Respectful Insolence

The nearest major airport to me happens to be a Delta Airlines hub. Consequently, nine times out of ten, whenever I have to fly anywhere I’m usually stuck using Delta Airlines. It’s actually not too bad, as major airlines go, better than some but about the same as most. Unfortunately, during the month of November, Delta’s in-flight entertainment will leave much to be desired. The reason? Apparently, not satisfied with renting the CBS JumboTron in Times Square last year, this year the highly Orwellian-named National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) somehow slithered their way into the in flight entertainment on Delta Airlines in the form of this video, for which, unfortunately, embedding is disabled, as are comments. (So leave your comments here.)

Notice how it starts out as seemingly a normal PSA about how to avoid the flu. It includes sensible recommendations, such as frequent hand washing, covering your mouth when you cough or sneeze, eating a nutritious diet, and getting enough exercise. The first signs of trouble occur when the announcer claims that vitamin C can prevent the flu (the evidence for this claim is, to put it charitably, very shaky at best), but the real trouble doesn’t really arrive until, cleverly on the part of the NVIC, until the last third or so of the video, when the announcer chirps, “Getting a flu shot is another option.” Then, while the announcer keeps chirping seemingly reasonable information about reading the package insert and urging viewers to ask their doctor about the risks and benefits of the flu vaccine, the camera focuses on pictures of the NVIC website, including images of headlines like “Mercury in vaccines” and “Aluminum in vaccines, as the announcer touts “different ways to stay healthy,” the obvious implication is “different than the flu vaccine.” The video concludes with a shot of anti-vaccine grande dame Barbara Loe Fisher telling the audience:

Become an informed health care consumer. It’s about your health, your family, your choice.

I agree. It is about your health, your family, and your choice, which is why you should avoid the mass of misinformation that is the NVIC website.

This is a classic version of what I like to call “misinformed consent.” Anti-vaccine propagandists like Barbara Loe Fisher are clever in that they have finally apparently realized that a straight anti-vaccine message is a PR loser (not to mention that responsible corporations won’t air a straight anti-vaccine message); so they don’t include anything as blatant as what’s on their website in their PSAs anymore. Instead, the take a page from the “health freedom” movement and use rhetoric like what’s in this video. If you didn’t know that the NVIC is the oldest and one of the most influential groups in the modern anti-vaccine movement, the video would appear to be just another health-oriented PSA. Most viewers wouldn’t realize it, either. If, however, out of curiosity they happen to type “nvic.org” into their browser they will be confronted with slick anti-vaccine propaganda wrapped in the same deceptive rhetoric about “your choice,” including a highly deceptive “vaccine ingredient calculator,” a fetid load of misinformation about the recent Institute of Medicine report on adverse reactions due to vaccines, the Vaccine Freedom Wall (dedicated to supposed “repression” and “abuse” anti-vaccine parents have experienced for refusing to vaccinate), and the worst of the worst, NVIC’s International Memorial for Vaccine Victims, which implies that vaccines are dangerous and have injured or killed many children, an utter lie. As I’ve said many times before, we’re all for informed consent and personal choice, but both have to be based on accurate information, science, and correct estimates of the risk-benefit ratios of the intervention being recommended.

Indeed, the NVIC specializes intentionally on misinformed consent, in which risks of vaccines are exaggerated far beyond what any science can support and when there aren’t enough risks to suit the NVIC’s taste they show no compunction about promoting imaginary, fantastical, and outright false risks, such as the claim that vaccines cause autism. The only difference this year is that the NVIC, apparently stung by the slapdown administered by the blogosphere and the American Academy of Pediatrics over its JumboTron ad earlier this year, has disguised its anti-vaccine agenda even more effectively, leaving the frankly anti-vaccine information to its website, which its Delta Airlines PSA urges viewers to visit.

And then there’s the reason they’re doing it. It turns out that I had forgotten. Apparently this week is Vaccine Awareness Week (VAW), a joint “effort” by Barbara Loe Fisher with the NVIC and Joe Mercola:

It’s rather interesting how nowhere in the video is Mercola.com mentioned. Mercola is, however, mentioned in various posts on the NVIC and Mercola.com websites. Be that as it may, the NVIC has, once again, clearly teamed with the quackery-promoting Mercola.com website, to pick the last week of October/first week of November to spread misinformation about vaccines by any means they can. (I really wish these anti-vaccine loon groups would get together and settle on just one crank “vaccine awareness week” or month. I can’t keep them all straight, kind of like the way I can’t keep the various homeopathy awareness weeks straight.) You’ll forgive me for having forgotten all about it; it just didn’t register to me until it was already halfway over, so much of the “same ol’ same ol'” has it been. As part of his “celebration” of VAW, Joe Mercola is also streaming an anti-vaccine movie, The Greater Good (link to the video on Vimeo here), which I, as your humble blogger, will try to watch and review, although I don’t know whether I’ll manage to do it before the end of VIAW or whether I’ll post the review here or on my other blogging location. After all, even the mighty Orac can only withstand so much concentrated anti-vaccine nonsense at one time. (Yes, I have already sampled several minutes of the movie; so I know of what I speak.)

In the second year of Mercola’s and the NVIC’s intelligence-insulting “Vaccine Awareness Week,” it looks as though they’ve decided to try to move up the time frame of their attempts to reach the general public with their anti-vaccine propaganda. Last year, during the VAW, Mercola and the NVIC posted the same anti-vaccine nonsense that they usually post, only more of it. The NVIC then followed VAW up by buying pre-movie ad space during the Thanksgiving holiday weekend last year in AMC Theaters to air an anti-vaccine PSA, resulting in skeptical activism and pushback against it. Then, a few months later, the NVIC bought ad time on the CBS JumboTron in Times Square for a very brief ad for the NVIC. Now, the NVIC has gotten even more clever at disguising its anti-vaccine message by wrapping it a seemingly normal health PSA that is in reality an ad for the NVIC and the anti-vaccine message on its website. And the NVIC does it all without actually attacking the flu vaccine directly, instead relying on its PSA being in essence an advertisement for its website. The “Vaccine Awareness” that the NVIC promotes is, as is typical of an anti-vaccine organization, only negative awareness.

All of which is why it looks like it’s time for a bit of skeptical activism again, this time to educate the relevant officials at Delta Airlines. In the meantime, I’ll also keep an eye on what Mercola and Fisher are up to for the rest of this “Vaccine Awareness Week,” realizing that the only “awareness” of vaccines they promote is misinformed awareness.

ADDENDUM: Leave it to Elyse to get the ball rolling with a petition at Change.org. Also, she’s provided a handy-dandy list of contacts at Delta Airlines and its video provider. I have to wonder whether complaints are already having an effect. It’s been pointed out to me that the video has been taken down by the user at YouTube; I note that the video was not hosted at the NVIC’s YouTube channel, but rather at the In-Flight Media Associates YouTube channel. That’s the company providing Delta’s video content.

Comments

  1. #1 Julian Frost
    November 3, 2011

    What?!! The whole of October was Vaccine Injury Awareness Month! Why do they need another week on top of that?
    I managed to put up five pro-vaxx posts on my blog during October to counteract their, ummm, horse elbows. Looks like I’m going to have to do some more.

  2. #2 Laura
    November 3, 2011

    Bravo Dr Mercola and Barbara Fischer!
    There is no evidence that the current schedule is entirely safe-too many too soon!
    http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/01/12/the-truth-about-vaccinations/

  3. #3 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    Speaking from my experience as a public health nurse in the Division of Communicable Disease Control of a large County health department, I can unequivocally state that all domestic and international airlines have had instances of passengers with communicable diseases aboard their flights.

    There have been instances of patients with sputum positive tuberculosis who have been diagnosed after their arrival at their destination, as well as instances of patients diagnosed with bacterial meningitis or measles, who were aboard flights when they were asymptomatic, yet highly infectious during their time on the plane.

    Our clinical staff have been involved in investigations of these passengers with communicable airborne or droplet borne diseases because of the geographic area we practice in…at the nexus of two large international airports and one regional airport.

    During intensive case surveillance, one of the first questions posed to patients or their families is history of recent travel aboard a common conveyance (buses, trains and airplanes).

    The head office or a local administrative office of the airline is contacted to secure the passenger manifest and the airline is directed to immediately contact each exposed passenger at home or at the passenger’s destination.

    Staff at the airline is provided with educational material to distribute to any “exposed” passenger and the exposed passenger is told specifically which communicable disease they might have been exposed to; the identity of the ill passenger is never provided.

    If a passenger was seated near a person with tuberculosis they are instructed to notify their personal physician for 2-step Mantoux skin testing. If the passenger was exposed to a person with bacterial meningitis they are also directed to go to their physician for prescribing of prophylactic antibiotics to greatly lessen their chances of contracting this serious disease. Measles-exposed passengers should check their immunization records to see that they are protected and receive either an MMR vaccine if they are not fully immunized or receive immune globulin. If a passenger does not have a primary care physician, then prophylactic treatment is provided in a county-run health department clinic.

    Whenever a patient with these diseases was located within our county, we, along with our state health department were the lead investigating agencies. At other times, we participated in the investigation, but the health departments where the case was located was the lead agency, whether it was in another state or another country.

    News stories and press releases rarely identify the actual airline airline or the actual flight where a communicable disease exposure took place….but again, speaking from experience every airline including Delta has had instances of passengers with highly communicable infectious disease aboard their flights.

    Fortunately, there rarely are cases confirmed of these serious diseases that have been communicated to other passengers and influenza usually is nowhere as serious as infections by the measles virus or meningitis or tuberculosis bacteria.

    I still cannot understand how Delta or any other airline would permit a notorious anti-vaccination group to run their biased and unscientific PSAs aboard their flights. It is such a disservice to their passengers.

  4. #4 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    Laura are you trolling again? Haven’t you received enough of a verbal beating from people here…who actually know about immunology and disease transmission?

    Stick around, I have a comment in moderation about my experiences in public health when investigating possible communicable disease transmission aboard airplanes.

  5. #5 alison
    November 3, 2011

    Laura, you are aware, aren’t you, that newborn children are exposed to more antigens in their first day outside the womb than are contained in a full vaccine schedule? So how does this fit with your ‘too many, too soon’ mantra?

  6. #6 laura
    November 3, 2011

    @lilady
    Here’s an interesting link for your info…
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19157572

    By the way are you all afraid to use your real names??
    I might be inclined to take you more seriously if you did…instead of the
    oxymoronic “respectful insolence”

  7. #7 Antiquated Tory
    November 3, 2011

    “Frozen human brain tissue (front cerebral cortex) of 8 autistic patients and 8 age and gender matched normal subjects…” As a purely naive observation, isn’t that an awfully low n?

  8. #8 T-reg
    November 3, 2011

    @Laura:
    Association doesn’t imply causation.

    This study merely shows that patients with ASD have an elevated inflammatory response in the brain.
    I don’t see how it correlate with the assertion that vaccines are responsible for it.

    There are several possible triggers of inflammation and this study makes no mention of which specific trigger is responsible.

    Again, even if we consider that these individuals are susceptible to launching an abnormally high immune response to antigens – vaccines are not the only source of antigenic exposure. In fact, we are exposed to far greater antigens naturally than we are by way of vaccination. Thus those susceptible to launching an abnormal immune response will do so whether vaccinated or not.

  9. #9 Mrs. Woo
    November 3, 2011

    @Laura –

    The beginning of the study suggests to me they are looking for differences between normal controls and ASD spectrum patients for easier diagnosis confirmation and that inflammation within the brain is visible because of these various markers.

    No cause for this inflammation is speculated or suggested within it, so why do you suggest this study says that vaccines cause autism? Have you read the study or at least the abstract, or was this listed as a ‘reference’ in one of the misleading rants by an anti-vaccine advocate? Confirmation bias makes them find relationships where there are none proven and then use those imagined relationships (i.e., if inflammation is present obviously it was vaccines that must have caused it) to insist that what they are saying is true.

    Maybe you should step back objectively and look at what is really said in the literature and realize that the millions who don’t react badly suggest that vaccination is on the whole safer than exposure to the disease it hopes to prevent.

  10. #10 Science Mom
    November 3, 2011

    Here’s an interesting link for your info…
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19157572

    You didn’t actually read this did you? A small study of n=8, that found results differing from previous studies with regards to inflammatory cytokines has to do with vaccines how?

    By the way are you all afraid to use your real names??
    I might be inclined to take you more seriously if you did…instead of the
    oxymoronic “respectful insolence”

    By all means, please post your full name and address since you’re trying to prove something. Please note that a.) The author of this blog uses his real name elsewhere and is a poorly kept secret and b.) Ask your filthy little anti-vax comrades what they like to do when they get the identity of pro-vaxxers. As if someone like you would take anyone seriously who threatens your dogma, name or pseudonym.

  11. #11 Mu
    November 3, 2011

    So, Delta doesn’t want you to get the flu vaccine before getting on their airplanes? That should really help their business around Christmas time. Maybe I get the shot anyway and check for some open seats later on.

  12. #12 Todd W.
    November 3, 2011

    I saw the video yesterday. To someone who does not regularly follow the antivaccine movement, it is a perfectly reasonable sounding PSA. There are subtle suggestions that the flu vaccine is totally unnecessary, but they never come right out and say anything that blatant. I also noticed that one of the views of the NVIC web site has a title/hyperlink for “Gardasil: The Damage Continues”.

  13. #13 Orac
    November 3, 2011

    I saw the video yesterday. To someone who does not regularly follow the antivaccine movement, it is a perfectly reasonable sounding PSA.

    Exactly. It’s very clever, actually. The video starts out with a lot of (mostly) uncontroversial health advice. (The vitamin C claim is dodgy, but other than that…) Then, about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way in, the flu vaccine is mentioned as an “option” (note the choice of words) along with (again, seemingly uncontroversial) advice to read the package insert and ask your doctor questions. Then, the NVIC starts hawking its website as an aid to the viewer becoming an “educated, informed health care consumer.” Then, it’s only when a viewer visits the NVIC website that he will be exposed to the unfiltered, unvarnished anti-vaccine message, including claims that Gardasil is “killing girls,” that the flu vaccine is harmful and unnecessary, that vaccines cause autism and other neurdevelopmental conditions, and that vaccines are chock full of “toxins.”

  14. #14 Renate
    November 3, 2011

    Isn’t it time for a Vaccine Preventable Diseases Victims Week? Just to remember all victims of diseases which could have been easily prevented by vaccins or which have disapeared, thanks to vaccins.

  15. #15 jrkrideau
    November 3, 2011

    Somewhat off-topic for a flu vaccine thread but this morning’s CBC news reports that Quebec has a measles epidemic (700+). The anti-vacciners appeared to have scored another hit. The province is still reviewing immunization rates.

    I hope the anti-vacciners have not killed anyone.

  16. #16 Annika
    November 3, 2011

    YES! Please review “The Greater Good.” So many of my anti-vax acquaintances are telling me that it’s so great and is “based on science” and “tries to give an unbiased perspective” which I seriously doubt!

  17. #17 Ellie
    November 3, 2011

    de-lurking

    @13 As someone who survived measles (rubeola) but was left with lifelong eye problems, and barely survived whooping cough which came close to killing me at age 9 months, I say a resounding yes! I can assure you, had vaccines been available way back then, my mother would most certainly have taken advantage of them. Every time I had aches or pains in my legs, she was certain I was coming down with polio and made sure as soon as that vaccine was available, I received it. I had the smallpox vaccine and all the “boosters” and have the scar on my arm to prove it. Childhood was dangerous before vaccines, even though, contrary to the nonsense spouted by some people, we did know how to wash our hands and keep our houses clean. This year, I had both a flu shot and a shingles shot, the latter of which I wouldn’t have needed if I hadn’t had a severe case of chicken pox as a child. So yes! Let’s have this Vaccine Preventable Diseases Victims Week.

    going back to lurk

  18. #18 Tim Farley
    November 3, 2011

    If you’d like to tell Delta how you feel about this, there is now a petition at Change.org you can sign.

    Please sign it and spread the word online.

  19. #19 MI Dawn
    November 3, 2011

    @Laura: I DO post under my “real” name, just like you do. The “MI” before my name simply lets the regulars know me. Back in the day, there was another Dawn who posted (who became known as ‘Crazy Dawn’ so I added the MI to differentiate). Orac knows who I am; we have met in person and are from the same state originally, and when we met. He is now back in our original state while I remain – for now – in the other state.

    Now, if you would kindly give REAL information about how vaccines are more dangerous than diseases. Oh, and your age would be nice. I’m 50, and recall the fears of the days when measles, mumps, chicken pox all caused many days of missed school, days stuck in bed, some hospitalizations and deaths. And when Rubella was horribly feared by all women of child bearing age. If you aren’t my age, you’d not understand WHY those of us are so glad vaccines prevent those days and don’t want to see them again.

  20. #20 Denice Walter
    November 3, 2011

    Orac ( in his post and @ 12) describes the “foot-in-the door” technique much beloved by folks who have a bill of goods to sell you: start out with reasonable material your audience will agree with *before* you bring up Xenu….

    Seriously though: I mostly read articles promoting anti-vax, HIV/AIDs denialism, and anti-pharmaceutical treatments for mental illness- recently it appears that those I survey are taking a more measured, thoughtful approach to presenting arguments supporting their usual ill-advised lunacy. Here’s what they do:

    They appeal to the reader/listener as a reasonable person and themselves as investigative reporters/ scientists who are bringing you the *facts* as a “public service” -not industrial, compromised educational, media, or governmental propaganda ( and hey, we *all* know how corrupt those institutions really are! Just like Wall St!)

    Mike Adams tells us how he has “researched” the issue for many years and Gary Null says he will translate the dry, scientific articles “for the layman”; they will talk about “studies” that “prove” their woo-ful hypotheses while delineating all of the conflicts of interests, design flaws, and statistical manipulations “prevalent” in studies that support the consensus while simultaneously maligning their authors and those who report about it. They will then declare the sum total “Junk Science”.

    The foot-in-the-door gives charlatans *time* to sell their product and point of view. If you spend additional time in a supermarket chances are you’ll spend more money- the same principle is at work here.

  21. #21 Vicki
    November 3, 2011

    I note that Laura is the 25th most popular name for American women in the past century, given to more than 740,473 women born in this country. (“More than” because the database is incomplete before the 1930s.) So what does “real name” mean here, even assuming that Laura is the name you use offline (whether or not it’s on your birth certificate)?

    More to the point, we’re mostly posting either checkable facts, in which case our “real” names don’t matter–if I point you at the CDC website, you can trust or not trust the CDC, but it doesn’t matter what my real name is–or opinions, in which case I’m no more or less a stranger if you think my parents named me Vicki rather than Marisol or Arthur.

