Remember Helen Ratajczak?

A few months ago, CBS News’ resident anti-vaccine reporter Sharyl Attkisson was promoting Ratajczak’s incompetent “analysis” of evidence that she views as implicating vaccines in the pathogenesis of autism entitled Theoretical aspects of autism: causes–A Review (which is available in all its misinforming glory here). I applied some not-so-Respectful Insolence to the idiocy contained within Ratajczak’s article. One aspect of the article that I mentioned was how Ratajczak claimed that DNA from “aborted fetal tissue” in vaccines correlated with the rise of autism. The claim was, of course, utter nonsense, a rank lie promoted by the fundamentalist Christian wing of the anti-vaccine movement, and I’ve dealt with it before. Sometimes, that wing even goes so far as to publish its own crappy studies.

Which brings us to Joe Mercola.

The other day, Joe Mercola published on his very own wretched hive of scum and quackery an article entitled One of the Most Inexcusable Vaccine Revelations of All… In it, Mercola takes what Ratajczak wrote and turns up the stupid to 11 and beyond.

He begins by using the tried-and-true (or tried-and-not-so-true) health freedom method of invoking “informed” consent, or (as I’ve described it before) “misinformed consent”:

If you are struggling to recall how you could have missed this important fact when signing your vaccine consent form, it wasn’t your error–because it wasn’t disclosed on any consent form. Most people are unaware that human cell cultures derived from aborted human fetuses have been used extensively in vaccine production for decades. And vaccine makers are happy that most of the public has remained ignorant of this fact, as awareness of it could blow up in their faces.

Setting aside, for the moment, unknown long-term health consequences of DNA contamination and religious beliefs about use of aborted fetal tissues–the ethics of nondisclosure are reprehensible. Drug companies and vaccine policy-makers should not be allowed to decide whether or not to share this information with you. This is information you should have received PRIOR to making a choice about whether or not to vaccinate.

As I pointed out before when deconstructing Ratajczak’s article, the whole bit about human DNA from fetal tissues in vaccines being a cause of anything is utter nonsense. Ratajczak claimed that the DNA from these “fetal cells” somehow got into brain cells, underwent homologous recombination, and then altered the cells to be sufficiently different from self to be recognized as “non-self.” As I pointed out before, I have a lot of experience working with human, mouse, and rat DNA. I know how difficult it is to get naked DNA into cells and to get it to make the protein for which it codes. Moreover, unless you’re using lentiviral vectors or some other retroviral delivery advice, the DNA will not be detectably incorporated into the DNA of the muscle cells. Its gene expression is extranuclear (outside the nucleus).

I can’t resist briefly recapping the implausibility of Dr. Ratajczak’s idea that I listed before. To do what Dr. Ratajczak claims, the minute amount of human DNA in a vaccine would have to:

  • Find its way to the brain in significant quantities.
  • Make it into the neurons in the brain in significant quantities.
  • Make it into the nucleus of the neurons in significant quantities.
  • Undergo homologous recombination at a detectable level, resulting in either the alteration of a cell surface protein or the expression of a foreign cell surface protein that the immune system can recognize.
  • Undergo homologous recombination in many neurons in such a way that results in the neurons having cell surface protein(s) altered sufficiently to be recognized as foreign.

In other words, from a strictly scientific point of view, blaming the DNA from “fetal cells” used to make vaccine is pretty darned implausible. True, it’s not, as I’m wont to say, homeopathy-level implausible, but it wouldn’t take all that much to get there, given that Ratajczak’s view of fetal DNA seems to be not unlike miasmas.

Mercola then goes on:

A recent study by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has led to a question of whether there is a correlation between the abrupt rise in American autism rates with the introduction of fetal cells for use in vaccines (1988). This correlation has prompted researchers to ask the question about how aborted fetal DNA could be causing, or contributing to, the development of autism disorders in children. Thus far, there have been no proposed theories of a mechanism. However, it’s a significant correlation that should at least be investigated. If you care about what you put into your body, and into your child’s body, and you are outraged by this information, you are not alone.

How can a person be pro-life and NOT object to the use of these vaccines?

I discussed this “study” before. It’s an amazing example of torturing the data to fit a preconceived hypothesis. Basically, some “researchers” claim to have found that there were “change points” for the incidence of autism in 1980, 1988, and 1995, when autism incidence increased. What happened in these three years to cause these “change points”? Guess. That’s right, it’s the vaccines, as it always is for anti-vaccine activists. In 1979, the rubella vaccine was introduced in the U.S.; there’s change point number one in 1980. Then, in 1988 the second dose of the MMR vaccine was added; there’s change point number two. Then, in 1995, the chickenpox vaccine was introduced, and there you have change point number three. As I described, it’s all nonsense, crappy, ideologically driven “science” of the crappiest, most ideologically driven sort. I guess that makes it appropriate for Mercola to be citing.

Mercola then appeals directly to religion:

The impact of the finding that many vaccines are derived from aborted fetal cell lines is potentially enormous, given the great number of people who define themselves as Pro Life. For someone who is Pro Life to discover that a vaccine contains the DNA from aborted fetuses is like a Muslim finding out that a vaccine is derived from pork.

Actually, that line has been tried before, where fundamentalist Muslims have claimed that vaccines are unclean because of gelatin derived from pork. No less a “luminary” of the anti-vaccine movement than David Kirby has tried this ploy. It’s nonsense; Muslim authorities in, for example, Britain have out and out said, “In terms of ingredients in vaccines, there are so many things that are probably Haram, but in the absence of an alternative we are allowed to take it for the sake of our health.”

Not that this stops Mercola from regurgitating the same attempted fear-mongering with respect to Catholics:

I would anticipate that many of the people who object to use of aborted fetal tissues for scientific research are going to be shocked and outraged when they learn that their children have been secretly injected with vaccines containing DNA, proteins, or related cellular debris from cell cultures derived from aborted human fetuses.

This is not a small portion of the population!

The two largest religious preferences in the U.S. are Catholic and Evangelical, representing 50 percent of the population. And those are not the only two groups who typically share Pro Life views. Given these numbers, you could extrapolate that more than one of every two people receiving vaccines might have opted out of them based on religious beliefs alone, had they been given truthful and complete information about how the vaccines were produced.

The Catholic Church objects to “formal cooperation” with abortion. However, in terms of its vaccine policy, there are more gray areas than mandates.

Actually, as anyone with a modicum of knowledge about cell biology should know, cell lines derived from even an aborted fetus are very, very far removed, hundreds of population doublings given that the cell lines in question were first isolated in the 1960s. When there is no other reliable, practical method to make the vaccines in question, the Catholic Church has supported vaccination, as the link provided by Mercola himself demonstrates:

However, if the latter are exposed to considerable dangers to their health, vaccines with moral problems pertaining to them may also be used on a temporary basis. The moral reason is that the duty to avoid passive material cooperation is not obligatory if there is grave inconvenience. Moreover, we find, in such a case, a. proportional reason, in order to accept the use of these vaccines in the presence of the danger of favouring the spread of the pathological agent, due to the lack of vaccination of children. This is particularly true in the case of vaccination against German measles.

In practice, this means that the Church does not discourage vaccination, and indeed most Catholic institutions, such as hospitals and schools, have vaccination policies indistinguishable from those of non-Catholic institutions. A rather interesting discussion of this very issue can be found here, where a parent who wants a religious exemption from having her child vaccinated was shocked to find out that the Catholic school to which she is sending her child refused to let her child attend if she claimed the exemption based on the “Bishop’s Diocesan Policy regarding immunizations.”

Of course, I highly doubt that Mercola gives a rodent’s posterior about religious beliefs. He’s anti-vaccine, and he sees anti-abortion religious beliefs as an opportunity to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt about vaccines, like any good denialist would. That’s why, like many of the anti-abortion anti-vaccine sources Mercola cites, he tries his hardest to blur the line between cells that were derived long ago from an aborted fetus and aborted fetal tissue, the false implication being that there is aborted fetal tissue in vaccines.

Fortunately, other than for a relatively small number of Catholics and evangelicals, this tactic doesn’t appear to work. Not that that stops anti-vaccine activists like Joe Mercola.

Comments

  1. #1 Lawrence
    July 14, 2011

    I’m not sure how idiot troll gets around that fact, that before the vaccine almost the entire population got the “wild” measles virus (and suffered accordingly from the various side-effects – which are far more common by many magnitudes than the current side-effects of the vaccine).

  2. #2 Beamup
    July 14, 2011

    They obviously were not duly diligent. Apparently, every single other person in history is an incompetent idiot who can’t instantly identify people who have (even asymptomatic) infections, as well as any place such infected people have recently been. Yet people today aren’t and therefore diseases will be avoided successfully now.

  3. #3 CG
    July 14, 2011

    Eventually, wild-type infection will be eliminated for as long people will exercise due diligence.

    Complete and utter bullshit.

    Why has no airborne disease every been eliminated in this manner? It does not work.

    People are infectious before they show symptoms. Pathogens persist in the environment long after the person is gone.

    Unless you live in a bubble, you will get these diseases eventually.

    There’s a reason measles was considered a childhood disease, everyone got it fairly early in their life because it was incredibly infectious.

    You clearly have no understanding of how disease is actually transmitted.

  4. #4 Lawrence
    July 14, 2011

    By idiot troll’s logic, diseases shouldn’t even exist today – obviously in the thousands of years before vaccines existed, it would have been plenty of time for all known pathogens to just die out, right?

    Wow – what utter insanity.

  5. #5 Krebiozen
    July 14, 2011

    If MMR vaccination rates don’t increase in the US, things will inevitably go the same way as in France and the rest of Europe. Numbers in the US this year are about the same as they were in France 3 years ago. In the US, as in France, it is clusters of unvaccinated people with “philosophical” objections to vaccination that are the problem. There have been 118 cases in the US up to the end of May this year and 89% of them were unvaccinated. At this rate we can expect tens of thousands of cases in the US in the next few years, with hundreds of cases of pneumonia, encephalitis and inevitably some deaths.

    It is obvious to everyone (even, I suspect, Th1Th2) that “due diligence” will be utterly useless in the face of large scale outbreaks of disease. I find it very frustrating that a disease that is so easily and safely preventable is making a comeback, and that unless something changes more people will suffer and die unnecessarily.

  6. #6 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    July 15, 2011

    So Thingy is exercising “due diligence”, presumably walking around in a sealed suit of some kind and breathing air out of a SCUBA tank or something…my question is: How does she know that nobody who passed anywhere near the area where her SCUBA tank was filled for a few hours beforehand had an asymptomatic measles infection? I say “asymptomatic” because I’m sure nobody with a visible rash ever walks anywhere near a diving shop!

  7. #7 Krebiozen
    July 15, 2011

    Maybe Th1Th2 believes that a small furry rodent strapped to your face filters out viruses. That would explain that weird stuff about squirrels.

  8. #8 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    JohnV,

    If I told you that people got measles through the internet would you go away and never come back?

    How exactly do you do that? Download the virus? Share the virus P2P? Torrent, .iso, .rar or what? Press Cancel or Ctrl-Alt-Del to stop? No wonder you’re wearing N95s.

  9. #9 Rubeola
    July 15, 2011

    Folks! Folks! I applaud your attempts at convincing the troll that I am far more infectious than he can possibly imagine. But you know what I am seeing? I am seeing people trying to mud wrestle a pig. You all are getting dirty, and Th1Th2 is enjoying it.

