Respectful Insolence

The cost of the anti-vaccine movement

Here’s an excellent video from Down Under on the human costs of the anti-vaccine movement:

It features Viera Scheibner, who has nothing good to say about vaccines and thinks that vaccines are dangerous and infectious diseases in childhood are good.

Simply incredible.

Comments

  1. #1 Tom Sidwell
    June 13, 2011

    Turns out the president of the Australian Vaccination Network is disappointed with Vera’s performance too, and admits she was too cowardly to defend her position on national television. Also is claiming the show was a Microsoft/GSK conspiracy.

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150216630543467&set=o.143367983587&type=1&ref=nf

    These people are just nutty.

    Also, parsnip box FTW.

  2. #2 ausduck
    June 13, 2011

    Yes, nothing says professional research and research library like a well placed parsnip box :)

    The ‘anti-vaccination’ lobby are eating their own at present here in Aus after the broadcast linked above. The ubiquitous Meryl Dorey did not appear, but that is probably because of legal matters she is involved in at present with NSW Govt Authorities. Hasn’t stopped her crying ‘pharma-media conspiracy’ on her groups though. And wahhhing about the supposed lack of balance in the 60 Mins Report.

  3. #3 Th1Th2
    June 13, 2011

    The title is erroneous. It should be “The Cost of Having 20 Doctors.” True enough, too many cooks spoil the broth.

  4. #4 lilady
    June 13, 2011

    I had already heard about this “doctor” at the Millenium Project-Ratbags, but with this video (Thanks, Orac), Scheibner reaches an all-time personal low. She has been known for her truly outrageous remarks blaming parents whose children died of SID Syndrome for responsibility due to their immunizing their child and for her support of those implicated in Shaken Baby Syndrome…vaccine injuries, according to her.

    Such a vile ignorant woman…but I enjoyed her smack down of her toady on camera.

    Thanks for the link Tom Sidwell and great to read the Aussies’ comments.

  5. #5 Venna
    June 13, 2011

    There are sometimes when I feel that freedom of speech should be repealed, particularly when innocent newborns die because of it. I’ve never loved the sound of a baby crying, but if I had lost one so close to it’s birth, I think I would feel the same way, I’d do anything just to hear him or her cry again. Thinking of that made me cry and made me thankful that I didn’t suffer these parent’s losses and my heart goes out to them. I feel like I should beg their forgiveness, but I don’t live in Australia and my children are fully vaccinated. Ms. Vera needs to quit with the rectal cranial inversion and look at what’s actually going on. Who was it anyway who died and made her queen of the vaccine?

  6. #6 Chris
    June 13, 2011

    Viera Scheibner is a farce.

  7. #7 novalox
    June 13, 2011

    Wow, watching the video, Vera sure does come off as a total ignorant clown.

    I couldn’t believe some of the comments that she stated, and listening to them, I wondered how such vileness could exist in a person.

  8. #8 Autism & Oughtisms
    June 13, 2011

    Huge range of emotions watching that. Mostly heart-breaking sadness and very real anger, at the life-threatening arrogance and ignorance of the anti-vaccine movement. And I make no apologies for calling it the anti-vaccine movement either; call it what it is. Though I’m willing to also call it plenty of other nasty things too.

  9. #9 Autism & Oughtisms
    June 13, 2011

    Huge range of emotions watching that. Mostly heart-breaking sadness and very real anger, at the life-threatening arrogance and ignorance of the anti-vaccine movement. And I make no apologies for calling it the anti-vaccine movement either; call it what it is. Though I’m willing to also call it plenty of other nasty things too.

  10. #10 Autism & Oughtisms
    June 13, 2011

    Huge range of emotions watching that. Mostly heart-breaking sadness and very real anger, at the life-threatening arrogance and ignorance of the anti-vaccine movement. And I make no apologies for calling it the anti-vaccine movement either; call it what it is. Though I’m willing to also call it plenty of other nasty things too.

  11. #11 Autism & Oughtisms
    June 13, 2011

    Huge range of emotions watching that. Mostly heart-breaking sadness and very real anger, at the life-threatening arrogance and ignorance of the anti-vaccine movement. And I make no apologies for calling it the anti-vaccine movement either; call it what it is. Though I’m willing to also call it plenty of other nasty things too.

  12. #12 Beatis
    June 13, 2011

    She is indeed vile beyond words, a total creep if ever there was one.

  13. #13 Nicole
    June 13, 2011

    My brother was born with pneumonia. It is heartbreaking and terrifying to watch this little person struggling to breathe- hooked up to all kinds of machines and too fragile to even pick up. A little baby who they think might not live for even a day due to some infection.

    How dare that woman have the right to blame a parent for their child dying what has to be the most terrifying death imaginable. How dare the above poster blame it on too many doctors, using some heartless analogy that s/he thinks makes her look clever. My brothers infection may not have been preventable, but this child’s death was, using what has to be one of those most life saving discoveries of modern medicine.

  14. #14 Adam
    June 13, 2011

    Well, Scheibner is clearly batshit crazy, dangerous, and really should never be allowed to practice medicine. But at least on one point she deserves some credit: at least she admits that she is completely anti-vaccination.

    One of the things that really annoys me about the anti-vax movement is that so many of them are dishonest about it. How many anti-vaxers give us all the bullshit about “I’m not anti-vaccine, I’m pro-safe vaccine”?

    At least with Scheibner, her honesty about it makes it a bit easier for everyone to see how crazy and dangerous she is.

  15. #15 Sharon
    June 13, 2011

    Those of us in Australia who actively campaign against people like Scheibner and Dorey were glad to finally see mainstream media pick this up. Watching was toe curling and distressing, yet, I thought, showed just how maniacal and cult-like some anti vaxers can be. Completely dogmatic, no sense of reason and resorts to victim blaming when backed into the inevitable corner. Pathetic.
    My heart simply broke for those parents of lost babies.

  16. #16 Giliell
    June 13, 2011

    I really hate few people in this world. I’m annoyed at many, angry with others, but only few qualify for hot, real, personal hate. Scheibner is one of them.
    The lady who did the report and interview was brilliant I think. She calmly exposed their lack of qualification, their lies, their nonsense.

  17. #17 meg
    June 13, 2011

    @Venna
    Technically, we in Australia do not have guaranteed freedom of speech. We have no ‘Bill of Rights’. Freedom of political speech during an election campaign is covered in the constitution, but I think that’s about it.
    That being said, our court does uphold the right to free speech.

    But yes, listening to a baby crying because they can’t breather freely it just gut-wrenching.

  18. #18 Poodle Stomper
    June 13, 2011

    Viera Scheibner is possibly one of the worst people alive. I am sickened that she is blaming the parents for the death of their child. I can’t believe that people like her can’t be held responsible for the consequences of the crap she spreads.

  19. #19 Kristen
    June 13, 2011

    My heart breaks for these parents. My first son’s death as a newborn could not have been prevented and it was the most horribly painful experience of my life. I can’t imagine living with the knowledge of his death being completely preventable if only other people weren’t so ignorant and/or uninformed. The parents who appeared are very courageous to put themselves out there like that.

    Viera Scheibner is a piece of work. I love how she totally insulted her assistant and treated her like a child. ‘When feeling threatened throw your friends under the bus’ seems to be her attitude. At the end when she walked out her assistant looked horrified with what she was saying. She keeps great company. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall in that room when the cameras left and the proverbial s*** hit the fan.

    I am speechless with her lack of compassion for the babies and parents. Vile woman.

  20. #20 0db
    June 13, 2011

    Reposted on Facebook, for what little (probably read: nothing) that will do. And this was me trying to restrain myself:

    “For those who think stupid parents should be free to do whatever they want to their kids. ‘Alternative medicine’ and such are not ethically legitimate choices. These parents and quacks are liable for murder, right?”

    I could rant all day, but suffice it to say: absolutely disgusting.

    Homo sapiens never ceases to dismay me.

  21. #21 Lawrence
    June 13, 2011

    I seem to remember one of our resident trolls commenting about our lack of compassion….Would love to see its response to this.

  22. #22 Raging Bee
    June 13, 2011

    Th1Th2 (and Augie, if he shows up here) are two more data-points that strongly indicate that the entire anti-vax movement has devolved into nothing but the kind of pointless, mindless, relentless ankle-biting meanness that makes the old fart yelling “Get off my lawn!!” look like a pillar of the cummunity. I think we’re at the point now where the anti-vaxers are feeling the heat of better public scrutiny and freaking out. Maybe I’m being pver-optimistic, but I hope that in the longer run this will mark the beginning of the end for this particular wave of orchestrated hysteria.

