Respectful Insolence

I’ve been so busy writing about things like Dr. Stanislaw Burzysnki’s highly exaggerated cancer claims, which have become a new favorite topic of mine despite the fact that Dr. Burzynski himself has been plying his “alternative” cancer treatments for over three decades, and one of my long time topics, the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM), that I actually missed a couple of vaccine-related posts that would normally affect me the way catnip affects cats. Also, after two days of doing even longer than the usual Orac-ian screeds, one of which required quite a bit of research, it’s time for a bit of lighter fare.

And, again, the anti-vaccine movement provides.

It’s always mildly embarrassing to me whenever bloggers whose usual areas of interest aren’t the antivaccine movement pick up on a particularly loony bit of anti-vaccine hysteria and are all over it before I am, given that I tend to pride myself on having my finger on the pulse of the anti-vaccine movement to the point where I normally am among the first to pick up on these things. Whether or not that is, in fact, anything I should actually be proud of is, of course, another question. Very long time readers might recall that many years ago (well, more than six, to be precise), I came across a book by an anti-vaccine activist who apparently fancied himself a science fiction writer. I’m referring to the hilarious conspiracy novel The Vaccine Aliens by Ray Gallup, which tells the tale of a father whose child develops autism after (of course!) getting the MMR vaccine and then who later stumbles upon the reason why. It turns out that not only does the MMR vaccine cause autism, but that it’s a plot by shape-shifting aliens to destroy the human race with vaccines. I kid you not. As I so frequently say about the loonier depths of the anti-vaccine movement, you just can’t make this stuff up. At least, I can’t, although apparently people like Ray Gallup can. David Icke, had he known of this novel, would have been proud.

However, camp like The Vaccine Aliens, as hilariously inept as it was, is far more amusing than it is dangerous. No one, not even anti-vaccine activists, takes it seriously, with the possible exception of David Icke, who is a crank that many other cranks like to look down upon in order to reassure themselves that, no matter how little respect they get, at least they’re not as ridiculed as David Icke. What’s not so amusing are books like this one, a children’s book by Stephanie Messenger entitled Melanie’s Marvelous Measles:

i-b066c20c705ad85c7da6343450dce4b8-measles.jpg


The blurb advertising the book reads:

This book takes children aged 4 – 10 years on a journey of discovering about the ineffectiveness of vaccinations, while teaching them to embrace childhood disease, heal if they get a disease, and build their immune systems naturally.

That’s right. What we have here is a children’s book designed to promote anti-vaccine views. Even worse, it explicitly tries to tell children to “embrace childhood disease.” Yeah, I’m sure children with whooping cough who are coughing so hard that they can’t catch their breath for hours on end, with haemophilus influenza type b who develop pneumonia or meningitis, with polio who develop paralysis, or with measles who develop pneumonia or subacute sclerosing panencephalitis will feel happy to “embrace childhood disease,” at least those who don’t end up dead, who can’t embrace anything other than the grave. Too bad such diseases don’t give them a chance to “build their immune system naturally.” As much as people like Messenger might, The Secret-like, wish otherwise, nature doesn’t listen to their fantastical thinking, and microbes that cause vaccine-preventable diseases are not swayed by their wishes.

From my perspective, sentiments like this one, which, deny it as they might, many anti-vaccine parents subscribe two, some of whom will even explicitly admit as much, strike me more than anything else as a twisted misunderstanding of evolution, in which it’s “survival of the fittest” combined with a Nietzschean “that which does not kill us makes us stronger.” This attitude boils down to, in essence: Screw all those other kids who suffer severe complications or even death due to vaccine-preventable diseases! If your child suffers such consequences, he must have been worthless and weak (no doubt thanks to your not using enough woo to “boost his immune system naturally), and maybe surviving a serious disease will make him stronger. Of course, as Christopher Hitchens so eloquently put it recently, the Nietzschean claim that “that which does not kill us makes us stronger” is such utter nonsense that it’s hard to understand why anyone can believe it otherwise. As Hitchens points out using as an example his own esophageal cancer that is not-so-slowly killing him, there “are all too many things that could kill you, don’t kill you, and then leave you considerably weaker.” Several vaccine-preventable childhood illnesses certainly fall into that category. SSPE after measles, for instance.

It’s also hard not to point out here that the very reason that parents of unvaccinated children can get away with not vaccinating and labor under the delusion that their children are so much healthier than vaccinated children (they aren’t) is because nearly everyone else does vaccinate. Herd immunity is a wonderful thing, and many anti-vaccine parents, either knowingly or not, “hide in the herd.” They might not be so blithe about the glories of vaccine-preventable diseases if they actually saw the complications diseases like the measles, pertussis, Hib, and the like, as our grandparents and great grandparents did. Or maybe they wouldn’t. After all, for some of these diseases serious complications are relatively uncommon, with most children surviving the disease with no sequelae, and for those in which such complications are not, think of the “natural immunity” the survivors develop! After all, that which does not kill us makes us stronger, right?

Most of the time, no.

Beliefs that living a healthy lifestyle, getting enough exercise, and taking the right vitamins and supplements will magically render their children “naturally immune” to diseases like the measles, pertussis, Hib, and other vaccine-preventable diseases are the happy delusions (to anti-vaccinationists) that allow the author of this book, Stephanie Messenger, to proclaim things like this:

I have 3 healthy, totally unvaccinated children, who have never had a childhood disease. Unlike their vaccinated friends who have often succumb to the diseases they have been vaccinated against. I kept these children fit and well using what is provided by nature – natural foods, clean water, sunshine, clean air, exercise, adequate sleep and a loving and nurturing environment.

Confirmation bias, much, Stephanie?

Of course, clean water, sunshine, clean air, exercise, adequate sleep, and a loving and nurturing environment are all good things, as far as children’s health goes. No one claims otherwise. They are not, however, enough. Messenger and her children are fortunate enough to live in a population where vaccine uptake levels are high, which is almost certainly the real reason why she’s been fortunate enough that her last three children have not contracted any vaccine-preventable childhood diseases. It’s been pointed out that Messenger is a friend of Meryl Dorey, founder of the rabidly anti-vaccine group, the Australian Vaccination Network and is active in the Australian anti-vaccine movement, having written a book with Dory herself entitled Vaccination roulette: experiences, risks and alternatives.

One aspect of this book that I haven’t seen anyone else touch upon is Messenger’s story as described on her website. To put it briefly, Messenger blames vaccines for the death of her child of a condition that isn’t identified and is unclear. The death of a child is a horrible thing, something no parent should have to watch and no child should have to suffer. Unfortunately, Messenger’s tragedy has led her to become an anti-vaccine activist because, searching for a reason for the death of her baby, she latched on to vaccines as the cause:

This is my journey….

I can’t say I believed in vaccination. I knew nothing about it, but had it done anyway. It’s what you do, right? You do what doctors and baby health clinics tell you and what your parents and the media advise you to do. Well I did it, without so much as a question or thought into it. Within moments of my son receiving his immunisations he was screaming. This continued for most of the day and when he wasn’t screaming he was crying. This was unusual as he was a very happy, placid baby, who was already rolling over at 8 weeks and gooing and gahing at the first sight of his mother. The doctor told me his reactions were ‘normal’ and he’d be OK in a couple of days.

After the first day he had almost recovered with only some irritability and restlessness noticeable. As the weeks passed he continued to reach milestones and all appeared OK.

So notice here that Messenger’s baby appears to have had a mild reaction to a vaccine that lasted a day or two, after which he recovered and continued to reach all of his milestones.

After the next round of vaccinations at four months of age, apparently her son started vomiting and having seizures, after which he began a slow deterioration that ultimately led to his death. it’s a sad story, and it’s hard not to sympathize with Messenger and her child, but let’s not let sympathy cloud our critical thinking skills and lead us to accept her anecdote uncritically or her conclusion that vaccines killed her baby. As is the case with most anecdotes, not enough information is given to let us know what happened. No diagnosis is given, and apparently doctors couldn’t come to a diagnosis. From what I could glean from Messenger’s story, my first thought was whether this child had an inborn error of metabolism of some kind, several of which first manifest themselves in the form of seizures in infancy. Whether that’s what Messenger’s baby had or not, who knows? It might explain why physicians had a hard time diagnosing it. These sorts of disorders are rare causes of seizures and neurologic deterioration, although many of them are associated with seizures. It’s certainly not clear from Messenger’s story whether her baby’s deterioration was cause by vaccines; confirmation bias likely clouds her memory. In any event, she is utterly convinced that vaccines killed her child:

Vaccination killed him, I have no doubt. If he crawled under the sink and drank the same poisonous concoction of heavy metals, formaldehyde, foreign proteins, multiple viruses and a host of other toxins, the emergency room would have called it poisoning. Because it was injected into his body, it’s called ‘a coincidence’! Funny about that, and I have since met many parents with similar stories.

She concludes:

My unvaccinated children are alive and well and my vaccinated child is dead! That’s what I know and live with every day.

Against an emotional response like this, all the skeptics in the world labor in vain. It is about as unlikely that we’ll ever convince Messenger that she is wrong about vaccines as it is that there is a single molecule of a homeopathic remedy being left in a 30C dilution. We can and must, however, combat her message. As sympathetic as we might be about her loss, that loss mustn’t stop skeptics from combatting Messenger’s spreading of anti-vaccine pseudoscience, such as claims that vaccines cause SIDS (they don’t; in fact they are probably protective against it) and flagrant use of the emotional power of her story to convince parents that vaccines killed her child and therefore they should not vaccinate.

The death of a single child, whatever the cause, is a tragedy. If we want to see a lot more of these tragedies, all we have to do is to be complacent and let the vaccination rate fall too far below herd enormity.

Comments

  1. #1 Andy
    December 14, 2011

    You might also be interested in the Woodford Folk Festival saga.

  2. #2 Grant
    December 14, 2011

    Regards “One aspect of this book that I haven’t seen anyone else touch upon”, although it might not be in the blog articles several people have pointed to this in comments in several forums.

    Like you, I thought it was telling. (I didn’t know quite what to say, so I elected to just mention the fact and let people draw their own conclusions, but my thoughts were much the same.)

    @1: There’s a real network of connections, esp. via the Australian AVN group.

  3. #3 Kultakutri
    December 14, 2011

    Oh. My.

    I can’t comment on the death of Ms. Messenger’s baby but this book is, among others, a strange example of irrational hate of trees or else the author and publisher wouldn’t bring themselves to such a waste of good paper.

    Also, I can’t stop thinking that if a baby or toddler sticks their hand in their mouth, or even worse, eats lint or soil or whatever looks interesting enough, they get much worse connoction of foreign proteins, heavy metals, whoknowswhat, viri, bacteria and general dirt, which is probably better than drain cleaner but definitely not worse than a vaccine.

  4. #4 Rebecca
    December 14, 2011

    “And Melanie recovered from her measles with no long-lasting side-effects, as most children do. However, little Louise who lived next door, had leukemia, and wasn’t able to be vaccinated had caught measles from Melanie, and died, because she couldn’t be vaccinated. But Melanie’s mum didn’t care about her, and they all lived happily ever after. Except Louise.”

  5. #5 Christine Bayne
    December 14, 2011

    Hi Orac,

    I covered some of Stephanie’s story at http://www.antivaxxers.com/?p=3725 The point worth noting is that in her book “Vaccination Roulette”, Stephanie does admit doctors suspected her son suffered from Alexander’s disease.

    Also worth noting is that Stephanie admitted in a radio interview that her three healthy children did not have the same father as her son that passed away (which is relevant if looking at a genetic aspect of this condition).
    transcript: http://www.antivaxxers.com/?p=3719

    I do think Stephanie Messenger is totally irresponsible in using her son’s death, from an undiagnosed condition, to encourage other people not to vaccinate.

  6. #6 Adam
    December 14, 2011

    My question to Messenger is did the doctor blame the vaccine or simply say “we don’t know”? If he did blame the vaccine did he file whatever paperwork they must undoubtedly fill to report adverse reactions to drugs? What were the findings?

    I assume in any event there was a postmortem or death cert describing the cause of death. What did that report or cert say?

    And given there are probably hundreds of recognised causes of infant mortality, some of which undoubtedly coincide with developmental milestones, and with the vaccination schedule, why discount all those for vaccination?

    I suspect that the mother in the absence of evidence just latched onto vaccination and that is that. No amount of reason is going to sway her. As for her healthy kids. Lucky her for living in an immunized herd. She’d better hope her message doesn’t prevail because if it does then there will be a lot more grieving mothers and the cause will be far more obvious. Given she accuses the vaccine for killing her child I wonder if she will experience any guilt for deaths caused by people taking her advice.

  7. #7 Lawrence
    December 14, 2011

    Wow – and yet they still claim they aren’t “disease promoters.”

  8. #8 Th1Th2
    December 14, 2011

    Herd immunity is a wonderful thing, and many anti-vaccine parents, either knowingly or not, “hide in the herd.”

    Not to have any hyperlink in that statement is very unusual. Oh I get it. It’s because you don’t know the meaning of what you’re talking about. How wonderful Orac, bravo.

    If we want to see a lot more of these tragedies, all we have to do is to be complacent and let the vaccination rate fall too far below herd enormity.

    Nevermind.

  9. #9 Greenwhat
    December 14, 2011

    It would be wonderful if we could put a stop to this evil book, but as it appears to be self-published and only available from sites associated with the author it seems that there is little that can be done.
    However, on her woo-peddling site http://www.siriushealth.org/?p=520 Stephanie Messenger is promoting the book alongside an image of characters from Sesame Street. I am sure that the makers of this pro-health program would be horrified by this misuse of their creations.
    I have written to the Children’s Television Workshop to alert them of this ghastly promotion, and I am urging everyone to do the same. Perhaps we can see this woman held to account for her (probable) breach of copyright, if not for her much greater crime of wishing harm on children.

  10. #10 Irene
    December 14, 2011

    This kind of stuff makes me mad, really it does. I was lucky enough to be borne in a time and place where childhood vaccines had become routine, or I may not be alive today. I’m one of those with bad genes for natural immunity, apparently. I spent the first 5 or 6 years of my life catching all sorts of serious respiratory infections, flu, bronchitis, etc. And I also suffered from asthma. At least I was spared measles and whooping cough!

    Of course, my mother and grandmother were of a generation who vividly remembered why such vaccines were a boon. My grandparents lost a baby to meningitis. My mother herself nearly died from measles at age two. As it was, it was feared for a time that she would suffer neurological impairment. She had started to talk before the illness, but it took her quite a time after recovery to regain that ability.

    These so-called “benign” childhood diseases can have devastating consequences. A lot more than vaccines.

  11. #11 palindrom
    December 14, 2011

    Rebecca @4 — Black humor at its finest. Brava!

    Irene @10 — The only reason why anti-vaxxers get a shred of traction is because so many of the truly horrible diseases (smallpox and polio come to mind) have been effectively wiped out — by vaccination! If parents lived in fear of polio, or smallpox epidemics swept through every few years killing many and scarring many more, no one would listen to them for even a second. There is great irony in this.

  12. #12 Todd W.
    December 14, 2011

    @palindrom

    The only reason why anti-vaxxers get a shred of traction is because so many of the truly horrible diseases (smallpox and polio come to mind) have been effectively wiped out — by vaccination! If parents lived in fear of polio, or smallpox epidemics swept through every few years killing many and scarring many more, no one would listen to them for even a second. There is great irony in this.

    I’m not so sure. As long as there have been vaccines, people have rebelled against them. Even during the smallpox epidemic that swept through the country in the early 20th century wasn’t enough to keep quite a few people from speaking out against the vaccine.

  13. #13 dwest
    December 14, 2011

    @Th1Th2: Where is your hyperlink discounting herd immunity, as you imply in your response? Your name would lead one to believe you have some knowledge of the immune system. Perhaps you could share it?

  14. #14 palindrom
    December 14, 2011

    dwest @13 — Providing sustenance to creatures that live under bridges should probably be discouraged. The only possible positive result would be awakening this particular creature’s (hilarious) bot from its slumber. Sort of like awakening Godzilla.

  15. #15 Raging Bee
    December 14, 2011

    I’m beginning to suspect that a large part of the whole antivax campaign is fueled by an instinctive drive, unconscious, unacknowledged and unspoken, to strengthen the species and weed out “weaklings.” I’m not sure how one would go about verifying this, but since humans have shown such desires many times before in history (from Sparta to Nazi-style eugenics), I think it’s quite plausible to think the same animal-level instinct (protect the tribe by casting off the weakest offspring) could be at work here.

  16. #16 Denice Walter
    December 14, 2011

    Actually, I might have written a story myself about my own bout with the “marvelous measles” if I could remember what happened but I can’t.

    I was scheduled for the new measles vaccine but couldn’t get it because I got the measles first. I *do* recall being forbidden to write, read, or draw and having to stay in a darkened room. That’s about it. My much older cousins inform me that I was out of school for several weeks ( 4?) and that all of the adults were worried about me especially my vision. Pretty marvelous.
    At any rate, woo-meisters are aiming their mis-educational material at younger people… and not just Ms Messenger** but the usual suspects as well( and AoA has Jake representing the next generation) . They would like their alternative media outlets to be available to those in college and younger students as well to provide necessary balance – incorporating alt med ideas into the curriculum if possible. Start them off right. Naturally.

    Which gets me to other news:
    AoA is bubbling like a cauldron about an LA Times story ( which you should read…the story, not necessarily AoA) and ARI announces that its 2012 conference will be held in April at the airport. In Newark, NJ. At the airport.

    @ NaturalNews today, Mike Adams tells us why his followers should not leave the US before it totally collapses into a heap of abandoned homes, gang-ruled suburbs, and food shortages ( I wonder if he read too much Cormac MacCarthy), revealing his past adventures and why he just *loves* Texas.
    I seriously doubt that I could make up stuff as ridiculous as this if I tried for hours and was paid real money for it.

    **( and we should all restrain ourselves from jokes playing upon her name. I certainly have.)

  17. #17 Travis
    December 14, 2011

    Greenwhat,
    Wow, that site is really unprofessional. They seem to hold the very common belief that if you find a photo on the internet you can assume it is in the public domain. Or perhaps they will fall back on everyone’s second choice when caught infringing, that they can use it as it falls under the doctrine of fair use/dealing. Most look like stock photos but I have to wonder if they are using them under the correct terms considering that some of them are simply linked via Google images. The Sesame Street one is just asking for trouble.

  18. #18 Ren
    December 14, 2011

    Linked to my name below is my suggestion for an alternate cover of her book. I had nothing to do with it, and neither did my employers (yes, plural), if anyone asks.

  19. #19 daedalus2u
    December 14, 2011

    Why not call it what it is, snuff porn.

    Doesn’t using children in snuff porn amount to child pornography?

  20. #20 Julie
    December 14, 2011

    Now this is interesting;

    “In 1988, the UK began the country’s first mass measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) immunization program with a vaccine that the National Health Service knew to be defective. Canada suspended the vaccine’s license in 1987 due to adverse events, and a number of other countries also raised serious concerns about the vaccine’s safety.

    Science be damned. The UK introduced the defective Urabe strain MMR vaccine and the program was a disaster. Thousands of British children suffered severe adverse reactions, and the government denied the damage.

    Unknown to the public, UK regulators had indemnified at least one pharmaceutical company, the UK producer of the Urabe MMR, from civil lawsuits. The government itself, and its regulators, were on the hook for the foreseeable damage. What was already a public disaster had the potential of turning into a personal one for health officials at the highest level.

    The cover-up is often worse than the crime. So it was here. Health officials could not admit the vaccine was defective. Doing so would nail the government for millions of dollars in liability and expose the dirty little “indemnity” secret regulators had so generously given the UK manufacturer.

    The dam of denial seemed to be holding until Dr. Wakefield published a study suggesting a possible link between the MMR vaccine, bowel disease, and autism. Wakefield’s paper created a firestorm. And he wouldn’t shut up. Wakefield was in the papers, he was on TV, he was all over the place cautioning parents about the risk of the MMR.”

    Now we know why he had to be professionaly destroyed.

  21. #21 Marina
    December 14, 2011

    Good grief.

  22. #22 Calli Arcale
    December 14, 2011

    This is the book my husband got for our kids. It was one he’d read as a child, and was absolutely thrilled to find still available:
    http://www.amazon.com/Value-Believing-Yourself-Pasteur-Valuetales/dp/0916392066

  23. #23 MikeMa
    December 14, 2011

    Julie,
    Wakefield was struck off for fraud. He was far from destroyed sadly as his fraud has led to a great deal of suffering.

  24. #24 Ali in Ottawa
    December 14, 2011

    Am I the only parent that threw up a little just looking at that book’s cover? My immunized child had a “mild” case of bronchilitis (it was mild, she wasn’t hospitalized, she was only 8 months old at the time) and has had two ear infections (only one requiring abx and it was after she turned 5) and a few small viruses and colds here and there. She’s avoided measles, chicken pox, flus, dipthetia, tetanus, HIB, polio, pertussis, mumps and rubella thanks to immunization programs.

    I’m sorry if the author list her child, it’s awful and tragic. However, indoctrinating children into not vaxxing is dangerous and disturbing (I also hate when PETA try to indoctrinate kids with their Propoganda).

  25. #25 Perplexed
    December 14, 2011

    @20
    Verbatim quote from AoA? Good source.
    The reason Wakefield lost his medical license is because his research was fraudulent, unethical and lead to the death and disability of unvaccinated children.

  26. #26 LW
    December 14, 2011

    Um, Julie, I believe that your extensive medical education should have alerted you to the fact that the Urabe strain was a strain of *mumps* and that Wakefield asserted a damaging effect of *measles*. Also, that the Urabe strain of *mumps* was associated with meningitis whereas Wakefield asserted that *measles* caused ongoing infection in the gut.

    However, I’ll grant that *mumps* and *measles* do both start with “m” and they are both in the MMR vaccine.

  27. #27 Science Mom
    December 14, 2011

    Shockingly, Julie’s uncited drivel is from Ed Arranga and AoA. Not your own work Julie and certainly unsourced by Arranga.

  28. #28 Karl Withakay
    December 14, 2011

    “I have 3 healthy, totally unvaccinated children, who have never had a childhood disease.”

    Yea for heard immunity! This, or course, has nothing to do with whether it’s better to get a disease or to be vaccinated against it.

    “Unlike their vaccinated friends who have often succumb to the diseases they have been vaccinated against.”

    Has she really seen a lot of measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, and/or pertussis in vaccinated children? I have only been aware of 1 person I have personally known getting any of these diseases. (One adult co-worker contracted pertussis a few years ago.) My generation coincided with the introduction and general use introduction of the MMR vaccine. (DTP was already fairly well established before we came along.)

    As a kid, I used to watch reruns of shows like The Brady Bunch and Leave it to Beaver and wonder I never knew anyone who got diseases like measles or mumps that those shows made seem common.

    Today, I know why that is: vaccination.

  29. #29 Julie
    December 14, 2011

    Well excuseeeeeeeeeee me! Now, did the British government really start the MMR vaccination program with a vaccine that had already been banned in Canada?

  30. #30 lilady
    December 14, 2011

    @ Christine Bayne: Thanks you so much for linking the two websites about this anti-vax woman.

    It turns out that she is a pathological liar about her child’s genetic condition…he died due to a genetic degenerative leukodystrophy…either Alexander disease or another type of this deadly genetic disease.

    I actually know parents whose children were born with…and who died from…types of leukodystrophies (adrenoleukodystrophy and Canavan disease).

    IMO, it takes a particularly warped individual who lies about her deceased child’s disease to gain notoriety within the anti-vax movement. She deserves our scorn for her activities.

  31. #31 Edith Prickly
    December 14, 2011

    @Julie

    Now, did the British government really start the MMR vaccination program with a vaccine that had already been banned in Canada?

    Care to expand on that? I’m a lifelong resident of Canada and this is news to me. BTW, links to anti-vaxx crank sites like AoA don’t count.

  32. #32 Perplexed
    December 14, 2011

    @29
    Canada had suspended distribution at the time, but other countries had not and continue to use it to this day arguing that the greater efficacy offsets the slightly greater risk of adverse events (mainly seizures). It would seem that the simplest conclusion is that Urabe is more like wildtype mumps and less attenuated than the alternative. So more like that nice natural mumps virus that never hurt anyone. Aside from the pain and occasional meningitis or sterility. In any event, as mentioned above, it is entirely unrelated to autism or Wakefield’s “research”. The measles component worked and works very well. And doesn’t cause autism.

  33. #33 Edith Prickly
    December 14, 2011

    Ah – is this what you’re talking about? http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/media/advisories-avis/_2007/2007_169-eng.php

    I note that it was a temporary suspension involving three specific lots of vaccine, which is not a “ban” and therefore does not support your completely fallacious argument. Andrew Wakefield is a fraud who was rightly stripped of his medical license for professional misconduct, and who bears a great deal of responsibility for the resurgence of measles outbreaks in the UK. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13378119

  34. #34 Anton P. Nym
    December 14, 2011

    Well excuseeeeeeeeeee me!

    I know I should address Julie’s misapprehensions with factual corrections rather than focus on trivia, but others have already called out enough holes in her points to show that they don’t hold water. So I’ll allow my pet peeve off the leash for a moment.

    How does one verbally draw out a silent “e”? If you try, you just get a big pause between “excuse” and “me”. If you really want to “sound” like a teen rolling his/her eyes, you need to draw out the “u” and go “excuuuuuuse me!”

    Yeah, petty, I know; but miscommunication (in particular the inability to manipulate the phonetic aspect of our alphabet well) just bugs the heck outta me.

    — Steve (Who grew up reading “Don Martin’s Sound Effects” in Mad Magazine collections and saw how this could be done extremely effectively.)

  35. #35 LW
    December 14, 2011

    Now, did the British government really start the MMR vaccination program with a vaccine that had already been banned in Canada?

    Here’s a point that antivaxxers seem to miss. Deciding what vaccine to use, or even whether to vaccinate for a given disease at all, is a matter of balancing risks and benefits. The higher the risks — of catching the wildtype disease, or of suffering severe illness or death if it is caught — the higher the acceptable risk from the vaccine itself.

    So, for instance, some countries use the live polio vaccine, whereas the U.S. uses the inactivated polio vaccine. This is not because those other countries are evil or have been bribed to poison their citizens for the greater glory of Big Pharma; it’s because the risk of a polio outbreak in those countries is so much higher that the higher risks of the live vaccine are justified.

    So with the Urabe strain. Its risks may be greater than the risks of other strains but, as Perplexed noted, it is also more effective.  The British government faces a different pattern of risk from the Canadian government (every government faces its own unique pattern of risks) and it weighed the risks and benefits of the Urabe strain differently for a few years. That doesn’t, in and of itself, prove that either government was right or wrong.

    And, as noted previously, dragging Wakefield in as proof of a conspiracy to conceal the risks of the Urabe strain is beyond ignorant and into the laughably idiotic range.      

  36. #36 lilady
    December 14, 2011

    @ Greenwhat: Following your excellent suggestion, I have just emailed a short note to the folks at Sesame Street at sesameworkshop.org/inside/contact

    “I just wanted you to know that “Sesame Street” is being used to promote an anti-vaccination book…”Melanie’s Marvelous Measles”.

    The author of the book is a woman who has gained some notoriety within anti-vaccination circles, by claiming that her child died as a result of vaccines. She has plans to write other books for children about the “evils” of vaccines, thus undermining public health initiatives to protect children from serious, often deadly vaccine-preventable diseases.

    This woman’s book is presently being discussed on science-based medicine blogs and I expect that the folks at Sesame Street will put a stop to her linking the Sesame Street characters with this dreadful book.

    Sincerely,

    (lilady) R.N., BSc-Nursing

  37. #37 Todd W.
    December 14, 2011

    Another little tidbit that anti-vaccine types tend to forget or ignore about Wakefield’s little collection of non-sequentially referred cases, is that the type of MMR the children received differed. Some had the MMR with Urabe mumps strain vaccine, while others had the Jeryl Lynn mumps strain vaccine.

    Interesting, though, that the crowing about Wakefield went from “he found that MMR causes autism because of the measles component” to “he never said anything about MMR causing autism” to this new implication that “he blew the lid off the danger of the mumps component of the MMR and so had to be silenced!”

    The writers at AoA can go through more contortions than a professional circus act.

    (And on a side note, Julie, when quoting something that someone else wrote, it is considered proper etiquette to provide a citation. That way, the original author gets proper credit, and everyone else reading it knows where to go to see the original text.)

  38. #38 LW
    December 14, 2011

    “Unlike their vaccinated friends who have often succumb[ed] to the diseases they have been vaccinated against.”

    Usually, “succumb to disease” means “die of disease”, but I’m assuming she didn’t actually mean that.

    My guess is that, to the extent that there is any reality behind this statement at all, the “diseases” in question are the flu. And it is true that people vaccinated against flu do sometimes catch it anyway. Just not as frequently or severely as people not vaccinated against it.

  39. #39 Jud
    December 14, 2011

    A book with “Marvelous Measles” in the title, asking children and their parents to “embrace childhood disease,” is I think obviously idiotic enough all by itself to persuade fence-sitting parents to have their kids vaccinated.

    Re the website, there must be some corollary to crank magnetism that causes these folks to think copyright laws are for other people.

  40. #40 JohnV
    December 14, 2011

    Maybe this is an idea for her followup: “Embracing the asphalt, why seat belts take all the fun out of life.”

  41. #41 LW
    December 14, 2011

    Re: embracing childhood disease.

    I am told I had the measles as a small child, though I have almost no memory of it; I remember looking through the screen door and wishing I could go out to play, which is probably a memory of that illness. A woman that I was peripherally acquainted with much later, who was my age (our birthdays were within a week of each other) and who had measles about the same time probably doesn’t remember the joys of measles either. That’s because she suffered brain damage from measles, ending up blind, mostly deaf, and severely mentally handicapped, so that she spent the rest of her life in an institution.

    I trust this book properly celebrates the joys of blindness, deafness, and brain damage.

  42. #42 Rory
    December 14, 2011

    @41, LW, I sort of think most of what the anti-vax movement does celebrates the joys of brain damage.

  43. #43 Yojimbo
    December 14, 2011

    One of my earliest vivid childhood memories is of panic – coughing so hard you literally can’t take a breath must be similar to drowning. Why a parent would want their child to experience that when there is an alternative is beyond me.

  44. #44 Dianne
    December 14, 2011

    My unvaccinated children are alive and well and my vaccinated child is dead!

    If her son did indeed die of an inborn error in metabolism, then this is dumb luck twice over: first because they have so far not died of vaccine preventable illness, second because they didn’t inherit the inborn error in metabolism that killed the one child. It may be that a specialist could determine whether Ms. Messinger is a carrier for any of the known genes for inborn errors in metabolism. For the sake of her grandchildren, she should pursue this and not simply stick to her comfortable denial.

  45. #45 lilady
    December 14, 2011

    @ Dianne: According to Christine Bayne’s post above, the author stated previously that her child’s physicians believed the child had a form of leukodystrophy (Alexander disease) that is caused by a de novo gene mutation.

