After the lengthy post from yesterday, I must admit, I’m a bit tired; so I think it’s time to slum a bit for a day. No, that doesn’t mean I’m going to throw up a video and call it a day. That’s not how Orac rolls (well, usually, at least). I just need a bit of something that doesn’t take a lot of mental firepower to take on, unlike the discussion of “personalized gene-targeted cancer therapy” yesterday and why what Dr. Stanislaw Burzynski doesn’t qualify as anything other than a parody of “personalized” therapy. It didn’t take me long to find just the place to find what I was looking for.

Where else, but the anti-vaccine crank blog Age of Autism? It always provides.

I often discuss the pseudoscience, crankery, and, all too often, the downright idiocy of the anti-vaccine movement. Also not infrequently, I catch criticism from either anti-vaccine activists (which I expect), those not familiar with the anti-vaccine movement (which I expect as well), or even well-meaning skeptics who think that I paint anti-vaccine cranks with too broad a brush (which I don’t expect). When I encounter such criticism, what I like to do is to point out some of the criteria that I use to identify anti-vaccine cranks. It’s not a term I use loosely even though I use it commonly. Rather, it’s reserved for people who demonstrate a certain set of characteristics. Although I sometimes joke that, like the case of pornography, I know “anti-vaccine” when I see it, but there really are a number of characteristics that to me define “anti-vaccine.” Above all, no matter how much anti-vaccine activists try to paint themselves as being “not anti-vaccine but rather pro-safe vaccine,” it doesn’t take much pushing to demonstrate that they systematically downplay the effectiveness of vaccines, while grossly exaggerating or making up out of whole cloth side effects of vaccines. The most famous of these, the one that anti-vaccinationists have managed to drive into the zeitgeist of society, is notion that vaccines cause autism. Above all, to them, it’s all about the vaccines. It’s always about the vaccines. And, no matter what evidence is presented to them that vaccines are safe and do not cause autism, it always will be about the vaccines.

This is, of course, why a post on AoA by Cathy Jameson called No One Knows caught my attention. It’s a perfect distillation of one essential element of the mindset of an anti-vaccinationist, namely that she knows in the very center of her being that vaccines cause autism, no matter how much she is told otherwise:

If you read the mainstream news the message is still the same: No One knows why the dramatic rise in autism is happening. They should just ask Anne Dachel or some of my friends. We’d be able to fill them in. We’d cut to the chase and say exactly what we believe causes autism. But, No One wants to really listen to us and we continue to be ignored.

Note the difference between real scientists and Jameson. Scientists, for all their flaws, are humble about the data. They admit they don’t know what the cause of autism is. That’s why they’re working on it; they want to know. Of course, it’s not even clear that there really has been a major increase in the prevalence of autism and autism spectrum disorders (ASDs). Much of the apparent increase appears to be due to factors such as diagnostic substitution, and recent studies strongly suggest that the true prevalence of ASDs is considerably higher than previously thought, and researchers have increasingly identified brain abnormalities associated with autism. While it is possible that autism prevalence is increasing, it is quite clear that it is not doing so at a rate that can appropriately be referred to as an “epidemic.” Basically, the claim by anti-vaccine zealots that vaccines somehow caused an “autism epidemic” beginning in the 1990s is a classic case of confusing correlation with causation. The hypothesis most consistent with the data right now is that autism is likely due to complex genetic changes that can’t be boiled down to a single gene, possibly with environmental contributions.

But, no. To Jameson, it’s all about the vaccines. After mocking all the factors that have been associated with autism over the years (some of which, to be fair, deserve a bit of mockery), Jameson dismisses them all because they’re not vaccines. To her, vaccines, like Elvis, are everywhere:

One of the most overlooked yet common medical “interventions” many children have experienced has escaped being researched again–vaccines. Why is it so painfully difficult to ask someone to please just look at them? Vaccines are pushed everywhere. EVERYWHERE. You’d think someone in the research field would put two and two together and have an a-ha moment. It wasn’t so hard for many parents to have that moment. They didn’t celebrate it like when these official studies are lauded after being published–“A-ha! We found another reason! But, we really didn’t, so let’s go back to funding useless research!” Parents made a common connection to their child’s autism in those vaccines that No One will consider. It doesn’t make sense because vaccines are being pushed in school; vaccines are being advertised in the deli at the grocery store; vaccine propaganda is plastered all over the drug store; flu shots and vaccine injections are being talked about and aired on TV shows. Seriously. Vaccines are everywhere yet nowhere.

And Elvis needs boats, too.

I do like how she says vaccines are “everywhere yet nowhere.” I bet Jameson thought she had come up with a really clever line there; you can almost see her patting herself on the back. Hey, I understand. I sometimes do the same thing; I just try not to be as blatant about it. (Yes, I realize I probably fail sometimes, but as long as the results are entertaining, who really cares?) Too bad that the “everywhere but nowhere” thing is a cliche, a trope used only very sparingly by good writers and frequently used by bad writers in order to place a facade of clever-sounding verbiage over a sow’s ear of an argument. Also, Jameson’s too dead serious to be entertaining, except as an example of bad reasoning and lack of skepticism. To her, any study that doesn’t look at vaccines as a cause of autism is a “useless study” because she and her fellow parents just “know” that vaccines cause autism.

Again, to her it’s all about the vaccines. It’s always about the vaccines. And, no matter what evidence is presented to her that vaccines are safe and do not cause autism, it always will be about the vaccines.

If at this point you still don’t believe me. Then check out Jameson’s little fantasy sequence near the end of the post. In it, she envisions a group of scientists sitting around a table with a deck of cards sitting on it. They’re deciding which study to publicize next about autism, whether to link it to arsenic or some other environmental factor (other than vaccines, of course), snickering all along. Unfortunately for them, this happens:

Leader: “Settle down. Let’s take a moment. Alright (pulling a card from the middle of the pile), the next topic…childhood vaccines. Wait (angrily), how did this get back in the deck?”

Researcher 4: “Sorry, sir. One of the interns probably put it to the pile after the last meeting. She was a parent turned grad-student who kept pestering about her kids’ delays. I told her we weren’t allowed to open that study. She talked about autism and vaccines, special ed, gluten free, blah blah blah (rolling his eyes). She had to quit last week to take care of her sick kid.”

Leader: “Just throw this card out (tossing the vaccine card to the ground). Come now, time to be serious (reshuffling the cards).”

Researcher 1: “Can I pick the card this time?”

Leader: “Sure, make it a good one (fanning the deck out).”

Researcher 1: (Reaching for a card) “The next ‘What causes autism study’ is going…to…be…vaccines?! What just happened? (turning every card over; handwriting is on the cards). Each card is labeled vaccines!”

Leader: “We’ve been duped! Get the chief on the phone. NOW.”

Like the rest of this post, this little fantasy sequence reveals the magical thinking at the heart of anti-vaccinationism. To Jameson, scientists are out there plotting to keep The Truth from being discovered about vaccines because they can’t handle The Truth. To her, they’re so blinded by their love of vaccines that they’ll do anything to prevent studies on vaccines. The only groups for whom the deck of cards with potential causes of autism on each of them contains nothing but cards with the word “vaccines” on them are groups like the bloggers at AoA.

