Respectful Insolence

It’s that time of year again!

No, I’m not referring to the unofficial start of summer here in the U.S., namely the Memorial Day holiday, although that is fast approaching. In fact, it’s only five days away. No, I’m referring to something that, beginning today, will blight my favorite metro area (Chicago) for the next few days. I’m referring to the anti-vaccine quackfest that starts this morning in Lombard, IL and is known as Autism One. As long as I can remember blogging (OK, maybe for the last four or five years), as Memorial Day rolls around, I can’t help but get that sinking feeling as the vaccine rejectionists, conspiracy mongers, and believers in the scientifically discredited notion that vaccines cause autism springs into action, to be topped off (usually) with a keynote address by Jenny McCarthy herself.

Given the ubiquity of its quackery, every year I’m usually mildly curious enough to see what the quackery de l’année is each year. So, in honor of Autism One, let’s peruse the Autism One speaker list and see what we find.

First off, I wondered whether, after Mark Geier’s medical license had been suspended in Maryland and David Geier kicked off the Maryland Commission on Autism, Mark and David Geier would still be featured speakers at this yearly quackfest. I needn’t have worried. They’re still there, both Mark and David, and they’re even talking about what they believe to be the role of elevated testosterone in autism. Of course, it is their use and abuse of testosterone that led them to propose chemical castration as a treatment for autism in the first place. It also lead to 2011 being a truly awful year for them thus far – and deservedly so, even though in reality all of this should have happened no later than 2006. In fact, it would appear that Autism One has doubled down on the quackery, even posting a fawning interview with the father-son duo of pseudoscientists.

So how can Autism One top chemical castration as a topic? Easy, try The One Quackery To Rule Them All, courtesy of Julianne Adams:

Even if you are familiar with homeopathy, be prepared to learn something new. As an unlayering process that is a quantum leap beyond the more common forms of homeopathy, the HHM is totally unique application. Based upon the vaccine-injury/biomedical/gut-brain model of autism, HHM offers a comprehensive approach to healing focused on each child’s unique history, challenges and needs. Presented are homeopathy basics, details regarding the HHM, and case studies demonstrating healing and recovery.

You know, when I read the term “quantum leap,” I was worried that Adams was going to go all “quantum” on us, as if homeopathy isn’t woo enough. It certainly is, if this handout is to be believed. it contains exactly what you would expect: Sympathetic magic, the principle of “like cures like,” the idea that diluting a remedy makes it stronger, even references to the “vital force.” She even uses a term that I hate, a term that is as good an indicator that you’re dealing with a woo-meister as any I can think of, “dis-ease.” I love how she describes the process of succussion, which is the shaking to which homeopaths subject their remedies between each dilution:

Succussion: vigorous shaking with impact between each dilution, brings out the healing action of the substance while eliminating any toxic effects of the original substance

And:

How Homeopathic Remedies Work

  • Dilution/succussion process allows for a transfer of energy and information from the crude substance into the remedy solution
  • Water is able to “copy” and transfer information

She even quotes William Tiller:

Tiller has explained that homeopathic preparations form two main energetic layers that become permanently imprinted into water media; one more superficial, primarily electric and another deeper and more subtle, mainly magnetic layer.

That’s not all the homeopathy there. There’s also Pierre Fontaine speaking about Reversing Autism with Classical Homeopathy: A Real Possibility.

Let’s see. What else can we come up with as far as pseudoscience goes. There’s Amber Brooks speaking on CranioSacral Therapy: Its Role in Autism Recovery & Childhood Development claiming that “CST has been shown to help the individual with autistic features gain a calmer and more relaxed state of being by decreasing structural stress and strain.” Add to that a chiropractor named Charles Chapple speaking on Affecting Sensory Processing, Primitive Reflexes with Chiropractic and Cranial Sacral Therapy.

We also have legal propaganda from Louis Conte, who gets not just one, but three presentations:

  1. Criminal Law, Law Enforcement and Autism
  2. The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program Justice Project
  3. UNANSWERED QUESTIONS FROM THE VACCINE INJURY COMPENSATION PROGRAM: A Review of Compensated Cases of Vaccine-Induced Brain Injury

Of course, this last presentation is about the execrable “study” for which he was a co-author and about which he, like Sergeant Schultz apparently “knows nuttink” about the need for IRB approval for human subjects research. Not surprisingly, the study’s lead author, Mary Holland, will be there too.

I’d go on, but I’m only to “C” in the alphabetical list of authors, and I’m getting tired of the pseudoscience. Mixed in with woo-friendly doctors are a horde of homeopaths, naturopaths, chiropractors, and all manner of “alternative” practitioners. And, of course, Andrew Wakefield is there, no doubt to experience the adulation of the ravening hordes. There’s even Jeff Bradstreet pushing stem cell quackery. I can’t help but think of Kent Heckenlively taking his daughter to Costa Rica to subject her to injections of what are claimed to be stem cells right into her cerebrospinal fluid. To top it all off, there are Nathan Coombs and Rhonda Morris promoting the use of medical cannabis for autism.

I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve said it over the last six years that I’ve been blogging, but vaccine rejectionism is rife with pseudoscience and quackery. It starts out being based on a premise without scientific support, namely the claim that vaccines cause autism and all manner of chronic health problems. Once you start with pseudoscience as the very basis of your world view, it’s not very far at all to other forms of pseudoscience, and from there it’s just a short hop, skip, and a jump to homeopaths. Autistic children deserve better. They deserve to be free from uncontrolled experimentation on them using pseudoscientific methods. Unfortunately that’s what all too many of them are subjected to, and Autism One is not only far more about vaccine rejectionism than it is about autism. Worse, it’s a one-stop shop for anti-vaccine quackery.

Comments

  1. #1 Lawrence
    May 25, 2011

    You’d think there would be some universal danger in having so much woo gathered in one place…..

  2. #2 herr doktor bimler
    May 25, 2011

    Wait, what. Vaccines are a Bad Thing because they [or some of them] are made using cell lines ultimately derived from fetal stem cells. And the cure for the autism caused by vaccines involves MORE STEM CELLS.
    I think I must have missed something.

  3. #3 Lawrence
    May 25, 2011

    There certainly is no consistency with their positions….

  4. #4 MikeMa
    May 25, 2011

    While real scientists are studying genetic causes for autism, might it be reasonable to have them look for a genetic cause of credulousness?

    So much crap all rolled into one tiny ball. Not much hope any science will be discussed in spite of the fact that this steaming pile of scam and magic cannot represent the majority of autism parents and sufferers. We need an Autism 2 which only talks science.

  5. #5 blf
    May 25, 2011

    There certainly is no consistency with their positions.

    There is a meta-consistency: Vaccines are Teh Evil.
    Another consistent position: Lie.

  6. #6 Todd W.
    May 25, 2011

    I listened to some of that interview with the Geiers. Only made it about 20 minutes in or so, and not a peep about the suspension of Dr. Geier’s license or his son getting the boot from the MD Autism Commission. Just statements like “We don’t chelate” (makes me wonder what the experimental chelating agent DMPS was used for) and more nonsense about precocious puberty (which, apparently, they wouldn’t know if it bit them on the…y’know).

    My neck got sore from shaking my head in incredulity. Figured it would be better for my health to stop listening.

  7. #7 John C. Welch
    May 25, 2011

    I’ve never understood why homeopaths are against vaccines. I mean, with vaccines, aren’t you using “like cures like”, or something similar? Okay, yes, vaccines are based on science and study, and not purest crapola, but, still there’s a vague similarity there.

    It’s less vague than the amount of active ingredients in their magic water, that’s for damned sure.

  8. #8 DaveD
    May 25, 2011

    Homeopathy defenders do sometimes try to claim that vaccines are “homeopathic.” Yeah, right, but they do try to claim this. However, since the Autism One crowd is so virulently anti-vaccine, attempting to encompass this position would make their tiny little brains explode.

  9. #9 Stwart Jenssen
    May 25, 2011

    Autism is a disease that we must not overlook the fact already than anyone else is free to a family member suffers from her.

  10. #10 peicurmudgeon
    May 25, 2011

    An extra strong real dose (as opposed to a homoeopathic dose) of medical cannabis for the participants might chill thinks out a bit.

  11. #11 JayK
    May 25, 2011

    Why just the other day we had a commenter chastising Orac and the other commenters for pushing the idea that all chiropractors are operating from unscientific and pseudoscientific beliefs. Then lo and behold right there at Autism One is another bunch of chiropractors looking to cure autism through CST and energy balancing.

    This looks more like the place where chiropractors deserve to be, at a big gathering of their peers.

  12. #12 Denice Walter
    May 25, 2011

    Andy is presenting on “Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy vis-a-vis Autism Spectrum Disorder”:

    I am trying to imagine which of several ways AW will try to “work” this concept- consider the possibilities! Let’s see, someone physically *harms* a child or _lies_ about symptoms in order to get attention…sound familiar? To be serious: will he say that the parents *do* this, or are *accused* of this, or that pharma is the real injurer and liar, or his critics are the real child abusers for stopping his work, ad infinitum, ad nauseum… Again, “Oh, what a tangled web we weave…”

    Unlike Cyril Burt, who had the good sense to conveniently *die* before being publicly disgraced, Andy has to live with it. Just desserts.

    (Oddly a quick search led to 2 refs about MSBP and an “‘H.’ Wakefield” ( w/ Unterwager) 1988; 1989 ( @ ipt forensics.com)) MSBP can also be called “Meadow’s”.

  13. #13 superdave
    May 25, 2011

    There seem to be many scheduled talks. I hope some of them have real science based information in them, but I don’t have the time or expertise to judge just looking at the title and speaker of each talk.

  14. #14 Dr Sam Girgis
    May 25, 2011

    It’s interesting that Autism One starts just as the World Health Assembly has decided to defer establishing a date for the destruction of the world’s last known stockpile of smallpox. Smallpox is a disease that decimated millions of people. Through the use of the smallpox vaccine and extensive vaccination programs run by the World Health Organization, mankind was able to eradicate this disease from the earth. This anti-vaccine propaganda is likely to help the spread of diseases such as measles and polio, as well as others. This is very ironic.

    See my blog post about this topic:
    http://drsamgirgis.com/tag/smallpox/

    Dr Sam Girgis
    http://drsamgirgis.com

  15. #15 Krebiozen
    May 25, 2011

    I actually feel a tiny bit sorry for Andrew Wakefield. He had a good education in science-based medicine and worked for years in reputable hospitals. Now he finds himself surrounded by people who talk about ill-ness, homeopathy and related quackery, which he must surely know is absolute boll-ocks.

    @John C. Welch
    Vaccines are similar to homeopathy but they haven’t been through the process of dilution and succussion to eliminate their toxic (and other) effects. Plus, of course, they actually work.

  16. #16 TBruce
    May 25, 2011

    Hoo boy, what a hodgepodge of therapies and proposed causes for autism. Doesn’t it go through anyone’s head who is attending this Quackapalooza that maybe, if the “experts” are wandering off in all sorts of directions, they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about?

  17. #17 Ted
    May 25, 2011

    @TBruce:
    Agreed. Were I a parent who had a child diagnosed as autistic, and if this was the first time I attended this conference, I’d find about 15% of the agenda useful and woo-free- the overwhelming majority, however – oh, well- harmful in prevention, harmful in treatment.
    If it is not science-based, all one has is a bazaar of the bizarre, reminiscent of the traveling medicine men of the Old West.
    Oh, and Jenny McCarthy will speak again. It’d be great to have her insights, gleaned from the University of Google.

  18. #18 Denice Walter
    May 25, 2011

    @ Krebiozen: well, the natural sympathy I might feel for him gets somewhat eclipsed by the knowledge that he has sought out ways to exploit vulnerable parents already hard-pressed by the vicissitudes of daily life with ASD and stoke the fears of new parents about vax all the while *knowing* that it was absolutely fictitious. And it’s not as though he stumbled into this unawares- it was well thought-out. And still he continues. I mean, he *could* go volunteer as a medic for doctors-without-borders or do something else worthwhile- if they’d have him.I doubt he will.

  19. #19 Just Sayin'
    May 25, 2011

    try The One Quackery To Rule Them All, courtesy of Julianne Adams

    Any relation to Mike?

    She even uses a term that I hate, a term that is as good an indicator that you’re dealing with a woo-meister as any I can think of, “dis-ease.”

    How is dis ease different from dat ease over dere?

    Succussion: vigorous shaking with impact between each dilution, brings out the healing action of the substance while eliminating any toxic effects of the original substance

    I guess that’s why no one has ever gotten food poisoning from a milkshake

    Water is able to “copy” and transfer information

    Great! We can use it to make hard drives!

    “CST has been shown to help the individual with autistic features gain a calmer and more relaxed state of being by decreasing structural stress and strain.”

    Great! Everyone move to the Central time zone! But only between November and April (unless it’s Indiana). CDT doesn’t work quite so well, unfortunately.

  20. #20 Polly
    May 25, 2011

    Don’t these people know they can go to any mainsteam Doctor and get a referral (after being on a waiting list for a year or more) for “memorize and get a treat therapy” from a 19 year old high school graduate at $45,000/yr plus? With this cutting edge treatment being offered by mainstream medicine why would anyone even consider this quackery?

  21. #21 Narad
    May 25, 2011

    I think the real surprise here is that someone would choose Lombard as their favorite city.

  22. #22 Orac
    May 25, 2011

    Ar, ar, ar. I was, of course, referring to Chicago, given that Lombard is a western suburb of Chicago.

  23. #23 Ted
    May 25, 2011

    They used to meet right near O’Hare. I wonder why they’re in the wilderness?

  24. #24 EJ
    May 25, 2011

    I’m not sure medical cannabis is in the same realm as all that other nonsense. Cannabis has known anti-anxiety properties – how can that NOT help someone with autism? I have autism and I use it to relieve my anxiety. As long as we’re not talking about kids actually *smoking* anything, which is obviously not a good idea, I don’t see what the problem is. Guilt by association?

  25. #25 Scott Cunningham
    May 25, 2011

    Lawrence

    There certainly is no consistency with their positions

    They are consistently wrong. They will bend logic and evidence any way they must to be the furthest thing from right.

    It’s sad to see there are speakers listed here who appear to be doing real behavioural, developmental or neurological research (Maybe 5%). At least, they haven’t used woo words or proposed back-to-nature diets and lifestyle restrictions that’ll magically cure autism. Those speakers are in for a lot of cringing. I hope they bring some serious painkillers. They’ll need ‘em.

  26. #26 Todd W.
    May 25, 2011

    @EJ

    how can that NOT help someone with autism?

    If used to treat autism (rather than parental anxieties), then if autism shares any commonalities with schizophrenia, which the history of autism research could suggest, it’s possible that cannabis would make it worse, rather than better.

  27. #27 Orac
    May 25, 2011

    More importantly, there’s no good evidence to support its use in autism.

  28. #28 Trish
    May 25, 2011

    Please, give us parents some respect. Don’t assume we fall vicitm to “quakery” as we fell victim to mainstream MD’s telling us that there is nothing wrong with our child and it will be gone in six months. Also, don’t try to convince us when we see first hand that “all vaccines are safe and that injecting a baby at two days old” makes medical sense. We are smarter than that. As a parent of a child with severe autism, who was born healthly and has had every genetic test known to man, we need to look at all possibilities of healing our children, or to at least make them be able to function as a part of our family. You have NO idea, what it is like within the walls of this home and how devastating autism is to my son and our family. I never give up hope to try to find things that can help my son heal even if he is never completely recovered. Autism is brain damage. My child was not born with brain damage. His brain became damaged via external influences (perhaps vaccines, perhaps environmental). The science is out on that one. But instead of trying to blame each other and poke holes in everyone’s theories, why can’t the medical community get together and really study our children, really study the evidence and results. Thousands and thousands of parents can’t be wrong. I would love for vaccines to have NOTHING to do with my son’s autism, because admitting that it does, hurts me as I was the one who took him for those vaccinations. The guilt is carried with me everyday. And you have to know, that we are NOT ANTI-vaccine. We want SAFE vaccines, at reasonable timeframes in a child’s neurological and biological development. I grew up in the decades where smoking was considered safe and all that. Look what happened there. We cannot put so much trust in the Pharmaceutical industry, yet we let the financial gains guide our political and what is becoming ethical, decision making. Just know that we are educated parents, that love our children dearly and we do what it takes to help our child function in this vast, often unfortunately cruel and crude world. And it fills us with disdain that so many are quick to criticize instead of putting real efforts towards helping these children which are quickly becoming adults. What is life for our children going to be like then, when the shield of us as parents are gone to care for them? You may have to deal with AUtism One, every Memorial Day weekend, but we deal with austism EVERYDAY. I mean no disrespect to you with this post, and wish you well.

  29. #29 David N. Brown
    May 25, 2011

    @24:
    Where marijuana is promoted as an autism “cure”, I expect that it WILL involve administration to preteens and even younger children. That is, obviously, a line that even those who are open-minded about legal and medicinal marijuana are likely to be leary about crossing.

    Also, I am inclined to take this lineup as a sign of a tide turning against the Geiers. Ultimately, whatever else might be said of their Lupon protocol, it involves an actual medical product that could reasonably be expected to do SOMETHING of an objective medical nature. How can that compete with homeopathic remedies that by definition are placebos?

  30. #30 Chris
    May 25, 2011

    Trish:

    Please, give us parents some respect.

    Since when did Wakefield, Bradstreet and the Geiers become parents of autistic children? How is exposing those who exploit desperate parents not showing respect for the parents?

  31. #31 Todd W.
    May 25, 2011

    @Trish

    I’d suggest that you not be so quick to dismiss the folks commenting here as not knowing what autism is like. Many of the commenters are either parents of children with autism or have interacted first-hand with children (and adults) with autism. Some commenters are even autistic themselves.

    We know it is hard. We know about the emotional strain, and our compassion is with anyone who has to deal with that. However, that does not mean that we are not going to call out quacks who prey upon parents like you, who take away precious resources to help people affected by an ASD.

    We get upset because charlatans like Wakefield cast a pall on autism research, slowing down progress. We are angry because quacks like the Geiers essentially experiment on children and may even be defrauding insurance companies.

    There is research looking into the cause(s) of autism. Take a look at someplace like the Autism Science Foundation or the Lurie Family Autism Center in Boston. Regarding vaccines, if you take a look at the scientific consensus, you’ll see that there are lots and lots of studies that have looked at vaccines as a possible cause and come up empty; so much so that we can safely state that vaccines do not cause autism.

    I do not doubt that you are educated, but one thing that all of us need to keep in mind is that we do not know everything. We do not have the years of specialized training that others have. I am not trained as a nuclear engineer, so I’m not going to go around saying I know more than one. Likewise, I’m not a trained physician or neurologist nor am I trained in childhood development or psychology. “Common sense” about such topics is very likely going to be wrong. There are factors and details that “common” people like you or me just don’t know about.

