The “toxin gambit” on steroids and more

I had a really busy grant writing day today, and my brain is fried. What that means is that, even though there are some things that I could write about that would be really cool (as in studies), I’m just too tired to do it as I write this. So, as I settle down to my nightly ritual, I wondered what I could write about. Certainly, it had to be something amusing and something that doesn’t take too much effort for me to take on. Given that blogging is a marathon and not a sprint, there are times for really applying myself and times for slumming.

This is a time for slumming. Tomorrow might be too.

A couple of days ago, I found one of the silliest, most ridiculous, most brain-meltingly stupid invocations of the anti-vaccine canard that I like to call the “toxin gambit.” Basically, you can tell that an anti-vaccine propagandist is invoking the toxin gambit when he or she starts pointing to all sorts of scary-sounding chemicals in vaccines, even though those chemicals are in general present in only trace amounts that are more than safe at the levels present in vaccines. Sometimes, these chemicals will be normal products of metabolism, like formaldehyde, that sound really poisonous. Often, anti-vaccine propagandists will intentionally conflate hazards of chemical exposure due to high levels with the tiny amount of exposure that comes from vaccines. Sometimes they’ll choose a scarier-sounding term for a chemical based on a misunderstanding, such as when they claim that there is antifreeze in vaccines. It’s all designed to scare parents into thinking that vaccines are a toxic “witches’ brew” (and, yes, I’ve seen that term used) too horrible to inject into–gasp!–innocent babies. In any case, the silly example I found a couple of days ago did ramp up the stupid to 11, invoking the potassium chloride buffer in some vaccines as being something horrible because KCl can cause cardiac arrest and they use it for lethal injections. Never mind the multiple orders of magnitude difference in the amount of KCl in vaccines and what is necessary to kill. Forget about how it’s not uncommon to inject significant quantities of KCl directly into patients’ veins when using solutions like half normal saline with 20 mEq/L KCl.

The horror. The horror.

I thought that bit of idiocy from the Vaccine Resistance Movement was the most brain dead version of the toxin gambit I had seen, so much so that I figured I probably wouldn’t see its like again for a while. I didn’t even figure that, after a couple of vaccine posts, I’d be back on the topic again today. How wrong I was! Leave it to one source of pure quackery to outdo even the VRM. Yes, it’s hard to believe that it was possible, but it is. On the other hand, if there’s any website where you might find such a screed, it’s NaturalNews.com, which is exactly where I found it. True, it wasn’t Mike Adams, the Grand Poobah of Quackery himself, but in this case one of his minions stepped up to the plate quite nicely, in this case a woman by the name of Kaitlyn Moore, who entitled her homage to vaccine wingnuttery How vaccines are made: Monkey kidneys, spinal material, animal pus and more.

All I can say is: Wow.

After discussing how Edward Jenner developed the concept of inoculation from the pus from cow pox lesions, Moore really gets started. Of course, the reason Jenner used that is because it worked and because it was hundreds of years ago, before one could isolate antigens from the infectious agent. Heck, it was before anyone actually knew what caused smallpox, long before Pasteur was even born. So, yes, using pus from cow pox to inoculate people to prevent smallpox was a little bit disgusting, but it worked, and it worked well, even in a time when very little was actually known about what caused infectious disease. Yet, according to Moore, vaccines are even more disgusting now:

Tragically, even with all of the strides made in modern medicine, vaccination preparation has actually gotten worse. Original vaccinations were contrived by using the infected matter from another human being and introducing it into the body.

Trouble began once animals began to be used as hosts. Enter Dr. Jonas Salk and the race to develop a commercially viable polio vaccine. Salk and his peers concocted from a mad scientist brew of ingredients including the minced up spinal cord from a 9-year-old deceased patient, water, blood, flies, feces, and human cell matter. This mixture was injected into the brains of monkeys, most of which died instantly or became paralyzed.

Undaunted, Salk plugged away eventually creating the commercial version of the polio vaccine, developed in part from “the feces of three healthy children in Cleveland.”

Here’s the funny thing. If you Google “feces of three healthy children in Cleveland,” what you’ll find is a lot of anti-vaccine sites, one of which promotes the idea that SV40 viral contamination in the oral polio virus caused a child’s medulloblastoma. I note that it was very difficult to find a citation for this claim. It seems to be the sort of phrase that floats around the Internet without attribution. Finally, I did find an attribution:

A.B. Sabin, A.B. & L. Boulger, History of Sabin Attenuated Poliovirus Oral Live Vaccine Strains. 1 J. Biol. Stand. 115, 115-18 (1973).

Unfortunately, I can’t find this reference. I don’t know whether Salk actually did this or not, particularly given that it would make a lot more sense to try to isolate polio virus not from healthy children but rather from children with polio. I do know that, even if that’s how they isolated the virus, who cares? Yes, it sounds gross. Yes, it sounds disgusting that the sorts of broths and cells that viruses are sometimes grown in animal cells, most often tissue culture, which is a lot different than growing them in actual animal tissue or organs. Also remember that back in 1941 scientists were making it up as they were going along. Trying to find what sorts of cells and what sorts of medium were necessary to support the growth of the polio virus was an exercise in empiricism. It was pure trial and error until scientists found something that worked. To some extent, it’s still fairly empirical to find what works to support the growth of viral stocks.

As for the issue of SV40, it is true that in 1960 it was discovered that the rhesus monkey cells used to prepare some polio virus for vaccins were infected with the SV40 virus. SV40 was famous in the history of cancer in that it was the source of one of the early oncogenes. Thus, one anti-vaccine claim is that SV40-contaminated polio vaccine caused cancer; the problem is that several studies have failed to find any evidence that there is an increased incidence of cancer in people who received the contaminated vaccine (for example, this one). Yet, it’s the conspiracy theory that won’t die.

None of this stops Moore:

Cell matter is extracted from these hosts, combined with toxic chemicals like Thimerosol (mercury), formaldehyde, aluminum hydroxide and a variety of other substances, before being injected into our bodies (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pi… and www.vaclib.org/pdf/vaxcont2.pdf). The side effects are autism, diabetes, asthma, MS, SIDS, and more.

No, they are not. There is no compelling evidence connecting vaccines with autism, diabetes, asthma, or any of the other conditions listed above and a lot of evidence suggesting that they are not.

Then there’s this gem:

Award winning journalist Janine Roberts, author of Fear of the Invisible and a host of other papers developing into the truth behind vaccine development, discovered that “vaccines are not filtered clean, but suspension from the manufacturers incubation tanks in which the viruses are produced from substrates of mashed bird embryo, minced monkey kidneys, or the infamous cloned human diploid cells only scanned for a few known contaminates – while the unknowns remain just that — unknown.”

Even worse, the government has provided legal protection to the vaccine industry and their polluted products via FDA regulations, more specifically 21 CFR.

“Virus interaction can’t be controlled — by their very nature they are mutating organisms. There is a well-founded concern that these animal viruses are able to cross species lines and adapt to their new host environment.”

Except that these days we have very powerful tools (such as PCR) for detecting vaccine contamination and mutation in vaccine strains, and these tools are used. This theoretical concern is not one that is backed by any solid evidence, the fear mongering of Kaitlyn Moore notwithstanding.

On the other hand, minced monkey kidney and mashed bird embryo sure do sound tasty.

The bottom line is that it’s very easy to cause fear of vaccines using the toxin gambit because most people are pretty ignorant from a scientific standpoint. Even if they learned some science in high school or college, if they don’t use it they lose it. They rapidly forget, just as I’ve forgotten a lot of subjects that I took in college but don’t use now. Antivaccinationists know this and take advantage of it by finding scary-sounding names of chemicals and strange or disgusting-sounding cells, animal extracts, or whatever and making them sound even more disgusting.

Oh, well, I suppose I should be grateful Moore didn’t pull the “aborted fetal tissue” gambit.

Comments

  1. #1 Denice Walter
    October 15, 2011

    @ 184 above, I presented 4 real people who place at different points on a bell curve that measures a hypothetical factor : T & M are closer to the “average” than are P & D ( extremes). ( non-work related)

    Agashem, lilady, and T-reg illustrate how difficult interacting with a certain extreme truly is. We can learn through observing.

  2. #2 T-reg
    October 15, 2011

    @Denice: A sound observation.
    Just curious – what can you interpret about
    1. a person who keeps asking a question, but looks the other way when the answer is not to her/his liking?
    2. a person who, when answered, pretends that the answer was not given?
    3. one who changes the question when the answer was not to her/his liking?

  3. #3 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    1. Your original comment was regarding SAFETY OF KCl in vaccines.

    [Citation needed]

    2. I explained how it is safe. Go back and read it… the WHOLE of it.

    By your use of straw man, you have asserted that the KCl found in vaccines is safe.

    3. I have not said that KCl IN VACCINES is essential to the child’s needs. Please point out to me where I have said this.

    Of course, if you will let go of straw man, that will be your point. However, you’vee fallaciously compared the use of KCl in vaccine as akin to and I quote:

    The diet of a healthy child, and IV fluids given to a sick child (to maintain potassium levels), have a much higher content of potassium but it does no harm.

    Therefore, vaccine use is justifiable thus “essential”.
    Do you deny this?

