Respectful Insolence

In deciding to sue Brian Deer, Fiona Godlee, and the BMJ for Brian Deer’s BMJ article about his scientific fraud a year ago, Andrew Wakefield was clearly grabbing for publicity, seeking to fire up his supporters (which he’s largely succeeded in doing), and trying to make himself relevent again after the allegations published in the BMJ a year ago led to his further decline. Regarding making himself relevant again, I might caution Andy to be careful: He might just get what he wished for, just not in the way he wished it. After all, right before his lawsuit became public, Wakefield had already been listed by Medscape as the worst doctor of 2011 for his research fraud. What could come next?

How about being listed among the Great Science Frauds of all time by TIME Magazine, along with Woo Suk Huang and Charles Dawson (the latter of whom is particularly amusing, givne how Brian Deer referred to Andrew Wakefield’s work as “Piltdown medicine” in his expose for the BMJ)? Check it out:

Do vaccines cause autism? Medical experts say no, but we can thank Wakefield for introducing the doubt that won’t die in many parents’ minds. In 1998, the gastroenterologist at Royal Free Hospital in London published a study describing a connection between the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism, after he found evidence of these viruses, presumably from the shot, in the guts of a dozen autistic children, eight of whom developed autism-like symptoms days after receiving their vaccination.

Other scientists could not replicate Wakefield’s findings, nor verify a link between the vaccine and autism. In 2010, the journal that published his paper retracted it, and its editors noted that “it was utterly clear, without any ambiguity at all, that the statements in the paper were utterly false.” Later that year, the General Medical Council in the U.K. revoked Wakefield’s medical license, citing ethical concerns over how he recruited the patients in the study as well as his failure to disclose that he was a paid consultant to attorneys representing parents who believed their children had been harmed by vaccines.

The final shoe dropped a year later, when another prestigious medical journal concluded that his research was also fraudulent, after evidence that some of the timelines of the children’s symptoms were misrepresented.

Great going, Andy! Keep it up, and maybe you can be on more lists like this in 2012!

In the meantime, we are reminded of the power of vaccination by this story, which points out that it’s been a year since the last case of polio was recorded in India. Although it has been delayed by antivaccine sentiments based on religion and paranoid conspiracy theories, the eradication of polio is now–finally!–potentially achievable. Just as smallpox was eradicated. Compare and contrast: Thousands of cases of measles in the U.K. and Europe, largely thanks to the fear of the MMR stoked largely by Wakefield’s fraudulent research. No matter how much Wakefield’s antivaccine fans try to spin it otherwise, that is how Wakefield will be remembered by history, and, in my opinion, rightly so.

Comments

  1. #1 Th1Th2
    January 14, 2012

    In the meantime, we are reminded of the power of vaccination by this story, which points out that it’s been a year since the last case of polio was recorded in India. Although it has been delayed by antivaccine sentiments based on religion and paranoid conspiracy theories, the eradication of polio is now–finally!–potentially achievable.

    Ahh as usual Orac loves reading the tabloid. Let’s take a look shall we?

    India’s victory, if it’s validated by careful vetting over next few months, comes at a time when the possibility of global eradication has never never looked so close. When all the numbers for 2011 are in, WHO expects to count about 700 cases of polio — about half the total in 2010.

    Really?

  2. #2 MikeMa
    January 14, 2012

    History has a way of sorting people into their proper bin. Wakefield’s will be labeled ‘Dust’.

    Not sure what thingy is on about. Polio case numbers are at an all-time low and dropping. Good for India.

  3. #3 Babroella
    January 14, 2012

    Orac, don’t look now, but there’s a company in the US selling a cure for skin cancer, their share price just quadrupled, is it for real? Ticker CBIS.

    Even if Polio is eradicated, sugar cubes should still be given to kids when visiting the nurse or doctor. That’s the best part.

  4. #4 Steelclaws
    January 14, 2012

    Well, Wakefield is getting publicity all right, just not the kind this “brave maverick doctor” would want, unless he’s just going for notoriety.

    I don’t know either what Thingy is about – but since Thingy is not really understandable, that is nothing new.

  5. #5 Steelclaws
    January 14, 2012

    Well, Wakefield is getting publicity all right, just not the kind this “brave maverick doctor” would want, unless he’s just going for notoriety.

    I don’t know either what Thingy is about – but since Thingy is not really understandable, that is nothing new.

  6. #6 Narad
    January 14, 2012

    Not sure what thingy is on about.

    There’s a certain appealing symmetry to this entry in its oeuvre, as the quotes it chose could be reversed, or in fact replaced with pretty much anything else, and it would make just as much sense.

  7. #7 Ren
    January 14, 2012

    Thing is so delusional that she’d rather wait until someone shows symptoms before they’re excluded from social activities in light of a measles cluster. We’ve tried telling her time and time again that measles doesn’t show symptoms until after the person is infectious. And now we know that measles may not show symptoms at all, yet still kill someone:

    http://bit.ly/w85GwS

    And that is the hallmark of a Wakefielder, someone who is told the facts over and over but will not listen. I’m sure a flurry of posts is forthcoming to attack TIME, and that the cub scout reporter will find a number of degrees of separation between TIME editors and Big Bad Voodoo Pharma. Shall we say, by next Tuesday at the latest?

  8. #8 Krebiozen
    January 14, 2012

    So will Wakefield be suing Medscape and Time next?

    No cases of polio in India for a year, and only 700 globally in 2011 is somehow a bad thing on Planet Thingy? Sad.

  9. #9 Orac
    January 14, 2012

    Geez, Thingy’s latest entry in the comments is even dumber than its usual entries. I mean, seriously. No cases of polio recorded in India for a year and only 700 worldwide in 2011, only half the number recorded the year before? And Thingy thinks that’s evidence that my saying that the eradication of polio and is now “potentially achievable” is off-base? Geez, up is down and down really is up in Thing-world!

  10. #10 Rtcontracting
    January 14, 2012

    Nice to see Wakefield recognized for his efforts.

  11. #11 Harold L Doherty
    January 14, 2012

    “Thousands of cases of measles in the U.K. and Europe, largely thanks to the fear of the MMR stoked largely by Wakefield’s fraudulent research”

    Orac are you referring to the 1998 article? Can you link to any studies showing that that article is the sole or primary contributing cause? As opposed to other possible causes for fear of the MMR vaccine? Eg. reports of post vaccination “adverse events”? You have been writing daily for years on this subject. Are people not taking what you say seriously? Or are the attacks on Wakefield and vaccine safety questioners counterproductive by keeping the controversy in the public mind?

  12. #12 LAB
    January 14, 2012

    Did Thingy misunderstand what it read? It may have mistakenly thought “…WHO expects to count about 700 cases of polio” in India this year. But the 700, as I understand it, is a worldwide count. No recorded cases at all in India for 2011, as Orac stated.

  13. #13 Lawrence
    January 14, 2012

    I think Wakefield did a great job destroying his career – he didn’t need any help….commit fraud & you pay the price.

    What he is also guilty of is creating a false sense of fear in the minds of parents, which directly contributed to what we are seeing in Europe today – a reemergence of childhood diseases.

    At least here, in the United States, we don’t have a country next door with low vaccination rates (like Switzerland, for example) to readily export the diease across national borders. Of course, no small favor, since a majority of current outbreaks here can be linked to families coming back from overseas.

  14. #14 Guest
    January 14, 2012

    Is Mr Wakefield in trouble? He has to prove the BMJ did not believe what it said about him. But here is Robert Rust, pediatric neurologist, giving evidence in federal court in October 2007, talking about Wakefield’s research:

    ‘The gathering of information from nonsequential patients, demonstrating those patients in the medical literature in ways that misrepresent the manner in which those patients were gathered, failure to misrepresent economic advantage related to publication, a wide variety of things. The medical community is relatively forgiving about some things in its community, but scientific fraud is not one of those things that we forgive. We’d be very careful before we assign that sort of thing, but there is abundant evidence that that was the case here, and for us, it’s something that we don’t like…’

    Three years later, BMJ did not just pull this thing out of its ass, did it?

  15. #15 Andy Wakefield
    January 14, 2012

    Autism in the family? Developmental disorder in a loved one? Struggling to make ends meet?

    I WANT YOUR MONEY

    Hi, I’m Andy…

  16. #16 Chemmomo
    January 14, 2012

    Harold@11

    Orac are you referring to the 1998 article? Can you link to any studies showing that that article is the sole or primary contributing cause? As opposed to other possible causes for fear of the MMR vaccine? Eg. reports of post vaccination “adverse events”?

    Can you link to some studies that show MMR uptake is inversely correlated to reports of adverse events?

  17. #17 MMR confidence
    January 14, 2012

    Here is a chart of parental confidence in MMR and relation to Wakefield publishing.

    http://briandeer.com/mmr/uptake-stats.htm

    And here:

    http://briandeer.com/wakefield/measles-graphs-2008.htm

  18. #18 Anonymous
    January 14, 2012

    @15 and more. As someone involved in ‘autism’, starting out one thing was glaringly obvious to me. I put it to the back of my mind instantly of course, that I could cherry-pick a loyal harem of warrior single mums who nobody else listens to.

    A sociopath would have no such restraint.

  19. #19 Chemmomo
    January 14, 2012

    Lawrence@13

    At least here, in the United States, we don’t have a country next door with low vaccination rates (like Switzerland, for example) to readily export the diease across national borders.

    The problem is we don’t need a whole different country – we already have our own areas of low vaccination rates. I live in SD county, where we’ve already imported measles from overseas. I don’t want to think about what’s going to happen when the same kind of thing happens in Marin County (worse rates than ours). And, yeah, I did say when, not if.

  20. #20 Narad
    January 14, 2012

    Did Thingy misunderstand what it read?

    It scarcely matters. Th1Th2 presumably wants to play “AFP-is-polio, haha!” again.

  21. #21 LAB
    January 14, 2012

    @ #19 Chemmomo: And don’t forget that each Waldof school in the US is its own little unvaccinated “country.” Rudolph Steiner, a clairvoyant who knew all, started this school movement/cult. He saw that bad karma caused you to get diseases, and you needed to fight off these diseases in order to clear your karma. If you get vaccinated you never get to fight the disease, so it dogs you into your next life and your next, and the vaccination itself can destroy your soul. Something like that. Waldorf schools are all over the US and they’re full of unvaccinated kids.

  22. #22 MikeMa
    January 14, 2012

    @LAB:

    Waldorf schools are all over the US and they’re full of unvaccinated kids.

    Or as we like to call the, disease vectors.

  23. #23 Chemmomo
    January 14, 2012

    LAB@21
    Oh, I haven’t forgotten: Blue Mountain School, Virginia http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/282419

  24. #24 Th1Th2
    January 14, 2012

    And Thingy thinks that’s evidence that my saying that the eradication of polio and is now “potentially achievable” is off-base? Geez, up is down and down really is up in Thing-world!

    That’s funny because in 2000, there were only 719 polio cases worldwide. Yeah keep bragging Orac.

    Like I said before, poliomyelitis cannot be eradicated for as long as OPV is being used. Oh look, it’s exactly 12 years since they predicted polio would be eradicated in 2000. So your thought of polio eradication as being “potentially achievable” is actually an inevitable and disgraceful exit plan.

  25. #25 Narad
    January 14, 2012

    Like I said before, poliomyelitis cannot be eradicated for as long as OPV is being used.

    Well, it certainly can’t be eradicated by your preferred fantasy, so scurry along now.

  26. #26 MikeMa
    January 14, 2012

    False rumors of vaccine side effects reported to have contributed greatly to missing the original goal of eradicating polio by 2001 according to WHO.

    I suspect thingy has been seeding those rumors. For shame.

  27. #27 IreneD
    January 14, 2012

    That’s funny because in 2000, there were only 719 polio cases worldwide. Yeah keep bragging Orac.

    Reading comprehension, Thingy, try it for once! See what Orac wrote in his last paragraph?

    “In the meantime, we are reminded of the power of vaccination by this story, which points out that it’s been a year since the last case of polio was recorded in India. Although it has been delayed by antivaccine sentiments based on religion and paranoid conspiracy theories, the eradication of polio is now–finally!–potentially achievable.”

    (My emphasis.)

    Of course the illness comes back when part of the affected population stops taking the vaccine. The OPV was working in Africa, until religious integrists in Nigeria started claiming that vaccines were against the will of God. It created a situation where part of the population had got the live vaccine, while another part was left totally unprotected. This enabled the attenuated virus strain used in the vaccine to find new hosts and become more dangerous, an unfortunate example of microbe evolving when a new ecological niche opens, thanks to natural selection.

    And then, because people travel, the virus got out of Nigeria and the eradication of polio was delayed. What got the program back on track? New and better campaigns for vaccination and health education!

  28. #28 W. Kevin Vicklund
    January 14, 2012

    That’s funny because in 2000, there were only 719 polio cases worldwide.

    Correction: 719 confirmed wildtype polio cases. It wasn’t until 2001 that the infrastructure to differentiate between wildtype, OPV, and cVDPV cases was completed. Total polio cases that year was nearly 3,000. We were so close, but then Nigeria and Pakghanistandia had their program disrupted.

    Like I said before, poliomyelitis cannot be eradicated for as long as OPV is being used.

    And once wildtype poliovirus is eradicated, we can stop using OPV. Switch over to IPV in any areas where there’s cVDPV (which is actually quite rare), and poliomyelitis from any source will be gone in short order.

  29. #29 Th1Th2
    January 14, 2012

    Correction: 719 confirmed wildtype polio cases. It wasn’t until 2001 that the infrastructure to differentiate between wildtype, OPV, and cVDPV cases was completed. Total polio cases that year was nearly 3,000.

    That “correction” is definitely a realization among infection promoters. It only means one thing, the majority of polio cases were actually caused by the OPV and its derivative (VDPV).

  30. #30 Th1Th2
    January 14, 2012

    And once wildtype poliovirus is eradicated, we can stop using OPV. Switch over to IPV in any areas where there’s cVDPV (which is actually quite rare), and poliomyelitis from any source will be gone in short order.

    I think the OPV has taken over the wild-type as the leading cause of paralysis (99,843 paralysis in 2011 compared to only 13,857 in 1996). That’s more than a rumor.

  31. #31 Th1Th2
    January 14, 2012

    BTW Orac, in 2001, there were only 483 confirmed cases of polio. What gives? Are they doing a piss-poor job promoting the vaccine?

  32. #32 Narad
    January 14, 2012

    That’s more than a rumor.

    You’re right, it’s also “being late to one’s own lonesome party.”

  33. #33 Krebiozen
    January 14, 2012

    There were 665 total confirmed polio cases last year, of which 45 were due to vaccine derived polio virus, though the numbers will likely be updated in time. Thingy is 99,798 cases off, unless you believe there is an international conspiracy involving countless people intent on deceiving the world about the polio vaccine with the evil aim of crippling thousands for no apparent reason. If you do believe that, you might feel more at home at Prison Planet or whale.to, instead of a science blog that deals with facts and evidence.

  34. #34 lilady
    January 14, 2012

    “That’s funny because in 2000, there were only 719 polio cases worldwide. Yeah keep bragging Orac.”

    From: Unicef Press Centre Fact Sheet (and many other sources)

    Calendar Year 2000:

    * 2979 wild poliovirus cases are reported worldwide – a 99% decrease from 1988.
    * The WHO Western Pacific Region is certified polio-free on 29 October.
    * Seventeen west and central African countries vaccinate 76 million children during unprecedented ‘synchronized’ national immunization days (NIDs).
    * Over 240 000 childhood deaths are averted through administration of Vitamin A during polio immunization days in over 50 countries.
    * A poliovirus importation from Angola to the island nation of Cape Verde, polio-free for over a decade, resulted in 56 cases of paralysis, including 17 deaths.

    “That’s funny because in 2000, there were in fact 2,979 confirmed polio cases worldwide. Yeah keep bragging SFB delusional troll.”

    -FTFY SFB Troll

  35. #35 BMJ editor comments
    January 14, 2012

    BMJ is evidently confident of its position. Editor Fiona Godleee quoted on writ:

    http://doc2doc.bmj.com/forums/off-duty_general_bmj-editor-served-writ-andrew-wakefield

    Looks pretty bad news for Wakefield.

  36. #36 Th1Th2
    January 14, 2012

    Krebiozen,

    There were 665 total confirmed polio cases last year, of which 45 were due to vaccine derived polio virus, though the numbers will likely be updated in time.

    OK so we have the wild-type and VDPV but something is missing from the triad. Oh here it is, vaccine-related poliovirus which is usually excreted by OPV recipients hence the 99,000+ paralysis in 2011. So when they look at the stool sample from a paralytic and finds a vaccine-related poliovirus, that case is “discarded” as not polio.

    Bravo!

    Thingy is 99,798 cases off, unless you believe there is an international conspiracy involving countless people intent on deceiving the world about the polio vaccine with the evil aim of crippling thousands for no apparent reason.

    They’ve been doing that since 1935.

  37. #37 Th1Th2
    January 14, 2012

    IreneD,

    Of course the illness comes back when part of the affected population stops taking the vaccine. The OPV was working in Africa, until religious integrists in Nigeria started claiming that vaccines were against the will of God. It created a situation where part of the population had got the live vaccine, while another part was left totally unprotected. This enabled the attenuated virus strain used in the vaccine to find new hosts and become more dangerous, an unfortunate example of microbe evolving when a new ecological niche opens, thanks to natural selection.

    That is exactly what you would expect of the “advantages” and “benefits” of using OPV; by promoting the disease through secondary spread to close contacts hence “passive” immunity. You’re not complaining are you?

  38. #38 Th1Th2bot Service Center
    January 14, 2012

    Eh, even we don’t give a shit at this point. The bot has expressed an interest in a career change to becoming a convection oven.

  39. #39 Emily
    January 14, 2012

    Let the truth be known. Vaccinations had very little, if anything, to do with the decline in infectious diseases over the past 100 years. The rate of mortality & morbidity declined because of improved social conditions, which occurred well before the introduction of vaccines or anti-biotiocs.This is well known. Read the Role of Medicine by Professor Thomas McKeown, or How to Raise a Healthy Child by Professor Robert Mendelsohn or Medicine Out of Control by Dr Richard Taylor.

  40. #40 Lawrence
    January 14, 2012

    @Emily – so, how exactly does “improved sanitation” decrease the incidence of airborne diseases?

    What a stinking pile of crap you’ve delivered to our doorstep…..

  41. #41 Gardener
    January 14, 2012

    Emily that’s true, these diseases declined because of sewerage, better food, housing improvements, open windows, & other hygienic measures.

    Vaccinations have become the sacred cow of modern medicine & in a more enlightened age, will be looked on as nothing more than bad medicine. Fevers were regarded as harmful for 80 years by most of the medical profession, until March 2011 when the American Academy of Pediatricians (AAP) woke up to the truth & reversed its stance, despite this knowledge being known for over 50 years (Drs Tilden, Trall etc). Better late than never, although sadly it cost thousands of people’s lives.

    Vaccinations will one day become another medical reversal, but not for many years. There is too much power & money at stake.

  42. #42 Narad
    January 14, 2012

    The rate of mortality & morbidity declined because of improved social conditions, which occurred well before the introduction of vaccines or anti-biotiocs.

    That’s a pretty incompetent version even of this talking point, Emily.

  43. #43 Emily
    January 14, 2012

    Lawrence, just read Professor McKeown’s book The Role of Medicine. Not only does he state that vaccines had almost nothing to do with the decline in so-called “killer” infectious diseases, but he also quotes the WHO in stating that vaccination programs are indeed questionable in helping third word countries.

  44. #44 Narad
    January 14, 2012

    Vaccinations have become the sacred cow of modern medicine

    Hi, I lurve Sherri Tenpenny.

  45. #45 lilady
    January 14, 2012

    “Orac are you referring to the 1998 article? Can you link to any studies showing that that article is the sole or primary contributing cause?”

    Mr. Doherty, have you read the MMWR recently, about outbreaks of measles? I especially recommend for your perusal “Notes From The Field: Measles Outbreak—Hennepin County, Minnesota, February–March 2011″ (MMWR, April 8, 2011). You do know, don’t you, that Wakefield with his new “theory of increased risk for autism in Somali children after vaccination with MMR vaccine”, had targeted and met with Somali parents during three visits just prior to outbreak? You do know, don’t you, that the “index case” was an unvaccinated Somali child, infected in Africa who was responsible for secondary and terciary transmission of measles?

    “As opposed to other possible causes for fear of the MMR vaccine? Eg. reports of post vaccination “adverse events”? You have been writing daily for years on this subject. Are people not taking what you say seriously?”

    Mr. Doherty possible “adverse events” do not include autism onset…no matter what Wakefield states, no matter what notorious anti-vax website’s “science journalists” state and no matter what credulous parents “sense” or “intuit”.
    Orac and posters here do not deny the exceeding, practically infinitesimal rare “adverse event” associated with the MMR vaccine…or any other vaccine.

    “Or are the attacks on Wakefield and vaccine safety questioners counterproductive by keeping the controversy in the public mind?”

    Mr. Doherty…see my comment about Wakefield’s forays into the Somali community in Minneapolis. Perhaps you are unaware that I am retired from public health. I worked in the Division of Communicable Disease Control and in public health clinics. I saw first hand the impact that Wakefield, had and continues to have on the public health system in the United States. He and his “minions” at anti-vax websites continue to stir up the sh** with their bogus theories about autism and vaccines.

    Wakefield’s latest gambit is the lawsuit he instituted against the BMJ, Fiona Godlee and Brian Deer. Isn’t about time that this disgraced public health menace fade from the picture and take the NVIC, AoA, SaneVax and their gullible sycophants with them?

  46. #46 Rtcontracting
    January 14, 2012

    Emily & Gardener:

    Please read this book:

    http://www.amazon.com/Smallpox-Eradication-History-International-Public/dp/9241561106

    After you’re done reading the 1500 pages, please let me know what role “improved social conditions” played in eradicating smallpox in places like Bangladesh, Ethiopia and Samolia.

  47. #47 Ren
    January 14, 2012

    Too much money and power in vaccines. Oh, my God, I laughed so hard on that one. Yeah, vaccine manufacturers are just swimming in money from vaccines. I mean, why create and market Viagra when you can just stop polio or prevent meningitis? Let’s make a business decision: instead of selling antibiotics and extended stays in hospitals from infections, let’s prevent the friggin’ things. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

    I am yet to hear ONE anti-vaccine talking point that is either scientifically verifiable or passes the test of common sense. I’m waiting, though. You know where to find me when you do.

  48. #48 Chris
    January 14, 2012

    Emily and Gardener, can you please tell us why the morbidity (rate) of measles went down 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970? Do not change the subject to mortality (deaths), any other country nor any other decade. Just answer the question.

    Please provide actual citations in your response, not those books. Or a obscure claims by the a medical entity with some names like Gardener used. The citations should be official government cites like the one below, or the title, journal and dates of PubMed indexed papers.

    Here is the data:

    From http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf
    Year…. Rate per 100000 of measles
    1912 . . . 310.0
    1920 . . . 480.5
    1925 . . . 194.3
    1930 . . . 340.8
    1935 . . . 584.6
    1940 . . . 220.7
    1945 . . . 110.2
    1950 . . . 210.1
    1955 . . . 337.9
    1960 . . . 245.4
    1965 . . . 135.1
    1970 . . . . 23.2
    1975 . . . . 11.3
    1980 . . . . . 5.9
    1985 . . . . . 1.2
    1990 . . . . .11.2

  49. #49 lilady
    January 14, 2012

    “Fevers were regarded as harmful for 80 years by most of the medical profession, until March 2011 when the American Academy of Pediatricians (AAP) woke up to the truth & reversed its stance, despite this knowledge being known for over 50 years (Drs Tilden, Trall etc). Better late than never, although sadly it cost thousands of people’s lives.”

    I don’t think “Gardener” interpreted the “Pediatrics” article correctly. Gardener where does it say in the article that the AAP are reversing “its stance, despite this knowledge being known for over 50 years”? Here is the substance of the Pediatrics article…instead of “Gardener’s interpretation”.:

    Fever in a child is one of the most common clinical symptoms managed by pediatricians and other health care providers and a frequent cause of parental concern. Many parents administer antipyretics even when there is minimal or no fever, because they are concerned that the child must maintain a “normal” temperature. Fever, however, is not the primary illness but is a physiologic mechanism that has beneficial effects in fighting infection. There is no evidence that fever itself worsens the course of an illness or that it causes long-term neurologic complications. Thus, the primary goal of treating the febrile child should be to improve the child’s overall comfort rather than focus on the normalization of body temperature. When counseling the parents or caregivers of a febrile child, the general well-being of the child, the importance of monitoring activity, observing for signs of serious illness, encouraging appropriate fluid intake, and the safe storage of antipyretics should be emphasized.

    (Source: Pediatrics: Clinical Report: Fever and Antipyretic Use Use In Children-Janice E. Sullivan, M.D., etal)

    (hint to “Gardiner”-Phrases such as “X were regarded as harmful by most of the medical profession”, “It is well-known fact that Y…” and “I think or believe that Z…” raise red flags with people who actually know the science behind medicine and vaccines.)

  50. #50 Matthew Cline
    January 14, 2012

    @Krebiozen:

    So will Wakefield be suing Medscape and Time next?

    He’ll wait until the statute of limitation has almost run out and then sue them.

  51. #51 Krebiozen
    January 14, 2012

    Emily and Gardener,

    It’s probably true that 90% of the reduction in morbidity and mortality from (some) infectious diseases over the past 100 years was due to improved hygiene and other improvements in social conditions. However, that last 10% due to vaccination and other improvements in medical care, such as antibiotics, is very important.

    For example, the reduction in mortality from TB from 500 per 100,000 in 1850, to 46 per 100,000 in 1940 was probably mostly due to improved social conditions. But the reduction from the 1940 level to essentially zero as it is today is mostly due to vaccinations and improved medical care. Can you imagine if 46 per 100,000 people died of TB in the USA every year? That would be more than 130,000 people every year, 10 times the current homicide rate and more than twice the number of people killed in automobile accidents. I could quote similar figures for several other infectious diseases. As I say, that last 10% is very important.

    Anyway, if vaccination doesn’t prevent infectious diseases, and they were entirely reduced or eradicated by improved social conditions, why is it that every time vaccination uptake falls it is followed by outbreaks of the disease. Look at the fall in pertussis vaccinations in the UK in the late 70s and 80s due to a false vaccine scare that resulted in huge outbreaks of whooping cough and dozens of deaths. Look at the current situation in Europe, especially France, where thousands of cases of measles, hundreds of cases of pneumonia and encephaliitis and several deaths are the result of a fall in vaccination rates. Pertussis and measles in the USA is following a similar pattern though it is not yet as serious.

    Or look at the UK where there is no vaccination for chicken pox, and almost everyone gets chicken pox as a child. In the USA where chicken pox vaccination is routine, chicken pox is rare. Are Brits just much less hygienic than Americans, and that is why there is such a huge difference?

    Really, it is silly to suggest that vaccines don’t work. There are hundreds of controlled studies from around the world that demonstrate very clearly that they do.

  52. #52 Krebiozen
    January 14, 2012

    I hate Scienceblogs moderation algorithms.

  53. #53 lilady
    January 14, 2012

    @ Emily: This is your statement:

    Professor McKeown’s book The Role of Medicine. Not only does he state that vaccines had almost nothing to do with the decline in so-called “killer” infectious diseases, but he also quotes the WHO in stating that vaccination programs are indeed questionable in helping third word countries.

    Gee Emily, I haven’t read McKeown’s book…for most of my career in public health, I was investigating “killer” infectious diseases that really do kill and maim the innocent.

    Gee Emily, I also read extensively about the activities of the WHO and haven’t come across any such statement that questions vaccination programs…anywhere in the world. Could you possibly provide, some more information, like a citation, maybe…from that (unknown entity) at the WHO?

  54. #54 Lawrence
    January 14, 2012

    What these “morons” refuse to take into account is, yes, modern medicine was able to prevent more people from dying from these diseases, but they were completely unable to prevent the various serious secondary problems – like sterility, blindess, etc. from happening as well.

    So yes, there was an overall decrease in the number of people who died from these childhood dieases before the advent of the various vaccines, but #1 – not nearly to the extent as after the vaccines were introduced, and #2 – they did nothing to prevent the various secondary side-effects to occur (blindness, sterility, enchephilitis, etc).

    Whereas vaccines prevent the disease from happening in the first place, and any side-effects are magnitudes lower than what occured with the actual disease itself.

    So, go pound sand, you have no idea what you are talking about.

  55. #55 Narad
    January 14, 2012

    Should anyone care where Gardener is coming from, Russell Thacker Trall and John H. Tilden were run-of-the-mill 19th- and early 20th-century “natural hygiene” types.

  56. #56 Chris
    January 14, 2012

    I tried to find out what Gardener was talking about, so I Googled using “March 2011 when the American Academy of Pediatricians (AAP) woke up to the truth & reversed its stance, despite this knowledge being known for over 50 years (Drs Tilden, Trall “, and then cut it down to “March 2011 American Academy of Pediatricians Tilden Trall.” This is what I found: a comment from a “Dr. Greg” at the Australian (anti)Vaccination Network blog:

    This was highlited in March 2011 when the American Academy of Pediatricians (AAP) acknowledged that fevers WERE important & beneficial & were not to be routinely interfered with. This medical reversal was huge, even though tragically late, & still today we see kids routinely having their fevers suppressed. Medical students are still taught to view fevers as antagonistic to health. This medical reversal should never have had to occur, had medical training been based on biological principles which were known over 100 years ago ( Drs Trall, Jennings, Tilden etc).

    There are other parts that Gardener poorly plagiarized. He is either “Dr. Greg” or just cannot think for himself.

    I also checked a couple of American Academy of Pediatrics websites and PubMed for “Trall” but found nothing. I checked PubMed for “tilden” and found several papers, but none in March 2011. Which is why we insist on more information in cites.

  57. #57 LAB
    January 14, 2012

    @ #47 Chris:

    The answer is “sewerage, better food, housing improvements, open windows, & other hygienic measures” learned from Leave it to Beaver. This program began in late 1957, ran until 1963, and continued in syndication to 1970 and beyond. June Cleaver kept a spotless, aired-out house and was a super cook. Americans learned how to wash their hands, teeth, and dishes by watching Wally and the Beav do these things. I was a kid in the 60s and 70s, I watched Leave it to Beaver, and I never got measles. If it wasn’t for Tony Dow (and Florence Bush for that matter), we’d all be dead. I don’t think I need PubMed to make this obvious point.

  58. #58 Chris
    January 14, 2012

    Krebiozen, so do I. I found a comment that almost matched Gardenr’s comment on Meryl Dorey’s blog posted by a chiropractor/naturopath in Australia.

  59. #59 Krebiozen
    January 14, 2012

    Lawrence,

    Emily is also denying that antibiotics had any effect either! I have a comment in moderation about this. It is easy to forget that in 1900 the biggest killers were pneumonia, TB, diphtheria and diarrhea, and up to a third of children died in infancy. Improvements in social conditions reduced morbidity and mortality from horrendous to simply awful. It was modern medicine in general and antibiotics and vaccines in particular that reduced them from simply awful to relatively rare in the developed world.

    Vaccine and modern scientific medicine opponents seem to want us to go back to the days of “simply awful”.

  60. #60 Krebiozen
    January 14, 2012

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4838a2.htm
    Worth a read for a discussion of the relative contribution of public health measures to the amazing reduction in infant mortality from 1900 to 1999.

    A quote, “from 1930 through 1949, mortality rates declined 52%”. Those were some pretty heavy duty improvements in social conditions in 20 years that included the 2nd World War.

  61. #61 Krebiozen
    January 14, 2012

    Just noticed LAB above.

    I watched Leave it to Beaver, and I never got measles.

    How did you learn to avoid getting a disease that is spread by coughing and inhalation of viruses in aerosols by watching a TV show? Did it teach you to hold your breath for the entire school day? Would sending a subtitled version of Leave it to Beaver to France halt the epidemic of measles there? Or are you joking?

  62. #62 Chemmomo
    January 14, 2012

    Emily,
    Read Vaccine by Arthur Allen, and Polio an American Story by David Oshinsky.

    Why are you recommending books written in 1980, (McKeown), 1987 (Mendelsohn), and 1979 (Taylor)? Please try joining us in the 21st century.

  63. #63 Chris
    January 14, 2012

    Krebiozen, he is joking. Anyway, the program was only produced between 1957 and 1963.

  64. #64 Ren
    January 14, 2012

    Didn’t the good Dr. Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP, also say that mumps wasn’t that bad since the Brady Bunch kids got through it fine or something like that?

  65. #65 Chemmomo
    January 14, 2012

    @lilady #50 re Emily’s Thomas McKeown book recommendation:
    I haven’t read it either, but I was able to dig up some Amazon reviews (no mean trick for a book that old). One of the two reviewers commented that one of McKeown’s points is that he’d prefer the money spent on vaccination be used to provide free meals for poor school children. The reviewer, even though she gave the book 4 stars, was not sold on that particular point.

    And I think it’s worth noting again that the book was published in 1980.

  66. #66 lilady
    January 14, 2012

    @ Ren: I think you are right about Dr. Jay’s tweet regarding mumps…that was picked up by AoA and “other” websites.

    I also recall a memorable “tweet” exchange between a science blogger on his “Epidemiology Night School” website and Dr. Jay about the 2011 measles outbreak in Minneapolis:

    Epidemiology Night School: Introduction to Outbreaks (or “Don’t expect Dr. Jay to understand all this stuff”)

  67. #67 Narad
    January 14, 2012

    Didn’t the good Dr. Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP, also say that mumps wasn’t that bad since the Brady Bunch kids got through it fine or something like that?

