for every FACT would it make a difference?

    It depends. Who cares who said these things? Opinions are like proverbial assholes, everybody has one. What I care about are facts, but those facts have to be backed up by science. So far, you haven’t been able to do that. All you’ve done is cut and paste a regurgitated list of quotes and factoids that very much resemble the regurgitated lists of quotes and factoids that creationists, anti-vaccine loons, anthropogenic global warming denialists, and all manner of other cranks like to vomit into discussions as though it’s compelling evidence.

    i’m not here to debate..

    That much is painfully obvious. If you are here to debate, you’re getting your ass kicked. Badly.

  22. #22 Blasphemous_Kansan
    March 30, 2011

    Clarification to #19: The list that Sean references is citation-free. There are, indeed, some citations elsewhere in the document.

  23. #23 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    March 30, 2011

    Sean Michael,

    So what are you proposing when you say “BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY” and “we’re done asking nicely”? Should we read those as threats of violence? Considering that threats of violence are criminal offences, should we be collecting evidence?

    Just curious.

    Oh, and in a science-based blog it’s well accepted that any claims should be backed up by evidence. Anecdotes are interesting, but may be misleading. Overly vague comments will tend to be challenged as well, as a very accurate and specific claim can be generalized to be entirely unsupportable.

  24. #24 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    Question: Is it possible to bring civil suit against someone for inciting violence? I’ve heard of similar things done to white supremacist groups.

  25. #25 Kichae
    March 30, 2011

    @sean michael

    i’m not here to debate..

    You just stepped up to the plate, bat in hand, helmet on head, and took a few wild swings. When the umpire shouted “Strike three! You’re out!” you kicked dirt at him and said “I’m not here to play baseball!”

    You just walked onto the track, ran for half a lap, fell flat on your face, and then told the laughing crowd “I’m not here to race!”

    You just made a fool of yourself by blindly pasting unsolicited and unsubstantiated tripe, and when you got called on it you whined about how you’re not here to actually discuss the points and issues you brought forth.

    What’s the matter, SM? Don’t have the brains, the guts, or the integrity to actually stand by your claims and attempt to change peoples minds? If you’re right you should be able to show everyone that you’re right.

    Why can’t you?

  26. #26 sean micheal
    March 30, 2011

    @Gray…is this the love and justice you support????

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VptcoNU4YsE

    can everybody on here defend this video???

    could you even finish this video??

    vivisectors are the TRUE terrorists!

  27. #28 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    If you’re truly out for justice, Mr. Micheal, why aren’t you in Bangkok, dealing with animal smugglers? Or Kenya, fighting poachers? Why are you only threatening college professors by proxy instead of taking on organized crime head on? What have you truly accomplished, Mr. Micheal?

  28. #29 Lawrence
    March 30, 2011

    Wow – who knew we’d get an entirely new troll out of this.

  29. #30 Raging Bee
    March 30, 2011

    i’m not here to debate..

    No, you’re here to make asinine unsubstantiated claims to justify terrorism and then run away.

    vivisectors are the TRUE terrorists!

    And so another AR idiot tries to justify terrorism.

  30. #31 david
    March 30, 2011

    The worse part about groups like this and people like our esteemed troll Sean here. Is the topic gets painted as us vs. them.
    When in reality most of my fellow scientists love animals and would like to see as little harm come to them as possible. How many of us got into the sciences due to our love of nature?

  31. #32 Orac
    March 30, 2011

    BTW, everyone, Dr. Jay thinks I’m “despicable” for posting the Mitchell and Webb clip above:

    http://twitter.com/#!/JayGordonMDFAAP/status/53196602768232449

    Of course, Dr. Jay doesn’t mention that I used that video in the context of castigating animal rights terrorists who intimidated a college girl into “recanting” through an abusive campaign of harassment and fear. Dr. Jay doesn’t mention any of that. Oh, no. He’s clutching his pearls over a comedy routine that mocks the logic of the animal rights loons by portraying a “human rights” activist getting ready to set a stuffed dog on fire.

    Why do you hate young college students, Dr. Jay?

  32. #33 Dangerous Bacon
    March 30, 2011

    A quick run through Sean’s list reveals obvious irrelevancies and inaccuracies – like the one about “rodents never get carcinomas”.

    Of course they do, and a cursory Google search will confirm it.

    If animal research was as irrelevant and ineffective as Sean’s Gish-galloped list would indicate, then there’d be grounds for blasting scientists for employing it. If Sean exerted himself beyond cutting and pasting a list from an “anti-vivisectionist” web site, he could learn something important about the major contributions to human (and animal) health from such research – at the very least he’d obtain accurate information he could use to proselytize more effectively for his cause than he has done so far.

  33. #34 Orac
    March 30, 2011

    Of course they do, and a cursory Google search will confirm it.

    Indeed. Mice get mouse mammary carcinoma, for one.

  34. #35 sean micheal
    March 30, 2011

    *YAWN*

    killing and torturing animals is wrong anyway you look at it. I could careless if it’s in the name of science.

    Could any of you inject a beagle puppy with harmful drugs??

    I bet most of you couldn’t even sit in on a animal testing session without losing your fucking minds.

    You guys just hide behind computers, and talk..and talk..and talk. How many of you have been to a pro-vivisection ralley? or a protest against people like me?? or a protest against the ALF??

    none of you!! because you sit on blogs all day, and talk.

    we know our targets, the rest of you are just toys.

  35. #36 jenbphillips
    March 30, 2011

    He’s clutching his pearls over a comedy routine that mocks the logic of the animal rights loons by portraying a “human rights” activist getting ready to set a stuffed dog on fire.

    and I see that he conveniently forgo to mention that it was a *stuffed* dog. Sounds a lot more like a dog whistle than a tweet to my ear.

    Sigh. Should we prepare for company?

  36. #37 Chris
    March 30, 2011

    And, Mr. Michael, you have evidence of what we are? Or are you just blowing more smoke when it was revealed you are just a parrot doing a copy/paste of stuff you do not understand?

    The general rule on a science blog is that you must support your claims, or it will be assumed you made them up out of thin air.

  37. #38 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    And we’ll keep talking, until you break. So, tell me, what have you truly accomplished, Mr. Micheal?

  38. #39 Raging Bee
    March 30, 2011

    I bet most of you couldn’t even sit in on a animal testing session without losing your fucking minds.

    And you base this on what experience?

    we know our targets, the rest of you are just toys.

    Exactly: you don’t care about morality, suffering, or any creature’s rights; all you care about is punishing, vilifying, and destroying others with impunity. Thanks for once again clarifying the ARAs’ mindset. You can fuck off to bed now.

  39. #40 Kevin
    March 30, 2011

    Sean: Would I inject a beagle with dangerous drugs?

    Absofuckinglutely. If it meant that I didn’t have to test that dangerous drug first on my grandmother who was suffering from cancer. Or my 4-year-old daughter.

    What about you? Are you willing to risk your daughter’s life on a drug that wasn’t tested at all until it was given to a human being?

    Your answer, I suspect, will be bullshit.

  40. #41 lilady
    March 30, 2011

    Just a suggestion; I wonder if these bullies would be willing to subject themselves to a test. I propose that groups of them tear themselves away from the picket line and draw the ultimate “moral line in the sand”, by their refusal to use any licensed medicine or medical procedure that was tested using animal models. Midnight raids on medical laboratories, refusal to wear leather, woolen and silk clothing and vegan diet is so passe. And, harassing medical students is tacky and criminal.

    Just a few guidelines, no minors allowed, and no use of an analog of a medicine which was originally tested on laboratory animal models.

    Now, if they would behave themselves and have some folks who really know how to read medical journals that are not available on the internet, they could go to a teaching hospital associated with State Universities, just like I did, years ago..before the internet. I think they would find that every modern medical procedure and surgery was researched using animal models.

    The Physician’s Desk Reference (PDR) is available for purchase as well ($ 59.95 2011 edition) to see if any prescribed medication is available that meets their strict “moral line in the sand” criteria. Substitutes for animal tested before licensing medicines are available at homeopathy practitioners and at nutrition stores.

    I guess the only medical procedure they would ever undergo is tooth extraction, with ether or chloroform…I don’t believe these anesthetics were tested on animals.

  41. #42 Militant Agnostic
    March 30, 2011

    Why do you hate young college students, Dr. Jay?

    Because they already know more than he does?

  42. #43 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    March 30, 2011

    Sean Michael,
    Is killing animals really wrong any way you look at it? Is it wrong to kill an elderly or seriously injured animal? Is it wrong to kill an animal in self defense? Is it wrong to kill an animal for food? Is it wrong to kill one by accident? Is it wrong to kill one that spreads disease? Is it wrong to kill one that has a history of biting people? Is there a lower size limit – is it OK to swat a fly, for instance, but not a newt? Or bacteria, mites, and fleas deserve protection from being killed by people?
    If these things are wrong, exactly why is that?

  43. #44 squirrelelite
    March 30, 2011

    @ilady,

    Also, no hot air ballooning, either.

    That was first tested on animals.

  44. #45 LovleAnjel
    March 30, 2011

    I am so tempted to feed the new troll and start playing catch with him. Must…resist…

    OH he’s just so cute, I can’t resist!

    “I bet most of you couldn’t even sit in on a animal testing session without losing your fucking minds.

    “You guys just hide behind computers, and talk..and talk..and talk. How many of you have been to a pro-vivisection ralley? or a protest against people like me?? or a protest against the ALF??”

    I have been LAT I at a teaching hospital. I have taken care of animals with electrodes sticking out of their skulls. I have helped with post-surgical monitoring. I sit on my University’s IACUC, so I review all the animal protocols that run through here. I will never forget seeing the biologist who walked the hallways cradling a post-surgery pigeon as if she were trying to rock a baby to sleep. I remember the one researcher who cut corners on rat surgery and was thrown out of the facility, with a warning sent to other facilities to refuse him space. I remember the investigation that incident sparked throughout the facility and the increased monitoring by the state.

    I’ve done better then protested or attended rallies, I am the watchdog that prevents cruelty during testing.

  45. #46 Kevin
    March 30, 2011

    @40…au contraire…ether and chloroform were definitely tested first on animals.

    BTW: even nutraceuticals, cosmetics, and cosmeceuticals that claim to not have been tested on animals have had their ingredients tested on animals. Every single one of them. Ever since about 1938, I believe.

    So, no vitamins, no face cream, no nothing.

    Nor eye drops, or contact lens solution. What, you want to BLIND yourself by putting something in your eye that hasn’t been tested? (On nice fluffy bunnies, to be precise.)

  46. #47 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    March 30, 2011

    I’m also curious about the code of ethics that declares killing an animal wrong “any way you look at it” but car bombs are OK.

  47. #48 sean micheal
    March 30, 2011

    to address a couple of things..

    threats?? collect all the evidence you want. who did I threat?

    troll?? not even close, this is fun for me. I knew what I was getting into when i posted on a science blog.

    I’m a above ground activist I don’t get involved in anything illegal, but you can find me protesting in front of David Jentsch, and Edith London’s house once a month, or protesting at fortress investments which loaned HLS 60 million dollars. I can’t get any closer to front lines in the above ground movement WE ARE TAKING IT HEAD ON!

    @gray..I made a threat against a professor?? please show me where that took place.

  48. #49 LovleAnjel
    March 30, 2011

    @ 46

    I guess humans aren’t animals, so it’s okay.

  49. #50 Raging Bee
    March 30, 2011

    I bet most of you couldn’t even sit in on a animal testing session without losing your fucking minds.

    And you base this on what experience?

    we know our targets, the rest of you are just toys.

    Exactly: you don’t care about morality, suffering, or any creature’s rights; all you care about is punishing, vilifying, and destroying others with impunity. Thanks for once again clarifying the ARAs’ mindset.

  50. #51 Poodle Stomper
    March 30, 2011

    I bet most of you couldn’t even sit in on a animal testing session without losing your fucking minds.

    I can and do so routinely. I think that your perception of animal testing involves only slicing and dicing (followed by evil cackling and hand rubbing…maybe some lightning for effects).

    I hope for your sake then that you plan to never use any sort of medical advancement as many of them have first been tested on animals. I also hope you don’t have any little ALFers that are diabetic and rely on potentially animal-derived insulin (and as for recombinant insulin, E. coli is a living being too).

    I hope you don’t vaccinate your cats against FLV or plan on getting a rabies vaccine if one of your furry friends bites you because those evil vaccines are tested on animals!!!!

  51. #52 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    @gray..I made a threat against a professor?? please show me where that took place.

    You never even managed that? Well, then what have you managed to do?

  52. #53 Kichae
    March 30, 2011

    troll?? not even close, this is fun for me. I knew what I was getting into when i posted on a science blog

    Apparently you didn’t. If you’re having fun, you’re trolling. Perhaps you should actually look into what things mean before addressing them.

    Oh, wait, I forgot. Not your style. That requires actually reading what’s before you, rather than just blindly copying and pasting it.

  53. #54 Narad
    March 30, 2011

    ether and chloroform were definitely tested first on animals

    Perhaps you’d like to back this claim up.

  54. #55 sean micheal
    March 30, 2011

    @kevin,

    so you would give something to your 4 year old girl, because it was tested on a dog?!?!?!

    amazing.

    and then you have to sue, because she dies. krama is a bitch.

  55. #56 sean micheal
    March 30, 2011

    and sorry if i’m not up to date on my online lingo, i thought a troll was somebody everybody picked on. like i said, i don’t hang out online talking shit…seems like you guys do this a lot.

    nerds.

  56. #57 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    and then you have to sue, because she dies. krama is a bitch.

    Which is why lifespan and infant mortality have dropped so much in the last century. No wait… they’ve improved significantly! Thank you, modern medicine! So, what have you got going for you?

  57. #58 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    Let me rephrase #56:
    Which is why lifespan dropped and infant mortality has increased so much in the last century. No wait… it’s the other way around! Thank you, modern medicine! So, what have you got going for you?

  58. #59 Composer99
    March 30, 2011

    like i said, i don’t hang out online talking shit

    … says the guy who can’t seem to resist returning here to hang out online talking shit.

  59. #60 sean micheal
    March 30, 2011

    The sad thing is there’s child rapists, and murderers sitting in prison right now who had the choice of taking the right or wrong path. If you want accurate test results test on criminals not animals.

  60. #61 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    March 30, 2011

    threats?? collect all the evidence you want. who did I threat?

    So the answer to my question “Should we read those as threats of violence?” is “no”. Thanks for the clarification.

    Can you answer the question ‘So what are you proposing when you say “BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY” and “we’re done asking nicely”? ‘?

  61. #62 Chris
    March 30, 2011

    sean michael:

    If you want accurate test results test on criminals not animals.

    That has been done. There were also tests on disabled children (Willowbrook and elsewhere), plus poor black people. There is something called bio-ethics that you might want to actually read up on. Todd W. wrote a good historical summary, and a link to the Belmont report here <— that is a link, click on it!

  62. #63 lilady
    March 30, 2011

    @ Kevin and Narad: Then there’s always 200 proof ethanol for tooth extraction…or psychic surgery…or faith healing.

    @ Sean Michael: You have a “Teabag Party” in London…or is it a “Loose English Breakfast Tea Party”?

  63. #64 Azkyroth
    March 30, 2011

    As most people here I believe that animals should be treated as humanly as possible whilst using animals in the most efficient smallest number that will provide useful results and only in situations where the animal as a model has been shown to be accurate and reliable. I also support research to finding alternatives to animal testing.

    Err, how do you have this to show when you’re proposing to use animals, if you have to show it in order to use animals?

    If you reformulated it in terms of requiring sound reasoning supporting the expected efficacy of the animal model in question, and a commitment to abandoning models that have been shown to be faulty in similar applications, this would make more sense.

    But my understanding is that, at least in this country, those standards are in place pretty much across the board for animal research already.

  64. #65 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    March 30, 2011

    @lilady,
    I’m fairly sure that ethanol was tested on animals…

    Which seems like such a waste.

  65. #66 sean micheal
    March 30, 2011

    “ANY MEANS NECESSARY” can mean a number of things, for me it means do whatever it takes as long as I follow the law, I can’t speak for the underground, because i don’t know any of them..nor do i want to, but let make this clear…THEY ARE THE TRUE HEROES OF OUR MOVEMENT.

  66. #67 Raging Bee
    March 30, 2011

    sean: first you tried to tell us that animal testing was unreliable; now you’re saying we should test certain classes of humans instead? Do you have evidence that such testing would get us reliable results?

    The stupidity of the ARAs is matched only by their dishonesty. And vastly exceeded by their uncontrollable bloodlust.

  67. #68 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    So, do you support them or not? And the true heroes of animal welfare include the people in China going after the gangs poaching endangered species for traditional medicine.