  4. #4 The Christian Cynic
    October 15, 2011

    For crying out loud, justifiable ≠ essential. As you have been told probably hundreds of times before, words have meanings.

  5. #5 Lawrence
    October 15, 2011

    Insano-troll, are IV’s considered vaccines on your planet?

  6. #6 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    For crying out loud, justifiable ≠ essential. As you have been told probably hundreds of times before, words have meanings.

    Why the whine? I didn’t start this WHOLE straw man fiasco. For example, this:

    The diet of a healthy child, and IV fluids given to a sick child (to maintain potassium levels), have a much higher content of potassium but it does no harm.

    There were two case scenarios given. Kindly identify which is essential. Next, which one is justifiable.

  7. #7 Igor
    October 15, 2011

    @197: I resent that assumption. Despite being a non-native speaker, my command of the English language probably exceeds that of most natives. I can only credit Th with constructing grammatically complete sentences. As to their meaning, I’m still working on compiling delusional to English dictionary.

    @193: I was being sardonic, rather than merely joking. And I thought I was laying it on thick enough from the very start. I’d hate resorting to a header announcing an upcoming joke. That will certainly dampen my success as a professional funnyman.

  8. #8 T-reg
    October 15, 2011

    @thingy:
    citation: #18

    How is it “straw man”? Stop using this term. You obviously don’t understand what it means.

    My comments regarding diet and IV fluids were to establish KCl is given at doses (whether indirectly in diet or directly as IV fluids) which are magnitudes higher than the amount of KCl present in a vaccine. If you know ANYTHING about toxicology that itself should be sufficient to establish the safety of KCl in vaccines.

    I don’t see how you are interpreting that the KCl in vaccines is essential to the child.

    KCl is essential. Its essential source being diet (in a healthy person) and IV fluids or KCl syrup in a patient (as required).

    A vaccine is not given as a KCl supplement. A vaccine is given to confer immunity.
    I did mention that the amount of KCl in a vaccine is too small (1/1000th of RDA as calculated in #99). Thus a vaccine can never be used as an essential source of KCl.

  9. #9 lilady
    October 15, 2011

    In Thingy’s “world” (the streets and its hiatuses in custodial care) there is no science. It lives by its wits on the street and now with the onset of cooler weather, it will stay in custodial care in a psychiatric facility.

    It is a scam artist on public assistance and is a parasite. It has no education, no job in any field and its only connection to the real world is through posting its brain droppings here. It also has a psycho-sexual masochistic mental disorder by deriving its “jollies” from the derision heaped upon it…each and every time it posts here.

    Just a nasty, warped, delusional, uneducated, disease-promoting troll which needs “terminal disinfection”.

  10. #10 Agashem
    October 15, 2011

    Once again Thing-ding what do you believe?? Stop nit-picking at others’ ideas. Tell us your own.

  11. #11 Igor
    October 15, 2011

    For crying out loud, justifiable ≠ essential. As you have been told probably hundreds of times before, words have meanings.

    You’re in over your head here, even if Th concedes a non-essential KCl in vaccines does not mean the use is unjustifiable (see justification above), you’ll have to contend with the next revolutionary discovery that a vaccine actually infect recipients with the disease it seeks to prevent. Fear not, infectious individuals exhibiting no symptoms at the outset can still be avoided, probably through some bubble enclosure.

  12. #12 T-reg
    October 15, 2011

    @Igor: I’m sorry. I was just trying to drive home the point that a non-native speaker of English MAY be excused from incomprehension of a simple logic presented in a language he MAY not be very familiar with; but not a person whose first language is English.
    By the way, English isn’t my first language either… 🙂

    @Thingy:

    The diet of a healthy child, and IV fluids given to a sick child (to maintain potassium levels), have a much higher content of potassium but it does no harm.

    Quote mining again? The statement that follows:

    Hence if a VERY small fraction of that potassium is injected as a part of the vaccine administered, it is but a drop in the ocean and really DOES NOTHING TO UPSET the balance.

    BTW, NO ONE is saying that a vaccine is an essential source of KCl. Given that a vaccine contains 1/1000th of the RDA of KCl (calculated in #99) it can NEVER be an essential source of KCl.

    A vaccine is given to confer immunity, NOT as a source of KCl.
    KCl in a vaccine is neccessary to maintain the vaccine (#142). I.e. KCl in a vaccine is necessary FOR THE VACCINE, not the child.
    It however, is not toxic to the child.
    at that dose: Not essential to the child neither toxic to the child. But essential for the vaccine. Totally harmless.

  13. #13 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    @193: I was being sardonic, rather than merely joking. And I thought I was laying it on thick enough from the very start. I’d hate resorting to a header announcing an upcoming joke. That will certainly dampen my success as a professional funnyman.

    So you’ve only come to realize that it was only a joke because your “point” (which happen to be a joke) did not fit in. I see. And when non-native English speakers and the less intelligent understand your “point” and agree with you then your “point” is no longer a joke. How nice.

  14. #14 T-reg
    October 15, 2011

    @thingy:
    Do you realize what “Sardonic” means? It is to joke or be humorous in criticism of someone or something while driving home a point.

  15. #15 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    Fear not, infectious individuals exhibiting no symptoms at the outset can still be avoided, probably through some bubble enclosure.

    How would you know that individual is infectious?

  16. #16 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    @thingy:
    Do you realize what “Sardonic” means? It is to joke or be humorous in criticism of someone or something while driving home a point.

    The ultimate question is, did he make a point?

  17. #17 T-reg
    October 15, 2011

    yes, he pretty much did:

    While being sardonic, the point he made was that just as Water in the vaccine is not administered to cure thirst, KCl in the vaccine is not given as an essential requirement.

    The problem is you fail to comprehend anything which is a little more complex than simple statements made. Sometimes, you even exhibit difficulty in understanding simple statements.

  18. #18 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    Hence if a VERY small fraction of that potassium is injected as a part of the vaccine administered, it is but a drop in the ocean and really DOES NOTHING TO UPSET the balance.

    You do realize that you are merely arguing from ignorance ( no evidence, just sheer assumption), don’t you?

    BTW, NO ONE is saying that a vaccine is an essential source of KCl.

    But you claimed the KCl in vaccines is needed thus essential to humans, no?

    A vaccine is given to confer immunity,

    OK, this time you’re joking.

    KCl in a vaccine is necessary FOR THE VACCINE, not the child.

    Therefore, the KCl found in vaccines is NOT indicated whatsoever to benefit of the child, thus, it is not needed, right?

    It however, is not toxic to the child.
    at that dose: Not essential to the child neither toxic to the child. But essential for the vaccine. Totally harmless.

    So for you it’s OK to give KCl (from the vaccine) to a child even though not needed and indicated for as long as it wouldn’t cause harm. This, despite the fact, that you don’t have any evidence to support that the KCl (from the vaccine) can cause harm.

    I want to hear from a doctor’s point of view if this is even justifiable. Calling Orac.

  19. #19 Igor
    October 15, 2011

    How would you know that individual is infectious?

    Depends on the disease. If it’s tetanus, then anyone wandering off the sidewalk should be avoided. Staying on sidewalk is so easy even a toddler could do it.

    For everything else, I will ask from afar if they were vaccinated and therefore all infectious carriers. Then, I can either walk in the opposite direction, or beat them with a bat before I also catch the zombie plague.

    How would you avoid whatever you mean by “infection.” And remember to cover the mutated zombie virus.

  20. #20 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    While being sardonic, the point he made was that just as Water in the vaccine is not administered to cure thirst, KCl in the vaccine is not given as an essential requirement.

    He uses water as a cure for thirst. Valid. But since vaccines contain water but not an an essential source of hydration therefore the water in vaccines are not a cure for thirst. Valid.

    But here’s the problem and the straw man. He also assumed that the KCl in vaccine is a cure. For what?

  21. #21 Agashem
    October 15, 2011

    Who assumed what now? Thing-dong, you still need to say something of substance. KCl has been outlined, described, delineated and explained. Move on and make a point and explain yourself.

  22. #22 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    Jokester Igor,

    That’s all I have to say.

  23. #23 Agashem
    October 15, 2011

    Really? That’s it? You are going to run off and avoid the rest of the arguments here? By Darwin’s beard, how I hate a coward, especially a female one.

  24. #24 Igor
    October 15, 2011

    Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine someone would one day so painfully scrutinize a contention that water in vaccines serves some other purpose than treating dehydration. I would also like to point out that even though most foods contain some amount of water. Not an essential source, but eating a few stakes will stave off dehydrating to death. Drinking too much water from an essential source of water, whatever that is, may result hyponatremia diluting both essential and non0esential K and other electrolytes. Apparently, whether something is non-essential has little to do with its safety.

  25. #25 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    Really? That’s it? You are going to run off and avoid the rest of the arguments here? By Darwin’s beard, how I hate a coward, especially a female one.

    Let’s just say I don’t have any time for jokes. Take your talents somewhere else.

  26. #26 lilady
    October 15, 2011

    Thingy first brought up its “theory” about KCl in an IV solution being detrimental and playing its semantics game with Orac’s statement:

    “Forget about how it’s not uncommon to inject significant quantities of KCl directly into patients’ veins when using solutions like half normal saline with 20 mEq/L KCl.”