  22. #22 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    Laura refers us to an article written by researchers at IBR (Institute for Basic Research in Basic Research).

    Of course she is completely clueless about the article, that looked at cadaver brains of people on the autism spectrum.

    Laura, long before you started your “career” as an anti-vax troll, I was doing my own genetics research…not on the internet but at medical school and hospital libraries maintained for practicing physicians. None of these human genetics journals were on the internet.

    Here’s a teaching moment for Laura. Rather than your usual citations from sources other than peer-reviewed journals performed by psuedo-scientists, you have stumbled upon researchers at IBR.

    IBR is an internationally acclaimed institute, whose scientists first identified the mutated gene that causes PKU (Phenylketonuria) a metabolic disease that is now identified in neonates by a genetic test also developed by IBR scientists. Neonates found to have this disorder now are provided a special formula to avoid the severe developmental disabilities inherent in the disorder. IBR researchers have also intently studied Trisomy 21 (Down Syndrome) and the link between this disorder and early onset Alzheimer Disease, which has added immeasurably to research into the prevention and treatment of Alzheimer Disease. For other cutting edge research see:

    NYS OPWDD-IBR-Major Findings

    I’ve actually used my advocacy skills to implement programs of excellence with NYS OPWDD (Office of Persons With Developmental Disabilities), including the implementation of the CDC recommendation to immunize developmentally disabled in OPWDD sponsored residential and day programs against the hepatitis B virus…my son was among the first of d.d. people to receive Heptavax vaccine in NYS in 1985.

    Having a science background, then having a child with a rare genetic disorder and being an advocate for all developmentally disabled people,has really had an impact on the care received by children and adults similarly situated.

    I won’t even dignify your questions about my anonymity when I post. The regulars here including Science Mom, have written extensively about those whose livelihood and personal safety has been threatened by your anti-vax pals.

  23. #23 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    Oops, the IBR referred to in my first sentence above should read “The Institute for Basic Research In Developmental Disabilities”

  24. #24 Daniel J. Andrews
    November 3, 2011

    Ask your filthy little anti-vax comrades what they like to do when they get the identity of pro-vaxxers.

    René Najera could answer that question.

    scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/08/the_consequences_of_blogging_under_ones.php

    By the way are you all afraid to use your real names??
    I might be inclined to take you more seriously if you did…instead of the
    oxymoronic “respectful insolence”

    No you wouldn’t. That’s an excuse, and a pitiful one at that. Do you know you’re lying, or are you lying to yourself?

    As pointed out, Orac’s real name is easy to find. But if you want other names, check Dr. Ben Goldacre (Bad Science), Dr. Paul Offit, and Dr. Steven Novella (Neurologica), all of whom have debunked antivax nonsense quite thoroughly, showing it to be misquotes, lies, badly done (and retracted) studies, and based on misunderstandings of actual research, science, coupled with a grade school or less understanding of chemistry, physiology, and immunology.

    You could also check the names of those who write for the CDC, John Hopkins, the Mayo Clinic, your provincial/state/federal health units, etc., or you could go into the literature (try Google Scholar) and find the names and affiliations of relevant researchers there.

    We’re basically just repeating what we learn from the experts around the world whose names and affiliations are easily found so it is irrelevant whether or not we use real names in comments.

    So, what excuse would you like to use so you can ignoring the experts?

  25. #25 Daniel J. Andrews
    November 3, 2011

    *ignore* (sigh)

  26. #26 Denice Walter
    November 3, 2011

    As I like to query:

    *How likely* is it that *all* of the scientists and institutions that produced / reviewed the consensus *over decades* are wrong, corrupt, or compromised,
    AND that a small group with suspect educations and axes to grind are correct?

    “Don’t trust your governments, the medical establishment, universities, and the media but trust *ME*!”, says the charlatan.

  27. #27 Beamup
    November 3, 2011

    I particularly like how so many of the people who believe that there’s this massive government-sponsored conspiracy which has somehow never leaked or come to light, ALSO believe that the government is staffed solely by incompetent idiots who can’t manage the simplest of tasks.

    Can you say “cognitive dissonance?”

  28. #28 T-reg
    November 3, 2011

    @Denice: It’s all a part of a larger conspiracy. The Government is trying to reduce earth’s population to make room for their alien masters. Doctors are their evil minions and universities their weapons and strategy development wing. Big pharma provides the funds.

  29. #29 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    If I didn’t mess up again with my posting that I referred “laura” to, early this A.M., you would understand why I post using a ‘nym. Like Rene Najera, I worked for a County department of health and know only too well, the consequences that might ensue should I post under my real name.

    Unlike Rene, I also post extensively about my experiences raising my deceased son who had a rare genetic disorder, who deserves, even in death, to remain “anonymous”.

    “laura”, should she opt to post under her real name, would not be subjected to any threats by the regular (non-troll) posters here…and she is aware of that. So why doesn’t she pierce her own veil of anonymity?

  30. #30 Jim
    November 3, 2011

    One thing I can say for Mercola and Fisher is that they typically don’t attack vaccine advocates in a childish matter by using words like, “loon” and “quack”. If a public message suggests that people should read the package insert of the vaccine, what’s the damage? Vaccine inserts are never read by the recipients because they aren’t self administered like drugs. Parents and individuals should read the package inserts and question their doctors if they feel it’s necessary.

  31. #31 Gray Falcon
    November 3, 2011

    One thing I can say for Mercola and Fisher is that they typically don’t attack vaccine advocates in a childish matter by using words like, “loon” and “quack”.

    Nice. Ignore the facts in favor of insults. Remove the words “loon” and “quack” and Orac still has a valid argument.

  32. #32 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    “One thing I can say for Mercola and Fisher is that they typically don’t attack vaccine advocates in a childish matter by using words like, “loon” and “quack”.

    The simple uncomplicated answer to Jim’s statement is that “vaccine advocates” who use science-based research are not “loons” and “quacks”.

    Jim, are you aware that there is a federal regulation that VISs (Vaccine Information Sheets) MUST be provided to the patient or parent/guardian of a child, before any vaccines are administered. The VISs are available in English and in many foreign lanquages on the internet and contain valuable information about each of the diseases that are prevented by vaccines in “user-friendly” language. They also contain information about every common minor reaction and information about the extremely rare major reactions, that are associated with each vaccine.

    Why don’t you peruse these VISs and compare and contrast the information contained in them with the pseudo-scientific information presented on Joe Mercola’s website and the NVIC website?

  33. #33 Beamup
    November 3, 2011

    One thing I can say for Mercola and Fisher is that they typically don’t attack vaccine advocates in a childish matter by using words like, “loon” and “quack”.

    The people in question are not, by any meaningful definition, “vaccine advocates.” Their goal is the abolition of all vaccination, and they’re willing to lie extensively to accomplish that. “Loon” and “quack” are overly kind, in most cases. “Attempted mass murderer” would be perfectly accurate.

    I will note additionally that you apparently are unable to provide actual evidence that they are correct, and are hence reduced to whining that Orac’s not being nice.

  34. #34 Knightly
    November 3, 2011

    I guess evolution selects for people who fly JetBlue?

    Not Qantas, though.

  35. #35 Knightly
    November 3, 2011

    Jim, you’re right that the anti-vaccine crowd doesn’t use childish language to attack their opposition. They merely accuse them of torture, maiming and murder.

    I can appreciate the importance of terminology and phrasing in communication. Take political discourse, for instance. No one has ever been convinced by an argument phrased in terms of “Nobama,” “Democrap,” or “Republitard.”

    That said, semantics has little impact on fact. Say what you like about the delivery of the message; it doesn’t change that the anti-vaccination people are factually wrong and the “pro-“vaccination people are factually correct.

  36. #36 Jim
    November 3, 2011

    “Their goal is the abolition of all vaccination, and they’re willing to lie extensively to accomplish that. “Loon” and “quack” are overly kind, in most cases. Attempted mass murderer” would be perfectly accurate.”

    Sorry but I don’t see it this way because Fisher and other so called anti-vaxers typically preach vaccine choice. I’ve never heard such language come from that side, so it seems your a bit out there (looney). Mass murder?? It’s a known fact that mortality rates for most vaccinated diseases declined by over 90% prior to the introduction of the vaccine. So, for some other reason, maybe improved living conditions, these diseases were becoming less virulent. If you wanted to commit mass murder, you could blow up a countries sanitation and water filtration systems. Now that would result in an explosion infectious disease that would result in mass deaths.

  37. #37 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    Orac, has gotten my post out of moderation (See # 3 above). Thanks Orac.

    I just tried the link Orac provided to the YouTube NVIC/Mercola PSA and this message came up:

    “This video has been removed by the user”

  38. #38 Orac
    November 3, 2011

    D’oh! I knew I should have captured and saved the video off of YouTube! Anyone want to goes whether it’ll show up again in a different form?

    On the other hand, I note that the video was on IMAvids’s Channel, which is the YouTube channel of In-Flight Media Associates. Maybe the complaints are already having an effect, and IMAvid already took the video down!

  39. #39 Gray Falcon
    November 3, 2011

    It’s a known fact that mortality rates for most vaccinated diseases declined by over 90% prior to the introduction of the vaccine.

    [citation needed]

  40. #40 anarchic teapot
    November 3, 2011

    “By the way are you all afraid to use your real names??”

    Coming from someone who doesn’t, that’s rich enough. Considering that everybody who commented before her is identifiable, it’s hilarious.

    Yes, I’m a coward and proud of it, before she starts on anyone else. Assuming it is a “she” of course.

  41. #41 Chris
    November 3, 2011

    Jim, can you please tell us why the morbidity (rate) of measles went down 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970? Please provide actual citations in your response. Here is the data:

    From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
    Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
    1912 . . . 310.0
    1920 . . . 480.5
    1925 . . . 194.3
    1930 . . . 340.8
    1935 . . . 584.6
    1940 . . . 220.7
    1945 . . . 110.2
    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9
    1985 . . . . . 1.2
    1990 . . . . .11.2

  42. #42 Beamup
    November 3, 2011

    Sorry but I don’t see it this way because Fisher and other so called anti-vaxers typically preach vaccine choice.

    They SAY choice, but then proceed to lie their heads off claiming that vaccines have no benefit, cause every ill known to man, etc.

    Mass murder?? It’s a known fact that mortality rates for most vaccinated diseases declined by over 90% prior to the introduction of the vaccine.

    Even if we were to assume 99% reduction in mortality, when essentially every child gets all the nasty diseases, that will end up being millions of deaths. So yes, mass murder.

  43. #43 MI Dawn
    November 3, 2011

    @Chris: but we all KNOW that it’s only the mortality rate that counts to people like Jim. It doesn’t matter if fewer people are also getting the diseases (which also means fewer people are suffering from the consequences of the diseases). It’s only the death rate that counts. And obviously, we had an amazing improvement in public health between 195 and 1970 to have the disease rate drop so fast. Right? /sarcasm

    @Jim: No one denies that the improvement in medicine, public water supplies, etc have helped with the decrease in some diseases. The improvements in medical care have certainly helped with the death rates. But why should we even suffer from the disease if it can be prevented? And, like smallpox, measles COULD be eradicated in the world if enough people were vaccinated, since it has no non-human vectors. Why are you against that?

    As for “loon” and “quack”: it’s better than being called murderers, Pharma Shills, cannibals, and other lies like that. Show me ANY vaccine post by Mercola or Adams that doesn’t imply that doctors only give vaccines for the money, and I’ll apologize for using loon and quack myself.

    (And why would doctors want to give vaccines to make money, which is, at most, a 3 time hit, when they could make a LOT more money on office and home visits with sick children? Same with drug companies. Vaccines aren’t high on any companies profit list, but boy, can they make money on antibiotics, painkillers, fever reducers, other medications used during vaccine-preventable illnesses. And a lot of drug companies also make supplements – which Mercola and Adams LOVE – I don’t hear you calling Mercola and Adams Pharma Shills….)

  44. #44 Renate
    November 3, 2011

    And if we compare the words “loon” or “quack”, with the nasty cancer cartoons on Mike Adams site, I think the words that are used by dr. Orac and others here, aren’t that bad.

  45. #45 Chris
    November 3, 2011

    Beamup:

    They SAY choice, but then proceed to lie their heads off claiming that vaccines have no benefit, cause every ill known to man, etc.

    I used to criticize NVIC’s whooping cough page because it only talked about the DTP vaccine and all of its references were old. Then they revamped the site, and I looked at it again. They added some stuff, but it is full of cherry picking and often lying though by omission. Plus its bibliography of references is just full of fail (it looks like it was formatted by a fourth grader).

    On NVIC’s pertussis (whooping cough) page are these words: “Other Serious Reported Adverse Events:…., encephalopathy, headache, hypotonia, ear pain, apnea, cough, angiodema, pruritis, rash, fatigue and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS).”

    Then I click on the link that information apparently came from above, the link labeled “About INFANRIX Vaccine in Brief.” It is an FDA page about the vaccine. That list of adverse events is listed after this paragraph:

    In addition to reports in clinical trials, worldwide voluntary reports of adverse events received for INFANRIX since market introduction are listed below. This list includes serious events and events which have a plausible causal connection to INFANRIX. These adverse events were reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size; therefore, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequency or establish a causal relationship to vaccination.

    Why was this omitted? It makes it seem that the vaccine is more dangerous than what the data show. Which is why it is called lying through omission.

    The DTaP has been used for over a decade, so there should be fewer references to the dangers of the DTP vaccine. Also, it would be more honest to actually refer to the proper vaccine on the line that says: “Pediatrics – August 2005 study on effectiveness of DPT vaccine.” The link goes to a paper titled “Pertussis Vaccine Effectiveness Among Children 6 to 59 Months of Age in the United States, 1998–2001″, and is about about 3 DTaP and 2 DTP vaccines, not the non-existent “DPT” vaccine.

    That is not the only reference that NVIC poorly formatted, one is just a title of a book (Harrison’s Principles of Internal Medicine). If NVIC is to be considered a top notch organization, it should at least use a standard reference format. Also it would be more professional to use the proper name of the whole cell diphtheria/tetanus/pertussis vaccine.

    Also several pertinent papers have been ignored. Jim, that is called “cherry picking.” Here are just a few that NVIC misses:

    Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.
    Ray P, Hayward J, Michelson D, Lewis E, Schwalbe J, Black S, Shinefield H, Marcy M, Huff K, Ward J, Mullooly J, Chen R, Davis R; Vaccine Safety Datalink Group.

    Vaccine. 2007 Jun 21;25(26):4875-9. Epub 2007 Mar 16.
    Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.
    Vennemann MM, Höffgen M, Bajanowski T, Hense HW, Mitchell EA.

    Expert Rev Vaccines. 2005 Apr;4(2):173-84.
    Acellular pertussis vaccines in Japan: past, present and future.
    Watanabe M, Nagai M.

  46. #46 Calli Arcale
    November 3, 2011

    MI Dawn:

    Same with drug companies. Vaccines aren’t high on any companies profit list, but boy, can they make money on antibiotics, painkillers, fever reducers, other medications used during vaccine-preventable illnesses.

    I just peeked at Wikipedia’s list of bestselling drugs, by sales in US dollars. It’s not terribly current; it’s for 2006. But the number two pharmaceutical product in 2006 was Advair. This is an asthma medication. Although asthma tends to run in families, it can also be brought on by severe upper respiratory tract infections which damage the lungs and airways. Examples of these infections include measles, whooping cough, and influenza. Six other asthma meds were in the top 200. No vaccine actually made the list. Tamiflu, an antiviral designed for fighting influenza, made the list at #40. Vaccines reduce the market for some real blockbuster drugs; the pharma shill argument is ridiculous.

    Of course, Big Pharma does have a financial reason to endorse vaccination — the economy is better and they have more customers when people aren’t dying in droves. But that should be motiviation for all of us, not just Big Pharma.

  47. #47 Chris
    November 3, 2011

    MI Dawn:

    @Chris: but we all KNOW that it’s only the mortality rate that counts to people like Jim. It doesn’t matter if fewer people are also getting the diseases (which also means fewer people are suffering from the consequences of the diseases).

    I now have the opinion that folks like Jim who want children to suffer through measles, pertussis, mumps, chicken pox and even the real flu are sadistic. They want children to suffer and really don’t care if they suffer permanent disabilities.

  48. #48 Calli Arcale
    November 3, 2011

    Correction: three vaccines *did* make the list. Prevnar, for Pneumococcal disease from Wyeth, was #46; Infanrix/Pediarix, a DTaP vaccine from GalxoSmithKline, came in at #115 out of 200; Engerix-B, for HepB and also from GlaxoSmithKline, was #123. I didn’t notice because of the way the list was categorizing these.

    I also didn’t notice some other asthma-related medications which were classed under related conditions instead, like COPD. Once those are listed, there are 16 asthma/COPD/brochospasm drugs in the 200 bestsellers of 2006, and only three vaccines. Because I’m curious, I’m in the process of further sorting the list.

  49. #49 Chris
    November 3, 2011

    Calli Arcale, I found this a while ago. I’m not positive on how accurate it is:
    http://timewellness.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/ihii_useofmed_report.pdf

  50. #50 Jim
    November 3, 2011

    No one denies that the improvement in medicine, public water supplies, etc have helped with the decrease in some diseases. The improvements in medical care have certainly helped with the death rates. But why should we even suffer from the disease if it can be prevented?

    So, what about the role of contracting these diseases and their protective effect from allergies and autoimmune disease. It seems we may have replaced short termed illness with chronic illness in the majority.

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/3/771

  51. #51 Anton P. Nym
    November 3, 2011

    Jim@30:

    One thing I can say for Mercola and Fisher is that they typically don’t attack vaccine advocates in a childish matter by using words like, “loon” and “quack”.

    I believe that they prefer to infer, rather than state, that “vaccine advocates” are murderous or cannibals or homicidally greedy. Your tone argument is invalid.

    As to the use of pseudonyms, I use this one because my True Name™ could lead people to mistake me for a great many other people including a comedian, an authour, and a past president of a major bank. Thanks to the quirk of having a fairly generic name, this pseudonym identifies me far more uniquely than the one listed in the phone book.

    (That using a ‘nym also cuts down on telephone harassment by cranks and avoids implying that my place of employment endorses my views are but pleasant side effects.)

    — Steve

  52. #52 Chris
    November 3, 2011

    “However, no associations were found between measles vaccination and allergic disease.”

    Seriously, Jim, it is just sick that you think risking a one in a thousand chance of serious complications from measles is better than some allergies. Are you really that sadistic?