    Measles.

  68. #68 Emily
    January 14, 2012

    From the esteemed Professor McKeown, in his book The Role of Medicine:

    ” No knowledgeable person is likely to dispute that we owe the vast increase in expectation of life & reduction of associated morbidity to changes which occurred before effective clinical intervention was possible” p166;

    ” The effect of immunization on a population which is underfed is something of an open question…it is questionable whether infectious disease can be controlled by vaccination in a malnourished population” p162

    If by chance you wish to call Professor McKeown ignorant, consider that The Lancet said in their journal it was “a remarkable book”; The NEJM: “exceptionally important & readable”; The BMJ: ” McKeown’s analysis is all the more valuable for its balance as well as for its clarity.” High recommendation indeed!

    WHO Report: A Deadly Combination; Feb/March 1974:

    ” We have given too much attention to the enemy & have to some extent overlooked our own defences. For the time being, an adequate diet is the most effective ‘vaccine’ against most of the diarrhoeal, respiratory & other common infections” (Here, the attention to the enemy was the vaccinations).

    Professor Robert Mendelsohn: How to Raise a Healthy Child :

    ” The greatest threat of childhood diseases lies in the dangerous & ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunization.Immunizations have been so artfully & aggressively marketed…much of what you have been led to believe about them simply isn’t true…. Although I adminstered them myself during the early years of my practice, I have since become a steadfast opponent of mass inoculations because of the myriad hazards they present. There is no scientific evidence that they can be credited with eliminating ANY (my emphasis) childhhod disease.” pp 209-210

    I could go on but time is the enemy.

  69. #69 trrll
    January 14, 2012

    The answer is “sewerage, better food, housing improvements, open windows, & other hygienic measures” learned from Leave it to Beaver. This program began in late 1957, ran until 1963, and continued in syndication to 1970 and beyond. June Cleaver kept a spotless, aired-out house and was a super cook. Americans learned how to wash their hands, teeth, and dishes by watching Wally and the Beav do these things. I was a kid in the 60s and 70s, I watched Leave it to Beaver, and I never got measles. If it wasn’t for Tony Dow (and Florence Bush for that matter), we’d all be dead. I don’t think I need PubMed to make this obvious point.

    You might want to learn something about measles, because it is one of the diseases that sanitation doesn’t protect you from. Measles is one of the most contagious viruses known, and it primarily spread through the air. Indeed, people have caught measles simply by being in the same room that a person with measles was in previously. So if you didn’t catch measles, you were probably just lucky. But that good luck could turn bad, because with unfounded fears of measles vaccination that are have continued to circulate even years after Wakefield was discredited, herd immunity is broken in many parts of the country, so you could easily be exposed just by walking by somebody who has it. And measles is more severe in adults. Perhaps you should get vaccinated.

  70. #70 Lawrence
    January 14, 2012

    Actually Emily, your ignorance is the enemy.

  71. #71 lilady
    January 14, 2012

    Emily…I too have time constraints. Just a quickie comment about your hero Dr. Mendelsohn; he has an entire page on the whale.to website.

    I suggest you educate yourself in science-based medicine, not the deluded ramblings of this quack doctor…then come back to post here.

  72. #72 Emily
    January 14, 2012

    To Chemmomo: If McKeown in 1980 to you is outdated, then what do we call Edward Jenner in 1798?

  73. #73 Chris
    January 14, 2012

    Emily, any reason why you did not answer my fairly simple question? Why did the measles morbidity drop by 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970?

  74. #74 Andrew
    January 14, 2012

    If you find someone citing Jenner as his or her only reference regarding vaccines, we’ll be glad to criticize.

  75. #75 Chris
    January 14, 2012

    Emily:

    To Chemmomo: If McKeown in 1980 to you is outdated, then what do we call Edward Jenner in 1798?

    A historical figure, and whose vaccine was modified over the years. Plus there have been no smallpox outbreaks in decades.

    Please answer my question.

  76. #76 Emily
    January 14, 2012

    To Lilady:

    Medicine is science-based? Whas that my imagination when I read that Glaxo-Smith Kline was fined $3 BILLION for fraud & dishonesty in its drug testing/marketing? Science at its best!

    The outgoing head of Medicare & Medicaid 2 months ago, Dr Donald Berwick, stating that fraud & overtreatment in the States causes thousands of deaths a year, 250 billion dollars pa & that up to one third of ALL medicine was a complete waste.

    The founder of the PSA test for prostate problems, Dr Richard Ablin, himself stating the test he developed was “no better than a coin toss! & he was appalled that the test had become a medical cash-cow, with very little benefit.

    Please understand that medicine & science rarely cross paths!

  77. #77 Chris
    January 14, 2012

    Emily, please tell us why measles morbidity in 1970 was only 10% of what is was in 1960 in the USA.

    Support your answer with the title, journal and dates of the papers that explain how the rate of measles plunged so dramatically. Thank you.

  78. #78 Thomas
    January 14, 2012

    Emily: Thank you for admitting that pharmaceutical companies are monitored by the government and punished for doing wrong. You’re considerably smarter than the folks who claim that a massive coverup of problems with vaccines exists.

  79. #79 Emily
    January 14, 2012

    Thomas, why doesn’t the government pull PSA testing off the honor roll? Why are GSK still allowed to do business with the US Government despite being found flagrantly guilty of fraud, when its contract states that fraudulent companies can not do business with the gov’t? And by the way, 3 billion is simply the “cost of doing business” (WAll Street). And Chris, there are many anomalies in life as there are in medicine. I will do my due diligence, but give me a while.

    Meanwhile, I will raise my 4 unvaccinated children as naturally as possible & use modern medicine if & when there is a need, thus becoming a discerning consumer.

  80. #80 Chris
    January 14, 2012

    Emily:

    And Chris, there are many anomalies in life as there are in medicine. I will do my due diligence, but give me a while.

    Thank you.

  81. #81 Amused
    January 14, 2012

    As far as antibiotics not decreasing mortality, Emily, do you know what TB was nicknamed until antibiotics helped us fight back? It was called “the captain of the horsemen of death”. It wasn’t until antibiotics gave most of us a fighting chance that people stopped viewing TB (called consumption back in the day) as anything more than a painful and extended death sentence. This was especially true among patients getting secondary infections from viral infections like the flu.

  82. #82 Steelclaws
    January 14, 2012

    Emily, please keep your unvaccinated disease vectors away from any kids/grown-ups who may be immunosuppressed or unable to be vaccinated for other reasons and who have to rely on herd immunity.

  83. #83 Narad
    January 14, 2012

    Why are GSK still allowed to do business with the US Government despite being found flagrantly guilty of fraud, when its contract states that fraudulent companies can not do business with the gov’t?

    Emily, it might simplify the discussion if you would identify what you’re talking about rather than putting a bunch of sense impressions in a jar, shaking them up, and pouring them out.

    First you’re referring to Avandia marketing, which is not a fraud case, then divert through “one third of ALL medicine was a complete waste” to PSA testing and then fraud again (Cidra?) and on to some random assertion about “its contract” and back to Avandia. It’s rather difficult to follow.

  84. #84 Chemmomo
    January 14, 2012

    Emily:

    I could go on but time is the enemy.

    Yes, it is! It is your enemy. Time, and progress.

    You’re supporting your position by cherry picking quotes from a book published 32 years ago, available through Amazon as a paperback from used booksellers, and that my public library doesn’t have! (They do have one of his other works, The Origins of Human Disease, but they’re not open this late on a Saturday.) I have no way of evaluating what McKeown acutally wrote for myself. In any case, who cares if the Lancet considered it remarkable 32 years ago? Time, and scientific progress, march on. We have 32 more years’ worth of data today than McKeown did.
    And your WHO quote from 1974? Are you kidding me? How about if we take a look at the WHO website today, in 2012, and check out their current recommendations? This pages links to tables of recommended vaccines for various ages groups: http://www.who.int/immunization/policy/immunization_tables/en/index.html
    This is what WHO recommends, now.
    And your quotation from Mendelsohn only suggests that he became a crackpot. He wrote that after smallpox (which I’ll admit is a disease not exclusive to childhood) had been eliminated. Why would anyone take a person with such a loose grasp of facts seriously?

    As for Jenner, if you think the smallpox vaccine that I received as a child but is no longer routinely administered due to the eradication of the disease is the exact same thing that Jenner used two centuries ago, you’re even more ignorant than I thought.
    Oh, and if your time is so precious, why is it that in the time it took me to compose this post (including searching the WHO website), you posted two more times, without actually addressing any of the questions asked of you earlier?

    Again, please join us in the 21st century. And if your library is open tomorrow, go check out a copy of Arthur Allen’s Vaccine and read it.

  85. #85 Chemmomo
    January 14, 2012

    One more try:
    I now have a comment in moderation addressing Emily. And a second comment complaining about the moderation. Perhaps a bit too specifically. Hopefully this one will go through.

  86. #86 Krebiozen
    January 14, 2012

    Emily,

    why doesn’t the government pull PSA testing off the honor roll

    I’ve been responsible for issuing thousands of PSA reports. It’s a very useful test when used properly. When used for monitoring the progress of a man with confirmed prostate cancer it is invaluable. As an indiscriminate screening test, not so much – too many false positives.

    We would only do a PSA on men who had symptoms of prostatic problems, but that was in an NHS lab in the UK where we had a limited budget and the power to say no to doctors requesting tests that were not clinically indicated. I also worked for a private hospital for a while where we just did whatever the doctor ordered, as s/he was paying for it. The science is not to blame, it’s politics, doctors scared of being sued, and patients insisting on the latest tests that are the real problems with PSA. The science about when it is useful and when it isn’t is quite clear.

  87. #87 Denice Walter
    January 14, 2012

    @ Emily:

    Pharmaceutical company employees, doctors, and government officials can all commit fraud because they are *people*- who can be corrupt regardless of their profession. It is simply human nature: because our minds utilise linguistic representations we can easily- and duplicitously- know one thing and say another. We can plan, manipulate, and disguise our motives in order to benefit ourselves. Some people are very good at this: lying becomes second nature- perhaps they even fool themselves.

    If you condemn an entire industry or the medical establishment ( let’s not forget the media and government while we’re at it: fraud is everywhere!) you’ll need to apply that mechanism – “an example of fraud means- don’t trust the whole sector”- to alt med as well. Fraud has been perpetrated by natural health providers ( see Quackwatch); there is a less oversight because there are no standards for education, training, and review. I survey these proselytisers and believe that their constant finger pointing at medical and pharma fraud is merely a way to recruit new customers while distracting their clients from their own deceitful advertisement, unsubstantiated claims, and foolhardy untested treatments.

  88. #88 Ren
    January 14, 2012

    Let me get this straight.

    If a multinational company that makes drugs (and immunizations, because I don’t classify vaccines personally as drugs) commits fraud, let’s wipe the slate clean and get rid of all of their products no matter how beneficial they were found to be?

    On the other hand, if a charlatan sells you snake oil and promises that it will cure whatever ails you while, at the same time, writing in the fine print that their product is not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any disease… Well, by all means, let’s buy from them and buy a lot. Because selling you a placebo is not fraud, don’t you know?

    Selling you magic in a homeopathic remedy or an industrial chelant to add to your Frosted Flakes is not fraud. Injecting your own urine (which your God-given kidneys got rid of for a reason), that’s not fraud? All of those things advertised in anti-vax sites that will detoxify you and reverse autism (though they’re not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any disease) are not fraud? No. They’re all natural, so they’re all good.

    (Because nature intended for you to inject your own urine back into your veins, don’t you know?)

    It’s the big companies that are regulated up the ass like it’s no body’s business to make sure that their mistakes are caught and corrected or punished that are corrupt that is the source of all evil. It’s that big conspiracy that is a huge secret that only you, the anti-vaxers, know about but are giving away by having some dude toss dice and figure out twelve degrees of separation between people.

    How dumb do you really think people are?

    I’d like to see the homeopaths, the alternating energy (AC not DC) healers, put their money where their mouth is and not put the “quack miranda notice” on their sites and on their advertisements. If you believe so much in them, then take off the disclaimer and let the bodies hit the floor chips fall where they may.

    Oh, and all the anti-vax, anti-science people, groups, and websites, don’t bullsh*t us with the whole “we’re here to educate” or “we just want you to be an informed consumer”. No, no, no, no! Embrace who you are and stop playing this game. If you really wanted the “consumer” to be informed, you’d accept who you are, where your data anecdotes come from, and then let reasonable people decide if they want to listen to you or to the people that have put in the time and effort to understand basic biology.

    Then again, there’s a sucker born a minute.

  89. #89 Chris
    January 14, 2012

    I have spent a bit too much time reading articles on McKeown. Most of what I got out of it was that he was big on ignoring major portions public health policies and their relationship with population growth. He also did not notice that populations started to stabilize and not grow in some industrial countries (Japan, most of Europe, portions of the USA). It would be interesting to see him interact with Dr. Hans Rosling of the Gapminder, whose videos exquisitely show that reducing child mortality and increasing maternal education cuts down on population growth. Which is also noted in a National Geographic article on population.

    This article, Rethinking McKeown, is very interesting. He seem to support McKeown by starting out saying:

    In my view each of the authors of the May 2002 Health Policy and Ethics Forum on McKeown1–3 misses his essential message, namely that “health has advanced significantly only since the late eighteenth century and until recently owed little to medical advances.”4

    But then describes his experience in a developing country:

    During the early 1960s, accompanied by my pregnant new wife, I traveled to Papua New Guinea to work as a children’s medical officer. At that time village social life was very traditional and was supported by a subsistence agricultural economy. Patterns of health and disease were also traditional, with endemic malaria, malnutrition, tuberculosis, diarrheal and respiratory diseases, neonatal tetanus, polio, intestinal worms, yaws, and high maternal mortality due to hemorrhage and infection. Infant mortality was more than 50% in some isolated settlements.

    But his last paragraph totally goes counters to his opinion (emphasis added):

    Although we lived literally in the middle of this village, neither my wife, our new baby, nor I succumbed to any of these lethal conditions. Neither did any of my White colonial expatriate colleagues. Why? Because we could afford good food, clean water, mosquito screens, shoes that prevented hookworms from entering our feet, and antenatal care, and of course we had been vaccinated against polio, tetanus, and mumps We also had health-related knowledge and technology—we knew the importance of handwashing and avoiding mosquito bites at dusk, and we had safe water supplies and safe systems for disposal of sewage. In other words, we had inherited the economic advantages, social behavior, and medical technology that combined to radically reduce the risk of malnutrition and communicable disease. This inheritance was not, of course, available to traditional Papua New Guineans.

    I don’t think vaccines are just an economic benefit. There is a reason that measles in declining in Africa and increasing in Europe. I also noticed that McKeown as in the UK when there was no vaccine for mumps, and no MMR (he died in 1988).

    Oh, rats, this got so long it is going into moderation. So I’ll just list the other articles (not bothering with html):
    http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/30/6/1260.full
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447153/
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447152/
    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2808%2960292-5/fulltext

    Happy reading. And I really hope Emily answers my question, I have been so disappointed with others previous attempts (though they have been somewhat amusing).

  90. #90 Chris
    January 14, 2012

    To add to Ren’s rant, I suggest everyone look at the link he provided in Comment #7. I want someone to seriously tell me that the French medical system actually paid Big Pharma less money because the patient did not get two MMR vaccines compared to the pharmaceuticals used in her hospital treatment. Really, was the hospital cost that much cheaper than the entire pediatric vaccines series?

    (oh, and I have a comment in moderation, doncha know)

  91. #91 lilady
    January 14, 2012

    Emily…The PSA test and its validity as a screening test is being debated right now in the United States. The USPSTF (United States Preventive Services Task Force) recently recommended that it should not be used for “routine screening of any man”. Prior to this the USPSTF had recommended that the test should not be used for “routine screening of men age 75 and older”. The American Urological Association has raised some strong objections as have other physicians…and the general public. The debate is ongoing.

    Emily, that is how Science works. Researchers, doctors and epidemiologists are constantly evaluating the value of screening blood tests and other screening modalities (mammograms and Pap smears) for low risk patients.

    As Krebiozen stated “I’ve been responsible for issuing thousands of PSA reports. It’s a very useful test when used properly. When used for monitoring the progress of a man with confirmed prostate cancer it is invaluable. As an indiscriminate screening test, not so much – too many false positives.”

    (anecdotal and coincidental): Yesterday, a close friend contacted me…a wee bit hysterical…about her husband’s PSA blood test. The physician who ordered the test and who had done a prostate biopsy a year ago..diagnosed BPH (benign prostatic hypertrophy)…and was “monitoring” this benign condition. My friend had to be talked off the precipice (she tends to get that “way”). I emailed her some articles written about PSA tests from the Science Based Medicine website…she is now at ease and will not ask the doctor to immediately repeat the test.

  92. #92 Emily
    January 14, 2012

    If you want to get an accurate picture of the medical landsacape, & you think that 1980 is ancient, then let’s travel to 1999 & the Journal of the American Medical Association editorial.This stated that the fourth leading cause of death in the world, after CHD, cancer & strokes, was modern medical drugs, prescibed properly & according to professional standards of care. When factoring in medical mistakes, including improperly prescribed drugs, it becomes the third leading cause of death.It stated that each year over 100,000 patients are killed by such drugs, properly prescribed! Over 1.2 million dead through medical drugs since that editorial. Great science!

    Read Death by Presciption by Dr Ray Strand, & then tell me he is also a “nutter” for changing the way he practiced based on these scary 1999 revelations of his “bible” ie the JAMA.Call him a “quack” for harshly criticizing his own profession?

    One blogger had it right in criticizing alternative therapies. There is just as much nonsense in them as in modern medicine, just that modern medicine kills infinitely more people, & covers it up better.

    My 4 kids have NEVER taken one medication in their lives, nor have they taken a supplement, homeopathy, or any other supposed remedy.

    If they are “disease vectors”, well they aren’t vectoring very well, because their health is the envy of other parents, especially those who raise their kids conventionally, with drugs at every turn of their lives. And please don’t tell me that they are a danger because they are “not protected” & therefore lowering herd immunity. I have never believed in the germ theory, let alone the superstition of herd immunity. Herd mentality is needed for that!

    And what about the editorial of 2002 in the BMJ: WHO OWNS THE FDA: THE PEOPLE OR THE DRUG COMANIES? Believe it or not? Does that favor good science?

    And lastly what about Marcia Engel, former editor of the NEJM for 20 years: ‘the medical profession has become the handmaiden of the drug industry’ from her book The Truth about the Drug Companies.But she must have crossed to the dark side, you will say, who would believe her?

    The majority is often wrong. And yes, there is one born every minute, & they end up believing that injecting polysorbate 80, aluminium & other toxic chemicals & adjuvants on day one (& thereafter) of a baby’s birth confers health through protection against disease. Voodoo at its worst, but then intelligence & stupidity are not incompatible.
    One day there will be an outbreak of common sense but it won’t come from the commercial healing modalities, from either side of the spectrum.

  93. #93 lilady
    January 14, 2012

    Chris…I got stuck in moderation too…commenting on the PSA test.

    Ren’s linked article at #7 is very interesting and sad. A 29 year old woman who had NEVER received the MMR immunizations died from a measles complication-Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome. She received every medical intervention available, yet died from the ARDS. I wonder how her parents feel, that the decision they made to not vaccinate her when she was a child, caused the premature death of their daughter?

  94. #94 questioner
    January 15, 2012

    There are several strains of the measles virus-This from the CDC
    http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/17/8/10-1994_article.htm

  95. #95 lilady
    January 15, 2012

    @ Questioner: The measles virus is a single serotype. I believe you are referring to measles genotypes. Testing for the genotype prevalence (there are at least 23 measles genotypes) during an outbreak or epidemic, assists epidemiologists to trace the likely source country or region where the unknown “index” case(s) became infected.

  96. #96 TBruce
    January 15, 2012

    Emily, if you insist on recommending Robert Mendelsohn’s books, you should read this. He was a medical nihilist (rather than a heretic) whose few good ideas were drowned out by unrelenting hostility and bitterness (as well as just plain nonsense).
    He died at a tragically young age, 62, I believe. I’m aware that hostility is harmful to one’s health. I will say no more.

  97. #97 Slutterella
    January 15, 2012

    How dumb do you really think people are?

    I dunno, how? You tell me, Orac bans anyone who’s too clever for him.

    There’s proof!

  98. #98 Emily
    January 15, 2012

    Dear Moderator,

    I still await my blog of 2 hours ago being published. What is the hold-up?

  99. #99 Slutterella
    January 15, 2012

    Dear Emily, the moderator wakes up after comment 97 has been deleted ;)

  100. #100 DLC
    January 15, 2012

    Hey, Emily, can I cite Lamarck on evolution, too ?

  101. #101 alison
    January 15, 2012

    Emily – since you’re concerned about the minute amount of aluminium in a dose of vaccine, you are presumably even more concerned about the quantities found in food, drink – & breast milk?

  102. #102 herr doktor bimler
    January 15, 2012

    Some of us are Awaiting Silent Tristero’s Empire, but you don’t catch us making a fuss about it.

  103. #103 Lawrence
    January 15, 2012

    That Emily denies germ theory is proof enough that she’s a complete nutter…..

  104. #104 snerd
    January 15, 2012

    I dunno, how? You tell me, Orac bans anyone who’s too clever for him.

    Really? Name one person who’s been banned, “too clever” or not.

    Bring it.

  105. #105 Slutterella
    January 15, 2012

    That I’ve noticed, Orac has banned at least half dozen separate people out of his fear that they could be a certain troll. I can’t link to posts that have been removed.

    He’s like the chef in that cartoon, Ratatouille, seeing the rat behind every dissenting voice…

  106. #106 snerd
    January 15, 2012

    slutterella: You seem to have an virulent case of projection. You probably should get that seen to; some kind of ointment or similar.

  107. #107 Scottynuke
    January 15, 2012

    Given all the “-ella” handles that have appeared in the past 48 hours or so, I suspect it’s more a virulent case of inability to spell one’s handle consistently. Does my mass spectrometer detect outlier levels of THC? :-)

  108. #108 snerd
    January 15, 2012

    Scotty: Yep, the Jacobometer is twitching and clicking and growling,

  109. #109 palindrom
    January 15, 2012

    quoth Emily: “I have never believed in the germ theory, let alone the superstition of herd immunity. ”

    Well, that’s that. As Churchill said, “Against such opinions it is vain to argue.”

  110. #110 Jaxma
    January 15, 2012

    Jacob’s Asperger’s. That’s all.

  111. #111 LW
    January 15, 2012

    Emily @92: “[In 1999] the Journal of the American Medical Association editorial …. stated that the fourth leading cause of death in the world, after CHD, cancer & strokes, was modern medical drugs, prescibed properly & according to professional standards of care. When factoring in medical mistakes, including improperly prescribed drugs, it becomes the third leading cause of death.It stated that each year over 100,000 patients are killed by such drugs, properly prescribed!”

    Emily needs to work on her reading comprehension.  Here is a report on the top ten causes of death in 2008. Note that medical drugs didn’t make the top ten in any grouping, particularly not the whole world. Note also the numbers of death in each category: the smallest of them, breast cancer in high income countries, is 0.17 million, or 170,000, which is considerably greater than 100,000. 

    Even someone who disbelieves the germ theory of disease and thinks herd immunity is a superstition ought to be able to do some simple computations like, there are more than six billion people in the world; at least one percent must die per year; that means at least 60,000,000 die per year; that means something that kills 100,000 per year cannot possibly be the fourth leading cause of death.

    In fact, Emily, the JAMA editorial, that you didn’t name, quote, or link to, must be referring to deaths in the United States which, as many of us are aware, is not the whole world.

  112. #112 lilady
    January 15, 2012

    “I have never believed in the germ theory, let alone the superstition of herd immunity. Herd mentality is needed for that!”

    I have never believed in the germ theory, (YES, WE COULD DISCERN THAT FROM YOUR POSTS) let alone the superstition of herd immunity. BASIC IGNORANCE AND DENIAL is needed for that!

    -FTFY Emily

    Emily, you are a “free rider” and by your ignorance and denial you have made your four rug rats little “germ” vectors. Make certain that you tell your wide group of friends who raise their children “conventionally” that your kids are vectors…especially the parents of newborns or parents of immune suppressed or immune compromised kids.

  113. #113 Krebiozen
    January 15, 2012

    Emily,

    Over 1.2 million dead through medical drugs since that editorial. Great science!

    Even assuming that figure is correct, could you tell me how many of those people would have been dead long before without medical treatment? How many of those people were seriously ill, very elderly or both and in a hospital? The drugs that cause the largest number of adverse events, including death, are also those that provide the greatest benefits. Anticoagulant drugs are a good example, they kill more people than any other prescription drugs, probably thousands of people every year in the USA alone, mainly due to their narrow window of therapeutic safety, but they also save hundreds of thousands of lives. You have to balance the benefits against the risks. Just looking at the risks and ignoring or denying the benefits, as you are doing, leads an intelligent person to foolish conclusions.

    modern medicine kills infinitely more people, & covers it up better

    How would you treat someone with a clotting disorder? You clearly wouldn’t use anticoagulants like warfarin or heparin as they kill “infinitely more people”. In the USA about 2 million people a year have a deep vein thrombosis, and 600,000 die from blood clots? Would you stop prescribing anticoagulants to these people? That’s 2-3 million people on warfarin alone you would be putting at a serious risk of a DVT or a pulmonary embolism. I think the best solution to this problem is to develop safer and more effective drugs, and that is exactly what is happening.

    I have never believed in the germ theory, let alone the superstition of herd immunity. Herd mentality is needed for that!

    I have never understood how anyone can deny germ theory or herd immunity. There is so much evidence of many different kinds for both that anyone denying them must be either ignorant of that evidence or delusional. I can’t see any other explanation.

  114. #114 Lawrence
    January 15, 2012

    By simple logic, one can deduce that once the major causes of death decline (plagues, world wars, famine, etc) there will be an increase of more chronic conditions – conditions that existed all the time, but more (many more) people died long before those chronic conditions could manifest themselves.

    i.e. – an individual may develop some form of cancer later in life, but dies of smallpox at the age of 10. Or, an individual may develop diabetes or dementia, but dies in a famine during his/her twenties.

    To say that modern medicine (antibiotics, vaccines, and basic improvements in treatments, drugs, surgeries, etc) and overall improvements in quality of life haven’t had an overwhelming impact on the decline in mortality rates across the board (followed up with denial of herd immunity and germ theory – even insane troll only denies one of those) just shows how in the dark you (Emily) are regarding the reality.

  115. #115 adelady
    January 15, 2012

    “I have never believed in the germ theory”

    Oh yuk. I just hope I never accidentally meet you without knowing who you are in advance. I really don’t want to shake hands with people who don’t wash after using the toilet facilities.

    Though I suppose I should recognise you because noone in your family bothers to cover their faces when they sneeze or cough.

    Yuukk!!

  116. #116 LW
    January 15, 2012

    I wonder how people who deny the germ theory of disease explain epidemics.

    How do they explain the Black Death that killed 1/3 of the population of Europe in the 1340s? It is amply documented — there is no question that it occurred and that most of the people who got sick had a specific suite of symptoms (there were about three specific suites of symptoms in all, but the bubonic form was by far the most common). The spread of the illness was suggestive of contagion even to people of the 1340s, long before the germ theory was imagined.

    How do they explain the deaths of Native Americans with symptoms similar to those of Europeans with named diseases — deaths which occurred only after Europeans came to these continents and which spread in a way suggestive of contagion?

    How do they explain the flu pandemic of 1918?

    Emily, you are cordially invited to help me out here.

  117. #117 Ren
    January 15, 2012

    I was once asked to help some kids in high school with their science fair project, and I chose germ theory. I chose it because I had found out that one of the town councilmen did not believe in germ theory and he was going to judge the fair. So we were going to embarrass him.

    We took two petri dishes, sterilized them one more time out of the bag with UV light, and left one open to the air and another one closed. The closed one grew nothing. The open one grew mold. We then took a third plate and grew beta-hemolytic strep. The student wrote up a paper about Pasteur and about Koch’s postulates. I was nearby when the judges came around.

    One section in the poster board was dedicated to germ theory denialism. It asked those who doubted to take a look a the plate with beta-hemolytic strep. If they truly did not believe in germ theory, in the fact that germs grow out of something and cause disease, then they were welcome to take a lick of the strep plate.

    There were no takers, and my student did not win. But, then again, he did. He learned that science opens eyes and makes minds think critically… And that bacteria do cause disease and do not come out of nowhere. He is now a medical technologist back in Texas, and I am very proud of him.

    So, Emily, why does food spoil once you open the can, and would you eat it?

  118. #118 Old Rockin' Dave
    January 15, 2012

    Of course, the elimination of rinderpest was also not due to vaccination, but due to “the improved social conditions” of East African cattle, which as we all know have been the beneficiaries of better sewage disposal, improved nutrition and the spread of early-calfhood education on the savanna.
    Oh, and chiropractic, lots of chiropractic.

  119. #119 Old Rockin' Dave
    January 15, 2012

    With regard to the PSA part of the discussion, I have to say I dissent from the current recommendations. At age 55, a routine PSA led to the discovery that I had prostate cancer, Gleason score 7, with disease right up to and on the verge of going through the prostate capsule. I was totally asymptomatic and there was no suspicious finding on digital rectal exam. After surgery, my 15-year risk of recurrence is 22%. I believe, and I think Orac will confirm, that had I waited until I had definite symptoms that couldn’t be waved off as due to something else, that I would have certainly had regional and most likely distant metastases requiring more, and more systemically disruptive, forms of therapy and my odds of cure and survival would have been seriously diminished, not to mention the impact on my quality of life.
    I strongly dissent from the new recommendations. Men, get your PSA checked early and often.

  120. #120 Denice Walter
    January 15, 2012

    @ Emily:

    I’m rather surprised that you didn’t quote figures about iatrogenic death from “Death by Medicine”. Actually, you sound like the material I survey since 2000: pharmaceutical products and the medical establishment are chastised by people who have ridiculously inapropriate educational backgrounds as well as an axe to grind because they are in *direct* competition for business. To make this simple, I’ll focus on one aspect alone- anti-vaccination( since the post is about AJW):

    Right now, some of the strongest advocacy against vaccination emanates from websites** who financially benefit from products that “eliminate” the need for vaccination ( well, at least they do in their perpetrators’ fevered imaginations); they sell supplements (vitamin D), herbs to “strengthen immunity”, as well as dietary regimes ( raw, vegan, what-have-you), juicing and other paraphenalia, and “informational services” ( books, lectures, consultations, films) that disseminate their ideas. Even if *you* don’t buy these products, thousands of others do: it’s big business.

    People have opposed vaccination since Jenner- there is something frightening about injecting a foreign substance into people- alt med anti-vaxxers capitalise on this fear while encouraging mistrust of science-based medicine, doctors, and pharmaceutical companies. Simultaneously, they are creating their own brands: placing themselves on a pedastal inviting worship in an act of grandiose solipcism-afterall, you need be pretty grandiose if you believe you can critique an entire area of research and an industrial sector. Thus their systematic demolition of consensus views is feeding gigantic egos as well as stuffing their pocketbooks. Other websites that have a similar agenda promote emotionally- reinforcing views as well as creating careers and making money off of advertisements ( AgeofAutism; NVIC; NJCVC; EBCALA, SafeMinds;…) And yes, AJW had potential business opportunities in mind. Several.

    Vaccination is an important *bete noire* for them: if their views are rejected then their entire *raison d’etre* will be questioned and their empire will dissolve into dust.

    ** NaturalNews; ProgressiveRadioNetwork; GaryNull; Mercola…

  121. #121 Sick sauce
    January 15, 2012

    Chemmomo, well isn’t that funny because because a while ago, Chris referred to some “vacc VS unvacc studies from around 1980 (when there were very few mandatory vaccines on the schedule. Just pointing out the inconsistency in your thinking here.

  122. #122 Sick sauce
    January 15, 2012

    Chemmomo (re. 65 and 84).

  123. #123 Krebiozen
    January 15, 2012

    Old Rockin’ Dave,
    Re PSA I’d say you were lucky, in a sense. For every man like you there are two or three whose elevated PSA is due to BPH, or whose prostate cancer would never have grown enough to cause them any problems. They get a biopsy and possibly treatment that they didn’t really need at all, not to mention the anxiety and cost. Screening tests and their risks and benefits are a fascinating area, I think. Their effects on individuals and on large numbers of people can be very different, if you see what I mean.

  124. #124 Krebiozen
    January 15, 2012

    Sick sauce,
    There is a big difference between using data from 1980, and coming to a conclusion based only on data available in 1980 without the benefit of data that have become available since.

  125. #125 Dangerous Bacon
    January 15, 2012

    Is Wakefield better characterized as a Great Fraud or as The Great Pretender?

    Oh-oh, yes I’m the great pretender
    Pretending that vaccines make you unwell
    My cash needs were such I pretended too much
    Exposed so my colleagues could tell

    (the original song lyrics actually fit nicely without any alterations)

  126. #126 Th1Th2
    January 15, 2012

    Of course, the elimination of rinderpest was also not due to vaccination,[...]

    So true.

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/08/haunted_by_memories_of_the_consequences.php#comment-5021601

  127. #127 Lawrence
    January 15, 2012

    I always get a kick out of insane troll advocating the slaughter of the infected & potentially infected as a means to control the spread of infections….

  128. #128 Narad
    January 15, 2012

    I still await my blog of 2 hours ago being published.

