It’s that time of year again!

No, I’m not referring to the unofficial start of summer here in the U.S., namely the Memorial Day holiday, although that is fast approaching. In fact, it’s only five days away. No, I’m referring to something that, beginning today, will blight my favorite metro area (Chicago) for the next few days. I’m referring to the anti-vaccine quackfest that starts this morning in Lombard, IL and is known as Autism One. As long as I can remember blogging (OK, maybe for the last four or five years), as Memorial Day rolls around, I can’t help but get that sinking feeling as the vaccine rejectionists, conspiracy mongers, and believers in the scientifically discredited notion that vaccines cause autism springs into action, to be topped off (usually) with a keynote address by Jenny McCarthy herself.

Given the ubiquity of its quackery, every year I’m usually mildly curious enough to see what the quackery de l’année is each year. So, in honor of Autism One, let’s peruse the Autism One speaker list and see what we find.

First off, I wondered whether, after Mark Geier’s medical license had been suspended in Maryland and David Geier kicked off the Maryland Commission on Autism, Mark and David Geier would still be featured speakers at this yearly quackfest. I needn’t have worried. They’re still there, both Mark and David, and they’re even talking about what they believe to be the role of elevated testosterone in autism. Of course, it is their use and abuse of testosterone that led them to propose chemical castration as a treatment for autism in the first place. It also lead to 2011 being a truly awful year for them thus far – and deservedly so, even though in reality all of this should have happened no later than 2006. In fact, it would appear that Autism One has doubled down on the quackery, even posting a fawning interview with the father-son duo of pseudoscientists.

So how can Autism One top chemical castration as a topic? Easy, try The One Quackery To Rule Them All, courtesy of Julianne Adams:

Even if you are familiar with homeopathy, be prepared to learn something new. As an unlayering process that is a quantum leap beyond the more common forms of homeopathy, the HHM is totally unique application. Based upon the vaccine-injury/biomedical/gut-brain model of autism, HHM offers a comprehensive approach to healing focused on each child’s unique history, challenges and needs. Presented are homeopathy basics, details regarding the HHM, and case studies demonstrating healing and recovery.

You know, when I read the term “quantum leap,” I was worried that Adams was going to go all “quantum” on us, as if homeopathy isn’t woo enough. It certainly is, if this handout is to be believed. it contains exactly what you would expect: Sympathetic magic, the principle of “like cures like,” the idea that diluting a remedy makes it stronger, even references to the “vital force.” She even uses a term that I hate, a term that is as good an indicator that you’re dealing with a woo-meister as any I can think of, “dis-ease.” I love how she describes the process of succussion, which is the shaking to which homeopaths subject their remedies between each dilution:

Succussion: vigorous shaking with impact between each dilution, brings out the healing action of the substance while eliminating any toxic effects of the original substance

And:

How Homeopathic Remedies Work

  • Dilution/succussion process allows for a transfer of energy and information from the crude substance into the remedy solution
  • Water is able to “copy” and transfer information

She even quotes William Tiller:

Tiller has explained that homeopathic preparations form two main energetic layers that become permanently imprinted into water media; one more superficial, primarily electric and another deeper and more subtle, mainly magnetic layer.

That’s not all the homeopathy there. There’s also Pierre Fontaine speaking about Reversing Autism with Classical Homeopathy: A Real Possibility.

Let’s see. What else can we come up with as far as pseudoscience goes. There’s Amber Brooks speaking on CranioSacral Therapy: Its Role in Autism Recovery & Childhood Development claiming that “CST has been shown to help the individual with autistic features gain a calmer and more relaxed state of being by decreasing structural stress and strain.” Add to that a chiropractor named Charles Chapple speaking on Affecting Sensory Processing, Primitive Reflexes with Chiropractic and Cranial Sacral Therapy.

We also have legal propaganda from Louis Conte, who gets not just one, but three presentations:

  1. Criminal Law, Law Enforcement and Autism
  2. The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program Justice Project
  3. UNANSWERED QUESTIONS FROM THE VACCINE INJURY COMPENSATION PROGRAM: A Review of Compensated Cases of Vaccine-Induced Brain Injury

Of course, this last presentation is about the execrable “study” for which he was a co-author and about which he, like Sergeant Schultz apparently “knows nuttink” about the need for IRB approval for human subjects research. Not surprisingly, the study’s lead author, Mary Holland, will be there too.

I’d go on, but I’m only to “C” in the alphabetical list of authors, and I’m getting tired of the pseudoscience. Mixed in with woo-friendly doctors are a horde of homeopaths, naturopaths, chiropractors, and all manner of “alternative” practitioners. And, of course, Andrew Wakefield is there, no doubt to experience the adulation of the ravening hordes. There’s even Jeff Bradstreet pushing stem cell quackery. I can’t help but think of Kent Heckenlively taking his daughter to Costa Rica to subject her to injections of what are claimed to be stem cells right into her cerebrospinal fluid. To top it all off, there are Nathan Coombs and Rhonda Morris promoting the use of medical cannabis for autism.

I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve said it over the last six years that I’ve been blogging, but vaccine rejectionism is rife with pseudoscience and quackery. It starts out being based on a premise without scientific support, namely the claim that vaccines cause autism and all manner of chronic health problems. Once you start with pseudoscience as the very basis of your world view, it’s not very far at all to other forms of pseudoscience, and from there it’s just a short hop, skip, and a jump to homeopaths. Autistic children deserve better. They deserve to be free from uncontrolled experimentation on them using pseudoscientific methods. Unfortunately that’s what all too many of them are subjected to, and Autism One is not only far more about vaccine rejectionism than it is about autism. Worse, it’s a one-stop shop for anti-vaccine quackery.

Comments

  1. #1 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    Try reading that paper. I’d wager large sums of money the word infection was never used.

    Are you betting that the “serious localised chronic tuberculoid granulomatous reaction” was not caused by M. tuberculosis?

    I knew someone who accidentally stabbed himself with a needle filled with LPS (he lived). Did he infect himself?

    Then name the pathogen from which the LPS was derived.

  2. #2 lilady
    May 27, 2011

    @ Sid Offal…Robert Schecter…or whatever. I take credit for changing your name, because you have written so many scurrilous attacks about Dr. Paul Offit. If you want to stop me from referring to you as Offal…just post under your real name or a name that doesn’t deride our most esteemed physician and researcher in the field of immunology.

    In the meantime, I think Offal is a very descriptive name for the non-scientific drivel that you promote.

  3. #3 Sid Offit
    May 27, 2011

    Doesn’t bother me. Just explaining a point to T-Bruce.

  4. #4 CG
    May 27, 2011

    Are you betting that the “serious localised chronic tuberculoid granulomatous reaction” was not caused by M. tuberculosis?

    Technically it wasn’t. It was caused by killed M. tuberculosis, which isn’t really a pathogen anymore, being that it is dead.

    I am also sure the authors used the actual terminology, unlike you. You’ve already admitted you can have an immune response in the absence of a pathogen. That was an immune response in the absence of an infection and a living pathogen.

    Then name the pathogen from which the LPS was derived.

    E. coli K12, which isn’t a pathogen by any stretch of the imagination. However, it’s LPS is identical to many other strains of E. coli that are. I’m quite curious how your warped mind will handle that.

  5. #5 TBruce
    May 27, 2011

    Doesn’t bother me. Just explaining a point to T-Bruce.