    But we can go to those who do know. We can talk to them and learn. My suggestion, if you are really interested in learning and expanding your knowledge, go to specialists in the subject of interest. For autism, talk to people who have a strongly established background relating to it; people like developmental pediatricians, neurologists, institutes focusing on research into the subject. If you like, I can put you in touch with some folks who are actively researching autism.

    Shoot me an e-mail at todd [at] harpocratesspeaks [dot] com.

  32. #32 Scott Cunningham
    May 25, 2011

    When there are Alt Med charlatans lying and exploiting desperate parents, respecting the parent is different from always agreeing with what they believe.

    Most of those speakers are promoting highly expensive bogus treatments that offer no real hope of helping autistic children. Among them are Mark and David Geir, who promote chemically castrating autistic kids and using industrial chelators that can cause kidney damage. They are personally responsible for the death of at least one autistic child. Their treatments are not supported by the medical literature. Geir the younger has been practicing medicine without a license and was never a doctor. Geir the elder has had his license yanked in one state for recklessly endangering the lives of autistic children.

    Respect for autistic kids and their parents demands we speak against such dangerous and unproven medical “treatments” and chicanery. People believe it, but they have been deceived, in part by people who first innocently fooled themselves, and in part by knowing and intentional frauds.

  33. #33 eta c
    May 25, 2011

    Lombard isn’t exactly out in the sticks and is, as suburbs go, a nice town. If you’re there in May check out the annual Lilac festival. It’s fairly close to O’Hare. I suspect that they chose Lombard as it is, sadly, the home of the “National University of Health Sciences” formerly known as the “National College of Chiropractic.” I suspect that’s the site of the meeting and may account for the oddly large number of chiropracters on the schedule.

  34. #34 NJ
    May 25, 2011

    I don’t wish to fall afoul of Orac’s extreme distaste for argumentum ad typo, but Trish’s minor one in the 2nd sentence of post 28 just brings to mind a wonderfully humorous thought.

    Autism quakery: Where all the Autism One participants gather in a room, no one acts as a leader, and nobody speaks.

    Truly a conference I could support.

  35. #35 Autism and Oughtisms
    May 25, 2011

    Trish, from one mum of an autistic child to another, you do not speak for us all. It is BECAUSE I love my son that I will not subject him to anything and everything to “cure” him. There are safe and effective therapies already available that help our children function better in this world – physiotherapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy, use of PECS, to some extent ABA (though there are some legitimate concerns there), educational psychology, etc. You don’t have to turn to unproven (and in many cases, disproven) options that potentially and actually harm our children.

    I understand your desperation, but that does not forgive these people making money off it with false theories and therapies. It is our responsibility to do the best by our children, it is not our responsibility to try every new thing that comes along to save them; that is irresponsible. Please don’t let your desperation let people take advantage of you.

    My son has classic autism, it used to be particularly severe. Over years of therapy he has greatly improved. We never sunk money into these unproven / disproven therapies, but we came close a number of times because we got sucked in by the hype. It is our responsibility to figure out the quakery from the reality though. When someone like Orac goes out of his way in his posts to explain false theories and attack dangerous unproven treatments, you should be grateful he made the effort – it’s more than the people at that conference are doing – rather than attack him for giving a shit.

  36. #36 Th1Th2
    May 25, 2011

    We want SAFE vaccines,[...]

    Unfortunately, there is no such thing.

  37. #37 Chris
    May 25, 2011

    That is because Th1Th2 just found out they all contain dihydrogen monoxide!

  38. #38 Beamup
    May 25, 2011

    Wakefield, Handley, the Geiers, DAN!, et al have about the same respect for the parents of autistic children as a wolf has for a lamb.

  39. #39 Shay
    May 25, 2011

    The Westin Lombard is the venue for the Illinois Department of Public Health summit in June. Oh, the irony.

  40. #40 Ken
    May 25, 2011

    John C. Welch: I’ve never understood why homeopaths are against vaccines.

    Ben Goldacre’s Bad Science has a simple explanation: Because they can’t make money from them. Other people hold the patents, and you have to have expensive equipment and training to make and dispense medications. However, anyone can set themselves up in the sugar pill business, provided they take care to avoid a few phrases in their advertising. Not only that, but you can make up your own unique line of products and supporting spiel to distinguish yourself and your products from the rest.

    There is some small irony in this, since the alternative medicine crowd often claims the doctors are in it for the money. Which is true to some extent, but you may have noticed the homeopaths, chiropractors, and foot-bath-toxin people aren’t exactly giving their stuff away for free either.

  41. #41 Th1Th2
    May 25, 2011

    You mean that vaccines contain water. So what? Is that a hoax?

  42. #42 FMJ
    May 25, 2011

    That is because Th1Th2 just found out they all contain dihydrogen monoxide!

    Oh no!! dihydrogen monoxide!!! I heard it’s dangerous at very high temperatures!! Don’t inject me with that toxin.

  43. #43 Autism and Oughtisms
    May 25, 2011

    “That is because Th1Th2 just found out they all contain dihydrogen monoxide!”

    That reminds me of yesterday at the doctor’s office, getting my youngest his chicken pox vaccine: The nurse is going through her extensive paperwork to get my son’s medical history relevant to the vaccine, and to make sure I understand all the risks of the vaccine. (Interesting that not once did she explain the risks and side effects of chicken pox, anyway…) At one stage she shows me the list of ingredients and asks whether he is allergic to anything in the list, as she runs her finger down it item by item. Bottom of the list was “water”. I couldn’t help but smile at the time and was rather tempted to say that last one looked pretty dodgy.

  44. #44 Chris
    May 25, 2011

    Th1Th2 on SBM:

    And what is dihydrogen monoxide?. Is formaldehyde also a hoax?

    (that last part of that thread is an interesting look at her versus reality)

  45. #45 Prometheus
    May 25, 2011

    Chris,

    I wouldn’t be too quick dismissing the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide. After all, it is a significant cause of death, especially during the summer months. It is not widely known, but many of the people who died in the Titanic disaster did so because of acute exposure to high levels of inhaled dihydrogen monoxide.

    Also, studies have shown that almost all autistic children have high levels of blood dihydrogen monoxide, presumably from their childhood vaccines, which contain concentrations of dihydrogen monoxide that exceed the toxic level in humans.

    Prometheus

  46. #46 Th1Th2
    May 25, 2011

    Indeed. Sb is not only a haven for germ-denialism but also hoax-believers.

    Keep it up.

  47. #47 lilady
    May 25, 2011

    @ Trish: Many posters here are the parents of children who have been diagnosed with autism and other developmental disabilities. And, many of us have a science background.

    Those of us with developmentally disabled children know only too well the commitment you have made to your child. And, you don’t need to have a handicapped child to feel empathy for the parents who deal with their child’s problems 24/7 for years on end…while still maintaining a family structure.

    It seems as though you are “still on the fence” regarding immunizations and you express some anger directed at your child’s pediatrician and yourself for “allowing” immunization of your child. Please don’t do this to yourself because it has been proven over and over again that there is no link between any childhood vaccine, series of vaccines, combined vaccines with the onset of autism.

    As the parent of a multiply-disabled son with a rare genetic disorder with “autistic-like” behaviors and as a public health nurse, I hope that you will peruse the many recent studies that have totally debunked the vaccine-autism link.

    Some good websites:

    Immunize.org

    Immunization Action Coalition

    American Academy of Pediatrics-Vaccines

  48. #48 Th1Th2
    May 25, 2011

    So much for sharp teeth, eh?

  49. #49 Roadstergal
    May 25, 2011

    That is because Th1Th2 just found out they all contain dihydrogen monoxide!

    Do you know how many people die from that every year?? And yet we inject it into our children!

    I was born and raised in Chicago; my mom got her PhD from UofC. I hate to see crap like this going down there.

  50. #50 lilady
    May 25, 2011

    Please posters remember Rule # 14 and don’t feed the troll.

    Thingy is one sick troll and loves to take over these blogs…do not allow Thingy to pull her stunts again.

  51. #51 Chris
    May 25, 2011

    Well, Promethesus, someone told me recently there is a big difference between aluminum in the environment and in the body. It is obvious that may also be the case with H2O!

  52. #52 Th1Th2
    May 25, 2011

    lilady,

    Thingy is one sick troll and loves to take over these blogs…do not allow Thingy to pull her stunts again.

    Remember what I said, “I’ll just wait for your next post, that is, if you can answer my question.”

    No wonder you never came back. How does it feel getting a whooping?

  53. #53 Th1Th2
    May 25, 2011

    So these same germ-denialists would prefer the name dihydrogen monoxide rather than simply calling it water. I see.

  54. #54 Th1Th2
    May 25, 2011

    germ-denialism + H20-denialism = perfect combination

    Should I also add formaldehyde?

  55. #55 Beamup
    May 25, 2011

    Methinks the fool can’t tell when it’s being mocked.

  56. #56 Th1Th2
    May 25, 2011

    Beamup,

    Methinks the fool can’t tell when it’s being mocked.

    They said vaccines were safe, I didn’t know they were only joking.

  57. #57 brian
    May 25, 2011

    Actually, water intoxication is a real problem, particularly in infants.

    Of course, some animals (and some marathon runners) die from drinking too much water; this leads to low sodium levels, seizures, and perhaps death. Water intoxication is common in infants and children, too. Health authorities recommend that infants should not be given ANY water.

    Federal guidelines incorporate a series of “uncertainty factors” to determine safe dosage levels, especially in particularly vulnerable populations such as infants and children; each of the five typical uncertainty factors may require on the order of a ten-fold reduction in exposure. However, even if you know that a certain level of a compound produces no adverse events in studies of humans, the ca. ten-fold “Uncertainty Factor-Human” is generally invoked to account for individual variability. Thus a Federal guideline on the safe dosage of water for an infant would be about one-tenth of none whatsoever, and vaccine-phobic parents should be quick to recognize that the injection of even a tiny quantity of water in a vaccine would obviously constitute an alarming hazard.

    Just don’t try to dispose of water down the sink.

  58. #58 Prometheus
    May 25, 2011

    Roadstergal comments re “dihydrogen monoxide”:

    “Do you know how many people die from that every year?? And yet we inject it into our children!”

    Vaccines also contain sodium chloride – do you know what sodium chloride is used for? It’s a preservative for meat! Do you want them injecting meat preservative into your child?

    And before some “concern troll” or “outrage troll” objects, I have an autistic child, so I’ve “Been there, done that, got the ‘Walk-for-Autism’ t-shirt.”

    Yeesh! I wonder if these people think you need to have tertiary syphillis in order to speak knowledgably about STD’s.

    Prometheus

  59. #59 Th1Th2
    May 25, 2011

    Actually, water dihydrogen monoxide intoxication is a real problem[...]

    Be specific. Some bloggers here deny the existence of water.

  60. #60 augustine
    May 25, 2011

    rather than attack him for giving a shit.

    ORAC doesn’t give a shit about autism. What he cares about is autism has f8$*ked with the vaccine schedule and confidence in the mass vaccine program. That’s what he cares about. This isn’t about autism. It’s about the threat these parents have posed to the vaccine schedule. He puts ideals and ideology above compassion and people. His minions follow suit because they agree with his view of the world. It’s a godless view of a chaotic world where everyone needs security and a sense of control. If you don’t have it they are willing to sell it to you. If you don’t want to buy it then you must be labeled a heretic. Don’t trust your body. You WILL either get chicken pox and die or you will get chicken pox and kill someone else. Trust us. We’re science.

  61. #61 Yojimbo
    May 25, 2011

    Hmmmm! It seems they’re doing bridge maintenance again.

  62. #62 Th1Th2
    May 25, 2011

    Prometheus,

    Vaccines also contain sodium chloride – do you know what sodium chloride is used for? It’s a preservative for meat! Do you want them injecting meat preservative into your child?

    Hahaha. Sodium and chloride are among the most important physiological need of your heart meat to keep it pumping blood in your body thus keeping you alive. Of course, vaccines are NOT the only source of extraneous NaCl nor it’s a major source. If your honest to your assertion and I don’t think so, I would blame Modern Medicine for the cause of death of every patient who receives IV infusion and injection of a meat preservative.

    And before some “concern troll” or “outrage troll” objects, I have an autistic child, so I’ve “Been there, done that, got the ‘Walk-for-Autism’ t-shirt.”

    I don’t think it will make a difference.

  63. #63 Narad
    May 25, 2011

    Cannabis has known anti-anxiety properties

    Notoriously unreliable ones, of course.

    (And, really, “Lombard” just seemed uproariously funny when I tumbled out of bed. No slight intended. That I reserve for Villa Park.)

  64. #64 lilady
    May 25, 2011

    I try to not engage trolls…it is an exercise in futility. I especially don’t engage trolls who act as a tag team or who “channel” each other.

    @ Brian: Water intoxication (polydipsia) is a real problem with marathon runners who don’t replace fluids lost with electrolyte-balanced fluids. It is also a problem with the mentally ill who are on certain major psychotropic drugs. People who have been diagnosed with diabetes insipidus either primary (lack of ADH-Anti-Diuretic hormone) or nephrogenic (kidneys fail to respond to ADH) are at risk for polydipsia.

    The American Academy of Pediatrics states unequivocally that breast fed and formula fed babies should not be given water because of the danger of electrolyte depletion with water intake. Parents who attempt to “stretch” formula by adding water to the bottle put their infants at high risk, due to fluid overload and the resulting neurological insults to their developing brains.

    In the clinical setting, infants who have electrolyte and fluid imbalances due to diarrhea or vomiting require intensive monitoring of intake and urinary output as well as frequent blood testing for electrolyte balances.

  65. #65 Jarred C
    May 25, 2011

    So much for sharp teeth, eh?

    I don’t think people here fear jabberwockies. Maybe you do, though.

    Actually, water dihydrogen monoxide intoxication is a real problem[...]

    Be specific. Some bloggers here deny the existence of water.

    By that line of thinking, Austrailian ute drivers deny the existence of pick-ups.

    Remember, everyone, Th1Th2 is always intentionally obtuse, and discussions with her will go in circles – like a downward spiral. You think you’ll be making progress, and several hours later *BAM!* you find yourself back at point 1.

  66. #66 Jarred C
    May 25, 2011

    Cannabis has known anti-anxiety properties

    Huh. Cannabis also causes paranoia. Aren’t paranoia and anxiety usually intertwined?

  67. #67 dedicated lurker
    May 25, 2011

    So these same germ-denialists would prefer the name dihydrogen monoxide rather than simply calling it water. I see.

    My cat’s breath smells like cat food.

  68. #68 Autism and Oughtisms
    May 25, 2011

    @ 60
    “ORAC doesn’t give a shit about autism. What he cares about is autism has f8$*ked with the vaccine schedule and confidence in the mass vaccine program. That’s what he cares about. ”

    I don’t understand the point of second-guessing motives here. Even if you were right (which appears unlikely I should add), he’s either correct in what he’s saying or he’s not. If he’s factually correct, isn’t that always of primary importance?

    “”Don’t trust your body. You WILL either get chicken pox and die or you will get chicken pox and kill someone else.” Trust us. We’re science.”

    I’ve never heard someone pro-vaccine make statements even close to that. I’ve always encountered them couching the debate in terms of “here’s the risk with the vaccine, here’s the risk if you catch the disease, here’s the chances of catching the disease”. I don’t see anything to be gained by over-stating the argument to the point of error. I do believe one calls that a “strawman fallacy”.

  69. #69 Denice Walter
    May 25, 2011

    @ Narad: “Lombard” seems pretty hilarious to me as I recall that while reading *The Economist* some years back, a person was described as a “LOMBARD” : no, not a native of “Lombardy” but (as acronym) standing for “Lots of money but a real di@khead”

  70. #70 lilady
    May 25, 2011

    Hmm, it seems as though the subject of Orac’s blog…the junk science of Wakefield and the Geiers is being debated here. It also seems that parents who are still “believers” in the vaccine-autism don’t question why the Autism One seminars include three presenters who have been either struck from the rolls of the GMC, had his medical license suspended by the state of Maryland or is facing charges for practicing medicine without a license…interesting.

    I also find it “very interesting” that none of the anti-vax blogs have featured Maryland’s medical licensing board’s action to suspend daddy Geier’s license or the recent charges against Junior Geier.

    Many of the regular posters here have expressed outrage with the Geiers abuse of disabled kids. Where is the outrage from the trolls and parents of children with autism…who still are in lockstep with the theory of the vaccine-autism link?

  71. #71 Matthew Cline
    May 25, 2011

    I listened to some of that interview with the Geiers. Just statements like “We don’t chelate” … and more nonsense about precocious puberty (which, apparently, they wouldn’t know if it bit them on the…y’know).

    Wait, wait, I thought the whole justification of the Lupron therapy was testosterone was binding mercury up into “sheets”, making it harder to chelate. So they’re stilling using Lupron, but have completely changed the rational for using it?

    Remember, everyone, Th1Th2 is always intentionally obtuse, and discussions with her will go in circles – like a downward spiral. You think you’ll be making progress, and several hours later *BAM!* you find yourself back at point 1.

    I gave up when she claimed that immunoincompetent people have asymptomatic infections.

  72. #72 Th1Th2
    May 25, 2011

    I gave up when she claimed that immunoincompetent people have asymptomatic infections.

    Try measles.

  73. #73 Antaeus Feldspar
    May 25, 2011

    Don’t these people know they can go to any mainsteam Doctor and get a referral (after being on a waiting list for a year or more) for “memorize and get a treat therapy” from a 19 year old high school graduate at $45,000/yr plus? With this cutting edge treatment being offered by mainstream medicine why would anyone even consider this quackery?

    Just because you don’t think the mashed potatoes are tasty or nutritious or much of a bargain doesn’t mean the answer is to buy the magic beans that the guy in the alleyway is selling.

  74. #74 LW
    May 25, 2011

    @57 brian:  “Health authorities recommend that infants should not be given ANY water.”

    I don’t have children so have no personal experience with this, but that seems amazing to me. Is the idea that infants should receive fluids in the form of milk or the like, which would provide sodium or whatever at the same time?  Or that milk or the like would make them feel full faster so they wouldn’t consume too much? Or what?

  75. #75 Autism and Oughtisms
    May 25, 2011

    Polly @20. You’re obviously referring to ABA, which is hardly considered “mainstream” (at least not where I live). We did a bit of ABA for a while, but it hadn’t been recommended to us by any doctor, it was via the local Autism charity. I wasn’t too keen on their methods so didn’t stick with it for long (a few hours a week for a couple of terms) but by golly they got some good and long-lasting results that have significantly helped our son.