  23. #23 adelady
    June 13, 2011

    Usually we laugh at the Dunning Krugerites, but this is beyond laughter, or tears for that matter.

    That woman is evil. And her witless offsider should be quarantined – in a proper library – for six months. Maybe isolation, and insulation, from that awful person might give her the chance to develop some real knowledge and worthwhile skills.

  24. #24 Denice Walter
    June 13, 2011

    Scheibner an “expert” whose degrees ( micro-paleo/ geo) and one year of med school are staggeringly inappropriate. I am very familiar with her, having seen her name and articles plastered about alt med and anti-vax sites. Again, alt med refers to “experts” who would be laughable in most other venues. She was born in 1935- therefore, she should know better. So should many other proselytisers.

    About the cohort effect: I imagine a line somewhere dividing population susceptibilty to anti-vax rhetoric – people in their 50’s can definitely remember childhood diseases prior to vaccine coverage and are less likely to buy anti-vax , while those in their 40’s ( and below) recall less illness: a case in point, my cousin ( b. 1964) suffered a bout of vaccine doubt c. 2001 ( don’t worry, he’s all recovered). Those over 50 probably have even suffered one of the vaccine preventable illnesses themselves, like me.

    While it’s not cut and dry, the age factor should definitely be kept in mind when we attempt to communicate with anti-vaxxers.

  25. #25 JayK
    June 13, 2011

    My brother-in-law has twin boys, 11 years old, that have never been vaccinated. They’re in Melbourne. One of the twins has Aspergers, high functioning but very incapable of dealing with people outside of those familiar with his issues. The other boy shows no signs of being anywhere near an autism diagnosis, completely healthy, active and intelligent.

    Their own story contradicts everything they’ve bought into about vaccines, yet they still won’t vaccinate.

    We may think that we have it bad here in America, with a sub-300 measles outbreak and small bubbles of whooping cough spread out over the land mass, but the herd-immunity in Australia is completely broken. Much of their population is found in small amount of space. They need to muzzle Veira and the other pseudoscientists spread out to spread misinformation in an effort that can only result in more dead children.

  26. #26 Agashem
    June 13, 2011

    I thought Veira and her crowd said that getting disease made a baby stronger? How then is giving a vaccine worse? Shouldn’t that make the child stronger and thus prevent Whooping cough? (I had to twist my brain to figure that one out, like an anti-vaxxer, i.e. hep B vaccine should prevent catching diseases like whooping cough).

  27. #27 Krebiozen
    June 13, 2011

    My son had whooping cough when he was less than a year old, and nearly died. He survived thanks to good medical care. It was horrible to witness a baby struggling to breathe. He was unvaccinated because he had other medical problems that contraindicated immunization. This was in the UK in the 1980s when immunization rates had fallen due to a loss of confidence in the vaccine.

    Th1Th2 – I hadn’t realized until today that you are not just deranged, but dangerously so. I think your statement suggesting that Kailis Smith died as a result of his treatment, and not from pertussis is both disgusting and libelous. How dare you make such a foul accusation against doctors who did their best to save a baby’s life? You have no evidence at all to support such an accusation. I have seen too many doctors grieving after losing young patients to quietly ignore such a nasty jibe.

  28. #28 Omri
    June 13, 2011

    “The parents who appeared are very courageous to put themselves out there like that.”

    Especially when you know other parents in that situation who have spoken out have been harassed in their homes.

  29. #29 lilady
    June 13, 2011

    Actually, it has gotten truly out of hand with the vile one’s vicious condemnation of a young couple who lost their child…caused by immunization according to the warped downright evil Scheibner. She was relentless in her condemnation of the couple…and others of her ilk barraged the couple with death threat mailings and telephone calls.

    The (only) good thing about these outrageous acts is the fact that enough good people in Australia formed the “Stop Veira Scheibner” organization which now works in concert with other groups to “push back” against Scheibner and other anti-vax loons.

  30. #30 Kenn
    June 13, 2011

    This is simply appalling. How can a person, faced with mountains of evidence to the contrary, continue to believe something so deluded?

  31. #31 MikeMa
    June 13, 2011

    @Kenn:

    How can a person, faced with mountains of evidence to the contrary, continue to believe something so deluded?

    Mental illness? Sociopath?

  32. #32 DaveD
    June 13, 2011

    My brother-in-law has twin boys, 11 years old, that have never been vaccinated. They’re in Melbourne. One of the twins has Aspergers, high functioning but very incapable of dealing with people outside of those familiar with his issues. The other boy shows no signs of being anywhere near an autism diagnosis, completely healthy, active and intelligent.

    Their own story contradicts everything they’ve bought into about vaccines, yet they still won’t vaccinate.

    What’s particularly nutty about such cases is that children do not suddenly become autistic at age 11, vaccinated or not. Autism comes on much, much earlier than that.

  33. #33 roman.elazar
    June 13, 2011

    Vera Scheibner made me want to vomit.

  34. #34 JayK
    June 13, 2011

    @DaveD: The one twin was diagnosed at the standard age, around 3 or 4. The point is that the diagnosis of autism in an unvaccinated twin should have been enough evidence that vaccination isn’t a problem (yes, anecdotal) and that she should get them caught up on their shots, but it had the opposite effect, she went more naturopathic and wooish. There is no evidence that will dissuade people like that.

  35. #35 Andrew S.
    June 13, 2011

    The interviewer looked like she had a hard time stopping herself from just standing up, calling Vera Scheibner a moron, punching her in the face and walking off.

    What a vile human being Ms. Scheibner is.

  36. #36 Beamup
    June 13, 2011

    Is our local incoherent stoner spamming again? Almost as a sock puppet this time?

  37. #37 Gray Falcon
    June 13, 2011

    Kenn@27: Because if she did accept reality, it would mean accepting that everything she said and did for the last several years was for nothing.

  38. #38 Raging Bee
    June 13, 2011

    What sort of idiot goes to the trouble of replacing Cs with Ks in “cannabanoid” — in a bibliography? Even with today’s search-and-replace functions, that’s a totally pointless thing to do, even by blithering-concern-troll standards.

    I guess all the smart trolls have admitted defeat and run off…

  39. #39 MikeMa
    June 13, 2011

    I love the magic of moderation. One minute there is a long post filled with pointless crap, the next its gone!

    It does make some of the comments that were after it a little weird, but this is the internets after all.

  40. #40 Th1Th2
    June 13, 2011

    Krebiozen,

    You have no evidence at all to support such an accusation.

    They have no evidence it was pertussis nor the cause of death is attributable to pertussis. That is a classic iatrogenic death. That is clearly the works of a madman magnified 20x. What a shame.

  41. #41 Lawrence
    June 13, 2011

    Ignore stupid troll – he/she/it doesn’t live on the same plane of existance or reality as the rest of us.

  42. #42 Nicole
    June 13, 2011

    @jayk- random curiosity, are they “identical” twins?I read a study a while ago that in 90% of identical twins if one twin was diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder the other twin also eventually is diagnosed. It’s often cited to support that autism is a genetic disorder. If they are identical, it would suggest they are rather uncommon!

  43. #43 Th1Th2
    June 13, 2011

    Who the hell is using my ID? Get lost creep.

  44. #44 Dan Weber
    June 13, 2011

    It’s been a while since I’ve seen something new here (not criticizing Orac, it’s hard to make new stuff when the crazy just recycles itself), but holy cow that’s a brand new level of nuts.

    This video is probably the best thing to show to people who are going to have kids soon. Because they’ll realize these folks are completely gone.

  45. #45 lilady
    June 13, 2011

    @ Thingy: Just clarify for us. Which of your postings ( #3, #37 or #40), are really from you?

  46. #46 Th1Th2
    June 13, 2011

    #3, 37, and 41 are all mine.

  47. #47 Giliell
    June 13, 2011

    They have no evidence it was pertussis nor the cause of death is attributable to pertussis.

    Ah, so you have:
    -the adequate qualification to make that claim
    -have looked at the case data, the tests, the results
    -have clear evidence for medical malpractice which you can show all of us.
    So, please, defend your claim, back it up.

    Something has come to our attention? If I am so wrong about stuff, why doesn’t Orac ever delete my comments like he deletes Jacob’s comments?

    Because you’re wrong on topic.
    Did you ever wonder that if there was even a grain of truth/sense in what you’re saying, deleting your comments that could teach all of us about the evil vaccine-conspiracy would probably be the first thing Orac, as a member of the eeeeebil vaccine conspiracy would do?