  68. #69 Azkyroth
    March 30, 2011

    Question: Is it possible to bring civil suit against someone for inciting violence? I’ve heard of similar things done to white supremacist groups.

    I’m not a lawyer, but as I understand it behavior that leaves a specific target credibly fearing immediate violence is a criminal offense.

  69. #70 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    March 30, 2011

    So you, yourself, don’t break the law but you worship those who do.
    Not judging, just clarifying.

  70. #71 Narad
    March 30, 2011

    Then there’s always 200 proof ethanol for tooth extraction…or psychic surgery…or faith healing.

    Indeed. My point to Kevin was that general anesthesia was certainly discovered based on the human-reportable effects of the agents. I presume the stories of the “testing” of chloroform and nitrous oxide are similar to those surrounding ether.

  71. #73 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    March 30, 2011

    @lilady,
    FWIW, 200 proof ethanol typically contains harmful amounts of benzene since without it you can’t distill ethanol past about 190 proof (the ethanol and water vaporize at the same rate at that concentration, so the vapors are no more concentrated than the solution). Of course, there may be a means to produce high proof ethanol without distillation that I’m not aware of.

  72. #74 CG
    March 30, 2011

    Okay sean.

    Now tell us how you find a population of criminals that is largely clonal. Limiting genetic variability is extremely important.

    Also, how do we make gene knockouts in criminals? How do we make transgenic criminals?

    What you are proposing will destroy pretty much all modern developmental research. Mice are used because they are mammals that are actually genetically tractable.

  73. #75 Kichae
    March 30, 2011

    and sorry if i’m not up to date on my online lingo, i thought a troll was somebody everybody picked on.

    You’re totally unaware of what’s going on here right now, aren’t you?

    like i said, i don’t hang out online talking shit…

    No? I guess you’re actually hang gliding in the Alps right now, eh?

    nerds.

    Come on, Sean, grow some testicles, pump some testosterone, and be a man. Or at least go talk to some 25 year old deadbeat meatheads who still think they’re in the 6th grade. Get some real insults. What’s next? Going to call everyone “nancies”, “women”, or “ghey”? “Pencil neck geeks” is old enough to be cool again. Go on, you can do it, Sean. I know you can. Or just go back to your good old friend McGoogle there. After all, there are a lot of grade school calibur insults for you to plagiarize on the internet. You’re just a few more copy/pastes away from Awesometown, friend.

    “ANY MEANS NECESSARY” can mean a number of things, for me it means do whatever it takes as long as I follow the law, I can’t speak for the underground, because i don’t know any of them..nor do i want to, but let make this clear…THEY ARE THE TRUE HEROES OF OUR MOVEMENT.

    After all, it’s not illegal to incite others to violence. There’s nothing wrong with telling someone they’d BE A HERO if they threatened people you disagree with and their families.

    You’re a coward, Sean, plain and simple. You can’t defend your ideas, you can’t defend your principles, but you’re willing to sacrifice the health and safety of those you disagree with and the freedom of a few unbalanced sociopaths (who you then offer up for medical testing, no less).

    And for what? Some unsupported one liners you ripped off the internet?

    Real nice, Sean. The underground’s got a real friend in you.

  74. #76 zero
    March 30, 2011

    Be a hero? I think it would be better if they were AN HERO if you know what I mean.

  75. #77 sean micheal
    March 30, 2011

    Worship? you guys are so concerned with citations you should get your facts straight…I said they’re HEROES, not gods.

    Oh, and yes, I do support their beliefs, Although i will never act upon them. Like I said, i’m a above ground activist.

  76. #78 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    They are not heroes, heroes don’t go around threatening the innocent. They are monsters, and if they act on their threats, they will face a response that will awe angels in its righteousness and terrify demons in its fury.

  77. #79 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    March 30, 2011

    You’ve not heard the term “hero worship” before? This was the context I was using the term in.
    I stand corrected. You approve of their beliefs and actions, but would not act illegally yourself.

  78. #80 JohnW
    March 30, 2011

    Most of Sean’s Big List Of Silly (#5) is taken apart here: http://speakingofresearch.com/extremism-undone/bad-science/

    The usual kook tactics: quotemining, misrepresentation, innumeracy, and good old making shit up.

  79. #81 sean micheal
    March 30, 2011

    I don’t mind spending this day online with you guys.

    It’s kind of cute.

    I really don’t mind all this talk, I find it intresting, and I really love reading all these comments, but like i said..we know our targets, the rest of you are just toys that love to show how big and bad they can be on the internet. *yawn*

  80. #82 timgueguen
    March 30, 2011

    Promoting animal rights is in fact speciesist. It holds humans to a higher standard of behaviour towards animals than other animals practice towards each other. If humans are just another animal like others then any action we take towards other animals should be acceptable.

  81. #83 Heliantus
    March 30, 2011

    @ CG

    Now tell us how you find a population of criminals that is largely clonal.

    I was about to suggest to use only twin inmates. Or maybe brothers, if one feel not too picky. Are the Dalton brothers still around?

    I could also mention that hardened criminals are famous for collecting nasty habits, like drug abuse, and getting their share of nasty diseases, including AIDS.
    Not just criminals, to be fair. It’s the lot of all humanity to, well, have a life.
    But how to be accurate with test subjects who are a smorgasbord of lifestyles and medical conditions?

  82. #84 sean michael
    March 30, 2011

    I couldn’t be underground even if I wanted to, I model for a living, I have 3 story billboard in Times Square, and in Paris, it would be hard breaking the law when you’re face is posted everywhere already.

  83. #85 altın çilek
    March 30, 2011

    I was about to suggest to use only twin inmates. Or maybe brothers, if one feel not too picky. Are the Dalton brothers still around?

  84. #86 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    I couldn’t be underground even if I wanted to, I model for a living, I have 3 story billboard in Times Square, and in Paris, it would be hard breaking the law when you’re face is posted everywhere already.

    Yes, just keep telling yourself you’ve managed to do something worthwhile in life. What have you accomplished?

  85. #87 Chris
    March 30, 2011

    He has worn pretty clothes and lets others look at him. He must think that is pretty worthwhile.

  86. #88 DLC
    March 30, 2011

    He’s through kidding around, he’s done asking nicely, now he’s going to spam unsubstantiated nonsense and throw hissy fits on the innertoobs, which he never posts to, because he’s a famous model. Right. line up next to Jay Gordon over there.

    He can’t speak for teh unnerground, but he just knows they’re gonna DO SOMETHING Some Day!

    And : Mitchel & Webb have it right. burn the stuffed animals!

  87. #89 sean michael
    March 30, 2011

    Modeling doesn’t define me, and i’m a very small piece in a big puzzle. As a movement we’ve done too much to list, but let’s start with getting Huntingdon Life Sciences kicked off the NYSE and LSE.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUGs7lTwme4

  88. #90 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    Interesting. Were any lives saved? Any endangered species protected? Anything accomplished besides a PR move?

  89. #91 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    I read about that case. You intimidated and threatened people, caused great damage, disrupted valuable research, and the company’s still around and still testing. It was not the work of heroes, it was the work of thugs.

  90. #92 lilady
    March 30, 2011

    @ Sean Michael: I haven’t done any hero-worshiping in a long time and when I did hero-worship it was a harmless activity such as rock star idolizing.

    Here’s a real website for you: “About Us/SUBR National” It is States United For Biological Research, an association that really does some excellent work to monitor laboratories that use animal models for research and provides educational programs devoted to pet care. Also view their section “How Animals Help Us” for information about research conducted for “people diseases.”

    Sean, how do you think pet medicine and pet vaccines were developed? I would think you would be in favor of lab animal research for vaccines that prevent animal parvovirus infection, distemper, feline leukemia virus and rabies. Also think about pet medication that his been developed for hookworms and roundworms and animal tick collars…using laboratory animal models.

  91. #93 sean michael
    March 30, 2011

    why does it have to be a endangered species?? I feel ALL species have a right to live without torture and suffering.

    right now we’re focusing on vivisectors, maybe if I lived Africa, or China we would take on poachers, but I live in L.A.

    is there any one that lives in L.A. that wants to come debate at a animal liberation forum on the UCSLB campus?? april 17-20th

  92. #94 sean michael
    March 30, 2011

    somebody explain all of this please.

    http://www.all-creatures.org/saen/articles.html

  93. #95 lilady
    March 30, 2011

    These are the people that Sean Michael “hero-worships”:

    Mail online: “Animal activists who launched smear campaign branding paedophiles and murderers are jailed”.

  94. #96 Ken
    March 30, 2011

    I think Sean is missing the obvious solution. Has anyone read “Babycakes” by Neil Gaiman? (There’s copies around the web, but I don’t know if they’re legal so I’m not going to include a link.)

  95. #97 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    Interesting. All the same lies and propaganda as before. And if you think using prisoners as test subjects is acceptable, you have no right to speak on ethics or morals. Science has accomplished quite a bit thanks to animal testing, and all you’ve managed to do is sink to new lows of cruelty.

  96. #98 DuWayne
    March 30, 2011

    sean michael –

    Oh, and yes, I do support their beliefs, Although i will never act upon them. Like I said, i’m a above ground activist.

    Just a bunch of words that come out to mean “I am a coward.”

    You use absolute phrases like “any means necessary,” then pretend that it means something else. I absolutely loathe goddamned terrorists, but pathetic little parasites like yourself are worse – you advocate for and rhetorically support the violence, knowing you’re too afraid to actually engage in such activities yourself. It is interesting to me, that the more insulated and withdrawn AR fanatics get, the heavier the violence they advocate.

    And for the record, though I am a geek and proud of it, I would love to be an out and out nerd.

  97. #99 sean michael
    March 30, 2011

    This is why i’ll never have kids, I can’t believe there’s people like you willing to protect muderers, and rapists from testing, but you’re all for torturing and killing animals.

    so backwards.

    YOU’RE PROTECTING KILLERS AND RAPISTS..DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU’RE SAYING? maybe it will take them getting to your kid before you change your mind. All this people need to be exterminated.

    yes, test on murderers and rapists!!

  98. #100 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    There aren’t that many murderers and rapists out there. If we tested on criminals, we’d end up having to move on to political dissidents to get enough test subjects. I suggest you consider the logistics of yours suggestions as well as the ethics.

    Oh, an animal testing, at least, creates some good from its results. There are people out there who would happily have species hunted to extinction just to drive up the price of its parts. Why aren’t you admiring the people who take them down? Are you simply reveling in what’s edgy? The animal rights terrorists crossed the edge, they are now in the area called pure evil, and have burned down any means of return.

  99. #101 sean michael
    March 30, 2011

    @duwayne, if you’re ever in the LA area i’ll give you my address, and we’ll see who cowards down. I’ve engaged in violence plenty of times, just not against vivisectors.

  100. #102 Andy
    March 30, 2011

    Fine, sean. Test on murderers and rapists. What other dregs of society to you believe to be subhuman? We could take a poll. I could find a bunch of people who think we should test on illegal immigrants. Or on poor people. Or on rich people. Or on animal rights activists. I’m sure that if I polled 100 people, I could bring every person in the world into that fold.

    Believing that we should test on human beings, even ones we don’t like, to save animals is sociopathic.

  101. #103 herr doktor bimler
    March 30, 2011

    i’m not here to debate..

    Feel free to fuck off then.

  102. #104 Kristen
    March 30, 2011

    Wow, unhinged much?

    I have read the thread and I can’t help but think “Sean” is a young teen. The know everything attitude and hissy fits along with the pseudo-condescending tone gives him/her away.

    There is nothing that could justify this level of hypocrisy. If these people are “heros” to Sean than he/she is one sick person.

    And advocating for mass slaughter of a subset of society, really? Will you be volunteering to murder these people yourself? You know, for the greater good? Oh, yeah, I forgot; you are a coward. You just want somebody else to do the dirty work, wouldn’t want to get blood on your pretty hands.

  103. #105 sean michael
    March 30, 2011

    wow! now we’re putting illegal immigrants, and murderers in the same category?? you don’t see the difference between the two

    these are people that have KILLED! are you guys serious right now???

  104. #106 herr doktor bimler
    March 30, 2011

    Oddly enough, Google does not reveal the existence of any “Sean Michael” commenting on animal rights except in this single thread. Looks like some /b/tard found the list of 33 made-up figures in a vegan tract (as pointed out by Blasphemous_Kansan @ #19) and is plagiarising it to yank our chain.

  105. #107 Chris
    March 30, 2011

    sean michael:

    YOU’RE PROTECTING KILLERS AND RAPISTS..DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU’RE SAYING?

    Yes. Even the ones who are actually innocent:

    Texas has freed 41 wrongly convicted inmates through DNA since 2001 — more than any other state.

    Do you think it is fair to test on these wrongfully imprisoned persons, especially since most of them (like the general prison population) are minorities? Are you racist, or just simply stupid?

  106. #108 sean michael
    March 30, 2011

    you think I would use my real name??

    yes, i’ll volunteer for the mass slaughter of killers, and rapists with no hesitation. can we throw vivisectors and Michael Vick in there too?

  107. #109 zero
    March 30, 2011

    Aren’t most prisoners in the US minorities? Why does the word Tuskegee keep popping up in my head…hrm…weird.

  108. #110 Raging Bee
    March 30, 2011

    There are people out there who would happily have species hunted to extinction just to drive up the price of its parts. Why aren’t you admiring the people who take them down?

    For the same reason he’ll never take on bikers for wearing leather: beneath all the uncompromising righteouensss and fake concern for animals, he’s a pathetic little coward who really doesn’t care enough about animals to take on people who really will fight back, or even leave his white suburban comfort-zone. He wants soft targets, not people with guns and/or real attitude — even though the latter are actually killing more animals than the former.

  109. #111 sean michael
    March 30, 2011

    fine chris,anybody convicted of murder or rape by DNA evidence should be tested on.

    better?

  110. #112 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    fine chris,anybody convicted of murder or rape by DNA evidence should be tested on.

    better?

    That would give us maybe a tenth of a percent of the people we’d need, and most of them wouldn’t have the right qualities. As Vaarsuvius once put that: “That is reprehensible, vile, disgusting, and highly impractical given our current situation.”

  111. #113 herr doktor bimler
    March 30, 2011

    anybody convicted of murder or rape by DNA evidence

    DNA testing — TESTED ON ANIMALS.

  112. #114 RAging Bee
    March 30, 2011

    Also, the prison population is overwhelmingly male, so medicines and medical procedures aimed at women’s health concerns wouldn’t get enough testing.

  113. #115 Science Mom
    March 30, 2011

    BTW, everyone, Dr. Jay thinks I’m “despicable” for posting the Mitchell and Webb clip above:
    http://twitter.com/#!/JayGordonMDFAAP/status/53196602768232449

    Of course, Dr. Jay doesn’t mention that I used that video in the context of castigating animal rights terrorists who intimidated a college girl into “recanting” through an abusive campaign of harassment and fear. Dr. Jay doesn’t mention any of that. Oh, no. He’s clutching his pearls over a comedy routine that mocks the logic of the animal rights loons by portraying a “human rights” activist getting ready to set a stuffed dog on fire.

    Do you expect anything less from an intellectually dishonest, scientifically-illiterate “target” who was recently handed his ass (yet again) on your “despicable” blog?

  114. #116 sean michael
    March 30, 2011

    you’re right..i’ll never take on a 200 pound biker, i’m 6’1″ 133 pounds. I have thrown punches for dumping red wine on a girls fur coat, and i have thrown punches for talking shit on a dudes leather jacket.

    I pick my battles…if it’s a fair fight i’ll engage, but i’m not stupid.

  115. #117 Chris
    March 30, 2011

    Sean, you would look less like a fool if you actually clicked on the links and read them. Those are the words that are in blue text, and when you have the mouse of them the little arrow turns into a hand (depending on your computer settings).

    Real life is not like what is on television or the movies, it is a bit more complicated.

    Raging Bee, yes, exactly! Especially since the majority of rapists and murderers are male. Pretty useless in researching breast cancer, premature births, etc.

  116. #118 herr doktor bimler
    March 30, 2011

    you think I would use my real name??

    Why not? You offered to provide your address to anyone visiting LA.
    Or if you cared enough about animal testing to comment about it under a pseudonym elsewhere, I’d expect you to use the same pseudonym here.

  117. #119 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    For the same reason he’ll never take on bikers for wearing leather: beneath all the uncompromising righteouensss and fake concern for animals, he’s a pathetic little coward who really doesn’t care enough about animals to take on people who really will fight back, or even leave his white suburban comfort-zone. He wants soft targets, not people with guns and/or real attitude — even though the latter are actually killing more animals than the former.

    He never even spoke a word of admiration for those who do act against the real criminals. Maybe idolizing international police officers goes against the pseudo-anarchist “I’d never survive without an organized society but I’ll complain about it anyway” image he’s cultivating.

  118. #120 dedicated lurker
    March 30, 2011

    Could any of you inject a beagle puppy with harmful drugs??