    Don’t feed the troll.

  10. #10 CG
    July 15, 2011

    How exactly do you do that? Download the virus? Share the virus P2P? Torrent, .iso, .rar or what? Press Cancel or Ctrl-Alt-Del to stop? No wonder you’re wearing N95s.

    And instead of answering a question, it avoids them by harping on a joke.

  11. #11 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    Lawrence,

    I’m not sure how idiot troll gets around that fact, that before the vaccine almost the entire population got the “wild” measles virus (and suffered accordingly from the various side-effects – which are far more common by many magnitudes than the current side-effects of the vaccine)

    Before the vaccine, the wild-type measles virus monopolized the disease. There was no competition for there were no secondary sources. Since the introduction of the vaccine, the trend had dramatically reversed. Not only the measles virus uptake has increased four times, the vaccine, hitherto, has become the leading source of the measles virus and the leading cause of primary measles infection.

    So what have you prevented thus far?

  12. #12 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    CG,

    I thought #198 was a joke.

  13. #13 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    Folks! Folks! I applaud your attempts at convincing the troll that I am far more infectious than he can possibly imagine. But you know what I am seeing? I am seeing people trying to mud wrestle a pig. You all are getting dirty, and Th1Th2 is enjoying it.

    Don’t feed the troll.

    Don’t tell me you’re also the Virus. You must be the real troll, you’re protean.

  14. #14 Lawrence
    July 15, 2011

    Word Salad – what you wrote makes no sense (not that anything you write makes any sense at all to a rational human being).

    Since your definitions of just about everything differ from what the rest of the world considers the proper use and definition of the language, your posts are meaningless & irrevelant to any discussion.

    But, in this case – since nearly 100% of the population was exposed to Measles before the vaccine & suffered both the actual disease itself (meaning the real symptoms) and the normal rate of side effects (1 in 5 to 1 in 100 for the various afflictions, including blindness and pnuemonia – and 1 in 1000 for deaths) – compared to today, where nearly 100% of the vaccinated do not suffer the normal intensity of the disease (or any outward symptoms at all) and suffer side effects in the range of 1 in 1 mil for any serious complications, your logic does not hold any water whatsoever.

    If no one vaccinated, there is no reason to believe that measles prevelance would not return to its pre-vaccine levels of infection – where nearly 100% of the population would once again be exposed & suffer the magnitude higher rates of both direct effects of debilitation and death, plus the side-effects of blindness, pneumonia, etc – which may be more survivable today, but no less severe.

    Again, since your definitions are uniquely your own & have no basis in any kind of reality, this will fly completely over your head & be ignored. But it is a blast to laugh at your complete inanity.

  15. #15 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    CG,

    Why has no airborne disease every been eliminated in this manner? It does not work.

    Because the goal of vaccination is NOT disease prevention.

    People are infectious before [and after] they show symptoms.

    Pathogens persist in the environment long after the person is gone.

    That’s why there is terminal disinfection procedure in the hospital.

    Unless you live in a bubble, you will get these diseases eventually. There’s a reason measles was considered a childhood disease, everyone got it fairly early in their life because it was incredibly infectious.

    14 known infectious diseases with 36 deliberate exposures in a span of only two years after birth, they sure are not in a hurry, are they?

    You clearly have no understanding of how disease is actually transmitted.

    I just said. The most common mode of disease transmission is through direct inoculation.

  16. #16 Lawrence
    July 15, 2011

    Idiot Troll – CG asked why no airborne diseases had been eliminated by your methods (and also in the pre-vaccine era) – by your own admission, diseases should just die out, right? So why didn’t they in the past?

    Infectious areas only exist in hospitals? How does one “terminally” disinfect public places?

  17. #17 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    Lawrence,

    Idiot Troll – CG asked why no airborne diseases had been eliminated by your methods (and also in the pre-vaccine era) – by your own admission, diseases should just die out, right? So why didn’t they in the past?

    First off, I did not exist in the pre-vaccine era (there were less smart people those days but there were oppositions). Secondly, a disease cannot be eliminated if disease transmission lies in the hands of the provider and the promoter hence my answer in #215.

  18. #18 Todd W.
    July 15, 2011

    I get it now! Th1Th2 is a solipsist!

  19. #19 CG
    July 15, 2011

    That’s why there is terminal disinfection procedure in the hospital.

    And what about in a restaurant?
    What if the person in the table next to you is infected with measles and not yet showing symptoms?
    Or the person who sat there before you?
    Or the person making your food?

    How do you protect yourself in these scenarios?

    You will somehow manage to evade the question since it is a hypothetical and you’ll go back to your talking point about deliberate infections.

  20. #20 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    Lawrence,

    Infectious areas only exist in hospitals? How does one “terminally” disinfect public places?

    That’s the problem your leader didn’t teach you how it is done instead they taught all of you how to get the virus easily and directly through injection. Don’t ask, don’t doubt, no sweat.

  21. #21 Krebiozen
    July 15, 2011

    So what have you prevented thus far?

    In the USA? About half a million cases of clinical measles, thousands of cases of otitis media, thousands of cases of pneumonia, hundreds of cases of encephalitis and hundreds of deaths each and every year.

  22. #22 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    CG,

    You will somehow manage to evade the question since it is a hypothetical and you’ll go back to your talking point about deliberate infections.

    Kindly read #192.

  23. #23 Lawrence
    July 15, 2011

    Once again, idiot troll simply refuses to answer questions – like how does one “terminally” disinfect a public place, like a library or restaurant or even a school?

    And your post in #215 isn’t an answer – at least not a coherent one. You said that diseases would die out if vaccines were discontinued, so following that logic, in the pre-vaccine era, all diseases should have died out.

    Please explain the inconsistency with reality.

  24. #24 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    Krebiozen,

    In the USA? About half a million cases of clinical measles, thousands of cases of otitis media, thousands of cases of pneumonia, hundreds of cases of encephalitis and hundreds of deaths each and every year.

    With 11 and a half million more cases of subclinical measles caused by the vaccine every year intentionally not reported because of bias diagnostic screening “amidst thousands of cases of otitis media, thousands of cases of pneumonia, hundreds of cases of encephalitis and hundreds of deaths each and every year”.

    Again, what have you prevented?

  25. #25 Lawrence
    July 15, 2011

    Yeah, ignore all of the cases of blindess, pneumonia, encephalitis & deaths that don’t now occur….good going there.

  26. #26 Krebiozen
    July 15, 2011

    I did not exist in the pre-vaccine era

    If only you had been around to advise me on how to avoid measles back in the 60s when I caught it. It’s too late for my children too, but at least you can tell me how my future grandchildren can avoid getting measles without vaccination.

    Should I tell them to leave the classroom immediately any child sneezes or coughs? What do I tell their teacher? How does that work on the school bus? Or will they have to be home schooled and never have any contact other children at all? Won’t that mean they will turn out like Augustine? What about if they go on vacation on a plane and someone near them starts sneezing? “Stop the plane I want to get off!”?

    Please explain, I’m one of those “less smart people” who don’t understand how this works.

  27. #27 CG
    July 15, 2011

    Kindly read #192.

    Which means my prediction was completely accurate. You can’t answer the question so you avoid it.

  28. #28 lilady
    July 15, 2011

    “No, I don’t use any timer because I don’t need to. We only use that in the hospital for terminal disinfection of the room previously occupied by a known infectious patient.” (Thingy at #182 above)

    That statement infers that Thingy actually works in a hospital…what a joke. Terminal disinfection of a hospital room takes place after the patient is discharged from the hospital and before another patient is assigned to the hospital room. There are completely different isolation protocols put in place when a suspect case of measles may have contaminated a hospital, clinic or doctor’s waiting room or examination room and it involves “a timer” that Thingy never uses.

    Thingy is not qualified to work within the health care setting in even the most menial categories; uneducated and unlicensed. The closest Thingy ever gets to the health care professions is possibly his/her/its collection of scrubs that he/she/it wears in a variety of colors.

    Thingy doesn’t even qualify as a troll…dumbest category.

  29. #29 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    Lwarence,

    Once again, idiot troll simply refuses to answer questions – like how does one “terminally” disinfect a public place, like a library or restaurant or even a school?

    Then find the meaning of terminal disinfection and see where it applies.

    And your post in #215 isn’t an answer – at least not a coherent one. You said that diseases would die out if vaccines were discontinued, so following that logic, in the pre-vaccine era, all diseases should have died out.

    Read #200 and don’t put the cart before the horse. Before the vaccines, there was natural infection. We have only one source of infection at that time. Since the introduction of vaccines, you have created another source of infection hence diseases progressed.

  30. #30 CG
    July 15, 2011

    you have created another source of infection hence diseases progressed.

    Which is why there are SOOOOO many deaths from measles, smallpox, polio, Hib, ect. these days….

  31. #31 Lawrence
    July 15, 2011

    Nope, still stupid, inane & completely without rational thought – good luck with that idiot troll.

  32. #32 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    CG,

    Which means my prediction was completely accurate. You can’t answer the question so you avoid it.

    You’re just repeating the same crap they have asked me before and you’re not paying close attention. I have answered that a couple of times and I will say it again that I will have to doubt it was measles. Do you have any problem with that?

    Your prediction that you’re dyslexic is completely accurate and there is clear evidence.

  33. #33 lilady
    July 15, 2011

    Thingy still fixated on “terminal disinfection” for respiratory-borne diseases, eh?

    Why don’t you get your GED, take some classes at a community college, then take some basic science classes and if you can pass them, try to get yourself matriculated into community college for more difficult science courses so that you might have minimal qualifications to post here about diseases and vaccine-preventable diseases. Otherwise, you will be treated as the idiot uneducated troll that you are.

  34. #34 Krebiozen
    July 15, 2011

    Again, what have you prevented?

    You are seriously suggesting that the measles component of MMR is responsible for “thousands of cases of otitis media, thousands of cases of pneumonia, hundreds of cases of encephalitis and hundreds of deaths each and every year”? Any evidence for that at all? Thought not.

    Here’s some evidence that you are utterly wrong.

  35. #35 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    lilady,

    Terminal disinfection of a hospital room takes place after the patient is discharged from the hospital and before another patient is assigned to the hospital room.

    Oh the ol’ nurse is back. Is this another “intradermal” thingy, you know, your infamous “underneath-the-skin” injection? You didn’t define terminal disinfection. Care to explain? Do you also terminally disinfect your filthy room?

    There are completely different isolation protocols put in place when a suspect case of measles may have contaminated a hospital, clinic or doctor’s waiting room or examination room and it involves “a timer” that Thingy never uses.

    Give me one example. Please just one.

  36. #36 CG
    July 15, 2011

    that I will have to doubt it was measles.

    Which is a reasonable assumption given the current rarity of the disease.

    But you advocate not vaccinating. That will make measles return and it will become common again. Your assumption then will be wrong. Everyone will come into contact with the virus. You cannot prevent that.

    You just keep avoiding answering any hypothetical questions. Probably because you don’t have any real answer.

  37. #37 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    CG,

    You just keep avoiding answering any hypothetical questions. Probably because you don’t have any real answer.

    In fairness, I have answered that. What next. Fairies are real because I cannot give you any “real” answer. Re-read #192.

    But you advocate not vaccinating. That will make measles return and it will become common again. Your assumption then will be wrong. Everyone will come into contact with the virus. You cannot prevent that.