  48. #48 dt
    June 13, 2011

    Regarding the Channel 9 video, it just bears repeating for the record that Wakefield was NOT struck off the medical register for “falsifying his research” as was claimed.

    It was for professional misconduct.

    (However he did falsify his research, and is a fraud, but that wasn’t what the GMC case was actually about)

  49. #49 JayK
    June 13, 2011

    @Nicole: Yep, identical. I’ve spent a bit of time with them, they’re very opposite. The twin with Aspergers is classic, almost every single trait. The other is quiet, thoughtful and articulate and shows zero signs of autism. It really is fascinating, but with a woo mom as family I can’t just ask to do a case study on their children. Because of my skepticism I pretty much have to avoid the topic completely.

  50. #50 Prometheus
    June 13, 2011

    “They have no evidence it was pertussis nor the cause of death is attributable to pertussis. That is a classic iatrogenic death. That is clearly the works of a madman magnified 20x.”

    I suppose that since nobody “infected” the child with pertussis vaccine, “Th1Th2″ cannot see any way he could have gotten it, ergo it was an “iatrogenic” death.

    Of course, if someone rejects germ theory and claims that injection with killed bacteria (or, in the case of the DTaP, two denatured toxoids and specific bacterial proteins) is an “infection”, there is little that can be done to introduce reality into the discussion.

    Once you’ve decided that reality can be whatever you choose, there’s no limit to the nonsense you can believe.

    As I’ve said before, “Th1Th2″ is mentally ill and needs psychiatric help. These comments (#3 and #37) prove it.

    We are each entitled to our own opinions, but we can’t have our own reality.

    Prometheus

  51. #51 ArtK
    June 13, 2011

    Oh goody. Orac’s now hosting his own version of To Tell The Truth. “Will the real Thingy please stand up.”

    Jacob, what a worthless piece of drug-addled garbage you are. I’m sure this is what passes for cleverness with your remaining brain cells, but really. The one-note “pot, pot, pot” samba has gotten massively tiresome.

  52. #52 RTContracting
    June 13, 2011

    The 60 minutes piece was critical of Viera Scheibner’s qualifications (and many of Orac’s commentators are critical of this as well).

    I totally disagree. I think that a background in micropaleontology is the ideal training for an anti-vaccine activist. After all, during her career as a micropaleontologist, Scheibner would have looked at thousands of tiny dead things. If a few babies die of vaccine preventable disease, well, that’s just a few more tiny dead things.

    No big deal for a micropaleontologist.

  53. #53 JayK
    June 13, 2011

    Hmm, I must have fallen and hit my head when I posted #49, because no one would ever steal another’s ‘nym and babble insanities around here.

  54. #54 lilady
    June 13, 2011

    “#3, #37 and #41 are all mine”

    @ Thingy # 3…have you no shred of decency or empathy for parents whose infant died from pertussis? You have absolutely no knowledge…aside from the notorious Scheibner’s rantings…that this is not so. Or, is your dementia and anti-vax fixations of such a degree that you have chosen to abandon any sense of humanity and make sick jokes about the infant’s tragic death from pertussis?

    @ Thingy # 37…and you have are totally clueless about basic medicine, biology, chemistry, the epidemiology of vaccine-preventable diseases and iatrogenic deaths. Just an evil, venom-spilling troll who should take her/his/its postings to sites where her/his/its brain droppings will be appreciated.

    # Thingy #41…We have no way of knowing which postings are yours…none of them make sense anyway but are notable for your descent into viciousness, crassness and lunacy.

  55. #55 Th1Th2
    June 13, 2011

    Prometheus,

    I suppose that since nobody “infected” the child with pertussis vaccine, “Th1Th2″ cannot see any way he could have gotten it, ergo it was an “iatrogenic” death.

    The child had a cold and was treated as such. That is NOT even an acceptable medical diagnosis and the treatment is a shot in the dark. Of course you cannot “infect” a 5-week old with pertussis vaccine yet per schedule. So that will leave you with natural infection. So have they identified the source of B. pertussis? The only people who have had exposure to B. pertussis toxins are also the same people surrounding him at close contact. Twenty incompetent doctors intervening on a disease they don’t know is a recipe for disaster. That is clearly an act of barbarism.

    Of course, if someone rejects germ theory and claims that injection with killed bacteria (or, in the case of the DTaP, two denatured toxoids and specific bacterial proteins) is an “infection”, there is little that can be done to introduce reality into the discussion.

    You don’t have any evidence to suggest that the child had previous exposure to pertussis since they don’t check for it before vaccination (Ab titer). Therefore, during primary inoculation, you’re introducing something to the child that are foreign, nonself and pathogen-associated. And that is infection.

    Yes, you are correct in both ways. This is a case of iatrogenic death and that you are indeed a germ denialist.

  56. #56 lilady
    June 13, 2011

    @ Thingy: you really are a dumb ass troll. Even the dumbest ass parent of an infant knows that Ab titers are never done before infant immunization. There is a way to check for presence of the disease however, but then again an uneducated dumb ass troll wouldn’t know that.

    We are all wondering where you were educated…beyond 8th grade…and how your “unique education” qualifies you as an expert…in any field?

  57. #57 Mu
    June 13, 2011

    Since thingy shows all the emotional development and empathy expected from a 16 year old your guess of 8th grade education might not be far off.

  58. #58 Krebiozen
    June 13, 2011

    Th1Th2 makes it sound like Kailis Smith was killed by a chaotic frenzy of doctors. If you have ever seen an emergency room team in action, as I have on several occasions, 20 health care professionals (probably not all doctors) around a very unwell patient is not unusual. It is an impressive sight, so many people, each with their own area of expertise and responsibility working as an effective team.

    In many cases they are able to save the patient, as they did in this case. Kailis was on life support for another 3 weeks before he died. This was not in any way an iatrogenic death, though it is a shame his pertussis was not diagnosed at his first hospital visit. Without medical assistance he would have been dead before he reached the hospital the second time, as he arrested twice and had to be resuscitated on the way there.

    It is ridiculous to suggest this was a misdiagnosis, and Kailis did not have pertussis. Diagnostic tests are very reliable, and PCR results would have been available within a couple of days, with confirmation by culture within weeks.

  59. #59 Th1Th2
    June 13, 2011

    lilady,

    Even the dumbest ass parent of an infant knows that Ab titers are never done before infant immunization.

    Is there a reason as to why medical doctors don’t? I know. Because it is presumed that the earliest primary infection and exposure to pathogens happen during vaccination and not due to natural infection. Otherwise, Ab screening test would be a prerequisite to avoid further vaccination adn I mean re-infection. In short, these crooks are the first infection-promoters so Ab titer is not needed.

    There is a way to check for presence of the disease however, but then again an uneducated dumb ass troll wouldn’t know that.

    How exactly? Let me guess. One way is through specific Ab titer.

  60. #60 Jen
    June 13, 2011

    This 60 minutes piece was not a slam dunk for the pro-vaccine side. Dr. Offit ( or even the doctor who was recently on some interview regarding the parents who were publicly stating they had received monies for vaccine damage re. Autism ) has come off just as “bungled” as Vera Scheibner.
    I think the parent (Meredith) who mentioned vaccine reactions actually made a valid point to the interviewer, not that she was unbiased enough to want to hear much about it. The program was very lop-sided and did not even describe children who had died or had bad reactions. Just a token appearance.
    Clearly, the takeaway message is that we should all keep indefinitely getting vaccinated against this disease every year possibly and or in utero. Nothing else will keep some doctors/pharma happy.
    Oh, and I liked the lie the doc told about how they only vaccinate against life-threatening diseases. (chicken pox, rota virus-even if it’s oral).
    Once again, I hate to remind you all that we will all die someday, vaccines or not. Oh yeah, and the studies that “exonerate mercury” (which is still in quite a few vaccines) are crap. I’m not going to continue to debate, that’s just my opinion on the show.

  61. #61 Stuartg
    June 13, 2011

    Thingy

    Take a blood test from a neonate and it constitutes significant blood loss.

    Assuming that you’re an adult, the equivalent loss for you would be a couple of hundred mLs.

    Simple logic…

  62. #62 Gray Falcon
    June 13, 2011

    Actually, Jen, people have died of chickenpox. And by the way, do you eat? I mean, there’s always a chance of choking to death! Sure, there’s the risks of not eating, but surely inaction carries less risk than action, right?