    Animal shelter workers do that every day, dumbass. And they love animals. There’s a whole horrible world of things resulting from the concept that pets are disposable. Are you doing anything about that?

    For the record, I dissected a dead cat in one of my biology courses, and it was not entirely comfortable, but I reminded myself that cats die in animal shelters every day because people can’t be bothered to spay or neuter. (I also named the cat “Fluffy” and spoke to it like it was still alive, as in “Fluffy, sorry, but I have to cut through your abdominal muscles now.” Morbid humor helps.)

  119. #121 DuWayne
    March 30, 2011

    sean michaels -

    …if you’re ever in the LA area i’ll give you my address, and we’ll see who cowards down.

    You couldn’t pay me enough to go to that pit that is LA and if I were to go, the last thing I would have any interest in, is playing fisticuffs with pathetic little cowards like you. There are different ways of being a coward and it is your cowering fear of the consequences of actually standing up to your word that I am commenting on.

    you think I would use my real name??

    I use mine. But then, I am not a pathetic little coward, unwilling to stand up to his words.

    Of course, I would be rather keen on anonymity if I were advocating the sick bullshit you are advocating here.

  120. #122 sean michael
    March 30, 2011

    the only link i haven’t clicked on is that stupid dr. jay thing, and i only offered one person on this thread my address. make sure you read before you comment.

  121. #123 Another DuWayne
    March 30, 2011

    I am DuWayne! Give me your address!!!

  122. #124 Composer99
    March 30, 2011

    sean michael comments:

    [...] i’m not stupid.

    This thread is, I dare say, proof of the contrary.

    Giving sean michael the benefit of the doubt and assuming his claims to be a model are accurate, this makes twice in as many weeks where Respectful Insolence has played host to visitors from the arts suffering from severe cases of Dunning-Kruger.

    As a semi-pro musician, I feel like it’s time for the paper grocery bag mask.

  123. #125 LW
    March 30, 2011

    Well, after that bit by Dr. Gordon, I don’t see any reason to pay any attention to his bleatings on this site about “civility”. Every time I think that I could not have more contempt for him, he proves me wrong.

  124. #126 herr doktor bimler
    March 30, 2011

    If DuWayne knows Sean’s address, we all know it.
    It is how the hivemind works.

  125. #127 Chris
    March 30, 2011

    sean michael:

    the only link i haven’t clicked on is that stupid dr. jay thing,

    Well, it looks like you had trouble reading them. You still look foolish.

  126. #128 LW
    March 30, 2011

    We are the Midwich Cuckoos.

  127. #129 Militant Agnostic
    March 30, 2011

    these are people that have KILLED!

    As Chris pointed out in #105, not necessarily.

    Guy-Paul Morin, David Milgard, Stephen Sophonow, the ghost of Donald Marshall, and the various victims of that nitwit coroner in Ontario would like to have a word with you.

  128. #130 Poodle Stomper
    March 30, 2011

    We need to translate from troll to English. Here goes:

    you’re right..i’ll never take on a 200 pound biker, i’m 6’1″ 133 pounds.

    I’m an obese thirty-something living in my mom’s basement.

    I have thrown punches for dumping red wine on a girls fur coat, and i have thrown punches for talking shit on a dudes leather jacket.

    I saw a tv show where some dudes threw punches. It looked cool.

    I pick my battles…if it’s a fair fight i’ll engage, but i’m not stupid

    OK, OK I’m stupid. If I could get up out of this chair I’d try to accomplish something with my life but my ass fused to it ages ago. Instead I’ll go on web sites and post about stuff of which I have no understanding and make it obvious to everyone but myself that I’m an ignorant douche.

    There. All clear everyone?

  129. #131 Militant Agnostic
    March 30, 2011

    I pick my battles…if it’s a fair fight i’ll engage, but i’m not stupid.

    I beg to differ.

  130. #132 Poodle Stomper
    March 30, 2011
  131. #133 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    March 30, 2011

    Sean Michael,
    According to a posting by Camille Merino, “Every time a vivisector’s car or home — and, eventually, the abuser him/herself — blows up, flames of liberation light up the sky.”
    The statement here seems very clear – she encourages murder. Since “blowing up” a car, home, or person tends to be non-specific, she apparently doesn’t care who else gets caught up in the explosion. As long as the “vivisectors” get the message, it doesn’t matter how many people or animals get hurt along with them.
    Now, this is a far cry from spilling wine on some starlet’s fur, or making phone calls to inconvenience a company, or challenging people to sham debates. We’re talking indiscriminate, wanton murder. This is the rhetoric and behavior you claim is from the “heroes of the movement”.
    Do you wonder why people might be a little touchy about that?
    You protest that YOU wouldn’t do that and perhaps you wouldn’t; I have to wonder what you would do to help Camille and her ilk actually carry out what they say they want to do. Will you console yourself by saying, “I abhor violence, but he had it coming” while you hold her coat?

  132. #134 Militant Agnostic
    March 30, 2011

    I pick my battles…if it’s a fair fight i’ll engage, but i’m not stupid.

    I beg to differ.

  133. #135 sean michael
    March 30, 2011

    If there’s ever a mass murder of vivisectors, i’m pretty sure it’s not going to come from anybody in the above ground movement, and heroes of the movement to me is the ALF which has a ZERO body count.

  134. #136 ababa
    March 30, 2011

    sean, I had a cheeseburger for lunch today, but I couldn’t finish it so I threw the rest into the garbage. Was that your friend, Bessie? Yummy, tasty beef!

  135. #137 Gray Falcon
    March 30, 2011

    If there’s ever a mass murder of vivisectors, i’m pretty sure it’s not going to come from anybody in the above ground movement, and heroes of the movement to me is the ALF which has a ZERO body count.

    First of all, associating with terrorists will likely get you arrested and interrogated. Secondly, encouraging violence will get you marked as the ringleaders, which may be even less pleasant. Finally, ALF having a zero body count simply means they’re not very good at being terrorists.

  136. #138 sean michael
    March 30, 2011

    wow, a meat joke.

    didn’t see that coming.

  137. #139 Composer99
    March 30, 2011

    sean michael @ 66:

    I can’t speak for the underground, because i don’t know any of them..nor do i want to, but let make this clear…THEY ARE THE TRUE HEROES OF OUR MOVEMENT.

    sean michael, hanging the TRUE HEROES out to dry @ 132:

    If there’s ever a mass murder of vivisectors, i’m pretty sure it’s not going to come from anybody in the above ground movement, and heroes of the movement to me is the ALF which has a ZERO body count.

    Do I detect the shifting of goalposts?

    Unless, of course, sean michael means the ALF are mere heroes while the violent underground movement remains the TRUE HEROES.

  138. #140 novalox
    March 30, 2011

    @131

    So you openly advocate and praise murder.

    Stay classy, troll. Stay classy.

  139. #141 Chris
    March 31, 2011

    Um, novalox, there is a reason I dislike just using the comment numbers. They are apparently quite fluid, and now you are accusing Militant Agnostic, when you meant sean.

  140. #142 Militant Agnostic
    March 31, 2011

    the ALF which has a ZERO body count

    So far and only if we do not look too deeply at the effects of hindering medical research. If ALF engages in arson (I don’t know if they have but ELF has), they are endangering the lives of firefighters.

  141. #143 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    an eye for an eye. If people want to take it to that level I really can’t blame them.

    If you make a living off the torture and death of animals people are going to be pissed. Just except it.

  142. #144 Janis
    March 31, 2011

    I am proud to say I am in the group NIO. That student Alene was not threatened with anything but for her story to be published. But what can you expect from vivisectors? They torture animals. Why wouldnt they lie? Most sociopaths are perfect liars. I am willing to bet most vivisectors are sociopaths and need psychiatric help. Your research in invalid. Animals do not react like humans do. I saw a study the other day whereby rats were tested to see if they like ejaculating. You people are a bunch of sick perverts

    I am proud to say I am in the group NIO. That student Alene was not threatened with anything but for her story to be published. But what can you expect from vivisectors? They torture animals. Why wouldnt they lie? Most sociopaths are perfect liars. I am willing to bet most vivisectors are sociopaths and need psychiatric help. Your research in invalid. Animals do not react like humans do. I saw a study the other day whereby rats were tested to see if they like ejaculating. You people are a bunch of sick perverts

  143. #145 Gray Falcon
    March 31, 2011

    Let me ask you something. If you really care about animals, why don’t you go to China and take on the animal smuggling rings, or poachers in Namibia? They’ve done far worse things than any animal researcher, on a far greater scale. Or are you only willing to fight someone you think won’t fight back?

  144. #146 Chris
    March 31, 2011

    Janis, could you please tell us if you would take antibiotics for a bacterial infection even though they were tested on animals?

    And sean, I checked the wiki timeline on ALF. You are correct, no humans were harmed despite their efforts. Though, they did manage to kill lots of animals (there are more, but I am limited to two links).

  145. #147 Composer99
    March 31, 2011

    So, not content to troll one post on Respectul Insolence, Janis comes and drops almost indistinguishable turgid BS on a second post on the same blog.

    Anyway, I thought the official story from NIO was that they had successfully “shut down vivisector-in-training” Alena Rodriguez; yet here we have Janis suggesting that despite Ms Rodriguez’s apparent denouncement of animal research (as NIO crowed about), she remains a ‘vivisector’.

  146. #148 Militant Agnostic
    March 31, 2011

    I am willing to bet most vivisectors are sociopaths and need psychiatric help.

    1. Citation Needed

    2. Project much?

    I saw a study the other day whereby rats were tested to see if they like ejaculating.

    Without a link we will assume that you are bullshitting.

    Please define vivisector and torture. You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

    You people are a bunch of sick perverts

    Like the misogynists at PETA?

  147. #149 Militant Agnostic
    March 31, 2011

    sean michael

    Just except it.

    What have you got against the English language?

  148. #150 Chris
    March 31, 2011

    Lisa, are you ever going to answer the question about antibiotics? I am cringing just thinking about bladder infections.

  149. #151 Chris
    March 31, 2011

    Oops, wrong person. Janis, would you have antibiotics for an infection, or just take your chances?

  150. #152 Narad
    March 31, 2011

    That student Alene was not threatened with anything but for her story to be published.

    No doubt you would be perfectly comfortable with the same treatment, Ms. Keller.

  151. #153 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    I caught that right after I posted.

    sue me.

    “accept it”

  152. #154 novalox
    March 31, 2011

    @Chris

    Whoops, sorry about that. Hopefully, Militant Agnostic doesn’t take too much offense at that.

    Meanwhile, the projection, ad hominems, lies, and genuinely unscientific thinking that the trolls are writing would make for good humor, except that the the violence that they espouse and wish to inflict on others makes them really worrisome.

  153. #155 Chris
    March 31, 2011

    Now, novalox, we have to figure out which comment was approved! I know I had two of mine go into the moderation queue, but I can’t remember which ones.

  154. #156 Andreas Johansson
    March 31, 2011

    Sean the brave model wrote:

    “ANY MEANS NECESSARY” can mean a number of things, for me it means do whatever it takes as long as I follow the law,

    No. It means you’re engaging in cheap intimidation tactics and are too chickenshit to own up even to that. You’re supposed to be a vertebrate: grow a goddamn spine!

  155. #157 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    you have no idea what I “engage” in.

    thanks

  156. #158 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    I’d like to reply to line #134…

    First of all, i have never associated with terrorists, and i don’t plan on it. Please show me where I said that. Second, please show me where I have encouraged violence anywhere on this blog. You’re so based on facts…right?? show me where all of this took place.

  157. #159 Pareidolius
    March 31, 2011

    Hey Zoolander, your spelling is the least of your problems . . . even if you are extremely GOODlooking. These ARA tools all sound like overdramatic teenagers. But that’s the great thing about the Internet, you really are a fabulous, high-fashion model animal activist, punching your way through crowds of vivisectors and papparazzi to hurl expensive beverages on clueless fur clad tarts at the Roosevelt. I’m in Altadena shithead. Let’s dance…

  158. #160 Andreas Johansson
    March 31, 2011

    sean the brave model wrote:

    you have no idea what I “engage” in.

    Your lies would do you more good if they were less transparent.

  159. #161 Damien
    March 31, 2011

    Whoa, whoa, DuWayne, can we bag on Mr. Inconsistent Supermodel without bringing in hating on LA? I live here too, it’s not just the tards.

  160. #162 superdave
    March 31, 2011

    sorry i was late to the party guys. but here is my two cents. Sean is right, I wouldn’t want to perform animal experiments. So what? I also wouldn’t want to be a waiter, a sanitation worker, or many other jobs. That doesn’t make those jobs less important or mean that I am morally against any of them.

  161. #163 herr doktor bimler
    March 31, 2011

    Most sociopaths are perfect liars.
    This is actually my area of expertise and I can say with confidence that the majority of sociopaths are crap liars.

    Your research in invalid.
    I perform twin studies on human subjects. Your argument is invalid.

    I saw a study the other day whereby rats were tested to see if they like ejaculating.
    I would like to know more details, and whether the research could be conducted with computer simulations or tissue cultures instead, or indeed with human subjects.

  162. #164 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    March 31, 2011

    Interesting.

    I think we should stop testing stuff on animals.

    And start testing it on the likes of Camille Marino, Sean Michael (whatever its real name is), Ghazal Tajalli – if that’s okay by everyone else. Personally, given their tactics and philosophies, I’m not bothered whether they would agree with this proposal. Their philosophies make them unworthy of consideration.

    If they are truly ‘in it for the animals’, they’ll automatically have no objection to being put in place of the animals. And – to be honest – given what these pieces of shit think they can reasonably do (and have actively supported already) – they’ve earned their places in testing labs many times over.

    People like that lot make me boak.

  163. #165 Jimbo Jones
    March 31, 2011

    So it seems that Sean Michael has forgotten, in his pseudanonymous rage, that he’s left IP addresses behind. And that they’re easily traced. Internet cafe, home or friend’s house, it’s pretty friggin’ easy to put a name to an IP/time combination.

    Sean: you’re not as anonymous as you think. If you’ve come in from /b/, you should know this. If you haven’t come in from /b/, consider this a lesson without consequences. Unlike yourself, I’m relatively sure that no-one here would gather dox to use against you without reason to believe you’d done something illegal.

    See, funny thing about that list you posted Sean? Blasphemous_Kansan found the origin of it. I’ve just found out that the owner of that website is likely to be the owner of this website. Chasing things around, it’d be pretty easy to discredit him based on his practise of TFT. Or, if like yourself, you were to want terrorist-style attacks? His facebook page is easily findable. Don’t rely on people not knowing who you are to save yourself, Sean. Rely on not being a dick.

  164. #166 Tom
    March 31, 2011

    Sean Michael,

    Mostof the facts you posted are rigourously debunked in the link below.
    http://speakingofresearch.com/extremism-undone/bad-science/

    Some of them (e.g. no. 32) twist the truth so much (in a manner which must have been purposeful not out of ignorance) that you can’t help but be cynical for the rest of these “facts”.

    Tom

  165. #167 LW
    March 31, 2011

    Janis, I repeat my observation from the prior thread. You and your ilk accuse animal researchers of being vivisectors, sociopaths, and monsters who earnestly desire to torture animals. If they were so, why would they go into research?

    Animals breed. Small animals breed prolifically. If one wanted to torture fruit flies, an abundance of victims could be obtained with the greatest of ease, and with no possibility of being caught in the act. Likewise flies or cockroaches. Rats or mice could be obtained and bred at home with ease — indeed, the problem for many people is *preventing* their homes from having a population of mice.

    If one wanted to torture animals for some sick reason, why do it in a research setting where some idealistic student, administrator, or janitor might observe, be repulsed, and blow the whistle? Wouldn’t it be easier to just do it at home?

    Does this not suggest that researchers have some *other* motive?

    Have you, janis, ever asked yourself this question?

  166. #168 tfk
    March 31, 2011

    I hope Sean Michael comes back today–I need only tu quoque and I’ll have bingo! Then again, he might actually provide genuine support for his argu…

    Nevermind. More coffee please.

  167. #169 Andy
    March 31, 2011

    we know our targets, the rest of you are just toys.

    Where’s the evil laugh?!? There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering evil laugh!

  168. #170 blasphemous_kansan
    March 31, 2011

    @168: I think you’ve got tu quoque covered as a basic premise given that the sentiment of Sean and ilk, when confronted with the idiocy and brutality of their position, seems to be “BUT U KILLD TEH ANIMALLZZ!!!”

    Congratultions on fallacy Bingo!

  169. #171 Paul
    March 31, 2011

    Tom #166

    You got there first!

    That list that Sean Michael trots out is so full of distortions and inaccuracies that it hurts.