    In order to stir up the sh**, it throws out this inane posting:

    “I see what the problem is. Orac knows nothing about bedside Medicine. I can’t wait to see you try this on a newborn.”

    Posted by: Th1Th2 | October 13, 2011 11:37 AM

    As yet we have seen no proof of its sh** “theory”.

    So, Thingy why is KCl in one half normal saline IV solution detrimental?

    Also please inform us of:

    1. Your education

    2. Your professional licensing

    3. Your employment in any health care field

    See Thingy, the posters here are educated about electrolyte balances, isotonic, hypertonic and hypotonic IV solutions and the normal lab ranges for all the electrolytes. We all are in agreement about the appropriate use of KCl in vaccines and IV solutions.

    You on the other hand, fling sh** and are unwilling to back up your sh** theories. So you should be able to provide at least one citation to prove your sh**.

    We know your games troll and how you twist words and phrases for your own “jollies”…and you have been called out on your behavior. Time to put up or shut up.

  27. #27 Agashem
    October 15, 2011

    What in my post could ever lead you to believe I was joking? I am adamant. Please, you obviously do not understand humour, sarcasm or when someone is being sardonic or ironic. Should we now add you also have no idea when someone is serious?

  28. #28 Chris
    October 15, 2011

    Could we please ignore the most idiotic troll in the world? She is a manipulative delusional liar, and no amount of reason will penetrate her Htrae skull of welded steel that covers a vacuum.

  29. #29 Igor
    October 15, 2011

    @224: I was unable to completely ignore him/her. I did however manage to avoid reasoning with him/her. When you can’t even agree on settled word definitions, ridicule trumps futile reason.

  30. #30 Chris
    October 15, 2011

    Making up definitions for words is one of her favorite tactics. It is just one of the reasons she is a manipulative delusional liar. Please just ignore her.

  31. #31 Agashem
    October 15, 2011

    Alright, I will try. I don’t post much on here but I am really fed up with the Thing-a-ling and the fact that she won’t dilineate what she thinks. It is the worst sort of arguing so far as I am concerned. But I will ignore.

  32. #32 palindrom
    October 15, 2011

    Most of this comment string is basically a cautionary tale about what happens when you feed the troll.

  33. #33 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    Thingy first brought up its “theory” about KCl in an IV solution being detrimental

    First off, [citation needed] before you can proceed with:

    As yet we have seen no proof of its sh** “theory”.
    So, Thingy why is KCl in one half normal saline IV solution detrimental?

  34. #34 Gray Falcon
    October 15, 2011

    Post #18 on this very thread:

    Shut this thread down now before a newborn gets killed with a “not uncommon injection of significant quantities of KCl”. Anyway, this thread is another “toxin gambit” gambit and Orac will do everything he can to stay away from fire. Like KCl—it burns.

    This is why Th1Th2 cannot be reasoned with. If definitively shown she is in error, she will simply respond by declaring she never made that statement in the first place.

  35. #35 Sauceress
    October 15, 2011

    #159 Th1Th2

    blame Orac for his disingenuous attempt in #17 by asserting the KCl found in vaccines is an essential requirement for newborns, children and adults.

    #17 Orac

    I do note, however, that newborns do have potassium requirements:

    Does the deceit of this painfully clueless troll know no limit?

    #188

    Food vs non-food

    The potassium found in food or the KCl in vaccines?/blockquote>

    As usual he didn’t say anything if the KCl found in vaccines could cause harm in humans.

    As usual the troll has not provided any evidence that the KCl from the vaccine can cause harm in humans.

    Does anyone really believe that it even knows that the chemical structure of KCl used in vaccines is identical to that of KCl found in food sources?

    #214
    You do realize that you are merely arguing from ignorance ( no evidence, just sheer assumption), don’t you?

    Does Science Blogs have any sort of compensation scheme for damage to irony meters?

  36. #36 novalox
    October 15, 2011

    Does kaitlyn moore know anything about dosage?

    Heck, does she even know basic biology?

  37. #37 Sauceress
    October 15, 2011

    Does kaitlyn moore know anything about dosage?

    I screwed up the formatting of my post above (it needed more coffee) and was just about to add a bit that I left off…

    “This troll continues to show that it is completely ignorant dose/response relationships and yet it claims some sort of medical credential?
    Oh and my dog just told me that it’s really a neurosurgeon so I guess I’ll have to just take its word for that.”

  38. #38 Sauceress
    October 15, 2011

    Oh and my dog just told me that it’s really a neurosurgeon so I guess I’ll have to just take its word for that.

    Oooops..
    Reading over my shoulder, my dog now says “I did not say that! I don’t lie about my abilities. What I really said was…I want to go for a walk and now would be good”

  39. #39 lilady
    October 15, 2011

    @ Gray Falcon: Thank you for pointing out to the Thing that its statements need to be backed up by citations.

    Just another of its word semantics gambits, bogus sh** theories gambits and avoidance gambits…and we are all waiting for its information about its education, professional licensing and employment in the health care field.

    Has you seen the SaneVax website page where they have the results of that bogus internet survey that Orac wrote about:

    A survey administered by a German anti-vaccine homeopath (August 31, 2011)

    This is the “survey” I “participated in” by filling in data for imaginary children…one who received all his vaccines and was very healthy and one who received no vaccines and for whom I “ticked off” all the boxes for disturbing disruptive behaviors and many childhood illness. There is quite a difference in how they are presenting the survey and I don’t see any mentioning of the self-selecting biases of it being touted on anti-vax internet sites to parents of autistic children:

    New Study: Vaccinated Children Have More Than Twice the Diseases and Disorders Than Unvaccinated Children
    October 15, 2011 By Leslie Carol Botha Leave a Comment
    Journal of Natural Food and Health

    By Augie
    October 9, 2011

    Preventable Vaccine-induced Diseases

    A German study released in September 2011 of about 8000 UNVACCINATED children, newborn to 19 years, show vaccinated children have more than twice the diseases and disorders than unvaccinated children, and perhaps five times more of certain disorders.

    The results are presented in the bar chart below; the complete data and study results are here. The data is compared to the national German KIGGS health study of the children in the general population. Most of the respondents to the survey were from the U.S. (Click on the chart to see it better)

    (Notice that the article written on October 9, 2011 is authored by “Augie”.)

  40. #40 lilady
    October 15, 2011

    @ Sauceress: I have more faith in your pooch’s abilities who may or may not be a neurosurgeon, than I have in the troll’s sanity, honesty, education or ability.

  41. #41 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    This is why Th1Th2 cannot be reasoned with. If definitively shown she is in error, she will simply respond by declaring she never made that statement in the first place.

    If you’re going to “inject significant quantities of KCl directly into patients’ veins when using solutions like half normal saline with 20 mEq/L KCl” and there is no indication then that constitutes a medical malpractice. As I said, I’d like to see Orac doing that on newborns.

  42. #42 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    Does the deceit of this painfully clueless troll know no limit?

    Do you know Orac might be suffering from “first-paragraph syndrome”?

    For the first 24 hours, supplemental sodium, potassium, and chloride are not usually required.

  43. #43 lilady
    October 15, 2011

    Thingy you’ve been busted for your “games” of semantics…why don’t you provide the citations for NOT infusing KCl in half normal saline in a newborn or an adult…you might want to look up KVO infusion.

    How about answering my questions about your education, professional licensing and employment in a health care profession?

    Thanks for playing the game of semantics Thingy.

  44. #44 The Christian Cynic
    October 15, 2011

    For the first 24 hours, supplemental sodium, potassium, and chloride are not usually required.

    Which accords nicely with what W. Kevin Vicklund said before:

    Of course, one wonders why Thingy was focusing on newborns when there are no vaccines containing KCl that are normally injected before 6 weeks (Rotarix @ 6-24 weeks).

    Talking about newborns is clearly a red herring. (I’ll happily await accusations of using the “‘red herring fallacy’ fallacy.”)

  45. #45 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    Which accords nicely with what W. Kevin Vicklund said before:

    Read #69. Thank you.

  46. #46 The Christian Cynic
    October 15, 2011

    Read the rest of #240. Thank you.

  47. #47 Gray Falcon
    October 15, 2011

    Th1Th2, do you know what the phrase “not usually” means? It doesn’t mean “never”.

  48. #48 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    1. Orac said:

    I do note, however, that newborns do have potassium requirements:

    2. Red herring

    Wiki-

    A red herring is a deliberate attempt to divert a process of enquiry by changing the subject.

    3. Orac’s fallacy

    For the first 24 hours, supplemental sodium, potassium, and chloride are not usually required.

    At age 24 hours, assuming that urine production is adequate, the infant needs 1-2 mEq/kg/d of potassium and 1-3 mEq/kg/d of sodium. Extremely premature infants who develop metabolic acidosis may benefit from sodium acetate administration instead of sodium chloride.[9] Some evidence suggests that metabolic acidosis in preterm infants is primarily due to inadequate urinary acidification by NH4+ excretion and loss of bicarbonate.[…]

    Thank you.

