Respectful Insolence

Yesterday, I wrote about how two anti-vaccine activists, Barbara Loe Fisher and Joe Mercola, were unhappy that bloggers targeted their advertisement that they put on the CBS Times Square JumboTron for a letter-writing campaign to try to persuade CBS Outdoors to do the right thing and stop selling ad time to groups who promote a philosophy that is a threat to public health. Thats why I have to love it when by coincidence a paper is released that provides yet one more example of the benefits of vaccination. In this case, it even deals with one of the “lesser” vaccines. Well, it’s not really a “lesser” vaccine, but it the frequent victim of jeers and sneers from the anti-vaccine set, who proclaim it as unnecessary. Some of them even go so far as to have “parties” for their children to infect each other with the disease.

Yes, I’m talking chickenpox, otherwise known as varicella.

If you peruse the anti-vaccine blogosphere, as I do on a regular basis, it won’t take you long to find extended rants against the varicella vaccine, proclaiming it as unnecessary, harmful, or at best useless because chickenpox is supposedly a mild childhood disease that causes no harm. Of course, pediatricians know that that’s not true. Before the vaccine, approximately 4 million people developed chickenpox, with around 150,000 cases of complicated disease and around 14,000 hospitalized per year resulting in around 100 deaths per year. After the vaccine, well, here’s an article hot off the presses in the journal Pediatrics from researchers at the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. I think the title says it all: Near Elimination of Varicella Deaths in the US After Implementation of the Vaccination Program.

The design of the study was simple. The investigators examined national data on deaths for which varicella was listed as either an underlying or contributing cause using the Mortality Multiple Cause-of-Death records from the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics, calculating the age-adjusted and age-specific mortality rates for the years 2002 to 2007, examining trends since the prevaccine years:

Because the number of deaths for 2002-2007 was low, age-specific mortality rates are reported for age-groups younger than 20 years, 20 to 49 years, younger than 50 years, and 50 years or older. We reanalyzed varicella deaths reported during 1990 -2001 according to these age groups. Age-adjusted mortality rates were standardized to the 2000 census population to account for changes in the age distribution of the population over time. In the rate analysis of the new data, we grouped the years into 2 periods, 2002-2004 and 2005-2007. We considered 1990 -1994 as representative of the prevaccine years.

So what were the results? This is yet another time when a picture is worth the proverbial thousand words (and I do think that the graphs I’m about to show shave about a thousand words or so each off of this post, for which those not fond of some of my more logorrheic tendencies will be grateful). The year the varicella vaccine was introduced was 1995, and this is the result:

i-368c12f3e9bcb964f04430c6839b70f8-figure1-thumb-130x83-67726.jpg

(Click to embiggen)

This decline, which was an 88% decline in mortality overall for the entire population, was noted in all age groups over the twelve year period of the study. Indeed, it was most impressive among children and adolescents under 20 years there was a 97% reduction in death due to varicella and a 96% reduction in deaths in people under age 50 overall. In people over 50, the decrease in mortality rates was less impressive but still substantial. After a peak in the mid-1990s, mortality due to varicella fell 67% in people over 50.

It should also be noted that this period encompassed the time when only one dose of varicella vaccine was recommended. In 2006, the recommendation was made for a second dose of vaccine, and we don’t yet have the data for that cohort. The results of this study were so impressive that they led the investigators to write in the discussion:

Our findings invite speculation regarding whether in the future varicella related deaths in the US could be eliminated or reduced to extremely low numbers, similar to several other vaccine-preventable diseases (eg, measles, polio). It is clear that the 1-dose varicella vaccination program with the high coverage achieved had a major impact on varicella deaths.

One weakness of this study is that it didn’t include incidence data. However, we know from numerous other sources that the incidence of varicella fell dramatically after the introduction of the vaccine, for instance, this source and this source, the latter of which cites the vaccine as decreasing varicella incidence by 90%, hospitalizations by 88%, and deaths by 74%. In other words, this study is not the only study showing this result. There are now a number of studies attesting to the efficacy of the varicella vaccine at preventing both chickenpox and complications and death from varicella infection.

It is a frequent tactic by anti-vaccine groups to target vaccines against illnesses that they view as “not so bad.” Chickenpox is viewed by many anti-vaccine advocates as being benign. In most children, it is not that serious, but it does have the potential to cause serious disability and death, which can almost completely prevented using the vaccine. In actuality, it is the anti-vaccine propagandists who are callous in this regard, as they will dismiss the saving of close to 100 children a year as being such a small number as to be “insignificant” or “not worth it,” ignoring the thousands of complicated cases there were every year before the vaccine. They also ignore the suffering children and adults with the disease endure. One of the few things I remember vividly from my childhood is just how uncomfortable and itchy I was when I got the chickenpox. The incessant itching is really hard for a child to endure. Anti-vaccine advocates dismiss all that; some of them even consider it healthy to give their children “natural immunity” to chickenpox by taking them to so-called “pox parties.” It’s a false dichotomy, of course. The immunity provided by vaccination is every bit as “natural” as immunity due to having endured the disease.

Unfortunately, if there’s one thing I’ve learned over the years, it’s that anti-vaccinationists will not be swayed by evidence, data, science, or reason. The evidence for the safety and efficacy of vaccines is overwhelming, as is the evidence that vaccines are not associated with autism, making it incredibly unlikely that vaccination represents a cause of the “autism epidemic.” Vaccines like the varicella vaccine are attacked not because they’re ineffective, but rather because the diseases they prevent are not viewed by lay people as being as serious as other common vaccine-preventable diseases, such as pertussis or measles, but that’s just a smokescreen. After all, pertussis is clearly serious, a potentially deadly disease that can kill; yet anti-vaccine activists are somehow able to downplay its seriousness as well. That’s because, no matter how much it is denied, it’s always all about the vaccines. It always has been, and, I fear, always will be.

Comments

  1. #1 KeithB
    July 26, 2011

    Orac, Orac, Orac, these results were *clearly* due to the improved sanitation practices in the US during this time, and have nothing to do with the vaccine.

    I think it is due to the increase of use of alcohol-based sanitizing liquids during this time.

    just in case: 8^)

  2. #2 augustine
    July 26, 2011

    Unfortunately, if there’s one thing I’ve learned over the years, it’s that anti-vaccinationists will not be swayed by evidence, data, science, or reason.

    Neither are the vaccine nazi’s. I’ve learned that they are driven by some sort of socialist morality instead.

    Too bad that they laser beam focus in on a particular disease that they can’t see the effects of the medicine they want mass inoculated.

    Can you say Shingles?

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X02001809

    Mass varicella vaccination is expected to cause a major epidemic of herpes-zoster, affecting more than 50% of those aged 10–44 years at the introduction of vaccination.

    http://www.advisorybodies.doh.gov.uk/jcvi/mins-varicella-041207.htm

    The group discussed published data from the USA. These studies indicate that mass childhood vaccination has reduced the incidence of varicella. The data are also consistent with modelling studies that have predicted an increase in zoster as a result of reduced virus prevalence and hence decreased opportunities for boosting of immunity to zoster by natural infection. In two studies where varicella rates were shown to decrease, there was also a significant increase in zoster post varicella vaccination.

    But don’t worry. Pharma made a vaccine for the vaccine.

  3. #3 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  4. #4 tonylurker
    July 26, 2011

    yes, Augustine would prefer people to suffer both chickenpox as children and shingles later in life, than to vaccinate for either, or both. Yep, it’s much better for millions to suffer for perpetuity than have any slight increase in shingles now (an increase that can be alleviated with a vaccine that’s already available).

  5. #5 Beamup
    July 26, 2011

    So somehow preventing BOTH varicella AND shingles is a bad thing simply because it requires two steps?

    Of course, Stupid Augie relegates the fact that the shingles can be prevented via vaccine too to an afterthought. That would require him to admit that vaccines are actually beneficial, after all.

  6. #6 Th1Th2
    July 26, 2011

    Orac,

    Some of them even go so far as to have “parties” for their children to infect each other with the disease.

    Like how you invite people to attend the party of all parties in every clinic just to get infected with the disease. Yeah right.

  7. #7 Mu
    July 26, 2011

    I have to tell my doctor that the varicella boosters he recommends are contrary to the Augie protocol and should be discontinued. Luckily I have another 15 years until I’m due for another, I wait for the thingy study to pan out until than.

  8. #8 triskelethecat
    July 26, 2011

    Yeah, chickenpox is really benign. I brought it home and gave it to my older brother and infant sister. My sister had a mild case, so got it again as an adult and was very ill for a few weeks, requiring hospitalization. She would have loved a vaccine if it had been available; even paying cash for the vaccine would have been cheaper than her hospital bill turned out to be.

    And chickenpox is mild, too. After all, it’s “normal” for a 5 year old to be so covered with pox that she can’t sit, lie down, use a toilet, sleep, eat, or drink for 3 days. Aveeno didn’t help my daughter; none of the available “treatments” did. Giving a 5 year old Ty*lenol with Co*diene for the severe pain she was in (not just the itching) is just so normal. I always want to have to give my child narcotics. Nearly needing to hospitalize her because of dehydration is normal, too.

    After all, it’s just a mild, childhood disease! /snark

    And we all get to look forward to the chance of shingles as seniors unless we get the shingles vaccine (and trust me, I am counting the years till I am eligible!) I can recall when my grandfather had shingles. He was in pain for months. And a friend’s father still has repercussions from his bout of shingles 4 years ago.

  9. #9 Th1Th2
    July 26, 2011

    Beamup,

    So somehow preventing BOTH varicella AND shingles is a bad thing simply because it requires two steps?

    Nope. You’re not preventing anything instead you’re promoting BOTH. Just one inoculation qualifies for varicella and herpes.

  10. #10 augustine
    July 26, 2011

    ORAC

    Chickenpox is viewed by many anti-vaccine advocates as being benign. In most children, it is not that serious, but it does have the potential to cause serious disability and death, which can almost completely prevented using the vaccine.

    Nice burning straw man. Very nice.

  11. #11 augustine
    July 26, 2011

    Trisket,

    Save your anecdote. ORAC said that, “in most children, it’s not that serious”. Stop portraying your exceptional case to be some sort of rule. The statistics don’t support you.

    The issue is not about individual treatment or live attenuated prophylaxis. The issue is about mass vaccination and informed consent.

  12. #12 Lawrence
    July 26, 2011

    So, I’d be very interested to get Boring Troll’s opinion on Idiot Troll’s rather “interesting – though most say insane” position on vaccines = infection & being able to avoid all disease by common sense?

    Otherwise, if we ignore them, perhaps they can carry on a conversation with each other.

  13. #13 Paratope
    July 26, 2011

    Unfortunately, many news services decided that the title did NOT “say it all,” and the story has circulated under the headline “Chicken Pox Eradicated? Varicella Vaccine Proven to do the Job.” That kind of media ignorance confuses an already befuddled public.

  14. #14 Shirah
    July 26, 2011

    Umm, Augistine (#2), you DO understand that in order to GET shingles at all ever, you must first have chicken pox since it’s all caused by the same the same virus, right? Because your comment sure seems to indicate otherwise, and man would that be super awkward.
    Varicilla-Zoster Virus… type of herpes virus…causes chicken pox and then later in life can case shingles, ’cause it’s a herpes virus and they’re all fun with the ending of the latency and starting another herpes party in your body. Except instead of confetti and cake at the party, you have pox.

    Also, know what’s more of a bummer AND more expensive than getting two vaccine doses? Meningoencephalitis. However, I certainly will concede it is way more fun (subjectively) to say “meningoencephalitis” than “vaccinate” andandandand it makes more money for pharmaceutical companies if you need an extended hospital stay and long term care for complications from said meningoencephalitis vs. if you get two doses of a vaccine. So that pretty much makes meningoencephalitis doubleplusgood, right??

  15. #15 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    [damn internet connection: third attempt to post, apologies for duplication!]

    Th1Th2 and Augustine may be following a primal instinct.

    It has occurred to me that I am healthier than most, so one way to ease ‘population pressure’ around me would be to actually introduce a disease which I felt that me (and my family) would survive whilst killing others, leaving more for ‘the strong who remain’.

    Nobody suspects you as the agent of genocide if you expose yourself to the same danger. No one has to know that you are immune. Hey, I bet some of those anti-vax people already have their immunity. Check their vax records!

    It was a fleeting thought and something that would be sickening to carry out consciously.

    To do it subconsciously would be the only way it could happen where good people are concerned (remember everyone here thinks that he or she is a good person who is doing the right thing).

    If Thx2 and Aug are not aware of this primal instinct, perhaps they are now?

    NO SANE creature would do what you guys are doing for any other reason. So accept it, you are either insane, or BUSTED!

  16. #16 lilady
    July 26, 2011

    Aha, a double helping of the trolls this AM. When I posted about this article yesterday at 7:21 PM, Ugh Troll posted at 7:53 PM with one of the “citations” Ugh Troll presents again. Of course the dynamic duo’s other member Thingy chimes in and both were slapped down for their troll-like inane postings.

    Too bad neither has sought help for their deranged thinking or have failed out of a number of treatment regimens. Neither one has any sort of life, any education, any jobs and get their “jollies” from the derision that is heaped upon them that they derive from each and every posting.

    They haven’t read the article in Pediatrics because they are totally clueless about the analysis and conclusions and because it shoots down their vaccine “theories”.

  17. #17 Th1Th2
    July 26, 2011

    Shirah,

    you DO understand that in order to GET shingles at all ever, you must first have chicken pox since it’s all caused by the same the same virus, right?

    Echolalia.

    you DO understand that in order to GET shingles at all ever, you must first have chicken pox vaccine since it’s all caused by the same the same virus, right?

  18. #18 Mike
    July 26, 2011

    morality due to varicella fell 67% in people over 50.”

    I know it’s a typo. But . . . “Vaccines cause corruption of the moral fabric of our country!”

    Or, um, something? But seriously, given some of the comments I’ve seen here over the years, I could actually see someone running with that.

  19. #19 augustine
    July 26, 2011

    Umm, Augistine (#2), you DO understand that in order to GET shingles at all ever, you must first have chicken pox since it’s all caused by the same the same virus, right?

    In your opinion, do you have any idea why pediatricians have 1/2 to 1/8 the shingles incidence than the general population?

  20. #20 Beamup
    July 26, 2011

    Nice burning straw man. Very nice.

    Apparently your understanding of the term “straw man” is as grossly wrong as with “ad hominem.” It’s only a straw man if the argument referred to is not, in fact, what the other fellow says. But in fact the argument Orac mentioned IS made routinely. For instance:

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/06/its-chicken-pox-a-normal-childhood-illness-arthurs-dad.html

    Not a straw man at all.

  21. #21 TBruce
    July 26, 2011

    Varicella in pregnancy can have serious consequences for both mother and fetus. Testing for immunity and vaccination potentially can reduce this risk to zero.

    Of course, the Troll Patrol will try to discredit this, and fail. I suggest that they go halfsies on a bridge somewhere and indulge their strange desires with each other. Then we’d all be happier.

  22. #22 augustine
    July 26, 2011

    She-rah the fear mongah

    However, I certainly will concede it is way more fun (subjectively) to say “meningoencephalitis” than “vaccinate”

    For informed consent purposes it would be helpful if you brought some data in your attempt to change the context and make chicken pox into some sort of mass childhood killer that every parent should tremble in fear about.

    The general population has a 99.999999999999+% chance of NOT getting meningeosnufulufugus as complication of the childhood infection called chickenpox.

    Of the few that do, could you please list any underlying conditions that might predispose one to that? Or do you believe it’s totally random and therefore fearful to all?

  23. #23 lilady
    July 26, 2011

    Okay Laurence: I kept my promise yesterday to not feed any of the trolls, faltered a bit with my prior post, but now have taken “the pledge” again.

    The trolls try and are very successful in derailing each and every article that Orac posts. By feeding trolls, we forget the efforts of our esteemed host Orac to bring great articles and his brilliant analysis to our attention.

    Please don’t feed any of the trolls.

    Be aware that new posters here are immediately attacked by the trolls. We need to warn them about the trolls and that should be the only time any troll name or any troll posting is mentioned.

    Thank you again Orac for all your efforts, we are in awe of your considerable skills.

  24. #24 TBruce
    July 26, 2011

    There are only three things in life that are certain:

    Death.

    Taxes.

    Ugh troll misusing a term of logic.

  25. #25 Lawrence
    July 26, 2011

    Ditto – it really just needs to be left with “the stupid, it burns!”

    Seconding lilady – thanks again Orac for fighting the good fight, with actual evidence!

  26. #26 Marry Me, Mindy
    July 26, 2011

    Unfortunately, many news services decided that the title did NOT “say it all,” and the story has circulated under the headline “Chicken Pox Eradicated? Varicella Vaccine Proven to do the Job.” That kind of media ignorance confuses an already befuddled public.

    Well, the results do beg the question of how many of those who died were vaccinated.

    Recall the recent measles outbreak. Of the cases where we know the vaccination status, more than 90% of them were not vaccinated, with most of the remainder being undervaccinated (1 dose). Perhaps the adverse outcomes here are all for the non-vaccinated? It very well could be that the chickenpox vaccine could prevent all chickenpox deaths.

  27. #27 augustine
    July 26, 2011

    But in fact the argument Orac mentioned IS made routinely.

    Just a browsing and nowhere did I see that someone said chicken pox CAN NOT cause serious disease or death.

    Stop being pedantic. It’s a straw man. He created. He burned it. ORAC is capable of logical fallacies and rhetoric. It happens.

  28. #28 Th1Th2
    July 26, 2011

    Thank you again Orac for all your efforts, we are in awe of your considerable skills.

    Infection-promoting skills that is for the herpes-loving creatures like you.

  29. #29 Denice Walter
    July 26, 2011

    ” anti-vaccinationists will not be swayed by evidence, data, science or reason”, saith Orac.