    The shortest distance between the uninfected and the pathogen is a vaccine and they cannot prevent that. And they are hungry for more. Read #215.

  38. #38 Rubeola
    July 15, 2011

    The shortest distance between the uninfected and the pathogen is a vaccine and they cannot prevent that. And they are hungry for more.

    Except for those vaccines that contain only the good, immunogenic bits of the virus or bacteria. But you’re all about ignoring things that go against your theory. So don’t even bother addressing those “acellular” vaccines.

  39. #39 CG
    July 15, 2011

    Thingy, you provided a complete non-answer in 192.

    Hypothetical situations don’t have to exist. They are hypothetical. Now answer them.

  40. #40 lilady
    July 15, 2011

    @ Thingy “Give me one example. Please just one.”

    Here’s more than one example for you to peruse:

    CDC HICPAC (Healthcare Infection Control Practices Advisory Committee)

    2007 Guideline for Isolation Precautions: Preventing Transmission of Infectious Agents in Health Care Settings

    Thingy, it is a rather voluminous (225 pages) guideline…but with all your many credentials and your education background and experiences working in the health care field, you should be able to “blow through” it in record time.

    (Dumbest troll ever)

  41. #41 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    Rubeola,

    Except for those vaccines that contain only the good, immunogenic bits of the virus or bacteria.

    What’s so good about those bits and pieces when they are also the most virulent parts of the pathogen.

    But you’re all about ignoring things that go against your theory. So don’t even bother addressing those “acellular” vaccines.

    Haha. Dumb. Acellular vaccines contain endotoxins.

  42. #42 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    lilady,

    Hey senile nurse. This is how you have defined terminal disinfection and I quote ad verbatim

    Terminal disinfection of a hospital room takes place after the patient is discharged from the hospital and before another patient is assigned to the hospital room.

    Now, do you consider this as part of the 2007 Guideline for Isolation Precautions: Preventing Transmission of Infectious Agents in Health Care Settings?

    Yes or no.

  43. #43 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    CG,

    Hypothetical situations Fairies don’t have to exist. They are hypothetical. Now answer them.

    I will have to doubt that they exist. And that has been my answer for the umpteenth time. Happy now?

  44. #44 CG
    July 15, 2011

    Haha. Dumb. Acellular vaccines contain endotoxins.

    Which according to you is sufficient to cause an infection, but only if it’s from a pathogenic organism.

    However, E. coli K12 LPS can’t cause an infection because it’s not a pathogen, despite the fact it is actually the most potent activator of TLR4.

    Everyone should know that is how Thingy’s mind works.

  45. #45 Rubeola
    July 15, 2011

    What’s so good about those bits and pieces when they are also the most virulent parts of the pathogen.

    That’s like saying that bullets are the deadliest part of guns. But you still need the gun to shoot them, numnuts.

    The bits and pieces are not virulent without the… you guessed it… effing pathogen. The bits and pieces do squat by themselves. They’re just proteins or sugars. Nothing more.

    Jesus, you’re dense.

  46. #46 lilady
    July 15, 2011

    @ Thingy: you brought up “terminal disinfection” at # 182 above regarding measles transmission in a hospital setting:

    “No, I don’t use any timer because I don’t need to. We only use that in the hospital for terminal disinfection of the room previously occupied by a known infectious patient.”

    I cannot believe that you are so dumb as to simple precautions implemented in health care settings when dealing with a suspect measles case exposure.

    Why not read the advisory issued recently by the NYC Department of Health and Mental Hygiene:

    June 8, 2011 ALERT # 9 Increase in Measles Cases and Hospital Exposure

    Note that the recommendations are to isolate the patient and to close off any examination room that the suspect patient used for at least TWO hours. Dumb troll, it is a respiratory-borne disease spread via droplet route. Terminal disinfection does not apply here. You might also read the entire ALERT #9 issued by NYC to see that cases of actual (natural) measles exposed 1600 people to measles and that each unimmunized exposed person including babies too young to have received measles vaccine, were prophylaxed with immune globulin.

    I’m sure the Commissioner of the NYC Department of Health would be interested in your “unique” talents and views based on your vast educational and clinical background in immunology and infection control to revise the recommendations issued by the Health Department; why not email the Commissioner and do let us know how that all works out for you.

    (Dumber than the Dumbest Troll, Ever)

  47. #47 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    CG,

    However, E. coli K12 LPS can’t cause an infection because it’s not a pathogen, despite the fact it is actually the most potent [nonpathogenic] activator of TLR4.

    Duh.

    I can’t wait for the medical crooks and the media to sensationalize cliche things like “A new medical discovery in vaccines….blah blah…. A novel strain of…blah..blah…A rare but deadly…blah…blah…There’s a new vaccine against…blah…blah… and how vaccines save lives …blah..blah…blah

  48. #48 Lawrence
    July 15, 2011

    Luckily we have you, don’t we – all blah, blah, blah, blah….makes for good entertainment, playing what’s its reality look like today with the idiot troll.

    I’ve had my fill.

  49. #49 Gray Falcon
    July 15, 2011

    Th1Th2, how do you know you’re right? Do you have any evidence? Do you simply believe that if you have an idea, it must be right? Do you ever check to make sure you’re right, or do you simply assume you are infallible? Are you aware that as a human, you must be capable of error?

  50. #50 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    lilady,

    Note that the recommendations are to isolate the patient and to close off any examination room that the suspect patient used for at least TWO hours. Dumb troll, it is a respiratory-borne disease spread via droplet route. Terminal disinfection does not apply here.

    Another of the “duh-hello-WTH” in the life of lilady. Can’t you read?

    environmental measures (e.g., cleaning and disinfection of the patient care environment and equipment,

    I know your eyes are failing you and you’re too damn lazy and slow but let others do the job for you. Don’t just close the door for two hours. That is gross negligence.

  51. #51 CG
    July 15, 2011

    See? Thingy thinks molecules have intent.

    The most potent endotoxin that exists is completely harmless because it’s from a harmless bacteria.

    And the identical endotoxin from a pathogenic strain can cause infections because it’s from a pathogen.

  52. #52 Gray Falcon
    July 15, 2011

    Th1Th2, at no point did lilady say environmental measures weren’t involved. Do you believe that isolation and environmental measures are mutually exclusive, that one only can do one or the other? Are you aware that’s about as nonsensical as thinking one can only wear pants or a shirt, but not both?

  53. #53 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    Rubeola,

    That’s like saying that bullets are the deadliest part of guns. But you still need the gun to shoot them, numnuts.

    Oh look at this. Analogies to the rescue! And as always, an epic fail. (Hint: That’s why vaccinators need syringes to shoot them, duh)

    The bits and pieces are not virulent without the… you guessed it… effing pathogen. The bits and pieces do squat by themselves. They’re just proteins or sugars. Nothing more.

    Tetanospasmin alone causes tetanus and could paralyze the host without the bacterium. They did it in rats. Want to try?

  54. #54 lilady
    July 15, 2011

    @ Dumber than Dumb Troll Thingy: You’re good for a couple of laughs now and then when we want to have some fun.

    I have implemented “terminal disinfection” of my computer monitor every time I read one of your dumber than dumb troll postings. Let us know how your unique talents have worked for you when you email the Commissioner of the NYS Department of Health and Mental Hygiene…we are waiting with bated breath.

    (Dumber than Dumber than Dumb Troll)

  55. #55 lilady
    July 15, 2011

    @ Gray Falcon: Thingy has been so totally busted for the uneducated and lack of job experience in the health care setting, dumber than dumb troll that he/she/it is.

    Notice how Thingy always changes the subject, re-invents and re-interprets other postings and goes off on tangents whenever he/she/it finds itself boxed in…typical troll-like behaviors. And, I am still not convinced that Thingy is not part of a troll tag team with the Ugh Troll.

    Yup, I picture the Thingy cave dweller as part of the Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum Tag Team Troll Act.

  56. #56 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    Gray,

    Th1Th2, at no point did lilady say environmental measures weren’t involved.

    She vehemently denies terminal disinfection plays an important part in infection control of airborne diseases like measles. According to her, simply closing the door for two hours is enough.

  57. #57 Krebiozen
    July 15, 2011

    @Gray Falcon

    Most of this weird alternate reality comes from whale.to, I’m pretty sure. I have browsed there (and felt soiled afterwards) and I came across some very familiar sounding BS.

    whale.to + a pathological fear of infection = Th1Th2

    Better to risk death than to be deliberately “infected” with an attenuated virus or a dead virus, or even an inert piece of protein made by baker’s yeast.

    Th1Th2, whatever would you do if the rest of us didn’t get vaccinated and provide you with a relatively pathogen-free environment?

  58. #58 lilady
    July 15, 2011

    @ Krebiozen: Thingy dwells in a bat cave and should start marketing the bat guano that he/she/it stores there as a “terminal disinfecting” chemical. Why not ask Thingy in what health care field he/she/it practices in…and how he/she/it gets past the pre-employment requirement for full immunization against vaccine-preventable diseases as well as yearly seasonal flu immunizations…for continued employment in a clinical setting?

    I’m still “terminally disinfecting” my computer monitor after reading Thingy’s latest posting and Thingy shouldn’t limit his/her/its email to the NYC Commissioner of Public Health. I’m sure the megalomaniac Thingy would want to spread the bat guano around to every State’s health department and share those communications with us.

  59. #59 herr doktor bimler
    July 15, 2011

    The most common mode of disease transmission is through direct inoculation.

    IIRC the commonest infectious disease is Hepatitis B. Then there are malaria, dengue fever, and a whole lot of others. All, apparently, transmitted most commonly through direct inoculation. I learn so much at RI.

  60. #60 lilady
    July 15, 2011

    @ Herr Doktor Bimler: How about rabies, babesiosis, Ehrlichiois West Nile Virus, Y. pestis, plague, cat-scratch fever and a plethora of other vector-borne or zoonotic diseases? Thingy uses “direct inoculation” to describe his/her/its unique “theories” of disease transmission of vaccine-preventable diseases…dumber than dumb troll “theories”.

  61. #61 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 15, 2011

    Thingy is so boring. Oh sure, every now and then she squats out a howler like infectious diseases having all evolved to give their potential hosts plenty of warning and plenty of opportunity to avoid infection – Nature, Emily Post-like in tooth and claw!

    But mostly it’s just the same boring, sad, delusional fallacies. Her reliance on the ignoratio elenchi fallacy in particular makes the prospect of trying to coax some logic out of her a futile task. Whenever she encounters a question that her mental illness doesn’t like the answer to, she simply invents a question that no one asked and answers that instead. “How do I avoid catching measles when someone with wild-type measles has made a public area that I’m about to enter an infectious area, with no visible signs that it is now infectious? (Oh crap; my ‘due diligence’ can’t do anything about that. If that happens, I’m screwed – and I’m so terrified at the thought of something being beyond my control like that, I can’t deal with it in any other way but denial.) Ha ha ha ha! I don’t go anywhere near inoculating needles, that’s how I protect myself from the vaccine-type virus!” “No one asked you about the vaccine-type virus, Thingy. We asked about the wild-type virus.” “Well, all I have to do is not go near you and I’m safe; you’re the foremost distributor of the vaccine-type virus so if I stay away from you, I won’t catch the vaccine-type virus!” “No one asked you about the vaccine-type virus, Thingy. We asked about -” “Let me answer your question about just how bad I think the vaccine-type virus is!!”