    The NINDS (National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke) website has an informative web page devoted to Alexander Leukodystrophy.

    The author has younger children from a different father and her “children” are all in “their twenties”…so the child who allegedly died from vaccines would have been 30 years old or thereabouts. The parents whose children died of leukodystrophies that I personally know, were provided with the specific leukodystrophy that their children were afflicted with…more than thirty years ago.

    The woman is a pathological liar who is totally unaware that she is “on record” with the opinions of her child’s medical specialists.

  46. #46 missmayinga
    December 14, 2011

    I kept these children fit and well using what is provided by nature – natural foods, clean water, sunshine, clean air, exercise, adequate sleep and a loving and nurturing environment.

    As opposed to vaccinating parents, who, as we all know, keep their children locked in dusty basements, and feed them a diet of Red Bull and Cheetos.

  47. #47 Dianne
    December 14, 2011

    Thanks, lilady. I missed Christine Bayne’s comment earlier.

    I wonder if she, like some parents of children with autism, is trying to avoid the conclusion that her child had a genetic disorder for whatever reason. I’m not sure I understand this reaction, but it seems to occur fairly frequently and is unfortunate for all the reasons pointed out here.

  48. #48 Poopsie
    December 14, 2011

    Edith @ 33, I think Julie is refering to this. Do you folks know if this paper has been retracted, censored, retracted, pulled or banned yet. It seems to be even more damaging than Wakefield’s paper.

    Pediatrics­. 1998 Mar;101(3 Pt 1):383-7.

    Acute encephalop­athy followed by permanent brain injury or death associated with further attenuated measles vaccines: a review of claims submitted to the National Vaccine Injury Compensati­on Program.

    Weibel RE, Caserta V, Benor DE, Evans G.

    Source: Division of Vaccine Injury Compensati­on, National Vaccine Injury Compensati­on Program, Health Resources and Services Administra­tion, Public Health Service, Rockville, Maryland 20857, USA.

    RESULTS: A total of 48 children, ages 10 to 49 months, met the inclusion criteria after receiving measles vaccine, alone or in combinatio­n. Eight children died, and the remainder had mental regression and retardatio­n, chronic seizures, motor and sensory deficits, and movement disorders. The onset of neurologic signs or symptoms occurred with a nonrandom, statistica­lly significan­t distributi­on of cases on days 8 and 9. No cases were identified after the administra­tion of monovalent mumps or rubella vaccine.

    CONCLUSION­S: This clustering suggests that a causal relationsh­ip between measles vaccine and encephalop­athy may exist as a complicati­on of measles immunizati­on.

  49. #49 Lawrence
    December 14, 2011

    Not mine – but it needed to be reposted……

    From the same article quoted by Poopsie:

    “Nevertheless, with a denominator of 75 000 000 vaccinees throughout 23 years, the incidence of acute encephalopathy caused by measles vaccine in this cohort can reasonably be described as very low.”

    and

    “Postinfectious encephalopathy complicates approximately 1 in 1000 cases of natural measles and results in a mortality rate of 10% to 20% and permanent central nervous system impairment in the majority of survivors.”

    Citing an incidence of 48 out of 75,000,000 without noting the incidence of encephalopathy of 1/1000 (75,000 out of 75,000,000) after natural measles disease reflects either innumeracy or propaganda. This is the wrong audience, Jerry;

    By the way, if you got an MMR, you might be one of the lucky 74,952. I hope any children under your care are so lucky.

  50. #50 LW
    December 14, 2011

    Come to think of it, while children are embracing the joys of childhood diseases, why shouldn’t they embrace the joys of *mild* strains of those diseases — the ones used in live-virus vaccines, for a randomly chosen example.

  51. #51 Bronze Dog
    December 14, 2011

    I don’t know whether to be amused or horrified that they’ve stopped trying to dodge the “pro-disease” label.

  52. #52 Krebiozen
    December 14, 2011

    Julie #20,

    Urabe mumps vaccine causes mild meningitis in “between 1 case per 900 doses in 1 prefecture of Japan to 1 case per 62,000 doses in Canada and 1 case per 120,000 doses in France”. It is, however, up to 75% effective in outbreak conditions. Other vaccine strains, such as Rubini, are safer, but don’t work, and their use led to outbreaks of mumps. The only vaccine strain currently used in the USA, Jeryl Lynn, is both safe and effective. I think that’s called ‘progress’. PMID: 17638194

    Mumps itself causes cerebrospinal fluid pleocytosis in 50%, orchitis/epididymo-orchitis in up to 30% (of males, obviously), meningitis in 10%, oophoritis in 5%, pancreatitis in 4% and acute unilateral deafness in 0.005% of sufferers. PMID: 18928441

    Give me Urabe vaccine over mumps any day.

  53. #53 rw23
    December 14, 2011

    @Yojimbo #43:

    One of my earliest vivid childhood memories is of panic – coughing so hard you literally can’t take a breath must be similar to drowning. Why a parent would want their child to experience that when there is an alternative is beyond me.

    I agree. Whooping cough at the age of five is one of my first, and worst, childhood memories.

    But on the plus side, I’ve never eaten fish or gravy since!

  54. #54 DLC
    December 14, 2011

    Well, I like faith healing, because it never changes!
    It’s been the same since Jesus!
    Oh wait. . . it doesn’t work, does it?
    Well, there’s a down-side to everything.
    As for Vaccinations . . . clearly they have changed since they first started appearing , therefore they must not be reliable. . . /creationist logic

  55. #55 brian
    December 14, 2011

    @48

    Poopsie, rather than being “damaging,” the paper you cited simply demonstrates that science marches on. It happens that the encephalopathy that sometimes occurs following vaccination is explained by (usually de novo) mutations in the genes for neuronal ion channels, which was first reported several years following the publication of Weibel’s article and then affirmed by extensive additional work from independent groups of investigators. The Weibel article has been frequently cited by anti-vaccine activists who seem to have learned of it by reading wacky web sites rather than by keeping up with the literature, which includes these more recent publications:

    Reyes IS, Hsieh DT, Laux LC, Wilfong AA. Alleged Cases of Vaccine Encephalopathy Rediagnosed Years Later as Dravet Syndrome. Pediatrics. 2011 Aug 15.

    Tro-Baumann B, von Spiczak S, Lotte J, Bast T, Haberlandt E, Sassen R, Freund A, Leiz S, Stephani U, Boor R, Holthausen H, Helbig I, Kluger G. A retrospective study of the relation between vaccination and occurrence of seizures in Dravet syndrome. Epilepsia. 2011 Jan;52(1):175-8

    McIntosh AM, McMahon J, Dibbens LM, Iona X, Mulley JC, Scheffer IE, Berkovic SF. Effects of vaccination on onset and outcome of Dravet syndrome: a retrospective study. Lancet Neurol. 2010 Jun;9(6):592-8

    Wiznitzer M. Dravet syndrome and vaccination: when science prevails over speculation. Lancet Neurol. 2010 Jun;9(6):559-61.

    Note, too, that the nonsensical assertion that in more than 80 cases the NVICP has quietly compensated cases of vaccine-induced autism is similarly explained by genetic channelopathies such as Dravet syndrome, which Dr. Dravet noted is often accompanied by the development of autistic traits as well as encephalopathy and/or seizures following months of apparently normal development:

    Dravet C. Dravet syndrome history. Dev Med Child Neurol. 2011 Apr;53 Suppl 2:1-6

    Wolff M, Cassé-Perrot C, Dravet C. Severe myoclonic epilepsy of infants (Dravet syndrome): natural history and neuropsychological findings. Epilepsia. 2006;47 Suppl 2:45-8

    Mice and rats that carry such mutations also develop seizure disorders following a period of normal development, although rodents do not generally receive pediatric vaccines.

  56. #56 lilady
    December 14, 2011

    @ poopsie: “Do you folks know if this paper has been retracted, censored, retracted, pulled or banned yet. It seems to be even more damaging than Wakefield’s paper.”

    I just knew I heard that phrasing that “poopsie” used… before on a RI Blog.

    This is my reply to “Polly” who used that phrasing with the same redacted study:

    @ Polly: which sites have you been visiting that provided you with that “edited” article from Pediatrics Journal…or did you do your own paste up job? The real abstract is available at:

    Pubmed 9481001

    The article which Polly (deliberately?) misquoted omitted the dates of the study of the 48 children in the “Methods” section. The dates were 1970 – 1993 inclusive…a total of 23 years.

    Polly also misquoted the “Conclusions” section by (deliberately?) omitting two key words: Per the Pubmed abstract, “Conclusions” are:

    “The clustering suggests that a causal relationship between measles vaccine and encephalopathy MAY exist as a RARE complication of measles immunization”.

    Polly asks, “Orac, has this study been retracted, debunked, censored, banned, villified, etc. just like Wakefield’s? If not, when”

    Polly both the actual study and the deliberately edited study that you provided have been totally disproved in a study published in Pediatrics 2002 Nov (5): 957-63…also available in abstract form at:

    Pubmed 12415036

    Let me provide you with a few details. Hospital registry discharges of 535,544 children ages 1-7 who had received MMR vaccine within the three months prior to hospital admission, were reviewed by Finnish researchers. The period of study is November 1982 – June 1986.

    Conclusions: “We did not find any association between MMR Vaccine, encephalitis, aseptic meningitis or autism.”

    If you truly are an interested parent, you should be upset that you were provided with a deliberately edited abstract. And, no need to thank me for providing you with the two correct abstracts.

    Posted by: lilady | May 3, 2011 3:52 PM (“Progress mixed with hype in personalized medicine”-Respectful Insolence, May 3, 2011)

  57. #57 lilady
    December 14, 2011

    BTW, trying “copying and pasting” the statement on any search engine “has this study been retracted, debunked, censored, banned, villified, etc. just like Wakefield’s? If not, when”…for loony anti-vax Bingo.

  58. #58 Chris
    December 14, 2011

    Julie, you need to get some facts straight. Also learn to find information on your own, that way you can tell if you are being lied to. Especially about the validity of anything done by Wakefield. Here is some light reading about the Urabe mumps strain:

    Vaccine. 2007 Mar 30;25(14):2742-7. Epub 2006 Jan 31.
    A comparative study of the incidence of aseptic meningitis in symptomatic natural mumps patients and monovalent mumps vaccine recipients in Japan.

    Am J Epidemiol. 2007 Mar 15;165(6):704-9. Epub 2007 Jan 4.
    Risks of convulsion and aseptic meningitis following measles-mumps-rubella vaccination in the United Kingdom.

    Vaccine. 2006 Nov 30;24(49-50):7037-45. Epub 2006 Jul 5.
    Mumps vaccine virus strains and aseptic meningitis.

    J Infect. 2005 Nov;51(4):294-8. Epub 2004 Nov 5.
    Comparative efficacy of Rubini, Jeryl-Lynn and Urabe mumps vaccine in an Asian population.

    Rev Panam Salud Publica. 2002 Oct;12(4):240-6.
    An evaluation of the adverse reaction potential of three measles-mumps-rubella combination vaccines.

    Acta Paediatr Jpn. 1996 Jun;38(3):205-11.
    Adverse events associated with MMR vaccines in Japan.

    Lancet. 1993 Apr 17;341(8851):979-82.
    Risk of aseptic meningitis after measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine in UK children.

    Oh, and it was the Urabe mumps strain that caused a slight increase in aseptic meningitis. It is why the UK dropped the Urabe strain MMR vaccines from their list of approved vaccines in 1992. But in 1998 Wakefield told parents without any evidence to use single vaccines. But there were no approved single mumps vaccines in the UK, so some enterprising folks imported them from elsewhere. Turned out to be Urabe strain, which prompted this notice (sorry about the all CAPS, it is like that in the document):

    MEDICINES CONTROL AGENCY TO OBJECT TO IMPORTATION OF UNLICENSED SINGLE URABE STRAIN MUMPS VACCINE

    Poopsie, here is some reading for you (in addition to the stuff that was posted above):

    Vaccine. 2011 Nov 12. [Epub ahead of print]
    Lack of association between childhood immunizations and encephalitis in California, 1998-2008.

    Pediatrics. 2010 Jun;125(6):1134-41. Epub 2010 May 24.
    On-time vaccine receipt in the first year does not adversely affect neuropsychological outcomes.

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006 Sep;25(9):768-73.
    Encephalopathy after whole-cell pertussis or measles vaccination: lack of evidence for a causal association in a retrospective case-control study.

    J Infect Dis. 2005 Nov 15;192(10):1686-93. Epub 2005 Oct 12.
    Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis: more cases of this fatal disease are prevented by measles immunization than was previously recognized.

    J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S69-77.
    Acute measles mortality in the United States, 1987-2002.

  59. #59 Matthew Cline
    December 14, 2011

    This book takes children aged 4 – 10 years on a journey … while teaching them to embrace childhood disease,

    I remember getting chicken pox as a child. It certainly wasn’t “marvelous”, and it would have been impossible to get me to “embrace” it.

  60. #60 Krebiozen
    December 14, 2011

    Chris,
    As I recall, there was UK public money from the Legal Services Commission that could have been spent on getting compensation for children who were actually damaged by the Urabe MMR vaccine. Instead it was spent on a wild goose chase after the measles component – £3,442,668 mostly to doctors and lawyers, including £439,553 to one Andrew Wakefield…

  61. #61 marty
    December 14, 2011

    I have 3 healthy, totally unvaccinated children, who have never had a childhood disease. Unlike their vaccinated friends who have often succumb to the diseases they have been vaccinated against.
    I’ve wondered about this bit. If in fact her children aren’t vaccinated, and they associate with “their vaccinated friends”; and their “vaccinated friends” catch the diseases such as Mumps, Rubella and Measles… then wouldn’t these lucky children also catch the diseases?

    Herd immunity would only go so far as to reduce the chance of exposure, wouldn’t it?

  62. #62 Matthew Cline
    December 14, 2011

    @marty:

    If in fact her children aren’t vaccinated, and they associate with “their vaccinated friends”; and their “vaccinated friends” catch the diseases such as Mumps, Rubella and Measles… then wouldn’t these lucky children also catch the diseases?

    These disease don’t have a 100% infectivity rate, so exposure wouldn’t be guaranteed to infect them. None of the unvaccinated children catching any of the diseases would still be unlikely, though.

  63. #63 Chris
    December 14, 2011

    Krebiozen:

    Instead it was spent on a wild goose chase after the measles component – £3,442,668 mostly to doctors and lawyers, including £439,553 to one Andrew Wakefield…

    Who then announced to the public that they should get single vaccines, without any real evidence. It was not in the paper he was touting, nor in any research that he has revealed.

    So they went and got single vaccines, including illegally imported single mumps vaccines with the dreaded Urabe strain (see link I posted).

  64. #64 Krebiozen
    December 14, 2011

    Chris,
    You couldn’t make it up…

  65. #65 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    December 14, 2011

    Herd immunity is a wonderful thing, and many anti-vaccine parents, either knowingly or not, “hide in the herd.”

    Not to have any hyperlink in that statement is very unusual. Oh I get it. It’s because you don’t know the meaning of what you’re talking about. How wonderful Orac, bravo.

    You know, Thingy, in spite of all the stupefyingly idiotic things you say on this forum, I think the most idiotic is your constant refrain of “herd immunity is a myth”. Herd immunity is not a “myth”, a medical discovery, or a scientific theory; it’s simple arithmetic, of exactly the same form as calculating critical mass in a block of fissionable material.

    Please go to Hiroshima and tell them there’s no such thing as supercritical mass (sufficient unvaccinated to enable exponential spread). I’m sure they’ll be glad to hear it. Just as the crewmen of the Enola Gay would have been distressed to hear there’s no such thing as subcritical mass (sufficient vaccinated people to cause spread of any disease to damp down towards zero).

    If you’re correct about critical mass being a myth, we wasted 50 years worrying about the constant threat of nuclear annihilation—what a buncha maroons we were—right, Thingy?

  66. #66 Jennifer Hansen
    December 14, 2011

    I live in a small island town in Alaska. Just offshore is another, smaller island, that used to be the place where sick children went for quarantine. One summer I helped gather rotting wooden grave markers from the disused cemetery. Each little spruce plank contained a name, two dates, and the name of a disease, nearly all of which are routinely prevented by vaccination these days. Some of the dead were toddlers. Some were infants.

    One died of whooping cough at the age of 18 days. These days herd immunity would almost certainly have saved his life even though the first whooping cough vaccine is typically given at two months.

    18 days old. The way the disease runs, he probably caught it at birth from someone close to him who had it.

    Whooping cough. The one where you cough yourself to death. What kind of damn fool risks doing that to a helpless subject?

  67. #67 herr doktor bimler
    December 14, 2011

    “that which does not kill us makes us stronger”

    That which does not kill me usually gives me a terrible hangover the next morning.

  68. #68 Simon Clendon
    December 14, 2011

    A link to buy the dreadful book has been posted on the New Zealand anti-vaxer site http://www.ias.org.nz/. Amazingly, the IAS is a registered charity in New Zealand working for the health and well being of children(!). I have lodged a complaint to our Charities Commission suggesting they have the registration removed.

  69. #69 Mu
    December 14, 2011

    That which does not kill me usually gives me a terrible hangover the next morning.
    My worst nightmare: Hangover persists through death

  70. #70 Th1Th2
    December 14, 2011

    The Very Rev,

    You know, Thingy, in spite of all the stupefyingly idiotic things you say on this forum, I think the most idiotic is your constant refrain of “herd immunity is a myth”. Herd immunity is not a “myth”, a medical discovery, or a scientific theory; it’s simple arithmetic, of exactly the same form as calculating critical mass in a block of fissionable material.

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/11/picking_up_ones_marbles_and_going_home.php#comment-5986344

    I’ll be surprise if Orac has any article of him discussing herd immunity.

  71. #71 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    December 14, 2011

    So, Thingy, say it: Say “Critical mass is a myth”. That is exactly the same thing as saying “Herd immunity is a myth”. Say it so we can ridicule you some more!

  72. #72 Anton P. Nym
    December 14, 2011

    Let’s face it; Thingy is a textbook crank. (Search “Crank (person)” in Wikipedia and marvel at how closely the criteria list matches up. Also, Orac’s mentioned in the article by name regarding the etymology of “crank magnetism”.)

    I think approaching Thingy on that basis (foil-hatted Time Cuber, not a troll looking for a heated response for giggles or the attention) may show better results than we’ve seen before. Alas, this still won’t drive too many bats outta that belfry…

    — Steve

  73. #73 Denice Walter
    December 14, 2011

    Messenger’s book targets children age 4-10. Alt med pied pipers would adore having teen aged and college fans, casting out their facebook and twitter nets to haul in younger followers and angling for influence in school curricula. AoA’s rising star Jake is enrolled in a grad school. Which leads me to ask:

    How does this all play out in a standard classroom? An indoctrinated 12 or 16 year old questions the teacher about his/ her “orthodox views” on vaccines or a college/ grad student harangues his/her profs like a mad thing? Consider the possibilities for massive time wasting.

    Now I realise that many of the younger students exposed to this type of propaganda are probably home-schooled or placed in a health freedom friendly or alternative school but *eventually* they will wind up matriculating somewhere- not everyone can be a self-taught revolutionary of science *a la* Mike Adams. I mean seriously… even if they are planning on becoming chiropractors- they will have to study bio, physio, anatomy, statistics *somewhere* with average students and normal professors and thus be rudely introduced to the real world of science….I don’t want to sound cruel but I find this hilarious. I know, I know: I should have a heart and pity the poor people ( the average students and the normal professors, that is).

  74. #74 lilady
    December 14, 2011

    Please do not feed delusional, disease-promoting, uneducated, health care professional wannabe troll. It needs “terminal disinfection.”

  75. #75 ChrisKid
    December 14, 2011

    I wonder if Julie, by way of AoA and Ed Arranga, picked up that idea about the Urabe strain mumps vaccine from the Man himself. It’s given a whole chapter in Callous Disregard, with the claim that the UK’s Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation deliberately ignored, or even hid, information about that vaccine and insisted on using it in their program.
    “…it was the insights provided by George’s disclosures that were, in part, my motivation to fight for a safety first vaccine policy. This story highlights so many of the problems within the UK’s vaccine politburo…”
    (Don’t you love the implications in that description?)

  76. #76 Gregory Lynn
    December 14, 2011

    How quaint, a children’s book designed to kill children.

  77. #77 Chris
    December 14, 2011

    Except the timeline is a bit screwed up to try and pin it on a the Joint Committee and Immunisation. For one thing, the MMR vaccines containing the Urabe strain were removed in 1992, and Wakefield was approached by a lawyer in 1996.

    Oh, and of course, you will notice that one paper I listed is from 1993. Yeah, it was a big bad secret hidden away in the scientific literature for all to see.

  78. #78 Emily
    December 14, 2011

    I find this post very surprising! I personally believe that people should have the right to decide for themselves if vaccines are the path that they want to take. I also feel that it is fine for people to share their views with others, but using children to get people to stop receiving vaccines seems underhanded to me. In a way, Stephanie Messenger was smart because if all children stop using vaccines, eventually vaccines will die out altogether. However, if a child is read/reads this book and their parent wants the child to receive vaccines, Messenger is just causing problems for the parent. At a young age, children (approximately between ages 0-12 or older)should not be making their own decisions about vaccinations. Kids may not even fully understand what a vaccine is. For example, many of the children I babysit for tell me how much they hate shots, so if they were given the option, they would not get vaccinated purely because they don’t like needles. “Melanie’s Marvelous Measles” would just cause more crying, but ultimately the child would still receive the vaccine. If Messenger was just trying to spread her opinion, it would have made more sense for her to write a book or even just a paper explaining her opinion, not a children’s book.
    As for the part of the article about the death of the child: this seems weirdly vague to me. There is no way that someone can draw a conclusion as serious as “vaccines can kill” just because their child had received vaccines and then died for unknown (undiagnosed) reasons.
    Overall, Messenger’s book seems immoral. Drawing conclusions and trying to influence children just causes problems and unhappy people of all ages. In no way does this book seem to be improving society.

  79. #79 adelady
    December 14, 2011

    Australia has yet more wondrous offerings. Meryl Dorey’s at it again. http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3731884.html

    Good to see the way the comments go. I might add the great lady herself turns up about a third of the way through the comments. Predictably, “vaccines cause autism” and other assorted gems. Though I didn’t know this other stuff she didn’t mention, (I’d never, ever go to her website myself.)

    “1) HIV/AIDS does not exist.
    2) Swine flu was engineered by the World Health Organisation  to cull the population.
    2) The Illuminati plan to implant mind control chips, distributed by chemtrails from planes with the aim of committing mass genocide by vaccination.

    Unfortunately I am not making this up. It’s all in her AVN blog.” See Brad @ 15 Dec 2011 11:26:24am

  80. #80 idlemind
    December 15, 2011

    Mind control chips from contrails? That’s two absurd conspiracy theories rolled into one! Amazing…

  81. #81 LW
    December 15, 2011

    “Swine flu was engineered by the World Health Organisation  to cull the population.”

    Effective, wasn’t it?

  82. #82 Matthew Cline
    December 15, 2011

    Meryl is also an HIV/AIDS denier, claiming that since (in her opinion) no two images of HIV look the same, therefore it can’t exist. [source]

    Oh, you gotta be kidding me.

  83. #83 Andreas Johansson
    December 15, 2011

    Here’s a point that antivaxxers seem to miss. Deciding what vaccine to use, or even whether to vaccinate for a given disease at all, is a matter of balancing risks and benefits.

    It’s a common trait among wooey people to refuse to, or to be unable to, think in terms of relative risk, or even in terms of probability at all. Everything has to be black or white, safe or OMFGtoxic!, entirely correct or diabolical falsehood.

  84. #84 Ajax
    December 15, 2011

    If you can’t survive measles, you can’t survive the Apocalypse. 8/

  85. #85 Homeopathetic
    December 15, 2011

    I had to have a relatively minor medical procedure this week and was moaning about the inevitable discomfort. A colleague next to me at work suggested a dose of ‘rescue remedy’ might be helpful. When I stated very sharply that I don’t believe in homeopathy, she looked at me gormlessly and said, “So you don’t believe in nature then?”

    What’s it got to do with nature? Why are people so dumb? You’ll all be glad to know I got through, with a little help from my favourite remedy: water with a memory of grape in a 750ml bottle!

  86. #86 Melski
    December 15, 2011

    I have had measles, mumps, chicken pox etc and I have been immunized… My cousins were not immunized and didn’t get any of these diseases…. HMMMM, SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT….

    Hands up if you were immunized and yet still got a childhood disease?

    Here is the thing, the comments in this thread are from people who are obviously into their science, one would assume intelligent people… but the bagging out and picking on grammer and demeaning other people ifor their views etc is a pretty bullyish response to something they don’t agree with.

    Has any one of the people here who disagrees with Ms Messengers message called and spoken to her, asked her a question, sought to understand her perspective and Sought to give her theirs? has anyone raised their concerns in a rational way or has everyone hidden themselves behind a moniker and just decided to fling crap…. ? Just asking?

    We all do our best to teach our children not to bully, not to be one dimensional and not to treat people badly because of their beliefs, so what makes it ok as adults….?

    My belief is freedom of choice…. If you don’t want to prick your children, don’t, if you want to give them the book, give it to them, if you don’t, then don’t. Ms Messenger has given you the choice, you don’t have to take it AND if you all feel safer due to a vaccine , then what are you so worried about anyway…? Has herd immunization led to herd mentality?

  87. #87 Renate
    December 15, 2011

    Perhaps because you endanger your child and other children, by not vaccinating them.

  88. #88 puppygod
    December 15, 2011

    My belief is freedom of choice…. If you don’t want to prick your children, don’t, if you want to give them the book, give it to them, if you don’t, then don’t.

    If you want to drive on the left-hand side of the road, then do. At least until you crash head-on into first car.

    Freedom of choice argument is only valid as long as your choice doesn’t infringe rights of the others. Choice to not vaccinate endangers directly and actively health and life of the other people. It’s a fact. Your belief can’t change that. If you choose not to vaccinate, we have all rights to call you upon what your choice really is – immoral, stupid and outright dangerous decision.

  89. #89 Rebecca
    December 15, 2011

    At least it seems that the anti-vaxers are admitting that their ideas fall firmly into the category of “fiction”. There’s this as well…

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2011/12/vaccine-nation-amazon-books-legal-thriller-best-seller-by-david-lender.html

  90. #90 Renate
    December 15, 2011

    Freedom of choice can be used to defend a lot of things, including things that are nowadays frowned upon. Freedom of choice sometimes has negative consequences for others. With vaccination, it’s children who pay the price for not being vaccinated. With alternative cancercures, it might be the people (other than the person wanting to try this cure) paying for it, or who are lured into it, because of the miracle stories.

  91. #91 TBruce
    December 15, 2011

    I have had measles, mumps, chicken pox etc and I have been immunized… My cousins were not immunized and didn’t get any of these diseases…. HMMMM, SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT….

    I’m thinking about it, all right. I think you’re full of shit.

  92. #92 Adam
    December 15, 2011

    @Th1Th2, herd immunity is such an incredibly simple concept to understand that pretending not to understand it or making unreasonable demands of evidence just make you look like a fool.

  93. #93 Mrs Woo
    December 15, 2011

    I think what infuriated me just as much was the instructions she posted on the website, which are textbook cult indoctrination – parents to read the book repeatedly to the child for several weeks, then once per week for several months, then put up, then get out again and start with the repeatedly (daily) several weeks….

    The poor things would have this hammered so deeply into their psyche that, short of developing one of those illnesses themselves and realizing how terrible it can be, or having their own child die in their arms from it, it is possible that they might never even consciously consider the question rationally. They would just “know” that measles and the outcome from it is “much” better than getting the vaccine.

  94. #94 Anton P. Nym
    December 15, 2011

    @ Metski (#86)

    We all do our best to teach our children not to bully, not to be one dimensional and not to treat people badly because of their beliefs, so what makes it ok as adults….?

    Because freedom of religion does not extend to allowing people to light bonfires in their backyards upwind of neighbor’s cedar-shake roofs either. Vaccination against childhood illnesses is not a decision to protect one’s children or not; it’s a decision to protect many children or not, thanks to the dynamics of herd immunity. If vaccination rates drop low enough, the diseases will return (as have measles and pertussis in some areas of North America) and thanks to the vagaries of individuals’ immune systems it will strike those who chose to protect themselves.

    This is no more (or less) an issue of freedoms than any other law that covers public health measures… and I wonder if people would be quite so quick to defend a family that refuses to use public wastewater facilities and just flings the contents of bedpans out their windows like their ancestors did.

    — Steve

  95. #95 Antaeus Feldspar
    December 15, 2011

    @Th1Th2, herd immunity is such an incredibly simple concept to understand that pretending not to understand it or making unreasonable demands of evidence just make you look like a fool.

    The last time I tried to explain herd immunity to Thingy, spelling out how it would work with any modality that induced sufficient disease resistance in a sufficient percentage of the population, even if that modality was not vaccination, she claimed it was a “wrong hypothetical situation” because it did not talk about “a thing that is just as BAD as the vaccine.”

    I’m not sure it’s possible for Thingy to look more of a fool than she already does.

  96. #96 LW
    December 15, 2011

    “I have had measles, mumps, chicken pox etc and I have been immunized… My cousins were not immunized and didn’t get any of these diseases…. HMMMM, SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT….”

    Were you immunized against *those* diseases before you got them? It used to be quite common for someone to be “immunized” — meaning against smallpox, polio, and DPT, and still catch the others you mentioned because no vaccines existed against them.

    If you were immunized against all of them and got them anyway, then I’d think that your immune system is unable to mount a proper response, and you could only be protected against these diseases if they were unable to get near you. In other words, you could only be protected by the herd immunity effect, which appears to have protected your cousins.

    Thank you for illustrating its importance.

  97. #97 Th1Th2
    December 15, 2011

    Adam (from the Garden of Eden),

    @Th1Th2, herd immunity is such an incredibly simple concept to understand that pretending not to understand it or making unreasonable demands of evidence just make you look like a fool.

    I always knew herd immunity was a Creationist’s idea.

  98. #98 LW
    December 15, 2011

    Thingy, don’t be silly.

  99. #99 Anton P. Nym
    December 15, 2011

    I’m not sure it’s possible for Thingy to look more of a fool than she already does.

    Antaeus, you really shouldn’t be making those sorts of challenges to a crank who is all too willing to clear any such bar… (viz comment #97)

    — Steve

  100. #100 Th1Th2
    December 15, 2011

    Antaeus,

    The last time I tried to explain herd immunity to Thingy, spelling out how it would work with any modality that induced sufficient disease resistance in a sufficient percentage of the population, even if that modality was not vaccination, she claimed it was a “wrong hypothetical situation” because it did not talk about “a thing that is just as BAD as the vaccine.”