    Truly, all of our efforts usually fall upon the deaf ears on our opponents- perhaps even pushing them towards more radical entrenchment- *however* the internet is a spectator sport as well. I try to always remember that other parties are looking on from behind the illuminated screen- not literally , of course. Our reason, science, evidence, and data are not wasted on them- nor are my appeals to the concept of “liklihood”.

    Often key phrases give away their sources: I usually can place from whence these gems of erudition came, and most times, it isn’t pretty. Trolls do serve a purpose, other than amusement. While we can’t go into great detail ( that would require a few semesters) about precisely *why* we hold our views, we probably can give pointers to those currently sitting on the fence or new to the “game”. Some may focus on pure data, others on an overview.

    Anti-vaccination advocates rely on scare tactics, appeals to emotion, and distortion of information. Those are easy to address. I think that there’s another factor: anti-intellectualism and dislike of experts and the educated. I’ll go into this in more detail in the future. I’m pressed for time today.

  30. #30 Composer99
    July 26, 2011

    This study is good news. I have a mini-Composer on the way and he will be getting his varicella shot when he gets a chance. I had chickenpox as a boy and while I can’t say I was miserable, it really sucked being unable to see anyone else, stuck up at my grandmother’s house out of town with my siblings (yep, we all got it around the same time) itching constantly.

  31. #31 Shirah
    July 26, 2011

    [In your opinion, do you have any idea why pediatricians have 1/2 to 1/8 the shingles incidence than the general population?]

    Ciiiiitation, kplzthx!

    My opinion on a random arrangement of words! Can do!: So maybe the people in your random word arrangement situation, just maybe they have more shingles cause they like to decorate bird houses–they could have little tiny shingles for bird houses, PLUS the regular sized shingles for their own home. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen shingles used as siding like this , so maybe the people in your imaginary data set live in buildings with shingles on the sides and on the roof, AND they make tiny birdhouses with shingles on the sides and roof, too. I’d guess that would be a lot of shingles for one person to utilize in a given time period, vs somebody didn’t make bird houses with shingles OR do their own roof work.

  32. #32 mad the swine
    July 26, 2011

    Infection-promoting skills that is for the herpes-loving creatures like you.

    Wow, somebody’s been spending too much time fighting Scourge in WoW.

  33. #33 Mojo
    July 26, 2011

    @augustine

    The issue is about … informed consent.

    You are not part of the solution.

  34. #34 Elizabeth Reid
    July 26, 2011

    I personally know someone whose mother died from varicella encephalitis. Yep, this disease is no big deal!

  35. #35 Lynxreign
    July 26, 2011

    So early in the comments and already we have Th1Th2 showing he or she has no understanding of how vaccines work and augie doggy crowing about acceptable casualties. 100 kids killed a year? Not serious. 14,000 cases serious enough to cause hospitalization? Not serious. I’m sure it won’t be long before he’s talking about culling the weak to create a stronger race.

  36. #36 Shirah
    July 26, 2011

    Jokes about roofing and siding shingles aside, the article is very, very exciting. Seeing that graph was a lot like seeing the graph for the polio vaccine’s pre- and post-vaccine creation/release, for the first time. Dramatic change, for sure. It also makes me think of this: http://xkcd.com/54/

    PS: Firefox causes the heading of the page to read “More evidence for the effectiveness of vaccines: Respectful Insolence”.

  37. #37 Th1Th2
    July 26, 2011

    So early in the comments and already we have Th1Th2 showing he or she has no understanding of how vaccines work

    Didn’t Orac teach you how you qualified for herpes? Now let me show you how the varicella vaccine works in promoting chicken pox and sweet-tasting herpes.

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/07/would_you_like_some_whine_with_that_chee.php#comment-4589242

  38. #38 augustine
    July 26, 2011

    I think that there’s another factor: anti-intellectualism and dislike of experts and the educated. I’ll go into this in more detail in the future. I’m pressed for time today.

    You and your psychobabble pet theories. It’s amazing how smart you think you are. And how you belive people should conform to your world view. You could call your little upcoming essay “why people won’t just trust their government and corporate pharma and just get their damn vaccine and how to ridicule these non-one world* thinkers”

    Anti-vaccination advocates rely on scare tactics, appeals to emotion, and distortion of information.

    Can you assure the spectators that the vaccine nazis, self described as skeptics, do not engage using these tools? In fact the spectators don’t have far to look. They are used in this post alone.

    *this type of skeptic is an intolerant bigot to anyone who has a different world view. It is an absolutist mind set. All other world views are simply ridiculed and fairy tales.

    ie, anyone who refuses the chickenpox vaccine is an unreasonable idiot who must refuse to see the facts the same way a skeptic does. The glass is half empty no matter what. The facts and evidence says it to be so. There are no other ways to look at it. All of the “glass half empty” lookers have agreed and decided it to be so.

    Sorry, but the glass is also half full.The evidence also shows this. And it is reasonable to reject the chicken pox vaccine based on evidence.

  39. #39 Todd W.
    July 26, 2011

    These articles (both from Orac and Pediatrics) are quite timely, as a friend’s husband is currently on the tail end of a bout with shingles. He has been in rather extreme pain, which even narcotic pain killers have done little to mitigate, and very nearly lost one of his eyes. The only reason he had to suffer through this is because he got chicken pox the natural way as a kid in the pre-vaccine era. Unfortunately, he is too young to have received the shingles vaccine. I really hope that he recovers without any nerve damage and that the virus does not reactivate in the future (it has about a 4% recurrence rate).

    Several years ago, before vaccine uptake was prevalent, I also had a supervisor who developed shingles and was out of work for several weeks while dealing with the pain. Thankfully, my boss recovered with no lasting neuropathies, as far as I know.

  40. #40 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    *hands up*

    I have a question if I may please? From Wiki:

    The lymph is then moved along the lymphatic vessel network by either intrinsic contractions of the lymphatic passages or by extrinsic compression of the lymphatic vessels via external tissue forces (e.g. the contractions of skeletal muscles).

    Would more of those kinds of contractions of the skeletal muscles help us to fight and recover from infection?

  41. #41 Lawrence
    July 26, 2011

    I attribute it to the general intellectual dishonesty of the anti-vaccine movement. It really got going (from a hypocritical standpoint) with the creation of the Vaccine Court – and Barbara Fisher’s involvement there.

    Of course, since that didn’t turn out the way she wanted, it has been a long slog through ever other “vaccine = bad” premise that she & the movment could find. Then it was mercury / Thimersol & Autism, which has been thoroughly debunked (especially since autism rates didn’t go down when Thimersol was removed – and most vaccines, including the MMR never had it).

    And over and over again they demand study after study, not happy with the fact that nothing has been uncovered that supports their position (even though they always tough the “next big announcement”). And hanging their hat on demanding a “vax vs. not vax” study – even though the ethical implications are tantamount to another Tuskegee Study, and even when the kinds of comparison studies you could do come out, like the Danish Study – which again refuted the vaccine – autism link, they find any and every reason to ignore the results, including the Thorsen maneuver.

    Just try to nail them down on what they would consider acceptable (since Pharma is bad, they must be pushing for government control of manufacture & distribution of vaccines, right? Eliminate the profit motive? Of course not, since Big Gov is just as bad). They only want their own experts involved, since anyone that actually knows anything about infectious diseases is obviously a Pharma-Shill, because their experts must be completely impartial, right? Come one people, there isn’t an honest bone in their bodies, because they will never admit that their stance may be wrong.

    At the end of the day, they’ve already accepted their premise – whereas the actual science of medicine moves forward, changes, improves, etc – but there side will never, ever change.

  42. #42 augustine
    July 26, 2011

    You are not part of the solution.

    Definitely not part of YOUR solution, which is to vaccinate every man, woman, and child in the world regardless of risk. Everyone doesn’t need vaccines.

    Elizabeth Reid

    I personally know someone whose mother died from varicella encephalitis. Yep, this disease is no big deal!

    I know someone who knows someone who won the lottery. Yep, it’s a good financial plan.

  43. #43 Composer99
    July 26, 2011

    This thread aptly demonstrates the extent to which the regular trolls here live in worlds of the imagination on the matter of medicine, worlds which only marginally touch on the real world.

    How else to explain the nonsense they routinely spew out?

  44. #44 Lawrence
    July 26, 2011

    Hi Jacob.

  45. #45 Orac
    July 26, 2011

    Yep. That’s about the shape of it.

  46. #46 augustine
    July 26, 2011

    This thread aptly demonstrates the extent to which the regular trolls here live in worlds of the imagination on the matter of medicine, worlds which only marginally touch on the real world.

    This comment aptly confirms your intolerant bigot worldview I described @36. Anyone who does not believe the glass is half empty is living in imaginary fairy land.

    You forgot that science can not give you certainty about the world and medicine is certainly not science.

    True scientists are humble. True skeptics are always in doubt. Scientism Based skeptics are neither. They are arrogant pricks who are confident in their ideology.

  47. #47 JoeKaistoe
    July 26, 2011

    I think the real issue here is how often the chicken pox vaccine turns people into chickens.

    Where’s the data on that? Covered up! Big Pharma doesn’t want you to know that there’s a minute physical possibility that the molecules in your body can rearrange into a chicken spontaneously after getting the chicken pox vaccine!

    It’s called informed consent! The public needs it!

    Note: I’m not anti-vaccine, I’m pro-notturningintoachicken vaccine.

  48. #48 Krebiozen
    July 26, 2011

    We usually think of vaccines in relation to children, but it occurs to me that there must be thousands of adults in the USA (and other developed countries) who are completely unvaccinated. Thanks to widespread vaccination they are unlikely to have had the childhood diseases that used to be ubiquitous. Since many of those diseases are still not uncommon in other parts of the world, and are considerably more dangerous in adults than in children, those adults are very vulnerable.

    Travel outside the USA even to Europe, where measles is now on the rise, and where varicella, for example, is not routinely vaccinated against, would be very risky without vaccination. If herd immunity for any of these diseases fails in the USA, and incidence of these diseases starts to rise, as it has in Europe, those adults could be in serious trouble. Ironically they are the people who have the greatest to gain from encouraging people to have their children fully vaccinated.

  49. #49 Poodle Stomper
    July 26, 2011

    you DO understand that in order to GET shingles at all ever, you must first have chicken pox vaccine since it’s all caused by the same the same virus, right?

    I know I shouldn’t feed the troll but…

    Th1Th2,
    No, it is not the same virus. The virus in the vaccine is an attenuated virus. Same (or similar) epitopes but not the same (100%) virus.

  50. #50 Mojo
    July 26, 2011

    @JoeKaistoe

    I now have a mental image of poor little augie pecking away at his keyboard.

  51. #51 augustine
    July 26, 2011

    whereas the actual science of medicine moves forward, changes, improves, etc – but there side will never, ever change.

    No, no. You personally will never change. You’ll just die and another generation will grow up knowing you were wrong.

    It’s kind of a built in ego survival mechanism. The “now” and the “new” generation is always right. If you are part of SBM you psychologically can never be wrong. The old is always wrong. But you are not part of the old science. You are part of the new science and therefore you are always right. Even though tomorrow you will be wrong and the new will be right. You’ll just be dead before you admit it.

    It’s part of the arrogance character.

  52. #52 Todd W.
    July 26, 2011

    Earlier, it was pointed out how augustine incorrectly applied the “straw man” fallacy to someone else. Here is an actual example of a straw man argument from augie itself:

    Definitely not part of YOUR solution, which is to vaccinate every man, woman, and child in the world regardless of risk.

    The reason this is a straw man is that those of us who are pro-vaccine do not argue that everyone, regardless of risks, should be vaccinated. We recognized that there are individuals who have valid medical reasons to not be vaccinated and for whom the risks of the vaccine outweigh the benefits derived, such as risk of anaphylaxis due to allergies to a vaccine ingredient.

    Thank you, augie, for demonstrating what a real straw man fallacy is.

  53. #53 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    Whoa? did I get banned already?

    Was it because my ‘question’ might have contradicted your cosy fantasy about yoga not being any use in healing?

    Seriously, man.

  54. #54 Composer99
    July 26, 2011

    I’ll take psychological projection for $400, Alex.

  55. #55 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    Oh, maybe not. Sorry.

    The paranoia on this forum is more infectious than the lunacy!

    Look, a lot of yoga ******* say that yoga helps drain the lymph.

    Professional thoughts please? I don’t know whether to believe it or not but it makes sense.

  56. #56 Chris
    July 26, 2011

    Ashtanga London: read this.

  57. #57 Neta
    July 26, 2011

    Krebiozen: as long as they don’t have any contraindications (like being allergic to eggs) unvaccinated adults can get vaccinated against most of the “childhood illnesses”. There’s a common perception that immunizations (with the exception of the flu shot) are for kids, and that if you miss them, well that ship has sailed. But if you look at the CDC recommendations, most of the childhood immunizations are also recommended for unimmunized adults without contraindications.
    Going through all of them is what I did a few years ago (I’m in my mid-20’s). It’s an annoying slog, but it can be done. My medical insurance even did the sensible thing and covered them.

  58. #58 brian
    July 26, 2011

    Off topic, but a serious question:

    Does anyone know how to use a kill file for commenters in ScienceBlogs? I found one through an old link at Pharyngula; it apparently worked in via greasmonkey in Firefox, but it didn’t work for me in the newer version.

  59. #59 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    Damnit Chris you Orac-rolled me. You know those dark blue bounded comments put the fear of god into trolls like me!

    Maybe I’m just too holistic for you? When I was in school, chicken pox et al were caused by germs, germs are killed by the immune system and shipped out via the lymph system.

    No doubt the best way to guard against infectious disease is to vaccinate, but what about those who still get the disease? Don’t we owe it to them to know which kinds of diet and exercise, if any, give the best protection and the best chance of recovery?

    What about the 2% who are allergic to egg? Can we do a study, get some of them doing ashtanga yoga and see how they fair wrt infectious disease? Can we please? I’ll pay. Would that negate it’s impartiality?

    Maybe you are not interested in any medicine that your big pharma overlords cannot patent and sell? (Birkam tried, ’nuff said).

  60. #60 Marry Me, Mindy
    July 26, 2011

    Does anyone know how to use a kill file for commenters in ScienceBlogs? I found one through an old link at Pharyngula; it apparently worked in via greasmonkey in Firefox, but it didn’t work for me in the newer version.

    The greasemonkey killfile works here for me

  61. #61 Vasha
    July 26, 2011

    a friend’s husband is currently on the tail end of a bout with shingles…. Unfortunately, he is too young to have received the shingles vaccine

    Now that the incidence of chicken pox has dropped precipitously, adults should probably start getting vaccinated against shingles younger (you could probably request it, even if insurance doesn’t cover it until a certain age). If my understanding is right, the reason that people didn’t used to get shingles until they were elderly is because they’d be exposed to chicken pox from being around children, which would keep their immune systems working to suppress the virus in their nerves; later, it would emerge both because of a general drop in immune function and more importantly, not spending as much time with children. So now, with kids not being sick, younger people will lose their immunity and get shingles. Anyone know if there’s a movement to change the recommendations for shingles vax?

  62. #62 Chris
    July 26, 2011

    Vasha, the age for the shingles vaccine has recently dropped to fifty (which pretty much covers most of the baby boomers). How young do you want it to be?

  63. #63 Sid Offit
    July 26, 2011

    Orac, your confusing total deaths with childhood deaths

    they will dismiss the saving of close to 100 children a year as being such a small number as to be “insignificant” or “not worth it,”

    Adults account for only 5% of reported cases of varicella but approximately 35% of mortality.
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/varicella.pdf

  64. #64 René Najera
    July 26, 2011

    Two things. 1) I’d kill for a comment killer, so send me the link, please. Many a neuron have died reading Augustine’s comments alone.

    2) What’s the over/under on how long before anti-vaxers have “shingles parties” for the elderly?

  65. #65 Lynxreign
    July 26, 2011

    @56 Ashtanga London

    The reason your yoga comments are being dismissed is that there’s no plausible method for yoga doing what you claim. There’s no proposed mechanism to test for any specifics. Diet and exercise are being studied for their effects on health, but there’s no point in studying “magical exercise” since there’s no reason to think there’s anything different than other forms of exercise at best.

  66. #66 Edith Prickly
    July 26, 2011

    @Yogatroll – Pattabhi Jois called with a message for you. Please go practice your asanas and stop annoying people on the Internet.

    Every once in a while tiny, tiny corner of me feels a bit sorry for the hardcore antivaxxers. They’ve made such visible, public declarations of their faith and the evidence keeps stacking up against them. Then I remember all the damage they’ve done to people’s health by peddling misinformation and quack treatments, and all the needless fear and guilt they’ve caused for parents – and I take great pleasure in seeing them reap what they’ve sowed.

  67. #67 Todd W.
    July 26, 2011

    @Sid

    Hey, Bob! So, are you implying that you’re okay with adults dying from the disease? Or that you’re okay with only 65 kids dying each year?

  68. #68 Jarred C
    July 26, 2011

    Ashtubga, I’ve never heard of that, but a quick google search shows that some lymph gland blocks can be cleared in some situations. For example, the following link gives instructions on how to drain a blocked cervical lymph gland during (or immediately after) an ear infection.

    http://www.ehow.com/how_4473948_drain-lymph-gland-neck-from.html

    If it is true that massage can do this, then I see no reason why a specific move in A. Yoga (or a similar exercise) could not also do this. Of course, I must add a qualifying statement that this is only for this one lymph node, since I didn’t look anything up for any other lymph node, and this is entirely new to me, so I could be completely wrong here.

  69. #69 Vasha
    July 26, 2011

    This article looks like it might be relevant:

    Leung J, Harpaz R, Molinari NA, Jumaan A, Zhou F. Herpes zoster incidence among insured persons in the United States, 1993-2006: evaluation of impact of varicella vaccination. Clin Infect Dis. 2011 Feb 1;52(3):332-40.

