Respectful Insolence

While I’m having a bit of fun with the anti-vaccine crank blog Age of Autism, I notice that its Boy Wonder Jake Crosby, the one-trick pony whose trick is playing “six degrees of separation” in order to try to link anyone who supports the science of vaccines with big pharma, the CDC, the FDA, or any other company or regulatory agency he doesn’t like, has a new post up at AoA. In it he complains about being kicked out of a conference, the Research Ethics Book Group Lunch and Book Signing at the annual Advancing Ethical Research Conference held by Public Responsibility in Medicine and Research (PRIMR). The book being discussed was The Panic Virus by Seth Mnookin. From previous times when Jake has tried to ask what he calls “challenging questions,” the impression that I keep getting is that he tends to ramble a lot and monopolize the microphone, rather like the the Royal Rife guy did at the Trottier Symposium where I was a speaker in 2010.

Whatever happened (and I’d love to hear Seth’s version or an account from someone who was at the lunch of what really happened, given Jake’s propensity to see things only in a way that makes him appear to his fellow cranks to be a persecuted iconoclast and hero), Jake was apparently asked to leave. None of this is particularly remarkable, given that he was parroting the same nonsense about David Lewis having “exonerated” Andrew Wakefield that AoA has been pushing. In fact, I wasn’t even going to mention Jake’s post, given that getting himself kicked out of such conferences has apparently become an essential part of his anti-vaccine schtick.

But then I read the comments.

What caught my eye was a comment after Jake’s post by everybody’s favorite example of someone who thinks far more of her knowledge of science than any objective measure could justify, Ginger Taylor, who opined:

When people are right about something, or want to be sure that they are right about something, they beg for debates (heated or not). They want every aspect of an issues turned over again and again so that they can get at the truth. That way if they are wrong about something, they can lean so quickly, adjust their position/approach, and be as right as they can be as fast as they can be.

When they are wrong about something, and know it, they throw challengers out of the room. When they hate correction and learning, they shut down debate. When it is about them, their ambition, ego and goals, they may even lie to keep control of the conversation to prevent truth from coming to light.

Lovers of truth love discussion and debate. They are the last people in the room and have to be reminded to leave because the cleaning crew needs to come in. They leave a discussion with an opponent with some form of the question, “what is your email address… can I send you a piece on this from…. have you heard the lecture by…”

And anyone who truly wants to do the right thing, for matters of science and medicine and public policy to be accurate and effective and compassionate, can see the difference between lovers of truth and lovers of themselves as plain as day. I am guessing there were not that many people in the room that were fooled by his accusation of you being disruptive.

It took all my self-control not to collapse on the floor in a gibbering, hysterically laughing mass upon reading Ginger’s comment. I was, however, unable to keep at least a little giggle from escaping.

Let’s see. If what Ginger says is the case, then one of her favorite anti-vaccine conferences Autism One must not love truth. In fact, the it must hate truth. After all, its organizers have kicked out people who disagree with its anti-vaccine message each of the last four years. Let’s see. It was Ken Reibel in 2008, Chicago Tribune reporter Trine Tsouderos in 2009, a department of health employee from a western state and an independent filmmaker in 2010, and Ken Reibel (again) and Jamie Berstein in 2011. During the last of these, the organizer of Autism One brought in the Lombard, IL police to expel Ken and Jamie. It was a case of massive overkill in the name of trying to prevent discussion and debate with someone who disagrees with them and knows how to dismantle their arguments.

Truly, my irony meter has been fried, fricasseed, and melted to the point of vaporizing. To hear Jake whine about being asked to leave a conference and then to see Ginger opining in her usual nauseatingly self-congratulatory smug fashion about how “lovers of truth” like her and her buddies in the anti-vaccine movement don’t do this sort of thing were just too much for it. I wonder if there’s some sort of titanium protective case I can buy for the next one.

ADDENDUM: More irony meter destruction, courtesy of someone who goes under the ‘gym Mnookin pushed the panic button:

Why is Seth Mnookin talking instead of Dr. Lewis? Same reason Brian Deer is instead of the MDs in the UK. The Medical community is hiding behind these guys who they have cherry picked because they are gullible and willing to earn a big handsome buck by being deceptive to support “the greater good.”

“Wink-wink, hush-hush, it pays good and benefits society. Now run along and say what we tell you to say, write what we tell you to write and the money will keep coming. And if someone in the crowd stumps you with a question, here’s a button that will immediately produce a technical difficulty. We’ll be there to coach you thru how to handle it. We’ve got your back…..”

But really now, isn’t it obvious that in the end, Mnookin and Deer will be the first guys to fall and lots of finger pointing will ensue and all those who are paying them today will trash them in a heartbeat to save themselves.

Fortunately Mnookin won’t be alone in the fire pit of public disdain and flogging for long. The pharma and public health execs who were and are in a position to do something to curtail vaccine-induced brain injuries will soon join them for many long days of reckoning perhaps for the rest of their lives behind bars.

Yes, indeed. This is very much like Cathy Jameson’s fantasy about there being a grand conspiracy by scientists to hide The Truth About Autism and Vaccines. Only this time, it’s the typical crank fantasy of vindication, the prototypical rant by mad scientists in movies, “I’ll show them! I’ll show them all! And then they’ll suffer!” In other words, it’s a rather nasty fantasy about taking one’s enemies and either throwing them in jail or up against the wall.