    That’s not what “blog” means, O Seer of Truth.

  129. #129 Denice Walter
    January 15, 2012

    @ Dangerous Bacon:

    Exactly- and another ripe fruit for plucking – in the song parody dept-
    it might almost work “as is” but oh wow, consider Mr Dylan’s refrain as:

    “You might think that it’s very rude
    but EVERYBODY must get sued…”

    Fortunately, I have “paperwork” or I might have to look up the real lyrics and have a go at it. I hereby absolve my claim.

  130. #130 OracIsAQuack
    January 15, 2012

    @ #15
    You are aware that it is illegal to impersonate someone over the internet, aren’t you?

    @ #17
    It would appear as if Mr Deer is unfamiliar with the concept of “Correlation does not equal causation.” I believe the very first Harry Potter book came out in the previous year; perhaps that is the cause for lower vaccine uptake? But, since Mr Deer agrees with your confirmation bias, then it must mean that, in this case, Correlation DOES equal causation.

    You cats and kittens are entirely too predictible. Really, pointing out your hypocrisies and bias has started to grow quite dull.

  131. #131 missmayinga
    January 15, 2012

    Man, there’s nothing like a germ theory denialist troll to brighten up your morning. I’m sorta wondering what she does think causes disease, though. Miasmas, maybe? Acid body environment? Vague, extremely generalized, “poor sanitation”? Not being as perfect and enlightened as her?

  132. #132 LAB
    January 15, 2012

    @ #61 Krebiozen and #69 trrll

    I was kidding. Chris wanted Emily to explain how sanitation improvements and open windows reduced measles between 1960 and 1970, when there was a huge drop in recorded cases. Emily is wrong to state that changes in lifestyle and cleanliness were the reason, because, for one thing, by 1960 these changes had long been in place. So why the dramatic drop in measles infections in the US between 1960 and 1970? I was joking about Leave it to Beaver. That was a popular TV show that ran in syndication all through the 1960s. June Cleaver is often held up as the symbol of the perfect wife who kept an immaculate house. Me saying “I watched Leave it to Beaver and I didn’t get measles” was a joke meant to illustrate that correlation does not equal causation. Sorry. Lame joke.

  133. #133 Narad
    January 15, 2012

    In fact, Emily, the JAMA editorial, that you didn’t name, quote, or link to, must be referring to deaths in the United States which, as many of us are aware, is not the whole world.

    In addition to what it was asserting, she also got wrong the year of publication and failed to note that it wasn’t an editorial. But, hey, whatever, citations are just a myth created to control people. It’s here.

  134. #134 Th1Th2
    January 15, 2012

    I always get a kick out of insane troll advocating the slaughter of the infected & potentially infected as a means to control the spread of infections….

    You’re an infection promoter. You don’t have to agree with Lancisi.

  135. #135 missmayinga
    January 15, 2012

    @129

    You are aware that it is illegal to impersonate someone over the internet, aren’t you?

    Oh shit you guys, watch out. He’s gonna call the internet police on us.

    It would appear as if Mr Deer is unfamiliar with the concept of “Correlation does not equal causation.” I believe the very first Harry Potter book came out in the previous year; perhaps that is the cause for lower vaccine uptake? But, since Mr Deer agrees with your confirmation bias, then it must mean that, in this case, Correlation DOES equal causation.

    So you’re saying that it is purely coincidence that, following the publication of a highly publicized paper about a supposed major side effect of the MMR vaccine, MMR vaccination rates went down.
    You’re either incredibly intellectually dishonest, or incredibly stupid.

  136. #136 Lawrence
    January 15, 2012

    If I recall, insane troll was in complete support of Lancisi’s methods, since they didn’t involve vaccinations – again, freaking hilarious!

  137. #137 Narad
    January 15, 2012

    You’re an infection promoter. You don’t have to agree with Lancisi.

    You really don’t understand how erbärmlich these attempts to do the same thing over and over with people who have already handily embarrassed you are, do you? Look, if you’ve only got one record, you could at least put on the other side once in a while. The whole “surfactants are always adjuvants” routine was a hoot. Try that.

  138. #138 OracIsAQuack
    January 15, 2012

    @missmayinga
    I rest my case…

  139. #139 Jarred C
    January 15, 2012

    If anyone is curious, I found the 1999 editorial article in JAMA that Emily was talking about (It’s actually from 2000):

    JAMA. 2000 Jul 26;284(4):483-5.
    Is US health really the best in the world?
    Starfield B.

  140. #140 Jarred C
    January 15, 2012

    Oops, looks like Narad posted the article before I did, and I didn’t see it. And yes, it’s a commentary, not an editorial in the July 2000 edition of JAMA.

  141. #141 stewartt1982
    January 15, 2012

    @OracIsAQuack:
    are there other plausible reasons for a sudden drop in MMR vaccinations after the publication of the paper? Correlation can be useful in pinning down the cause of something in the absence of other credible explanations.

  142. #142 Th1Th2
    January 15, 2012

    If I recall, insane troll was in complete support of Lancisi’s methods, since they didn’t involve vaccinations – again, freaking hilarious!

    First.

    1. Giovanni Maria Lancisi (26 October 1654-20 January 1720)
    2. First rinderpest vaccine, 1897 by Robert Koch

    Yeah you’re freaking hilarious!

    Second, your utter ignorance of Lancisi’s methods is highly amusing.

    Rinderpest and peste des petits ruminants: virus plagues of large and small ruminants, p.89
    By William P. Taylor

    Lancisi’s recommendations and their success were underpinned by two thrusts (see also Chapter 9):

    – zoo-sanitary measures, including stamping-out
    – strong legal enforcement of control measures

    Thus Lancisi’s technical recommendations included: slaughter to reduce spread, restricted movement of cattle, burial of whole animals in lime, and inspection of meat. Their implementation was enforced rigorously by the papal edicts by which Draconian penalties, including even hanging of guilty laymen and condemning of clergy to the galleys, were enforced. This led to the first effective control of rinderpest within a country, the state then known as Romagna. The same measures were successfully applied to control an epidemic of rinderpest that invaded England in 1714 with cattle shipped from Netherlands. Their rigorous application was recommended and advocated by Thomas Bates, surgeon to King George I of England (Bates, 1718). Bates, having been stationed as a naval surgeon in Sicily, was familiar with the edicts of Lancisi. In addition to following Lancisi’s recommendations Bates also recommended the segregation of animals into small groups. Similarly enforced measures were successful in containing Rinderspest in France and Germany through orders of the French Royal Council in 1714 and by Friedrich Wilhelm I in 1716, both of which included movement control measures. In other parts of Europe where these measures were not applied with the same rigour, rinderpest elimination was not possible.

    Bad news for infection promoters.

  143. #143 Th1Th2
    January 15, 2012

    If I recall, insane troll was in complete support of Lancisi’s methods, since they didn’t involve vaccinations – again, freaking hilarious!

    First.

    1. Giovanni Maria Lancisi (26 October 1654-20 January 1720)
    2. First rinderpest vaccine, 1897 by Robert Koch

    Yeah you’re freaking hilarious!

    Second, your utter ignorance of Lancisi’s methods is highly amusing.

    Rinderpest and peste des petits ruminants: virus plagues of large and small ruminants, p.89
    By William P. Taylor

    Lancisi’s recommendations and their success were underpinned by two thrusts (see also Chapter 9):

    – zoo-sanitary measures, including stamping-out
    – strong legal enforcement of control measures

    Thus Lancisi’s technical recommendations included: slaughter to reduce spread, restricted movement of cattle, burial of whole animals in lime, and inspection of meat. Their implementation was enforced rigorously by the papal edicts by which Draconian penalties, including even hanging of guilty laymen and condemning of clergy to the galleys, were enforced. This led to the first effective control of rinderpest within a country, the state then known as Romagna.

    Bad news for infection promoters indeed.

  144. #144 Krebiozen
    January 15, 2012

    LAB,

    I was kidding.

    It’s hard to tell when there are nuts of such a high caliber about!

    OIAQ,

    “Correlation does not equal causation.”

    Correlation alone is not sufficient to suggest causation. In this case there is a plausible mechanism, no plausible alternative explanation and several previous examples of vaccine scares leading to a fall in vaccine uptake and an increase in cases of the disease it prevents. That constitutes good evidence for causation. You’re not very good at this, are you?

  145. #145 Krebiozen
    January 15, 2012

    Thingy is actually advocating the slaughter of children to reduce spread of measles? Lost for words…

  146. #146 Chris
    January 15, 2012

    Emily:

    I have never believed in the germ theory, let alone the superstition of herd immunity. Herd mentality is needed for that!

    Then I am really interested in you answer to my question on why the numbers of people getting measles per year dropped so much in the USA in ten years. Do tell us.

    SS:

    Chemmomo, well isn’t that funny because because a while ago, Chris referred to some “vacc VS unvacc studies from around 1980

    Pray tell, which one was it?

    Krebiozen:

    There is a big difference between using data from 1980, and coming to a conclusion based only on data available in 1980 without the benefit of data that have become available since.

    If it is the measles vaccine study done in Africa then the point of that was to show what happens to the unvaccinated group (they got measles and some died). Because that was in the 1960s, I assume SS thought it was 1980s, since that is about the time the Belmont Report came out. That either shows how well SS can read, or his/her level of honesty.

    I see OracIsAQuack is just posting random insults without any supporting evidence. What is his explanation for the drop of vaccine uptake, and then measles becoming endemic in the UK just a couple of years later?

  147. #147 anna
    January 15, 2012

    @Emily-
    Follow your “intuition” and run from Orac and his intellectual lynch mob and
    witch hunters.
    They call Dr. Sears and Gordon quacks, also Dr. Oz and Dr. Blaylock who have more skill in surgery than ORAC.
    Their pyschological underpinnings are as fanatical as the “creationists” in their
    belief of vaccines as the “Holy Communion”.
    Knowing many people with few vaccinations and excellent health and all the reading I’ve done has convinced me that the current vaccine schedule for children has no real scientific support.

  148. #148 missmayinga
    January 15, 2012

    @146
    Yes, people on the internet being snarky in a way you don’t agree with is totally comparable to lynching. Bloody hell.

    Knowing many people with few vaccinations and excellent health and all the reading I’ve done has convinced me that the current vaccine schedule for children has no real scientific support.

    Okay, I’ll bite. What exactly is your problem with the current vaccine schedule? What are the specific parts of it that you feel have “no real scientific support”?

  149. #149 stewartt1982
    January 15, 2012

    @anna:
    knowing many people without vaccination is not proof that vaccines do not work. Many will have been infected and survived or not shown symptoms. You don’t know the people that have died, as they are dead. Has anyone claimed that without vaccination we would all get sick, or die? People lived without vaccination long ago,but that does not indicate vaccines do not work.

    Individual stories do not prove anything, you need a proper controlled study with ample statistics.

  150. #150 Th1Th2
    January 15, 2012

    Thingy is actually advocating the slaughter* of children to reduce spread of measles? Lost for words…

    *Only applies to the herd. So who’s saying children belong to the herd?

    Now wonder you’re on the top of the list.

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/08/haunted_by_memories_of_the_consequences.php#comment-5173160

    Continued p. 90-91…

    The control measures adopted in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries comprised:

    – Quarantine measures to segregate infected from uninfected herds
    – Import restrictions
    – Movement restrictions for animals and people
    – Slaughter of all diseased and in contact animals
    – Safe carcass disposal – especially deep burial in lime
    – Prohibition of the sale of meat and milk from sick animals
    – Compulsory notification of disease to the authorities
    – Enabling legislation, enforcement and heavy penalties
    for offenders.

    Oh look no vaccine!

  151. #151 LW
    January 15, 2012

    anna @146: “Dr. Oz and Dr. Blaylock who have more skill in surgery than ORAC.”

    Evidence needed.

  152. #152 Lawrence
    January 15, 2012

    It is refreshing (and again, terrifying) to see insane troll advocate for the slaughter of infected individuals or suspected individuals as part of its toolbox for removing disease from a population.

    Thanks for the heads-up on your thought process here – you’ve, once again, shown your true colors.

  153. #153 anna
    January 15, 2012

    @You are really showing your ignorance by asking that question. Do the research
    yourself. You will dispute anything I write anyway.

  154. #154 Agashem
    January 15, 2012

    No No Lawrence, you don’t get it. She believes you are the infection promoter and thus responsible for countless deaths, while in her mind, slaughtering innocents to save the rest is heroic and moral. Really, my head just imploded…..

  155. #155 stewartt1982
    January 15, 2012

    @anna:
    Isn’t that a bit lazy? you are trying to make a point but refuse t give relevant proof, just accusations.

    I think I see the problem, you would rather not have anything you say questioned, but only listened to and agreed to. Disputing something is healthy, not something bad … if something is found incorrect then try to understand what is wrong with your idea, modify it, or if you have to reject it. If something cannot be discussed or disputed is it really worth talking about?

  156. #156 Chris
    January 15, 2012

    anna:

    You will dispute anything I write anyway.

    Perhaps you could prevent that by being more clear, not plagiarizing other people, and actually providing some evidence.

    By the way, Dr. Blaylock has been retired for many years, and sells a supplement. So, yes, you really do have to provide actual evidence.

  157. #157 Th1Th2
    January 15, 2012

    It is refreshing (and again, terrifying) to see insane troll advocate for the slaughter of infected individuals animals or suspected individuals animals as part of its toolbox for removing disease from a population.

    Ahh the herd mentality.

    Continued p. 91

    These measures remain valid today and now form the core of the stamping-out policy for the control of highly contagious animal diseases, also referred to as transboundary animal diseases, i.e. those that are of significant economic trade and/or food security importance for a considerable number of countries; which can easily spread to other countries and reach epidemic proportions; and where control/management, including exclusion, requires cooperation between several countries (FAO, 1996).

  158. #158 Th1Th2
    January 15, 2012

    No No Lawrence, you don’t get it. She believes you are the infection promoter and thus responsible for countless deaths, while in her mind, slaughtering innocents to save the rest is heroic and moral. Really, my head just imploded…..

    FTFY. Thank you.

  159. #159 missmayinga
    January 15, 2012

    You are really showing your ignorance by asking that question. Do the research yourself. You will dispute anything I write anyway.

    I have done the research. I’ve gone to the CDC website. I’ve read the studies that they’ve based the vaccine schedule off of, and I’ve found their methods and conclusions satisfactory. You, clearly, did not. So again, I’m asking you, what parts of the vaccine schedule do you feel are unscientific?

  160. #160 anna
    January 15, 2012

    @missmayinga-
    I guess I missed them- can you please post the links?

  161. #161 Lawrence
    January 15, 2012

    Actually insane troll, you are the advocate of disease control without vaccinations – so by that thought process (if you actually have one), you are in favor of the methods used to originally attempt to control the spread of Rinderpest – so thank you again for admitting your whole-hearted support for the slaughter of innocent individuals, just because they might have come in contact with an infected host.

    It is refreshing (and again, terrifying) to see you come out and state such a black and white opinion on the matter.

  162. #162 Narad
    January 15, 2012

    @Emily-
    Follow your “intuition” and run from Orac and his intellectual lynch mob and
    witch hunters.

    Paging Minion Walter. NPD on line 2.

  163. #163 Chris
    January 15, 2012

    anna, you can start here:
    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/index.html

    Then you might want to go to the main CDC Vaccine page which is the link near the top that says “Vaccines Home.”

  164. #164 Krebiozen
    January 15, 2012

    Anna,

    Do the research yourself.

    You should take your own advice. If you do your research properly you will find that Blaylock, to pick just one example, gets his facts wrong, distorts the truth, and misinterprets the evidence. A year ago I spent a lot of time and trouble looking closely at Blaylock’s writings on the Simpsonwood meeting and ended up utterly disgusted at Blaylock’s ignorance or dishonesty, it was hard to decide which it was.

  165. #165 Th1Th2
    January 15, 2012

    Actually insane troll, you are the advocate of disease control without vaccinations

    Rinderpest had been eradicated more than once without vaccination. What are you complaining about?

    so by that thought process (if you actually have one), you are in favor of the methods used to originally attempt to control the spread of Rinderpest

    >

    Read #156 re: FAO, moron! (apology to the cattle)

    so thank you again for admitting your whole-hearted support for the slaughter of innocent individuals, infected animals, just because they might have come in contact with an infected host.

    I don’t know but did Lancisi slaughter innocent individuals?

    I say mooooo!!!

  166. #166 Dangerous Bacon
    January 15, 2012

    anna: “Orac and his intellectual lynch mob….
    Their pyschological underpinnings are as fanatical as the “creationists” in their belief of vaccines as the “Holy Communion”.

    anna, I am puzzled by your equating Orac and posters here with Catholics. Why do you hate Catholicism?

  167. #167 Emily
    January 15, 2012

    Germs exist & play an associative role in many illnesses, but they do not represent THE cause. They need a lot of help from us. If antibiotics are essential, how is it that my 4 kids, myself, my husband & many of my colleagues have NEVER taken antibibiotics, or any drugs, for over 20 years? Have my kids been sick? Of course, but they have been educated to know the power of their body’s self healing capacity, IF they provide the right conditions.

    And those conditions do not mean herbal pills, homeopathy, vitamins, antibiotics, anti-emetics, anti-pyrretics, tamiflu or any other voodoo!

    Let me bring you up to speed on a little secret! But please don’t say this aloud as it might cause hysteria amongst the medical sycophants: the human body is self-developing, self repairing & self-defending! Wow! My kids have been taught that. Does it mean they (we) reject modern medicine outright? How churlish that would be, & stupid. Modern medicine is awesome in some areas, but in most areas in engages, it is unnecessary & harmful.

    How does someone with RA, on methotrexate for 19 years, make a remarkable recovery when she comes OFF ALL medication, AND doesn’t take any “alternative” supplements, as advocated by the Mercolas, Sears, etc? How could that be? Are any of you really intersted in the truth? Do any of you good people suffer yourselves with chronic disease that modern medicine is virtually useless (read dangerous) in treating? What about family members? If you are in that position, ask me to explain!! I sell NOTHING, no pills, no concoctions, no remedies- THERE IS NO PROFIT!!! Hello, is anybody out there with an inquirng mind for the truth?

  168. #168 Narad
    January 15, 2012

    Rinderpest had been eradicated more than once without vaccination.

    Hey, is that a fresh word with a novel intrapsychic meaning?

  169. #169 Denice Walter
    January 15, 2012

    Intellectual lynch mob? Weren’t they a band in the UK c.1978?

    The relationship between the alt med proselytiser ( usually male) and his target audience (mostly female) can best be approached by metaphor: he is well-spoken and knows what makes her “tick”- he details how she has been sorely mis-used by her current beau ( read mainstream medicine) which is truly unjust because she is indeed a fine person far above average, intelligent, loving, and worthy. She deserves better- someone like him, a true genius also unfairly punished by heartless corruption. It’s a match made in heaven!

    His flattery and attentions are designed to convince her that what benefits *him* is really in her best interest, not his. In this dance of financial and ideological seduction she is controlled although she doesn’t realise it- symbiotically, both egos getfed- he adds another to his stable while she is “choosen” by the glorious one himself.

  170. #170 Stuartg
    January 15, 2012

    Krebiozen @122 :

    You forgot to include the not insignificant morbidity and mortality associated with investigation of “elevated” PSAs that are later found to be normal for that individual!

  171. #171 Thomas
    January 15, 2012

    “You are really showing your ignorance by asking that question. Do the research
    yourself. You will dispute anything I write anyway.”

    Asking a question is requesting that one’s ignorance be reduced. Refusing to answer a question is an obvious attempt to hide one’s ignorance. Hope that helps.

  172. #172 Denice Walter
    January 15, 2012

    Oops… pardon my premature hit…

    So here goes:
    “symbiotically, both egos get fed- he adds another to his stable while she is chosen by the glorious one himself”.

    I am not speaking literally -I’m not saying that these fellows “get it on” with their clients- it’s an *analogy* -and apropo- because there *is* a romance going on. Seducers- or salesmen- with good verbal skills and person perception make use of their own studied skills at charming people- whether it’s by looks, speech, or feigned empathy- for their own advantage. And *both* parties are getting something out of it or else it wouldn’t last very long. ( Also it is not 100% male to 100% female)

    Many people have these skills but choose *not* to use them because they know how really unfair their advantage is.

  173. #173 anna
    January 15, 2012

    @Denice-
    You really are enamored with your verbal abilities. I actually adored my SBM
    orthopedist when I tore my rotator cuff. Maybe surgeons should just stick to doing what they were qualifed to do as SBM doctors. I am very open-minded- ie usually correlated with “creative thinkers”.
    I think I have enough psych savy to recognonize “transference” reactions.
    No- people turn to alt med because they get no answers from SBM- they really just
    might want to feel better.
    Of course there are rip-off artists in alt med-like Medicare and Medicaid abuses don’t exist?

  174. #174 Old Rockin' Dave
    January 15, 2012

    @Thingy, #149:
    You obviously don’t know the difference between Italy and East Africa. In the last epidemic areas, herding is synonymous with subsistence; there are no truly realistic alternatives. Lancisi’s measures did not go over very well in most of Europe, where conditions were not as stark; I seriously doubt they could ever have flown in Somalia, Sudan or northern Kenya in our era, even assuming there were effective central governments with the resources and the will to enforce them.
    @krebiozen, #122: Hoping not to sound too sarcastic,I am sure that if I were undergoing debulking surgery, multiple sessions of irradiation to the pelvic region,and skeletal metastases, and lifelong androgen-blocking therapy, or perhaps dying of untreatable metastatic disease, I would be comforted by the thought that I was contributing to the fiscal health of society.
    If you are a man past your mid-40s, get your PSA done.

  175. #175 anna
    January 15, 2012

    @Denice-
    Are you sure you are not “projecting”?
    That might be your “modus operandi”.

  176. #176 LW
    January 15, 2012

    Emily @167: “If antibiotics are essential…”

    Who ever said they were? Thousands of generations of human beings were born and lived to adulthood without antibiotics.

    Of course, in each of those generations there were people who got infections that antibiotics could have cured, but antibiotics didn’t exist so they died.

    It’s great that you and your family haven’t needed antibiotics. Let’s hope you remain that fortunate. But for those like me who haven’t been so fortunate, it’s good that antibiotics exist whether you like them or not.

  177. #177 Science Mom
    January 15, 2012

    You really are enamored with your verbal abilities.

    I’m enamoured with Denice’s verbal abilities, so what?

    I actually adored my SBM orthopedist when I tore my rotator cuff.

    Oh and why is that? Is it because you were aware that you were out of your depth about how to repair your own rotator cuff? You see that’s the problem with you self-proclaimed “open-minded” types, your brains fall out while you are frantically acquiring your Google U degrees with alt-med morons as instructors so you think you can DIY medicine.

    Maybe surgeons should just stick to doing what they were qualifed to do as SBM doctors.

    Yes they should so you mind telling me why you invoked Dr. Oz as some kind of authority? Or Dr. Sears and Gordon since they haven’t done a single bit of research? Or Blaylock a retired surgeon who shills supplements? By the way, our host is a PhD/MD who conducts research as well as surgery and practises what he preaches, i.e. science-based medicine. How do your “experts” measure up in this regard?

    I am very open-minded- ie usually correlated with “creative thinkers”. I think I have enough psych savy to recognonize “transference” reactions.

    Of course you are “open-minded”, you’d have to have had your brains flop out to believe the swill you believe and in turn are peddling. I don’t think you really know what “open-minded” is or you wouldn’t be embarrassing yourself by proclaiming to be. I would also suggest you learn what confirmation bias is and repetition confirmation because I don’t think you are particularly self-aware as far as those go.

    No- people turn to alt med because they get no answers from SBM- they really just might want to feel better.

    And how does one achieve that?

    Of course there are rip-off artists in alt med-like Medicare and Medicaid abuses don’t exist?

    A silly Tu quoque argument. There is oversight in medicine so that scammers do get caught and punished. There is little to no oversight for your altie snake-oil salesmen and can literally get away with murder, in large part because people like you who get sucked into their world are too embarrassed to do anything about them when you realise you’ve been had; you just slink away.

  178. #178 Chemmomo
    January 15, 2012

    Sicksauce @120 and 121: Apparently, you did notice that my handle is Chemmomo. Therefore, I’m not Chris. Exactly what is inconsistent here?

  179. #179 Krebiozen
    January 15, 2012

    Stuartg,

    You forgot to include the not insignificant morbidity and mortality associated with investigation of “elevated” PSAs that are later found to be normal for that individual!

    True. You remind me of an old colleague of mine who years ago had his creatine kinase level measured to establish a reference range – lab staff are often used for this. His CK was markedly elevated and he endured a series of investigations, including a muscle biopsy, to try to find the cause. In the end it was realized that people of African origin, he is Nigerian, simply have higher CK levels than Caucasians or Asians, and his CK was perfectly normal.

  180. #180 Chemmomo
    January 15, 2012

    Emily, sweetie, @92

    then let’s travel to 1999

    I said welcome to the 21st century. You’re still off by one (or two, depending on who’s counting) year(s).

    I have never believed in the germ theory, let alone the superstition of herd immunity.

    Please read this article http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/07/21/peds.2010-3385.full.pdf
    and try to figure out why there were no deaths from chicken pox in infants who were too young to have received their own vaccines.

    Finally,

    The majority is often wrong. And yes, there is one born every minute

    Yeah, Emily, you’re right about that. What you fail to realize is that it’s you. I can’t help but feel sorry for you seeing conspiracies everywhere and not having enough of an open mind to understand science.

    Finally, Emily, you complain

    Dear Moderator,
    I still await my blog of 2 hours ago being published. What is the hold-up?

    at 3:04 am! I assume you’re on the west coast of the US. Did it occur to you that the moderator might not be?

  181. #181 Krebiozen
    January 15, 2012

    Old Rockin’ Dave,

    I am sure that if I were undergoing debulking surgery, multiple sessions of irradiation to the pelvic region,and skeletal metastases, and lifelong androgen-blocking therapy, or perhaps dying of untreatable metastatic disease, I would be comforted by the thought that I was contributing to the fiscal health of society.

    It’s not just fiscal health. What about the many men who have unnecessary investigations and treatment, both of which carry risks, as a result of an elevated PSA? It may be that routine screening with PSA actually increases morbidity and mortality overall. For you, getting a PSA was undoubtedly the right thing and may have saved your life, for many other men it makes things worse.
    http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/uspstf12/prostate/prostateart.htm

  182. #182 anna
    January 15, 2012

    @Science Mom-
    You are very young and don’t have any experience outside of your narrow
    world.
    Rather histrionic claim about snake oil salesmen getting away with murder-
    Please cite other than Dr Burz.
    What swill do I believe in or are you a mind reader too?
    Sorry, I will never be had by SBM or Alt Med.
    Oops! I was! believed everything was gospel in SBM and had a totally unnecessary
    operation.
    Age does bring wisdom some times.

  183. #183 anna
    January 15, 2012

    @Science Mom-
    What about breast implants, face lifts, botox, etc. of course these are done for purely
    altruistic reasons.

  184. #184 Lawrence
    January 15, 2012

    @anna – before the AMA & the institution of medical standards, “snake oil” salesmen were an every day occurance – if you knew your history, you’d know that.

  185. #185 Chris
    January 15, 2012

    Lawrence:

    if you knew your history, you’d know that.

    She is having trouble with forming with sentence structure, forming an argument, using actual evidence, making herself clear, and worse as told Science Mom that she is naive and to not cite someone never mentioned by Science Mom: why should we assume she knows any history?

    I think we are dealing with a runner up to Thingy.

  186. #186 Denice Walter
    January 15, 2012

    @ Science Mom:

    I appreciate your kind words! ( -btw- you should hear me with 2 drinks!)

    I am trying to utilise my skills to expose nonsense that masquerades as medicine. I have witnessed horrible examples of those who are ill consulting with a charlatan whose admonitions include casting off SB therapies for cancer, HIV/AIDS, SMI, and other manageable conditions in order to sell supplements and media while mis-representing prevarication as education.

    Because of my own good fortune- a kick -ss international elitist education- I try to provide a few short-cuts. Life can be unfair and people mis-use others. It’s my chosen lot to illustrate how it’s done in all the gory details.

  187. #187 anna
    January 15, 2012

    @Denice-
    I am glad that I have not “witnessed horrible examples of those who are ill consulting
    with a charlatan” etc. I commend you on your “utilising” your skill to educate those
    who do so.

  188. #188 Hinterlander
    January 15, 2012

    @ Anna

    Yes you should be glad you didn’t witness how much my cancer-ridden Grandfather suffered in his last days. Once he received his diagnosis of prostate cancer he opted to be treated by my homeopath aunt, to his demise. I saw him for the last time the day before he died, at my aunt’s house. He was in agony (despite the homeopathic remedies he was on – strange that), couldn’t speak and couldn’t drink either. All he could do was gesture at ice cubes to suck on. His untimely death most likely could have been prevented with early conventional medical treatment. His untimely death also sowed the first seeds of doubt in my then very altie/credulous mind (or as you would say “open mind”).

  189. #189 anna
    January 15, 2012

    @Chris-
    I quote you @184-“she is having trouble with forming with sentence structure”
    Hmm…..
    I quote “Science Mom@177 “There is little to no oversight for your altie snake-oil salesmen and can literally get away with murder, in large part because people like you who get sucked into their world are too embarrassed to do anything about them when you realise you’ve been had; you just slink away.”
    Asked for citations- Who is getting away with murder?
    What does this have to do with history?
    People like me? Rather arrogant statement.

  190. #190 Krebiozen
    January 15, 2012

    Emily,
    One simple question. Before Europeans arrived in the New World, Native Americans lived a natural existence and ate nothing but healthy unprocessed foods, breathed clean air and drank unpolluted water. Why did they succumb to infectious diseases like measles and smallpox in such large numbers when they came into contact with Europeans?

  191. #191 Chris
    January 15, 2012

    anna, is English your second language?

  192. #192 Science Mom
    January 15, 2012

    You are very young and don’t have any experience outside of your narrow
    world.

    Except that I do; my degrees and professional experience (in infectious diseases) weren’t acquired from Google and talk-show doctors.

    Rather histrionic claim about snake oil salesmen getting away with murder-
    Please cite other than Dr Burz.

    I don’t know what was so histrionic about it, just a mere observation. It shouldn’t make you so uncomfortable, or should it? Here are just a few well-known example of woo killing people and the practitioners getting away with it, including your own Dr. Jay:
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-impending-end-of-a-horrifying-testimonial-for-an-alternative-medicine-breast-cancer-cure/
    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2009/05/hbot-fire-certifications-in-the-clinic/
    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2007/07/dan-doctor-roy-kerry-chelation-charges/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Maggiore

    What swill do I believe in or are you a mind reader too?

    Don’t need to read your mind; you made the mistake of typing out your idiotic beliefs and proclamation of being so “open-minded”.

    Sorry, I will never be had by SBM or Alt Med.
    Oops! I was! believed everything was gospel in SBM and had a totally unnecessary
    operation.

    Except for when you do need a real physician. Yea, you aren’t that unique there you know.

    Age does bring wisdom some times.

    And it also brings dementia; anna I’m looking at you.

    What about breast implants, face lifts, botox, etc. of course these are done for purely
    altruistic reasons.

    Can you please stick to you previous claims before moving on to exposing even more of your stupidity? But since you raise the point. Do you know what medical uses are for botox? If you had a mastectomy, would you be thankful for re-constructive surgery? Disfigured in an auto accident? Would you eschew rhinoplasty and other re-constructive surgery? Just because there is a purely cosmetic market for these things, doesn’t mean that they aren’t valuable modalities.

  193. #193 anna
    January 15, 2012

    @Hinterlander– but I watched my friend die from lung cancer after 5 horrible
    years on and off chemo with the end stage being a colostomy from the ravages of chemo.
    Cancer is horrid.

  194. #194 anna
    January 15, 2012

    @Chris-Yes.

  195. #195 Science Mom
    January 15, 2012

    I appreciate your kind words! ( -btw- you should hear me with 2 drinks!)

    You are an acquired taste but once done, then it’s easy to see the experience, thoughtfulness and wit in your posts. I would definitely like to hear you with two drinks!

  196. #196 Lawrence
    January 15, 2012

    Yes anna – it is horrible, but due to dedicated researchers like the author of this blog, new and more effective treatments are being made available all the time.

    Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the various alt-woo peddlers out there, who push nothing more than false hope.

  197. #197 Hinterlander
    January 15, 2012

    Anna – I’m sorry to read about your friend. However, you miss my point. I was replying to your sarcastic comment #186 with “a horrible example of someone who was ill consulting with a charlatan”. Cancer is indeed horrid but in many cases treatable or curable if caught early and treated conventionally. As Lawrence states above cancer treatments are improving, moving ahead all the time, unlike alt “medicine” which simply spins round in circles spouting the same cr*p.

  198. #198 Ren
    January 15, 2012

    Let me bring you up to speed on a little secret! But please don’t say this aloud as it might cause hysteria amongst the medical sycophants: the human body is self-developing, self repairing & self-defending!

    Ah, yes. Smoke and mirrors. Say a truism and then expect the fools to follow you.

    Yes, the human body is self-developing. Yes, the human body is self-repairing. And, yes, the human body is self-defending.

    In most cases. Then something like smallpox or cancer or a bullet shows up, writes down that “little secret” on a napkin, rolls it up, and shoves it up your ass.