    I can’t read it without going to the university library, of course.

  70. #70 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    Lynx, I am not offering any ‘magic’ or ‘woo’.

    I am offering a definable system of moving and breathing, that is all.

    If you think I have offered ‘woo’ then please point it out or stop building that straw man.

    My ashtanga yoga is physical exercise which has components that are not found together in any other system.

    Hence there is reason to believe it may perform differently to any other kind of exercise and any other kind of ‘yoga’.

    My website highlights the importance and superiority of modern medicine over yoga and old woo. You have no idea who you are talking to or what we are actually talking about.

    You said ‘magic’ not me, so point out my ‘woo’ or stop being a troll.

  71. #71 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    Edith Prickly, I’ve trained with PKJ. How would you know of him and are you aware that he passed away?

  72. #72 Passing Comment
    July 26, 2011

    Just an passing observation from a lurker:

    The anti-vaccine conspiracy theories about the ‘money in vaccines’ is hogwash and anyone can realise that just by researching. All the info is there.

    However,

    It is hard to see how the following could not be seen as a boon to some experts and a threat to others:

    Yoga does have therapeutic value, why deny it in such a troll-like fashion?
    ABA is considered (by whom?) to be inhumane, ineffective, and a big money-spinner for the providers. When the J troll challenged it he got his head bitten off. Why?
    Cannabis clearly has far more medical potential than you and the commentariat like to shout about and some comments echo old propaganda parrot-fashion as if it wasn’t all disproved in the last 20-something years.

    May I suggest you take ‘cannabis for autism’ more seriously? It’s no joke, and if you cannot see that *all* of the alternatives out there are far, far worse, I can’t say you truly have a heart until you look at it from a fresh neutral perspective.

    As for J trolls’ asperger diagnosis. It is real and it is a testament to his ‘treatment regime’ that you consider him to be something other.

  73. #73 Marry Me, Mindy
    July 26, 2011

    I’d kill for a comment killer, so send me the link, please. Many a neuron have died reading Augustine’s comments alone.

    Rene – if you are using Firefox, then do a search of this blog for “greasemonkey” and/or “killfile.” That’s where I got directions for doing it (I realize that this is only partially helpful, but I never remember the details of how to do it, so this is my strategy for getting there)

  74. #74 JoeKaistoe
    July 26, 2011

    @Ashtanga London

    You want to yoga? I’ll yoga. But I yoga to WIN.

    If you want to throw down on the foam mat, I’m game. But bring your A GAME. If you don’t, I’ll give you a yoga thrashing like you wouldn’t believe. You won’t be able to breathe for WEEKS. I don’t yoga with yosers (yoga posers).

    Step up or shut up, the gauntlet has been thrown.

  75. #75 JayK
    July 26, 2011

    One of the lost topics about vaccines, specifically the varicella vaccine, that there is a significant economic impact for not vaccinating. A child with chicken pox must stay home, and in a two-wage family, or worse a single-parent family, the economic impact can be incredible. Across a community/city/state/nation these figures can add up to a significant amount.

    Rozenbaum, M. H., Vegter, S., Postma, M. J., & Van, H. A. J. (August 01, 2008). Cost-effectiveness of varicella vaccination programs: An update of the literature. Expert Review of Vaccines, 7, 6, 753-782.

  76. #76 Calli Arcale
    July 26, 2011

    augustine:

    Save your anecdote. ORAC said that, “in most children, it’s not that serious”. Stop portraying your exceptional case to be some sort of rule. The statistics don’t support you.

    Actually, the case she described is not exceptional. It’s fairly typical. Notice that none of the children needed hospitalization. They were miserable, but they recovered at home. That’s a mild case. Most cases are like that — misery for a few days/weeks, then fine, but knowing you could get shingles later on.

    My case was milder; I itched like the blazes, but that was about it. I passed it on to my brothers, who had it worse, and who passed it on to classmates, some of whom had it much worse, but would still be classed as “mild”.

    A relative of mine got shingles a few years ago. She has no lingering pain, fortunately, and her eyesight returned in the affected eye. But she never regained function in the nerves on that side of her face, and is permanently disfigured as a result. I intend to get the shingles vaccine. I got chickenpox immunity the old fashioned way, but with few children getting it now, I want to refresh it the new-fangled way.

  77. #77 Edith Prickly
    July 26, 2011

    I know about Pattabhi Jois because I’ve done ashtanga yoga off and on for the last decade and it is common knowledge that he was the modern master of this style. No big mystery. And yes, I am aware that he passed away in 2009.

  78. #78 lilady
    July 26, 2011

    @ Neta: Excellent posting, however there are new recommendations about egg allergies and the administration of influenza vaccine. They are available at the ACIP site. There also is a complete explanation of ACIP’s recommendation which has been adopted by the CDC available on the Internal Medicine News website:

    ACIP Recommends Flu Vaccine for Egg-Allergic Persons

    Of course, flu vaccine is administered, just like every vaccine administered by qualified health care professionals who screen people for past allergies. According to the new recommendations, only the presence of hives (urticaria) after eating eggs is a contraindication for flu immunization.

    Notice Lawrence, how I continue to post “around” the trolls’ remarks…I’m keeping the “pledge” to starve them…and so they don’t get their “jollies”. Please feel free to interpret the term “jollies” or check out the DSM IV under psycho-sexual disorders.

  79. #79 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    JoeK,

    Would you like a side order of Ham with that word-salad of yours?

  80. #80 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    July 26, 2011

    Actually, I think there’s room for different value judgments here. The evidence is clear – the chicken pox vaccine dramatically reduces deaths caused by chicken pox and likely (though this particular study didn’t go into it) reduces the number of people with severe and complicated cases of chicken pox. Combined with a shingles vaccine, one could (apparently) go ones entire life without either chicken pox or shingles without taking special precautions to avoid exposure. Note I use these terms in the same way most people do, and not as some who believe that an attenuated virus causing an asymptomatic infection is the same thing as a fully symptomatic case of the disease.

    So – in the US maybe 100 lives saved per year, several thousand hospitalizations avoided per year, and perhaps millions who avoid a real illness. That’s what the science probably says.

    Is that enough reason to perform mass immunizations? I tend to think so, but could see how someone might disagree. Just as someone could reasonably say “yes, I agree that banning substance x would reduce the number of deaths annually, I still don’t want to ban it,” one could reasonably say that the numbers for chicken pox don’t justify a mass immunization program without denying the potential benefits.

  81. #81 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    JoeK,

    Would you like a side order of ham with your word-salad?

    I guess I’m right about the Lymph or none of you would have been able to resist putting me down for being stupid and not knowing anything about the body or health or disease.

    So if no-one challenges it, then you are accepting that ashtanga yoga can ameliorate the healing process.

  82. #82 JoeKaistoe
    July 26, 2011

    @Ashtanga L #74

    Why yes, have it delivered ASAP, with a side order of on topic and find your own soapbox.

    Just remembering my experience with chicken pox makes me wish the vaccine was around back then. It was a continuous bout of excrutiating itchy feeling, followed by scratching, followed by being scolded for scratching and not understanding why my mom was being so cruel, not letting me scratch.

    I do remember parents deliberately infecting their kids with chicken pox in order to ensure they get it back then, but that seems like an absurd concept with the availability of vaccines with much less discomfort and chance of complications.

  83. #83 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    That’s good to hear Edith.

    Which beggers the usual questions.

    You practice on and off, what causes the ‘offs’ and do you think you will practice it again? Do you hope to one day regain your daily practice?

    Did you do Ujjayi breathing, both bandhas and the drsti?
    May I ask what your practice was? Which pose did your last teacher stop you on?

    Did you do self-practice or always led classes?
    Who was your teacher’s teacher?

    Common knowledge that KPJ was the master. Not common knowledge who has replaced him.

  84. #84 Composer99
    July 26, 2011

    One thing that was interesting in the graph Orac shared in today’s post that I remarked upon in yesterday’s post was that the mortality rate had, after a brief peak, dropped for people in the 50+ age category as well.

  85. #85 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    July 26, 2011

    I have no idea whether yoga has any influence on the ability of lymph nodes to drain. It’s my understanding that under normal circumstances they drain just fine without it.

    Who says that yoga provides a benefit here and what evidence do they provide for that? Is that benefit, if any, better or worse than other techniques?

  86. #86 Beamup
    July 26, 2011

    Am I the only one who finds it an amusing coincidence that Orac and his “friend” have simultaneously been infested with off-topic spammers who really ought to start their own blogs instead of derailing every single comment thread with material of no relation to the original post?

  87. #87 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  88. #88 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  89. #89 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  90. #90 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  91. #91 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  92. #92 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  93. #93 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  94. #94 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  95. #95 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  96. #96 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  97. #97 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  98. #98 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  99. #99 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  100. #100 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  101. #101 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  102. #102 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  103. #103 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  104. #104 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  105. #105 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  106. #106 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  107. #107 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  108. #108 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  109. #109 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  110. #110 The Cannabis for Autism Cat
    July 26, 2011

    That is so spooky. That graph looks just like the graph showing when all the anti-vaxers joined my facebook page, then they caused trouble, then they all made a big scene and left!

    Here it is, remarkably similar:

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=214503665239151&set=a.202753263080858.45460.158293914193460&type=1&theater

    Hi Orac we <3 you blog and we <3 science :)

  111. #111 Queen Khentkawes
    July 26, 2011

    Good one, KeithB! You had me going for a minute!

  112. #112 lilady
    July 26, 2011

    Hey Offal: You’re confusing “Your” with “You’re”…I hate picky idiot trolls.

    Offal you didn’t read the first part of Orac’s brilliant analysis:

    Before the vaccine, approximately 4 million people developed chickenpox, with around 150,000 cases of complicated disease and around 14,000 hospitalized per year resulting in around 100 deaths per year.

    Or perhaps you did read the article in its entirety, couldn’t comprehend it with your non-existent science background..and deliberately picked up a sentence later on where Orac inadvertently stated that the 100 deaths per year were childhood deaths…and that would be your contribution to the discussion? I hate picky typo-nitpicking idiot trolls.

  113. #113 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    Thanks Meph, I think you are saying that the lymph system does help us to fight disease.

    So you think the lymph works the same however you move, or remain motionless? Interesting.

    Beamup, all this evasiveness is making me have to post more often. I don’t want to leave it because slowly and painfully I’m learning things here.

    I think it’s pretty clear that the lymph is involved in fighting disease, and that some kinds of movement will give rise to greater mobility in the Lymph than others.

    So one question remains? Is it possible to test the action of the lymph directly or would we need to do an epidemiological study in order to get some data to replace our prejudiced views?

  114. #114 Mu
    July 26, 2011

    It must be those two weeks between end of summer camp and school start. Augie, Thingy, Sid and Yoga all in the same thread, before 12 pm.

  115. #115 Krebiozen
    July 26, 2011

    Using Firefox with Greasemonkey and the killfile script works perfectly with this blog. Instructions are here. Comments from my fellow Londoner are no longer visible – bliss!

    @Neta,
    It’s good to know vaccination is available for adults, but it seems there is a small but significant minority who are unvaccinated, have not had measles, mumps, rubella, varicella etc., and don’t want vaccination. They are in the same position as Native Americans were before the arrival of Europeans in the Americas (apart from the lack of smallpox).

    BTW I’m in the UK where varicella vaccination is not, yet, part of the routine infant vaccination schedule. I suspect this paper will spark a new debate about this among public health officials here.

  116. #116 Colin Day
    July 26, 2011

    @augustine
    #20

    The general population has a 99.999999999999+% chance of NOT getting meningeosnufulufugus as complication of the childhood infection called chickenpox.

    Fourteen 9s? I doubt there have even been 10^14 people. So even one occurrence would falsify your claim. Is your medical advice as bad as your math?

  117. #117 Beamup
    July 26, 2011

    More just proves that Augie simply makes up whatever BS happens to fit his prejudices. See also “compulsive liar.”

  118. #118 René Najera
    July 26, 2011

    Ah. Yes. I’ve now “killed” the comments by the morons. My computer should run smoother without the “Troll Who Uses The Fallacies He Complains About”, the “Troll Who Thinks He’s A Virologist And A Writer But Gets Virology AND Grammar/Spelling/Punctuation Wrong”, and the “Troll Who Thinks Vaccines Cause Infectious Disease, Even The Acellular Vaccine”.

    Less stupid, more good discussions. Awesome.

    Thanks for the comment kill greasemonkey script, @Krebiozen.

  119. #119 Sannica
    July 26, 2011

    So as I understand it, Ashty is saying that since he/she figures yoga can help with disease, maybe by helping your lymph move around, then anytime there is a post about disease, he/she should totally make all of us (you) talk about how yoga can fix it.

    When you had chickenpox as a child, did you try yoga to relieve the symptoms or affect disease progression? Have you tried this with shingles as an adult? Do you know of anyone who has done this for either situation? Can you find any studies suggesting that yoga has an impact on varicella zoster virus at all? If none of these are the case (or honestly, even if you just have anecdotal evidence and can’t find anything peer-reviewed) then this probably isn’t the appropriate place to discuss yoga. Feel free to set up a study about this, but be aware that most funding agencies to require that there be some sort of evidence that the study will provide something useful – like yoga helping with some other chronic herpesvirus infection, or another neurotropic virus. When your study is all done and you have something useful to contribute, why then, you can tell us all about how yoga does or does not help with the virus or vaccine! This is also a pretty useful set of guidelines about when yoga is an appropriate addition to the discussion of other topics.

    On another note, hurrah for reduction in chickenpox-related deaths!

  120. #120 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    Good. No more negative contributions from Krebiozen.

  121. #121 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    Good. No more negative contributions from Krebiozen.

  122. #122 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    July 26, 2011

    Ashtanga London,
    The lymphatic system is part of the immune system and does help fight disease. This is well known.
    It would not shock me (though I do not know) that physical activity affects the operation of the lymphatic system in the same sort of ways that it affects the circulatory system.
    It is not clear to me whether ashtanga yoga improves or hinders the operation of the lymphatic system. Assuming it improves the operation of the lymphatic system, it’s not clear that it does this better than any other physical activity. Even if it improves the function of the lymph system better than all other know physical activity, it’s unclear that this provides a benefit to someone who does not currently have an infection of the lymphatic system, producing swollen lymph nodes.
    Do you have data that says:
    1. physical activity improves the operation of the lymphatic system in a way that provides a measurable benefit in the absence of infected lymph nodes?
    2. ashtanga yoga in particular improves the operation of the lymphatic system in a way that provides measurable benefits?
    3. that ashtanga yoga is in some way measurably better at providing these benefits (if any) than other physical activities?
    Thanks.

  123. #123 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    July 26, 2011

    I had killfile installed before, but I quickly realized I get a lot of entertainment out of troll-spew and troll smackdowns. I’m just a sadist, I guess (or maybe a masochist?) Thingy, Augie, Sid Awful, even Jacob, were amusing in their own way. But Ashtanga London has finally worn me down. I’ve reenabled killfile, and AL—you’re the only person in it!

  124. #124 Todd W.
    July 26, 2011

    @Mephistopheles O’Brien

    One more thing to add: that it works better than other non-physical activities (by which I mean, activities in which the patient does not move around/exercise), such as massage, which also is purported to have effects on the lymphatic system.

  125. #125 Yojimbo
    July 26, 2011

    As spokesperson for PETT (People for the Ethical Treatment of Trolls), I wish to convey our sincere thanks for the care and concern shown here at RI. Few places on the Internet can boast so many well fed, glossy-coated and downright happy trolls. We are proud to name this site “PETT Approved”.

    Too much snark? Okay… sorry.

  126. #126 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    A way to look at Ashtanga Yoga is that it is basically a Thai Massage which you do to yourself.

    You get the exercise that the masseur would get while you lie there.
    You also add the breathing, bandhas and drishti which are extra but probably not too relevant to they lymph issue (actually how do we know? I think the ujjayi breathing could affect a lot of things and the bandhas are core squeezes).

    I’ve spent the last year experimenting with not doing much yoga and simulating my old job and I went back to having colds the way I used to. Back on the yoga thank god. I’d go into more detail but I don’t want to get knocked back after typing another 400 words.

  127. #127 Acleron
    July 26, 2011

    Must remember
    Must not feed the trolls
    Must not feed the trolls…..

    Oh, this is very hard. :(

  128. #128 JoeKaistoe
    July 26, 2011

    I’d like to speak seriously for a second, if I may.

    I used to be sickly and frequently have to take sick days until I discovered the fantastic healing qualities of Yoga-urt, which I coincidentally created and sell.

    It’s miraculous properties when heated and eaten properly, perform the same miraculous healing benefits of many types of yoga, such as Ashtanga Yoga, without having to practice and learn how to yoga. It’s been anecdotally proven to drain lymphs even faster than Yoga-ing.

  129. #129 Gray Falcon
    July 26, 2011

    As near as I can tell, augustine is used to using rhetorical tricks to win converts, and isn’t used to dealing with people who ask questions rather than go into instant panic mode. Now he’s trying to “win” using our methods, but fails to understand that our goal is not to “win”, but simply to know what’s really going on. For example, he assumes that logical fallacies are another rhetorical device, and fails to understand why they represent serious flaws in one’s arguments.

    Also, it appears augustine is not used to thinking about probabilities, at least not as anything other than propaganda tools. The fact that the odds of complications from chickenpox are about one in a hundred is something he dismisses, but the one in a million odds of issues with the vaccine is considered a major threat. The idea that one can weigh and compare probabilities is lost on him, he was never taught to think and understand.

    Mr. Ashtanga London, I only have this to say to you, and nothing else. Do you think we’ll take the word of someone so clueless he doesn’t even realize that it’s rude to post off-topic?

  130. #130 Lynxreign
    July 26, 2011

    I’ve spent the last year experimenting with not doing much yoga and simulating my old job and I went back to having colds the way I used to.