Comments

  1. #1 Lawrence
    December 6, 2011

    Let’s compare – open & honest dialogue where both sides are free to post and present evidence vs. censoring anyone that doesn’t agree with you……can you guess which one is RI & which one is AoA?

  2. #2 Denice Walter
    December 6, 2011

    Oh dear! I read his article right after commenting about acting out and perseveration @ today’s earlier post.
    I saw this coming in August when I tried to reason with him. He’s 23; it’s a very sad state of affairs.

  3. #3 novalox
    December 6, 2011

    Sorry, Orac, I don’t have as much self-control as you do, I actually burst out in laughter at my desk.

  4. #4 MikeMa
    December 6, 2011

    Jake’s being asked to leave could be a sign of intellectual dishonesty by the conference or a sign of immaturity by Jake. Let me take a nanosecond to decide which way to look at it.

  5. #5 the bug guy
    December 6, 2011

    I’m glad the I’ve learned to disconnect my irony meter and store it a 4-hour fire-rated hazmat locker when you say that yours has been destroyed by some comment.

    That was just, wow.

  6. #6 Greg Fish
    December 6, 2011

    It’s one thing to want a debate. It’s something wholly different to hijack a Q&A session to deliver a sermon and make a spectacle of yourself.

    Oh and maybe it’s just me, but Ginger never said that AoA never kicked anyone out or that the organization’s blog wasn’t tightly moderated. You see, it’s ok for AoA to censor dissenters and kick people out of their conferences because they know the truth and those dissenters are just troublemakers who need to be dealt with. Science conferences, on the other hand, only kick out iconoclasts and visionaries.

    It all makes perfect sense when you apply the double standard…

  7. #7 Ren
    December 6, 2011

    This is all I’m going to say about this. I could say more. But I won’t…

    Kim Stagliano tells me to leave AoA and never come back… In so many words.

  8. #8 wintermute
    December 6, 2011

    I was pointed to this quote the other day, on a different topic, but it seems to work as well here:

    All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage — torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians — which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by ‘our’ side.

    –George Orwell, Notes on Nationalism, 1945

  9. #9 Corina Becker
    December 6, 2011

    See, I’ve known for a long time that AoA is an “ugly parody of a community”*, and that there are many ironic comments that go on there. So my irony meter has been tempered for this sort of thing (might also help that I’m an English major, but meh).

    But yes, this is one of the ones that I laughed out loud at.

    ~Corina
    autistic adult

    *not my phrase, comes from a version of the Bible called The Message. Can’t find my copy to reference properly.

  10. #10 Todd W.
    December 6, 2011

    C’mon, guys. Aren’t you being a bit harsh on AoA? I mean, like they say, they don’t censor, they editorialize.

    You see, when someone comes in there with “facts” and “reality”, it’s clearly just to cause trouble and make people mad, not to try to teach anything or correct errors made by the posters and commenters. It’s supposed to be a happy, comforting place where parents can feel safe, where they can ignore the real world and pamper their fantasy visions of life and everything in it. But when one of them goes to a science conference or book signing, it is clearly to educate the clearly deluded masses. And when they seek out, again and again, the same person to confront in person, it’s not stalking or obsession, it’s trying to get through to them.

    I hope I’ve cleared this whole mess up for everyone.

  11. #11 Cory Albrecht
    December 6, 2011

    I made a comment on tha AoA blog post, basically a milder version of your post, Orac. It’s still in moderation so we’ll see if it makes it past. http://cory.albrecht.name/aoa-comment-1.png

  12. #12 lilady
    December 6, 2011

    Oh cripes…I just finished posting about Jake’s latest rant on Orac’s earlier post about AoA. I should have known that a true AoA “slummer” could not resist Jake’s latest disruptive foray into a public meeting.

    “Mrs Crobsy, Mrs. Crosby–can Jake come out to play?” Why has Jake avoided our RI website? I have certainly posted some provocative comments about Boy Wonder Ace Reporter. Have his “handlers” directed him to “not come out and play at RI?”

  13. #13 GaryB
    December 6, 2011

    And people who want to manipulate others minds into giving an emotional response or simply don’t recognize their own bad logic when it escapes their mouths will characterize a confrontation as the false dichotomy of a poisoned well or a valiant hero.

    It would never escape her lips that her hero was ejected for just being an ass.

  14. #14 Emily Willingham
    December 6, 2011

    She must be unaware that AoA blocks people on Twitter who tweet a link to a site listing AoA among the worst anti-science sites on the Web….and then tweets “BOO!” at them. That is, after all, the equivalent of throwing them out of the room, putting thumb to nose, fingers splayed, and yelling, “Nanner nanner!”

  15. #15 The Peak Oil Poet
    December 6, 2011

    Funny thing.

    A man i have known for about 30 years told me once just before his med finals that he found the surgeons to be arrogant and that the reason appeared to be that they were all very Asperger’s like. On discussion with me (ASD who has raised and taught lots of ASD kids) we came to the conclusion that this might be indeed the case – the defining characteristics in play being arrogance and stubbornness.