Jameson’s fantasy is all a load of nonsense, of course. In fact, scientists have studied vaccines for adverse events. Extensively. They’ve studied whether there is a link between vaccines and autism on numerous occasions. Even when they thought the hypothesis that vaccines cause autism was quite implausible (which it is, from a scientific standpoint), they nonetheless performed expensive and difficult epidemiological studies to try to determine whethether there is a correlation between vaccines and autism or thimerosal in vaccines and autism. They failed to find any, despite in essence bending over backwards to look. In fact, even though the evidence is overwhelming against this hypothesis, they still feel obligated to look every now and then, just to placate zealots like Jameson. They don’t like it, though, because they realize, based on the history of research that has gone before, that the odds they will find anything new and interesting about the cause of autism in these studies is slim and none. Unfortunately, what Jameson apparently doesn’t realize is that in science after there are enough negative studies eventually scientists start to lose interest in the hypothesis, which is what happened to the vaccine-autism hypothesis years ago. If there’s no evidence to support a hypothesis, eventually scientists give up and move on. After all, it makes no sense to keep studying the same question when so many studies have failed to yield any results implicating vaccines as a cause of autism or neurodevelopmental disorders.

We’re far beyond that point with the question of vaccines and autism.

Unfortunately, Jameson, like the rest of the crew at AoA and anti-vaccinationists everywhere won’t accept that and probably never will. Unlike scientists, they refuse to move on from a failed hypothesis. To Jamison and her fellow anti-vaccine zealots, it’s all about the vaccines. It’s always about the vaccines. And, no matter what evidence is presented to her that vaccines are safe and do not cause autism, it always will be about the vaccines.

Comments

  1. #1 Narad
    December 7, 2011

    How fortunate are those who don’t play.

    Don’t try to change the subject again. Put on your fez, clang your cymbals 200 times, and explain your previous romp through the Land of Free Association.

  2. #2 Sid Offit
    December 7, 2011

    Revise your estimate again for me, Kerbiozen, because a large number of those infections were in Americans of Southeast Asian decent. I’m not of SEA descent.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11694691
    Estimated annual rates of infection ranged from 24 per 100 000 in non-Asian children to 2580 per 100 000 in children of Southeast Asian immigrant mothers. These rates indicate that by the early 1990s, HBV was infecting 16 000 children who were younger than 10 years (8700 non-Asian children and 7300 Asian-American children) annually.

  3. #3 Th1Th2
    December 7, 2011

    Narad,

    How far into the schnapps are you? You brought up the quote from the Dryvax insert in the first place, apparently in some sort of confusion with the number cited for the antigenic content of the smallpox vaccine.

    Offit the Crook deliberately misled the people into thinking that the “200” antigens from his article were vaccinia viral antigens (a prelude to show that “Children are Exposed to Fewer Antigens in Vaccines Today Than in the Past”). They weren’t instead they were 200 bacterial organisms. Those were junks unless of course those bacteria have something to do with immunity to smallpox which is preposterous.

  4. #4 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 7, 2011

    You’re just practically telling us how to play the Russian roulette.
    How fortunate are those who don’t play.

    As we’ve previously discussed, you either take the risk with the real disease or with the vaccine. The vaccine has way more empty chambers than the real wild disease. And, as you’ve previously admitted, you have no idea whether you’re being exposed – so surprise, you’re playing the game right now.

  5. #5 Narad
    December 7, 2011

    I’m not of SEA descent.

    And this is apropos of what?

  6. #6 lilady
    December 7, 2011

    @ Krebiozen: There is no need to revise your estimations…see my post at # 193 above. Offal, our resident fire science/fire safety graduate from a 4th tier college troll…is just wrong…again.

    I feel it is my duty to post here since Offal identified himself as a fellow product of the NYC school system. There really is a difference between a grad from a 4th tier college with a degree in fire science/fire safety and a BSc-Nursing graduate from a first tier university.

  7. #7 MD1970
    December 7, 2011

    @Krebiozen-
    Citations please-
    “Hard to predict at birth”- My wife doesn’t have Hep B!
    All health workers in the hospital are vaccinated against Hep B.
    All my relatives are Hep B free, I don’t have nannies, I don’t plan on putting my
    child in day care until 3 years old. I don’t plan on cheating on my wife….. etc

  8. #8 Narad
    December 7, 2011

    Offit the Crook deliberately misled the people into thinking that the “200” antigens from his article were vaccinia viral antigens (a prelude to show that “Children are Exposed to Fewer Antigens in Vaccines Today Than in the Past”). They weren’t instead they were 200 bacterial organisms.

    I hate to break it to you, but you haven’t demonstrated this.

  9. #9 Lawrence
    December 7, 2011

    So, you’re child plans on never coming into contact with anyone that’s HepB positive ever, right?

    Good luck with that.

  10. #10 Sid Offit
    December 7, 2011

    Baglady, you still haven’t identified a study or data set supporting Mast’s 33,000 number. And what 2003 data are you talking about in #193???

  11. #11 lilady
    December 7, 2011

    I cannot believe that Offal again posts a TEN YEAR OLD article authored by Eric Mast M.D., M.P.H.!!!

    @ Narad: “I’m not of SEA descent.

    And this is apropos of what?”

    It is apropos of Offal’s awful prejudice against Asians, Blacks, Latinos….anyone who is not part of his Whitey-Tighty world. He doesn’t care that the babies who died of pertussis during the outbreak last year in California were little brown babies…as long as no White kids died.

  12. #12 MD1970
    December 7, 2011

    @Science Mom,
    Thanks for providing that link so I didn’t have to look it up-
    Both sides of the vaccine debate have different interpretations of the data.
    You still fail to grasp my point- the current vaccine schedule has not been
    proven to be safe.

  13. #13 Narad
    December 7, 2011

    It is apropos of Offal’s awful prejudice against Asians, Blacks, Latinos….

    Sure, but he accidentally advanced a bit more.

  14. #14 Sid Offit
    December 7, 2011

    LOL. The race card. You’re such a predictable, one trick pony, baglady.

  15. #15 Narad
    December 7, 2011

    You still fail to grasp my point- the current vaccine schedule has not been
    proven to be safe.

    Get it over with and define your standard of proof.

  16. #16 Th1Th2
    December 7, 2011

    Narad,

    I hate to break it to you, but you haven’t demonstrated this.

    And I will even further up the argument to show that Offit the Crook indeed had been barking up the wrong tree.

    Vaccinia virus, the vaccine used to eradicate smallpox, has about 200 genes, and many of these encode proteins that help the virus evade the host’s immune defences.

    h_ttp://www.plospathogens.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.ppat.1000128

    There goes the equal level playing field. Check the last link at 147.

  17. #17 lilady
    December 7, 2011

    Offal…you need to take some reading comprehension courses. All the article I cited and all the articles you cited are authored by Paul Mast, M.D. M.P.H. The numbers cited by Dr. Mast are all estimates.

    Why not try to find the definition of “estimates” from Google?

    From the article I have cited repeatedly “What Would Happen If We Stopped Vaccinations?” (Content last reviewed May 24, 2007 & This page last modified June 24, 2011):

    Basics and Common Questions:
    What Would Happen If We Stopped Vaccinations?

    In the U.S., vaccination programs have eliminated or significantly reduced many vaccine-preventable diseases. However, these diseases still exist and can once again become common—and deadly—if vaccination coverage does not continue at high levels.

    On this page (Figures and Statistics Updated 2003):

    * Introduction

    * Measles

    * Polio

    * Type b (Hib) Meningitis

    * Hepatitis B

    * Pertussis (Whooping Cough)

    * Pneumococcal

    * Rubella (German Measles)

    * Varicella (Chickenpox)

    * Diphtheria

    * Tetanus (Lockjaw)

    * Mumps

    Offal, please refrain from mentioning that you are a product of the NYC public school system…I’m getting tired from explaining that you are twit aberration.

  18. #18 Science Mom
    December 7, 2011

    Thanks for providing that link so I didn’t have to look it up-

    How does one make the claims you are and didn’t even know of the existence of that report and all of the data to generate it?

    Both sides of the vaccine debate have different interpretations of the data.