    There’s the most recent example of magical thinking. Anecdote is not evidence. Then there’s the wild speculation, apparently based on nothing, that your special kind of yoga helps “drain the lymph”. I didn’t use the term “woo”, but you’re certainly full of it.

  131. #131 Igor Jarkov
    July 26, 2011

    That’s what I mean. You have deleted comments from separate individuals who can clearly be differentiated if you just bother to stalk them properly, claiming they are ‘All Jacob’.

    The thread where cannabis and infant mortality was brought up was a complete farce.

    Your ‘crew’ assumed it was nonsense, pulled out a crap study to derail it then when your ‘opponent’ was actually able to interpret properly you started hitting delete in a panic.

    You censor, you Lie, you chicken. ‘Fucking ignorant’ is the correct terminology for these sets of behaviours you and your crew display.

  132. #132 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    Ok bye.

  133. #133 craggy kaggy
    July 26, 2011

    Civilized rational adults cover up genocide and blame the victim in abuse situations.
    Why would anyone want to be like you people? Three quarters of the world look at you and despair. They know that you are the reason they still suffer.
    Three quarters of the world do not have access to proper pain medication.
    Stand up to your governments and tell them to release the folk medicine.

    The poppy, the ganja, and the coca are not yours to control.

    Orac? Why have you got a problem with cannabis killing cancer cells?

  134. #134 Until Rescheduling
    July 26, 2011

    Dear Orac,

    Your blog has been selected for Trolling.

    We are trolling medical blogs as part of the drive to get cannabis removed from Schedule 1 in the UK and the USA.

    You can help speed things up by telling your audience about the medical benefits of cannabis and debunking the myths.

    Or you can carry on letting the trolls attempt to put it in your comments every day on every thread (until we can find a way to escalate the matter further).

    I hope this clears up our position and your options?

    Thank you for your time,
    The G

  135. #135 Melissa G
    July 26, 2011

    I, too, would like a killfile.

    I think people should be free to spew whatever comments they like, but as one who has been reading this blog since before it was on ScienceBlogs, I am really sick of having to wade through the same tired, impervious-to-reason arguments from the same 3 or 4 trolls every single post, which has what the comment threads have come to lately.

  136. #136 Tsu Dho Nimh
    July 26, 2011

    The vaccine had NOTHING to do with the declining death rate. It was the introduction of modern sanitation and indoor plumbing to the USA that caused the decline.

    Oh … I’ve already used that argument to disprove the 1960s measles vaccine?

    Uh, it was Sun’s release of Java?

  137. #137 Reputation2 of a Plant2
    July 26, 2011

    Yeah, so Jacob is a medical cannabis user and you took the piss over his medicine now he’s got it in for you.

    I’d hardly say that’s a difficult explanation to grasp.

    Yeah he’s a troll but what causes ‘trolling’?

  138. #138 Nate
    July 26, 2011

    Orac, this has nothing to do w/ varicella, but I just found out that I went to high school w/ Lisa Handley, JB’s wife.
    http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-4902-curing_jamie_handley.html
    http://www.generationrescue.org/about/board-of-directors-2/
    She was valedictorian, in a very competetive class. I can’t tell you how disturbing I find this.

  139. #139 lilady
    July 26, 2011

    @ Gray Falcon: (no mention of any troll names here) has no “converts” just a sock puppet whom Harriet Hall engaged a while back and whom Dr. Hall stated that attempts to engage is “like trying to nail down Jello to a wall”…I love Dr. Hall.

    Please join me in the pledge so that the trolls are deprived of their “jollies”.

  140. #140 Orac
    July 26, 2011

    @Melissa G

    What would you have me do? I’ve put my money where my mouth is, so to speak, when it comes to my advocacy of free speech, letting even those who detest me and oppose everything I stand for comment almost unmoderated. I say “almost,” because even my extremely generous and free speech-oriented policy has been tried from time to time, such as when I was forced to ban the cannabis troll after he kept morphing into numerous sock puppets, something he still does from time to time. Indeed, today he appears to have figured out how to use a service to change his IP address, which admittedly makes cleaning up his obnoxious, inconsiderate, and idiotic sockpuppetry more difficult but certainly by no means impossible. Another time came recently, when I warned the yoga troll to stop flooding posts that had nothing to do with his pet obsession with comments about yoga. Overall, though, by and large I’ve tried very hard over the last six and a half years to take a hands-off approach to the comments, with only very uncommon exceptions.

    One thing I sometimes do if a commenter floods the comments and thus annoys my other commenters is to create a filter that automatically sends that commenter to moderation. I then almost always approve every post, but moderating over-eager commenters who post so frequently that they drown out others serves the purpose of slowing down the spigot. They usually get the message eventually, and then I remove the moderation filter.

    In any case, the price of my dedication to free speech and my lack of fear of attacks by advocates of pseudoscience like Sid Offit, augustine, and their ilk does have a downside. The question is: How do I minimize that downside without cracking down so much that I threaten the open and unfettered free-for-all in the comments that has been a feature of this blog since almost the very beginning.

  141. #141 J. Cub
    July 26, 2011

    -_-

    New post is there for you. You know where to look.

  142. #142 Melissa G
    July 26, 2011

    @Orac– Actually, I think what you’re doing is the right way to handle things. The fact that your blog allows free speech while AoA’s is moderated to within an inch of its life is indicative of how highly we here value discourse and dissent and education! It was my lurking and reading the regulars demolishing the trolls that swung me over to the scientific side, after all.

    I found in the comments where people were talking about Greasemonkey’s killfile, and I have installed it! Now I don’t have to read anyone I don’t feel like, but the fence-sitters in the audience still have the arguments to read. I think it’s a great solution to what is a problem for me but is probably not a problem for others.

  143. #143 Richard Smith
    July 26, 2011

    @augustine (#43):

    Scientism Based skeptics are neither. They are arrogant pricks who are confident in their ideology.

    Odd. I wouldn’t have otherwise thought you to be a “Scientism Based skeptic.”

  144. #144 Vicki
    July 26, 2011

    Ashtanga:

    There’s a thing called herd immunity. If the 98% of the population that doesn’t have a specific medical counterindication for the chicken pox vaccine all get immunized, that will break most of the chain of transmission. To catch chicken pox, a person has to be vulnerable (not immune) and has to be exposed to the virus.

    That’s part of why we keep saying “get yourself and your kids vaccinated.” Your flu shot doesn’t just protect you, it protects your immuno-compromised neighbor and your friend’s child who is allergic to eggs and the person on the subway who can’t afford the flu shot. (Living in a civilised country, you may not realize this, but for a significant number of Americans, that’s $20 from an already tight budget.)

  145. #145 Yojimbo
    July 26, 2011

    The proliferation of trolls is not Orac’s fault. It is ours for being so generous with the Troll Chow.

  146. #146 Ashtanga London
    July 26, 2011

    Vicki are you getting me confused with Augustine?

    You’ve just told someone who is pro-vaccine a load of stuff he already knew.
    I know about herd immunity (95% is needed for measles which is the highest).
    Yes we would hope that herd immunity will protect the remaining few who are allergic.

    Still we can do more to give the unvaccinated a better chance of fighting disease should it come their way.

    That guy under the subway? I know him. I taught him yoga for free this morning.

  147. #147 Larry
    July 26, 2011

    I too value discourse.

    Here is a list of vaccine injury claims made to Federal Court (2011)

    http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/opinions_decisions_vaccine/Unpublished?page=60

  148. #148 The Christian Cynic
    July 26, 2011

    And Larry, look at how many of those claims including the keywords “dismissal” or “insufficient proof of causation.”

  149. #149 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    July 26, 2011

    Larry – The possibility of vaccine related injuries and the special court established for those cases have been discussed many times before. Did you have a particular point?

  150. #150 lsm
    July 26, 2011

    ORAC: There’s free speech, and then there’s anarchy. Just lately, my fear as a long-time lurker has been that the same thing could happen here as did on my other favorite blog: the “derailers” degraded the exchange of knowledge/opinions until it was no longer worthwhile to go there, or at least to stay very long. It declined until any flow of ideas were lost in the mudslinging. There are signs of that kind of interference today with this ridiculous yoga crap.

    I would suggest a clearly defined policy to protect the integrity of the blog against those rare few who don’t respect the very fair policy you set forth. Free speech would still be alive and well.

  151. #151 lilady
    July 26, 2011

    @ Christian Cynic & Mephistopheles O’Brien: Absolutely no point and totally ignorant about the dismissal of the majority of the cases.

    Many of the cases that received remuneration were Guillain-Barre Syndrome after Influenza vaccine…which we have discussed previously. The incidence of Guillain-Barre Syndrome is much higher in people who actually become infected with seasonal flu virus…you know, the ones who do not get the seasonal flu vaccine.

  152. #152 Igor Jarkov
    July 26, 2011

    @lsm

    You see, I predict your fucking ignorance before you even post.

    Why don’t you climb right up the censors arse and lick it properly?

    Orac censors things. However you want to dress it up as crimes of the troll, it is censorship.

    Orac is bullshitting about his ‘free speech’ policy.

  153. #153 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    July 26, 2011

    Igor Jarkov,
    You are a rude, crude individual who apparently can’t even link properly (you said, “here’s an article” but no article was present).
    You’ve added nothing to the conversation.

  154. #154 Robert Grumbine
    July 26, 2011

    @Orac:
    I think your holding pen solution is elegant. Maybe just apply it a little more readily.

    @most others — trolls feed on attention. You’re not all in your first few months on the net, so you know this. Deny them their food source and they leave for other feeding grounds. Their few posts here would not take over comment threads if they were ignored. Conduct the adult discussion across the tantrum.

    Orac:
    Do keep up the good posting. I haven’t the style for it, but with my blog topic being climate, I have a lot of sympathy for your style.
    @ashtanga
    (I hope I’m not violating my own comment above …)
    I haven’t read many of the comment replies, and maybe I’m just repeating something that’s been ineffective …

    Sure, yoga is good. I’ve got friends who do it, and feel better for doing so. One thing you’re lacking, though, is anything beyond the bare anecdote.

    In the same vein, I’ll also mention that running is good, walking is good, rowing, biking, swimming, weight lifting, kettlebells, tennis, and many others are also good. I know people who do those and feel better for it as well. I know of a number of research articles on running (my own preferred exercise) being good for you.

    That’s kind of the issue for you here. When you talk about yoga’s goodness, folks here are looking for more than your bare story (no matter how emphatically you tell it) that it is — lots of exercises are good. If you’re claiming it’s good, they’re looking for you to present the evidence that not only it is good, but that it is better than alternatives.

    The other thing, of course, commenters are looking for is for your comment to be relevant to the topic at hand. Yoga just isn’t relevant to chicken pox. A dozen of comments on yoga even less so.

    @@
    Digressing a second as the comment thread on the recent CR CAM post was completely derailed:
    The business of calling strengthening, stretching, and massage ‘Alternative’ medicine is well-deserving of some large heaps of ever-so-Respectful insolence.

    I’ve been through a few injuries the last few years, including a fairly mysterious calf problem, torn rotator cuffs (yes, plural), and breaking my wrist (which did require surgery). For all of them, physical therapy — stretching and strengthening were needed, massage as well for the calf problem. Nobody was saying anything about ‘alternative’ medicine in giving me the exercises or the reference for physical therapy. Perfectly ‘mundane’ medicine, that was quite effective. My wrist surgeon said that I’d recovered better/farther than she’d expected, and the physical therapy was the likely reason.

  155. #155 Orac
    July 26, 2011

    Igor Jarkov,
    You are a rude, crude individual who apparently can’t even link properly (you said, “here’s an article” but no article was present).
    You’ve added nothing to the conversation.

    Igor is also yet another sockpuppet of Jacob the cannabis troll.

  156. #156 Chris
    July 26, 2011

    Christian Cynic and Mephistopheles O’Brien, as noted before, Larry has trouble actually reading and understanding the links he thinks are “proof.”

  157. #157 Bronze Dog
    July 26, 2011

    So, Igor, why aren’t you complaining more about the much more draconian censorship policies at AoA?

    Oh, and I once had a troll on my blog who, after getting himself embarrassed, posted “dumbass” copypasta’d so many times my browser thought it was caught in an infinite looping script. Would it be “censorship” to delete a post like that?

  158. #158 Lisa B
    July 26, 2011

    Orac, I thought you might be interested to hear that cracked.com is doing its best to teach the masses that vaccines are good for you (and antibacterial soap is bad!):

    http://www.cracked.com/article_17084_5-ways-people-are-trying-to-save-world-that-dont-work.html?wa_user1=2&wa_user2=Weird+World&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=recommended

    Peace!

  159. #159 brian
    July 26, 2011

    Thanks to those who commented regarding killfiles. Because of your help I’ll now contentedly use Firefox to read ScienceBlogs while never again having to read anything from the most obnoxious trolls here. The original script sorta-kinda worked in Chrome–the browser I usually use–but that program allowed hiding comments without every properly nuking little augie and Th1Th2.

    Excellent.

  160. #160 Bronze Dog
    July 26, 2011

    Missed the sockpuppetry. It’s sad that he deliberately and knowingly chose the least effective means of communicating his alleged points, as well as being deliberately dishonest. It’s like he deliberately chooses to discredit the benefits of cannibis by acting like a childish, insane, and monomaniacal propagandist.

    If you wanted your speech to be posted, Jacob, you should have found a thread where it’s on topic. You know, like a civilized, rational adult would.

  161. #161 lsm
    July 26, 2011

    Golly gee, Igor, is somebody a little cross today?

    Yup, there’s censorship, and then there’s anarchy. I’m OK with getting rid of the A-number one, top tier, possibly deranged, trolls.

    Thanks for what you do, ORAC.

  162. #162 herr doktor bimler
    July 26, 2011

    attempts to engage [trolls] is “like trying to nail down Jello to a wall”

    And as they say about wrestling pigs, it’s doubly futile because the Jello enjoys it.

  163. #163 herr doktor bimler
    July 26, 2011

    someone was playing games with your medicine.
    Sounds like someone mixed PCP with Jacob’s marijuana again.

  164. #164 Narad
    July 26, 2011

    What have you got against pot killing tumours Orac?

    Doesn’t seem to have killed you. Perhaps you’re actually just an oozing cyst.

  165. #165 lilady
    July 26, 2011

    Robert Grumbine stated it so well (I’m jealous):

    @most others — trolls feed on attention. You’re not all in your first few months on the net, so you know this. Deny them their food source and they leave for other feeding grounds. Their few posts here would not take over comment threads if they were ignored. Conduct the adult discussion across the tantrum.

  166. #166 larry
    July 26, 2011

    Vaccines do not cause autism

    http://t.co/nSXEeuZ

  167. #167 Denice Walter
    July 26, 2011

    I have no need of killfile: I scan down to the ‘nym and decide whether I want to read that troll’s excresence or not- if a beguiling word sticks out on the way, I might think,” Oh, this is going to be ‘good’!”- meaning, *really* bad- and read. Remember though, I listen to Gary Null and read Mike Adams, so this stuff is minor league to me.( Actually, it’s incredible how much trolls sound like those two. I wonder why?)

    Occasionally I’ll respond either as a way to instruct on-lookers or because I feel sorry for the person ( i.e. young Jake)and think that I might prod them in the right direction. Usually I stay away from the “frequent flyers” @ RI: they’re already too well fed without my contribution.
    (And yes, I do toss Neo-Victorian Jamesian prose into their pathway in order to be irksome).

  168. #168 Chris
    July 26, 2011

    Larry, correct. There is no real evidence that vaccines cause autism, and yes, Wakefield lied. And it was not proven through youtube links.

  169. #169 Sid Offit
    July 26, 2011

    my lack of fear of attacks by advocates of pseudoscience like Sid Offit,

    .

    Orac, I have immense respect for you policy allowing open dialogue on your blog. As to my support of pseudoscience, I’d be appreciative of any examples of my resorting to pseudoscience since I go to great lengths to document my assertions with evidence accepted throughout the scientific community.

  170. #171 Sid Offit
    July 26, 2011

    your policy, not you policy

  171. #172 larry
    July 26, 2011

    Totally ignores the health status of newborns because it’s cost effective.

    http://mdm.sagepub.com/content/13/1/4.abstract

  172. #173 larry, yesterday, in the Smartvax thread
    July 26, 2011

    “This site is a waste of my time”.

  173. #174 Becky
    July 26, 2011

    My kids had chicken pox back in the pre-vaccine days. It was horrible. My little girls screamed each time they had to urinate from the pox on their genitals. They didn’t want to eat because of the pox in their throats. They ran fevers. The itching was unbearable, to the point I had to pin socks over my 2 year olds hands so she couldn’t scratch. Benedryl and Tylenol did little to help. They survived without complications or even scars but it is not something any child should have to suffer with when a vaccine will prevent it.

  174. #175 larry
    July 26, 2011

    Actually it is a waste of my time.

  175. #176 larry
    July 26, 2011

    Becky,
    Really sorry to hear about your children’s suffering. So painful. I am certainly not
    anti-vax but am for freedom of choice and education.
    Do you feel you were pressured into not vaccinating? Parents have to be
    comfortable in their choices because they are going to have to live with their
    decisions. I would never tell anyone what to do.

  176. #177 Chris
    July 26, 2011

    larry, are you a bit lost? Do you really think that youtube videos and an almost twenty year old paper that concludes “Implementation of universal vaccination should be considered in North America, contingent on vaccine price reduction…” are convincing?

    Perhaps your time would be better spent actually reading on the subject. You should start with the book Vaccine by Arthur Allen, and then Polio, an American Story by David M. Oshinsky, followed by Flu! by Gina Kolata and The Great Influenza by John Barry. If you find the words in those books too difficult your local community college should offer adult literacy classes.

  177. #178 brian
    July 26, 2011

    @ Denice Walter

    You wrote: “I have no need of a kill file.”