    By that reasoning, I’m sure you would have some nice names for any “insulting” commenters who are African-American or Hispanic.

  6. #6 Lawrence
    May 27, 2011

    Well Sid – people have asked for some background, how measles was viewed in the past, and I thought that report addressed it very well, because it also included quite a bit of data from Western countries as well.

    But, since you obviously can’t read or at minimum comprehend the words put in front of you, I guess it is a moot point.

    Maroon x 2

  7. #7 Todd W.
    May 27, 2011

    @Lawrence

    Hmm…three more and he’ll be Maroon 5.

  8. #8 Lawrence
    May 27, 2011

    Gotta get a bit creative nowadays, sometimes the best labels are the old labels….

  9. #9 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,  

    Technically it wasn’t. It was caused by killed M. tuberculosis, which isn’t really a pathogen anymore, being that it is dead.

    What do you mean? The poor guy technically injected himself with M. tuberculosis which is, by the way, well known to cause tuberculoid granulomatous reaction because such granuloma formation is a hallmark of infection of pathogenic Mycobacteria spp.

     

    You’ve already admitted you can have an immune response in the absence of a pathogen. That was an immune response in the absence of an infection and a living pathogen.

    Fool. There was a pathogen.  Regardless whether the Mycobacteria is killed or live, granuloma formation would depend on the site of infection i.e. cutaneous infection for killed whereas if it’s live then it might involve lymphatic tissues.  Like I said before, the only thing you can do now is to echo your persistent germ-denialism.

    E. coli K12, which isn’t a pathogen by any stretch of the imagination. However, it’s LPS is identical to many other strains of E. coli that are. I’m quite curious how your warped mind will handle that.

    Again. Stop barking up the wrong tree. When will you ever stop humiliating yourself?  The K12 is a nonpathogenic strain of E. coli hence it’s a normal flora. It’s not the “squirrel” you’re looking for. Try E. coli O:157:H7 instead.

  10. #10 dedicated lurker
    May 27, 2011

    Sid, of course you don’t live in Rhodesia. No one lives in Rhodesia, since there’s no country by that name anymore.

  11. #11 dedicated lurker
    May 27, 2011

    Sid, of course you don’t live in Rhodesia. No one lives in Rhodesia, since there’s no country by that name anymore.

  12. #12 CG
    May 27, 2011

    E. coli O:157:H7 instead.

    Which is the organism I actually work with. It was also not the source of the LPS. K12 was. So is being injected with K12 LPS an infection?

    And don’t try to change the subject to another organism again.

  13. #13 Prometheus
    May 27, 2011

    Mentioned above:

    “What do you mean? The poor guy technically injected himself with M. tuberculosis which is, by the way, well known to cause tuberculoid granulomatous reaction because such granuloma formation is a hallmark of infection of pathogenic Mycobacteria spp.”

    While “tuberculoid” granulomas (more typically called “caseating granulomas”) are a “hallmark” of tuberculosis, their presence is not diagnostic of M. tuberculosis nor is their absence evidence that M. tuberculosis is absent. In fact, the same sort of granulomatous reaction can be seen if the purified cell wall and lipids of any of the Mycobacteriaceae are injected under the skin.

    At what point is the “pathogen” so reduced to simple components that it is no longer a “pathogen”? Well, in real microbiology and immunology, once it is dead (i.e. no longer able to maintain metabolic functions and transmembrane gradients), it is no longer a “pathogen”, although (as noted above) it can still trigger a significant immune response.

    Here’s the point that seems to be missed – the immune system doesn’t discriminate between live and dead bacteria; it “sees” only the molecules they are composed of. If those molecules are present (in the same concentrations), the immune reaction will be the same as if the intact organism were present. That is the essence of vaccination.

    “Again. Stop barking up the wrong tree. When will you ever stop humiliating yourself? The K12 is a nonpathogenic strain of E. coli hence it’s a normal flora. It’s not the “squirrel” you’re looking for. Try E. coli O:157:H7 instead.”

    In truth, E. coli K12 isn’t “normal flora” – not anymore. Although it was first isolated (1922) from presumably “normal” flora (in a patient recovering from diphtheria), its long sojourn in the lab has led it to lose some genes (the O antigen genes) and (in many lab strains) the F plasmid and the lambda phage.

    However, the lipopolysaccharide (LPS) of “normal flora” E. coli and the LPS of E. coli O157:H7 will cause the same immune reaction when injected for the simple reason that the immune system responds similarly (and negatively) to all bacterial LPS. The immune system doesn’t “know” that normal gut E. coli are “normal flora” and that E. coli O157:H7 is a “pathogen” because neither are supposed to be in the blood or subcutaneous tissues.

    I haven’t the slightest idea where “Th1Th2” got the notion that dead bacteria and viruses or even fragments or subunits of bacteria and viruses are “pathogens” when injected. It doesn’t make any sense and is – at best – a highly eccentric reading of a very simplistic view of the immune system’s response.

    The immune system pretty much “sees” the world as divided into “self” and “not-self” and reacts against the latter. For some things (e.g. LPS), the response is “hard-wired” to be rather severe, which is why people die of septic shock.

    But, as has been demonstrated repeatedly, the immune system can’t tell if the viral or bacterial antigen is displayed on an intact virus or bacteria or if it is on a styrene bead or the tip of a platinum wire or floating free in the serum – the reaction is the same.

    No doubt, “Th1Th2” will see this as vindicating his/her obtuse view of the immune system, “See, the immune system reacts the same whether the bacteria is living or dead, whole or fragmented, so it’s a ‘pathogen’ no matter what!”. However, the immune system will also react in a similar way to a splinter, a bit of glass or even some of your own tissues (e.g. retina), so are these to be called “pathogens” as well?

    I have no illusion that this will convince “Th1Th2” of the errors of his/her ways, but I hope this will be helpful to any readers who are confused by the argument.

    Prometheus

  14. #14 Gray Falcon
    May 27, 2011

    Also, Th1Th2 still fails to comprehend the fallacy of composition.

  15. #15 augustine
    May 27, 2011

    Jud

    Isn’t Saul of Tarsus a former Pharisee? I’m not asking him for religious advice. He’s a legend in his own mind.

    Which would make him knowledgeable in the Torah.

    Heroin use makes you an infectious disease and vaccine expert? Maybe he had divine intervention from the heroin god that has spurred him on to be passionate about writing books on mass vaccine philosophy.

    Did you know that heroin addicts are not healthy people no matter how much they know about health? I wonder if he was telling his former heroin addict buddies “make sure you get your vaccinations. Those little bugs will kill you. Hey can you hold this for me? Thanks…ahhhhh. Nothing ever bad comes out of a needle. I think I’ll write a book about it.”

  16. #16 Lawrence
    May 27, 2011

    Still can’t admit you were wrong, can you boring troll?

    Run along now – a village somewhere is missing its idiot.

  17. #17 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    Which is the organism I actually work with. It was also not the source of the LPS. K12 was. So is being injected with K12 LPS an infection

    First identify the source. Find the pathogen. K12 is not considered a human pathogen. Will it cause an infection? No.

    And don’t try to change the subject to another organism again.

    And don’t switch those LPS.

  18. #18 Lawrence
    May 27, 2011

    Actually, make that two (or three now, I lost track of all of our current crop of trolls in this thread) villages missing their idiots.