    There are trolls who are worth replying to, because it can be educational to show exactly where their superficially plausible arguments fall apart when looked at squarely. But Thingy’s arguments are not the result of a misunderstanding that can be illuminated and corrected; they’re the result of a paranoia so fierce she’d rather turn the entire rest of reality on its head rather than admit that her “due diligence” strategy can’t give her the 100% protection she craves literally beyond reason. Sadly, there’s really no lesson to learn here besides “get to a mental health professional before, not after, you’ve broken your contact with reality.”

  62. #62 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    lilady,

    Note that the recommendations are to isolate the patient and to close off any examination room that the suspect patient used for at least TWO hours. Dumb troll, it is a respiratory-borne disease spread via droplet route. Terminal disinfection does not apply here.

    Ouch. Oh please I beg you to self-impose Rule 14 STAT.

    Category B.
    This category covers infections spread from the respiratory tract via droplets eg. chickenpox, measles, mumps.
    Terminal disinfection of isolation rooms – all surfaces and walls must be washed thoroughly with warm water and detergent and dried (wipe over with a disinfectant if indicated) All bed linen, curtains etc. that is sent to the laundry should be clearly marked “infected” The bed mattress and pillow should be wiped with warm water and detergent and dried thoroughly. Occasionally, a disinfectant may be indicated. All heat-sensitive items of equipment that are for common ward use should be wiped with 70% alcohol mixture. All autoclavable items should be sent to the CSSD. All disposable items should be discarded in containers for clinical waste and the room should be aired and open for admission after 24 hours. If the isolation area is a bed on an open ward, then the entire surrounding area up to the next bed, including curtains, should be treated as above.

    (P.S. Don’t forget to close the door.)

  63. #63 Th1Th2
    July 15, 2011

    lilady,

    I’m still “terminally disinfecting” my computer monitor after reading Thingy’s latest posting […]

    Now I will have to doubt that you really own a computer.

  64. #64 Politicalguineapig
    July 15, 2011

    If I remember correctly, the advantage of vaccines is that the virus inside is 1)inert, and 2) cannot be transmitted from person to person. True? (Not to mention, you don’t see that many people becoming deaf or blind from the vaccines.)
    Jeez, I’ve only had one college-level biology course, and I just can’t understand the conclusions that some of the commentors here reach. So it’s better to have one’s children risk death, blindness or deafness than to give them a few harmless jabs?

  65. #65 joejoe
    July 15, 2011

    Who is ORAC? Quite simple a mouth piece for Big Pharma, what other sane person would be on the internet defending, vaccines as if they are the very origins of life? it is the one that profits the most that hurts the most when toxic vaccines are are in question, which is all the time lately, just imagine a few years from now when the anti dangerous vaccine movement picks up more steam, what things will be like for the Big Pharma and its defenders. With the internet, vaccines are being exposed at a accelerated pace, and there will be no more hiding in the vast vaccine toxic wasteland.

  66. #66 Drivebyposter
    July 15, 2011

    Who is joejoe?
    A shill for Bigpharma. Who else would denounce a wonder of fucking scientific medicine but someone who would stand to gain from all of the countless treatments for diseases that could be prevented by vaccines.

  67. #67 Heliantus
    July 15, 2011

    @ Politicalguineapig

    If I remember correctly, the advantage of vaccines is that the virus inside is 1)inert, and 2) cannot be transmitted from person to person. True?

    Not exactly, a number of vaccines are using live-attenuated viruses (measles, rubella, rabbies, some forms of flu vaccines like flumist…). In these cases, the viruses are not inert, but alive. However, their infectiousness has been strongly diminished.
    In some rare cases, they are able to be transmitted to another person. That’s notably the case for the oral polio vaccine.
    In even more rare cases, the live virus will manage to revert back to the wild-type form, causing a full-blown infection and being much more transmissible. Again, the oral polio vaccine is infamous for this. A regular posted a link to an article about this in the thread about From Deep in the Heart of Sin City.

    But despite this, yes, people receiving the attenuated virus are much less likely to display the usual signs of infection, and even less to suffer from it. This has been discussed at length on previous threads, notably for measles: this illness generally results in death in 0.1% to 5% of cases (if you include encephalitis- and pneumonia-related deaths), while the measles vaccine has a 1 / million serious side effect rate (not just death).

  68. #68 Rilke's Granddaughter
    July 16, 2011

    Seriously. Thingie is a Poe. No one, truly no one who could operate a computer could be this stupid.

  69. #69 Politicalguineapig
    July 16, 2011

    Thanks, Heliantus. I’m a rank amatur compared to you guys, so I wasn’t too sure of my facts. I didn’t know that the oral vaccine could be transmitted person to person. I guess that’s why it went obsolete so quickly.

  70. #70 lilady
    July 16, 2011

    @ Dumber than Dumb Troll Thingy: Now instead of being fixated on “terminal disinfection”…which by the way is part of “Standard Precautions” (blood and body fluid precautions) you now state that “Standard Precautions” are sufficient to prevent transmission of measles in a health care setting. Dumb Troll did you ever hear of “Transmission Based Precautions”, among them “Contact Precautions” and “Airborne Precautions”?

    (hint) Measles is transmitted by droplet nuclei and “Airborne Precautions” are implemented by hospital staff for suspect and confirmed cases of measles. Obviously, you didn’t read the CDC Guidelines that I provided to you…or perhaps they were too difficult for you to understand.

    And Thingy, don’t let the door hit you on your Troll posterior on the way out.

  71. #71 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    July 16, 2011

    Thingy’s affect has changed considerably just in this thread. She used to come off as just completely spaced out, in her own little dream world, emitting meaningless word salad and smiling happily. Notice now she’s becoming increasingly exasperated. She won’t even repeat her previous imbecilities—she just refers back to them, saying: “Read 192” or “Read 215” as mantras. We do, and they’re totally content-free, but they make her feel less uneasy, as if they dealt with the reality she refuses to accept.

    I guarantee that before you guys started taking her to school, she had no idea how long the measles virus hung around in the air where infected people had been, or how long they were infectious before any symptoms appeared. She thought she could distinguish “poxy” people from good, clean, uninfected people with pure bodily fluids, like her—and all she had to do was “shun” them.

    She also thought that measles was a trivial childhood ailment, because that’s what it was treated as on documentaries like Leave it to Beaver, her sources of historical knowledge. She had no idea of the rate of serious complications or death that prevailed in the “everybody got it” era. Now she’s scared to death; she knows her movement is on track to make measles endemic again; that means she’s going to catch them, and she can’t deal with it.

    She’s angry now; she’s going to become increasingly angry and incoherent, and then either go away where her nose can’t be rubbed in the facts or go through some kind of Starfart meltdown right before our eyes. It’s hoping for the latter that keeps me reading her idiotic tripe. I know it’s wrong to make fun of the mentally ill, but it’s a type of mental illness that’s doing untold harm right now, and anyway, if she’s going to implode right here on RI, I’d hate to miss it.

  72. #72 Todd W.
    July 16, 2011

    @Politicalguineapig

    I didn’t know that the oral vaccine could be transmitted person to person. I guess that’s why it went obsolete so quickly.

    Well, it’s a bit more complex with something like the oral polio vaccine. Of all vaccines, OPV is one of the few that is as close to 100% effective as you can get. In locations where polio is widespread and where vaccine delivery is difficult, OPV works quite well. Immunize one household member with it, and there’s a good chance that other household contacts will be exposed to the vaccine strain, as well, thereby also gaining immunity. The risk, though, is that it reverts to a virulent form and, instead of just granting immunity, actually causes a full-blown infection.

    In the U.S., once polio was mostly eliminated, the risks of OPV outweighed the benefits, and the switch was made to the slightly less effective but far safer (no risk of polio from the vaccine) inactivated polio vaccine.

    This is becoming an issue in some of the few countries where polio can still be found. Vaccination rates are not quite high enough, giving the vaccine strain ample opportunity to mutate to virulence. There’s a lot of discussion around whether to make the switch to one of the IPVs, but since they are less effective, there is concern that they will not be able to wipe out polio (IIRC, there are 3 or 4 IPV versions, one containing 3 polio serotypes and then versions that only containing 1 serotype each).

  73. #73 Th1Th2
    July 16, 2011

    lilady,

    Now instead of being fixated on “terminal disinfection”…which by the way is part of “Standard Precautions” (blood and body fluid precautions) you now state that “Standard Precautions” are sufficient to prevent transmission of measles in a health care setting. Dumb Troll did you ever hear of “Transmission Based Precautions”, among them “Contact Precautions” and “Airborne Precautions”?

    Now here’s the mirror of the past.

    Notice how Thingy lilady always changes the subject, re-invents and re-interprets other postings and goes off on tangents whenever he/she/it finds itself boxed in…typical troll-like behaviors.

    Now I will have to doubt that you know the definition of Standard Precaution (Hint: Neither terminal disinfection nor TBP is part of Standard Precaution) In fact, only a few hospital rooms are negative pressure isolation rooms and you’re the only dumb nurse who wears N95 all the time.

    (hint) Measles is transmitted by droplet nuclei and “Airborne Precautions” are implemented by hospital staff for suspect and confirmed cases of measles.

    I know how the measles is spread and I also know that there exist an incompetent and lazy nurse named lilady who would just close off the door for two hours after the measles-infected patient has left the room.

  74. #74 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 16, 2011

    I know how the measles is spread and I also know that there exist an incompetent and lazy nurse named lilady who would just close off the door for two hours after the measles-infected patient has left the room.

    Note how Thingy actually recognizes that her own behavior is inadequate but tries to rewrite reality and displace her own flaws onto someone else. Nothing lilady said indicated that any precaution she spoke of was the only precaution she would take. On the contrary, it’s been Thingy all along who’s been saying “You just have to exercise this magic ‘due diligence’ and it gives you risk-free protection against measles.” I suppose it says something that Thingy can at least recognize the flaws of her own thinking, even if frantic denial keeps her from recognizing it in her own thinking.

  75. #75 Th1Th2
    July 16, 2011

    Antaeus,

    Note how Thingy actually recognizes that her own behavior is inadequate but tries to rewrite reality and displace her own flaws onto someone else. Nothing lilady said indicated that any precaution she spoke of was the only precaution she would take.

    Read #262. She specifically excluded terminal disinfection as an essential part of the recommendation. She denies it, she can’t define it, she confuses it with something else, and she never practiced it. Therefore, lilady is a complete troll who also happen to be an ignorant, lazy, negligent and dangerous ol’ nurse.

  76. #76 Th1Th2
    July 16, 2011

    Todd W.,

    Of all vaccines, OPV is one of the few that is as close to 100% effective infectiveas you can get.

    You sounded more like a salesperson to me. Oh I see because you’re an infection-promoter and you provide them with infectious OPV.

    In locations where polio is widespread and where vaccine delivery is difficult, OPV works quite well.

    Tactic employed to make sure OPV will not be in the position to be the sole cause of paralytic polio when they can always blame the wildtype poliolovirus where available. Nice. Now, let’s bring OPV back in the US soil and see what would happen. Anyway, polio is just a plane ride away right?