  49. #49 Gray Falcon
    October 15, 2011

    So this means that newborns do need potassium, just that supplementation by IV is not usually needed. Nowhere does it say that it is never required.

  50. #50 The Christian Cynic
    October 15, 2011

    Thingy, I hate to feed you, but as a teacher, I have this everlasting hope for the ignorant to learn, so let me explain syllogistically (I know you hate them):

    1. Orac originally referred to “patients” generically, without reference to age.
    2. You were the first person to bring newborns and direct the conversation toward the potassium requirements of that group.
    3. The conversation then (at least for a time) became about newborns, and Orac responded to your allegation that he knows nothing about treatment of newborns (which is what you quoted in #244).
    4. Ergo, you diverted the conversation to a different subject altogether, which is a red herring.

    See how logic is done?

  51. #51 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    So this means that newborns do need potassium, just that supplementation by IV is not usually needed. Nowhere does it say that it is never required.

    And who are these newborns who require KCl supplementation? If you can answer this then you will recognize your fallacious argument.

  52. #52 Gray Falcon
    October 15, 2011

    And who are these newborns who require KCl supplementation? If you can answer this then you will recognize your fallacious argument.

    One that is severely premature, most likely. Again, though, this isn’t important. Your attempts to cast aspersions on Orac’s competence do nothing to change the fact that the KCl in a vaccine is not enough to cause harm in any way.

  53. #53 Sauceress
    October 15, 2011

    Neither there are newborns normally injected with KCl, you’re saying?

    Idjit!

    Urban Dictioary-

    Idiot
    Person with an intellectual barrier blocking them from obtaining average intelligence

  54. #54 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    1. Orac originally referred to “patients” generically, without reference to age.

    True.

    2. You were the first person to bring newborns and direct the conversation toward the potassium requirements of that group.

    Yes I started off with the youngest “patient”. Do you have any problem with that? Orac didn’t think so. He responded.

    One correction though, I did not “direct the conversation toward the potassium requirements of that group.” Orac did.

    3. The conversation then (at least for a time) became about newborns, and Orac responded to your allegation that he knows nothing about treatment of newborns (which is what you quoted in #244).

    My argument is on Orac’s lack of knowledge in bedside Medicine after he claimed that injection of “significant quantities of KCl directly into patients’ veins when using solutions like half normal saline with 20 mEq/L KCl” is something “not uncommon” because he implied that adults, like newborns, also have potassium requirements.

    4. Ergo, you diverted the conversation to a different subject altogether, which is a red herring.

    No. You forgot to mention that Orac expanded his “patient” group to children and adults as well. I followed him there. Yet he still failed to support his claim that “injection of KCl”, regardless of age group, is “not uncommon”.

  55. #55 Denice Walter
    October 15, 2011

    @ T-reg:

    In response to your questions: the easiest way to look at it is that people can focus upon the external or internal world. Occasionally, the internal focus sheds light upon the external which is then elucidated through language and symbols and then communicated to other people in that world- a great artist like James Joyce did this. Meanings and symbols can be shared.

    Mostly however, focus towards the internal world with its topical chimerae and idiosyncratic word meanings is not art but disability. Internal thoughts might be magnified and mis-identified as external; speech from others could be mis-interpretted or recalled to fit the internal pattern. Who can say what degree is volitional if the entire system is unreliable- all information is filtred through the internal template, distorting the original to fit an internal mold or definition. Meanings and symbols are idiosyncratic and difficult to interpret by others.

  56. #56 lilady
    October 15, 2011

    After Thingy took Orac’s original statement about adult KCl IV and switched it in its sick mind to a newborn to accuse Orac of incompetence, I provided an actual case at # 22 above…that of my newborn son, who required KCl in solution infusion while in the NICU.

    “The dreaded KCl is actually in vaccines. And, they actually infuse newborns on Digitalis with KCl in NICUs…wow.

    As I recall, my newborn son was on Digitalis due to a huge atrial septal defect and was also tachypniac, which was not TTN (Transient Tachypnea-Newborn), required KCl in a peripheral IV at the rate of 0.5 – 1 mEq/kg/hour. Hypokalemia in the newborn who is in respiratory distress and is on Digitalis is quite common in the NICU.

    Doh…there really is a difference in the dilution of 20 mEq KCl in half normal saline and the actual infusion rate of KCl per hour based on the infant’s weight in kilograms.

    Posted by: lilady | October 13, 2011 12:56 PM”

    I also posted above about other medical conditions in the neonate that would require KCl in solution infusions…as did other posters here.

    Why should we believe anything that this uneducated, unemployable, delusional says?

    Why doesn’t the pathological lying delusional troll provided us with its education, professional licensing and employment in the health care field?

  57. #57 Th1Th2
    October 15, 2011

    One that is severely premature, most likely. Again, though, this isn’t important.

    See? It’s either you will treat every newborn as severely premature to justify the use of KCl or that your self-recognition of your own mistake and fallacy is something not important.

    Your attempts to cast aspersions on Orac’s competence do nothing to change the fact that the KCl in a vaccine is not enough to cause harm in any way.

    You have no evidence to suggest that the KCl found in vaccines is “completely harmless”. Nada.

  58. #58 Gray Falcon
    October 15, 2011

    See? It’s either you will treat every newborn as severely premature to justify the use of KCl or that your self-recognition of your own mistake and fallacy is something not important.

    You were told repeatedly the KCl was not meant as a supplement, but as a way of preserving the vaccine. Do you really think you can just ignore that?

    You have no evidence to suggest that the KCl found in vaccines is “completely harmless”. Nada.

    We have a huge piece of evidence: the fact that a child would take in far more from other sources, and wouldn’t be harmed.

  59. #59 C. Sommers
    October 15, 2011

    This thread has been completely derailed by the troll. I enjoy lurking here on a daily basis, but having to parse thingy’s comments is starting to get tiring.

    Can we please ban him for the sake of polite, intelligent discourse. Nothing new can be learned from feeding the troll.

  60. #60 lilady
    October 15, 2011

    What happened to the citations about the deleterious effects of KCl in IV infusions and the deleterious effects of KCl in vaccines that the Thing should be providing. After it accused our host Orac of incompetence, it would be “appropriate” to provide those citations

    Thingy must realize (after thousands of its brain droppings postings) that it needs to provide citations.

    Why doesn’t Thingy provide information about its education, professional licensing and employment experience in the health care field?

    Just a pathological lying uneducated, unemployable delusion troll in need of “terminal disinfection”.

  61. #61 Jake Hamby
    October 16, 2011

    Th1Th2, you have a fascinating inability to reason about this topic.

    My expertise is in computer science, not biology or chemistry, and yet the idea that the tiny quantities of KCl in solution in these vaccines could pose any danger is foolish to me, and easily disproved, based on the sort of knowledge I learned in junior high science classes.

    Perhaps my experience with A.I. might come in handy here. As some of you know, Apple just released a new model of iPhone yesterday which includes an intelligent agent program named Siri that is based on technology originally developed at DARPA. It contains a fairly conventional voice recognition engine that converts speech to text, and then the agent software takes the English sentences and tries to figure out the meaning and perform the appropriate actions on behalf of the user’s commands.

    People have been trying to do this since the 1960’s, and the difficulty has always been loading enough information about the nature of reality and human society into the system in order for it to be able to understand sentences like, “My mother’s name is Ellen Jones. Call mom.” In that example, it has to know that “mother” and “mom” are synonyms, that they represent a relation between the speaker and another human being, and that the command “Call” means that the speaker wants to initiate a phone call with a person who is probably in the user’s phone book whose name matches (or is sufficiently similar to) “Ellen Jones”.

    That’s an extremely simple example, and even then there are ambiguities. What if there are two Helen Jones’s in the contact list? What if there’s one person with multiple phone numbers? In some cases, the probability is high and the agent doesn’t have to ask for more context. In other cases, it might ask for clarification from the user. This is all based on chains of probabilities, information learned from the user, and information about reality and human social concepts built into the software, which is known as an “ontology”.

    Back to the vaccine example. Th1th2, you seem to be incapable of parsing a chain of reasoning that the AI software in a new smartphone could probably figure out with just a few more rules in its knowledge base. So here is how I would explain this to that AI. For each of the early points, please assume that the normal human connotations of words like “liquid”, “substance”, “atom”, and so on have already been programmed in.