    Reuben wrote a blog post about how anti-vaxers (and Thingy) use the whole “polio vaccines cause polio” truism to scare you, if you’re dumb enough to believe them… http://bit.ly/zqIcWV

  199. #199 Prometheus
    January 15, 2012

    By my count, Andy Wakefield has been on three “top science fraud” lists in the past month: Medscape, CNN and now Time. He must be so proud of his achievements!

    It’s getting harder and harder for the “true believers” to keep their faith in Wakefield, which I suspect is why he’s resorted to filing a lawsuit that hasn’t got a snowball’s chance in Hell (or Texas, for that matter). He needs to rally the faithful and convince them that he’s not irrelevant.

    Unfortunately, even the mass media have decided that he is irrelevant – or, even worse, ridiculous. I predict that Wakefield will be getting more and more of his “media attention” on low-wattage late-night conspiracy-theory AM radio station talk shows in the coming years.

    Prometheus

  200. #200 Old Rockin' Dave
    January 15, 2012

    @krebiozen, #181:
    The problem with statistical approaches is that a statistic is not a person.
    For me, the attack rate was 100%. The prevalence was 100%. If I had died from prostate cancer the mortality rate would have been 100%. My ongoing risk of death from recurrence is only 1%, but it is not just 1% of me, a couple of toes maybe, that would die. I am the only me that I will ever have, and my wife, kids, and I all firmly believe that it is worth a little extra expense on the part of the health insurance industry to keep me, and you too, alive and well.

  201. #201 anna
    January 15, 2012

    Who was that “nut” who discovered the benzene ring?

  202. #202 Narad
    January 15, 2012

    Who was that “nut” who discovered the benzene ring?

    You’re devolving into non sequiturs? Do tell when Kekulé was considered to be a “nut.”

  203. #203 anna
    January 15, 2012

    @narad-
    You are absolutely right-
    Sorry-thinking about the snake image- Freudian perhaps.

  204. #204 Travis
    January 15, 2012

    Narad,I guess I am not the only person confused by that comment. I thought perhaps I had missed something when reading through the previous comments but I did not see anything that seemed to make this comment relevant.

    Nothing I have read about Kekulé would suggest to me that anyone considered him a nut during his life or after. I would love to know why this was brought up.

  205. #205 Travis
    January 15, 2012

    Ahh, I see a post was made between our comments.

  206. #206 Denice Walter
    January 15, 2012

    … Ah, the often-cited dream vision of Urobouros- the tail-eating serpent- and the structure of the benzene ring ( Jung loved it!) vs more realistic cognitive psych explanation of how long-term study+ a restful incubation period= discovery…not magic at all. I can’t do any more today.

  207. #207 anna
    January 15, 2012

    @Denice-
    Well put-English is my second language.

  208. #208 anna
    January 15, 2012

    Thank you Orac for allowing dissenting “opinions” on your blog esp mine.

  209. #209 Jaxma
    January 16, 2012

    Orac thank you for allowing all opinions bar those that align with Jacob’s ;)

  210. #210 Chemmomo
    January 16, 2012

    Hey anna,
    Not much you’ve posted today (on this or any other thread) has made much sense. And now you’re willing to wave the white flag of “English is my second language.” Well, guess what? Mine too.

    Then you throw out Kekule, and benzene rings.

    Oh wait, if English is my second language, then chemistry is my third. Or maybe higher, if we count my high school French, and Latin.

    So, since you think you know all about Kekule, tell me: who is Erich Huckel? And I’ll add a hint: what does he have to do with benzene rings?

  211. #211 Militant Agnostic
    January 16, 2012

    Ren

    Yes, the human body is self-developing. Yes, the human body is self-repairing. And, yes, the human body is self-defending.

    And of course each of these can go awry and kill us.

  212. #212 Militant Agnostic
    January 16, 2012

    Krebiozen

    One simple question. Before Europeans arrived in the New World, Native Americans lived a natural existence and ate nothing but healthy unprocessed foods, breathed clean air and drank unpolluted water. Why did they succumb to infectious diseases like measles and smallpox in such large numbers when they came into contact with Europeans?

    In fact, at least in the northeast, the life expectancy of pre-contact Native Americans was a couple of years longer than that of Europeans.

    I wonder if part of Emily raising her children as naturaly as possible includes teaching them how to hunt with neolithic weapons, butcher their kill or carrion and gather edible plants in the woods. After all, agriculture is so unnatural.

  213. #213 T-reg
    January 16, 2012

    @Emily

    Ren answered your naive statement in quite an amusing manner. :)

    I’d like to take a slightly different approach:

    Yes, the human body can heal itself. In fact, many of the specific mechanisms involved are well known to SBM and research is on to learn more about other mechanisms.

    Quite clearly you are not aware of how SBM works. When the mechanism for self-repair/defence has failed, medical intervention is required to either boost it or supplement it (e.g antibiotics).

    In many cases, repair may no longer be possible. Here again, medical intervention is required (hint: organ transplants).

    Sometimes, an over zealous defence mechanism itself can lead to diseases (auto-immunity) which has to be controlled.

    Similarly, most diseases occur precisely because of inadequacy of the body to deal with the derangement in one or many systems or specific locations in the body.

    The human body is not perfect and its capacity for self healing/repair/defence can only go so far. When it has reached its limitations, intervention is required.

    Ofcourse, even these interventions are not perfect, but practitioners of SBM actually put in the effort to make them as near perfect as possible.

    You and your family are fortunate that you have so far been free of serious ailments. If you are free from ailments, you do not need any sort of intervention.

    But everyone is not so fortunate and it is also not necessary that you will remain fortunate forever (not that I wish ill-fortune on you or your family). Diseases occur despite doing your best to maintain optimum health.

    What do you believe a person should do when they fall ill despite taking all measures to maintain optimum health? Should they follow unproven, implausible claims for treatment where risks and benefits are largely unknown; or should they follow well-researched, reasonably well-understood (or atleast, proven) treatment modalities?

    This discussion has specifically turned to the role of vaccines in the prevention of infectious diseases. However, it is folly to assume that SBM advocates against or does not advocate a healthy diet, exercise, good sleep etc for maintenence of optimum health.

    SBM very much emphasizes the importance of these factors. However, for an effective disease prevention strategy, these are not enough. Some specific prevention strategies, such as vaccination, have to be included. As has been pointed above, effective prevention of a disease such as measles is not possible without effective immunization.

    A lot of research has been done on this which the regulars always generously link to. If you really are open minded, as you claim to be, perhaps you should take a look at it and see for yourself. I’m afraid, you will have to invest some time and effort, though. A cursory glance is not enough.

  214. #214 T-reg
    January 16, 2012

    @Militant Agnostic:
    Even neolithic weapons are so unnatural. The natural way is to literally fight “tooth and nail” with the prey.

  215. #215 Emily
    January 16, 2012

    To Ren & Krebiozen,Yes, the human body is self-developing. Yes, the human body is self-repairing. And, yes, the human body is self-defending.

    And of course each of these can go awry and kill us.

    What does that mean? What are you talking about here?

    And secondly, the Native American Indians did not die a day after meeting whites. It was after their lifestyles had been compromised that they fell ill.

    If germs cause disease why are not my 4 kids sick with flu & other illnesses that their friends have? They associate with them all the time? And my kids are not “protected” by medicine’s voodoo vaccines. Why do so many people who get the flu every year (with or without fluvax), once they change their diets & lifestyles, NEVER get the flu again? I suppose the virus takes pity on them & leaves them alone as a reward for long service?

    Maggots don’t cause the carcass & flies don’t cause the garbage & germs don’t cause the disease, they FOLLOW it.

    And by the way, the human body has about 100 trillion cells & 10 times as many microorganisms ( viruses, bacteria etc) residing in/on it. God help us if germs are the cause of disease.We would never be well.

  216. #216 Emily
    January 16, 2012

    The only real science in modern medicine are the basic sciences- anatomy, physiology etc. The day to day practice of MOST of modern medicine is what I disagree with. why would I disagree with that? I was brought up to believe in medical magic. I make no money from selling ” remedies”. Then why? Simply put, because I have seen literally thousands of cases of people who have been suffering from A) their disease & b) their medical treatment of their disease.

    In so many of these cases, all that was needed was for the patient to be educated to remove the causes. There are literally overwhelming numbers of poor wrethces suffering needlessly, dosed to their eyeballs on suppressive medication, being led by clueless physicians who have not the slightest idea of the biological law of cause & effect.But you really can’t blame them- they are products of their training, largely funded by GSK, Merck etc & they honestly have not been well trained in helping people potentiate their innate healing powrers (WOOO I hear the chorus!)
    There was a salutary silence when I asked if anyone was interested in how a patient on methotrexate for 19 years can go off the drug, take NOTHING meically or alternatively, & RECOVER? Or a peatient with MS getting off interferon injections after 6 years (every second day, self-administered) to almost fully recover without ANY therapy.

    And by the way, I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am not opposed medicine per se. I am not sitting on one side condemming the other. I sit on the outside condemming both, because most of modern medicine (save for emergency treatments) & most alternative therapies are unscientific & unnecessary, the former being often deadly (NEJM 2000, exact edition previously cited).

  217. #217 Emily
    January 16, 2012

    To LW Post 176: I am sorry you needed antibiotics. Would you mind telling us what you had that needed antibiotics? I would be very interested to find out.

  218. #218 Julian Frost
    January 16, 2012

    @Emily:

    Native American Indians did not die a day after meeting whites. It was after their lifestyles had been compromised that they fell ill.

    Compromised how? I’ll think you’ll find that the outbreaks started long before the Native Americans were “westernised”.

    Why do so many people who get the flu every year (with or without fluvax), once they change their diets & lifestyles, NEVER get the flu again?

    Anecdotes are not evidence. I get vaxxed against flu, and one year when I wasn’t, I had the worst bout of flu I’ve ever had.

    Maggots don’t cause the carcass & flies don’t cause the garbage & germs don’t cause the disease, they FOLLOW it.

    Ah yes, the old “terrain of the body” argument. Please explain to me why, in 1650, when everyone ate organic etc, your odds of living to 18 were only 1 in 3, and why your odds are so much better today.

    the human body has about 100 trillion cells & 10 times as many microorganisms ( viruses, bacteria etc) residing in/on it. God help us if germs are the cause of disease.We would never be well.

    There are these thing called “skin”, “adenoids” and “tonsils” that stop those germs getting into where they can do harm (most of the time). If they get through (e.g. through a cut in the skin), we have this thing called an “immune system” that is supposed to kill them before they harm us.

    Yes, the human body is self-developing. Yes, the human body is self-repairing. And, yes, the human body is self-defending.

    And of course each of these can go awry and kill us.

    What does that mean? What are you talking about here?

    Ever hear of autoimmune diseases like Lupus? Toni Braxton had to be taken to hospital a few days ago because she has Lupus. As for self-developing and self-repairing going wrong, ever hear of cancer?
    I don’t think I’ll convince you that you’re spouting garbage, given that you deny Germ Theory, but at least the Lurkers will know you are.

  219. #219 Matthew Cline
    January 16, 2012

    @Emily:

    But you really can’t blame them- they are products of their training, largely funded by GSK, Merck etc & they honestly have not been well trained in helping people potentiate their innate healing powrers (WOOO I hear the chorus!)

    I’m curious, then, as to who mis-trained the people who lead to the spread of smallpox vaccine way back when Jenner introduced it, and to the spread of the germ theory back when Pasteur came up with it, given since I don’t think that anything like Big Pharma existed back then.

  220. #220 Emily
    January 16, 2012

    @ Julian Frost re 217

    Compromised how? I’ll think you’ll find that the outbreaks started long before the Native Americans were “westernised”.

    The illnesses commenced well after contact, you’ll find. At least it was with the Australian Aborigines & New Zealand Maoris & Fijians, I haven’t been up to speed on the Native Americans, but I’m sure it would be the same.

    Ah yes, the old “terrain of the body” argument. Please explain to me why, in 1650, when everyone ate organic etc, your odds of living to 18 were only 1 in 3, and why your odds are so much better today.

    Please do your homework. Ate organic? Their diets were far from ideal, & their lifestyles were hazardous. The average age was so low because of high rates of infant mortalty. The along came Dr Semmeleiss in 1860 who helped change all that. The improvement in infant mortality was the reason we are living longer, on average, this is well accepted, & yes, medicine does play a role there.

    There are these thing called “skin”, “adenoids” and “tonsils” that stop those germs getting into where they can do harm (most of the time). If they get through (e.g. through a cut in the skin), we have this thing called an “immune system” that is supposed to kill them before they harm us.

    Yes, the human body is self-developing. Yes, the human body is self-repairing. And, yes, the human body is self-defending.

    I am glad you agree with these basic biological axioms.

    And of course each of these can go awry and kill us.

    What does that mean? What are you talking about here?
    Ever hear of autoimmune diseases like Lupus? Toni Braxton had to be taken to hospital a few days ago because she has Lupus. As for self-developing and self-repairing going wrong, ever hear of cancer?
    I don’t think I’ll convince you that you’re spouting garbage, given that you deny Germ Theory, but at least the Lurkers will know you are

    Please read the earlier posts where I wrote about the reasons people can recover from chronic disease (incl auto-immune disease) without medical or alternative treatments. Lupus is hopelessly treated medically, yet quite easily & successfully recovered from through the application of natural hygiene principles.

    Cancer is a different story, although the medical treatment outcome of most cancers ( especially the main ones like bowel, breast, prostate, lung,etc) is appalling. President Nixon in 1971 declared “war on cancer” & if he saw the abysmal results of the “war”, he would turn in his grave. Even Professor Linus Pauling , dual Nobel Laureate, said “the cancer establishment is largely a fraud” & never have truer words been spoken.

    Having said that, the mumbo jumbo of much alternative therapies in dealing with cancer is almost as bad.

    Cancer is a special case & requires much more input, which I am unable to do at this time.

    At least you do know that the body is self-regulating- well done Julian.

  221. #221 LW
    January 16, 2012

    Emily @215: As a healthy active eight-year-old, I developed a severe infection in my hip. The infectious organism must have entered through some unnoticed scratch like all the others an active eight-year-old acquires. The infection quickly became so severe that I could not walk and my fever was so high that I was delirious.

    Such infections just happen. They always have, in all of human history. In the good old days before antibiotics, I would have died. Thanks to antibiotics, I survived with just a slight limp.

  222. #222 LW
    January 16, 2012

    Emily, now that I’ve answered your question, please allow me to ask one of my own. You said, “I have seen literally thousands of cases of people who have been suffering…”. What is it you do that enables you to see thousands of such people?

  223. #223 Birger Johansson
    January 16, 2012

    (OT) Another case of fraud.
    Maybe you have alredy discissed this.
    “Red wine researcher accused of falsifying data” http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-01-red-wine-accused-falsifying.html

  224. #224 W. Kevin Vicklund
    January 16, 2012

    There was a salutary silence when I asked if anyone was interested in how a patient on methotrexate for 19 years can go off the drug, take NOTHING meically or alternatively, & RECOVER?

    First of all, anecdote. Secondly, you haven’t given us sufficient data to evaluate what may have happened. But since you insist, I’ll engage in rank speculation. I speculate that what happened is that, since methotrexate is known for significantly increasing the odds of a durable remission in RA patients, the RA went into remission for an extended length of time and the remaining symptoms were merely side effects of the drug. Take away the drug, take away the side effects.

    Or a peatient with MS getting off interferon injections after 6 years (every second day, self-administered) to almost fully recover without ANY therapy.

    Let me guess. The sub-type of MS the patient had was relapsing-remitting, right? The remissions in this sub-type can last for years, during which the patient only suffers from the permanent damage inflicted during previous flare-ups (which often means almost full recovery).

  225. #225 Dianne
    January 16, 2012

    And secondly, the Native American Indians did not die a day after meeting whites. It was after their lifestyles had been compromised that they fell ill.

    Um, no. There was an epidemic among the Arawak after their first contact with Columbus, even though he only stopped there briefly, kidnapped a few people, and left. No major lifestyle changes.

    Also just to note, the pre-Columbian lifestyle was in no way “pure”. Many Amerind peoples understood how to smoke meat, for example, few had what we would consider a truly balanced diet, and some, such as the Incas, had as complex and decadent a civilization as any spawned in Europe. What they didn’t have was small pox-until the Europeans showed up with it.

  226. #226 T-reg
    January 16, 2012

    @Emily:

    The only real science in modern medicine are the basic sciences- anatomy, physiology etc. The day to day practice of MOST of modern medicine is what I disagree with.

    and

    being led by clueless physicians who have not the slightest idea of the biological law of cause & effect.But you really can’t blame them- they are products of their training, largely funded by GSK, Merck etc

    and yet

    And by the way, I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am not opposed medicine per se.

    I really tried hard not to laugh at this, but I just couldn’t help it.

    Regarding the first two quotes:
    you are very misinformed about modern medical science, I’m afraid. True, a lot of what involves clinical practice is not science because you often have to make decisions based on the patient’s wishes and there is the whole communication-with-the-patient bit, which is not entirely based on science.

    In your list of scientific subjects taught in the medical curriculum, you missed biochemistry, pharmacology, pathology, microbiology, epidemiology. Clinical disciplines are nothing but application of concepts from these scientific subjects in the practical, clinical setting. I don’t see how you can call that “not science based”.

    Basically, you disagree with something you have not even bothered to comprehend. Your off-the-cuff dismissal of modern medicine is not even logic based. I’ll tell you what is “not science based” – your denial of germ theory, your concept of “all diseases can be cured/prevented by a ‘healthy living'”.

    And you definitely are a conspiracy theorist if you believe that medical education is funded by BigPharma. Don’t kid yourself.

    True, many physicians choose to ignore science and evidence in order to serve vested interests (e.g. Dr. Andrew Wakefield), it does not mean that you brand everyone as corrupt.

  227. #227 Th1Th2
    January 16, 2012

    Reuben wrote a blog post about how anti-vaxers (and Thingy) use the whole “polio vaccines cause polio” truism to scare you, if you’re dumb enough to believe them…

    Which is why the vaccinators are the number one germ theory denialists.

  228. #228 Militant Agnostic
    January 16, 2012

    Emily

    And secondly, the Native American Indians did not die a day after meeting whites. It was after their lifestyles had been compromised that they fell ill.

    You are displaying your total ignorance of germ theory and of history. It takes more than a day for infections to take hold and much longer for them to spread from one Native to the next. The native populations collapsed long before their lifestyles became “compromised”. When Cortez took the Aztec’s Capital City in Mexico with a handful of soldiers, the Aztec’s hadn’t changed their lifestyles one bit, but they had been weakened by a massive epidemic. The native population of Eastern Canada and New England collapsed soon after they began casual trading with European fisherman, long in advance of widespread European colonization. I hardly think trading their used underwear for a few metal knives, axes and the occasional bottle of rum “compromised their lifestyle” significantly. The conquest of New England and especially Canada was relatively peaceful because the First Nations had been devastated by disease. In fact when most of the colonists arrived re-wilding of the landscape had occurred as the wilderness took over the land formerly occupied by the Natives. The depopulation in the 16th, 17th and early 18th centuries took place well in advance of colonization and significant changes in the lifestyle of the Native North Americans.

  229. #229 LW
    January 16, 2012

    Emily @218: please use either quote marks or blockquote to separate your words from what you’re quoting. It is confusing to read a comment in which you appear to be arguing with yourself.

    Lupus is hopelessly treated medically, yet quite easily & successfully recovered from through the application of natural hygiene principles.

    Well, that ought to be a relatively testable claim. I always like claims that a disease is “quite easily & successfully recovered from”. You have the PubMed cases, I presume?

  230. #230 Andreas Johansson
    January 16, 2012

    Militant Agnostic wrote:

    In fact, at least in the northeast, the life expectancy of pre-contact Native Americans was a couple of years longer than that of Europeans.

    Which Europeans when?

    I wonder if part of Emily raising her children as naturaly as possible includes teaching them how to hunt with neolithic weapons, butcher their kill or carrion and gather edible plants in the woods. After all, agriculture is so unnatural.

    I suspect you mean palaeolithic weapons. Agriculture is usually taken to be the defining feature of the Neolithic.

    T-reg is right tho – any sort of weapons are surely unnatural. Frankly, anything out of the water is decidedly suspect. And I’ll point out that unicells don’t get cancer – makes you think, doesn’t it? Maybe progress aint quite all what it’s made out to be.

  231. #231 Denice Walter
    January 16, 2012

    @ Emily:

    Although you may not *personally* subscribe to any of the alt med/ natural health advocates I survey, some of your ideas *sound* quite similar. Needless to say, these concepts have been around a long time: people are suspicious of physical intervention with their bodies and interference with their autonomy. Most alt med speaks to this ( possibly naturally-selected) fear; also ideas have filtred down over the past 150 years or so ( I know most about those in US and UK)- e.g. vegetarianism, the value of grains, anti-vaccination etc.

    Right now there are several groups who promote diet and supplements as alternatives to medical care: the Alliance for Natural Health ( worldwide), the Natural Solutions Foundation, as well as promoters whose websites provide “information” as well as selling products ( cited above by me). They have vested interests in alienating trust in doctors and pharmaceuticals: both monetary and psychological- people without serious educations criticising entire professions and business sectors and developing a following- that’s an ego booster!

    I have heard irresponsible advice given to people with serious conditions- including scaring folks off of most pharmaceutical products : chemotherapy for cancer, meds for mental illness, ARVs for HIV/AIDS, most vaccines, as well as drugs for heart disease, and antibiotics. Often their supporting “data” is a pastiche of unrelated studies, poorly done research, polemics, and out-dated resources. They present themselves as “experts” when commonly they do not have relevant training: more significantly they are not tested and monitored as doctors are- *yet* they prescribe treatment plans and may tell their followers to avoid all doctors but NDs ( HealthRanger.com). They also have a political agenda that opposes regulation.

    Because their ideas are *not* supported by data they need rely on conspiracies to explain why their hypothesis- although it is “correct”- has never been accepted by the mainstream. Contemplate the magnitude of a conspiracy that would explain how AJW was “shafted”: it would have to encompass pharmaceutical companies, medical associations, media, and goverments in at least two countries *working together*. How likely is that?

  232. #232 Raging Bee
    January 16, 2012

    If antibiotics are essential, how is it that my 4 kids, myself, my husband & many of my colleagues have NEVER taken antibibiotics, or any drugs, for over 20 years?

    If resetting of broken bones is so essential as the medical establishment says it is, how is it that I’ve NEVER had to have a broken bone reset?

    Also, Emily, you were asked a direct question about eating food out that had been spoiled from being left out in the open for too long. And you never answered it, which proves both your dishonesty and your inability to control your emotions.

  233. #233 Narad
    January 16, 2012

    Maggots don’t cause the carcass & flies don’t cause the garbage & germs don’t cause the disease, they FOLLOW it.

    And by the way, the human body has about 100 trillion cells & 10 times as many microorganisms ( viruses, bacteria etc) residing in/on it. God help us if germs are the cause of disease.We would never be well.

    I take it that Emily’s too busy being enlightened to have noted the obvious contradiction here.

  234. #234 LW
    January 16, 2012

    I suspect Emily is a naturopath or similar alt-med practitioner. She claims that, “I have seen literally thousands of cases of people who have been suffering from A) their disease & b) their medical treatment of their disease.” She didn’t answer my question as to what she does to have seen so many. She doesn’t sound like a real doctor, and a non-practitioner is unlikely to see (or claim to see) that many people with those complaints.

  235. #235 Militant Agnostic
    January 16, 2012

    Andreas Johannsen

    Which Europeans when?

    Probably British/French and at the same time. There were a lot of diseases in Europe like smallpox and bubonic plague that were not present in North America. I suspect European warfare was more deadly than that in New England and Eastern Canada as well.

  236. #236 Interrobang
    January 16, 2012

    Not to mention that in many cases the diseases brought by Europeans moved ahead of the Europeans and killed off entire civilisations (such as the Mississippi valley mound-building people) before the colonists even got there, let alone “changed their lifestyle.” Money quote: English explorers along the Atlantic Coast described coming upon villages wiped out by disease, with skeletons so thick on the ground they crunched under the white men’s feet.

  237. #237 Chris
    January 16, 2012

    Emily:

    And secondly, the Native American Indians did not die a day after meeting whites. It was after their lifestyles had been compromised that they fell ill.

    Pizarro and the Inca Empire have been mentioned, as has the east coast of North America (except the part where the Puritans actually used previously cultivated fields from a tribe that no longer existed).

    Now let us see how she does with the other side of the continent. Emily what caused the Whitman massacre? Why did George Vancouver and Peter Puget see evidence on smallpox when they were the first Europeans to see the Puget Sound Native Americans?

    And I am still waiting to find out with real evidence why the rate of measles in the USA in 1970 was only 10% of what it was in 1960. Surely, Emily, you have the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that explain it already?

  238. #238 flip
    January 16, 2012

    #211, T-reg

    Thank you for that wonderfully succinct and well-thought out response.

  239. #239 Dangerous Bacon
    January 16, 2012

    emily: ” Professor Linus Pauling , dual Nobel Laureate, said “the cancer establishment is largely a fraud”
    emily:
    “but then intelligence & stupidity are not incompatible.”

    You go, girl!

  240. #240 Krebiozen
    January 16, 2012

    I’ll just mention that RA, MS and lupus are all illnesses with variable courses that are darlings of alternative health practitioners, as any period of remission can be attributed to whatever intervention has been used, and any exacerbation is a “healing crisis” or a “detox reaction”. I find it interesting that Emily’s “cures”, that presumably are dietary, are all of these illnesses.

    The claim that someone had the flu every year until they did X or gave up Y is also interesting as recent studies found that only 5% of unvaccinated people got flu in any given season. That means that people get flu every 20 years, on average.

  241. #241 Andreas Johansson
    January 16, 2012

    Militant Agnostic wrote:

    Probably British/French and at the same time. There were a lot of diseases in Europe like smallpox and bubonic plague that were not present in North America. I suspect European warfare was more deadly than that in New England and Eastern Canada as well.

    I was asking because if I understand correctly, there was a lot of variation between different times and regions in early modern Europe. The Swedish life expectancy, if memory serves, seems to have shot up by well more than a couple years during the 18th century, probably because of fewer wars and less frequent failed harvests. I’d expect something similar goes for England and France (not fewer wars perhaps in those cases, but definitely less fighting inside the country, as they both took to primarily fighting on other people’s land in the 18th, after both suffering civil wars in the 17th).

  242. #242 Emily
    January 16, 2012

    To T Reg @211:

    Agree with some of your points, just that I intervene a lot less & a lot later. For your edification (& all out there at discussionland), please study the principles & practices of Natural Hygiene & in particular the fantastic benefits of water-only fasting.This allows such a great respite for the body: inflammatory cytokines are deactivated, white blood cells de-marginated & near miracles happen. That is how the people with RA, SLE & other chronic diseases were able to reverse most if not all their pathology, followed by an appropriate diet/lifestyle.
    (www.healthpromoting.com www. fastingbydesign.com) Also read Dr Joel Fuhrman’s book Fasting & Eating for Health.

    I can hear the chorus of disapproval already: Where are the studies? These people are quacks! If “real” doctors are not aware of it, it must be woo.

    I also know it will never appeal because their is no money in sipping water when thirsty & leaning how powerful the human body is when given conducive conditions.

    To Chris, my long suffering, ignored friend: I do not know everything (I’m not young enough for that!)& I do not know why the figures were as you said, & I haven’t had time to look more deeply into it.

  243. #243 Shay
    January 16, 2012

    If antibiotics are essential, how is it that my 4 kids, myself, my husband & many of my colleagues have NEVER taken antibibiotics, or any drugs, for over 20 years?

    Can’t wait for DOD to decide there’s something in what Emily says, and order military surgeons to go back to treating wounds with boiling treacle.

  244. #244 Denice Walter
    January 16, 2012

    I’d like to second Julian Frost- although about 85% of what I write is directly addressed to lurkers anyway ( yes, I’ve counted)

    One problem with battling alt med misinformation is that the targetted audience may be under-educated ( through no fault of their own *most* times) because of lessened requirements in natural science while science and technology have expanded by leaps and bounds. Barely or spuriously educated “experts” “enlighten” them about intricacies of human physiology ( mostly fictitious) and “suppressed” “cures” for serious illnesses. It’s fitting that this long discussion should follow a post about AJW.

    Interestingly enough, the UK was home to another fraud: a psychologist created data to illustrate the inheritability of intelligence which had social implications for educational funding- for if intelligence is largely fixed, why spend money assisting non-achievers? The direction of the fraud was towards long-standing prejudice and stereotyping just as AJW’s “data” fit long-standing, un-warranted fears about vaccines. Perhaps these frauds were tailored to specific, ready audiences.

    There may be deep-seated reasons for our fears and prejudices that have had evolutionary significance: injection of foreign substances or ingestion of novel ones may have worked *against* us at one time in our history, just like fearing people who *don’t look exactly like us* might have been a selective advantage hundreds of millenia ago. Understanding science gives us insight into phenomena that affect us in every aspect of daily life- all life passes through our own cogitive lens and its distortions- like it or not.
    Thanks for bearing with me on this long trek as I’ve tried to put inter-related but ephemeral concepts into words.

  245. #245 Chris
    January 16, 2012

    Emily:

    o Chris, my long suffering, ignored friend: I do not know everything (I’m not young enough for that!)& I do not know why the figures were as you said, & I haven’t had time to look more deeply into it.

    It is really quite a simple answer. You just have to look past the principals of “Natural Hygiene” and actually embrace real science, and read some history. Perhaps if you had learned some of the latter your ideas on the Native population of the American continents would be more accurate.

    Do try harder. I provided you the census data, all you have to do is look in some real resources. There are also some very interesting books on history like Pox: An American History, Polio: an American Story, Inside the Outbreaks, The Ghost Map and The Great Influenza.

    You might also try catching up on some basic biology, and acquaint yourself with the PubMed index. Your comments about Natural Hygiene would only work on Htrae (no one who denies germ theory would mention cytokines, or even care about leukocytes).

    Though do try harder to find that answer, I am really curious what you will come up with. Because those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, we already had an echo between 1989 to 1991, and it looks like we will have another one soon.

  246. #246 Chemmomo
    January 16, 2012

    Emily,

    To Chris, my long suffering, ignored friend: I do not know everything (I’m not young enough for that!)& I do not know why the figures were as you said, & I haven’t had time to look more deeply into it.

    Scroll up to comment #49 to see the numbers Chris posted. If you don’t believe her numbers, click the link (blue text) which will bring you to the sources of the numbers.

    And then just think about it for a few minutes.

    That’s all we’re asking: think about it.

    (And, no, Sicksause, I’m still not Chris.)

  247. #247 Chris
    January 16, 2012

    Hey, my comment had no links and was not long! I really hate the moderation bot.

    Emily, try harder to answer my question. It is a very simple answer, all you have to do is know a little history and some real science.

  248. #248 Chemmomo
    January 16, 2012

    Chris@ 244
    This is just way too funny!

  249. #249 Chris
    January 16, 2012

    It is not the first time, and there are always interesting reasons for some to never ever attempt to type out the only answer. My favorite are the ones who try to use data from Wales and England, which last I looked were not part of the USA.

    Though I should warn her that the census data is on a very large pdf file, and it is on one of several tables. Though tp be nice, here is that data plotted out.

  250. #250 alison
    January 16, 2012

    Quoth Emily: I also know it will never appeal because their is no money in sipping water when thirsty
    I dunno, those homeopaths seem to be onto something…

  251. #251 Emily
    January 17, 2012

    No interest out there in fasting & Natural Hygiene? Surely some of you are keen to learn the true biological principles of health & disease.

    If these principles were practiced, then 90% of both modern medicine & alt/med practitioners would be on the hunt for another line of income!

    Give the body a chance!!! Why is medicine so bloody militaristic? Almost every deviation from normal physiology is suppressed. Anti-pyrretics, anti-biotics, anti-virals, anti hypertensives,anti-resorptives, anti -acids anti this, anti that. The war metaphor is apt. No wonder people have lost faith in the power of their own bodies, because the medical fraternity have never learnt it. Nutrition is not even taught to any great level in med school. My God!! Fasting is not even mentioned. And still we have tosillectomies, appendecectomies, cholecystectomies,hysterectomies, thyroidectomies, the vast majority of which could be avoided (not all!).

    It is little wonder that people turn to alternatives. They are speaking with their feet & their money.However, there are some medics who come upon more efficacious methods of restoring health, but they have to learn them outside medical school. I refer to Drs Jonn McDougall, Joel Fuhrman, Dean Ornish, Peter Sultana, Caldwell Esselstyn, Michael Klaper, Michael Stern, Alexander Fine, Theo Coumentakis amongst others. Seek them out, you’ll be far better off than the just seeing the average grass-roots doctor or specialist who knows very little about nutrition, fasting & the true causes of health & disease.

  252. #252 alison
    January 17, 2012

    Emily, you need to review your understanding of basic biology. Antivirals kill viruses & antibiotics kill bacteria, both in contexts where these microbes would quite possibly kill us. Neither viruses nor bacteria are part of our “normal physiology” (although they may be part of our normal commensal community).

  253. #253 Chris
    January 17, 2012

    Emily, why did the rate of measles incidence plummet 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA? Please provide adequate documentation for your answer from PubMed indexed papers.

  254. #254 T-reg
    January 17, 2012

    @Flip: thank you. :)

    @Emily:

    My sincere request to you is to acquaint yourself with what you wish to talk about before actually talking about it. I don’t understand what makes you think that nutrition is not taught in med school. Just because practitioners of SBM do not agree with your notions of diet and fasting, it does not mean that they are not taught about nutrition during the course of their training or that they don’t know anything about it either. It is quite the other way round.