    There aren’t both sides of the vaccine debate and the reason you think that and that there are “different interpretations of the data” is that the data don’t support your beliefs and “your side of the debate” is unable to grasp that.

    You still fail to grasp my point- the current vaccine schedule has not been
    proven to be safe.

    The failure isn’t mine; you have yet to answer my questions about the parameters of safety you find inadequate.

  19. #19 Chris
    December 7, 2011

    MD1970:

    Farmer’s grange?!! Children are not cattle! Or are you a mooo___m?

    Are you really that stupid? Ranchers handle cattle. Dairy farmers also grow the winter silage, and other farmers grow plants.

    Do you really not know what a cooperative does?

    Let us sum up: MD1970 has made several unsupported assertions, has selectively quoted the webpages he uses, has failed to note the webpage and refused to actually provide any real science.

    He is either very very stupid, or just a compulsive liar. Into the ignore bin you go with Thingy, Robert Schecter and blackheart.

  20. #20 Narad
    December 7, 2011

    And I will even further up the argument to show that Offit the Crook indeed had been barking up the wrong tree.

    You haven’t even “upped the squirrel.” All you’re doing is finding occurrences of the number 200, jumping into the barrrel that I presume you also use as a garment, and rolling down a hill.

  21. #21 Krebiozen
    December 7, 2011

    Sid,
    Nice to know you plan on preventing your children from associating with SE Asians. Add another order of magnitude to that risk if you insist. How does 1 in a million stack up against 1 in a thousand?

    8700 non-Asian children

    Were their parents planning on them getting infected?

    MD1970,

    My wife doesn’t have Hep B! … All my relatives are Hep B free

    How do you know? Have they all been tested? Do any of them have tattoos? Have they ever visited an acupuncturist? I worked with a very nice, respectable woman who found she had had hepatitis B without even knowing it.

    I don’t plan on putting my child in day care until 3 years old.

    So you will get your child vaccinated against hepatitis B at 3?

    I don’t plan on cheating on my wife….. etc

    No one plans on getting hepatitis B. There are around a million Americans with chronic hepatitis B, many of them don’t know it. You can gamble that none of them will come near your child, or you can get your child vaccinated. I still don’t understand why anyone would choose the former.

    Lilady,

    There is no need to revise your estimations

    I know, I found several reliable references to the 30,000 figure. My point is that even if he was right, vaccination is still several orders of magnitude safer than not vaccinating.

  22. #22 Denice Walter
    December 7, 2011

    @ Sid Offit ( Robert)
    @ MD1970:

    This is a very serious question: you have strong views about vaccines; how did your position evolve? Are there books, specific writers, teachings, or personal(family) experiences that have shaped your current stance?
    ( e.g. I can trace my own – opposing- views to undergraduate courses, family history, and experience working with seriously ill people)
    Thanks. DW

  23. #23 Th1Th2
    December 7, 2011

    Narad,

    You haven’t even “upped the squirrel.” All you’re doing is finding occurrences of the number 200, jumping into the barrrel that I presume you also use as a garment, and rolling down a hill.

    Seriously, you’re not paying attention, are you? I said check #147.

    h_ttp://jvi.asm.org/content/82/2/652/T1.expansion.html

  24. #24 Krebiozen
    December 7, 2011

    33,000 – finger slipped.

  25. #25 Narad
    December 7, 2011

    Seriously, you’re not paying attention, are you? I said check #147.

    I did. It has nothing to do with your numerological misstep. Keep in mind that I am not playing “name the antigens” with you.

  26. #26 MD1970
    December 7, 2011

    @Science Mom
    I knew of the link-that and many others.
    There are enough questions left unanswered- like why are there now 1 in 6
    developmentally disabled children.
    You have not offered anything in the way of links etc that I have not read-
    Sorry, you haven’t convinced me that the current schedule is safe, especially
    with the Hep B given at birth.

  27. #27 Narad
    December 7, 2011

    Sorry, you haven’t convinced me that the current schedule is safe

    Again, quit wasting everyone’s time and just state your standard of proof.

  28. #28 lilady
    December 7, 2011

    “LOL. The race card. You’re such a predictable, one trick pony, baglady.”

    Here is an example of Offal’s comments regarding race:

    “Offal, I saw the Comment you posted under the picture of the little girl infected with smallpox on “SBM-Smallpox and pseudomedicine”, “Wow she’s pretty”. You really are the nastiest of trolls.

    Posted by: lilady | May 28, 2011 12:02 AM”

    (RI-Autism One: the yearly quackfest begins-May 25, 2011)

    Offal, would you like me to visit your now-defunct blog to pull up some more of your prejudiced postings?

    If Orac ever blogs about fire safety/fire science and we have a need for someone with your “expertise”…we will call upon you.

  29. #29 Th1Th2
    December 7, 2011

    Narad,

    I did. It has nothing to do with your numerological misstep. Keep in mind that I am not playing “name the antigens” with you.

    Do you mean Children-are-Exposed-to-Fewer-Antigens-in-Vaccines-Today-Than-in-the-Past-gambit is now officially busted?

    It must be a very disappointing day for RI methinks.

  30. #30 Narad
    December 7, 2011

    Do you mean Children-are-Exposed-to-Fewer-Antigens-in-Vaccines-Today-Than-in-the-Past-gambit is now officially busted?

    Try to pay attention to tense, infection promoter.

  31. #31 lilady
    December 7, 2011

    I’m still confused about Thingy’s posts and the Th1Th2bot’s posts…why do the bot’s posts make more sense?

    Offal…let us know when you are going to comment again as an expert in vaccines, on mainstream media broadcasts. I’ll be sure to listen in and provide an appropriate critique. Loser.

  32. #32 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    December 7, 2011

    There are enough questions left unanswered- like why are there now 1 in 6
    developmentally disabled children.

    You nimrod—there are always going to be 1 in 6 “developmentally disabled” children because in any population, about 1 in 6 is more than one standard deviation below the mean. That’s just how a Normal distribution works. I don’t want to get moderated, but go to Wikipedia and type in “Normal distribution” and educate yourself.

  33. #33 Th1Th2
    December 7, 2011

    Narad,

    Try to pay attention to tense, infection promoter.

    It won’t help your case in any way imaginable. So please give respect to the dead Children-are-Exposed-to-Fewer-Antigens-in-Vaccines-Today-Than-in-the-Past-gambit.

    Sorry for the loss.

  34. #34 Science Mom
    December 7, 2011

    You have not offered anything in the way of links etc that I have not read-
    Sorry, you haven’t convinced me that the current schedule is safe, especially
    with the Hep B given at birth.

    The link I offered was in response to your claim that:

    No infectious disease journal, pediatric or vaccine journal as cited above will report any adverse events associated with vaccines because most pediatricians deny adverse events. Hardly unbiased.

    I then asked you what the parameters were for vaccine safety that you found inadequate and you are doing your damnedest to avoid answering that.

    There are enough questions left unanswered- like why are there now 1 in 6
    developmentally disabled children.

    Now see it sounds as though you have already decided the answer and we all know it’s teh vaxeens. You do know how encompassing “developmentally disabled” is don’t you? It isn’t a new phenomenon. You don’t get to make unsubstantiated wild-ass claims without even perusing a DSM first.

    So tell me, what study design is required for your satisfaction?

  35. #35 Narad
    December 7, 2011

    Sorry for the loss.

    And I’m sorry for yours. It’s not that often that you blow it this badly, although in fairness, it appears to have been a new addition to your repertoire.

  36. #36 Vicki
    December 7, 2011

    MD1970: OK, your plans sound good, but while you can plan to not cheat on your wife (which is, I note, different from not planning *to* cheat on her), can you count on your children never having sex with anyone who hasn’t tested negative for Hepatitis B? Would you like to explain, 20 years from now, that your beloved child has to wait several months before dating that updating pre-med student because you didn’t want to get her the HepB vaccine as an infant? More to the point, do you want to count on your child asking you about this before starting to date?