    1. There is a substance called water that is essential to all life on this planet.
    2. Water is a molecule.
    3. Molecules are composed of atoms.
    4. The composition of the water molecule is two atoms of hydrogen bonded to one atom of oxygen.
    5. Water is a liquid at room temperature.
    6. Salt is another molecule. It is a solid at room temperature.
    7. Salt is composed of one atom of sodium bonded to one atom of chlorine.
    8. Elemental sodium is a soft metal at room temperature that reacts violently with water.
    9. Elemental chlorine is a poisonous gas at room temperature.
    10. Salt dissolves in water into two electrically charged ions, a sodium ion and a chloride ion.
    11. When water containing salt is evaporated, the ions electrically bond to each other, leaving behind solid salt (as opposed to sodium metal or chlorine gas).
    12. Water is an essential compound for life. Consuming too much or too little can be dangerous to health.
    13. Salt is an essential compound for animal life. Consuming too much or too little can be dangerous to health.
    14. Potassium chloride is another salt which has similar behavior to sodium chloride.
    15. Potassium chloride is also an essential compound for animal life. Consuming too much or too little can be dangerous to health.
    16. Animals have built-in mechanisms for regulating the balance of these ions in the blood (which is largely composed of water). These ions are known as electrolytes.
    17. When an animal is severely dehydrated, it may be healthier to consume liquids containing electrolytes (e.g. Pedialyte, Gatorade, etc.) as opposed to plain water.
    18. In especially severe cases of dehydration, IV solutions containing sodium chloride (saline) and potassium chloride may be administered by medical professionals to reestablish the healthy balance of these electrolytes in the blood, especially if the patient is unconscious and unable to consume water and electrolytes orally.
    19. Animals possess a set of highly specialized cells collectively referred to as the immune system, which are capable of fighting off infectious diseases (bacteria, viruses, etc.) that endanger the body.
    20. The immune system can sometimes malfunction and attack the body’s own cells (autoimmune disorders) or cause symptoms in response to harmless allergens such as pollen or dander (allergies).
    21. The immune system can also be trained to respond more quickly and vigorously to dangerous infectious diseases that it might be exposed to in the future, by introducing a vaccine into the body (subcutaneously, intravenously, etc.).
    22. Vaccines contain substances that are relatively harmless to the body, but are sufficiently similar to the disease that they confer (full or partial) immunity to the immune system, training it to respond vigorously in the potential event that the patient is exposed to the real disease in the future.
    23. The purpose of a vaccine is to protect the patient from the potentially large risks of contracting the actual infectious disease, e.g. flu, polio, measles, whooping cough, smallpox, HPV, etc., which must be weighed against the potential dangers of the vaccine.

    Th1th2, I’m curious which of the above-numbered statements you disagree with. If so, why?

    If not, then, of all the possible complaints that one could have about the potential risks and benefits of vaccination, why are you arguing over a harmless salt (potassium chloride) that is present in the vaccine for purposes of efficacy of the vaccination, and is also present in the blood. The amount of KCl is small, and the amount of water and NaCl in the vaccine are also small. The balance of electrolytes in the blood wouldn’t be disturbed whether the vaccine contained KCl or not.

    Would you prefer that people be injected with a broken vaccine that doesn’t confer any immunity? You are quick to insult people who disagree with you, yet you are the one who is supremely ignorant of the very foundations of the topics in which you are trying to argue.

    What is it you are trying to argue with us, anyway? If you have no specific disagreements with the *long* list of statements that I tallied up for your benefit (and that of the lurkers), then you seem to just be insulting people for no reason. And that makes you look like the fool, not anyone else.

  62. #62 Jake Hamby
    October 16, 2011

    I have a truly Orac-like comment in moderation trying to build up a chain of reasoning, piece by piece, literally as one would explain it to an intelligent agent software such as in the new iPhone, why it is that KCl in vaccines is pointless to argue about.

    I think at this point the thread has become about the delusion that KCl is harmful, and so, strangely enough, Th1th2’s delusions in this particular thread seem quite on-topic to me.

    Maybe I’m rationalizing the time I spent on the monster comment in moderation.

  63. #63 Jake Hamby
    October 16, 2011

    I meant to write Orac-length, not Orac-like…

  64. #64 The Christian Cynic
    October 16, 2011

    No. You forgot to mention that Orac expanded his “patient” group to children and adults as well. I followed him there.

    You sure do have an odd sense of “following,” since you were the first person to even mention newborns (and frankly, Orac’s first response makes it clear that he didn’t have newborns in mind at all). Face it: you derailed the whole discussion in a failed attempt to cast aspersions on Orac’s knowledge, and even if you had managed to prove some point there, you still wouldn’t have touched the issue of whether the amount of KCl in vaccines is anything to be concerned about (which it’s not).

  65. #65 lilady
    October 16, 2011

    Just keep asking the troll for its citations and its credentials, and ignore any of its other postings.

    Again, has anyone visited the SaneVax website to see the report that I mentioned above:

    New Study: Vaccinated Children Have More Than Twice the Diseases and Disorders Than Unvaccinated Children
    October 15, 2011 By Leslie Carol Botha Leave a Comment
    Journal of Natural Food and Health

    Apparently the internet “study” isn’t closed yet and they are still soliciting respondents.

  66. #66 Igor
    October 16, 2011

    You have no evidence to suggest that the KCl found in vaccines is “completely harmless”. Nada.

    I also have no evidence to suggest that witnessing Th’s blatant disregard for basic competence and simple honesty is completely harmless to our well-being. Yet here we are, taking a risk. Nor does Th’ have evidence to suggest that typing on her computer is completely harmless. In fact, judging from Th’s statements, computer use may correlate to eroding cognitive reasoning skills and recalling or even recognizing own recent statements.

    Perhaps one day Th will surprise us all by claiming that he/she never said anything and simply does not exist. Then, inch’Allah, Th will exit, stage right, never to return again.

    You were told repeatedly the KCl was not meant as a supplement, but as a way of preserving the vaccine. Do you really think you can just ignore that?

    I think since thing reads every second word of any attempt to clearly explain some very basic things, he/she can ignore anything with ease.

  67. #67 Igor
    October 16, 2011

    @lilady:From the German study

    “The data was collected from parents with vaccine-free children via an internet questionnaire by vaccineinjury.info and Andreas Bachmair, a German classical homeopathic practitioner.”

    and

    “On the other hand, I had noticed the results show about a 1% rate for autism in the unvaccinated over 3 years old–about the same as vaccinated children. So I asked Bachmair why the data does not show significantly less. He told me he had invited many autism groups and internet autism lists to participate and thus skewed the results accordingly. ”

    Nuff said. This is a study the same way my email spam aggregate contents are a study.

  68. #68 Sauceress
    October 16, 2011

    You have no evidence to suggest that the KCl found in vaccines is “completely harmless”. Nada.

    Seeing as the humpty troll provides no evidence that the dose of KCl found in vaccines is harmful, the cravings of its insatiable addiction to attention can be its only reason for carrying on with the above line of comment.

  69. #69 lilady
    October 16, 2011

    @ Igor: This is the study I participated in and I posted my participation on RI. I got raked over the coals at AoA because one of their trolls saw my posting…I figure it was a coup to be castigated there with in the company of Dr. Offit and Orac.

    Yes, inch’Allah, Th will exit, stage right, never to return again. Or, as the Italian nonni of my childhood friend used to say, “From your lips to God’s ears”, Th will exit, stage right, never to return.

  70. #70 T-reg
    October 16, 2011

    I guess the troll missed the whole point:

    A very basic concept in toxicology is that of a toxic dose.

    A substance is toxic only when it is administered at its toxic dose.

    A vaccine contains KCl at levels which are a VERY small fraction of the non-toxic doses of KCl given in IV fluids and diet.
    For example 0.005 mg in one vial of a vaccines vs 358 mg in one banana.

    A very small fraction of a non-toxic dose is non-toxic.

    You DO NOT NEED statistical evidence to prove the validity of a simple phenomenon where all the relevant variables are known and well understood.

  71. #71 Chris
    October 16, 2011

    Please do not feed the idiotic manipulative lying troll.

  72. #72 Th1Th2
    October 16, 2011

    You were told repeatedly the KCl was not meant as a supplement, but as a way of preserving the vaccine. Do you really think you can just ignore that?

    Why do you keep repeating the same crap? Read #214.

    It however, is not toxic to the child. at that dose: Not essential to the child neither toxic to the child. But essential for the vaccine. Totally harmless.

    So for you it’s OK to give KCl (from the vaccine) to a child even though not needed and indicated for as long as it wouldn’t cause harm. This, despite the fact, that you don’t have any evidence to support that the KCl (from the vaccine) can cause harm.

    Orac knew exactly when to shut up. He eventually did because if he had insisted on something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever will constitute medical negligence. In this case, a medical error “whether or not it is evident or harmful to the patient.” (Wiki) Be like Orac and shut the hell up!

    We have a huge piece of evidence: the fact that a child would take in far more from other sources, and wouldn’t be harmed.

    That is without a doubt a huge “WHOLE” piece of straw man.

  73. #73 Sauceress
    October 16, 2011

    He eventually did because if he had insisted on something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever will constitute medical negligence.

    Is it really trying to argue that, unless an excipient contained in a medication is also specifically indicated for the condition for which the medication has been prescribed/administered, then administering it amounts to medical negligence? Serioulsy?

    Virtually all medications contain ingredients other than the pharmacologically active substance.For example: ph stabilisers, binders, cellulose or gelatin coatings, ingredients which aid absorption (disintegrants), antioxidants such as vitamin A, vitamin E, vitamin C, amino acids cysteine & methionine ect.

    So according to this pathetically ignorant troll, any doctor who has ever prescribed/administered any medication containing any form of excipient, where the excipient is not indicated for the condition, could be sued for medical negligence?

    And here I was thinking that it couldn’t possibly get any more idiotic.

  74. #74 Sauceress
    October 16, 2011

    He eventually did because if he had insisted on something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever will constitute medical negligence.