    You make it sound like that’s the only thing on offer from “mainstream” sources. What about speech therapy, PECS, social stories, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, visual schedules, just for starters. All mainstream, all effective, and not one of them leave your child castrated or dead. Bonus.

  76. #76 dedicated lurker
    May 25, 2011

    LW – it’s satire.

  77. #77 LW
    May 25, 2011

    Oh. Satire. *Blushes* Sorry, I got that the last bit about the risks of injecting water was satire, but not where the satire started. I know they have recommendations about putting babies to bed on their backs (or not) and not giving them pillows or blankets, but I haven’t paid too much attention so it was credible to me that maybe you really weren’t supposed to give fluids in the form of water.

    Speaking of what you should or should feed to babies, has the pediatrician to the stars shown up lately?

  78. #78 MI Dawn
    May 25, 2011

    @LW and DL: actually, the idea is that generally, babies don’t need water because they get enough liquid via breast milk or formula. Some doctors will recommend that in extremely hot weather a baby be given water, but it usually isn’t required. (Note, this says nothing about an ill or dehydrated baby. Only normal babies who are getting adequate amounts of breastmilk/formula)

  79. #79 Enkidu
    May 25, 2011

    LW, funny you should ask, because I saw this comment come up on my Twitter feed today from Dr. Jay:

    “Been thinking about no longer arguing with parents about vaccines and instead just give DTaPs and MMRs when they ask. A one year trial to see if any kids experience regressive events. The morality is questionable (abhorrent to some) but is it really my right to use my influence and impose my belief that vaccines increase the incidence of autism at the expense of their kids being at higher risk of these illnesses when the majority of experts disagree? (Right now, I argue fiercely about the timing and need for these shots.)”

    WTH
    1) So he ACTIVELY tries to persuade parents against vaccinating their kids if they come into his office and request the shots.

    2) He is going to run his own “experiment” on children. Even if I think that his giving vaxes will cause no uptick in “regressive events” there is something disturbing to me about suggesting a passive experiment like this with no oversight.

  80. #80 Jarred C
    May 25, 2011

    2) He is going to run his own “experiment” on children. Even if I think that his giving vaxes will cause no uptick in “regressive events” there is something disturbing to me about suggesting a passive experiment like this with no oversight.

    If he does this without an IRB, I’m sure some government agencies would *love* to hear about it.

  81. #81 LW
    May 25, 2011

    “Right now, I argue fiercely about the timing and need for these shots.)”

    Didn’t he deny being antivax, and whine whenever people called him that?

  82. #82 Th1Th2
    May 25, 2011

    Matthew Cline,

    I gave up when she claimed that immunoincompetent people have asymptomatic infections.

    You’re so easy.

    Unusual Presentation of Measles Giant Cell Pneumonia in a Patient with Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome

    The typical clinical presentation of measles in a normal immunocompetent host includes cough, coryza, conjunctivitis, Koplik’s spots, and rash. However, in an immunocompromised host, measles may have an atypical clinical presentation and may be commonly associated with severe pneumonia or encephalitis. We report a fatal case of measles pneumonia without any clinical features that suggest measles in a patient with acquired immunodeficiency syndrome.

    Next please.

  83. #83 Th1Th2
    May 25, 2011

    Matthew Cline,

    I gave up when she claimed that immunoincompetent people have asymptomatic infections.

    You’re so easy.

    Unusual Presentation of Measles Giant Cell Pneumonia in a Patient with Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome

    The typical clinical presentation of measles in a normal immunocompetent host includes cough, coryza, conjunctivitis, Koplik’s spots, and rash. However, in an immunocompromised host, measles may have an atypical clinical presentation and may be commonly associated with severe pneumonia or encephalitis. We report a fatal case of measles pneumonia without any clinical features that suggest measles in a patient with acquired immunodeficiency syndrome.

    Next please.

  84. #84 augustine
    May 25, 2011

    Liladay of local public county nursing

    I try to not engage trolls…it is an exercise in futility.

    I do not know your true intentional personal psychological belief system of what you think you’re doing, but evidence shows that you do quite often engage. A self awareness and reflection session is in order for you.

  85. #85 augustine
    May 25, 2011

    If he’s factually correct, isn’t that always of primary importance?

    If I’m factually correct then what’s your problem?

    Before vaccine 99.99 % of people did not die or have permanent disability from measles. I’m not taking a measles vaccine.

    Why don’t Science Based medicine cultists like that? It’s factual.

    I’ve always encountered them couching the debate in terms of “here’s the risk with the vaccine, here’s the risk if you catch the disease, here’s the chances of catching the disease”.

    If that’s all they did then there wouldn’t be much argument. But that’s not all they do, now is it?

  86. #86 Mandrellian
    May 25, 2011

    Before vaccine 99.99 % of people did not die or have permanent disability from measles. I’m not taking a measles vaccine.

    HUGE citations required:

    Which “people” – age, socioeconomic & health status?
    From which countries?
    Where did you get the 99.99% number?
    Are your sources credible?

  87. #87 Jarred C
    May 25, 2011

    Before vaccine 99.99 % of people did not die or have permanent disability from measles.

    Assuming that’s true, then the 0.01% still causes nearly 1 million deaths per year to this day.

  88. #88 lilady
    May 25, 2011

    Yup, I checked Dr. Jay’s twitter site…unbelievable.

    I hope some of you techies can hold that comment somewhere for when he comes back to post on this blog, with his claim that he is not anti-vaccine. Could it be that some of his mommies realize that much of what he says is not based on science…but on his “intuition”?

  89. #89 Mandrellian
    May 25, 2011

    Before vaccine 99.99 % of people did not die or have permanent disability from measles. I’m not taking a measles vaccine.

    HUGE citations required:

    Which “people” – age, socioeconomic & health status?
    From which countries?
    Where did you get the 99.99% number?
    Are your sources credible?

  90. #90 herr doktor bimler
    May 25, 2011

    @83:

    asymptomatic infections

    is different from

    a fatal case of measles pneumonia without any clinical features that suggest measles

    unless you consider that “encephalitis”, “pneumonia” and “death” are not symptoms.

  91. #91 augustine
    May 25, 2011

    Manderin

    HUGE citations required:

    Tell me I’m wrong first and that you’re absolutely certain that I’m wrong. The country is the U.S.

  92. #92 Olds Rockin' Dave
    May 25, 2011

    Dis-ease? Bull-shit.

  93. #93 CG
    May 25, 2011

    Thingy once again shows reading comprehension is far beyond its abilities.

    Atypical clinical presentation does not mean asymptomatic.

  94. #94 augustine
    May 26, 2011

    jarred C

    Assuming that’s true, then the 0.01% still causes nearly 1 million deaths per year to this day.

    Ah, so you’re becoming a science based medicine skeptic, Jarred? Numbers aren’t working out for your antennas?

  95. #95 Heliantus
    May 26, 2011

    @ Jarred C / Mandrellian

    Re: 99.99% not dying from measles

    Deja vu all over again.
    We (that is, us vs Augustine) already had this discussion many times last year, like in this thread. Ask Zetetic.

    The numbers are true, sort of. From what I remember, the rate of serious complications from measles is in the 1/1000, and not all complications are lethal (but they sure could be painful or/and have lasting effects – but a little pain is good for character build-up, isn’t it?).
    If the conversation continues like last time, Augustine is going to gloss over the fact that the vaccine lowers the measles complication rate tremendously, and itself has a complication rate in the 1/million.
    Actually, last time, Augustine was only talking about death from measles vs vaccine. It is now including other lasting negative effects in its 99.9+% number.

  96. #96 Narad
    May 26, 2011

    You’re so easy.

    You’re so easy.

    Oh, the….

  97. #97 augustine
    May 26, 2011

    Hellacious,
    You remember so well.

  98. #98 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    @83:
    asymptomatic infections
    is different from
    a fatal case of measles pneumonia without any clinical features that suggest measles
    unless you consider that “encephalitis”, “pneumonia” and “death” are not symptoms.

    Wow. Just wow. Asymptomatic measles infection refers to the absence of clinical signs and symptoms of a typical measles infection, namely cough, coryza, conjunctivitis, Koplik’s, and the usual rash. On presentation, these signs and symptoms are usually manifested by patients in which a competent doctor would make a clinical diagnosis. Since, you’re so incompetent and so dumb to even recognize a typical measles, how do you diagnose measles in a patient with chief complaints of “encephalitis”, “pneumonia” and *sigh* “death”.

    Have you ever accomplished an H & P.E.? What’s your license number?

  99. #99 Stuartg
    May 26, 2011

    @90
    Beat me to it!

    Asymptomatic means “without symptoms”.

    The quoted paper says there were no clinical signs of measles; it does not say the patient was asymptomatic.

    I’d have thought anyone would realise that death is a pretty major symptom, but apparently not Thingy!

  100. #100 Aaron
    May 26, 2011

    As someone who grew up next to Lombard (Glen Ellyn), it saddens me to see my hometown mentioned in this context.

  101. #101 herr doktor bimler
    May 26, 2011

    No-one could possibly have predicted that a troll would re-define the word “asymptomatic” to mean “having symptoms”.

  102. #102 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    CG,

    Thingy once again shows reading comprehension is far beyond its abilities.

    Atypical clinical presentation does not mean asymptomatic.

    Oh the stupidity and beyond. The patient did not exhibit characteristic signs and symptoms of measles infection what a doctor with a brainstem would gloat, “You see that?, That’s measles!”

  103. #103 augustine
    May 26, 2011

    Heliantius

    The numbers are true, sort of.

    No, they are true all the way. They are factually correct.

  104. #104 W. Kevin Vicklund
    May 26, 2011

    Augie, seeing as we have provided numerous citations that the case-mortality rate alone is 0.3% in the US (not to mention the other severe complications), you damn well need to provide a citation for a less than 0.01% severe morbidity rate in the US.

    You can’t provide one, of course. You’re lying, pure and simple.

  105. #105 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    Stuartg,

    The quoted paper says there were no clinical signs of measles; it does not say the patient was asymptomatic.

    Oh the stupidity is just so amazing. It is asymptomatic infection because an asymptomatic infection is also known as subclinical infection.

    A subclinical infection is the asymptomatic (without apparent sign) carrying of an (infection) by an individual of an agent (microbe, intestinal parasite, or virus) that usually is a pathogen causing illness, at least in some individuals.

    -Wiki

    I’d have thought anyone would realise that death is a pretty major symptom, but apparently not Thingy!

    Death is not a symptom, Stupidity is.

  106. #106 augustine
    May 26, 2011

    Kevin Vicklund

    You’re lying, pure and simple.

    Prove it! Pure and simple you can’t!

  107. #107 Andreas Johansson
    May 26, 2011

    Am I the only one who can’t read “craniosacral therapy” without thinking heads up asses?

  108. #108 Chris
    May 26, 2011

    Little Augie, it is standard practice that the person making the claim must back it up with actual verifiable documentation. Plus, it is our experience that those who refuse to provide any evidence is just making it up.

  109. #109 augustine
    May 26, 2011

    Chris

    Plus, it is our experience that those who refuse to provide any evidence is just making it up.

    So, am i making it up?

    I’m asking because I want you to be on the receiving end. Put your neck out there, please.

  110. #110 brian
    May 26, 2011

    @74 LW
    Yes (although I took us off-topic), as others have noted, infants should receive breast milk. Water intoxication is a well-recognized problem (although I’m not sure that that proves that water in vaccines causes autism):

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/100/6/e4.full

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00032470.htm

  111. #111 Chris
    May 26, 2011

    Little Augie, you seem to always provide evidence that you are only twelve years old. Of course, most children get over having temper tantrums by the time they are ten. You must be just a wee bit slower to grow up.

    By the way, young man, most of us do provide verifiable scientific documentation of our claims. So stop being silly, either put up or shut up.

  112. #112 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    Suddenly a lull. Always reminds me of this;

    Pigs become excited at feeding time and squeal or grunt until fed. After eating, they quiet down and often doze until the next feeding[...]

  113. #113 Sauceress
    May 26, 2011

    Suddenly a lull.

    Gee…at 3:08 in the morning? Fascinating! I wonder what possibly could have produced a lull at 3:08 in the morning? Are you drunk Th1Th2?

    Pigs become excited at feeding time and squeal or grunt until fed. After eating, they quiet down and often doze until the next feeding[...]

    Oh right. Must remember that quote next time you disappear from the blog for a few hours.

  114. #114 Sauceress
    May 26, 2011

    Forgot to ask: Where does this quote come from Th1Th2?

  115. #115 Krebiozen
    May 26, 2011

    Augustine claimed:

    Before vaccine 99.99 % of people did not die or have permanent disability from measles

    Here are some highlights from an article entitled, ‘The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review’.

    Before vaccination measles virus infected 95%–98% of children by age 18 years

    Vaccination protects >90% of recipients against disease

    Complications by age for reported measles cases, United States,1987–2000
    67,032 cases
    Death 177 (0.3%)
    Diarrhea 5482 (8.2%)
    Encephalitis 97 (0.1%)
    Hospitalization 12,876 (19.2%)
    Otitis media 4879 (7.3%)
    Pneumonia 3959 (5.9%)

    Even if you only include death, encephalitis and pneumonia as serious complications (though diarrhea and otitis media can be very serious too, and hospitalization does imply some degree of seriousness) that puts total serious complications at 6.3%, though we don’t know how many were permanently disabled.

    Unless measles morbidity and mortality have worsened considerably since vaccination was introduced, which seems somewhat unlikely, Augustine is wrong by a factor of at least 30.

  116. #116 colmcq
    May 26, 2011

    I think dihydrogen monoxide should really be hydrogen hydroxide

  117. #117 LW
    May 26, 2011

    I can’t believe I’m going to defend the pediatrician to the stars, but here goes:

    “Been thinking about no longer arguing with parents about vaccines and instead just give DTaPs and MMRs when they ask. A one year trial to see if any kids experience regressive events.”

    Some commenters have been describing this as human experimentation requiring an IRB’s approval, but I don’t see that. He calls it a “trial” but what he’s really saying is that he will finally start following AAP recommendations for vaccination (if and only if the parents are savvy enough to know those requirements and brave enough to directly request them). The only thing being tested is whether his antivax convictions are impervious to reality or not. 

    Given that he’s only going to follow the recommendations of the rest of the medical profession, I do not see how this constitutes experimentation any more than a doctor saying, “the recommended treatment for this condition is this, so we’ll try it and see if you get better.”

    But I’m not a doctor or a researcher, so I’m happy to be corrected by those who know better.  

  118. #118 Heliantus
    May 26, 2011

    @ Krebiozen

    Thanks for the numbers. I dimly remembered that the 1/1000 was for encephalitis, but I was not sure. That close to midnight, I’m not good at looking for data.

    @ Lilady

    I especially don’t engage trolls who act as a tag team or who “channel” each other.

    Ah, you noticed it, too? I was starting to believe that Th1Th2 and Augustine were Bonnie Offit.
    They sure do a heck of a work to make us more knowledgeable about vaccination and more comfortable in our pro-vax (or pro-science) position.
    Three years ago, I didn’t know much about the rates of measles vs vaccine side effects. Now I’m more nuanced in my position; I certainly wish we were better at reducing the rates of vaccine side effects. I also have some rough numbers committed to memory. That helps when confronted to their nonsense.

    Speaking of it,

    @ Augustine

    For someone who just gave us this lesson in ethics

    He puts ideals and ideology above compassion and people

    You sure don’t show much compassion for the children who will go through measles. Remember, >95% of people had measles before vaccination was implemented. Yeah, yeah, 99.9+% will survive it. We all know it’s fun to spend 3 days in bed with a rash. Or one week under intubation in an hospital bed.

    @ Th1Th2

    You seem to have missed my questions about infection in a previous thread. For your convenience, I will repeat them here:

    You seem to believe that you cannot have a specific immune response without an infection first.
    Could you then explain to me what’s happening in these cases?
    - a number of businesses are providing scientists with antibodies targeting mice or human proteins. Example: Abnova.
    They typically use a process derived from “killed” vaccine technology: they inject the purified protein into an animal, like a horse, a goat, a rabbit or a mouse.
    (disclaimer: I have no link to Abnova, I picked up this company at random)

    - and then there is the all-natural (and all-harmful) mother’s reaction to her baby’s D antigen, where the mother developed IgG against proteins of her baby because of prior exposure to such proteins.

    In both cases, the triggering proteins are not from a pathogen. And yet immune response is triggered. So, I am curious. Where is the infection?

  119. #119 Enkidu
    May 26, 2011

    @LW: “Given that he’s only going to follow the recommendations of the rest of the medical profession, I do not see how this constitutes experimentation any more than a doctor saying, “the recommended treatment for this condition is this, so we’ll try it and see if you get better.”

    I agree with you, but the way he said it just rubbed me all sorts of wrong. I guess because, in HIS mind, he is going to be doing an experiment, and to him its okay to just launch into that without any sort of oversight. Also, in HIS mind, he is going to be hurting kids and he is okay with that.

  120. #120 LW
    May 26, 2011

    “I agree with you, but the way he said it just rubbed me all sorts of wrong. I guess because, in HIS mind, he is going to be doing an experiment, and to him its okay to just launch into that without any sort of oversight. Also, in HIS mind, he is going to be hurting kids and he is okay with that.”

    Those are good points. I’m not surprised that he is okay with the thought that he is going to be hurting children.

  121. #121 lilady
    May 26, 2011

    @ Heliantus: Another example of reacting/not reacting to an antigen would be those who are seriously immune suppressed (AIDs) who may not mount an immune response following the administration of purified protein derivative intradermally for Mantoux testing for TB. Also those who have miliary TB infection may not react to Mantoux testing.

    In the clinical area, patients who require whole blood or packed cells transfusions have their blood cross matched and cross typed against donor whole blood or donor packed cells…to avoid transfusion reactions. Two more instances where antigens do not cause infections.

    (anecdotal) At eight days of age when my 5 lb. baby was to undergo heart catheterization, I was directed to the blood bank at the hospital for a blood draw for matching and typing due to possible trans-placental blood antigens. He lost one-tenth of his blood volume during catheterization and was transfused with 20 cc. of blood.

  122. #122 Justin
    May 26, 2011

    What do you do about somebody who understands that vaccines typically confer immunity to the pathogens they are directed against, but is weary of the potential ability of the vaccine to program the innate immune system in ways that may be detrimental to the child.

    I’ll be honest, this is my position on the topic.

    We are certain that the vaccine confers immunity by programming the adaptive response to generate long lasting antibodies as well as T-cells. How confident are we that the innate immune system is not also affected/programmed? Based on an emerging body of evidence this seems like an important factor to consider. Thoughts?