    Immunize Infect one household member with it, and there’s a good chance that other household contacts will be exposed to the vaccine strain, as well, thereby also gaining immunity contracting the disease

    You do realize that you’re also on the side of pox party people whose same rituals are also the one you detest, don’t you? Quite a salesperson you are.

    The risk, though, is that it reverts to a virulent form and, instead of just granting immunity, actually causes a full-blown infection.

    It does not take to have a paralysis to suffice a polio diagnosis. The mere fact you’re inoculating them with the virus is already the start of an infectious process. OPV does not grant immunity (that’s submission to poliovirus, not resistance) instead it makes everyone acquire the infection.

    Vaccination rates are not quite high enough, giving the vaccine strain ample opportunity to mutate to virulence.

    Haha. Ridiculous assumption. Here’s a basic fact: The more people gets inoculated with OPV the more of a chance VDPV and VAPP will thrive for the OPV is the only cause of VDPV and the only reason why VDPV still pursues.

  77. #77 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    July 16, 2011

    Twat1Twat2, shut the fuck up, and piss off somewhere else with your shitty little mind (such as you even have a ‘mind’), and splurge your shit over there. You have nothing useful to say, and you have no clue what you’re talking about. All you’re doing here is showing how stupid people like you are. You’re the perfect anti-advertisment for your ’cause’ – such as it is one.

    You are obviously the waste of what should have been a good wank for your father.

  78. #78 Heliantus
    July 16, 2011

    @ Politicalguineapig

    I’m a rank amatur compared to you guys, so I wasn’t too sure of my facts.

    I had some training in microbiology, but it’s getting dusty, so my facts are a bit fuzzy, too. I am refreshing my knowledge on this site and reading linked articles.
    And don’t be afraid to ask questions. As my teachers said, there is no such thing as a stupid question (on the other and, there could be dishonest questions and answers, as experienced daily in these threads…).

    @ Todd

    Well, it’s a bit more complex with something like the oral polio vaccine.

    Yes, I totally agree. I tried to keep my wall of text short, and ended being simplistic.
    I should have at least added that person-to-person transmission of the live attenuated virus is not necessarily a bad thing, as it will provide a modicum of vaccination.

    I personally liked the passage quoted by Lawrence:
    “Since WHO and partners began their attempt to rid the world of polio in 1988, officials have slashed the disease’s incidence by more than 99%”

  79. #79 lilady
    July 16, 2011

    @ Todd W.: I posted in a prior post about tracking polio cases world wide…I believe when another troll “alleged” that there were thousands of VAPP (vaccine acquired paralytic polio) cases.

    The way to track “real time” polio cases worldwide is through the:

    Polio Global Eradication Initiative

    YTD (July 13, 2011) wild polio cases: 252

    YTD Circulating Vaccine Derived Polio Virus cases (cVDP2): 15

    The 15 cVDP2 cases were confirmed in Nigeria (9 cases), Somalia (5 cases) and Afghanistan (1 case).

    Scientists, Researchers and Epidemiologist are involved in meetings constantly to monitor the number of cases in endemic areas of the world and the numbers/location of cVDP2 cases to decide when it would be appropriate to stop the use of OPV completely. Reports of those conferences are available on the Polio Global Eradication Initiative website.

    The New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) published an interesting article about this goal as we approach the time when the scourge of polio is wiped off the face on the earth, available at:

    NEJM Health Policy and Reform-The Polio Endgame (June 15,2011)

    Thingy is still around making inane comments and nasty remarks; typical for he/she/it. Notice how he/she/it changes the topic once again to his/her/its expertise on polio. I was hoping “the door” did hit his/her/its posterior on the way out.

    (Dumber than Dumb Troll)

  80. #80 Krebiozen
    July 16, 2011

    OPV does not grant immunity (that’s submission to poliovirus, not resistance) instead it makes everyone acquire the infection.

    What a very strange assertion. Of course OPV grants immunity, very effectively, as Todd wrote. How can you continue spouting this nonsense in the face of such a dramatic reduction in cases of paralytic polio? Only one case in the whole of Asia this year so far!

    OPV reverts to wild in about 1 in a million cases, but you make it sound as if it always does. You’re like the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, refusing to admit you have been defeated in the face of overwhelming evidence.

    And do you think everyone who is given OPV has polio for the rest of their lives since they have “submitted to the virus”? I suppose that means I have polio from having the OPV as well as hepatitis B, cholera, typhoid, tetanus and yellow fever (among other diseases) from vaccination. It’s astonishing I’m still alive, considering how many life-threatening disease I’ve been infected with.

  81. #81 TBruce
    July 16, 2011

    lilady:

    The kind thing to do is to hope “the door” hits Thingy’s head on the way out. Less damage.

  82. #82 lilady
    July 16, 2011

    @ TBruce: Hmm, perhaps so…but I was thinking about the locus of Thingy’s intellect…presently. I suspect the Troll’s posterior is where he/she/it pulls the factoids from.

  83. #83 Th1Th2
    July 16, 2011

    Krebiozen,

    What a very strange assertion.

    It’s a fact. There is evidence and you cannot deny something that exist.

    Of course OPV grants immunity, very effectively, as Todd wrote.

    Now that’s what you call an assertion. You just merely take things at face value. Could you explain how OPV grants immunity against infection without causing infection?

    How can you continue spouting this nonsense in the face of such a dramatic reduction in cases of paralytic polio? Only one case in the whole of Asia this year so far!

    Oh please stop being so dramatic you could win an Oscar. Only less than 0.5% of all poliomyelitis cases leads to paralysis.

    OPV reverts to wild in about 1 in a million cases, but you make it sound as if it always does.

    Well, it should. Are you doubting the efficacy of OPV in causing secondary transmission? In fact, that’s the main goal of OPV administration. Apart from inducing primary poliomyelitis infection to the host, the vaccine-type virus MUST be able to successfully transmit the infection to other susceptible contacts. Oh yeah let’s have a polio party baby! Oh BTW, the OPV does NOT revert to wild-type form bozo. Instead, the OPV mutates back to circulation as another monster called VDPV which is genetically different from wild-type poliovirus. Yup instead of just one circulating poliovirus dancing in the wild, you infection-promoting freaks created a dance partner in crime.

    And do you think everyone who is given OPV has polio for the rest of their lives since they have “submitted to the virus”?

    Everyone who got inoculated were infected with poliovirus. And the evidence of the disease will remain for the rest of their lives. Sorry to disappoint but you are no longer naive to polio. You’ve been harassed one to many.

    I suppose that means I have polio from having the OPV as well as hepatitis B, cholera, typhoid, tetanus and yellow fever (among other diseases) from vaccination.

    I don’t think you can deny the evidence you had received.

    It’s astonishing I’m still alive, considering how many life-threatening disease I’ve been infected with.

    It’s astonishing infectious diseases are not automatic death sentence as you have portrayed them to be.

  84. #84 JohnV
    July 16, 2011

    “Now that’s what you call an assertion. You just merely take things at face value. Could you explain how OPV grants immunity against infection without causing infection?”

    We’ve been over this. But you’re too stupid, dishonest and quite frankly, probably tweaking too hard to realize it.

  85. #85 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 16, 2011

    OPV does not grant immunity (that’s submission to poliovirus, not resistance) instead it makes everyone acquire the infection.

    What a very strange assertion. Of course OPV grants immunity, very effectively, as Todd wrote. How can you continue spouting this nonsense in the face of such a dramatic reduction in cases of paralytic polio? Only one case in the whole of Asia this year so far!

    K., it’s just Thingy’s idiotic refusal to acknowledge that there is a significant difference between actual wild-type infection and the ‘infection’ that comes from vaccination (the ‘infection’ that Thingy thinks you can get from dead viruses, or even from second- and third-generation vaccines that have never been in contact with the actual infectious agent.)

    To use the familiar seatbelt analogy, it’s like Thingy is using the word “collision” to refer to both going through the windshield at high speed during a car crash, and to the slight pressure one feels across the hips when putting a lap-belt in place. To people in touch with basic reality, putting on a lap-belt is what prevents the horrible damage that results from a collision; in the topsy-turvy world of Thingy, though, putting on a seatbelt is “submission to collision, not resistance.”

  86. #86 Narad
    July 16, 2011

    Only less than 0.5% of all poliomyelitis cases leads to paralysis.

    This is irrelevant by your very own standards. The question is where the paralytic cases have gone and, if a consequence of vaccination (sorry, “infection”), why your prescription of ritual purity is or would have been a superior option.

  87. #87 Todd W.
    July 16, 2011

    I’m not sure whether to find it amusing or simply sad that Thingy would suggest I’d be in favor of bringing OPV back. Apparently she missed the part where I said that in the U.S., due to polio’s eradication, the risk of adverse events from OPV outweighs any benefits that might be derived from it.

    Then again, reading comprehension was never her strong forté.

  88. #88 Krebiozen
    July 17, 2011

    It’s a fact. There is evidence and you cannot deny something that exist.

    You wrote “OPV does not grant immunity”, but that’s simply not true. Numerous studies have shown that it does, both by measuring antibody titers and by looking at rates of infection by the wild virus after OPV. Getting wild-type polio grants immunity too, assuming you survive it. I would greatly prefer the OPV to polio though.

    Could you explain how OPV grants immunity against infection without causing infection?

    Where has anyone suggested that it doesn’t cause infection? You seem very confused indeed about this. It’s an infection so mild that the majority of people don’t notice anything but minor symptoms like tiredness or irritability.

    Oh please stop being so dramatic you could win an Oscar. Only less than 0.5% of all poliomyelitis cases leads to paralysis.

    You really don’t understand that 0.5% of a very large number of people is a large number of people? This reminds me of Father Ted explaining to Father Dougal how far away things look small. There are 4 billion people living in Asia. If only 1% of them was infected with polio, you would expect 200,000 people to suffer paralysis. A small percentage of a big number is a big number, get it?

    There were 1,997 cases of paralytic polio reported in 2006, many of them in Asia. A reduction to only one case in the whole of Asia five years later is extraordinary. What’s dramatic about stating that? I have been to India and Africa and seen the effects of polio for myself. Anything that reduces the incidence of such a horrible disease can only be a good thing.

    OPV reverts to wild in about 1 in a million cases, but you make it sound as if it always does.

    Well, it should.

    It “should” mutate into a virulent form? Whatever do you mean by that? It’s a fact that it very rarely does, and unfortunate that it ever does. You seem to think that leaving the wild virus alone to kill and maim is better than a 1 in a million chance of this happening (I think it’s actually between 1 in a 500,000 and 1 in 750,000 since we’re being pedantic).

    Oh BTW, the OPV does NOT revert to wild-type form bozo.

    OK, it mutates to a form that has the same virulence as the wild-type virus, if you insist on being pedantic. You know perfectly well what I meant.

    one circulating poliovirus dancing in the wild

    You make it sound like a beautiful wild creature. It’s not.

    Everyone who got inoculated were infected with poliovirus. And the evidence of the disease will remain for the rest of their lives. Sorry to disappoint but you are no longer naive to polio. You’ve been harassed one to many.

    The only evidence of the disease is that my immune system is primed to produce antibodies if I’m ever exposed to polio in the future. Why would I be disappointed by that? I’m delighted!

    I don’t think you can deny the evidence you had received.

    I don’t know what you mean. I was injected (or sucked on a sugar lump), had no reaction at all, and then went to countries where these diseases are endemic but didn’t catch any of them. That’s the only evidence I “received”.