    Of course, it’s bad, very, very bad. You’re an infection promoter for crying out loud. Somehow having resistance to disease is not synonymous to vaccine-induced infection. If you want to resist getting infected, then don’t take it, don’t expose yourself intentionally. As simple as that.

    If herd immunity is indeed true then why would Orac write an article criticizing a “natural” modality that would definitely “induce sufficient *disease resistance* in a sufficient percentage of the population, even if that modality was not vaccination”? Because Orac knows nothing about herd immunity. It’s a constrictor knot, the more he tries to explain it, the more he’ll choke. Of course, he’s choking now.

    * will be determined on subsequent exposure or re-infection

  101. #101 Militant Agnostic
    December 15, 2011

    The Illuminati plan to implant mind control chips, distributed by chemtrails from planes with the aim of committing mass genocide by vaccination.

    How the hell is that supposed to work? How do the mind control chips get implanted. With the his distribution system and the failure of the Swine Flu to depopulate the world, I am starting to really wonder about the Illuminati. How did people/lizards who are so incompetent get control of the Secret World Government. On the other hand an all powerful cabal of idiots would explain a lot, especially the response to AGW (especially in Canada and the US.

    I suspect Meryl Dorey will continue to exhibit increasing signs of a serious mental illness.

  102. #102 Freedom of Choice
    December 15, 2011

    >My belief is freedom of choice…. If you don’t want to >prick your children, don’t, if you want to give them the >book, give it to them, if you don’t, then don’t.

    Absolutely! My belief is freedom of choice – if driving sober is so safe, why do you care if I drive drunk? Hmmm! Makes you think, doesn’t it?

  103. #103 lilady
    December 15, 2011

    @ Melski: Have you read her interviews…including the one where she mentions that the consensus of her deceased child’s doctors, was the child was born with a genetic degenerative leukodystrophy, that caused the child’s death?

    Why don’t you contact her to tell her that “lilady” called her a pathological liar…make sure to invite her here to defend her work of fiction.

    Oh, by the way, do you want all of us to forget our science backgrounds and praise her. Ain’t gonna happen.

    Please don’t feed delusional, etc., etc., etc.

  104. #104 TBruce
    December 15, 2011

    If you want to resist getting infected, then don’t take it, don’t expose yourself intentionally. As simple as that

    You’re all about “simple”. Your get-rich scheme would be “Need Money? Go to the bank and get some more. As simple as that.” Your safe driving advice would be “Don’t hit other people. Don’t let other people hit you. As simple as that.”

    Yeah, broke the rule about feeding stupid, boring and insane troll. Must resist.

  105. #105 Th1Th2
    December 15, 2011

    LW,

    In other words, you could only be protected by the herd immunity effect, which appears to have protected your cousins.

    Herd immunity + herd effect = herd immunity effect

    Probably the effect of reading to much Creationist books. Now I see why it’s a “simple arithmetic”.

  106. #106 Denice Walter
    December 15, 2011

    Notice that those who rail against vaccines often use the Nirvana fallacy ( if it’s not perfect, it’s useless) and other forms of black-and-white thinking as well as illustrating an inability to easily weigh costs to benefits.

    Similarly HIV/AIDS denialists ( as mentioned above) look at issues like how the virus *appears* or if it was ever *seen* or *photographed* as proof/disproof of its existence. One of the most telling objections they use is that the virus *causes* many conditions how could that *possibily* occur? OK. They are not able to compute that a single cause ( virus) can knock out a single system ( immunity) that prevents many diseases. Opportunistic illnesses point to dysfunction of immunity.

    So the objections usually don’t show the highest levels of abstract thought- what usually begins to develop in adolescence and continues throughout early adulthood- exactly coincidental to the ages where more advanced science is taught. To be perfectly honest, not all people will ever achieve what is called “formal operational thought”. However I seem to recall that getting some of these concepts across is indeed possible if approached in the right way. People can understand concepts like these. I think that woo-meisters and denialists capitalise on their audiences’ *inabilities* and bank on them rather than directly addressing that inability and partially dis-mantling it through cautiously targetted education.

  107. #107 LW
    December 15, 2011

    Thingy, how old are you?

    (Sorry, lilady.)

  108. #108 Denice Walter
    December 15, 2011

    … I have a comment in moderation about thinking processes used by anti-vaccinationists and HIV/AIDS denialists….

    For your further reading “pleasure”, adult fiction section, David Lender has a new “legal thriller” called “Vaccine Nation”**( @AoA amongst other creative efforts) which details the adventures of a documentary film maker hot on a trail of vaccine sculduggery and evil pharma powers ( Hmmm.. sounds lke RI).

    ** wonder if the Null-meister will sue over the book’s title.

  109. #109 Th1Th2
    December 15, 2011

    Steve,

    If vaccination rates drop low enough, the diseases will return (as have measles and pertussis in some areas of North America) and thanks to the vagaries of individuals’ immune systems it will strike those who chose to protect themselves.

    How to Debate a Creationist for the Dummies, this way please ——http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/11/picking_up_ones_marbles_and_going_home.php#comment-5986344

    http://www.jstor.org/pss/3582376

  110. #110 lilady
    December 15, 2011

    Please don’t feed delusional, etc., etc., etc.

  111. #111 Jennifer Hansen
    December 15, 2011

    That which does not kill us makes us stronger

    That which does not kill us kills the very young, the very old, the immunocompromised, and the ones who are already sick with something else. That which does not kill us or them still leaves people with damaged hearts and lungs.

    My belief is freedom of choice….

    Your freedom of choice is not freedom to decide whether or not I should run the risk of getting sick.

  112. #112 Jennifer Hansen
    December 15, 2011

    That which does not kill us makes us stronger

    That which does not kill us kills the very young, the very old, the immunocompromised, and the ones who are already sick with something else. That which does not kill us or them still leaves people with damaged hearts and lungs.

    My belief is freedom of choice….

    Your freedom of choice is not freedom to decide whether or not I should run the risk of getting sick.

  113. #113 Mu
    December 15, 2011

    I always thought the whole anti-vax idiocy was a new development, but wired.com has an interesting article on the history of mandatory vaccinations, and how the SCotUS decided the issue over 100 years ago.
    http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2009/12/dec-15-1827-boston-schools-require-vaccination/
    Thingy and co, riding against windmills for nearly 200 years and counting.

  114. #114 lurker
    December 15, 2011

    Stephanie was wise enough not to have her other children immunized. Her
    pediatrician denied a link to the vaccines given at 4 months old. How many
    other pediatricians deny links?
    Her son was eventually diagnosed with a wheat allergy-The Hep B vaccines are
    made using baker’s yeast which is contained in many wheat products.
    The studies from Children’s Hosp on their Vaccines-Yeast Allergies page references
    list 5, the most recent one 1998. Hardly reasuring.
    http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/hot-topics/yeast-allergies.html

  115. #115 Narad
    December 15, 2011

    Her son was eventually diagnosed with a wheat allergy-The Hep B vaccines are
    made using baker’s yeast which is contained in many wheat products.

    OMG! You’ve cracked the code! Think about it: salt is contained in many peanut products!! Therefore, exposure to saline can cause serious reactions in those who will later develop peanut allergies!!!

  116. #116 Heliantus
    December 15, 2011

    @ Lurker

    Her son was eventually diagnosed with a wheat allergy-The Hep B vaccines are made using baker’s yeast which is contained in many wheat products.

    Now wait a minute pal.

    I’m willing to stand corrected if proved otherwise, but then someone says “wheat allergy”, I understand “allergy to one or more molecules from wheat”.

    Not from yeast. That would be “yeast allergy”.

    Yeast production doesn’t use wheat products, as far as I know. Most likely corn sugar.
    And yeast is not “contained”. It’s purposedly added to wheat flour to create wheat products.

    For that it’s worth, a quick look at Wikipedia doesn’t say otherwise.

    In short, citations needed, lurker. Plenty of. For the diagnosis, and for the relationship between Saccharomyces cerevisiae (a.k.a. baker’s yeast) and wheat allergy.

  117. #117 Science Mom
    December 15, 2011

    Stephanie was wise enough not to have her other children immunized. Her
    pediatrician denied a link to the vaccines given at 4 months old. How many
    other pediatricians deny links?
    Her son was eventually diagnosed with a wheat allergy-The Hep B vaccines are
    made using baker’s yeast which is contained in many wheat products.

    Oh, do you have access to Ms. Messenger’s infant’s medical records? Or is it you are just another wilful idiot who believes everything you read on the interwebz because it massages your confirmation bias? Gosh, which one would it be?

  118. #118 Pinkamena, Panic Pony
    December 15, 2011

    For the “freedom of choice” idiots out there in all things, a question: Why is YOUR freedom more important than mine? Why is your freedom to do things, even if they endanger me, a higher priority than my freedom to be safe from your lunacy? Why should I be forced to shoulder the burden of your risky behavior while I can never be allowed to limit you in the name of my safety?

    Answer me that.

  119. #119 Prometheus
    December 15, 2011

    “That which does not kill us makes us stronger.” Nietzsche

    Unless, of course,it merely cripples us for life. Like measles does to about 0.2% of people who get it. And none of the pro-natural-disease advocates who cite that quotation bother to discuss the corollary:

    “That which does kill us makes us dead. Permanently”

    Which is what happens to about 0.1% of people who get “natural” (wild-type) measles.

    By way of comparison, measles vaccine leaves people permanantly disabled about 0.00005% of the time (or less) and leaves them permanently dead less than 0.00001% of the time.

    Prometheus

  120. #120 BB
    December 15, 2011

    “Unlike their vaccinated friends who have often succumb to the diseases they have been vaccinated against”

    Where does this nutter live that so may children succumb to diseases they’ve been vaccinated against???

  121. #121 Anton P. Nym
    December 15, 2011

    Her son was eventually diagnosed with a wheat allergy-The Hep B vaccines are
    made using baker’s yeast which is contained in many wheat products.

    Not to mention all that dihydrogen monoxide found in wheat products… which is also added to vaccines, come to think of it. Great Scott, stop the presses!

    — Steve

    PS: in case of doubt, yes, I’m rolling my eyes… lurker is basically claiming that since both bread and beer have yeast in them, both can make you drunk. (So why can’t we get a buzz off of our shots?)

  122. #122 Mrs Woo
    December 15, 2011

    Perhaps, M. Lurker, you should change your name; you aren’t lurking very well at all.

  123. #123 lurker
    December 15, 2011

    You do realize that many of you are so pro-vax that you are just as fanatical
    as the anti-vax. My grandparents told no horror stories of vaccine related
    illnesses, they said it was a rare occurence. My parents said they had chicken
    pox, german measles and mumps and hardly remember them like everyone
    else in their school. I was vaccinated in 1970 and later according to whatever
    schedule was available and am very healthy.
    What vaccine preventable epidemics have occurred since 1970 in the US that I’m not aware of. I am aware of an autism epidemic that no one ever heard of when I was
    growing up.

  124. #124 dean
    December 15, 2011

    ” I am aware of an autism epidemic that no one ever heard of when I was
    growing up.”

    which(even if one agrees with your unjustifiable use of the word epidemic, which one shouldn’t) is completely unrelated to vaccinations.

  125. #125 mark
    December 15, 2011

    Someone needs to take Marvelous Melanie on a walk through an old cemetery, and wait for her to ask why so many children are buried there.

  126. #126 Narad
    December 15, 2011

    My parents said they had chicken
    pox, german measles and mumps and hardly remember them like everyone
    else in their school.

    Everyone has heard this moronic retort already. Let’s get back to this yeast-wheat faster-than-light communication idea of yours.

  127. #127 lurker
    December 15, 2011

    @mark-
    What century are you talking about? Take a look at the VAERS reports of the last 20 years. You are brainwashed about disease rates of the past 30 years and the
    necessity of all those vaccines needed to be given in the first 2 years of life.

  128. #128 Narad
    December 15, 2011

    Take a look at the VAERS reports of the last 20 years.

    Howsabout you summarize the findings of your careful analysis? What’s that? Saying “VAERS” is where it starts and ends?

  129. #129 herr doktor bimler
    December 15, 2011

    Wikipedia on VAERS:
    A 2006 article in Pediatrics found that most VAERS reports related to thimerosal, and many related to autism, were filed in connection with litigation, leading the authors to caution that inappropriate reliance on VAERS data may be a source of bias. The study’s lead author stated: “Lawyers are manipulating this system to show increases [in vaccine-related adverse events] that are based on litigation, not health research.”[4]

  130. #130 Dianne
    December 15, 2011

    My grandparents told no horror stories of vaccine related
    illnesses, they said it was a rare occurence

    Mine did. At least, they didn’t tell them as “horror stories”, just as facts of life in the early 20th century: everyone got measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc and some died of it. I have a vague memory of a mention of small pox as a dreaded disease as well, but don’t remember what exactly was said about it, i.e. if the stories about small pox were first or second hand.

    I am aware of an autism epidemic that no one ever heard of when I was growing up.

    That’s because when you were growing up they called the kids who sat in a corner and stared at things, periodically threw tantrums, and didn’t talk “retarded” rather than “autistic” and the kids who talked but had weird sensitivities and didn’t seem to get social things “geeks” rather than “aspies”. The “autism epidemic” is an epidemic of diagnostic substitution and recognition of mild illness rather than a true increase in incidence.

  131. #131 lurker
    December 15, 2011

    Quote from Children’s Hosp-
    “By the mid-1980s, there were seven vaccines: diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, measles, mumps, rubella and polio. Because six of these vaccines were combined into two shots (DTP and MMR), and one, the polio vaccine, was given by mouth, children still received five shots by the time they were 2 years old and not more than one shot at a single visit.”
    “Since the mid-1980s, many vaccines have been added to the schedule. Now, children could receive as many as 24 shots by 2 years of age and five shots in a single visit. The result is that the vaccine schedule has become much more complicated than it once was, and children are receiving far more shots than they ever did”
    Why? What justified this increase? Perhaps clever marketing and fear mongering by Big Pharma?

  132. #132 Dangerous Bacon
    December 15, 2011

    lurker: “My parents said they had chicken
    pox, german measles and mumps and hardly remember them like everyone else in their school.”

    I had those diseases as well as “regular” measles, and I remember being miserably sick (especially with measles and mumps). I don’t wish them on any children today. My parents raised their first children in an era when polio fears were justifiably widespread, especially in summertime, and were tremendously grateful when polio vaccine became available.

    Those who do not remember history, etc.

  133. #133 Narad
    December 15, 2011

    Why? What justified this increase? Perhaps clever marketing and fear mongering by Big Pharma?

    So, that’s it? You just make one pointless assertion and, when questioned, pretend it never happened and substitute another one?

  134. #134 Yojimbo
    December 15, 2011

    Why? What justified this increase? Perhaps clever marketing and fear mongering by Big Pharma?

    Of course. It couldn’t possibly be because research and experience showed it was better for public health. What we knew in 1980 is all we’ll ever need to know…

  135. #135 lurker
    December 15, 2011

    Narad-Citations please

  136. #136 Narad
    December 15, 2011

    Narad-Citations please

    For what?

  137. #137 Gray Falcon
    December 15, 2011

    Lurker, if you make an accusation, it’s up to you to back it up. Simple as that.

  138. #138 lurker
    December 15, 2011

    Narad-make sure you are up to date on all your shots. Your comments are toxic enough. Please don’t infect any more.

  139. #139 Science Mom
    December 15, 2011

    So, that’s it? You just make one pointless assertion and, when questioned, pretend it never happened and substitute another one?

    Of course, it’s in their playbook.

  140. #140 Todd W.
    December 15, 2011

    @lurker

    What justified this increase?

    Umm, just taking a guess here, but perhaps it was scientific advances leading to the development of new vaccines that could protect children against a wider range of illnesses?

  141. #141 Narad
    December 15, 2011

    Narad-make sure you are up to date on all your shots. Your comments are toxic enough. Please don’t infect any more.

    What part of “for what” in response to “citations please” do you not understand?

  142. #142 Calli Arcale
    December 15, 2011

    lurker:

    Narad-make sure you are up to date on all your shots. Your comments are toxic enough. Please don’t infect any more.

    That’s all you got, when asked to back up your claims? Telling, that is.

    (I’m up to date on my vaccines, for what it’s worth. Even got updated on MMR after my first pregnancy. Very important for women of childbearing age.)

  143. #143 Krebiozen
    December 15, 2011

    Hardly anyone dies after hurtling through their windshield in car crashes anymore. So why do we still need air bags and seat belts?

  144. #144 Krebiozen
    December 15, 2011

    Also, one of my favorite graphs that is worth a thousand words.

  145. #145 Chris
    December 15, 2011

    lurker:

    . My parents said they had chicken
    pox, german measles and mumps and hardly remember them like everyone else in their school.

    I bet Roald Dahl’s oldest daughter would like to have a memory of measles, but she can’t. Do you know why?

    lurker, you have so far in your last comments shown you are ignorant of:

    1. Baking yeast bread, it seems you do not know yeast and wheat are not the same thing. Why do you think they are sold in separate containers? Just because they are on the same grocery aisle does not mean they are made of the same stuff.

    2. Basic statistics, and why this makes VAERS reports in their raw form useless. Self selected surveys are not terribly accurate.

    3. That meningitis is something that should be prevented, which is why there is a Hib vaccine.

    4. That children with chronic hepatitis get liver cancer and die young, which is why there is a hepatitis b vaccine.

    5. That being sick with dozens of open sores is both painful, and a way to get a secondary bacterial infection, which is why there is a varicella vaccine.

    6. That having a toddler with over a week of diarrhea is not healthy, and has caused those children to end up in the hospital with dehydration, seizures and even death. Which is why there are rotavirus vaccines.

    7. That some vaccines are no longer given to children. Are the following on the pediatric schedule (and I was given all of these as a child): smallpox, typhus and typhoid?

    Now, lurker, if you have any actual evidence that the Hib, HepB, varicella and rotavirus vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases just post the title, journal and date of the articles that support your fear of those vaccines.

  146. #146 puppygod
    December 15, 2011

    lurker, could you stop yours Gish-gallop for a minute and address any of the points you were called on? I’m especially interested in the yeast-wheat allergy relationship.

  147. #147 Heliantus
    December 15, 2011

    @ from the lurker

    Narad-Citations please

    Eh, let me unplug my irony meter before saying things like that! Ah, too late.

    So, what about this allergy diagnosis and that yeast-triggered wheat allergy? Any citation?

    As a sidenote,

    My grandparents told no horror stories of vaccine related illnesses

    Neither did mine. No horror story related to vaccines. Oh, you mean horror stories on illnesses for which there is a vaccine now? This, they had.

    My parents said they had chicken pox, german measles and mumps and hardly remember them

    Good for them. I gave mumps to my dad. We certainly remember it.

    and hardly remember them like everyone else in their school.

    If it didn’t happen to me or to one of the 20 people I know, it didn’t happen to anyone else.

    I was vaccinated in 1970 and later according to whatever schedule was available and am very healthy.

    So did I and so I am. So what?

  148. #148 Anton P. Nym
    December 15, 2011

    What vaccine preventable epidemics have occurred since 1970 in the US that I’m not aware of.

    http://www.cdc.gov/pertussis/outbreaks.html
    http://www.cdc.gov/mumps/outbreaks.html

    I’ll leave it at that for starters… piling on more links is more likely to trigger the Mod Squad, anyway, but there are plenty over on the CDC web site.

    — Steve

  149. #149 dejlah
    December 15, 2011

    105: //Herd immunity + herd effect DOES NOT EQUAL herd immunity effect

    Probably the effect of reading TOO MANY books ON CREATIONISM. Now I see why it’s “simple arithmetic”.//

    Grammar books are your friend. If I believe in science and vaccines, in what universe would I believe in creationism?

  150. #150 Anton P. Nym
    December 15, 2011

    What vaccine preventable epidemics have occurred since 1970 in the US that I’m not aware of.

    Alas, my answer post is tied up by moderation probably because of links… but browsing over the CDC website picked up several covered by even the 1970s vaccine schedule, in communities that shun shots.

    — Steve

  151. #151 Vicki
    December 15, 2011

    Lurker–

    By definition, any data you collect by asking people about their childhood diseases are self-selected, because you cannot survey the graveyards and will have a lot of difficulty surveying people whose illnesses left them severely handicapped.

  152. #152 Katy
    December 15, 2011

    This isn’t the first time I’ve heard of people being against vaccinations, but it’s certainly the first I’ve correct, we always need to be careful with how we are influencing impressionable, younger generations.

    Personally, I’ve always thought vaccines are a good thing, a step forward for mankind that helps prevent deaths from formerly fatal diseases all around the world. However, I have heard stories of people (like Messenger) who say that vaccinations had harmful affects on them, for example, Desiree Jennings, the cheerleader who claimed that her flu shot made her develop Dystonia. Even so, I have heard hundreds more stories of how vaccinations have benefited people. I get my flu shot every year, as well as countless other vaccinations, and I have never once questioned their usefulness.

  153. #153 Narad
    December 15, 2011

    If I believe in science and vaccines, in what universe would I believe in creationism?

    Th1Th2 seems to be in pretty serious decline. The text “/creationist logic” didn’t even occur in the remark to which it first replied, but then it just decided to roll with it. This desperation dovetails fairly intuitively to me with its recent attempts to harp on herd immunity/effect and polio serology, in both of which items I suspect it detects a whiff of an opportunity for a game of semantic hide-the-sausage of the sort upon which it originally built its reputation.

  154. #154 Prometheus
    December 15, 2011

    Katy (#150):

    “…Desiree Jennings, the cheerleader who claimed that her flu shot made her develop Dystonia.”

    Funny thing about Desiree… she had the type of “dystonia” that went away when she was walking or running backwards or when she spoke with a fake Aussie accent. In other words, she had the type of “dystonia” that nobody in the world has ever had or seen before (or since).

    Ms. Jennings’ story is even better than Lurker’s story of how “yeast” caused a wheat allergy. However, no matter their literary and entertainment value, neither story is true.

    Prometheus

  155. #155 Chris
    December 15, 2011

    Prometheus:

    she had the type of “dystonia” that went away when she was walking or running backwards or when she spoke with a fake Aussie accent.

    And later it only appeared when there was a television news camera in the vicinity.

  156. #156 TBruce
    December 15, 2011

    Th1Th2 seems to be in pretty serious decline.

    Probably advanced neurosyphilis. Too bad there isn’t a vaccine for it.

  157. #157 Denice Walter
    December 15, 2011

    @ TBruce:

    Neurosyphilis? Wasn’t that what Nietzsche had?
    -btw- glad to learn that Hitchens dislikes that quote as much as I do.

  158. #158 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    December 15, 2011

    Herd immunity + herd effect = herd immunity effect

    Probably the effect of reading to much Creationist books. Now I see why it’s a “simple arithmetic”.

    Great, Thingy—disprove the arithmetic. (snerk!) Your Fields Medal awaits. (You are under 40, right?) You can rid the world of a tremendous threat as well: You will simultaneously prove that there’s no such thing as critical mass—it’s impossible to assemble a piece of 235U or 239Pu so small that it won’t explode! No more threat of nuclear war. Please, get out your crayons and enlighten us!

  159. #159 Melski
    December 15, 2011

    If you really believe vaccines work, use them. I dont understand how they can claim to work if people still get the diseases…. And if you are using them then what are you worried about anyway?

    How on earth can anyone think it is alright for them to decide what should be injected into my body?
    Either they work or they don’t… ?
    Has there ever been a time in science when people have scientifically got it wrong?
    Thalidomide , anyone?

    The majority of minds here seem made up, unable to listen to others perspective and politely respond… SO DISAPPOINTING.

    Ask yourself what values you have that make you hold on for dear life to an idea…. Any idea…. NOT JUST THIS ONE…. And then call people idiots for having their own ideas…

  160. #160 Science Mom
    December 15, 2011

    If you really believe vaccines work, use them. I dont understand how they can claim to work if people still get the diseases…. And if you are using them then what are you worried about anyway?

    Of course, I was counting down to when this gambit showed up. You folks really do work from a playbook don’t you?

    Has there ever been a time in science when people have scientifically got it wrong?
    Thalidomide , anyone?

    Thalidomide use is more complicated than that and I doubt you could comprehend it even if I used small words. The short of it is, is that because some drugs have been demonstrated to be harmful, then all are for everyone? That rather simplistic view is contributing to your need to fabricate problems where they don’t exist.

    Ask yourself what values you have that make you hold on for dear life to an idea…. Any idea…. NOT JUST THIS ONE…. And then call people idiots for having their own ideas…

    Not ideas, evidence. Show evidence of adverse effects of vaccines being greater than those of wild-type disease. Show evidence for your claims. Use evidence or be an idiot, your choice.

  161. #161 Freedom of Choice
    December 15, 2011

    Damn straight Melski – like I said, if driving sober keeps people safe, why do they care if I drive drunk. So disappointing that such simple logic evades people – how dare they impinge on my freedom of choice!

  162. #162 Ren
    December 15, 2011

    *YAWN*

    What’d I miss?

  163. #163 Chris
    December 15, 2011

    Melski:

    Has there ever been a time in science when people have scientifically got it wrong?
    Thalidomide , anyone?

    So when was thalidomide approved for sale in the USA? Did the episode change anything with drug approval around the world? Do you know, or are just repeating something you read without actually reading up on it yourself?

    Melski:

    I dont understand how they can claim to work if people still get the diseases…. And if you are using them then what are you worried about anyway?

    Only after you explain how to keep a child under the age of one year protected from measles. Do tell us how we keep pertussis away from an infant under two months of age (oh, and they are not fully protected until they get the full series). Do you think babies deserve to get diseases?

    You are guilty of the Nirvana Fallacy, where you assume vaccine 100% effective. Unfortunately about one to five percent do not get immunity from a vaccine, and wear off (especially bacterial vaccines). Immunity even wanes if a person actually gets pertussis, so it is unrealistic to expect a vaccine to be better.

  164. #164 For Melski's information
    December 15, 2011

    “If you really believe vaccines work, use them. I dont understand how they can claim to work if people still get the diseases…. And if you are using them then what are you worried about anyway? ”

    Dear, sweet Melski, allow me to enlighten you. You may have seen people carrying these little creatures around, or pushing them in strollers. Those creatures are called “babies”, and a lot of people have an interest in keeping those babies alive – and until the babies are old enough for vaccines, they are vulnerable to every person who chooses to carry a disease; babies are also vulnerable to disease even before they are born (it was a disease-carrying adult that gave Gene Tierney the german measles that crippled her child). If you don’t care to reduce your risk of death or permanent injury, I respect your choice – but please stay away from innocent children.

  165. #165 Th1Th2
    December 15, 2011

    Show evidence of adverse effects of vaccines being greater than those of wild-type disease.

    1. Only the OPV vaccine can cause two different types of paralytic poliomyelitis.

    2. Only the killed measles vaccine can cause a fatal form of measles (atypical measles).

  166. #166 Narad
    December 15, 2011

    You really need to bone up on the use of “only” in English, sweet potato.

  167. #167 Th1Th2
    December 15, 2011

    Well, disprove it Narad.

  168. #168 Narad
    December 15, 2011

    Well, disprove it Narad.

    What, disprove that “Only the killed measles vaccine can cause a fatal form of measles”?

  169. #169 Th1Th2
    December 15, 2011

    Great, Thingy—disprove the arithmetic

    Alright I will.

    http://www.jstor.org/pss/3582376

  170. #170 herr doktor bimler
    December 15, 2011

    So when was thalidomide approved for sale in the USA?

    Ho ho, I see your trick question, Chris.

  171. #171 Th1Th2
    December 15, 2011

    What, disprove that “Only the killed measles vaccine can cause a fatal form of measles”?

    Yes, the atypical measles. Hit it.

  172. #172 Narad
    December 15, 2011

    Yes, the atypical measles. Hit it.

    Ah, so you admit your error. You seem to be racking up the embarrassments lately.

    Tell me about creationism.

  173. #173 Th1Th2
    December 15, 2011

    Ah, so you admit your error. You seem to be racking up the embarrassments lately.

    No, I want you to disprove that atypical measles is more dangerous than a classic measles. I’m waiting.

  174. #174 Narad
    December 15, 2011

    No, I want you to disprove that atypical measles is more dangerous than a classic measles. I’m waiting.

    And I want you to tell me about creationism, which came first. If you cannot play by your own rules, you do not get playmates.

    I’m waiting.

  175. #175 Th1Th2
    December 15, 2011

    Only after you explain how to keep a child under the age of one year protected from measles.

    1. Maternal antibodies.
    2. Measles virus inoculation is NOT recommended under age of one year.

    Do tell us how we keep pertussis away from an infant under two months of age (oh, and they are not fully protected until they get the full series). Do you think babies deserve to get diseases?

    I don’t think babies deserve to get any pertussis antigens. That’s barbarism. So by refusing vaccination, babies are protected.

  176. #176 Agashem
    December 15, 2011

    Did anybody else think “a classic Beatle” when reading Thing-dong’s response? I was waiting for “Help” or “Penny Lane”. Oh well.

  177. #177 Chris
    December 15, 2011

    No, Agashem, I did not. That is mostly because I don’t read anything Thingy writes. She is a manipulative delusional liar, so I don’t bother.

  178. #178 Narad
    December 15, 2011

    I don’t think babies deserve to get any pertussis antigens. That’s barbarism. So by refusing vaccination, babies are protected.

    You are barking up the wrong squirrel. No loitering allowed.

  179. #179 Th1Th2
    December 15, 2011

    And I want you to tell me about creationism, which came first. If you cannot play by your own rules, you do not get playmates.

    Herd immunity (myth)+ herd effect (another myth) = creationism

    Do you have any problem with that? Good.

    Now, let’s proceed to science and answer #171.

  180. #180 dedicated lurker
    December 15, 2011

    So when was thalidomide approved for sale in the USA?

    Oh, I know! 1998. For EML. It was approved for multiple myeloma in 2006.

  181. #181 Narad
    December 15, 2011

    Do you have any problem with that? Good.

    Why, yes. Do you have any problem with that? Good.

    There seems to be a problem with your taking your own routine. Now, let’s proceed to science and uncover the reason for your devotion to asymmetric communication (the myth of control).

  182. #182 Denice Walter
    December 15, 2011

    Where’s the bot when we need it?

  183. #183 Chris
    December 15, 2011

    You get a gold star! But did Melski know that, or why it took so long (and not for women who are or were planning to get pregnant)?

    A couple of summers ago we went on a bus tour to Butchart Garden near Victoria, BC. While we were waiting for folks to board the bus back to the hotel, the driver was telling us about famous Canadians, especially those from that island. It turned out he did not know about a person who was from very near there who had received an award by an American president due the thalidomide incident in the USA. He was impressed. (Oh, and another notable person who grew up on that island is dear spouse)

  184. #184 Th1Th2bot Service Center
    December 15, 2011

    Where’s the bot when we need it?

    It needs a shot of 4-in-1 and some input-set pruning from back when the target thought it was engaged in some sort of smackdown with our gracious host. And we have Corporate Visitors who seem to be into “eating.”