    Regarding the effects of fasting – the metabolic and physiological consequences of fasting are well studied in biochemistry and physiology (the subjects which you consider as the only science taught in med school).

    Another misconception – “physicians would not use ‘natural’ remedies because it does not hold any profit for them.”

    Care to explain why physicians recommend a healthy diet, weight control and exercise for prevention of Type II Diabetes Mellitus? After all, if the patient develops DM, regular visits to the physician would be more profitable to the physician. Also, ophthalmological and surgical complications would allow other doctors to earn some money as well.

    The aforementioned advice is also used as the first line management of impaired glucose tolerance (i.e. pre-diabetes), instead of drugs.

    Drugs and surgery are taken as the last options in the management of obesity.

    Control of salt intake is advised in patients with Hypertension or Cardiac failure.

    Control of protein intake is advised in patients with renal disease.

    Coeliac disease is managed with a gluten free diet.

    Adequate fluid intake and ORS (even if a crude home made replacement) are the only treatment routinely advised for most cases of diarrhea.

    Most viral infections are treated with the advice of adequate rest and plenty of fluids. The advice for anti-pyretic use (as has been pointed above) is only used to make the patient comfortable OR to bring down the fever if it goes too high.

    All the public health warnings regarding smoking, are made with the aim of preventing lung cancer, TAO, emphysema and chronic bronchitis. Don’t you think doctors would earn more by treating these illnesses rather than preventing them by promoting a healthy life-style?

    Also, about fasting – I come from a culture where there are all sorts of fasts. Water only fast? Yup, seen that. No water, either, fast? Yup, seen that too. Eating a small meal once a day fast? No cereals or alternate diet? ‘Eating 2 small meals before sunset and no more’ fast? Eating an hour after sunrise? Eating 3 hours after sunrise? Alternate days of fasting without water for a whole year? Yup, seen all of these. Most practitioners are my relatives and they continue to suffer from their illnesses (DM, RA, HTN, OA, ILD). Again, this is just anecdotal and not really conclusive evidence, but there you have it.

    And please, let’s not go into the semantics of “anti this or anti that”. Why should it matter what we call the drug? If you don’t like anti-hypertensive, we’ll call it ‘blood pressure reducer’. Will that be ok with you? Will it effect how it works or its efficacy (outside of the placebo effect)?

    What you are talking about, are notions which you have developed sitting and dreaming on an armchair with a head full of misinformation and misconceptions. The fundamentals of medical science, on the other hand, have been concluded over a hundred years by people who have actually done experiments (and continue to do so). These experiments have also been recreated by independent researchers and are also consistent with other findings.

    Scientific research requires an open mind, but not such an open mind as to allow your brains to fall out. Having an open mind does not mean that we must accept something that goes against thorough, reality based observations.

    You are advising us to go and read about the alternative therapies. I would like to point out to you that the author of this blog does that and more – he deconstructs the fallacies and the implausibility of such claims in this very blog. Use the search function at the top left corner of this page and see for yourself.

    And no, we don’t just take Orac’s word for it. We have our mental faculties too, and we make use of them. Besides, documented evidence is not so hard to find in these days of the internet. All you have to do is search and put in the effort to comprehend.

    Ironically, it is you who needs to read up on what science really says.

    I hate to break this to you, but there is no point in denying that you are not an alt-med practitioner, because you are. You may (by your own admission) not be working for profit or selling something, but you still are an alt med practitioner.

    Doctors charge money for their services because they also need to earn and feed a family. Unfortunately, the human body is complex and diseases are complex thus the training to understand and treat diseases takes too much time to allow for a simultaneous career in anything else. So doctors have to earn through the practice of medicine. But that does not mean that they (barring exceptions) resort to cheating patients to fill their own pockets or shill for BigPharma.

  255. #255 Emily
    January 17, 2012

    To Chris:

    Read the JID but sorry- I am not a convert. In fact, I feel more convinced of Natural Hygiene principles than ever. How can you say that Natural Hygiene is not “real science”? I feel you probably have no real idea of these principles, so it was a throw-away line.

    How could it be that many poor wretches suffering influenza & severe pneumonia in the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918-9 survived without the usual rounds of drugs & aspirin, & were put in tents on hills because hospital beds were full?
    “To Surgeon -General William Brooks the temperature charts told the story: fresh air, sunshine, a fruit & water diet were producing miraculous results. The results were startling.For the first time since the epidemic began there was hope that the unknown virus might yet be defeated with nature’s own weapons” pp78-79

    What an absolute tragedy the esteemed scientists of today think our only hope against germs, pandemics & epidemics lies with vaccinations.

    No Chris, I read your articles & thought, thank God I have raised my children & helped people with natural hygiene philosophy & practice. I understand the true power of healing that lies innate within us all.What would anyone learn from the official CDC propaganda: wash your hands, provide a barrier & get jabbed with chemicals, attenuated viruses & adjuvants. No wonder the States has a terrible health record in so many parameters, including childhhod health. No wonder there are more & more great doctors lambasting modern medical practice- from Dr John McDougall, Caldwell Esselstyn, Dean Ornish, Joel Fuhrman, Neal Barnard, Peter Sultana, Ray Strand, Bernie Siegel & others- free thinkers all of them, not beholden to the drug companies.

    Indeed, it was DR Marcia Angell, 20 years editor of the NEJM who said: “the FDA is now so dependent on the pharmaceutical industry it has now become big pharma’s handmaiden” p243 in her book ‘The Truth about the Drug Companies: How they Deceive Us & What to do About it’

    Also in her book

    ” I became increasingly troubled by the possibility that much published research is seriously flawed” (p18 intro)
    “The pharmaceutical industry has an iron grip on Congress & the White House” (Back cover).

    I suppose she has crossed to the dark side also, part of the woo brigade who believe in conspiracies & the like.

    Wow all, if this is science, call me a quack!& I’ll continue to not vaccinate my children.

  256. #256 Julian Frost
    January 17, 2012

    Emily:

    If these principles were practiced, then 90% of both modern medicine & alt/med practitioners would be on the hunt for another line of income!

    Ah yes, the “Terrain of the Body” argument. It’s bulldust. Healthy people can be killed by infections.

    Give the body a chance!!! Why is medicine so bloody militaristic? Almost every deviation from normal physiology is suppressed. Anti-pyrretics, anti-biotics, anti-virals, anti hypertensives,anti-resorptives, anti -acids anti this, anti that.

    Firstly, I think you’ll find that only severe deviations from normal physiology are treated. Secondly, the “anti-“s are against things that could easily kill you if left untreated.

    Nutrition is not even taught to any great level in med school. My God!! Fasting is not even mentioned.

    Would a Medical Practitioner care to comment? I believe you’re incorrect.

    still we have tosillectomies, appendecectomies, cholecystectomies,hysterectomies, thyroidectomies, the vast majority of which could be avoided (not all!).

    ORLY? I’d like to know how healthy living could have helped an 18-year-old I knew who had hypothyroidism. She died last year.

    there are some medics who come upon more efficacious methods of restoring health, but they have to learn them outside medical school…Seek them out, you’ll be far better off than the just seeing the average grass-roots doctor or specialist who knows very little about nutrition, fasting & the true causes of health & disease.

    The “true causes” of health and disease?? This is just more “terrain of the body” hogwash.

  257. #257 Chris
    January 17, 2012

    Emily, please answer my question. It is really a very simple thing to find out once you open your mind to real science and history.

  258. #258 alison
    January 17, 2012

    Emily: And still we have tosillectomies, appendecectomies, cholecystectomies,hysterectomies, thyroidectomies, the vast majority of which could be avoided (not all!).

    Hmmm. My mother developed endometrial cancer & a hysterectomy. I will be interested to hear how that could have been avoided (although I suppose your ‘not all!’ provides you with a convenient out).

  259. #259 LW
    January 17, 2012

    T-reg, thank you. That was great. I always appreciate your comments here. Unfortunately Emily won’t pay any attention.

  260. #260 Old Rockin' Dave
    January 17, 2012

    J. I. Rodale, founder and publisher of Prevention Magazine, was a guest on Dick Cavett’s show in 1972. Conversing with Cavett on stage, Rodale bragged “I’m in such good health that I fell down a long flight of stairs yesterday and I laughed all the way”. He also said “I’ve decided to live to be a hundred”, echoing an earlier claim that “I’m going to live to be 100, unless I’m run down by some sugar-crazed taxi driver.”
    A few minutes later, still on stage, he suffered a heart attack and died. He was 72 years old.

  261. #261 T-reg
    January 17, 2012

    @LW: Thank you. I am not sure whether we can convince emily to take a more rational approach, but the lurkers always benefit.

  262. #262 Chris
    January 17, 2012

    Emily, in a comment that is now out of moderation:

    How can you say that Natural Hygiene is not “real science”? I feel you probably have no real idea of these principles, so it was a throw-away line.

    Well, for one thing you have not shown anything to prove it is real and scientific. You are saying things that are contradictory, and just play name dropping with no real references.

    What an absolute tragedy the esteemed scientists of today think our only hope against germs, pandemics & epidemics lies with vaccinations.

    Stay away from open flames with that strawman.

    You keep trying to “educate” us but you cannot answer a very simple question, one where finding the answer can take just a few minutes of research in the real scientific literature, but with a mind open to reality.

    So, Emily, exactly why did the rate of measles incidence in the USA drop by 90% between 1960 and 1970. There are several articles indexed on PubMed about it, try looking there. No more excuses.

  263. #263 Chris
    January 17, 2012

    Also, Emily, please help explain the following phrases into English or provide documentation:

    “Read the JID but sorry” — sorry, I don’t speak “initials.”

    “”To Surgeon -General William Brooks the temperature charts…” —- citation needed, sorry, I am not take your word for it without proof.

    “No wonder the States has a terrible health record in so many parameters, including childhhod health….” — compared to when? A century ago? Please provide citations.

    “from Dr John McDougall, Caldwell Esselstyn, Dean Ornish, Joel Fuhrman, Neal Barnard, Peter Sultana, Ray Strand, Bernie Siegel & others- free thinkers all of them,…” — again citations, I recognize only one name, and I really don’t think you are depicting him accurately.

    “Indeed, it was DR Marcia Angell, 20 years editor of the NEJM who said:…” — again, citation needed, because I need to see the whole quote in context.

    The previous is why we insist on real citations. Please tell us why the rate of measles incidence in 1970 was only 10% of what is was in 1960 in the USA. I actually left you a very big clue, start there.

  264. #264 Vicki
    January 17, 2012

    Emily’s claims aren’t even consistent. Yes, Semmelweis’s work reduced mortality. It did so because effective handwashing stops transmission of germs. Emily, you say you don’t accept the germ theory; was the disease somehow scared off by the nasty-smelling chemicals Semmelweis had doctors use? (And if so, why are soap and hot water, and alcohol-based hand sanitizers, also effective?)

    Similarly, she observes that much of the increase in lifespan was due to reduction of infant mortality. True, but not supportive of her claims: infant mortality was reduced largely by hygiene (which prevents the spread of germs) and then by antibiotics and vaccination. Not by the old “treatment” of withholding food and water from people with diarrhea (which probably qualifies as a “fast” in Emily’s model).

  265. #265 Krebiozen
    January 17, 2012

    Dr John McDougall, Caldwell Esselstyn and Dean Ornish all prescribe statins, and are thus clearly beholden to the drug companies.

  266. #266 Narad
    January 17, 2012

    For your edification (& all out there at discussionland), please study the principles & practices of Natural Hygiene & in particular the fantastic benefits of water-only fasting.

    Do edify everyone about the fantastic benefits provided to William Carlton.

  267. #267 Chris
    January 17, 2012

    Vicki:

    Emily’s claims aren’t even consistent.

    I noticed. Why would she even mention white blood cells if she denies germ theory?

    Narad:

    Do edify everyone about the fantastic benefits provided to William Carlton.

    Or how well it worked for Dr. Immanuel Pfeiffer:

    Pfeiffer, a physician who advocated fasting and hypnotism, was at one time president of the American Psychic Society.28 A vehement critic of the Board of Health, he apparently thought that people in good health were not at risk for contracting smallpox — a belief that was not representative of the views expressed by those who opposed vaccination.

    Despite her denial, her children are being protected by herd immunity, and even by the removal of germs from her local water supply. She is being a parasite on society.

    And she still needs to answer my very simple question.

  268. #268 augustine
    January 17, 2012

    Please tell us why the rate of measles incidence in 1970 was only 10% of what is was in 1960 in the USA.

    Please tell us why the mortality dropped drastically before the vaccine was used? Was it because of the vaccine.

    Prevaccine era, why did 99.99% of the population NOT have to worry about measles?If you confer lifelong natural immunity, how many booster shots do you have to get? Why do you have to get booster shots? Isn’t the vaccine as good or better than natural infection?

    In general, what type of person dies from measles? Why is the death rate now 1 per 1000 cases when it used to be about 1 per 9000? Why do some areas report mortality 1 per 100? Is the risk homogenous?

    Everyone is not scared of measles in spite of all the fear mongering.

  269. #269 dedicated lurker
    January 17, 2012

    Hey Emily, are adenoidectomies all right? You didn’t mention them at all.

  270. #270 Th1Th2
    January 17, 2012

    why did the rate of measles incidence in the USA drop by 90% between 1960 and 1970.

    Diagnostic bias.

    Measles has long been recognized as one of the “inevitable traumas of childhood” (356). Although the advent of a successful vaccination program during the past decade has greatly reduced the incidence of “clinical” measles infections (24, 180, 198), research on measles virus has recently received increased attention.

    But since vaccinators are the number one germ theory denialists, they were molded not to report vaccine-induced measles infection.

    Measles vaccine produces an inapparent or mild, noncommunicable infection.

    Of course, no amount of explaining could have possibly convinced Chris, a germ denialist and an infection promoter both at the same time.

  271. #271 dedicated lurker
    January 17, 2012

    If “paralysis = polio” what’s measles? Skin rash?

  272. #272 Th1Th2
    January 17, 2012

    If “paralysis = polio” what’s measles? Skin rash?

    They both are “clinical” diagnoses, so what would you expect of measles? Can you try a little bit harder? Geez.

  273. #273 Th1Th2bot Reunion Tour
    January 17, 2012

    Can you try a little bit harder? Geez.

    So proud of what that I am pretty soon; don’t. Have like half-normal flora is not an oxymoron. This system will needlessly suffer. The bad body has to say to rest of vaccines, “is not arguing like a need serious” with his very similar to straw man. They will observe this discussion customer, day, you don’t know. So take yourself diseased, to as you, to the WC pertussis vaccine.

  274. #274 Narad
    January 17, 2012

    Measles has long been recognized as one of the “inevitable traumas of childhood” (356). Although the advent of a successful vaccination program during the past decade has greatly reduced the incidence of “clinical” measles infections (24, 180, 198), research on measles virus has recently received increased attention.

    Have you noticed that the link was also broken the last time you posted this?

  275. #275 Th1Th2
    January 17, 2012

    Have you noticed that the link was also broken the last time you posted this?

    In fact I have but I thought it was just a glitch or something. Thanks, anyway.

    Measles Virus and Its Associated Diseases

    h_ttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC414019/pdf/bactrev00057-0102.pdf

  276. #276 Emily
    January 17, 2012

    @Treg252′

    The SBM approach to the diseases you mentioned sound really good, except it’s not working. Read Dr Neal Barnard on what really needs to be done to deal with the diabetes epidemic! Read Dr Caldwell Esslestyn about what really needs to be done about the CHD epidemic! Read Dr Dean Ornish about what really needs to be done about the hormonally-based dideases of the breast & prostate! Read Dr Fuhrman concerning the nonsense put forth medically about SBM’s claim they understand nutrition! Read Dr Brown Better Bones site to really understand the dangers of the medical approach to osteopenia/osteoporosis!

    Give me a break! Your SBM is failing & failing fast when it comes to chronic diseases. Why is ithis?

    Dr Marcia Angell, 20 years Editor of the prestigious NEJM, calls it like it is: “the FDA has now become the handmaiden of Big Pharma!”

    Read Dr Ray Strand’s expose of your SBM in his book Death by Prescription!

    Read the JAMA story (1999 referred to earlier) where SBM is the FOURTH leading cause of death in the States, & that’s only factoring in “properly prescribed medication”.

    Read the report by Dr Richard Ablin, the inventor of the PSA test- “it’s no better than a coin toss!”

    Read Dr Donald Berwick’s ( outgoing head of Medicare/Medicaid) 2 months ago- up to ONE THIRD of SBM is a waste, costing 250billion dollars & “thousands of lives”

    Read the Headline of the BMJ 2002:

    “Who Owns the FDA- the People or the Drug Companies?”

    Read about GSK being fined $3 BILLION 3 months ago for, wait for it, FRAUD. Plus other billion dollar fines for other drug companies.

    SBM is being attacked from its own ranks- & rightly so. For the magnificent 10% of SBM, which does save lives & make life much easier, you have the other nonsense of 90% (read non-science).

    Please, open your eyes! The truth is right in front of your face, but to anyone like you who thinks that denial is a river in Egypt, there is little hope!

  277. #277 alison
    January 17, 2012

    Emily, why don’t you also do a bit of reading? Many of your exclamatory statements have been addressed by other commenters here (including requests for citations, please). Normal conversations tend to be two-way & usually don’t involve shouting at each other. The use of reason tends to be much more effective.

  278. #278 Calli Arcale
    January 17, 2012

    Emily, that came across more as a series of advertising plugs than as an actual attempt at discussion. It’s full of nonsequitors too, unless of course you *meant* for the various (unlinked) references to have no real relationship to one another.

  279. #279 Science Mom
    January 17, 2012

    Looks like Emily took the blue pill. Put her in the ***kin sack.

  280. #280 flip
    January 17, 2012

    Oh Emily, for someone who says she’s not for or against either SBM or CAM… you certainly do sound a lot like a pro-CAM person.

    (Total anecdote, but recently I went to see a doctor about a chronic condition. You know what they told me? Exercise, balanced eating, avoid smoking (although I already do that). And this was instead of, or as well as, advising me to take some SBM meds in the meantime. In fact, every doctor I’ve ever met has recommended that… Even my dentists have remaked on eating well)

    Can you at least try to post references/citations? Maybe you can’t answer the questions posed to you, but the least you could do is actually post references when encouraging people to read whatever it is you want them to read. How can anyone be open-minded when they don’t know what it is you’re asking them to look at?

  281. #281 Narad
    January 17, 2012

    Please, open your eyes! The truth is right in front of your face, but to anyone like you who thinks that denial is a river in Egypt, there is little hope!

    Simply ranting and declaring victory isn’t impressive or convincing, Emily.

  282. #282 Anton P. Nym
    January 17, 2012

    The truth is right in front of your face, but to anyone like you who thinks that denial is a river in Egypt, there is little hope!

    Emily, I’m calling you “Cleo” from now on. Serious “mote-and-beam” projection issues going on here from the Queen of de Nile… *shakes head*

    — Steve

  283. #283 dedicated lurker
    January 17, 2012

    Everyone is not scared of measles in spite of all the fear mongering.

    Funny, you seem to be terribly frightened of the vaccine.

  284. #284 Chris
    January 17, 2012

    Emily:

    Please, open your eyes! The truth is right in front of your face, but to anyone like you who thinks that denial is a river in Egypt, there is little hope!

    Certainly. I looked and know the very simple answer to why the incidence rate of measles dropped 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA. Something you have yet to answer. Why is that? Plus, my question actually has to do with the subject of this article, not the diversions you keep trying to throw out.

    Now, for the nth time, Emily, why was 1970 measles morbidity one tenth of what it was in 1960 in the United States of America? Please support your answer with actual citations. Thank you.

  285. #285 lilady
    January 17, 2012

    Welcome back to the Th1Th2bot Reunion Tour!

    @ Science Mom: I gave up on “Emily” two days ago…and I figuratively put her in the ***kin sack then.

  286. #286 Dangerous Bacon
    January 17, 2012

    emily, I read “The Great Influenza: The Epic Story of the Deadliest Plague in History”. It did not feature happy influenza patients enjoying sunshine, fresh air and fruit in their hillside tents, recovering naturally away from those nasty doctors. The book instead describes virulently ill patients, young and previously healthy, dying by the thousands in those days before flu vaccines.

    “SBM is being attacked from its own ranks”

    Yes, self-criticism is considered normal and healthy in science-based medicine. So where’s that searching self-analysis and criticism in the world of alt med?

    (crickets)

  287. #287 redacted
    January 17, 2012

    “Read Dr Donald Berwick’s ( outgoing head of Medicare/Medicaid) 2 months ago- up to ONE THIRD of SBM is a waste, costing 250billion dollars & “thousands of lives””

    “SBM is being attacked from its own ranks- & rightly so. For the magnificent 10% of SBM, which does save lives & make life much easier, you have the other nonsense of 90% (read non-science).”

    Is she saying 90/100=1/3?

  288. #288 Chris
    January 17, 2012

    Dangerous Bacon, that sound more like the tuberculosis sanitariums. Another reason why Emily needs to provide real citations.

    But they were not hillside tents, they were actual buildings and had plenty of doctors. The author of the book The Egg and I (which turned into a movie that spawned the Pa and Ma Kettle movies), Betty McDonald, wrote about her experience in one in a book called The Plague and I. The first thing any patient had to endure was total bed rest, which was actually quite difficult for her.

    But after World War II with the invention of antibiotics, those sanitariums are now a thing of the past. The sanitarium that Betty McDonald had her treatment is now a large private religious school that goes from preschool through 12th grade. The facility that replaced the original turned into a facility for the disabled, and still serves that function in a much different way than it did years ago (like transition housing).

  289. #289 Krebiozen
    January 17, 2012

    Here’s the data Chris is referring to as a graph.

    Also, according to the CDC Pink Book, in the ten years before the measles vaccine was introduced, 1951 to 1962, there were 5,704 deaths from measles in the USA. From 1971 to 1982 there were 236 deaths.

    Is anyone seriously suggesting those huge drops in both morbidity and mortality are a coincidence, or due to improved nutrition or medical care?

  290. #290 stewartt1982
    January 17, 2012

    I think our emily is being a tad bit dishonest when she says

    Read Dr Donald Berwick’s ( outgoing head of Medicare/Medicaid) 2 months ago- up to ONE THIRD of SBM is a waste, costing 250billion dollars & “thousands of lives”

    The quote seems to be:
    “Twenty percent to thirty percent of health spending is “waste” that yields no benefit to patients, and that some of the needless spending is a result of onerous, archaic regulations enforced by his agency.”

    You can agree with him or not, but he is not saying that 20-30% of SMB is “waste” but that the spending is. I’ve not been able to find a direct quote, but his major concerns seem to be that patients are over-treated, complexity of the system, too many rules and fraud.

  291. #291 stewartt1982
    January 17, 2012

    I think our emily is being a tad bit dishonest when she says

    Read Dr Donald Berwick’s ( outgoing head of Medicare/Medicaid) 2 months ago- up to ONE THIRD of SBM is a waste, costing 250billion dollars & “thousands of lives”

    The quote seems to be:
    “Twenty percent to thirty percent of health spending is “waste” that yields no benefit to patients, and that some of the needless spending is a result of onerous, archaic regulations enforced by his agency.”

    You can agree with him or not, but he is not saying that 20-30% of SMB is “waste” but that the spending is. I’ve not been able to find a direct quote, but his major concerns seem to be that patients are over-treated, complexity of the system, too many rules and fraud.

    I can see why you didn’t actually post the quote, since it doesn’t mean what you claim it means.

  292. #292 Matthew Cline
    January 17, 2012

    @Chris:

    I noticed. Why would she even mention white blood cells if she denies germ theory?

    She seems to interpret the germ theory as saying something like “if you’re exposed to a pathogen you will get infected”, so for her rejecting the germ theory doesn’t mean rejecting that there’s an immune system which fights pathogens.

  293. #293 Chris
    January 17, 2012

    Matthew Cline:

    She seems to interpret the germ theory as saying something like “if you’re exposed to a pathogen you will get infected”,

    So she just lacks a basic understanding of high school biology. Why is she trying to educate us?

  294. #294 lilady
    January 17, 2012

    @ stewartt1982: I located a more complete quote here:

    December 3, 2011
    Health Official Takes Parting Shot at ‘Waste’
    By ROBERT PEAR

    WASHINGTON — The official in charge of Medicare and Medicaid for the last 17 months says that 20 percent to 30 percent of health spending is “waste” that yields no benefit to patients, and that some of the needless spending is a result of onerous, archaic regulations enforced by his agency.

    The official, Dr. Donald M. Berwick, listed five reasons for what he described as the “extremely high level of waste.” They are overtreatment of patients, the failure to coordinate care, the administrative complexity of the health care system, burdensome rules and fraud.

    “Much is done that does not help patients at all,” Dr. Berwick said, “and many physicians know it.”

    Dr. Berwick also discusses The Part D (Drug) Medicare coverage and National Health Care.

    Source-N.Y. Times “Health & Policy”- December 3, 2011

  295. #295 T-reg
    January 18, 2012

    @Emily:

    Science based medicine is being attacked from its own ranks! Oh the horror!!

    Welcome to the world of SBM, where self criticism is routine. SBM criticises itself to figure out where it is going wrong. When was the last time you tried to consider that what you may believe maybe flawed? The answer, I presume, is never.

    What is different about what Drs. Barnard and Esslestyn are proclaiming and what SBM advocates?
    I will admit that I have not read their books, but I did go to their websites and also read what I could find on pubmed by them. The only differences that I could find are:

    Dr. Barnard strongly advocates a vegan diet. However, he doesn’t back it with any data that a vegan diet is any more beneficial than a low fat, balanced diet with an abundance of fruits, vegetables, cereals and legumes with low consumption of meat/poultry/fish/dairy.

    Dr. Esslestyn proclaims along the same lines, except that he also advocates maintaining total cholestrol to <150 mg/dl instead of the currently recommended <200 mg/dl. He also calls for lower fat in the diet than the current ideal of 30%. Also, he does mention the benefits of using statins along with diet modifications in managing serum cholestrol levels.

    Not quite the radically different opinions that you are making them seem to be. Further research may mandate a lesser total cholestrol level than currently recommended. If that maybe the case, the guidelines will be revised (as has been done in the past in light of new evidence).

    As regards Dr. Esslestyn’s claims of total reversal of CAD with diet alone, when even expert cardiologists had ‘written those patients off’ – well it is not implausible, however, where is the data that the risk is worth the benefit?

    When one says that an expert cardiologists has “written off” the patient, it usually implies that the chances of survival are abysmally low without surgery or interventional procedures. It does not mean that the chances of survival are nil. Surgery or interventional procedures are advised in such a situation because, if solely diet and lifestyle modification are used, there is a slim (not nil) chance of survival. Those who may take the risk, may most likely not survive, but some may. Where is the data that most survive without intervention in such cases?

    How do you know that he is only talking about success stories and not the failures? Proper research talks about and analyses the findings from both, weighing the benefits against the risks.

    As further research is conducted, better understanding of previously overlooked or hitherto poorly understood parameters may emerge. This may allow the cardiologist to determine more accurately* who requires procedures and who does not. Until such information emerges, it is not worth the risk to recommend against procedures for every patient in such a situation.

    *in the above mentioned situation

    About SBM failing miserably in chronic diseases – the fact that we have patients who live long enough to suffer from their chronic diseases is a testament to the effectiveness of SBM. Without adequate management of the conditions, many would not live long enough to see the long term consequences of their disorder, because the disorder itself would have killed them long before that. As the life expectancy of patients with chronic disorders improves, the attendant long term consequences of those disease emerge which, again, SBM is making an effort to prevent. I don’t see the woo-meisters doing anything of the sort. You haven’t moved forward from the notions and misconceptions of the past 3 millennia.

  296. #296 Delurked lurker
    January 18, 2012

    Hey the new troll is a corker:)

    Be careful though because when you argue with an idiot the casual observer just sees two idiots arguing ;)

  297. #297 Chris
    January 18, 2012

    Emily, have you figured out why measles declined so quickly in the USA between 1960 and 1970 yet? Please do educate on how that happened.

  298. #298 Emily
    January 18, 2012

    For not supplying citations & references for my arguments, I apologize. I simply do not have the time to go through my notes & library & drag them out,as, like many, I have multiple responsibilities & time constraints.

    If you think that the aforementioned doctors are not highly critical of SBM, you haven’t read/heard them enough. Read Dr Joel Fuhrman’ latest book, SuperImmunity, second chapter”The Failure of Mdodern Medicine.”

    And yes, those 3 doctors do use statins but only occasionally. Read Prevent & Reverse Heart Disease by Esselstyn & see his evidence of atherosclerotic reversal without drugs!

    And Chris, I know why YOU think the measles rates declined 1960-70 but what does that prove? Vaccines work? Please define ‘work’? Because something is not there, doesn’t mean it has gone away- it just might change form. Suppress the acute, & guess what. You get the chronic! There are 2 words which have done more damage to health than any other 2 & they are “IT WORKS” .
    To be continued, as I have some sick people I need to help pilot back to health!

  299. #299 Beamup
    January 18, 2012

    @ Emily:

    A quick note: Doctors (or anybody else) attempting to use books to contradict the consensus peer-reviewed literature is a big red flag. Because books aren’t peer-reviewed, they can claim whatever they want to.

    Those who have an actual case, and are interested in making it in a way which will actually convince others, make it in the peer-reviewed literature. Those who can’t, should be viewed with extreme skepticism.

    If you can’t support your claims with REAL citations, they are unworthy of serious consideration.

  300. #300 novalox
    January 18, 2012

    And I see that emily still hasn’t answered Chris’ question.

    Not that surprised, really.

  301. #301 Chris
    January 18, 2012

    Emily:

    For not supplying citations & references for my arguments, I apologize. I simply do not have the time to go through my notes & library & drag them out,as, like many, I have multiple responsibilities & time constraints.

    Do you even know what the PubMed index is, and how to use it?

    Emily:

    And Chris, I know why YOU think the measles rates declined 1960-70 but what does that prove? Vaccines work? Please define ‘work’?

    “Work” for vaccines: kids don’t get the disease the vaccine intended for.

    Now we wait for your explanation of why only 10% of the rate sick kids with measles in 1970 than they did in 1960. And the measles rate in the USA has never been more than half the level since 1970.

    Emily:

    Because something is not there, doesn’t mean it has gone away- it just might change form. Suppress the acute, & guess what. You get the chronic!

    That is an interesting excuse for not answering the question. The old “it turned to something else that we really can’t define or prove, but we will just call it chronic” dodge. Yes, I’ve seen it before.

    Now do something original and come up with a real answer, and include actual citations.

  302. #302 Edith Prickly
    January 18, 2012

    And Chris, I know why YOU think the measles rates declined 1960-70 but what does that prove? Vaccines work? Please define ‘work’? Because something is not there, doesn’t mean it has gone away – it just might change form. Suppress the acute, & guess what. You get the chronic!

    Um, what on earth does that mean? Are you saying that vaccinating against measles somehow created a new “chronic measles” that has so far escaped the notice of the health care community? If that’s not what you meant, then please clarify.

    BTW, I have not read the Dr. Joel Fuhrman book you keep citing but I had a look at his website and I’m not impressed. He looks like a garden-variety diet and supplement shill. However, I don’t see anything about vaccines there either.

    http://www.drfuhrman.com

  303. #303 Dangerous Bacon
    January 18, 2012

    emily: “Vaccines work? Please define ‘work’? Because something is not there, doesn’t mean it has gone away- it just might change form. Suppress the acute, & guess what. You get the chronic!”

    I’d also like to hear about this “chronic measles” you seem to think has been created by vaccination. Also more about smallpox and polio, diseases I am shocked to find that we did not really eradicate, but which purportedly continue in mysterious “chronic” forms that are only detectable by anti-vaccine zealots.

    I will be patient waiting for the answer, as emily is off saving people from various ailments, some of which may even exist.

  304. #304 stewartt1982
    January 18, 2012

    Just going to add another call to emily …

    Can you explain why you mis-represented Dr Donald Berwick’s quote? Maybe you read somewhere that he said 30% of SBM is a waste, rather than read it yourself? That would be an honest, but one that should never happened, mistake.

  305. #305 Krebiozen
    January 18, 2012

    Maybe that “chronic measles” is of the asymptomatic, non-transmissible, undetectable kind that Thingy is so concerned about for reasons that escape me.

    I would like to know about Emily’s follow-up of her “cured” RA, MS and lupus cases. Call me cynical but I suspect that they have a period of remission on, but not because of, her natural hygiene fasting/diet which leads her to count them as successes. Later they relapse, realize that natural hygiene is hokum and find a proper doctor, never going back to Emily, who never finds out her approach doesn’t work.

    That’s the way a lot of so-called alternative cancer cures “work” in that they lose many patients to follow-up but count them as successes anyway, despite the fact many of them have actually died.

  306. #306 flip
    January 18, 2012

    To be continued, as I have some sick people I need to help pilot back to health!

    Methinks Emily’s pronouncements of having nothing to sell or promote is somewhat dishonest. (But I’m willing to bet she’d retort that she’s only helping out of the goodness of her heart)

    Why do I get the feeling she’s also suggesting that the vaccines turning things into chronic conditions will actually end up getting us back to the original reason for this discussion…?

  307. #307 Matthew Cline
    January 18, 2012

    @Edith Prickly:

    Are you saying that vaccinating against measles somehow created a new “chronic measles” that has so far escaped the notice of the health care community?