  63. #63 Th1Th2
    June 13, 2011

    Krebiozen,

    each with their own area of expertise

    For a new recipe they have created which is called “Multi-Organ Failure”.

    In many cases they are able to save the patient, as they did in this case.

    You must be kidding me. The child was better off with that teeny weeny cough than those horrendous invasive contraptions they have put in his body. What I saw was the real face of iatrogenesis. The monster hidden in every doctors white coat.

    It is ridiculous to suggest this was a misdiagnosis, and Kailis did not have pertussis. Diagnostic tests are very reliable, and PCR results would have been available within a couple of days, with confirmation by culture within weeks.

    But they were cooking the wrong recipe; they must have put a lot of vinegar in the broth which makes it “acidotic”. Well, true enough, it happened.

  64. #64 lilady
    June 13, 2011

    Thingy: Ever heard of a naso-pharyngeal swab, or PCR testing to determine/confirm bordetella type to differentiate between bordetella pertusis and bordetella parapertussis…both of which cause pertussis disease and both of which can be treated by antibiotics. Titer testing is done lastly and not necessary when you are dealing with an infant critically ill with pertussis.

    Why do you view this particular blog so callously and as an opportunity to advance yet another of your pseudoscience theories? Who or what in your pathetic life warped your thinking processes?

    Why don’t you answer the questions I posed to you about your education and your qualifications to qualify for any job? Or are you also on the dole? We are waiting.

    Jen…we will be holding you to your promise to not debate.

  65. #65 Krebiozen
    June 13, 2011

    Th1Th2 the child had to be resuscitated twice on the way to the hospital. That’s not a “teeny weeny cough”. I wish you could get some experience on a trauma unit or an intensive treatment unit. Then you might have the faintest clue what you are talking about. Actually, forget that, the death toll would be horrendous. “I’ll just pull out all those those horrendous invasive contraptions they have put in his body.”

    But they were cooking the wrong recipe; they must have put a lot of vinegar in the broth which makes it “acidotic”. Well, true enough, it happened.

    Would you like some word vinaigrette on that?

  66. #66 Th1Th2
    June 13, 2011

    Stuartg,

    Take a blood test from a neonate and it constitutes significant blood loss.

    No it doesn’t. A significant blood loss is an event that requires transfusion. A routine newborn screening is significant but the blood loss is not.

  67. #67 lilady
    June 13, 2011

    Thingy: Shows us your reference that warrants a blood test for titers and for cripes sake show us any references for your pseudoscience bacteriology testing. Still waiting about your “expert” opinion regarding naso-pharyngeal swabs and PCR testing of the swab to confirm pertussis.

    We are still waiting for your education credentials and your qualifications to qualify you for ANY job.

    I submit you have never been in a pediatric ICU in any professional capacity and your medical knowledge is nil. Just a nasty vicious troll devoid of any human compassion who pulls factoids that he/she/it misinterprets out of his/her/its posterior.

  68. #68 herr doktor bimler
    June 13, 2011

    If nothing else, this thread has established that stealing other people’s nyms does not make trolls any smarter or any less rcognisable.

  69. #69 Andrew
    June 13, 2011

    >The child was better off with that teeny weeny cough than
    >those horrendous invasive contraptions they have put in his
    >body.

    Breathing is overrated, eh. Another brilliant bit of science from the disease-monger camp.

  70. #70 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    June 13, 2011

    What on earth (or whichever planet!) is going on here? Are you all mad?

    Well, one of us is mad. One of us was probably crazy to begin with and is now so drug-addled that he has no brain cells left. To add to the comedy, he’s morphing all over the place and using other people’s nyms, including the mad one. Just another day on Scienceblogs.

  71. #71 Tigger_the_Wing
    June 13, 2011

    That evil, EVIL creature (Viera Scheibner) in that video had me practically exploding with anger.

    She claims twenty- @#$%*ing-six years of @#$%*ing “research” during which she evidently never bothered to educate herself about even the basics of how vaccines even work!

    Like the earlier poster, I could have lost my only daughter to whooping cough in 1986 due to a previous vaccine scare that meant that all my begging was in vain; the doctors simply refused to vaccinate her. I never, ever want to see – indeed want anyone ever to see – a child suffer the way she did. It is terrifying, gut-wrenching stuff. She survived; she was older (2) than the infants in the video, which may have helped. Meantime, I was spending all my time desperately trying to keep her temperature down and her airways clear whilst nursing Number 1 Son (who, like me, only has partial immunity) and struggling with the disease (for the third time) myself. The hospital couldn’t take her; they were already full to capacity with younger infants.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    And then:

    Why in all the hells of history is the de-bunked autism myth even relevent? Even if it were true (which it emphatically isn’t) why would being permanently disabled or killed by a disease be in anyway preferable to being autistic?

  72. #72 nory
    June 14, 2011

    I’d like to translate this video and upload it back to my Youtube chanel with the added subtitle. Would that be legal? Anyone can advise me? Thanks.

  73. #73 Giliell
    June 14, 2011

    20 comments later and Thingy still is making it look like they took a babe with a mild cold to the ER and killed him there with intensive care.
    Not a shred of evidence, sure, but that has never stopped her before.

    So let’s move to another gem:
    I’m aware that you refuse to actually back up your nonsense, so I’m writing for the benefit of any fence-sitter who might think you have a point.

    I think the parent (Meredith) who mentioned vaccine reactions actually made a valid point to the interviewer, not that she was unbiased enough to want to hear much about it.

    Yeah, she just threw out questions, not giving any answers, hinting at conspiracy theories.
    Here are some of my favourite challenges:
    If the research is all blotched, can you answer those twi questions for me:
    If all research on vaccines and vaccination is done by and controlled by big pharma, can you please explain why the former socialist countries were so fond of vaccination they even made it obligatory?
    If it was a big conspiracy hoax by big pharma, why should they have dug into it instead of showing off their superior system and care for human lives standing boldly against capitalists?
    If it was about the money, why did the GDR implement the polio vaccine over a year before western Germany did? If they’re useless, it only COST them money.
    If the diseases are no big deal, why are immigrants from poor countries usually so keen on getting the vaccination?

    The program was very lop-sided and did not even describe children who had died or had bad reactions. Just a token appearance

    It’s because the program was not about that. Plain and simple. If you are in a country where you have serious outbreaks of whomping cough with vaccination rates falling to about 60% and lots of children dying, it’s not the focus.
    Would you consider a program lop-sided about the importance of seat-belts which does not prominently feature the very small number of people who actually die because of wearing a seat-belt?

    Clearly, the takeaway message is that we should all keep indefinitely getting vaccinated against this disease every year possibly and or in utero. Nothing else will keep some doctors/pharma happy.

    So stupid it hurts.
    It’s totally not about keeping the doctors happy. My doctor gets about 15-20 € for a vaccination. That includes the whole service from the assistant who spends 5 minutes on the phone to make an appointment with me, the assistant at the desk who checks our personal data/information when we come there, the general health check-up done by the doc herself to make sure the child is not ill and there is nothing that would make vaccination an unwise move just now to finally giving her the jab.
    That’s clearly something they really make money on *rolleyes*
    And unless you’re one of the people who believe that vaccination is actually intended to keep people dependent for the rest of their lives, they’re also bad business for the pharmaceutical companies because you only sell them a few times. Price for the MMRV vaccine per dosis: 50 €
    Amount required about 3-4 dosis over your whole life.
    Now compare that with the prize of medicaion needed in case of an infection.

    Once again, I hate to remind you all that we will all die someday, vaccines or not.

    Yes, but there’s no reason to die horribly at age 5 weeks from whomping cough. Or do you think the 80 years the kid might have had else wwouldn’t make a significant difference?

  74. #74 Venna
    June 14, 2011

    I’ve often wondered, how many of these anti-vaccine activists are actually fully immunized themselves? If they are, then their stand point is completely selfish because if an epidemic hit their area, they are protected. But their children they seek to ‘protect from vaccines’ will not be protected. What happens they they survive but their child/children dies? Will that convince them that maybe vaccines aren’t so bad after all? A day late and a dollar short but maybe they’ll stop with the anti-vax screamfest and join reason and logic. One can always hope and be optimistic. Not about children dying, that isn’t ever good and if it happens, it’s the parents [those anti-vax activists] who would, and do, hold that responsibility for those children’s deaths.

    For the record, I believe thingy has delved into a new plain of crazy dumb. Anyone continuing to argue with it is only fueling the fire. It obviously exists only because of the attention it gets here.