  185. #185 lilady
    December 15, 2011

    Thingy still hasn’t answered any questions about herd immunity and protecting infants too young to be immunized against vaccine-preventable diseases. It keeps focusing on its limited knowledge about immunology.

    “Only after you explain how to keep a child under the age of one year protected from measles.

    1. Maternal antibodies.
    2. Measles virus inoculation is NOT recommended under age of one year.”

    Many studies have been done that test maternal antibodies against measles in infants under one year of age, due to recent outbreaks of measles in Europe. Here is a study of waning measles maternal antibodies published by researchers in Spain. Note that the study was undertaken during 2007 on a population that was experiencing a measles outbreak

    Here you go Thingy…hot off the presses…on PubMed before publication:

    Epidemiol Infect. 2011 Nov 11:1-8. [Epub ahead of print]
    Measles antibodies and response to vaccination in children aged less than 14 months: implications for age of vaccination.
    Borràs E, Urbiztondo L, Costa J, Batalla J, Torner N, Plasencia A, Salleras L, Domínguez A; the Working Group for the Study of Measles Immunity in Children.
    Source

    CIBER en Epidemiología y Salud Pública (CIBERESP), Spain.
    Abstract

    SUMMARYPassive immunity against measles decreases during the first months of life. The objective of this study was to determine titres of measles antibodies in children aged 9-14 months and their mothers before vaccination, and the children’s response to vaccination. Blood samples were collected by capillary puncture before and 28 days after vaccination. Samples were obtained between February and June 2007 during an ongoing measles outbreak. Titres of specific measles IgG antibodies were determined by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay. Seroconversion was defined as the presence of antibodies after vaccination in subjects without antibodies before vaccination. Maternal antibodies were present in 37·7% of all 69 children included and in 45·1% of children aged 9 months. Of the 51 children in whom a second sample was obtained, 31 (60·8%) were seronegative before vaccination and 61·3% seroconverted. Interference of maternal antibodies was 30%. Advancing the first dose of measles vaccination from 15 to 12 months is a correct strategy, given the increase in the time of susceptibility of infants to measles.

    PMID:
    22074684
    [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

    BTW, measles IS recommended for children ages 6-12 months of age who are traveling to a measles endemic country. Early immunization at that age provides a measure of short term protection for the child and the child will still require the 2-dose series, after 12 months of age.

  186. #186 herr doktor bimler
    December 15, 2011

    It turned out he did not know about a person who was from very near there who had received an award by an American president due the thalidomide incident in the USA. He was impressed. (Oh, and another notable person who grew up on that island is dear spouse

    My own Frau Doktorin is related to the venerable Dr Kelsey.

  187. #187 Chris
    December 15, 2011

    herr dokter bimler, that is awesome!

  188. #188 herr doktor bimler
    December 15, 2011

    I would love her even without the family links.

  189. #189 Chris
    December 15, 2011

    Well, herr doktor bimler, that makes sense. Even though he must be the only person from that island that refuses to go camping, roughing it for him is a hotel without a pool to tire out the kids. I still love him (even though I kind of miss camping).

  190. #190 Glaxxon PharmaCOM Orbital
    December 16, 2011

    MESSAGE BEGINS—————————–

    Shills and Minions,

    Why was I not informed of this book?

    Very long time readers might recall that many years ago (well, more than six, to be precise), I came across a book by an anti-vaccine activist who apparently fancied himself a science fiction writer. I’m referring to the hilarious conspiracy novel The Vaccine Aliens by Ray Gallup, which tells the tale of a father whose child develops autism after (of course!) getting the MMR vaccine and then who later stumbles upon the reason why. It turns out that not only does the MMR vaccine cause autism, but that it’s a plot by shape-shifting aliens to destroy the human race with vaccines.

    Aliens? Shapeshifters? Really, how preposterous you monkeys are. I don’t know what gets into you sometimes.

    Have your people call my people,

    Lord Draconis Zeneca, Vh7ilh4965709L
    Pharmaca Magna of Terra, Primate Subjugator General, Foreward Mavoon of the Great Fleet, Soon to be a Major Motion Picture,

    Glaxoon PharmaCOM Orbital
    0010010001001000010101001111

    ———————–MESSAGE ENDS

  191. #191 Orac
    December 16, 2011

    Apologies, Lord. I had not as yet encountered the glory of Glaxoon PharmaCOM back when I wrote that post. Back then, I was merely an up-and-coming pharma blogger trying desperately to be noticed by our pharma overlords, the better to land a position praising your glory and crushing your enemies (verbally, anyway). By the time my efforts paid off and made me the dedicated and well-compensated pharma shill that I am, I had completely forgotten about such a seemingly inconsequential bit of anti-vaccine looniness.

  192. #192 Glaxxon PharmaCOM Orbital
    December 16, 2011

    MESSAGE BEGINS——————–

    Think nothing of the oversight. Besides, you know how fond I am of hiding in plain sight, now shouldn’t you be asleep?

    LDZ
    etc., etc.
    01

    —————————–MESSAGE ENDS

  193. #193 Greenwhat
    December 16, 2011

    Dear Lurker,
    In addition to your epic fail on the whole “yeast is in bread so wheat must be in yeast” thing, there is yet more compelling proof that Messenger’s child was not killed by the Hep B vaccine. This child died more than 30 years ago. Hep B vaccine has only been part of the universal program for Australian infants since 2000. Source: http://health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook-hepatitisb

  194. #194 TBruce
    December 16, 2011
    It turned out he did not know about a person who was from very near there who had received an award by an American president due the thalidomide incident in the USA. He was impressed. (Oh, and another notable person who grew up on that island is dear spouse)

    Me too. Born, raised and got my undergraduate degree in Victoria.

    I was pleased to learn that Frances Kelsey High School is the local high school near Cobble Hill, where Dr. Kelsey grew up.

  195. #195 Th1Th2
    December 16, 2011

    Add this to the list of adverse events attributed to vaccines alone (most notably DTP)

    3. Hypotonic-hyporesponsive episodes

  196. #196 Gray Falcon
    December 16, 2011

    Th1Th2, if you make a claim, you have to provide evidence for it. Why do you believe otherwise?

  197. #197 lilady
    December 16, 2011

    “Add this to the list of adverse events attributed to vaccines alone (most notably DTP)

    3. Hypotonic-hyporesponsive episodes”

    Add this to the list of adverse events attributed to TROLLS alone (most notably THINGY)

    3. DELUSIONS, IGNORANCE, DISEASE-PROMOTING episodes

    -FTFY

  198. #198 Th1Th2
    December 16, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    Th1Th2, if you make a claim, you have to provide evidence for it. Why do you believe otherwise?

    The evidence of harm.

    Conclusion

    The evidence is consistent with a causal relation between DPT vaccine and the HHE. The available evidence does not implicate the pertussis component specifically.

    Source: Adverse Effects of Pertussis and Rubella Vaccines, Institute of Medicine, 1991 p. 177

  199. #199 Gray Falcon
    December 16, 2011

    Th1Th2, you claimed that Hypotonic-hyporesponsive episodes are only caused by vaccines. Do you have any evidence for the part about only. Also you declared in #165 that “Only the killed measles vaccine can cause a fatal form of measles (atypical measles).” Do you have any evidence that absolutely nobody ever died of measles?

  200. #200 Th1Th2
    December 16, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    Th1Th2, you claimed that Hypotonic-hyporesponsive episodes are only caused by vaccines. Do you have any evidence for the part about only.

    Background. A hypotonic–hyporesponsive episode (HHE) is the sudden onset of hypotonia, hyporesponsiveness, and pallor or cyanosis that occurs within 48 hours after childhood immunizations. This syndrome has been primarily associated with pertussis-containing vaccines administered to children (younger than) 2 years of age, and has been estimated to occur once every 1750 diphtheria-tetanus-pertussis (DTwP) vaccinations. Previous studies of HHE were limited by small numbers of cases and, sometimes, by limited details of the event.

    Is there anything that you would like to add to the etiology?

  201. #201 Beamup
    December 16, 2011

    Have you forgotten? The delusional idiot believes that nobody has ever contracted measles except from the vaccine.

  202. #202 Th1Th2
    December 16, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    Also you declared in #165 that “Only the killed measles vaccine can cause a fatal form of measles (atypical measles).” Do you have any evidence that absolutely nobody ever died of measles?

    “Only the killed measles vaccine can cause a more fatal form of measles (atypical measles).”

    Happy now?

  203. #203 Greenwhat
    December 16, 2011

    Good news Everyone! Way back at Comment #9, I linked to a site where Stephanie Messenger was using images of Sesame Street characters to sell her evil little book. I know a number of you wrote to the Children’s Television Workshop, and I’m happy to report that the images have now gone. I haven’t had a reply to my initial email to the CTW, so if anyone has heard from them, I’d be curious to know .

  204. #204 Calli Arcale
    December 16, 2011

    Th1Th2:

    This syndrome has been primarily associated with pertussis-containing vaccines

    Primarily does not equal only, Th1Th2. This does not support your claim.

    And even if it did, you need to show the relative risk before it becomes a serious reasons to refuse vaccination; you act as though this always or generally happens as opposed to extremely rarely, and compare that against the risks faced if a large number of people follow your advice. But you already know that’s your burden of proof, don’t you? You just have no interest in actually supporting your claims. Thus, I shall now resume my policy of not responding to you. There is seldom any point.

  205. #205 lilady
    December 16, 2011

    @ Gray Falcon: Cherry-Picking Troll is at it again. The PubMed abstract citation is 11015547 and the full article is available as well. The full article appeared in Pediatrics Journal, October 2000 issue “Hypotonic and Hyporesponsive Episodes Reported to the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) 1996-1998″ Here is the conclusion…conveniently omitted by the cherry-picking troll:

    CONCLUSION:

    This study represents the largest published case series of children with HHE and supports the generally benign, self-limited, nonrecurrent nature of this syndrome. Although HHE has been less frequently reported to VAERS after increased use of DTaP, HHE does occur after the administration of DTaP and other nonpertussis-containing vaccines. Although most parents and pediatricians withheld the pertussis component of subsequent vaccinations, many did not, with no reported adverse events occurring in the children after the subsequent immunizations. Restricting the definition of HHE to a more narrow age range (eg, less than 2 years of age) is also proposed because most of the older children probably experienced vasovagal syncope rather than HHE within 5 minutes of immunization.

    PMID:
    11015547
    [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    You really ought to read the entire article available in the Pediatrics Journal and see how recent VAERS entries “read”. Most, if not all of the self-reported VAERS reports attribute “autism” to the newer accelular DTaP vaccine.

    -FTFY Busted Troll

  206. #206 Th1Th2
    December 16, 2011

    Calli Arcale,

    Primarily does not equal only, Th1Th2. This does not support your claim.

    You’re absolutely right. Not just the pertussis vaccine.

    Note that although pertussis [vaccine] is most associated with this reaction, it has been reported with other vaccines including DT3 and DTaP4

    Now let me hear about your other nonvaccine-related etiologies? Well?

  207. #207 Gray Falcon
    December 16, 2011

    Th1Th2,

    “Only the killed measles vaccine can cause a more fatal form of measles (atypical measles).”

    Okay, where is your evidence that more people are dying from the measles vaccine than have died from measles? Surely somebody would have noticed that the death rate went up.

    Here’s the difference between a scientist and a conspiracy nut. Scientist: “If A is true, the B will happen. There is no evidence of B happening. A must not be true.” Conspiracy nut. “If A is true, the B will happen. There is no evidence of B happening. Somebody must be covering B up.”

  208. #208 Calli Arcale
    December 16, 2011

    Exactly, Gray. When I used to hang out at space message boards, we’d get people who were just like that about alien life. Lack of evidence is, to them, evidence of conspiracy.

    Charles Babbage once said, “On two occasions, I have been asked, ‘Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?’ I cannot apprehend the confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.” I must say, I likewise cannot apprehend the confusion of ideas that could provoke Th1Th2’s statements.

  209. #209 Th1Th2
    December 16, 2011

    Calli Arcale,

    And even if it did, you need to show the relative risk before it becomes a serious reasons to refuse vaccination;

    What part of “The evidence is consistent with a causal relation between DPT vaccine and the HHE“, do you not understand?

    Second, what other diseases can cause HHE? If you want to determine the relative risk then you have to identify the corresponding disease that causes HHE. Well?

    you act as though this always or generally happens as opposed to extremely rarely, and compare that against the risks faced if a large number of people follow your advice.

    AFAIK, unvaccinated newborns are at no risk for HHE unless you have evidence on the contrary.

    But you already know that’s your burden of proof, don’t you?

    Read the writing on the wall.


    Despite increasingly widespread use of acellular pertussis vaccine in infants, HHE will continue to occur.

  210. #210 Th1Th2
    December 16, 2011

    Calli Arcale,

    And even if it did, you need to show the relative risk before it becomes a serious reasons to refuse vaccination;

    What part of “The evidence is consistent with a causal relation between DPT vaccine and the HHE“, do you not understand?

    Second, what other diseases can cause HHE? If you want to determine the relative risk then you have to identify the corresponding disease that causes HHE. Well?

    you act as though this always or generally happens as opposed to extremely rarely, and compare that against the risks faced if a large number of people follow your advice.

    AFAIK, unvaccinated newborns are at no risk for HHE unless you have evidence on the contrary.

    But you already know that’s your burden of proof, don’t you?

    Read the writing on the wall. h_ttp://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/102/5/e52


    Despite increasingly widespread use of acellular pertussis vaccine in infants, HHE will continue to occur.

  211. #211 lilady
    December 16, 2011

    “Time Warped” Thingy troll is getting desperate…it now links to a 1998 article from New Zealand…

    Again…here is another piece of the cherry-picked 13 year old article:

    “Serious effects but no long term sequelae reported

    HHE is defined as an acute diminution in sensory awareness or loss of consciousness accompanied by pallor and muscle hypotonicity.1 Variously described as shock, collapse or HHE, onset is within 12 hours after immunisation. Most children are initially irritable and febrile, then become pale, limp and unresponsive or hyporesponsive. Respiration is shallow and cyanosis frequently occurs. The duration of an episode varies from a few minutes to 36 hours.

    The initial response should be as in any case of shock (airway, breathing, circulation). Careful clinical observation and documentation of the event are vital for differential diagnosis. Urgent hospital referral is advised for paediatric assessment and to exclude other causes.

    A return to normal after the reaction has been reported in all published cases.1 No long term sequelae have been identified in the small number of children who have had long term follow-up.”

    Oh…I’m “getting it” now. After being busted about AFP it reprograms its brain droppings functions to cherry-pick old articles about DPT vaccines.

    I’ve had my fun…for now…playing with the Thingy troll.

  212. #212 a-non
    December 16, 2011

    Hopefully, this atrocity of a book doesn’t catch on, or we’ll be subjected to more appalling, alliterative trash like:

    Charlie: The Champion Of Chicken Pox
    Hannah’s Happy HepB
    Patty’s Perky Pertussis

    All filled with tales of brave kids (and stupid parents) fighting the medical establishment and getting infected with potentially serious diseases.

  213. #213 lilady
    December 16, 2011

    @ Greenwhat: Kudos to you for alerting us about the use of Sesame Street characters to market this “children’s book”.

    I too wrote to sesamestreet.org (see my posting at #36 above) and have not received a reply. But…apparently “it worked”. Perhaps the legal department at CTW has sent the author a “cease and desist” letter…terrific!

  214. #214 puppygod
    December 16, 2011

    @208 Calli Arcale

    Charles Babbage once said, “On two occasions, I have been asked, ‘Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?’ I cannot apprehend the confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.” I must say, I likewise cannot apprehend the confusion of ideas that could provoke Th1Th2’s statements.

    Well, there is a reason why this kind of logic is called insane troll logic.

  215. #215 Th1Th2
    December 16, 2011

    Gray Falcon,

    Okay, where is your evidence that more people are dying from the measles vaccine than have died from measles? Surely somebody would have noticed that the death rate went up.

    Surely you have noticed that killed measles vaccine had since been discontinued. Was there a reason as to why they were discontinued? How about the HT measles vaccine? Whatever happened to this highly touted and recommended vaccine?

  216. #216 Wow
    December 16, 2011

    “Was there a reason as to why they were discontinued?”

    Was that reason because a greater proportion of people died from that vaccine than died without a vaccine? Or was the reason that a new vaccine would be better?

    Why did they change Solpadine to Solpadine plus?

  217. #217 Th1Th2
    December 16, 2011

    Was that reason because a greater proportion of people died from that vaccine than died without a vaccine? Or was the reason that a new vaccine would be better?

    The HT measles vaccine is more immunogenic than any standard titer measles vaccines but then it was also discontinued. So that means, you’re left with the other explanation.

  218. #218 TBruce
    December 16, 2011

    Did anybody else think “a classic Beatle” when reading Thing-dong’s response? I was waiting for “Help” or “Penny Lane”. Oh well.

    “Revolution No 9″, except that this makes more sense than the Thing’s gibberish.

  219. #219 Narad
    December 16, 2011

    Now let me hear about your other nonvaccine-related etiologies? Well?

    Here’s a hint: Trying to call a dog’s attention to something by pointing usually results in the dog paying attention to your hand instead.

  220. #220 dedicated lurker
    December 16, 2011

    Someone needs to collect all of Thingy’s greatest hits in one post, for handy linking purposes.

  221. #221 Heliantus
    December 16, 2011

    @ Dedicated Lurker

    Someone needs to collect all of Thingy’s greatest hits in one post

    Please don’t. Concentrating its wisdom in a single post will create a black hole in the server.
    On the other hand, accelerating its ideas on a collision course with reality could be a way to look for the Higgs boson.

  222. #222 Stu
    December 16, 2011

    “Only the killed measles vaccine can cause a more fatal form of measles (atypical measles).”

    Wait, so it kills you twice?

    What a Goddamned moron you are.

  223. #223 Grant
    December 16, 2011

    @55 (brian) Thanks for the bibliography. If I can only find time (!) I’ll take a run through them. The Dravet Syndrome / etc. genetics angle to these childhood neurological issues is a fascinating story.

  224. #224 herr doktor bimler
    December 16, 2011

    more fatal form
    This was the first time I had encountered this comparative form of ‘fatal’. Evidently death from some causes is somehow deathier than when other causes are involved.

  225. #225 Grant
    December 16, 2011

    @222: You’d hope he means a higher fatality rate, eh?

  226. #226 Krebiozen
    December 16, 2011

    Asymptomatic and non-transmissible infections were bad enough, now I have to worry about rare, generally benign, self-limited, non-recurrent syndromes too?

  227. #227 Sock Puppet of the Great Satan
    December 16, 2011

    “Screw all those other kids who suffer severe complications or even death due to vaccine-preventable diseases! If your child suffers such consequences, he must have been worthless and weak (no doubt thanks to your not using enough woo to “boost his immune system naturally), and maybe surviving a serious disease will make him stronger. ”

    Don’t forget the influence of Waldorf education. Steiner, the founder of Waldorf, believed that children benefitted from “”being tempered in the fires of a good inflammation”. Steiner, whose ideas on medicine predate the germ theory and died before the first isolation of a virus, is in vogue with many granola liberal parents, who may be technically educated but think it’s OK to teach their kids that natural phenomena are caused by gnomes.

  228. #228 lilady
    December 16, 2011

    “Asymptomatic and non-transmissible infections were bad enough, now I have to worry about rare, generally benign, self-limited, non-recurrent syndromes too?”

    Surely the Th1Th2bot could manage this…after it gets reprogrammed at the Th1Th2bot Service Center.

  229. #229 Jean
    December 16, 2011

    I can see the good side of some vaccines and the bad side. Those who are vaccinated should not worry about those who are not, because if the unvaccinated ones become infected, the vaccinated ones are covered.
    I am a bit iffy on some of the stuff they stick into the vaccines as a carrier such as Mercury and Formaldehyde that I am sure could be changed. I am not so sure about is the Cervical Cancer Vac for girls and boys before their teens. There is a huge number of people who are vaccinated who are sterile now and I am wondering why. It also seems there is an explosion of gay people in the world?? IVF seems to be the norm????. I am certainly not fully opposed to vaccines, don’t get me wrong, but Whooping Cough is easily fixed by one administration of a homeopathic remedy which works within 2 minutes but doctors are not using it ??? There are some really good therapies both sides. Jean

  230. #230 Lawrence
    December 16, 2011

    Jean – so a glass of water is the cure for Pertussis? Wow, who knew?

    I’d like to see your citations for sterility. Or the “gay explosion?” You’re not blaming vaccines for homosexuality, are you?

    If alt meds worked, they wouldn’t be alt, they’d be medicine.

  231. #231 Narad
    December 16, 2011

    There is a huge number of people who are vaccinated who are sterile now and I am wondering why. It also seems there is an explosion of gay people in the world?? IVF seems to be the norm????. I am certainly not fully opposed to vaccines, don’t get me wrong

    That’s a keeper.

  232. #232 dedicated lurker
    December 16, 2011

    IVF is the norm? Funny, I thought most people still got pregnant the old fashioned way. (But then again, when I first heard about IVF I didn’t realize they put the embryo back in and thought the baby was grown in a test tube for nine months.)

  233. #233 TBruce
    December 16, 2011

    Gay people are exploding? Good grief, something needs to be done about this!

    Everything else you’ve written, Jean, is wrong, insane, or both (mostly both).

  234. #234 Narad
    December 16, 2011

    I will say that “cyclotronic balancing” is a new one on me, though.

  235. #235 AdamG
    December 16, 2011

    You can count this gay man as unexploded.

    Seriously though Jean, have you ever considered that your so called “explosion of gay people in the world” might be due to relaxed cultural pressures that encourage more gay individuals to come out? I doubt it’s the absolute number of gay individuals that’s changed, only the number of OUT gay individuals.

  236. #236 Science Mom
    December 16, 2011

    Jean needs to write a book on healthcare and teh exploding gays. I’d put it on my coffee table.

  237. #237 Antaeus Feldspar
    December 16, 2011

    I can see the good side of some vaccines and the bad side. Those who are vaccinated should not worry about those who are not, because if the unvaccinated ones become infected, the vaccinated ones are covered.

    That’s a common misunderstanding, Jean. If you are exposed to an infectious agent, having been vaccinated against that infection greatly increases your immune system’s chances of defeating the infection. But a risk still exists, even if one is vaccinated; the fact is that diseases have evolved over millenia to invade and exploit bodies like ours, and they’re very good at it! Just as people who wear seltbelts to give them protection in the event of a crash still drive carefully to avoid getting into crashes at all – and are still put in danger when they encounter other drivers on the road who don’t drive carefully – so too do people who get vaccinations to give them protection if they’re exposed to an infectious disease are still being put in unnecessary danger when others who won’t take those precautions keep the infectious agent supplied with vulnerable hosts, and keep it circulating in the population.

    By the way, those homeopathic cures for pertussis? The reason doctors don’t use them is that they don’t work.

  238. #238 Chris
    December 16, 2011

    Jean:

    Those who are vaccinated should not worry about those who are not, because if the unvaccinated ones become infected, the vaccinated ones are covered.

    What about babies? Do you care if babies get measles? Or if infants get pertussis?

    So if you are not opposed to vaccines, why are you opposed to a basic education? Perhaps you should try some.

  239. #239 lilady
    December 16, 2011

    Is this one for real? It’s a joke, right?

    Jean…what about your profession as a Reiki master qualifies you as an expert on vaccines? We have already discussed formaldehyde and mercury in vaccines and they don’t cause autism, mental retardation, gayness or sterility.

    I wonder why Jean is not worried about dihydrogen monoxide and all the serious consequences of exposure to this molecule?

  240. #240 Denice Walter
    December 16, 2011

    OMFG!
    Do you mean to tell me that when the gays and lesbians began to came out in the 1970s at universities and hipster enclaves all over the English-speaking world it was the *vaccines*?

    And I always thought it was caused by Glam Rock!

  241. #241 Militant Agnostic
    December 17, 2011

    Grant

    You can count this gay man as unexploded.

    So far anyway – call me a homophobe, but I will be keeping my distance just in case, especially if you have received any vaccinations recently.

    Your body makes far more formaldehyde naturally than is contained in vaccines, the mercury compound thimerosal is rapidly eliminated.

    Perhaps someone should tell Jean the Reiki master that some asshole is making stupid blog comments under her name accompanied by a link to her website.

  242. #242 Farne
    December 17, 2011

    They used to say that our mothers made us into homosexuals, exploding and otherwise … but now I know it was the vaccines! Wow. So I guess I should write and thank BigPharma for making me a lesbian… Gee, Jean, I never knew.

  243. #243 Militant Agnostic
    December 17, 2011

    These Gems from Jean’s website.

    In less than one hundred years the level of oxygen in our atmosphere has fallen from 35% to 19%.

    I would have thought that a 50% reduction in atmospheric oxygen would have decreased the incidence of exploding gays.

    What does this oxygen depletion mean to the man in the street? American actor Woody Harrelson has financed a string of oxygen bars around the US. Patrons are hooked up to liquid oxygen and experience the levels of oxygen that granddad would have felt as a child!

    Does this moron know how cold liquid oxygen (even under pressure) is?

    In the late 80s a NASA scientist experimenting with the electrode extraction of hydrogen from water found that he could neutralize the acidic oxygen residue with sea salt. To his surprise he found that he had inadvertently stumbled across a completely natural technique to stabilize oxygen. His discovery, Di-atomic oxygen which could deliver 30 times more oxygen than tap water was never commercially developed by NASA although it was widely used in the space program.

    Where can I get some of this diatomic oxygen? Takes a deep breath – let me think.

    Oxygen is needed to neutralise free radicals, caused by infections but it is also a powerful pathogen killer in its own right. Harmful anaerobic bacteria and viruses cannot survive in the presence of oxygen. Thankfully oxygen is selective with this killer capacity. Unlike the indiscriminate drugs and antibiotics, oxygen takes out the bad guys leaving the beneficials to thrive. The oxygen molecule in stabilised oxygen supplements forces the anaerobes to give up some of their electrons, killing them in the process. Aerobic beneficials will not give up their electrons and neither will the beneficial gut bacteria, which live under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions. In fact these important creatures are actually stimulated by oxygen.

    And I always thought gut bacteria lived in the gut because it was an anaerobic environment.

    Who needs the Friday Dose of Woo when assclowns like Jean provide us with such wonderful links. Instead of wondering if god can create a rock so heavy he can’t lift it we should wonder if an altie can say something so stupid other alties won’t believe it. I think the answer is no.

  244. #244 Militant Agnostic
    December 17, 2011

    I have long comment in moderation which can be summarized as who needs the Friday Dose of Woo when whackaloons like Jean leave links on RI.

    Denice – are woomeisters you follow pro or anti-gay. I see a lot of Victorian attitudes amongst alties.

    Fame – I recall some British government official (or maybe it was a Cabinet Minister) in the late 19th century declaring that there was some small (as in double digit) number of homosexuals in Britain and no lesbians at all. Maybe it is the vaccines after all.

  245. #245 Richard Wolford
    December 17, 2011

    Jean, your profession of “making shit up” doesn’t work in the real world. Waving your hands over someone won’t do jack shit. Vaccines on the other hand save lives, so maybe you should stop by and check out reality some time, you may enjoy it here. Or continue to be a fucking dumbass, your call.

  246. #246 Phoenix Woman
    December 17, 2011

    Jean:

    http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Multiple_exclamation_marks

    In your case it’s question marks, but for all practical purposes it comes to the same thing in the end in terms of signifier and result.

  247. #247 farne
    December 17, 2011

    @239 Militant Agnostic – no, we didn’t exist at all in the minds of the men who ran the Empire… mostly so deep in the closet that the animals were talking! So many things to thank vaccines for.

  248. #248 lilady
    December 17, 2011

    OMG…am I at risk for sexual ambiguity or for changing from straight to finding myself attracted to the lesbian lifestyle?

    I think back on all those kids and adults I immunized during a long career in public and drawing up doses from multi-dose and single dose vaccines, admixing diluent into MMR vaccine vials and perhaps dripping some OPV on my hands…I don’t want to be another casualty of the “exploding” gay/lesbian population.

    BTW, Jean…I see your partner also performs “craniosacral therapy”. We have had a lively ongoing discussion at the Science Based Medicine blog and I have posted several analyses about this “therapy”…which you might find of interest.

  249. #249 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    December 17, 2011

    Re Victorian homosexuality:

    As you all know, a number of very regressive anti-gay laws were passed in the 19th century that were still on the books a century later at least—Alan Turing most famously suffered under them. When they were written up, they applied to men and women equally, but Queen Victoria wouldn’t sign off on them in that form, because she absolutely, irreconcilably believed that there was no such thing as female homosexuality.

    Her Ministers could have forced the laws through without her approval, of course, but they didn’t want to hurt her feelings. So under British law, male homosexuality was savagely sanctioned for over a century, while lesbians were invisible to the law.

  250. #250 LW
    December 17, 2011

    “I am certainly not fully opposed to vaccines, don’t get me wrong, but Whooping Cough is easily fixed by one administration of a homeopathic remedy which works within 2 minutes but doctors are not using it ???”

    Jean, are you aware that there was a pertussis outbreak in California last year? Nearly a dozen babies died of it. Now, perhaps you missed that, but believe me, there will be other outbreaks.

    I think you have a moral obligation in the next pertussis outbreak to get out there and shout from the rooftops that there is an easy cure. Get out there with a film crew and announce to desperate parents that you can easily cure their children in two minutes. Broadcast it live: the parents bring their coughing, choking, gasping, wheezing baby to you; you give them a glass of water; you and the parents chat before the camera for two minutes; and then the baby sits up and smiles and the parents go away singing the praises of homeopathic medicine.

    Really, this is such an easy and obvious way to prove the value of homeopathic medicine, I can’t imagine why homeopaths waste their time with silly studies that show that maybe, under the right conditions, some children with diarrhea get over it four hours sooner if they get sugar pills than if they don’t.

    But we can count on you in the next pertussis outbreak, right, Jean?

  251. #251 Johnny
    December 17, 2011

    Perhaps someone should tell Jean the Reiki master that some asshole is making stupid blog comments under her name accompanied by a link to her website.

    I have to disagree – I think Jean is for real.

    Go to the web site she posted, and click on the ‘Autism’ link. We can read the following snippets –

    I have found that there are two causes of Autism, one is spiritual and the second is from chemicals/toxins, i.e. vaccines, toxic substances such as alcohol or medicinal or habitual drugs through the mother.

    At approximately 5-6 months old, the soul has a chance to return from whence it came from, (cot death), as a Portal opens, this stays open for about 4-6 weeks, this allows the soul to return if it does not like it here, or has chosen the wrong parents or for a variety of reasons unknown to us.

    Then at approximately 12 months old another portal opens up for an indeterminate period, this could be for a minute, an hour a day a week. If at this time the soul decides to ¨have a look¨ just in case it wishes to return, and the portal closes, ¨trapping the soul¨ and leaving the body here in this dimension, this will show up at about 18, months old as non growth emotionally, and is termed Autism.