    Well, I don’t, either–but I’m enjoying the use of one. Although I used to do as you do and simply scroll down to see if I wished to read a comment, the killfile script discussed here simply makes that action just a bit easier. If I encounter a post labeled, “Comment by Ashtanga London blocked,” I have the options of continuing to scroll down, unblocking that single post, or (perhaps temporarily) removing the author from the killfile. That would also apply to posts by, for example, augie, Th1Th2, or Jake, and to any others who seem to me to be analogous to drunks at the next table in a favored restaurant. I’m a guest here, and I can’t demand that the proprietor exclude people who have repeatedly acted in a way that I believe marks them as ignorant boors, but the killfile provides an option that is, I think, preferable to simply visiting less frequently.

  178. #179 larry
    July 26, 2011

    Becky,

    Sorry for the mistake-just realized you said pre-vaccine days. My mother was very
    lucky. She had mumps, measles, chickenpox-she said it was a nuisance and every one that she knows had no problem- My child is selectively vaccinated and is
    very healthy but that was my choice.

  179. #180 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    July 26, 2011

    I got chicken pox back in the day – and President Kennedy was assassinated the first day.
    Don’t tell me it’s a mild illness.

  180. #181 Chris
    July 26, 2011

    Beckyalvarez, my three kids also got chicken pox before the vaccine (just the year before). It also included my six-month old daughter. Oh, she was so miserable! Plus my oldest was so sick he wet his bed, which caused his pox to inflame.

    I did not get much sleep for almost a month.

  181. #182 DJ's Take Control
    July 27, 2011

    Psorta psilly but nonetheless,

    Hey Orac, how can psychcentral get away with this bad science reporting? I’d love to see you rip it apart, no-one does it better :)

    http://psychcentral.com/lib/2010/adhd-and-marijuana/

  182. #183 lilady
    July 27, 2011

    @ Becky: Chris and I consider ourselves fortunate that our children who had medical problems, pulled through their episodes of chicken pox. Within two hours of the first appearances of a few poxes, my son had his first dose of Acyclovir to lessen the severity of the disease. The prescription was phoned into the pharmacy and he didn’t expose anyone in the doctor’s office.

    At the time my son was living in a group home and could have exposed his roommate and others during the time he was asymptomatic and infectious…fortunately none of his housemates got sick. A few years after his case of chicken pox, the varicella vaccine became available and his roommate and the other medically labile housemates were tested for a history of the disease as were the staff employed at the facility and all who were vulnerable got the immunization.

    When the vaccine became available, it was mandatory to be tested and vaccinated at the health department where I was employed. I had no recollection of the disease from early childhood, was tested and found to have a high immune titer.

    None of the doctors or nurses where I worked would ever want to put anyone at risk for this sometimes serious disease.

  183. #184 Composer99
    July 27, 2011

    Mephistopheles O’Brien gets +1 Internets for his chickenpox story.

    Oh noes! Teh pox causes teh shootingz!!1!1

  184. #185 Venna
    July 27, 2011

    My youngest two children received the chicken pox vaccine. My older four didn’t because it wasn’t available yet for them. They all suffered through chicken pox in varying degrees of severity. None of them were hospitalized, but I had serious concerns about my oldest who ran a fever of 104 for a week that wouldn’t come down no matter what I did. She didn’t get many pox though, only 5 or 6, and my younger two (who were there at the time) didn’t get sick at all. Then when the next bout hit my family, my boys (three of them at the time, youngest was 9 months old) got it but my oldest didn’t. It was torture for me to watch them suffer through it and nothing I could do about it so yeah, when that vaccine was available, I didn’t hesitate at all to have my younger two get it.

    I’m a little confused about the shingles thing. I was under the impression, again this could be wrong since it came from the anti-vax world I was raised in, but I have heard it from others also, if you had chicken pox as a child, you couldn’t get shingles as it’s the same virus. Someone told me the only reason it’s called shingled and not chicken pox is to remove the stigma of an adult having a ‘childhood’ disease. It sounds silly now but when I first heard it (I was much younger) it made sense, in an arrogant adult sort of way. Please correct if this is wrong because I had chicken pox when I was an infant but that was a long time ago now.

  185. #186 Chris
    July 27, 2011

    Venna:

    I was under the impression, again this could be wrong since it came from the anti-vax world I was raised in, but I have heard it from others also, if you had chicken pox as a child, you couldn’t get shingles as it’s the same virus.

    That seems to be a common misconception. You can get shingles because you actually had chicken pox. Like most herpes viruses it really does not go away. It really only goes dormant, only to reactivate when the immune system is compromised (like during times of stress).

    It is thought that being around children who have chicken pox keeps the adult’s immune system activated against the herpes zoster (what the call the shingles/chicken pox virus). So with fewer children actually getting chicken pox, the vaccine is a good substitute.

    My children will hopefully be among the last generation to be eligible for shingles since they had the disease the year before the vaccine was available. There is more information here:
    http://www.cdc.gov/shingles/about/overview.html

  186. #187 Venna
    July 27, 2011

    @ Chris

    Thanks for the link! Another question though… Since chicken pox and shingles are a herpes virus, what about a person who has herpes simplex B (I believe that is the one that results in cold sores, not the STD). A doctor told me once before that I had it and that it’s hereditary. I’ve had bouts of severe cold sores most of my life, mostly when I was younger. Some out breaks left some obvious scars. They can still catch me off guard but they are much farther apart in frequency. Any relation at all? I have been told that L-Lysine can decrease the frequency and severity of herpes break outs/cold sores. Any medical/science studies about this?

  187. #188 lilady
    July 27, 2011

    Hi Venna: Chicken Pox A/K/A Varicella Zoster Virus is a form of herpes. Now you know herpes…oral, genital and chicken pox is “the gift that keeps on giving”. The varicella zoster virus because it is a type of herpes infection, stays dormant on the dorsal root ganglia of the peripheral nervous system and appears as shingles A/K/A herpes zoster.

    There is a recently developed shingles (zoster) vaccine that has been approved by the FDA for those over fifty and the existing vaccine is recommended for ages sixty and over. It is protective for those who have had chicken pox to prevent the reactivation of the zoster virus.

    I find your “case reporting” of your oldest child interesting. When my daughter was about four years old and all her friends were breaking out with the poxes, she had a very mild case of the poxes (about 6-8) and I considered myself fortunate that she didn’t have a serious case of chicken pox. Obviously, the few poxes did not provide her with immunity and a few years later she was blooming all over with full-on chicken poxes. You might consider this and suggest that your child when she next sees a doctor, request a titer for varicella zoster to confirm she has had the virus.

  188. #189 Chris
    July 27, 2011

    Different virus. Same family, but still different. It says so in the link.

    Kind of like the fact that you can get influenza over and over again. They are still influenza viruses, but there are enough differences that your immune system is not quite tuned enough to protect you from different forms.

  189. #190 Chris
    July 27, 2011

    Weird, it shows my comment in the list on the left had side of this page, but it does not show up.

    Shorter form: there are different kinds of herpes virus (like lilady says: “the gift that keeps on giving”), just like there are different kinds of influenza viruses.

    Even if you had one type of influenza, it does not mean you are immune to another influenza virus. That also applies to the variations of herpes viruses.

  190. #191 Chris
    July 27, 2011

    Hello, Jacob.

  191. #192 lilady
    July 27, 2011

    Who gives a damn you must be kidding. Orac allows all sorts of trolls to post here. The only time he has moderated comments, after ample warnings, is when a troll dwells off-topic with dozens of postings or posters who use sock puppets. Here’s a hint for you; go visit Age of Autism to seek restrictive postings.

    People with autism that I know and who post here are delighted with Orac’s blog because of his fine analyses of the issues associated with autism and his dissection of the bogus theories that are out in cyberspace.

    Orac, a respective cancer surgeon and oncology researcher makes the time to lay out a veritable feast of science for us each day. You remind me of the free-loading uninvited guest who gobbles up the food then trashes the host. Stop being a troll, it it unseemly.

  192. #193 herr doktor bimler
    July 27, 2011

    he censors anyone’s attempts to bring up treatment options that are safe and effective
    That Orac, wielding his control of the Internet, closing down other people’s blogs if they mention the treatment options he wants to suppress! Is there no end to his abuses of power?

  193. #194 lilady
    July 27, 2011

    @ Venna: Cold sore are commonly called Herpes I and those “below the belt” are called Herpes II. Sometimes, with certain sexual practices, Herpes I and II show up in different places.

    There are oral medications prescribed for both types and anti-viral salves in cream base that are also prescription medicines for cold sores. Most people feel a tingling or pain in the prodrome (asymptomatic) period and having the prescribed salve on hand. Just check the internet for “cold sores-antivirals” for the names of them. I have a friend who had a bad spell of multiple cold sores and swears by the prescribed salve because it lessened the size of the sore and shortened the outbreak time.

  194. #195 Psorta Psychic
    July 27, 2011

    I psorta psense that was the resident pot head, who became hot headed because he got pcensored. It just psorta pseems that way.

  195. #196 Venna
    July 27, 2011

    I didn’t know, until this post, that chicken pox and shingles were a herpes virus. I wonder how many other people don’t know. I wonder if the name was changed from chicken pox to herpes if parents would be so eager to have pox parties to expose their children to it. I mean, if someone had cold sores, you could want your child to become infected with that. Chicken pox is essentially the same thing. Perhaps a new awareness campaign should be launched to educate people to what it really is, because knowing that I think would steer a lot of people away from purposefully infecting their children with herpes virus. Just a thought.

  196. #197 Venna
    July 27, 2011

    Oops, typorama… I meant to say if someone had cold sores, you WOULDN’T want your child … Sorry about the confusion.

  197. #198 Chris
    July 27, 2011

    All you really need to know is where to look, like here:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/shingles/default.htm

    Where it says:

    Anyone who has had chickenpox can develop shingles because VZV remains in the nerve cells of the body after the chickenpox infection clears and VZV can reappear years later causing shingles.

  198. #199 delurked lurker
    July 27, 2011

    Pedantic troll is pedantic

  199. #200 Militant Agnostic
    July 27, 2011

    he censors anyone’s attempts to bring up treatment options that are safe and effective

    Your unhinged off-topic rantings, persecution paranoia and perservating sock puppetry are not exactly a good advertisement for the safety and efficacy of your preferred “treatment option”.

    What we are seeing on this blog is what happens when tax cuts lead to reduced infrastructure spending. Bridges fall into disrepair leaving trolls with nowhere to live. As a result they start infesting science blogs. Please won’t someone think of the trolls. Homeless trolls are everyone’s problem.

  200. #201 machintelligence
    July 27, 2011

    The term “shingles” has an interesting origin: it is a corruption of the latin word “cingulus” or girdle. The disease was named for the typical girdling pattern of the rash.

  201. #202 dmall observation
    July 27, 2011

    @Militant Agnostic:

    I think part of the pot troll’s problem is that it was unable to get a supply of the right dose of the right strain.

    So you are really showing lack of comprehension and ignorance of both psychiatry and pharmacology if you think his performance on this blog is a valid test.

    Did you notice how many people said he wasn’t asperger’s? I guess if he really was asperger’s then we’ve all proved him right, in a way.

  202. #203 Shingles Itself
    July 27, 2011

    When singles mingle in the dingily dell they get tingly shingles and foxglove makes them well.

    Well, dead. But at least they can’t infect anyone else :)

    My skool, the old skool, too kool for your shoal.

  203. #204 Julian Frost
    July 27, 2011

    Orac, I think Jacob is sockpuppeting again.

  204. #205 lilady
    July 27, 2011

    @ Venna and others: Ignore the sock puppets and anyone who recommends any “natural” treatment or vitamins for any sort of herpes outbreak. Antivirals, among them Acyclovir mentioned in a prior that was used for my son’s chicken pox, is one of those FDA approved treatments.

    Also, before the licensing of the vaccine, when natural disease was prevalent and most often acquired in early childhood, there were still some younger women who hadn’t acquired it. These small number of women, when they became pregnant and then got the disease were in danger of having a baby with congenital varicella syndrome, which could leave the baby with lasting effects impacting on intellectual development.

    Treatment for women in the early stages of pregnancy and for the baby who whose mother developed varicella 5 days before or 2 days after delivery should receive prophylaxis VZIG (Varicella Zoster Immune Globulin). Children whose mothers have no (blood test) proof of immunity (or are perhaps vaccine refusers)and who are born at or less than 28 weeks gestation, should also get VZIG.

    VZIG is not readily available in the United States, but is available under FDA regulations as an “Investigational Use” immunological immune globulin, available through a Canadian manufacturer. Sometimes, it is also advisable for certain specific immune compromising conditions.

    Expectant mothers years ago only wished there was a vaccine for Rubella and some had children with congenital rubella syndrome.

    When anti-vaxers spread their woo, they never mention the dangers of denying children Chicken Pox vaccine; chicken pox is harmless, you know.

    Just how long will it take to have infants with congenital varicella syndrome being reported as a consequence to the anti-vaxers activities?

  205. #206 William Stewart
    July 27, 2011

    I should look this up myself, but since I’m lazy I’ll ask:
    Is it true, as I believe I have heard, that the chicken pox virus can remain “in the nerves” for decades and later cause trigeminal neuralgia?

  206. #207 lilady
    July 27, 2011

    @ William Stewart: See our postings above for shingles that are caused by an earlier case of chicken pox. The neuralgia caused post shingles is called “postherpetic” neuralgia and it can be extremely painful, last for months or years and it extremely debilitating.

  207. #208 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    Chris,

    It is thought that being around children who have chicken pox keeps the adult’s immune system activated against the herpes zoster (what the call the shingles/chicken pox virus). So with fewer children actually getting chicken pox, the vaccine is a good substitute.

    No stupid fool. Just like any other vaccine, the herpes vaccine is a second serving of VZV for herpes-loving people like you. Regardless of whether the adults are again exposed to VZV from wild or vaccine type, it will only lead to an infectious process. Hey dumbo, listen, children with active varicella infection do not protect, they infect. Geez. Also it is not the reason because there are fewer children getting chicken pox but instead on the contrary, every one year old children or so are deliberately infected with VZV which would qualify them for herpes later in life. Yup, you’ve created a batch of infected people, thanks to vaccine, who will eventually graduate with a diploma on Herpes. Hence, tada….the shingles vaccine for the blind!

    Educate yourself and let go of your superstitious belief.

  208. #209 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    Venna,

    I didn’t know, until this post, that chicken pox and shingles were a herpes virus. I wonder how many other people don’t know.

    Don’t worry. I knew it from your very first post that you are one of those pretenders who squeal rather than talk.

  209. #210 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    Venna,

    Perhaps a new awareness campaign should be launched to educate people to what it really is, because knowing that I think would steer a lot of people away from purposefully infecting their children with herpes virus. Just a thought.

    I’m sure you’re ignorant not knowing that shingles qualification also includes deliberate VZV vaccination you’re rigorously promoting among children.

  210. #211 Venna
    July 27, 2011

    @ Thingy

    I knew form the first post I read of you that you are insane and seem to actually live in the Land of La La rather then inhabit the real world like the rest of us. Time for you to go away because you really add nothing to the discussion other then the laugh factor.

    You remind me of a woman in a training class for a job I had years ago (working for General Motors) when she asked the trainer, in all seriousness, “There’s more parts to a car then the wheels?” DUH!!

  211. #212 lilady
    July 27, 2011

    @ Venna: Stay away (ignore) any and all postings from he/her/it whose name shall not be spoken. He/she/it is a one-trick pony with bizarre verbiage word salad and getting very frustrated that we are carrying on discussions while ignoring any troll postings.

    Remember Rule # 14 Don’t feed the trolls.

  212. #213 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    National data on deaths for which varicella was listed as an underlying or contributing cause were obtained from the Mortality Multiple Cause-of-Death records from the US National Center for Health Statistics.

    And the immediate cause of death is almost always iatrogenic. No doubt about it.

  213. #214 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    Orac,

    More evidence for the effectiveness of vaccines

    How about giving your herd some hard evidence of the effectiveness of varicella vaccine in causing chicken pox and herpes?

    Give your best shot.

  214. #215 JohnV
    July 27, 2011

    You’re the only one who says that because you’re the only one who is stupid and defines “infection” in that idiotic manner.

  215. #216 Chris
    July 27, 2011

    Thingy must have written the Htrae dictionary.

  216. #217 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    JohnV,

    You’re the only one who says that because you’re the only one who is stupid and defines “infection” in that idiotic manner.

    No most people thrive with deliberate ignorance and will choose to remain that way like living in a fantasy land.

    And you are stupid not to know this:

    J Immunol. 1989 Jan 15;142(2):636-41.

    T lymphocyte cytotoxicity with natural varicella-zoster virus infection and after immunization with live attenuated varicella vaccine.

    Varicella-zoster virus (VZV) specific cytotoxicity was investigated during acute primary VZV infection, in naturally immune subjects and after vaccination with the live attenuated varicella vaccine by using T cell cultures (TCC) generated by stimulating PBMC with VZV Ag and autologous VZV-superinfected lymphoblastoid cell lines as targets. Lysis of VZV-infected lymphoblastoid cell lines was observed by TCC from acutely infected subjects, naturally immune subjects, and recipients of the varicella vaccine. [...]The demonstration of their persistence long after primary VZV infection may indicate a role for CTL in restriction of viral replication during episodes of VZV reactivation from latency.

    I know, I know. Every time I feed these hungry pigs with Science, they are gonna stop squealing and will remain quiet. Fact.

  217. #218 Beamup
    July 27, 2011

    As if we needed any more proof that the moron can’t read simple English.

  218. #219 René Najera
    July 27, 2011

    @Th1Th2

    I bet you $1 you have no clue how to translate what you just quoted into plain language. That is, you don’t know what you just quoted. You thought it supports your position that the vaccine is an infection, but you failed miserably, even with the bold typeface to emphasize something.