  75. #75 Venna
    June 14, 2011

    To remind thingy of it’s previous stance on another post, it had stated that maternal antibodies in newborns keep a child protected with a passive immunity to disease. How does that play out in this scenario? Maternal antibodies (if the child was breastfed which they didn’t say) would provide passive immunity to the common cold virus so a 5 week old shouldn’t have caught a cold. But in this case that is what it was thought to be at first. It turns out it was not just a cold but pertussis and maternal antibodies obviously don’t protect the child from that, passively or otherwise. Or does your argument apply only to measles?

  76. #76 reasonablehank
    June 14, 2011

    For the cretin who calls Kailis’ death “iatrogenic”. I happen to know that that poor little baby boy was on an ECMO for 3 weeks, you cruel, callous bastard. Roslynd and Jay cried by his side that whole time. Still they weep.

    I am happy that 60 Minutes finally got the message to the wider audience, which would not generally see how cruel and callous anti-vaccinationists can be, so that more undecided members of the community will now seek accurate and reputable information on vaccination.

    I am sad that the program needed to be made in the first place.

    The reporter, Ellen Fanning, did an excellent job given the intricacies of the lies of the anti-vaccine movement. She had to be across her subject in a limited amount of time, and she nailed them to the wall.

    I would also like to praise the work of another Australian journalist, Tracey Spicer, who decided months ago to do something about the Australian anti-vaccinationists. Her lead up work in raising this issue to prominence cannot be understated. Tracey’s shredding of Meryl Dorey can be found here, although I know Orac has previously noted this interview:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OjoL7Wt5Lc&feature=channel_video_title

    Steve Cannane is another Australian journalist who has contributed to highlighting the dangers of the anti-vaccine movement:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csSGut7y5ik&feature=channel_video_title

    Most of all, praise must go to Toni and Dave McCaffery, and Roslynd and Jay Smith, for having the courage to share their grief knowing that they will likely be vilified by supporters of the AVN, as the McCafferys have been for two years and counting. These families shared their stories so that others will not suffer.

    And, thank you Orac for giving our Australian battle a wider audience.

  77. #77 Giliell
    June 14, 2011

    Venna:

    What happens they they survive but their child/children dies? Will that convince them that maybe vaccines aren’t so bad after all? A day late and a dollar short but maybe they’ll stop with the anti-vax screamfest and join reason and logic.

    Well, I’ve seen it happen in a “milder” case. My brother in law (who’s not only a biologist but even a virologist) wasn’t really anti-vax or bought into any of that shit, but held the common view that most “childhood-diseases” (damn that word. In German it’s the equivalent for “usual starting problems that can easily be overcome”) aren’t that bad and although you can vaccinate against them it really isn’t necessary.
    Until he caught rubella a few weeks ago. Western Germany in the 1980’s wasn’t very keen on vaccination. You only got DPT and the girls got rubella, but not the boys.
    Well, now he’s highly in favour of vaccination against all those diseases including rubella and chicken pox.

  78. #78 MacTurk
    June 14, 2011

    Quote Ms Bronwen Hancock(Viera Scheibner’s disciple) “The body only catches a disease if it needs to..”. And “Going through a disease is like getting exercise..”. This is, quite simply, utterly insane. “No, no, no! You’re NOT screaming in agony and dying from bubonic plague, you’re just doing extreme sports”.

    Quote Ms Viera Scheibner(no 1). “Yes, I believe I know more than most doctors”. This, after stating that her sole medical “qualification” is a short course in nursing?

    Quote Ms Viera Scheibner(no 2). “Vaccination of any kind causes autism”. Utterly false.

    Quote Ms Viera Scheibner(no 3). “Only children who are vaccinated get autism”. Utterly false

    If these ravings were in any way true, we would be up to our ears with autistic children. Surprisingly, this is NOT the case. Every vaccinated child is NOT autistic.

    The autism rate, across time and states, is hard to assess. First, because autism is a complex condition/collection of behaviours which has a spectrum, not a single disease. There are also issues such as the increasing awareness of the condition(you do not check for something if you do not know it exists), changes in diagnostic practice, etc.

    However, there is one thing we can be sure of, which is that the rate is NOT 100% of children who received a vaccination.

    The woman is a plausible liar, a monomaniac and a charlatan. She is also dangerous, beause she generates followers who will refuse to get their children immunised. This will lead to problems with weakening of the herd effect, at minimum.

    And a lot of children will die painfully, or suffer unnecessarily, or will be physically/mentally handicapped for life. But that’s ok, as long as they can stick it to the evil “Big Pharma”.

  79. #79 DLC
    June 14, 2011

    Unbelievable.
    I wanted to jump through the screen and slap that malignant old crone until her head spun around.
    I wouldn’t trust her or her toadie to diagnose a hangnail, or to treat a sore toe.

  80. #80 reasonablehank
    June 14, 2011

    Antivax mother, Meredith Collins, may not have stated in the 60 Minutes program that she believes there is a conspiracy; but, she stated it on May 15 in the Sunday Telegraph:

    “I won’t risk my boys, says mum

    PADSTOW mum Meredith Collins chose not to vaccinate her three sons for fear of harming them.

    “I was ostracised by the schools, preschools and several Medicare payments were withheld because I have chosen not to vaccinate,” she said.

    “There’s some really nasty stuff in vaccines and I had these pure little bodies and I didn’t think it was necessary they should have horrible things like formaldehyde in them.”

    She said sons Connor, 12, James, 10, and William, 8, rarely got sick and the vaccination push was due to a conspiracy between pharmaceutical companies and government.

    “Doctors don’t disclose that they get paid a kickback for giving the shots; if that’s not a conspiracy, I don’t know what is,” she said of the General Practice Incentive Payment of $18.50 for each vaccination in a child who completes an immunisation schedule.

    Ms Collins denied her actions were selfish and put other children at risk.

    “It’s my choice and I’m not willing to risk my children and I’m not scared of the diseases because hygiene practices are better now,” she said.”

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/diseases-return-as-jab-rates-drop-off/story-fn6e0s1g-1226060234809

    She is as dishonest as the rest of them.

    I should have also mentioned this journalist when praising the others, above. Jane Hansen deserves just as much credit for her work highlighting the dangers of the anti-vaccine cult in Australia.

  81. #81 Krebiozen
    June 14, 2011

    I wonder how Ms Collins intends to remove the formaldehyde from her children’s “pure little bodies”. Chelation probably…

    A little perspective – I’m repeating myself, but it’s worth it I think – normal blood formaldehyde levels are 3 milligrams per liter. Maximum formaldehyde in any vaccine 0.1 milligrams.

    Incidentally, a pin head weighs about 2.5 milligrams, or 2,500 micrograms. The amount of mercury (as thimerosal) in a single flu vaccine weighs 25 micrograms, or 100th the weight of a pin head.

  82. #82 Kristen
    June 14, 2011

    Just wanted to point out “Clive”, Jacob’s comments are being deleted because Orac is sick of the off-topic ramblings. The nym “Jacob” can still be used, unless I’m missing something. And the nym “Clive Markham” will have posts deleted if they are off-topic as well.

    I would also like to give you a heads-up: Orac despises sockpuppeting with others’ handles.

  83. #83 Krebiozen
    June 14, 2011

    Pardon my ignorance, apart from solvents and alcohol, which drugs kill braincells? Citations needed, of course.

    “Methamphetamine?

  84. #84 Lawrence
    June 14, 2011

    Clive – I’m going to give one shot here, what’s your point again? And I mean point posting here in general.

  85. #85 lilady
    June 14, 2011

    Sorry Guys, if I got a bit resolute, but this video got to me and the unwarranted callous comments by some of the trolls, I believe, justified my remarks.

    If you have ever experienced the death of a child or comforted a parent who has lost a child from a vaccine-preventable disease, you tend to become upset. Troll remarks here remind us of the discussions that took place last year when there were 9,120 cases of pertussis in California that resulted in the deaths of 10 infants.

    Pertussis infection for infants who are unimmunized or not fully immunized is a killer disease and when anti-vax groups in Australia use their deaths to advance their cause, to blatantly state that deaths weren’t caused by pertussis infection and to further distress mourning parents by blaming them for their loss, is an abomination.

    @ Clive Markham: Treatment, not cure for this bacterial disease is Azithromycin, Erythromycin or Tremethoprim-Sulfamethoxazole. You might also want to check:

    CDC Pink Book Pertussis

    Note the toxins produced by the bordetella pertussis bacterium and the effect of the bacterium and its toxins on infant bronchial tree and lungs.