    The part that discusses the toxic causes of autism is just wrong.

    The science is weak in this one.

  252. #252 Denice Walter
    December 17, 2011

    On second thought: perhaps vaccines are an *in-direct* cause but caused Glam Rock- which in turn caused gays and lesbians. And thank you for that!

    The Victorian attitude and consequent laws landed Oscar Wilde in prison: he died soon thereafter at 46. Shaw was more clandesdine, living to a ripe old age and being a force in political movements. Another( non-British) Victorian wrote extensively about the aetiology of same-sex orientation which influenced mores and attitudes – for good and ill, ill mostly- for a hundred years i.e. Freud.

    @ lilady: the idiots I survey ostentively support gay men and lesbians in *word*- saying that they’re against prejudice, that they don’t discriminate ( probably because they welcome customers of any orientation, creed, or ethnicity. Money is money). However, *in deed* they insidiously work against a gay issue because Null and Adams vocally promote HIV/AIDS denialism. Work by Kalichman and Natrass ( separately and respectively) show that attitudes based on denialism filtre down to young gay men who are sexually active and that those who espouse these beliefs are less likely to use condoms.

    Actually these alt meddlers don’t *exactly* discriminate because their horrendous ideas about the origins/ treatment of cancer and anti-vaccinationism harm straight people as well. Equal opportunity destroyers, I’d say. While there are some alt med proselytisers with strong ties to the evangelicals who are anti-gay/ lesbian in word as well as deed, the ones I watch and first and foremost entrepreneurs and outright discrimation can be bad for business.

  253. #253 LW
    December 17, 2011

    Then at approximately 12 months old another portal opens up for an indeterminate period, this could be for a minute, an hour a day a week. If at this time the soul decides to ¨have a look¨ just in case it wishes to return, and the portal closes, ¨trapping the soul¨ and leaving the body here in this dimension, this will show up at about 18, months old as non growth emotionally, and is termed Autism.

    So autistic people are literally soulless? What a lovely message.

  254. #254 Chris
    December 17, 2011

    Jean looks like an example of a person who thought high school was fun, except for the learning part. She is barely literate and just makes stuff up.

  255. #255 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    This was the first time I had encountered this comparative form of ‘fatal’. Evidently death from some causes is somehow deathier than when other causes are involved.

    Cancer, no?

  256. #256 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    What about babies? Do you care if babies get measles?

    Which of the two measles, the classic or the atypical?

    Or if infants get pertussis?

    When do you plan to have them get the disease?

  257. #257 Agashem
    December 17, 2011

    More obfuscation from the Thing-dong. Just tell us how you plan to prevent it.

  258. #258 Denice Walter
    December 17, 2011

    @ LW: to be truthful, not having is a soul isn’t so bad: I seem to be doing alright. I know I know- that’s not what they mean, they’re into that whole metaphorical *soul* that substitutes for mind, personality, intention, value, meaningfulness, et al. So that *would* be bad.

    Much alt med revolves upon the “soul” issue: they have a slippery concept comprised of ideas from New Agey mysticism, Hinduism and Buddhism tossed together in a blender as if they were producing one of the ubiquitous smoothies they relish. They like to shriek, “Soul-less” at SBM and psychologists. I wonder why?

    Because they don’t have data and they want to distract you about that salient fact! How can they be *better* – which they claim- if they have no data? Well, they have a soul! And you can’t get caught by the holes in your data when you talk about souls… or rely upon your sparkling personality. It is *beyond* earthly old *data*.

  259. #259 LW
    December 17, 2011

    @258: oh, I don’t have a problem with not having a soul either. But “soulless” is, you say, used as an insult and therefore *is* an insult, even if totally unrelated to the real world. Further, to those who think it *is* meaningful, a human body without a soul is just walking meat, an abomination, something to be destroyed.

    I find that I don’t like Jean very much.

  260. #260 lilady
    December 17, 2011

    @ Denice Walter: I am avidly watching all the Republican debates in order to decide ***which Republican will get my vote. But, many of them are flip-flopping on the issue of gay marriage, it is difficult to decide.

    Some young gay/lesbian people remind me of some young parents…too far removed from the days when the medical profession hadn’t developed viable treatments for AIDS…and too far removed from the days when vaccine-preventable diseases were prevalent and caused permanent disabilities and deaths.

    @ Chris: “Jean looks like an example of a person who thought high school was fun, except for the learning part. She is barely literate and just makes stuff up.” She is also a pathological liar…her first child succumbed to a genetic disease…most like Alexander disease, according to the consensus of the specialists who cared for the child.

    @ Thingy: “Cancer, no?”…delusional, yes?

    ***I lie. The sheer entertainment value, draws me to the debates. I will be voting for our President.

  261. #261 LW
    December 17, 2011

    But “soulless” is, AS you say

    Sorry, dropped a word. I didn’t mean to imply that you alone say that “soulless” is an insult.

  262. #262 lilady
    December 17, 2011

    “What about babies? Do you care if babies get measles?

    Which of the two measles, the classic or the atypical?

    Or if infants get pertussis?

    When do you plan to have them get the disease?”

    What about Thingy? Do you care if Thingy is insane?

    Which of the two delusions, the classic or the atypical?

    Or if Thingy gets “certified”?

    When do you plan to have Thingy permanently institutionalized?”

    -FTFY

  263. #263 Chris
    December 17, 2011

    lilady:

    She is also a pathological liar…her first child succumbed to a genetic disease…most like Alexander disease, according to the consensus of the specialists who cared for the child.

    So Jean had the same story as Stephanie Messenger? Did she steal it from Ms. Messenger? I don’t know, since I have not visited her website.

  264. #264 LW
    December 17, 2011

    #243: Militant Agnostic, just wanted you to know how much I enjoyed your comment.

  265. #265 Agashem
    December 17, 2011

    And silence. No idea how to prevent. Just as I thought.

  266. #266 Denice Walter
    December 17, 2011

    correction: my @252 was for *Militant Agnostic* ( @244) not lilady. Apology: I should be more cautious in differentiating the shills/ minions.

    I have to go and drive 100 miles for a dinner at some ridiculously over-priced hipster-ridden haunt betwixt the Delaware and Schuykill, a/k/a the Old City. Oh well.

  267. #267 lilady
    December 17, 2011

    @ Chris: That’s a gotcha! You were referring to “Jean”, who has a secret 2 minute “treatment” for pertussis…she is a pathological liar.

  268. #268 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    Agashem,

    Yo’ blind? #175

  269. #269 Dianne
    December 17, 2011

    Further, to those who think it *is* meaningful, a human body without a soul is just walking meat, an abomination, something to be destroyed.

    Well, it’s certainly true that autistic children have been killed or neglected to death by their parents. Possibly under the delusion that they were soulless abominations. Or maybe just because they were difficult children and the parents didn’t want to be bothered with less than perfection.

  270. #270 LW
    December 17, 2011

    Oh, Jean’s website is so awesome.

    Did you know she has a “slither of agate”* that turns royal blue when she does reiki? I picture the agate slithering around her neck, leaving a trail of royal blue slime … I would so love to see that.

    And look what they distribute: “Plant Derived Soluble Minerals  (Pleasant tasting Prehistoric Plant Life fizzy tabs)”. Oh, I do so want the prehistoric plant life. I mean, I don’t want the fizzy tabs, I just want the plant life. Seeds, especially, though viable shoots would be wonderful also. I’m going to contact the source (US Naturals Products) directly. I’m especially hoping they can get me some prehistoric animal life as well.

    * Lest you think I’m mocking a typo, I point out that she uses that exact phrase twice.

  271. #271 lilady
    December 17, 2011

    Thingy:

    Yo’ blind and delusional? #185

  272. #272 lilady
    December 17, 2011

    @ LW: Slither of agate, eh. I have a huge geode with gem-quality amethysts from Brazil. I remember the first time I hauled it over to the sink to wash it, I was afraid that some tropical lizard would come “slithering” out.

  273. #273 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    ill-lady,

    Just as your name suggests, infecting newborns and infants at such an early age is an ill-advise let alone an act of barbarism hence your infection-promoting agenda of inoculating them with measles virus does not start until the age of one year. Sometimes compassion is rarely found among infection promoters.

  274. #274 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 17, 2011

    Plant Derived Soluble Minerals (Pleasant tasting Prehistoric Plant Life fizzy tabs)

    Minerals derived from prehistoric plant life? You mean like coal? Pleasant tasting coal fizzy tabs?

  275. #275 LW
    December 17, 2011

    @lilady, ah, that’s it! She has a slithery thing that *lives* in her agate and slithers around leaving a trail of royal blue slime when she does reiki. Not to my taste, really, but to each her own.

    Still, mockery aside, I think Orac should take a look at that site. I found it pretty disturbing. There’s a worshipful write-up of New German Medicine, a warning about black salve (good) ending with a recommendation of one particular brand of black salve (ghastly), and some nonsense that all benign tumors start as malignant tumors. I couldn’t get through very much of it. I did enjoy the gibberish about oxygen, though.

  276. #276 LW
    December 17, 2011

    “Pleasant tasting coal fizzy tabs?”

    Well, that thought had crossed my mind, but I think the time machine explanation is better.

  277. #277 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 17, 2011

    True or false – the only way that infants become ill with pertussis is through planned activity.

  278. #278 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 17, 2011

    Per Jean’s web site, “Approximately 99% of the body is comprised of minerals”. Wow! When you add that ~80% of the body is comprised of water (not generally considered a mineral, though there is water in the crystal structure of some minerals), that’s about 179%! That hardly leaves any room for protein or other complex organic compounds!

    We must be the Horta.

  279. #279 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    True or false – the only way that infants become ill with pertussis is through planned activity.

    You can always plan by going to the nearest pertussis depot or visit the doctor to get the shot.

  280. #280 lilady
    December 17, 2011

    @Thingy

    Just as your POSTS suggest, infecting newborns and infants at such an early age is an ill-advise let alone an act of barbarism hence your infection-promoting agenda of INFECTING them with measles virus WILL START AT ANY AGE. NEVER IS compassion found among infection promoters WHO ARE DELUSIONAL, UNEDUCATED, HEALTH-CARE-PROFESSIONAL WANNABE TROLLS.

    -FTFY, SH** FOR BRAINS TROLL

  281. #281 LW
    December 17, 2011

    “True or false – the only way that infants become ill with pertussis is through planned activity.”

    Of course it’s true. Anyone with a contagious disease has a bilious green aura, so you just avoid them and use clairvoyance to identify any air, food, or water that they might have contaminated. Easy as pi.

    Unless … oh, dear … perhaps you’re one of those people and can’t see auras or use clairvoyance.

    Um, well, you’re on your own then. Your children, too.

  282. #282 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 17, 2011

    @278 – That answers a completely different question. Thanks for playing.

  283. #283 LW
    December 17, 2011

    Mephistopheles, another reason I adopted the time machine hypothesis is that they claim “Plant Derived Soluble Minerals”. Usually “soluble” in reference to something to be consumed by human beings means “soluble in water”, which carbon notably is not. But now that you’ve pointed out that we’re the Horta, well, maybe “soluble in certain metals” is an acceptable meaning. I bow to your superior interpretive skills.

  284. #284 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 17, 2011

    Frankly, I’m surprised by the lack of outrage from certain parties against a book (“Melanie’s Marvelous Measles”) which promotes real, natural, full strength, measles infection and declares it a good thing.

  285. #285 Th1Th2bot
    December 17, 2011

    You can always plan by going to the nearest pertussis depot or visit the doctor to get the shot.

    Either by maternal brown sugar cubes. You can do you bleed had used to children from drug addicts, they can’t wait. It burns when you being rarely a pig; with this the mother is to be asking if you don’t have neither of goalpost? Ancient method, if there’s no infection promoters even though the doctor can do is talking. There’s no not exist? Duh.

  286. #286 LW
    December 17, 2011

    Frankly, I’m surprised by the lack of outrage from certain parties against a book (“Melanie’s Marvelous Measles”) which promotes real, natural, full strength, measles infection and declares it a good thing.

    Well, it’s written for those people — the ones who can’t simply avoid illness by spotting bilious green auras and using clairvoyance to avoid contaminated food, air, and water. Since they’re going to get sick anyway through their inability to use due diligence, they should be encouraged to embrace it. Sort of the “lie back and think of England idea” for dying children.

  287. #287 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 17, 2011

    Dang, after mentioning the Horta I have Voltaire’s “The Sexy Data Tango” (from his Banned on Vulcan EP) running through my head. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU4B8nYKH5E

  288. #288 Agashem
    December 17, 2011

    So what I get from all the troll’s logic (well really the one who shall not be named in case she appears like Beetlejuice) is that pertussis and measles oh and polio (her big three hated ones) did not exist before the advent of vaccines. It is the only thing that I can conclude from reading the answers here. Huh, I guess all those children who’s gravestones are publicly viewable had something else. Really. :/

  289. #289 Prometheus
    December 17, 2011

    I wonder if Ms. Messenger will do a follow-up to Melanie’s Marvellous Measles in a few years, something like Stephanie’s Super Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis?

    Seems like the logical progression, to me.

    Prometheus

  290. #290 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    So what I get from all the troll’s logic (well really the one who shall not be named in case she appears like Beetlejuice) is that pertussis and measles oh and polio (her big three hated ones) did not exist before the advent of vaccines.

    Natural infection predates all vaccines with the exception of VDPV and atypical measles.

  291. #291 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    Seems like the logical progression, to me.

    Your logical progression also includes Measles Vaccine’s Super Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis.

  292. #292 Agashem
    December 17, 2011

    And you avoid infections how?

  293. #293 Narad
    December 17, 2011

    Your logical progression also includes Measles Vaccine’s Super Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis.

    Wow, it tried to make a funny. With predictable results.

  294. #294 LW
    December 17, 2011

    I have a comment in moderation about Jean’s site — perhaps because I used the word “black” in close proximity to the word “salve”. I hope this sneaks by.

    But here’s another little-known scientific fact from Jean’s site:

    This is why a report by American morticians reported a few years ago stated that more than 50% of all Americans are 40% embalmed WHILE ALIVE OR LIVING! Yes, the living dead.

    For some strange reason there’s no link to the report. But this is the URL for Jean’s site (copy and paste — I don’t want to provoke moderation with a real link): http://www.siriushealth.org/?p=530

  295. #295 Prometheus
    December 17, 2011

    I realise this is a wasted effort, but if “Th1Th2″ could provide a citation for his/her/its implied statement that the measles vaccine can cause SSPE, I’d be very grateful. Not to mention very surprised, since I’ve searched for that very thing for over five years.

    So far as I’ve been able to determine, no case of SSPE has ever been definitively (e.g. by sequencing the viral genome) shown to come from the vaccine strain. Some cases of measles encephalitis have been traced to the vaccine strain – far less than the 1 per 1000 seen with “natural” (wild-type) measles – but no cases (yet) of SSPE.

    Of course, I don’t expect a logical answer from “Th1Th2″, but I wanted to give her/him/it the opportunity.

    Prometheus

  296. #296 LW
    December 17, 2011

    Oh, wow. Go to http://www.siriushealth.org/?p=520 and find that Orac’s post is reprinted in full. At least there’s a link to here.

  297. #297 Narad
    December 17, 2011

    So far as I’ve been able to determine, no case of SSPE has ever been definitively (e.g. by sequencing the viral genome) shown to come from the vaccine strain.

    That sort of burden only applies if one has the temerity to suggest that AFP isn’t synonymous with polio, silly.

  298. #298 Chris
    December 17, 2011

    So, now Jean is a plagiarist. Cute. It is clear she has never held an original thought in her life.

  299. #299 LW
    December 17, 2011

    To be fair, Chris, I think the context makes it clear that she’s not claiming Orac’s words as her own. Violating his common-law copyright, though, certainly.

  300. #300 Johnny
    December 17, 2011

    Looking around Jean’s web site, strictly for the entertainment value (there is some real funny stuff there), I came across Orac’s entire post above copied on
    http://www.siriushealth.org/?page_id=80 ,(about 3/4 down the page) complete with all links.

    It seems to me to go well beyond the fair use provisions of copyright law. However, as they are in the land down under, it may not be possible to force them to remove it (I know nothing about international copyright laws).

    Of course, the good thing is that visitors to their site will get a dose of Respectful Insolence that they may not be exposed to otherwise.

  301. #301 Johnny
    December 17, 2011

    Oh, wow. Go to http://www.siriushealth.org/?p=520 and find that Orac’s post is reprinted in full. At least there’s a link to here.

    D’oh. I missed LW’s post.

    I came straight here from Jean’s site and didn’t read the comments – Sorry.

  302. #302 Dangerous Bacon
    December 17, 2011

    “This is why a report by American morticians reported a few years ago stated that more than 50% of all Americans are 40% embalmed WHILE ALIVE OR LIVING! Yes, the living dead.”

    How many beers a day is that?

  303. #303 LW
    December 17, 2011

    Jean’s site is probably getting more attention than ever before thanks to all the skeptics going over for a giggle.

  304. #304 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    Prometheus,

    So far as I’ve been able to determine, no case of SSPE has ever been definitively (e.g. by sequencing the viral genome) shown to come from the vaccine strain. Some cases of measles encephalitis have been traced to the vaccine strain – far less than the 1 per 1000 seen with “natural” (wild-type) measles – but no cases (yet) of SSPE.

    How about brain autopsy? Schneck, 1968

  305. #305 Agashem
    December 17, 2011

    *sigh* Why don’t you just tell us? Obscure references to a journal/textbook/billboard of 1968 aren’t helping your cause nor our sanity…….:/

  306. #306 LW
    December 17, 2011

    1968 … hmm … 1968 … that would be forty-three years ago, wouldn’t it? Very shortly after the vaccine was introduced, when a whole lot of people who were vaccinated might have had the wild type disease? Why, yes, that’s right.

    Do you suppose there might have been some more study of this issue in the last forty-three years?

  307. #307 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    1968 … hmm … 1968 … that would be forty-three years ago, wouldn’t it? Very shortly after the vaccine was introduced, when a whole lot of people who were vaccinated might have had the wild type disease? Why, yes, that’s right.

    The deceased child had no history of natural measles but vaccination with live measles.

    Do you suppose there might have been some more study of this issue in the last forty-three years?

    Indeed there were some studies in this issue.

    In the following 5 years, several more reports of SSPE in individuals vaccinated against measles appeared

    Cho et al.,

  308. #308 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    Cho et al., 1973
    Gerson and Haslam, 1971
    Jabbour et al., 1972
    Klajman et al., 1973
    Landrigan and Witte, 1973
    Parker et al., 1970,
    Payne et al., 1969

  309. #309 Prometheus
    December 17, 2011

    Th1Th2 (#303):

    “How about brain autopsy? Schneck, 1968″

    Would that be Schneck SA. Vaccination with measles and central nervous system disease. Neurology 1968 Jan;18(1 Pt 2):78-82?

    To begin with, Schneck (1968) was looking at “SSPE” that developed within weeks of the administration of the measles vaccine. It is generally thought that the cases described in Schneck (1968) are either not SSPE or not related to the vaccination.

    In addition, Schneck (1968) was published about thirty years before genome sequencing was routinely done. Given how widespread measles vaccination is today, it seems strange that the only case reports of SSPE after measles vaccine would be from over forty years ago.

    I have to give “Th1Th2″ kudos for at least staying on topic. This is very encouraging!

    Prometheus

  310. #310 Narad
    December 17, 2011

    For a second, I thought Schneck was some oddball Germanic insult. Guess who else thinks this one is the bee’s knees: good ol’ Viera Scheibner.

  311. #311 Pareidolius
    December 17, 2011

    Well, ol’ Jean might want to take down all the illegal stock photos she has all over her bastion of batshit crazy. The proper authorities have been notified, but then again, I’ve been bitter like this since the vaccines made me all gay back in the 70s.

  312. #312 Narad
    December 17, 2011

    Indeed there were some studies in this issue.

    For those with better things to do than triangulate, Th1Th2’s “reference list” is simply every cite from the last paragraph of page 136 of Adverse Events Associated with Childhood Vaccines, which is to say, the odds are vanishingly small that it has actually read any of them.

  313. #313 Prometheus
    December 17, 2011

    I missed Thingy’s later citation dump – I note that the most recent of them is from 1973. Need I point out that genome sequencing wasn’t available – at all – back then?

    Since the incidence of SSPE fell dramatically following introduction of the measles vaccine – in every country where it was introduced – Thingy’s “logic” is swimming against the stream on this one.

    I have been trying to track down a single case of – and let me reiterate this part – sequence-proven vaccine strain SSPE for five years and haven’t been able to find even one. BTW, the lack of a history of wild-type measles isn’t “iron-clad proof” that someone hasn’t had measles – mild cases can be mis-diagnosed.

    So, since even Thingy can’t find a published report of sequence-proven vaccine-strain SSPE, I feel we can assume that they don’t exist.

    Thanks, “Th1Th2″.

    Prometheus

  314. #314 LW
    December 17, 2011

    Here’s a relevant comment about a study done in 1993, which is still a long time ago but was after development of PCR sequencing:

    A problem with the measles vaccine–and with many vaccines–is that one dose may not be enough to prevent an infection with the natural virus. Therefore, many children who did not receive booster shots of the vaccine were incompletely protected; several developed measles during the 1989-91 outbreak. Some parents blamed this on the measles vaccine, which also has been linked to other conditions, such as autism (more on that here). A current Journal of Infectious Diseases study (JID 192:1686-93) used brain tissue and measles virus typing to determine whether the measles vaccine strain or natural measles virus infection was responsible for these cases of SSPE.

    To do this, they took brain tissue from 11 patients diagnosed with SSPE, performed reverse-transcriptase PCR (necessary because measles is an RNA virus), and analyzed the sequences of the PCR products in order to determine the genotype of the measles virus. (Measles has 22 known genotypes; the vaccine strain, for example, is genotype A). None of the sequences matched the genotype A viruses–the vaccine was not causing SSPE.

    Doesn’t quite fit what Thingy — and the parents — claim.

  315. #315 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    So, since even Thingy can’t find a published report of sequence-proven vaccine-strain SSPE, I feel we can assume that they don’t exist.

    You’re wasting your time. Read the writing on the wall.

    Although application of new scientific methods, such as RNA sequencing, could be used to describe more completely the virus that causes SSP, the well-known genetic alterations of the virus from wild-type measles virus will confound interpretation of the data and make it unlikely that investigators will be able to determine whether there is an independent association between measles vaccine and the development of SSPE.

    Source: Adverse Events Associated with Childhood Vaccines, p 141

  316. #316 Grant
    December 17, 2011

    @241: I think you mean AdamG, who wrote comment @235 (I didn’t & I’m not gay either!)

  317. #317 LW
    December 17, 2011

    I found “Adverse Events Associated with Childhood Vaccines” very interesting. Page 141 in particular:

    It will be difficult to obtain other evidence for a causal relation between measles vaccine and SSPE. First, the number of cases of SSPE in the United States is now so low that detection of even moderately strong associations may be difficult.

    Sure is strange that, with millions of children vaccinated against measles every year, the number of cases of SSPE has fallen that low. It’s almost like the measles vaccine isn’t causing a problem. How low has the number fallen? Well, look at the previous page:

    There have been only two new cases of SSPE in U.S. citizens reported to the National Registry of Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis since 1989 (Paul R. Dyken, University of South Alabama, Mobile, personal communication, 1993) [so two in four years]. Neither patient had a history of natural measles infection. One patient was immunized at 15 months of age.

    It is likely that at least some patients with SSPE have had unrecognized measles infection prior to immunization, and that the SSPE is directly related to this measles infection. Evidence for this comes from Krugman et al. (1962), who reported that before the use of measles vaccine, 15 percent of children whose parents reported no history of measles were found to be immune to the infection. In addition, data on 375 children in the National Registry for Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis obtained from Modlin et al. (1977) indicated that four children who had SSPE but no history of measles or measles vaccination in fact had elevated measles virus antibody titers.

    And what was the number prior to vaccination? Check back on Page 135 and learn,

    Only 4.2 new cases of SSPE per year, on average, were reported from 1982 to 1986 (Dyken et al., 1989). This is in contrast to the 48.6 new cases of SSPE per year, on average, reported from 1967 to 1971.

    Of course, the cases from 1967 to 1971 would be within the time period that could be due to the harmless wild type virus prior to the vaccine.

    I found this report while searching for Thingy’s unexplained “Schneck, 1968″. It looks really interesting.

  318. #318 Grant
    December 17, 2011

    @295 (LW) + @299-300: Some people & some advocacy sites seem to routinely copy other’s work in it’s entirety – not really the right thing to do, but that doesn’t seem to stop them. (Even my little blog had a XMRV-CFS group nick one of my posts; wasn’t happy about how they used it either!)

  319. #319 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    Doesn’t quite fit what Thingy — and the parents — claim.

    Let’s see…

    JSTOR: Temporary Error

    Like I said, it’s not for the best interest of the vaccine.

  320. #320 Narad
    December 17, 2011

    You’re wasting your time. Read the writing on the wall.

    Oh, I think everyone has. You’re really providing a luscious bounty of immediate and total failure for the holiday season.

  321. #321 LW
    December 17, 2011

    I started wondering if there was any authoritative report on vaccine adverse events that was later than 1994. My google-fu isn’t so hot, but I found this one:

    Adverse Effects of Vaccines: Evidence and Causality (2011)

    It’s in pre-publication so all you get are scans, but the Causality Conclusion Tables are very interesting. Contrary to antivaxxers’ unsupported assertions, notice that a number of adverse effects are labelled to indicate that the evidence “convincingly supports” or “favors acceptance” of a causal connection.

  322. #322 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    Since the incidence of SSPE fell dramatically following introduction of the measles vaccine – in every country where it was introduced – Thingy’s “logic” is swimming against the stream on this one.

    I wouldn’t be so sure about that when you have an epidemic of mental retards.

    This is another AFP-Polio diagnostic substitution.

  323. #323 Narad
    December 17, 2011

    This is another AFP-Polio diagnostic substitution.

    Yah, you telegraphed this from a mile away. It makes even less sense than the previous iteration, and not just because you have reversed your own diagnostic demands (which didn’t make any sense to start with, and which you failed to defend) but also because you don’t even have a perceived increase in SSPE to point at.

  324. #324 Narad
    December 17, 2011

    Let’s see…

    JSTOR: Temporary Error

    Why are you trying to get it from JSTOR when it’s open-access directly from JID? Oh, right:

    Like I said, it’s not for the best interest of the vaccine.

    This is really hilarious stuff, Th1Th2, keep it up.

  325. #325 LW
    December 17, 2011

    Well, see, Narad, regular SSPE is inevitably fatal, but the new improved SSPE from vaccines isn’t fatal at all, but just creates “mental retards” in Thingy’s charming terminology.

  326. #326 Science Mom
    December 17, 2011

    Source: Adverse Events Associated with Childhood Vaccines, p 141. 1994

    FTFY. Not a single case of SSPE has been measles vaccine virus, nor genetically diverged from wild-type measles to be questionable, anywhere.

  327. #327 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    December 17, 2011

    @Th1Th2 “I wouldn’t be so sure about that when you have an epidemic of mental retards.”

    Hi there bigot.

    You bring up a term you don’t understand: RNAseq – it’s awesome stuff and getting cheaper every day but it doesn’t have a huge advantage over conventional RNA amplification – RT-Q-PCR schemes for microbial forensics. It may someday soon, but you’re simply muddying the water as you backpedal.

  328. #328 Narad
    December 17, 2011

    It may someday soon, but you’re simply muddying the water as you backpedal.

    Th1Th2 never backpedals. It’s an illusion created by rushing headlong into less and less tenable positions.

  329. #329 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    FTFY. Not a single case of SSPE has been measles vaccine virus, nor genetically diverged from wild-type measles to be questionable, anywhere.

    That’s demonstrably false.

    Full-length sequence analysis of subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) virus, a mutant of measles virus, isolated from brain tissues of a patient shortly after onset of SSPE.

    Microbiol Immunol. 2006;50(7):525-34.

    Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) virus, a measles virus (MeV) mutant, was isolated from brain tissues of a patient shortly after the clinical onset, and the entire viral genome was sequenced. The virus, named SSPE-Kobe-1, formed syncytia on B95a and Vero/SLAM cells without producing cell-free infectious virus particles, which is characteristic of SSPE virus.

    If VDPV is to OPV, SSPE virus is to MV.`

  330. #330 LW
    December 17, 2011

    I’m not sure what Science Mom meant by “nor genetically diverged from wild-type measles to be questionable”; maybe she can explain, but I think she probably meant a variant that was somewhere between vaccine-type and wild-type so that it was impossible to tell which it actually came from.

    Thingy didn’t have the courtesy to give a link to the paper cited, but I found the abstract various places, like here. And what to my wondering eyes does appear? “Phylogenetic analysis classified SSPE-Kobe-1 into genotype D3.” As I cited before, “Measles has 22 known genotypes; the vaccine strain, for example, is genotype A”.

    SSPE virus is derived from MV all right — measles virus. Not measles vaccine.

  331. #331 Science Mom
    December 17, 2011

    That’s demonstrably false.

    Full-length sequence analysis of subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) virus, a mutant of measles virus, isolated from brain tissues of a patient shortly after onset of SSPE.

    Microbiol Immunol. 2006;50(7):525-34.

    Shit-for-brains, you just demonstrated how utterly wrong and clueless you are (emphasis mine). Stick to counting the divots in your ceiling tiles, much safer. Try reading full texts next time too.

    I’m not sure what Science Mom meant by “nor genetically diverged from wild-type measles to be questionable”; maybe she can explain, but I think she probably meant a variant that was somewhere between vaccine-type and wild-type so that it was impossible to tell which it actually came from.

    @ LW, simply that no SSPE virus that has ever been sequenced has had so many mutations that it is thought to be measles vaccine virus. They have always been wild-type.

  332. #332 TBruce
    December 17, 2011

    an epidemic of mental retards.

    FOAD, troll.

    Isn’t it about time to bring on the Banhammer?

  333. #333 LW
    December 17, 2011

    Right, Science Mom, that’s what I was trying to convey. Certainly SSPE-Kobe-1 doesn’t look like measles vaccine virus, so Thingy is an idiot for citing it. Well, the last three words are unnecessary. Thingy is an idiot. Also a bigot.

  334. #334 Th1Th2
    December 17, 2011

    Shit-for-brains, you just demonstrated how utterly wrong and clueless you are (emphasis mine). Stick to counting the divots in your ceiling tiles, much safer. Try reading full texts next time too.

    So you didn”t believe that LAMV was a product of mutations done in the lab? I see where you got lost.

  335. #335 Narad
    December 17, 2011

    So you didn”t believe that LAMV was a product of mutations done in the lab? I see where you got lost.

    This is a veritable piñata de Navidad.

  336. #336 Antaeus Feldspar
    December 17, 2011

    @295 (LW) + @299-300: Some people & some advocacy sites seem to routinely copy other’s work in it’s entirety – not really the right thing to do, but that doesn’t seem to stop them. (Even my little blog had a XMRV-CFS group nick one of my posts; wasn’t happy about how they used it either!)