    You think that the first sentence is saying that “vaccination with the live attenuated varicella vaccine” caused the “acute primary VZV infection”. It doesn’t. It is giving you a list of three items that were investigated:
    1) Cytotoxicity during primary VZV infection,
    2) Cytotoxicity in naturally immune subjects, and
    3) Cytotoxicity after vaccination.

    It’s called English. We speak it here in the States. (We try to, anyway.)

  219. #220 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    Beamup,

    As if we needed any more proof that the moron can’t read simple English.

    Of course, idiots like you CAN read simple English. Now read this:

    Epidemiol Infect. 2007 August; 135(6): 883–886.
    Published online 2007 June 11. doi: 10.1017/S0950268807008849

    The pathogenesis of zoster was unclear until the modern age, when it was shown, using molecular techniques, that exactly the same virus that caused the primary varicella-zoster virus (VZV) infection (either natural or from vaccine) causes zoster [1].

  220. #221 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    Rene,

    You think that the first sentence is saying that “vaccination with the live attenuated varicella vaccine” caused the “acute primary VZV infection”. It doesn’t. It is giving you a list of three items that were investigated:
    1) Cytotoxicity during primary VZV infection,
    2) Cytotoxicity in naturally immune subjects, and
    3) Cytotoxicity after vaccination.
    It’s called English. We speak it here in the States. (We try to, anyway.)

    English is not the problem fool! It’s just that you are blind and ignorant. It’s called the Comma! This one—->[,].

    Varicella-zoster virus (VZV) specific cytotoxicity was investigated during acute primary VZV infection, in naturally immune subjects and after vaccination with the live attenuated varicella vaccine[...]

    As discussed above there are two sources of infectious VZV that causes primary infection: 1. natural 2. from vaccines

    Comma baby comma,,,

  221. #222 Richard Smith
    July 27, 2011

    I couldn’t find my wallet this morning, so I searched the bedroom, the living room and the car.

    Apparently the bedroom was both part of the living room and in the car. I did not know that.

  222. #223 Todd W.
    July 27, 2011

    Ooh! Time for a grammar lesson. Th1Th2, please tell me the difference in meaning between these two sentences (look closely at the punctuation):

    Varicella-zoster virus (VZV) specific cytotoxicity was investigated during acute primary VZV infection, in naturally immune subjects and after vaccination with the live attenuated varicella vaccine by using T cell cultures (TCC) generated by stimulating PBMC with VZV Ag and autologous VZV-superinfected lymphoblastoid cell lines as targets.

    and

    Varicella-zoster virus (VZV) specific cytotoxicity was investigated during acute primary VZV infection, in naturally immune subjects and after vaccination with the live attenuated varicella vaccine, by using T cell cultures (TCC) generated by stimulating PBMC with VZV Ag and autologous VZV-superinfected lymphoblastoid cell lines as targets.

    One of these has the meaning that René provided and one has the meaning that you provided. Which is which?

  223. #224 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    Richard Smith,

    I couldn’t find my wallet this morning, so I searched the bedroom, the living room and the car.
    Apparently the bedroom was both part of the living room and in the car. I did not know that.

    Haha. As usual, Rule #2, analogies to the rescue. Why not, they can’t argue with straight Science so they need an escape mechanism. But here’s something that confirms your sheer ignorance.

    Herpes Zoster Ophthalmicus
    Natural History, Risk Factors, Clinical Presentation,
    and Morbidity

    Thomas J. Liesegang, MD

    Herpes zoster is the second clinical manifestation of VZV infection and occurs only in individuals who have had primary VZV infection (varicella) by either wild-type or vaccine-type VZV.

    Damn infection-promoters! Shame on all vaccinators!

  224. #225 herr doktor bimler
    July 27, 2011

    Grammar lessons: the Oxford comma.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma

  225. #226 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    Todd W.,

    Ooh! Time for a grammar lesson. Th1Th2, please tell me the difference in meaning between these two sentences (look closely at the punctuation):

    The gist of the argument is that Rene created an ambiguity in his assertion where he cannot prove it:

    1) Cytotoxicity during primary VZV infection, [So? Where did the infectious VZV come from?]
    2) Cytotoxicity in naturally immune subjects [caused by wild-type VZV]
    3) Cytotoxicity after vaccination. [caused by vaccine-type VZV]

    Rene is clearly clueless in number 1 and does not understand Science.

  226. #227 René Najera
    July 27, 2011

    So, at this point, he’s basically just mad-Googling anything and everything that he can find and sorely misreading what he finds.

    Herpes zoster is the second clinical manifestation of VZV infection and occurs only in individuals who have had primary VZV infection (varicella) by either wild-type or vaccine-type VZV.

    Notice the OR in the statement. You CAN get a PRIMARY (initial, first, never before until now) infection with either A) the wild-type virus or B) the vaccine-type virus. People with compromised immune systems know “B” to be true with regards to the attenuated viruses of any vaccines. However, your immune system has to be really, really compromised.

    The rest of the world only has to worry about A) the wild-type virus. For that, there is a vaccine. As a result, you can have an infection with either A) the wild-type virus OR B) the vaccine-type, but not both.

    Listen, folks, English is my second language, and I’m getting tired of giving this troll so many lessons in usage of the language. Is there any way we can find out his address to send him the Elements of Style or some such?

    By the way, someone owes me a dollar.

  227. #228 Richard Smith
    July 27, 2011

    I did not know that grammar was one of the sciences. Not only that, but when the argument itself is poorly constructed, there’s no sense in addressing the science until a sensible argument is made.

    Analogies are useful when communicating with people for whom facts are far over their head. Especially when even their large intestine is over their head.

  228. #229 René Najera
    July 27, 2011

    Rene is clearly clueless in number 1 and does not understand Science.

    Ha! I laughed out loud at that one. Or “LOLd”, as the kids say nowadays.

    Here, let me write it slowly, so you may understand:

    1) Cytotoxicity during primary VZV infection, [So? Where did the infectious VZV come from?]{It came from unvaccinated individuals with an active infection.}
    2) Cytotoxicity in naturally immune subjects [caused by wild-type VZV]{These are subjects who have since recovered from the infection. This is not during the infection. It is after the infection.}
    3) Cytotoxicity after vaccination. [caused by vaccine-type VZV]{This is not during an infection because there is none. This is not after an infection because there was none. These subjects are perfectly healthy subjects who were vaccinated.}

    These three types of individuals are mutually exclusive.

    Do try to keep up, lad. It’s English. It’s not that complicated, is it?

  229. #230 Chris
    July 27, 2011

    There is a reason I claim Thingy lives on Htrae.

  230. #231 TBruce
    July 27, 2011

    Troll1Troll2 does not speak English. He/she/it speaks its own language, which is impossible to translate into anything that makes sense to the other 6 billion people who share our world. Replying to Tr1Tr2 is the ultimate in futility.

  231. #232 herr doktor bimler
    July 27, 2011

    To sum up: in the abstract of a publication, the authors followed normal comma usage (“[1], [2] and [3]“) rather than the Oxford comma usage (“[1], [2], and [3]“).

    Someone cites this as evidence that [2] and [3] belong together, as if — against all reason — the authors have asserted them to be identical.
    One can always check the text of the publication, and of course this turns out not to be what the authors mean…

  232. #233 Beamup
    July 27, 2011

    Worse than that, actually. The Thing claimed that *1* and 3 were the same thing.

  233. #234 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    Rene,

    Notice the OR in the statement. You CAN get a PRIMARY (initial, first, never before until now) infection with either A) the wild-type virus or B) the vaccine-type virus.

    Oh the stupidity. It’s “OR” because you cannot vaccinate a person, primarily, with active natural varicella infection….(Remember acute primary VZV infection?)

    People with compromised immune systems know “B” to be true with regards to the attenuated viruses of any vaccines. However, your immune system has to be really, really compromised.

    …nor someone with compromised immune system. That’s barbarism. But hey, since vaccinators are modern-day barbarians, they will still proceed in promoting primary varicella infection, regardless of individual risks because telling them that it’s just “priming” would sound good in the ears of ignorant parents when in reality, in means primary varicella infection.

    The rest of the world only has to worry about A) the wild-type virus. For that, there is a vaccine.

    A vaccine you’re promoting to make people qualify for herpes. Nice one.

    As a result, you can have an infection with either A) the wild-type virus OR B) the vaccine-type, but not both.

    You’re just repeating the same nonsense. Anyway have you ever heard of re-infection with VZV despite having been naturally immuned or vaccinated?

    Listen, folks, English is my second language, and I’m getting tired of giving this troll so many lessons in usage of the language. Is there any way we can find out his address to send him the Elements of Style or some such?

    Trans: I love herpes and I promote it. That’s English.

  234. #235 Composer99
    July 27, 2011

    The troll-Blight continues unabated.

  235. #236 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    Rene,

    1) Cytotoxicity during [acute] primary VZV infection, [So? Where did the infectious VZV come from?]{It came from unvaccinated individuals with an active infection.}

    Idiot. That would be number 2. It’s clear you’re ignorant about immunology when infection-induced cytotoxicity is elicited during the acute phase of the infection. That’s so disingenuous of you to delete “acute” from the original post.

    2) Cytotoxicity in naturally immune subjects [caused by wild-type VZV]{These are subjects who have since recovered from the infection. This is not during the infection. It is after the infection.}

    If this after the infection, then cytotoxicity is irrelevant. HMI would then be assessed. This means the naturally immuned subjects are the ones with active primary wild-type varicella infection.

    3) Cytotoxicity after vaccination. [caused by vaccine-type VZV]{This is not during an infection because there is none. This is not after an infection because there was none. These subjects are perfectly healthy subjects who were vaccinated.}

    Indeed, you are a germ-denialist. Worse, you even deny cytotoxic response.

  236. #237 Rene Najera
    July 27, 2011

    Troll, you’re not making any sense. How am I a germ-denialist? I’m both a germ and a denialist?

    Or did you mean a “germ denialist”, who is someone that denies germs? (Bad hyphen usage.)

    I suggest you take a break, clean off all the spittle from your keyboard, get some sleep, wake up tomorrow morning and go take some reading comprehension courses at the local community college, and then come back and try to argue moot points with the big boys. How about it, big guy? I know you can do that AND finish your potty training as well. Deal?

    There’s a treat in it if you do.

    And, for those of you keeping score at home, the score is Meaning Of The Word “Infection” 7 – Troll 0.

    (HINT: It has to do with disease states.)

    Lastly, calling Varicella zoster “herpes” is like calling me “orangutan” because we’re both in the same taxonomic family. (He should get some basic science along with those reading comprehension classes.)

  237. #238 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    July 27, 2011

    A little friendly* advice, Thingy—you’re talking to no-one but yourself with this nonsense, because no-one else here accepts your idiosyncratic definition of the word “infection” as: “anything to which the attention of your immune system has been called.”

    So if you have multiple sclerosis, have you been “infected” with myelin? If you have lupus erythematosus, have you been “infected” with collagen? If you have rheumatoid arthritis, have you been “infected” with synovial cartilage? I’ve got some news for you, Thingy—by your definition, you’ve been “infected” with tens of millions of different things in your lifetime. Better hide under the bed!

    *Not intended to be a factual statement.

  238. #239 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    CG,

    Or did you mean a “germ denialist”, who is someone that denies germs? (Bad hyphen usage.)

    That was intentional. It means you’re mercurial. You are an infection-promoter on one end and a germ denialist on the other end.

    I suggest you take a break, clean off all the spittle from your keyboard, get some sleep, wake up tomorrow morning and go take some reading comprehension courses at the local community college, and then come back and try to argue moot points with the big boys. How about it, big guy? I know you can do that AND finish your potty training as well. Deal?

    Big boys? Nah. Just boys(??) with big ego and tons of projection and reaction formation.

    Lastly, calling Varicella zoster “herpes” is like calling me “orangutan” because we’re both in the same taxonomic family. (He should get some basic science along with those reading comprehension classes.)

    “Herpes” sounds attractive than “zoster” like “priming” is to “primary infection”. Do you have any violent reaction to that or do you prefer the more common herpetic term called shingles? What now herpes-lover?

  239. #240 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    Rev,

    A little friendly* advice, Thingy—you’re talking to no-one but yourself with this nonsense, because no-one else here accepts your idiosyncratic definition of the word “infection” as: “anything to which the attention of your immune system has been called.”

    Infection applies to pathogens or disease-causing microorganisms. Now, take another look at your inane examples as to why educated people would not call them infections. Neither do I.

    Got more fairytale examples?

  240. #241 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    July 27, 2011

    Now, take another look at your inane examples as to why educated people would not call them infections. Neither do I.

    “Educated people” on the one hand, you on the other—now you’re getting it, Thingy.

    Btw, the only reason my examples are “inane” is because they follow your idiotic definition of “infection”. Yes, they’re inane. Very good. You’re halfway there. Now tackle your circular definition of “pathogens or disease-causing microorganisms” as “things causing infection” and “things causing infection” as “pathogens or disease-causing microorganisms”. I’ll take question-begging for $200, Alex!

  241. #242 Th1Th2
    July 27, 2011

    Now that I don’t hear anymore grunting and squealing from these Science-deprived creatures, it only means they are full.

    It’s amazing how Science can solve world hunger.

    Till next time.

  242. #243 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    July 27, 2011

    Now that I don’t hear anymore grunting and squealing from these Science-deprived creatures, it only means they are full.

    Translation: “Lalalalala, I can’t hear you!”

    Sounds like I really penetrated her thick hide this time.

  243. #244 Rene Najera
    July 27, 2011

    Oh, I’m sorry? Is someone writing about infections without really knowing the true definition of the word?

    Just because you call something an infection doesn’t make it so, herpes-lesion.

    (See what I did there?)

  244. #245 W. Kevin Vicklund
    July 28, 2011

    For anyone that’s confused about the experiment that the troll is misrepresenting, here is a summary in layman’s terms of what they did. They took blood from three groups of people: 1) those with an acute primary infection (wild-type), 2) those who had had an acute infection in the past (wild-type), 3) those who had been vaccinated in the past (LAV-type). They then cultured these blood samples, and added cells infected with VZV (wild-type). They then measured the ability of the white blood cells to kill the infected cells (cytotoxicity), as well as how indiscriminate they were in killing. Apparently, they were quite interested that the CD4+ T-cells were expressing CTL in all the groups – the last sentence of the abstract the troll quote-mined (he withheld about half of it) alludes to the long-lasting CTL memory and how it may have a role in preventing shingles.

  245. #246 StuartG
    July 28, 2011

    Back to Orac’s original…

    I’ve seen children hospitalised with varicella. I’ve felt helpless as one died in spite of everything we could do.

    The vaccine isn’t (yet) on the schedule here. When it is, I’ll be one of its greatest supporters. Anything that will prevent such distress and agony is worth it.

  246. #247 MikeMa
    July 28, 2011

    In spite of the admonitions to not feed the trolls, I skip their comments and still learn much from the responses. I do understand it gets tedious but it is still helpful.

  247. #248 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 28, 2011

    For anyone that’s confused about the experiment that the troll is misrepresenting, here is a summary in layman’s terms of what they did.

    Thank you, WKV! That clarifies a great deal, and as a side bonus, it does show how silly Goofus is when it insists that this abstract means all three groups are identical.

  248. #249 triskelethecat
    July 28, 2011

    @W. Kevin Vickland: nice summary but for those of us who either have not learned or forgotten their immunology, would you please explain what CTL is? I have forgotten most of the abbreviations.

    @StuartG: Yeah, I wish my kids could have had the vaccine over the disease. But I’m glad that they have at least aquired immunity. One of the saddest sights I saw in obstetrics was a young woman with chickenpox, near term, in the ICU fighting for her life (baby died of congentital chicken pox after birth, the mother barely made it with a lot of sequelae; don’t know if she ever fully recovered). I bet if you had asked her or her family, they would have jumped at the chance of a vaccine.

  249. #250 W. Kevin Vicklund
    July 28, 2011

    Gah! I garbled the bit about CTL. I should know better than to post when I’m that tired. CTL are cytotoxic T-lymphocytes, aka killer T-cells, that kill off infected cells. After infection is resolved, most die off, but some are retained as memory cells, which are capable of quickly differentiating back into active CTL when a new infection is detected.

    Here’s the portion of the abstract most relevant to CTL:

    CD4+ CTL may function as an important primary host response in acute varicella. Immunization with live attenuated varicella vaccine induced VZV-specific, memory CTL responses comparable to those of naturally immune subjects. The demonstration of their persistence long after primary VZV infection may indicate a role for CTL in restriction of viral replication during episodes of VZV reactivation from latency.

  250. #251 René Najera
    July 28, 2011

    Mr. Vicklund, thanks for that. If I understand correctly, that study and others are clarifying the misconception that the vaccine causes shingles directly, or primarily. In other words, the live attenuated virus (LAV) doesn’t somehow reactivate later and cause shingles.

    Shingles comes from the wild-type infection remaining dormant. With less and less wild-type out there because of immunization, older adults do not get to “boost” their immune system and keep the wild-type virus at bay. This leads to shingles.

    The shingles vaccine, then, is an attempt to artificially do this “boosting”. Correct?

  251. #252 Todd W.
    July 28, 2011

    @Thing

    Still waiting for your answer as to the difference between the two statements. You asserted that “during acute primary VZV infection, in naturally immune subjects and after vaccination with the live attenuated varicella vaccine” meant that vaccination caused acute primary VZV infection, but that is not at all what the paper stated. You messed up on your reading comprehension because you did not understand the structure of the sentence. So, again, tell me the difference in meaning between these two:

    Varicella-zoster virus (VZV) specific cytotoxicity was investigated during acute primary VZV infection, in naturally immune subjects and after vaccination with the live attenuated varicella vaccine by using T cell cultures (TCC) generated by stimulating PBMC with VZV Ag and autologous VZV-superinfected lymphoblastoid cell lines as targets.

    and

    Varicella-zoster virus (VZV) specific cytotoxicity was investigated during acute primary VZV infection, in naturally immune subjects and after vaccination with the live attenuated varicella vaccine, by using T cell cultures (TCC) generated by stimulating PBMC with VZV Ag and autologous VZV-superinfected lymphoblastoid cell lines as targets.