  19. #19 CG
    May 27, 2011

    And don’t switch those LPS.

    I didn’t. Commercially available LPS is always K12. That is what he stuck himself with.

    Was that an infection?

    You say no, since K12 isn’t a pathogen.

    However, EHEC LPS is identical and it is a pathogen (of humans, not cows). So that would be an infection by your definition.

    I just got Thingy to admit that identical molecules know if they are from a human pathogen. I will now stop playing with the troll.

  20. #20 Prometheus
    May 27, 2011

    Wait a second! Did I read that correctly?

    In response to the question:

    “So is being injected with K12 LPS an infection?”

    Th1Th2 answered:

    “First identify the source. Find the pathogen. K12 is not considered a human pathogen. Will it cause an infection? No.”

    So, the immune reaction to E. coli K12 LPS, which will be indistinguishable from the reaction to LPS from E. coli O157:H7, is somehow qualitatively or quantitatively different because E. coli K12 isn’t a “pathogen”? What nonsense!

    Either E. coli K12 or E. coli O157:H7 injected into the body would be pathogens. Even the “normal flora” E. coli are “pathogens” if they are in the tissues or bloodstream.

    I know it’s been said many times before: “Th1Th2” has an internal definition of “pathogen” that differs from that used by the rest of the world.

    Unbelievable!

    Prometheus

  21. #21 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    However, EHEC LPS is identical and it is a pathogen (of humans, not cows). So that would be an infection by your definition.

    Where is this EHEC LPS derived from considering K12 is not EHEC?

  22. #22 CG
    May 27, 2011

    Where is this EHEC LPS derived from considering K12 is not EHEC?

    You’re avoiding the question.

    My original example was someone who stuck himself with K12 LPS.
    You said this is would not be an infection since K12 is not a pathogen.

    However, O157:H7 LPS is identical, yet if he did the same thing with LPS derived from this strain instead, it would be an infection by your definition.

    Even though the molecule is identical and it will induce an identical response.

  23. #23 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    Prometheus,

    So, the immune reaction to E. coli K12 LPS, which will be indistinguishable from the reaction to LPS from E. coli O157:H7, is somehow qualitatively or quantitatively different because E. coli K12 isn’t a “pathogen”? What nonsense!

    K12 is NOT EHEC. Big difference.

    Either E. coli K12 or E. coli O157:H7 injected into the body would be pathogens. Even the “normal flora” E. coli are “pathogens” if they are in the tissues or bloodstream.

    There are pathogenic as well as nonpathogenic microorganisms that can be introduced into the bloodstream or tissues. Don’t bark up the wrong tree. So which “squirrel” did you see?

  24. #24 augustine
    May 27, 2011

    @Larry,

    3-4 million measles cases per year in the U.S. pre vaccine 450 deaths per year. ~150 million census.

    99.99% case survival
    99.9997% population survival

    Woe is me. Dem measles is a comin’

    Also take into account that nutrition plays a major factor in measles survival and you’ll see that risk is not homogenous like science based cultist would lead to believe.

    I never understood that term Science “Based” Medicine, anyway. Either it’s science or it’s not. Medicine is NOT science. No amount of word play will make it so.

  25. #25 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    You’re avoiding the question.

    No I’m not. I’m trying to show you where the “squirrel” is so you can stop barking up the wrong tree.

    However, O157:H7 LPS is identical, yet if he did the same thing with LPS derived from this strain instead, it would be an infection by your definition.

    They are not the same. They are distinguished from one another. The K12 LPS is not diarrheagenic unlike the pathogenic O157:H7 LPS.

    Even though the molecule is identical and it will induce an identical response.

    False. Remember PAMPs. Unlike you, they don’t bark up the wrong tree. “It’s the squirrel!!!”

  26. #26 CG
    May 27, 2011

    K12 is NOT EHEC. Big difference.

    Thingy says some that is technically correct for once! About a quarter of their genomes are different.

    Their core genes are practically identical though, and their lipid A is 100% identical. E. colis pretty much have the basic lipid A, no fancy modifications. That means theirs is actually the most immunogenic variant there is.

    That also means all E. coli LPS activates the immune system in an identical manner. Pathogen or not, the molecule is the same.

  27. #27 CG
    May 27, 2011

    They are not the same. They are distinguished from one another. The K12 LPS is not diarrheagenic unlike the pathogenic O157:H7 LPS.

    Except they are. The LPS does not contribute to the diarrhea, the type 3 secretion system which damages epithelial cells does that. During the course of infection, your immune cells should never even see its LPS. EHEC does not invade, which is probably why it never bothered to modify it. There’s no reason to.

  28. #28 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 27, 2011

    3-4 million measles cases per year in the U.S. pre vaccine 450 deaths per year. ~150 million census.

    So 450 preventable deaths of children a year—or ~1000 today with the population increase—would be perfectly fine to maintain the purity of your Precious Bodily Fluids? Die in a fire, augustine.

  29. #29 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    EHEC does not invade, which is probably why it never bothered to modify it. There’s no reason to.

    So what’s causing the kidneys to fail (HUS), meningitis, colitis and diarrhea? Can the molecules of nonpathogenic K12 capable of doing that?

    Except they are. The LPS does not contribute to the diarrhea, the type 3 secretion system which damages epithelial cells does that. During the course of infection, your immune cells should never even see its LPS.

    Yeah right.

    Diarrhea caused by Escherichia coli is one of the important causes of infant morbidity and mortality in developing countries. We investigated the effects of bovine lactoferrin (BLf) on lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-induced diarrheogenic activity, gastrointestinal transit (GIT), and intestinal fluid content in mice. LPS accumulated abundant fluid in the small intestine in a dose-dependent manner, induced diarrhea, but decreased the GIT.

  30. #30 Sauceress
    May 27, 2011

    @224 TH1Th2

    Remember PAMPs. Unlike you, they don’t bark up the wrong tree. “It’s the squirrel!!!”

    TH1TH2 throws around,and professes an understanding of, the term PAMP in an ignorant effort to push its unique concept of the term infection. As usual, it hasn’t bothered to read and learn the basic characteristics of PAMP

    Referencing wiki here as TH1Th2 hasn’t been doing so well reading, or rather not reading, the Immunobiology text with which it professes familiarity.

    This information from wiki on PAMP is supported by the literature.

    Pathogen-associated molecular patterns, or PAMPs, are molecules associated with groups of pathogens, that are recognized by cells of the innate immune system. These molecules can be referred to as small molecular motifs conserved within a class of microbes. They are recognized by Toll-like receptors (TLRs) and other pattern recognition receptors (PRRs) in both plants and animals.

    They activate innate immune responses, protecting the host from infection, by identifying some conserved non-self molecules. Bacterial Lipopolysaccharide (LPS), an endotoxin found on the bacterial cell membrane of a bacterium, is considered to be the prototypical PAMP.

    Now pay special attention TH1Th2..

    The term “PAMP” has been criticized on the grounds that most microbes, not only pathogens, express the molecules detected; the term microbe-associated molecular pattern[1], or MAMP[2], has therefore been proposed.

    My bold.

  31. #31 Stu
    May 27, 2011

    CG, are you seriously debating this psychopathic clownshoe?