    I have to confess, I have some admiration that Jean was willing to put up a post so critical of her approach. Copying the whole thing without permission isn’t the right thing, of course, but between doing that, and Age of Autism’s famous deletion of comments that don’t agree with their party line, I know which one I consider to have more integrity.

  337. #337 LW
    December 17, 2011

    I trust any lurkers see why it’s pointless to try to carry on a discussion with Thingy and so we mostly just point and laugh.

    Claiming that herd immunity is a Creationist fantasy because it was recently mentioned by someone named Adam is going into my list of Thingy’s greatest hits, though.

  338. #338 Grant
    December 17, 2011

    @333 (Antaeus Feldspar) I take your point, but—IMO—it’s not just that they put it up, but how it’s put up. In my case, for example, from memory my post was copied with the intention that discussion would happen only on their site under their terms. Similarly I’ve seen people put up other’s stuff, but precede it with a “summary” of it that is clearly intended to bias their readers view of it. I guess that’s all many of their readers read before firing off a comment agreeing with the writer’s “summary”. In her case she doesn’t do too badly on that front, other than that the question she precedes Orac’s article with doesn’t have anything to do with the article and, to me, reads like shifting the target and presumes that vaccines are the issue. (“My question is, why do they have to include such poisons in the Vaccine Mix ……. i.e. Mercury and Formaldehyde ??? both highly Toxic substances, there has to be a safer carrier than these to stabilize the Vaccine.”)

  339. #339 dedicated lurker
    December 17, 2011

    Claiming that herd immunity is a Creationist fantasy because it was recently mentioned by someone named Adam is going into my list of Thingy’s greatest hits, though.

    It’s right up there with “paralysis = polio” and “toddlers know better than to walk in dirt and stay on the sidewalk.”

  340. #340 Narad
    December 17, 2011

    It’s right up there with “paralysis = polio” and “toddlers know better than to walk in dirt and stay on the sidewalk.”

    I’m still quite fond of the number 200 having only one possible referent if found in some sort of semantic proximity.

  341. #341 LW
    December 17, 2011

    Narad, I must have missed that one. Share? I really want it for my collection.

  342. #342 lilady
    December 17, 2011

    @Hey Zeus is my Homeboy: Thingy’s unfortunate reference to developmentally disabled people is a deliberately nasty remark.

    It has been hanging around (trolling) on this blog long enough to know that many of us have children who are developmental disabled. And, those who don’t have children with disabilities also take great offense at Its nasty words when referring to people with disabilities.

    My deceased son was profound developmentally disabled and he was a delightful happy child who brought joy into our lives and the lives of everyone who ever met him.

    How much better my life is to have had for 28 years…as opposed to how the poor hapless woman who gave birth to the odious Thingy must feel.

    It is just a delusional, nasty, POS troll that needs “terminal disinfection.”

  343. #343 Narad
    December 18, 2011

    Narad, I must have missed that one.

    Oh, that was recent. It starts here and drags on, with Th1Th2 failing to grasp that “200 viable bacterial organisms per mL” in Dryvax has nothing to do with the similarly denominated antigenic tally and then perseverating away.

  344. #344 Chris
    December 18, 2011

    I am thinking many of you need to work on your ignoring skills. Seriously, who thinks anyone is worth dealing with after declaring toddlers know to stay on a “safe” sidewalk? The linked post is over a year old, all you have to do is link to it and say that Thingy is crazy. Just ignore her.

    Yes, I know I tried to deal with her in the last few months, but I got over it. Though I learned that not only is she delusional, she is also a manipulative liar. So, really! Don’t bother.

    I noticed that Little Augie posted after a comment I made on an old thread (had to do with David Servan-Schreiber and his self-delusional book). I have not even looked at it, and I really don’t care. He is an idiot, and I actually do ignore him.

    Just note that these people are idiots and then ignore them. Thingy, Jean, Little Augie, Ms. Messenger, and Meryl Dorey are all idiots. That is a statement of fact. We don’t need to debate them on the details.

  345. #345 Narad
    December 18, 2011

    So, really! Don’t bother.

    The best policy, of course, is to never engage it, but that simply doesn’t seem to happen. I like to think that my friends down at the Service Center have had some success at stemming that leak, but once it’s in play by whatever means, there’s no particular reason that I see not to help it dig so long as there’s some entertainment value for the niche hobbyist.

  346. #346 lilady
    December 18, 2011

    Has anyone found a case of SSPE associated with measles vaccine? I have been viewing PubMed citations and haven’t found any cases of SSPE associated with the vaccine…and quite a number of cases associated with the actual measles virus.

    Recently the research has been directed toward familial SSPE where siblings who were infected with measles virus later developed SSPE. There have been studies of mono zygotic twins with histories of actual infections with the virus and only one twin developed SSPE.

    During my (minimal) research into SSPE, I found references to diagnostic criteria for SSPE where three of the following must be present to make the diagnosis:

    * A typical clinical picture: Personality and behavioral changes, worsening school performance, followed by myoclonic seizures, paresis, dyspraxias, memory impairment, language difficulties, blindness, and eventually obtundation, stupor, and coma;
    * Characteristic EEG changes
    * Elevated CSF globulin levels greater than 20% of total CSF protein
    * Raised titers of measles antibodies in blood and CSF
    * Typical histopathological finding in brain biopsy or autopsy.

    Of course, the closer we come to obliterating measles from the face of the earth…the fewer cases of SSPE will occur for researchers to study.

  347. #347 herr doktor bimler
    December 18, 2011

    Yes, I know I tried to deal with her in the last few months, but I got over it. Though I learned that not only is she delusional, she is also a manipulative liar.

    I am happy to believe that $TROLL is not really crazy and stupid, but enjoys making crazy stupid self-refuting statements for the pleasure of watching some smarter person go to the trouble of refuting them.
    Either way, SIWOTI.

  348. #348 LW
    December 18, 2011

    That abstract (I’m only able to read the abstract) said that the SSPE virus is a mutant measles virus. Could it be mutating de novo each time? So both twins get the same strain of regular wild-type measles and it then mutates in one and not the other? Just curious since it seems there aren’t clusters of SSPE.

  349. #349 LW
    December 18, 2011

    “Thingy, Jean, Little Augie, Ms. Messenger, and Meryl Dorey are all idiots.”

    Chris, I don’t think Jean belongs in between Thingy and Little Augie. She’s an ignorant New-Agey type, but she didn’t come over here to insult and deliberately offend Orac and his readers, nor did she misrepresent what he said, over on her own site. I actually feel a bit sorry for her, stumbling around in ignorance.

  350. #350 Militant Agnostic
    December 18, 2011

    LW @346

    Chris, I don’t think Jean belongs in between Thingy and Little Augie. She’s an ignorant New-Agey type, but she didn’t come over here to insult and deliberately offend Orac and his readers, nor did she misrepresent what he said, over on her own site. I actually feel a bit sorry for her, stumbling around in ignorance.

    On the other hand, Jean is much more likely to have an actual body count. It is also takes a special arrogance to achieve that level of wrong, although I guess the internet helps. Unlike the trolls, she is in the business of making money from stupidity.

  351. #351 Th1Th2
    December 18, 2011

    @ LW, simply that no SSPE virus that has ever been sequenced has had so many mutations that it is thought to be measles vaccine virus. They have always been wild-type.

    Right, Science Mom, that’s what I was trying to convey. Certainly SSPE-Kobe-1 doesn’t look like measles vaccine virus, so Thingy is an idiot for citing it. Well, the last three words are unnecessary. Thingy is an idiot. Also a bigot.

    That was only an inference based on the circulating WT measles virus and it does not mean the same genotype had caused the measles.

  352. #352 LW
    December 18, 2011

    Militant Agnostic, you’re right, of course. Still, she isn’t a troll, and belongs over with Messenger and Dorey, who likely also have body counts.

  353. #353 Science Mom
    December 18, 2011

    That was only an inference based on the circulating WT measles virus and it does not mean the same genotype had caused the measles.

    Oh, trying your hand at molecular biology now? No evidence, none, that it was a vaccine strain. Your own reference demonstrates a wild-type strain. Torture the data all you like shit-for-brains, you’re an idiot.

  354. #354 Th1Th2
    December 18, 2011

    Oh, that was recent. It starts here and drags on, with Th1Th2 failing to grasp that “200 viable bacterial organisms per mL” in Dryvax has nothing to do with the similarly denominated antigenic tally and then perseverating away.

    Offit the Crook was referring to genes, not antigens. You should know the difference.

  355. #355 LW
    December 18, 2011

    #342:

    The best policy, of course, is to never engage it, but that simply doesn’t seem to happen. I like to think that my friends down at the Service Center have had some success at stemming that leak, but once it’s in play by whatever means, there’s no particular reason that I see not to help it dig so long as there’s some entertainment value for the niche hobbyist.

    It’s not merely entertaining, it’s educational. For instance, if I hadn’t gone Googling for “Schneck, 1968″, I would never have found the article on “Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis: More Cases of This Fatal Disease Are Prevented by Measles Immunization than Was Previously Recognized” (full text at http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/192/10/1686.long ). It’s really fascinating to read, and makes it clear how amazing modern science really is. That report was from 2005, by the way; I don’t know why I wrote 1993 previously. Thinking about something else, I guess.

  356. #356 LW
    December 18, 2011

    For anyone who’s actually interested in the relationship between measles vaccine and SSPE (as opposed to trolls making it up), there’s this review: “Review of the effect of measles vaccination on the epidemiology of SSPE” (full text at http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/6/1334.full.pdf+html ).

  357. #357 Th1Th2
    December 18, 2011

    Oh, trying your hand at molecular biology now? No evidence, none, that it was a vaccine strain. Your own reference demonstrates a wild-type strain. Torture the data all you like shit-for-brains, you’re an idiot.

    First, I don’t have any information that the individual was ever vaccinated for measles do you? Second, that article is in response to refute your claim that there is not a case of SSPE with “genetically diverged from wild-type measles”. You made a blooper there.

  358. #358 Th1Th2
    December 18, 2011

    In addition, Schneck (1968) was published about thirty years before genome sequencing was routinely done. Given how widespread measles vaccination is today, it seems strange that the only case reports of SSPE after measles vaccine would be from over forty years ago.

    You should realize that SSPE surveillance started on 1969 after the introduction of measles vaccine and the diagnostic criteria require none of your sequencing. Which would also make you wonder how crude vaccines were made before without genome sequencing.

    This is another AFP surveillance-type propaganda wherein disastrous effects of the vaccines are secretly being monitored. They never learned. Like polio, there’s no way in hell measles will be eradicated.

  359. #359 LW
    December 18, 2011

    Lurkers will, I hope, note Thingy’s deceptively incomplete quotation in #354 of Science Mom, who actually said “Not a single case of SSPE has been measles vaccine virus, nor genetically diverged from wild-type measles to be questionable, anywhere.” I admit I found that confusing and tried to clarify, and then Science Mom also clarified, “no SSPE virus that has ever been sequenced has had so many mutations that it is thought to be measles vaccine virus”.

    Lurkers should note, also, that this is a pure red herring to draw readers off of Thingy’s ignorant statement in #348, “That was only an inference based on the circulating WT measles virus and it does not mean the same genotype had caused the measles.”

    Thingy obviously doesn’t understand that the virus causing SSPE in these patients was actually retrieved and sequenced, and proven to be the same as the wild-type measles virus circulating at the time that the patient was believed to have been infected. And, in any case, the virus causing SSPE wasn’t the measles vaccine virus, which was the issue in question.

    Thingy needs to work on its reading comprehension.

  360. #360 Th1Th2
    December 18, 2011

    Thingy obviously doesn’t understand that the virus causing SSPE in these patients was actually retrieved and sequenced, and proven to be the same as the wild-type measles virus circulating at the time that the patient was believed to have been infected. And, in any case, the virus causing SSPE wasn’t the measles vaccine virus, which was the issue in question.

    The SSPE virus was compared to the circulating WT measles virus at that time, it does not mean it had caused the primary measles infection considering that SSPE virus is a mutant measles virus, not the same as the WT. Nobody knows about the vaccination status.

    When compared with an MeV field isolate of the same genotype (Ich-B strain), SSPE-Kobe-1 exhibited mutation rates of 0.8-1.6% at the nucleotide level in each of the proteincoding regions of the viral genome.

  361. #361 lilady
    December 18, 2011

    Ignoring certain nasty trolls who are not delusional has worked…Chris’ and my personal nasty troll comes to mind.

    Then there is the Wakefield apologist troll who at various times poses as a “doctor”, “professor” and “sensei” who has been successfully debated and now deserves to be ignored.

    It is so tempting to correct the real delusional nasty ones (Thingy) but it is also an exercise in futility. If it raises a point of interest…just post around it, because it constantly lies, changes the definition/thrust of its arguments and desires the “engagement” with normal intelligent posters.

    In addition to the excellent link provided by LW for a thorough scientific analysis of reported SSPE occurring during outbreaks and Science Mom’s commentary…I noticed that “paraffin” blocks of brain tissue were retrieved and the measles virus was analyzed using modern testing modalities. Small wonder then, why paraffin blocks of supposed measles viruses or measles vaccines in gastrointestinal tissues were “lost/went missing” in the Wakefield debacle.

  362. #362 lilady
    December 18, 2011

    I forgot to add to my posting above, that the delusional one is thoroughly warped. It has not one grain or scintilla of decency, as evidenced by its remarks about developmentally disabled people and the death of an infant in Australia from pertussis.

  363. #363 LW
    December 18, 2011

    Good point, lilady. Those paraffin blocks would be really damning.

    I’ve been responding to the troll (*hangs head in shame*) because in the course of checking what it says, I’ve learned interesting things that I would not otherwise have learned, and I do feel like sharing them. I’ve been restraining myself, though.

    Even the most ignorant and/or dishonest trolls may lead to gold nuggets. Years ago a Creationist gave me one of Behe’s books. I dutifully started to read it, but when he quoted Lynn Margulis as an opponent of evolution, it was obvious even from the out-of-context quote that this was a real scientist who thought that Darwin had missed something, but certainly didn’t dispute the reality of evolution. I trotted over to the nearest bookstore, found a book by Margulis, and learned about endosymbiosis, which I had not known of before. Mitochondria are bacteria domesticated billions of years ago? Wow!

    So when the troll makes some claim, I expect as a matter of course that it is lying, but I also hope to learn something new and interesting by investigating its lies.

  364. #364 Chris
    December 18, 2011

    LW:

    Still, she isn’t a troll, and belongs over with Messenger and Dorey, who likely also have body counts.

    Actually, I called her an idiot, not a troll. Also I do believe it is perfectly okay to talk about Thingy, but to not engage.

  365. #365 LW
    December 18, 2011

    You did call her an idiot, but you put her between two trolls. It’s a very trivial point, of course.

  366. #366 Chris
    December 18, 2011

    Oh, well. I didn’t mean to, especially since those two are in a different nasty league than she is. I do concede there is an entertainment factor, especially with the Medicien Man and his many morphs.

  367. #367 LW
    December 18, 2011

    Oh, yeah, there are so many trolls …

    The pothead was pretty funny at first, if I recall correctly, though he deteriorated rapidly. And imagining the self-proclaimed professor actually trying to teach a class is amusing too.

  368. #368 Th1Th2
    December 18, 2011

    From the article above#352

    This is how they hide the measles let alone SSPE.

    The measles virus genotypes detected in brain tissue specimens obtained from patients with SSPE in the present study represented wild-type viruses (tables 1 and 2). Therefore, the patients with SSPE who did not have a history of measles either had a subclinical measles virus infection or an undiagnosed case of measles. For example, 1 patient (table 2, patient 8), who, during infancy, had resided in Okinawa City, had a history of measles vaccination at 17 months of age but had no record of having had measles. However, the medical history of this patient included a febrile illness with rash that occurred at 15 months of age and that was described as “roseola”; the occurrence of this rash coincided with the time that the patient spent in Japan and is consistent with the identification of virus of genotype D5, which is known to have been circulating in Japan in the early 1990s [37]. Our data support previous epidemiologic and genetic studies that found no evidence that measles vaccine virus can cause SSPE [6, 9, 14, 15]

    Any hints for vaccine-derived SSPE must be met with a corresponding WT virus. It was pre-determined all the time.

  369. #369 LW
    December 18, 2011

    Observe once more in #364 that Thingy fails to grasp that the SSPE virus genotype was identified by genomic sequencing, and that the researchers then looked at the patient’s history to see if it showed an undiagnosed case of measles. Even if there had been nothing at all in the patient’s history, the fact that the virus was of genotype D5 showed that it derived from wild-type measles and could not derive from measles vaccine virus, which is always of genotype A. Anyone who is actually interested in the question might want to look at http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/6/1334.full.pdf+html (previously mentioned in #353), in particular “Table 4 Summary of viral RNA sequencing of measles virus isolated from SSPE patients”.

    A *lot* of research has gone into this.

  370. #370 Denice Walter
    December 18, 2011

    The only useful purpose that the trolls serve, other than for amusement, is for providing avenues for SB counterpoint and exposition ( which doesn’t exist for NaturalNews articles, ProgressiveRadioNetwork broadcasts, or AoA posts) although I sometimes wonder if they might convincingly sway a few lurkers who are leaning that way already.

    Here’s another issue: should we divide *les gens de woo* ( or is it “wu”, like *deja wu”?) into leaders ( sellers**) and followers (buyers**) based on whether they profit either monetarily or through ego inflation? Since they are all capable of doing educational damage- perhaps the impassioned acolyte who narrates a tale of woe followed by enlightment and redemption through green juices is a better advertisement than any website, info-mercial, or “documentary”. Lots of them out there.

    Concerning the lurkers- that great un-tapped resource burgeoning just beyond our view- while I believe that they are normally distributed ( thus, some are woo-freindly) I would guess that if they spend time and get involved, many… most can be reached. Because people are capable of *learning*- and when they recognise that this information is in *their* interest, they’ll put it to use. One of alt med’s greatest tropes is that SB people are greedy, self-serving, elitist,… funny but I see an entirely different picture. Information is not to be hoarded and distributed to a select few at a profit but to be *shared*. People can benefit even if they don’t have the time and money to pursue higher education by becoming part of the culture that attempts to understand reality ( whatever that is) through research.

    ** in both senses of those terms.

  371. #371 Th1Th2
    December 18, 2011

    So Chris, how come you have not explained the reason for the dramatic reduction in measles incidence after the introduction of the measles vaccine in the 1960’s?

    Is it because it was pre-determined that they should not include subclinical or asymptomatic measles infection caused by the vaccine in the diagnostic criteria?

    But you can’t hide mental retards can you?

  372. #372 lilady
    December 18, 2011

    Chris reminds us of her “personal trolls” and she is 1-2-3 or more “up on me”…depending, of course, if we count the sock puppets of Medicien Man. If I recall “Medicien Man” when called out about his misspelling of medicine…made some sort of lame excuse. Of course, there is a certain benefit to reading that troll’s posts…to observe his crank magnetism about politics, race, religion and assorted other commentary.

    Pothead troll probably set the all time record for number of sock puppets and really got obscene with me late at night…while Orac was away from his blog.

    Who could ever forget One Queer Fish who was also a filthy mouthed troll?

    There is also a side benefit derived from ignoring Thingy…it gets more outrageous with its posts. I love to observe the Thing’s posts when it is frustrated.

    It’s a bit early for New Year’s resolutions…but let’s try to abstain from communicating directly with Thingy and other trolls by talking about them and around them.

  373. #373 Narad
    December 18, 2011

    Offit the Crook was referring to genes, not antigens. You should know the difference.

    That’s funny, the utterly baseless position that you backed into halfway through was that “Offit the Crook” was referring to bacteria and pretending that they were antigens. Do try to keep your own whimsical defenses straight.

  374. #374 LW
    December 18, 2011

    “So Chris, how come you have not explained the reason for the dramatic reduction in measles incidence after the introduction of the measles vaccine in the 1960’s?”

    Yeah, come on, Chris! How do you explain that a vaccine prevents disease?

    *dissolves in giggles*

  375. #375 Science Mom
    December 18, 2011

    First, I don’t have any information that the individual was ever vaccinated for measles do you? Second, that article is in response to refute your claim that there is not a case of SSPE with “genetically diverged from wild-type measles”. You made a blooper there.

    It doesn’t matter one whit as to whether the individual was vaccinated or had a known case of measles, in fact, serves as blinding for investigators. What matters is what strain is sequenced and genotyped and none have ever been vaccine-strain.

    Nice try to twist my quote to suit your own deranged purposes but as you can see (Thanks LW) you failed. You’re an idiot and a lying one at that.

  376. #376 Chris
    December 18, 2011

    Funny thing, that is exactly the question I ask certain anti-vaxers. They come in blazing with the statement “vaccines did not protect us”, and then when presented with actual census data showing that measles incidence dropped by 90% between 1960 and 1970, they go into all sorts of contortions to not give the real answer: vaccines.

  377. #377 Th1Th2
    December 18, 2011

    Krebiozen,

    Asymptomatic and non-transmissible infections were bad enough, now I have to worry about rare, generally benign, self-limited, non-recurrent syndromes SSPE too?

    You asked for it.

  378. #378 LW
    December 18, 2011

    Krebiozen,

    Asymptomatic and non-transmissible infections were bad enough, now I have to worry about rare, generally benign, self-limited, non-recurrent syndromes SSPE too?

    You asked for it.

    Oh, my, this is too funny. The troll produces absolutely no evidence that measles vaccine virus has ever caused a single case of SSPE; an expert, Prometheus, says he’s been looking for such a case for five years and hasn’t found it; I cite a very thorough review from 2007 which concludes that

    Evidence does not suggest that measles-containing vaccines can cause SSPE; in individual cases with a history of vaccine and no known natural infection all evidence points to wild virus being the cause.

    Measles-containing vaccines do not appear to: accelerate the course of SSPE; trigger SSPE; or cause SSPE in a person with an established benign persistent wild measles infection.

    And then the troll comes back telling Krebiozen to worry about SSPE from measles-containing vaccines!

    Is this Candid Camera? Theater of the Absurd, maybe?

  379. #379 Th1Th2
    December 18, 2011

    That’s funny, the utterly baseless position that you backed into halfway through was that “Offit the Crook” was referring to bacteria and pretending that they were antigens. Do try to keep your own whimsical defenses straight.

    Honestly, I did not even know why a smallpox vaccine, knowing that it’s a virus vaccine, would contain “200 bacterial organisms” that only a mad scientist would ever do. But I knew beforehand, Offit the Crook was a lunatic for the spurious gene counting he made for smallpox and whole-cell pertussis vaccines.

    Not giving a fair shake when someone is asking for the number of antigens.

  380. #380 Lawrence
    December 18, 2011

    Even though we’ve gone well past the “point and laugh” phase of insane troll, it is still fun to point and laugh at the various contortions she goes through – and jumping from refuted point to refuted point, as if we’d forget the thorough debunking each one had received.

    She’s obviously getting desperate – or just plain crazier over time.

  381. #381 LW
    December 18, 2011

    In the thread where Thingy brought up the 200 bacterial organisms (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/12/an_anti-vaccine_fantasy.php#comment-6093795 ), I’m not sure that anyone ever explained what that was all about.

    Its own link to its source didn’t work for me but I found what is probably the same thing at http://www.vaclib.org/basic/dryvax.htm :

    DRYVAX, SMALLPOX VACCINE, DRIED, is prepared from calf lymph. The calf lymph is purified, concentrated, and dried by lyophilization. During processing, not more than 100 units of polymyxin B sulfate, 200 micrograms of dihydrostreptomycin sulfate, 200 micrograms of chlortetracycline hydrochloride, and 100 micrograms of neomycin sulfate per mL are added, and trace amounts of these antibiotics may be present in the final product. The reconstituted vaccine has been shown by appropriate test methods to contain not more than 200 viable bacterial organisms per mL.

    In other words, in the course of preparing the smallpox vaccine, they used various antibiotics to kill off any bacteria that might be in there from the calf lymph in which it was prepared. Unfortunately, antibiotics aren’t perfect and there might be some live bacteria still in there, but they test the vaccine and find “not more than 200 viable bacterial organisms per mL.”

    So the vile troll is deliberately miscontruing the plain meaning of words. No surprise there.

  382. #382 Th1Th2
    December 18, 2011

    Oh, my, this is too funny. The troll produces absolutely no evidence that measles vaccine virus has ever caused a single case of SSPE;

    Yo’ blind? Schneck, 1968. This is the prelude to CDC’s SSPE surveillance. Genome sequencing at that time is immaterial.

    Evidence does not suggest that measles-containing vaccines can cause SSPE; in individual cases with a history of vaccine and no known natural infection all evidence points to wild virus being the cause.

    The genome the was sequenced was similar to the circulating WT virus during the outbreak. There is no evidence that it had caused primary measles infection. Hence, this…

    Measles-containing vaccines do not appear to: accelerate the course of SSPE; trigger SSPE; or cause SSPE in a person with an established benign persistent wild measles infection.

    I concur with this. Because SSPE is a consequence of primary measles infection either by WT or VT; it cannot be caused by measles re-infection. So whichever comes first will be the culprit. Hence, they had submitted brain samples of SSPE subjects with no history of natural measles but with a history of measles vaccination. It is not in their interest to blame the vaccine.

    If you’re denying that measles vaccines can cause SSPE, then logically, you must deny that WT measles can cause SSPE.

  383. #383 LW
    December 18, 2011

    Who knows what evils lurk in the brains of men? The Thingy knows!

    Experts who’ve devoted their careers to studying disease spend months reviewing every report of SSPE that they can get their hands on, and they conclude that

    Evidence does not suggest that measles-containing vaccines can cause SSPE; in individual cases with a history of vaccine and no known natural infection all evidence points to wild virus being the cause.

    But the Thingy knows the truth!

    Stay tuned tomorrow, kids, when the Thingy will reveal the fate of Judge Crater.

  384. #384 Phila
    December 18, 2011

    I am aware of an autism epidemic that no one ever heard of when I was growing up.

    I’ve very carefully scanned 19th- and early 20th-century medical literature for mentions of the “herpes virus,” to no avail. The only thing I can conclude is that it was manufactured in the laboratories of the Third Reich circa 1940.

  385. #385 Th1Th2
    December 18, 2011

    Funny thing, that is exactly the question I ask certain anti-vaxers. They come in blazing with the statement “vaccines did not protect us”, and then when presented with actual census data showing that measles incidence dropped by 90% between 1960 and 1970, they go into all sorts of contortions to not give the real answer: vaccines.

    What had dropped was the clinical presentation of measles while the majority and the uninfected were deliberately infected through inoculation resulting to asymptomatic or subclinical measles which are not reported thus were not included in the incidence rate.

    And that’s how you become a delusional liar Chris.

  386. #386 Narad
    December 18, 2011

    So much for “If [sic] VDPV is to OPV, SSPE virus is to MV.”

  387. #387 Phila
    December 18, 2011

    /Oxygen is needed to neutralise free radicals

    Wait a minute. What?

    Please detail the relevant chemical reactions here. That should be simple enough, right?

  388. #388 Science Mom
    December 18, 2011

    This is how they hide the measles let alone SSPE.

    The measles virus genotypes detected in brain tissue specimens obtained from patients with SSPE in the present study represented wild-type viruses (tables 1 and 2). Therefore, the patients with SSPE who did not have a history of measles either had a subclinical measles virus infection or an undiagnosed case of measles. For example, 1 patient (table 2, patient 8), who, during infancy, had resided in Okinawa City, had a history of measles vaccination at 17 months of age but had no record of having had measles. However, the medical history of this patient included a febrile illness with rash that occurred at 15 months of age and that was described as “roseola”; the occurrence of this rash coincided with the time that the patient spent in Japan and is consistent with the identification of virus of genotype D5, which is known to have been circulating in Japan in the early 1990s [37]. Our data support previous epidemiologic and genetic studies that found no evidence that measles vaccine virus can cause SSPE [6, 9, 14, 15]

    Oh look, poor old shit-for-brains can’t even cherry-pick a study to support her claims. Considering SFB didn’t conduct this survey, the proper credit goes to Bellini et al. an excellent epidemiologist. http://www.jstor.org/pss/20179999

    Yo’ blind? Schneck, 1968. This is the prelude to CDC’s SSPE surveillance. Genome sequencing at that time is immaterial.

    You would have to have it be immaterial to conform to your torturous claims, but genotyping is at the very crux of your claim that measles vaccine causes SSPE yet no measles vaccine virus or variant can be found. History of illness or vaccination is not enough to determine the viral strain.

  389. #389 LW
    December 18, 2011

    If you’re denying that measles vaccines can cause SSPE, then logically, you must deny that WT measles can cause SSPE.

    If you’re denying that ostriches can fly, then logically, you must deny that any bird can fly.

    /Oxygen is needed to neutralise free radicals

    Wait a minute. What?

    Please detail the relevant chemical reactions here. That should be simple enough, right?

    It’s the same chemistry in which lemons are alkaline.

  390. #390 Dangerous Bacon
    December 18, 2011

    Say Orac, it’s neat that persistent trolls are driving traffic to RI and providing you with extra income, but when do we minions get a bigger cut of the take?

    We haven’t had a pay increase in like, forever.

  391. #391 lilady
    December 18, 2011

    SFB Troll redefines what disease is, what a virus is, variant strains of measles and the incidence of SSPE…depending on what passes through its brown matter brain material.

    Mere mortals from the planet Earth, do not have brown matter brain material. When is the alien SFB Troll returning to the planet Htrae or its cardboard box crib on Earth streets, where it usually “resides”?

  392. #392 dedicated lurker
    December 18, 2011

    Stay tuned tomorrow, kids, when the Thingy will reveal the fate of Judge Crater.

    Interestingly enough, his body could not be identified even if it was discovered. No relatives alive are close enough to make a DNA match, and since he wore full dentures, a dental match isn’t possible.

  393. #393 LW
    December 18, 2011

    Interestingly enough, his body could not be identified even if it was discovered. No relatives alive are close enough to make a DNA match, and since he wore full dentures, a dental match isn’t possible.

    Well, yeah, but since he disappeared in 1930, a DNA match doesn’t matter since “Genome sequencing at that time is immaterial.”

  394. #394 Th1Th2
    December 18, 2011

    Oh look, poor old shit-for-brains can’t even cherry-pick a study to support her claims. Considering SFB didn’t conduct this survey, the proper credit goes to Bellini et al. an excellent epidemiologist.

    You didn’t seem to understand, did you, that the aim of the study wasn’t about causality but the correlation between SSPE and measles outbreak.

    You would have to have it be immaterial to conform to your torturous claims, but genotyping is at the very crux of your claim that measles vaccine causes SSPE yet no measles vaccine virus or variant can be found. History of illness or vaccination is not enough to determine the viral strain.