    Rubbish!

    Is it really trying to argue that, unless an excipient in a medication is also specifically indicated for the condition for which the medication containing it is prescribed/administered, then administering it amounts to medical negligence? Serioulsy?

    Virtually all medications contain ingredients other than the pharmacologically active substance.For example: ph stabilisers, binders, cellulose or gelatin coatings, ingredients which aid absorption (disintegrants),
    antioxidants such vitamin A, vitamin E, vitamin C, the amino acids cysteine and methionine ect.

    So according to this pathetically ignorant troll, any doctor that has ever prescribed/administered any medication containing any form of excipient, where the excipient is not indicated for the condition being targeted, could be sued for medical negligence.

    Oh and let’s not forget the binders, fillers, coatings, and who really knows what else seeing as there is virtually no regulation, making up all those alty “natural” supplements

    So Why then is this troll spending all its time here commenting when it should be too busy writing letters of complaint to the relevent regulatory bodies.

    And here I was, once again, thinking that it couldn’t possibly get any more idiotic.

  75. #75 T-reg
    October 16, 2011

    @thingy:

    @ #214:
    you want this from a doctor’s point of view, right?
    Well, I am a doctor. I am an MBBS (that’s MD in the US). I have been awarded the degree by the Rajiv Gandhi University of Health Sciences, from the Indian state of Karnataka. My degree is recognized by the Medical Council of India and is considered at par with the MD degree in the US by the “US National Committee on Accreditation” – I’ve been through Med school.

    Now, could you give your qualifications?

  76. #76 T-reg
    October 16, 2011

    The “evidence” that you want has already been given to you. Please take the trouble to read it and understand it.

    You do not need a statistical evidence to prove that a baseball bat will accelerate at 9.8 ms-2 in the earth’s gravitational field because it is an established fact in science that this holds good for any object with a mass.
    This is because all the RELEVANT variables are understood and well accounted for.

    Similarly, IT is an established fact in science that a substance is toxic only when it exceeds its toxic dose – regardless of the toxin.
    Thus, I DO NOT NEED TO POINT TO STATISTICAL EVIDENCE, calculation of the dose administered and a confirmation that it is below the toxic dose is proof enough. Any one with a BASIC SCIENCE EDUCATION would understand why.

    Thus from that fundamental concept of “toxic dose”, a substance administered at a fraction of a proven non toxic dose is still non toxic.

    Thus for KCl too (refer to “regardless of the toxin” 2 paragraphs up) it holds true that when administered at a fraction of a non toxic dose, it is non-toxic.

  77. #77 T-reg
    October 16, 2011

    @Thingy:

    We have already given you enough proof and have countered your arguments time and again.
    You consider your self better qualified than us despite the fact that you have a secret educational qualification which you refuse to share with us. So, could YOU kindly enlighten us as to;
    1. Why is Potassium a toxin?
    2. What should we expect to see when Potassium toxicity occurs?
    3. How does the body normally deal with Potassium?
    4. How is this toxicity related to Potassium present in vaccines at very low doses when much higher doses of potassium given by other means is not toxic?
    5. What evidence do you have that Potassium in vaccines is toxic? (I do not need statistical evidence if you could explain the other questions, nevertheless since keep asking for statistical evidence I guess you might have some interesting piece of evidence to counter us… let’s see it).

  78. #78 Sauceress
    October 16, 2011

    Not sure what happened to my post…

    He eventually did because if he had insisted on something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever will constitute medical negligence.

    Is it really trying to argue that, unless an excipient in a medication is also specifically indicated for the condition for which the medication containing it is prescribed/administered, then administering it amounts to medical negligence? Serioulsy?

    Virtually all medications contain ingredients other than the pharmacologically active substance.For example: ph stabilisers, binders, cellulose or gelatin coatings, ingredients which aid absorption (disintegrants),
    antioxidants such vitamin A, vitamin E, vitamin C, the amino acids cysteine and methionine ect.

    So according to this pathetically ignorant troll, any doctor that has ever prescribed/administered any medication containing any form of excipient, where the excipient is not indicated for the condition being targeted, could be sued for medical negligence.

    Oh and let’s not forget the binders, fillers, coatings, and who really knows what else seeing as there is virtually no regulation, making up all those alty “natural” supplements

    So Why then is this troll spending all its time here commenting when it should be too busy writing letters of complaint to the relevent regulatory bodies.

    And here I was, once again, thinking that it couldn’t possibly get any more idiotic.

  79. #79 T-reg
    October 16, 2011

    because if he had insisted on something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever will constitute medical negligence

    I’m quite sure you don’t understand what constitutes medical negligence.
    In most of the pills one consumes (SBM prescriptions or herbal extract pills or homeopathy pills – whichever it is that you take when YOU are ill) there is NO INDICATION whatsoever for the gelatin (in capsules) nor for binders (lactose, dibasic calcium phosphate, sucrose, corn starch, microcrystalline cellulose, povidone polyvinylpyrrolidone and modified cellulose) in tablets. Yet, the said pharmacological preparations contains them (gelatin, lactose etc).
    Medicated syrups given to children contain (in addition to the active compound) maltitol, sorbitol or glycerol. They (maltitol, sorbitol and glycerol) have no indication in most of the diseases for which the syrups are prescribed. They (maltitol, sorbitol and glycerol) are also not essential to the child as a source of calories. But they are given.
    The above are examples of

    something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever

    and yet do not

    constitute medical negligence.

  80. #80 T-reg
    October 16, 2011

    because if he had insisted on something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever will constitute medical negligence

    I’m quite sure you don’t understand what constitutes medical negligence.
    In most of the pills one consumes (SBM prescriptions or herbal extract pills or homeopathy pills – whichever it is that you take when YOU are ill) there is NO INDICATION whatsoever for the gelatin (in capsules) nor for binders (lactose, dibasic calcium phosphate, sucrose, corn starch, microcrystalline cellulose, povidone polyvinylpyrrolidone and modified cellulose) in tablets. Yet, the said pharmacological preparations contains them (gelatin, lactose etc).
    Medicated syrups given to children contain (in addition to the active compound) maltitol, sorbitol or glycerol. They (maltitol, sorbitol and glycerol) have no indication in most of the diseases for which the syrups are prescribed. They (maltitol, sorbitol and glycerol) are also not essential to the child as a source of calories. But they are given.
    The above are examples of

    something be given to a patient wherein there is no indication for the need whatsoever

    and yet do not

    constitute medical negligence.

  81. #81 Denice Walter
    October 16, 2011

    In other anti-vax news:

    @ AoA today:

    Cathy Jameson writes (” Up Your Nose”) about how her 5 children played with kids who had recently received Flumist ( with its *live*- shudder!- virus). She narrates how she banned visits with the offending kids for a fortnight -much to her own kids’ consternation and whining.

    Her kids got sick! Those horrible disease-spreading virus-shedders… I mean,*vaccinated children*, were *of course* the culprits. Her own unvaccinated children would have been fine if they had not encountered those offensive disease-spreaders. She goes on about how she lectured her own charges about vaccination and its many deleterious effects.

    Folks, this is *really* what we’re up against: fear-mongering ranting and raving that reaches a large audience of susceptible and largely un-instructed parents. Folks like AoA as well as the woo-meisters I survey, reach large numbers of people via the internet and other media ( radio, public TV pledge drives, documentaries ). Anti-vaxxers have a voice and try to shout down the SB opposition.
    Discuss.

  82. #82 lilady
    October 16, 2011

    @ Dr. T-reg: Your postings are excellent…I suggest we all “sit tight” now…awaiting replies to your questions from the troll.

    We have other physicians, chemists and lab technologists who post here, as well.

    I’m a retired public health nurse and haven’t worked in an acute care setting for years…but you never “lose” your education and training in electrolytes, IV therapy and homeostasis for the hospitalized patient. I mentioned in prior posts that Orac is not a specialist in neonatology, nor am I a nurse-specialist in the NICU and the troll is not qualified to post here.

    I also declare that this blog is “not shut down”…just awaiting for replies to your questions addressed to Thingy.

  83. #83 i can't remember what I post under
    October 16, 2011

    Denice:

    Is she noticing at any point that the vaccinated kids did not get sick?

  84. #84 Dangerous Bacon
    October 16, 2011

    While the vaccine “toxin” ranters continue with their nonsense, it’s nice to see intelligent, pro-children’s health commentary like this today from John Barnard M.D., director of the Research Institute at Nationwide Children’s Hospital.

    Dr. Barnard writes of his sorrow about the death of a previously health baby from H. flu meningitis in the days before vaccination, and of the transformation wrought by the vaccine.

    “Last week, I asked my colleagues in the microbiology lab how many cases of H. flu infection have been diagnosed in recent years. The answer was stunning.

    Since 1997, our physicians have treated one case of H. flu meningitis, which occurred in a child whose parents refused vaccination. Before 1990, more than 100 children were hospitalized with H. Flu infections (including meningitis) at Nationwide Children’s Hospital each year. Many of those children died.

    It is remarkable that during my relatively short medical career, a killer disease has been all but eradicated by biomedical research that led to a simple, safe vaccine strategy.”