  86. #86 Chris
    June 14, 2011

    Clive Markham, if you are serious and not another troll, I suggest you read with comprehension the chapter recommended by lilady: CDC Pink Book on Pertussis.

    One obstacle to treating pertussis is that it creates toxins. The antibiotics can do nothing for the already recreated pertussis toxins in the child.

  87. #87 lilady
    June 14, 2011

    @ Clive Markham: You say you are concerned about whooping cough for the “baby we are planning”…we have provided that information.

    The subject of this particular blog is anti-vaccination movements and the tragic death of an infant in Australia, not cannabis and not cannabis treatment for MRSA.

    I suggest that you stay on topic…otherwise our esteemed host Orac may conclude that you are just another cannabis-fixated, morphing troll.

  88. #88 Chris
    June 14, 2011

    The cite is “The Lancet, Volume 159, Issue 4113, Page 1859, 28 June 1902″

    You should really stick with references less than three decades old.

  89. #89 JohnV
    June 14, 2011

    yeah this guy is TOTALLY different from jacob.

  90. #90 lilady
    June 14, 2011

    Jacob/Clive Markham: Chris and I are dumb troll hunters…very successful at that activity.

    Still fixated on cannabis, eh?

  91. #91 Calli Arcale
    June 14, 2011

    Back to the topic….

    I watched the video yesterday and am still in shock at the sheer, unmitigated gall displayed by Ms Scheibner. The way she blasts her colleague, who just goes quiet and accepts it, is really telling. She surrounds herself not merely with yes-people but with people who are easily bullied, I think. Her exit at the end is an attempt to bully the reporter and regain some control over a situation which is clearly not going her way.

    It infuriates me that someone like her is given credence by so many about something so important. Vaccination has saved so many lives; there is no reason for these babies to die.

  92. #92 Todd W.
    June 14, 2011

    @Calli Arcale

    The really sad part is that they actually do convince parents that vaccines are the most evil, vile creations ever. I saw some comments about the GAVI conference yesterday, where people were up in arms that GAVI raised so much money for vaccines for poorer countries. They were convinced that GAVI would be going around giving kids autism and killing them.

    So glad that the Australian media gets it. Now if only the U.S. media would finish getting a clue.

  93. #93 lilady
    June 14, 2011

    @ Calli Arcale: There is no reason for any of these infants to die…but for the outrageous fraud and scare tactics of the anti-vax crowd…that beautiful baby would still be alive.

    There must be a collective mental derangement disorder amongst the anti-vax crowd who are not just happy with the destruction of public health systems, but delight in it. I suppose for them, senseless infant deaths are collateral damage during their quest to advance pseudoscience. So sad.

  94. #94 Denice Walter
    June 14, 2011

    @ Calli : “someone like her is given creedence by so many about something so important”

    I would hate to make you upset, young lady, but looking beyond the anti-vax contingent- awful as it is- there are HIV/AIDS denialists, cancer scammers, nutritionists,”quackademics”, health freedom advocates – and I haven’t even touched upon those who butcher the social sciences- psych and econ- to advance their business plans.

  95. #95 Chris
    June 14, 2011

    Jacob/Clive:

    Has whooping cough changed in the last 100 years?

    Actually, yes. The genome has morphed a bit. But the most important thing is that medical care has changed considerably over the past thirty years. There is now at least a second generation vaccine, plus lots of advances in respiratory support for infants, along with more supportive real medications.

    Having had a child who has required hospitalization for croup and needed some of those supports (thankfully not as severe as required for pertussis), I would appreciate it if you would stop being so flippant and annoying.

    I have a comment in moderation about the use of herbal and old timey remedies on children. I suggest you either stay on topic, or just leave.

  96. #96 Todd W.
    June 14, 2011

    @Chris

    Don’t forget that diagnostic methods have also changed considerably since the cited 1902 study. We now have PCR and culture tests that were not available then, meaning that misdiagnoses are probably less likely today than in 1902. Back then, pertussis was very prevalent, and thus in many physicians’ minds as a likely diagnosis, but the illnesses may have been severe cases of croup or some other respiratory disease.

  97. #97 triskelethecat
    June 14, 2011

    @Clive/Jacob: I sincerely doubt you are ahead of Orac. He tends to moderate with a very light hand and rarely bans anyone. Sciblogs will hold comments with too many links, as Chris knows, and he is waiting for Orac to release it.

    As far as the rest of us, we just think you are ridiculous.

  98. #98 Gray Falcon
    June 14, 2011

    @4: I just realized something. If Ms. Scheibner believes both SIDS and Shaken Baby Syndrome are caused by vaccines, why is she condemning parents of the first and being supportive of parents with the second?

  99. #99 Composer99
    June 14, 2011

    Sockpuppet appearance @ 1:54 pm?

  100. #100 triskelethecat
    June 14, 2011

    Ahhhh…given the disappearance of comments, I assume Orac saw the sockpuppeting.

  101. #101 Kristen
    June 14, 2011

    My goodness we have a persistant pot-head troll. I told him earlier Orac was deleting the comments for off topic content, not his name.

    You would think of all topics, this thread; about a vile woman blaming parents for their babies’ deaths; would be left alone by the trolls. It truly shows a lack of humanity on their part that they are willing to make asinine comments here, rather than hang it up for a day or comment on another article.

  102. #102 Todd W.
    June 14, 2011

    Actually, Orac’s deleting of the comments is due to the troll’s sockpuppetry, as Orac warned the individual about in one of the other threads.

  103. #103 Calli Arcale
    June 14, 2011

    Denise:

    I would hate to make you upset, young lady, but looking beyond the anti-vax contingent- awful as it is- there are HIV/AIDS denialists, cancer scammers, nutritionists,”quackademics”, health freedom advocates – and I haven’t even touched upon those who butcher the social sciences- psych and econ- to advance their business plans.

    I’m aware that the panoply of madness goes far beyond antivax, but the reason I’m not upset about the others at the moment is because I haven’t just watched an interview with them. I get angry with them, and with the way they delude their followers, in due course.

    The anti-vax mindset is not in any way unique. People who espouse it do not delight in infant deaths, per se. They may take a certain schadenfreude in calling a particular death iatrogenic, or in a vaccinated child developing autism, but I beyond that, I don’t honestly believe most of them delight in any child’s death. (Some of them, perhaps, but not a majority.) Instead, they deceive themselves to the reality of how many children would indeed suffer — are already suffering — from these vaccine-preventable diseases. It’s not that they delight in painful, agonizing death for dozens of babies in an outbreak; it’s that they’re refusing to accept that it happens. You can see similar justifications among the AIDS denialists, Breatharians (a particularly repugnant group, since the prophets of Breatharianism pretty much have to be lying), the followers of Hulda Clark, etc.

  104. #104 Beamup
    June 14, 2011

    Let’s also observe that there are few forms of foolishness which would kill quite as many people if they got their way. Millions of completely avoidable deaths every year would be a LOW estimate for what would happen if the antivax brigade were to succeed.

  105. #105 Lawrence
    June 14, 2011

    You know, Orac doesn’t have many rules & it very tolerant – much more so than any of the “anti-blogs” out there.

    When he says, no sock-puppets, it isn’t asking a whole lot to both stay on topic & don’t try to get around moderation by creating a bunch of aliases. Seriously…..

  106. #106 Beamup
    June 14, 2011

    The spammer doesn’t comprehend that there’s a difference between one off-topic comment and spamming. He’s probably too stoned to tell.

  107. #107 Lawrence
    June 14, 2011

    Wow – ignores the whole “sock-puppet” thing…..

  108. #108 Composer99
    June 14, 2011

    Having finally watched the whole video through, may I say that the epithet ‘wicked’ can, in my opinion, be fully and deservedly ascribed to Viera Schreibner.

  109. #109 Neta
    June 15, 2011

    Watching this was quite something, both as someone who was unimmunized as a child (except for polio and tetnus) and as someone who hopes to have a child in the relatively near future.
    Warning, what follows is long and rambling… Also, while I’m very critical of my mother in what follows with respect to her views on immunization, I love her and respect her very much, except for this one infuriating area.

    My mother holds similar views to Viera Schiebner, although possibly not as hardline, which made this especially affecting. Her stance is that it is much better to get the childhood illnesses as a child(I sometimes get the impression that she thinks of them almost as being like developmental milestones!) than it is to be immunized against them, with the rationale that “natural immunities are stronger and last longer” and “no one healthy dies from childhood illnesses if they have proper care”. The polio vaccine gets a pass from her, because she thinks it’s more dangerous than the other diseases that are immunized and a relative of hers died from polio, the tetnus vaccine because getting tetnus doesn’t give you immunity.