    It appears though during the 1960’s the predominant measles genotype was A. Whatever reason that could have explained genotypal replacement of endemic measles not to mention SSPE was not a concern until Schneck 1968:

    Live measles vaccine

    It is disturbing that six children have developed SSPE 3 weeks, 5 months, 1 year (two children) and 3 years (two children) respectively after immunization with live attenuated measles vaccine (Schneck, 1968; Payne, Baublis & Itabashi, 1969; Parker et al.,1970; Gerson & Haslam, 1971; Furesz, 1971). It is therefore essential that careful and prolonged surveillance is maintained on all children who receive the vaccine since this rare complication may not
    appear until several years later.

    h_ttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495233/pdf/postmedj00330-0021.pdf

  395. #395 Aşk Sözleri
    December 18, 2011

    You did call her an idiot, but you put her between two trolls. It’s a very trivial point, of course.

  396. #396 Narad
    December 18, 2011
    Measles-containing vaccines do not appear to: accelerate the course of SSPE; trigger SSPE; or cause SSPE in a person with an established benign persistent wild measles infection.

    I concur with this. Because SSPE is a consequence of primary measles infection either by WT or VT; it cannot be caused by measles re-infection. So whichever comes first will be the culprit.

    This is actually a somewhat interesting construction from the point of view of the Th1Th2 observer. The bot’s input base is at right about 60,000 characters, yet it contains exactly one semicolon. Th1Th2 doesn’t usually do semicolons. (Their ubiquity in the bot’s output is an artifact of the code base.)

    So why do we have one here? Simple, I’d say: It wants “in a person with an established benign persistent wild measles infection” to scope over “accelerate the course” and “trigger” as well, allowing it to “concur,” which is to say, declare that what has been found is entirely consistent with Th1Th2 Classic’s definition of vaccination and frank illness as being all the same thing and proceed from there to claim that “whichever comes first” is to blame by reference to the “second hit” mechanism, in blithe contradiction to the actual conclusions of the paper.

    Imitating the semicolon in a place where a comma would normally be used magically converts the previous semicolons into commas after the fact, rendering the statement amenable to ambiguity. Stupid, but subtle.

  397. #397 Science Mom
    December 18, 2011

    You didn’t seem to understand, did you, that the aim of the study wasn’t about causality but the correlation between SSPE and measles outbreak.

    Once again poor old SFB fails to comprehend the very study she failed to cite but plagiarised from. They tested brain tissue samples dumbass, i.e correlation and causation. Try reading further into the study as well:

    Although measles is a monotypic virus, 22 genotypes of wild-type virus are recognized; many genotypes have been associated with endemic circulation of measles virus in certain geographic regions or have been documented in connection with an outbreak or epidemic in an area [4, 5]. The measles vaccine virus strains belong to genotype A and can be distinguished from wild-type virus of the same genotype by means of sequence analysis.

    And:

    Analyses of measles virus sequences in brain tissue samples obtained from patients with SSPE have identified only wild-type measles virus, and the virus genotypes identified have been consistent with the genotype of measles virus that circulated in the area where the patients lived and to which the patients had been exposed ⩾10 years before the onset of symptoms of SSPE [6, 9 –13]. Genetic studies have supported epidemiologic evidence that measles vaccine virus does not cause SSPE [6, 14, 15]. In cases of SSPE that developed in children or adults who had no history of measles but who did have a history of vaccination against measles virus, analysis of measles virus sequences derived from the patients confirmed the presence of the wild-type genome, indicating that the individuals had an undiagnosed measles virus infection.

    Wild-type measles infection, not measles vaccine strain.

    It appears though during the 1960’s the predominant measles genotype was A. Whatever reason that could have explained genotypal [sic] replacement of endemic measles not to mention SSPE was not a concern until Schneck 1968:

    Oh what’s that SFB? Still quoting a 1960’s, pre-molecular testing, study? A case of correlation =/= causation given the lack of assays. SSPE was always a concern, since it’s identification. A vaccine was developed that sharply declined SSPE incidence. And you can’t find a single shred of evidence that the vaccine virus causes SSPE. Keep trying though, your mental gymnastics are Olympic-grade and entertaining.

  398. #398 lilady
    December 18, 2011

    Sh** for brains Troll, in addition to its warped personality disorders, is in a time warp as well, quoting a 39 year old article.

    This POS, SFB nasty Troll, who is delusional, uneducated and employable needs ***”terminal disinfection”.

    ***Too bad, LW…that “The Shadow” is not around now…it would be fun to encourage “The Shadow” to eliminate Thingy.

  399. #399 Denice Walter
    December 18, 2011

    @ LW: re ” Oxygen is needed to neutralise the free radicals”

    In Woo-topia, “free radicals”** cause “oxidative stress” which turn causes inflamation which causes cancer, CV, MS, SMI, ASD, etc
    this tragic situation can be reversed by consuming anti-oxidant( high in ORAC***) supplements, green juices ( chlorphyll-rich),using HBOT, and mainlining ozone.
    Or so the woo-meisters tell me.

    @ Dangerous Bacon:
    Didn’t you get the memo? In lieu of pay raises, we’re getting swag.
    Expect Tag Heuer. I got Cartier. Somebody’s getting a boat.

    ** and who would incarcerate them?
    *** I love it!

  400. #400 LW
    December 18, 2011

    Several of my comments went into moderation limbo (*sigh*), but one thing that was notable is that prior to the measles vaccine, there were about fifty cases of SSPE per year in the U.S., but by the early 90s, a researcher was only able to turn up two in the previous four years even though, of course, the population has grown substantially since the early 60s.

  401. #401 Science Mom
    December 18, 2011

    Well duh LW, public health measures to keep toddlers out of the dirt, away from each other and on side walks were implemented in 1969 and substantial uptake of said measures were finally achieved in the 1980’s.

  402. #402 LW
    December 18, 2011

    Ah, of course, thank you Science Mom. I knew there was a rational explanation that didn’t have anything to do with vaccination.

  403. #403 Narad
    December 18, 2011

    one thing that was notable is that prior to the measles vaccine, there were about fifty cases of SSPE per year in the U.S., but by the early 90s, a researcher was only able to turn up two in the previous four years even though, of course, the population has grown substantially since the early 60s

    THAT’S HOW THEY HIDE IT!!! It’s just like AFP, except for the parts where there’s nothing even resembling an increase in SSPE and laboratory results regarding the latter are immaterial through some sort of temporal inheritance but no stone may be left unturned for the former. Haha, you are hiding up the wrong barking squirrel! GAME OVER!!!

  404. #404 AdamG
    December 18, 2011

    I just love/hate it when Thingy attempts to wade into genetics and molecular biology. It’s highly entertaining and extremely depressing all at once.

  405. #405 Th1Th2
    December 18, 2011

    Pseudo-science Mom,

    Although measles is a monotypic virus, 22 genotypes of wild-type virus are recognized; many genotypes have been associated with endemic circulation of measles virus in certain geographic regions or have been documented in connection with an outbreak or epidemic in an area [4, 5]. The measles vaccine virus strains belong to genotype A and can be distinguished from wild-type virus of the same genotype by means of sequence analysis.

    Nothing extraordinary about that whatsoever. It’s just a comparison between VT and WT measles virus, not with the SSPE virus.

    Also the following findings below do not reveal anything new or unusual.

    Analyses of measles virus sequences in brain tissue samples obtained from patients with SSPE have identified only wild-type measles virus, and the virus genotypes identified have been consistent with the genotype of measles virus that circulated in the area where the patients lived and to which the patients had been exposed ⩾10 years before the onset of symptoms of SSPE [6, 9 –13].

    This would be true if the subject has had a history of primary measles infection caused by the wild-type measles virus prior to measles vaccination if there is any. Hence….

    Genetic studies have supported epidemiologic evidence that measles vaccine virus does not cause SSPE [6, 14, 15].

    Is true since SSPE is not caused by MV re-infection.

    In cases of SSPE that developed in children or adults who had no history of measles but who did have a history of vaccination against measles virus, analysis of measles virus sequences derived from the patients confirmed the presence of the wild-type genome, indicating that the individuals had an undiagnosed measles virus infection.

    Would only be true if primary measles infection caused by wild-type precedes primary measles vaccination.

    Wild-type measles infection, not measles vaccine strain.

    If the former precedes the latter in the order of occurence, yes.

    Oh what’s that SFB? Still quoting a 1960’s, pre-molecular testing, study? A case of correlation =/= causation given the lack of assays. SSPE was always a concern, since it’s identification.

    Of course, if SSPE was really a concern back then there would be an SSPE surveillance prior to the introduction of measles vaccine right? So when was it established?

    Also, this in 1969: h_ttp://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001185.htm

    A case of SSPE is defined by CDC as an illness with a compatible clinical course plus one of the following items of supporting laboratory evidence: 1) measles antibody detected in the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), 2) a characteristic pattern on electroencephalography, or 3) typical histologic findings in brain biopsy material or tissue obtained on postmortem examination.

    Schneck in 1968. Adverse Events Associated with Childhood Vaccines: Evidence Bearing on Causality, p. 135

    The first report of SSPE in a patient with a negative history of measles but a positive history of vaccination with live attenuated measles vaccine was reported in 1968 (Shneck, 1968). The child had received measles vaccine with immune globulin 3 weeks prior to the onset of symptoms. The clinical course accelerated 10 weeks after vaccination, and the child died 18 months after vaccination. Serologic studies were not performed, but post-mortem histologic examination of the brain supported a diagnosis of SSPE.

    Ouch!

    And you can’t find a single shred of evidence that the vaccine virus causes SSPE. Keep trying though, your mental gymnastics are Olympic-grade and entertaining.

    A pig with a lipstick is still a pig.

  406. #406 Th1Th2
    December 18, 2011

    Game Over. Infection promoters!

  407. #407 adelady
    December 18, 2011

    Toddlers stay on footpaths. Out of the dirt? !!!

    Good to know that these little dog bowl lickers, sandpit samplers, potting soil connoisseurs will be free of all desire for contact with any non sterile substance in just a few short months.

    From Australia’s advertising industry … http://www.jalna.com.au/common/advertising.html (First one on the page.)

  408. #408 Krebiozen
    December 18, 2011

    Game Over. Infection promoters!

    Are you joking? How is the presence of one virus in the brains of people with a brain disease evidence that a different virus which wasn’t found in their brains actually caused the disease? And how is a dramatic decrease in the incidence of a disease after the introduction of vaccination evidence that the disease is caused by vaccination? Bonkers, absolutely raving bonkers…

  409. #409 Denice Walter
    December 18, 2011

    @ Krebiozen:

    I am starting to believe that Thingy is indeed a personification of an archetype of the collective unconscious**, emerging from the deep and shadowy recesses of time at the dawn of our species, as an amalgamation of humanity’s speculative-thought-gone-astray over the millenia which now steps forth to grace us with its appearance. Lucky us.

    ** non-existent but serviceable as a metaphor.

  410. #410 Science Mom
    December 18, 2011

    Nothing extraordinary about that whatsoever. It’s just a comparison between VT and WT measles virus, not with the SSPE virus.

    Oh, then let me help you (again, the same quote with emphasis added):

    Although measles is a monotypic virus, 22 genotypes of wild-type virus are recognized; many genotypes have been associated with endemic circulation of measles virus in certain geographic regions or have been documented in connection with an outbreak or epidemic in an area [4, 5]. The measles vaccine virus strains belong to genotype A and can be distinguished from wild-type virus of the same genotype by means of sequence analysis.

    I know these blindingly obvious statements of fact are easy to miss, but do try. Ooops, spoke to soon, must don my Captain Obvious cape for Colonel Oblivious here…

    Also the following findings below do not reveal anything new or unusual.

    Analyses of measles virus sequences in brain tissue samples obtained from patients with SSPE have identified only wild-type measles virus, and the virus genotypes identified have been consistent with the genotype of measles virus that circulated in the area where the patients lived and to which the patients had been exposed ⩾10 years before the onset of symptoms of SSPE [6, 9 –13].

    Oh, what’s that? No vaccine virus found? That isn’t going to stop shit-for-brains though, no way she knows TEH TWOOF.

    This would be true if the subject has had a history of primary measles infection caused by the wild-type measles virus prior to measles vaccination if there is any.

    Nah, it doesn’t matter that some subjects have had asymptomatic or unreported wild-type measles infection and doesn’t matter that vaccine virus has never been isolated and genotyped from an SSPE patient, SFB marches on…

    f the former precedes the latter in the order of occurence, yes.

    Pssst (and no this isn’t one of the voices in your head), no vaccine virus sequenced…ever.

    Of course, if SSPE was really a concern back then there would be an SSPE surveillance prior to the introduction of measles vaccine right? So when was it established?

    You keep thinking this is some sort of ‘gotcha’ but given the progression of identifying the illness and the presumption that the vaccine could theoretically cause SSPE, it isn’t surprising that a U.S. registry began in 1969. Yet, even your own cites do not support a vaccine-strain SSPE case and even archived tissue samples do not support a vaccine-strain SSPE case. Go ahead, find a single sequence in the literature or on GenBank that supports your claim.

    A pig with a lipstick is still a pig.

    That’s the only correct thing you’ve said but do use a mirror when you put that lipstick on, although clown face does suit you.

  411. #411 Narad
    December 18, 2011

    That’s the only correct thing you’ve said but do use a mirror when you put that lipstick on

    It hasn’t dragged this scavenged idiom out in a while. The last time, naturally, it managed to drive it over a cliff in amusing fashion:

    Whoever you are, you are funny. What is your evidence to prove that the pig with a lipstick is NOT a pig?

  412. #412 TBruce
    December 18, 2011

    That’s the only correct thing you’ve said but do use a mirror when you put that lipstick on, although clown face does suit you.

    That explains why the Thing regularly shoots herself in the foot – those big clown feet are hard to miss.

  413. #413 Marry Me, Mindy
    December 18, 2011

    Tangentially related –

    Speaking of vaccines, it would be really nice if there was a hand, foot, and mouth disease vaccine. I realize it’s generally not fatal or even serious, but man it’s a PITA for kids. Much rather get a vaccine.

  414. #414 notdrew
    December 18, 2011

    This is wonderful.Brave New World-wonderful. Evidence-illiterates up at arms over a children’s book while nary a peep about the CDC,FDA or the military-medical-pharmaceutical industrialists who consider them their useful idiots.

    I’m going to take a bet that no one on this site has the expertise or intellect of Maurice R. Hilleman,Ph.D…..right? All of you should defer to Dr. Hilleman, correct? Denise Walter? Lilady? LW? Come on, I’m sure all of you are really,really smart and stuff, but what about Dr. Hilleman? Won’t someone please think of Dr. Hilleman??!!!!?? Science Mom, you’re excluded; you’re obviously the smartest bitch around.

    “Maurice R. Hilleman Ph.D., a leading expert on immunization, developed over 40 vaccines and published more than 480 original articles on virology, epidemiology, immunology, and infectious diseases.
    Two years ago, a 1991 confidential memo from Dr. Hilleman to the head of Merck’s vaccine division was made public.(2) In the memo, Dr. Hilleman wrote “The regulatory control agencies in some countries, particularly Scandinavia (especially Sweden) but also UK, Japan, and Switzerland have expressed concern for thimerosal, a mercury preservative, in vaccines. Some countries require absence of thimerosal from single-dose package. This trend will probably spread… Sweden is requiring thimerosal free single-dose packaging of all products as soon as can be reasonably achieved. The deadline for DT is January, 1992… “The focal point for present concern is in Scandinavia… The immediate Merck concern is to be able to qualify for sale of single-dose products in Sweden and in Norway and Denmark… The public awareness has been raised by the sequential wave of experiences in Sweden including mercury exposure from additives, fish, contaminated air, bird death from eating mercury-treated seed grains, dental amalgam leakage, mercury allergy, etc… In some instances, public immunization programs may be endangered by public refusal to accept vaccines with thimerosal.”
    Dr. Hilleman went on,
    “For babies: The 25 µg of mercury in a single 0.5 ml dose and extrapolated to a 6 lb baby would be 25X the adjusted Swedish daily allowance of 1.0 µg for a baby of that size… If 8 doses of thimerosal-containing vaccine were given in the first 6 months of life (3 DPT, 2 HIB and 3 Hepatitis B) the 200 µg of mercury given, say an average size of 12 lbs would be about 87X the Swedish daily allowance of 2.3 µg of mercury for a baby of that size.”
    To put all this into perspective: In 1991, we have an international expert (and the # 1 US vaccine expert) on vaccines telling the chief of the vaccine division of the largest US vaccine manufacturer that it is imperative to immediately produce mercury-free vaccines for Scandinavian children in order to avoid exposing them to unacceptable levels of mercury and to guarantee a market share.
    All this while the CDC and the FDA were introducing a new mercury-containing vaccine and no one, including members of the medical profession, was uttering not a word and doing absolutely nothing, about the copious amounts of mercury that were being injected in American infants.”

  415. #415 notdrew
    December 18, 2011

    This is wonderful.Brave New World-wonderful. Evidence-illiterates up at arms over a children’s book while nary a peep about the CDC,FDA or the military-medical-pharmaceutical industrialists who consider them their useful idiots.

    I’m going to take a bet that no one on this site has the expertise or intellect of Maurice R. Hilleman,Ph.D…..right? All of you should defer to Dr. Hilleman, correct? Denise Walter? Lilady? LW? Come on, I’m sure all of you are really,really smart and stuff, but what about Dr. Hilleman? Won’t someone please think of Dr. Hilleman??!!!!?? Science Mom, you’re excluded; you’re obviously the smartest bitch around.

  416. #416 notdrew
    December 18, 2011

    “Maurice R. Hilleman Ph.D., a leading expert on immunization, developed over 40 vaccines and published more than 480 original articles on virology, epidemiology, immunology, and infectious diseases.
    Two years ago, a 1991 confidential memo from Dr. Hilleman to the head of Merck’s vaccine division was made public.(2) In the memo, Dr. Hilleman wrote “The regulatory control agencies in some countries, particularly Scandinavia (especially Sweden) but also UK, Japan, and Switzerland have expressed concern for thimerosal, a mercury preservative, in vaccines. Some countries require absence of thimerosal from single-dose package. This trend will probably spread… Sweden is requiring thimerosal free single-dose packaging of all products as soon as can be reasonably achieved. The deadline for DT is January, 1992… “The focal point for present concern is in Scandinavia… The immediate Merck concern is to be able to qualify for sale of single-dose products in Sweden and in Norway and Denmark… The public awareness has been raised by the sequential wave of experiences in Sweden including mercury exposure from additives, fish, contaminated air, bird death from eating mercury-treated seed grains, dental amalgam leakage, mercury allergy, etc… In some instances, public immunization programs may be endangered by public refusal to accept vaccines with thimerosal.”

  417. #417 notdrew
    December 18, 2011

    Dr. Hilleman went on,
    “For babies: The 25 µg of mercury in a single 0.5 ml dose and extrapolated to a 6 lb baby would be 25X the adjusted Swedish daily allowance of 1.0 µg for a baby of that size… If 8 doses of thimerosal-containing vaccine were given in the first 6 months of life (3 DPT, 2 HIB and 3 Hepatitis B) the 200 µg of mercury given, say an average size of 12 lbs would be about 87X the Swedish daily allowance of 2.3 µg of mercury for a baby of that size.”
    To put all this into perspective: In 1991, we have an international expert (and the # 1 US vaccine expert) on vaccines telling the chief of the vaccine division of the largest US vaccine manufacturer that it is imperative to immediately produce mercury-free vaccines for Scandinavian children in order to avoid exposing them to unacceptable levels of mercury and to guarantee a market share.
    All this while the CDC and the FDA were introducing a new mercury-containing vaccine and no one, including members of the medical profession, was uttering not a word and doing absolutely nothing, about the copious amounts of mercury that were being injected in American infants.”

  418. #418 TBruce
    December 18, 2011

    @notdrew:

    LOLWUT?

  419. #419 LW
    December 18, 2011

    Science Mom sort of alluded to this, but it is surprising to learn that the connection between the measles virus and SSPE wasn’t fully understood until 1968. After that, of course, it was subject to surveillance because of the fear — not justified, fortunately — that the measles vaccine virus, though attenuated, would still be able to cause SSPE.

  420. #420 notdrew
    December 18, 2011

    @TBruce
    aaaaaaaaaaaarahhhhhhhhh!!!!!Ha-ha! LOL! You got me! Maurice R. Hilleman doesn’t exist! I made him up! Let’s all resume our CDC bootlicking!

  421. #421 LW
    December 18, 2011

    Whoa, we got another live one!

  422. #422 Science Mom
    December 18, 2011

    Ah, what’s a quiet Sunday night without a hit of the ol’ http://www.whale.to/vaccine/hilleman_h.html

    And speaking of hits, methinks notdrew is toking on something other than the whale.

  423. #423 TBruce
    December 18, 2011

    I made the LOLWUT comment before comments 415 and 416 appeared. After reading them, and finding out that they were an uncredited cut’n’paste from whale.to, my comment remains:

    LOLWUT?

  424. #424 Antaeus Feldspar
    December 18, 2011

    Notdrew, you do realize that it’s bad form to cut and paste text you find from websites and not disclose where it came from, don’t you? Not to mention, when your source is whale.to, a site which also hosts the infamous anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, you won’t be as impressive as you think.

    The part of the Hilleman story which you seem to be ignorant of is that Hilleman was not saying “ZOMG, you gaiz, mercury is TEH EVILZ and every second it is in vaccines we are KILLING TEH BABIEZ,” he was saying “there is reason to be concerned, and to investigate, to find out if the mercury in vaccines is causing a problem.” The question was raised, the question was studied, and the results came back, but since the answer they gave wasn’t the one the antivaccine alarmists wanted to hear, they ignore that, and they leave out everything after “Brilliant Maurice Hilleman raised the question, therefore the answer is VAxxines IS EVUL! We describe every other scientist who has anything to do with vaccines as an evil agent of Satan, but anyone who says something we can quote-mine suddenly becomes a genius!”

  425. #425 Chris
    December 18, 2011

    notdrew, you do know that Ms. Messenger is in Australia. The CDC and FDA are American. The only thing they have in common is that they start with the letter “A.”

    And while Hilleman did actually exist, we will assume your comments about his actions will have been pulled out of thin air unless you back them up.

  426. #426 novalox
    December 18, 2011

    @notdrew
    Thanks for your unabashed stupidity. Your utter ignorance and spit-filled conspiracy-theory mongering is going to provide some welcome entertainment, child.

    So keep on rolling the stupid. I’ll be ready for the laughs at your pitiful expense.

  427. #427 notdrew
    December 19, 2011

    @novalox
    you’re not really interested in providing any evidence that thimerosal in vaccinations isn’t at all deleterious, no, you’re intellectual level is much more accustomed to throwing around terms like “conspiracy”.Stay in the shallow end.
    The LA Times verified the existence of the 1991 Merk memo that became the possession of Washington lawyer James Moody.

  428. #428 notdrew
    December 19, 2011

    @antaeus

    The alarming evidence of the dangers of mercury in vaccinations in the 1991 internal Merk memo has been independently verified in one instance by Dr. Rashid Buttar, whose son Abi made a full recovery from autism after mercury detoxification. As Dr. Bob Nash, Chairman Of The American Board Of Clinical Metal Toxicology stated, “when thirty-one children recover from the devastating disease by a simple transdermal treatment that detoxifies metals, then common-sense dictates that perhaps metals are involved”. That the military-petrochemical-pharmaceutical-industrial complex has no clothes is evident but to useful idiots who swallow what they are told.

  429. #429 Chris
    December 19, 2011

    notdrew, what thimerosal in pediatric vaccines? They were removed over ten years ago! Come join us in the 21st century, and argue something that is current.

  430. #430 novalox
    December 19, 2011

    @notdrew

    Yawn, you made the claim, you provide the evidence, though I doubt from your comments so far that you’ll ever provide any.

    And you cut-and-pasted your idiotic screed from a section of whale.to, so you lose the argument automatically, via Scopie’s law.

    But do keep paying the role of the ignorant fool, it makes for some mildly good and silly entertainment.

  431. #431 Delurked lurker
    December 19, 2011

    Interested in reading the thread RE the trolls. My 2 cents worth is, it’s best to adopt the sageous advice Chris gave, talk about them but not to them.

    I do prefer when Orac gets off issues to do with the anti vax crowd, far less odious brain dead trolls in the replies.

    Cheers :)

  432. #432 herr doktor bimler
    December 19, 2011

    And you cut-and-pasted your idiotic screed from a section of whale.to

    I suspect that if the commenters wanted to debate these interesting views, they would go to whale.to and try to change the mind of the actual author, rather than some lazy troll cut-&-pasting sections here. As they say, when you can talk to the organ-grinder, who wants to talk to the monkey?

  433. #433 lilady
    December 19, 2011

    I think I prefer to read current research about vaccines from real researchers, not the drivel posted on whale.to by its blog owner…the pig farmer.

    “when thirty-one children recover from the devastating disease by a simple transdermal treatment that detoxifies metals, then common-sense dictates that perhaps metals are involved”

    Want to expand on that “notdrew”…I’m especially interested in the “transdermal” treatment of “mercury” toxicity.

  434. #434 Denice Walter
    December 19, 2011

    Hilleman has been flung around recently @ GaryNull.com/ ProgressiveRadioNetwork.com):
    Null and Ashley, Deadly Injection: The Hidden Ingredients in Vaccines; 12/5/11
    Null and Ashley, Flu Vaccines- The Coverup- The Fraud; 11/30/11.
    “Oh what a tangled web we weave…..”
    I rest my case.

  435. #435 Krebiozen
    December 19, 2011

    I’m sure this has been discussed here before, and it’s really of historic interest only, but I always wondered about that quote from Hilleman’s memo, as it’s such an odd way of putting the cumulative dose of thimerosal. I can only assume he was pointing out that the numbers could be manipulated to be misleading to the ignorant:

    If 8 doses of thimerosal-containing vaccine were given in the first 6 months of life (3 DPT, 2 HIB and 3 Hepatitis B) the 200 µg of mercury given, say an average size of 12 lbs would be about 87X the Swedish daily allowance of 2.3 µg of mercury for a baby of that size.

    The LA Times, and many others, reported this to mean:

    6-month-old children who received their shots on schedule would get a mercury dose up to 87 times higher than guidelines for the maximum daily consumption of mercury from fish

    It’s understandable that some people lacking a background in science, like notdrew it seems (though I am too kind to refer to him as one of the “useful idiots who swallow what they are told “), thought that children were being given a daily dose of mercury 87 times higher than the safety limit.

    A closer reading shows this wasn’t what Hilleman said at all. He said that over the course of 6 months (about 180 days), a 12 pound baby was being given about 87 times as much mercury as would be safe for it to be given every single day. A better way of putting it, perhaps, would be that on average over six months that baby would have been given 1.1 µg of mercury a day, less than half the Swedish daily allowance of 2.3 µg a day for a baby that size. Also worth noting, a safety allowance like that means that the Swedes had determined that a baby that size could be given 2.3 µg of methylmercury every day forever without any problems. A large safety margin is built in.

    If someone consumed a bottle of wine every Saturday night, you could point out that over the course of six months they would have consumed 24 bottles of wine, which is considerably more than the recommended daily allowance of alcohol, and could be fatal if consumed in one day. This would clearly be a nonsensical non sequitur, but some people seem happy to swallow a similar nonsensical non sequitur where thimerosal in vaccines is concerned.

  436. #436 Krebiozen
    December 19, 2011

    I’ve been thinking of names for sequels (or should that be sequelae?) to ‘Melanie’s Marvelous Measles’. I thought of ‘Eric’s Exciting Encephalitis’, ‘Natalie’s Nice Pneumonia’, ‘Harry’s Happy Hepatoma’, ‘Carrie’s Super Cervical Cancer’, ‘Mary’s Magnificent Maternal Rubella Syndrome’ or even ‘Fiona’s Fun Funeral’. The possibilities are almost endless…

  437. #437 Renate
    December 19, 2011

    How about “Iris’ Interesting Iron Lung”?

  438. #438 Th1Th2
    December 19, 2011

    Fake Science Mom,

    SSPE was always a concern, since it’s identification. A vaccine was developed that sharply declined SSPE incidence.

    You do realize, don’t you that you’re one of a kind delusional liar? Pure fantasy and wild imagination, only you know best.

    OK. Exactly when did SSPE become known as a disease of measles virus etiology. Let’s take a look, shall we? h_ttp://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/6/1334.full

    SSPE was originally described as three different neuropathological conditions in the 1930s and 1940s.4 A viral aetiology was suggested when the condition was first described in 1933, but it was not until 1967–69 that measles viruses were established as the cause. When live measles vaccine became available in the early 1960s, the aetiology of SSPE was therefore unknown.

    Now here’s Chris with her infamous measles reduction scheme and take note of the year when SSPE was first identified with measles against the incidence rate of measles since its introduction in 1963.
    _____________________________________
    Here is a table that sums it up (from CDC Pink Book Appendix G, with some editing):
    Disease: Measles in the USA
    Year__Cases___Deaths
    1961__423,919_434
    1962__481,530_408
    1963__385,156_364
    (^^ first vaccine licensed)
    1964__458,083_421
    1965__261,905_276
    1966__204,136_261
    1967___62,705__81
    1968___22,231__24
    1969___25,826__41
    1970___47,351__89
    1971___75,290__90
    (^^^ MMR licensed)
    1972___32,275__24
    1973___26,690__23
    1974___22,690__20
    1975___24,374__20
    1976___41,126__12
    1977___57,245__15
    1978___26,871__11
    (^^^ Measles Elimination Program started)
    1979___13,597___6
    1980___13,506__11
    1981____2,124___2
    Posted by: Chris | November 3, 2011 3:21 PM h_ttp://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/11/vaccine_injury_awareness_week_joe_mercol.php
    __________________________________

    Ahh at least I know who started SSPE. It has always been the infection promoters!

  439. #439 Science Mom
    December 19, 2011

    OK. Exactly when did SSPE become known as a disease of measles virus etiology. Let’s take a look, shall we? h_ttp://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/6/1334.full

    SSPE was originally described as three different neuropathological conditions in the 1930s and 1940s.4 A viral aetiology was suggested when the condition was first described in 1933, but it was not until 1967–69 that measles viruses were established as the cause. When live measles vaccine became available in the early 1960s, the aetiology of SSPE was therefore unknown.

    Yup, pretty much parallels what I said.

    Now here’s Chris with her infamous measles reduction scheme and take note of the year when SSPE was first identified with measles against the incidence rate of measles since its introduction in 1963.

    I’m feeling bold; is there a point here? It’s 2011, almost 2012 and what’s that? Still can’t produce a single nucleotide sequence from an SSPE patient that is measles vaccine virus? My work here is done as shit-for-brains has devolved even further down her rabbit hole and another batch of quotes from SFB generated to point and laugh at for years to come.

  440. #440 lilady
    December 19, 2011

    I see ***SFB Troll has posted again….yawn.

    Still delusional, still uneducated, still a disease-promoter and still a health-care-professional wannabe SFB troll.