    I think my favorite is the one about blood transfusions being delayed by 200 years by animal research. Even if you ignore the fact that some astects of the development of blood transfusions certainly did rely on animal research, I find it hard to believe that even the most ignorant animal rights true-believer could really believe that blood transfusion could have been developed 200 years ago. Hell 200 years ago they still thought blood letting was a good treatment for most illnesses, and animal research wasn’t yet an important part of medical science – that only happened later in the 19th century as medicine began to be put on a more scientific footing.

    Vioxx is an interesting case, as the early large clinical trials didn’t prove it increased the risk of heart attacks. And while there were suggetions that it might, which should have been taken more seriously, there was also evidence from a series of animal studies (including GM mice) done from the mid 1990′s onwards that cox-2 inhibitors such as Vioxx had the potential to raise the risk of heart attacks. It took much larger numbers in clinical to confirm that risk was real.. and not outweighed by potential benefits these drugs might have for the heart.

    I suppose it’s another eample of the straw man argument that AR activists like to use about the animal tests re supposed to “proove” that drugs are safe, when in reality not even phase 3 clinical trials can do that!

  170. #172 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    #159

    nobody goes to the Roosevelt anymore.

    you should send me your email..i’ll send you a address of this party we’re doing. you should come by. let’s dance.

  171. #173 blasphemous_kansan
    March 31, 2011

    So, to recap, Sean would never engage in acts that are against the law (#66), or choose to incite violence in any way (#158).

    Now he’s calling out commenters to fight.

    Irony meter: *SPROING*

    Such a well-reasoned young man, I can’t believe anyone disagrees with him.

  172. #174 Scott Cunningham
    March 31, 2011

    Wow. A lot happened while I was in class yesterday. Like 157 comments.

    I’ve run Sean Michael’s early stuff through the Babelfish website to translate US English to UK English, and I get a sort of a tinny voice shouting “exterminate” as the translation.

    I guess animal rights activists copy and paste their violent anti-human talking points from Daleks.

  173. #175 Anglachel the Common Sense Pagan
    March 31, 2011

    First of all, Sean, what the hell is “krama”? Insults tend to hit home a little better when they actually make sense! The word is karma!!

    Second, what about those drugs tested on animals to SAVE OTHER ANIMALS?!?! Would you deny a dying animal that drug? Or would you just watch it die and suffer?

    My significant other’s sister is a vet tech. She use to work at an emergency vet clinic, and she would come to us with absolute horror stories of REAL ABUSE to animals!! She has saved many animals, bringing some of them home with her.

    There was severe neglect, a cat who’s owner shot it in the head with an arrow, and stories so horrendous I won’t even get into it right now. There is REAL animal abuse in this world, and you don’t even seem to care!! All you care about are animals in labs, who are NOT neglected, and actually are treated with more love and concern then those that she worked so desperately to save!!

    There is NO JUSTIFICATION for targeting college students the way Alena was targeted! No justification for threatening car bombs or other forms of terrorism! PERIOD! People who engage in these activites are NOT HEROS, and they do not help your cause in the slightest! They are no better than religious extremeists, hyjacking beliefs in order to engage in cruelty against their fellow human beings!

    I have no respect for those who defend people like that. You want to save animals? How about you do something to help the abandoned and the abused? How about donating money or time to a No Kill shelter? How about volunteering for cleaning and saving animals from oil spills? These are useful activites that actually DO SOMETHING to help real animals!!

    Tell me what your little “throwing wine on a woman’s fur coat” has accomplished. Was any animal saved from that?

    Forgive me for feeding the troll, but sometimes, well, these are the kind of people who make me want to engage in the Aspie activity of ramming my head repeatedly into the wall.

  174. #176 Lawrence
    March 31, 2011

    It’s a shame that our trolls are so topic-specific. I’d love to get some of the usual blather from the peanut gallery in here, just to liven things up a bit.

  175. #177 Eleanor
    March 31, 2011

    @176

    Don’t test vaccines on mice, you’ll give them autism! My rabbit was vaccinated, and he’s never spoken since :(

    Sorry, that was lame, I’m not very good at this.

  176. #178 Raging Bee
    March 31, 2011

    At the risk of sounding a little hypocritical, I have come to the conclusion that arguing with the AR extremists is not only useless, but possibly counterproductive, insofar as it rewards clearly insane behavior with attention and notoriety, and may serve to goad the extremists to more acts of cyber-bullying and cyber-stalking.

    For starters, the name of their flagship website announces their mindset: “Negotiation is Over.” Okay, they’ve just said they’re not willing to talk — so why should we bother talking to them and letting them go on talking?

    Second, their contribution to this dialogue consists entirely of baseless claims, lies, insults, threats, lying about their threats, total shameless disregard for nearly all of our universally-accepted standards of decency, and clear indications, not merely of childishness, but of actual mental illness. Free speech and open debate are good things, but it is generally understood that allowing mentally ill people to participate in a public debate is bad for the quality of debate, and bad for the mentally ill as well, as it rewards sick behavior with public attention without alleviating their basic problems.

    And yes, I think we can safely say the AR extremists who have come here recently are indeed mentally ill. Their mindset is as simplistic as that of a little child — one who watches too many Disney movies — especially in regards to treating animals as the equals of humans, inability to understand why that approach simply doesn’t work, refusal to understand what life in the wild is really like for “free” animals, and total refusal to understand how grownups actually think and function in the real world.

    Case in point: the ARAs’ relentless insistence that all animal research is “vivisection” and that people go to undergrad and post-grad schools just so they can practice “vivisection” for their own pleasure. This is not just an incorrect received notion; this is a paranoid delusion, reinforced by the total inability to relate to or understand other humans on any level, or see other humans as anything other than perfect angels, or perfectly evil demons out of their worst nightmares.

    As another commenter already ponited out, the “animal rights” movement is entirely dominated by this sort of insane, pathologically hateful and uncompromising extremist. The “moderate elements” — the ones who actually help the animals instead of supporting pointless bullying and violence — are all in totally different movements, such as “animal welfare” and “environmental protection.” The “animal rights” people have marginalized themselves by their own sociopathic behavior; they don’t represent anything other than their own sick dead-end; they don’t argue in anything remotely resembling good faith; and there’s no point in arguing anything with people who are both so irrelevant and so unable to face reality on its own terms. We might just as well argue geography with flat-Earthers.

    We’ve already established that the ARAs’ chosen tactics consist entirely of cyber-bullying and persistent threats of actual violence. A major component of nearly all bullying, stalking, and abusive behavior is the practice of making oneself unavoidable (this is especially crucial to cyber-bullying); which is exactly what Lisa “Wormtongue” Grossman set out to do when she came to the previus thread to lecture her victim on what to read and how to think. In this instance, the need for open debate is overshadowed by the need to keep the obvious bullies out of here, so their victims and potential victims can come here without being bothered.

    If we want to hear from people who care about animals, let’s shut out the bullies and hear from people who actually DO THINGS that benefit animals: volunteers who bring sick animals to vets, activists who get anti-cruelty laws passed, cops who go after endangered-species trafficking, environmentalists working to change human behavior to protect the ecosystem as a whole, that sort. These are the people who actually save animals; and their accomplishments prove that bullying and threats are NOT necessary, and not even helpful, to their cause. The ARAs have nothing to do with such accomplishments, which is why they resort to cyber-bullying and threats instead; and which is why we lose nothing by shutting them out of grownup conversations.

  177. #179 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    I don’t incite violence against vivisectors, even though i believe all of them should be taken out. I will be more than happy to beat the shit out of some d-bag that is trying to call me out, because he lives Altadena.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbpikGN_NpY

  178. #180 JohnV
    March 31, 2011

    @sean michael

    You don’t incite violence you just hope and want very strongly for it to happen. Glad we cleared that up you scumbag.

  179. #181 CoronalThaw
    March 31, 2011

    “I don’t incite violence against vivisectors, even though i believe all of them should be taken out.”

    Taken out for a nice lunch, surely.

  180. #182 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    @JohnV

    thank you, somebody finally gets it.

    I don’t promote it..I just cross my fingers.

  181. #183 Blasphemous_Kansan
    March 31, 2011

    182: “I don’t promote it..I just cross my fingers”

    So, you admit to being sadistic AND a coward!
    This was clear already, but it’s good to get direct verification.

  182. #184 scott
    March 31, 2011

    ARA’s must really have a hell of a dilemma watching national geographic. If you really want see some animal torture going on that’s the place. I mean the way those lions chase down gazelles and then rip them apart and eat them on the spot has really got to invoke some serious mental gymnastic in the ARA’s heads. Or how about all those hawks, who everyday swoop down and nab some innocent little critter, only to fly it back to their nest and have it devoured by their little ones.

    Of course all these predators are doing these things for survival of their own species. With no regard for the prey’s species and its genetic survival. I’m sure that the ARA’s think, “well that’s nature and it understandable and normal”. We as humans just happen to be more intelligent then all theses other animals and we are able to use that intelligence to help the survival of our species. We do that by research with animals, plants, chemicals etc… If these other species were able to use animals to cure illnesses to keep themselves healthy they probably would, without hesitation in my opinion.

    So the use of other animals for the survival of a species is a perfectly natural process. We humans just do it in a way that the ARA’s don’t like, or understand as far as I can tell. Hopefully someday we won’t need to do animal research anymore, nobody likes doing it. Until then the survival and well being of our species is at the forefront of whats important to us, the same as the lion or the hawk.

  183. #185 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    so if you agree with the war in the middle east you’re a coward if you don’t tell people to enlist in the military????

  184. #186 Pablo
    March 31, 2011

    You and your ilk accuse animal researchers of being vivisectors, sociopaths, and monsters who earnestly desire to torture animals. If they were so, why would they go into research?

    LW – I was going to bring up another example: veterinarians

    There are actually a lot of veterinarians who do research on animals. But among those that don’t, most of them trained on what they even called, “lab dogs.” They had a set of dogs that was specifically used for training, including doing medically unnecessary surgeries and even euthanasias.

    Monsters! Sociopaths! Clearly they are in it to torture animals.

    Then again, they aren’t in it for the money, I can tell you that.

    (my wife is a vet, btw)

  185. #187 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    i don’t need to promote violence when i know vivisectors feel like this..

    “Because of my fear, I experience anxiety when I see a stranger walking down the street or an unknown car driving through the neighborhood. I take defensive measures to be sure that I am safe in my home. I already had a security guard posted at my house, and now I am having surveillance equipment installed. I have tried to minimize the impact so that I can live my life as normal as possible in the face of these threats, but it is difficult. I have to be wary and vigilant even when I am in my own home. I have had to have difficult discussions with my neighbors.

    -UCLA Vivisector J. David Jentsch (August 24, 2010)…

  186. #188 blasphemous_kansan
    March 31, 2011

    185: Though this seems painfully obvious to me, the (intentionally) ambiguous phrase that you used (‘…agree with the war..)’ can mean many different things. There are levels of ‘agreement’ one can have with a war that do not include the fervent mania that you exhibit in your lust for death and suffering. I’m guessing you knew this, but just seek to obfuscate, as always.

    To answer your non-question, I’ll use the phrase ‘agree with the war’ in the context that you seem to ‘agree’ with the acts of violence discussed here:

    Your analogy is flawed at the onset since going to war is not a crime in itself, but inciting domestic violence is. If, hypothetically, some miserable piece of crap human sat around on a pacifist forum all day and posted rant after rant about how all of the enemies of their country deserved to die in glorious warfare, and that they were crossing their fingers that great tragedy would come to them, and, when asked why he didn’t join up to go fight he said “Well, I would never do that, but I sure hope it happens”. Yes, this hypothetical person would be called a coward. In terms you may understand, this person is writing checks that his proverbial ass can’t cash (even with his amazingly succesful modeling career).

    Such a hypothetical person would seem to me to be quite a nasty waster of valuable oxygen. Thank goodness no such person exists.

  187. #189 Scott Cunningham
    March 31, 2011

    @Raging Bee.

    There is some value in having these arguments for the sake of publicly showing support and solidarity for victims of such harassment. The Pro-Test rallies are a great example.

    Also, new young people reach adulthood every day, freshly unaware of just how violent and insane the AR groups are, so there’s an ongoing need for an ever-renewing public record of “yes, they are crazy, yes, they really said that, no, they have no evidence, and no, that’s not what animal testing is like.”

  188. #190 Composer99
    March 31, 2011

    It appears to me that sean michael, by his own admission, works assiduously to create an environment in which violence against scientists & researchers is acceptable.

    See, for example, here

    “ANY MEANS NECESSARY” can mean a number of things, for me it means do whatever it takes as long as I follow the law, I can’t speak for the underground, because i don’t know any of them..nor do i want to, but let make this clear…THEY ARE THE TRUE HEROES OF OUR MOVEMENT.

    So, the ‘underground’ are the TRUE HEROES; the implication is that the true heroes are the ones who are prepared to engage in illegal activity.

    We also have this example:

    If people want to take it to that level I really can’t blame them.

    So, he ‘can’t blame’ people who are prepared to carry out violence in the name of his cause.

    And of course, we have his most recent attempt to weasel out of the implications of his stance (no link so I don’t go into moderation):

    I don’t incite violence against vivisectors, even though i believe all of them should be taken out.

    We have a classic dogwhistle in operation here: “Oh, no, I wouldn’t do anything so awful as to actually suggest someone should go kill these people – but, goodness me, wouldn’t the world be such a better place if all of these people were to… be taken care of?”

    I suggest that other readers replace ‘vivisectors’ with, say, ‘feminists’, or ‘Muslims’, or ‘Jews’ and then decide if we should take sean michael’s attempt at self-exculpation seriously.

  189. #191 Terrie
    March 31, 2011

    @4. Going waaaay back to the beginning here. “Scientific animals rights” already exists. It’s called animal welfare. It’s the idea that animal use should never be undertaken unnecessarily, and always in a way designed to minimize any suffering.

  190. #192 DuWayne
    March 31, 2011

    sean michaels –

    so if you agree with the war in the middle east you’re a coward if you don’t tell people to enlist in the military????

    Christ you’re an idiot. If you support the war, you’re a coward if you don’t enlist yourself.

    i don’t need to promote violence…

    Yet here you are, promoting violence. If you don’t see that expressing agreement with = promoting, you’re even stupider than I thought.

    …when i know vivisectors feel like this.

    When you take joy at making people feel that way, you’re promoting and encouraging those who engage in actions that make them feel that way. It really is that simple.

    You can pretend all you want, deny all you want and stick your fingers in your ears all you want – your are a supporter of terrorism, too cowardly to actually engage in that terrorism yourself.

  191. #193 blasphemous_kansan
    March 31, 2011

    Among Sean’s piles of excrement he’s left around here, I think we can safely add his ‘modeling career’ to the list. I’ve known a couple of people who did modeling work, and even at the entry level none would ever, ever, consent to any activity (such as a throwdown fist fight with a blog commenter) that might damage their marketable features.

    If Sean actually is a model, then we can safely conclude that he’s as bad at that as he is at critical thinking. If he ever picks one of these fights in real life, his next gig could be modeling the coma patients on ‘House’!

  192. #194 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    I’m not against violence toward any vivisector. enough said.

    that’s how i feel, and the last time i checked i live in the U.S. where i can feel however the fuck i want.

  193. #195 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    wow! why are we still talking about me modeling?? and just to let you know..me and my pretty model friends will be the first to destroy anybody that wants to step up to the plate.

    you’ve been watching too much zoolander, we love getting our hands dirty.

  194. #196 CoronalThaw
    March 31, 2011

    I think “he”‘s just from someplace like 4chan. :)

  195. #197 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    :)

    maybe. maybe not.

  196. #198 Andy
    March 31, 2011

    sean, if you are from /b/ (or if you’re a collection of people from /b/), I really expect more from you than what you’re giving. You guys are supposed to be expert trolls.

  197. #199 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    what the hell is /b/?

  198. #200 Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
    March 31, 2011

    Why do people think Sean is a /b/-tard or other Anon? Seriously, it’s bizarre. I mean, sure, he’s probably not a model, but the population of non-models and /b/-tards is hardly a perfect overlap.

    Sean, what you are is fucking stupid. You don’t know what science is, you don’t know what vivisection is, you don’t know what morals are, and you don’t know what terrorism is.

    You and Janis should go fuck yourselves, as should Lisa Grossman and Camille Marino. Get out of the way and let the adults do their work so some suffering will be reduced in the world.

  199. #201 Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
    March 31, 2011

    Why do people think Sean is a /b/-tard or other Anon? Seriously, it’s bizarre. I mean, sure, he’s probably not a model, but the population of non-models and /b/-tards is hardly a perfect overlap.

    Sean, what you are is fucking stupid. You don’t know what science is, you don’t know what vivisection is, you don’t know what morals are, and you don’t know what terrorism is.

    You and Janis should go fuck yourselves, as should Lisa Grossman and Camille Marino. Get out of the way and let the adults do their work so some suffering will be reduced in the world.