  53. #53 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    Jim…I anticipated your remarks about sanitation and safe water supplies with my posting at # 3 above. You do know, don’t you, that TB and measles are spread through “airborne transmission”. Bacterial meningitis for which their are preventive vaccines are “droplet transmission” diseases. No amount of sanitation or safe water is going to protect you from getting these serious diseases.

    And, no modern sanitation and safe drinking water will “save you” once you acquire TB, bacterial meningitis or measles.

    Most cases of Tb are curable with a prolonged course of three antibiotics taken simultaneously…of course if you were exposed to and and actually contract multiple drug resistant TB, then you may succumb to TB.

    The bacteria that I referred to in my posting that cause bacterial meningitis and/or the more deadly bacteremia are treated with IV antibiotics and the patient usually is on a life-sustaining ventilator during their hospitalization. “Curing” meningitis and bacteremia is not the sole goal here, because “cured” patients are frequently left with severe lifelong neurological impairments, limb amputations and major organ damages leading ultimately to organ failures.

    “jim” should be looking at the reports of recent measles outbreaks and perhaps he could inform us how many of the “index cases” are associated with indigenous measles and how many “index cases” are imported from overseas. (Hint, the overseas measles “index cases” traveled to the United States on planes.)

    Perhaps “jim” could enlighten us about his expertise in immunology, vaccine-preventable communicable diseases and his “treatment” recommendations. Why not contact the WHO and the CDC about your “expertise”, Jim? The WHO and the CDC are always interested in new innovative ways to protect the public.

  54. #54 Renate
    November 3, 2011

    Chronic illness in the majority? I tend to doubt this. But look at the terrible side-effects of having a vaccine preventable disease, not to mention the effects of getting polio and probably spend a life-time in an iron lung. Those are real facts and can be prevented by vaccination.

  55. #55 JGC
    November 3, 2011

    Jim @36

    You do understand the a difference between a disease’s mortality rate (the number of deaths due to infection) and its incidence rate (the frequency of new infecton in a population)? There’s a reason why anti-vax advocates cite statistics for mortality rather than incidence–to mislead their audience regarding vaccination’s proven efficacy and afoten to also make a false claim that better hygiene, cleaner water, improved nutrition, etc., will serve in lieu of vaccination.

    But while deaths due to infection did decrease prior to the widespread introduction of public health vaccine programs, principally due to improved medical care received by those people who became infected, disease incidence did not. People still became ill and still suffered all the significant adverse consequences of infection short of death, including all the birth defects associated with rubella, paralysis associated with polio, etc.

    It wasn’t until vaccines became both available and widely administered that disease incidence decreased. For example, in the US incidence of measles decreased 90% in first five years following the licensure of measles vaccine in 1973. (see http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/70/11/1166.pdf)

  56. #56 Chris
    November 3, 2011

    JGC, there is a minor error in that paper. The first measles vaccines were licensed ten years before (which is why their graph ends in 1975). It may be a big ol’ typo.

    See the Measles Chapter of the CDC Pink Book:

    Following licensure of vaccine in 1963, the incidence
    of measles decreased by more than 98%, and 2–3-year
    epidemic cycles no longer occurred. Because of this success,
    a 1978 Measles Elimination Program set a goal to eliminate
    indigenous measles by October 1, 1982 (26,871 cases were
    reported in 1978). The 1982 elimination goal was not met,
    but in 1983, only 1,497 cases were reported (0.6 cases per
    100,000 population), the lowest annual total ever reported
    up to that time.

    Here is a table that sums it up (from CDC Pink Book Appendix G, with some editing):

    Disease: Measles in the USA
    Year__Cases___Deaths
    1961__423,919_434
    1962__481,530_408
    1963__385,156_364
    (^^ first vaccine licensed)
    1964__458,083_421
    1965__261,905_276
    1966__204,136_261
    1967___62,705__81
    1968___22,231__24
    1969___25,826__41
    1970___47,351__89
    1971___75,290__90
    (^^^ MMR licensed)
    1972___32,275__24
    1973___26,690__23
    1974___22,690__20
    1975___24,374__20
    1976___41,126__12
    1977___57,245__15
    1978___26,871__11
    (^^^ Measles Elimination Program started)
    1979___13,597___6
    1980___13,506__11
    1981____2,124___2

  57. #57 Jim
    November 3, 2011

    Ok, so I typed up a big post and lost it because I forgot to put in name/email. It contained links to published studies.
    Basically it refered to Vitamin A and reduced mortality from measles. Google it…
    It also referred to mortality rates in the developed world as compared to the developing world. Measles mortality is much higher in individuals with inadequate nutrition.
    And there were many studies on how natural exposure to measles resulted in lower incidence of asthma and a host of other allergic disorders..
    I have no more time here..but appreciated the discussion.

  58. #58 Gray Falcon
    November 3, 2011

    Jim, did you read Chris’ stats? People weren’t exactly malnourished in the 1950’s.

  59. #59 Beamup
    November 3, 2011

    AKA “I’m going to just make up a bunch of BS with some bogus excuse for not providing any actual supporting evidence.” Doesn’t fly; without the evidence the claims mean less than nothing.

  60. #60 JayK
    November 3, 2011

    @Jim: “Links to published studies”

    If they’re like the first published study that he cited, they have no relevance to the conversation or his conclusions. Has anyone actually tried to contact Delta Air about this?

  61. #61 herr doktor bimler
    November 3, 2011

    I might be inclined to take you more seriously if you did [use your real name]

    Oh joy, an anonymous person on the Internet might be inclined to take me more seriously! I am validated and gratified!

  62. #62 JGC
    November 3, 2011

    Re: #56
    Thanks for the catch Chris–it does look like a typo in Englehart’s first paragraph.

    Re: #57

    I notice you’re still narrowly speaking to mortality due to infectious disease (in this case mealses). is there a reason why you’re being so narrowly focused, when one of the greatest benefits to society vaccnination offers is reducing the incidence of disease and all associated adverse consequences which fall short of people actually dying?

  63. #63 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    “Has anyone actually tried to contact Delta Air about this?”

    Of course I have!!!. I telephoned corporate headquarters to get the email addresses of Delta’s CEO Richard H. Anderson and/or the Chief Medical Officer. I spoke to the switchboard, got transferred to two other people and was told that email addresses are not given out.

    I was also told that a person could lodge a complaint at their website Delta.com and that it would be forwarded to an appropriate person.

    Meanwhile, I have an email composed earlier this morning, addressed to the CEO sitting in my “drafts” folder, awaiting any other suggestions from you guys.

    Has anyone located the “disappearing You Tube Delta PSA video” that was taken down earlier?

  64. #64 Narad
    November 3, 2011

    I spoke to the switchboard, got transferred to two other people and was told that email addresses are not given out.

    It’s nominally richard-dot-anderson-at-delta-dot-com. I wouldn’t expect this address to actually deliver directly, though. You could always see if you could drum up some support over at the Flyertalk Delta forum, I suppose, but I’d be very careful not to be argumentative, as there are a lot of long-timers.

  65. #65 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    @ Narad: I just finished posting a “complaint” at Delta.com and requested an email reply:

    “A friend who is a physician took a flight on Delta Airlines and told me about a Public Service Announcement video which was shown on his flight. It was sponsored by the National Vaccine Information Center…a notorious anti-vaccination internet website, that dispenses pseudoscientific medical information and discourages immunizations.

    This particular PSA about influenza is quite offensive and I am amazed that Delta condones the advice offered about this anti-vaccination group. Isn’t Delta concerned about transmission of communicable diseases and the recommendations from the Centers for Disease Control to be immunized each year against influenza?

    I am a public health nurse who has investigated disease transmission aboard airplanes.”

    Thanks so much for the email address…I’ll try it now with the email in my “draft” folder.

  66. #66 Liz Ditz
    November 3, 2011

    I’m watching it right now at http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=IMAvids#p/u/5/WC8jYCk2MvQ.

    Not sure if the link is to exactly that video, but it’s still in the list at Youtube.

  67. #67 Sid Offit
    November 3, 2011

    @baglady

    You do know, don’t you, that TB and measles are spread through “airborne transmission”. Bacterial meningitis for which their are preventive vaccines are “droplet transmission” diseases. No amount of sanitation or safe water is going to protect you from getting these serious diseases.

    Good one baglady. Haha:

    http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=9837#description

    Tuberculosis emerged as an epidemic in the 1600s, began to decline as sanitation improved in the 19th century, and retreated further when effective therapy was developed in the 1950s. TB was virtually forgotten until a recent resurgence in the U.S. and around the world-ominously, in forms resistant to commonly used medicines.

  68. #68 Sid Offit
    November 3, 2011

    Public health nurse nut.

  69. #69 Rene F. Najera
    November 3, 2011

    @Laura

    Alright. There’s my name. Your move.

  70. #70 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    @ Narad: It works!!!!

    I emailed the CEO at Delta at richard.anderson@delta.com
    and just received an “auto reply” about the prior complaint I lodged at delta.com

  71. #71 Sid Offit
    November 3, 2011

    @JGC

    principally due to improved medical care received by those people who became infected

    Citation needed

  72. #72 Rene F. Najera
    November 3, 2011

    And what are your credentials, Mr. Schecter? What makes you an expert in biology or any other field of science?

    We’ve had this conversation before, Bob. Thinking that Big Bad Voodoo Government is out to get you and that you are the only one who can hear their secret transmissions (or whatever the hell gets under your skin about vaccines) doesn’t make you an authority, let alone right, about vaccines.

  73. #73 Liz Ditz
    November 3, 2011

    I have a comment in moderation giving the link to the NVIC IMA video on youtube–it is still up, but the Every Child By Two video is down.

    Here’s an extract from the pitch letter from In-Flight Media Associates (IMA) for the fall “Cold, Flu and Fall Allergy Season” segment of Lifestyle365″

    ·Delta Air Lines: Segment to air for a full calendar month on over 17,375 flights in front of an average of 2.5 million passengers
    ·Delta and Virgin America’s fleets are equipped with WIFI, passengers watching the program can log into your website right from their seat using their laptops or smart phones and instantly make a donation and learn more about your cause

    The pitch also had some price figures for a 5 minute video on both Delta and Virgin. I’m guessing production and placement for the video cost somewhere around $20,000-$30,000.

    What I want to know is where does NVIC get its funding? Nickel and dime contributions

  74. #74 Narad
    November 3, 2011

    OK, if you want something that might go through on its own, try Chris Babb, Senior Product Manager, retitled from IFE to Customer Experience Planning: chris-dot-b-dot-babb-at-delta-dot-com.

    I would of course explain that any mail being directed his way is in the hope that his previous role in the in-flight entertainment division might facilitate comments’ being directed to the appropriate party most efficiently rather than, you know, just creepy address-mining.

  75. #75 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    No Offal, I am a recently retired public health nurse who actually was educated in immunology and disease transmission. My clinical experiences in the division of communicable disease control in a County health department and in public health clinics trumps your experiences as a “commodities investor” or whatever, as well as your experiences as a failed blogger.

    I have a BSc-Nursing degree and am licensed as a registered nurse. What would your university-conferred degree be…and what would your particular professional license be?

  76. #76 Narad
    November 3, 2011

    (I failed to note that Mr. Babb has also been a poster on the Delta blog, so the suggestion isn’t entirely out of the blue.)

  77. #77 Sid Offit
    November 3, 2011

    @baglady

    I am a recently retired public health nurse

    Yes, I know. You waste no opportunity to subject us to that fact any time an opportunity presents itself. But I’m surprised they didn’t teach you that sanitation played a large role in the decline of TB during the time you were acquiring your degrees, licenses, credentials and clinical experience.

  78. #78 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    Thanks again to Narad. Might I suggest that posters here write their own emails to delta.com and to the CEO at the email that Narad provided.

    @ Rene: I’ve been following you on twitter and look forward to the day when you are posting…sans gas mask.

  79. #79 Sid Offit
    November 3, 2011

    @baglady

    What would your university-conferred degree be…and what would your particular professional license be?

    Bachelor of Science (Fire Science), City University of New York, 1988.

    No license to think required.

  80. #80 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    @ Offal: **We are still waiting for information about your education and professional licensing.

    Nice that you again are changing the subject about transmission of TB…so typical of you, Offal.

    **I suppose this means that Sid has no education in the sciences and has been busted playing “liar’s poker”.

    Thanks for the laughs Offal…your postings are always a trip and a half.

  81. #81 Igor
    November 3, 2011

    @69:

    Citation needed

    A curious demand coming from the same person parroting the following ad nauseum without even quoting a historical treatise, let alone a scientific study:

    By the time vaccines did get around to wiping out smallpox the disease was, due to “better sanitation and refrigeration”, a largely harmless shell of it’s former self

    Posted by: Sid Offit | October 30, 2009

    In case of measles, I am confident Sid will vindicate himself by producing a text detailing great advances in refrigeration and sanitation that took place between ’66 and ’67.

    BTW, was that an implicit admission that vaccines wiped out smallpox, albeit in its weakened state?

  82. #82 Narad
    November 3, 2011

    No license to think required.

    Nor call for one, plainly. The real question is your Chicken Inspector badge number.

  83. #83 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    @ Offal: Thanks for providing your “fire science” degree credentials…I assume that is from the John Jay College of Criminal Justice-CUNY. Why didn’t you take the NYC Fire Department civil service exam? It would have provided you with a steady income and a chance for advancement.

    Of course, a “fire science” degree confers a special knowledge about the epidemiology of human diseases…sure it does.

    P.S. My brother got that same degree, retired as a lieutenant from the NYCFD. He furthered his education with a masters degree and taught in a suburban school district….and he knew nada, zilch, bupkes…about immunology and disease transmission.

  84. #84 Igor
    November 3, 2011

    Hmm fire science? Is that anything like forensics? I wonder what Sid thinks about combustion in chemistry? Or maybe phlogiston is still the preferred theory he uses to explain how the fire started?

    At any rate, if his “fire science” is the basis for the testimonies of the fire marshals I used to depose, I’ll be amazed Sid can even light a match.

  85. #85 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    @ Narad: Sid is licensed as a chicken inspector?

    Is he a “specialist” in inspecting chicken innards?

    Did his name “Offal” give him an “in” with the chicken licensing board? Inquiring minds want to know!

  86. #86 Kae
    November 3, 2011

    [Quote MI Dawn]

    “I’m 50, and recall the fears of the days when measles, mumps, chicken pox all caused many days of missed school, days stuck in bed, some hospitalizations and deaths.”

    I’m 51 and from MI and I don’t recall any of this fearmongering.

  87. #87 Chris
    November 3, 2011

    Kae, you must have had protective parents. I know when I walked in on my mother in the kitchen talking to a neighbor I only heard that some issue with some child due to measles. But they stopped when they saw me.

    Of course, our anecdotes are nothing compared to the actual data, which I have posted twice in the form of tables.

  88. #88 Igor
    November 3, 2011

    I’m 51 and from MI and I don’t recall any of this fearmongering.

    My mother couldn’t recall anyone getting measles when she was growing up. Clearly this means there’s no such thing as measles.

    I bet you also don’t recall many kids with neurological diseases or certain developmental disabilities?

  89. #89 laura
    November 3, 2011

    @19 MI Dawn
    I am 68- remember having chicken pox, measles, mumps-not pleasant. Had the small pox vaccine. I am not anti-vax but really question the current schedule of vaccine administration and get called a troll when I want solid facts. 1 in 6 children are developmentally disabled-(CDC stats) I am not convinced that it is because of better diagnoses. I am not convinced that the current schedule of vaccines are safe -there are many MDs who agree-Dr. Jay Gordon’s practice is trashed here however-
    As for the antigens that a newborn is exposed to- a total unnecessary Hep B shot?

  90. #90 Liz Ditz
    November 3, 2011

    from Kae

    I’m 51 and from MI and I don’t recall any of this fearmongering.

    I’m a decade older than you.

    I clearly remember half-full classrooms during a wave of measles — and the classmate who didn’t come back. No, she didn’t die, but had significant cognitive disabilities and was sent to an institution.

    The mumps were a misery — I spent days lying limply in bed, too sick to read, even. I’m pretty sure it was fourth grade, and I know I missed three weeks of school. That would certainly contribute to academic achievement, now wouldn’t it?

    I had three schoolmates affected by polio — braces for two, and a withered arm for the third. Unhappily for her, it was her dominant arm.

    But memory is not evidence. For just one disease:

    From Orenstein WA, Papania MJ, Wharton ME. Measles elimination in the United States. J Infect Dis 2004;189(Suppl1):S1–3:

    In the United States, measles caused 450 reported deaths and 4,000 cases of encephalitis annually before measles vaccine became available in the mid-1960s.

  91. #91 Sid Offit
    November 3, 2011

    @baglady

    Why the scare quotes around fire science?

  92. #92 alison
    November 3, 2011

    Jim @ #50: So, what about the role of contracting these diseases and their protective effect from allergies and autoimmune disease.

    AFAIK IgG is involved in immune responses to infectious diseases while allergic responses involve IgE

  93. #93 Todd W.
    November 3, 2011

    @laura

    I am not anti-vax but really question the current schedule of vaccine administration

    Why? What gives you cause to question the current schedule?

    1 in 6 children are developmentally disabled-(CDC stats) I am not convinced that it is because of better diagnoses.

    Is this the reason? Then I’d have to ask, why do you think that vaccines are to blame? What evidence do you have that points to vaccines as a cause?

  94. #94 Igor
    November 3, 2011

    1 in 6 children are developmentally disabled-(CDC stats) I am not convinced that it is because of better diagnoses.

    Why not? Ample evidence has been presented on this blog on how new diagnostic criteria, greater public awareness, greater access to diagnostic testing, etc. would produce such a result. The rise in autistic rate, for example, coincides directly with the publication of DSM IV?

    I am not convinced that the current schedule of vaccines are safe -there are many MDs who agree-Dr. Jay Gordon’s practice is trashed here however-

    What would it take to convince you? How many M.D.s with relevant training disagree? Certainly even as the evidence overwhelmingly showed harm from tobacco smoking there were a few who disagreed and were rightfully trashed for it. Not because they went against the consensus, but because they went against the evidence which resulted on overwhelming consensus among health professionals.

    As for the antigens that a newborn is exposed to- a total unnecessary Hep B shot?

    It is “total [sic] unnecessary” despite existence of non-sexual methods of transmission? You show such certainty when even basic evidence points to the contrary, yet you take offense to being called anti-vax? Questioning vaccines and using demonstrably flawed arguments as pointed out time after time is the definition of anti-vax.

  95. #95 Chris
    November 3, 2011

    laura (via Todd):

    1 in 6 children are developmentally disabled-(CDC stats) I am not convinced that it is because of better diagnoses.