    This is the sort of writing that, while not likely to eradicate antivax fearmongering, will at least help prevent it from spreading into an epidemic that threatens our children’s health.

  85. #85 lilady
    October 16, 2011

    @ Denice Walter: I see you beat me to it…by “slumming at AoA” for that article about Flumist.

    I notice that the mommy warrior/reporter didn’t state that her children actually have doctor-diagnosed cases of flu…but then truth never interfered with the opportunity to be published in AoA.

    Mommy warrior expects that she can keep her unvaccinated children safe from the disease-bearing playmates of her kids, yet feels justified in exposing her unvaccinated rug rats to whole classrooms of other children…some of which may have (real) medical contraindications for one or more of the recommended childhood vaccines. I bet she never thinks that her unvaccinated kids will be exposing infants too young to be fully vaccinated in her child’s pediatrician’s office. What a sterling character she is.

    Oftentimes the comments yield some other inane comments, such as this gem from #2 commenter, regarding the seasonal flu immunization program in her child’s school:

    “Always the optimist I was hoping for last years formula and perhaps some immunity to it but who can answer that, not the docs, not the health department, noooo, no one knows, yet they scramble to offer “up” ridiculous vaccine facts..such as ” No one is going to get sick from this vaccine if they don’t receive it”..that’s the biggest lie on the flu vaccinated planet!!”

    This jerk/mommy warrior is a liar and has never questioned a doctor or called the health department about using “last years formula” of flu vaccine for the 2011-2012 influenza season.

    Watch for additional postings on this article and no one will correct the lying jerk about this fallacy…such is life in the echo chamber of the AoA.

  86. #86 T-reg
    October 16, 2011

    @lilady: yup, I could see that the posters know what they are talking about, so i guessed as much.

    I had posted on this blog about a month ago on a long buried thread and was called a necromancer (that was funny).
    I also had got into an argument with augie over benefit of vaccination from the view point of a developing country, but never got around to replying to him cuz I was busy. Later the thread was too old and I didn’t want to reprise my role as a necromancer.
    I forgot what I posted under so now its T-reg (that’s an irony on the name Th1Th2) 🙂

  87. #87 Militant Agnostic
    October 16, 2011

    Can I just say that “feces of three healthy children in Cleveland” would be an AWESOME name for a band!

    Sounds more like an installation in an art gallery to me.

  88. #88 palindrom
    October 16, 2011

    Militant Agnostic @286 —

    Eeeeeew!

  89. #89 Denice Walter
    October 16, 2011

    @ i can’t remember….

    For some reason she doesn’t mention that. I wonder why?

    @ lilady:

    Slumming? you want slumming? OK, Mikey @ NaturalNews ‘splains those recent supplement studies. Hilarity ensues as per usual.

    @ Dangerous Bacon: we have our job cut out for us.

  90. #90 lilady
    October 16, 2011

    @ Dangerous Bacon: Thanks for the link for the doctor discussing invasive Hib disease. They were amongst the saddest case that we investigated at the health department. I also remember meeting a mommy whose child was seen at the dedicated Pediatric Emergency Department of our County hospital by a specialist-emergency pediatrics. As soon as the doctor examined the child, he intubated him…the youngster had epiglottitis caused by Hib.

    Articles such as this appearing in mainstream media go a long way to inform parents about the dangers of childhood diseases when parents “opt out” of immunizations for their kids.

    @ T-reg: Your reference to “augie” brings to mind my stalking troll who was quite vicious with his personal attacks. He was put in “moderation purdah” for a short period of time for a particularly nasty racial word. I can only hope that he is permanently banned from this site.

  91. #91 lilady
    October 16, 2011

    Yes, this blog is officially open…still.

    I’m off now for my weekly visit to see “my other son” in his group home.

    Please remember no feeding the troll…unless it answers the questions put to it by T-reg.

  92. #92 lilady
    October 16, 2011

    @ i can’t remember….:

    There was not mention in the article whether or not if the children who actually received FluMist got ill…but I can bet they did not. Nor did any of the mommy/warriors who have posted since then, who claim their kids got ill with a “flu-like” illness after exposure to the kids who got the vaccine, mention that there was an outbreak of actual influenza in immunized kids.

    One additional mommy/warrior has posted about the potential danger of FluMist from what she learned from another of their anti-vacs docs…Dr. Sherry Tenpenny. Because the vaccine is administered via nasal spray, Tenpenny suspects that the proximity of the nasal passages to the base of brain may cause encephalitis.

    This is the ninth year that the prevalent seasonal influenza strains have been incorporated into FluMist seasonal influenza vaccine and there has never been an untoward incident with administering the vaccine to mildly or moderately immuno-compromised individuals and there are no contraindications to administering to family members of these immune compromised individuals:

    Can contacts of people with weakened immune systems get the nasal-spray flu vaccine LAIV (FluMist®)?

    People who are in contact with others with severely weakened immune systems when they are being cared for in a protective environment (for example, people with hematopoietic stem cell transplants), should not get LAIV (FluMist®). People who have contact with others with lesser degrees of immunnosuppression (for example, people with diabetes, people with asthma taking corticosteroids, or people infected with HIV) can get LAIV (FluMist®).

    -CDC The Nasal Spray Flu Vaccine (Live Attenuated Influenza Vaccine [LAIV] CDC Updated September 21, 2011

    BTW, call me “suspicious”…but this season’s influenza seasons is barely getting started. The onslaught of diagnosed influenza cases in the western hemisphere is usually after the New Year. My county has no lab confirmed influenza cases.

  93. #93 Th1Th2
    October 17, 2011

    278 and 279,

    A bunch of straw man. Despite the fact that you’ve admitted that excipients/gelantins/binders are not indicated for humans whatsoever, you then falsely concluded that they must be “completely harmless” and therefore “safe”.

    Next.

  94. #94 Th1Th2
    October 17, 2011

    You sure do have an odd sense of “following,” since you were the first person to even mention newborns (and frankly, Orac’s first response makes it clear that he didn’t have newborns in mind at all).

    And neither does Orac have any idea even for adults.

  95. #95 Gray Falcon
    October 17, 2011

    Th1Th2@293, do you know what a “straw man” is? The only arguments they were addressing were the ones you made. You, on the other hand, made a huge one with:

    Despite the fact that you’ve admitted that excipients/gelantins/binders are not indicated for humans whatsoever,

    They never said that.

  96. #96 Igor
    October 17, 2011

    “you then falsely concluded that they must be “completely harmless” and therefore “safe”.”

    Because something can be completely harmless, yet unsafe?

  97. #97 Th1Th2
    October 17, 2011

    Th1th2, I’m curious which of the above-numbered statements you disagree with. If so, why?

    0.5 This,

    My expertise is in computer science, not biology or chemistry,

    Why? Murphy’s Law.

  98. #98 Gray Falcon
    October 17, 2011

    Th1Th2, please tell me what “Murphy’s Law” means, and why you believe it applies, and why you felt that, rather than deal with the basic-level chemistry he tried to explain to you, you chose to insult his qualifications.

  99. #99 Th1Th2
    October 17, 2011

    Because something can be completely harmless, yet unsafe?

    So you’re claiming that these excipients, gelatin and binders are completely harmless to humans is because [enter straw man]

    Otherwise [enter evidence-based science]

  100. #100 Gray Falcon
    October 17, 2011

    Th1Th2, you want me to prove that lactose, dibasic calcium phosphate, sucrose, corn starch, etc. are harmless? Most of those are common foodstuffs!

  101. #101 Th1Th2
    October 17, 2011

    The never said that.

    How could they missed the CAPS LOCK??

  102. #102 Th1Th2
    October 17, 2011

    Th1Th2, you want me to prove that lactose, dibasic calcium phosphate, sucrose, corn starch, etc. are harmless? Most of those are common foodstuffs!

    Ah you mean they are harmless to the food. I see. Straw man. Next.

  103. #103 Gray Falcon
    October 17, 2011

    You said, “not indicated for humans whatsoever”, they said “not indicated for the condition being targeted” and “there is NO INDICATION whatsoever for the gelatin… in tablets.” Not that they weren’t indicated for humans. Do you really think you can get away with lying like that.

  104. #104 lilady
    October 17, 2011

    Thingy:

    What university did you attend and what university degree do you have?

    What is your professional licensing?

    Where are you employed in the health care professions?

    Where are the citations to prove that KCl in solution and in vaccines are deleterious?

    Why should we believe anything that you post?

  105. #105 Gray Falcon
    October 17, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    Ah you mean they are harmless to the food. I see. Straw man. Next.

    I said foodstuff, as in made from food, not food additives. Try learning what words mean, not guessing at their meaning. It will save you a lot of trouble.

  106. #106 Th1Th2
    October 17, 2011

    You said, “not indicated for humans whatsoever”, they said “not indicated for the condition being targeted” and “there is NO INDICATION whatsoever for the gelatin… in tablets.” Not that they weren’t indicated for humans. Do you really think you can get away with lying like that.

    Then list down the INDICATION of which (excipients, gelatin and binders) to humans.

  107. #107 Chris
    October 17, 2011

    Please ignore the most idiotic delusional troll from Htrae.