  37. #37 Narad
    December 7, 2011

    (Note to self: It always tries to castle too late.)

  38. #38 Chris
    December 7, 2011

    The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge:

    You nimrod—there are always going to be 1 in 6 “developmentally disabled” children because in any population, about 1 in 6 is more than one standard deviation below the mean.

    On November 23, 2001 in the “Picking Up One’s Marbles” thread, you told MD1970:

    You really are an imbecile, aren’t you? Even if no pathology ever occurred, 15.9%—close enough to one in six—are going to be more than one standard deviation below the mean in any population, anywhere in the world, ever!

    Yes, he really is that stupid. He probably did not realize why Garrison Keillor saying “all the children are above average” is funny.

  39. #39 MD1970
    December 7, 2011

    @Science Mom-
    Case-controlled study between vaccinated according to current schedule vs.
    modified vaccine schedule (I’m sure Dr. Sears and Gordon would cooperate)
    and subsequent developmental progress, health status (ie # of
    doctor visits, any medication given etc ) at five years of age (assuming no vaccine exemptions for school)

  40. #40 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    December 7, 2011

    I know, Chris—I fully intended to type “It’s been repeatedly pointed out to you” in that last post, but somehow failed.

    He probably didn’t get Kevin Nealon’s News Update story on SNL, either: “A new study reveals that over 50% of Americans are in the majority, while less than 50% are in the minority! More on this story as it develops.”

  41. #41 Chris
    December 7, 2011

    All MD1970 is good for is mocking, just like Thingy, blackheart and Schecter.

    By the way, when my son went into the school district’s Child Find evaluation he had to be two standard deviations below in more than one criteria to be eligible for special ed. services. Which he met, especially the lack of speech and language at age three.

  42. #42 MD1970
    December 7, 2011

    @Vicki-
    Long-term immunogenicity and efficacy of hepatitis B vaccine never lasts
    that long- 5 years at the most.

  43. #43 Narad
    December 7, 2011

    Long-term immunogenicity and efficacy of hepatitis B vaccine never lasts
    that long- 5 years at the most.

    You’re really lazy, aren’t you? Anamnestic response?

  44. #44 Th1Th2
    December 7, 2011

    Mephistopheles,

    As we’ve previously discussed, you either take the risk with the real disease or with the vaccine.

    You don’t give me a hand gun and then tell me to shoot myself. I’m no idiot.

    The vaccine has way more empty chambers than the real wild disease.

    Like I said, I don’t play your lethal game.

    And, as you’ve previously admitted, you have no idea whether you’re being exposed – so surprise, you’re playing the game right now.

    Your infection-promoting agenda is not on my ADLs.

  45. #45 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 7, 2011

    I’m not telling you to do anything. You’re in the game just by living. Deal with it.

  46. #46 Dianne
    December 7, 2011

    Long-term immunogenicity and efficacy of hepatitis B vaccine never lasts that long- 5 years at the most.

    Anecdote alert, but I have a detectible titer more than 10 years after immunization. Actually, more than 15…nearly 20. Gad, I’m old!

  47. #47 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 7, 2011

    If you’d rather play with 2 bullets and 998 empty chambers instead of 1 bullet and 999,999 empty chambers, knock yourself out.
    It’s no skin off my nose.

  48. #48 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 7, 2011

    Th1Th2 – By the way, I’m seriously interested in your real answer to the questions in 148 above. I mean that honestly. Please no evasions or half-hearted answers. If you’ve got real evidence, that’d be a real eye opener to me.

  49. #49 Th1Th2
    December 7, 2011

    I’m not telling you to do anything. You’re in the game just by living. Deal with it.

    If you’d rather play with 2 bullets and 998 empty chambers instead of 1 bullet and 999,999 empty chambers, knock yourself out.
    It’s no skin off my nose.

    You’re forcing me to play your game of death. Please honor my refusal.

  50. #50 Science Mom
    December 7, 2011

    Case-controlled study between vaccinated according to current schedule vs.
    modified vaccine schedule (I’m sure Dr. Sears and Gordon would cooperate)
    and subsequent developmental progress, health status (ie # of
    doctor visits, any medication given etc ) at five years of age (assuming no vaccine exemptions for school)

    What would be the justification for this when you have studies like this that answer your question:
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/03/for_the_anti-vaccinationists_out_there_t.php

    http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/Vaccines/20249

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19952979

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12182372

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971117

    And there are more (if you ever care to do a proper search) on a plethora of conditions that aren’t associated with vaccines. By the by, Sears and Gordon would not be interested and even if they were, they would have to get permission from their patients’ parents and a sufficient number of them would have to agree for statistical power. But this is moot since both or either of them would have done a study like this by now if they a.)knew how and b.)weren’t content with knowing their cash cow and not risking blowing it with pesky evidence.

  51. #51 Edith Prickly
    December 7, 2011

    It’s a veritable Trollapalooza here tonight, featuring all your favourite anti-vaxx loons: Thingy’s Off Her Meds Again, Offal Trooth, and Most Delusional 1970.

    Which reminds me, tomorrow’s flu shot day – though I only get the wussy thimerosal-free Canadian vaccine. Health Freedom!!111!

  52. #52 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    December 7, 2011

    You’re forcing me to play your game of death. Please honor my refusal.

    Nobody is going to stop mocking you until you acknowledge that you are playing the first game whether you like it or not. Choosing it over the second game simply shows your shocking innumeracy.

  53. #53 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 7, 2011

    What part of “I’m not telling you to do anything” are you having problems with? I didn’t even bring Russian Roulette into the conversation – that was your particular metaphor. It’s not even me who’s trying to keep you in the game – life does that all by itself. I wish it weren’t the case – I honestly do. But get real – people get sick, sometimes they die or suffer other really awful disabilities. The numbers say that people who get immunized don’t die or get really awful disabilities as often as people who don’t. So your refusal to “play” is merely self deception – and you decrease your odds of survival. Sorry, not my fault.

  54. #54 TBruce
    December 7, 2011

    Case-controlled study between vaccinated according to current schedule vs.
    modified vaccine schedule (I’m sure Dr. Sears and Gordon would cooperate)
    and subsequent developmental progress, health status (ie # of
    doctor visits, any medication given etc ) at five years of age (assuming no vaccine exemptions for school)

    I’m not convinced that the “modified” schedule is any safer, since the reasons for it are based entirely on slogans (too much! too soon!), Dr. Jay’s clinical judgement AKA personal prejudice AKA pandering to Hollywood Mommies, and vague speculation AKA stuff someone has pulled from his ass based on a complete misunderstanding of the immune system, infectious diseases and risk analysis.

    However, if you can raise the cash (these studies are expensive), get permission of enough parents (you will need a LOT of parents), meet the requirements for an ethical study on children(these are pretty rigorous) and are open to FULLY disclosing the risks of this study (especially the ones that you seem to be reluctant to mention) to the prospective participants, then go for it.

    It will be a waste of time, money and childrens’ health, of course, because you will brush off the results when (and that’s WHEN, not IF) they don’t support your preconceived conclusions.

    Am I being too harsh?

    Good.

  55. #55 Th1Th2
    December 7, 2011

    Nobody is going to stop mocking you until you acknowledge that you are playing the first game whether you like it or not. Choosing it over the second game simply shows your shocking innumeracy.

    Haha. You’ve confused my ordinary ADLs with your infection-promoting agenda. So technically, I am not playing around nor I’m interested in doing so. What are you going to do now?

  56. #56 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    December 7, 2011

    Haha. You’ve confused my ordinary ADLs with your infection-promoting agenda. So technically, I am not playing around nor I’m interested in doing so. What are you going to do now?