    Oh wow, I missed this. No it not better diagnostics, it is basic statistics. On a normal distribution you will have about about 16% on either side of the mean past one standard deviation. That works out to about 1 in 6.

  96. #96 Liz Ditz
    November 3, 2011

    from laura @86

    1 in 6 children are developmentally disabled-(CDC stats) I am not convinced that it is because of better diagnoses.

    “Developmentally Disabled” sounds horrible and scary, doesn’t it? Like a child who will never learn, or never live independently in adulthood?

    The facts are otherwise.

    The source of the “one in six” is a paper in Pediatrics, Boyle et al. (2011) Trends in the Prevalence of Developmental Disabilities in US Children, 1997–2008 Pediatrics. 2011 Jun;127(6):1034-42. Epub 2011 May 23. doi: 10.1542/peds.2010-2989)

    I have added emphases to this passage from the paper:

    Participants and Methods:We used data on children aged 3 to 17 years from the 1997–2008 National Health Interview Surveys, which are ongoing nationally representative samples of US households. Parent-reported diagnoses of the following were included: attention deficit hyperactivity disorder; intellectual disability; cerebral palsy; autism; seizures; stuttering or stammering; moderate to profound hearing loss; blindness; learning disorders; and/or other developmental delays.

    Screening for and remediating learning disorders are my areas of expertise. I would say the one in six figure (16.6%) is possibly low. Dyslexia is classed as a developmental disability. Some dyslexia experts put the actual prevalence rate at up to 20%.

    Laura, at least in the case of specific learning disability–reading or dyslexia, it is better diagnosis.

  97. #97 laura
    November 3, 2011

    Todd W-
    The cumulative effects of aluminum adjuvants in vaccines-
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20553758

  98. #98 Igor
    November 3, 2011

    “Why the scare quotes around fire science?”

    Because, while fire science is the name of a degree conferred by your particular institution, it is not a science per se as evidenced in other school calling it a degree in Fire Protection and Safety, with advanced degrees in Fire and Emergency Services. The actual science in the Fire Science is limited to courses in general physics and general chemistry. Most liberal arts majors had to adhere to these basic science requirements without graduating with a science degree. Conspicuously absence from “Fire Science” scientific curriculum –biology.

  99. #99 Chris
    November 3, 2011

    laura, it says “Evidence for the neurotoxicity of extended exposure to low levels of aluminum salts is described using an animal model treated with aluminum at low levels reflecting those found in some water supplies.”

    Um, this article is about vaccines, not drinking water. You do there is a difference, especially in the volume used.

  100. #100 Chris
    November 3, 2011

    Also, laura, the one mention of vaccines was to a crap paper that basically tried to create a syndrome, but it was basically “shot can cause a sore arm.” It basically went no where.

  101. #101 Igor
    November 3, 2011

    The cumulative effects of aluminum adjuvants in vaccines

    Do you know why some may rightfully come to a comclusion that you are anti-vax and not interested in an honest inquiry into the causes of neurological disease? Because you take a study titled “The neurotoxicity of environmental aluminum is still an issue” and claim it talks about the cumulative effects of aluminum in vaccines, without even reading the study.

    Let’s see what the study actually says. First, if you actually read the first paragraph of the study, you would know what “environmental aluminum” refers to. Let me give you a hint, it’s not aluminum in the vaccines, but rather aluminum in virtually everything we consume from drinking water to foods. The study concludes:

    While the potential of aluminum for promoting neurodegenerative disease remains controversial, the following statements, which form the headings of the some of the above discussion, are indisputable.

    Aluminum is environmentally prevalent and ingested by humans.
    Acute exposure to aluminum can cause clinical neurotoxicity.
    Elevated levels of intrinsic inflammation are associated with neural aging and this is exacerbated in several neurodegenerative diseases.
    Low levels of aluminum in drinking water of experimental animals, elevate basal levels of inflammatory activity within the CNS.

    The study looks at lifetime exposure to aluminum in our environment, which is orders of magnitude that of all the vaccines combined, and its role in accelerating the onset of neurological diseases associated with aging.

    Surely you can understand how some could be confused by what appears to be intellectual laziness at best or misinformation at worst.

  102. #102 Igor
    November 3, 2011

    Surely, if you were not anti-vax as you contend, Laurie, you would acknowledge that if the paper indicates anything about aluminum at all is that the environmental aluminum found in much greater quantities in everything we eat and drink is to blame, rather than the minute amounts in the vaccines.

    The only reference to vaccines is through a paper which states as follows:

    Macrophagic myofasciitis (MMF), a condition newly recognized in France, is manifested by diffuse myalgias and characterized by highly specific myopathological alterations which have recently been shown to represent an unusually persistent local reaction to intramuscular injections of aluminium-containing vaccines.

    Fortunately, in case you were confused as to what that means, Chris explained above.

  103. #103 Chris
    November 3, 2011

    Yeah, basically that is it.

    (I hate it when I read a comment I made while in a rush and find some basic silliness)

  104. #104 Shay
    November 3, 2011

    Kae, I’m 56 and from Michigan and I don’t remember “fearmongering” — but I do remember getting most of the now-preventable (through vaccines) childhood diseases along with my siblings, schoolmates and cousins. It was a miserable experience (and in case “Jim” is wondering, in southeastern Michigan in the 1950’s and 60’s we had clean drinking water, indoor plumbing, nutritious food and reasonably good medical care).

    You were either very lucky or have a faulty memory.

  105. #105 Sid Offit
    November 3, 2011

    @Igor

    I’m glad you can read baglady’s mind through your computer. Anyway, I’m waiting on those miracle medical treatments that reduced pertussis and measles mortality.

  106. #106 Igor
    November 3, 2011

    I’m glad you can read baglady’s mind through your computer.

    Silly Sid, you need a degree in Computer Science to be able to do that.

    Anyway, I’m waiting on those miracle medical treatments that reduced pertussis and measles mortality.

    Don’t wait too long. Waiting for evidence of a miracle treatment might make you spontaneously combust, requiring another Fire Scienctist to investigate. Although I can see how you may consider anything more complex then refrigeration and sanitation to be miraculous.

  107. #107 Lawrence
    November 3, 2011

    Sid – let’s see, perhaps increased access to modern medical care, more & better doctors, better treatments for the symptoms of the diseases, antibiotics to treat secondary opportunistic infections / diseases, and the whole host of other advances in modern medical science over the past 100 years.

    You are a complete and utter tool. Vaccines prevent disease, while modern medical care means less people die when they do get the disease.

    Your insults towards llilady are unneccesary and obscene – if you don’t have actual facts to convey here, why don’t you crawl back under your rock and go away.

  108. #108 Igor
    November 3, 2011

    Vaccines prevent disease, while modern medical care means less people die when they do get the disease.

    Nonsense, it’s like claiming that advances in fire science and firefighting technology resulted in fewer deaths and less destruction from fire outbreaks. What’s the evidence for that? If anything, technology seems to cause more fires.

  109. #109 Sid Offit
    November 3, 2011

    Larry, the antibiotics came 60 years after the decline started. You would have been better off imitating Igor and evading the question entirely. And the oh so specific grasping at straws in the form of:

    “increased access to modern medical care, more & better doctors, better treatments for the symptoms of the diseases”

  110. #110 Chris
    November 3, 2011

    Mr. Schecter, you should a read bit of history. I am really shocked that you have never heard of antibiotics, or knew that bacterial pneumonia is a secondary complication of measles. Or even that pertussis is bacterial, but antibiotics don’t help much. Though respiratory support does. Here are some papers that are not behind a pay wall:
    INHALATIONAL THERAPY IN ACUTE RESPIRATORY INFECTIONS, MEASLES, WHOOPING COUGH AND PNEUMONIA
    and The Management of Acute Upper Airway Obstruction in Childhood.

    It is actually a better choice to prevent measles. Did you notice that table I posted where the rate of measles (morbidity) decreased by 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970. Don’t you think that is better than treating the children in hospitals?

    You should, since public California funds were used to about twenty years ago, and more recently:

    Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.
    Chavez GF, Ellis AA.
    West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug;165(1-2):20-5.

    Measles epidemic from failure to immunize.
    Dales LG, Kizer KW, Rutherford GW, Pertowski CA, Waterman SH, Woodford G.
    West J Med. 1993 Oct;159(4):455-64.

    Pediatrics. 2010 Apr;125(4):747-55. Epub 2010 Mar 22.
    Measles outbreak in a highly vaccinated population, San Diego, 2008: role of the intentionally undervaccinated.
    Sugerman DE, Barskey AE, Delea MG, Ortega-Sanchez IR, Bi D, Ralston KJ, Rota PA, Waters-Montijo K, Lebaron CW.

  111. #111 Chris
    November 3, 2011

    Mr. Schecter:

    Larry, the antibiotics came 60 years after the decline started.

    [citation required]

  112. #112 herr doktor bimler
    November 3, 2011

    I … get called a troll when I want solid facts

    I read somewhere that you might be taken more seriously if you used your real name.

  113. #113 herr doktor bimler
    November 3, 2011

    Macrophagic myofasciitis (MMF), a condition newly recognized in France

    Stay out of France and you’re safe. It doesn’t seem to have spread.

  114. #114 Denice Walter
    November 3, 2011

    To the unseen and unheard lurkers silently and resplendently
    Observing us from the limitless depths of cyberspace:

    I survey material from anti-vaxxers, HIV/AIDS denialists, and those who advocate against pharmaceutical treatment for SMI and sometimes notice interesting overlaps – today Seth Kalichman informs us that a well-known HIV/AIDS denialist (Christian Fiala) is also opposed to Gardasil vaccines. Other woo-meisters score a “perfect” 3 out of 3.

    Now why do you suppose that is? Do you imagine that these people become anti-vax ( for whatever reasons) and then pick up one or two other types of SBM denial? Or might there be another factor that lies behind all of these choices? Why might people oppose medical innovations that prevent ( vaccines, HIV testing) and/or ameliorate symptoms of serious illness ( pharmaceuticals for SMI,HIV/AIDS)?

  115. #115 Narad
    November 3, 2011

    Sid is licensed as a chicken inspector?

    Not No. 23, to be certain.

  116. #116 Chris
    November 3, 2011

    Oh, I just had a thought: Mr. Schecter, don’t you think the use of indoor plumbing and sewer systems would be a factor in reducing overall mortality, including those patients that are ill? And how do you get accurate mortality numbers from the 19th century?

    Still, look at the tables I posted. Those reductions are not that obvious.

  117. #117 Igor
    November 3, 2011


    You would have been better off imitating Igor and evading the question entirely.

    I resent that, having observed years worth of your responses on this blog, if anything Larry would be imitating you. When my five year old asks are we there yet for the 50th time in 3 minutes, a couple of “Nos” were quite responsive despite the fact that he was not satisfied with the answer. I didn’t avoid the question, I avoided the 5 year old.

  118. #118 Brian
    November 3, 2011

    @Alison 89:

    Yes, this is true (to an extent – vaccines can result in IgA response, also, which is partly why the oral polio vaccine is so great). There is some evidence (I don’t know how strong, offhand) that early exposure to certain infectious diseases results in a Th1 bias, which may prevent atopic asthma (and, I would imagine by extension, allergies).

  119. #119 laura
    November 3, 2011

    @igor 101
    I did not claim it was about vaccines.
    I answered the question Todd W asked in @93- What gives you cause to question the current schedule?
    This was in the study-
    “Aluminum salts can increase levels of glial activation, inflammatory cytokines and amyloid precursor protein within the brain.”
    I am concerned about the developing newborn brain receiving the aluminum adjuvants plus other possible neurotoxins in the vaccines and the possible cumulative effect which may not show up until a later age.

  120. #120 lilady
    November 3, 2011

    The trolls are out in force again…with the same tired boring arguments against vaccines.

    Offal, you need to stop dwelling on sanitation preventing droplet and airborne diseases and antibiotics curing viral diseases. Yes we have heard over and over again your spiel and are underwhelmed by your knowledge of basic science. And, you are too far removed from your “fire science” degree to even speak cogently about fire prevention and fire codes. When Orac blogs about fires, we will notify you.

    Laura, aren’t these the very same arguments against vaccine that you made on prior blogs…they have that same smell about them. Perhaps you should toddle on over to Offal’s blog…he could use some interesting posts.

  121. #121 Igor
    November 4, 2011

    I did not claim it was about vaccines. I answered the question Todd W asked in @93- What gives you cause to question the current schedule?

    Oh my bad. I didn’t realize a study talking about aluminum ever present in everything we consume as one of the naturally occurring elements made you concerned about it ALSO present in vaccines in insignificant quantities. Since this was about environmental aluminum then this study should make you concerned about water you drink and food you eat becing the cause of neurological disorders. I’m glad you clarified that the study had nothing to do with the vaccines.

    Aluminum salts can increase levels of glial activation, inflammatory cytokines and amyloid precursor protein within the brain.

    If you bothered reading the actual study instead of picking words out of the abstract the significance of which you are barely qualified to comprehend, you would be referred to my original point that the study is of chronic exposure to environmental aluminum. Notice how we don’t put oxygen masks on all infants despite the fact that over the course of their lifetime they will inhale large amounts dust and harmful particles.

    You cherry pick one sentence out of an Abstractof a study designed to test long term exposure to aluminum on an aging brain being either too lazy or too ignorant to read the entire article and then you claim that you are not an anti-vax. If that’s how you find points of concern I’m surprised you managed to get out of bed this morning and are actually touching the keyboard. The fact that you are only this lazy and careless with respect to vaccines and not all the other sources of aluminum infants can’t avoid shows you are a liar.

  122. #122 Igor
    November 4, 2011

    Laura didn’t even bother to read the article. She found one line in the Abstract, has no idea what that means within the context of the article and its conclusions, and thinks it’s cause for concern. I am frankly more concerned about the damage such stupidity does to the average reader of this blog.

  123. #123 laura
    November 4, 2011

    @igor – O brilliant one-cite me some evidence that the current vaccine schedule is safe.

  124. #124 Gray Falcon
    November 4, 2011

    O brilliant one-cite me some evidence that the current vaccine schedule is safe.

    Check out this:http://www.biology.ed.ac.uk/research/groups/jdeacon/microbes/airborne.htm. If we can handle that, then a few vaccines aren’t going to do much damage.

  125. #125 laura
    November 4, 2011

    @Igor-vaccines did injure. Why?
    @Gray Falcon -the current vaccine schedule is not a few. It was not in effect 20 years ago. Read @56 only 2 measles deaths in 1981.

  126. #126 Liz Ditz
    November 4, 2011

    @124: Laura’s demand

    cite me some evidence that the current vaccine schedule is safe.

    No Laura, you have to make your case that the current vaccine schedule is unsafe. Especially unsafe compared to the conditions the vaccines protect our children from.

    You haven’t done that yet — either part.

  127. #127 lilady
    November 4, 2011

    Igor…I think it is way past Laura’s bedtime. I have noticed on all of the many blogs that she posts on, a decided sundowning effect as the day progresses.

  128. #130 Gray Falcon
    November 4, 2011

    the current vaccine schedule is not a few. It was not in effect 20 years ago.

    It’s still far, far less than what you would get from a simple papercut.

    Read @56 only 2 measles deaths in 1981.

    And over three hundred a year in 1963. What caused the change?

  129. #131 Skepacabra
    November 4, 2011

    The anti-vax film “The Greater Good” opens at NYC’s IFC Center on Nov. 18 for one week. Any suggestions on countering it? Are there particularly good pamphlets that could be passed out? Or does anyone have any suggestions on alternative activist approaches?

  130. #132 novalox
    November 4, 2011

    @laura

    [citation please]

  131. #133 Narad
    November 4, 2011

    Or does anyone have any suggestions on alternative activist approaches?

    Completely ignoring it seems promising. Sometimes you just have to hope that the Jodorowsky audience can figure out things for themselves.

  132. #134 David N. Brown
    November 4, 2011

    @30: “If a public message suggests that people should read the package insert of the vaccine, what’s the damage?”

    From my observations, vaccine inserts lend themselves to abuse because they may mention something that is not even a known or plausible side effect, simply to cover the manufacturer’s rear if they’re blamed for it. Then the paranoid “vaccine blamers” latch onto as evidence that the vax DOES have that effect. Witness, in my experience, an online commenter who kept presenting an insert saying “not evaluated for mutagenic effects” as evidence that vaccines were unsafe.

    Also, on the NVIC: From my experience, this organization is careful enough to get at least the basic facts correct (in contrast to routine debacles like “18/3=29″ Rotateq royalties figure from AoA and GR). This puts them a cut above what seem to be typical anti-vaxxers, but that could make them more dangerous.

    David N. Brown
    Mesa, Arizona

  133. #136 Narad
    November 4, 2011

    I don’t think that throwing Brownstein into the slop bucket much helps your case, Laura.

  134. #137 laura
    November 4, 2011

    @narad-you haven’t posted anything besides your ramblings.

  135. #138 novalox
    November 4, 2011

    @laura

    [citation please]

  136. #139 alison
    November 4, 2011

    Laura (@ 119) – did you actually read what previous commenters said? Aluminium is found in pretty much everything we eat & drink. Even breast milk contains it (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/112/6/1394.full). So why do you think it’s the Al in vaccines that’s harmful?

  137. #140 Lawrence
    November 4, 2011

    LOL – so Sid, you are denying that a person who gets sick today (or 10, 20, or even 30 years ago) doesn’t have access to more modern and better medical care than say someone from the 19th Century?

  138. #141 Lawrence
    November 4, 2011

    This is what happens when I post so early – was supposed to say, denying that people today have access to more and better medical care than in the past….

    Pretty stupid statement their Sid – but then again, you’re just a troll.

  139. #142 MI Dawn
    November 4, 2011

    Woo-Hoo!!!! The flu vaccine has mercury AND formaldehyde in it! I got mine about 2 weeks ago and have definitely noticed a problem: I actually READ what laura posts instead of ignoring her trolling. And yes, laura, ignoring the FACTS about what your article says about environmental aluminum IS trolling…

    Brownstein’s article is HYSTERICAL! laura, I really have to thank you for the laughs. I would never have come across his rantings otherwise, as I tend to avoid idiocy. He may be a MD, but he is NOT a good physician.

    I was amused by all the people from Michigan who “didn’t recall” VPDs from their childhood. I’ll cut them a little slack – maybe 1)their memories are so bad they don’t recall or 2)I had more exposure to parental concerns as my house tended to be where the moms all met for tea and talk in the afternoons (and yes, I would eavesdrop; you heard the most interesting stuff that way!)