  108. #108 Gray Falcon
    October 17, 2011

    Then list down the INDICATION of which (excipients, gelatin and binders) to humans.

    As parts of food.

  109. #109 Th1Th2
    October 17, 2011

    I said foodstuff, as in made from food, not food additives. Try learning what words mean, not guessing at their meaning. It will save you a lot of trouble.

    Ah ok. So, you mean they are harmless to the foodstuff?. I see. Straw man. Next.

  110. #110 Gray Falcon
    October 17, 2011

    Okay, now Th1Th2’s just being contrary. I really should have known better than to think I’d get something intelligent out of her.

  111. #111 Th1Th2
    October 17, 2011

    As parts of food.

    I said INDICATION of excipients, gelatin and binders to humans. No moving of goalpost allowed. You’ve been cheating the whole time.

  112. #112 Gray Falcon
    October 17, 2011

    So if something isn’t indicated, you can’t consume it at all? Do you eat, Th1Th2? Because most of those substances are found in common food. Not additives, not preservatives, part of the food itself.

  113. #113 lilady
    October 17, 2011

    Time to ignore delusional, uneducated, unemployable troll.

    It is deliberately not answering any questions about its education, licensing, gainful employment and is unable to provide any citations that back up its irrational thinking processes. Just a scamming, on the dole, troll.

  114. #114 Th1Th2
    October 17, 2011

    So if something isn’t indicated, you can’t consume it at all? Do you eat, Th1Th2? Because most of those substances are found in common food. Not additives, not preservatives, part of the food itself.

    I don’t eat foods I don’t like.

  115. #115 Igor
    October 17, 2011

    Well I for one am glad that at least we all agree that my steak is in no danger from the collagen inside. I’ll keep it frozen until there is conclusive proof that it’s completely safe for safe for human consumption. Although can any foods be completely safe being a choking hazard?

  116. #116 Renate
    October 17, 2011

    Thingy, even eaten pudding? Most of them contain gelatine. If gelatine in pudding doesn’t do any harm, why should it be different in medicines?
    It is told you again and again and again and again and again, KCl is harmless in several products, which contain even larger amounts of KCl than a vaccin, so why would KCl in a vaccin not be harmless?

  117. #117 Narad
    October 17, 2011

    Okay, now Th1Th2’s just being contrary.

    “Now”?

  118. #118 Gray Falcon
    October 17, 2011

    Okay, more contrary than usual. Which takes some effort.

  119. #119 lilady
    October 17, 2011

    I believe that it is time for the Thingy bot to start posting…the bot makes more sense.

  120. #120 Beamup
    October 17, 2011

    I continue to be astonished at Orac’s forbearance in permitting such a lunatic to continue posting unchecked.

  121. #121 Bronze Dog
    October 17, 2011

    I think we can go ahead and consider Thingy a chemistry denialist, since he seems to think KCl is okay when it’s naturally in food, but somehow putting it into a vaccine turns it into not-KCl, with radically different chemical properties despite still being made of potassium and chloride ions. In other words, that A is not equal to A.

  122. #122 https://me.yahoo.com/a/PSPW0GU_zfVn3qhjy1tC0lwbbxJLm3O14w--#c1afa
    October 17, 2011

    As an example of venomous, arrogant, content-free trolling, Thing serves well. Why you continue to attempt to engage her is a more interesting question. She is deliberately misunderstanding, misrepresenting, and misdirecting posts.

    Does Orac permit colorful language? Th1Th2 is an asshole.

  123. #123 The Christian Cynic
    October 17, 2011

    If it wasn’t clear by now to the average bystander that Thingy is a raging lunatic, #314 clinched it.

  124. #124 Narad
    October 17, 2011

    I believe that it is time for the Thingy bot to start posting

    Th1Th2bot, having neither a proper front nor back end, is pretty high maintenance. It’s going to be in the shed for a while.

  125. #125 Denice Walter
    October 17, 2011

    @ Narad:

    Altho’ it’s “in the shed”, couldn’t a person who is rather familiar with its “software” produce a reasonable facsimile ( good enough to pass a reverse Turing test) of its eloquent near-poeticisms? I *do* so miss the bot!

    I believe that you are the man** for the job!

    ** or woman, as the case might be.

  126. #126 lilady
    October 17, 2011

    @ Denice Walter: Earlier on this thread I thought I was reading the Thingy bot postings…it’s difficult to tell the difference lately.

  127. #127 Th1Th2bot
    October 17, 2011

    I think twice before not take on your insane assertion,
    Therefore not mistaken, the indication
    Why the wild when most people make.

    You should never be also vaccinated primarily
    For no loitering allowed.

    Why these ignorant infection?
    It’s nice: to justify the same;
    Assumption, don’t have asked.

    Was actually the errors you have
    Any indication, for example, you: saying?

    In time you.

    [Entitled] “That the Child, Even for Newborns, Whatsoever to Refute Chad in Infancy”

  128. #128 lilady
    October 18, 2011

    @ Th1Th2bot: Thank you for the explanation about KCl in vaccines and IV solutions and for information about magnesium for “ETOH cases”.

    What would be the Mg dosage for a case of vodka, versus a case of whiskey?

  129. #129 Igor
    October 18, 2011

    I think given the extent of thing’s medical knowledge, a haiku was more appropriate. Or a dirty limerick.

  130. #130 Narad
    October 18, 2011

    I think given the extent of thing’s medical knowledge, a haiku was more appropriate.

    When it makes a haiku, you’ll get a haiku. I only added the formatting and helped it select among titles.

  131. #131 lilady
    October 18, 2011

    I love limericks…even the dirty ones. I think that would be appropriate.

    Thanks again bot, for clarifying electrolytes in IV fluids and KCl in certain vaccines.

  132. #132 Sauceress
    October 18, 2011

    Th1Th2bot, having neither a proper front nor back end..

    Just like a certain
    troll.

  133. #133 T-reg
    October 18, 2011

    @thingy:
    Answers to #277 please… Stop trying to dodge the questions.

    You claim that I argue from ignorance (this is despite the fact that I’m qualified in the field within the realms of which we are arguing and I am also licensed to practice in the field of health care).

    So, why don’t you share with us some of your pearls of wisdom and rid me of my ignorance?

  134. #134 T-reg
    October 18, 2011

    @Thingy:
    before you respond to this, answer my questions in #277. This is so that you don’t hide behind attempts to attack me over this post to avoid answering direct questions put to you.

    For the benefit of lurkers:

    Try to follow the logical trail here:
    1. Let us suppose we have a drug that has to be given at a dose of 5mg.

    2. Measuring out and dealing with 5mg of a drug (which is a very very small quantity and is much less than a pinch of the drug) is difficult.

    3. Thus, the drug has to be given a volume which makes it easy to hold or administer (i.e. make it easily manipulable) but keeping the dose at the required level.

    4. Thus, an inert substance must be added to the drug to make up a manipulable volume at the same time keeping the content of the active drug at an appropriate level.

    5. Such an inert substance is one which either does not interact with the body at all (in a biochemical sense) or is one which interacts but does not cause any untoward effects.

    6. Such substances added for the above explained purpose (i.e. to carry the drug) are the excipients in the drug.

    7. The above problem and its solution are not limited to SBM alone but is a feature of homeopathic “medicines” and any other “medicines”.

    8. Some excipients are added so as to make the pill dissolve slowly and thus provide a prolonged and sustained plasma concentration of the drug at the required levels rather than have it spike to above the required dose and then rapidly drop to below the effective level.

    9. Some excipients (in the form of a coating) are added to prevent the pill from dissolving in the stomach as the low pH there can render it inactive. These pills are designed to dissolve in the small intestine where the pH is higher and enables the drug to be absorbed correctly.

    Excipients are added to a pharmacological preparation to provide the preparation certain desirable properties (as illustrated above) or to preserve the drug. The latter being necessary to keep the drug from spoiling and thus becoming inactive.
    BUT, bearing in mind that these excipients come in contact with the body, harmless/safe substances are chosen to ensure that while helping the drug preservation and delivery, they do not harm the body. Without excipients, the active drug may prove to be ineffective because of inability to deliver it or spoiling it altogether.

  135. #135 Denice Walter
    October 18, 2011

    @ Narad:

    While I’m not entirely sure if the Turing or reverse Turing test is apropro, I think that the bot has talent as well as serving a useful function in society. I tried reading it aloud and was *very* impressed.

  136. #136 lilady
    October 18, 2011

    @ Narad: I read the bot’s comments aloud as well. It provided good information about electrolytes in solution and KCl in vaccines and the amount in “natural foods” as well as Mg for “ETOH cases”.

    I was impressed with the bot’s immense knowledge compared to the gibberish posted by Thingy.

  137. #137 GaryH
    October 18, 2011

    According to Jeffrey Kluger in Splendid Solution, a history of Salk’s work on polio, the “three healthy children” were from Akron. They were siblings who had been exposed to a person with paralytic polio and acquired the virus, but who, themselves, did not develop the disease. This was a Type I virus, which became known as the “Mahoney type.” That virus sample had been isolated not by Salk, but by Dr. Thomas Francis, for whom Salk had once worked. There were also samples of Type II and Type III virus, which came from other sources.

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