    For fuck’s sake, this is the one that has a definition of intravenous that includes the smoke from the cigarette I now have to smoke to calm down after reading this raging personality disorder on wheels ruin yet another thread.

  32. #32 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    Sauceress,

    Why put this in your ignore list?

    A virulence signal capable of binding to a pathogen receptor, in combination with a MAMP, has been proposed as one way to constitute a (pathogen-specific) PAMP.

  33. #33 augustine
    May 27, 2011

    So 450 preventable deaths of children a year—or ~1000 today with the population increase…Die in a fire, augustine.

    You don’t know how many would die today, Firebreather. In the name of fear you certainly can project, though.

    How many die from medicine every single year Mr. Dragon?

  34. #34 Krebiozen
    May 27, 2011

    @Sid Offitt

    Yes, Kerbiozen, I agree, ear infections are deadly…..if you live in a house covered in feces, garbage. In the real would not so much.

    Do you have a citation for increased mortality of ear infections in people who live in “a house covered in feces, garbage”? Incidence of otitis media causing meningitis in the UK is 0.42 per 100,000. It is rare but sometimes ear infections have serious complications that require hospitalization in real people, in the real world.

    “More serious illnesses were treated at home a few decades ago, so it is not possible to meaningfully compare hospitalization rates pre and post vaccination as a means to assess the seriousness of measles.”
    …is based on exactly what, now?

    Are you really suggesting that before 1963 people with relatively serious illnesses that would now be hospitalized were not routinely nursed at home? I thought that was fairly obvious, but take a look at on the drop in the proportion of people who die at home as opposed to dying in hospital (in the UK it has halved in 30 years). Dying is a fairly serious illness for which hospitalization has doubled. Earlier you seemed to be arguing the exact opposite. You wrote:

    Do you really think in the pre-vaccine era 40% of the three to four million children who contracted the measles were hospitalized. And now they’re hospitalizing children for ear infections so I would take those numbers with a grain of salt.

    My point exactly. Back in the good old days what we now consider to be serious illnesses were treated more casually. That’s why I omitted hospitalization from the list of incidence of serious measles complications. Unless you are suggesting the CDC figures are bogus, in which case there’s no point continuing the discussion.

    And no it’s not possible that cases are underreported, it’s a scientifically supported fact that they are – and that more severe cases are more likely to be captured.

    I think you are nit-picking here. Those absolute numbers of people who died, got encephalitis or pneumonia are still correct, right? Those 177 people are still dead from what you call a mild illness. Is it really that important that there may be some hidden cases of measles that are mild and don’t get reported? Halve the incidence of serious complications if you think that half the cases were not reported, quarter it if you insist, but that still leaves a lot of people dead or very sick from a vaccine preventable disease.

  35. #35 CG
    May 27, 2011

    So what’s causing the kidneys to fail (HUS), meningitis, colitis and diarrhea? Can the molecules of nonpathogenic K12 capable of doing that?

    HUS? Shiga toxin, encoded in a lysogenic phage.
    Meningitis? That’s E. coli K1, not EHEC.
    Colitis and diarrhea? AE lesions mediated by T3SS, which is encoded on a pathogenicity island.

    As for the LPS, the same can be done with K12 LPS. LPS is endotoxin. Dumping large amounts of it in any animal will cause issues.

    The part of LPS detected by TLR4 is Lipid A. Some organisms modify their lipid A in order to not trigger the immune system. K12 and O157:H7 do not do this.

    You clearly have no clue how this organism works and are just googling and throwing links out.

  36. #36 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    You’re avoiding the question.

    No I’m not. I’m trying to show you where the “squirrel” is so you can stop barking up the wrong tree.

    However, O157:H7 LPS is identical, yet if he did the same thing with LPS derived from this strain instead, it would be an infection by your definition.

    They are not the same. They are distinguished from one another. The K12 LPS is not diarrheagenic unlike the pathogenic O157:H7 LPS.

    Even though the molecule is identical and it will induce an identical response.

    False. Remember PAMPs. Unlike you, they don’t bark up the wrong tree. “It’s the squirrel!!!”

  37. #37 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    You’re avoiding the question.

    No I’m not. I’m trying to show you where the “squirrel” is so you can stop barking up the wrong tree.

    However, O157:H7 LPS is identical, yet if he did the same thing with LPS derived from this strain instead, it would be an infection by your definition.

    They are not the same. They are distinguished from one another. The K12 LPS is not diarrheagenic unlike the pathogenic O157:H7 LPS.

    Even though the molecule is identical and it will induce an identical response.

    False. Remember PAMPs. Unlike you, they don’t bark up the wrong tree. “It’s the squirrel!!!”

  38. #38 CG
    May 27, 2011

    False. Remember PAMPs. Unlike you, they don’t bark up the wrong tree. “It’s the squirrel!!!”

    Time for a basic microbiology lesson. Gather round kids!

    LPS is found in the outer leaflet of all Gram negative bacteria. It has three parts.
    The outer most part is the somatic or O antigen. This part does vary, it’s where the O in O157 comes from. It is not immunogenic and plays no role in PAMP recognition.
    Next up is the core polysaccharide. It doesn’t vary within a species.
    At the base is lipid A. This is the part that anchors into the membrane. It’s also the part recognized by TLR4. Some species modify this part so TL4 can’t see it as well. Most strains of E. coli, including K12 and O157:H7 do not.

    This means it doesn’t matter which strain LPS is from, TLR4 will recognize it. If I injected K12 LPS into you, you would die still of septic shock.

  39. #39 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    May 27, 2011

    3-4 million measles cases per year in the U.S. pre vaccine 450 deaths per year. ~150 million census.

    99.99% case survival

    99.9997% population survival

    Woe is me. Dem measles is a comin’

    Also take into account that nutrition plays a major factor in measles survival and you’ll see that risk is not homogenous like science based cultist would lead to believe.

    While I disagree with some of Augustine’s conclusions, I think he raises a useful point.
    Based on CDC data, between 1 and 2 children who are sick with measles die, a number of others have various complications which can include seizures, permanent deafness, pneumonia, and so on. Presumably no one disagrees with this.
    The vaccine clearly significantly reduces the risk of catching the disease. While it introduces some known risks, those are demonstrably less than those of catching the actual disease.
    These are reasonable matters of science.
    However, the decision of whether to encourage immunization is not strictly one of science. It really comes down to societal values. Is it worthwhile to society to save, say, the 1-2 children out of a thousand that might have died? Or should the threshold be higher – should we reserve this sort of thing for something that kills, say, 1 child out of 100? Or one out of 10?

  40. #40 Sid Offit
    May 27, 2011

    @Krebiozen

    I’m getting caught in the spam filter anytime I try to use a link so just google

    a house covered in feces, garbage fox ear infection death

    if you’re interested

    Yes, sometimes illnesses cause death; that’s why they’re called illnesses. And since the measles doesn’t even cause death on it’s own, rarely causes death and hardly ever causes death in the previously healthy, I feel I’m on firm ground classifying the measles as a mild illness.

  41. #41 Sid Offit
    May 27, 2011

    @Mephistopheles O’Brien

    How do you get 1 or 2 deaths per thousand from these numbers:

    3-4 million measles cases per year in the U.S. pre vaccine 450 deaths per year

  42. #42 Sauceress
    May 27, 2011

    Oh dear CG!
    It looks like you’ve caused the troll bot to blow a spam cork.