  200. #202 Raging Bee
    March 31, 2011

    Scott: why not ban the bullies and lunatics and leave their offending posts up as evidence of their true character? Shutting out the bullies does not have to mean hiding all traces of their presence. Just leave their odiously revealing posts up, announce they’ve been banned, and let the conversation go on without them.

  201. #203 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    science?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd95gVyFo5U

    please ban me.

    that would be amazing. please deny my right to free speech.

  202. #204 Gray Falcon
    March 31, 2011

    Yeah, the first amendment only deals with the government’s authority. This is the blog owner’s territory, and banning you would be his authority alone. You could start your own blog if you still wanted.

  203. #205 Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
    March 31, 2011

    that would be amazing. please deny my right to free speech.

    So in addition to failing at science, biology, and the internet, as well as modeling, you suck at law. Color me unsurprised. Your right to free speech means the government can’t take your ability to speak in a public place away.

    It’s not an obligation that everyone allow every moron with a megaphone to use /their personal/ forum. Orac can’t take away your right to freedom of speech (That is, your right to get a political or otherwise message out to the public), but he damn sure doesn’t have to facilitate it on what is effectively his property.

  204. #206 Yojimbo
    March 31, 2011

    Wow – sean michael appears to be another doofus who doesn’t understand what the right to free speech is all about. Why are they so common?

  205. #207 Narad
    March 31, 2011

    So, wait, 6’1″ and you weigh 133? What do you model, Beanpole, overalls and straw hats?

  206. #208 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    I HAVE my own wordpress blog dealing with animal activism, and shutting down huntingdon life sciences.

    it’s pushing close to 5,000 views in three months.

  207. #209 Lawrence
    March 31, 2011

    Of course, as a lover of free speech, he has no problem advocating actions that deny the rights of other individuals.

  208. #210 Heliantus
    March 31, 2011

    @ Scott

    ARA’s must really have a hell of a dilemma watching national geographic. If you really want see some animal torture going on that’s the place. I mean the way those lions chase down gazelles

    We can also talk about cats – lion cubs or you house kitty – playing with a live prey. Or killer whales chasing their whale prey to exhaustion, before eating its tongue while the whale is helpless but alive.
    Yep, loving Mother Nature has a sadistic streak.

    Now, a number of ARAs have found the solution: teach their pets to become vegans. From that I read on Pharyngula, the dear Camille starved her cat to death in doing so.
    I have mixed feelings about animal experimentation – to paraphrase Jean Bernard (a professor from my country), animal experimentation is morally justified and justifiably immoral.
    But I know where I stand with the moronic owner of an abused pet.

  209. #211 Michael Crichton
    March 31, 2011

    Troll: I HAVE my own wordpress blog dealing with animal activism, and shutting down huntingdon life sciences.

    And I’m _sure_ you’ve never “denied the first amendment rights” of any poster by moderating their comments. Post the url so we can see for ourselves, please.

  210. #212 sophia8
    March 31, 2011

    what the hell is /b/?
    Sean, there’s this great little website called google.com. Maybe you’ve heard of it? You go there, paste something into the box, hit ‘enter’, and hey presto! Your question is answered.

  211. #213 Lynxreign
    March 31, 2011

    @200 “sean michael”

    Excellent, you also don’t understand the concept of free speech.

    You’re not a model (nor do you look like one, Barbazon won’t be calling).

    You’re a pathetic teenager looking to get some fun by pissing people off. Sad, lonely and can’t even keep his story straight. “Sean Michael”, let me guess you’re a big WWE fan? Between using the name of a wrestler, barely altered and your constant suggestions that you’ll fight people I’m guessing you’re a fanboy who’s never been in a real fight. Instead of doing anything worthwhile with your life, you’ll waste it. Sad.

  212. #214 Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
    March 31, 2011

    I HAVE my own wordpress blog dealing with animal activism, and shutting down huntingdon life sciences.

    it’s pushing close to 5,000 views in three months.

    One so irrelevant that “Recent comments on Respectful Insolence include…” results dwarf it, apparently.

  213. #215 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    murderers don’t deserve rights..they deserve to be taken out from 400yrds with a bolt action 30-06. oh, did mention i’m a captain of a military simulation paintball team? I shoot people the legal way, i’m pretty good, i just pretend the other team is a bunch of vivisectors.

    still waiting for somebody to defend that video i posted of baby britches.

  214. #216 Gray Falcon
    March 31, 2011

    Your first attempt to close down Huntington Life Services failed miserably, and you no longer have the public goodwill to try a second time. Several animals were no doubt put down when the labs were closed, but the experiments were likely moved elsewhere. Another great victory like Huntington would be your undoing.

    And five thousand visitors is about how many this site gets in a single day.

  215. #217 themann1086
    March 31, 2011

    What “sean” is actually promoting is Eliminationism. Or as the urban legend says, “Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?”

  216. #218 NJ
    March 31, 2011

    sm @ 212:

    i’m a captain of a military simulation paintball team

    Lnyxreign @ 210:

    You’re a pathetic teenager looking to get some fun by pissing people off. Sad, lonely and can’t even keep his story straight.

    Today’s prescient comment winner!

  217. #219 Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
    March 31, 2011

    See, that’s just disgusting. Even if it were true that doing science through animals were murder, murderers would still deserve rights. They still do, in fact, receive them, although they are accorded too few.

    Just another schmuck with revenge fantasies. Re: Your video, since you’re not posting the study that it corresponds, and you’ve proven that your grasp of facts is… tenuous, it’s.. a lie. I don’t have to defend anything that is such obvious bullshit to begin with.

  218. #220 Lynxreign
    March 31, 2011

    @212 sean michael

    did mention i’m a captain of a military simulation paintball team?

    More evidence that you’re a bored teen wasting his life.

    Also, Bwahahahahahaha! That’s your claim to experience that you’ll be able to shoot someone at 400 yards? Aren’t you just the cutest little thing! I bet you’re really good at video games too.

  219. #221 Leni
    March 31, 2011

    sean michael :

    i don’t need to promote violence when i know vivisectors feel like this..

    You don’t need to promote violence because…you know that it works when other people do it?

    Do you realize that what you said there *is* promoting violence and terrorism?

    As vile a little toad as I think you are, I wouldn’t stoop low enough to be gleeful if you were the target of, say, angry grad student terrorists. I’d be appalled and concerned for your safety, even though I don’t know you and probably wouldn’t like you if I did.

    The fact that your ideology has divorced you from something so basic as empathy should disturb you. Have you ever even stopped to think about what that means? Do you know what happens when large numbers of people become consumed with political or religious ideologies to the point where they start thinking people on the other side deserve to be dead?

    People die, that’s what happens. Sometimes they end up in mass graves under the boots of the group who had more power.

    Who, in this situation has more power? Your side or ours? And what do you think would happen if we resorted to your tactics? You’d lose, that’s what. In reality, you should be thanking us for not being as insane as you are.

  220. #222 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    all I have to say is HLS KICKED OFF LSE AND NYSE! and they’re close to 100 million in debt.

  221. #223 Orac
    March 31, 2011

    that would be amazing. please deny my right to free speech.

    You have no “right” to free speech here, any more than the writer of a letter to the editor has a “right” to have his letter published in a newspaper or magazine. Such publication occurs if the editors decide to publish it; the letter writer can’t compel it.

    You have a right to free speech in general, but you do not have a right to speak on this particular platform unless I grant it to you. Fortunately for you, I am a benevolent dictator and allow damned near anyone to say damned near anything, having only banned two or three commenters in the course of six years. Indeed, my commitment to free speech is such that I’ve tolerated truly obnoxious commenters dropping copious quantities of hateful stupid onto my blog far longer than I should tolerate them.

  222. #224 Orac
    March 31, 2011

    it’s pushing close to 5,000 views in three months.

    Very impressive.

    Scroll all the way down to the bottom of this page. Click on the little square that says “Sitemeter.” That will show you my stats.

    Get the message?

  223. #225 Prometheus
    March 31, 2011

    “sean michael” boasts of his violent action “cred”:

    “murderers don’t deserve rights..they deserve to be taken out from 400yrds with a bolt action 30-06. oh, did mention i’m a captain of a military simulation paintball team?”

    Odd that he doesn’t think that murderers – who are animals, if also human – don’t deserve rights, yet animals – like my serial rodent killer cat – do. He seems conflicted – or maybe he just lacks the insight to realise that he’s talking nonsense.

    It’s people like “sean michael” that give hope and cheer to the pathetic losers who are “targeting the soft underbelly” by harrassing students.

    So far, they’ve been lucky – they haven’t killed anyone (although hundreds of experimental animals they’ve “freed” have died). This is largely due to luck. They also haven’t had the misfortune of running across one of the exceedingly rare armed research professors. I can only wonder what effect having one of their “activists” gut-shot while trying to fire-bomb someone’s house would have on recruitment.

    If this keeps up, it’s only a matter of time before a human dies. “sean michael” may not see that as a significant event (so long as he isn’t the human dying), but it will be.

    Prometheus

  224. #226 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    @Orac

    your groupies are way too easy.

    @Lynxreign

    I have 30-06 along with a springfield .40.

    and i wish i could shoot 400yrds

    teenager? i’m 29.

  225. #227 Kristen
    March 31, 2011

    So, he’s a successful model who posts inflammatory speech condoning violence and he likes to play in the woods with fake guns. Got it.

    My husband went to the Air Force Academy and worked his ass off for four years to get his commission, then worked his ass off, putting his life in danger four more years before he earned the title “Captain”. Don’t fool yourself, just because the other boys in the neighborhood think your soooo cool and made you “captain” doesn’t impress anyone.

    You are a coward and IMO a child. You have no idea how stupid you have made yourself look on this blog. If I were part of the Animal Rights movement I would be ashamed of you (I doubt they are, though. I imagine they can’t be too picky).

  226. #228 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    I’m just having fun now, just for the lulz. i like watching all of you cry.

  227. #229 Josh A
    March 31, 2011

    “and i have thrown punches for talking shit on a dudes leather jacket. ”

    A Leather Jacket? Do you know where leather comes from?

  228. #230 Michael Crichton
    March 31, 2011

    Troll: “Laughing so hard tears roll down our faces” =/= “crying”.

  229. #231 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    The funny thing about paintball is we play along side of ex seals, active military, police officers, and they have no idea why our team is called Direct Action Milita.

    D.A.M.

  230. #232 Narad
    March 31, 2011

    Aren’t paintballs made of gelatin?

  231. #233 Peapoh
    March 31, 2011

    All you know how to do is “have fun” with people, Sean. In these 227 comments you have shamelessly posted nothing but basesless and unsubstantial “facts” and propaganda. And when pressed for intellectual honesty you respond with MORE half assed “truths”.

    Don’t fool yourself.

  232. #234 NJ
    March 31, 2011

    sm @ 224:

    teenager? i’m 29.

    The question has been about your chronological age, not your IQ.

  233. #235 Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
    March 31, 2011

    Is that before or after shoots? Do you blog about it?

    Christ almighty what a maroon.

  234. #236 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    @ Michael

    doesn’t sound like kristen is laughing, actually..it doesn’t sound like 95% of the people on here are laughing.

    just saying.

  235. #237 Gray Falcon
    March 31, 2011

    @sean
    I’m not upset at all. I’m actually quite satisfied that I could put cracks in your worldview with just two words: citation needed.

  236. #238 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    *yawn*

  237. #239 Lawrence
    March 31, 2011

    Wow – a milsim paintballer who likes to think he’s actually “killing” people when he shoots them. As an avid paintballer myself, our sport doesn’t need people like you – you & your lot give us all a bad name.

  238. #240 Chris
    March 31, 2011

    sean michael, just because your fake ID says 29, it does not mean you are anything by a teenager. At least mentally and emotionally.

    Folks, while Lisa Grossman and Janis have both run away just like Brave Sir Robin, we are left with this pointless clown. Who for some strange reason is hearing things in his head, the only explanation for claiming “it doesn’t sound like 95% of the people on here are laughing.”

    He is now just trolling, it is time to ignore him. Though if it amuses you to bat around the new play toy, go ahead.

  239. #241 Lynxreign
    March 31, 2011

    @224 sean michael

    I have 30-06 along with a springfield .40.

    and i wish i could shoot 400yrds

    Pathetic

    teenager? i’m 29.

    If true, even more pathetic. Already a decade gone by with nothing to show for your life. Wanting to be a model is apparently the best dream you can come up with.

    i like watching all of you cry.

    I haven’t seen anyone here cry. I’ve seen you whine quite a bit. I like that you’re consistant in just making crap up though.

  240. #242 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    there’s bad boys in every sport.

    we don’t mind the title.

    bwhahahahha!!!

    *rubs hands together*

  241. #243 Todd W.
    March 31, 2011

    murderers don’t deserve rights..they deserve to be taken out from 400yrds with a bolt action 30-06

    So, according to sean’s own logic, people on his own side who might resort to killing a “vivisectionist” do not deserve rights and should be taken out from 400 yards with a bolt action 30-06. Says something about his mental health, no?

  242. #244 Lawrence
    March 31, 2011

    Paintballs are in fact made of gelatin & not “vegetarian.”

    Knowing who I know in the paintball community, I’d be more than happy to spread the word – I’m sure all of those military & police-types you “play” with would be more than happy to find out your views on criminal activites.

    Moron.

  243. #245 Todd W.
    March 31, 2011

    @sean

    I feel ALL species have a right to live without torture and suffering.

    So why are you violating our right to live without torture and suffering by continuing to post your inane drivel? I mean, seriously, dude, some consistency wouldn’t hurt.

  244. #246 JayK
    March 31, 2011

    I’m about 90% certain that the FBI is involved in the domestic terrorism charges against NIU, what they have done fits the definition well and in a Democratic led Justice Department, those that are connected will be feeling a sting as well. The threats that they have placed could easily cause issues in pharmaceutical supplies and government sponsored research.

    As for the troll, sean michaels, he shows many of the likely traits of an attention starved child or adult-child that was most likely raised in a single parent (mother) household where the lack of a father figure created a lack of awareness of cultural boundaries, or even awareness of others’ awareness. sean michaels will most likely continue to live with his mother well into his 20′s and possibly early thirties and will blame his lack of close relationships on others. This attack on “vivisectionists” is nothing more than his current target and will probably only last for a few years when it will taper off in favor of a more distant target where he can maintain an even greater sense of anonymity while imagining that he is affecting change. It is highly likely that he will shift his negative attention towards children sometime in his future.

  245. #247 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    Force must be used when the innocent are killed and tortured.

    just a taste of your own medicine.

  246. #248 Poodle Stomper
    March 31, 2011

    I have 30-06 along with a springfield .40. and i wish i could shoot 400yrds

    I can beat that easily. I have more that 2 rifles, am prior military and I CAN shoot at 400 yards and beyond. Get out of momma’s basement, get a real job, learn some real science and join the real world.

    I’ve gotta go stomp on some poodles now.

  247. #249 Andy
    March 31, 2011

    what the hell is /b/?

    I’m just having fun now, just for the lulz. i like watching all of you cry.

    You know how I know you already know the answer to your question?

    Really, sean. I’ll say it again. /b/tards are usually much better at trolling than this. I mean, make it a little less obvious next time., mr. model who is also an expert paintball sharpshooter and will next tell us of his advanced martial arts blackbelts and/or MMA expertise.

  248. #250 Todd W.
    March 31, 2011

    So, to recap:

    sean, the trolling ARA, plays paintball, which uses gelatin (derived from animals). He is in favor of the vigilante killing of murdering ARAs and despite feeling that “ALL” species have a right to live without being tortured insists on torturing everyone here with his quaint, twisted illogic.

    About sums up the cute li’l tyke we’re dealin’ with. Amusing, but @BronxZoosCobra is much more entertaining.

  249. #251 wintermute
    March 31, 2011

    Force must be used when the innocent are killed and tortured.

    So, when NIO follow through on their threats to kill the children of animal researchers, you’ll demand that they be hunted down and murdered?

  250. #252 triskelethecat
    March 31, 2011

    Am I a bad person because I think sean is really, really funny? It’s like watching a 3 year old stomp around in a temper, while the adults sit and watch, and the kid keeps saying, “bang, you’re dead” while shooting with his finger.

    Don’t worry sean. No one here will hurt you, we just point and laugh.

    You know, trolls like sean are really good to make fangs sharp and fur all nice and sniny. I’m sure that’s why he’s here – as a very concerned animal rights activist he wanted to make sure we were all in the best of sniny health.

  251. #253 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    nope, but i’ve been a dj for 12 years, i produce music, I have a 62 bel air, i throw a club in hollywood every tuesday, I shoot guns, but no MMA. sorry.

  252. #254 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    tiberius first strike rounds aren’t gelatin.