    Arrogance and Stubbornness.

    Let’s play with that

    a family of arrogant stubborn – particularly stubborn – parents have an ASD child (passing on or even concentrating ASD traits) and in desperation to know what’s “wrong” with their child rush off to have him checked out by, you guessed t, someone who is also very arrogant and stubborn (not always the case true but this is my story so i can craft it any way my ASD nature dictates)

    recipe for unending disagreement

    The field i am in did for a long time, and probably still does to some extent, attract ASD sorts (maths, computers, engineering) and so i come across a lot of people who are like the ones i have taught or raised

    stubborn, arrogant

    it’s the absolute conviction of “i am right” and the total lack of real social skills that marks them

    the challenge i found when raising a very ASD kid was the stubbornness

    how might i deal with it?

    the easiest ways were always to let him have his way

    try fighting with him?

    forget it

    so how does someone like you – who seems to lack any empathy
    and is obviously very arrogant – deal with people who are convinced of something that not only do they believe people like you are responsible for but also that you in particular are trying to cover up?

    You might successfully sway those parents who are not so stubborn and not so arrogant but the rest?

    And the politics of you is terrible – and which proves to me that you lack any empathy for either your targets or your readers – you encourage your readers to support your approach – and many dutifully do so – but i see something not so attractive – especially when it is smeared with a layer of fake humour

    It would be nice to think someone in your position (ie lots of readers) might seek a crowd-sourcing way to help these people

    and i mean help the children of these people because i have watched what damage people can do to their children when they are not just stubborn and arrogant but also angrily resolved to prove all of you (the establishment) wrong

    turning them into pariahs wont cut it mr surgeon

    (and now, if true to form, being stubborn and arrogant you will attack me and, true to form, your little acolytes will leap to defend you)

    pop

    http://thepeakoilpoet.blogspot.com/2011/09/black-and-white.html

  16. #16 Matt Carey
    December 6, 2011

    I can’t help but be reminded of when Jenny McCarthy, JB Handley and others went on “The Doctors”. They refused to go on if there was any representation from groups they disagree with.

    To their shame, “The Doctors” caved in an accepted those terms.

    More on the subject, Andrew Wakefield refused to appear on Anderson Cooper if Seth Mnookin was interviewed on the same day.

    As to the comment by Ms. Taylor, I find that those whose positions are not supported by facts are the ones who usually call for debates. Theater over science.

    I’d love to have access to video to see what actually happened. Someone should not be ejected from a meeting like that without good cause.

    Seth Mnookin has commented via twitter: “I would have preferred responding (& tried to), altho the person wanted to grandstand not talk”

    If true, and I tend to give Seth Mnookin a lot more credibility than Jake Crosby, then this would be a reason to eject Mr. Crosby. Monopolizing the mic is disruptive to the rest of the attendees, and the other speakers waiting their turn.

  17. #17 Liz Ditz
    December 6, 2011

    Here’s how I found out about the Jake expulsion:

    Friday morning, my e-pal Judy Stone MD twittered something intriguing about the conference with the hashtag #PRIMR_AER11 so I went and looked it up. One of the comments was

    “RT @brenmil: RT @cswitwer: Heckler at @sethmnookin luncheon has been removed. Thx, Gaylord hotel. #primr_aer11 http://t.co/z89jYSBI

    Later Judy tweeted

    Lunch session with @sethmnookin had an anti-vax heckler challenging Seth re #Wakefield nonsense. #PRIMR_AER11 cc @lizditz @tweek75

    Yup. It was Jake.

    All hail Twitter. And Judy Stone. She’s awesome.

  18. #18 Roland
    December 6, 2011

    “I tend to give Seth Mnookin a lot more credibility than Jake Crosby”

    Neither of them deserve any credit – Mnookin doesn’t do any good for scientific discussion and is a distraction and a bumbling idiot when he talks in person. Orac’s name should have been on the panic virus, or just not publish it and let Offit keep talking. Mnookin, waste of time. Go back to jacking heroin.

  19. #19 Chris
    December 6, 2011

    Roland, could be more specific on your criticisms on exactly what statements Mnookin make that are distractions?

    And do you think we should also ignore Robert Kennedy, Jr. just because of his past drug abuse? Or just because he is mostly wrong?

    I will note that the biggest difference is that Mr. Mnookin cleaned himself up, with the help of his family, but that Mr. Kennedy had to be ordered by a court of law.

    If you are going to play “poison the well”, remember it can go both ways.

  20. #20 Duncan
    December 6, 2011

    Kennedy is a jackass, not sure why you bring him up.

    Mnookin’s entire being is a distraction from actual doctors and scientists trying to get everyone to immunize. Having junkies like him just gives anti-vax nutcases more ammunition.

  21. #21 Prometheus
    December 6, 2011

    Ginger Taylor:

    “When they are wrong about something, and know it, they throw challengers out of the room. When they hate correction and learning, they shut down debate. When it is about them, their ambition, ego and goals, they may even lie to keep control of the conversation to prevent truth from coming to light.”