  43. #43 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    If I injected K12 LPS into you, you would die still of septic shock.

    Did your friend die? Are you sure it’s septic shock not medical murder?

  44. #44 CG
    May 27, 2011

    Did your friend die?

    No, he stabbed himself with the needle. If he actually pushed down the plunger and injected himself he would probably have died. Just the small amount that diffused out the needle was enough to cause severe local inflammation.

    LPS strongly activates the innate immune system. Harmless commensal or pathogen it really doesn’t matter, both will activate TLR4.

  45. #45 Krebiozen
    May 27, 2011

    @Sid Offitt
    So one child who died of an ear infection was neglected and lived in squalor. This proves what exactly?

    I happen to think that reducing suffering and death is a good thing. You apparently either don’t, or think that “only” a few hundred people a year dying or being permanently disabled, by a vaccine-preventable disease would be acceptable in the USA in the 21st century. That is where things are heading, judging by trends in Europe. That disgusts me.

    By the way, you wrote, “measles doesn’t even cause death on it’s own, rarely causes death and hardly ever causes death in the previously healthy”. That’s not true. The measles virus directly causes pneumonia, encephalitis and death. A study of measles deaths between 1964 and 1971 found that “nearly 17% of the persons who died had some underlying disease at the time of death”. That means that more than 80% of those who died of measles did not have an underlying disease.

  46. #46 Todd W.
    May 27, 2011

    @Kreboizen

    Also, measles is, as far as I could find, the only cause of SSPE, which almost always causes…wait for it…death.

  47. #47 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    No, he stabbed himself with the needle. If he actually pushed down the plunger and injected himself he would probably have died. Just the small amount that diffused out the needle was enough to cause severe local inflammation.
    LPS strongly activates the innate immune system. Harmless commensal or pathogen it really doesn’t matter, both will activate TLR4.

    But you’re not concerned of the so many naive children receiving LPS-containing vaccines?

  48. #48 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    HUS? Shiga toxin, encoded in a lysogenic phage.
    Meningitis? That’s E. coli K1, not EHEC.
    Colitis and diarrhea? AE lesions mediated by T3SS, which is encoded on a pathogenicity island.

    I thought my question was clear. Again, can the nonpathogenic K12 able to cause the above conditions?

  49. #49 Sid Offit
    May 27, 2011

    @Kerboizen

    http://www.immunize.org/reports/report085.pdf

    Measles, itself, does not kill children. Instead, complications from measles attack the childís already weak immune system.

    =============================================

    You apparently either don’t, or think that “only” a few hundred people a year dying or being permanently disabled, by a vaccine-preventable disease would be acceptable in the USA in the 21st century.

    It’s not for me to decide what’s acceptable for the entire country. I’m responsible to decide whether the risk of a certain illness warrants the vaccination of my child.

  50. #50 Matthew Cline
    May 27, 2011

    (I know I shouldn’t feed the troll, but…)

    @Th1Th2:

    In your opinion, what percentage of smallpox deaths were iatrogenic?

    When the Black Plague killed off 1/4 of Europe, what percentage of the deaths were iatrogenic?

  51. #51 herr doktor bimler
    May 27, 2011

    Measles, itself, does not kill children. Instead, complications from measles attack the child’s already weak immune system.

    The same reasoning reassures us that HIV is no cause for concern.

  52. #52 lilady
    May 28, 2011

    Sid Offal has provided a link to a four year old article at Immunize.org which details the Measles Initiative work being done in third world developing countries. The subject here is the major outbreaks in the United States and Europe as a result of scare tactics generated by the anti-vax cranks.

    The four year old articles details the morbidity and mortality rate for children in these third world countries. Yes Offal, kids do die of measles complications in Africa and Asia. That’s what happens we they are living in cramped housing, they aren’t properly nourished and they acquire the disease as infants when there immune system is immature. They don’t have access to good medical care or hospitals and they haven’t been immunized against measles.

    So, tell us Sid, where did you get your medical degree and where do you practice medicine because you have unequivocally stated “I feel I’m on firm ground classify the measles as a mild illness”.

    Sid, in your “professional” opinion were the 60 % (14/23 cases of measles) in Minneapolis whose physicians hospitalized them for treatment, unnecessary hospitalizations? Were the 40 % (47/118 measles cases) reported YTD in the United States who required hospitalization, also unnecessary hospitalizations?

    Offal, I saw the Comment you posted under the picture of the little girl infected with smallpox on “SBM-Smallpox and pseudomedicine”, “Wow she’s pretty”. You really are the nastiest of trolls.

  53. #53 Matthew Cline
    May 28, 2011

    @herr doktor bimler:

    The same reasoning reassures us that HIV is no cause for concern.

    Well, according to Th1Th2, avoiding infection is almost effortless, so I guess all those people who’ve died from AIDS were just to stupid to realize that they should have walked on the nice clean concrete sidewalks.

  54. #54 Chris
    May 28, 2011

    lilady:

    So, tell us Sid, where did you get your medical degree and where do you practice medicine because you have unequivocally stated “I feel I’m on firm ground classify the measles as a mild illness”.

    He is a real estate investor who thinks he is smarter than those who have science and/or medical degrees. He also seems to enjoy pretending to be a respected author, which he is not. I now know he does have a child, one that he probably had very little part in taking care of when she was small (why he does not understand why saying there was no food on his kitchen floor was silly for a parent of small children). Personally I would not trust him on any medical or family matter. It is better to just ignore him.

  55. #55 CG
    May 28, 2011

    I thought my question was clear. Again, can the nonpathogenic K12 able to cause the above conditions?

    You are deliberately not clear. K12 cannot do those things due to it lacking the genes I mentioned. It’s LPS has nothing to do with it. Once again you are changing the subject.

    But you’re not concerned of the so many naive children receiving LPS-containing vaccines?

    Because they aren’t. There is no LPS containing vaccine. The only whole cell vaccines or live bacteria vaccines are Gram positive.

    However, the use of LPS-like molecules as an adjuvant are being investigated.

  56. #56 lilady
    May 28, 2011

    @ Chris: And, I wouldn’t trust him on a business investment matter either. That explains why he has so much free time to post here…in between phone calls for extending his credit line.

  57. #57 Doc Rocketscience
    May 28, 2011

    Offal, I saw the Comment you posted under the picture of the little girl infected with smallpox on “SBM-Smallpox and pseudomedicine”, “Wow she’s pretty”. You really are the nastiest of trolls.

    I could hardly believe this was right, but sure enough, there it was.
    Wow, Robert, you really are a useless piece of shit, aren’t you?
    It should be noted that the SBM commenters simply ignored him. We should all emulate their restraint.

  58. #58 Th1Th2
    May 28, 2011

    Matthew Cline,

    Well, according to Th1Th2, avoiding infection is almost effortless, so I guess all those people who’ve died from AIDS were just to stupid to realize that they should have walked on the nice clean concrete sidewalks.

    You mean they are not smart. Like vaccine fanatics who plan their visit to the doctor just to get infected. No wonder they could not find the sidewalk because they chose to remain in dirt.

  59. #59 Th1Th2
    May 28, 2011

    CG,

    You are deliberately not clear. K12 cannot do those things due to it lacking the genes I mentioned. It’s LPS has nothing to do with it. Once again you are changing the subject.