  123. #123 Chris
    May 26, 2011

    Justin:

    Thoughts?

    That you need to provide some reasons for your ideas. What studies are you basing them on, and please not something that goes down to how you “feel” about them.

  124. #124 TBruce
    May 26, 2011

    How confident are we that the innate immune system is not also affected/programmed? Based on an emerging body of evidence this seems like an important factor to consider.

    The innate immune system is involved in the response to vaccines. This is likely where vaccine adjuvants have their effect.
    Do you have any evidence that vaccine stimulation of the innate immune system has any detrimental effects?

  125. #125 Todd W.
    May 26, 2011

    @Justin

    I need to echo Chris and TBruce. Is there some research upon which you base your reservations, or is it stemming from a “what if” kind of feeling?

    If the former, well, we’d need to take a look at the particular studies that are giving you pause before we can offer any meaningful feedback. If the latter, I’d would simply say that we cannot live our lives getting swamped in an ocean of “what ifs” and groundless speculation. We need to operate on what we know and what we can reasonably speculate as a plausible outcome. If there is no firm basis to the speculation, then it is essentially meaningless (at least until such time as more evidence arises).

  126. #126 Justin
    May 26, 2011

    Chris, I am basing my ideas on the studies that implicate signaling molecules of the innate immune system, namely cytokines, in a wide range of behavioural disorders as well as normal brain development. Furthermore, I am basing my ideas on the emerging understanding that the innate immune system is implicated in a variety of metabolic disorders, cancers, heart disease etc. Lastly, the idea that not only genetic and environmental interactions are important but also incorporating an understanding of how development fits into this eqn is important.

    T-bruce,

    I don’t have evidence that stimulation of the innate immune system has detrimental effects.

    I do have some preliminary evidence that particular vaccines have a programming effect on the innate immune system. I am just trying to link some concepts in my head basically, hoping somebody here has some insight.

    So, if the innate immune system is an important aspect of many behavioral disorders and vaccines can modulate this response, wouldn’t it be important to generate hypotheses to test the potential for detrimental effects?

  127. #127 Todd W.
    May 26, 2011

    @Justin

    Just a quick note regarding your comment about cytokines. My understanding is that your body would produce more cytokines during a natural infection as compared to what is produced following a vaccine.

    As to the preliminary or emerging research, I would suggest waiting. Lots of preliminary research ends up being wrong. As more and more evidence mounts, either the finding doesn’t hold up, or the observed effects gradually decrease. So wait and see what happens. It may be that these emerging ideas are valid, or it might turn out that they are mistaken.

  128. #128 Justin
    May 26, 2011

    Todd,

    I am aware that a natural infection causes elevated levels of cytokines. On the other hand, recognizing this doesn’t generate any data regarding the innate immune response to vaccines or their potential programming effects. Also, I am curious if a qualitative understanding isn’t just as important as a quantitative understanding (which we don’t seem to have either WRT vaccines).

    I am definitely patient when it comes to emerging research, and this is good advice, thanks! and this has mainly come from reading blogs like these and honing my critical thinking skills. I used to latch onto ideas, despite my background in science, but I try to resist this based on my growing understanding of the complexity of many of these issues.

    What findings are you referring to here.

    -cytokines implicated in behavioral disorders
    -cytokines implicated in metabolic disorders
    -vaccines modulating/programming the innate immune response.

    just wondering bc they all have varying amounts of supporting evidence.

  129. #129 Prometheus
    May 26, 2011

    Justin (#122) has concern about:

    “…the potential ability of the vaccine to program the innate immune system in ways that may be detrimental to the child.”

    I’d have to ask what evidence Justin has that vaccines “program” the innate immune system at all.

    The problem with using vague terms like “program” is that people of different backgrounds and different degrees of familiarity with the subject may interpret them differently.

    To me, the term “program” implies that the innate immune system somehow changes in response to a vaccine so that its subsequent behavior is substantially different. Since one of the key features of the innate immune system is that it doesn’t adapt in response to challenges, I’m not clear to what Justin is referring.

    Perhaps this is simply a problem of imprecise terminology, but I’d appreciate hearing how Justin believes the innate immune system is “programmed” by vaccines and how this might be deterimental to children.

    Prometheus

  130. #130 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    Heliantus,

    Great. It seems like you’ve never learned from Mephistopheles.

    Well then let me explain why your given examples shouldn’t be called infection.

    They typically use a process derived from “killed” vaccine technology: they inject the purified protein into an animal, like a horse, a goat, a rabbit or a mouse.

    They derive their antibodies from wheat germ, being used as an immunogen, and not from  a pathogen hence this is not considered an infection. Not to mention, they also use a proprietary adjuvant to increase  antibody production. So no they are not infecting the hosts. Check their website.

    - and then there is the all-natural (and all-harmful) mother’s reaction to her baby’s D antigen, where the mother developed IgG against proteins of her baby because of prior exposure to such proteins.

    Well, that’s pretty obvious it’s not an infection nor the outcome is an infection. First, there is no pathogen to cause an infection. The immune reaction is not a result of an infectious process. So this is not an infection. But anybody with a brainstem would rightfully call this unfortunate event as erythroblastosis fetalis

    In both cases, the triggering proteins are not from a pathogen. And yet immune response is triggered. So, I am curious. Where is the infection?

    Well, if you keep barking up the wrong tree, you would not know the meaning of infection. First, identify the pathogen, the infection it causes and the resultant immune response against the infection. Good luck.

  131. #131 Roadstergal
    May 26, 2011

    Justin:

    Take some immunology courses – real ones, at a real school. You appear to have an interest in the subject, but you talk like someone who got a lot of information from Google U. (And not to be pedantic, but ‘weary’ means ‘tired,’ it’s not a combination of ‘wary’ and ‘leery.’)

    The innate immune system and its interactions with the adaptive immune system is a wonderful system that is still being very actively investigated, and is far too complex for sound bites on a blog. Cytokines are highly diverse in effect (both in terms of cytokines having distinct effects from each other, and individual cytokines having differing effects depending on the context) and interact with each other in complex ways.

    And don’t forget there’s rather an abundance of evidence that show that vaccines are not associated with a greater incidence of autism, so you would have to generate these hypotheses to be tested based on vaccines causing autism but not, er, causing autism…

    And also don’t forget that natural infections that vaccines protect against activate the innate and adpative immune systems like gangbusters.

  132. #132 Chris
    May 26, 2011

    Justin:

    just wondering bc they all have varying amounts of supporting evidence.

    Which are…? You seemed to have forgotten that you need to provide some actual studies that make you believe this is a viable line of query. Just post the journal, title, date and authors of the papers that prompted your ideas.

    Also, before you can show how something causes some kind of reaction, you first have to show that it does have an effect. At the present the several large epidemiological studies done in several countries over the last thirteen years show no real correlation between vaccines and autism. Many are listed here, with more here. There are more articles in PubMed showing little or no casual link between other things like encephalopathy, diabetes, etc. Those should give a good start on your research.

  133. #133 Krebiozen
    May 26, 2011

    Th1Th2
    So you claim that an infection is an immune response caused by a pathogen, and a pathogen is something that causes an infection.

    Do you not notice the circular logic there? A dead virus causes an infection because it is a pathogen, and you know it is a pathogen because it causes an infection. And round and round the argument goes.

  134. #134 Roadstergal
    May 26, 2011

    Do you not notice the circular logic there?

    She/he/it doesn’t even notice sarcasm. Don’t bother.

  135. #135 Krebiozen
    May 26, 2011

    There’s a blog post by Seth Mnookin about the financial implications of the US measles outbreaks that is worth reading if you haven’t seen it already.

  136. #136 augustine
    May 26, 2011

    Isn’t Seth Moonkin is a former heroine addict? I’m not asking him for health or financial advice. He’s a legend in his own mind.

  137. #137 Roadstergal
    May 26, 2011

    Isn’t Seth Moonkin is a former heroine addict?

    If Rosalind Franklin counts, I think I’m rather partial to heroines, too.

  138. #138 Ted
    May 26, 2011

    @Augie.
    Now that lunch break is over, you can go back to your little meeting in Lombard and get the plaudits of all the “Mommy Warriors” for your intelligent, rational discourse. Maybe Jenny McCarthy can show her assets to you – which would be about your speed, methinks. Learn to spell, BTW.

  139. #139 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    Krebiozen,

    Th1Th2
    So you claim that an infection is an immune response caused by a pathogen, and a pathogen is something that causes an infection.

    Do you not notice the circular logic there? A dead virus causes an infection because it is a pathogen, and you know it is a pathogen because it causes an infection. And round and round the argument goes.

    Well, it’s circular hence it’s called the chain of infection. And that precisely is the goal of vaccination: infection-promotion.

    You: You are spinning round and round with germ-denialism.

  140. #140 Marry Me, Mindy (fkaPablo)
    May 26, 2011

    While we are are talking about the Autism One convention, and the quacks who show up there, perhaps someone could answer this question (I have asked before but never got an answer):

    What has Wakefield ever done for kids with autism?

    Besides give their parents a bogeyman to blame, I mean.

    Even if his claims about MMR causing autism were true (which there is no indication it does), how does that help kids who developed autism from it?

    What do they do to treat autism at Thoughtful House? If they do chelation, then that has nothing to do with MMR. If they treat “autistic intercolitis,” what do they do that would be different if they were treating non-autistic intercolitis?

    I have always wondered why parents of kids with autism are so enamored with Wakefield. What is he doing to help them? Real help, I mean. Convincing everyone else to not get their MMR shot doesn’t help those kids who are already autistic one lick.

  141. #141 triskelethecat
    May 26, 2011

    @little augie: yes, he WAS once a heroin addict. He admits it. He also had the strenght of will to quit with help from his family and medicine.

    Unlike the AOA hero RFK, Jr, who also was an addict and had to be forced into recovery by the courts.

    I know who I would rather trust. And no, it’s not someone who denied his problems and had to be forced into doing something.

  142. #142 Composer99
    May 26, 2011

    I’ll take irrelevent ad hominem for $200, Alex.

  143. #143 Lawrence
    May 26, 2011

    Well, let’s see – we elected at least one President (twice, even) who was an admitted addict (recovered)…..so trying to use that as some reason not to accept actual facts is pretty damn stupid.

    But then again, what else would we expect from boring troll.

  144. #144 Yojimbo
    May 26, 2011

    @ Roadstergal

    I’ll toss in a vote for Lise Meitner :)

  145. #145 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    Roadstergal,

    And also don’t forget that natural infections that vaccines protect against activate the innate and adpative immune systems like gangbusters.

    \

    First, learn how you would protect yourself from acquiring the live measles virus in the vaccine before you can talk about secondary exposure to natural infection. Understood? Don’t put the cart before the horse.

  146. #146 Jarred C
    May 26, 2011

    Augastine said:

    Ah, so you’re becoming a science based medicine skeptic, Jarred? Numbers aren’t working out for your antennas?

    Actually, assuming it’s true, I don’t have problem with it at all. Is it true? I know some people posted things about a 0.3% death rate for people who contracted measles, but that was between 1987-2000 and only in the US; your original post said pre-vaccine and didn’t specify a region (so assume global), so those statistics wouldn’t really apply.

    I mean, it seems unlikely that the measles’ death rate would increase post-vaccine (and reducing the geographic profile), but I’m open to what the evidence says. Can you give me a credible source to the 99.99% statistic?

  147. #147 Lawrence
    May 26, 2011

    So, boring troll – care to actually respond?

    Augustine claimed:

    Before vaccine 99.99 % of people did not die or have permanent disability from measles
    Here are some highlights from an article entitled, ‘The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review’.

    Before vaccination measles virus infected 95%–98% of children by age 18 years

    Vaccination protects >90% of recipients against disease

    Complications by age for reported measles cases, United States,1987–2000
    67,032 cases
    Death 177 (0.3%)
    Diarrhea 5482 (8.2%)
    Encephalitis 97 (0.1%)
    Hospitalization 12,876 (19.2%)
    Otitis media 4879 (7.3%)
    Pneumonia 3959 (5.9%)

    Even if you only include death, encephalitis and pneumonia as serious complications (though diarrhea and otitis media can be very serious too, and hospitalization does imply some degree of seriousness) that puts total serious complications at 6.3%, though we don’t know how many were permanently disabled.

    Unless measles morbidity and mortality have worsened considerably since vaccination was introduced, which seems somewhat unlikely, Augustine is wrong by a factor of at least 30.

  148. #148 Grant
    May 26, 2011

    I guess I was too hopeful that the retraction of that fictional study would put these claims to rest. Having had a lot of experience working directly with families of children with autism, I understand their desperation. Many are willing to try anything, no matter how unusual, if it may lead to even a small improvement in their children’s demeanor. However, all these vaccine-blamers are doing is taking advantage of desperate parents and scaring parents of typically-developing children to the point where many are refusing to vaccinate at all. This is doing nothing but putting the health of other people at risk, especially young babies who are not equipped to fight off some of the vaccine-preventable illnesses. This frustrates me not just as a scientist, but also as a parent.

  149. #149 squirrelelite
    May 26, 2011

    My heroine vote goes for Danica McKellar. At least she understands mathematics, which is more than we can say for Augustine.

  150. #150 Marry Me, Mindy (fkaPablo)
    May 26, 2011

    My heroine vote goes for Danica McKellar.

    I love Winnie Cooper!

  151. #151 Krebiozen
    May 26, 2011

    I asked Th1Th2 “Do you not notice the circular logic there?”. She answered:

    Well, it’s circular hence it’s called the chain of infection. And that precisely is the goal of vaccination: infection-promotion.
    You: You are spinning round and round with germ-denialism.

    That would be a “no” then.

  152. #152 CG
    May 26, 2011

    Well, it’s circular hence it’s called the chain of infection.

    No, it’s not. Stop making crap up.

    This is the chain of infection:
    http://healthscience4.wikispaces.com/file/view/chain-infection.jpg/63017068/chain-infection.jpg

    It’s actually about infected individual infecting another. Something vaccination prevents.

  153. #153 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    CG,

    It’s actually about infected individual infecting another.

    Precisely, what OPV does. It promotes secondary transmission to others.

    Something vaccination prevents.

    Some vaccines are killed which do NOT promote transmissible infection to others. But what’s the point of secondary infection when every one else in the household and the community is intentionally infected by the killed vaccine.

  154. #154 Prometheus
    May 26, 2011

    I know I’m going against my own suggestion, but is it possible that Th1Th2 read “injection” somewhere and saw “infection” instead and that is the reason he/she conflates the two? Otherwise, it simply doesn’t make sense.

    Of course, that was what I alluded to previously.

    Just for the record, intra-household transmission of live attenuated vaccines has been documented on occasion to immune-compromised subjects. There is also, if I recall correctly, one documented case of a recently vaccinated child transmitting the measles vaccine strain to their younger (unvaccinated) immunocompetent sibling.

    I think what has a lot of people (no names, please) confused is that the oral polio virus has a propensity to “revert” to wild-type because the mutation causing attenuation is a relatively few bases. When this happens, it isn’t the vaccine strain that is causing any disease (although the term is Vaccine Associated Paralytic Polio), but a “revertant” virus – one that has reverted to wild-type.

    If so-called “secondary transmission” was as common as certain people like to claim, there would be no need to vaccinate large numbers of people – we could simply vaccinate a few and rely on them to spread the live attenuated virus to others. Unfortunately, that doesn’t work with immunocompetent people except rarely.

    Prometheus

  155. #155 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    Prometheus,

    I know I’m going against my own suggestion, but is it possible that Th1Th2 read “injection” somewhere and saw “infection” instead and that is the reason he/she conflates the two? Otherwise, it simply doesn’t make sense.

    If the injection consists of known pathogen, then it’s infection.

    Just for the record, intra-household transmission of live attenuated vaccines has been documented on occasion to immune-compromised subjects. There is also, if I recall correctly, one documented case of a recently vaccinated child transmitting the measles vaccine strain to their younger (unvaccinated)immunocompetent sibling.

    I wouldn’t be surprised. But then again, many have acquired primary infection through direct inoculation.

    I think what has a lot of people (no names, please) confused is that the oral polio virus has a propensity to “revert” to wild-type because the mutation causing attenuation is a relatively few bases. When this happens, it isn’t the vaccine strain that is causing any disease (although the term is Vaccine Associated Paralytic Polio), but a “revertant” virus – one that has reverted to wild-type.

    That is demonstrably false. The revertant poliovirus is NOT the same as the wild-type poliovirus. They are distinguished from one another. It also differs from the parental OPV hence it’s called VDPV. That is, thanks to OPV, vaccinators have created another disease entity caused by a novel monster that have mutated inside the host.

    If so-called “secondary transmission” was as common as certain people like to claim, there would be no need to vaccinate large numbers of people – we could simply vaccinate a few and rely on them to spread the live attenuated virus to others. Unfortunately, that doesn’t work with immunocompetent people except rarely.

    But still you’re promoting infection even to the immunocompromised. Not good.

  156. #156 highnumber
    May 26, 2011

    Chicago! Woo hoo! (He said “Chicago”! I’m in Chicago!)

    Will not be attending. Am busy, in the sense that you would have to pay me to go to this quackfest and you are not paying me to go, so I am busy with anything else.

  157. #157 CG
    May 26, 2011

    infected by the killed vaccine.

    You’ve been told many, many times how much nonsense that sentence is. If anyone ever though Th1Th2 understood a damn thing about immunology, that sentence alone should dispel that belief.

    That is, thanks to OPV, vaccinators have created another disease entity caused by a novel monster that have mutated inside the host.

    Except they didn’t. The OPV strain, even the revertant, still dies out. It can infect a few people, but never enough to continue the chain of infection. Unlike the wild type polio virus it simply cannot survive in the real world.

  158. #158 Luh
    May 26, 2011

    @157
    Poor OPV strain, it didn’t learn to stay on the damn pavement.

    Deheheh

  159. #159 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    CG,

    You’ve been told many, many times how much nonsense that sentence is. If anyone ever though Th1Th2 understood a damn thing about immunology, that sentence alone should dispel that belief.

    I would expect that coming from a germ-denialist.

    Except they didn’t. The OPV strain, even the revertant, still dies out. It can infect a few people, but never enough to continue the chain of infection.

    What kind of contradiction is that?

    Unlike the wild type polio virus it simply cannot survive in the real world.

    Well, in the real world, VDPV will survive for as long as OPV is used.

  160. #160 Gray Falcon
    May 26, 2011

    [citation needed]

  161. #161 CG
    May 26, 2011

    I would expect that coming from a germ-denialist.

    And you apparently believe in zombie pathogens, capable of causing an infection even though they are actually dead.

    What kind of contradiction is that?

    You claimed:

    vaccinators have created another disease entity caused by a novel monster that have mutated inside the host.