    Definition of “Projection” (About.com):

    “Projection is a defense mechanism that involves taking our own unacceptable qualities or feelings and ascribing them to other people. For example, if you have a strong dislike for someone, you might instead believe that he or she does not like you. Projection works by allowing the expression of the desire or impulse, but in a way that the ego cannot recognize, therefore reducing anxiety.”

    Enough said?

    Prometheus

  22. #22 Roland
    December 6, 2011

    I don’t really know much about Robert Kennedy, Jr., but yeah I do agree with Duncan that that Mnookin doesn’t do the medical establishment any favors. Leave it to the medical professionals please.

  23. #23 Science Mom
    December 6, 2011

    Having junkies like him just gives anti-vax nutcases more ammunition.

    It’s faux ammunition to those who are unable to defend their un-scientific fantasies. Mnookin’s past drug use is completely irrelevant to his authorship of The Panic Virus.

  24. #24 Chris
    December 6, 2011

    Roland/Duncan, it is not nice to change ‘nyms.

    You still need to be more specific about what exactly Mr. Mnookin has actually said about the subject. So, again, what exactly has Mnooking written about vaccination that you consider a distraction. Provide the article title, where and when it was published. If the offensive words were in his book, the please provide the page numbers.

    Please answer the question without distractions like referring to his past actions (poisoning the well) and changing your username (troll like behavior).

  25. #25 MartinM
    December 6, 2011

    Would it be overly cynical of me to suggest that our host might want to check Roland’s IP against Duncan’s?

  26. #26 Roland
    December 6, 2011

    Ah Martin you’re too smart for me, lolololololol.
    I just hate junkies, Mnookin is the scum of the Earth just like all junkies are.

  27. #27 Chris
    December 6, 2011

    Whatever, both Duncan and Roland are trolls.

  28. #28 Gray Falcon
    December 6, 2011

    Roland/Duncan: Are you completely blameless in all things?

  29. #29 MartinM
    December 6, 2011

    I just hate junkies, Mnookin is the scum of the Earth just like all junkies are.

    I suspect most people prefer former junkies to bigots.

  30. #30 Vicki
    December 6, 2011

    PeakOilPoet:

    You may have something useful to say, but as far as I can tell your main assertion is that you yourself are arrogant and stubborn, and therefore the techniques other people are using must be wrong, and if I disagree with you it means I am arrogant and stubborn. I see two non sequiturs. First, that you are self-described as arrogant and stubborn proves nothing (good or bad) about other people’s techniques. Second, disagreeing with someone who has those attributes doesn’t prove anything about the one disagreeing: someone could be neither arrogant nor stubborn, but disagree with you not knowing that you consider yourself to be those things.

    More to the point, if all I know is that two arrogant, stubborn people disagree, that doesn’t tell me which of them, if either, is right. (If I assert that London is the capital of Japan, and someone else says no, of course not, everyone knows London is the capital of Argentina, we’re both wrong.)

  31. #31 The Peak Oil Poet
    December 6, 2011

    @Viki

    i would guess you have not raised an ASD child then

    it’s a trait of ASD kids to be very stubborn (or at least the many i have known)

    it’s also a trait of high functioning ASD adults in academic and business environments to be arrogant (might be because they have high IQ but low EQ)

    the issue of being right or not does not help much when two stubborn arrogant people get their backs up – your example is not worthwhile because it is too trivial – the problems occur when the evidence for “rightness” is cloudy in the mind of one or the other

    in environments i have worked in where this becomes a problem it can lead to problems for everybody because neither will back down (unless it is a trivial case like where is London but we are dealing with high IQ’s here)

    try multiplying that a few times until there’s many people involved

    could be a nightmare

    (as for your attack – yes i am arrogant and stubborn – but also i am much older and we do mellow if we are lucky)

    my point is that laughing at people and demeaning them does not aid the kids that have ASD – in fact from my experience it can actually be quite counter productive

    i have sometimes tried to deal with parents of children with ASD who get it in their heads they can cure their kid by one method or another (eg “chilation”) because they think their child has been poisoned – if you try and point out something quite obvious (like how other parents who just put a lot of love into their ASD kids do a lot for that child’s chances of making do in the world) they are apt to become very defensive and to start to distrust you and might pull their child out of one place the kid gets a chance to just relax and be accepted

    it’s not about being right

    it’s about achieving useful results

    don’t ask me how – that’s part of what i’m saying – i truly do not know

    but the sort of tone of the post above does not strike me as being something that would be very useful in a lot of cases

    if i was to direct someone with an ASD child who was adamant their child was ASD because of vaccines the above post would do little to help change them

    pop

  32. #32 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 6, 2011

    Peak Oil Poet,

    People have, from time to time, raised concerns about the tone of Orac’s comments. He has, from time to time, been known to analyze people’s comments, determine which he believes are substantiated by good science and which have not, and present that data. He does this with a breezy, somewhat insolent style that is entertaining to some and not to others.

    If Orac were the only blogger on this particular topic or if he were discussing it directly with parents of autistic children who are making up their minds about proper care, I would tend to agree that maybe he needs to soften his tone just a bit.

    Orac is not the only blogger on this topic. Other bloggers have different styles. Orac’s will be more effective with some people; other people will have better success with others.

  33. #33 Lawrence
    December 6, 2011

    @PoP – that’s the problem. These parents have embraced the idea that their children are “damaged” and in some ways, “less than human.”