    Well, you’re the one who came up with the K12 case scenario. If I had not asked you about the “squirrel”, you could still be barking up the wrong tree.

    Because they aren’t. There is no LPS containing vaccine. The only whole cell vaccines or live bacteria vaccines are Gram positive.

    That is certainly not true particularly for the infamous acellular Pertussis vaccine.

    Pertussis Vaccination: Use of Acellular Pertussis Vaccines Among Infants and Young Children Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)

    Acellular pertussis vaccines contain inactivated pertussis toxin (PT) and may contain one or more other bacterial components (e.g., filamentous hemagglutinin {FHA}, a 69-kilodalton outer-membrane protein — pertactin {Pn}, and fimbriae {Fim} types 2 and 3). PT is detoxified either by treatment with a chemical (e.g., hydrogen peroxide, formalin and/or glutaraldehyde) or by using molecular genetic techniques. Acellular pertussis vaccines contain substantially less endotoxin than whole-cell pertussis vaccines.

    An overview of the status of acellular pertussis vaccines in practice.

    Acellular pertussis vaccines have decreased endotoxin content and are less reactogenic than whole cell vaccines.

    Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed
    Tripedia

    The inactivated acellular pertussis component
    contributes not more than 50 endotoxin units to the endotoxin content of 1 mL of DTaP.

  60. #60 lilady
    May 28, 2011

    @ Doc Rocketscience: Yes it is true and unfortunately only one of Offal’s manifestions of his sick mind. He derives pleasure from posting here (works out his demons), is totally clueless about immunology and totally devoid of any human decency.

    He talks about infants and children in third world countries who live lives of deprivation and disease as is they are sub-human. Minority and immigrant groups within this country are scorned by him… not worthy of our care and concern because they are not part of his privileged lily white world. In his sick perverted mind innocent babies and children who are not part of his narrow “group” should die to rid society of needy people.

    Truly an odious uneducated troll totally bereft of decency and without a shred of humanity.

  61. #61 TBruce
    May 28, 2011

    Interesting how the true character of these antivax trolls gets revealed as they comment. John Lennon had something to say about this.

  62. #62 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    May 28, 2011

    @sid,
    Per http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/overview.html

    About one out of 10 children with measles also gets an ear infection, and up to one out of 20 gets pneumonia. About one out of 1,000 gets encephalitis, and one or two out of 1,000 die.

  63. #63 Denice Walter
    May 28, 2011

    @ lilady: Here’s my take on RS- my research informs me that real estate has not been doing exceedingly well these days ( new understatement of the week) so the poor fellow has to figure out *something* to do with his time and needs to lash out at *somebody*: why not us? We make ourselves clear and represent a thought-out, reality-based opinion- I’m sure that makes us worthy of both scorn and contempt! We’re in good company!

    Dunning and Kruger use the label “inexpert and unaware of it” for some folks: we should remember that one of the higher level abilities that develop around the time of adolescence ( a/k/a executive fxs, formal operational thought, etc.), along with sarcasm, is the ability to self-evaluate your own capacities and skills. Many people never fully get there. Our woo-meisters often present themselves as “experts” ( altho’ much of this is for PR) and challenge more educated “elitists” way above their own level -heh heh heh-( I guess that this can “rub off” on their followers): it resembles a phenomenon often seen on tennis courts, players self-rate themselves *way* above their own real capabilities and then get absolutely *slaughtered* by a person who really *is* the level they call themselves.

    However, RS does present us with a mighty “blast from the past” with his attitudes about race: who would have thunk it – colonialism lives on! OK , I know that these days, you don’t actually have to go through the trouble of acquiring and managing colonies, it can be done purely economically, or as RS so kindly illustrates for us, by attitude alone! (Disclaimer: though lily-white, I totally abhor this attitude- it sucks!). My work here is done.

  64. #64 LW
    May 28, 2011

    It’s one thing to be stupid or ignorant or both — but RI’s trolls are often strikingly loathsome as well. I suppose one has to be pretty loathsome to persist the way they do. Sid Offal is just one example.

  65. #65 Orac
    May 28, 2011

    Unfortunately, that’s the nature of anti-vaccine trolls. They tend to be far more nasty and loathsome than most other varieties of trolls, and as long as I write about vaccines and the anti-vaccine loons that hate them I am likely to continue to have to put up with anti-vaccine trolls.

  66. #66 LW
    May 28, 2011

    I had never encountered anti-vaxxers before reading RI, so I had no idea what they were like. I thought they were just innocent hippie types (I have some innocent hippie-type friends), and that one could have a cheerful dispute with them. Not so. I am impressed that you endure them so patiently.

  67. #67 Sid Offit
    May 28, 2011

    Denise, that’s the best one EVER. Sid Offit: Colonialist. What a great illustration of the delusional mindset necessary to believe the vaccine myths that permeate these threads.

  68. #68 Denice Walter
    May 28, 2011

    @ Sid: it’s called “hyperbole in the service of jest”

  69. #69 Sid Offit
    May 28, 2011

    Sorry, but I reject Atwood’s argumentum ad misericordiam. He was using a disturbing picture as a ham-handed attempt to distract for an argument built on falsehood.

    You appear to believe that if you can find a picture of a terrible condition others should accept it as evidence of the correctness of your argument. I don’t.

    By the time the vaccine made an impact in America, the dominant form of smallpox – variola minor – was often confused with chickenpox and had a mortality rate of ~1%, yet Atwood tells us his picture is what a case of smallpox would do to us. That’s absurd and deserves to be ridiculed.

  70. #70 Doc Rocketscience
    May 28, 2011

    Robert, if that’s the argument you want to make, you could have made that argument. But, you didn’t. Instead, you threw out a bit of bile and feces that, if taken seriously, indicates that you consider that child’s condition to be a positive outcome. You chose to present yourself as a heartless fuckwad. And here I thought you were all about the children. Seriously, Robert, you’re a useless excuse for a human being, a troll who’s sexual pleasure seems to be derived from the promotion of disease and death. Kindly DIAF.

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to test out this new killfile script.

  71. #71 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 28, 2011

    Anybody notice that according to Sid, a death rate of 1% is perfectly OK? We know that for little augie, the 1 in a thousand death rate from measles was hunky-dory, now 1 in 100 from smallpox is just fine. Do we have any other trolls who would endorse a death rate of 1 in 10 rather than have anybody’s Precious Bodily Fluids™ contaminated? Come on—step up to the plate! Show us what sort of sociopaths we’re dealing with.

  72. #72 LW
    May 28, 2011

    “the dominant form of smallpox – variola minor – was often confused with chickenpox”

    (Citation needed)

  73. #73 lilady
    May 28, 2011

    The little girl that Offal commented on, was photographed in Bangladesh in 1973; she had pustules all over her body from Smallpox infection.

    If you have ever seen smallpox case pustules or full blow chickenpox, you know the difference. I was trained in complete emergency preparedness during the WMD scare…”weaponized smallpox major”, including lab specimen preparation.. prior to being revaccinated against smallpox as a first responder. Once that vaccination “took” I vaccinated small numbers of Emergency Room personnel in every area hospital in my county.

    Information about Smallpox Major and other varieties of smallpox can be found at the CDC website “Emergency Preparedness-Smallpox.

  74. #74 Sid Offit
    May 28, 2011

    @LW

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200695/
    The ordinary-type variola as well as variola minor can be confused with chickenpox as stated above

  75. #75 Sid Offit
    May 28, 2011

    indicates that you consider that child’s condition to be a positive outcome.