    Well, the article Hidden in Plain Sight by Richard Moskowitz at whale.to (not linking, to avoid the spam filter) claims that the reason that the attenuated measles virus usually causes no symptoms is because the attenuated virus evades the immune system, which lets the virus cause a permanent infection. However, this likely isn’t what Emily is talking about, since she seems to think that vaccines suppress the symptoms of the disease they vaccinate against.

  308. #308 Chris
    January 18, 2012

    Yesterday I listened to This Week in Virology. Much of it does go over my head, but I do absorb nuggets between the puns. One thing I learned was that measles virus like to invade cells that deal with immunity, which is why many people who die from measles die from secondary infections. Due to the cells measles replicates in, the immune system is suppressed and this leaves an opportunity for other pathogens.

    Nice, isn’t it.

  309. #309 T-reg
    January 19, 2012

    my post @293:
    That should have been – “Dr. Esslestyn proclaims along the same lines, except that he also advocates maintaining total cholestrol to less than 150 mg/dl instead of less than 200 mg/dl, which is currently recommended.

    @Emily:

    As for reading their books for evidence, well, if they can publish a few papers which are listed on pubmed, they can also publish their findings in support of these other claims on pubmed. But a search reveals nothing of the sort.

    As has been pointed above, you cannot expect to be taken seriously, if you are going to cite a coffee table book as your evidence.

    If you think that the aforementioned doctors are not highly critical of SBM, you haven’t read/heard them enough

    Perhaps you are right that I have not read enough about their claims and thus my conclusions about them maybe premature.
    But have you looked at the possibility that you don’t know much about SBM, either? It is also possible that they are proclaiming SBM to be flawed, relying on your ignorance of SBM and selling you almost what SBM advocates, just repackaged and at a higher price.

    On their website, they are basically peddling books and supplements, so why does it seem to you that they have no vested interests in their claims, but conventional medicine does?

    Read Prevent & Reverse Heart Disease by Esselstyn & see his evidence of atherosclerotic reversal without drugs!

    Emily, we are taking the time to read your posts, even though we don’t agree with you. The least you can do is read our posts too. I dealt with this in my post @293.

    I suggest you discard your notions of conspiracy theories for once and look at things. You alt med types keep claiming that SBM advocates are too narrow minded. However, the fact is that your inability to even momentarily suspend your beliefs about conspiracy theories indicates that the description is more apt when applied to you.

  310. #310 Th1Th2
    January 19, 2012

    Maybe that “chronic measles” is of the asymptomatic, non-transmissible, undetectable kind that Thingy is so concerned about for reasons that escape me.

    It’s called persistent measles virus infection (i.e. SSPE) caused by either natural infection or vaccine.

  311. #311 Th1Th2
    January 19, 2012

    One thing I learned was that measles virus like to invade cells that deal with immunity, which is why many people who die from measles die from secondary infections. Due to the cells measles replicates in, the immune system is suppressed and this leaves an opportunity for other pathogens.

    Nice, isn’t it.

    You know what else the measles virus** is capable of doing other than immunosuppression? Primary infection, viremia and persistent infection.

    Nice, isn’t it?

    **wild-type or vaccine-type

  312. #312 Emily
    January 19, 2012

    “Emily, you need to review your understanding of basic biology. Antivirals kill viruses & antibiotics kill bacteria, both in contexts where these microbes would quite possibly kill us. Neither viruses nor bacteria are part of our “normal physiology” (although they may be part of our normal commensal community)”

    When you understand the principles & practices of Natural Hygiene, you understand that health & disease is governed by the law of cause & effect. Diseases need causes & when causes are introduced, disease is just as natural as health, but it it is not normal. Disease is the manifestation of life in disadvantaguos circumstances, while health is simply life expressing itself in advantagous or favourable circumstances.

    Our bodies PRODUCE disease, they don’t resist it! You cannot resist something that has no entity, and disease has no entitative existence. It is really defined by a collection of symptoms & signs, the main ones being common to many diseases eg inflammation, fever, pain, secretions etc.

    A Hygienic Practitioner will remove the causes (where possible) & then supply the conditions of health. These conditions of health do not include your so-called alt/med woo, nor big pharma’s big berthas, but DO include modifications of the materials, agents & influences that have a normal relation to life.

    Eg- Years ago our 3 kids all had measles, naturally acquired (the “herd” must have let us down), they had fever, discomfort, prostration, anorexia, light sensitivity & of course the rash. Their symptoms, to us, were reparatory in nature, remedial & defensive. From our point of view, their little bodies were working as designed, producing such symptoms naturally in an effort to re-instigate howmeostasis. We were not concerned one little bit about what serotype of measles virus was involved or how we could lower their temp’s with med’s. The virus was to us, an accessory after the fact.
    The symptoms ARE the resistance, just as someone who swallows a poison will vomit. The vomiting is natural (but not normal), it is THE resistance. This is where both sides of medicine are flawed. They “treat” the symptoms. Hygienists view symptoms as “allies in disguise”.(wooooo there , I hear the chant).

    So back to the kids. What did we do? Nothing, intelligently! They all fasted on nothing but water, a little fruit after that & all conserved their energy by total bed rest. The outcome was predicably favourable, without woo or big berthas. The fevers did their job (leukotaxis) without any anti-pyrretic drugs or other alt med “remedies”. Again, woo becomes wow. Our 3 kids have become the beneficiaries of this priceless, ancient wisdom, that does not get any real emphasis in any health school, allopathic or alternative.

    Sadly, most of our children’s friends have had their tonsils out (unnecessarily), their appendix out (ditto above), are on puffers ( ditto)& have regular doses of anti-biotics. How tragic! They look at our children , who have all experienced acute illnesses the same as their friends, & wonder why they are bodily intact & drug-free. I wonder??

    Fasting is the greatest way to potentiate our health, detoxify the system ( I hear that chorus of moans across the seas again)& reverse our biological ages. Fasting, however is not a cure. Doing nothing can hardly be called a cure.

    The lady who before XMas recovered from severe, unremitting RA, fasted for 21 days ( water-only, as this is the only real fast), recovered because her body had the ability & vitality to heal itself. Heberdens nodes reduced in size, ALL pain went from the involved joints in the hands & elbows, & dexterity returned 90%. Even her rheumatologist was stunned. This was not a cycle of remission/exacerbation as she had had no remissions.

    Another gentleman with RA required 28 days on water. One lady with MS did 31 days, & went back to her neurologist with no need of interferon injections. She has maintained that for 6 years now.

    Does everyone respond so well? No! Do they all improve? Yes. Can most get off their med’s? Yes. Can they go backwards at times? Most certainly, especially if they re-introduce the causes of disease again.

    I have witnessed so many of these over the years for all sorts of illnesses, not just auto-immune conditions.

    I know you will scream “anecdotal”, & you are right. Although they are not published in peer-reviewed journals, I know there will be some one out there who will be suffering enough through their disease & the medical treatment of it that they might investigate this line of inquiry, if so please read Fasting Can Save Your Life by Herbert Shelton or Fasting & Eating for Health by DR Joel Fuhrman, or contact Dr Stephan Esser,(Clinical Fellow at Harvard Medical School & an Assistant in Clinical Development at Harvard’s Institute of Lifestyle Medicine) or Dr Michael Klaper (www.healthpromoting.com)

    Let truth be your authority, not authority your truth!

  313. #313 Julian Frost
    January 19, 2012

    Emily:

    Our bodies PRODUCE disease, they don’t resist it! You cannot resist something that has no entity, and disease has no entitative existence.

    Seriously?!?! Seriously?!?! Helloooo! There are these things called microbes which, if they get into our bodies, can cause all sorts of harm to us.

    Years ago our 3 kids all had measles…Their symptoms, to us, were reparatory in nature, remedial & defensive.

    Reparatory and remedial? Umm, no.

    The virus was to us, an accessory after the fact.

    Are you for real?! If they hadn’t been infected, they wouldn’t have had the symptoms. You’re saying that the virus follows the disease. “Terrain of the Body” is false.

    Finally, I love how your last line is “Let truth be your authority, not authority your truth” straight after listing a number of “authorities.

  314. #314 Lawrence
    January 19, 2012

    Wow Emily – so you’re telling me that my appendix, which when it was removed was 5″ long, black & gangrenous, was unnecessary?

    So I should tell the doctor, who kindly informed my wife that I would have been dead in 24hrs without the surgery (stupid stubborn temperment on my part – oh, it isn’t that bad…blah, blah, blah) that he made a mistake?

    You have got to be an extremely stupid maroon….

  315. #315 Emily
    January 19, 2012

    To Julian @ 311
    “Seriously?!?! Seriously?!?! Helloooo! There are these things called microbes which, if they get into our bodies, can cause all sorts of harm to us”.

    What do you mean, IF they get into our bodies?. For every
    one cell of Julian, there are ten viuses & bacteria. Microbes are ubiquitous in nature. I honestly laugh when I see such microbe paranoia. Why aren’t we sick all the time? We can’t escape them. You have residing in you microbes of all descriptions, by the trillions!!! How come my family (never any flu shots) have not had the flu for over 30 years while our neighbours,(unsure about their vaccination status) gets the flu EVERY year! And they blame the bugs. We laugh, not at them, but to ourselves. I guess the influenza viruses take it easy on us for some reason.

    “Reparatory and remedial? Umm, no”.

    ALL symptoms are remedial, defensive, regulatory & reparatory. Think about this for a moment. You cough. Why? To expectorate or clear the airways. It is defensive, whether clearing dust or mucous or whatever. You vomit. Why? To rid the body of toxic or unwanted matter, be it food, bile or whatever. You get a fever. Why? For every degree in rise of temperature, the rate of travel of leukocytes doubles, this is a universal, reparatory process called leukotaxis.It is needed & reparatory, the body is working as designed! Fevers are beneficial in nature. Endotherms like humans manufacture their own fevers while ectotherms, such as lizards, have to rely on external thermo-regulation, like the sun, to help restore normal function.

    “Are you for real?! If they hadn’t been infected, they wouldn’t have had the symptoms. You’re saying that the virus follows the disease. “Terrain of the Body” is false”.

    Symptoms serve a purpose, whether they are the result of an infection, inflammation, a burn, poisoning, whatever. The symptoms ARE the resistance!! This is basic biology which has been lost in modern medicine because, as Dr Marcia Angell stated in her seminal book “The truth about the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us”:

    ” The FDA is now so dependent on the pharmaceutical industry that it has become big pharma’s handmaiden” P 242.

    And Dr Angell might know. She was Editor of the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) for 20 years.

    The plethora of drugs to suppress symptoms is the result.

    And tragically, we pay a heavy price for such ignorance.

  316. #316 Emily
    January 19, 2012

    To Lawrence @ 312:

    I have seen numerous people with acute appendicitis fast (water-only) back to health with no drugs or surgery required.

    I know what I know.I have piloted many of these people personally.

    You see Lawrence, this is the difficulty when answering your point with such little to go by. How long had you had the pain? Did you medicate the pain initially? Did you drive the fever down? Did you eat when feeling unwell?
    These facts are critical. What I am saying is that if you, when the discomfort became noticeable, had NOT eaten anything & rested, you would have your appendix now, in good health

    If you soldier on & ignore the pain, & worse, medicate it & drive the fever down with anti-pyrretics, you will be in for a hard landing!!! At this point, after ignoring (& more importantly suppressing) your potentially appendix-saving symptoms, you might need surgery for peritonitis, no doubt.The symptoms would only get worse in this case, until drastic measures are required.

    I have NEVER said I oppose all surgery. Never blamed conspiracies. Never said ALL SBM was bad.

    Believe it or not, most of the bloggers & I have much in common, as Natural Hygienic principles are scientifically based- because such principles are axiomatic, that is, they are self evident:

    The human body is self-developing, self- defending & self repairing!

  317. #317 flip
    January 19, 2012

    Emily, your first paragraph of #310 doesn’t make any sense.

    As for the rest, it’s like you remember your high school biology but then muddle it up with whatever woo you’ve read since then. (Would you mind telling us how you manage to see so many people with whom you ‘help’ with fasting? Is it because you’re really actually a CAM practitioner?)

    I see the crux of your argument is “SBM treats the symptoms, not the cause” which is typical CAM bullshit. SBM treats the symptoms *whilst* discovering and treating the causes. Hence getting surgery whilst also providing blood pressure medicine in the meantime, etc.

    Your anecdote about your kids and bed rest simply proves what the others have been saying: that SBM actually recommends, for some situations, exactly that. That you think it’s some sort of undiscovered or hidden treatment plan says a lot about your comprehension skills. And willingness to be open minded and/or change your mind about what you think SBM is.

    ‘Ancient wisdom’, wow you are full of CAM canards. Want to try something a little less obvious for your next trick?

    ‘reverse our biological ages’… I literally laughed out loud at that. Nice to know you’ve discovering the fountain of youth, and yet no other researcher has. You should write up a paper and publish it. You’d win a Nobel prize for it.

    The rest is blah blah anecdote, blah. You have no peer-reviewed papers or other citations (wow, what a surprise, you didn’t post any like you’ve been repeatedly asked to), and instead have confirmation bias and pop-health books.

    Bah, you’re a CAM crank and not particularly coming up with anything unusual in terms of ‘arguments’. And here I was hoping for something a bit more interesting from a germ denier.

  318. #318 LW
    January 19, 2012

    Emily @310:

    “Years ago our 3 kids all had measles, naturally acquired (the “herd” must have let us down),”

    Well, you obviously weren’t doing anything to help the herd out, were you? None of them were vaccinated, so when they were exposed, they got the disease. They all got it. You notice how contagious it is?

    “they had fever, discomfort, prostration, anorexia, light sensitivity & of course the rash.”

    The vast majority of children in Western countries for decades have never experienced those symptoms. That’s because they were protected by vaccination. Likewise, the vast majority never experienced smallpox or polio, and neither will your children. The vast majority have not experienced mumps, rubella, diphtheria, or tetanus, but yours may well get the privilege of experiencing those. I hope they are as sanguine about it as you are.

    “Their symptoms, to us, were reparatory in nature, remedial & defensive. From our point of view, their little bodies were working as designed, producing such symptoms naturally in an effort to re-instigate howmeostasis.”

    Well, yes. If they had been badly burned, their little bodies would have worked as designed to repair the damage and fight off the infectious organisms that would try to move in through the damaged skin. If they were in a major car accident, their little bodies would have worked as designed to repair the damage and knit their bones back together. If they’d been bitten by dogs, fallen off a roof, half-drowned in a swimming pool — see, there are all kinds of situations where their little bodies could work as designed to repair the damage in an effort to re-establish homeostasis.

    Most of us would rather not have the damage in the first place. Which is why we take precautions, like vaccinating.

  319. #319 LW
    January 19, 2012

    Hey, that’s funny.  

    Emily @213: “If germs cause disease why are not my 4 kids sick with flu & other illnesses that their friends have?”

    Emily @310: “Years ago our 3 kids all had measles, naturally acquired”

    But then, bizarrely, “The virus was to us, an accessory after the fact.” Does that mean they were sick first and then the virus moved in?

  320. #320 T-reg
    January 19, 2012

    @Emily: Wow! Salutations to you… with a face-palm.

    I don’t know which century you are living in, but in the present century, quite a lot is known about disease causation, especially regarding infectious diseases.
    Tell me, how do you think the advocates of SBM come up with hypotheses and then theories on disease causation? I think you imagine it to be a council of elders sitting together and dreaming stuff up as to how to pump in more drugs into patients. That, however, is not how things are done in SBM.

    Micro organisms have not only been detected in the lesions of infectious diseases – for most of the infectious diseases, there is a one on one relationship between the micro organism and the disease.
    Also, when the micro organism is isolated from the lesion, grown in the lab and a perfectly healthy mammal is exposed to the organism, a similar illness is produced in the animal and that too, only the exposed animals develop the particular infectious disease. Please tell me that in such experiments, the exposed animal suddenly chooses to have exactly the same bad diet and lifestyle as the humans from which the organism was isolated.

    The characteristics of a disease are not just defined by clinical features. Often, clinical features may vary, but the lesions have characteristic features when observed under the microscope.
    In fact, specific mechanisms as to how the organism causes the disease are also known for many of them.

    You say that the organism follows the disease. So tell me, how do you explain that in case of whooping cough, the organism Bordetella pertussis can be isolated from the respiratory epithelium before the characteristic clinical as well as pathological* features of the disease develop, but not afterwards? In your world, does cause follow the effect? The mechanism by which B. pertussis destroys the respiratory epithelium is also known.

    *destruction of the ciliated epithelial cells.

    Also, how do you explain epidemics of acute infectious diseases? Do hundreds of people all of a sudden develop the effects of their bad life-styles at the same time? How do you explain that such epidemics tend to have a geographical distribution which appears as if the epidemic is fanning out from foci? How is it that contacts of cases get the disease but not those not in contact? How is it that measures to control vectors of infectious agents helps to curb such epidemics?

    Also, how do people recover from these illnesses without changing their diet and lifestyles? Many never even get the same infectious disease ever again without changing their lifestyle and diet.

  321. #321 T-reg
    January 19, 2012

    @LW: Ah you nailed it before me. I was just searching for the post where she mentions that her kids never got the flu.

  322. #322 adelady
    January 19, 2012

    “Does that mean they were sick first and then the virus moved in?”

    I have a sneaking suspicion that that is what it means.

    Oh dear.

  323. #323 Steelclaws
    January 19, 2012

    Emily,

    Perhaps you could answer a few questions about Natural Hygiene then:

    1. What is the mysterious ‘nerve energy’ and how is it detected?
    2. What are the names of the toxins that cause toxemia (in the NH sense, not the real medicine meaning of the term)?
    3. How does Natural Hygiene explain newborns who have neuroblastoma – a type of childhood cancer?
    4. How does Natural Hygiene explain the death of Dennis G. McDaniel while undergoing Natural Hygiene treatment at a Natural Hygiene retreat?
    “Despite heroic attempts to save the life of DENNIS G. McDANIEL by competent health care personnel, Mr. McDANIEL continued to suffer with dehydration, malnutrition, diarrhea, low blood pressure, elevated pulse, and elevated fever, resulting in acute renal failure, acute respiratory distress and cardiac failure. DENNIS G. McDANIEL’s physical condition continued to deteriorate, despite competent efforts to save his life, and he died on September 24, 2005″
    http://www.casewatch.org/civil/vetrano/complaint.shtml

    I really would like answers to these questions.

  324. #324 Steelclaws
    January 19, 2012

    LW,
    What the Natural Hygienists appear to believe is that all diseases are purification crises when “toxemia” (their usage of this term is for something very different from preeclampsia) caused by “enervation” overwhelms the system and the body gets rid of the “toxins” by manifesting a disease.

    It just does not make any sense to me, and displays an almost complete ignorance of how the human body works.

    I also have a few questions for Emily on this subject in moderation.

  325. #325 Todd W.
    January 19, 2012

    @Emily

    Our bodies PRODUCE disease, they don’t resist it!

    Yes, and piles of garbage produce rats and rotting meat produces maggots. I do recommend you try living in the modern era, rather than a century or two ago.

  326. #326 LW
    January 19, 2012

    This is funny too:

    Emily @310: “Disease is the manifestation of life in disadvantaguos circumstances, while health is simply life expressing itself in advantagous or favourable circumstances….Years ago our 3 kids all had measles, naturally acquired”

    So, what did Emily do to her children to make their lives so disadvantageous or unfavorable that they developed measles? That was a pretty rotten thing for her to do, don’t you think?

    Of course, I think what she did was to deny them the measles vaccine (if it was available at the time), but I do wonder what she thinks she did.

  327. #327 Chris
    January 19, 2012

    Emily:

    When you understand the principles & practices of Natural Hygiene, you understand that health & disease is governed by the law of cause & effect. Diseases need causes & when causes are introduced, disease is just as natural as health, but it it is not normal.

    So where are these laws of Natural Hygiene discussed in a PubMed indexed paper? And I put italics on two of your words. Contradict yourself much?

    Our bodies PRODUCE disease, they don’t resist it! You cannot resist something that has no entity, and disease has no entitative existence.

    Earlier you said: “inflammatory cytokines are deactivated, white blood cells de-marginated & near miracles happen.” Do you know how cytokines and leukocytes work. That phrase was a description of what happens with fasting, except I read Shelton managed to kill more than one patient through starvation.

    Eg- Years ago our 3 kids all had measles, naturally acquired (the “herd” must have let us down),

    That is because folks like you are reducing herd immunity. You only have yourself and the rest of your anti-vax friends to thank for that.

    Sadly, most of our children’s friends have had their tonsils out (unnecessarily), their appendix out (ditto above), are on puffers ( ditto)& have regular doses of anti-biotics. How tragic!

    That is odd, because tonsils are very seldom removed these days, and it is very odd for a child to have an appendectomy. Plus, regular doses of antibiotics does not sound right. You have just made and extraordinary claim, I expect you to support it with some kind of survey that those interventions are as common as you say.

  328. #328 Chris
    January 19, 2012

    Emily:

    Let truth be your authority, not authority your truth!

    Oh, good! Does this mean you will be telling why the American morbidity of measles in 1970 was only 10% of what it was in 1960 with the “truth” soon?

    I can’t wait to see what that truth is! Do tell us, and please make sure it is well documented.

  329. #329 TBruce
    January 19, 2012

    The lady who before XMas recovered from severe, unremitting RA, fasted for 21 days ( water-only, as this is the only real fast), recovered because her body had the ability & vitality to heal itself. Heberdens nodes reduced in size

    That’s interesting, especially since Heberden’s nodes are solid bone, and are found in osteoarthritis, not rheumatoid arthritis.

  330. #330 Krebiozen
    January 19, 2012

    Emily,
    How does starving someone in any way remove the causes of RA (or MS or lupus) and restore the conditions of health? Are you suggesting that these diseases are the result of the accumulation of toxins, and that fasting removes those toxins? I ask because you mention detox, and I have come across this idea before. It contradicts a large amount of what we have learned about these diseases. Even if toxins were the cause, and there is no convincing evidence that this is the case, why would fasting remove toxins from the body? We have a liver and kidneys that are extremely efficient at removing toxic substances from our bodies.

    I spent many years working in labs that did hundreds of renal and liver function tests every day, including many people with RA, MS and lupus. Their renal and liver function was generally normal, with no sign that their kidneys and livers were having problems excreting anything. If those with these diseases have livers and kidneys that are unable to remove mysterious toxins when they are working well, why would they be able to remove them when the body is stressed by starvation? Ketosis caused by starvation may actually damage the liver.

    You were lucky with your children when they got measles. A significant minority of children with measles develop complications like pneumonia or encephalitis that can have permanent sequelae, like death. Would you have interpreted pneumonia or encephalitis as “their little bodies… working as designed, producing such symptoms naturally in an effort to re-instigate homeostasis”? I have to wonder at what point you would have called an ambulance. “Again, woo becomes wow” – not really, the odds of a really serious complication of measles are about 1 in 500, nothing to do with fasting or natural hygiene. Taking such risks with your children’s lives and health when there is an extremely safe vaccine available seems irrational to me, not something to be proud of at all.

    I am unconvinced by your tales of successfully treating RA and MS. Your account is perfectly compatible with what we know of the unpredictable courses of these diseases.

    You report that your lady with “severe, unremitting RA” also had Heberdens nodes, which are a sign of osteoarthritis, not RA, as TBruce points out. Maybe she had both, or was misdiagnosed and on the wrong medication (is this the same lady who was on methotrexate for 19 years?) – that’s the trouble with anecdotes, you don’t know what variables might be responsible for your observations. “ALL pain went from the involved joints in the hands & elbows, & dexterity returned 90%. Even her rheumatologist was stunned.” There is some evidence that fasting can temporarily reduce inflammation in RA by reducing interleukin levels, but fasting also has adverse effects due to increases in reactive oxygen species and oxidative damage. In the absence of any studies showing long-term benefits of fasting in RA, count me unimpressed. “This was not a cycle of remission/exacerbation as she had had no remissions.” Well she has certainly had one remission, which may or may not have had anything to do with her fast.

    One lady with MS did 31 days, & went back to her neurologist with no need of interferon injections. She has maintained that for 6 years now.

    This sounds like exactly what you would expect in the relapsing-remitting subtype of MS. By the way, after 31 days of subsisting on only water you would expect sustained ketosis, probable hypokalemia and hyponatremia, probably some muscle wasting and a significant risk of kidney damage from rhabdomyolysis. Sudden death in prolonged fasting is not uncommon.

    Does everyone respond so well? No!

    Why not?

    Do they all improve? Yes. Can most get off their med’s? Yes.

    Regression to the mean and placebo effect?

    Can they go backwards at times?

    Of course, but that’s their fault, right?

    Most certainly, especially if they re-introduce the causes of disease again.

    Thought so. What was the cause of RA, MS and lupus again?

    I have witnessed so many of these over the years for all sorts of illnesses, not just auto-immune conditions.

    Regression to the mean, placebo effects and confirmation bias?

    I know you will scream “anecdotal”, & you are right.

    Perhaps you don’t quite understand what that means? It means that you may well have fooled yourself into believing that a therapy that does more harm than good is helping people. I have known a number of people with RA, MS and lupus over the years who have lurched from one alternative treatment to another (including fasting and other dietary approaches), their faith in each treatment lasting about as long as their normal cycles of remission and exacerbation. Each of the alternative practitioners they saw had as much faith in their therapy as you do in yours.

    The example I like to give is bloodletting, which was popular for thousands of years, and was believed by intelligent, capable people (Benjamin Rush for example) to be an excellent and life-saving treatment for a wide variety of illnesses. When subjected to crude clinical trials bloodletting was found to result in a ten-fold increase in mortality, though even in the face of this evidence some refused to believe it made things worse. The practitioners of bloodletting who had such faith in its efficacy had been fooling themselves, just as I believe you have been fooling yourself over the efficacy of natural hygiene.

  331. #331 Matthew Cline
    January 19, 2012

    I think what Emily is claiming is something like: being vulnerable to infection is a “symptom” of not being in perfect health, and becoming infected is a logical consequence of being vulnerable to infection.

  332. #332 Calli Arcale
    January 19, 2012

    Most of Emily’s children’s friends have had their appendices out? Wow! I wonder what accounts for such a staggering rate of appendicitis. That would seem to be pretty damn unusual. Same for the high rates of tonsillectomy and routine antibiotics, though I’d guess that if things are so crazy that all the kids are coming down with appendicitis and I were a doctor there, I’d probably be freaking out about infectious bacteria too.

  333. #333 Narad
    January 19, 2012

    You cannot resist something that has no entity, and disease has no entitative existence.

    Why do I get the feeling that Emily could also go on about Royal Rife?

  334. #334 missmayinga
    January 19, 2012

    I think what Emily is claiming is something like: being vulnerable to infection is a “symptom” of not being in perfect health, and becoming infected is a logical consequence of being vulnerable to infection.
    In other words, it’s your own damn fault for not being as enlightened as her. I don’t suppose it ever occured to her that, even if it did work, fasting on fruit and water isn’t exactly a viable tactic for everyone in the world?

  335. #335 Narad
    January 19, 2012

    I think what Emily is claiming is something like: being vulnerable to infection is a “symptom” of not being in perfect health, and becoming infected is a logical consequence of being vulnerable to infection.

    Natural Hygiene has a somewhat peculiar notion of “infection.” Let’s go straight to the horse’s ass mouth:

    The idea of specific infection has no place in a rational philosophy of cause. So-called specific infection is septic infection. Sepsis is the only infecting agent in all the so-called specific diseases. Sepsis arises from decomposition. All secretions, excretions and exudations are non-toxic until they decompose, whereupon they become toxic.

    Shelton rambles on in this fashion for some time (“An Introduction to Natural Hygiene”) before mentioning in passing that having a reaction to poison ivy is also “infection.”

  336. #336 Anton P. Nym
    January 19, 2012

    Dear Cleo, er, Emily;

    Stop cribbing from Bechamp. He lost to Pasteur fair and square nearly two hundred years ago… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_B%C3%A9champ It’s time to let go. Sheesh.

    Sincerely,

    — Steve

  337. #337 Narad
    January 19, 2012

    Oh, and Emily, how many deaths caused by water-fasting has Vivian Vetrano been in on, anyway? There’s at least William Carlton and Dennis McDaniel, but it seems like Shelton’s Health School had more of these little oopsies while she was there.

  338. #338 Beamup
    January 19, 2012

    I have to say, I fear for the lives of anyone who relies on Emily for health care advice or support. Treating appendicitis with fasting is all too likely to be lethal.

    I suspect murder convictions lie in her future, unless she’s lying about her activities in order to sound like an “expert.”

  339. #339 TBruce
    January 19, 2012

    Shelton rambles on in this fashion for some time (“An Introduction to Natural Hygiene”) before mentioning in passing that having a reaction to poison ivy is also “infection.”

    OMG! Have we discovered Th1Th2’s secret identity?

  340. #340 Th1Th2
    January 19, 2012

    OMG! Have we discovered Th1Th2’s secret identity?

    No but yours is prominent.

    “being called an infection-promoter by Th1Th2″

    Frankly, I would consider that an honour.
    Posted by: TBruce | May 30, 2011 5:14 PM

  341. #341 TBruce
    January 19, 2012

    I still do, SB&I Troll, I still do.

  342. #342 herr doktor bimler
    January 19, 2012

    Emily:
    “why are not my 4 kids sick with flu & other illnesses that their friends have?”
    “Years ago our 3 kids all had measles, naturally acquired”

    I’m not holding out much hope for truth-based arguments from someone who can’t keep straight how many kids she has.

  343. #343 Beamup
    January 19, 2012

    One presumes that since the measles was “years ago,” child #4 could have been born more recently. I don’t think we have cause to conclude that Emily can’t keep her kids straight.

  344. #344 Emily
    January 19, 2012

    To T reg @ 318:

    “Micro organisms have not only been detected in the lesions of infectious diseases – for most of the infectious diseases, there is a one on one relationship between the micro organism and the disease”.

    Please come out of your laboratory into the real world, which is teeming with microorganisms. Your above quote is errant nonsense in the real world.Please explain why my family of three (3) children (it was a typo), ,& others, with no vacccine, living right next door to influenza- soaked people, talking to them in their house, have not become ill? Why so? If there is a one on one relationship between the m/o & the disease, what has happened in this situation?

    Two years ago on a show called What’s Good For you? they set out to prove how “contagious ” the flu virus was. They deliberately exposed healthy people( by putting pus & sputum from infected & sick people into thier nasal & oral cavities, believe it or not)& waited. The problem for the germ phobic researchers was that too many of the healthy people remained so. Asked why, they said, they were probably immune. I loved that. Talk about a circular argument.

    Virulence is not a real world term, it is a laboratory term. Lab’s are not the real world! It is a fact that the environment influences the microorganism, more than the m/o influences the environment. That’s why they mutate!

    You seem to have missed my earlier point in a prievious blog – germs are not THE cause. The cause means no other factors are needed. M/O exist no doubt & play an associative role in many illnesses, but they are not THE cause. I ask again, why doesn’t my family ( & untold others)CATCH the flu?
    In Canberra University, Australia, Professor Peter Collignon, Assoc Prof. of Infectious Diseases even stated publicly during the swine flu scare mongering 2 years ago, that the best way of getting swine flu was to get the swine flu jab!!!!

    And for Krebiozen who stated that fasting for 31 days was dangerous. Please do more study & research on this subject, it possibly might save your life one day.

  345. #345 Narad
    January 19, 2012

    Two years ago on a show called What’s Good For you? they set out to prove how “contagious ” the flu virus was. They deliberately exposed healthy people( by putting pus & sputum from infected & sick people into thier nasal & oral cavities, believe it or not)& waited.

    Ah, yes, the well-known and readily obtainable “flu pus.”

  346. #346 Krebiozen
    January 19, 2012

    And for Krebiozen who stated that fasting for 31 days was dangerous. Please do more study & research on this subject, it possibly might save your life one day.

    I suggest you do some more research on this, it might prevent you from being responsible for someone’s death some day.

    Here’s some further reading for you.

    Fasting causes blood sugar to drop. This leads to a breakdown (catabolism) of muscle and other protein tissue for energy. During fasting, catabolism is a kind of “self-cannibalism” the by-products of which (ammonia and urea) lead to acidosis that produces weakness, fatigue, irritability, depression, depressed libido, and a sick feeling. Fasting does not cleanse the system, but loads it with metabolic toxins while decreasing its ability to destroy and excrete these. Fasting leads to rapid loss of water, sodium, and potassium. This decreases blood volume which produces postural hypotension (low blood pressure when standing up), and fainting. Severe potassium depletion can cause a fatal heart rhythm disturbance. The body cannot differentiate between voluntary fasting and starvation and deaths have occurred even with medically supervised fasts and near-fasts. People who survive prolonged fasts (starvation) may suffer anemia, decreased immunity, osteoporosis, kidney damage, or liver damage. Depressed gastrointestinal or digestive functions may persist for weeks or months [v]. The worst thing about fasting is its destruction of lean and vital tissue needed for a healthy and active life. Fasting, like colonic irrigation, laxatives, sweat baths, and other naturopathic regimes are at best useless, and at worst, can be fatal. Fasting is particularly dangerous for children.

  347. #347 Dangerous Bacon
    January 19, 2012

    Sorry, I’ve been away. Did I miss emily telling us what type of “health” practitioner she is and who the unfortunates patients are that she sees?

    emily: “I have seen numerous people with acute appendicitis fast (water-only) back to health with no drugs or surgery required.

    I know what I know.I have piloted many of these people personally.”

    What sort of Health Titanic does emily pilot?

    Truly, it would be instructive to see emily and other modern-day germ theory denialists prove their views once and for all by volunteering to be inoculated with HIV, hepatitis C, Ebola virus and other harmless microorganisms which could not possibly initiate disease on their own in such sturdy folk. I look forward to seeing the study results published in Medical Hypotheses.