    Having been close friends with autism-caregivers, I can say that these parents who blame vaccines are doing nothing to help their own children – and only putting other children at risk for catching preventable diseases. Not enough time, money & energy is spent to help parents of autistic children get the help they require – because study after study has shown that autistic children react very well to early behavioral interventions.

    Unfortunately, few insurance companies cover these programs & they are very expensive. Now, don’t you think it would be better for people like AoA to put their money and efforts behind actually helping their constituency, rather than fight the “boogeyman” of vaccines? How exactly is their stance helping the issue?

  34. #34 meg
    December 6, 2011

    Regarding Mnookin’s book, the reason it’s on my list to read before Dr Offit’s (note my list – I’ll admit, I haven’t gotten there yet, I have to get through the five books still sitting on my bedside table before I’m allowing myself to buy anymore) is that he’s NOT a doctor. So for someone like me, with a background in humanities, I’m assuming it’s going to be an easier read. Yes, that’s an assumption, but I think I wouldn’t be the only person assuming that. For people honestly wanting to know about vaccines, and not wanting to get caught up in medical jargon, Mnookin’s non-medical background may well be an advantage.
    In regards to his drug use, why exactly is it relevant? He’s clean now, and I admire someone who has had the strength to go through what must be a painful process of cleaning up.

    As for Miss Taylor:

    “When people are right about something, or want to be sure that they are right about something, they beg for debates”

    Huh? I find when people are right, know they are right, have the facts to back it up, there’s no need for debate about it. Eg, do we debate that the world is round anymore? Or am I assuming the use of logic on AoA?

  35. #35 herr doktor bimler
    December 6, 2011

    Fortunately Mnookin won’t be alone in the fire pit of public disdain and flogging for long

    Fire pit? Flogging? Someone enjoys an interesting fantasy life, or reads too much pulp fiction. “Into the Scorpion Pits with him!”

  36. #36 Cory Albrecht (@Bytor)
    December 6, 2011

    So pursuant to my comment at #11, it’s about 5 hours now since I tried to comment on the AoA blog post. Ten later comments have made it through moderation, mine has yet to appear. http://cory.albrecht.name/aoa-comment-1.png

  37. #37 Science Mom
    December 6, 2011

    Oh Cory; That comment will go down the hole and never see the light of day there. The mere invocation of Orac is enough to make them go into collective apoplexy.

  38. #38 lilady
    December 6, 2011

    @ Lawrence:

    “Unfortunately, few insurance companies cover these programs & they are very expensive. Now, don’t you think it would be better for people like AoA to put their money and efforts behind actually helping their constituency, rather than fight the “boogeyman” of vaccines? How exactly is their stance helping the issue?”

    Actually, many States have enacted laws that enhance health care coverage for specific services and treatments for children who are diagnosed with ASDs. See:

    National Conference of State Legislatures-Insurance Coverage for Autism

    Note that these enhanced coverages do NOT cover CAM/ALT therapies such as chelation, special “diets” and special “supplements” that are featured on the AoA website.

    So…how have Blaxill and Taylor from Age of Autism responded to these innovative programs to fund real services and treatments for kids with autism…they formed the Canary Party…with Blaxill as “Chairman” and Ginger Taylor as “Executive Director”:

    “In 2010, a group of parents of children who were suffering from neurological and autoimmune disorders, and who had been active for years in their efforts to get mainstream medicine to address the causes of, and find treatments for, their children’s poor health, faced the realization that while they had been earnest in their engagement of both the private medical industry and government public health officials, the medical establishment was not working in good faith with them. They decided that if anything was to be done about the epidemic levels of childhood chronic illness in the US, it would have to be a result of real political pressure to clean up the corruption in the medical establishment that was allowing bad pharmaceuticals, bad medical practices and bad public health policy to assault human health on such a wide scale.

    They began talking with those injured by medicine in other ways, those concerned with parental rights, with lack of choices in health care options, with environmental pollution, with nutrition, and with the encroachment of the medical industrial complex on the basic rights of the individual to practice informed consent in medical care.

    It was time to stop asking the medical establishment to pay attention to the epidemic of illness, and demand that they do, or replace them with better men who would.

    And so The Canary Party was born.

    In the coming days we will be hearing from many of those individuals on why they have signed on to the Canary Party, and why it was time. We hope you will subscribe and begin the discussion on how to change the course of human health history, and make medicine a safer place for the following generations.

    Source: “A New Political Party Takes Flight: The Canary Party-Age of Autism, May 27, 2011

  39. #39 Autistic Lurker
    December 6, 2011

    PoP, allow me to take exception to your rule that autistics are arrogant and stubborn. I’ve met a lot of people in my life (yes I’m social) and no one ever said that I had these two personnality trait on the contrary.

    A.L.

  40. #40 Roadstergal
    December 6, 2011

    And on the other side – I’m arrogant and stubborn, not autistic. ;)

  41. #41 MD1970
    December 6, 2011

    OOPS-
    Merck to Pay $950 Million Over Vioxx
    Looks like the ACIP has to add more vaccines to the schedule to make up for the
    shortfall.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/23/business/merck-agrees-to-pay-950-million-in-vioxx-case.html?_r=1

  42. #42 Narad
    December 6, 2011

    OOPS-
    Merck to Pay $950 Million Over Vioxx
    Looks like the ACIP has to add more vaccines to the schedule to make up for the
    shortfall.