  253. #255 Yojimbo
    March 31, 2011

    Oh well – fun’s over. This is just getting sad.

  254. #256 Narad
    March 31, 2011

    tiberius first strike rounds aren’t gelatin.

    Oh, wow, so even your tough-guy paintball persona prefers to hide at a safe distance and snipe away? That’s rich.

  255. #257 JohnV
    March 31, 2011

    5000 page views in 3 months? Nice work. At that rate in 7 months or so you’ll have as many page views as this blog had yesterday.
    :)

  256. #258 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    i play mid with first strike rounds, but yes i also snipe.

  257. #259 Lawrence
    March 31, 2011

    Oh, he’s a paintball “sniper” even…this is rich & hilarious. It’ll be fun to out this guy (already in progress).

  258. #260 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    *yawn*

  259. #261 Rutee, Shrieking Harpy of Dooooom
    March 31, 2011

    Lulz is a widespread internet meme, not merely confined to 4chan.

    4chan memes do go places. Remember when Rick Astley sang “Never Gonna Give You Up” during the Macy’s Day Parade?

    How sad is it for ARAs that I consider /b/ better than them?

  260. #262 Composer99
    March 31, 2011

    What is it with trolls and their stunning inability to realize they are out of their league?

    In the last few weeks we’ve had Sid Offit, augustine, Th1Th2, The Crack Emcee, and now sean michael.

    (To be fair, Sid does not usually boast of his conquest of the thread, at least not on Respectul Insolence, and at least not that I’ve noticed.)

    On the plus side, we’ve finally received the long-awaited evil laugh.

    With sean michael’s ineffably superior intellect, incredible physical fitness, and now his evil laugh, surely the sunlit uplands of supervillainy await him.

  261. #263 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    that was just for you composer.

  262. #264 Pieter B
    March 31, 2011

    Free the minks! [from 1998]

    In what must have seemed like a brilliant idea at the time, British animal-rights activists sneaked onto the grounds of a mink farm here during the weekend, cut through wire fences and gave 6,500 minks their freedom instead of a future as fur coats. … Domestic pets and farm animals — including cats, hamsters, chickens, guinea pigs and hens — have been pursued and killed. Wild animals — including the endangered water vole, a type of water rat — are under attack. Local fisheries are threatened. And local residents, including the owners of a wild bird sanctuary where three birds were killed in mink attacks Sunday and Monday, have taken up arms. One of the dead birds was a beloved, 14-year-old kestrel named Spitfire who made countless educational trips to local schools.

    The ecological ignorance of such “activists” can hardly be overstated. In this and similar incidents, large percentages of the released animals get run over on the roads and highways within 48 hours of their “liberation”. I’ve heard animal-rights people justify this sort of thing by saying that the animals should be “out in nature having fun.” They forget that “nature is red in tooth and claw” is a very accurate description of the real world. Other releases have resulted in minks killing and eating each other, as well as upsetting the ecological balance in the area.

    sean:

    I HAVE my own wordpress blog dealing with animal activism, and shutting down huntingdon life sciences.

    it’s pushing close to 5,000 views in three months.

    500 clicks a day? Color me underwhelmed..

    i’ve been a dj for 12 years, i produce music, I have a 62 bel air, i throw a club in hollywood every tuesday

    . . . And such a hipster that you have the internet on vinyl. Wow. A Tuesday night club is nothing to brag about, laddie. Slowest, lamest night of the week.

  263. #265 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    my day at the DMV is done. I’ll check in later.

    love you.

    sean

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7xXgIgV6DA

  264. #266 Todd W.
    March 31, 2011

    tiberius first strike rounds aren’t gelatin

    Ah, so you prefer to play with rounds made of non-biodegradable plastic (polystyrene) that can have detrimental effects on wildlife, both directly and through its manufacture. Why do you hate animals so much?

  265. #267 Lawrence
    March 31, 2011

    LOL Todd, you beat me to it. I was off spreading the word to a variety of associates. You’d be amazed at how small a sport paintball actually is – and how intolerant of idiots.

  266. #268 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    you can make any night at a club amazing..as long as you have the right crowd.

    I don’t want to throw a party on the weekend, that’s when all the people from the valley want to come party. I don’t go out on the weekends unless i have to dj.

  267. #269 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    hey lawrence, fuck your associates.

  268. #270 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    fuck you, and your associates. tell them ALL!

  269. #271 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    im a doo doo head and i like sniffing my butt. i am also a commie. I enjoy long walks on the beach and i can be a paintwarz sniper. i like call of doody. and i can be a profeshunal paintball warz captain.

  270. #272 Narad
    March 31, 2011

    You should get “One Tin Soldier” into the party mix.

  271. #273 Kristen
    March 31, 2011

    Dawn,

    Am I a bad person because I think sean is really, really funny? It’s like watching a 3 year old stomp around in a temper, while the adults sit and watch, and the kid keeps saying, “bang, you’re dead” while shooting with his finger.

    I am a bad person too then.

    It is hilarious how he thinks he can rile me. I have a 14-year-old who acts more mature. I wanted to call out his ‘captain’ brag, pathetic poser that he is.

    Lawrence,

    It’ll be fun to out this guy (already in progress).

    Cool, please do let us know. Normally I wouldn’t want somebody “outed” but he was warned.

  272. #274 Beamup
    March 31, 2011

    Outed to the police so he can be charged with inciting violence I’d go with. But I don’t see how a public outing serves any purpose. Really, who cares? I doubt it’s like his friends are unlikely to be aware he’s a lunatic.

  273. #275 David Marjanović
    March 31, 2011

    :-D :-D :-D

    In about 15 years on the Internet, I don’t think I’ve ever seen such an amusing troll.

    Internet Tough Guy photos: 1, 2, 3.

    Sean, what you are is fucking stupid. You don’t know what science is, you don’t know what vivisection is, you don’t know what morals are, and you don’t know what terrorism is.

    He doesn’t even know what a troll is. And he obeys Shaker’s Law.

    Out of pity, sean:

    A troll is somebody who says something — anything — in order to make everyone upset, and then laughs at the upset reactions. Most trolls freely admit that’s what they’re doing; you’ve admitted it several times already, as if in a desperate plea urging us to be upset already. :-D

    Shaker’s Law states that the more loudly and the more often somebody claims to be leaving an Internet discussion, the more quickly they’ll come back. You flounced in comment 263, and 3 comments and 10 minutes later you were back. Makes you look silly, in case you didn’t notice.

    Vivisection means dissection of a living animal. I don’t think anybody does that anymore; what for? I don’t know if it’s even legal anywhere in the Western world, but if it is, getting a permit certainly takes forever. Even getting a permit for an ordinary medical test on lab mice is a major expense of time and money.

    You’d be amazed at how small a sport paintball actually is – and how intolerant of idiots.

    Intolerant of idiots? The leader of Austria’s xenophobe party used to play paintball (with guess what overtones).

  274. #276 Lynxreign
    March 31, 2011

    I can see it now.

    “Fine, ‘Sean’, fine. You can be ‘captain’. Now go hide behind that tree and don’t come out until I say. You can ‘lead’ us better from there and you’re too valuable as ‘captain’ to get in the wa… to get shot early.”

    What a joke. I bet when no-one shows to the Tuesday night parties in his basement he just tells himself that no-one is cool enough to show up. You know, all those people with jobs…

  275. #277 Lawrence
    March 31, 2011

    Actually has nothing to do with his friends – quite a number of us are either current/former law enforcement or military (though much more laid back than you would probably imagine).

    This guy won’t be looked upon very kindly by the community as a whole.

  276. #278 Raging Bee
    March 31, 2011

    Beamup: what makes you think he HAS any friends? His relentless infantile presence here suggests he has no social life, no hobbies, nothing relevant to do in the real world, and no other source of pleasure or filfillment of any kind. I suspect his presence on the Web is inversely proportional to his relevance in the real world.

    Even his mentors in NIO have buggered off long ago, and it’s probably because even those sick shitheads had more important things to do than sean will ever have (like maybe trying to act a little more mature so their bullying and threats sound more credible).

    One thing we know for sure: he’s certainly not actively working to protect animals in the real world.

  277. #279 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    i’ll be here tomorrow..let’s see how many of you show up.

    come out from behind your computers.

    Friday, April 1: Meet at Westfield Century City Shopping Mall (in front of Gelson’s Grocery) at 12:30PM SHARP. The parking garage is located off of Century Park Wy and Constellation Blvd, across from the MGM building.

  278. #280 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    tomorrow.

    let’s see how many of you show up.

    Friday, April 1: Meet at Westfield Century City Shopping Mall (in front of Gelson’s Grocery) at 12:30PM SHARP. The parking garage is located off of Century Park Wy and Constellation Blvd, across from the MGM building.

  279. #281 Lynxreign
    March 31, 2011

    @280 sean michael

    12:30PM SHARP

    Is that when you get your lunchbreak from WeenieWorld?

  280. #282 David Marjanović
    March 31, 2011

    let’s see how many of you show up.

    Wrong continent for me. Alas…

    April 1

    Eh… you know…
    :-D

  281. #283 blasphemous_kansan
    March 31, 2011

    I wonder which posse sean will bring to the Westfield Century City Shopping Mall (in front of Gelson’s Grocery). So many choices!
    -The modeling crew
    -The paintball team
    -The LA Tuesday night club scene.
    -Some local DJ’s
    -An animal rights anti-vivisector posse?

    With so many friends and vibrant social circles, it will be hard to choose, I’m sure.

  282. #284 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    -An animal rights anti-vivisector posse.

    there’s a HLS demo across the street.

  283. #285 Poodle Stomper
    March 31, 2011

    let’s see how many of you show up

    Wrong part of the country altogether for me and I have a real job to do. Animal research related of course.

  284. #286 Lawrence
    March 31, 2011

    Wow, guess I hit a sore spot. LOL

  285. #287 VikingMoose
    March 31, 2011

    “hahaha..citation for what?

    Posted by: sean micheal | March 30, 2011 3:40 PM”

    see, guys, his posts are 100% animal free. and 100% citation free! He’s practicing what he preaches!

    *takes big bite of milk fed veal sammich*

  286. #288 Leni
    March 31, 2011

    I won’t be able to make it to LA tomorrow, but please give yourself the finger for me! Tell you what, I’ll google-earth your location at 12:30 Pacific SHARP and give the monitor the finger, you just look up at the sky and remember that somewhere, someone in the world is thinking that you are possibly the biggest dumbass ever. And flipping you off.

    I am secretly hoping someone paintball snipes you in the back of a head, though. Could you wear some identifying article of clothing so we know who to laugh at? An armband with two stylized S’s on it perhaps? A nice brown button-up?

  287. #289 Chris
    March 31, 2011

    silly sean:

    Friday, April 1: Meet at Westfield Century City Shopping Mall (in front of Gelson’s Grocery) at 12:30PM SHARP. The parking garage is located off of Century Park Wy and Constellation Blvd, across from the MGM building.

    Aren’t you a bit late:

    Friday, March 25: Meet at Westfield Century City Shopping Mall (in front of
    Gelson’s Grocery) at 12:00PM SHARP. The parking garage is located off of Century Park Wy and Constellation Blvd, across from the MGM building.

  288. #290 sean michael
    March 31, 2011

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG_aNnx6E4g&feature=related

    he’s teaching your kids.

    LOVE AND RESPECT FOR STEVEN BEST!

  289. #291 Narad
    March 31, 2011

    LOVE AND RESPECT FOR STEVEN BEST!

    Heh. I can’t wait to hear your postmodern analysis of paintball, Cap’n.

  290. #292 ktesibios
    March 31, 2011

    Softie, one of the kittehs who own me, is alive and able to demand that I hurry it up with her noms because of medications (prednisone and antibiotics) that were tested with animals. Indeed, veterinarians, whose professional lives are devoted to preventing and alleviating animal suffering, could not know how to use medications eeffectively to treat illness in different species were it not for animal research.

    I am able to get up and get her her noms after having had an ischemic stroke largely because of a drug- heparin- which was not only tested on animals but is derived from animals.

    So, sean- if you ever experience having a companion animal whom you love suddenly taken seriously ill and hear her giving the ‘Daddy help me!” cry, will you just let her die in pain and fear rather than make use of knowledge derived from animal research to save her? And if you also have my experience of losing control of an entire side of your body and falling to the ground and injuring yourself, shall we just leave you on the sidewalk, bleeding and paralyzed?

    Or will you learn how to balance cost and benefit in place of a rigid, fundamentalist-absolutist conception of morality/

  291. #293 ithinktoomuch
    March 31, 2011

    “and sorry if i’m not up to date on my online lingo, i thought a troll was somebody everybody picked on” -Sean Michael

    Troll: One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. ‘you’re nothing but a fanboy’ is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevance to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue. – Urban Dictionary

    Also, Sean is evil for wanting to forcibly test drugs on murderers and rapists for many reasons. But I would like to point out that not all people convicted of rape or murder are guilty of that. In fact, the state of Illinois put a moratorium on their death penalty executions for a few years after they did DNA tests on all relevant evidence and found out that it cleared 10% of their death row inmates. Death is irreversible, and certainty is hard. Sean should be working to abolish the death penalty around the world, not screwing around with scientists over animals. Or at least he should devote his time to the REAL problems facing animals in the world today, such as poaching and illegal pets.

  292. #294 Rogue Epidemiologist
    March 31, 2011

    I’m going to ask this unironically because it came to mind after following the same covered-in-animal-rights-slogans van twice to work this week:

    How far down the cladogram will animal rights zealots defend? They acted swiftly and harshly against a girl who works in a Drosophila lab. One girl I know who works for THE big animal rights org got bent out of shape when I described some reserach I did in college in a C. elegans lab.

    But would the AR folks kill mosquitoes (I’m covered in mosquito bites at the moment, had to kill several that were trying to feed off my leg)? How about killing roaches and vermin in their vegan restaurants? What about taking anti-helminthic medications in case of parasite infestations? Or killing scabies and lice (head, pubes, whatever)?

    Where is the line drawn? Do they only care about mammals? Charismatic species? Or will they defend all members of Kindom Animalia?

  293. #295 Leni
    March 31, 2011

    he’s teaching your kids.

    So? Is that supposed to be frightening or something?

    I don’t have kids but if I did, I wouldn’t care. He wouldn’t be the first academic that had, shall we say, nonconformist opinions. And, so long as people like you don’t get their way, he won’t be the last.

  294. #296 LW
    March 31, 2011

    “Or will they defend all members of Kindom Animalia?”

    They certainly won’t defend any members of Homo sapiens other than themselves.

  295. #297 DuWayne
    March 31, 2011

    sean michaels –

    he’s teaching your kids.

    You’re correct actually, he is. My eldest (nine) and I spent a couple hours watching a couple of Best’s performances and breaking it down. We explored his rhetorical devices, logical fallacies and how he carefully avoids explicit statements. Best is dangerous and obsessed with a cause that affords him power. That is not to say that he isn’t a True Believer – he most certainly is. But he became a True Believer, only after he had moved through several other radical postmodernist movements – movements he subsequently threw under a bus.

    Best is a vile excuse for a human being, but he is also a master of rhetoric. He is every bit the equal of the greatest of tent revivalists and televangelists. He was a very useful tool for helping me teach my eldest about the dangers of listening to people who make powerful appeals to emotion – to help him understand that simply because someone has the ability to evoke an emotional response, doesn’t make them right.

    At the same time, we also talked about the animal rights movement, versus animal welfare. And because we were discussing appeals to emotion, we also watched and discussed some video of Billy Graham – discussing the similarities between Graham and Best’s rhetorical styles. We then discussed the actual content of their respective messages and what those messages imply.

    So yes, Best was a very useful teacher for my oldest. He will probably still make a useful teacher for my three year old, when he gets a little older and can parse nuance better.

  296. #298 Markita Lynda: Anti-Abortion = Pro-Death
    March 31, 2011

    Sean reminds me that 73.6% of statistics are made up.

  297. #299 Militant Agnostic
    March 31, 2011

    novalox

    Whoops, sorry about that. Hopefully, Militant Agnostic doesn’t take too much offense at that.

    I do take offense. Honour must be satisfied. Pistols Flaming strawmen at dawn.

  298. #300 Poodle Stomper
    March 31, 2011

    Rogue Epidemiologist,

    But would the AR folks kill mosquitoes (I’m covered in mosquito bites at the moment, had to kill several that were trying to feed off my leg)? How about killing roaches and vermin in their vegan restaurants? What about taking anti-helminthic medications in case of parasite infestations? Or killing scabies and lice (head, pubes, whatever)?

    You know I wondered the same thing. If the use of fruit flies is against their beliefs, should the use of cotton likewise be murder? How many innocent insects get CRUSHED ALIVE (VIVISECTION!!!!! ZOMG) inside the machines used to harvest cotton? At least the drosophila get a bit of FlyNap(tm) to put them into a blissful sleep.