    And I think my elementary school was a bit different from many; we may not have had classes with the DD kids, but we certainly knew how many kids there were in the “dumb room” and were shocked when one of our friends ended up in there after having measles. And, obviously, the other posters don’t recall “tracked” classes where you were broken up into 3 or more groups. There were always the 5-7 kids in the “slow readers” class in every grade I was in. Perhaps they didn’t have diagnoses of ADHD, ASD, dyslexia…but those kids were around. At least in my town.

  140. #143 Jud
    November 4, 2011

    Just loved this quote from laura’s latest citation (by “one of the foremost practitioners of holistic medicine,” says the bio snippet at the end):

    “Mercury…is the third-most toxic element known to mankind.”

    Wow, that sounds all science-y and stuff. A ranking of elements according to “toxicity” – where can I find this ranking, should be great fun. If mercury ranks third, that’s ahead of a couple of dozen highly radioactive elements, which implies that anyone who’s ever come near a mercury thermometer should be dead.

  141. #144 Marry Me, Mindy
    November 4, 2011

    I did not claim it was about vaccines.
    I answered the question Todd W asked in @93- What gives you cause to question the current schedule?

    Laura – do you think we are dumb? I mean, your words are still right there in your post:

    The cumulative effects of aluminum adjuvants in vaccines-
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20553758

    So what do you mean “you didn’t claim it was about vaccines”? That is EXACTLY what you said it was about.

    Goodness, most trolls are more subtle about it.

  142. #145 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    November 4, 2011

    I don’t know whether I’m up too early or too late, but this really caught my eye.

    Plutonium is definitely the most poisonous element—never mind its radioactivity. During the Manhattan project, if you got a crystal half the size of a grain of salt in a cut on your finger, they could maybe save you if they amputated your arm at the shoulder within 20 minutes.

    Mercury (in certain forms) may be toxic, but certainly not as toxic as arsenic or thallium, so there goes third place right there. It couldn’t be that this idiot doesn’t know what he’s talking about, could it? Perish forbid—he’s a Doctor™, after all!

  143. #146 LW
    November 4, 2011

    I like this statement from Brownstein’s article:

    “Another study found that the Flumist vaccine ‘…did not provide any protection against hospitalizations in pediatric subjects, especially children with asthma.'”

    Yeah, giving asthmatics a *live respiratory virus* probably isn’t a net benefit. That probably explains why Flumist isn’t supposed to be given to asthmatics.

  144. #147 Dangerous Bacon
    November 4, 2011

    Fans of crank magnetism will enjoy knowing that laura‘s source for the horrific dangers of the flu vaccine (Dr. David Brownstein) is also anti-water fluoridation:

    “If the U.S. government was concerned about our health, it would remove fluoride from our water supply. Ingesting fluoride through our water supply has never been shown to prevent cavities.”

    ht_p://drdavidbrownstein.blogspot.com/2011_01_01_archive.html

    He also has a website called thesoydeception.com

    I didn’t think “holistic” meant “touting multiple kinds of paranoid craziness”, but I guess that means I lack holisticity.

  145. #148 Igor
    November 4, 2011

    Ingesting fluoride through our water supply has never been shown to prevent cavities.

    Nonsense, all of my uncle’s daughter’s nephew’s kids drink tap water and they still have all their milk teeth. How’s that for proof Dr. Brownstein? I bet Dr. Brownstein is a shill for the Big Dental who has a vested interest in mass tooth decay.

  146. #149 Calli Arcale
    November 4, 2011

    If mercury is the “third most toxic element” and he’s also an anti-flouridation crank, I have to wonder where he ranks flourine. As long as he’s inventing toxicity data, that is.

  147. #150 Jud
    November 4, 2011

    …I lack holisticity.

    Ooh, nice coinage.

  148. #151 lilady
    November 4, 2011

    I’m recalling my childhood and all the mercury in my mouth contained in amalgam fillings, because there was no fluoride in the water, back then.

    We had a lively discussion here a while back about all the open cuts and scraped knees we had, that our moms swabbed mercurochrome and merthiolate (thimerisol) on, from those little brown bottles.

    Of course we all have histories of DPT shots and boosters that had the dreaded thimerisol as did the hepatitis B vaccine and all those yearly flu shots. I must be loaded with mercury.

    If I begin to show signs of dementia (sundowning), like some of our posters here, I’m depending that the “regulars” here will (gently) let me know. We can then discuss chelation for my mercury and aluminum toxicities.

  149. #152 Composer99
    November 4, 2011

    Marry Me, Mindy: I’d say laura is expecting us to be no better or worse than she is herself.

  150. #153 jgc
    November 4, 2011

    For Sid at @71

    While it seems to me demanding a citation to support improved standards of medical care reduced mortality due to measles over the period from 1912 to 1963 (prior to the introduction of measles vaccines) is no different than requiring a citation in support of the availability and widespread use of the Emerson iron lung (invented in 1931) decreased subsequent mortality due to polio prior to the availability of polio vaccines in beginning in 1955, here’s your cite with relevant excerpted text.

    “Another factor comes into play, and this is the knowledge of how to care for children while they are ill. Historically, the treatment of measles, and many other diseases, consisted of cupping, bleeding, purging, and similar empiric remedies. In the latter half of the nineteenth century, the importance of nutrition, hydration, and good general nursing care during any illness came to be appreciated and, along with the improved nutrition
    of children, led to better survival from measles.
    The Natural History of Measles, Axton, J. H. M. Journal Zambezia, Vol. 7, No. 2, 1979 (pp 145)

  151. #154 JGC
    November 4, 2011

    Laura @ 97,

    Laura, did you read the paper you cite? Did you even read the first sentence from the abstract?

    The paper doesn’t address “The cumulative effects of aluminum adjuvants in vaccines”: instead it addresses “extended exposure to low levels of aluminum extended exposure to low levels of aluminum salts is described using an animal model treated with aluminum at low levels reflecting those found in some water supplies.”

  152. #155 Igor
    November 4, 2011

    @JDC:

    “Laura, did you read the paper you cite? Did you even read the first sentence from the abstract?”

    Do cranks ever? When they see something that looks like it supports their cooky theory they get so excited that finishing the actual sentence is sometimes optional. Unfortunately, the problem with Laura’s misuse of the paper has been addressed thoroughly and she managed to dodge making an honest admission of error by citing to the very thing paper tries to explore, to wit, Al neurotoxicity. It’s only a matter of time that someone spells out the entire paper for her and what it means, at which point she will fall back on “injected is worse” gambit.

  153. #156 Chris
    November 4, 2011

    Igor:

    ? When they see something that looks like it supports their cooky theory they get so excited that finishing the actual sentence is sometimes optional.

    Like Lori Harvey, who claimed that when Washington state required a medical practitioner’s signature on the new vaccine exemption form, she listed this page as a way to find sympathetic doctors:
    http://novaxdoctors.webs.com/doctorlist.htm#Washington

    If you look at it, you will see that there is no one in that state.

  154. #157 Igor
    November 4, 2011

    @Chris: This is hilarious. Even if cranks were ultimately correct, the methods used to prove it should make any impartial observer weary of anything they say. I always said that the political spectrum is not a line but a circle, with the fringe extremes on both sides converging. They all believe in similar nonsense, they just take a different approach to reaching their conclusions.

  155. #158 Narad
    November 4, 2011

    @narad-you haven’t posted anything besides your ramblings.

    Beats posting Brownstein’s, I suppose.

  156. #159 Todd W.
    November 4, 2011

    And in other anti-vaccine insanity putting the public at risk: mail order disease (H/T to @EdYong209 on twitter).

  157. #160 Narad
    November 4, 2011

    If you look at it, you will see that there is no one in that state.

    No, there are, but the three that are visible are run together above the broken HTML table. Looking at the source, it appears there’s supposed to be more.

  158. #161 Chris
    November 4, 2011

    I stand corrected. The full thing finally loaded in Windows Explorer, it never did load fully in Firefox. It is a crappy website design. Thank you.

  159. #162 Denice Walter
    November 4, 2011

    Narad has been about as likely to produce “ramblings” as AoA contributors are to begin incorporating data-based path analysis into their arcane models of autism causation in their “research”.

  160. #163 W. Kevin Vicklund
    November 4, 2011

    If you look at it, you will see that there is no one in that state.

    Huh? I count 11, all in cities that can be found in Washington (state). Browser issues, maybe?

  161. #164 Gray Falcon
    November 4, 2011

    Browser issues, as stated in @156. I should also note that at no point did Lori ask herself “Okay, I can clearly see eleven doctors on the list, but Chris doesn’t see any. Why is that happening?” Her us-against-them mentality did her no favors.

  162. #165 Chris
    November 4, 2011

    I love that many of the listings are NDs (Not a Doctor), and most of the phone numbers are “unknown.”

    Actually, when I first tried the website it actually went from Virginia to Wyoming, and loaded quickly on Firefox. I am sure that there have been additions. Or it is a crappy website that only really works in Windows Internet Explorer.

  163. #166 Reuben Gaines
    November 4, 2011

    You all are so worried about Robert Schecter’s (Sid Offit) blogging. Just go to his Facebook page for free medical advice from a guy (and his cronies, gotta give them credit) with a degree in fire science.

    https://www.facebook.com/TheVaccineMachine

    Had a child with a supposed MMR vaccine reaction? They’ll tell you how to treat it! (Hint: Homeopathy)

    Worried about x-rays when you go to the dentist? Let Schecter (and his cronies) tell you if you should get x-rays at all.

    Seriously, Schecter, WTF?

  164. #167 lilady
    November 4, 2011

    @ Reuben: Did you see this gem from the Fire Science Degree vaccine specialist?:

    “One other thing, I don’t know how long ago the shot was but the MMR, being a viral vaccine, never contained mercury/thimerisol.”

    Offal was replying to “Heather” who had just stated her son was presently 4.5 years old. The MMR vaccine never contained thimerisol “being a viral vaccine….”

    We should be grateful that Offal now knows the basic differences between viruses and bacteria, but he is still as dumb as can be about the reasons why thimerisol was used as a preservative in multi-dose vials of vaccines against viral AND bacterial diseases.

    I think we may just as much fun with Offal’s facebook advice as we have had with Dr. Jay’s “tweets”.

  165. #168 Igor
    November 4, 2011

    Although most fire marshals I deposed couldn’t define kindling temperature, Sid brought Fire Science to new lows. Homeopathy? He must have slept through his general chem requirement while studying Fire Science. The only thing he’s qualified to do is light his farts on fire.

  166. #169 Johnny
    November 4, 2011

    Sorta off topic – – – dead child warning.

    Looking at another of my favorite sites, I came across this:

    http://www.shorpy.com/node/11595

    Note the post on that site by the user ‘chrmer’.

    I can’t believe people want this to come back as a fairly common occurrence. Stupid anti-vaxers.

    For those not familiar with Shorpy, the web masters take high res scans of old photos in the National Archives (and a few personal pictures from back in the day), clean them up a (very) little (brightness and contrast, mostly), and post them.

  167. #170 T-reg
    November 4, 2011

    I don’t get it: a sojourn to the physics blogs on this website reveals that they don’t have lay public with no education or training in physics giving their “expert” opinion on how the laws of physics should or should not be unravelled or how they work.
    None of these nutjobs try to pontificate on how aircrafts or space shuttles work or should work or should not work.
    Rocket science is science but an extremely complicated organism that is the human body, and its malfunctions are not perceived as within the realm of science. So anyone who has fingers to type or a mouth to speak comes and gives his own “opinion” when they have no idea how it is that the human body works and how disease sets in (I’m referring to the trolls here) or how drugs (vaccines included) work.

    I see many of the trolls here are confusing science with free speech.

  168. #171 Raincitygirl
    November 4, 2011

    Plutonium is definitely the most poisonous element—never mind its radioactivity. During the Manhattan project, if you got a crystal half the size of a grain of salt in a cut on your finger, they could maybe save you if they amputated your arm at the shoulder within 20 minutes.

    Did that actually happen to someone? Wow.

  169. #172 Vicki
    November 4, 2011

    The plutonium/amputation thing seems (from a very quick google, so I will defer to experts) to be an urban legend: less destructive ways of removing the radioactive contamination seem to have been preferred (including chelation). One source said amputation was considered if radiation-induced necrosis was likely.

    But “we had to amputate his arm immediately to save him” im an impressive story/sound bite, and removing contaminants mechanically or by chelation isn’t.

  170. #173 Dangerous Bacon
    November 4, 2011

    “But “we had to amputate his arm immediately to save him” im an impressive story/sound bite, and removing contaminants mechanically or by chelation isn’t.”

    Just had a great idea – for parents convinced by antivaxers that toxic mercury and aluminum are lurking in their vaccines, how about setting up a clinic where kids get the shots and undergo simultaneous chelation to remove the metals?

    Then again, chelation wouldn’t remove the antifreeze, formaldehyde, polysorbate 80, aborted baby parts and monkey pus. You’d need plasmapheresis for that.

    Anyone wanting to invest in a great business opportunity, e-mail me.

  171. #174 Igor
    November 4, 2011

    @DB: Not that great, the overhead required by chelation is too high. Don’t even know what it’ll be with lasmapheresis. Moreover, these procedures are much more dangerous then so many other bogus options. A clinic combining homepathy and reiki to treat vaccination’s alleged negative effects is much cheaper and less prone to liability. Curing an imaginary problem with an imaginary remedy is the proper way to go.

  172. #175 lilady
    November 4, 2011

    @ Dangerous Bacon: I could use some of that money derived from an immunization/chelation clinic. We need a business plan including a budget line for advertising our “clinic”. Can anyone provide some internet sites which would accept our advertising money?

    I wonder how long we could keep the “clinic” in operation before the recurring memes of greedy doctors and Big Pharma chelation sales would appear?

    I’ve undergone donor platelet apheresis and I now know that all the antifreeze, formaldehyde, polysorbate 80, aborted baby parts and monkey pus from the vaccines I’ve received, must have been removed…that’s why I felt the finger tingling. Rotten lying nurses fed me Tums and told me that the anticoagulants used during the procedure were binding up my blood calcium.

  173. #176 laura duchon
    November 4, 2011

    @lilady-

    Here’s another one to bash-An MD who acutally did the research on aluminum and believes in discussing vaccines with his patients.
    Unfortunately you are too much of a cowgirl and want everyone to follow the CDC schedule- no questions asked- just shoot em up. Do you live in Tombstone Az?

    http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/vaccines/vaccine-faqs

    Laura Duchon

  174. #177 Chris
    November 4, 2011
  175. #178 lilady
    November 4, 2011

    @ laura: So you think that Bob Sears is an expert on aluminum in vaccines, eh?

    I read through his drivel on the link you provided, where he extrapolates (misinterprets) information from the FDA about aluminum toxicity with long term IV solutions use, in premature babies and in impaired kidney function patients.

    LAURA…NO VACCINES ARE GIVEN IV!!!

    Here’s a site from **Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia for you to read up on aluminum adjuvants in vaccines:

    Aluminum in Vaccines: What You Should Know

    Do you live on the Planet Htrae?

    **Where Dr. Paul Offit, one of the foremost experts on immunology, vaccines and diseases, is Chief of Infectious Diseases.

  176. #179 lilady
    November 4, 2011

    Good night laura…you are sundowning again. Sweet dreams.

  177. #180 laura duchon
    November 4, 2011

    Chris and lilady are both fascists. Bye Bye

    Laura Duchon

  178. #181 lilady
    November 4, 2011

    Hi Chris: I consider it a compliment to be called a fascist…by someone with the intellectual capacity and critical thinking ability that “our” laura has displayed.

  179. #182 Chris
    November 4, 2011

    Well, that was random.

    Laura, you might actually try to read the comments with an open mind. One thing you should have learned is to actually read the study you posted, and learn that the dose makes the poison. The IVs for infants have much more volume than any vaccine, there is a difference in dosing.

    Oh, and Dr. Bob is only interested in telling folks what they want to hear about vaccine because it helps his book sales. Science Mom and Catherina know all about his shenanigans.

  180. #183 Laura Duchon
    November 4, 2011

    Both of your comments have showed me your extreme bias. You have not read the
    whole article.
    No where does he state vaccines are given IV- He talks about the total burden of
    aluminum in the # of vaccines given and questions the safety of this.

    Read the whole article…..

  181. #184 Liz Ditz
    November 4, 2011

    Can’t find a pox party near you? Helpful moms will mail infective material for you! Emily Willingham at the Biology Files will tell you who these helpful moms are:

    http://biologyfiles.fieldofscience.com/2011/11/antivax-women-who-mail-pox-who-are-they.html

  182. #185 lilady
    November 4, 2011

    @ laura: Yes I am extremely biased toward science-based research and I read the full article that you linked to.

    Sears article extrapolates (misinterprets) the research about aluminum in IV solution and its effect on certain humans, to incorporate it into his bogus theory of aluminum toxicity caused by vaccines. He plainly states he doesn’t know how much of the aluminum adjuvant in vaccines gets into the bloodstream… and the table he provided about the amounts in vaccines is completely wrong, wrong, wrong.

    And, laura you did not read the article I referred you to, that explains the metabolism of the aluminum adjuvants in vaccines and provides the actual amount of aluminum in each vaccine.

    laura, I thought you said bye-bye after you called me a fascist…uh uh “forgetting” is an ominous sign for your condition.

    Good night laura.

  183. #186 Narad
    November 4, 2011

    Chris and lilady are both fascists. Bye Bye

    This, I take it, is the sense of “bye bye” that means “I’ll be back in a few minutes.” (Underappreciated trivia: “Les CBeurs disaient souvent cela avant de quitter les ondes, ça signifiait simplement ‘au revoir’. Souvent, ils disaient ‘à poup-poup chowwwww’ en montant l’echo de leur mike-modulateur dans le fond et se pensaient plus spécial que les autres!!!”)

    Remember, if you can’t leave in a huff, you can always leave in a minute and a huff.

  184. #187 Chris
    November 4, 2011

    Sorry, Ms. Duchon, I do not believe Dr. Bob is a valid source of information on vaccines. I’ve seen all those sources he discusses, and they are not on vaccines. The scaremongering on “total burden” is pointless when you get more from eating, breathing and even skinning your knee on the sidewalk.

  185. #188 Rene Najera
    November 4, 2011

    Pop quiz, Laura. Which has more aluminum:

    A) All the vaccines you’ll ever have in your life, ever. (Well, a normal, rational person who cares about the public’s health, anyway.)

    B) A roll of TUMS (for your bellyaching).

    C) A gallon of water from any lake in the United States

    D) A nice filet of salmon from a farm in the Northwest

    (Hint: It’s not “A”.)

    Seriously, Laura, do you know what an ad hominem is? Because I believe that no one here has called you anything even remotely similar to “fascist”. (Do you even know what fascism is? Because I can have my Grand Uncle give you a primer *cough* he saw the horrors of Mussolini in Italy during WWII *cough*.)