    No, it looks like one of your trademark boneheaded non sequiturs.

  43. #43 DLC
    December 6, 2011

    Orac : Tell Jake and Ginger they owe me a pair of irony meters.

    @41 : Non Sequitur much ?

  44. #44 Chris
    December 6, 2011

    MD1970, you still have not answered the following question:

    Where was that alternative schedule with the corresponding scientific documentation to support it? How is your application to the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices coming along?

  45. #45 Sharon Morris
    December 6, 2011

    I wonder how Ginger explains deleting my respectful comments on her blog pointing to evidence that contradicts her assertions? Hypocrite much? Or just plain deluded?

  46. #46 Love your Work
    December 6, 2011

    I have been a daily reader of RI for nearly a year now and would like to thank all of the contributors who provide an education on the scientific method, vaccines and quakery to name a few of my favourite topics.

    I am what is classified as a “scientist practitioner” in my work role as a Registered Psychologist working for an Education Department that is focused strongly on evidence based practices and therapies for students with disabilities – including pervasive developmental disorders.

    I have repeatedly followed the references provided here and used them in the training I provide to other psychologists, teachers, policy officers etc. I have also referred parents of children with disabilities to this blog (with a warning to accept that a bit of insolence is going to be had).

    I have researched – the real kind – taught, lectured, briefed, investigated and begged in order to provide an evidence based curriculum to kids with disabilities for 20 years. Some days I laugh – some days I cry but the work you are all doing makes it easier for me to keep believing it is worth the fight.

    Best wishes for a safe and relaxed holiday season and I look forward to reading your insights and knowledge again in 2012.

  47. #47 GreenEyes01
    December 7, 2011

    @ PoP
    Seriously, what is your point? I could not for the life of me work out how the contents of your post was relating to assertion.

    Furthermore, if I understood the gist about Orac’s mannerisms I agree with #32. Also, this blog is meant to address evidence etc. He is not directly communicating with parent’s of autistic children about what treatment they should use. If this were the case, as a patient information site, the content and approach would be different.

  48. #48 Enhancement to Humanity
    December 7, 2011

    Technically he is right. Anytime someone is right, the media shuns him and he is thrown out of a debate or conference.

    Look what the media did to Ron paul and Herman Cain.

    Can was set up by Rick Perry or some other goon who wanted him out of the race. There is no telling how much money these frauds made from this sideshow that was created by those stupid golddigger women.

    The women who accused cain were questionable at best. One of them even turned out to be a criminal fraud. She had pulled fraud stunts like this before for money. Why did these women wait 15 years to file claims? Why wait until Cain was at his highest political point to file? This was a reasonous move for the person responsible and I hope whoever is responsible gets payback from hell.

    Now back to the silly topic. It is true you can tell if a peron is right or not by how much stifling they get from the media and politcal groups. Almost like a media mafia waiting for someone to open their mouth.

    Remember the BP oil spill? Remember the two guys that were fist fighting the morining of the explosion? I thought not. it was mentioned for five seconds in one NBC broadcast and was never brought up again. It wasn’t BP that was at fault. Some goober did that crap either on purpose or was too busy fighting to watch the pressure gauges and do his job.

    Remember the guy that ran his car on water back in the 1970s? Actually it ran on hydrogen that was created by water. He mysteriously died in that car that completely burned up. A company in Japan has been advertising a car that could procue its own hydrogen. All you had to do was fill the tank with water. Several days later NASA confirmed a HAARP signal, an earthquake hit japan and BOOM – end of company and most of the evidence. Seems controversial, but every time someone gets a car running to where a person can be independent of big government or big business he ends up dead. Conspiracy or truth? Look it up. Even Tesla was assasinated and his inventions remain in a secure military location to this day. So much for freedom.

    So, yes, orac the truth does get covered up most of the time. Cancer was being cured in the 1930s. Yes the one guy with the cure was arrested, his papers confiscated and mysteriously he died of a heart attack the day before he was to be released from prison. How convenient. It happens every single time.

    The one guy that was curing cancer here in the united states had already cured over 100 people without conventional big pharma therapy. When he was threatened by the Fascist Dickhead Aministration he moved to Ecuador where the FDA actually had the balls to follow him and arrest him there. He remains detained indefinitely to this day. I say we break him out and detain the person who gave that illegal order. Legally he had the right to kill his caprors on sight once he was in Ecuador and out of FDA jurisdiction.

    So, with that in mind if you ever discover a cure for a disease you better be a Green Beret becuase the secret police is coming for you. You have every to defend your rights whether it be with a lawyer or a machete.
    When are we going to start fighting back? Never let a dickhead take away the truth. Fight back.

  49. #49 MikeMa
    December 8, 2011

    @ (Hardly) Enhancement to Humanity
    You really need to get back on your meds. The conspiracies are leaking from your brain all over the keyboard and may cause you more problems than just delusions. Yikes.