    Which is wrong. It can’t survive. Calling it a monster is idiotic at best and given your behavior probably deliberate dishonesty.

  162. #162 Heliantus
    May 26, 2011

    @ Th1Th2

    Ah, answers at last.

    Case #1: antibody production

    They derive their antibodies from wheat germ, being used as an immunogen, and not from a pathogen hence this is not considered an infection.

    I never said otherwise. Just checking.
    Actually, the wheat germ is just one of their applications. They are also using immortalized human cell lines to produce other proteins, like the HLA proteins.
    But that’s irrelevant. My point was exactly that you said: there are no pathogens in this process.

    “check their website” – dude, it would surprise you since it’s not your modus operandi, but I do check my sources.

    Case #2: D antigen

    The immune reaction is not a result of an infectious process.

    Congratulation, we agree on something.

    Well, it seems so. You just agreed that you could have an immune answer without an infection by a micro-organism, did you?

    So now, explain this to me. As we have just seen, we have the technology to fool a mammal immune system into reacting to almost any antigen we choose.
    So, where do we fail with vaccination against pathogens? How do you know that denaturated proteins from killed pathogens are causing an infection?

    And if I’m barking up the wrong tree, it’s because it’s the one I saw the squirrel climb up. So please explain to me where I’m mistaken so we can re-focus the debate.

  163. #163 herr doktor bimler
    May 26, 2011

    My heroine vote goes for Danica McKellar.

    Beatrix Potter. Her paper on lichens deserves more recognition.

    another disease entity caused by a novel monster that have mutated inside the host.

    Worst horror movie ever.

  164. #164 Heliantus
    May 26, 2011

    @ Th1Th2

    Oh, and by the way,

    But still you’re promoting infection even to the immunocompromised.

    You lie. We don’t. A suppressed immune system is a perfectly accepted valid reason NOT to vaccinate with live strains.

  165. #165 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    CG,

    And you apparently believe in zombie pathogens, capable of causing an infection even though they are actually dead.

    Those zombie pathogens you’re introducing into the body are foreign nonself and are recognized through their characteristic PAMPs by the host PRRs causing an immune response against that infection.

    You: You don’t have one iota of evidence. The only thing you can do is to deny.

    Don’t give it and you’ll have no infection. As simple as that.

    Which is wrong. It can’t survive. Calling it a monster is idiotic at best and given your behavior probably deliberate dishonesty.

    Trans: I am so ignorant about VDPV. I did not know about polio outbreaks in Nigeria, Haiti, Madagascar, Myanmar, China, Philippines, etc caused by VDPVs. I did not know that VDPVs will continue to emerge as long as OPV is used. I did not know that VDPVs is a different monster and distinguished from W-T and V-T poliovirus. I am so embarrassed that I didn’t know all these stuff until now.

  166. #166 dedicated lurker
    May 26, 2011

    Those zombie pathogens you’re introducing into the body are foreign nonself and are recognized through their characteristic PAMPs by the host PRRs causing an immune response against that infection.

    But you just said above that foreign material doesn’t always cause an infection. Why does this?

  167. #167 Matthew Cline
    May 26, 2011

    @CG:

    And you apparently believe in zombie pathogens, capable of causing an infection even though they are actually dead.

    Ah, but you don’t understand the true weirdness of Th1Th2′s definition of “infection”. According to her, if a molecule is ingested by a white blood cell and then presented on the WBC’s surface, that WBC has been infected by the molecule (so long as the molecule is of a type found in a pathogen). Since the antigens in a vaccine are going to be ingested and presented by WBCs, a vaccine is going to infect a person’s WBCs. And since a person given a vaccine has infected WBCs, the person is infected. Q.E.D.

    Note that (still according to Th1Th2) doesn’t mean that the molecule is going to replicate. Since infection must precede replication, it’s possible to stop at the infection stage, thus giving rise to infection without replication (so the dead pathogens aren’t zombies).

  168. #168 CG
    May 26, 2011

    recognized through their characteristic PAMPs by the host PRRs causing an immune response against that infection.

    Congratulations! You lifted a section on the immune response to a pathogen from a textbook!

    Go back and reread it. That’s not an infection. An infection is a pathogen replicating in a host to the detriment of the host.

    You don’t get to redefine words to better suit your purposes.

    VDPVs will continue to emerge as long as OPV is used.

    Quite true. However, stop using it and VDPV dies completely. In contrast the wild type strain would keep surviving indefinitely.

    You implied the OPV strain had evolved into a new strain of polio capable of causing persistent outbreaks. That’s not true and you very quickly moved the goalposts to hide the fact you lied.

  169. #169 Chris
    May 26, 2011

    CG:

    You don’t get to redefine words to better suit your purposes.

    Funny, where have I seen that before? Oh, wait, from a bunch of us! CG, Th1Th2 lives in her own reality where she gets to change the definitions of words at her whim.

    She is a troll, ignore her.

  170. #170 Matthew Cline
    May 26, 2011

    @CG:

    You don’t get to redefine words to better suit your purposes.

    Asking Th1Th2 to not redefine words is like asking gravity to fall of to the inverse cube of distance.

  171. #171 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    Heliantus,

    Well, it seems so. You just agreed that you could have an immune answer without an infection by a micro-organism, did you?

    Again, there are no microorganisms in your stupid example #2 (D-antigen) let alone a pathogen that would have caused an infection. It was never an infection in the first place. But why are you giving those examples? Because you’re a deliberate ignorant.

    So now, explain this to me. As we have just seen, we have the technology to fool a mammal immune system into reacting to almost any antigen we choose.
    So, where do we fail with vaccination against pathogens? How do you know that denaturated proteins from killed pathogens are causing an infection?

    Because vaccines are derived from disease-causing microorganisms. They are alternative to natural infection.

    And if I’m barking up the wrong tree, it’s because it’s the one I saw the squirrel climb up. So please explain to me where I’m mistaken so we can re-focus the debate.

    You’re definitely barking up the wrong tree. You will never find the squirrel in your given examples. You are lost, that’s all there is.

  172. #172 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    dedicated lurker,

    But you just said above that foreign material doesn’t always cause an infection. Why does this?

    Check out #155.

  173. #173 TBruce
    May 26, 2011

    intentionally infected by the killed vaccine.

    Inigo Montoya has something to say…

  174. #174 Narad
    May 26, 2011

    You don’t get to redefine words to better suit your purposes.

    Of course it does. That’s what it does. The question is whether it gets to do it on the fly, so that the usual inferences associated with, say, “infection” still apply even though the definition that formerly gave rise to them has been changed.

  175. #175 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    CG,

    Go back and reread it. That’s not an infection. An infection is a pathogen replicating in a host to the detriment of the host.

    Germ-denialism will not end this debate. So go on.

    You implied the OPV strain had evolved into a new strain of polio capable of causing persistent outbreaks. That’s not true and you very quickly moved the goalposts to hide the fact you lied.

    So we have a VDPV-denier here. Great. Listen up and educate yourself non-believer!

    VACCINE-DERIVED POLIOVIRUSES AND THE ENDGAME STRATEGY FOR GLOBAL POLIO ERADICATION

    As the global eradication of wild poliovirus nears, the World Health Organization (WHO) is addressing challenges unprecedented in public health. The live, attenuated oral poliovirus vaccine (OPV), used for more than four decades to interrupt poliovirus transmission, and the vaccine of choice for developing countries, is genetically unstable. Reversion of the small number of substitutions conferring the attenuated phenotype frequently occurs during OPV replication in humans and is the underlying cause of the rare cases of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) in OPV recipients and their close contacts. Whereas VAPP has long been recognized, two other adverse events have been identified more recently: (a) long-term excretion of highly evolved vaccine-derived polioviruses (VDPVs) in persons with primary immunodeficiencies, and (b) polio outbreaks associated with circulating VDPVs in areas with low rates of OPV coverage. Developing a posteradication strategy to minimize the risks of VDPV emergence and spread has become an urgent WHO priority.

  176. #176 Gray Falcon
    May 26, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    Again, there are no microorganisms in your stupid example #2 (D-antigen) let alone a pathogen that would have caused an infection. It was never an infection in the first place. But why are you giving those examples? Because you’re a deliberate ignorant.

    Central to your argument was the statement that killed virus vaccines caused infections because they created an immune response. This shows that an immune response can occur for other reasons, meaning your reasoning is incorrect.

    Because vaccines are derived from disease-causing microorganisms. They are alternative to natural infection.

    You already had the fallacy of composition explained to you, “A contain B” does not mean that B holds A’s properties. For example, the individual parts of an airplane don’t fly on their own.

  177. #177 Th1Th2
    May 26, 2011

    Gray,

    Central to your argument was the statement that killed virus vaccines caused infections because they created an immune response. This shows that an immune response can occur for other reasons, meaning your reasoning is incorrect.

    Let me make this clear.
    First identify the source: Pathogen: Yes, then it’s infection and there would be an immune response against the infection. Check #155.

    Pathogen: No, then it could be others and the immune response is against the offending antigen. This is NOT to be confused as infection.

    You already had the fallacy of composition explained to you, “A contain B” does not mean that B holds A’s properties. For example, the individual parts of an airplane don’t fly on their own.

    PAMP is not a fallacy. Learn how to read.

  178. #178 Krebiozen
    May 26, 2011

    Immune response to pathogen = infection
    Pathogen = something that causes an infection
    Infection = immune response to a pathogen
    Getting dizzy yet?

  179. #179 Heliantus
    May 26, 2011

    First identify the source: Pathogen: Yes, then it’s infection and there would be an immune response against the infection. Check #155.
    Pathogen: No, then it could be others and the immune response is against the offending antigen. This is NOT to be confused as infection.

    Err, yes and no.
    Yes, a live pathogen will result in an infection.
    But that’s irrelevant to whether an immune response will be triggered.
    Whether the antigen is from a live pathogen, from a killed bacteria, from a cancer cell, from the mother’s baby or simply some dust, the same mechanism is triggered in all cases.

    First, identify a substance which is non-self.
    Second, develop a specific cellular response and/or a specific humoral response.
    The immune response is always against the offending antigen.

    If the antigen is part of a pathogen, then your specific immune response will help you destroy your invader. If it’s not, then at best your white cells are just keeping busy; at worst, you get allergies or autoimmune diseases.

    You really think we are dumb enough to inject dangerous pathogens to children? It cannot cross your mind that, just maybe, this issue occurred to the scientists who developed the first vaccines and they found ways to minimize, or completely negate the pathogenicity of the germs in the vaccines?

    you are deliberately ignorant

    Here goes my irony meter.
    Oh, well, provide evidence supporting your view of the vaccine and the immune system, or rule 14.

  180. #180 Jud
    May 26, 2011

    augustine writes:

    Isn’t Seth [Mnookin] a former [heroin] addict? I’m not asking him for health or financial advice. He’s a legend in his own mind.

    Isn’t Saul of Tarsus a former Pharisee? I’m not asking him for religious advice. He’s a legend in his own mind.

  181. #181 CG
    May 27, 2011

    So Th1Th2, does Freund’s complete adjuvant cause an infection?

  182. #182 Sid Offit
    May 27, 2011

    @Lawrence

    Unless measles morbidity and mortality have worsened considerably since vaccination was introduced, which seems somewhat unlikely, Augustine is wrong by a factor of at least 30

    As you must know, more infants were affected by the outbreak about which you speak because of impaired maternal antibodies passed on by vaccinated mothers. And you understand, I’m sure, that measles is more “serious” in the youngest children. Additionally, it’s more serious in adults. The new epidemic has seen 40-45% of all cases in those over 20. They never had a chance to catch the measles as children. So yes, it’s quite possible that, due to vaccination, the illness has become more “serious”. As to the case/mortality ratio to which you point, you must realize cases are widely underreported, making the ratio higher than it actually is.

    Finally the hospitalization rate is now at 40%. Do you really think in the pre-vaccine era 40% of the three to four million children who contracted the measles were hospitalized. And now they’re hospitalizing children for ear infections so I would take those numbers with a grain of salt.

  183. #183 Krebiozen
    May 27, 2011

    @Sid Offitt I wrote that, Lawrence was quoting me as Augustine hadn’t responded.

    As you must know, more infants were affected by the outbreak about which you speak because of impaired maternal antibodies passed on by vaccinated mothers. And you understand, I’m sure, that measles is more “serious” in the youngest children. Additionally, it’s more serious in adults.

    The article I linked to does mention that the disease is worse in those aged under 5 and over 30. I refer you to Table 2 in that article. Here are some figures derived from that Table excluding those groups:

    34,233 aged 5-29 (51%)
    Death 53 (0.15%)
    Encephalitis 43 (0.13%)
    Pneumonia 1100 (3.2%)
    Total 1196 (3.5%)

    So even taking maternal antibodies (which are long gone by age 5) and later onset cases into account, the death rate is 0.15% and the overall serious complication rate is 3.5%. Ignoring the fact that there were likely to be at least as many permanent disabilities as deaths, Augustine’s figure of 0.01% deaths or permanent disabilities is still a factor of 15 out.

    You state that “the new epidemic has seen 40-45% of all cases in those over 20″ but the article I was quoting from found only 20% of cases (1,320 out of 67,032) were over 20.

    I excluded the hospitalization rate from the serious complications I mentioned. More serious illnesses were treated at home a few decades ago, so it is not possible to meaningfully compare hospitalization rates pre and post vaccination as a means to assess the seriousness of measles. By the way, ear infections can have serious complications, like deafness, meningitis and death.

    As for under-reporting, it is possible that measles cases were under-reported. It is also possible that complications as a result of measles were under-reported. Many younger doctors are unfamiliar with measles, and in immunocompromised patients it may present atypically and be misdiagnosed.

    Whatever way you look at it, measles is a serious and extremely infectious illness. Vaccination against measles has prevented a great deal of suffering and deaths. I really don’t see how anyone can argue otherwise.

  184. #184 Lawrence
    May 27, 2011

    Here is a report done about the “natural state of measles” in 1979 Rhodesia & speaks well towards the implications of the disease itself (hospitalization, morality, etc) at the time (and what past history looked like):

    http://archive.lib.msu.edu/DMC/African%20Journals/pdfs/Journal%20of%20the%20University%20of%20Zimbabwe/vol7n2/juz007002003.pdf

    And here is a great block quote from the CDC website:

    Measles Incidence
    Measles is very rare in countries and regions of the world that are able to keep vaccination coverage high. In North and South America, Finland, and some other areas, endemic measles transmission is considered to have been interrupted through vaccination. There are still sporadic cases of measles in the United States because visitors from other countries or US citizens traveling abroad can become infected before or during travel and spread the infection to unvaccinated or unprotected persons.

    Worldwide, there are estimated to be 20 million cases and 197,000 deaths each year. More than half of the deaths occur in India. For more information on measles in the United States and worldwide, visit the Global Elimination page.

    Measles History
    One of the earliest written descriptions of measles as a disease was provided by an Arab physician in the 9th century who described differences between measles and smallpox in his medical notes.

    A Scottish physician, Francis Home, demonstrated in 1757 that measles was caused by an infectious agent present in the blood of patients. In 1954 the virus that causes measles was isolated in Boston, Massachusetts, by John F. Enders and Thomas C. Peebles. Before measles vaccine, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. Each year in the United States about 450-500 people died because of measles, 48,000 were hospitalized, 7,000 had seizures, and about 1,000 suffered permanent brain damage or deafness. Today there are only about 50 cases a year reported in the United States, and most of these originate outside the country.

    So Boring Troll is a lying idiot & Sid doesn’t have any clue what he’s talking about.

  185. #185 myName
    May 27, 2011

    Saw this article, thought of you:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13561766

    Autism fears from the 90s now causing rising cases of measles in Europe.

  186. #186 lilady
    May 27, 2011

    Sid Offal states, “The new epidemic has seen 40-45 % of all cases in those over (age) 20. They never had a chance to catch the measles as children”.

    Offal is again cherry picking and showing his preferences for natural disease over immunizing against measles:

    CDC-MMWR Weekly May 27, 2011 Measles Outbreak

    118 cases of measles have been reported in 2011 YTD. 105 cases (89 %) were not vaccinated. In those ages 12 months to age 19, 39 cases (87 %) were not vaccinated. 42 Measles cases were reported in people age 20 and above; 35 of them (83 %) were not vaccinated.

    Offal, obviously they never had a chance to catch measles because of herd immunity from measles vaccine in their age group, but as soon as an epidemic hit they became infected and are now part of the new epidemic.

    Thanks to Wakefield’s 3 visits to Minneapolis to meet with Somalians to discuss “measles vaccine-autism link), 23 of the 118 new cases of measles reported in the United States YTD are the result of the outbreak in Minnepolis:

    The Index case is a unimmunized Somalian child who returned from a trip to Africa where the child was exposed and acquired the disease.

    Twenty of the 23 cases are epidemiologically linked to the index cases. The 2 additional cases had in exposure in Florida (1) and in India (1).

    Measles Vaccination Status of the 23 cases:

    7 Cases in infants too young to receive the vaccine
    9 Cases of age to be immunized, but never received it.
    1 Case received vaccine under age one, (too young according to CDC Recommendations)
    1 Case was vaccinated
    5 Cases with unknown immunization status

    14 of the 23 cases were hospitalized and there were no deaths.

    Still think measles is a mild disease? Still think we should put infants and immune suppressed people at risk… who are ineligible to receive measles immunization?

    Per usual, Offal’s statistics are awful.

  187. #187 Sid Offit
    May 27, 2011

    @lilady

    Your post as usual makes no sense. It’s like a bunch of random words strung together. And yes, Sweetie, the measles is a MILD illness.

  188. #188 TBruce
    May 27, 2011

    And yes, Sweetie, the measles is a MILD illness.

    Except when it isn’t.

    BTW, it’s interesting how the male anti-vax trolls can’t seem to hide their misogynist tendencies.

  189. #189 Todd W.
    May 27, 2011

    @Sid Offit (aka Mr. Mullet)

    I guess your GED from Google High School didn’t cover reading comprehension. You may want to take some remedial courses, because, well, lilady’s post really is pretty easy to read, assuming, of course, that one understands the English language.

  190. #190 Beamup
    May 27, 2011

    Gotta love those mild illnesses that kill and produce permanent brain damage.

  191. #191 Todd W.
    May 27, 2011

    @Beamup

    And deafness, pneumonia, severe dehydration, etc.

  192. #192 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    May 27, 2011

    Sid – what’s your definition of “mild”?
    According to the CDC

    About 30% of measles cases develop one or more complications, including

    Pneumonia, which is the complication that is most often the cause of death in young children.

    Ear infections occur in about 1 in 10 measles cases and permanent loss of hearing can result.