    Oh, you’re playing, moron—unless you’re living in a plastic bubble, breathing filtered air, drinking distilled water, and growing your own food in there, you can’t help playing the first game. You’re just too idiotically stupid to realize it.

  57. #57 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 7, 2011

    You know, I somehow picture Th1Th2 being played by Shannen Doherty, curled in a corner weeping “honor my refusal” before lashing out, “ha ha, you’ve confused my ordinary ADLs with your infection-promoting agenda.” Then she collapses in tears.
    Is that so wrong?

  58. #58 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    December 7, 2011

    Picturing Shannen Doherty is wrong under any circumstances, and now you made me do it! Curse you, Mephistopheles!

    (My spell-check underlines “Doherty”, but not “Shannen” with an “e”? That’s just bizarre!)

  59. #59 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 7, 2011

    The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge – Well, then, my work is done.
    And yes, I had to Google her name.

  60. #60 Th1Th2
    December 7, 2011

    Mephistopheles,

    What part of “I’m not telling you to do anything” are you having problems with?

    You’re suggesting that I must play with “bullets”? Well I don’t. What are you going to do now? Shoot me in the back?

    life does that all by itself.

    Yeah like vaccination is a natural thing.

    But get real – people get sick, sometimes they die or suffer other really awful disabilities.

    Because they were in the game?

    The numbers say that people who get immunized don’t die or get really awful disabilities as often as people who don’t.

    Science says that the unvaccinated and those who remained uninfected with VZV will never have to deal with shingles later in life.

    So your refusal to “play” is merely self deception – and you decrease your odds of survival. Sorry, not my fault.

    Haha. Last time I checked, vaccination is not among man’s physiological need at least that’s according to Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs.

  61. #61 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 7, 2011

    Th1Th2 – I notice you convenient left out my statement ” I didn’t even bring Russian Roulette into the conversation – that was your particular metaphor.”
    You’re the one who wants to play with bullets, I’m just talking in your metaphor

  62. #62 Narad
    December 7, 2011

    You’re forcing me to play your game of death. Please honor my refusal.

    No. You have failed with the numerology of 200. JGC pounded you like a schnitzel, yet you persisted. Thus, you demanded the end game.

  63. #63 Th1Th2
    December 7, 2011

    Mephistopheles,

    Yes that was my metaphor of infection promoters like you and you’ve since acknowledged it (“bullets”,relative risks and odds ratio)

    Thanks but no thanks. I don’t want to play your game of death.

  64. #64 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 7, 2011

    Th1Th2 – if you don’t want to play Russian Roulette, don’t. Stop bringing it up. Really. I’m worried.

  65. #65 Th1Th2
    December 7, 2011

    Narad,

    No. You have failed with the numerology of 200. JGC pounded you like a schnitzel, yet you persisted. Thus, you demanded the end game.

    Haha. I might have missed that schnitzel thingy. Citation needed please.

  66. #66 Th1Th2
    December 7, 2011

    Th1Th2 – if you don’t want to play Russian Roulette, don’t. Stop bringing it up. Really. I’m worried.

    You don’t have to worry. I’m no idiot. Meanwhile, continue with your infection-promoting agenda and get recognized while you’re still drunk.

    Just don’t shoot the naive.

  67. #67 Gray Falcon
    December 7, 2011

    Th1Th2, here’s a serious question. How do you plan on “opting out”? I don’t just mean vaccination, I mean disease in general.

  68. #68 Narad
    December 7, 2011

    Haha. I might have missed that schnitzel thingy. Citation needed please.

    The only citation needed is how your parents punished you. You have failed.

  69. #69 Sid Offit
    December 7, 2011

    @Kreb

    I know, I found several reliable references to the 30,000 figure. My point is that even if he was right, vaccination is still several orders of magnitude safer than not vaccinating.

    Please share. And something scientific please. Something a little more substantial than Dr. Mass says or the CDC estimates.

  70. #70 Gray Falcon
    December 7, 2011

    Sid, if you’re not accepting the CDC’s values, I can safely assume you’ll simply dismiss anything else out of hand.

  71. #71 Sid Offit
    December 7, 2011

    Falcon, I accept the CDC values if they have a rational basis. If I have information that disputes CDC statements and if no one can trace the source of the statements, I have to question them. Initially, I simply asked the basis of the 33,000 number. As of yet, no one has come forth with anything resembling a scientific justification for them.

  72. #72 Gray Falcon
    December 7, 2011

    How about the fact that the CDC is an organization whose primary purpose is to track the number of those infected! That’s a f***ing good reason right there!

  73. #73 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 7, 2011

    You don’t have to worry. I’m no idiot. Meanwhile, continue with your infection-promoting agenda and get recognized while you’re still drunk.

    Golly, where to begin?
    1. I’m not drunk.
    2. You’re the one with the apparent gun fixation, not me.
    3. The next time you’re interacting with – or merely around – people, ask yourself how you can be sure you’re not at that moment exposed to VZV.

  74. #74 Sid Offit
    December 7, 2011

    Then they should be able to produce a footnote leading us to the data from which they derived their number, shouldn’t they?

  75. #75 Th1Th2bot Service Center
    December 7, 2011

    Sebastocrator no more and unwilling to admit it. Tsk. The bot has asked to have all cycles diverted to a condolence card.

  76. #76 lilady
    December 8, 2011

    @ Offal: You are the one who keeps questioning the estimates of reduction of Hepatitis B transmission, from Dr. Mast M.D., M.P.H., Division of Viral Hepatitis, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    Offal, there is also information on the web from the WHO about the effectiveness of hepatitis B vaccine in preventing and decreasing the numbers of children who are infected with the virus.

    Which alternative websites would you look at to dispute the estimates provided by Dr. Mast, the CDC and the WHO?

  77. #77 lilady
    December 8, 2011

    @ Gray Falcon: We have a problem here dealing with Offal’s limited education and his anti-vax stance. Offal doesn’t even know the difference between hepatitis A, hepatitis B and hepatitis C. Offal certainly doesn’t realize that infection with hepatitis A through fecal-oral transmission is different than the blood borne hepatitis B and hepatitis C viruses. We have more precise numbers of cases of hepatitis A because the acute stage of the disease is manifested within a few weeks.

    He cannot fathom how “estimates” using algorithms are employed by epidemiologists and public health physicians to determine decreases in transmission rates for the virus. He is too stupid to realize that the majority of infections/chronic carriage cases are asymptomatic for years and asymptomatic chronic carriers learn about their disease state when they donate blood, when they are pregnant or when they eventually become symptomatic with jaundice and elevated liver enzymes.

    What do you expect from Offal whose “expertise” is in fire science/fire safety?

  78. #78 MD1970
    December 8, 2011

    @Science Mom-
    Orac’s blog-German study
    Children were considered vaccinated with one vaccination.
    Not a good study. No time to list all the reasons. Better check that study
    again.

  79. #79 Imogen
    December 8, 2011

    Lawrence @ #2

    I hypothesis that I could recreate the autism epidemic just by poking kids with needles – the more pokes, the greater number of autistic children I could create.

    OMG its the Acupuncure! I Knew it!! I´ve always known it. I feel it in my heart!

  80. #80 Glaxxon PharmaCOM Orbital
    December 8, 2011

    MESSAGE BEGINS——————————

    Shills and Minions:

    As you have probably discovered, we have lost all contact with the “Thingy” practice drone. It seems stuck in a senseless loop and won’t respond to commands, a GPhCOM Service Center Bulletin has been issued. The Thinglish/English translations graciously provided by our surface technical base will have to suffice until we can get an Obsidian Unit dispatched to the surface for drone retreival and a wetware team can reccomend reorientation or retirement of the unit. The ladies on Level 7 assure me it was a clone replication error and that it’s entirely possible that one of the Txokani clone specialists in the lab spilled one of her MethylAde™ energy drinks near the Th1Th2 unit while the envatting process was incomplete.