    I’ve re-read this whole thread, and no one has called you anything other than your name. So it appears that you can’t have a civil discussion, and people are treating you thus.

    @LilLady I, too, hope to someday take off the bio suit, but antivaxers spreading chickenpox and measles by mail are not making it easy.

  186. #189 Science Mom
    November 4, 2011

    @ Laura, Dr. Bob has never conducted a second of research and I have debated him many times about his completely false assertions. He came out looking very foolish every time, save for his adoring, dim-witted acolytes. He cherry-picks data, uses abstracts instead of full text studies and doesn’t know the first thing about pharmacokinetics, aluminium species, doses and routes of administration.

    And you pit this man as an expert against, you know, actual experts? Just goes to show you would rather follow a silly celebritrician because he tells you what you want to hear instead of what is true.

  187. #190 Chris
    November 4, 2011

    On my kitchen counter is about three quarters of a pound of alum. I bought it at an art store to mordant some fabric before I dyed it with onions. To mordant the fabric you have to boil it in water with alum for about 20 minutes. I am sure some of the alum went into the air from the steam.

    I am sure Ms. Duchon thinks this is a horrible thing to do. We did this because my daughter had read about it in a book, and she wanted to try it. We found the method from the first issue of a magazine in its archive DVD.

    Alum has been used for dying since ancient times. It has also been used in pickles, styptic pencils, any many other products for centuries. Ms. Duchon, you have probably consumed and absorbed more alum in one year than is in any vaccine. Your fear of alum is irrational.

    (by the way, it two days to rid the kitchen of the onion smell, most of the smell was from the stove vent filter, and one large plastic container still reeks from onion)

  188. #191 lilady
    November 4, 2011

    @ Narad: Is this what your French means?:

    “The CBeurs often said that before leaving the airwaves, it simply meant ‘goodbye’. Often, they said ‘to doll-doll chowwwww’ in the amount of echo mike-modulator in the background and is more special than thought other !!!”)

    (Google Translate)

    @ Rene: I’m reminded of the mailing of anthrax spores, the many telephone calls from contacts of contacts of contacts…and the selling of Cipro on the internet, during that scary time.

  189. #193 Composer99
    November 4, 2011

    Laura:

    People calling you out for spouting nonsense and supporting it with garbage is not fascism.

    This is what you get with fascism.

    If you are going to start characterizing as fascists people who are engaged in nothing more than demonstrating, with more or less asperity, the falseness of several of your claims, then you need to get a clue.

  190. #194 Chris
    November 4, 2011

    On this very thread I found out I had made an error. I was corrected, accepted it, and even said “thank you.” That is what it means to have an open mind.

  191. #195 Denice Walter
    November 4, 2011

    @ Composer 99:

    Whenever I encounter anti-SBM talking points ( …ummmmm.. perhaps I should say “shrieking points”) and subsequent insults I usually get that, “Oh, I’ve heard *that* before”- feeling and I know exactly where to go to check out my suspicions: epithets like “fascist” and “n-zi” are tossed about as frequently as are the spurious mercury-autism link, brain inflammation memes, and Pharma conspiracies. It’s sometimes so obvious who our trolls are reading that I can easily trace out “where they’ve been recently”- and it’s an extremely *limited* set ( double entendre) of “information” providers. You know the list.

  192. #196 Laura Duchon
    November 4, 2011

    @Chris- If only you and lilady had more compassion for vaccine injured children and the
    concern of parents who aren’t so sure about the genetics, auto-immune issues that their
    children might have with the current vaccine schedule I wouldn’t be calling you fascists
    which can also mean authoritarian….parents should have the choice
    to do what they think best for their children without being bullied- BTW lilady called me
    worse names a few months ago.

  193. #197 Chris
    November 4, 2011

    Excuse me, Ms. Duchon? First, when have I ever spoke poorly about disabled children? And what evidence do you have that they are “vaccine injured”?

    My son was had seizures due to a now vaccine preventable disease, and he is disabled. Yet you show no compassion towards me. You choose to only call me names, and totally ignore the points I make correcting your errors.

    If you want to talk about choice, my son had no choice every single time he was admitted to the hospital. I had no choice but to make sure that the children he was around as a baby were vaccinated because he only had the DT vaccine due to a history of seizures, and our county was having a pertussis outbreak.

    Now, please stop being irrational. Come up with some real references, and open your mind to new factual information.

  194. #198 Laura Duchon
    November 4, 2011

    @Chris-
    I am terribly sorry about your son. Yes SBM has made great strides.
    My aunt lost two children due to rh incompatible blood types-she was rh- they were
    called “blue babies” My other aunt had a brain damaged child due to lack of oxygen
    at birth. Two cousins have autistic children-still searching for the reason. I was
    lucky I guess, my son is fine born in ’68.
    I would not advise anyone to not get vaccinated-my grandchildren are.

  195. #199 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    November 4, 2011

    Well, I can only plead that I’ve read the “immediate high amputation for plutonium poisoning” thing dozens of times over the years, but that was in the primitive dead-tree era. If the innertubes say it’s an urban legend, who am I to question it? So I stand corrected.

    My point remains, however—with competition like plutonium, arsenic, and thallium, there’s no way mercury is in third place, toxicity-wise. Then of course, there’s the whole matter of chemical form…here’s a question for the bullshit artists: We call ourselves “carbon-based” life. but the real elemental bottleneck for our kind of life is phosphorous (the possibility of arsenic-based life seems to have been debunked). Sugars and phosphates form the backbone of DNA; we can’t exist without it. So how much elemental phosphorous can you eat without, you know…dying? Is it more than the amount of metallic mercury you could eat? Seriously, I’d like to know.

  196. #200 lilady
    November 5, 2011

    @ laura: I really don’t expect an apology from you, but your lame excuses and your definition of the word “fascist” are truly an abomination.

    I have great compassion for all disabled children and adults, especially for the hapless disabled kids whose parents put them through painful dangerous procedures, multiple blood draws to test for esoteric disorders and think of their children as damaged goods.

    I truly despise these parents who scare off new parents with their “vaccine-injured” theories, their big government conspiracies and their choice of “heroes”

    They need to stop their vicious personal attacks on anyone who does not believe in their bogus theories, stop their whining, support scientific research about the real causes of their child’s autism, come back to reality and provide the care and love that their children deserve.

    Don’t you ever presume to accuse me of not having compassion for disabled kids and adults.

  197. #201 David N. Brown
    November 5, 2011

    @168:
    “Although most fire marshals I deposed couldn’t define kindling temperature, Sid brought Fire Science to new lows. Homeopathy? He must have slept through his general chem requirement while studying Fire Science.”

    Let’s see… Homeopathic remedies are water, water puts out fire. So, “fire science” seems like a far more reasonable application than medicine.

  198. #202 Chris
    November 5, 2011

    Ms. Duchon:

    I would not advise anyone to not get vaccinated-my grandchildren are.

    Then please tell us why you post comments like:

    If only you and lilady had more compassion for vaccine injured children

    I asked you to tell us what evidence you had that they were “vaccine injured.” Please post the journal, title, date and authors of the papers telling us all about how there are more children injured by vaccines than by the real diseases. Having a child injured by an actual disease, this is of great interest to me. Thank you in advance.

  199. #203 Narad
    November 5, 2011

    If only you and lilady had more compassion for vaccine injured children and the concern of parents who aren’t so sure about the genetics, auto-immune issues that their children might have with the current vaccine schedule I wouldn’t be calling you fascists which can also mean authoritarian….

    I rather doubt the latter bit, but go ahead: what test do you propose in order to rule out these “issues”?

    parents should have the choice to do what they think best for their children without being bullied

    Define “bullied.”

  200. #204 Chris
    November 5, 2011

    Hmmm, “bullied.” Well, let me see:

    I’ve actually been told by those who blame vaccines that due to my son’s issues with seizures and a genetic heart condition that it is okay that he be injured or killed by a vaccine preventable disease. They call it “natural selection.”

    And I have also been called dangerous because I insist on real evidence that vaccines cause more harm than the diseases instead of anecdotes.

    And on a listserv I used to be on for my son’s disability someone tried to have me kicked off because I had to audacity to write a message that the MMR vaccine has never contained thimerosal.

    Or does that not qualify for being “bullied”, Laura? Should I just ignore the falsehoods being perpetuated because you don’t like my attitude? The attitude of a mother who had to protect her medically fragile baby from a disease that was circulating in my county due to the fearmongering by Barbara Loe Fisher and friends.

    By the way, I have a comment in moderation. In it I explained about what is leftover from a pound of alum sitting on my kitchen counter. I also noted that alum has been used various things since ancient time, and there really should be no irrational fear about. I used it as a dye mordant, and it has been used in food, water clarification and other things for centuries.

  201. #205 T-reg
    November 5, 2011

    @Laura: The information that Dr. sears starts with is regarding the toxic dose of aluminum for those individuals with impaired kidney function or immature kidneys. Then he makes a generalization saying that thus aluminum at that dose is toxic to everyone. No mention of kidney function after that.

    Again, the toxic dose that is mentioned is not about a single administration. Rather, it is about serial administration over several days. A vaccine is not administered over consecutive days. It is administered at intervals ranging in weeks to months. That interval maybe enough for the body to clear the aluminum from the system. He makes no mention of any observations contrary to this.

    Again, the studies he quotes speaks of IV administration where the aluminum directly enters the blood. Parenteral vaccines are administered subcutaneously, intra dermal and Intra muscular. From here the vaccine constituents are slowly absorbed into the blood stream. He makes no mention of the rate at which this happens. The rate of absorption maybe too slow to cause toxic accumulation of aluminum.

    Again, the toxic dose he mentions is in terms of mcg/Kg body weight. He then takes the birth weight of the infant and calculates the toxic dose (which has to be administered over several days, IV) disregarding the fact that the weight of the baby increases as he/she grows and as such the absolute toxic dose also increases i.e. the threshold for toxicity should also increase. This is important considering that the child receives vaccine doses at intervals ranging from weeks to months during which the weight increases significantly (the weight usually doubles by 5 months in the subcontinent with its poorer standards of hygiene and nutrition).

    There are too many holes in Dr. Sears’ reasoning about aluminum toxicity through vaccination. He also does not cite any definite and properly conducted study on vaccination in support of his claims.

  202. #206 T-reg
    November 5, 2011

    @Laura:

    The flaws in Dr. Sears arguments are:
    1. He provides toxicity data based on individuals with renal impairment or immature kidneys and then makes a generalization and applies it to everyone.

    2. The data talks about cummulative toxicity but for the most part he mentions the toxic dose as if it causes toxicity in a single dose.

    3. The study was based on daily infusions of solutions containing aluminum. Vaccine administration, on the other hand is not on a daily basis. The dosing intervals are in the range of weeks to months. This may provide adequate time for the aluminum to be cleared from the system or atleast the levels to reduce enough to not have a cummulative effect with the next dose. He provides no evidence that this does not happen.

    4. The route of administration in the study cited was IV. Parenterally administered vaccines are administered Sub Cutaneous / Intra Dermal / Intra Muscular. The vaccine constituents do not directly enter the blood stream. They are slowly absorbed from the site. He does not mention how the rate of absorption correlates with the toxicity levels.

    5. The toxic dose he mentions is in terms of mcg/Kg body weight. He only correlates this with the toxic dose in a newborn. Considering that babies grow over time and this growth is significant considering the dosing intervals in vaccination, the absolute toxic dose also varies significantly in the time frame that we are talking about.

    6. He does not cite any concrete study which directly correlates with the alleged toxicity with vaccine administration.

  203. #207 T-reg
    November 5, 2011

    @chris: excellent article at science-based-medicine-dot-org. Thank you for the link.

  204. #208 lilady
    November 5, 2011

    “Our” laura is a shill for the NVIC. From the NVIC Facebook:

    “Laura Duchon Too many vaccinations in too short a time will overwhelm many children- the facts speak for themselves! The first 2 years of life are critical for brain development-see this video http://t.co/iM1hChL

    June 5 at 6:31pm”

    (The video is Part 1 of 14-Dr. Blaylock and the vaccine-autism link)

  205. #209 T-reg
    November 5, 2011

    Sorry for the multiple posts, was having connection issues.

  206. #210 David N. Brown
    November 5, 2011

    @204:
    “I’ve actually been told by those who blame vaccines that due to my son’s issues with seizures and a genetic heart condition that it is okay that he be injured or killed by a vaccine preventable disease. They call it “natural selection.””

    That strikes me as a scientifically informed and intellectually honest argument. More than can be said for the usual shrieks of “icky in vaccines!”, “too many too soon!!”, “metal in most common minerals on earth (including mud) is deadly toxin”, etc, etc, etc.

  207. #211 herr doktor bimler
    November 5, 2011

    So how much elemental phosphorous can you eat without, you know…dying? Is it more than the amount of metallic mercury you could eat?

    You should certainly worry about organic mercury compounds, which obviously goes to show that carbon is the most lethal element of all. What are cyanide and tetrodotoxin, if not carbon with some other elements?

    In terms of *elemental* poisons, mercury is`worth avoiding — with inhaling the vapour being worse than swallowing it — but it hardly begins to compare with polonium or phosphorous or umpteen others.

  208. #212 Chris
    November 5, 2011

    David N. Brown:

    That strikes me as a scientifically informed and intellectually honest argument.

    Well, not really. It is endorsing eugenics, which is not a good thing. Plus it is often after the argument that children are more affected by vaccines, and the diseases are not dangerous.

    To which I often ask, why would a child who is affected by vaccines fare any better with the real disease?

  209. #213 lilady
    November 5, 2011

    “To which I often ask, why would a child who is affected by vaccines fare any better with the real disease?”

    But Chris…There are tens/hundreds of thousands of kids with autism who are vaccine damaged…according to “laura”. See the link that she provides to Dr. Blaylock from her posting on the NVIC Facebook page.

    I really think she is in the throes of some sort of dementia, as she repeatedly and blatantly links to pseudoscience websites. Even when the fallacy of her arguments are pointed out to her, she returns to the same links, re-argues them…and then resorts to name calling.

    Does she still claim to not be anti-vaccination…after the many months of posting her inanities here?

  210. #214 Antaeus Feldspar
    November 5, 2011
    That strikes me as a scientifically informed and intellectually honest argument.

    Well, not really. It is endorsing eugenics, which is not a good thing. Plus it is often after the argument that children are more affected by vaccines, and the diseases are not dangerous.

    I think what David was trying to say was that there are two different realms where an argument can be deficient: the realm of facts and logic, or the realm of civilized values. (Many arguments by anti-vaxxers are deficient in both realms at once, of course.) “I should kill that funny-looking guy because he’s probably a warlock whose evil eye is hexing us all” is an argument deficient in facts and logic; “I should kill that funny-looking guy because I could probably get away with it and then anything good he’s carrying will belong to me” is ostensibly sound as far as facts and logic, but of course it’s utterly depraved as far as values.

    The “natural selection” argument, while it’s abhorrent and selfish in terms of values, is at least not as blatantly deficient in facts and logic as, for example, all “thimerosal in the MMR vaccine” arguments. As Chris correctly points out, the argument is basically eugenics, and there’s a strong argument to be made that eugenic arguments have themelves been proven deficient in logic – but the arguments we hear from anti-vaxxers are so uniformly wretched that even being subtly rather than blatantly deficient in facts and logic is enough to distinguish an anti-vax argument from the crowd.

  211. #215 laura
    November 5, 2011

    @T-reg
    This is what Dr. Sears is concerned about…
    “As a medical doctor, my first instinct is to worry that these aluminum levels far exceed what may be safe for young babies. But then my second instinct is to assume that this issue has been researched and that studies have been done on healthy infants to determine their ability to excrete aluminum rapidly. My third instinct is to go looking for these studies, and so far I have not been able to find any. It is likely that the FDA feels the kidneys of healthy infants work well enough to excrete this aluminum rapidly before it can circulate through the body, accumulate in the brain, and cause toxic effects. However, I can’t find any references in the FDA documents that show that using aluminum in vaccines has been tested in human infants and found to be safe. “

  212. #216 laura
    November 5, 2011

    @T-reg
    He further states-
    “But that is the main point of this entire section. No one has ever measured the levels of aluminum absorption into the bloodstream, then excretion into the urine and out of the body, when it is injected into the skin and muscle of human infants. All the FDA and AAP documents say is it may be a problem, but we haven’t studied it yet, so we should limit aluminum in injectible solutions. But no one is talking about the levels in vaccines.”

  213. #217 alison
    November 5, 2011

    Laura, you don’t seem to have grasped the points made by T-reg. Particularly his point that vaccines are intramuscular & are absorbed s-l-o-w-l-y into the bloodstream, which would place less of a challenge on the kidneys’ ability to clear Al from the bloodstream. (Which they do rather effectively: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.119.9558&rep=rep1&type=pdf)

  214. #218 laura
    November 5, 2011

    @Alison-link is not working.

  215. #219 herr doktor bimler
    November 5, 2011

    The problem is the right-parenthesis which has adhered to the URL.
    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.119.9558&rep=rep1&type=pdf

  216. #220 laura
    November 5, 2011

    @herr doktor- Thank you

  217. #221 T-reg
    November 6, 2011

    @Laura: My comment was on a theoretical basis to counter the theoretical basis on which Dr. Sears voices his concerns (and to some extent misrepresents the study).

    However, the link posted by Chris @#177 has a section explaining a study on Aluminum metabolism and how Dr. Sears’ concerns and fear-mongering are unfounded. While Dr. Sears talks on a general theoretical basis without any sound facts specific to Aluminum metabolism (I cast a doubt his claims on similar grounds) this refutation has some sound and verified facts regarding Aluminum metabolism and excretion.

    The point I was trying to make is that there are several loop holes and unknowns in his line of reasoning. While the same can be said about unknowns in my line of reasoning, I have not gone ahead and published a book posing as an authority on vaccination and making baseless claims to the general public. This last part is what is to be condemned, in my view.

  218. #222 T-reg
    November 6, 2011

    @Alison: A very informative link. Thank you very much.

  219. #223 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    November 6, 2011

    Since aluminum is only the third most common element on Earth, you better work on eliminating all exposure to silicon and oxygen first.

  220. #224 Laura
    November 6, 2011

    @T-reg
    Read Sec 10 page 24 again.

  221. #225 Science Mom
    November 6, 2011

    @ Laura, there are copious data regarding aluminium but Dr. Sears ignored the most relevant ones in favour of cherry-picked studies to support his “gut science” aka “intuition. Children do not receive toxic levels of aluminium via vaccines by any stretch.

    Dr. Bob Sears isn’t a researcher why do you use him as an authority?