  50. #50 Lawrence
    December 8, 2011

    Obviously someone has OD’ed on old episodes of the X-Files….

  51. #51 Anton P. Nym
    December 8, 2011

    Look what the media did to Ron paul and Herman Cain.

    Give them a public platform to air their drivel, uncritically, until enough people took a look at the “ideas” and saw how specious and amazingly ungrounded in reality they are? I don’t think “suppress” means what you think it means…

    I think the Onion put it best with their headline, “Rumors Of Extramarital Affair End Campaign Of Presidential Candidate Who Didn’t Know China Has Nuclear Weapons” Perhaps you should seek a better class of martyr to support your complex.

    — Steve

  52. #52 Lawrence
    December 8, 2011

    Agreed – Herman Cain was bound to self-destruct before too long, it just so happens that he can’t keep his hands to himself, so he just went down that much faster.

    As far as Ron Paul – the guy has about 1 good idea in 10, with the other 9 being unpalatable (or just plain crazy) to either Republicans or Democrats. He is probably way too honest to be President anyway.

  53. #53 Beamup
    December 8, 2011

    Cain was an uninformed fool. He destroyed himself by having no understanding of anything related to the job he was trying to get. He had no ideas other than a simplistic tax plan which he never bothered to fully work out, denied the necessary implications of, and had zero chance of becoming law. The fact that anyone took him at all seriously is incredibly frightening, and part of the trend that will (if unchecked) ensure an effective one-party state because the Republicans are busily trying to destroy themselves.

    Paul is just a lunatic. Kind of like EtH.

  54. #54 Chris
    December 8, 2011

    Beamup:

    He had no ideas other than a simplistic tax plan which he never bothered to fully work out, denied the necessary implications of, and had zero chance of becoming law.

    One local radio guy said he was inspired by the 9/9/9 plan from the SIMS computer game.

    It looks like “Enhancement to Humanity” is the crazed morphing troll also known as “Televisionless Conservative”, “Medicien Man”, IM Smart, Doctor Smart, etc. He is good from some amusement, but don’t feed him too much.

  55. #55 Denice Walter
    December 8, 2011

    @ Lawrence:

    Not X-Files. More like NaturalNews ( Greg Caton).

  56. #56 Edith Prickly
    December 8, 2011

    Methinks Enhancement to Humanity needs a better quality tinfoil hat. He can find some tips here: http://berkeley.intel-research.net/arahimi/helmet/

  57. #57 Narad
    December 8, 2011

    Wait, so HAARP can send signals back in time, too?

  58. #58 Yojimbo
    December 8, 2011

    Ain’t nuthin’ HAARP caint do!

  59. #59 Empathy
    December 8, 2011

    “so how does someone like you – who seems to lack any empathy
    and is obviously very arrogant”

    Orac is completely without empathy – if empathy is defined as “willing to stand silently while others endanger children.” Under any more conventional definition of empathy, Orac is full of empathy. You on the other hand – not so much.

  60. #60 lilady
    December 8, 2011

    @ Chris…Ya think? Certainly sounds like the deranged morphing sock puppet.

    Cain declared himself as a candidate on a lark…he wanted to promote a book about his experiences while running for the Presidency. He never contemplated that Perry would self-destruct and that his inane 9-9-9 tax plan would be taken seriously by the Tea Baggers. The definitive book about him and the campaign will be written…not by him…but by Gloria Allred.

    Now the ever faithless historian-cum-lobbyist Newt Gingrich is pulling ahead in the polls…but the fall-back position candidate Mitt Romney will be the nominee.

    BTW, the next Republican candidate’s debate will be on ABC-TV this Saturday evening and I have my TIVO set to record it.

  61. #61 DrDuran
    December 9, 2011

    I have sympathy for your TIVO, hopefully it won’t self destruct in a fit of depression from the multiple black holes of stupid in that debate.

  62. #62 lilady
    December 9, 2011

    @ Dr. Duran: I’ve recorded all the Republican debates…they are the best shows in town. I actually saw in real time Perry’s inability to remember the third department he would eliminate once he won the election. (answer-Department of Energy).

    I also want the historian cum lobbyist Gingrich to explain how he didn’t lobby for Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae through his “Gingrich Group”…he only provided them with the historical perspective of other “real estate bubbles”.

    I have a heavy duty TIVO able to record all the b.s. that emanates from these debates.

  63. #63 Denice Walter
    December 9, 2011

    @ lilady:

    Alright, Superwoman!
    Wow, you actually *watch* the whole thing! I’m impressed.
    I increasingly want to start screaming after about a minute or two so I get my information about what transpired via MSNBC or CNN interspersed with their commentators and hosts, thus significantly upping the realistic person: loon ratio from that of the debates. Although I am vastly tolerant of alt med nonsense this stuff makes me feel upset and later, rather morose. In the past few years, I’ve found myself restricting my travels to areas *not* overly-represented by reasonable factions. Fortunately the NE and CA are relatively moderate-liberal-friendly.

    As an atheist, I never really thought about *guarding* my position but I do now. And I’m a person who “does well” in RL conversations/ interactions- people usually *take to* me.