    How about it Sean? Do you murder mosquitoes by crushing them alive? Do you encourage the murder of insects through the use of crop-harvesting machines? Do you drive a car at high speeds down highways (how many innocent insects have you slowly murdered using your windshield)? The law may say all those things are OK but by NIO standards you are a vile murderer and vivisectionist. I hope you will do the right thing and turn yourself in to them for punishment.

  299. #301 lilady
    March 31, 2011

    Or, hookworms and tapeworms in people and animals…or do the wackos consider them to be symbiotic?

    Hi to ktsebios and best wishes to you and Kitty…for a steady recovery.

  300. #302 JohnV
    April 1, 2011

    @lilady

    Dr. Gordon would probably tell us they were symbiotic :p

  301. #303 lilady
    April 1, 2011

    You guys are having all the fun on Orac’s Dr. Jay blog…which I cannot get on…for some reason…possibly because I am laptop skills deficient.

    I assume I won’t have to wait too long for a Dr. Jay comment…like a moth to the flame…I want a piece of that action.

  302. #304 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 1, 2011

    I find I was not entirely accurate. There is 200 proof food grade ethanol. That is what I get when I try to work from memory of my undergraduate days. My apologies to all.

  303. #305 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 1, 2011

    Sean Michael,

    In all seriousness, do you feel you have accomplished something substantive here?
    You posted a list of items that has been dismissed as inaccurate, irrelevant, and unsupported by fact. You expressed the opinion that “torturing and killing” animals was bad regardless of the purpose, but haven’t defended that view with either fact or cogent argument. You’ve used the stirring rhetoric of the violent revolutionary, but when pressed have avoided the actions those words imply. You even, apparently, use the word “vivisection” improperly. As best as I can tell, you have not converted anyone to your cause, inspired anyone to renounce animal research, or caused someone who uses animals in research to quake in terror. Indeed, it doesn’t even appear you’ve helped your modelling career either – if given a chance, I for one will recommend against hiring you (don’t laugh).
    Besides stirring the pot and getting some attention, did you accomplish anything? Really – I’d like to understand.
    Thanks in advance.

  304. #306 lilady
    April 1, 2011

    You bet there is 200 proof alcohol. I had it in Puerto Rico and in Maryland with my cousin years ago; the guys there would mix it with pineapple juice.

    I myself prefer Smirnoff 100 proof vodka when I brew up my cranberry-orange booze in large vats. I get many invitations to holiday parties when I share the brew with my friends.

  305. #307 TylerD
    April 1, 2011

    Hey sean I wanna know if you’ve got any more cool videos like the one upthread where the baboon gets it’s head knocked around. That was some pretty funny shit.

  306. #308 sean michael
    April 1, 2011

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SirWRwVyHQ&feature=fvst

    they’re watching, and with axe, drill or crow bar…they’re coming through your door.

    HEROES!

  307. #309 Narad
    April 1, 2011

    they’re watching, and with axe, drill or crow bar…they’re coming through your door.

    I was just thinking to myself that what this thread has been lacking is a proper projective rape fantasy.

  308. #310 Chris
    April 1, 2011

    So, Sean, are you going to that protest tomorrow… the one that happened on March 25th?

  309. #311 sean michael
    April 1, 2011

    it’s been every friday and saturday for the last 5 weeks. check the blog again.

    you guys are reaching pretty hard now.

    yes you fucking idiot, tomorrow i’m showing up to a protest that happened on the 25th. wow.

  310. #312 Poodle Stomper
    April 1, 2011

    Sean, you never answered whether you murder mosquitoes that land on you. Do you? How is that better or more acceptable than fruit flies?

  311. #313 triskelethecat
    April 1, 2011

    @sean: sorry, I can’t come to your party. I’m on the opposite side of the United States and I have one of those things known as a real job.

    @lilady: OOOOHHHH! I wanna be your new bestest friend forever. That sounds like a REALLY awesome drink and I can kill all the bacteria in my system with it and REALLY upset poor little sean. Murder of living creatures! Oh the horrors! (Seriously, next time I’m on Island, we should try to meet. It would be fun). Don’t know why you can’t access the Dr Jay post.

  312. #314 herr doktor bimler
    April 1, 2011

    all members of Kindom Animalia?

    Most appropriate typo evah.

  313. #315 triskelethecat
    April 1, 2011

    @lilady: don’t worry about the Dr Jay thread. Just looked at it and it’s simply people playing with the Thing troll. Nothing exciting, trust me. Dr Jay has run away, Augie is silent and Chris, Gray Falcon, and others are simply batting the troll around the floor.

  314. #316 Amenhotepstein
    April 1, 2011

    Awright, Orac, you can come clean now. PZ is out as being Cuttlefish, so you can admit that you’re “sean michael” now. It was fun while it lasted, creating a troll of such breathtaking insipidity and brainlessness, but the party’s over! Many of us weren’t buying it from the start; no human being could exhibit such callousness regarding the lives of their fellows, no one but a sociopath would advocate medical experiments on prisoners (see Mengene, Josef).

    So c’mon now, admit it, “sean michael” isn’t real… right???

  315. #317 Andreas Johansson
    April 1, 2011

    Rogue Epidemiologist wrote:

    Or will they defend all members of Kindom Animalia?

    FWIW, IME they tend to be vaguely aware at best of invertebrates. If pressed, they’re likely to insist that fruit flies have a right to life too, flatly refuse to answer about intestinal worms, and believe corals to be plants.

    Tangentially, I’ve asked a few why the cut-off for rights should be animals particularly – why not restrict it to bilaterians, say, or extend it to all eukaryotes? – but never gotten an answer.

  316. #318 Chris
    April 1, 2011

    silly sean:

    it’s been every friday and saturday for the last 5 weeks. check the blog again.

    I did, idiot. The new page was posted after I posted, and the previous ones were posted a day or so earlier… so you are just working with your other idiots. I also looked for news coverage, and found exactly nothing.

    You are not making much of a splash.

  317. #319 Anglachel the Common Sense Pagan
    April 1, 2011

    Wow Sean, just wow! Your comments are so full of illogic and burning stupid that my poor Aspie mind just can’t handle it! You see here Orac likes to deal in two things, facts, and logic!

    Fact: something that truly exists or happens : something that has actual existence

    Logic: Valid reasoning

    I can see how these two concepts are so hard for you to understand, being a model, which requires no real intelligence. But some words of advice. Don’t try to debate or argue with those who are clearly better educated and of higher intelligence than you are. We can and will kick your sorry a$$ all over this blog.

    And those here can do that using those two concepts you have so much difficulty in understanding, facts, and logic.

    That is all, for now.

  318. #320 Prometheus
    April 1, 2011

    I’ll have to admit that it’s been fun watching “sean michael” tie himself into knots trying to be self-consistent in his “animal rights” nonsense. Unfortunately, he’s now descended into middle-school insults and faint attempts at taunting. Not so much fun – I can get those from my kids without turning on the computer.

    While I am all for animal welfare (I support a cat) and would vigorously oppose animal cruelty (i.e. cruelty to animals), the idea of animal rights strikes me as ludicrous.

    If animals are to have rights, then they need to also have responsibilities. And I’m not talking about fetching the paper or cleaning their own litter-box. If animals have rights, then they also need to be held accountable for their actions.

    If animals have rights, then when my cat kills a mouse, he has violated that mouse’s right to live (surely the most fundamental of rights) and deserves to be punished. Assuming that the facts of the rodenticide are not in question, my cat should be incarcerated. As a repeat offender (my cat has killed over a dozen mice in his lifetime), my cat would be a candidate for life-imprisonment or even execution (perhaps by a 30-’06 at 400 yeards).

    If, on the other hand, we are to grant animals rights without responsibilities, what then are we to do about animals that become dangerous? What about the rogue dog (or wild wolf or coyote) who is killing sheep or even deer and antelope? Since rabies is a disease, not a moral failing, do we not “put down” rabid foxes and skunks?

    These are the issues that the “animal rights activists” don’t want to address, most probably because their agenda really has nothing to do with “animal rights” and has everything to do with venting their anger at society over things unrelated to animals. For some, the “animal rights” movement has merely given them an opportunity to satisfy their deep-seated need to do violence.

    Getting back to “sean michael”. His violent rhetoric and imagery coupled with his interest in fantasy violence marks him as one of the latter group – those who have a need to do violence. In earlier times, he might have sublimated that by hunting or joining the armed forces, but those are two activities that are out of vogue in his social circles, so he pretends to shoot other people and vicariously enjoys the violence perpetrated by his “heroes” in the “animal rights” movement.

    That the people in the “animal rights” movement are cowards is not in question. If they really wanted to have an impact on the “exploitation” of animals, they’d be doing their “direct action” on ranches and slaughterhouses. However, people on ranches have guns and are likely to use them and the folks who work at slaughterhouses aren’t likely to be intimidated by a bunch of Birkenstock-wearing “radicals”. So, they go after the “soft underbelly” where they are less likely to be killed or severely beaten but also have a negligible effect on the number of animals killed by humans.

    I work in a university where animal research is done. All of the animals killed in a year by all of the animal researchers on campus don’t amount to the number of animals killed in a single day by a single Iowa slaughterhouse. Yet, the universities are where the “animal rights” cowards focus their attention.

    So, “sean michael”, when they’ve shut down animal research and all of the benefits that derive from it, will your “animal rights” heroes take on the rancher, hunters and slaughterhouses? Of will they (as I suspect) merely shift to harassing people doing plant research (the dreaded GMO’s!) or microbiology? Will we next be hearing about how “cruel” it is to the bacteria?

    I suspect – as I’ve outlined above – that this isn’t about the poor animals but about people feeling disconnected from society (a common malady among teens and twenty-somethings) and people looking for a somewhat socially-acceptable outlet for their violent impulses. Even if the world was 100% vegan and “exploitation-free”, they’d have to find something that warranted fire-bombing, death threats and vandalism.

    Prometheus

  319. #321 Composer99
    April 1, 2011

    Prometheus:

    As a past cat-owner, allow me:

    I support am an indentured servant to a cat

  320. #322 Poodle Stomper
    April 1, 2011

    If animals are to have rights, then they need to also have responsibilities. And I’m not talking about fetching the paper or cleaning their own litter-box. If animals have rights, then they also need to be held accountable for their actions.

    If what I’ve seen with cats and rodents is any indication, cats should most definitely be considered for punishment for vivisection as I’ve seen many use their claws and teeth to rip apart a conscious mouse. I hope Sean gets to work on those vile cats ASAP!

  321. #323 Kristen
    April 1, 2011

    Best is a vile excuse for a human being, but he is also a master of rhetoric. He is every bit the equal of the greatest of tent revivalists and televangelists. He was a very useful tool for helping me teach my eldest about the dangers of listening to people who make powerful appeals to emotion – to help him understand that simply because someone has the ability to evoke an emotional response, doesn’t make them right.

    DuWayne, I shall be using this strategy with my children as they get older. I don’t think there is anything more important we can teach our children than critical thinking (although the “appeal to emotion” fallacy shouldn’t be very effective on the two with autism). Thank you for the idea.

    Prometheus,
    I grew up on a small ranch (just our family, not industrial) in Colorado and I don’t recall any AR idiots bothering us, or any other ranchers I knew. And you are right, my father taught me how to use a firearm when I was twelve (when dad was away shoot in the air in case of emergency). There would be no “liberating” of our animals, and I can’t really picture a rancher being easily intimidated.

    We cared for our animals, spent every minute of every day working to care for them. When AR people “liberate” animals they let them fend for themselves. This is cruelty because captive bred and domesticated animals need humans to care for them.

    Although I am curious how Sean would have felt checking on the horses and finding one torn to pieces by a bear. Is that murder, or okay? And had we been there to protect our horse by shooting the bear, is that murder? Why?

    I know he won’t answer these or any other questions. They challenge his nirvana-like perfect animal behavior ideals.

  322. #324 Beamup
    April 1, 2011

    I’ve occasionally wondered whether AR extremists are similar to Marxists. In particular, Marx basically argued that as soon as the proper governmental system was in place, human behavior would change drastically and motivations would be entirely different. Do AR extremists think that, once humans stop doing such nasty evil things, animals will all suddenly start getting along in perfect harmony instead of killing each other off left and right?

  323. #325 DuWayne
    April 1, 2011

    Kristen –

    I think it is critically important – especially as an atheist raising two boys, by himself in the midwest. I would note that my boys have a fundamentalist, borderline cultist for a grandmother – whom they spend a lot of time with. It also comes hand in hand with admitting that I was wrong, every time I am made aware that I said something that was inaccurate to my children.

    I have to admit though, that that particular discussion was most exciting because he really got it. He was all about asking great questions and even questioning my responses to those questions. Most importantly, he was aware that he got it. Due to some incomprehensibly horrifying crap he has had to deal with over the last two years, his self esteem has been beaten to shit – especially in terms of his intellect. So managing a major intellectual coup like that was huge for him.

    I also throw logical fallacies at him a few times a week as well, something he loves, because he has gotten to where he catches better than two thirds fo them.

    I would suggest though, that there is a lot of fun stuff you can do even when they are quite young. After it happened on accident, I found science picture books that contained outdated, or otherwise inaccurate information. We generally like to look up more information about a lot of the things we read about and it is really great when you end up with a four year old who understands that science is self-correcting.

  324. #326 sean michael
    April 1, 2011

    Walter’s Final Statement to the Court at his Sentencing:

    I’m here today because I burnt down the Sheepskin Factory in Glendale, CO, a business that sells pelts, furs and other dead animal skins. I know many people think I should feel remorse for what I’ve done. I guess this is the customary time where I’m suppose to grovel and beg for mercy. I assure you, if that’s how I felt, I would. But I am not sorry for anything I have done. Nor am I frightened by this court’s authority because any system of law that values the rights of the oppressor over the down trodden is an unjust system. And though this court has real and actual power, I question its morality. I doubt the court is interested in the precautions that I took to not harm any person or by-stander and even less concerned with the miserable lives that sheep, cows and mink had to endure, unto death, so that a Colorado business could profit from their confinement, enslavement, and murder.

    Obviously, the owners and employees of the sheepskin factory do not care either or they would not be involved in such a sinister and macabre blood trade. So I will not waste my breath where it will only fall on deaf ears. That’s why I turned to illegal direct action to begin with, because you do not care. No matter how much we animal rights activists talk or reason with you, you do not care. Well, Mr. Livaditis (owner of the Sheepskin Factory), I don’t care about you. There is no common ground between people like you and me. I want you to know that no matter what this court sentences me to today, you have won nothing! Prison is no great hardship to me. In a society that values money over life, I consider it an honor to be a prisoner of war, the war against inter-species slavery and objectification! I also want you to know that I will never willingly pay you one dollar, not one! I hope your business fails and you choke to death on every penny you profit from animal murder! I hope you choke on it and burn in hell!

    To my supporters, I wish to say thank you for standing behind me and showing this court and these animal exploiters that we support our own and that we as a movement are not going to apologize for having a sense of urgency. We are not going to put the interests of commerce over sentience! And we will never stop educating, agitating and confronting those responsible for the death of our Mother Earth and her Animal Nations. My vegan sisters and brothers, our lives are not our own. Selfishness is the way of gluttons, perverts and purveyors of injustice. It has been said all it takes for evil to conquer is for good people to do nothing. Conversely, all it takes to stop the enslavement, use, abuse and murder of other than human animals is the resolve to fight on their behalf!

    Do what you can, do what you must, be vegan warriors and true animal defenders and never compromise with their murderers and profiteers. The Animal Liberation Front is the answer. Seldom has there been such a personally powerful and internationally effective movement in human history. You cannot join the A.L.F. but you can become the A.L.F. And it was the proudest and most powerful thing I have ever done. When you leave this courtroom today don’t be dismayed by my incarceration. All the ferocity and love in my heart still lives on. Every time someone liberates an animal and smashes their cage, it lives on! Every time an activist refuses to bow down to laws that protect murder, it lives on! And it lives on every time the night sky lights up ablaze with the ruins of another animal exploiters’ business!

    That’s all Your Honor, I am ready to go to prison.

  325. #327 Prometheus
    April 1, 2011

    Composer99,

    Thank you, I stand corrected (because the cat is sitting in my/his seat).

    Kristen,

    I also grew up on a ranch, which is why I knew what the most probable response would be to a band of loonies trying to run off the cattle (or sheep, goats, alpacas, etc.). “sean michael” writes like someone who has had minimal exposure to animal behavior (apart from humans). He’s like the “nature worshipers” we used to have to rescue after they found out that “Nature” isn’t like Disneyland.

    Prometheus

  326. #328 Sauceress
    April 1, 2011

    I have a question for sean.
    Does your modelling agency actively verify, and guarantee, that the dyes in the clothes you model (also the make up you wear) are not tested on animals?
    Can you yourself guarantee that everything you wear has not been tested on animals during its production? Do you obtain verifiable evidence that this is indeed the case?