    We apologize for any distress that this unit may have caused. I hear your complaints about the quality of the recent batch of practice drones and be assured, your eeeevil PharmaOverlords™ are listening. We’ll try to spice things up with new logic sacs for the wetware and refine frantabulation parameters for maximum freen and sliding. We will try to download some fresh evasion and logic programs to replace those tired old sequences the Offit unit has been running and the MD1970 will be recalled entirely as it was clearly meant for first-year cadets to flent during shred drills.

    Well, I must return to my planetary drugging and enslavement plans, not to mention the seating charts for a dinner party for the Hshvsssk ambassador and her nodes (you try planning a menu for cyanophiles, and then we’ll talk). Don’t forget, the PharmaCOM Holiday PharmaPhestivity™ is nearly upon us. Text Cindy with the number in your party and your retrieval coordinates as this year we will be dining in the lovely Shield Wall Room at The Fifth Invader Force Implant Station on Olympus Mons, so pressure suits will be required for the whole family.

    Once again, apologies for the technical difficulties and keep up the nefarious activities that will keep you showered with PharmaLucre™.

    Lord Draconis Zeneca V74950ihL

    Pharmaca Magna of Terra, Foreward Mavoon of the Great Fleet, Imperial Planetary Subjugation Commander, Master of Seating Charts

    PharmaCOM Orbital 010010000100100100001010111110101010101000codedMTV34k

    ———————————————MESSAGE ENDS

    Ho, Ho, Ho, Shills and Minions

  81. #81 Science Mom
    December 8, 2011

    Not a good study. No time to list all the reasons. Better check that study
    again.

    Oh you can do better than that. It was a decent study particularly with the limitations they had. They don’t give a rat’s arse about the U.S. and UK’s ever-changing goalposts and made a good preliminary case for dismantling the claim that “unvaccinated are healthier than vaccinated”. You may want to note that I included other studies which don’t seem to lend any support for the fishing expedition that you proposed.

  82. #82 augustine
    December 8, 2011

    Baglady

    He cannot fathom how “estimates” using algorithms are employed by epidemiologists and public health physicians to determine decreases in transmission rates for the virus.

    Translation: “I have no idea how they came up with those numbers. I just trust the CDC. They don’t need citations because they are the truth. The pink book is the bible and what the CDC says is gospel.”

    Some skeptic you are.

    Sid asked for a simple request. Just admit that you don’t know where they got those numbers instead of condescending that you’re a nurse and that everyone else is incapable of your intellect.

  83. #83 MI Dawn
    December 8, 2011

    Well, MD1970 has joined the killfile crowd of little augie, Thingy, and Silly Sid (btw, lilady, don’t you know Silly Sid is like Beetlejuice? You say his name 3 times and he appears…). I hope he likes the company; the brainpower of them all seems to be the same. Just like the Flatheads in “Glinda of Oz” (By Baum), someone has stolen their brains.

    I have to be honest and admit I delayed my kids’ hep B vaccines, but then again when they were born, Hep B was not a standard part of the vaccine schedule; it was still optional. If I’d known then what I know now, they would have gotten it as infants. They DID get the vaccine before middle school, when it became a required vaccine. My kids are fully vaccinated, even with “teh ebil” HPV vaccine. They both get flu vaccines annually, by their choice. Seems my young adults have more brains than the troll adults on this blog.

  84. #84 Chris
    December 8, 2011

    MD1970:

    Children were considered vaccinated with one vaccination.

    That is one of the most idiotic moving of the goalposts I have ever seen. First there is a demand that none of the previous studies were valid because it compared kids who may have had one or two vaccines with kids who were fully vaccinated, and now it is because they chose a group where kids had no vaccines.

    This is why there is no evidence that will convince idiots like MD1970. Especially since he can’t answer questions with anything but argument by blatant assertion, and keeps repeating things that he has been told was wrong multiple times.

  85. #85 DW
    December 8, 2011

    My dearest Lord Draconis,

    You have out-done yourself! Again! You certainly must have filed away my numerous hints deep in your reptilian brain that I wanted a company ( I liked that eponymous energy one or Sanofi- I like the sound of *Sanofi* _and_ what they do) but never in my wildest dreams did I expect a controlling interest in an iconic fashionable brand. A really nice one, too. Plaids should *always* be tan.

    I realise that I put down the unionist movement amongst disatisfied shills, blithely infiltrated the Terran Spring rebellion of the alligned Trans-Atlantic Brits and WASPs level 3s, and am now working on that OccupyPharmaCom nonsense. All in a day’s work. Nothing special. It’s my job.

    On a more serious note, you may be observed that RI ( a/k/a Shill Central) has been visited by many new up-and-coming vaccine-autism theoreticians- and they all congregate here as though it were a frigging meeting hall for hire at a hotel. But at least we’ve got them all in one place, displaying their wares. For those who watch them.

    Happy Christmas ( or Separation-from-the-Mother-World Day or whatever it is you celebrate around the solstice) Kiss kiss. See you at the festivities.

    Much love,
    DW, whatever my title is

  86. #86 lilady
    December 8, 2011

    @ MI Dawn: I see that little Augie is out of moderation purdah and has joined the other clueless anti-vax, intellectually challenged trolls…Sid Offal and (Not an MD)1970. Here are some websites for the trolls to peruse:

    MMWR-Weekly November 5, 2004 Acute Hepatitis B Among Children and Adolescents United States 1990-2002

    Universal Hepatitis B Vaccination Reduces Childhood Hepatitis B Virus-Related Membranous Nephropathy (Pediatrics Journal-September 1, 2011)

  87. #87 augustine
    December 8, 2011

    @baglady

    Here are some websites for the trolls to peruse:

    The question was pretty simple and straight forward. Give the citation for the data which is the basis of the 33,000 “estimate”. Do you understand?

    It’s a skeptical question.

    Meanwhile here are some for you to chew on:

    http://www.sgm.ac.uk/pubs/micro_today/pdf/050005.pdf

    Hepatitis B is effectively a sexually transmitted disease
    in developed countries, but is endemic in other parts of
    the world such as Africa, or particularly China.

    Do you see 3 day olds born to Hep B negative mothers in there? Nope.

    Hepatitis B vaccines were initially targeted at specific at
    risk groups, including healthcare workers and business
    travellers, and were made either from antigen from the
    plasma of infected donors or from antigen expressed in
    genetically modified organisms, such as yeast.

    Why didn’t they target neonates born to Hep B negative mothers? Hmm I thought they were high risk? Nope! Not high risk!

    They were(and remain) expensive, but have now been incorporated
    into global vaccination programmes, including universal
    usage in most developed countries as the impact on
    incidence following targeted use was not great. The
    usage in developed countries can therefore subsidize that
    in developing countries, but only if valid and recognizable
    uses in wealthy markets exist
    .

    Now we can see why naive nurses like lilady were fooled when the orders came down from the top. It was an economic strategy, lilady, not a scientific one.

    But the CDC actually says why the targeted infants and it wasn’t because of infants of HepB negative mothers being at risk.

    http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/PREVIEW/MMWRHTML/00033405.htm

    In the United States, most infections occur among adults and adolescents (2,3). The recommended strategy for preventing these infections has been the selective vaccination of persons with identified risk factors (1,2). However, this strategy has not lowered the incidence of hepatitis B, primarily because vaccinating persons engaged in high-risk behaviors, life-styles, or occupations before they become infected generally has not been feasible.