    I just love visiting the dreamworld ya’ll live in

  76. #76 LW
    May 28, 2011

    Hmm. From Offal’s reference, “A disease that can still be confused with smallpox is varicella (chickenpox). ” Remarkably, this matches what Offal said. But wait, look later in that paragraph: “The clinical course and the characteristic appearance of the skin lesions aid in the ability to distinguish one from another.”  And the next paragraph: “When smallpox was endemic, the diagnosis was easily made based on the appearance and distribution of the rash.”

     In other words, doctors who saw the two diseases in actual practice could easily tell the difference. Doctors (and laymen) who hadn’t seen a case might confuse one for the other. But the mere fact that the two diseases initially looked the same doesn’t mean they were the same. Variola minor was a lot less lethal than variola major, but it was a lot more lethal than chickenpox.  The reason it was important to distinguish them was because a case of chickenpox could give rise to an outbreak of chickenpox, which was tolerable, but a case of smallpox mistaken for chickenpox might give rise to an outbreak of smallpox, which could be devastating. 

    Case in point: the 1947 outbreak in New York City. The initial patient was misdiagnosed with chickenpox and thus was not rigorously quarantined. He therefore infected two people in the hospital, who went on to infect nine more. Of the twelve people in the outbreak, three died (the original patient and Mr. and Mrs. Acosta). Note to Offal: that’s a mortality of 25%. Frantic efforts by the authorities to vaccine everyone in the City stopped the disease in its tracks. 

    Look down in the report. You will see a list of outbreaks in the United States in the 20th Century, well after the introduction of vaccination. Not one of them had a mortality less than 10%, and the mortalities ranged up to 30%. Smallpox was not a mild disease comparable to chickenpox, despite Offal’s fantasies.

    There are lots of diseases that may be mistaken for other diseases, particularly in atypical presentations. That does not mean they are the same disease or equally benign.    

  77. #77 lilady
    May 28, 2011

    You can twist all you want to mitigate the damages to your reputation. IMO you are evil personified…not for the differences we have about vaccines…but for your cold, compassionless statements and your poor taste in humor. Truly a vile human being.

  78. #78 LW
    May 28, 2011

    “You can twist all you want to mitigate the damages to your reputation.”

    Offal’s reputation is well-established here. I doubt there is anything which could damage it further, nor anything Offal would do to mitigate the damage.

  79. #79 dedicated lurker
    May 28, 2011

    Siddy, if you’re not willing to take a chance with vaccinating your kid, you must not let them ride in any cars, right? Every time you’re in a car there’s a substantial risk of crashing. Certainly more than the chances of a severe reaction to a vaccine.

  80. #80 lilady
    May 28, 2011

    This old broad was vaccinated for the first time in 1947 during the smallpox outbreak in NYC. I grew up in Brooklyn and hadn’t entered kindergarten yet (two older siblings were vaccinated prior to school entry). New York City was the epicenter of the smallpox outbreak and I was vaccinated along with a slew of my playmates at the local firehouse.

    In 1971 prior to traveling to Europe I was re-vaccinated at the Manhattan Health Department for entry into Germany and re-entry into the U.S. Later that same year my 1 year old daughter received her vaccine; in 1972 smallpox vaccine was discontinued from the list of Recommended Childhood Vaccines. Then there was my third smallpox vaccine as I was a designated first responder. I was “vaccine-injured” due to small losses of pigmentation over my left deltoid muscle….but never filled out a VAERS Report.

  81. #81 Sid Offit
    May 28, 2011

    LW, you’re only focusing on outbreaks of “virulent” smallpox. That version of the disease was rare in relation to v. minor. And v. minor had a 1% fatality rate. That rate would have likely declined as living conditions continued to improve. After all measles deaths went from 7,000 in the 20s to 400 in the 60s. And all your research on the confusion between smallpox and chickenpox doesn’t change the fact that what I said was quite true: smallpox and chickenpox were often confused

  82. #82 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 28, 2011

    I was “vaccine-injured” due to small losses of pigmentation over my left deltoid muscle….but never filled out a VAERS Report.

    Gee, by the 50s, when I got my smallpox vaccination, they were giving it to the boys on the outside of the arm, so we could look like Manly Men™ and giving to the girls on the inside of the arm, where it wouldn’t show. You should have sued them for making it visible the first time.

  83. #83 Julian Frost
    May 28, 2011

    Sid Troll:

    v. minor had a 1% fatality rate

    So out of a population of 1 million, you could expect 10 000 deaths. I’d say getting rid of it was still worthwhile.

  84. #84 Sid Offit
    May 28, 2011

    @lilady
    Oh no. We’re both from Brooklyn. I’m from Bensonhurst.

    @D-Lurker
    Risk -reward. Vaccines = risk and little reward. Cars = risk but lots of reward

  85. #85 Sid Offit
    May 28, 2011

    I’d say giving people a choice to protect themselves with a vaccine is worthwhile; forcing that choice upon them isn’t.

  86. #86 dedicated lurker
    May 28, 2011

    What’s the reward of cars? Pollution? And how much risk is worth how much reward?

  87. #87 Th1Th2
    May 28, 2011

    Vaccines vs Car? That’s a classic Gray-style analogy.

    Easily debunked.

    Passenger cars are designed to transport people safely. End of the story.

    Vaccines are created to infect. It is inherent, deliberate and expected.

  88. #88 Lawrence
    May 28, 2011

    How about a one week moratorium on responding to idiot trolls? Since we already know exactly what they are going to say (broken record doesn’t even begin to describe it) – why bother to spend any time responding to their moronic misunderstanding of basic realities?

    Seriously – they can argue semantics or unreality all they want, won’t change the actual facts.

  89. #89 LW
    May 28, 2011

    The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge, maybe the vaccine was administered differently in different places? Everybody in my family, boy or girl, got vaccinated on the outside of the arm.

  90. #90 lilady
    May 29, 2011

    All my family members received their vaccines high up on the deltoid muscle, except my 15 month older sister, who for some reason received hers in the upper thigh. I recall that my parents and older relatives who also had the vaccines in early childhood…many years ago, had rather large (2-3 cm.) shallow craters on the arms. I suspect that the potency of the vaccine variolation was stronger, than that of Dryvax vaccine that was used during the 1947 NYC outbreak, and the only vaccine being used in the United States until mid 2008.

  91. #91 LW
    May 29, 2011

    All right, Lawrence, just for you….

    But the history of smallpox in the United States is quite interesting, and I quite enjoyed investigating Offal’s falsehoods.

  92. #92 DrDuran
    May 29, 2011

    lilady @280

    I’ve heard and read that smallpox vax was stopped in 1972 many times, I was born in 1973 and have a mark on my arm from the vax. It look just the same as the one my older sister has. Just seems weird to me.

  93. #93 Denice Walter
    May 29, 2011

    AoA is trumpetting two events at *Autism One* that I believe may exemplify the state of the movement presently:

    1. The Canary Party(see website): Led by a Reiki Master, a group of concerned citizens, alarmed by the startling rise of “neurological and autoimmune illnesses” in both children and adults, believe that many have been “harmed and killed by the medical industry”. Intent on flexxing their political muscle, it seems as though they’ve taken a page from the NaturalNews/ Gary Null playbook. It should be interesting when several of these advocacy groups converge on legislators simultaneously. And bring lawyers.