    It’s astonishing infectious diseases are not automatic death sentence as you have portrayed them to be.

    No one has claimed any of these diseases are an automatic death sentence, as you well know. You can look up the mortality of each of them treated or untreated, if you are interested. According to you I have survived infection with hepatitis B, cholera, typhoid, tetanus, yellow fever, and TB (forgot that earlier), not only without dying, but without experiencing any noticeable symptoms at all, apart from a sore arm.

  89. #89 lilady
    July 17, 2011

    @ Todd W: Of course it is all too complicated for Thingy…but the Polio Global Eradication Initiative “Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV) Cessation, provides some details about the proposed timeline to eliminate the use of OPV worldwide.

    Just to clarify there are several categories of OPV diseases:

    Vaccine Associated Paralytic Polio (VAPP) when the recipient of the vaccine becomes ill with polio

    Circulating Vaccine Derived Polio Virus (cVDPV) secondary transmission of the polio virus

    Immunodeficiency Related Vacine Derived Polio Virus (iVDPV)

    It is debatable if Thingy is over the age of 11, but if Thingy is beyond that age then he/she/it started the polio series of vaccines with OPV, then completed the series with IPV. OPV use in the United States was totally discontinued in 2000.

    And, unless Thingy was home/cave-schooled he/she/it received at a minimum DTP, MMR and polio vaccines. Now we know that Thingy never went beyond high school and therefore never had to have “catch-up” immunizations required for higher education.

    I suppose Thingy is hoping for more civil unrest and wars in polio-endemic countries…which in fact delayed the worldwide goal of total polio eradication, by the year 2000. What a worthless POS and public health menace this Thingy is.

  90. #90 Narad
    July 17, 2011

    It is debatable if Thingy is over the age of 11, but if Thingy is beyond that age then he/she/it started the polio series of vaccines with OPV, then completed the series with IPV. OPV use in the United States was totally discontinued in 2000.

    It’s not a native English speaker. It could well be unimmunized.

  91. #91 Cynthia of Syracuse
    July 17, 2011

    More facts for Thingummy to ignore/misunderstand/misrepresent:

    http://www.gpnotebook.co.uk/simplepage.cfm?ID=1161101367&linkID=19323&cook=no

    Periods of infectivity for some common infections are listed:

    * mumps: 3 days before salivary gland swelling to 7 days after

    * chicken pox: a few days before the onset of rash develops and not more than six days after first lesions appear (1)

    * measles: from the appearance of prodromal symptoms to 4 days after the onset of the rash

    * rubella: one week before onset of rash until 4 days after

    * whooping cough: one week after exposure until 3 weeks after onset of symptoms (but only 7 days if antibiotics given)

    * scarlet fever: 10-21 days after the rash onset (but only five days if penicillin given) (2)

    * slapped cheek disease: for up to 14 days before the onset of the rash. A child is no longer infectious once the rash has appeared

    Reference:

    * (1) Institute for Child Health, Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children NHS Trust.
    * (2) Health Protection Agency (Accessed 20/12/07): Scarlet Fever

    http://www.gpnotebook.co.uk/simplepage.cfm?ID=1657798720

    The incubation period of a disease refers to the time between contact with a carrier of the disease and development of symptoms. It does not refer to the time to infectivity, which in many instances is much shorter.

    The incubation periods of infectious diseases is dealt with under the specific diseases. However, for ease of reference and for exam revision, the following summary details the diseases in the order of vaccination against them:

    * diphtheria, 1 to 7 days
    * tetanus, 24 hours to 24 days
    * pertussis, 7 to 14 days
    * polio, 7 to 14 days
    * measles, 8 to 14 days, with encephalitis 7 to 10 days after symptoms develop
    * mumps, 16 to 21 days
    * rubella, 14 to 21 days
    * chicken pox, 14 to 21 days, with a cerebellar encephalitis 3 to 4 days after symptoms develop
    * fifth disease, 6 to 14 days

    The ranges represent the extremes of presentation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subclinical_infection

    The following pathogens (together with their symptomatic illnesses) are known to be carried asymptomatically, often in a large percentage of the potential host population:

    * Bordetella pertussis (Pertussis or whooping cough)[4]
    * Chlamydia pneumoniae[5]
    * Chlamydia trachomatis (Chlamydia)[6][7][8]
    * Clostridium difficile[9]
    * Cyclospora cayetanensis[10]
    * dengue virus[11]
    * Dientamoeba fragilis[12]
    * Entamoeba histolytica[13]
    * enterotoxigenic Escherichia coli[14]
    * Epstein-Barr virus[15]
    * Group A streptococcal infection[16]
    * Helicobacter pylori[17]
    * Herpes simplex (oral herpes, genital herpes, etc.)[18]
    * HIV-1 (AIDS)[19]
    * Legionella pneumophila (Legionnaires’ disease)[20]
    * measles viruses[21]
    * Mycobacterium leprae (leprosy)[22]
    * Mycobacterium tuberculosis (tuberculosis)[23]
    * Neisseria gonorrhoeae (gonorrhoea)[6][7]
    * Neisseria meningitidis (Meningitis) [24]
    * nontyphoidal Salmonella[25]
    * noroviruses[26]
    * Poliovirus (Poliomyelitis)
    * rhinoviruses (Common cold)[27]
    * Salmonella enterica serovar Typhi (Typhoid fever)[28]
    * Staphylococcus aureus[29]
    * Streptococcus pneumoniae (Bacterial pneumonia)[30]
    * Treponema pallidum (syphilis)[31]

  92. #92 Th1Th2
    July 17, 2011

    Antaeus,

    K., it’s just Thingy’s idiotic refusal to acknowledge that there is a significant difference between actual wild-type infection and the ‘infection’ that comes from vaccination

    You sound like a broken record or simply dylexic. When will you ever learn? Read #114. No mouse wheel? No problem.

    The immune response to a live attenuated vaccine is virtually identical to that produced by a natural infection. The immune system does not differentiate between an infection with a weakened vaccine virus and an infection with a wild virus.

    I’m not even a native English speaker.

    To people in touch with basic reality, putting on a lap-belt is what prevents the horrible damage that results from a collision; in the topsy-turvy world of Thingy, though, putting on a seatbelt is “submission to collision, not resistance.”

    Again the seatbelt analogy to the rescue when they can’t explain Science thus avoid getting humiliated. Gee whiz. I’m not even a native English speaker. Now if you’re going to use the seatbelt analogy then you have to prove that everyone who drives and uses seatbelt must submit themselves to collision (in parallel where OPV recipients were deliberately made to submit to poliovirus), otherwise, you’re just recycling old crap all over again and ends in the usual epic failure.

  93. #93 Th1Th2
    July 17, 2011

    Narad,

    This is irrelevant by your very own standards. The question is where the paralytic cases have gone and, if a consequence of vaccination (sorry, “infection”), why your prescription of ritual purity is or would have been a superior option.

    Because there are smart people on Earth who happen to choose not to play around with poliovirus. Do you have any problem with that when they opted not to get infected with poliovirus especially with your infection-promoting agenda?

  94. #94 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 17, 2011

    Since the option of “due diligence” which reduces the risk of infection to 0% is nothing but the delusion of a mentally ill person, we have to decide between the options which actually exist in the real world. So far the Thing-troll has not offered any sort of plausible reasoning why “hide your head in the sand and pretend you could never encounter a wild virus” would be a better option than “prime your immune system.”

  95. #95 Lawrence
    July 17, 2011

    Idiot troll is impossible to deal with – since she lives in a world completely of her own delusion, with definitions that don’t jive with the understanding of anyone else on the planet.

    Somehow, despite the fact that we live in a world where pathogens are impossible to avoid, she believes that somehow, just by using “common sense” she’d be able to avoid ever being infected with anything.

    Avoiding the inconvenient fact that pathogens have evolved over thousands (or perhaps even millions) of years to replicate themselves – meaning infect and continue tthe chain of infection as long as possible. Modern medical science has allowed us the opportunity to avoid the full-fledge and potentially deadly infection from a variety of diseases (measles, mumps, polio, rubella, and of course, Smallpox – which was eradicated due to the WHO effort) – but idiot troll continues to spew its own version of how infection works.

    And if idiot troll is so smart – what would she do, if in fact she did come down with an infectious disease?

  96. #96 Krebiozen
    July 17, 2011

    there are smart people on Earth who happen to choose not to play around with poliovirus

    Not smart enough to come up with a coherent explanation of how to avoid infection, evidently.

    The truth is is you leech off other people who vaccinate. Without us you would get infected just like everyone else.

  97. #97 Heliantus
    July 17, 2011

    @ Cynthia of Syracuse

    Thanks for the lists. I’m gonna copy your post for self-reference, I need a reminder.

    @ Antaeus Feldspar

    So far the Thing-troll has not offered any sort of plausible reasoning why “hide your head in the sand and pretend you could never encounter a wild virus” would be a better option than “prime your immune system.”

    Indeed. Some 160 posts above, when it started to shout “Unlike you, they are not playing around with rubella virus”.
    I was tempted to answer something on the following lines, but I gave up.

    We are all playing with viruses. Some of us play sparring partners – let’s pick a tame virus or even better a mere training dummy (some dead germ bits), and let’s see if we can kick it square in the jaws. We have mixed successes, some of us got wounded in the process, but at least the majority of us get some training they can apply for when they encounter the wild germ.
    Some others play hide-and-seek. Often, it amounts to “Let’s put a towel on our head and hope the virus will decide that, if we cannot see it, it cannot see us”.

  98. #98 Th1Th2
    July 17, 2011

    Krebiozen,

    You wrote “OPV does not grant immunity”, but that’s simply not true.

    OPV is a vaccine- a pathogenic preparation. It does not contain immunoglobulins. Hence, you’re acquiring the infectious poliovirus.

    Numerous studies have shown that it does, both by measuring antibody titers and by looking at rates of infection by the wild virus after OPV. Getting wild-type polio grants immunity too, assuming you survive it.

    That is just measuring the immune response against the infection that you have acquired either from natural infection or from the vaccine. It just means that an infection has occurred.

    Where has anyone suggested that it doesn’t cause infection? You seem very confused indeed about this. It’s an infection so mild that the majority of people don’t notice anything but minor symptoms like tiredness or irritability.

    More than 99% of polio cases range from asymptomatic to nonparalytic events. Of course, these numbers were derived from the unvaccinated. So how many from the vaccinated were deliberately excluded from the diagnosis? The number will be astronomical.

    You really don’t understand that 0.5% of a very large number of people is a large number of people?

    How about 0% if people would just opt out? What are you going to do now? Spin the cylinder again?

    It “should” mutate into a virulent form? Whatever do you mean by that? It’s a fact that it very rarely does, and unfortunate that it ever does. You seem to think that leaving the wild virus alone to kill and maim is better than a 1 in a million chance of this happening (I think it’s actually between 1 in a 500,000 and 1 in 750,000 since we’re being pedantic).

    That OPV should cause poliomyelitis. It is a must.

    OK, it mutates to a form that has the same virulence as the wild-type virus, if you insist on being pedantic. You know perfectly well what I meant.

    A different creature you guys created.

    You make it sound like a beautiful wild creature. It’s not.

    And neither does a VDPV.

    The only evidence of the disease is that my immune system is primed to produce antibodies if I’m ever exposed to polio in the future. Why would I be disappointed by that? I’m delighted!