    Diarrhea is reported in about 8% of cases.
    These complications are more common among children under 5 years of age and adults over 20 years old.

    Even in previously healthy children, measles can be a serious illness requiring hospitalization. As many as 1 out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, and about 1 child in every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis. (This is an inflammation of the brain that can lead to convulsions, and can leave the child deaf or mentally retarded.) For every 1,000 children who get measles, 1 or 2 will die from it. Measles also can make a pregnant woman have a miscarriage, give birth prematurely, or have a low-birth-weight baby.

    In developing countries, where malnutrition and vitamin A deficiency are common, measles has been known to kill as many as one out of four people. It is the leading cause of blindness among African children. Measles kills almost 1 million children in the world each year.

    I agree, it’s not in the same league as, say, ebola but it’s much more common.

  193. #193 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    So Th1Th2, does Freund’s complete adjuvant cause an infection?

    Yes.

    Accidental self-inoculation with killed Mycobacterium tuberculosis in Freund’s complete adjuvant.

    The case is described of a laboratory worker who was carrying out an animal immunological experiment and accidentally punctured the palm of his hand with Freund’s complete adjuvant which contained heat-killed M. tuberculosis in a paraffin emulsion. A serious localised chronic tuberculoid granulomatous reaction developed which persisted for nine months. The significance of this phenomenon is discussed and the importance of the prevention of such an occurrence is emphasized.

  194. #194 lilady
    May 27, 2011

    @ Offal: They are not random words; the statistics I provided about the 118 measles cases reported YTD are the ones reported in today’s issue of MMWR.

    The statistics I provided regarding the Minneapolis outbreak of measles resulting in 23 cases are directly from the Minnesota Department of Health.

    So Offal, are you alleging that the CDC and the Minneapolis Department of Health are reporting bogus statistics and bogus epidemiology data?

    BTW, three additional cases have been reported in Virginia…the index case acquired the disease in India. One of her contacts is a confirmed measles case who attends a private school. The private school has a large number of kids whose parents refused immunization and the school has closed. Health officials are offering vaccine to the unimmunized.

    I’m not your sweetie Offal and hospitalization rates of 40 % (47/118 cases), knock out your opinion of measles being a mild disease. Even your twittering buddy Dr. Jay/pediatrician to the stars, has “tweeted” that he no longer will “talk parents out of immunizations”

  195. #195 Sid Offit
    May 27, 2011

    “TBruce?” Is that new? Like A-Rod or D-Wade? I like it. Anyway, I reserve the misogyny for those using derisive (yet childish) language to refer to me.

    Todd. I’d love to see a photo of you on Harpo speaks. I’m sure it would draw in the ladies like flies.

  196. #196 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    Beamup,

    Gotta love those mild illnesses that kill and produce permanent brain damage.

    …in the hands of incompetent doctors. (Hint: iatrogenic deaths)

  197. #197 Lawrence
    May 27, 2011

    SidTroll (maybe not childish enough for him) conveniently ignores plenty of facts thrown his way & instead responds with insults.

    What a maroon.

  198. #198 Sid Offit
    May 27, 2011

    Honey, your post makes no relevant point in regards to my post. I stated in the current outbreak ~40% of cases were in those over 20. This is correct. Your response goes off on a tangent and neither refutes nor addresses anything in my post. So be a dear and try to stay on topic when responding. Thanks so much.

  199. #199 CG
    May 27, 2011

    You hear that Thingy? That’s the collective sound of the world’s immunologists groaning in agony at your idiocy.

    Try reading that paper. I’d wager large sums of money the word infection was never used.

    I knew someone who accidentally stabbed himself with a needle filled with LPS (he lived). Did he infect himself?

  200. #200 Sid Offit
    May 27, 2011

    Yes, Kerbiozen, I agree, ear infections are deadly…..if you live in a house covered in feces, garbage. In the real would not so much. Anyway your next point:

    More serious illnesses were treated at home a few decades ago, so it is not possible to meaningfully compare hospitalization rates pre and post vaccination as a means to assess the seriousness of measles.

    …is based on exactly what, now?

    And no it’s not possible that cases are underreported, it’s a scientifically supported fact that they are – and that more severe cases are more likely to be captured.

    Lawrence, I don’t live in Rhodesia.

  201. #201 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    Try reading that paper. I’d wager large sums of money the word infection was never used.

    Are you betting that the “serious localised chronic tuberculoid granulomatous reaction” was not caused by M. tuberculosis?

    I knew someone who accidentally stabbed himself with a needle filled with LPS (he lived). Did he infect himself?

    Then name the pathogen from which the LPS was derived.

  202. #202 lilady
    May 27, 2011

    @ Sid Offal…Robert Schecter…or whatever. I take credit for changing your name, because you have written so many scurrilous attacks about Dr. Paul Offit. If you want to stop me from referring to you as Offal…just post under your real name or a name that doesn’t deride our most esteemed physician and researcher in the field of immunology.

    In the meantime, I think Offal is a very descriptive name for the non-scientific drivel that you promote.

  203. #203 Sid Offit
    May 27, 2011

    Doesn’t bother me. Just explaining a point to T-Bruce.

  204. #204 CG
    May 27, 2011

    Are you betting that the “serious localised chronic tuberculoid granulomatous reaction” was not caused by M. tuberculosis?

    Technically it wasn’t. It was caused by killed M. tuberculosis, which isn’t really a pathogen anymore, being that it is dead.

    I am also sure the authors used the actual terminology, unlike you. You’ve already admitted you can have an immune response in the absence of a pathogen. That was an immune response in the absence of an infection and a living pathogen.

    Then name the pathogen from which the LPS was derived.

    E. coli K12, which isn’t a pathogen by any stretch of the imagination. However, it’s LPS is identical to many other strains of E. coli that are. I’m quite curious how your warped mind will handle that.

  205. #205 TBruce
    May 27, 2011

    Doesn’t bother me. Just explaining a point to T-Bruce.

    By that reasoning, I’m sure you would have some nice names for any “insulting” commenters who are African-American or Hispanic.

  206. #206 Lawrence
    May 27, 2011

    Well Sid – people have asked for some background, how measles was viewed in the past, and I thought that report addressed it very well, because it also included quite a bit of data from Western countries as well.

    But, since you obviously can’t read or at minimum comprehend the words put in front of you, I guess it is a moot point.

    Maroon x 2

  207. #207 Todd W.
    May 27, 2011

    @Lawrence

    Hmm…three more and he’ll be Maroon 5.

  208. #208 Lawrence
    May 27, 2011

    Gotta get a bit creative nowadays, sometimes the best labels are the old labels….

  209. #209 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,  

    Technically it wasn’t. It was caused by killed M. tuberculosis, which isn’t really a pathogen anymore, being that it is dead.

    What do you mean? The poor guy technically injected himself with M. tuberculosis which is, by the way, well known to cause tuberculoid granulomatous reaction because such granuloma formation is a hallmark of infection of pathogenic Mycobacteria spp.

     

    You’ve already admitted you can have an immune response in the absence of a pathogen. That was an immune response in the absence of an infection and a living pathogen.

    Fool. There was a pathogen.  Regardless whether the Mycobacteria is killed or live, granuloma formation would depend on the site of infection i.e. cutaneous infection for killed whereas if it’s live then it might involve lymphatic tissues.  Like I said before, the only thing you can do now is to echo your persistent germ-denialism.

    E. coli K12, which isn’t a pathogen by any stretch of the imagination. However, it’s LPS is identical to many other strains of E. coli that are. I’m quite curious how your warped mind will handle that.

    Again. Stop barking up the wrong tree. When will you ever stop humiliating yourself?  The K12 is a nonpathogenic strain of E. coli hence it’s a normal flora. It’s not the “squirrel” you’re looking for. Try E. coli O:157:H7 instead.

  210. #210 dedicated lurker
    May 27, 2011

    Sid, of course you don’t live in Rhodesia. No one lives in Rhodesia, since there’s no country by that name anymore.

  211. #211 dedicated lurker
    May 27, 2011

    Sid, of course you don’t live in Rhodesia. No one lives in Rhodesia, since there’s no country by that name anymore.

  212. #212 CG
    May 27, 2011

    E. coli O:157:H7 instead.

    Which is the organism I actually work with. It was also not the source of the LPS. K12 was. So is being injected with K12 LPS an infection?

    And don’t try to change the subject to another organism again.

  213. #213 Prometheus
    May 27, 2011

    Mentioned above:

    “What do you mean? The poor guy technically injected himself with M. tuberculosis which is, by the way, well known to cause tuberculoid granulomatous reaction because such granuloma formation is a hallmark of infection of pathogenic Mycobacteria spp.”

    While “tuberculoid” granulomas (more typically called “caseating granulomas”) are a “hallmark” of tuberculosis, their presence is not diagnostic of M. tuberculosis nor is their absence evidence that M. tuberculosis is absent. In fact, the same sort of granulomatous reaction can be seen if the purified cell wall and lipids of any of the Mycobacteriaceae are injected under the skin.

    At what point is the “pathogen” so reduced to simple components that it is no longer a “pathogen”? Well, in real microbiology and immunology, once it is dead (i.e. no longer able to maintain metabolic functions and transmembrane gradients), it is no longer a “pathogen”, although (as noted above) it can still trigger a significant immune response.

    Here’s the point that seems to be missed – the immune system doesn’t discriminate between live and dead bacteria; it “sees” only the molecules they are composed of. If those molecules are present (in the same concentrations), the immune reaction will be the same as if the intact organism were present. That is the essence of vaccination.

    “Again. Stop barking up the wrong tree. When will you ever stop humiliating yourself? The K12 is a nonpathogenic strain of E. coli hence it’s a normal flora. It’s not the “squirrel” you’re looking for. Try E. coli O:157:H7 instead.”

    In truth, E. coli K12 isn’t “normal flora” – not anymore. Although it was first isolated (1922) from presumably “normal” flora (in a patient recovering from diphtheria), its long sojourn in the lab has led it to lose some genes (the O antigen genes) and (in many lab strains) the F plasmid and the lambda phage.

    However, the lipopolysaccharide (LPS) of “normal flora” E. coli and the LPS of E. coli O157:H7 will cause the same immune reaction when injected for the simple reason that the immune system responds similarly (and negatively) to all bacterial LPS. The immune system doesn’t “know” that normal gut E. coli are “normal flora” and that E. coli O157:H7 is a “pathogen” because neither are supposed to be in the blood or subcutaneous tissues.

    I haven’t the slightest idea where “Th1Th2″ got the notion that dead bacteria and viruses or even fragments or subunits of bacteria and viruses are “pathogens” when injected. It doesn’t make any sense and is – at best – a highly eccentric reading of a very simplistic view of the immune system’s response.

    The immune system pretty much “sees” the world as divided into “self” and “not-self” and reacts against the latter. For some things (e.g. LPS), the response is “hard-wired” to be rather severe, which is why people die of septic shock.

    But, as has been demonstrated repeatedly, the immune system can’t tell if the viral or bacterial antigen is displayed on an intact virus or bacteria or if it is on a styrene bead or the tip of a platinum wire or floating free in the serum – the reaction is the same.

    No doubt, “Th1Th2″ will see this as vindicating his/her obtuse view of the immune system, “See, the immune system reacts the same whether the bacteria is living or dead, whole or fragmented, so it’s a ‘pathogen’ no matter what!”. However, the immune system will also react in a similar way to a splinter, a bit of glass or even some of your own tissues (e.g. retina), so are these to be called “pathogens” as well?

    I have no illusion that this will convince “Th1Th2″ of the errors of his/her ways, but I hope this will be helpful to any readers who are confused by the argument.

    Prometheus

  214. #214 Gray Falcon
    May 27, 2011

    Also, Th1Th2 still fails to comprehend the fallacy of composition.

  215. #215 augustine
    May 27, 2011

    Jud

    Isn’t Saul of Tarsus a former Pharisee? I’m not asking him for religious advice. He’s a legend in his own mind.

    Which would make him knowledgeable in the Torah.

    Heroin use makes you an infectious disease and vaccine expert? Maybe he had divine intervention from the heroin god that has spurred him on to be passionate about writing books on mass vaccine philosophy.

    Did you know that heroin addicts are not healthy people no matter how much they know about health? I wonder if he was telling his former heroin addict buddies “make sure you get your vaccinations. Those little bugs will kill you. Hey can you hold this for me? Thanks…ahhhhh. Nothing ever bad comes out of a needle. I think I’ll write a book about it.”

  216. #216 Lawrence
    May 27, 2011

    Still can’t admit you were wrong, can you boring troll?

    Run along now – a village somewhere is missing its idiot.

  217. #217 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    Which is the organism I actually work with. It was also not the source of the LPS. K12 was. So is being injected with K12 LPS an infection

    First identify the source. Find the pathogen. K12 is not considered a human pathogen. Will it cause an infection? No.

    And don’t try to change the subject to another organism again.

    And don’t switch those LPS.

  218. #218 Lawrence
    May 27, 2011

    Actually, make that two (or three now, I lost track of all of our current crop of trolls in this thread) villages missing their idiots.

  219. #219 CG
    May 27, 2011

    And don’t switch those LPS.

    I didn’t. Commercially available LPS is always K12. That is what he stuck himself with.

    Was that an infection?

    You say no, since K12 isn’t a pathogen.

    However, EHEC LPS is identical and it is a pathogen (of humans, not cows). So that would be an infection by your definition.

    I just got Thingy to admit that identical molecules know if they are from a human pathogen. I will now stop playing with the troll.

  220. #220 Prometheus
    May 27, 2011

    Wait a second! Did I read that correctly?

    In response to the question:

    “So is being injected with K12 LPS an infection?”

    Th1Th2 answered:

    “First identify the source. Find the pathogen. K12 is not considered a human pathogen. Will it cause an infection? No.”

    So, the immune reaction to E. coli K12 LPS, which will be indistinguishable from the reaction to LPS from E. coli O157:H7, is somehow qualitatively or quantitatively different because E. coli K12 isn’t a “pathogen”? What nonsense!

    Either E. coli K12 or E. coli O157:H7 injected into the body would be pathogens. Even the “normal flora” E. coli are “pathogens” if they are in the tissues or bloodstream.

    I know it’s been said many times before: “Th1Th2″ has an internal definition of “pathogen” that differs from that used by the rest of the world.

    Unbelievable!

    Prometheus

  221. #221 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    However, EHEC LPS is identical and it is a pathogen (of humans, not cows). So that would be an infection by your definition.

    Where is this EHEC LPS derived from considering K12 is not EHEC?

  222. #222 CG
    May 27, 2011

    Where is this EHEC LPS derived from considering K12 is not EHEC?

    You’re avoiding the question.

    My original example was someone who stuck himself with K12 LPS.
    You said this is would not be an infection since K12 is not a pathogen.

    However, O157:H7 LPS is identical, yet if he did the same thing with LPS derived from this strain instead, it would be an infection by your definition.

    Even though the molecule is identical and it will induce an identical response.

  223. #223 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    Prometheus,

    So, the immune reaction to E. coli K12 LPS, which will be indistinguishable from the reaction to LPS from E. coli O157:H7, is somehow qualitatively or quantitatively different because E. coli K12 isn’t a “pathogen”? What nonsense!

    K12 is NOT EHEC. Big difference.

    Either E. coli K12 or E. coli O157:H7 injected into the body would be pathogens. Even the “normal flora” E. coli are “pathogens” if they are in the tissues or bloodstream.

    There are pathogenic as well as nonpathogenic microorganisms that can be introduced into the bloodstream or tissues. Don’t bark up the wrong tree. So which “squirrel” did you see?

  224. #224 augustine
    May 27, 2011

    @Larry,

    3-4 million measles cases per year in the U.S. pre vaccine 450 deaths per year. ~150 million census.

    99.99% case survival
    99.9997% population survival

    Woe is me. Dem measles is a comin’

    Also take into account that nutrition plays a major factor in measles survival and you’ll see that risk is not homogenous like science based cultist would lead to believe.

    I never understood that term Science “Based” Medicine, anyway. Either it’s science or it’s not. Medicine is NOT science. No amount of word play will make it so.

  225. #225 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    You’re avoiding the question.

    No I’m not. I’m trying to show you where the “squirrel” is so you can stop barking up the wrong tree.

    However, O157:H7 LPS is identical, yet if he did the same thing with LPS derived from this strain instead, it would be an infection by your definition.

    They are not the same. They are distinguished from one another. The K12 LPS is not diarrheagenic unlike the pathogenic O157:H7 LPS.

    Even though the molecule is identical and it will induce an identical response.

    False. Remember PAMPs. Unlike you, they don’t bark up the wrong tree. “It’s the squirrel!!!”

  226. #226 CG
    May 27, 2011

    K12 is NOT EHEC. Big difference.

    Thingy says some that is technically correct for once! About a quarter of their genomes are different.

    Their core genes are practically identical though, and their lipid A is 100% identical. E. colis pretty much have the basic lipid A, no fancy modifications. That means theirs is actually the most immunogenic variant there is.

    That also means all E. coli LPS activates the immune system in an identical manner. Pathogen or not, the molecule is the same.

  227. #227 CG
    May 27, 2011

    They are not the same. They are distinguished from one another. The K12 LPS is not diarrheagenic unlike the pathogenic O157:H7 LPS.

    Except they are. The LPS does not contribute to the diarrhea, the type 3 secretion system which damages epithelial cells does that. During the course of infection, your immune cells should never even see its LPS. EHEC does not invade, which is probably why it never bothered to modify it. There’s no reason to.

  228. #228 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 27, 2011

    3-4 million measles cases per year in the U.S. pre vaccine 450 deaths per year. ~150 million census.

    So 450 preventable deaths of children a year—or ~1000 today with the population increase—would be perfectly fine to maintain the purity of your Precious Bodily Fluids? Die in a fire, augustine.

  229. #229 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    EHEC does not invade, which is probably why it never bothered to modify it. There’s no reason to.

    So what’s causing the kidneys to fail (HUS), meningitis, colitis and diarrhea? Can the molecules of nonpathogenic K12 capable of doing that?

    Except they are. The LPS does not contribute to the diarrhea, the type 3 secretion system which damages epithelial cells does that. During the course of infection, your immune cells should never even see its LPS.

    Yeah right.

    Diarrhea caused by Escherichia coli is one of the important causes of infant morbidity and mortality in developing countries. We investigated the effects of bovine lactoferrin (BLf) on lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-induced diarrheogenic activity, gastrointestinal transit (GIT), and intestinal fluid content in mice. LPS accumulated abundant fluid in the small intestine in a dose-dependent manner, induced diarrhea, but decreased the GIT.

  230. #230 Sauceress
    May 27, 2011

    @224 TH1Th2

    Remember PAMPs. Unlike you, they don’t bark up the wrong tree. “It’s the squirrel!!!”