    2. Keynoter Jenny McCarthy premiers her new line of “affordable, non-toxic baby products”.

    Both efforts “spread” beyond the narrow confines of A-V. This leads me to believe that the “times, they are a-changing” in a fashion that can be best expressed metaphorically by a little scene I dreamt up:

    A blonde woman is spraying a home scent product around her apartment- a really expensive one, either by Jo Malone or Ralph Lauren- she keeps sniffing, and unsatisfied, sprays even more. There is however, a dead body in the next room: it’s been there for a while and guests are due to arrive in an hour. Oh, well.

  94. #94 Chris
    May 29, 2011

    Dr. Duran:

    I’ve heard and read that smallpox vax was stopped in 1972 many times,

    Only in the USA. I got my last smallpox vaccine in 1974 at an Army medical clinic in what was then the Panama Canal Zone. You may have had some very diligent parents.

  95. #95 Johnny
    May 29, 2011

    I’ve heard and read that smallpox vax was stopped in 1972 many times…

    Only in the USA. I got my last smallpox vaccine in 1974 at an Army medical clinic in what was then the Panama Canal Zone.

    Not for the military (and families) who were overseas. I Joined the AF in 76, and was revaccinated as part of normal in-processing (nine shots in six weeks).

  96. #96 LW
    May 29, 2011

    Even after routine vaccination stopped in the U.S., they still vaccinated people who travelled outside the country. I was vaccinated for that reason. Maybe DrDuran was taken outside the U.S. when very small. Also, they stopped routine vaccination but that doesn’t mean the vaccine was not available, and some diligent parents might have gotten their children vaccinated anyway, as Chris suggested. I know my grandmother never believed that smallpox was eradicated, and she expected another outbreak because people had stopped vaccinating.

  97. #97 lilady
    May 29, 2011

    @ DrDuran: The 1972 cutoff date for smallpox vaccine being given in the United States, is for “Routine Vaccination” (school entry included). As other posters have stated above, travel outside of the USA, required smallpox vaccine for a few years after the “routine” smallpox vaccination was discontinued in 1972. Others have stated that they received the vaccine when they served in the armed forces and Chris received it while residing in the Panama Canal Zone.

    A few days ago on one of the Science Based Medicine blogs, a mother posted that she adopted an infant from a foreign country about 8-10 years ago. She sees a telltale small mark on the child’s upper arm that appears to indicate that the child received smallpox vaccine sometime after 2000.

    One absolutely brilliant poster recalls working in foreign countries and seeing those same telltale marks…from receiving the BCG vaccine. Countries where tuberculosis is very prevalent still give BCG vaccine in early infancy and it leaves the same/similar mark on the arm as smallpox vaccine does. Could this be the case with you?

    Usually I would refer you to the CDC Pink Book-Smallpox, but I have trouble loading the chapter…probably because the book is in revision, right now. These are the times when I miss my job in public health, where I had hard copies of the Pink Book and the AAP Red Book on my desk for ready reference.

    I have located the last VIS (Vaccine Information Sheet) for Smallpox vaccine published 11-15-03. Just type in:

    VIS-Smallpox

    Removal of the vaccine requirement for “Routine” immunizations is contained in section #1 “What is Smallpox”

  98. #98 DrDuran
    May 30, 2011

    Well, I never even left California before I was a teenager, so out of US travel wouldn’t be the reason, my mom doesn’t remember me getting that vax particularly, and I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t be asking for non-routine vax’s, so I still don’t know why I got it…LoL

  99. #99 LW
    May 30, 2011

    Possibly your pediatrician was still recommending the smallpox vaccination a couple of years after it was judged no longer routinely required?  If pediatricians can fiercely argue against recommended vaccines (Dr. Gordon), perhaps they can also recommend an extra vaccine. Though the smallpox vaccine was nasty enough that I would have thought doctors would stop giving it the moment they heard it was safe to do so, still that’s the only explanation I can come up with. 

  100. #100 Chris
    May 30, 2011

    Dr. Duran, how do you know you received it? Perhaps you were living a bit closer to a military base than you realized.

    Though I suspect that it was so close to its removal from the routine schedule that some pediatricians were still giving them. I don’t think the updating information was as readily available as it is now.

  101. #101 Yojimbo
    May 31, 2011

    Not that anyone need care about the intent of lurkers such as myself, but I intend from now on to boycott threads in which the Three Muskatrolls are fed. There is no viable conversation to be had with them, no possibility of finding common ground, and the battlefield has been tramped over so many times it looks like a parking lot. There doesn’t even seem to be anything left of value to the casual passerby. All you’re doing is making them fat.

    You must do as you please, but I find having to don hip waders to get through the BS has gotten old. You have worn out this set of trolls – it is time to cultivate new ones.

  102. #102 Lawrence
    May 31, 2011

    Agreed – moratorium re-instated.

  103. #103 Griffo
    June 6, 2011

    People just have to realize that parents are desperate for answers. If someone offers them hope, they’ll believe almost anything that gives them that hope to protect their kids, regardless of the evidence for or against.

  104. #104 Micheat
    June 8, 2011

    Griffo, palliative treatment for autism: An answer is Cannabinoids and Yoga.
    We are waiting for results of studies to come out re: Cannabinoids. + ASD.
    As for the synergy between Yoga and Cannabis, you’ll have to take our word for it, for now. What harm can yoga do?
    Herbs & woo-based exercise appeal to those who don’t like the look of the date on narcoleptics and TD etc 😉

  105. #105 Kenneth
    July 1, 2011

    Hi there. I don’t suppose you saw our exhibit at the recent Autism One conference did you? We have a one of a kind all natural therapy, based on real science, by a real scientist. Perhaps you could share your thought on our approach?

    http://www.n-met.com for more information. and please do share your thoughts.

  106. #106 Militant Agnostic
    July 1, 2011

    @305

    Perhaps you could share your thought on our approach?

    Let’s see –

    Testimonials – Check

    No studies with an n > 1 – Check

    Some vague comments about metabolism – Check

    Impressive sciency scientist with lots of credentials who apparently can’t be bothered to run a proper placebo controlled double blind test before marketing his stuff – Check

    Had a booth at Autism One Quack Fest – Check

    Quack Miranda Warning – Check

    My “Shopping Cart” will remain empty, but I believe I have Quack Bingo.

    You picked the wrong blog to spam.

  107. #107 a-non
    July 2, 2011

    @306:

    All you had to do was say “Had a booth at Autism One”, and that would’ve said it all.

  108. #108 Militant Agnostic
    July 2, 2011

    @307 – I thought I would allow them the unlikely excuse of naivete on that one.

  109. #109 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    July 2, 2011

    “304

    Griffo, palliative treatment for autism: An answer is Cannabinoids and Yoga.
    We are waiting for results of studies to come out re: Cannabinoids. + ASD.
    As for the synergy between Yoga and Cannabis, you’ll have to take our word for it, for now. What harm can yoga do?
    Herbs & woo-based exercise appeal to those who don’t like the look of the date on narcoleptics and TD etc 😉

    Posted by: Micheat | June 8, 2011 5:22 AM”

    QFT.

    This is probably that ‘bis-addled fuckpig. Wanna get rid?

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