    *** SH** For Brains

  441. #441 Dianne
    December 19, 2011

    Sigh. Thingy, the incidence of SSPE is much lower in the vaccinated population than in the unvaccinated population.
    Ref: http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/6685828/reload=0;jsessionid=PyaXyaw5lRVozUUzgoyh.86

  442. #442 Prometheus
    December 19, 2011

    There is a curious bit of “failure to comprehend” in comment #438, in which the commenter first cites the following:

    “SSPE was originally described as three different neuropathological conditions in the 1930’s and 1940’s.A viral aetiology was suggested when the condition was first described in 1933, but it was not until 1967–69 that measles viruses were established as the cause.”

    The commenter then states:

    “…take note of the year when SSPE was first identified with measles against the incidence rate of measles since its introduction in 1963.”

    Although the syntax is unclear, it appears that the commenter is claiming that even though the incidence of SSPE fell following introduction of the live-attenuated measles vaccine, the fact that the cause of SSPE was not identified until after introduction of the vaccine is somehow “proof” that SSPE is caused by the measles vaccine strain.

    The massive “failure to comprehend” comes from the fact that the commenter’s own citation clearly states that SSPE was a significant health problem “in the 1930’s and 1940’s”, well before the measles vaccine.

    No doubt, the commenter will next claim that this was “diagnostic substitution”, where the pre-1963 cause of SSPE simply “disappeared” and the measles vaccine strain caused an identical disorder, but at a much lower incidence.

    Of course, to believe this, we would have to ignore the fact that sequencing of SSPE-causing measles strains has never shown a case arising from the vaccine strain.

    Now, in past comments, this same writer has made much of the fact that measles, as an RNA virus, mutates very rapidly. This is true, but does not preclude using sequencing to differentiate between wild-type strains or between wild-type and vaccine strains. Perhaps this commenter should devote some time to reading up on which portions of the measles virus genome are used for strain typing and which parts are most prone to mutation.

    Prometheus

  443. #443 Th1Th2
    December 19, 2011

    Krebiozen,

    Are you joking? How is the presence of one virus in the brains of people with a brain disease evidence that a different virus which wasn’t found in their brains actually caused the disease?

    Simple. All they have to do in order to exonerate the vaccine of causing SSPE is to establish that a wild-type measles infection, asymptomatic or otherwise, had possibly occurred prior to primary measles vaccination. Read #367.

    And how is a dramatic decrease in the incidence of a disease after the introduction of vaccination evidence that the disease is caused by vaccination?

    Please read #438.

  444. #444 lilady
    December 19, 2011

    I see SFB Troll has posted again….yawn.

    Still delusional, still uneducated, still a disease-promoter and still a health-care-professional wannabe SFB troll. It needs “terminal disinfection”.

  445. #445 dedicated lurker
    December 19, 2011

    Prometheus, please remember this is the person who says “paralysis = polio.”

  446. #446 Science Mom
    December 19, 2011

    Simple. All they have to do in order to exonerate the vaccine of causing SSPE is to establish that a wild-type measles infection, asymptomatic or otherwise, had possibly occurred prior to primary measles vaccination. Read #367.

    Nope, genotyping the measles virus and none, thus far, being vaccine strain is what exonerates the vaccine. That is showing that a wild-type infection had occurred, asymptomatic or otherwise. The order of wild-type measles and vaccine is moot when no vaccine virus is found. You made the claim that the vaccine can cause SSPE so show that it does.

  447. #447 LW
    December 19, 2011

    I wonder how one explains the presence of wild-type virus in the brains of SSPE. Victims *other than* by prior infection with wild-type virus?

    But then, Who knows what virus lurks in the brains of men? The Thingy knows!

  448. #448 Narad
    December 19, 2011

    You made the claim that the vaccine can cause SSPE so show that it does.

    It seemed to be claiming that only the vaccine can cause SSPE before it staggered off to ramble about reinfection. Of course, it took nearly 300 comments for this to bubble up in the first place.

    Nonviable mutations: They’re what’s for dinner.

  449. #449 Antaeus Feldspar
    December 19, 2011

    you’re not really interested in providing any evidence that thimerosal in vaccinations isn’t at all deleterious

    That’s because it’s already been proven sufficiently that the burden of proof is now on those who think it is deleterious to provide falsifiable propositions, and explain how those propositions can be reconciled with the existing data, e.g., if thimerosal purportedly causes autism, why didn’t the mass removal of thimerosal from vaccines cause a massive drop in autism rates?   Why didn’t it cause any drop in autism rates?

    The LA Times verified the existence of the 1991 Merk memo that became the possession of Washington lawyer James Moody.

    So?  No one’s disputing the existence of the memo, or that Hilleman raised the concerns he did in the memo.  What we are saying is that the question Hilleman said in the memo should be investigated has been investigated.  Are you truly that incapable of following the issues, or is “you’re [sic] intellectual level … much more accustomed to throwing around terms like ‘conspiracy’?”

    The alarming evidence of the dangers of mercury in vaccinations in the 1991 internal Merk memo

    You seem unduly confused by this one point, so I’ll try to explain it again.  The memo is not evidence of the dangers of mercury, or of anything else.  The memo is evidence that someone thought the possibility should be investigated.

    If you applied for a government job, they would almost certainly do a background check on you, just to make sure you’re not an undercover agent for an enemy nation or something like that.  Such a check would almost certainly come back clean (unless there’s something you haven’t told us.)  How much sense would it make for someone to trumpet “Look, look!  They did this background check on him!  The fact that they did a background check is evidence that he is an undercover agent for an enemy nation!”?  That’s right:  very little sense.  And that’s how little sense it makes to pretend that the Hilleman memo is “evidence” of the dangers of mercury in vaccinations.

    has been independently verified in one instance

    Science doesn’t verify things in “one instance.”  A sample size of 1 is almost worthless in terms of proving anything.

    by Dr. Rashid Buttar,

    Bwahahahaha!  You’re joking, right?  Rashid “Prettybeads” Buttar??  The same Rashid Buttar who was brought before the North Carolina Medical Board for diagnosing and “treating” mercury poisoning in patients whose mercury levels were normal according to Buttar’s own testing??

    whose son Abi made a full recovery from autism after mercury detoxification.

    Let me show you something.  The argument you’ve just presented has a flaw, formally called the fallacy of affirming the consequent.  Your argument is:

    1) Buttar gave his autistic son a treatment that would allegedly counteract heavy metal poisoning.
    2) The son seemed to improve after the treatment.
    3) Therefore, heavy metal poisoning is what the son had.

    Sound convincing?  Let me show you an argument which is in the exact same form, which means that if you call the first one sound, you must do the same for this one:

    1) Buttar gave his autistic son a treatment that would allegedly counteract heavy metal poisoning which had been deliberately induced by his own father.
    2) The son seemed to improve after the treatment.
    3) Therefore, heavy metal poisoning deliberately induced by his own father is what the son had.

    So, are you ready to condemn Buttar for poisoning his child with heavy metals?  If not, then why not?  You were ready to condemn vaccinations on the exact same evidence!  Of course, the real lesson is not that Buttar poisoned his own son, it’s that arguments in the form “If A is true, then B is true; B is true; therefore A is true” are flawed and don’t prove bupkis.

    As Dr. Bob Nash, Chairman Of The American Board Of Clinical Metal Toxicology stated, “when thirty-one children recover from the devastating disease by a simple transdermal treatment that detoxifies metals, then common-sense dictates that perhaps metals are involved”.

    Wow, those are some very impressive credentials!  Except they’re not, since the American Board of Clinical Metal Toxicology is not and has never been recognized by the American Board of Medical Specialties.  Nash and like-minded folks could have just as easily called themselves the American Board of Clinical Alien Abduction Research; it wouldn’t mean they had any actual knowledge of the subject.  As for Nash’s argument, it’s another affirming of the consequent, and it loses its power when you realize that the same “recovery” Nash is referring to has been experienced by far more than thirty-one children who have received no treatment for alleged metals poisoning.

  450. #450 Th1Th2
    December 19, 2011

    Pseudo-scientific Mom,

    Nothing extraordinary about that whatsoever. It’s just a comparison between VT and WT measles virus, not with the SSPE virus.

    Oh, then let me help you (again, the same quote with emphasis added):

    The measles vaccine virus strains belong to genotype A and can be distinguished from wild-type virus of the same genotype by means of sequence analysis.

    OK This was your argument:

    They tested brain tissue samples dumbass, i.e correlation and causation. Try reading further into the study as well:

    What they have found from the diseased brain was a mutant measles virus hence it’s called SSPE virus. You’re confusing it with the wild-type measles virus that had caused the initial infection wherein they are genetically different from each other more so with the vaccine virus.

    Oh, what’s that? No vaccine virus found? That isn’t going to stop shit-for-brains though, no way she knows TEH TWOOF.

    It’s because you’re a dumbass for not knowing that SSPE is a consequence of primary measles infection. So if they have found the mutant measles virus to be of wild-type in origin obviously the primary measles infection was caused by a wild-type virus. Even if the individual was vaccinated is irrelevant since SSPE is not caused by subsequent re-infection. Of course, in the absence of natural measles but a positive history of measles vaccination, their strategy is to simply establish by asserting that a wild-type infection must have occurred prior to vaccination. Therefore, in order to establish the correlation, the unidentified mutant measles virus will be classified and assigned according to the genotype that had been in circulation during the hypothetical primary exposure. Hence, correlation does not mean causation. Yup it’s a guesswork but they badly needed that to exonerate the vaccine.

    This would be true if the subject has had a history of primary measles infection caused by the wild-type measles virus prior to measles vaccination if there is any.

    Nah, it doesn’t matter that some subjects have had asymptomatic or unreported wild-type measles infection and doesn’t matter that vaccine virus has never been isolated and genotyped from an SSPE patient, SFB marches on…

    Primary measles infection is the determining factor in the development of SSPE. And you know nothing about it.

    How fortunate are the unvaccinated and uninfected.

    Pssst (and no this isn’t one of the voices in your head), no vaccine virus sequenced…ever.

    They just don’t want to implicate the vaccine. As simple as that.

    You keep thinking this is some sort of ‘gotcha’ but given the progression of identifying the illness and the presumption that the vaccine could theoretically cause SSPE, it isn’t surprising that a U.S. registry began in 1969.

    Progression? Are you kidding me? They were clueless about measles and SSPE until 1968 which prompted them to establish a disaster management plan aka surveillance as a result of their continued infection-promoting agenda since 1963. How wonderful.

    Yet, even your own cites do not support a vaccine-strain SSPE case and even archived tissue samples do not support a vaccine-strain SSPE case. Go ahead, find a single sequence in the literature or on GenBank that supports your claim.

    Hey let me give you a clue.

    Biologic Plausibility

    SSPE is a recognized sequela of measles infection, and it is biologically plausible that it could occur after the administration of the live attenuated viral vaccine. Identification of the cause of SSPE as wild-type or vaccine-strain measles virus has not been possible. The viruses isolated from patients with SSPE differ from the known measles viruses. The viruses may have become altered by the prolonged residence in the brains of the patients, or they may have been different at the time of the original infection.

    Adverse Events Associated with Childhood Vaccines: Evidence Bearing on Causality, p. 136

    Correlation does not mean causation. Meanwhile, you can continue with the guesswork.

  451. #451 Th1Th2
    December 19, 2011

    Pseudo-Science Mom,

    Yup, pretty much parallels what I said.

    No, you overshoot it by a mile.

    I’m feeling bold; is there a point here? It’s 2011, almost 2012 and what’s that? Still can’t produce a single nucleotide sequence from an SSPE patient that is measles vaccine virus?

    Yes there is a point. A vaccine was developed in 1963 despite their ignorance on SSPE. So don’t ever claim that there was a “sharp decline in SSPE incidence” as a result. That’s pure stupidity.

    Second, the evidence of causality between the measles vaccine and SSPE was established since 1968. Re-read #394 and #405. It was the basis for SSPE cover-up aka SSPE surveillance in 1969.

  452. #452 Narad
    December 19, 2011

    Somebody forgot to read the memo that tinfoil hats are a bad activity idea for art therapy, it seems.

  453. #453 Th1Th2
    December 19, 2011

    The order of wild-type measles and vaccine is moot when no vaccine virus is found. You made the claim that the vaccine can cause SSPE so show that it does.

    Yo’ blind? Schneck, 1968. Because ignorance about SSPE is priceless.

  454. #454 Lawrence
    December 19, 2011

    No, you’re just terminally stupid.

  455. #455 Narad
    December 19, 2011

    Yo’ blind?

    Are you under the impression that this is some sort of normal English idiom?

  456. #456 LW
    December 19, 2011

    You know, doctors are really amazing people.

    Doctors are so murderously dishonest that they will deliberately poison literally billions of people, including their own children and even themselves, for the greater good of Big Pharma.

    Doctors also are, and always have been, absolutely and infallibly knowledgeable about every aspect of human biology, so if one doctor in 1968, without the benefit of modern genomic sequencing, believed that SSPE could be caused by the measles vaccine, and could develop within three weeks of exposure (unlike the normal course of the disease, which takes years), why then that is The Truth and no later research could possibly find that one doctor to be in error.

  457. #457 Science Mom
    December 19, 2011

    Yes there is a point. A vaccine was developed in 1963 despite their ignorance on SSPE. So don’t ever claim that there was a “sharp decline in SSPE incidence” as a result. That’s pure stupidity.

    Second, the evidence of causality between the measles vaccine and SSPE was established since 1968. Re-read #394 and #405. It was the basis for SSPE cover-up aka SSPE surveillance in 1969.

    There there shit-for-brains; I’m sure it’s confusing when your delusions of adequacy have delusions of grandeur. But I have no doubt you will perverserate*.

    *Not a typo.

  458. #458 Lawrence
    December 19, 2011

    I can’t resist – insane troll claims that all modern medical science, doctors, researchers, etc. are all part of some giant conspiracy in support of “infections,” to what end, she cannot articulate……yet she will also attempt to use these so-called “biased” resources to support her position….too funny.

  459. #459 LW
    December 19, 2011

    I’m hoping I’ve got this sequence of events right.

    In the 1930s and 1940s, doctors reported three different diseases, all of which look exactly like SSPE and none of which they identified as being caused by measles. Doctors being always, absolutely, and infallibly right, those were in fact three different diseases but none of them were SSPE and none of them were caused by measles.

    Then in the early 1960s, the measles vaccine was developed, and three different not-caused-by-measles-not-SSPE diseases met with a Boojum and silently vanished away. Schneck, the only honest doctor who has ever lived in all of human history, then let the cat out of the bag by reporting that the measles vaccine causes SSPE to develop within three weeks of administration.

    Rather than do the logical things (murder Schneck, disappear his article, and claim that he was in league with the evil homeopaths), other doctors set up a registry to identify all cases of SSPE and publicized it. And then, instead of just blaming every case on one or another of the not-caused-by-measles-not-SSPE diseases previously identified, or just making up some more, they went through this whole charade of sequencing who knows how many cases of wild-type virus, measles vaccine virus, and SSPE virus, just so they could pretend that in every case the SSPE virus was derived from wild-type virus instead of measles vaccine virus.

    Really, these doctors need to attend remedial Evil Villain classes.

    But it’s okay — Who knows what virus lurks in the brains of men? The Thingy knows!

  460. #460 Pareidolius
    December 19, 2011

    Man, I go away for 24 hours and look at this place! 459 posts! What on earth have you been feeding the Thingy? There’s thingyshit all over the carpet and walls and how are we going to get that Jean-stench out of the drapes? Would somebody at least light some Respectful Incense™ (Rapturous Reason is my fave) and let’s try to get this joint cleaned up before ol’ Blinky Box shows up and reads us the riot act.

  461. #461 lilady
    December 19, 2011

    I am innocent!!! I scarcely fed SFB Thingy troll…I merely named it and baptized it with RI holy water.

    Yuck, the place reeks of Thingy’s brown brain matter…who knew that its head was going to explode.

    We really need to clean up the blog and “terminally disinfect” sh** for brains troll.

  462. #462 Narad
    December 20, 2011

    What they have found from the diseased brain was a mutant measles virus hence it’s called SSPE virus. You’re confusing it with the wild-type measles virus that had caused the initial infection wherein they are genetically different from each other more so with the vaccine virus.

    Somebody mark the tape.

    P.S. I’m amazed that it got through this rant without bothering to mention for the sake of passers-by that “primary measles infection” is meant to include any and all forms of measles vaccination.

    P.P.S. OK, I lied about the “amazed” part.

  463. #463 W. Kevin Vicklund
    December 20, 2011

    I should clarify something for the lurkers. Thingy, as is always the case, is abusing medical terminology. In this case, it is the term “primary infection.” She is incorrectly using it to mean first-time infection. However, the correct use of the term is to mean an infection that doesn’t occur during a pre-existing infection, or in the recovery period afterwards (the type of infection that does occur then is called a secondary infection). So let’s run some scenarios:

    1) An unvaccinated child is infected by wild-type virus: primary infection

    2) A child is vaccinated with an LAV vaccine: primary infection (by some but not all definitions of infection): primary infection

    3) A previously vaccinated child is infected by wild-type virus: primary infection

    4) An AIDS patient is infected by wild-type virus: secondary infection

    5) A child that was vaccinated with KMV (only possible between 1963-67): not an infection (though it would leave them vulnerable to wild-type measles primary infection unless they got an LAV vaccine more than three months after the last KMV shot)

  464. #464 Narad
    December 20, 2011

    She is incorrectly using it to mean first-time infection.

    I don’t think that’s quite the dungheap it’s staked out, not that I expect consistency:

    And what is primary infection? It’s what you dumb infection promoters often refer to as “priming”.

  465. #465 Science Mom
    December 20, 2011

    @ Pareidolius, [snort]

  466. #466 Th1Th2
    December 20, 2011

    Prometheus,

    Although the syntax is unclear, it appears that the commenter is claiming that even though the incidence of SSPE fell following introduction of the live-attenuated measles vaccine, the fact that the cause of SSPE was not identified until after introduction of the vaccine is somehow “proof” that SSPE is caused by the measles vaccine strain.

    Except that I did not claim that there was a reduction of SSPE following the introduction of measles vaccine in 1963. You made that assertion based on what you’ve perceived as a result of reduction in measles incidence. Despite the fact that there was a widespread inoculation with measles virus in the population and despite the fact that measles vaccine causes asymptomatic or subclinical measles infection, there’s no way you could claim that there had been  a reduction in SSPE when more people were put on risk in developing SSPE. Only in 1968, after five years of intense and massive  infection promotion concomitant with their ignorance about SSPE, have they realized that they had committed a grave mistake.

    The massive “failure to comprehend” comes from the fact that the commenter’s own citation clearly states that SSPE was a significant health problem “in the 1930’s and 1940’s”, well before the measles vaccine.

    And the reason they created the measles vaccine is because “SSPE was a significant health problem in the 1930’s and 1940’s? Is there also a reason as to why you’ve omitted the following knowledge deficit from the original quotation?

    When live measles vaccine became available in the early 1960s, the aetiology of SSPE was therefore unknown.

    No doubt, the commenter will next claim that this was “diagnostic substitution”, where the pre-1963 cause of SSPE simply “disappeared” and the measles vaccine strain caused an identical disorder, but at a much lower incidence.

    The blunder began in 1963 and the diagnostic substitution started in 1969 following the creation of SSPE Surveillance.

    Of course, to believe this, we would have to ignore the fact that sequencing of SSPE-causing measles strains has never shown a case arising from the vaccine strain.

    That goes to show wild-type measles virus has preceded vaccine virus in causing primary measles infection. You’re not arguing about measles vaccine-SSPE causation any more, are you?

    Now, in past comments, this same writer has made much of the fact that measles, as an RNA virus, mutates very rapidly. This is true, but does not preclude using sequencing to differentiate between wild-type strains or between wild-type and vaccine strains.

    The measles vaccine-SSPE causation was established in 1968 and that’s without sequencing. Valid? Yes.

  467. #467 Science Mom
    December 20, 2011

    The measles vaccine-SSPE causation was established in 1968 and that’s without sequencing. Valid? Yes.

    Nope. Hypothesised =/= Proven.

  468. #468 Th1Th2
    December 20, 2011

    Kevin,

    I should clarify something for the lurkers. Thingy, as is always the case, is abusing medical terminology. In this case, it is the term “primary infection.” She is incorrectly using it to mean first-time infection

    In immunology, that’s precisely what it’s meant. You don’t have to butcher it. In the vaccine world, it is the origin of the hackneyed term “prime” or “priming”

    However, the correct use of the term is to mean an infection that doesn’t occur during a pre-existing infection, or in the recovery period afterwards (the type of infection that does occur then is called a secondary infection).

    OK now you’ve lost me there. It appears that you have confused the first meaning to something that is being used in the aid of establishing medical diagnoses. The first definition of primary infection is strictly pathogen-specific hence re-infection by the same pathogen would result to secondary immune response (not to be confused with secondary infection). Now the latter definition of “primary infection” pertains to a primary or initial diagnosis of a disease or infection in which other non-specific diseases or infection which could arise from the original diagnosis are categorized under “secondary diagnoses” . Therefore,

    1) An unvaccinated child is infected by wild-type virus: primary infection

    True.

    2) A child is vaccinated with an LAV vaccine: primary infection (by some but not all definitions of infection): primary infection

    True.

    3) A previously vaccinated child is infected by wild-type virus: primary infection

    False. The child was “primed” to the disease and upon re-exposure to the same pathogen developed re-infection. Therefore, it’s no longer a primary infection.

    4) An AIDS patient is infected by wild-type virus: secondary infection

    True based on the primary diagnosis which is AIDS and the secondary diagnosis of a wild-type infection. This has nothing to do with primary vs secondary immune response against the same pathogen.

    5) A child that was vaccinated with KMV (only possible between 1963-67): not an infection (though it would leave them vulnerable to wild-type measles primary infection unless they got an LAV vaccine more than three months after the last KMV shot)

    It’s definitely a primary infection and upon re-exposure to wild-type measles virus, the result is a more serious case of measles infection called atypical measles.

  469. #469 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 20, 2011

    Per Wikipedia (not the best source, but hey…), “An infection is the colonization of a host organism by parasite species. Infecting parasites seek to use the host’s resources to reproduce, often resulting in disease.” A killed virus cannot colonize and does not seek to use the host’s resources to reproduce.

    Likewise, at http://science.education.nih.gov/supplements/nih1/diseases/guide/understanding1.htm it says “An infection results when a pathogen invades and begins growing within a host. Disease results only if and when, as a consequence of the invasion and growth of a pathogen, tissue function is impaired.” As a killed virus does not grow within the host, it is not an infection.

  470. #470 T-reg
    December 20, 2011

    Despite the fact that there was a widespread inoculation with measles virus in the population and despite the fact that measles vaccine causes asymptomatic or subclinical measles infection, there’s no way you could claim that there had been a reduction in SSPE when more people were put on [sic] risk in [sic] developing SSPE.
    Emphasis mine.

    There is a way to claim that there has been a reduction in the incidence of SSPE – surveillance i.e. actually finding out and recording how many cases of SSPE are diagnosed over the said time period.

    And about putting people at the risk of developing SSPE – it is a theoretical risk which actual observations have so far proved insignificant.

    That goes to show wild-type measles virus has preceded vaccine virus in causing primary measles infection. You’re not arguing about measles vaccine-SSPE causation any more, are you?

    When sequencing has never detected the vaccine virus in brain tissue of patients with SSPE but has detected the wild type virus always, how does that prove that the vaccine virus causes SSPE?

    Do you mean to imply that an infectious disease is caused even if the infection causing organism never infects the concerned tissue?

    I’d say Thingy is regressing. First it was: the mere presence of an infectious agent in the tissue causes an infectious disease (failure to understand the difference between disease and infection). Now it is: even the absence of an infectious agent from the concerned tissue can lead to an infectious disease.

  471. #471 Narad
    December 20, 2011

    In immunology, that’s precisely what it’s meant. You don’t have to butcher it. In the vaccine world, it is the origin of the hackneyed term “prime” or “priming”

    Etymology really isn’t your strong suit, kid.

  472. #472 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    December 20, 2011

    I am not a doctor, but in a quick Google search it appears that the term “primary infection” is used by some to mean “the first pathogen to infect an otherwise healthy person” and by others to mean”the first time one is exposed to a particular pathogen”. Much like bi-weekly means both twice a weak and once per fortnight.

  473. #473 Prometheus
    December 20, 2011

    More massive “failure to comprehend” incomment #466:

    “And the reason they created the measles vaccine is because “SSPE was a significant health problem in the 1930’s and 1940’s? Is there also a reason as to why you’ve omitted the following knowledge deficit from the original quotation?”

    When live measles vaccine became available in the early 1960s, the aetiology of SSPE was therefore unknown.”

    In my comment (#442), I mentioned that SSPE could hardly have been caused by the measles vaccine, as it was being intensely studied – according to the commenter’s own citation – in the 1930’s and 1940’s, decades before the measles vaccine was developed. Perhaps I wasn’t clear, but I’m not sure how anyone would have come to the conclusion that I meant the measles vaccine was developed to stop SSPE when the cause of SSPE, while suspected, was unknown at the time the measles vaccine was developed.

    In the same comment, there are indirect claims that SSPE was either unknown or that its incidence was unknown prior to institution of formal SSPE surveillance:

    “The blunder began in 1963 and the diagnostic substitution started in 1969 following the creation of SSPE Surveillance.”

    The sad fact is that SSPE does not have a subtle clinical presentation and it has rather characteristic pathological findings which make it unlikely to be missed. A progressive neurological disease that is universally fatal is not something that would have gone unnoticed.

    The final misapprehension in that comment was:

    “The measles vaccine-SSPE causation was established in 1968 and that’s without sequencing. Valid? Yes.”

    Establishing that measles causes SSPE did not require sequencing because the researchers only had to identify the “species” of virus, something that can be easily done with antibodies. Determining which strain of measles virus cauesed a specific case of SSPE requires sequencing, which was not available until about thirty years later.

    Again, much is made of the fact that the measles virus causing SSPE has mutated, which is true. However, there are genomic regions – even in SSPE strains – that cannot be mutated without rendering the virus incapable of replication, and those regions are used to identify the original strain of the virus.

    Clearly, the commenter in #466 is at the far left-hand side of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

    Prometheus

  474. #474 Th1Th2
    December 20, 2011

    Treg,

    There is a way to claim that there has been a reduction in the incidence of SSPE – surveillance i.e. actually finding out and recording how many cases of SSPE are diagnosed over the said time period.

    So where is this SSPE surveillance thingy that shows a reduction in SSPE incidence “thanks to vaccination” between 1963 and 1968? Well?

    And about putting people at the risk of developing SSPE – it is a theoretical risk which actual observations have so far proved insignificant.

    SSPE although rare is fatal. Don’t you just love/hate this gambit? “rare but serious”, “rare but deadly”?

    When sequencing has never detected the vaccine virus in brain tissue of patients with SSPE but has detected the wild type virus always, how does that prove that the vaccine virus causes SSPE?

    When the person had not had a history of natural measles but a history of measles vaccination as the primary infection. But then the virus found in the diseased brain is a mutant measles virus called SSPE virus which is genetically different from the two original viruses (i.e “We don’t know which to blame”). With this, the idea behind genome sequencing is to establish that a natural measles infection MUST have occurred (despite negative history) prior to measles vaccination and to correlate this mutant virus based on the then circulating wild-type measles virus throughout the course of the hypothetical exposure in order to absolve the vaccine of causing SSPE.

    I’d say Thingy is regressing. First it was: the mere presence of an infectious agent in the tissue causes an infectious disease (failure to understand the difference between disease and infection). Now it is: even the absence of an infectious agent from the concerned tissue can lead to an infectious disease.

    You don’t have any idea of what you’re talking about.

  475. #475 Pareidolius
    December 20, 2011

    Everyone run! The Thingy™ is has been set in a decompensating feedback loop and a core breach will result in an explosion resulting in stupefying levels of dumbfuckium235 contamination for several web nodes! I’m expendable, I’ll stay behind with some shiny things and try to keep the containment vessel from bursting, you save yourselves . . . tell mother, Bob and Angus I did my best . . .

  476. #476 Agashem
    December 20, 2011

    So let’s see:
    Polio is now AFP
    Measles is now SSPE
    So small pox is now????
    My daughter’s parotiditis was mumps
    TB is now COPD?? or Asthma?
    Am I getting the dance now?

  477. #477 dedicated lurker
    December 20, 2011

    No, polio is not AFP, it’s all paralysis ever. Please try to keep up with the crazy.

  478. #478 Narad
    December 20, 2011

    So small pox is now????

    Canonically, chicken pox. It’s really kind of sad to see Th1Th2 having to scrounge around for scraps of others’ crankery and then trying to “personalize” them like Sanda Lee gone awry.

  479. #479 Pareidolius
    December 20, 2011

    Seriously, guys, don’t be fooled by the silence. She’s gonna detonate any second now. Pressure has been building for more than two hours and containment integrity is down to 31.5% . . . and falling. Oh my god . . . it’s full of SARS!

  480. #480 Agashem
    December 20, 2011

    I think I am safe here in Canada, but I suggest the rest of you…..DUCK!!!

  481. #481 The Christian Cynic
    December 20, 2011
    In immunology, that’s precisely what it’s meant. You don’t have to butcher it. In the vaccine world, it is the origin of the hackneyed term “prime” or “priming”

    Etymology really isn’t your strong suit, kid.

    Hilarious. (The actual etymology is here.)

  482. #482 lilady
    December 20, 2011

    NOW…JUST…CUT…IT…OUT…GUYS. I’ve just climbed out of my hazmat suit and the decontamination shower…after a 24 hour cleanup procedure of this blog. I’ve hauled all the “red bag” waste to curbside and “terminally disinfected” the brown brain matter from the exploding SFB Thingy troll…and frankly, I am tired.

    Stop feeding the delusional, disease promoting, uneducated, health-care-professional wannabe troll!

  483. #483 Stu
    December 20, 2011

    I just want to state for the record: Thingy, DIAFF, you clinically insane misanthrope.

  484. #484 medical student
    December 22, 2011

    It saddens me that Mrs. Messenger lost her child. However, babies aren’t supposed to roll over until 4 months. Rolling over at 8 weeks is a sign of increased extensor tone. Opisthotonus may be evidence of diffuse cortical disease pre-vaccination. Orac, I’m not sure if an inborn error of metabolism can cause opisthotonus; my bet is a storage disorder, but I rotated on peds quite a while ago.

  485. #485 lilady
    December 22, 2011

    @ medical student: Apparently, Messenger stated in an interview that the consensus of her child’s specialists was the child had a genetic leukodystrophy…see my post at # 30 above.

  486. #486 Chris
    December 24, 2011

    Some ideas for last minute Christmas gifts:
    http://www.blissfulblightbooks.com/

    ;-)

  487. #487 LW
    December 24, 2011

    Those are wonderful, Chris. Such a pity they came out so late in the Christmas season. Perhaps there are eBook editions?

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