    TH1TH2 throws around,and professes an understanding of, the term PAMP in an ignorant effort to push its unique concept of the term infection. As usual, it hasn’t bothered to read and learn the basic characteristics of PAMP

    Referencing wiki here as TH1Th2 hasn’t been doing so well reading, or rather not reading, the Immunobiology text with which it professes familiarity.

    This information from wiki on PAMP is supported by the literature.

    Pathogen-associated molecular patterns, or PAMPs, are molecules associated with groups of pathogens, that are recognized by cells of the innate immune system. These molecules can be referred to as small molecular motifs conserved within a class of microbes. They are recognized by Toll-like receptors (TLRs) and other pattern recognition receptors (PRRs) in both plants and animals.

    They activate innate immune responses, protecting the host from infection, by identifying some conserved non-self molecules. Bacterial Lipopolysaccharide (LPS), an endotoxin found on the bacterial cell membrane of a bacterium, is considered to be the prototypical PAMP.

    Now pay special attention TH1Th2..

    The term “PAMP” has been criticized on the grounds that most microbes, not only pathogens, express the molecules detected; the term microbe-associated molecular pattern[1], or MAMP[2], has therefore been proposed.

    My bold.

  231. #231 Stu
    May 27, 2011

    CG, are you seriously debating this psychopathic clownshoe?

    For fuck’s sake, this is the one that has a definition of intravenous that includes the smoke from the cigarette I now have to smoke to calm down after reading this raging personality disorder on wheels ruin yet another thread.

  232. #232 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    Sauceress,

    Why put this in your ignore list?

    A virulence signal capable of binding to a pathogen receptor, in combination with a MAMP, has been proposed as one way to constitute a (pathogen-specific) PAMP.

  233. #233 augustine
    May 27, 2011

    So 450 preventable deaths of children a year—or ~1000 today with the population increase…Die in a fire, augustine.

    You don’t know how many would die today, Firebreather. In the name of fear you certainly can project, though.

    How many die from medicine every single year Mr. Dragon?

  234. #234 Krebiozen
    May 27, 2011

    @Sid Offitt

    Yes, Kerbiozen, I agree, ear infections are deadly…..if you live in a house covered in feces, garbage. In the real would not so much.

    Do you have a citation for increased mortality of ear infections in people who live in “a house covered in feces, garbage”? Incidence of otitis media causing meningitis in the UK is 0.42 per 100,000. It is rare but sometimes ear infections have serious complications that require hospitalization in real people, in the real world.

    “More serious illnesses were treated at home a few decades ago, so it is not possible to meaningfully compare hospitalization rates pre and post vaccination as a means to assess the seriousness of measles.”
    …is based on exactly what, now?

    Are you really suggesting that before 1963 people with relatively serious illnesses that would now be hospitalized were not routinely nursed at home? I thought that was fairly obvious, but take a look at on the drop in the proportion of people who die at home as opposed to dying in hospital (in the UK it has halved in 30 years). Dying is a fairly serious illness for which hospitalization has doubled. Earlier you seemed to be arguing the exact opposite. You wrote:

    Do you really think in the pre-vaccine era 40% of the three to four million children who contracted the measles were hospitalized. And now they’re hospitalizing children for ear infections so I would take those numbers with a grain of salt.

    My point exactly. Back in the good old days what we now consider to be serious illnesses were treated more casually. That’s why I omitted hospitalization from the list of incidence of serious measles complications. Unless you are suggesting the CDC figures are bogus, in which case there’s no point continuing the discussion.

    And no it’s not possible that cases are underreported, it’s a scientifically supported fact that they are – and that more severe cases are more likely to be captured.

    I think you are nit-picking here. Those absolute numbers of people who died, got encephalitis or pneumonia are still correct, right? Those 177 people are still dead from what you call a mild illness. Is it really that important that there may be some hidden cases of measles that are mild and don’t get reported? Halve the incidence of serious complications if you think that half the cases were not reported, quarter it if you insist, but that still leaves a lot of people dead or very sick from a vaccine preventable disease.

  235. #235 CG
    May 27, 2011

    So what’s causing the kidneys to fail (HUS), meningitis, colitis and diarrhea? Can the molecules of nonpathogenic K12 capable of doing that?

    HUS? Shiga toxin, encoded in a lysogenic phage.
    Meningitis? That’s E. coli K1, not EHEC.
    Colitis and diarrhea? AE lesions mediated by T3SS, which is encoded on a pathogenicity island.

    As for the LPS, the same can be done with K12 LPS. LPS is endotoxin. Dumping large amounts of it in any animal will cause issues.

    The part of LPS detected by TLR4 is Lipid A. Some organisms modify their lipid A in order to not trigger the immune system. K12 and O157:H7 do not do this.

    You clearly have no clue how this organism works and are just googling and throwing links out.

  236. #236 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    You’re avoiding the question.

    No I’m not. I’m trying to show you where the “squirrel” is so you can stop barking up the wrong tree.

    However, O157:H7 LPS is identical, yet if he did the same thing with LPS derived from this strain instead, it would be an infection by your definition.

    They are not the same. They are distinguished from one another. The K12 LPS is not diarrheagenic unlike the pathogenic O157:H7 LPS.

    Even though the molecule is identical and it will induce an identical response.

    False. Remember PAMPs. Unlike you, they don’t bark up the wrong tree. “It’s the squirrel!!!”

  237. #237 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    You’re avoiding the question.

    No I’m not. I’m trying to show you where the “squirrel” is so you can stop barking up the wrong tree.

    However, O157:H7 LPS is identical, yet if he did the same thing with LPS derived from this strain instead, it would be an infection by your definition.

    They are not the same. They are distinguished from one another. The K12 LPS is not diarrheagenic unlike the pathogenic O157:H7 LPS.

    Even though the molecule is identical and it will induce an identical response.

    False. Remember PAMPs. Unlike you, they don’t bark up the wrong tree. “It’s the squirrel!!!”

  238. #238 CG
    May 27, 2011

    False. Remember PAMPs. Unlike you, they don’t bark up the wrong tree. “It’s the squirrel!!!”

    Time for a basic microbiology lesson. Gather round kids!

    LPS is found in the outer leaflet of all Gram negative bacteria. It has three parts.
    The outer most part is the somatic or O antigen. This part does vary, it’s where the O in O157 comes from. It is not immunogenic and plays no role in PAMP recognition.
    Next up is the core polysaccharide. It doesn’t vary within a species.
    At the base is lipid A. This is the part that anchors into the membrane. It’s also the part recognized by TLR4. Some species modify this part so TL4 can’t see it as well. Most strains of E. coli, including K12 and O157:H7 do not.

    This means it doesn’t matter which strain LPS is from, TLR4 will recognize it. If I injected K12 LPS into you, you would die still of septic shock.

  239. #239 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    May 27, 2011

    3-4 million measles cases per year in the U.S. pre vaccine 450 deaths per year. ~150 million census.

    99.99% case survival

    99.9997% population survival

    Woe is me. Dem measles is a comin’

    Also take into account that nutrition plays a major factor in measles survival and you’ll see that risk is not homogenous like science based cultist would lead to believe.

    While I disagree with some of Augustine’s conclusions, I think he raises a useful point.
    Based on CDC data, between 1 and 2 children who are sick with measles die, a number of others have various complications which can include seizures, permanent deafness, pneumonia, and so on. Presumably no one disagrees with this.
    The vaccine clearly significantly reduces the risk of catching the disease. While it introduces some known risks, those are demonstrably less than those of catching the actual disease.
    These are reasonable matters of science.
    However, the decision of whether to encourage immunization is not strictly one of science. It really comes down to societal values. Is it worthwhile to society to save, say, the 1-2 children out of a thousand that might have died? Or should the threshold be higher – should we reserve this sort of thing for something that kills, say, 1 child out of 100? Or one out of 10?

  240. #240 Sid Offit
    May 27, 2011

    @Krebiozen

    I’m getting caught in the spam filter anytime I try to use a link so just google

    a house covered in feces, garbage fox ear infection death

    if you’re interested

    Yes, sometimes illnesses cause death; that’s why they’re called illnesses. And since the measles doesn’t even cause death on it’s own, rarely causes death and hardly ever causes death in the previously healthy, I feel I’m on firm ground classifying the measles as a mild illness.

  241. #241 Sid Offit
    May 27, 2011

    @Mephistopheles O’Brien

    How do you get 1 or 2 deaths per thousand from these numbers:

    3-4 million measles cases per year in the U.S. pre vaccine 450 deaths per year

  242. #242 Sauceress
    May 27, 2011

    Oh dear CG!
    It looks like you’ve caused the troll bot to blow a spam cork.

  243. #243 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    If I injected K12 LPS into you, you would die still of septic shock.

    Did your friend die? Are you sure it’s septic shock not medical murder?

  244. #244 CG
    May 27, 2011

    Did your friend die?

    No, he stabbed himself with the needle. If he actually pushed down the plunger and injected himself he would probably have died. Just the small amount that diffused out the needle was enough to cause severe local inflammation.

    LPS strongly activates the innate immune system. Harmless commensal or pathogen it really doesn’t matter, both will activate TLR4.

  245. #245 Krebiozen
    May 27, 2011

    @Sid Offitt
    So one child who died of an ear infection was neglected and lived in squalor. This proves what exactly?

    I happen to think that reducing suffering and death is a good thing. You apparently either don’t, or think that “only” a few hundred people a year dying or being permanently disabled, by a vaccine-preventable disease would be acceptable in the USA in the 21st century. That is where things are heading, judging by trends in Europe. That disgusts me.

    By the way, you wrote, “measles doesn’t even cause death on it’s own, rarely causes death and hardly ever causes death in the previously healthy”. That’s not true. The measles virus directly causes pneumonia, encephalitis and death. A study of measles deaths between 1964 and 1971 found that “nearly 17% of the persons who died had some underlying disease at the time of death”. That means that more than 80% of those who died of measles did not have an underlying disease.

  246. #246 Todd W.
    May 27, 2011

    @Kreboizen

    Also, measles is, as far as I could find, the only cause of SSPE, which almost always causes…wait for it…death.

  247. #247 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    No, he stabbed himself with the needle. If he actually pushed down the plunger and injected himself he would probably have died. Just the small amount that diffused out the needle was enough to cause severe local inflammation.
    LPS strongly activates the innate immune system. Harmless commensal or pathogen it really doesn’t matter, both will activate TLR4.

    But you’re not concerned of the so many naive children receiving LPS-containing vaccines?

  248. #248 Th1Th2
    May 27, 2011

    CG,

    HUS? Shiga toxin, encoded in a lysogenic phage.
    Meningitis? That’s E. coli K1, not EHEC.
    Colitis and diarrhea? AE lesions mediated by T3SS, which is encoded on a pathogenicity island.

    I thought my question was clear. Again, can the nonpathogenic K12 able to cause the above conditions?

  249. #249 Sid Offit
    May 27, 2011

    @Kerboizen

    http://www.immunize.org/reports/report085.pdf

    Measles, itself, does not kill children. Instead, complications from measles attack the childís already weak immune system.

    =============================================

    You apparently either don’t, or think that “only” a few hundred people a year dying or being permanently disabled, by a vaccine-preventable disease would be acceptable in the USA in the 21st century.

    It’s not for me to decide what’s acceptable for the entire country. I’m responsible to decide whether the risk of a certain illness warrants the vaccination of my child.

  250. #250 Matthew Cline
    May 27, 2011

    (I know I shouldn’t feed the troll, but…)

    @Th1Th2:

    In your opinion, what percentage of smallpox deaths were iatrogenic?

    When the Black Plague killed off 1/4 of Europe, what percentage of the deaths were iatrogenic?

  251. #251 herr doktor bimler
    May 27, 2011

    Measles, itself, does not kill children. Instead, complications from measles attack the child’s already weak immune system.

    The same reasoning reassures us that HIV is no cause for concern.

  252. #252 lilady
    May 28, 2011

    Sid Offal has provided a link to a four year old article at Immunize.org which details the Measles Initiative work being done in third world developing countries. The subject here is the major outbreaks in the United States and Europe as a result of scare tactics generated by the anti-vax cranks.

    The four year old articles details the morbidity and mortality rate for children in these third world countries. Yes Offal, kids do die of measles complications in Africa and Asia. That’s what happens we they are living in cramped housing, they aren’t properly nourished and they acquire the disease as infants when there immune system is immature. They don’t have access to good medical care or hospitals and they haven’t been immunized against measles.

    So, tell us Sid, where did you get your medical degree and where do you practice medicine because you have unequivocally stated “I feel I’m on firm ground classify the measles as a mild illness”.

    Sid, in your “professional” opinion were the 60 % (14/23 cases of measles) in Minneapolis whose physicians hospitalized them for treatment, unnecessary hospitalizations? Were the 40 % (47/118 measles cases) reported YTD in the United States who required hospitalization, also unnecessary hospitalizations?

    Offal, I saw the Comment you posted under the picture of the little girl infected with smallpox on “SBM-Smallpox and pseudomedicine”, “Wow she’s pretty”. You really are the nastiest of trolls.

  253. #253 Matthew Cline
    May 28, 2011

    @herr doktor bimler:

    The same reasoning reassures us that HIV is no cause for concern.

    Well, according to Th1Th2, avoiding infection is almost effortless, so I guess all those people who’ve died from AIDS were just to stupid to realize that they should have walked on the nice clean concrete sidewalks.

  254. #254 Chris
    May 28, 2011

    lilady:

    So, tell us Sid, where did you get your medical degree and where do you practice medicine because you have unequivocally stated “I feel I’m on firm ground classify the measles as a mild illness”.

    He is a real estate investor who thinks he is smarter than those who have science and/or medical degrees. He also seems to enjoy pretending to be a respected author, which he is not. I now know he does have a child, one that he probably had very little part in taking care of when she was small (why he does not understand why saying there was no food on his kitchen floor was silly for a parent of small children). Personally I would not trust him on any medical or family matter. It is better to just ignore him.

  255. #255 CG
    May 28, 2011

    I thought my question was clear. Again, can the nonpathogenic K12 able to cause the above conditions?

    You are deliberately not clear. K12 cannot do those things due to it lacking the genes I mentioned. It’s LPS has nothing to do with it. Once again you are changing the subject.

    But you’re not concerned of the so many naive children receiving LPS-containing vaccines?

    Because they aren’t. There is no LPS containing vaccine. The only whole cell vaccines or live bacteria vaccines are Gram positive.

    However, the use of LPS-like molecules as an adjuvant are being investigated.

  256. #256 lilady
    May 28, 2011

    @ Chris: And, I wouldn’t trust him on a business investment matter either. That explains why he has so much free time to post here…in between phone calls for extending his credit line.

  257. #257 Doc Rocketscience
    May 28, 2011

    Offal, I saw the Comment you posted under the picture of the little girl infected with smallpox on “SBM-Smallpox and pseudomedicine”, “Wow she’s pretty”. You really are the nastiest of trolls.

    I could hardly believe this was right, but sure enough, there it was.
    Wow, Robert, you really are a useless piece of shit, aren’t you?
    It should be noted that the SBM commenters simply ignored him. We should all emulate their restraint.

  258. #258 Th1Th2
    May 28, 2011

    Matthew Cline,

    Well, according to Th1Th2, avoiding infection is almost effortless, so I guess all those people who’ve died from AIDS were just to stupid to realize that they should have walked on the nice clean concrete sidewalks.

    You mean they are not smart. Like vaccine fanatics who plan their visit to the doctor just to get infected. No wonder they could not find the sidewalk because they chose to remain in dirt.

  259. #259 Th1Th2
    May 28, 2011

    CG,

    You are deliberately not clear. K12 cannot do those things due to it lacking the genes I mentioned. It’s LPS has nothing to do with it. Once again you are changing the subject.

    Well, you’re the one who came up with the K12 case scenario. If I had not asked you about the “squirrel”, you could still be barking up the wrong tree.

    Because they aren’t. There is no LPS containing vaccine. The only whole cell vaccines or live bacteria vaccines are Gram positive.

    That is certainly not true particularly for the infamous acellular Pertussis vaccine.

    Pertussis Vaccination: Use of Acellular Pertussis Vaccines Among Infants and Young Children Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)

    Acellular pertussis vaccines contain inactivated pertussis toxin (PT) and may contain one or more other bacterial components (e.g., filamentous hemagglutinin {FHA}, a 69-kilodalton outer-membrane protein — pertactin {Pn}, and fimbriae {Fim} types 2 and 3). PT is detoxified either by treatment with a chemical (e.g., hydrogen peroxide, formalin and/or glutaraldehyde) or by using molecular genetic techniques. Acellular pertussis vaccines contain substantially less endotoxin than whole-cell pertussis vaccines.

    An overview of the status of acellular pertussis vaccines in practice.

    Acellular pertussis vaccines have decreased endotoxin content and are less reactogenic than whole cell vaccines.

    Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed
    Tripedia

    The inactivated acellular pertussis component
    contributes not more than 50 endotoxin units to the endotoxin content of 1 mL of DTaP.

  260. #260 lilady
    May 28, 2011

    @ Doc Rocketscience: Yes it is true and unfortunately only one of Offal’s manifestions of his sick mind. He derives pleasure from posting here (works out his demons), is totally clueless about immunology and totally devoid of any human decency.

    He talks about infants and children in third world countries who live lives of deprivation and disease as is they are sub-human. Minority and immigrant groups within this country are scorned by him… not worthy of our care and concern because they are not part of his privileged lily white world. In his sick perverted mind innocent babies and children who are not part of his narrow “group” should die to rid society of needy people.

    Truly an odious uneducated troll totally bereft of decency and without a shred of humanity.

  261. #261 TBruce
    May 28, 2011

    Interesting how the true character of these antivax trolls gets revealed as they comment. John Lennon had something to say about this.

  262. #262 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    May 28, 2011

    @sid,
    Per http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/overview.html

    About one out of 10 children with measles also gets an ear infection, and up to one out of 20 gets pneumonia. About one out of 1,000 gets encephalitis, and one or two out of 1,000 die.

  263. #263 Denice Walter
    May 28, 2011

    @ lilady: Here’s my take on RS- my research informs me that real estate has not been doing exceedingly well these days ( new understatement of the week) so the poor fellow has to figure out *something* to do with his time and needs to lash out at *somebody*: why not us? We make ourselves clear and represent a thought-out, reality-based opinion- I’m sure that makes us worthy of both scorn and contempt! We’re in good company!