  222. #226 laura
    November 6, 2011

    T-reg-
    Condemned? Really? The concerns are not baseless- there might be a problem with the total body burden of aluminum.
    Safety has not been proven.

  223. #227 Laura
    November 6, 2011

    @Science Mom- Please rest my fears and direct me to the studies.

  224. #228 Antaeus Feldspar
    November 6, 2011

    Laura – so basically, you want mainstream medicine to prove a negative – that there is no possible danger from the aluminum in vaccines. And you want this to take place:

    A) before anyone, including Dr. Sears, has produced anything in the way of positive evidence supporting the existence of such a danger (certainly not anything that is specific enough to make the speculation falsifiable and thus scientific)

    B) after learning that the total “body burden” of all the aluminum contained in all the vaccines a person might reasonably receive in their life is less than the aluminum in a roll of TUMS, TUMS being something you have failed to start a crusade against or accuse people of being “fascists” for supporting the use of.

    Are you able to see just some of the problems with that stance??

  225. #229 T-reg
    November 6, 2011

    @Laura:

    What you cite merely speculates from the previous data regarding the body burden of Aluminum.

    Read the link posted by chris @#177 and see the graph which shows the results of a study done on the body burden of Aluminum from vaccination. No speculation here. Actual study data.

  226. #230 T-reg
    November 6, 2011

    @Laura:

    And yes, I do condemn the act of spreading misinformation especially when it is a physician spreading misinformation and fear-mongering about vaccines and especially when he has no concrete proof regarding his claims and there are several fallacies and loop holes in the reasoning on which he bases his claims.

  227. #231 T-reg
    November 6, 2011

    @Laura:

    The concerns are not baseless- there might be a problem with the total body burden of aluminum.

    If you read my comment carefully you would see that I was specifically attacking his reasoning and thus showing how it is baseless.

  228. #232 Laura
    November 6, 2011

    T-reg-
    I was referring to Alison’s link-
    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.119.9558&rep=rep1&type=pdf
    Sec 10 pg 24

  229. #233 Chris
    November 6, 2011

    I have a comment in moderation (absolutely no links and not long). I noticed that they say the first year of aluminum via vaccines is ten times less than the daily limit. This does not seem to be a problem.

    Could you copy the part that you find particularly worrisome so that we know what you are talking about?

  230. #234 T-reg
    November 6, 2011

    @Laura:

    Yes, I know you were referring to alison’s link. I read it and to which i said

    What you cite merely speculates from the previous data regarding the body burden of Aluminum.

    Read the link posted by chris @#177 and see the graph which shows the results of a study done on the body burden of Aluminum from vaccination. No speculation here. Actual study data.

  231. #235 T-reg
    November 6, 2011

    @Laura:

    Maybe I should have rephrased it as “What you cite presents a study and then at the end speculates on the presented data that implications maybe that vaccination may increase the body burden of aluminum.”

    Contrary to this speculation is the actual study done on the body burden of aluminum through vaccination which you can read about at http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/cashing-in-on-fear-the-danger-of-dr-sears/ as cited by chris @#177.

    Check the graph somewhere in the middle (and the text preceding and succeeding it).

    This is perhaps the 4th time I’m referring you to the link.

  232. #236 Laura
    November 6, 2011
  233. #237 Chris
    November 6, 2011

    Actually, looking back at that graph, it pretty much says the same thing the page Laura keeps referring to says.

  234. #238 ArtK
    November 6, 2011

    @Laura

    Chris and lilady are both fascists.

    If there’s one thing that bugs me more than anti-vaxers, it’s people throwing out words like “fascist” as some kind of trump card in an argument. As if accusing those who disagree with you of being “fascists” somehow defeats their arguments. It’s barely an improvement over the 5yo calling someone a “doo-doo head” in an argument. In fact, it’s worse, because adults should understand why it’s a worthless debating technique. It really means “you’re something bad so I don’t have to listen to you.”

    It’s really not very surprising that Laura is as historically and politically ignorant as she is scientifically ignorant. The inability to put the term “fascist” into its proper context (and therefore understand its meaning) is the same as being unable to put the amount of aluminum adjuvants in vaccines in their proper context (i.e. far less than the proverbial roll of Tums.) It’s the same inability to put the risk of vaccine injury in context with the risk of vaccine-preventable diseases. Sad, really.

    Laura, as someone whose family suffered at the hands of real fascists, I’m tremendously offended by your use of the word in such a casual, unthought and childish way. My father left his childhood home in 1939 and never saw his father again, thanks to real fascists. His mother and sister hid from real fascists throughout the war. I have an acquaintance with a number tattooed on his arm by real fascists. Chris and lilady refuting your pathetically weak arguments aren’t anything like real fascists.

    Grow up and learn to think.

    As far as your disingenuous claim that you’re not “anti-vax,” try the duck test: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and leaves duck-shit all over the place, it’s a duck. You walk, talk and leave droppings like an anti-vaxer. Be brave, own up to what you are — I’ll have a modicum more of respect for you if you do.

  235. #239 Laura
    November 6, 2011

    @ArtK-
    Apologies to all- You are correct-it was in the heat of anger….
    but I am not suffering from dementia, delusions as lilady suggested.
    I made an honest inquiry into some unknown facts.
    I defended parents’ rights to make an informed decision. As stated before, my
    grandchildren are vaccinated, one had a vaccine reaction though thankfully fully
    recovered. After her reaction several months ago, I started to question. Also a grandchild of my cousin has autism-reason unknown. Another cousin also has an
    autistic child.

  236. #240 Renate
    November 6, 2011

    An informed decision? Funny if you spread false information, as been shown to you several times. If something bad is discovered after vaccination, this doesn’t mean the two are linked.

  237. #241 Science Mom
    November 6, 2011

    @Science Mom- Please rest my fears and direct me to the studies.

    I see that you have been given some materials to read. Now, are you going to follow the evidence created by actual experts or continue to parrot “gut science” ala celebritrician Dr. Bob?

  238. #242 Laura
    November 6, 2011

    Found the expert in the field- Dr. Offit

    http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/hot-topics/aluminum.html

    Read and noted the section on Pregnancy

  239. #243 Narad
    November 6, 2011

    Found the expert in the field- Dr. Offit

    Yes, you’ve posted that twice. What do you infer from it?

  240. #244 Laura
    November 6, 2011

    Nothing to infer-just the facts as stated-

    “Aluminum is considered to be an essential metal with quantities fluctuating naturally during normal cellular activity. It is found in all tissues and is also believed to play an important role in the development of a healthy fetus. This is supported by several findings:

  241. #245 Science Mom
    November 6, 2011

    Aluminum is considered to be an essential metal with quantities fluctuating naturally during normal cellular activity.

    Aluminium levels do fluctuate but there is no known requirement for aluminium. So there is no evidence to support that statement.

  242. #246 Chris
    November 6, 2011

    Science Mom:

    So there is no evidence to support that statement.

    Dr. Offit apparently references this paper for that claim. I have only glanced at it, and it is better to download the pdf, and not try to read it from either FireFox or Windows Internet Explorer.

  243. #247 Science Mom
    November 6, 2011

    @ Chris, I can’t fathom where he derived that statement from (there is nothing in that review stipulating Al to be an essential metal that I can see), ubiquitous yes, but no known requirement for Al.

  244. #248 Chris
    November 6, 2011

    I’m not sure either. But if it is a such a ubiquitous element, I guess that cells have figured out ways to deal with it. Though it is a bit telling that the review article is over twenty years old, and I wonder if there has been any more research.

    Still, it does remain that aluminum adjuvants in vaccines are not really hazardous.

  245. #249 Luna_the_cat
    November 7, 2011

    @Laura —
    …a grandchild of my cousin has autism-reason unknown. Another cousin also has an
    autistic child.

    Funny how autism seems to run in families. Almost like it might be genetic or something.

  246. #250 Laura
    November 7, 2011

    @Luna-
    I have 20 first cousins, I’ve lost count on 2nd cousins and their children.
    Where is the research so badly needed? Not funny how it runs in families.
    Luckily there are only 2.

  247. #251 Chris
    November 7, 2011

    Did you click on the link in Luna’s comment?

  248. #252 Laura
    November 7, 2011

    “Evidence from many studies suggests that inherited factors are largely
    responsible for the occurrence of autism related disorders. However, it is
    equally clear that genetics cannot fully account for the development of autism.”

    http://www.exploringautism.org/environment/index.htm

  249. #253 Calli Arcale
    November 7, 2011

    ArtK:

    The inability to put the term “fascist” into its proper context (and therefore understand its meaning) is the same as being unable to put the amount of aluminum adjuvants in vaccines in their proper context (i.e. far less than the proverbial roll of Tums.)

    Well, I should hope so, seeing as how Tums are basically calcium carbonate, sugar, and flavoring. ;-P (They could possibly have other trace minerals; they’re made as a byproduct of the marble industry, marble being principally calcium carbonate.) You may be thinking of Maalox or other liquid antacids which contain aluminum hydroxide.

  250. #254 Calli Arcale
    November 7, 2011

    Just looked back at my comment and realized it made no sense. I should hope *not*, because Tums doesn’t contain aluminum at all. :-P (I need to go to bed now.)

  251. #255 Artk
    November 8, 2011

    Urgh. That’s what I get for repeating someone else’s “fact” without checking it myself. Me culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

  252. #256 Calli Arcale
    November 8, 2011

    Before I started on proton-pump inhibitors, I used to eat Tums like candy, so I read the label. Ah, GERD. Such a *lovely* thing.

  253. #257 Luna_the_cat
    November 8, 2011

    @Laura

    There may well be environmental factors, and in some cases we know that there are — for example, one possible complications of brain damage from measles is ASD.

    Which doesn’t take away from two things:

    1. The rise in ASD is the rise in diagnosis:
    http://www.exploringautism.org/news/label.htm (multiply confirmed in different studies in different areas by different teams)

    2. There is no link, statistically or epidemiologically, with vaccines: autism incidence doesn’t track with numbers of vaccines at all, when you actually look at details of vaccine schedules at different periods in different areas, no matter what you may hear to the contrary on anti-vaccine sites.

    The single exception to 2., is that (unsurprisingly) measles sequelae drop where vaccination rates are high, leading to fewer documented cases of ASD as a result of measles brain damage.

    One simple idea behind the genetics research is to try to identify what the genes which play into autism do — which will in turn point the way to what they may be vulnerable to in the environment if there ARE any environmental factors. That does not mean we can’t eliminate possible environmental vectors simply on the basis of “no physiological plausibility and NO statistical link whatsoever”, though!

  254. #258 Prometheus
    November 8, 2011

    Art,

    Maalox, Mylanta and other such “balanced” antacids contain aluminium hydroxide (200 to 500 mg per 5 mL “teaspoon”).

    While aluminium toxicity is widely recognised, it has primarily been seen in renal dialysis patients (who cannot excrete aluminium) and infants receiving parenteral (IV) nutrition. It is the latter group that has provided the best information about the toxicity of aluminium, showing that the amount contained in vaccines (even if it were immediately soluble) is well below the toxic level. This is especially true when you consider that the aluminium in vaccines is only slowly absorbed from the muscle or subcutaneous tissues.

    Prometheus

  255. #259 Roadstergal
    November 8, 2011

    Laura: “I am not anti-vax but really question the current schedule of vaccine administration and get called a troll when I want solid facts”

    After reading the comments that follow, I am reminded of the inimitable DNA:

    “What we demand is solid facts!”

    “No, we don’t! That is precisely what we don’t demand!”

    “We don’t demand solid facts! What we demand is the total absence of solid facts!”

    “…we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!”

  256. #260 lilady
    November 8, 2011

    @ Art K: “The inability to put the term “fascist” into its proper context (and therefore understand its meaning) is the same as being unable to put the amount of aluminum adjuvants in vaccines in their proper context (i.e. far less than the proverbial roll of Tums.) It’s the same inability to put the risk of vaccine injury in context with the risk of vaccine-preventable diseases. Sad, really.”

    Sadder still is the fact that laura has not apologized for her nasty “fascist” remark and other snide remarks directed at me recently, and in past discussions.

    She is anti-vax (the duck analogy) and her “fixations” on the few studies that she “throws out there” repeatedly, indicate that she is suffering from sort of dementia.

    Time for her to say “bye-bye”…and really mean it.

  257. #261 Laura
    November 8, 2011

    @lilady-see 242

    and Dr. Offit’s statement 245, 247, questions 248, 249, 250

    Au revoir!

  258. #262 lilady
    November 8, 2011

    laura: That’s not an apology…and you know it. See my posting directed at you on November 4th # 178…I referred you to Dr. Offit and to the CHOP article that you “discovered” two days later and have been fixating on.

    Au revoir!..back at you.

  259. #263 Chris
    November 8, 2011

    Laura, that article does not support your irrational fear of the most abundant metal element on this planet’s crust.

  260. #264 lilady
    November 8, 2011

    Forbes Magazine reports that the AAP weighed in on the NVIC paid video spot being run on Delta Airlines. A copy of the letter they sent to Delta’s CEO is on the Forbes website. According to Forbes, the AAP has not received a reply to the letter or to emails sent.

  261. #265 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    November 8, 2011

    Chris, you can point out that aluminum is the third most common element in the Earth’s crust till you’re blue in the face, it will never register with some people. Aluminum is unnatural, and was just invented recently—like radiation.

  262. #266 SkyMiles
    November 9, 2011

    Here’s the full response from Delta. Apparently their medical staff agrees with Orac et al., and they will change their approval process so things like this don’t happen again.

    I’m anonymizing the Delta employee who sent the response so she won’t get hate mail from anti-vaxxers.

    Dear [SkyMiles customer]:

    Thank you for contacting Delta Air Lines regarding the National Vaccine
    Information Center (NVIC) video. I appreciate the opportunity to
    address you concerns.

    We value customer feedback and appreciate you taking the time to contact
    us. Please allow me to share some background with you regarding the
    National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) video spot running on some
    Delta aircraft this month.

    Earlier this year, NVIC purchased video advertising space on some of our
    overhead in-flight entertainment systems. The three-minute segment,
    which ends its run on Delta flights during the month of November, is
    part of a show we call Lifestyle 365 and focuses on flu prevention.

    Since the ad began running, we have learned of e-mails, online petitions
    and other social media channels pushing for the removal of the spot
    claiming that it is an anti-vaccine advertisement that discourages
    people from receiving the influenza vaccine.

    Based on customer feedback, Delta felt it important to review the
    episode with our own Health Services Department to better understand
    perception of the video. After doing so, we can understand how some
    might feel that the video doesn’t support vaccination as the key
    preventative measure for influenza.

    Therefore, we have changed our internal review processes and procedures
    to help ensure that submitted content is vetted differently going
    forward. We recognize that while the views represented in Lifestyle 365
    do not necessarily match those of Delta, we have a responsibility to our
    customer to ensure all programming is relevant, accurate and does not
    lend itself to interpretation. Again, customer feedback is very
    important to us and we appreciate you taking the time to share your
    concerns.

    [SkyMiles customer], I want to thank you, again, for writing. We appreciate your
    interest in our company.

    Sincerely,

    [Delta employee]
    Coordinator, Corporate Customer Care
    Delta Air Lines

  263. #267 lilady
    November 9, 2011

    I received the same email last week and last evening at 7PM I received this email…obviously the joint efforts of our internet community has led to success!

    Dear (lilady)

    Thank you for contacting Delta. We value customer feedback and appreciate you taking the time to contact us. Please allow me to share some background with you regarding the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) video spot running on some Delta aircraft this month.

    Earlier this year, NVIC purchased video advertising space on some of our overhead in-flight entertainment systems. The three-minute segment, which ends its run on Delta flights during the month of November, is part of a show we call Lifestyle 365 and focuses on flu prevention.

    Since the ad began running, we have learned of e-mails, online petitions and other social media channels pushing for the removal of the spot claiming that it is an anti-vaccine advertisement that discourages people from receiving the influenza vaccine.

    Based on customer feedback, Delta felt it important to review the episode with the occupational health department to better understand perception of the video. After doing so, we acknowledge to you that the video doesn’t support vaccination as the key preventative measure for influenza.

    Therefore, we have changed our internal review processes and procedures to help ensure that submitted content is vetted differently going forward. We recognize that while the views represented in Lifestyle 365 do not necessarily match those of Delta, we have a responsibility to our customer to ensure all programming is relevant, accurate and does not lend itself to interpretation.

    Our December public service announcement topic is “Every Child By /Two (ECBT) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v+mx5bGepinjk&feature+youtu.be which encourages vaccinations at an early age.

    Again, customer feedback is very important to us and we appreciate you taking the time to share your concerns. Please let us know if you have any further questions and as always thank you for flying Delta.

    Very sincerely,

    (name omitted)
    General Manager, Occupational Health
    Delta Air Lines

    Note the particular sentences about specific to the NVIC, the new policy to vet all video ads and the placement of the “Every Child By Two” PSA aboard Delta flights.

    I replied to email, thanking them for their quick response and suggested they look to other government sites such as Immunize.org for additional PSAs that are educational about vaccine preventable diseases

  264. #268 lilady
    November 9, 2011

    @ SkyMiles: I have a comment stuck in moderation about the success of our campaign to inform Delta Airlines about the NVIC ad video, that will be replaced, starting in December with the “Every Child by Two” PSA video.

    We have had an impact on Delta, which will now be vetted by their medical staff, every ad submitted for the accuracy of medical advice and the possible promoting of an anti-vax agenda.

  265. #269 Luna_the_cat
    November 9, 2011

    YAY! Now that IS a good outcome. :)

  266. #270 Narad
    November 9, 2011

    General Manager, Occupational Health

    That’s a win.

  267. #271 Ren, El Epidemiologo
    November 9, 2011

    Wait. Not only are they taking off that spot, but they’re posting one about every child by two?

    That’s almost like getting Glenn Beck off the air and replacing him with lectures on civility and honest discussion.

    Almost.

    *The preceding constitutes only my opinion and not necessarily that on my (now three) employers, their other employees, my friends, family, the dog, the three cats, or the two Guinea pigs.*

    *Oh, and the zebra. (Long story.)*

  268. #272 Narad
    November 9, 2011

    Not only are they taking off that spot, but they’re posting one about every child by two?

    Well, taking it off in the sense of letting it run until the end of the month. The buy was presumably with In-Flight Media Associates, so there are two tiers and the whole package is in the can.

  269. #273 lilady
    November 9, 2011

    “I replied to email, thanking them for their quick response and suggested they look to other government sites such as Immunize.org for additional PSAs that are educational about vaccine preventable diseases.”