  348. #348 lilady
    January 19, 2012

    @ Emily “We were not concerned one little bit about *what serotype of measles virus was involved* or how we could lower their temp’s with med’s. The virus was to us, an accessory after the fact.”

    Wow Emily, I am in awe of your superior research skills. I suggest that you publish your research findings…perhaps the new “serotype of measles” will be named after you..ie Rubeola emilyia.

    The naming of the Lyme disease bacterium (Borrelia burgdorferi) and the naming of a shigella bacterium (Shigella flexneri) were “honors” bestowed on Willy Burdorfer and Simon Flexner.

    * On the planet earth there is only measles serotype.

  349. #349 TBruce
    January 19, 2012

    No doubt “What’s Good For You?” is indexed in PubMed.
    I expect further citations of this type, perhaps to Tosh.O or Jackass.

    All joking aside, you’re saying nothing surprising when you insist that not everyone exposed to the flu virus gets the flu. Individual susceptibility varies for many reasons. However, if you don’t believe that viruses cause disease, I suggest another TV-worthy experiment – get a transfusion of a unit of Hepatitis C infected blood. I’m sure someone as healthy as you would have no problem with that.

  350. #350 Narad
    January 19, 2012

    You seem to have missed my earlier point in a prievious blog – germs are not THE cause. The cause means no other factors are needed. M/O exist no doubt & play an associative role in many illnesses, but they are not THE cause.

    Perhaps you’d just like to make clear whether “M/O” are “A cause,” because repeating “THE cause” would be kind of dishonest if they weren’t.

  351. #351 Narad
    January 19, 2012

    I suggest another TV-worthy experiment – get a transfusion of a unit of Hepatitis C infected blood. I’m sure someone as healthy as you would have no problem with that.

    That could be written off as importing someone else’s Sheltonian “pus.” Better trial design is needed.

  352. #352 Chris
    January 20, 2012

    Oh, no! There is no Emily to tell us all about the “truth” according to Natural Hygiene on how in the USA measles morbidity declined by 90% between 1960 and 1970. Rats.

  353. #353 flip
    January 20, 2012

    Emily’s comments make me wonder: I had chicken pox as a kid (despite being vaccinated), but eat far worse now, less exercise and don’t fast…. why did I get chicken pox when I was healthier, but not now when I’m an adult and worse off phsyically?

    My guess is that her argument will boil down to a typical positive-thinking CAM thing of “you’re just not doing it right” or “negative energy affects the outcome”. Blah blah blah victim blaming, blah blah no proof.

    I feel so sorry for your kids Emily. How many times will you starve them ‘for their own good’? And while they’re dealing with an illness too?

    #342, Emily

    Hilarious. According to you, microorganisms do not live in laboratories, only outside in the ‘real world’. *Roll eyes* Please explain how the scientists keep microorganisms from entering the labs.

    In Canberra University, Australia, Professor Peter Collignon, Assoc Prof. of Infectious Diseases even stated publicly during the swine flu scare mongering 2 years ago, that the best way of getting swine flu was to get the swine flu jab!!!!

    I live in Australia. We were one of the first countries to have people DIE from getting the flu before a vaccine could be created. Most of the people who all got sick (some of whom died) were the ones who did not have the vaccine. Once the vaccine was administered to a large group of people, very few people from then on got the flu. How do you account for that? Oh yes, you only believe the stuff posted by CAM proponents. You’re full of crap and misinformation.

    And for Krebiozen who stated that fasting for 31 days was dangerous. Please do more study & research on this subject, it possibly might save your life one day.

    If fasting is so good for us, why do we need to eat at all? Why do we need to eat daily? Why does the human race not just all suddenly decide that they’re not hungry after all and only eat once a week?

  354. #354 Thomas
    January 21, 2012

    “If fasting is so good for us, why do we need to eat at all? Why do we need to eat daily? Why does the human race not just all suddenly decide that they’re not hungry after all and only eat once a week?”

    In Emily’s universe, the starved prisoners in Germany’s and Japan’s prison camps gained superhuman powers from their lack of food, and thus were able to easily overcome their captors who suffered from the debilitating effects of daily eating…

  355. #355 herr doktor bimler
    January 21, 2012

    In Canberra University, Australia, Professor Peter Collignon, Assoc Prof. of Infectious Diseases even stated publicly during the swine flu scare mongering 2 years ago, that the best way of getting swine flu was to get the swine flu jab!!!!

    I would find that quote easier to believe if Prof. Collignon actually teaches at the University of Canberra. Someone who can’t get his university right is not my source of choice.

  356. #356 Emily
    January 22, 2012

    re Flip @ 351

    Nonsense like that should not be dignified with an intelligent reply.

  357. #357 Chris
    January 22, 2012

    Emily:

    Nonsense like that should not be dignified with an intelligent reply.

    Perhaps you could demonstrate an intelligent reply to my question. Surely you’ve had enough time to do your research.

    Exactly how did the rate of measles incidence in the USA drop by 90% between 1960 and 1970? Be sure that your answer is well documented.

  358. #358 lilady
    January 22, 2012

    @ Emily: After you answer Chris’ question…I’m interested in the different “serotype” of measles virus you referred to.

  359. #359 herr doktor bimler
    January 22, 2012

    We await with bated breath, all agog to see what Emily will dignify with an intelligent reply.

  360. #360 novalox
    January 22, 2012

    @herr doktor bimler

    Judging from emily’s non-response and general idiocy in her comments, we’ll be waiting for a long time.

  361. #361 alison
    January 22, 2012

    OK, Emily, we’ll accapt that the number of children was a typo. Now, how do you square your statement that they never get sick with your later statement that they all came down with the measles? Oh, & we’re still waiting for an explanation of why so many of them have apparently had tonsils & appendices removed, when the first procedure is rare these days & the second isn’t exactly routine.

  362. #362 alison
    January 22, 2012

    Sorry, the ‘them’ in my previous comment was intended to mean, Emily’s neighbour’s children, not,hers. (Note to self, ‘preview’ is your friend…)

  363. #363 Emily
    January 22, 2012

    1)@lilady 356: My serotype comment last week was obviously unsuccessful, because it was meant to highlight, in a slightly humorous way, that we are not concerned with the profile of any paticular virus. Similarly, does it really matter if the hemaglutenin & neuraminidase enzymes are 1 or 21 when helping limit the damage of influenza. We need to lift our level of health, not artificially lift our antibodies.

    2) @ alison 359: If you read my previous posts correctly, you’ll see that our kids do get sick (very rarely), but never with the flu, despite living next to an influenza colony. And if you were interested, which you probably weren’t, you would have seen that I continually emphasise the 3 principles which are axiomatic in the biology of health & disease:
    * the body is self-developing;
    * the body is self-repairing;
    * the body is self defending.

    Neither allopathic voo or alt/med woo is needed MOST of the time, provided causes are removed & the conditions of health supplied.

    Disease is just as natural as health, & is represented by symptoms & signs which themselves are reparatory in nature. They have survival value, just the same as fever. They are not to be suppressed as allopathic medicine does most of the time, but understood as “allies in disguise”. BTW, I am NOT advocating “watchful waiting”, which is a medical nonsense!

    It so happens that where I live there is still a fairly high rate of unnecessary “cashectomies” on children (* & adults- cholecystectomies, thyroidectiomies, apendecectomies etc). Tragic!

    @ Chris 355, my long suffering antagonist. You don’t seem to get it. I’m not impressed with the one fact that measles (or any illness) declined in a given time IF the only intervention was a drug or a vaccine. I can get rid of headaches with aspirin, or heavier pain killers, & there would obviously be no more measles, I mean headaches. I need to address the REAL causes. I would ask lots of other questions about the period 1960-1970 when measles morbidity declined. How many more middle ear infections were there at this time, tonsillitis cases, bronchitis cases, asthma, allergies etc?

    It is a downright tragedy that the American people are being duped by big pharma’s seduction of medicine into believing that for every ill there is a pill (or a vaccine). Health comes about through healthy living, & if any of the sceptics out there in the Church of Modern Medicine are really interested in this subject, please let me know & we discuss this reasonably & intelligently.

  364. #364 LW
    January 22, 2012

    Possibly Emily is unaware of what tonsillectomy and appendectomy actually are, and believes they routinely performed in well-baby visits?

  365. #365 flip
    January 22, 2012

    @352 Thomas

    Good point, I hadn’t thought of that.

    @354 Emily

    Perhaps you’d care to point out which bit was nonsense and refute it like a grown up: with citations and data.

    Here’s a link for you:

    2009 Flu pandemic in Australia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic_in_Australia

    It’s wikipedia, but if you google for ‘swine flu deaths australia’, you’ll find a number of online news reports. First sentence of Wikipedia, “As of 21 October 2009, Australia has 36,991 confirmed cases of H1N1 Influenza 09 (Human Swine Influenza) and 186 confirmed deaths due to the disease”. There’s more info about how they controlled the flu as well, under “measures to control an outbreak”, which details the use of vaccines (and good hygiene). The article seems out of date, so googling is probably a good idea as well.

    You could try refuting/discussing that, or you could answer my question about fasting. Pick something and discuss it properly; or else I’ll just assume you have no facts. My questions are legitimate, how is it nonsense to ask them? And my facts are legitimate, so how can it be nonsense to post them?

    I honestly don’t understand how fasting would make things better, so enlighten me. That’s why you came here remember, to point us in the right direction?

  366. #366 flip
    January 22, 2012

    I have a comment in moderation, but in the meantime:

    Emily, just answer Chris. Dancing around it is just making you look like you’re unwilling to discuss tough topics.

    Also, what were the ‘real causes’ of measles?

    Health comes about through healthy living, & if any of the sceptics out there in the Church of Modern Medicine are really interested in this subject, please let me know & we discuss this reasonably & intelligently.

    I’d like to, but you just told me you won’t dignify me with an answer. I’d love to know what proof you have that microorganisms just ‘stay away’ if I eat right. (Sorry, eat occasionally) I await your reasonable and intelligent reply – with citations please.

  367. #367 TBruce
    January 22, 2012

    if any of the sceptics out there in the Church of Modern Medicine are really interested in this subject, please let me know & we discuss this reasonably & intelligently.

    Reasonably and intelligently? Who will be representing you in the discussion?

    (Sorry, cheap shot, but I couldn’t resist)

  368. #368 Chris
    January 22, 2012

    Emily:

    @ Chris 355, my long suffering antagonist. You don’t seem to get it. I’m not impressed with the one fact that measles (or any illness) declined in a given time IF the only intervention was a drug or a vaccine…snip..I would ask lots of other questions about the period 1960-1970 when measles morbidity declined. How many more middle ear infections were there at this time, tonsillitis cases, bronchitis cases, asthma, allergies etc?

    Just answer the question as it was asked. Though, I must admit, the contortions you are going through to avoid answering that very simple question are very amusing. You are definitely working hard to avoid giving an answer that would knock your whole dubious reality off its precarious perch.

  369. #369 lilady
    January 22, 2012

    @ Emily: I nailed you on your (non) knowledge of measles…you are now claiming it as a humorous comment.

    “It so happens that where I live there is still a fairly high rate of unnecessary “cashectomies” on children (* & adults-*cholecystectomies*, **thyroidectiomies**, ***apendecectomies*** etc).
    Tragic!”

    Emily, try looking up:

    *Gangrenous Gall Bladder

    **Graves Disease, Thyroid Cancer

    ***Peritonitis

    Please also provide information how the body heals “naturally” from gall bladder disease, Graves disease, thyroid cancer and a diseased appendix.

  370. #370 Denice Walter
    January 22, 2012

    @ Emily:

    Are people really “being duped by big pharma’s seduction of medicine into believing that for every ill there is a pill (or a vaccine)” or is it possible that pharmaceutical companies – being businesses who seek profit- are responding to popular demand for products? There is a *market* for these drugs. Was AZT developed to *harm* folks who were HIV+ or because there was demand- and patients were willing to take risks because of their own dire situations *without* drugs? Similarly, Vioxx for severe arthriitis.

    Alt med providers often talk about the medical establishment “inventing illnesses” ( esp. in the realm of mental illness/learning disability) but is this not also a response to patient demand for assistance with symptoms that compromise their/their children’s quality of life?

  371. #371 Chris
    January 22, 2012

    Yesterday at ShotofProtection, Steve Michaels was whining about me be not asking about mortality because that has more variable associated with it. He is very upset with me, and he and someone else think it that calling me a meanie is a logical way to discuss the question.

    Except I am not the one ignoring the costs of hospitalizations and rates of post-disease disability. It is not that I am forgetting about deaths, they are just ignoring the whole picture.

    I have that question for a while. I have chosen it because I noticed places like childhealthsafety try to cloud the issue by focusing on deaths, and stretching the timeline back a century or more. They also try to muck up the data by including countries where the counting is not so clear (like Canada skipping a few years of case tabulation, and countries that did not start vaccinating until later). Then there was the ones who try to change the decade.

    I actually started to use the census data because “backer” whined about only using data from 1950. He found more excuses when I destroyed that bit, plus complained about the use of “incidence” versus “deaths.” Oh, if you search that blog for “backer” and that data, you’ll see I asked him more than once. He never answered.

    And neither has John Stone or “childhealthsafety.” My favorite comment (and I think it was on this blog) was John Stone telling us it would be better to treat measles rather than prevent it. Unfortunately, I cannot find it quickly.

    So yes, Emily, that is a very specific question. So either answer it or just say “I don’t know.” Stop trying to claim you have superior knowledge when your closed mind refused to find an answer that takes most of us less than five minutes.

  372. #372 Agashem
    January 22, 2012

    As someone has already pointed out, Natural Health (eek, is there UNnatural health?) how do you explain childhood illnesses? And how would you treat them? I am currently involved with a very young child (under 18 months) with severe second degree burns over her entire left leg. I guess in Emily’s world, she should be starved to heal the leg properly. Nice.

  373. #373 Chris
    January 22, 2012

    Just a reminder of what Emily’s first comment started with:

    Let the truth be known. Vaccinations had very little, if anything, to do with the decline in infectious diseases over the past 100 years.

    So she actually noted incidence, so she needs to prove her claim. And I am being nice, I am only asking for that proof for one disease.

    So, Emily, stop making excuses. Explain how measles declined by 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA. Show us the actual documentation.

  374. #374 augustine
    January 22, 2012

    Explain how measles declined by 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA. Show us the actual documentation.

    But, Chris, what about the people who aren’t afraid of the incidence of a moderate disease of childhood? What about the people who are concerned more with mortality or permanent sequelae?

    Could you tell us how measles vaccines drastically reduced mortality between 1900-1950 so as to dwarf the number from the 1960’s forward?

    Are vaccines totally necessary for every single person? Absolutely not. For any scientist to say so would be dishonest.

    The data shows that only a small minority would need a vaccine to possibly, maybe, potentially prevent death.

    The philosophy says give it to all. The science doesn’t.

    Science taught men how to build an atomic bomb. Philosophy told them to drop it on the Japanese civilians.

    Many people don’t share your philosophy. You forcing your belief system down peoples throats using government policy and politics through puppet science doesn’t endear you to your adversaries.

  375. #375 alison
    January 22, 2012

    Disease is just as natural as health, & is represented by symptoms & signs which themselves are reparatory in nature.
    I look forward to Emily’s explanation of the ‘reparatory’ nature of a ruptured appendix…

  376. #376 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    January 22, 2012

    Augustine,

    The data shows that only a small minority would need a vaccine to possibly, maybe, potentially prevent death.

    I’m not sure I understand that statement. As I read it, your logic is that if only 2 children out of a thousand die (statistically) if they get the measles, then if we merely immunized those children we wouldn’t need to immunize anyone else. If that understanding is correct, then we need to know how you identify which 2 out of a thousand children will die.
    According to the WHO, between 83% and 94% of the population needs to be immunized for measles in order to limit its spread. Do you disagree with these numbers, and if so, why? If you agree, how do you reconcile that with your statement above?

  377. #377 dedicated lurker
    January 22, 2012

    But, Chris, what about the people who aren’t afraid of the incidence of a moderate disease of childhood?

    Once again, augie, I’ll ask you why you’re so frightened of a vaccine as opposed to a disease.

  378. #378 Narad
    January 22, 2012

    But, Chris, what about the people who aren’t afraid of the incidence of a moderate disease of childhood?

    Unfortunately, this isn’t where Natural Hygiene is coming from, so this cry for attention is apropos of nothing.

  379. #379 Emily
    January 22, 2012

    To Flip @ 351

    “Hilarious. According to you, microorganisms do not live in laboratories, only outside in the ‘real world’. *Roll eyes* Please explain how the scientists keep microorganisms from entering the labs”.

    I never said m/o don’t live in labs, I said virulence has more relevance as a labarotory term, than in the natural setting.

    “I live in Australia. We were one of the first countries to have people DIE from getting the flu before a vaccine could be created. Most of the people who all got sick (some of whom died) were the ones who did not have the vaccine. Once the vaccine was administered to a large group of people, very few people from then on got the flu. How do you account for that? Oh yes, you only believe the stuff posted by CAM proponents. You’re full of crap and misinformation”.

    Professor Peter Collignon, Associative Professor of Infectious Diseases in your own country, stated during the swine flu ‘fiasco’ that the people getting the vaccine were more likely to get the flu. It created quite a stir in Australia, but was typically dulled down by the medical PR machine.

    Most people in Australia rejected the swine flu propaganda! The Government wasted millions of dollars stockpiling H1N1 vaccine & the majority of people were not stupid enough to fall for it. The uptake rate was, medically, very disapointing.It seemed for once there had been an outbreak of common sense.

    They even had to “pull” the recommendations for the vaccine for babies because, in Western Australia, there were so many severe reactions to it. The reactions were fever, which is the body working as designed, but what were the recommendations then? Lower the fever!! What insanity!Here was the little baby’s body defending itself against a toxic insult, including thimerosal (mercury), by elevating its temperature, & the supposed experts, who caused the problem in the first place, then dumming down the baby’s innate & natural physiological response with more drugs.

    The swine flu fiasco was regarded by most Aussies, even those FOR vaccinations, as completely over the top, & they answered the medical call by non-compliance. Go Aussies! You have more sense than the yanks.

    One of the greatest mistakes (especially during any so-called pandemic)is to suppress the symptoms. And this is exactly what Government health advice ( obviously driven by doctors) recommended: Take anti- pyrretics & tamiflu- your body is useless, it is not self defending,the flu bug is out there & will jump on you & possibly kill you.

    What a lack of faith in the the human body’s self-healing capacities.

    Why did the recovery rate of people with influenza in parts of the States shock even the Surgeon-General in 1918-19 when the poor wretches were housed in tents & fed water & fruit only, as drug supplies were exhausted?

    ” And from the first the results were startling… fresh air, sunshine, a fruit & water diet were daily producing miraculous results, & for many with severe pneumonia. For the first time since the epidemic began there was hope that the unknown virus might yet be defeated with nature’s own weapons.” (Plague of the Spanish Lady pp78-9). This book was a social history of the Spanish Flu, not a health treatise .

    “If fasting is so good for us, why do we need to eat at all? Why do we need to eat daily? Why does the human race not just all suddenly decide that they’re not hungry after all and only eat once a week”?

    Please don’t ask inane questions like this. By your logic, if sleeping is so good for us, you would ask, why not sleep all day. If sex is so good for us, why not copulate all day & night?

    I have seen literally thousands of people recover from serious health problems through fasting. Fasting allows the body the rest & energy to potentiate its own healing. That’s why when we are acutely sick we experience anorexia. Our bodies naturally curtail the hunger mechanism to potentiate healing. This is not woo or voo, this is basic physiology. Our bodies are intelligently designed (woooo there, I hear you say, show me the data on PubMed).

    I won’t go into the biochemistry of fasting through time constraints but would dirct you to http://www.healthpromoting.com ( Dr Peter Sultana & Dr Michael Klaper- yes real ones) or read Fasting & eating for Health by dr Joel Fuhrman (another real one).

    Do yourself a favour Flip & investigate this line of inquiry with an open mind, not a sceptic’s mind. It could prove life saving, no exaggeration.

  380. #380 Narad
    January 22, 2012

    But please don’t say this aloud as it might cause hysteria amongst the medical sycophants: the human body is self-developing, self repairing & self-defending!

    Perhaps it would be illuminating to reflect on the rest of the passage that Emily is lifting from:

    The whole matter may be properly summarized as follows:–

    1–Life is the creative force, functioning in the body. In health it functions smoothly and silently. When its function is obstructed, it struggles to save the body by conquering the obstructing object or condition. This struggle is termed disease and named according to location of symptoms. There is no such thing as disease per se.

    2–The continuous and harmonious existence of the body depends upon strict compliance with the Law of Life written in every particle of its structure.

    3–The body is created complete and perfect, wanting in nothing, and incapable of receiving anything from human hands. It is self-operating, self-regulating, self-repairing, self-preserving, and self-curing.

    4–All the healing power in the Universe is within the body.

    5–No power, force, substance, or thing is able to save the body or serve the healing power within, further than to remove the obstruction responsible for its disturbed equilibrium.

    6–The life of the flesh is in the blood. The life of all flesh is the blood thereof (Lev. 17:11,14).

    7.–Insofar as the blood remains active and normal, and to that degree only, will and must all organs, tissues, and cells remain healthy and normal.

    And thus, poof! When these truths be known, the Church of Modern Medicine shall wither away.

  381. #381 ken
    January 22, 2012

    Emily is a fanatic.
    You will never convince her.
    Water fasts for the seriously ill are dangerous.

  382. #382 augustine
    January 22, 2012

    Once again, augie, I’ll ask you why you’re so frightened of a vaccine as opposed to a disease.

    Who said I was afraid of vaccines? I don’t need a vaccine.

  383. #383 Antaeus Feldspar
    January 22, 2012
    Explain how measles declined by 90% between 1960 and 1970 in the USA. Show us the actual documentation.

    But, Chris, what about the people who aren’t afraid of the incidence of a moderate disease of childhood? What about the people who are concerned more with mortality or permanent sequelae?

    The chances of mortality and/or permanent sequelae are far higher with the disease than with the vaccine. Ugh-troll knows this but likes playing stupid.

    Could you tell us how measles vaccines drastically reduced mortality between 1900-1950 so as to dwarf the number from the 1960’s forward?

    Could you tell us what Abraham Lincoln did to win the American Revolution? Oh, Lincoln didn’t have any role in the Revolution?? Then I guess nothing he did was of any value whatever. That’s what passes for logic in Ugh-Town.

    Are vaccines totally necessary for every single person? Absolutely not. For any scientist to say so would be dishonest.

    The data shows that only a small minority would need a vaccine to possibly, maybe, potentially prevent death.

    Why does this moron bother? By the same logic, we should get rid of ambulances, because only a small minority of people will need ambulance transport to possibly, maybe, potentially prevent death, and for most people they won’t turn out to be “totally necessary.” But because we can’t know beforehand which people will be in that “small minority” and have that safety precaution in place for just them, we make sure it’s in place for everyone who might need it.

    It’s the same principle with vaccines: we don’t know who is going to get a tetanus infection from a puncture wound; we don’t know who’s going to be at the picnic when the measles carrier sneezes; we don’t know who will cross paths with the person contagious with H1N1. What we do know is that reasoning “Oh, the chance of any one individual needing this protection is low; therefore, each individual should forgo this protection” will lead to no one getting protected, and plenty of people experiencing death and maiming. For no good reason than to feed Ugh-troll’s egotistic delusions. Ugh.

  384. #384 attack_laurel
    January 22, 2012

    I’m still stuck on the fact that Emily starved her children while they were ill from the measles. That is truly horrifically cruel.

  385. #385 Chris
    January 22, 2012

    Well, she seems to be proud that they suffered:

    Eg- Years ago our 3 kids all had measles, naturally acquired (the “herd” must have let us down), they had fever, discomfort, prostration, anorexia, light sensitivity & of course the rash.

    Most parents usually protect their children from fever, discomfort, anorexia, light sensitivity and rash.

  386. #386 Emily
    January 22, 2012

    Attack_laurel @377

    Where did you get that idea that I starved anyone, let alone my 3 children? Why would you make that up, Laurel? Are you a mother too? Please don’t say such hideous things. FYI, my kids went off their food of their own volition for 24 hours, as they were not well.

    Is this forcefully starving someone? Even one of our friends, who is a medical doctor, concurred that to force them to eat against their true hunger would be unwise.

    Are you saying I should have forced their mouths open & stuffed them full of food? Who is the dangerous one now? Forcing anyone to eat when they are anorexic is dangerous!

    As soon as their fevers broke & they regained their hunger, they ate. If someone misses a meal, that is in essence a fast, albeit short. That’s why the morning meal is called break fast.

    Please refrain from taking this discussion to areas that you imagine.

  387. #387 alison
    January 22, 2012

    Emily, given that you have advocated prolonged fasting as a ‘cure’ for a range of illnesses, the assumption that you’ve applied this technique to your own children’s illnesses is probably a reasonable one.

    Incidentally you seem to be using the term ‘anorexic’ rather loosely. Most people would take this to mean anorexia nervosa, which is distinctly different from someone skipping a meal or two or not eating because they feel unwell, and can itself be dangerous & life-threatening. It’s certainly not ‘reparatory’!

  388. #388 lilady
    January 22, 2012

    Emily: When you make statements like this:

    “It so happens that where I live there is still a fairly high rate of unnecessary “cashectomies” on children (* & adults-*cholecystectomies*, **thyroidectiomies**, ***apendecectomies*** etc). Tragic!”

    And then I reply like this:

    Emily, try looking up:

    *Gangrenous Gall Bladder

    **Graves Disease, Thyroid Cancer

    ***Peritonitis…..

    It makes me wonder why you are not replying to my statements. It also makes me wonder what bullsh** you are dishing out to the people “you pilot through” illnesses.

  389. #389 Matthew Cline
    January 22, 2012

    @Emily:

    I would ask lots of other questions about the period 1960-1970 when measles morbidity declined. How many more middle ear infections were there at this time, tonsillitis cases, bronchitis cases, asthma, allergies etc?

    When you say this, are you implying:

    1) The measles vaccine suppresses the symptoms of measles, leading to these other problem?

    2) The measles vaccine causes a chronic measles infection, leading to these other problems?

    3) The “toxins” in the measles vaccine causes the other problems?

    4) Something else?

  390. #390 augustine
    January 22, 2012

    It makes me wonder why you are not replying to my statements. It also makes me wonder what bullsh** you are dishing out to the people “you pilot through” illnesses.

    Local county Nurse Lilady, do you consider yourself evidence based?

  391. #391 Chris
    January 23, 2012

    Emily, why did the morbidity of measles in the USA decline by 90% between 1960 and 1970? Please provide suitable documentation for your answer.

    Trust me, it is not my imagination that you have not answered that very simple question. Please answer it intelligently, because I understand that is an asset that you value. I also value that asset, along with integrity and honesty.

    So please answer my question honestly with some good documentation. I believe you have had adequate time to acquire adequate data.

  392. #392 herr doktor bimler
    January 23, 2012

    Emily:
    Where did you get that idea that I starved anyone, let alone my 3 children?

    Once again I am concerned about the fate of the 4th child from comment #213 (“why are not my 4 kids sick with flu & other illnesses that their friends have?”). Is he or she locked in an attic and fed through a slot under the door? Wished into the cornfield? Inquiring minds would like to know.

    Inquiring minds are also wondering about the fate of “Professor Peter Collignon, Assoc Prof. of Infectious Diseases” at Canberra University (comment #342). All the evidence suggests that the University of Canberra does not have, and has never had, a teaching position in infectious diseases; nor has Collignon taught there in some other capacity.

    Has the historical record been revised by a vast all-reaching conspiracy to hide the truth? Are messages leaking through to us from a parallel universe? Is Emily reciting made-up bullshit that she read somewhere and immediately believed because it fitted her preconceptions? Decisions, decisions.

  393. #393 Militant Agnostic
    January 23, 2012

    @herr doktor bimmler

    Inquiring minds are also wondering about the fate of “Professor Peter Collignon, Assoc Prof. of Infectious Diseases” at Canberra University (comment #342).

    Perhaps he fasted himself into non-existence. That Natural Hygiene fasting is powerful stuff.

  394. #394 Krebiozen
    January 23, 2012

    I can’t let this ludicrous statement slip by:

    Fasting allows the body the rest & energy to potentiate its own healing.

    Prolonged fasting deprives the body of energy, and forces it to work hard to stay alive by breaking down stored energy reserves: glycogen, fats and muscle. It floods the body with toxins – oxygen free radicals, ketones and other catabolic waste products that can damage the liver and especially the kidneys. How any of this could possibly potentiate healing beats me.

  395. #395 Rowrbazzle!
    January 23, 2012

    Hmmm!

    Emily’s only response has been an indignant reply to first-time poster attack_laurel‘s reasonably concluded concern for Emily’s children…

    I’m still stuck on the fact that Emily starved her children while they were ill from the measles. That is truly horrifically cruel.

    …but Emily continues to ignore all requests to defend her previous unsupported claims.

  396. #396 Denice Walter
    January 23, 2012

    I venture that fasting has other benefits that allows advocates to overlook the serious issues: it makes you feel as if you are in control; it has been associated with religious observance- making you feel more “pure”; maybe a bit of superiority- ” I can go without food for *x* days, so there!” Asceticism, showing stength of will… being thinner.

    I have seen a great deal of bizarre diet and exercise regimes, supposedly for health, and sometimes wonder how much of it is attributable to people wanting to be thin: some woo-meisters have interesting ideas about how much body fat is desirable. The DSM-5 is supposed to include “Orthorexia”- concern with “correct eating” but I suspect that often it may be akin to more classical eating disorders. Perhaps it’s more socially acceptable to starve yourself for “health” rather than for vanity.

  397. #397 flip
    January 23, 2012

    @376, Emily

    I never said m/o don’t live in labs, I said virulence has more relevance as a labarotory term, than in the natural setting.

    So you believe that organisms work differently in a laboratory setting than in the ‘real world’? Am I right in thinking that’s what you mean?

    Professor Peter Collignon, Associative Professor of Infectious Diseases in your own country, stated during the swine flu ‘fiasco’ that the people getting the vaccine were more likely to get the flu. It created quite a stir in Australia, but was typically dulled down by the medical PR machine.

    I care very little for what one Professor said. I want you to refute the facts: that people were *dying* before the vaccine was created, and deaths were reduced once it was introduced. I do not fall for the logical fallacy of authority. I do however, consider statistics and data. Try posting some.

    What one Professor thinks is not proof of anything. What matters is the *total* data available in peer-reviewed studies, etc. If what one Professor thinks held any water, then we’d all just agree that gravity doesn’t exist because one nutter out there says it doesn’t.

    Most people in Australia rejected the swine flu propaganda! The Government wasted millions of dollars stockpiling H1N1 vaccine & the majority of people were not stupid enough to fall for it. The uptake rate was, medically, very disapointing.It seemed for once there had been an outbreak of common sense.

    Well, you obviously don’t live in Australia. There are pockets of anti-vaccine resistance, yes, and there certainly was a lot of pseudo-scientific objections – largely because of our media being influenced by American media and the AVN – but no for the most part, nobody “rejected it”. (In fact, outside of a few family members who are into woo, I never even heard of anti-vaccine people until I started reading science blogs. That’s how much influence anti-vaxxers have on our media) But seeing as how you believe it to be so, feel free to point me to *data* or *statistics* from a reliable source (no AVN thanks) on how most of Australians “rejected” the vaccine; I will remind you that there were also restrictions on who could receive it and when. I’d also like to see data from a reliable source which states that the flu virus somehow disappeared via other, non vaccine methods.

    But it’s nice to see you finally show your true colours: that you really are anti after all. All your protestations of not being for CAM or for SBM is shown to be a lot of posturing and not much else.

    They even had to “pull” the recommendations for the vaccine for babies because, in Western Australia, there were so many severe reactions to it. The reactions were fever, which is the body working as designed, but what were the recommendations then? Lower the fever!

    As with many other urgent vaccines, it could be that the vaccine was not tested thoroughly enough to discover these reactions. However, given the urgency of the situation, and the high number of people who got sick (and *died*), the benefit at the time outweighed the risk. When it was discovered there was a problem, it was recalled: no cover-up, no conspiracy, just blatent transparency. I will note though that the *majority* of those who got sick were on the Eastern side of Australia, where this ‘pull’ did not occur, IIRC.

    Here was the little baby’s body defending itself against a toxic insult, including thimerosal (mercury), by elevating its temperature, & the supposed experts, who caused the problem in the first place, then dumming down the baby’s innate & natural physiological response with more drugs.

    Ah, the mercury card. See, you really are anti-vax. Please, tell me how making a baby fast would have prevented, cured or stopped that baby dying from swine flu. With data and citations please.

    The swine flu fiasco was regarded by most Aussies, even those FOR vaccinations, as completely over the top, & they answered the medical call by non-compliance. Go Aussies! You have more sense than the yanks.

    Oh well, since you have data… whoops, no, none there either. Yes, go Aussies! We were the smart ones who actually invented a vaccine and produced it fast enough to actually prevent more deaths!! In fact, us Aussies have a lot to do with producing great scientific strides: like Howard Florey, who helped make penicillin. We’re not as anti-scientific as you yanks, although it does creep in. Meryl Dorey, the head of AVN, the anti-vax group, is American. But like every place, there are always fringe groups and fringe ideas that have nothing to do with reality.