    I’m so glad that when my brother and I were young (we were born in the mid 80’s) there wasn’t widespread Internet access, with the resulting anti-vaccination networking sites, because if there had been my mother would have used them to try to arrange “Pox Parties”, except for measles, mumps, rubella, and whooping cough. As it was, we “unfortunately” did not get them and when we were teenagers, I remember her trying (and failing) to get our doctors to locate single-component vaccines for mumps and rubella, so that I could get vaccinated against just rubella (I’m female) and my brother against just mumps, since “Rubella is only bad if you get it while pregnant and Mumps is only dangerous to men.” Yeah, no concept of how herd immunity works…

    I started to change my mind when I went away to college and my roommate was horrified that I hadn’t been vaccinated for spinal meningitis. I was surprised by the strength of her reaction, and so I started reading about vaccination and vaccine preventable diseases, and learning about concepts like herd immunity and vaccine penetrance. When I went back and read anti-immunization books and websites, I was shocked by how shoddy their reasoning was. And yes, around then I sat down with my doctor and worked out how to get me up-to-date on the recommended immunizations as soon as possible. My mother wasn’t happy, but decided that since I was over 18, I could take “risks” with my body. When my brother, who’s younger than me, was in his last year of high school, I worked out with my doctor what the highest priority vaccinations were for him to get before college, sat down with him and talked about immunizations and then that summer before he went off to college, encouraged him to make appointments with his doctor to get them. I remember my mother telling me that “If anything happens to him, you’ll be responsible”, although I did get her to admit that he was hardly likely, at the age of 18, to develop autism.

  110. #110 Neta
    June 15, 2011

    I have since tried talking to my mother about immunization and how it works and why it’s important, and she acts like, well, Viera Schiebner and her assistant. The smug, knowing expression is really the most frustrating part.

  111. #111 Venna
    June 15, 2011

    Your mom sounds vaugely like mine, but she held a much more paranoid view of vaccines. She believed they caused more harm then the illnesses and would indeed try to find people around who’s children had certain diseases so she could take us to their houses to play and get exposed and hopefully get the disease. My older brother and sister had pertussis when they were four years old and six months old respectively (before I was born.) I had mumps when I was 6 and it was HORRIBLE to go through that. My younger sister almost died of spinal meningitis when she was 18 months old (was in the hospital for about 4 months, was just learning to walk and when she came out couldn’t even crawl and was permanently and totally deaf in her right ear. When I was in high school, I, along with my younger siblings (who weren’t in high school yet) got pertussis. It was about two months before the cough went away and she had us going to school and other places where the public was because we weren’t throwing up (unless it was from a coughing fit) and we weren’t running fevers. I have such feelings of guilt about that now because who knows how many people may have been inftected while I was out in public and sick. I worked at a fast food restaurant after school and weekends too and was trying really hard not to cough while I was working because I was worried about what people might think. My mother always told us vaccines were bad, they would make us sick or kill us and when I made the decision to vaccinate my children, she took it as a personal insult. It was only my mom who shared this opinion, my dad is a native of Norway and when he came over to the US he had to get fully immunized to get his passport. My mom didn’t talk about that and I got the impression she took it as the family’s “dirty little secret” and that my dad was somehow less of a person because he was vaccinated. Once I got away from my mother’s paranoid thinking and tirades about vaccines (the only one she ever had us get was an MMR when I was 16 so we wouldn’t get kicked out of school again) I was able to do my own research about vaccinations as well as the disease themselves and while the indoctrination from my mother was still very strong, I made the decision to protect my children by the least intrusive manner; vaccines. The only one of my children that wasn’t vaccinated on schedule is my youngest, my 6th,(wasn’t vaccinated as an infant due to financial constraints at the time) he’s four, fully current now, but he has autism. Go figure…

  112. #112 Giliell
    June 15, 2011

    @Venna
    Don’t feel bad, it wasn’t your fault. You were a kid and it was the responsibility of your mum to protect you and the public.

    But I share the experiences you made (kind of). Not that my mum is a wooist, she’s actually a medical technician and totally pro-vaccine, but in Western Germany in the 1980’s, vaccination wasn’t big. Childhood-diseases were thought to be there for the child to catch.
    So I had the measles, whomping cough, mumps and somewhat my favourite: chicken pox on my 21st birthday. I somehow didn’t catch the local wild type in spite of chicken pox being rampant in school and among my friends. But then when I was an adult, my cousin came to visit with her two kids from Dresden (700 km), her youngest had chicken pox (they didn’t know yet and no, not even 10 years ago were children vaccinated against chicken pox) and I contracted it. Somehow whatever had protected me from the regional strand didn’t kick in with the “foreign” strand.

    Seriously, if my cases were the worst that could happen to any kid with those diseases, and the risks were the same as they are now, I’d still have my kids vaccinated.

  113. #113 Calli Arcale
    June 15, 2011

    Wow. Those are pretty compelling stories, Venna and Neta and Giliell. I grew up fully vaccinated, and was never exposed to anti-vax sentiments until adulthood.

    Neta — it’s rather scary your mother thought mumps is only harmful to boys. While it’s true it’s more obvious in boys, orchitis is not the only painful symptom of mumps. It can similarly inflame the ovaries of a girl who catches it, though I think sterility is pretty rare in girls who get it. (Males do have a much higher risk of this than girls do, but the risk to female fertility is not zero.)

  114. #114 Th1Th2
    June 15, 2011

    reasonablehank,

    For the cretin who calls Kailis’ death “iatrogenic”. I happen to know that that poor little baby boy was on an ECMO for 3 weeks, you cruel, callous bastard. Roslynd and Jay cried by his side that whole time. Still they weep.

    Oh the ECMO, I know that. That’s the last Hail Mary to fix, no not the child’s life, but this horrible medical blunder. Yup, these stupid doctors couldn’t even make a proper diagnosis, couldn’t even treat a cold yet they intervene with tons of procedures so what would you expect, a sour broth. In short they know NOTHING. They are the modern-day barbarians. Yeah, make ECMO the first line of treatment for anyone who has cold. Stupidity kills.

  115. #115 TBruce
    June 15, 2011

    Stupidity kills.

    Then you’re living on borrowed time, dude.

  116. #116 lilady
    June 15, 2011

    @ Thingy: I thought, after our communications between postings # 55 through # 65 above, we would have heard the last from you on this particular subject.

    You are a totally uneducated, ignorant, crass, devoid of any humanity POS troll. Now go crawl back to the sewer you inhabit…this blog is not here for your sicko amusement and we find your brain droppings offensive.

  117. #117 Th1Th2
    June 15, 2011

    Brutal, barbaric and inhuman, thy name is iatrogenesis.

    Current status of extracorporeal life support (ECMO) for cardiopulmonary failure.
    Abstract
    Extracorporeal life support with artificial heart and lung for cardiopulmonary failure is commonly called extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO). ECMO can provide partial or total support, is temporary, and requires systemic anticoagulation. ECMO controls gas exchange and perfusion, stabilizes the patient physiologically, decreases the risk of ongoing iatrogenic injury, and allows ample time for diagnosis, treatment, and recovery from the primary injury or disease.

    Way to go Modern Medicine. Let’s modernize stupidity. Let’s put the cart before the horse.

  118. #118 Th1Th2
    June 15, 2011

    Respiratory failure and extracorporeal membrane
    oxygenation

    Indications for ECMO
    The basic indication for ECMO for respiratory support is a
    reversible pulmonary disease where conventional treatment
    fails. By supporting the patient with ECMO, ventilatory
    support can be decreased to nontraumatic levels so that the
    lungs can recover without further iatrogenic damage.

  119. #119 Krebiozen
    June 15, 2011

    Th1Th2 – how did those “stupid doctors” make Kailis stop breathing at home, and arrest twice on the way to the hospital? Does iatrogenesis travel backwards in time?

    How do you treat cardiopulmonary failure on your planet? “Due diligence”? Or do you just wave your hands over the patient until they turn blue?

    Let’s put the cart before the horse.

    You mean they should let a child in respiratory arrest die because they don’t yet know what has caused it? No one can be that stupid, can they?