    Dunning and Kruger use the label “inexpert and unaware of it” for some folks: we should remember that one of the higher level abilities that develop around the time of adolescence ( a/k/a executive fxs, formal operational thought, etc.), along with sarcasm, is the ability to self-evaluate your own capacities and skills. Many people never fully get there. Our woo-meisters often present themselves as “experts” ( altho’ much of this is for PR) and challenge more educated “elitists” way above their own level -heh heh heh-( I guess that this can “rub off” on their followers): it resembles a phenomenon often seen on tennis courts, players self-rate themselves *way* above their own real capabilities and then get absolutely *slaughtered* by a person who really *is* the level they call themselves.

    However, RS does present us with a mighty “blast from the past” with his attitudes about race: who would have thunk it – colonialism lives on! OK , I know that these days, you don’t actually have to go through the trouble of acquiring and managing colonies, it can be done purely economically, or as RS so kindly illustrates for us, by attitude alone! (Disclaimer: though lily-white, I totally abhor this attitude- it sucks!). My work here is done.

  264. #264 LW
    May 28, 2011

    It’s one thing to be stupid or ignorant or both — but RI’s trolls are often strikingly loathsome as well. I suppose one has to be pretty loathsome to persist the way they do. Sid Offal is just one example.

  265. #265 Orac
    May 28, 2011

    Unfortunately, that’s the nature of anti-vaccine trolls. They tend to be far more nasty and loathsome than most other varieties of trolls, and as long as I write about vaccines and the anti-vaccine loons that hate them I am likely to continue to have to put up with anti-vaccine trolls.

  266. #266 LW
    May 28, 2011

    I had never encountered anti-vaxxers before reading RI, so I had no idea what they were like. I thought they were just innocent hippie types (I have some innocent hippie-type friends), and that one could have a cheerful dispute with them. Not so. I am impressed that you endure them so patiently.

  267. #267 Sid Offit
    May 28, 2011

    Denise, that’s the best one EVER. Sid Offit: Colonialist. What a great illustration of the delusional mindset necessary to believe the vaccine myths that permeate these threads.

  268. #268 Denice Walter
    May 28, 2011

    @ Sid: it’s called “hyperbole in the service of jest”

  269. #269 Sid Offit
    May 28, 2011

    Sorry, but I reject Atwood’s argumentum ad misericordiam. He was using a disturbing picture as a ham-handed attempt to distract for an argument built on falsehood.

    You appear to believe that if you can find a picture of a terrible condition others should accept it as evidence of the correctness of your argument. I don’t.

    By the time the vaccine made an impact in America, the dominant form of smallpox – variola minor – was often confused with chickenpox and had a mortality rate of ~1%, yet Atwood tells us his picture is what a case of smallpox would do to us. That’s absurd and deserves to be ridiculed.

  270. #270 Doc Rocketscience
    May 28, 2011

    Robert, if that’s the argument you want to make, you could have made that argument. But, you didn’t. Instead, you threw out a bit of bile and feces that, if taken seriously, indicates that you consider that child’s condition to be a positive outcome. You chose to present yourself as a heartless fuckwad. And here I thought you were all about the children. Seriously, Robert, you’re a useless excuse for a human being, a troll who’s sexual pleasure seems to be derived from the promotion of disease and death. Kindly DIAF.

    Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to test out this new killfile script.

  271. #271 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 28, 2011

    Anybody notice that according to Sid, a death rate of 1% is perfectly OK? We know that for little augie, the 1 in a thousand death rate from measles was hunky-dory, now 1 in 100 from smallpox is just fine. Do we have any other trolls who would endorse a death rate of 1 in 10 rather than have anybody’s Precious Bodily Fluids™ contaminated? Come on—step up to the plate! Show us what sort of sociopaths we’re dealing with.

  272. #272 LW
    May 28, 2011

    “the dominant form of smallpox – variola minor – was often confused with chickenpox”

    (Citation needed)

  273. #273 lilady
    May 28, 2011

    The little girl that Offal commented on, was photographed in Bangladesh in 1973; she had pustules all over her body from Smallpox infection.

    If you have ever seen smallpox case pustules or full blow chickenpox, you know the difference. I was trained in complete emergency preparedness during the WMD scare…”weaponized smallpox major”, including lab specimen preparation.. prior to being revaccinated against smallpox as a first responder. Once that vaccination “took” I vaccinated small numbers of Emergency Room personnel in every area hospital in my county.

    Information about Smallpox Major and other varieties of smallpox can be found at the CDC website “Emergency Preparedness-Smallpox.

  274. #274 Sid Offit
    May 28, 2011

    @LW

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200695/
    The ordinary-type variola as well as variola minor can be confused with chickenpox as stated above

  275. #275 Sid Offit
    May 28, 2011

    indicates that you consider that child’s condition to be a positive outcome.

    I just love visiting the dreamworld ya’ll live in

  276. #276 LW
    May 28, 2011

    Hmm. From Offal’s reference, “A disease that can still be confused with smallpox is varicella (chickenpox). ” Remarkably, this matches what Offal said. But wait, look later in that paragraph: “The clinical course and the characteristic appearance of the skin lesions aid in the ability to distinguish one from another.”  And the next paragraph: “When smallpox was endemic, the diagnosis was easily made based on the appearance and distribution of the rash.”

     In other words, doctors who saw the two diseases in actual practice could easily tell the difference. Doctors (and laymen) who hadn’t seen a case might confuse one for the other. But the mere fact that the two diseases initially looked the same doesn’t mean they were the same. Variola minor was a lot less lethal than variola major, but it was a lot more lethal than chickenpox.  The reason it was important to distinguish them was because a case of chickenpox could give rise to an outbreak of chickenpox, which was tolerable, but a case of smallpox mistaken for chickenpox might give rise to an outbreak of smallpox, which could be devastating. 

    Case in point: the 1947 outbreak in New York City. The initial patient was misdiagnosed with chickenpox and thus was not rigorously quarantined. He therefore infected two people in the hospital, who went on to infect nine more. Of the twelve people in the outbreak, three died (the original patient and Mr. and Mrs. Acosta). Note to Offal: that’s a mortality of 25%. Frantic efforts by the authorities to vaccine everyone in the City stopped the disease in its tracks. 

    Look down in the report. You will see a list of outbreaks in the United States in the 20th Century, well after the introduction of vaccination. Not one of them had a mortality less than 10%, and the mortalities ranged up to 30%. Smallpox was not a mild disease comparable to chickenpox, despite Offal’s fantasies.

    There are lots of diseases that may be mistaken for other diseases, particularly in atypical presentations. That does not mean they are the same disease or equally benign.    

  277. #277 lilady
    May 28, 2011

    You can twist all you want to mitigate the damages to your reputation. IMO you are evil personified…not for the differences we have about vaccines…but for your cold, compassionless statements and your poor taste in humor. Truly a vile human being.

  278. #278 LW
    May 28, 2011

    “You can twist all you want to mitigate the damages to your reputation.”

    Offal’s reputation is well-established here. I doubt there is anything which could damage it further, nor anything Offal would do to mitigate the damage.

  279. #279 dedicated lurker
    May 28, 2011

    Siddy, if you’re not willing to take a chance with vaccinating your kid, you must not let them ride in any cars, right? Every time you’re in a car there’s a substantial risk of crashing. Certainly more than the chances of a severe reaction to a vaccine.

  280. #280 lilady
    May 28, 2011

    This old broad was vaccinated for the first time in 1947 during the smallpox outbreak in NYC. I grew up in Brooklyn and hadn’t entered kindergarten yet (two older siblings were vaccinated prior to school entry). New York City was the epicenter of the smallpox outbreak and I was vaccinated along with a slew of my playmates at the local firehouse.

    In 1971 prior to traveling to Europe I was re-vaccinated at the Manhattan Health Department for entry into Germany and re-entry into the U.S. Later that same year my 1 year old daughter received her vaccine; in 1972 smallpox vaccine was discontinued from the list of Recommended Childhood Vaccines. Then there was my third smallpox vaccine as I was a designated first responder. I was “vaccine-injured” due to small losses of pigmentation over my left deltoid muscle….but never filled out a VAERS Report.

  281. #281 Sid Offit
    May 28, 2011

    LW, you’re only focusing on outbreaks of “virulent” smallpox. That version of the disease was rare in relation to v. minor. And v. minor had a 1% fatality rate. That rate would have likely declined as living conditions continued to improve. After all measles deaths went from 7,000 in the 20s to 400 in the 60s. And all your research on the confusion between smallpox and chickenpox doesn’t change the fact that what I said was quite true: smallpox and chickenpox were often confused

  282. #282 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 28, 2011

    I was “vaccine-injured” due to small losses of pigmentation over my left deltoid muscle….but never filled out a VAERS Report.

    Gee, by the 50s, when I got my smallpox vaccination, they were giving it to the boys on the outside of the arm, so we could look like Manly Men™ and giving to the girls on the inside of the arm, where it wouldn’t show. You should have sued them for making it visible the first time.

  283. #283 Julian Frost
    May 28, 2011

    Sid Troll:

    v. minor had a 1% fatality rate

    So out of a population of 1 million, you could expect 10 000 deaths. I’d say getting rid of it was still worthwhile.

  284. #284 Sid Offit
    May 28, 2011

    @lilady
    Oh no. We’re both from Brooklyn. I’m from Bensonhurst.

    @D-Lurker
    Risk -reward. Vaccines = risk and little reward. Cars = risk but lots of reward

  285. #285 Sid Offit
    May 28, 2011

    I’d say giving people a choice to protect themselves with a vaccine is worthwhile; forcing that choice upon them isn’t.

  286. #286 dedicated lurker
    May 28, 2011

    What’s the reward of cars? Pollution? And how much risk is worth how much reward?

  287. #287 Th1Th2
    May 28, 2011

    Vaccines vs Car? That’s a classic Gray-style analogy.

    Easily debunked.

    Passenger cars are designed to transport people safely. End of the story.

    Vaccines are created to infect. It is inherent, deliberate and expected.

  288. #288 Lawrence
    May 28, 2011

    How about a one week moratorium on responding to idiot trolls? Since we already know exactly what they are going to say (broken record doesn’t even begin to describe it) – why bother to spend any time responding to their moronic misunderstanding of basic realities?

    Seriously – they can argue semantics or unreality all they want, won’t change the actual facts.

  289. #289 LW
    May 28, 2011

    The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge, maybe the vaccine was administered differently in different places? Everybody in my family, boy or girl, got vaccinated on the outside of the arm.

  290. #290 lilady
    May 29, 2011

    All my family members received their vaccines high up on the deltoid muscle, except my 15 month older sister, who for some reason received hers in the upper thigh. I recall that my parents and older relatives who also had the vaccines in early childhood…many years ago, had rather large (2-3 cm.) shallow craters on the arms. I suspect that the potency of the vaccine variolation was stronger, than that of Dryvax vaccine that was used during the 1947 NYC outbreak, and the only vaccine being used in the United States until mid 2008.

  291. #291 LW
    May 29, 2011

    All right, Lawrence, just for you….

    But the history of smallpox in the United States is quite interesting, and I quite enjoyed investigating Offal’s falsehoods.

  292. #292 DrDuran
    May 29, 2011

    lilady @280

    I’ve heard and read that smallpox vax was stopped in 1972 many times, I was born in 1973 and have a mark on my arm from the vax. It look just the same as the one my older sister has. Just seems weird to me.

  293. #293 Denice Walter
    May 29, 2011

    AoA is trumpetting two events at *Autism One* that I believe may exemplify the state of the movement presently:

    1. The Canary Party(see website): Led by a Reiki Master, a group of concerned citizens, alarmed by the startling rise of “neurological and autoimmune illnesses” in both children and adults, believe that many have been “harmed and killed by the medical industry”. Intent on flexxing their political muscle, it seems as though they’ve taken a page from the NaturalNews/ Gary Null playbook. It should be interesting when several of these advocacy groups converge on legislators simultaneously. And bring lawyers.

    2. Keynoter Jenny McCarthy premiers her new line of “affordable, non-toxic baby products”.

    Both efforts “spread” beyond the narrow confines of A-V. This leads me to believe that the “times, they are a-changing” in a fashion that can be best expressed metaphorically by a little scene I dreamt up:

    A blonde woman is spraying a home scent product around her apartment- a really expensive one, either by Jo Malone or Ralph Lauren- she keeps sniffing, and unsatisfied, sprays even more. There is however, a dead body in the next room: it’s been there for a while and guests are due to arrive in an hour. Oh, well.

  294. #294 Chris
    May 29, 2011

    Dr. Duran:

    I’ve heard and read that smallpox vax was stopped in 1972 many times,

    Only in the USA. I got my last smallpox vaccine in 1974 at an Army medical clinic in what was then the Panama Canal Zone. You may have had some very diligent parents.

  295. #295 Johnny
    May 29, 2011

    I’ve heard and read that smallpox vax was stopped in 1972 many times…

    Only in the USA. I got my last smallpox vaccine in 1974 at an Army medical clinic in what was then the Panama Canal Zone.

    Not for the military (and families) who were overseas. I Joined the AF in 76, and was revaccinated as part of normal in-processing (nine shots in six weeks).

  296. #296 LW
    May 29, 2011

    Even after routine vaccination stopped in the U.S., they still vaccinated people who travelled outside the country. I was vaccinated for that reason. Maybe DrDuran was taken outside the U.S. when very small. Also, they stopped routine vaccination but that doesn’t mean the vaccine was not available, and some diligent parents might have gotten their children vaccinated anyway, as Chris suggested. I know my grandmother never believed that smallpox was eradicated, and she expected another outbreak because people had stopped vaccinating.

  297. #297 lilady
    May 29, 2011

    @ DrDuran: The 1972 cutoff date for smallpox vaccine being given in the United States, is for “Routine Vaccination” (school entry included). As other posters have stated above, travel outside of the USA, required smallpox vaccine for a few years after the “routine” smallpox vaccination was discontinued in 1972. Others have stated that they received the vaccine when they served in the armed forces and Chris received it while residing in the Panama Canal Zone.

    A few days ago on one of the Science Based Medicine blogs, a mother posted that she adopted an infant from a foreign country about 8-10 years ago. She sees a telltale small mark on the child’s upper arm that appears to indicate that the child received smallpox vaccine sometime after 2000.

    One absolutely brilliant poster recalls working in foreign countries and seeing those same telltale marks…from receiving the BCG vaccine. Countries where tuberculosis is very prevalent still give BCG vaccine in early infancy and it leaves the same/similar mark on the arm as smallpox vaccine does. Could this be the case with you?

    Usually I would refer you to the CDC Pink Book-Smallpox, but I have trouble loading the chapter…probably because the book is in revision, right now. These are the times when I miss my job in public health, where I had hard copies of the Pink Book and the AAP Red Book on my desk for ready reference.

    I have located the last VIS (Vaccine Information Sheet) for Smallpox vaccine published 11-15-03. Just type in:

    VIS-Smallpox

    Removal of the vaccine requirement for “Routine” immunizations is contained in section #1 “What is Smallpox”

  298. #298 DrDuran
    May 30, 2011

    Well, I never even left California before I was a teenager, so out of US travel wouldn’t be the reason, my mom doesn’t remember me getting that vax particularly, and I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t be asking for non-routine vax’s, so I still don’t know why I got it…LoL

  299. #299 LW
    May 30, 2011

    Possibly your pediatrician was still recommending the smallpox vaccination a couple of years after it was judged no longer routinely required?  If pediatricians can fiercely argue against recommended vaccines (Dr. Gordon), perhaps they can also recommend an extra vaccine. Though the smallpox vaccine was nasty enough that I would have thought doctors would stop giving it the moment they heard it was safe to do so, still that’s the only explanation I can come up with. 

  300. #300 Chris
    May 30, 2011

    Dr. Duran, how do you know you received it? Perhaps you were living a bit closer to a military base than you realized.

    Though I suspect that it was so close to its removal from the routine schedule that some pediatricians were still giving them. I don’t think the updating information was as readily available as it is now.

  301. #301 Yojimbo
    May 31, 2011

    Not that anyone need care about the intent of lurkers such as myself, but I intend from now on to boycott threads in which the Three Muskatrolls are fed. There is no viable conversation to be had with them, no possibility of finding common ground, and the battlefield has been tramped over so many times it looks like a parking lot. There doesn’t even seem to be anything left of value to the casual passerby. All you’re doing is making them fat.

    You must do as you please, but I find having to don hip waders to get through the BS has gotten old. You have worn out this set of trolls – it is time to cultivate new ones.

  302. #302 Lawrence
    May 31, 2011

    Agreed – moratorium re-instated.

  303. #303 Griffo
    June 6, 2011

    People just have to realize that parents are desperate for answers. If someone offers them hope, they’ll believe almost anything that gives them that hope to protect their kids, regardless of the evidence for or against.

  304. #304 Micheat
    June 8, 2011

    Griffo, palliative treatment for autism: An answer is Cannabinoids and Yoga.
    We are waiting for results of studies to come out re: Cannabinoids. + ASD.
    As for the synergy between Yoga and Cannabis, you’ll have to take our word for it, for now. What harm can yoga do?
    Herbs & woo-based exercise appeal to those who don’t like the look of the date on narcoleptics and TD etc ;)

  305. #305 Kenneth
    July 1, 2011

    Hi there. I don’t suppose you saw our exhibit at the recent Autism One conference did you? We have a one of a kind all natural therapy, based on real science, by a real scientist. Perhaps you could share your thought on our approach?

    http://www.n-met.com for more information. and please do share your thoughts.

  306. #306 Militant Agnostic
    July 1, 2011

    @305

    Perhaps you could share your thought on our approach?

    Let’s see –

    Testimonials – Check

    No studies with an n > 1 – Check

    Some vague comments about metabolism – Check

    Impressive sciency scientist with lots of credentials who apparently can’t be bothered to run a proper placebo controlled double blind test before marketing his stuff – Check

    Had a booth at Autism One Quack Fest – Check

    Quack Miranda Warning – Check

    My “Shopping Cart” will remain empty, but I believe I have Quack Bingo.

    You picked the wrong blog to spam.

  307. #307 a-non
    July 2, 2011

    @306:

    All you had to do was say “Had a booth at Autism One”, and that would’ve said it all.

  308. #308 Militant Agnostic
    July 2, 2011

    @307 – I thought I would allow them the unlikely excuse of naivete on that one.

  309. #309 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    July 2, 2011

    “304

    Griffo, palliative treatment for autism: An answer is Cannabinoids and Yoga.
    We are waiting for results of studies to come out re: Cannabinoids. + ASD.
    As for the synergy between Yoga and Cannabis, you’ll have to take our word for it, for now. What harm can yoga do?
    Herbs & woo-based exercise appeal to those who don’t like the look of the date on narcoleptics and TD etc ;)

    Posted by: Micheat | June 8, 2011 5:22 AM”

    QFT.

    This is probably that ‘bis-addled fuckpig. Wanna get rid?

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