    That’s not unusual since the immune system would be more quicker and more effective upon re-exposure or re-infection. Like I said, I’m sorry to disappoint but you are no longer naive. You’ve been breached. I am happy because I still remain uninfected and unexposed while you’ve already had primary infection with polio. Primed it is.

    I don’t know what you mean. I was injected (or sucked on a sugar lump), had no reaction at all, and then went to countries where these diseases are endemic but didn’t catch any of them. That’s the only evidence I “received”.

    I could get a sugar cube from the pantry right now but will it work?

    No one has claimed any of these diseases are an automatic death sentence, as you well know.

    I wouldn’t be too sure about that.

    You advocate not vaccinating. If people actually listened to you in great numbers, people would die. Far, far more than if vaccination stayed at current levels. Posted by: CG | July 13, 2011 5:18 PM

    Thingy, get it through your head—the rest of us think that getting “infected” with attenuated or dead “germs” so that our immune system will be primed to deal with real, wild-type infections is a damn good idea, because we don’t want to die of a preventable disease.Posted by: The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge Author Profile Page | June 9, 2011 6:02 PM

    According to you I have survived infection with hepatitis B, cholera, typhoid, tetanus, yellow fever, and TB (forgot that earlier), not only without dying, but without experiencing any noticeable symptoms at all, apart from a sore arm.

    You’ve had primary infection with those diseases. Since you claimed that vaccination grants immunity, why don’t you re-infect yourself the same manner you received those vaccines. This time with live components.

  99. #99 Th1Th2
    July 17, 2011

    Antaeus,

    Since the option of “due diligence” which reduces the risk of infection to 0% is nothing but the delusion of a mentally ill person, we have to decide between the options which actually exist in the real world. So far the Thing-troll has not offered any sort of plausible reasoning why “hide your head in the sand and pretend you could never encounter a wild virus” would be a better option than “prime your immune system.”

    “Prime your immune system”–Now I will have to doubt your credibility in immunology when you don’t even know what it essentially means. There are only two things that you force the unexposed and uninfected to get “primed”—either go to France or visit a doctor. Sorry, we don’t play your game.

  100. #100 The Christian Cynic
    July 17, 2011

    Thingy: You need some remediation in both reading comprehension and logic. The statement

    If people actually listened to you in great numbers, people would die.

    does not equal “automatic death sentence” (which is semantically equivalent to saying that death is inevitable). It means that death can occur (and, in larger populations, diseases will cause many deaths even if the mortality rate is reasonably low). Are you denying that death is even a possibility from any vaccine-preventable diseases?

    And the second quote you used is saying that since death is a possibility from diseases that can be prevented by vaccines, we should want to avoid those diseases by getting vaccinated for them. The possibility of death can be a motivator to get vaccinated, just as the possibility (not inevitability) of getting thrown from a car is often a motivator to wear a seatbelt.

    But I suppose you’ll respond by spouting off about how vaccines aren’t cars or some asinine objection that the non-certifiable will recognize as idiocy.

  101. #101 Th1Th2
    July 17, 2011

    Krebiozen,

    The truth is is you leech off other people who vaccinate. Without us you would get infected just like everyone else.

    Ouch. Hold on to that stick Antaeus. Do it later.

    Herd immunity is not tied to vaccination. Herd immunity is a mathematical consequence of a sufficient percentage of the population possessing resistance to infection, no matter what the means by which that resistance is conferred. Posted by: Antaeus Feldspar | July 13, 2011 10:29 PM

    I told you it’s a myth.

  102. #102 Lawrence
    July 17, 2011

    Idiot troll – you are so dense, you make Lead envious.

  103. #103 Th1Th2
    July 17, 2011

    The Christian Cynic,

    does not equal “automatic death sentence” (which is semantically equivalent to saying that death is inevitable). It means that death can occur (and, in larger populations, diseases will cause many deaths even if the mortality rate is reasonably low).

    Haha. Of course, it is an automatic death sentence more so they have a death category just for vaccines alone called Vaccine-Preventable Death. (from: Vaccine Preventable Deaths and the Global Immunization Vision and Strategy, 2006–2015)

    Are you denying that death is even a possibility from any vaccine-preventable diseases?

    Vaccines have never prevented diseases in the first place. You started off with a wrong premise.

  104. #104 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 17, 2011

    No one has claimed any of these diseases are an automatic death sentence, as you well know.

    I wouldn’t be too sure about that.

    You advocate not vaccinating. If people actually listened to you in great numbers, people would die. Far, far more than if vaccination stayed at current levels. Posted by: CG | July 13, 2011 5:18 PM

    There’s no conflict between the statements Thingy quotes. Take an ordinary coin. What are the chances that, if flipped, it would come up heads? 50%, right? It is not, by any means, an automatic means of generating a heads. But flip a great number of coins, and the chances of not getting any heads vanishes fast.

    In just the same way, refusing to vaccinate against a deadly disease is not an automatic death sentence for any individual, but when a large number of people have made the decision to leave themselves vulnerable, it only takes the return of the infectious agent and deaths will follow.

  105. #105 Krebiozen
    July 17, 2011

    Th1Th2,
    I don’t think you believe half of the BS you spout here. Either that or “you’re a loony”, to quote Monty Python.

    You’ve been breached.

    So what? The only consequence is that I can travel to countries where polio still exists with very little fear of catching it. You can’t, and you are vulnerable to infection by anyone who gets off a plane with asymptomatic polio and prepares some food you happen to eat.

    Ouch. Hold on to that stick Antaeus. Do it later.

    Nothing I have written conflicts with what Antaeus has written. If no one vaccinated, infectious diseases would soon return to pre-vaccination levels. There would be no herd immunity and you would soon find that “due diligence” is useless in preventing infection.

    Claiming that herd immunity is a myth is just childish. Mathematical calculations and epidemiological evidence demonstrate that beyond reasonable doubt. “It’s a fact. There is evidence and you cannot deny something that exist.”

  106. #106 lilady
    July 17, 2011

    Thingy will continue to deny, continue to misquote and misinterpret…it is the nature of his/her/its mental illness. He/she/it has got to be the dumbest troll that we have ever encountered on RI. Stick a fork in him/her/it because he/she/it is done.

  107. #107 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 17, 2011

    Herd immunity is not tied to vaccination. Herd immunity is a mathematical consequence of a sufficient percentage of the population possessing resistance to infection, no matter what the means by which that resistance is conferred.

    It’s pathetic that Thingy can’t distinguish between simple propositions like “herd immunity results from vaccination” (true) and “herd immunity is not tied to vaccination” (also true.) Seriously, how could it be any easier to understand??

    The best scientific evidence has failed to identify any method that protects individuals against infectious diseases even nearly as well as vaccination. But if such a method did exist, a sufficient number of people in the population practicing it would create herd immunity!

    Thingy is idiotic enough when she tries to deny the massive base of evidence showing that vaccination does confer resistance to infection. But she reaches a whole new plateau of stupidity when she claims that herd immunity is a myth, because if her delusionary “due diligence” strategy actually worked, and a sufficient number of people employed it, it would create herd immunity! It’s a mathematical consequence; you don’t even need empirical evidence to figure it out! But, Thingy just feels that she has to disagree with everything, so she automatically rejects herd immunity, for the sole reason that the same people who are reality-based enough to recognize the benefits of vaccination also recognize the benefits of herd immunity.

  108. #108 Krebiozen
    July 17, 2011

    “I’m invincible!” “You’re a loony.”

  109. #109 Krebiozen
    July 17, 2011

    Herd immunity is a mathematical consequence of a sufficient percentage of the population possessing resistance to infection, no matter what the means by which that resistance is conferred.

    I hadn’t thought about it like that before, but a little thought reveals it’s self-evident. If 99% of the population walked around in air-tight suits with a filtered air breathing apparatus, the remaining 1% would be safe from infection, unless they were all clustered together in a community that believed that air-tight suits cause autism or something.

  110. #110 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    July 17, 2011

    Thingy’s obsession with “Purity of Essence” a la General Jack Ripper leads me to believe that she is either unaware, or due to some psychotic break has managed to shut out of her consciousness, that she’s “infected” with innumerable bacteria and viruses already, of any number of types. (Mostly E. coli, of course, but a lot of other kinds as well). Your immune system deals with them as appropriate.

    Thingy, here’s something to ponder—if you’re average, 90% of the cells in your body don’t even belong to you! Think about that. You’re not only “infected”, you’re outnumbered. You could get a vaccine against some new “pathogen” every day for the rest of your life and it wouldn’t be a drop in the bucket.

    Seriously, I’ve talked to hippy-dippy numbnuts who don’t know, and refuse to believe, that there was any such thing as radiation before 1945. Thingy’s mindset seems similar to me.

  111. #111 Heliantus
    July 17, 2011

    You’ve had primary infection with those diseases. Since you claimed that vaccination grants immunity, why don’t you re-infect yourself the same manner you received those vaccines. This time with live components.

    “This time with live components”. I was under the impression, from previous threads, that you were denying that vaccines made of dead germs were different from live germs. I actually perfectly remember that you stated many times that dead germs or proteins from pathogens will cause an infection the same way as does the live, wild-type germ.
    But here, you seem perfectly aware that you need “live components” to get a potentially harmful infection. Are you in any way consistent with yourself?

  112. #112 Th1Th2
    July 17, 2011

    Antaeus,

    It’s pathetic that Thingy can’t distinguish between simple propositions like “herd immunity infection results from vaccination” (true) and “herd immunity is not tied to vaccination” (also NOT true.) Seriously, how could it be any easier to understand??

    Blasphemy!

    Herd immunity applies to immunisation or infection,[…] Herd immunity and herd effect: new insights and definitions.

    The best scientific evidence has failed to identify any method that protects individuals against infectious diseases even nearly as well as vaccination. But if such a method did exist, a sufficient number of people in the population practicing it would create herd immunity!

    Are the unvaccinated and uninfected part of herd immunity? Or do you consider them like parasites who “leech off other people who vaccinate”?

    Thingy is idiotic enough when she tries to deny the massive base of evidence showing that vaccination does confer resistance to infection.

    In fact, you even check for it through antibody titers.

    But she reaches a whole new plateau of stupidity when she claims that herd immunity is a myth, because if her delusionary “due diligence” strategy actually worked, and a sufficient number of people employed it, it would create herd immunity! uneventful, ordinary days.

    First off, I do not associate myself as part of a herd. So how did you get branded? Do you still carry the indelible mark? Seriously, don’t get too serious.

    It’s a mathematical consequence; you don’t even need empirical evidence to figure it out!

    Just like I said. It’s a myth. There’s no Math involved, just your faith—a nonthinking process. You don’t even know how to count for goodness sake.

  113. #113 Th1Th2
    July 17, 2011

    Krebiozen,

    So what? The only consequence is that I can travel to countries where polio still exists with very little fear of catching it. You can’t, and you are vulnerable to infection by anyone who gets off a plane with asymptomatic polio and prepares some food you happen to eat.

    Catching what? You’ve had it already when you were vaccinated. Yeah so what? At least it will leave me a reason to doubt that I will encounter polio by exercising due diligence.

    Nothing I have written conflicts with what Antaeus has written. If no one vaccinated, infectious diseases would soon return to pre-vaccination levels. There would be no herd immunity and you would soon find that “due diligence” is useless in preventing infection.