  120. #120 Antaeus Feldspar
    June 15, 2011

    Look, any time spent trying to reason with Thingy is wasted for one simple reason: we are trying to talk about the risk-benefit ratios of the various real-world options, and Thingy will always talk instead about her delusional belief in an option called “due diligence” which reduces all risk to 0%. On some level, I think, she realizes that this option doesn’t actually exist as she conceives of it, which is why when we ask her “how on Earth would due diligence protect you from ?” she blusters and flusters and answers some question other than the one she was asked. But curing her of her delusion will require a caring mental health professional who can make a real connection with her, and until she’s cured of that delusion, she’s not going to talk about the real world and our talk about the real world is going to sound like nonsense to her.

  121. #121 ausduck
    June 15, 2011

    If anthing demonstrates Thingy’s ignorant mind set and lack of medical knowledge it’s the quote mine in comment #120 re ECMO and ‘ongoing iatrogenic injury’, totally misunderstood by Thingy who has obviously never worked in an ICU/NICU/PICU.
    What a disgusting troll.

  122. #122 Dr. Steve
    June 16, 2011

    Amazing how Scheibner and Thingy callously disregard the opinions of the parents and the doctors involved, based on nothing. Who should you trust, quote mining google university drop outs or people who actually have responsibility and experience taking care of critically ill children?
    Do you take your car to a mechanic or to a kid who likes to read Hot Rod magazine?

  123. #123 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    June 20, 2011

    Tw1Tw2: “Let’s modernize stupidity. Let’s put the cart before the horse.”

    You want us to join in with your idiocy? Go out to a pub, find someone desperate. Get laid. You definitely need to! You’re in on your own too much and it makes you all wappy and you come on here and proceed to shit out of your proverbial mouth at us.

    Krebiozen: “You mean they should let a child in respiratory arrest die because they don’t yet know what has caused it? No one can be that stupid, can they?”

    Yep. Tw1Tw2 is. I thought that was an established fact!

    Kristen: “You would think of all topics, this thread; about a vile woman blaming parents for their babies’ deaths; would be left alone by the trolls. It truly shows a lack of humanity on their part that they are willing to make asinine comments here, rather than hang it up for a day or comment on another article.”

    You’re absolutely right. It shows exactly that. Trolls generally are the very shit end of humanity (possibly even representing hominid evolutionary waste, as some sort of sub-human throwback), and the ones who keep turning up here are striking examples of this phenomenon. One wonders if there might be a genetic marker we can test for these days that shows well in advance what people will turn out to be this sort of person, so that we could remove such evolutionary fuck-ups from the gene pool. At least the thought of such a test is a comforting thing.

    Gray Falcon: “If Ms. Scheibner believes both SIDS and Shaken Baby Syndrome are caused by vaccines, why is she condemning parents of the first and being supportive of parents with the second?”

    Because she is a vile, contemptible piece of uselessness masquerading as an expert in something she has fuck all clue about. I think that DSM V should include a very widely spread disorder of thought called Dunning-Kruger Syndrome. She could be the first official diagnosee.

    lilady: “Sorry Guys, if I got a bit resolute, but this video got to me and the unwarranted callous comments by some of the trolls, I believe, justified my remarks.”

    You being ‘resolute’ is pretty bloody awesome to see, if I may say. You are more highly educated than the trolls are. You have vastly more actual work experience than the trolls have. You have more intellectual integrity than the trolls have. In short, the trolls couldn’t hold a candle to you. This being so, ‘resolute’ is not only justified;it is probably imperative. IOW, no need for apologies. You are right to be so ‘resolute’. The trolls are wrong merely to exist.

    lilady: “We are still waiting for your education credentials and your qualifications to qualify you for ANY job.

    I submit you have never been in a pediatric ICU in any professional capacity and your medical knowledge is nil. Just a nasty vicious troll devoid of any human compassion who pulls factoids that he/she/it misinterprets out of his/her/its posterior.”

    Details of those qualifications/credentials will never come. Tw1Tw2 daren’t claim to have anything like an appropriate qualification because it knows that it cannot supply correct information on anything under discussion, and that would be one gaping hole full of ‘opps-i’m-a-shit-liar’ to have to fill. At least one hopes that this particular example of sub-human evolutionary wastage has that much sense!

    lilady: “You are a totally uneducated, ignorant, crass, devoid of any humanity POS troll. Now go crawl back to the sewer you inhabit…this blog is not here for your sicko amusement and we find your brain droppings offensive.”

    The only difference between what I would have written and what you wrote is this: I’d write out ‘piece of shit’. Otherwise, we’re in total agreement.

    Prometheus: “We are each entitled to our own opinions, but we can’t have our own reality.”

    Indeed. And – whilst not wishing to engage in internet diagnosis – I’m not sure that I could be convinced that Tw1Tw2 isn’t in fact presenting with a protracted psychotic disorder based on the very delusional material it has excreted onto this blog for all to see.

  124. #124 lilady
    June 20, 2011

    @ David N. Andrews: Well shucks, I just wanted to tell off the Thingy troll when he/she/it went beyond the pale discussing the needless death of an innocent baby boy.

    The Thing “may” be gainfully employed at some menial job located nearby a laboratory, certainly not in a laboratory actually performing any tests. We usually “tolerate” Thingy’s comments and sometimes actually engage the troll…for our own amusement…and just to see how far afield the Thing will wander.

    BTW, I am very capable of using the street vernacular, but try to refrain somewhat as befitting my status here as one of the more “senior” (older) posters here…I might be tempted however, in a face to face confrontation with Thingy to tell him/her/it to STFU.

  125. #125 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    June 20, 2011

    “I might be tempted however, in a face to face confrontation with Thingy to tell him/her/it to STFU.”

    Can I order my tickets now? Because I feel it is gonna happen! ;)

  126. #126 lilady
    June 20, 2011

    For you David, tickets will be “complimentary” for the smack-down event.

    Some posters here think that medical epidemiology is an easily acquired skill…no it isn’t. NYS Department of Health (and every other state) has guidelines for case definitions, case finding, case reporting, laboratory testing, outbreak containment and prophylaxis of every “notifiable disease”. Every communicable disease has unique features and unique medical epidemiology. The NYS Department of Health Guidelines for pertussis are available at:

    Pertussis Outbreak Control-New York State Department of Health (January, 2011)

  127. #127 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    June 21, 2011

    lilady: “For you David, tickets will be ‘complimentary’ for the smack-down event.”

    I thank you! Looking forward to that.

    “Some posters here think that medical epidemiology is an easily acquired skill…no it isn’t. NYS Department of Health (and every other state) has guidelines for case definitions, case finding, case reporting, laboratory testing, outbreak containment and prophylaxis of every ‘notifiable disease’.”

    Well, given that public health nurse (US) is health visitor (UK), and that an ex-gf of mine from way back is a HV/PHN, and she and I used to talk about all this sort of thing, I know what you mean… it was a whole one-year full-time course – post-RGN/SRN, and post-SCW – to get the DPSN, which got you the RHV status. The things she told me she had to do … exactly what you say here…

    I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised by the Dunnung-Krugerism that happens with the trolls and other idiots that post here – people whose training is not what it should be if they are to know what they claim they know – but it never ceases to amaze me that people can be so stupid as to believe in their own superiority (in terms of specialist knowledge) over those of us who have degrees in our respective professional fields.

    “Every communicable disease has unique features and unique medical epidemiology.”

    Yup. And the ordinary person in the street doesn’t get to change the rules on those things.

  128. #128 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    June 21, 2011

    For the record, folks, I got seven minutes into the video clip before switching it off. Hearing the plainly fucking idiotic crap that Schneibner and those other tosspots came out with made me want to hurl my bloody guts up.

    What the fuck is a woman whose background is not in health sciences doing claiming to be a fucking expert in a health related issue? Can anyone do anything about that stupid bitch? Like real soon now? She needs to be out of general circulation and somewhere where she can harm nobody else.

  129. #129 lilady
    June 21, 2011

    @ David N. Andrews: It was a fascinating, rewarding job and collaborative with all the physicians in the local health department, other local health departments, State epidemiologists and the CDC. We enjoyed working with local hospital staff and the patients we served.

    Now “in retirement”, I still enjoy the company of the fine nurses and physicians that I met “on the job”.

    And, I do so enjoy RI and SBM websites for the variety of posters talents and of course the feast of information prepared for us by our esteemed host, Orac.

  130. #130 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    June 21, 2011

    @lilady… *thumbs up*

    I actully come from a line of nurses (dad, his mum, her mum) … I went into psychology. Three was enough ;)

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