    Sooo…. since we couldn’t motivate injecting drug users to receive 3 doses of the vaccine we moved the strategy….

    These programs appear to have reduced the risk of HBV infections among homosexual men but have not had an impact on hepatitis B attributable to parenteral drug use or heterosexual trans- mission (2). Educational efforts alone are not likely to fully eliminate the high-risk behaviors responsible for HBV transmission.

    Vaccinating adolescents and adults is substantially more expensive because of the higher vaccine cost and the higher implementation costs of delivering vaccine to target populations. In the long term, universal infant vaccination would eliminate the need for vaccinating adolescents and high-risk adults.

  88. #88 lilady
    December 8, 2011

    Still ignoring filthy-mouthed Ugh Troll.

  89. #89 JGC
    December 8, 2011

    Sid, one point re: that 16000 figure for Hep B infections in children under 10

    If you’d read the Mast article you would have found the following (bold for emphasis): “These rates indicate that by the early 1990s, HBV was infecting 16 000 children who were younger than 10 years (8700 non-Asian children and 7300 Asian-American children)annually.”

    The early 1990’s–i.e., several years after Hep B vaccinations were added to the routine immunization schedule. The 33,000 number is based on incidence rates prior to the availability of effective Hep B vaccines.

  90. #90 augustine
    December 8, 2011

    @Baglady:

    Still ignoring filthy-mouthed Ugh Troll request for original data. besides, I love to appeal to authority. Especially when it’s the CDC.

    JGC

    If you’d read the Mast article you would have found the following

    If you, JGC, would’ve read it instead of playing condescending skeptic blogger then you’d realize the “1990’s” is a decade, not a year. But no, you made an assumption anyways. Are you claiming that the vaccine itself is responsible for the discrepancy?

    The early 1990’s–i.e., several years after Hep B vaccinations were added to the routine immunization schedule.

    According to the CDC citation I gave above the Hep B was recommended in September 1991.

    The 33,000 number is based on incidence rates prior to the availability of effective Hep B vaccines.

    So, junior skeptic, could YOU provide the date of when YOU think the vaccine was recommended AND the citation for the original data from which the “estimation” was made. Or do you just believe in any old estimation by the CDC like the baglady?

    A real skeptic wouldn’t.

  91. #91 Glaxxon PharmaCOM Orbital
    December 8, 2011

    MESSAGE BEGINS—————————

    Dearest DW (Shill, Class VII | Minion, Order of K’throbey | DL)

    So happy you were pleased with our little gift. Astra and I both agree that “DWSanofi Worldwide” has such a lovely ring to it. And speaking of rings, I do hope you enjoyed your weekend with the Rothchilds and Windsors at the simply delicious Illuminati Beach Resort™ and 1% Spa. The Baron is such a fan of gifting jewelry, I think he keeps Bvlgari in business single-tentacled . . .ly—my goodness, is that even a word? No? Well, is should be.

    In any case, take a well deserved bubble bath my dear. Leave that one sad, little Occupy PharmaCOM “protester” to his devices. I admire his pluck and verve, especially since he knows that there are six fully armed 500 zettawatt matter-driver canons aimed at his forlorn, little encampment. Let him wave his placards about and rail about the “shape shifters in congress and Reptiloid PharmaOverlords in Buckingham Palace”, he’s clearly deranged . . . right? Honestly, it’s times like this I wish we could make that laugh thing you do, but a hearty hiss of mirth and a flick of the ol’ nictating membranes will have to do to register our delight.

    Yours in Total PharmaEeeeeeeeevil™,

    Lord Draconis Zeneca V47h5465iL
    Pharmaca Magna of Terra, Foreward Mavoon of the Great Fleet, Usurper of Frozen Deserts and Giver of Pharmaceutical Power

    Glaxxon PharmaCOM Orbital

    ——————————-MESSAGE ENDS

  92. #92 Sid Offit
    December 8, 2011

    JGC, it’s nice to hear a serious question for a change. My textbook has the 16,000 number as “before the integration of the of the HBV vaccine into the infant immunization schedule” as does Paul Offit’s Deadly Choices P67.

  93. #93 DrDuran
    December 8, 2011

    @Idiot1Idiot2

    You don’t give me a hand gun and then tell me to shoot myself. I’m no idiot.

    I’d love to give you a gun and tell you to shoot yourself, and yes, yes you are an Idiot.

    (side note… MMMMM Schnitzel!)

  94. #94 DrDuran
    December 8, 2011

    MD1970 is starting to sound like another Troll who keeps saying “buy my book!” but for MD it’s “it’s not safe!”.

  95. #95 lilady
    December 9, 2011

    Offal: Once again…See also the CDC website “What Would Happen If We Stopped Vaccinations?” (under the Hepatitis B header)

    “CDC estimates that one-third of the life-long hepatitis B virus infections in the United States resulted from infections occurring in infants and young children. About 16,000 – 20,000 hepatitis B antigen infected women give birth each year in the United States. It is estimated that 12,000 children born to hepatitis B virus infected mothers were infected each year before implementation of infant immunization programs. In addition, approximately 33,000 children (10 years of age and younger) of mothers who are not infected with hepatitis B virus were infected each year before routine recommendation of childhood hepatitis B vaccination.”

    1988 ACIP Recommends Hep B #1 and HBIG within 12 hours of birth for infants born to mothers who are HBsAg positive.

    1994 Hepatitis B vaccine added to the Recommended Childhood Vaccine Schedule.

    October 17, 2001 ACIP Recommends that all children receive the Hep B #1 vaccine at birth…or before hospital discharge.

  96. #96 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 9, 2011

    An update to 257 above – the part that was played by Shannen Doherty is now played by Tor Johnson. There’s no explaining the whims of casting directors.

  97. #97 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    December 9, 2011

    And The Beast of Yucca Flats was just on cable’s Public Domain Theater the other night! Get outta my head, Mephistopheles!

  98. #98 augustine
    December 9, 2011

    @Baglady

    Offal: Once again…See also the CDC website “What Would Happen If We Stopped Vaccinations?” (under the Hepatitis B header)

    Are you having a problem comprehending the request for data? Screaming “But the CDC SAYS that it’s 33,000” is not the answer here.

    If you were a true skeptic you’d be critical on both sides. But it appears you are biased “science” blogging skeptic.

    The problem is the 33,000 number serves yours and the CDC’s purpose and agenda but it can’t be scrutinized. Sid is simply asking for the citation of original data for further skepticism. Are you suddenly not a skeptic now? Are you a skeptic of convenience?

    The 33,000 number is a fabrication. What is the basis for that fabrication?

    In order to justify your fear mongering could you please tell us how many of those 33,000 were born into families who migrated from endemic countries? How many were born into families with zero risk factors for Hep B? And once again what is your source and do you have the data? I’m sure you’ll just scream “but the CDC says 33,000!” again. More unjustified fear mongering.

    Maybe you were taught exactly what you were supposed to be taught. YOu were just a robotic public health nurse trained by the CDC. You were taught to never question your authority and teacher. Their numbers are infalliable and their recommendation are “the truth”. Maybe that’s why you refer to the pink book as “the bible” of public health.

  99. #99 JGC
    December 9, 2011

    Sid

    What article/study does your textbook cite as its source for the 16,000 figure?

  100. #101 Todd W.
    December 9, 2011

    @Chris

    Thanks for the plug! I’d love for people to leave feedback over on that post.

  101. #102 Sid Offit
    December 9, 2011

    JGC

    Pediatrics. 2001 Nov;108(5):1123-8.
    Childhood hepatitis B virus infections in the United States before hepatitis B immunization.
    Armstrong GL, Mast EE, Wojczynski M, Margolis HS.