  64. #64 Prometheus
    December 9, 2011

    “Enhancement to Humanity” (#48):

    “Remember the guy that ran his car on water back in the 1970s? Actually it ran on hydrogen that was created by water. He mysteriously died in that car that completely burned up.”

    Hmmmm. Just like the Hindenburg. Verrrrry suspicious. Does “Enhancement” have a link or citation to that “mysterious accident?

    “A company in Japan has been advertising a car that could procue [sic; "produce"?] its own hydrogen. All you had to do was fill the tank with water. Several days later NASA confirmed a HAARP signal, an earthquake hit japan and BOOM – end of company and most of the evidence.”

    Wow. Beaming 3.6 million watts of HF radio energy into the ionosphere caused an earthquake in Japan? We’d better revisit all we think we know about physics and geology if that’s true.

    “Cancer was being cured in the 1930s. Yes the one guy with the cure was arrested, his papers confiscated and mysteriously he died of a heart attack the day before he was to be released from prison. How convenient. It happens every single time.”

    How convenient that “Enhanced” doesn’t have a name to go with this story, or was his name erased, like they did in Men in Black?

    “The one guy that was curing cancer here in the united states had already cured over 100 people without conventional big pharma therapy. When he was threatened by the Fascist Dickhead Aministration he moved to Ecuador where the FDA actually had the balls to follow him and arrest him there. He remains detained indefinitely to this day.”

    I had no idea that Mike Adams was under arrest!

    I fear that “Enhancement to Humanity” has “enhanced” his thinking with too many psychopharmaceuticals.

    Prometheus

  65. #65 lilady
    December 9, 2011

    Here’s a new one for Denice…I’m a Christian and a left-leaning Democrat. I note that the “up and comer” in the Republican party Jon Huntsman has stated and “tweeted”..”To be clear I believe in evolution and trust scientists on global warming….call me crazy”. If the Party ever returns to moderate politics, I predict that Huntsman will be a real contender for the 2016 election cycle.

    As for me, I’ll be voting outside of my demographic again, for our intelligent, real statesman President.

  66. #66 MartinM
    December 9, 2011

    Sadly, Huntsman recently reversed himself on global warming.

  67. #67 lilady
    December 9, 2011

    @MartinM: I see that when questioned…he did backslide..a bit. He is obviously pandering to the crazies who believe that the “job creators” don’t need additional regulations or cap and trade, interfering with their ability to pollute our environment. This flip-flopping and pandering will be duly noted when he attempts to gain traction for the 2016 nomination.

  68. #68 Beamup
    December 9, 2011

    Personally, I’m in my early 30s and haven’t seen what I would consider a good presidential candidate since I’ve been able to vote. Depressing, really. This time around it looks like the choices will be either some flavor of lunatic, or someone whose heart is in more or less the right place but has all the spine and leadership of an egg noodle. Yuck, but I’ll take the latter given those choices.

  69. #69 lilady
    December 9, 2011

    @ Beamup: I actually e-mailed the White House to tell the President that I wanted him to not negotiate on extension of the Bush Tax Cuts…I don’t want future generations to be saddled with the national debt.

  70. #70 Denice Walter
    December 9, 2011

    @ Prometheus:

    For the un-initiated, we should clarify that he wot was arrested by the FDA** was Greg Caton( see wiki) who “cured” cancer by using chemicals to burn the affected cancerous lesions away. Adams championed his cause: another brave maverick stopped from using un-regulated methods to “heal” people.( a few articles about Caton @ NaturalNews).

    ** Fascist Drug Advocates

  71. #71 lilady
    December 9, 2011

    @ Denice Walter: Greg Caton is now operating out of Guayaquil Ecuador and still shipping his cancer treatments to other countries (not Canada or USA).

    I followed the Wikipedia article to his “story” on Meditopia and he is a certifiable loon.

    BTW, The Donald Trump-moderated Republican debate is set for December 27th. It seems that most of the candidates, with the exception of Gingrich and Santorum, have sent their “regrets” to The Donald.

  72. #72 Prometheus
    December 10, 2011

    Lilady,

    Thanks for the clarification – “Enhancement” isn’t very generous with names, so I had to guess, and the only quack I knew of in Ecuador was Mike Adams.

    “Enhancement” still has the details of Greg Caton’s incarceration wrong; in his rant, he claimed:

    “He remains detained indefinitely to this day.”

    In reality, Mr. Caton was sentenced in May of 2010 to server the remaining 24 months of his probation (the violation of which landed him back in the slammer) in prison. He is therefore not being “detained indefinitely”, rather he has been sentenced to a definite term of incarceration and will be released sometime in May of 2012, about six months from now.

    Of course, I am used to this level of accuracy from the “alternative” medicine proponents, both in the decriptions of their “therapies” and in their personal narratives.

    Prometheus

  73. #73 Monado, FCD
    December 14, 2011

    @62, I doubt Perry realized that the U.S. Dept. of Energy owns all the nuclear fuel and bombs, so he was calling, in effect, for the destruction of the U.S. nuclear arsenal.

    Energy troll: cars can’t run on water. Water is an end product of cumbustion: it takes more energy to pry the hydrogen away from oxygen than you get from recombining them. “Water cars” are a scam in which a car runs briefly on acetone mixed with the water until its engine is destroyed. Please update your fantasies.

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