  252. #253 lilady
    July 28, 2011

    @ W. Kenneth Vicklund: Thanks for the clarification of the CTL memory cells; your explanation jogged the memory cells in our brains to recall what we learned in immunology classes and in clinical practice.

    @ Rene Najeri: The ACIP Recommendations for zoster vaccine state that there is a boosting of immunity for adults who all had (estimated at 99 % by age 20) childhood chicken pox upon exposure to our children, who before licensing of the Varicella vaccine, acquired the disease. ACIP experts say these exposures boost our immune systems for approximately 20 years.

    Yes ACIP acknowledges that a slight bump up for the occurrences of zoster is to be expected because we lack the exposure to the pool of kids with chicken pox, since the wide-spread availability and use of varicella vaccine for young children past one year of age.

    Now, if we could only find out the secret location of the “chicken pox parties”, that anti-vax parents arrange to get their kids immunized with the far better actual virus, get ourselves invited to them and play with the kids with poxes, we could get the 20 year boosting benefit…just kidding.

  253. #254 W. Kevin Vicklund
    July 28, 2011

    @Rene 220

    Mr. Vicklund, thanks for that. If I understand correctly, that study and others are clarifying the misconception that the vaccine causes shingles directly, or primarily. In other words, the live attenuated virus (LAV) doesn’t somehow reactivate later and cause shingles.

    Not exactly. What it is testing for is whether the chickenpox vaccine will provide long-lasting protection against itself. Remember, this was back in 1989, when there was still a reasonable debate about whether to make the varicella vaccine part of the childhood schedule. One of the legitimate concerns was that it would provide protection from wild-type primary infection, but not from reactivation – the killer cells responding to the vaccination would not be able to target the types of cells that harbor latent VZV infection. This experiment provides evidence that they can, and that the protection is long-lasting. It’s a consideration that most vaccines don’t have to take into account.

    You can get shingles from the vaccine. That said, the incidence rate for shingles after vaccination is about 1/3 to 1/4 that of the wild-type incidence rate, the cases of shingles are much milder, and when DNA samples are taken, it is often wild-type virus that is actually causing the shingles (which means that the vaccine was only partially effective). Note that since the “due diligence” method the troll promotes has a failure rate of 90%+, the odds that a person will experience shingles more than doubles if they don’t vaccinate and live where VZV is endemic, and are many times more likely to experience a severe case.

  254. #255 Th1Th2
    July 28, 2011

    Beamup,

    Worse than that, actually. The Thing claimed that *1* and 3 were the same thing.

    It’s a known fact. Re-read #189.

  255. #256 Th1Th2
    July 28, 2011

    Kevin,

    For anyone that’s confused about the experiment that the troll is misrepresenting, here is a summary in layman’s terms of what they did.

    Layman’s terms? Then read #189 and #193.

  256. #257 Th1Th2
    July 28, 2011

    Kevin,

    Apparently, they were quite interested that the CD4+ T-cells were expressing CTL in all the groups – the last sentence of the abstract the troll quote-mined (he withheld about half of it) alludes to the long-lasting CTL memory and how it may have a role in preventing shingles.

    Dude, if you wanted to prevent shingles then you must prevent primary VZV infection. Apparently, the vaccinated and the naturally immune are already qualified for shingles. It’s just a matter of time.

    How fortunate are the unvaccinated and the uninfected.

  257. #258 Th1Th2
    July 28, 2011

    Rene,

    If I understand correctly, that study and others are clarifying the misconception that the vaccine causes shingles directly, or primarily. In other words, the live attenuated virus (LAV) doesn’t somehow reactivate later and cause shingles.

    Hahaha. I can smell the fear. Unfortunately sir, you’re carrying the indelible evidence of the virus. Sorry but you can always pray.

  258. #259 Th1Th2
    July 28, 2011

    Rene,

    Shingles comes from the wild-type infection [and from vaccines] remaining dormant. With less and less wild-type out there because of immunization, older adults do not get to “boost” their immune system and keep the wild-type virus at bay. This leads to shingles. The shingles vaccine, then, is an attempt to artificially do this “boosting”. Correct?

    Just looking at the ignorance of these people is simply amazing. Imagine that they have reached this stage of their adulthood and yet they are still full of superstitious beliefs and myths. Unbelievable. Please re-read #193.

    And kindly define “boost”? Is this some kind of a pogo stick? Talk in Science please.

  259. #260 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    July 28, 2011

    How fortunate are the unvaccinated and the uninfected.

    Of course, once enough are unvaccinated, everyone will get infected.

    Sorry but you can always pray.

    Yes, that will be your only recourse to try and stay uninfected once you’ve talked enough people into staying unvaccinated. Good luck!

  260. #261 herr doktor bimler
    July 28, 2011

    Then read #189 and #193.

    I’ve decided to wait for the movie.

  261. #262 Th1Th2
    July 28, 2011

    Todd W.,

    meant that vaccination caused acute primary VZV infection,

    Again, it’s a fact. Both the wild-type and the vaccine-type VZV cause primary VZV infection and shingles. Read 189 and 193. Sorry bad news for you and for your herd.

  262. #263 Th1Th2
    July 28, 2011

    lilady,

    Now, if we could only find out the secret location of the “chicken pox parties”, that anti-vax parents arrange to get their kids immunized with the far better actual virus, get ourselves invited to them and play with the kids with poxes, we could get the 20 year boosting benefit…just kidding.

    Just kidding? No, go ahead and do it. Practice what you’ve been preaching here fool!

  263. #264 Krebiozen
    July 28, 2011

    How fortunate are the unvaccinated and the uninfected.

    Fortunate? They can never travel abroad, will never see the sun rise over the Nile, trek through the Thar Desert on camel back, or browse in a Moroccan souk, unless they either risk their lives or get vaccinated. They can’t travel by public transport or by airplane. They have to run, holding their breath, from the room if anyone coughs or sneezes. They have to live in constant fear of a return of diseases like measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox etc., that are extremely unpleasant or even life-threatening for adults. Fortunate my ass!

  264. #265 lilady
    July 28, 2011

    Thingy why don’t you get a new script? We are all so unimpressed with your broken record and your unique germ theories.

    Guess what Thingy you are harboring herpes zoster infection…it hangs out in basal ganglia cells of the peripheral nervous system. In your case with a damaged central nervous system, you might be harboring herpes zoster “lower down” where your rudimentary brain is located and where you pull your factoids out of.

    Now take your vile germ-ridden body back to the cave and your sock puppetmaster. Terminal disinfection doesn’t work for herpes zoster…or measles.

  265. #266 Th1Th2
    July 28, 2011

    Kevin,

    What it is testing for is whether the chickenpox vaccine will provide long-lasting protection against itself.

    Wha…wha…whaaat? So you gave them the virus and you’re also against the virus that you just gave. No wonder vaccination is a form of immunological masochism.

    One of the legitimate concerns was that it would provide protection from wild-type primary infection, but not from reactivation – the killer cells responding to the vaccination would not be able to target the types of cells that harbor latent VZV infection.

    Varicella vaccination would not prevent wild-type infection and latency because by the time the naive have acquired the vaccine virus, primary infection would set in, followed by latency and reactivation (caused by the vaccine-type VZV.)

    This experiment provides evidence that they can, and that the protection is long-lasting. It’s a consideration that most vaccines don’t have to take into account.

    Of course, because the vaccinated are sleeping with the enemy. They carry the virus that you’re promoting.

    You can get shingles from the vaccine.

    I wonder why the unvaccinated and uninfected can’t get shingles. Hmmm…must be…

    That said, the incidence rate for shingles after vaccination is about 1/3 to 1/4 that of the wild-type incidence rate, the cases of shingles are much milder, and when DNA samples are taken, it is often wild-type virus that is actually causing the shingles (which means that the vaccine was only partially effective).

    Liar. Here’s some Science dude:

    Epidemiol Infect. 2007 August; 135(6): 883–886.
    Published online 2007 June 11. doi: 10.1017/S0950268807008849

    The only explanation can be that zoster is due to reactivation of latent virus acquired during the primary infection. It is not caused by reinfection with VZV.

    Now stop barking up the wrong tree. You got the squirrel in your own backyard.

    Note that since the “due diligence” method the troll promotes has a failure rate of 90%+, the odds that a person will experience shingles more than doubles if they don’t vaccinate and live where VZV is endemic, and are many times more likely to experience a severe case.

    The unvaccinated and uninfected don’t qualify for shingles. We don’t have that you have…the squirrel. Sorry. Try again.

  266. #267 brian
    July 28, 2011

    Ah! The Firefox/Greasemonkey/killfile combination blocked seven posts by Th1Th2 in just over an hour! This is great.

  267. #268 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    July 28, 2011

    The unvaccinated and uninfected don’t qualify for shingles. We don’t have that you have…the squirrel. Sorry. Try again.

    Again with the freakin’ squirrels! Listen closely, Thingy:

    If. Enough. People. Fail. To. Get. Vaccinated. YOU. WILL. BE. INFECTED.

    End of story.

  268. #269 brian
    July 28, 2011

    Eight!

  269. #270 Th1Th2
    July 28, 2011

    Rev,

    Again with the freakin’ squirrels! Listen closely, Thingy:
    If. Enough. People. Fail. To. Get. Vaccinated. YOU. WILL. BE. INFECTED.
    End of story.

    You’re an infection promoter; that’s your job.

  270. #271 lilady
    July 28, 2011

    @ The Very Reverend: Thingy is infected and harboring herpes zoster…vile germ-ridden cave dwelling sock puppet.

  271. #272 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    July 28, 2011

    You’re an infection promoter; that’s your job.

    That’s some weapons-grade projection there, you imbecile.

  272. #273 Gray Falcon
    July 28, 2011

    Th1Th2 isn’t really aware that it’s possible to get infected without the use of vaccines.

  273. #274 lilady
    July 28, 2011

    @ The Very Reverend: If you analyze the fool’s statements such as:

    “You’re an infection promoter; that’s your job.” and compare them to Ugh Troll’s, you will come to the conclusion that Thingy is the sock puppet of the Ugh Troll.

    Thingy comes “out to play” when Ugh Troll does his frequent disappearing acts…usually when Ugh troll is queried about his education and gainful employment.

    Thingy/Ugh Troll will always offer support to other resident trolls who post here, but never supportive of each other’s postings…simpleton mind power at work…to think that throws us off the trail.

    Why am I even replying to the vile germ ridden, herpes zoster harboring Thingy…I feel dirty even looking at my laptop screen at the Thing’s postings. I have to “terminally disinfect” the laptop now.

  274. #275 Yoga Teacher Training
    July 28, 2011

    It is impossible to make a point to people who will ‘not be swayed by evidence, data, science, or reason.’ A senseless outcry, based on what they belief, may create repercussions that many people will suffer from. It is even possible that those who have no sound basis for their stand will be those who argue the loudest and become heard. Just my two cents…

  275. #276 Chris
    July 28, 2011

    Stupid spammer is still stupid.

  276. #277 lilady
    July 29, 2011

    @ Chris: Stupid sock puppet know-it-all spammer is still stupid sock puppet know-it-all spammer.

  277. #278 Ashtanga London
    July 29, 2011

    If you should ever find yourself lucky enough to go on a paradise yoga holiday, I urge you to get all the important vaccines. If for no other reason than they won’t let your kids attend the local nursery without them ;)

    As for Malaria tablets, yuk. I’ll take my chances with the mozzies (fine in Mysore or Koh Samui, don’t try try this in the Congo).

    This school (which I don’t work at) teaches woo-free yoga and Sanskrit : http://kpjayi.org/

  278. #279 Ashtanga London
    July 29, 2011

    Germ story:

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=scientists-discover-that-antimicrob-2011-07-05

    Scientists Discover That Antimicrobial Wipes and Soaps May Be Making You (and Society) Sick

  279. #280 Roger
    July 29, 2011

    Chris@61
    There are people like my sister and I who both had shingles for the first time,in our thirties.I’ve seen people here who have gotten it in their twenties.

    The younger you are the more relapses you get of it.I would say that it should be optional to people starting at college age.

  280. #281 Chris
    July 29, 2011

    Interesting point, Roger. Considering my biology professor got shingles as a graduate student. It happened during a particularly stressful period, which is common with those who get shingles.

  281. #282 Jarred C
    July 29, 2011

    Chris, an old girlfriend of mine had shingles in her teens. She still has shingle scars on her head near her right temple.

  282. #283 Chris
    July 29, 2011

    Jarrad C, yikes!

  283. #284 Politicalguineapig
    July 29, 2011

    *Raises hand* I’m one of the twenty-somethings that had shingles. Mine manifested as a case of Bell’s Palsy. One of the worst weeks of my life.

  284. #285 tielserrath
    July 29, 2011

    I remember intubating a previously well toddler who developed chicken pox encephalitis. It had been having continuous seizures for an hour when it arrived at hospital. A fit healthy child now severely intellectually disabled and need in 24hr care 12 years later.

    I think his parents would recommend the vaccine, too.

    Just a question (too much trolling upstream to search through; I’m at work and therefore no killfile), Are humans the only vector for these viruses? What’s the chance of eradication?

  285. #286 Th1Th2
    July 29, 2011

    tielserrath,

    Just a question (too much trolling upstream to search through; I’m at work and therefore no killfile), Are humans the only vector for these viruses? What’s the chance of eradication?

    Hey let me tell you something. This is not the right time to ask questions. Can’t you see they are in ignore mode and currently in a state of shock and disbelief of course this is after an ignominous defeat. So if I were you I’ll give your friends sometime to recover. Although I’m not optimistic they will recover.

  286. #287 TBruce
    July 29, 2011

    Troll1Troll2:

    Cineplex just called, you didn’t get the job.

    They said your projection skills are awesome, but you keep playing the same reels over and over – backwards.

  287. #288 Jarred C
    July 29, 2011

    As for Malaria tablets, yuk.

    Seriously. I had to take those for nearly a year as a preventative. Did you know that the medicine you take to treat malaria is the same medicine you take as a preventative? I had to take it when I was deployed to Iraq. My entire unit had GI problems the entire year. It was especially a problem when the only bathrooms we had available were miles away. And when you’re done, you have to take another medicine to counteract the malaria medicine (sorry, I don’t know what they’re called). Because of this second medicine, we were told that we were not allowed to donate blood for three years.

    Scientists Discover That Antimicrobial Wipes and Soaps May Be Making You (and Society) Sick

    Yeah, I’ve known about that for years. You’re basically creating super-bacteria. I was especially shocked when anti-viral wipes came out a few years ago! I don’t even know if they still sell/advertise those, anymore. As for the article’s basic premise – that antibiotic soaps actually cause people to be mildly sick more often – I’m really not surprised.

    The article also talks about triclosan. I’ve been told by Dr. Arlene Blum to avoid triclosan in toothpaste (this was a little over two years ago); apparently it’s used to battle gingivitis, but if you don’t have (or are not near having) gingivitis, then it does more harm than good.

  288. #289 Narad
    July 29, 2011

    If you analyze the fool’s statements such as: “You’re an infection promoter; that’s your job.” and compare them to Ugh Troll’s, you will come to the conclusion that Thingy is the sock puppet of the Ugh Troll.

    Nah. I’ve said it before, but I’ve spent enough time editing English-competent but nonnative speakers to pick up on some of Th1Th2’s tells. I don’t pay much attention to Augustine any more (viz., tell killfile to show his posts), but I don’t recall seeing any of the same markers.

  289. #290 novalox
    July 30, 2011

    @tielserrath

    AFAIK, I think that the varicella virus can also be carried by other primates, such as chimpanzees, orangutangs, and gorillas.

  290. #291 herr doktor bimler
    July 30, 2011

    Life is too short to conduct forensic textual analysis on comments just to tell if they’re coming from one annoying person or two.

    Are humans the only vector for these viruses?
    Wikipedia says that other primates are also prone to varicella.

  291. #292 Narad
    July 30, 2011

    Life is too short to conduct forensic textual analysis on comments just to tell if they’re coming from one annoying person or two.

    Oh, I have no intention of doing so. But those circuits ring all by themselves after thousands and thousands of pages.

  292. #293 Krebiozen
    July 30, 2011

    I came across this blog a while ago.
    Is this you Th1Th2?

  293. #294 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 30, 2011

    Yeah, I’ve known about that for years. You’re basically creating super-bacteria.

    Well, that’s only part of how antimicrobial soaps are apparently having deleterious effects in primary usage. Even if they weren’t exerting a selection pressure that encouraged the evolution of resistant strains, there’s indicators that they may be also damaging an already-existing defense against foreign bacteria.

  294. #295 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 30, 2011

    Krebiozen:  I can’t be sure, but I actually tend to lean away from the idea that they’re the same person, despite the very similar names and the similar dismissive attitudes towards vaccination.  

    Thingy has some very distinctive characteristics:  problems with English; an attitude that conversation is a bludgeon for hitting people over the head with what you believe rather than convincing others to believe it; her idiosyncratic belief that vaccination is infection.  That other blogger seems more fluent in English, seems to understand the value of putting together facts in an order aimed to support a conclusion (even if the facts and logic she employs are dubious), and most importantly, regards vaccines as something that could be made safely, a proposition our Thingy could never agree with.

    It’s rather a shame, actually; given the choice between the two, I’d rather have that other blogger here than Thingy.  We’d probably argue quite heatedly with her, but I’d rather argue heatedly with someone who can at least argue like an intelligent adult.

  295. #296 Th1Th2
    July 30, 2011

    This thread is done. The damage, unfortunately, is irreparable. I’ll go over at the SBM where my mythbusting continues and I’m expecting the same fate.