    You: “Getting wild-type polio grants immunity too,”

    Antaeus: “Herd immunity…a sufficient percentage of the population possessing resistance to infection, no matter what the means by which that resistance is conferred.”

    You: “If no one vaccinated, infectious diseases would soon return to pre-vaccination levels. There would be no herd immunity.

    It sure is a myth. Too many versions it turns into a superstitious belief.

  114. #114 Narad
    July 17, 2011

    Because there are smart people on Earth who happen to choose not to play around with poliovirus. Do you have any problem with that when they opted not to get infected with poliovirus especially with your infection-promoting agenda?

    Let’s reexamine that to which this is a putative response:

    This [“Only less than 0.5% of all poliomyelitis cases leads to paralysis”] is irrelevant by your very own standards. The question is where the paralytic cases have gone and, if a consequence of vaccination (sorry, “infection”), why your prescription of ritual purity is or would have been a superior option.

    The only thing that your reply seems to be be able to refer to is the question why your prescription is or would have been better. And your answer is “because there are smart people on Earth”? I believe the term is “nonresponsive,” Th1Th2, aside from just the part of skipping the bit about where the paralytic cases have gone.

  115. #115 Th1Th2
    July 17, 2011

    Heliantus,

    I actually perfectly remember that you stated many times that dead germs or proteins from pathogens will cause an infection the same way as does the live, wild-type germ.

    No. Your memory is poor. Killed vaccines, unlike live ones, cause non-transmissible infections.

  116. #116 dedicated lurker
    July 17, 2011

    I am very temped to find Thingy and cough in its general direction. Should be interesting.

  117. #117 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 18, 2011

    You: “Getting wild-type polio grants immunity too,”

    Antaeus: “Herd immunity…a sufficient percentage of the population possessing resistance to infection, no matter what the means by which that resistance is conferred.”

    You: “If no one vaccinated, infectious diseases would soon return to pre-vaccination levels. There would be no herd immunity.

    What. A. Moron.

    Seriously, can even Thingy be this stupid? She can’t, can she? She must surely realize that the only scenario in which what Krebiozen wrote would be inconsistent with what I wrote is one where “herd immunity” is achieved because the wild-type infection that herd immunity is desired to prevent against has already successfully attacked and afflicted the majority of the population. Yeah, that’s a brilliant goal: make sure 80-86% of the population gets wild-type polio, and then herd immunity will start providing protection to the 10-14% who haven’t caught it yet! And she has the nerve to call any of us “infection-promoters”?

    It’s not any less stupid if she had no intention of suggesting that herd immunity brought about by this means was desirable, because then her only purpose in raising the point was to be a nit-picking dick. There is no redeeming value to nit-picking dicks. “We’d better evacuate; there’s no way we can guarantee that our houses won’t be burned by the wildfire if the wind blows it this way.” “Oh yes there is, Mr. Smarty Pants! We can burn down our houses ourselves! That would absolutely guarantee that the wildfire couldn’t burn them down! Didn’t think of that, did you? But I did! See how much smarter I am than you?” And the nit-picking dick actually does think that they look smarter than the person they ‘corrected.’ They don’t realize that a person who is successfully focusing on the important issues looks a lot smarter than a dolt who is ignoring the important issues to play playground power games.

  118. #118 Th1Th2
    July 18, 2011

    Narad,

    And your answer is “because there are smart people on Earth”?

    I’m pretty sure my answer did not stop there.

  119. #119 Narad
    July 18, 2011

    I’m pretty sure my answer did not stop there.

    Yes, I figured the remainder, “who happen to choose not to play around with poliovirus,” which simply an ornament on the self-reference, would be easily interpolated by anyone who had bothered to get this far.

  120. #120 Narad
    July 18, 2011

    ^ “which is simply”

  121. #121 Th1Th2
    July 18, 2011

    Antaeus,

    She must surely realize that the only scenario in which what Krebiozen wrote would be inconsistent with what I wrote is one where “herd immunity” is achieved because the wild-type infection that herd immunity is desired to prevent against has already successfully attacked and afflicted the majority of the population. Yeah, that’s a brilliant goal: make sure 80-86% of the population gets wild-type polio, and then herd immunity will start providing protection to the 10-14% who haven’t caught it yet! And she has the nerve to call any of us “infection-promoters”?

    “no matter what the means by which that resistance is conferred.”, that’s what you said about herd immunity. And Krebiozen clearly supports this idea–on how immunity is granted. Do you deny this? Both of you should talk. It’s getting obvious.

    There is no redeeming value to nit-picking dicks.

    Let’s just say you made a terrible faux pas. I told you it’s a myth.

  122. #122 lilady
    July 18, 2011

    Why the hell is anyone engage the Thingy? She lives in a nether land of her own making. It is paranoid, unable to carry on any cogent conversations and would not know truth from fiction if it smacked it in its face. You all are just feeding into her mental disorders…too numerous to mention. Just stick a fork in the Thingy…it is so burned and way beyond “done”. What a waste of time to play with this sick sick troll who is in desperate need of some sort of life outside of the cave…after it has some major therapy and some major anti-psychotic medications.

  123. #123 delurked lurker
    July 18, 2011

    Can’t agree more with lilady@321. Thingy has ceased to be amusing and just keeps going around in circles in a mentally deficient manner. The thing can’t even grasp the rudiments of basic science, I can’t see the value of arguing with an idiot.

  124. #124 Krebiozen
    July 18, 2011

    You’re right I’m sure Lilady, but I do want to say a bit more about epidemiology, as I find it fascinating. You never know Th1Th2 might learn something, though I doubt it.

    If you introduce an infectious disease into a naive population, as happened to Native Americans when Europeans arrived, there is an epidemic. Every person with the disease infects more than one other person, and the number of cases grows exponentially. Eventually enough of the population that has survived has adaptive immunity to the infection so that each person with the infection infects, on average, only one other person. At that point the disease declines and becomes endemic, and the number of cases stabilizes.

    If the average number of people an infected person infects drops below one, the disease will eventually die out in that population. That’s how smallpox was eradicated, by surveillance, isolation and vaccination which reduced the infection rate low enough that the disease died out globally.

    Without vaccination what tends to happen is that because there is a steady supply of non-immune people (aka children) an infection either becomes endemic and mostly affects children (like measles), or there is an epidemic, more and more people are infected until enough people are immune and the disease declines until the number of non-immune people is high enough for another epidemic to begin. That was the pattern for a number of contagious diseases before vaccination. Exactly how this works depends on a number of factors, including the size of the population, how contagious the disease is, how long a person is contagious, birth rate and death rate.

    The thing I find really fascinating is that all of this can be accurately modeled mathematically.

    It’s laughable that someone can deny the existence of something that is so well understood and has so much evidence to support it.

  125. #125 Krebiozen
    July 18, 2011

    Killjoys 😉
    Sometimes I find it interesting to look at how we know that Th1Th2 is wrong in her bizarre beliefs. I spent a couple of years studying microbiology, immunology, cell biology and genetics, but that was longer ago than I like to remember. I find it useful to look at some of the stuff I learned back then and see how things have developed since. I have a comment in moderation about epidemiology which came from reading about herd immunity thanks to Th1Th2’s claim that it is a myth.

  126. #126 Rubeola
    July 18, 2011

    Can anyone put together all of thithtwo’s ramblings in one document, so we can all have a good laugh?

  127. #127 myrna hamilton
    August 22, 2011

    Why not just give people the right to refuse on the bases that there have been cases where certain vaccines have caused severe adverse effect that were life threatening and health debilitating instead of forcing it down their throats. The drug companies are well protected by certain gov laws in being responsible for the known damages that these vaccines can cause. So why so we be forced to take them when we know what the risks are as they are clearly stated on the package inserts. Those of you who want to take those vaccines and take the risk, that is your choice but do not open your big mouths aganist the people who do not want to take the risk.

  128. #128 Chris
    August 22, 2011

    Ms. Hamilton, where in the USA are vaccines forced on people? How so? Even in the two states that do not allow religious exemption there are private schools and homeschooling.

    Also, yes, vaccines have caused adverse effects. Now please tell us exactly what the specific risks are from the MMR vaccine versus measles, mumps and rubella. Be sure to use real evidence, not random websites, news reports or studies from doctors who have had their license to practice medicine revoked or suspended, and definitely not Mercola nor Ratajczak.

    Thank you.

    Oh, and do you really own all of Yahoo.com? Because that is a weird URL for your own website.

  129. #129 Antaeus Feldspar
    August 22, 2011

    Myrna, please consider the following little thought experiment:

    Suppose the school your kids attend offers a special after-school program, where once a week the kids are driven to a museum, a theatre, a public garden, or other educational opportunity.  All that’s necessary for this program to continue is for enough of the parents to take turns doing the driving for the program; for bureaucratic reasons they can’t simply let the same parents drive over and over, but if most of the parents are willing to take a turn, the program can continue.

    Now imagine the program encounters serious trouble, because there’s suddenly a block of parents who have decided that driving for the program is too risky.  Since several of these parents obviously have no objection to driving themselves to tanning salons or bars, it’s inexplicable why they think driving to a museum should stand out in their minds as “risky,” but the idea’s in their heads and there’s no getting it out – and now there’s a big risk that the program will have to be stopped, because there aren’t enough parents left to take care of the driving.

    In such a situation, do you think that the parents who are actually taking their part of the responsibility by driving need to “shut their big mouths” about the parents who have sacrificed their children’s program, all because they suddenly perceived “driving to a museum” as a horribly risky activity?

    Now consider these two additional factors:

    1) There is far less likelihood of injury from getting a vaccine than from driving in a car; if it is silly to turn down all the benefits of driving because it is “too risky,” it is even sillier to turn down the benefits of vaccination because of an even lesser risk.

    2) The consequence when too many people abdicate their responsibility to vaccinate is worse than the consequence of too many people choosing not to take their turns driving.  No child will die if the after-school program gets cancelled, but every year children do die because the adults around them, who could have provided them protection by seeing to their own vaccinations, didn’t.  With the stakes even higher, it is even less defensible to say, “Well, I don’t care about the effect it has on youI am going to shirk this duty in order to avoid a risk that’s vanishingly small anyways.”

  130. #130 drbobbyk
    October 25, 2011

    may i recommend Calli Arcale (July 11 2011) and Krebozien (July 18 2011) for simply and intelligently stated posts, the former a nice concise explanation of some of the process involved in making vaccines. I wish we could ignore the folks who are clearly too dense to even think, but they are part of our reality and occasionally will even get elected to offices where thier ideas could prevail. So we gotta be diligent, teach our children well cause if they get to where they call the shots, we are in deep bad smelling stuff. You folks to whom I am referring disparagingly, I am sorry to have to be this way. It’s one thing to be skeptical, that’s a good thing, it’s another to exhibit such total obtuseness as to be scary. I will not engage you here, so don’t bother to reply. I have an open mind, but prefer to avoid wasting my time with non-thinkers. Let’s both practice “due diligence” and avoid even this remote contact.

  131. #131 Paula
    October 27, 2011

    I know people who have fallen for Mercola’s nonsense, and they use his misinformation to try and beat other people over the head with it. When I disagree with what they are saying, I am accused of being brainwashed by the government. He says jump, they automatically wonder how high, and any website that disagrees with him is government controlled, according to them. Welcome to the new religion……Mercolaism.

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