  102. #103 lilady
    December 9, 2011

    Offal: Are you really being deliberately obtuse by referring repeatedly to this article. The “operative” phrases here are

    “…before implementation of routine childhood hepatitis B immunization.” ROUTINE childhood hepatitis immunizations began in 1994.

    “…The number of nonperinatal HBV infections in children younger than 10 years was estimated by applying these infection rates to 1991 population data according to maternal race, ethnicity, and birthplace.” The study specific excluded vertical transmission rates of infection and concentrated on horizontal transmission rates.

    Here is the full citation from the Pediatrics Journal that Offal linked to:

    Objective. To estimate the number of hepatitis B virus (HBV) infections among US children younger than 10 years before implementation of routine childhood hepatitis B immunization.

    Methods. Incidence of HBV infection in children was modeled from existing prevalence data by means of regression analysis. Sources of data for the models included published and unpublished surveys that determined the prevalence of HBV infection in US-born children. The number of nonperinatal HBV infections in children younger than 10 years was estimated by applying these infection rates to 1991 population data according to maternal race, ethnicity, and birthplace.

    Results. Estimated annual rates of infection ranged from 24 per 100 000 in non-Asian children to 2580 per 100 000 in children of Southeast Asian immigrant mothers. These rates indicate that by the early 1990s, HBV was infecting 16 000 children who were younger than 10 years (8700 non-Asian children and 7300 Asian-American children) annually. The total estimate, not including perinatal infections, ranged from 12 000 (95% confidence interval: 5500–27 700) to 24 900 (95% confidence interval: 16 700–42 300) infections and depended on how the estimated rates were applied to the population data.

    Conclusion. Thousands of US children were infected each year with HBV before routine infant hepatitis B immunization, placing them at high risk of death from cirrhosis or hepatocellular carcinoma later in life.

    Still don’t understand Offal? Sorry about that, you should have studied more while in school and perhaps changed your college major.

  103. #104 lilady
    December 9, 2011

    Offal…stick around for my comment stuck in moderation. I offer up a short reading comprehension lesson for you.

  104. #105 lilady
    December 9, 2011

    Offal…Again…try reading the 39 page MMWR article I referred you to. Try to also understand that the numbers of infants who are saved from lifelong infections transmitted vertically have been revised upward. Also the total number of children infected each year (33,000) have also been revised upward as of 2010.

    Here’s an article from the MMWR (December 23,2005) website:

    A Comprehensive Strategy to Eliminate Transmission of Hepatitis B Virus Infection In The United States

    And…lookie here…The first listed author is Dr. Eric Mast, M.D., MPH.

    Here is another CDC Article: What Would Happen If We Stopped Vaccinations? See Hepatitis B section:

    CDC estimates that one-third of the life-long hepatitis B virus infections in the United States resulted from infections occurring in infants and young children. About 16,000 – 20,000 hepatitis B antigen infected women give birth each year in the United States. It is estimated that 12,000 children born to hepatitis B virus infected mothers were infected each year before implementation of infant immunization programs. In addition, approximately 33,000 children (10 years of age and younger) of mothers who are not infected with hepatitis B virus were infected each year before routine recommendation of childhood hepatitis B vaccination.

  105. #106 augustine
    December 11, 2011

    “Sources of data for the models included published and unpublished surveys that determined the prevalence of HBV infection in US-born children.”

    In case you are too dense to figure it out, baglady, this is the data he is asking for.

    The very “scientific” data of unpublished surveys. I guess you’ll have to admit the fabrication is unjustifiable. And you obviously don’t know it yourself. Your just appeal to authority like a court jester.

    Since you like to scaremonger and are sooo familiar with the CDC data, how many of these “33,000” are from non-endemic families.

    I love how you and Chris try to paint a picture that everyone is of the same risk. You two are more concerned with compliance and vaccine herd theory than you are of informed consent. It’s a bias.

  106. #107 lilady
    December 11, 2011

    Still ignoring filth-mouthed troll.

  107. #108 augustine
    December 11, 2011

    Baglady

    Still ignoring filth-mouthed troll.

    Which is the best thing since you don’t have a real answer for the data.

  108. #109 JGC
    December 12, 2011

    Sid, pay particular attention to the excerpt from “What Would Happen If We Stopped Vaccinations?”, which gives the number of infections prevented at 33,000 rather than 16,000.
    Note that the authors weren’t addressing what would happen if Hep V vaccines were removed from the routine schedule, but what would happen if we stopped vaccinating against Hep B entirely.

    Before inclusion in the routine schedule, from its licensing in 1981 to 1990, Hep B vaccine while not recommended for the general population was recommended for and given to children born to members of high risk subpopulations, which represented ~2/3’s of all patients with acute disease. (History of Vaccine Schedule, Vaccine Development in the 1980s: Hepatitis B and Haemophilus influenzae type b, available on the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia web-site).

    That’s a part of where the 16K versus 33K disconnect arises–it’s the difference between not giving it to children not born to parents who are at high risk of acute infection versus not giving it to any children at all. (That plus the fact that the 16,000 figure reflects incidence as seen in 1991, and the population has not only grown considerably since then but its demographics have changed substantially.)

  109. #110 Monado, FCD
    December 14, 2011

    >My anti-vaccine fantasy includes a form that states, “By refusing vaccination for your children you are volunteering for relocation to an isolated community of like-minded folk, where the herd immunity of responsible parents and their children will not protect you.
    Signature _________________________”

  110. #111 Monado, FCD
    December 14, 2011

    @10: antigen exposure in vaccines by decade is here:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/monado/3512186328/

  111. #112 Th1Th2
    December 14, 2011

    Monado,

    @10: antigen exposure in vaccines by decade is here:

    It’s a hoax.

    >My anti-vaccine fantasy includes a form that states, “By refusing vaccination for your children you are volunteering for relocation to an isolated community of like-minded folk, where the herd immunity of responsible parents and their children will not protect you.
    Signature _________________________”

    It’s not surprising these pro-vaccine nuts are full of fantasy.

  112. #113 Agashem
    December 17, 2011

    Well, my fantasy would be for some of these trolls to come up with some actual alternatives. Don’t keep telling me what is wrong, we have heard you. Tell me now what you want to do instead. If you want to stop vaccinating, what do you want to do instead? How do you plan to fund the fall-out? Seriously, I say the same thing to local politicians, don’t just tell me what is wrong with the other guy, tell me what you plan to do.

  113. #114 Agashem
    December 17, 2011

    My last post may sound a little bit like I believe the trolls have a point. I don’t but I would like to see them pony up some alternatives.

  114. #115 Lawrence
    December 17, 2011

    Insane troll has made its alternative abundantly clear – once vaccinations stop, all of those diseases will just die out on their own….you know, since everyone in the world can automatically tell who is infected (they have a flashing red light above their head or something similiar), right?

    And you know, before vaccinations, diseases were just dying out left and right, correct?

    Insane troll is insane – trying to reason or argue with her is pointless, because she doesn’t live on the same planet or the same reality as everyone else. It is very frustrating to see someone who is so clueless and incredibly stupid – makes it hard not to correct her mind-boggling idiocy – but again, she’s completely off her rocker and will never change, because she is “wrong-in-the-head.”

  115. #116 LW
    December 17, 2011

    @315, “everyone in the world can automatically tell who is infected (they have a flashing red light above their head or something similar)”

    Bilious green auras, Lawrence. All the cool people can see auras, and they just avoid the people with bilious green auras. Oh, and the cool people have clairvoyance, too, so they check each location before entering it, to see if anyone with a bilious green aura was in there recently. And they can check water too — but this is a family-friendly blog so we won’t go into details about what they see.

    Oh, you can’t do that?

    Well, you’re not one of the cool people, so you’ll just suffer and die in epidemics, just like in the good old days.

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