    Poor RI.

  296. #297 triskelethecat
    July 30, 2011

    So Brave Sir Robin is running away? Poor Thingy. Have fun on SBM where you also get your fallacies handed back to you in spades.

    I have always hated the proliferation of antimicrobial soaps, etc. I avoided them for years. My kids used plain (well, not so plain- Dove soap) to wash their hands before meals, etc. No unusual amount of illnesses as long as good hand-washing was in use. I can’t stand the women who run around with the wipes and Lysol. The scents make me ill, and I am waiting for the attack of the super bacteria.

  297. #298 Chris
    July 30, 2011

    On SBM she is claiming victory over RI, yet the only responses are reminders that she is a boring troll that should be ignored.

  298. #299 Lawrence
    July 30, 2011

    Of course, we could only be so lucky as to have her vacate the premises (for at least a while).

  299. #300 novalox
    July 30, 2011

    @Chris

    You have to admit, th1th2 delusional thinking and massive projection issues are worth a little chuckle, just to see how extreme to the Dunning-Kreuger curve she falls.

  300. #301 Jarred C
    July 30, 2011

    I can’t stand the women who run around with the wipes and Lysol.

    That was (still is) my mother. She also ran an in-home daycare center for nearly 20 years (newborn-3yo), with an average of 15 kids per day (mon-fri, 7am-6pm). So she was always a little obsessed with cleaning in order to help prevent illness among the day-care kids and her family.

    She’s retired now (which means that she only watches 2-4 kids per day), and every time I go back to visit her, she always apologizes for the mess in her spotless house.

  301. #302 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    July 30, 2011

    I honestly don’t think Augie and Thingy are the same person. Thingy is more obviously suffering from some psychological disorder, and probably isn’t American—at least English seems to be a second (or fifth) language for her. I suppose her deficit could be so profound it just seems that way.

    Augie is quite obviously an American, of a rather nasty right-wing Christianist type that would be fairly typical, except he’s chosen to identify with a movement that’s usually (rightly or wrongly) identified with the opposite end of the political spectrum. I suspect any signs of disordered thinking in his oeuvre are simply attempts to keep the cognitive dissonance from melting his brain.

  302. #303 Narad
    July 30, 2011

    Thingy is more obviously suffering from some psychological disorder, and probably isn’t American—at least English seems to be a second (or fifth) language for her.

    OK, I won’t visit the subject again. Th1Th2’s English is quite good, and, while having an idée fixe, it’s nowhere near as messed up as Augustine. If I had to, from the prepositional mix-ups, I’d guess German for Th1Th2. (I cannot rule out bias from having noticed its choice of INF-ß as an alter ego rather than finding an actual lc beta.) I haven’t noted any distinct issues with articles (swapping definite and indefinite, or simple omission), which mostly places it in Western Europe.

  303. #304 silvia
    August 2, 2011

    ..I read your article with great interest..I would like to understand how did you come to such ”comprehensive information” on this comprehensive site? Now what I would like to point out to you,which you might have missed,due to overwhelming data,when it comes to research,is one very obvious flaw in your posted article …If Varicella virus is not mild ,but truly dangerous & deadly..why is it then,that Varricella( CHicken pox) vaccine was never to this day part of UK’s vaccination shedule? This is interesting fact,that people in UK don’t need to be vaccinated,but people in the US (not sure about other countries),have mandatory Varicella vaccination??!…Now this brings me to my own conclusion-people in US must have different genetic makeup, to people in UK?..Now what about the rest of the world,it seems each country has got very different vaccination schedule…So what is very obvious here from this site,that person who wrote the article has not done their homework properly..Claiming Varicella being deadly in US..but mild enough in UK ( not used here) is very interesting fact indeed!..now I would like to scrutinize all vaccines & their schedules around the world..lets see what we”ll find..if this is science we need to rely on then I say..no thank you!

  304. #305 Chris
    August 2, 2011

    silvia:

    ..If Varicella virus is not mild ,but truly dangerous & deadly..why is it then,that Varricella( CHicken pox) vaccine was never to this day part of UK’s vaccination shedule?

    It is not because it is mild in the UK. Go up and read StuartG’s comment. It is apparently due to some strange fear of shingles, which is discussed in the previous comments.

  305. #306 lilady
    August 3, 2011

    @ Sylvia: I suggest you visit the U.K.’s equivalent of the CDC’s website, to ascertain the policy for not implementing varicella vaccine as a recommended childhood vaccine. We have many posters here from outside the United States…from Europe, the U.K., Canada, Australia and New Zealand…to name just a few.

    The CDC has the ACIP (Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices) with a huge number of experts on the actual committee as well as “advisors” who sit in on each quarterly meeting. The original recommendations for licensing for use and implementing their recommendations are available on their website, as well as all updated recommendations. Because the United States Public Health Departments (County and State) are all computerized any outbreak of vaccine-preventable diseases is reported quickly to the local health department and outbreaks of a serious nature such as measles within local jurisdictions or multi-state are immediately fully investigated and reported to the CDC, via the “Epi Info” computerized program. BTW laboratories, treating physicians, hospital staff are required to report to the health departments evidence of an infectious disease.

    As vaccine preventable diseases approach extinction (polio and now measles) they have the highest priority for reporting.

    Localities, State Health Departments and the CDC have the ability to determine the true efficacy of the newer vaccines, once they are used widely, post licensing field testing. Any episodes of breakthrough with one shot, may be cause to re-visit the one shot for life dosage…hence the recommendation to increase measles vaccine to a two dose series and the recent recommendation to switch from one dose to the two dose series for varicella immunization.

    I hope you followed Stuart G,’s comment that Chris provided you and that you find comparable agencies in the U.K. that determine which childhood vaccines are “recommended”…which are not…and the reasons behind those decisions.

    Well nourished children in Western countries are not more susceptible to childhood disease and their potential serious consequences and there are no “genetic” gene differences between kids in the U.S. and the U.K. to account for any increased risk to children who are not immunized.

  306. #307 Silvia
    August 3, 2011

    @lilady..Varicella is not vaccinated in many countries-Slovakia,Czech republic,Poland.UK..feel free to find more.The real reason behind reasons to vaccinate it US is this:
    Merck the maker of said vaccine convinced the US powers that be that this vaccine would decrease incidence of chicken pox and so save 4 billion dollars every year, savings made when mothers / carers would not need to take time off work. It was not bought in as a health measure!
    The virus was initially obtained from a child with natural varicella, then introduced into human embryonic lung cell cultures, adapted to and propagated in embryonic guinea pig cell cultures and finally propagated in human diploid cell cultures (WI-38).” -just an example

    Do you really want human and animal DNA injected into a baby? And would you use a product that has no control group and no benign placebo?

    Japan also has this vaccine and in both countries the far more serious Shingles has increased!

    The other potential problem with this vaccine is that it is given with the MMR so 4 live virus vaccines are given together. And if you know a dozen parents of autistic children you will have heard at least one story that their child had or was recovering from chicken pox when they had the MMR…this is pure scaremongering of people,we don’t need ”needle health”-what is needed = educate people how to eat healthy,starting with educating parents on nutrition & well being…Not feeding kids nutrient depleted food( cooked in microwaves!) and topping it with ”needle health! False & misleading advertising promoting unhealthy food as healthy- tricky food labeling,which becomes a crystal maze for an average person..this is absurd health policy & it needs to change.
    Lastly,the common cold is dangerous to those with seriously compromised immune system !!!!!

  307. #308 Krebiozen
    August 3, 2011

    I can also vouch for the fact that varicella is no milder in the UK than anywhere else. A fit and healthy young colleague of mine contracted chicken pox, having somehow avoided getting it as a child, and was very ill indeed. He was off work for 3 months. There are about 30 deaths every year in the UK from chicken pox, mostly in adults.

    There are several reasons the varicella vaccine is not yet routinely used in the UK, mostly related to cost. Cost of the vaccine in children, the expected increase in shingles in older people which would lead to demand for a vaccine in those older people, which would lead to even more cost. Remember all this would have to come out of the public purse, which is not exactly full at present. BTW, from what I have seen, it is not strange at all to fear shingles – it doesn’t look very alluring to me!

    I’m sure UK policy makers are watching to see what happens in the US. Sooner or later I hope and expect the varicella vaccine to become part of the routine vaccination schedule in the UK.

  308. #309 Silvia
    August 3, 2011

    ’Well nourished children in Western countries are not more susceptible to childhood disease and their potential serious consequences and there are no “genetic” gene differences between kids in the U.S. and the U.K. to account for any increased risk to children who are not immunized.’’
    MY comment with regards to difference in genetic makeup between two countries was a sarcastic remark to point out the ridiculous so called ‘’dangers’’ of virus in some countries but not the others! Hope I cleared this little misunderstanding for you…
    Now that brings me to first part of your statement: ’’Well nourished children In Western world’’…
    The fact- kids are not well nourished –simply because they eat mostly junk, nutritionally depleted food. They are less fit than generation was 50 years ago-physically& nutritionally…yes people did’t have as much 50 years ago,but they didn’t eat so much of processed,irradiated & GM food, food laden with pesticides & herbicides,therefore they were much fitter with no chronic & degenerative disease..So to feed our kids nutritionally depleted food& then topping it with toxic cocktail & animal DNA-in vaccines is a recipe for disaster-I don’t have to look at statistics, I just need to look around-at kids with eczema, chronic ear infections, ADHD, allergies,hayfever ME, Autism, obesity, birth defects, rise in cancers…not my kids,not vaccinated no allergies,no eczemas,no ear infections..very strong & healthy.

  309. #310 JohnV
    August 3, 2011

    Oh no, animal DNA in vaccines? What’s the problem Silvia? Scared of homologous recombinaltion tiniker?

  310. #311 Militant Agnostic
    August 3, 2011

    Silvia

    I don’t have to look at statistics, I just need to look around

    Translation – Don’t bother me with with facts and evidence, I have prejudices and opinions!!!

  311. #312 Vicki
    August 3, 2011

    No chronic and degenerative diseases fifty years ago? Maybe your parents and grandparents were in great health all their lives, but plenty of other people were living with things like multiple sclerosis, epilepsy, and heart problems. I can’t speak to the UK experience, but in the U.S. it’s not that we have more disabled kids than we used to: it’s that we don’t lock them up in institutions, they’re out and about, in school and on playgrounds and so on. That can look like “more degenerative diseases,” but it’s not.

    If you’re that worried about what your kids are eating, start a garden so you can give them food without the herbicides you’re worried about, and you can easily find a list of what they’d have gotten via rationing in 1946 or so. There is no law requiring you to go to the chip shop, or feed your kids Ribena or Coke or any of that stuff.

    You might also want to think about why my cat, in New York, is legally required to have a rabies vaccine, and my friend Maureen’s cat, in Kent, isn’t.

  312. #313 lilady
    August 3, 2011

    See no good deed goes unpunished. Unaware of Sylvia’s anti-vax feelings…and now other bizarre “theories”…I open a conversation with her and worked kinda hard to provided her with some great informative resources. See Sylvia, I am still on a learning curve about human nature…I don’t look for hidden agendas and devious human behavior…but I’m learning.

    Sorry guys, for being so trusting. Feel free to kick this troll around.

  313. #314 Th1Th2
    August 3, 2011

    ..If Varicella virus is not mild ,but truly dangerous & deadly..why is it then,that Varricella( CHicken pox) vaccine was never to this day part of UK’s vaccination shedule?

    Don’t expect Orac to respond to your query. He has since been hiding in latency. This thread died ages ago. Also, do your homework before posting questions because ignorant questions like that attract ignorant people.

  314. #315 lilady
    August 3, 2011

    Ignore delusional nasty troll who remains delusional and nasty.

  315. #316 Calli Arcale
    August 3, 2011

    Silvia:

    The fact- kids are not well nourished –simply because they eat mostly junk, nutritionally depleted food. They are less fit than generation was 50 years ago-physically& nutritionally…yes people did’t have as much 50 years ago,but they didn’t eat so much of processed,irradiated & GM food, food laden with pesticides & herbicides,therefore they were much fitter with no chronic & degenerative disease..

    It is a myth that children are generally undernourished in America today, with the exception of children in extreme poverty* and children who are being abused, who don’t get much to eat. They are getting enough of all the basic nutrients. The problem is that they’re getting too many of other things (e.g. calories, cholesterol, carbs, protein) and not nearly enough exercise.

    It is also a myth that kids fifty years ago didn’t eat”processed,irradiated & GM food, food laden with pesticides & herbicides”. Okay, maybe not much irradiated food, and the GM food was GM by the traditional method of selective breeding. But processed? Oh, my heavens yes. Ever seen a cookbook from this period? Pesticides and herbicides? Definitely. Fifty years ago was the 1960s, and pesticides were used much more indiscriminately than they are today.

    Kids definitely are less fit today, but I think the real culprit is our lack of exercise. We sit almost all the time now, and we do that to our kids too. In 1960, you might have half a dozen channels to choose from in a large market. Today, it’s hundreds. And we’re bored by most of them. We have huge DVD libraries, Netflix, On Demand, and also, of course, the Internet. Same thing we’re using here while we sit on our duffs and wonder why our kids are getting fat.

    That’s also probably a large part of why asthma, diabetes, and heart disease rates have gone up — lack of exercise is a significant risk factor for all three.

    * And there are more of these than most people realize. I fear that the current anti-obesity campaigns in school districts may be lethal to some of these kids, who currently get the majority of their nutrition through subsidized or free school lunches. If I had to pick, I’d rather have fat kids than starving kids, after all, but it’s not an easy thing to apply to a school lunch program.

  316. #317 triskelethecat
    August 3, 2011

    I want to know where Silvia grew up in the UK (and how old she is).IIRC, there was food rationing after WWII until the mid 1950’s. Those people weren’t getting good, healthy diets because the food wasn’t available.

    And, at least in the US in the 1960’s and 1970’s, I could easily point to

    kids with eczema, chronic ear infections, ADHD, allergies,hayfever ME, Autism, obesity, birth defects, rise in cancers

    I would say that diets were good in those days, at least in Silvia’s mind, few vaccines (DTP, smallpox) all her negatives didn’t (lol) exist back then.

    But I can name:

    kids with exzema (a classmate),
    chronic ear infections (myself),
    ADHD (several friends, not diagnosed as children but as adults – was not a “known” diagnosis back in those days), allergies and hayfever (my brother, several family members, many friends),
    autism (another classmate and several family members, not diagnosed but who surely fit the criteria of AS or Autism or PDD-NOS),
    obesity (several classmates),
    birth defects (she’s kidding, surely? WAY too many people/stories to relate),
    rise in cancers (OK – more kids live these days with cancer; in my childhood many of them died)

    Sure, good diets, exercise, modern plumbing all help. But they are not “alternative” in any way.

    It’s so nice that Silvia knows her children are protected because she has intelligent neighbors who immunize and therefore keep herd immunity up. I hope she never has to deal with the diseases she could have prevented.

  317. #318 lilady
    August 3, 2011

    @ Calli Arcale: Sylvia is a thick as a plank. Try asking “Plank” for some citations…then the fun and games will begin.

  318. #319 Chris
    August 3, 2011

    silvia:

    Do you really want human and animal DNA injected into a baby? And would you use a product that has no control group and no benign placebo?

    I answered you nicely and sincerely, and then you turned into this!

    There was probably a placebo research group for the varicella vaccine when it was developed more than twenty years ago in Japan. Though the children would not have been denied other vaccines.

    All you have to do is do a research of the relevant medical research in PubMed. But since you are just making a bunch of statements without providing any kind of evidence, I will assume that you prefer to make up or just parrot certain questionable websites.

  319. #320 Bronze Dog
    August 3, 2011

    I suspect the problem that leads to so many alties pining for the old utopias of the past is that they never really paid attention to their elders, in addition to ignoring the historical data.

    I remember back when I was a kid, reading the Adventures of Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn, as well as some of my grandmother’s other Mark Twain books, how much disease came up as a topic.

    My grandmother grew up during The Great Depression, and she saw the face of disease throughout much of her life. She took college biology, so she understood what was going on, and she was also a geneology buff with some publications about local families, so she knew about children dying from preventable diseases, and she knew about “off” children ending up institutionalized, out of public view. It probably didn’t help that “blame the mother” was often the public’s null hypothesis when it came to psychological oddities.

    Life was much harsher than it’s depicted in the movies. When I read trolls wishing for the “good old days,” it seems like they believe health is taken for granted, like in movies, where no one gets sick unless the plot says so.

    Lack of neurological problems? Well, I’m pretty confident that there’s a genetic side: I have Aspergers (diagnosed just last year, as an adult). It’s not an official diagnosis, but we’re convinced my dad has it as well: We’re quite similar in our behavior and modes of thought, and my mother had to give me a lot of the same social lessons she gave to my dad.

  320. #321 LW
    August 3, 2011

    My mother nearly died of chronic sinusitis in the Forties. My uncle suffered with asthma his whole life, starting in the Forties. My grandmother was the youngest of four children; so far as I know none of them had chronic diseases, but it’s hard to tell because two died in infancy of (now) vaccine-preventable diseases.

    Ah, the Good Old Days when people were so much healthier and didn’t have chronic diseases.

  321. #322 Antiquated Tory
    August 8, 2011

    @triskelethecat,
    Don’t know if it’s true but it’s common wisdom that the ration diet was the healthiest diet that Brits have had, maybe ever. What was rationed? Fat, sugar, bread (briefly postwar), white flour, dairy, meat, bacon, imported fruit. What was not? Domestic fruit and veg, fish (though during the war am not sure how much fish was coming in.) At the same time, since food was distributed according to ration points rather than bought for money, poor Britons may have had increased access to meat and dairy. I’m sorry though, I cannot dig up a decent cite. I’ll have to go back through my copy of Austerity Britain to see if there are any references in there.

The site is currently under maintenance and will be back shortly. New comments have been disabled during this time, please check back soon.