  327. #329 sean michael
    April 1, 2011

    I will no longer be addressing any questions until ORAC stops blocking my posts.

  328. #330 Narad
    April 1, 2011

    I will no longer be addressing any questions until ORAC stops blocking my posts.

    This should be good.

  329. #331 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    April 1, 2011

    Sean Michael,
    I am not Orac and do not speak for him. From previous comments, he typically does not block posts without good cause and informing the blockee. Sometimes the spam filter will hold your post until he can release it; as he has a real job, this may not happen immediately. Nobody quite knows what triggers the spam filter, though particular phrases, “too many” posts in too short a time, and excessive links can do so. Orac does not, as I understand it, control the spam filter.

  330. #332 Dedj
    April 1, 2011

    “I will no longer be addressing any questions until ORAC stops blocking my posts.”

    How coincidental that you’ve managed to find a justification for a pre-exisiting behaviour.

    Tip: you need to start at post #6 and onwards.

  331. #333 Composer99
    April 1, 2011

    sean michael says:

    I will no longer be addressing any questions until ORAC stops blocking my posts.

    Really? I wasn’t aware he was addressing any questions at all.

  332. #334 ArtK
    April 1, 2011

    @Sean:

    tomorrow.

    let’s see how many of you show up.

    Friday, April 1: Meet at Westfield Century City Shopping Mall (in front of Gelson’s Grocery) at 12:30PM SHARP. The parking garage is located off of Century Park Wy and Constellation Blvd, across from the MGM building.

    Darn… that’s what I get for not reading Orac until the afternoon. Gonna repeat this “event” again, Sean? I could use some laughs.

    @Gray Falcon

    If you’re truly out for justice, Mr. Micheal, why aren’t you in Bangkok, dealing with animal smugglers? Or Kenya, fighting poachers? Why are you only threatening college professors by proxy instead of taking on organized crime head on?

    Simply because those people have real guns and aren’t reluctant to use them on anyone who gets in their way. Sean would prefer to sit on the sidelines applauding (but not “promoting” – goodness to mercy, no) threats of violence against people who aren’t able to fight back.

    *sigh* It’s spring break and the 6-9yo crowd playing outside of my office sounds more mature than Sean.

  333. #335 Narad
    April 1, 2011

    Sean would prefer to sit on the sidelines applauding (but not “promoting” – goodness to mercy, no) threats of violence against people who aren’t able to fight back.

    Or, apparently, actually doing anything practical regarding this cause to which he is so voyeuristically committed. Then again, I wouldn’t actually want this asshole anywhere near the inside of a shelter.

  334. #336 Heliantus
    April 1, 2011

    @ Beamup

    I’ve occasionally wondered whether AR extremists are similar to Marxists.

    Look at Sean’s quote of “Walter’s Final Statement to the Court at his Sentencing” and replace keywords like animal/vegan by the equivalent keywords of any extreme ideology of your choice. You will get the typical final statement of someone having broken the law in the name of said ideology.

    There are similarities, that’s for sure.
    You don’t have to replace “oppressor”. This word is always there.

  335. #337 Sauceress
    April 1, 2011

    #329

    I will no longer be addressing any questions until ORAC stops blocking my posts.

    I smell your cop out Sean. You could have answered yes or no to my questions in far less words than the response/excuse you gave. If Orac is blocking your posts, how is it that #329 appeared?
    Dodging the question more likely. I’m pretty sure I already know the answer. I know quite a bit about clothing manufacture seeing as I’m a qualified pattern maker and I worked in the industry before I returned to uni to study science.
    You’re just another animal rights hypocrite. All wank and no substance!

  336. #338 Militant Agnostic
    April 2, 2011

    I doubt the court is interested in the precautions that I took to not harm any person or by-stander

    I wonder what precautions “Walter” took to make sure no firefighters were at risk of a wall falling on them or getting caught in a flashover.

  337. #339 Steelclaws
    April 2, 2011

    #338

    I wonder what precautions “Walter” took to make sure no firefighters were at risk of a wall falling on them or getting caught in a flashover.

    Militant Agnostic,

    Animal rights terrorists do not take even precautions to make sure no animals are hurt in their arson attacks:

    “UPDATE 1 – Arson – Highgate Farm, Highgate Lane, Normanby-by-Spital – Incident 42 of 19 July 2010 Officers investigating the arson at Highgate Farm as seen below, have arrested two men on suspicion of arson and blackmail. The men arrested are a 25 year-old man from London and a 25 year-old man from Driffield North Humberside. They were detained earlier today and remain in custody.We are now able to reveal that eight rabbits died in the blaze at the farm on Monday 19th July. The animals were in the rear of the van which was destroyed in the arson attack.”
    http://www.lincs.police.uk/News-Centre/Media-Briefings/Archive/29-07-2010-Media-Briefing.html

    It’s never been about animals, it’s all about frustration and a wish to lash out at someone. Were it not animal rights, it would be some other “cause”, or rather some other excuse.

  338. #340 Pareidolius
    April 2, 2011

    Zoolander @, well, too many to count . . .

    No shit nobody goes to the Roosevelt anymore (that’s some sad Lohan/Hilton-era shit). Well, nobody except goodlooking wannabes. I think you might actually be an ARA, since you seem to be completely humor impaired.

    So I suppose you’re thowing punches at Cabana or Element with your Prius in the goldzone out front. I doubt you could get into either one of them seeing as you’re 29, which is almost dead in your “industry.”

    And, no honey, I’d never give you an address of any kind. I know what you fucktards do with people’s info. Just meet me at the corner of Lincoln and Loma Alta at midnight tonight and bring your dancing shoes. I mean it. We’re really gonna settle this like totally hawt animal rights activist models. Moonwalk vs. Crunk at 20 paces.

    Crap, I’m so fucking mad I didn’t make you up. Lord Draconis is gonna kill me.

  339. #341 Pareidolius
    April 2, 2011

    And yes dear Sauceress, SM is a triumph of wank over substance, but what magnificent, weapons-grade wank it is!

  340. #342 Militant Agnostic
    April 2, 2011

    Steelyclaws @339

    Animal rights terrorists do not take even precautions to make sure no animals are hurt in their arson attacks:

    Colour me unsurprised. The mink releases pretty much indicated they either didn’t care about the local wildlife or were completely clueless about ecology although for a fur farm mink getting run over by a car versus remaining in captivity is probably six of one and a half dozen of the other. They are certainly clueless about the problems caused by invasive species.

  341. #343 Narad
    April 2, 2011

    I wonder what precautions “Walter” took to make sure no firefighters were at risk of a wall falling on them or getting caught in a flashover.

    Same as in his other arsons, no doubt.

  342. #344 Narad
    April 2, 2011

    Aha, from the February 2011 follow-up article:

    Prosecutor Gregory Holloway … noted that Bond also has prior arson convictions that had nothing to do with animal-rights issues. Holloway said Bond was convicted in Iowa in 1996 for lighting a pentagram on fire inside a church [and] convicted again in 1997 in Iowa for setting fire to a building, an incident that killed a family’s pet.

    That’s our Walter!

  343. #345 lilady
    April 2, 2011

    “Our Walter” is serving five years in the Federal Penitientiary, Golden, Colorado. “Our Walter” is also being investigated by the FBI for two additional fires at the Tandy Leather Factory and the Tiburon Restaurant. His plea for funds for his commissary account in prison and for his defense fund is available on the internet: Walter Edmund Bond Animal Rights Prisoner Support.

    They are all gangbangers, or unemployable “models” in between jobs or psycholpatholigally disordered arsonists such as “our Walter”.

  344. #346 BGT
    April 3, 2011

    Sighs, I am late to the party. I presume Sean is already gone.

    But, from a ballistics point of view, paintballs suck. You really can’t snipe with them since they are smoothbore “weapons”. No rifling = short range.

    Now, for real range you need a rifled weapon. A .243 is pretty good. Heavier bullet than a 5.56mm, longer range. Good for varmint hunting for things like prairie dogs.

    Now the 5.56mm isn’t bad, but it doesn’t have the range and ballistics of the .243.

    I won’t say paintball isn’t good for training, since it is for CQB, but I don’t think Sean knows a damn thing about CQB. He can keep his smoothbore.

  345. #347 BGT
    April 3, 2011

    One last thing about 400 yards….
    with a smoothbore @ 400 yards the target can sit there and laugh at the shooter.

    I doubt Sean is much better with a scoped rifle either. 400 yards takes patience and some ballistics training. I doubt he has either.

  346. #348 Pareidolius
    April 3, 2011

    Zoolander, where were you tonight? The skeptic posse was out in force and we had Tecate in the cooler, skrillex on the boombox but we were missing one vital, batshit crazy ingredient. Our dance-off was minus one goodlooking, totally rad, supermodel, paintball-captain, chick-dousing, animal-avenger dude. We danced anyway. I would have destroyed you with my awesome Crunk, so it’s just as well you bailed. And dude, the recoil from a thirty ought six would blow your spindly ass back into yesterday.

  347. #349 sean michael
    April 3, 2011

    hahahaha!!

    “tecate in the cooler”

    so ghetto.

    oh, I had to dj last night.

    why don’t you just come to the club i do? that way you can hang with some hot girls before you get lit the fuck up. I’ll even give you some drink tickets, so you can drink off the top shelf.

  348. #350 D. C. Sessions
    April 3, 2011

    SM, if you still haven’t gotten a clue: we might take you and the others seriously if you actually took on Tyson Foods, or Hormel, or any of the other animal “mass murderers.” But you won’t, because reducing animal suffering isn’t what you’re about. And it shows, but you’re nowhere near self-honest enough to confront that fact.

    There’s at least a vaguely plausible case against mass consumption of meat — but that’s not the ego boost you get from threatening the children of people who are working to save lives, now is it?

  349. #351 D. C. Sessions
    April 3, 2011

    I’m in Altadena shithead. Let’s dance…

    Very nice David Weber reference, Pareidolius, but I doubt that they are clueful enough to get it.

  350. #352 Pareidolius
    April 3, 2011

    But I was, and we did, and I must sheepishly admit that I have no clue as to who David Weber was before I looked him up on google just now.

    Back in NorCal now. I’ll miss you Sean Michael, I think it could have been a little slice of magic, you and I, n’était-ce pas?

  351. #353 D. C. Sessions
    April 3, 2011

    I’m having a blast here imagining SM and his associates trying to intimidate the Apache I shared a hospital room with last week. Little guy — maybe 5’4″, 120 pounds soaking wet. Skin looked like old tanned leather even though he was (at a guess) in his mid-40s — hard to tell with people like him, he could as easily have been 70.

    He was in for a tibial fracture, a messy one. He got the same titanium fixup that I had three years ago. He broke the leg when his horse came over backwards on him after a wild bull took exception to his being around. Another time, he’d been gored in the face, and another left him with plates and screws in the other leg.

    He was up and around with a walker and couldn’t wait to go home, and you could tell that orders to avoid weight bearing or not, it was going to be hard keeping him off of that leg. Our doc just looked after him as he left and said he’d be back. Riding for cattle is what he lives for. Puma, bear, elk, wild bulls — they’re just part of being out there in the mountains on a horse. Someday he just won’t come back.

    And SM thinks that he’s going to be intimidated?

  352. #354 D. C. Sessions
    April 3, 2011

    Dude! You mean that perfect comment was totally accidental?

    I’m in awe.

    For those who need a hint, “Let’s dance!” is the battle cry of the Audubon Ballroom — a fictional antislavery “direct action” group composed mostly of former slaves.

  353. #355 Tsu Dho Nimh
    April 4, 2011

    Sean Michael … OK, you are against using animals in research, but that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

    Are you willing to put your life on the line and refuse ALL established medical procedures that use animals or animal-derived reagents?

    Here’s a partial list of them:
    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/678865/vegan_beware_animal_products_used_in.html

  354. #356 Tsu Dho Nimh
    April 4, 2011

    @43 lillady …

    Ether was originally tested on chickens by Paracelsus.

  355. #357 Anglachel the Common Sense Pagan
    April 4, 2011

    Tsu Dho Nimh, that..was..BEAUTIFUL!!! I followed your link and read the article and I couldn’t help but cackle with glee! For the truth is, there is not much in this world medically that hasn’t been touched by animal testing. That includes vetinary medicine, for all those animal rights activists out there!!

  356. #358 RobertC
    April 4, 2011

    Know what I know about animal study usefulness?

    Vivien Thomas, Drs Blalock and Taussig developed Blue Baby operations on dogs.

    The surgeons who saved my sons life and have made hom thrive learned from that. In case of the older ones, directly from Dr Thomas.

    Before that, now commonly repaired heart defects were a death sentence. Truncus arteriosus was too complex to even consider for many years. Now it is repaired soon after birth and the kids thrive.

    Sure, there are setbacks, deaths, and complications even today. But most do very well.

    All enabled by work on dogs.

    If you don’t like animal testing, then forgo treatments derived from it. If enough people do that, the testing will end peacefully when the market for the results dries up.

    Meanwhile, given that humane treatment (as much as possible) is provided to lab animals, all arguments to the contrary fail.

  357. #359 LisaG
    April 6, 2011

    DARE TO COMMENT HERE!

    http://negotiationisover.com/2011/04/06/war-on-student-vivisectors-victories-helpful-insights-from-the-enemy/

    Also, please don’t forget to tell everyone about our next protest at Alpha Genesis on April 16th.

    Thanks for all your help :)

    @Avicenna
    If people in this world disagree with everything else, no one can disagree with Camille’s words the time for civil discourse has expired. We are no longer going to do the same things activists did 25 years ago when animals are still experimented on. Logic or Terrorism?

    When people are really really REALLY means to you and hurt your feelings but not you, it’s just opinion and the first amendment protects that. Let’s not forget, you guys are sadists so it’s easy to see why your own activities could incite these reactions. That’s the reason virtually no law enforcement in our country would jail us let alone call us terrorists. Simply we are not. We have hurt no one and we aren’t sought as criminals. You can say that you feel as scared as you would if real terrorists talked about you, but that’s still not a crime. If I tell you- and I do here and now- that you are so evil that you’ll pay dearly for it, still not against the law. And as any law enforcement agency will tell you, it’s laughable that you think otherwise.

    You know, you didn’t every have to alert any law enforcement agencies. They have been here the whole time- hopefully taking YOUR names and numbers!

    Harassment as you define it, in your opinion, might be against the law at some point but we have never done that. You can argue and whine and tell everyone in the barnyard that the sky is falling but your words are in direct contradiction with how law enforcement treats us. Let me say that again only clearer. All US 3-letter agencies are trained and educated to protect. I don’t always love them, but you really need to humble yourself to their skills, just a little. THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED. They check in on us occasionally here but I’m kind of glad- they’ll keep us safe from you guys, LOL! You can post all over the place that there are terrorists running free threatening you guys- that is your first amendment right. But you must know at some point if people who are smarter and highly trained and specialize don’t agree with you, are you kind of acting like a fool? So what are YOU saying to these agencies that need you guys so badly to help them? That they aren’t trained and not doing their jobs, letting terrorists openly prey on US citizens? What you’re doing will work for awhile- and I commend you on your action planning skills. Especially after a bunch of you guys devised that survival plan. You definitely have them scared anyway. I cannot imagine though, no matter what more you say or write, why no one of and intelligence or importance is acting on your words and ideas. Probablly for the same reason they don’t act on ours. And that is how any idot can tell we’re not terrorists.

    Well I’m off to finish our ideas and flyers targeting the FL DEP for the Paynes Prairie animals. And targeting UF for refusing to release public records. And targeting the current congressional session on cutting funding for animal experimentation. And targeting Alpha Genesis in SC. Hey! Maybe you should call FBI agents you told about the NIO terrorists and warn them that we are coming for Alpha Genesis April 16th.

  358. #360 Gray Falcon
    April 6, 2011

    LisaG, do you remember this passage:

    Every time a vivisector’s car or home — and, eventually, the abuser him/herself — blows up, flames of liberation light up the sky. And now we have a golden opportunity to begin to destroy the foundations upon which Bogus Big Pharma and the academic-industrial complex rest — the vivisection research model can be made unworkable and obsolete.

    If this doesn’t suggest incitement to violence, I don’t know what does.

  359. #361 Heliantus
    April 6, 2011

    @ LisaG

    Where are you, you and all you self-righteous friends, when this happens?

    (caveat lurkers, shocking videos)
    It’s worse than anything scientists do to animals, even in your dreams.

    And don’t tell me it’s too far away for you to do anything about it. They are importing and selling the bloody stuff in the US, dammit. And I don’t use “bloody” as a figure of speech.

The site is undergoing maintenance presently. Commenting has been disabled. Please check back later!