    I received this email at 2 PM today:

    Dear Ms. lilady:

    I agree that the immunize.org site is an excellent resource. Thanks for this information.

    Best regards,

    (name omitted)
    General Manager, Occupational Health
    Delta Air Lines

    How much did that ad cost for a one month run? I only hope that Babs was in the process of arrangements to buy more ad space to run the video in other venues.

  270. #274 Narad
    November 9, 2011

    How much did that ad cost for a one month run?

    That’s an interesting question, as well as that of whether they actually bought only a month, and the whole PSA discount issue. Rate cards aren’t easy to find. For a 4Q 2008/Q1-Q3 2009 three-minute advertorial buy on Air Jamaica roundtrips, the rack rate was $45,000. Make of this what you will.

  271. #275 Narad
    November 9, 2011

    ^ That is, per quarter.

  272. #276 lilady
    November 9, 2011

    @ Narad: You made my day (evening)! I guess Babs will have less money now for new videos…or maybe she will decide that the costs of production and “air” time are prohibitive.

    Tsk, tsk…Babs has struck out twice now. She’s a publicity hound, but she didn’t want THIS kind of publicity.

    Where is Chris, our resident forensic accountant to look up the federal filings for the NVIC…to see how many $$$ they are blowing through for the Jumbotron and the Delta ads?

  273. #277 Gray Falcon
    November 10, 2011

    I’m wondering if Delta was aware of what NVIC stood for. Considering that a flu outbreak would put a serious crimp in air travel, probably not.

  274. #278 Narad
    November 10, 2011

    I should note that that Air Jamaica figure, coupled with their claimed traffic of 450,000 to 500,000 passengers per quarter in the tine frame, works out to a preposterously high CPM, so I wouldn’t try to extrapolate anything too particular from it. It may represent a rough floor for entry–for comparison, a national full-page full-color ad in the Spirit Airlines magazine is currently $41,454 for a single-issue run.

  275. #279 Roadstergal
    November 11, 2011

    What an unexpectedly timely, reasonable, and overall positive outcome! Good on Delta.

  276. #280 lilady
    November 11, 2011

    @ Roadstergal: Yes, good on Delta. The outcome has now been picked up by internet news sources. Babs has been quoted questioning why the innocent NVIC video evoked such a profound response from the SBM community. Babs made no comment about the “Every Child By Two” PSA video that will run in December…I wonder why? (tee-hee)

  277. #281 Narad
    November 13, 2011

    I think it’s kind of cute that Dachel’s AoA piece from November 11 attempts to suggest that the AAP letter is some sort of fake:

    LBRB also published a copy of a letter they say was written by someone from the American Academy of Pediatrics to Delta Airlines stating the AAP’s objections to NVIC’s educational video. In the letter, the “AAP” calls on Delta to remove the video…. Other websites and bloggers have also republished the LBRB article and “AAP” letter online.

  278. #282 lilady
    November 13, 2011

    @ Narad: While “slumming” once again, I caught that article questioning the veracity of the AAP letter. The “conclusion” drawn by their posters is that the AAP leadership and member doctors are all part of the “grand conspiracy”…sad.

  279. #283 lilady
    November 16, 2011

    Babs has been busy since this latest fiasco with the NVIC Delta Airlines ad. She has sent out a press release to the media slamming the AAP:

    National Vaccine Information Center Calls Out AAP For Using Public Intimidation to Censor NVIC Flu Prevention Video Offered to Delta Travelers

    I just love this one paragraph from the press release:

    NVIC co-founder and president Barbara Loe Fisher responded, “Without cause, the AAP has used their considerable financial resources and political influence to intimidate Delta for simply showing a video that offers accurate information about ways to stay healthy during the flu season, including talking with doctors about getting a flu shot. Censorship and attacks on consumer advocacy groups working to institute informed consent protections in public health policies should not be tolerated in this or any society that cherishes free speech and the right to self determination.”

    This sentiment brought tears to my eyes…while I was ROTFLMAO.

  280. #284 Narad
    November 16, 2011

    Babs has been busy since this latest fiasco with the NVIC Delta Airlines ad. She has sent out a press release to the media slamming the AAP

    Tish tosh. Laden poster “Dr. Spock” was already all over the Freedom(!) angle yesterday.

  281. #285 lilady
    November 16, 2011

    It’s a funny thing about airlines. In spite of their huge staff of flight personnel, mechanics and ground personnel in areas all over the world, their corporate staff such as human resources, department heads and legal staff all “know” each other…they are quite interconnected.

    I happen to have a “close” relative who worked as in-house counsel for a large international air carrier and they all “know” each other and they know their legal counterparts in the FAA, the DOT and Department of Justice, as well. Whenever a situation such as this arises with one airline, the circumstances and resolution of a situation, quickly is discussed in other airlines.

    Of course, Babs is not helping her cause by making it a “cause celebre” with her press release and her readiness to be quoted in popular media outlets.

  282. #286 lurker
    November 16, 2011

    Just to remind everybody what a vaccine reaction can look like-

    http://iansvoice.org/default.aspx

  283. #287 Narad
    November 16, 2011

    Just to remind everybody what a vaccine reaction can look like

    Like an easy settlement and 44 grand for the lawyer?

  284. #288 Lawrence
    November 16, 2011

    I’ll see your vaccine reaction & raise you with a 30% mortality rate for smallpox (which we don’t need to worry about anymore).

    http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/smallpox/en/

    Again, no one is saying that vaccine reactions don’t occur, they do – but autism isn’t one of them & it was BLF herself that helped set up the VAERS to compensate those that do have legitimate claims.

  285. #290 Todd W.
    November 16, 2011

    Just to remind everybody what a vaccine preventable disease can look like-

    http://shotbyshot.org/story-gallery/

  286. #291 Chris
    November 16, 2011

    Narad:

    Like an easy settlement and 44 grand for the lawyer?

    Do you mean like this and this?

    And notice how the website lurker posted has not been updated since before that, and he/she skips over that the child had spent time in the NICU. It is more of a case of the dangers of preeclampsia.

  287. #292 Th1Th2
    November 16, 2011

    It is more of a case of the dangers of preeclampsia.

    Damn it. Who paged Dr Quack?

  288. #293 lilady
    November 16, 2011

    Hello lurker: If the parents chose to blame the Hepatitis B vaccine, by posting the pictures of the baby on the website, they are wrong. The vaccine is not a live vaccine..it is a recombinant DNA vaccine and infection with the virus is impossible.

    Did you read the parent’s “diary” (Ian’s Life) on the website? Baby was in trouble before birth, after experiencing aspiration of meconium in utero. Baby was also treated for MAS (Meconium Aspiration Pneumonia) which is treated by antibiotics in the NICU and did not receive the vaccine until he was 7 days old.

    So, we have pictures of this infant who most probably had a severe case of Stevens-Johnson Syndrome from one of the antibiotics that he received or possibly an anti-convulsant that he received in the NICU. S-J Syndrome rarely can lead to septic shock and the resulting major organ failure and DIC (disseminated intravascular coagulation) that the infant experienced that resulted in his death.

    Perhaps the mother omitted the fact that Ian’s in utero distress and distress after birth was a result of exposure to maternal GBS (Group B Strep) infection which can lead to septicemia and the cascade of events that was reported in the diary and shown in the the pictures on their website.

    Get a life, lurker, real doctors and nurses have treated children and adults with septicemia and septic shock.

  289. #294 lurker
    November 16, 2011

    Why did they ever give him a Hep B shot with his history?
    They were ready to bring him home from the hospital- He was discharged from the NICU
    Read again–not selectivity, w/o bias

    Day 7 (July 1)
    Fact: An infant’s immune system is very weak at birth. The hepatitis B vaccine can cause serious reactions if the system is already compromised, as was Ian’s.

    Day 8 (July2)Fact: After receiving the hepatitis B shot these symptoms appeared within hours: platelet count dropped from 248,000 to 131,000, rash appeared, seizure-like posturing noted, irritable and non-stop crying, stopped eating, viral-like symptoms.

    You are showing real denial (psych definition)
    They vaccinated their other children.

  290. #295 lurker
    November 16, 2011

    @Todd W.
    Gardasil vaccine victims-
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB2ZvCWXSY0

  291. #296 Todd W.
    November 16, 2011

    Oooh! Citation by Youtube! Your science research skills are astounding. I’ll do you one better.

  292. #297 Narad
    November 16, 2011

    Hey, if Laura Keegan, FNP (“Lifeforce is the vital impulse of life”), can provide a video from Universal Mysteries that says as much, that takes care of that.

  293. #298 lurker
    November 16, 2011

    @Todd W-
    I already read that.
    Merck fast tracked Gardasil w/o adequate studies.
    Remember Vioxx?
    http://www.druginjurylaw.com/Vioxx-milestones.html

  294. #299 lilady
    November 16, 2011

    @ lurker: You must not have read the actual vaccine court’s ruling about the case…link supplied by Chris.

    The parents pursued the case in the vaccine court, because the court has a much lower burden of proof. The parents sought remuneration under the “table injury” that their lawyers claimed caused Ian’s illness and subsequent death.

    There are no “antibiotic courts” or “anti-convulsants” court. Recourse is sought in the regular courts, where all the circumstances surrounding his birth…mom’s induced labor for pre-eclampsia, meconium aspiration pneumonia and maternal infection status would all undergo scrutiny. All the hospital records of the many medications he was given would also be subject to “discovery”, as well as testimony and physician’s notes from all the specialists who cared for the infant, would be part of the regular court’s records. The burden of proof of injury/death is much higher in “regular court”.

    Too bad, you think that the “diary” is in fact, “fact”. The child died of septic shock, either from Stevens-Johnson Syndrome associated with medicine (antibiotics or anti-convulsants)to treat his infection…or from maternal infection in the days prior to delivery or at the time of delivery.

    Had the child survived the septic shock, the gangrenous left hand would have been amputated and he might have had other partial limb amputations as well.

  295. #300 Lawrence
    November 16, 2011

    @lurker – and your citations for that are, what exactly?

  296. #301 Chris
    November 16, 2011

    And having found that his “baby killed by vaccine” link leads to more questions with answers he/she cannot deflect, lurker does the most logical thing: change the subject to a painkiller.

  297. #302 Todd W.
    November 16, 2011

    @Chris

    When you can’t refute the argument, the next logical step is to bring up Vioxx, duh! I mean, what could be more damning of vaccines than a drug that works well for pain relief, though its side effects have to very, very carefully be weighed against the benefits, and the marketing for which was handled horribly, not to mention the idiocy of trying to doctor some of the research! So, effective, if risky, drug and botched PR work clearly equals VAKSEENZ BAD!

    lurker, try giving us some scientific evidence that Gardasil causes deaths, rather than emotional appeals from people who, mistakenly thinking that correlation equals causation, are looking for something to blame in an attempt to deal with their grief and loss.

  298. #303 herr doktor bimler
    November 16, 2011

    Lurker:
    Fact: An infant’s immune system is very weak at birth.
    Fact: When statements are in fact factual, people do not feel so insecure about stating them that they have to prop them up this way.

    You are showing real denial (psych definition)
    You are evidently under the impression that psychology defines “denial” as “disagreeing with me”. Is this another of your “Facts”?

  299. #304 lurker
    November 16, 2011

    Herr doktor B-
    re “Fact:”
    That should have had a quotation mark around it because I was quoting from their
    log of “Day 7.”
    This was a tragic incident of an infant who should not have been given a Hep B
    shot because of his condition.

    Read anything into that you like but first read the story.

  300. #305 Chris
    November 16, 2011

    lurker, that is your professional opinion upon reading all of the medical notes and with your education as a pathologist, right?

  301. #306 herr doktor bimler
    November 16, 2011

    re “Fact:”
    That should have had a quotation mark around it because I was quoting from their log of “Day 7.”

    Are you saying that if the bullshit you are spouting is quoted from someone else it somehow becomes more evidential?

  302. #307 lilady
    November 16, 2011

    I suspect that “lurker” gets all his YouTube “citations” from the NVIC…where his particular “YouTube Citation” is prominently featured.

    I nominate “Chris” for today’s Internet Award for her link to the actual Vaccine Court case decision. Are nominations still open for “YouTube citations awards”?

  303. #308 Narad
    November 16, 2011

    My previous comment wound up in the mod queue, but Keegan seems to be somewhat colorful. Her own site, dutytoinform-dot-org, is merely a redirect to a Facebook page.

    The clarity of my recognition of my duty to inform came to me recently as a result of years of wanting to speak freely about both the risks and benefits of vaccines without being labeled “anti-vaccine.”

    Let’s see, what’s among her “likes”? Oh, America’s darling band, The Refusers. Yah, wouldn’t want to be labeled or anything.

  304. #309 herr doktor bimler
    November 16, 2011

    first read the story
    If it is all as ill-informed as the extracts you have regaled us with, why on earth would I want to do that?

  305. #310 lilady
    November 16, 2011

    I also found Laura Keegan’s Facebook page…she is a major player on “Team Wakefield”.

    Perhaps “lurker” could supply us with the “YouTube Citation” video of Michele Bachmann speaking about a HPV vaccine victim who, after receiving the vaccine, “thereafter became mentally retarded”.

  306. #311 Chris
    November 16, 2011

    I’ve seen the now dormant diary website that lurker linked to about three times in the last month or so. No one seems to notice that the blog link is dead, that the newsletter has not been updated or that several of the links are dead.

    I have a feeling that the “unpublished” part of the US Court website means that none of the testimony is published, so the parents really don’t want all of the details online.

    lurker, the only way that the “should not have given the vaccine argument” will fly if there was also a malpractice lawsuit. Not against the vaccine manufacturers, but to the health care providers who seem to have done what you think they should not have done.

  307. #312 Prometheus
    November 16, 2011

    lurker (#306):

    “This was a tragic incident of an infant who should not have been given a Hep B shot because of his condition.”

    I’d love to hear why “lurker” feels that this infant’s “condition” precluded the hepatitis B vaccine. Is it because “an infant’s immune system is very weak at birth”?

    The term “weak” as used in this context may be misleading to some. A very young infant’s immune system is not “weak” in the sense of “fragile or easily damaged” but rather in the sense of “not very effective”. That’s why group B streptococcal sepsis is so serious in (otherwise healthy) newborns and why expectant mothers are tested for it (2006: incidence 0.7 per 1000 live births, case-fatality rate 4 – 6%).

    The “weakness” of a newborn’s immune system is why only one vaccine is routinely given at birth (hepatitis B) – not because the young baby’s immune system might be “overwhelmed” but because it generally won’t react sufficiently to generate a significant immune response.

    Hepatitis B is readily transmitted from mother to child at birth and since neonatal infection with hepatitis B leads to chronic hepatitis B infections in about 95% of cases, it makes sense to immunise newborns, even if mom tests negative for hepatitis B, because the test turns “positive” only after the peak of blood viral load has passed.

    Vaccinating – even for hepatitis B – is generally more effective later in life, but vaccinating at birth has been shown to significantly lower the risk of developing chronic hepatitis B (which can lead to cirrhosis or liver cancer) in children born to infected mothers. And since the currently avaiable tests can’t reliably pick up maternal infections until after the time of greatest maternal-to-child infection risk, it’s worked out to be safer to vaccinate all infants at birth.

    Still, I’m curious what “lurker” thinks the hepatitis B vaccine did to this poor infant. The hepatitis B vaccine is contains hepatitis B surface antigen proteins, produced by transgenic yeast. There is no active infectious agent, not even in the yeast cultures. Was it the memory of the virus that caused such a severe reaction – a sort of homeopathic potentisation reaction?

    Of course, my suspicion is that “lurker” hasn’t a clue and is simply repeating was he/she has been told by others. Time to get out of the parrot cage, “lurker”, and think for yourself!

    Prometheus

  308. #313 lurker
    November 16, 2011

    @Chris-

    Read CDC’s -who should not get the Hep B vaccine.

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/should-not-vacc.htm#hepb

  309. #314 Vicki
    November 16, 2011

    lurker–

    So, your point is that the parents shouldn’t have gone to the vaccine court, because there was nothing inherently wrong with the vaccine, but should have sued for malpractice?

  310. #315 lurker
    November 16, 2011

    @Vicki-
    My point is that if they had been educated about the risks of the vaccine and
    the truth about how Heb B was added to the schedule (non-compliance by the
    target population) they would never have allowed the Hep B to be given and their
    child might still be alive.

  311. #316 lilady
    November 16, 2011

    @ Vicki: “lurker” still has not provided REAL citations about the infants actual medical history, including the induced labor and the infection from meconium aspiration that he was treated for, with antibiotics.

    From the pictures on the website it appears he suffered DIC septic shock and major organ failure from bacteremia or from Stevens-Johnson Syndrome from the antibiotics or anti-convulsants he was given.

    “lurker” is obviously “showing real denial (psych definition)”

  312. #317 Narad
    November 16, 2011

    Hey, if Laura Keegan, FNP (“Lifeforce is the vital impulse of life”), can provide a video from Universal Mysteries

    I should note that I had the “as seen on” causal arrow reversed; Universal Mysteries picked up Keegan’s video.

  313. #318 Chris
    November 16, 2011

    lurker:

    My point is that if they had been educated about the risks of the vaccine

    Who is “they”, the parents or the medical personnel that were in charge of the baby’s medical care?

    So, lurker, are you the lawyer now gathering up all of the medical files for that malpractice suit?

  314. #319 lilady
    November 16, 2011

    @ Narad: She also has a “practice” in New York State. Here’s what she has to say about “conventional pharmacological care”:

    “Illness Care by Appointment

    I offer conventional pharmacological care when appropriate. However, more often than not, typical visits suggest holistic care that does not involve conventional medications. I primarily use homeopathy, but my approach is eclectic including therapeutic nutrition, herbal medicine, anthroposopical medicine and cranial sacral therapy. I consult with other practitioners and specialists when necessary or beneficial.”

    Has she missed any part of “eclectic care”?

  315. #320 lilady
    November 16, 2011

    @ Chris: He ain’t no lawyer…just an anti-vax troll.

  316. #321 Chris
    November 16, 2011

    It was sarcasm.

  317. #322 lilady
    November 16, 2011

    So was my post at #322.

  318. #323 Chris
    November 16, 2011

    Ooops.

    But he really does not understand the direction his whinging is going.

  319. #324 lurker
    November 18, 2011

    @302 lilady
    @303 Lawrence

    According to lilady the baby suffered from Stevens-Johnson Syndrome.
    Engerix- B– a possible adverse reaction is Stevens-Johnson Syndrome.
    See Insert For Engerix B

    http://www.drugs.com/ppa/hepatitis-b-vaccine.html

The site is currently under maintenance and will be back shortly. New comments have been disabled during this time, please check back soon.