    Take anti- pyrretics & tamiflu- your body is useless, it is not self defending,the flu bug is out there & will jump on you & possibly kill you.

    Ah, now you really show your ignorance. Did you bother to read the Wikipedia article? Did you actually read my comment? Because if you did, you will have noticed that along with encouraging and producing a vaccine, the Government, health authorities, hospitals, etc. made many large and public campaigns to encourage GOOD HYGIENE. Ie. they told people to wash their hands, not sneeze all over people, to stay home if they were sick, to see a doctor, etc. Wow, gee, the Government and Big Pharma actually ENCOURAGED ‘natural’ measures.

    Vaccines were provided, mostly, but not exclusively, to people who were more likely to get the flu or more likely to pass it on (teachers, doctors, nurses, etc).

    What a lack of faith in the the human body’s self-healing capacities.

    So those people who died from the swine flu just should have done what instead? Come on, tell us…

    I’d also like you to tell me how you can cure my clinical depression. Do I just “think positive”? How can I “self heal”? I’d really love to know this in particular, because this has been an illness for me since I was 10, and waiting a few decades have shown no sign of “self healing”. I must be doing something wrong, so please tell me what it is I’m missing.

    Please don’t ask inane questions like this. By your logic, if sleeping is so good for us, you would ask, why not sleep all day. If sex is so good for us, why not copulate all day & night?

    It’s not inane. It’s called argument reductio ad absurdum. Look it up if you don’t know what it means.

    You have not explained *why* fasting is good for us, *how* it works or anything. Your reply to me is nothing more than posturing. I can explain why sleeping is good for us, and why too much is bad for us, and why too little is bad for us: can you explain why fasting is good, and why 31 days of fasting is even better?

    I have seen literally thousands of people recover from serious health problems through fasting./blockquote>

    How? Are you some sort of professional practitioner? A voyeur? A nurse? A doctor? Or are you just making shit up based on anecdotes you’ve read on the internet?

    See, you post Professor whatsisname as some sort of authority, but you’re unwilling to tell us how you manage to see so many people with these ‘treatments’. If you’re going to play the authority card, may as well go full tilt and tell us what your credentials are.

    woooo there, I hear you say, show me the data on PubMed).

    If you know we’re going to say it, why not just do the easy thing and post it? Then we’d actually stop hounding you and actually discuss the hypotheses and data behind it all. Until then, put up or shut up.

    Do yourself a favour Flip & investigate this line of inquiry with an open mind, not a sceptic’s mind.

    I’m open minded enough to consider what you say, and then if I notice a hole in your argument, I point it out. If you can’t fill the hole, then I’m not convinced. That’s what being sceptical is all about. I’d change my mind if you posted something that wasn’t full of holes, misinformation or lacking data. You have no idea what ‘sceptic’ means.

    Here’s an anecdote for you: I have very little money at the moment, and that combined with an odd schedule means I often only eat one meal a day. Sometimes I eat nothing at all in 24 hours, and roughly a meal’s worth over a couple of days. Do you know what happens? I start getting extremely irritable, frustrated, I lose concentration, I fumble with my work, I spend most of the day feeling my heart beat racing, and I get shaky. I also spend most of my time thinking about how hungry I am. According to you, these are good things and I should do it more often? (Oh, and I’ll not forget to add that making a depressed person hungry is just not a good idea… But according to you, it should ‘heal’ me, no?)

    Oh, I know – I’m doing it wrong.

    You are full of victim-blaming bullshit. Maybe if you weren’t I’d be much kinder in my response, but you pulled the one card that I just get furious at. What’s more, you’re a victim-blamer who knows outright that she should be posting actual data, but doesn’t because she can’t.

    Show me the data. Then I’ll think about it with an open mind. Don’t post books, don’t post anecdotes, don’t whine about how I’m wrong and the PR machine has me: if the information is so f*ing obvious and so plain as day to you, then it’s not a secret and Big Pharma hasn’t swept it under the carpet. So let’s figure out how to use Pubmed (I did and I’m an artist, not a medico) and find some figures shall we?

    @382, Emily

    Where did you get that idea that I starved anyone, let alone my 3 children?

    You said you made your children fast while they were sick. Unless you have a different dictionary than us, “starve” can be used in exchange for the word “fast”. If they really did just not eat because they felt sick, then you should have been darn sure you write what you mean. This is why we like detail here, ambiguity leads to confusion. (See Alison’s reply to you also at #383)

    Forcing anyone to eat when they are anorexic is dangerous!

    OMFSM. You are fucking stupid. I seriously hope your line of business does not involve the mentally ill.

    You’ve hurt your argument so much, the only thing that would save it now is DATA.

  398. #398 flip
    January 23, 2012

    @380, Attack_laurel

    And yet, I’m the one posting nonsense and inane questions, who shouldn’t be dignified with a response!

    @387, Herr Dokter Bimler

    Putting his name into google brings up a page from the WHO which states that he’s at Canberra Uni. Most of the news about him state it as well; although I can only find a page for him at ANU Medical School. (I’ll admit I only looked at the first 5 pages of results)

  399. #399 flip
    January 23, 2012

    Darn blockquotes… Sigh… It should have read…

    I have seen literally thousands of people recover from serious health problems through fasting.

    How? Are you some sort of professional practitioner? A voyeur? A nurse? A doctor? Or are you just making shit up based on anecdotes you’ve read on the internet?

    See, you post Professor whatsisname as some sort of authority, but you’re unwilling to tell us how you manage to see so many people with these ‘treatments’. If you’re going to play the authority card, may as well go full tilt and tell us what your credentials are.

    woooo there, I hear you say, show me the data on PubMed).

    If you know we’re going to say it, why not just do the easy thing and post it? Then we’d actually stop hounding you and actually discuss the hypotheses and data behind it all. Until then, put up or shut up.

    Do yourself a favour Flip & investigate this line of inquiry with an open mind, not a sceptic’s mind.

    I’m open minded enough to consider what you say, and then if I notice a hole in your argument, I point it out. If you can’t fill the hole, then I’m not convinced. If you can, I may find further problems, or I may agree with that point and move onto the next. If overall, your points are valid and there is data to back it up, I change my mind. That’s what being sceptical is all about. I’d change my mind if you posted something that wasn’t full of holes, misinformation or lacking data. You have no idea what ‘sceptic’ means.

    Here’s an anecdote for you: I have very little money at the moment, and that combined with an odd schedule means I often only eat one meal a day. Sometimes I eat nothing at all in 24 hours, and roughly a meal’s worth over a couple of days. Do you know what happens? I start getting extremely irritable, frustrated, I lose concentration, I fumble with my work, I spend most of the day feeling my heart beat racing, and I get shaky. I also spend most of my time thinking about how hungry I am. According to you, these are good things and I should do it more often? (Oh, and I’ll not forget to add that making a depressed person hungry is just not a good idea… But according to you, it should ‘heal’ me, no?)

    Oh, I know – I’m doing it wrong.

    You are full of victim-blaming bullshit. Maybe if you weren’t I’d be much kinder in my response, but you pulled the one card that I just get furious at. What’s more, you’re a victim-blamer who knows outright that she should be posting actual data, but doesn’t because she can’t.

    Show me the data. Then I’ll think about it with an open mind. Don’t post books, don’t post anecdotes, don’t whine about how I’m wrong and the PR machine has me: if the information is so f*ing obvious and so plain as day to you, then it’s not a secret and Big Pharma hasn’t swept it under the carpet. So let’s figure out how to use Pubmed (I did and I’m an artist, not a medico) and find some figures shall we?

    @382, Emily

    Where did you get that idea that I starved anyone, let alone my 3 children?

    You said you made your children fast while they were sick. Unless you have a different dictionary than us, “starve” can be used in exchange for the word “fast”. If they really did just not eat because they felt sick, then you should have been darn sure you write what you mean. This is why we like detail here, ambiguity leads to confusion. (See Alison’s reply to you also at #383)

    Forcing anyone to eat when they are anorexic is dangerous!

    OMFSM. You are fucking stupid. I seriously hope your line of business does not involve the mentally ill.

    You’ve hurt your argument so much, the only thing that would save it now is DATA.

  400. #400 Denice Walter
    January 23, 2012

    @ flip:

    Woo hoo- that’s telling er! One of the most damaging memes in woo-topia is the denial of mental conditions/ effective treatment by SBM. To boil it all done,to them, most conditions are an invention of greedy pharma and the medical establishment to rake in cash. Depression is merely pathologising everyday moods… not chemical or hereditarial at all! It can be easily treated with St Johns Wort, 5-HTP or B-vitamins, a healthy diet, sunshine, fresh air, exercise, meditation and journal writing. And strength of will, I suppose.

    This nonsense illustrates how far removed from reality they are. While no one in my family has suffered from severe depression, there have been an awful lot of morose people- including a great-grandfather who left his own musings about it. It’s also interesting to contemplate the work of well-known writers on the subject- no shortage of them.

    I wish you well- life can be hard but sometimes we can learn ways- and use science- to circumvent that miserable dark beast and feel a bit better. I hope so.

  401. #401 NJ
    January 23, 2012

    herr doctor bimler @ 390:

    Wished into the cornfield?

    +1 for classic Jerome Bixby reference.

  402. #402 lilady
    January 23, 2012

    @ flip: Gee, I wish I had posted your comments under my ‘nym.

    I’ve been “slumming” again at AoA…here’s today’s “headliner”:

    AutismOne SoCal at Health Freedom Expo: The Exciting New Autism Event of Southern California

    RegisterAutismOne is excited to team up with the leaders of the Health Freedom Expo community to present engaging and important speakers/lectures/panels. Dan Olmsted of Age of Autism will lecture and lead a rousing panel covering “Malfeasance in the Media”; Tim Bolen of The Bolen Report officiates the “Vaccine Politics” panel; and, of course, biomed lectures like Dr. Jerry Kartzinel’s “Mending Autism: Comorbid Biological Conditions and Moving Toward Recovery” help parents move their children forward. AutismOne Chicago keynote Dr. David Lewis also joins us at the Health Freedom Expo in Long Beach with his stellar presentation “Institutional Research Misconduct: The Autism Researcher’s Worst Nightmare.” With 3 days of biomed, advocacy, and education lectures and panels, AutismOne SoCal at Health Freedom Expo brings together the leaders in the autism and health freedom movements, giving you the straight answers so that you can be the most effective advocate for your child. To register for March 2-4 in Long Beach: http://www.HealthFreedomExpo.com. To register for May 23-27 in Chicago: http://www.AutismOne.org.

    Another “headliner” is the speaker’s schedule for the AutismOne conference in Chicago. The “usual suspects”/luminaries of the anti-vax world are scheduled including Wakefield and his “expert advisor” David Lewis and the chemically castrating Geier tag team.

  403. #403 herr doktor bimler
    January 23, 2012

    Putting his name into google brings up a page from the WHO which states that he’s at Canberra Uni.

    This is what I find at the WHO site:

    Prof. Peter Collignon
    Director of the Infectious Diseases Unit and Microbiology at the Canberra Hospital, Professor at the Medical School of the Australian National University.

    Canberra Uni. and ANU are unconnected.

  404. #404 alison
    January 23, 2012

    Well said, Flip (379)! Thank you for taking the time to write all that. Take care, & (like Denise) I wish you well.

  405. #405 flip
    January 23, 2012

    @397, Denice

    Depression is merely pathologising everyday moods… not chemical or hereditarial at all! It can be easily treated with St Johns Wort, 5-HTP or B-vitamins, a healthy diet, sunshine, fresh air, exercise, meditation and journal writing. And strength of will, I suppose.

    Yeah, one of my family members keeps telling me it could all be due to (lack of) vitamins. I will agree that certain ‘natural’ things affect me, like lack of proper food, or exercise, but I assure you that it does not ‘cure’ only temporarily ‘relieves’ or ‘impacts’. Certainly, just waiting around for it to go away doesn’t work. Incidentally, when younger and doing research for a project on depression, I fell for a lot of that woo-based thinking. It wasn’t until I started thinking more about it and reading more science that I realised how stupid a lot of those things were.

    I wish you well- life can be hard but sometimes we can learn ways- and use science- to circumvent that miserable dark beast and feel a bit better. I hope so

    Thanks, I appreciate your kind thoughts :)

    @399 Lilady

    Gee, I wish I had posted your comments under my ‘nym.

    I think that’s a compliment… ? :)

    @400 Herr Doktor Bimler

    Canberra Uni. and ANU are unconnected./blockquote>

    Yes, I know – sorry my comment was typed hastily and I wrote ‘uni’ instead of hospital. My point was that perhaps down the line someone has confused the two (and ended up proving my point by my mistake :) )

  406. #406 ebohlman
    January 23, 2012

    lilady#399: Have I just been out of the loop, or is this the first time the AutismOne/AoA crowd has associated with Bolen? I remember him back when he was Hulda Clark’s attack chihuahua and he was defending a quack in WI (Shuster, I think).

  407. #407 herr doktor bimler
    January 23, 2012

    I wrote ‘uni’ instead of hospital.

    Ah, all is clear.
    Here is Collignon’s actual position on H1N1 and flu pandemics:
    http://www.eht-journal.net/index.php/ehtj/rt/printerFriendly/7169/9258

    Needless to say, the view that Emily ascribes to him — “the best way of getting swine flu was to get the swine flu jab” — exists only in her own mendacious mind.

  408. #408 Calli Arcale
    January 23, 2012

    flip:

    Yeah, one of my family members keeps telling me it could all be due to (lack of) vitamins. I will agree that certain ‘natural’ things affect me, like lack of proper food, or exercise, but I assure you that it does not ‘cure’ only temporarily ‘relieves’ or ‘impacts’.

    I’ve also struggled with chronic depression. I think not eating right (mainly, not eating enough) and not getting enough sleep or not exercising can make it harder to deal with depression. I’m not sure they actually make the depression worse, or if it’s just that you start exceeding the brain’s crap-dealing capacity. I’ve always been pissed at woos who say that if I just eat right, etc I won’t get depressed. But that’s actually backwards. When I’m depressed, I don’t eat right — I don’t see the point. I don’t sleep right either, or exercise, because again, what’s the point? Depression can suck away all the enthusiasm you ever had for anything, so of course depressed people have problems leaving healthy. Now, one might see them getting better when they’re leaving healthy, but is the effect being confused for the cause? Did getting their act straight cure the depression, or were they only able to get their act together once the depression lifted? I lean towards the latter notion.

    This is the best depiction of depression I have ever seen:
    http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2011/10/adventures-in-depression.html

  409. #409 Denice Walter
    January 23, 2012

    @ flip: You might want to read about cognitive approaches to depression as well as attributional research. Although I’ve thus far managed to keep my own head above water, I find that the mists that swirl from its cold depths have an icy beauty all their own- yes, art helps.

    @ lilady: Because you’re brave, you might fancy listening in on parts of a 6 hr special that focuses on the so-called shafting of one AJW featuring new BFF, David Lewis,( @ the Progressive Radio Network 8 pm tonight; Progressive Commentary Hour) which will cater to AoA sensibilities- not that they have any. Wearing boots and protective garments are strongly advised as the crap should be flowing effusively. I shall be otherwise engaged- it’s Chinese New Year.

  410. #410 flip
    January 23, 2012

    @405 Calli Arcale

    Yes, I agree with you entirely. Adding extra stress by not eating, not sleeping, etc, can make things worse. (I struggle to convince my family of this, who continue to think that ‘not sleeping properly’ is equal to an average person’s ‘groggy’ feeling. It’s not, and I’m always amazed at the difference that sleep can make to my mood)

    And many people forget that depression also makes you lethargic, and increases a lack of appetite. I’ve learned now that I must force myself to eat on occasion, because despite the lack of feeling of hunger, I may not have eaten often enough throughout the day. Sometimes food even tastes bland because of it.

    I would say – and here I profess utter ignorance on the matter scientifically speaking – that good counselling or meds or the will to be healthier would impact greater on actually eating/living healthier, than it being the other way around. You have to be motivated to go out jogging for instance, and cooking a healthy meal rather than getting McDonald’s is just too energy-consuming when you can’t be assed.

    (On a personal note, I’ve found a compromise for the healthy eating is to find extremely simple recipes that include fresh food. It doesn’t take long enough that I think “I can’t be assed” and talk myself out of it, and results in lots of yummy food for a whole week if I make it in large quantities. And it’s pretty cheap too. Hope I can stick with it, I eat crap usually)

    Hope you’re doing well :)

    Thanks for posting that link. I couldn’t connect with a lot of it, but the lack of motivation and feeling numbness after a while I could definitely agree with. Personally, the best description of it for me is just wanting to go to bed and sleep forever. Maybe that’s my insomnia talking ;)

  411. #411 flip
    January 23, 2012

    @401 Alison

    Thanks! I wish me well too :)

  412. #412 Denice Walter
    January 23, 2012

    @ flip- altho’ I have to leave, I have comment in moderation above w/ some general suggestions for reading.

  413. #413 Emily
    January 23, 2012

    Alison @ 385

    A reasonable assumption? I’d hate to hear you when you were unreasoable!

    Anorexia is not a disease- it is the term for loss of hunger. Anorexia Nervosa is completely different- is is a disease.

    Krebiozen @ 392

    Your ingorance of such an ancient & efficacious method to potentiate healing is surprising. If you are interested in arming yourself (& perhaps your family)with the knowledge & wisdom of the benefits of APPROPRIATE fasting, refer to the American College of Cardiology Conference April 2011 reported in the NYT April 9th 2011:

    ” it appears that fasting is causing some major stress, & the body responds to that by some protective mechanisms that potentially have a beneficial effect on the risk of chronic disease…
    ” The effect of fasting, abstaining from food on a regular basis, leads to metabolic changes that are good for the heart….
    ” People who fast routinely have a lower prevalence of coronary disease” Dr Horne from the American College of Cardiology.

    Also read Dr Joel Fuhrman’s book Fasting & Eating for Health.

    My advice is: don’t wait for data in PubMed before you aquaint yourself with this priceless wisdom, it could literally save your life!

    Flip @ 395

    I am sorry you experience depression, & I trust my responses to your blog don’t exacerbate your condition.

    “So you believe that organisms work differently in a laboratory setting than in the ‘real world’? Am I right in thinking that’s what you mean?”

    Absolutely! “Newer evidence is now showing that the level of nutrition of the host can also directly influence the genetic makeup of the virus, ALTERING ITS VIRULENCE.” SuperImmunity By Dr Joel Fuhrman p33

    Also, refer to “Anti-Oxidants & Viral Infections; host Immune Response & Viral Pathogenicity” J Am Coll Nutr 2001; 20.

    Regarding the Australian situation with Swine Flu, you need to be more mindful of the public sentiment in your own backyard.The medical profession was disapointed with the swine flu vaccine’s public uptake. As I said, you can’t “pull the wool” over too many Aussie eyes, notwithstanding yours. Go to http://www.eht-journal.net & read the truth about the fiasco of swine flu in Australia ( & the world):

    ” The widespread media coverage as well as government press releases induced panic & UNDUE FEAR (my emphasis) in the population” (of Aust).

    You also state:

    “You are full of victim-blaming bullshit. Maybe if you weren’t I’d be much kinder in my response, but you pulled the one card that I just get furious at. What’s more, you’re a victim-blamer who knows outright that she should be posting actual data, but doesn’t because she can’t.”

    Since when do I blame the victim? I blame “causes” for disease. Medical ads blame the victims (re smoking ads-‘smoked eh?- got lung cancer!’ & melanoma ads- ‘too much sun, silly’).

    Diseases are the result of certain “causes”- a few not within our control but most within. Study Natural Hygiene & you will learn them. It’s not difficult, just get your head out of PubMed for a couple of hours & read some wisdom.

    “Ah, the mercury card. See, you really are anti-vax. Please, tell me how making a baby fast would have prevented, cured or stopped that baby dying from swine flu. With data and citations please.”

    Get serious, Flip! Better than responding to the above nonsense about fasting babies, do you really think it’s a healthy thing to inject aluminium, formaldehyde, polysorbate 80 & other chemicals into a ONE DAY- old baby? Please use your common sense more than you use the Pub!

    “You said you made your children fast while they were sick. Unless you have a different dictionary than us, “starve” can be used in exchange for the word “fast”. If they really did just not eat because they felt sick, then you should have been darn sure you write what you mean.”

    I never said anywhere that I “made” anyone fast, let alone my children.If I didn’t say it, please don’t assume it. That’s not good science Flip. And by the way, fasting & starving are NOT the same thing. Fasting is physiological, governed by precise metabolic adaptations ( glycogenolysis, gluconeogenesis, ketosis etc all a result of autolysis). In fasting, vital tissue is not auto-lysed.

    Starving is pathological, with a sharp pre-mortal rise in nitrogen excretion & vital tissue is used. Please get your basics right & do some reading on this vital, life-saving subject.

    “OMFSM. You are fucking stupid. I seriously hope your line of business does not involve the mentally ill.”

    I honestly feel sorry for you. Get a life!

    Lilady @ 367:

    Please also provide information how the body heals “naturally” from gall bladder disease, Graves disease, thyroid cancer and a diseased appendix.

    Resorting to natural hygienic principles will prove efficacious in helping the body recover from gallstones (the body often expels the gravel in a fast); Graves disease & other autoimmune diseases respond well also, as does appendicitis. I am yet to see a thyroid cancer patient adopt hygienic principles & practices so can’t comment on that.

    If I had another 2 hours I could elaborate how the above pathologies were reversed but I haven’t. Go to http://www.healthpromoting.com or http://www.fastingbydesign.com & this will enlighten you.

  414. #414 Chris
    January 23, 2012

    I know you are here, Emily. Do you think you might actually answer my rather simple question? How exactly did the rate of measles drop by 90% in the USA between 1960 and 1970? No more diversions, and if you do bring up some stuff about the measles being something else, you better have some very good evidence in the form of a real study.

  415. #415 attack_laurel
    January 23, 2012

    @ Emily:

    I quote your story of your three children getting the measles:
    So back to the kids. What did we do? Nothing, intelligently! They all fasted on nothing but water, a little fruit after that & all conserved their energy by total bed rest.

    The bolding is for emphasis. You claimed they fasted on nothing but water, which is starvation. If they did it for a day because they were sick and did not feel like eating, that isn’t a fast (except by your goalpost-moving standards), it’s children not wanting to eat. But I suspect now that you went overboard in your attempts to prove to us all why starving the body of vital nutrients is so awesome, and got tripped up when people called you on it. Fasting is dangerous for adults; when imposed on children it is child abuse.

    (@rowrbazzle: I’m not a first-time commenter, but I’m a very sporadic one. I’ve been reading RI for a couple of years. :))

    (@flip: I know, right? And best wishes to you! I went through a medication-induced bout of depression a few years ago, and stopped eating almost entirely for nearly 3 months. It did not cure me of anything, and everyone was horrified by my appearance.)

  416. #416 Narad
    January 23, 2012

    Since when do I blame the victim?

    Why did Herbert Shelton spend more than the last decade of his life bedridden, Emily?

  417. #417 lilady
    January 23, 2012

    Yes flip…that was a compliment. Your post is superb.

    We love to welcome intelligent posters here…and I’m still jealous that you posted that retort to Emily.

    I read some of Peter Collignon’s comments at the time of the H1N1 influenza crisis and IMO, he was on the wrong side of the issue. He wanted to proceed slowly with development of a vaccine and implementation of an immunization program. Here in the United States the vaccine was only made available to children and younger people who were considered to be the most vulnerable.

    More than two years past the H1N1 Influenza pandemic, Collignon is still jabbering and still on the wrong side of the issue. Recently he has been quoted as saying that immunization again H1N1 influenza “may” impact a person’s defenses against seasonal influenza viruses; based on a few very weak studies that have been published.

  418. #418 Rowrbazzle!
    January 23, 2012

    @attack_laurel

    I was simply noting Emily’s focusing on your first post (as a late arrival in what was then a nearly 400-post thread) rather than responding to the others who preceded you.

    I apologize for any appearance of disrespect.

  419. #419 attack_laurel
    January 23, 2012

    @Rowrbazzle!:

    No need to apologize. I was just adding info to the conversation. :) Unfortunately, I seem to have provided a distraction to allow Emily to sidle out of answering some uncomfortably astute questions. :)

  420. #420 lilady
    January 23, 2012

    “Resorting to natural hygienic principles will prove efficacious in helping the body recover from gallstones (the body often expels the gravel in a fast); Graves disease & other autoimmune diseases respond well also, as does appendicitis. I am yet to see a thyroid cancer patient adopt hygienic principles & practices so can’t comment on that.”

    Emily…we are not talking about “gravel” when we discuss gall bladder disease. We are talking about stones, big honking stones, that obstruct the biliary tree. The “treatment” is not “hygienics” but rather to keep the patient NPO, provide IV hydrations/electrolytes and to remove the gall bladder and clear the common bile duct. Perhaps you are confusing the gall bladder with the urinary bladder?

    You have offered no studies of patients undergoing fasting and curing Graves disease, thyroid cancer and an inflamed/ruptured appendix, except your idiotic “fasting” cure.

    “If I had another 2 hours I could elaborate how the above pathologies were reversed but I haven’t. Go to http://www.healthpromoting.com or http://www.fastingbydesign.com & this will enlighten you.”

    Well Emily, here’s your chance to “elaborate” for all of us “how the above pathologies were reversed”…because we have been to your websites and they are totally empty of any information.

    BTW, are you a “hygienist”? Where did you get your degree in “hygienics” and where are your licensed as a “hygienist”?

  421. #421 flip
    January 24, 2012

    Forgive me, this is a long one. It could be longer. I’m a writer by nature and can get quite detailed, so apologies ahead of time…

    @407, Denice

    Incidentally, my experiences with obtaining mental health support has been pretty crappy. I know my experience is anecdotal, as well as singular, however it has turned me off seeking professional help for a while. I’m the last one in the world who will say it’s perfect, or even remotely ‘good’. However, I still support it because it is scientifically based, and getting better all the time. As compared to the non-scientific crap that many mentally ill people have had to suffer through in the past.

    As for art, you don’t have to tell me. It’s what I do for a living.

    @408, Emily

    Your ingorance of such an ancient & efficacious method to potentiate healing is surprising.

    Ah, the “it’s ancient, it must work” card. Hmm, anyone care to play some bingo?

    The rest of your reply to Krebiozen leaves me with this question: do you understand what a risk/benefit analysis is?

    Now we come to your responses to me:

    I am sorry you experience depression, & I trust my responses to your blog don’t exacerbate your condition.

    :P Ah raspberries! Actually, fighting woo is helping me vent all the built up frustration. PS. Don’t build up your ego on me. I have far worse demons in my head than some anonymous person on the net could come up with. And this is fairly mild compared to some of the actions I’ve faced with people who have disagreed with me. Actually, very very mild.

    So you believe that organisms work differently in a laboratory setting than in the ‘real world’? Am I right in thinking that’s what you mean?

    Absolutely! “Newer evidence is now showing that the level of nutrition of the host can also directly influence the genetic makeup of the virus, ALTERING ITS VIRULENCE.” SuperImmunity By Dr Joel Fuhrman p33

    The fun thing about this is I get to ask two questions: what evidence (you might want to post it instead of regurgitating books at me again) and why/how do organisms behave differently in a lab? Please explain how double-blind placebo trials that specifically eliminate bias end up not replicating actual world events. With evidence please, not your mumbo jumbo.

    I went and looked at the second reference (Anti-oxidants, etc, here). Please point out to me where in the text it talks about organisms behaving differently in lab conditions. The first sentence says: “Malnutrition has long been associated with increased susceptibility to infectious disease.”

    I’d like to know how fasting prevents disease if you’re posting references that disprove your point. (Maroon!!!) In fact, I didn’t see anything that suggests anything to do with your point of view. (Even more maroon!) You are either very stupid or have trouble with reading comprehension. Or just very very biased.

    Hey look, I opened my mind, read what you asked: and funnily enough discovered that you’re talking through your hat.

    As for the book, I do not have finances to buy a book just for this discussion and have no access to a library at the moment. So I’ll ignore that for the time being.

    Let’s move on to the sites you posted at the bottom of your comment.

    Health Promoting says:

    Relative contraindications to prolonged fasting include pregnancy, extreme weakness, inadequate nutrient reserves, some kidney problems, the use of certain medications, and some types of cancer… Fasting is not a cure.

    Apparently, they don’t see it as a cure-all. Well, that’s two things you didn’t read properly. Oh wait, you didn’t read the Wikipedia article I posted before either. Three.

    They say: “In order to facilitate these changes we offer educational programs dealing with diet, exercise proper body use, stress management, sleep, and psychology”

    Oh look, they encourage things that SBM doctors do. What a surprise.

    They say: “Fasts typically continue for 5 to 40 days”

    They don’t say why longer is better, or what happens in prolonged fasting. Or what the potential risks are. (I’ll admit I only read a bit, as I’m lacking time)

    They disclaim: “First, TrueNorth Health is not a hospital, or medical care facility with a staff of doctors, nurses, etc.”

    Yeah, I trust non-doctors for treatments as much as I trust my dog to fix my plumbing. So what happens in an emergency situation? If someone faints from fasting too long, or has a heart attack? Oh, their ONE doctor and their ONE psychologist may be able to help. (Chiropracters don’t count for me. That’s woo too) Apparently you’ll see a lot more of the staff chiro than you will the actual doctor. What does a chiropracter have to do with fasting? I find it interesting also that you stay at the facility but no nurse is on hand. And NO ONE AT ALL is available during the night. Fuck, if you have a heart attack, better make sure it’s during the day.

    I’d like to know where it’s actually explained why and how fasting works. I’d like to know each step: the chemical and biological reactions in the body, what parts of the body work to interact to produce a beneficial effect, etc.

    I could read the rest of the site, but I have work to do and better things to do at the moment. I could come back to it later, along with the other site you posted. This comment is long enough as it is.

    If you could point me directly towards a page on either site which elucidates: how fasting effects the body (ie what chemicals or biological events occur in sequence), where they post links to their relevant research which is apparently published in journals, where they explain how depression can be treated by fasting, actual statistics of treatment rates (ie. how many people treated/cured, how many drop-outs of treatment, what other treatments are used in percentages, etc), a risk/benefit analysis, that would be really helpful. I don’t have time to wade through every sentence of each site.

    Regarding the Australian situation with Swine Flu, you need to be more mindful of the public sentiment in your own backyard.The medical profession was disapointed with the swine flu vaccine’s public uptake.

    Yes they were: you know why don’t you? Because AVN and other anti-vax idiots kept yelling at the media and creating FUD. Popularity does not prove something right, and neither does FUD. But uptake was still good. I note that you avoid my question again: how and why did the deaths and illness stop, if not for the vaccine? Stop telling me the vaccine wasn’t used: even if it wasn’t, that still doesn’t tell me HOW the flu went away in your worldview. How did it go away?

    The widespread media coverage as well as government press releases induced panic & UNDUE FEAR (my emphasis) in the population” (of Aust).

    Yes, the media is often wrong. Like in the US, in an effort for ‘balanced’ viewpoints, there was too much reliance on the creating an equal voice with anti-scientific views. The Government and relevant health organisations ended up over-stressing the issue as a counter to it. Additionally,
    a warranted although over-the-top concern for a new vaccine with a shorter-than-normal testing period affected people’s viewpoints. Mostly the relevant authorities gave balanced, detailed encouragement; the rest is hype created by the media. Just like with the discussion on global warming panic, fear and doomsday scenarios are strawmen constructed by FUD.

    I’ll remind you that I was in the country at the time, and I spent some of that time in or around hospitals and a doctor’s office, and watched the news myself. I’m very aware of what was going on at the time, not based on some post-hoc reading of some journal. I remember the hype, just as I remember seeing on the news that people were dying in my own state from the flu, where mostly flu season is reduced to “that annoying thing where you *might* get sick”. What do you think the deaths were something else and conveniently labelled as from the flu in order to deceive the public?

    You can argue all you like about “wool”, but I remind you that I asked you for a reason why people stopped dying and getting sick, and how the people who did die/get sick could avoid it. You’re grandstanding and trying to avoid the question, just the same as with Chris’. You won’t answer the question of course, but it does make you look foolish to lurkers and fence-sitters. If the answer is so easy and so obvious to you, then surely it would be just as easy to type it out.

    Since when do I blame the victim? I blame “causes” for disease. Medical ads blame the victims (re smoking ads-‘smoked eh?- got lung cancer!’ & melanoma ads- ‘too much sun, silly’).

    Right there. Right there you do. Maybe you’re such an idiot you can’t see it. But here I’ll explain it to you: by denying the actual causes of illnesses you are victim-blaming. If someone gets lung cancer, in your world, what did the person do to get the illness? What could they do to avoid it? And what could they do to cure it? And what are these “causes”? Are they all the same thing? If so, how come every single illness, with their myriad different symptoms, all come from the same cause? If so, shouldn’t one cause create one symptom?

    See you keep saying that Natural Hygiene works, but you never explicitly, outright say what the “causes” are and how it all works. You just wave your hands around and say a few nice-sounding sentences but never explicitly state what you mean. How do you get skin cancer, or lung cancer? If I make up an experiment, how do I show that X causes Y, via your worldview? How do I show that Z treats Y, and the underlying X?

    Let’s make it a little more realistic:
    I don’t smoke, drink and my only ‘bad food’ at the moment is chocolate. I don’t really exercise, but we’ll chalk that up to depression and lethargy. I have normal blood pressure and cholesterol, no diabetes (will admit to being overweight, but again, lack of exercise), and am not on any medications. And I seem to be inadvertantly fasting. What am I doing differently to your ‘natural hygiene’ system and why am I still depressed? And why does not eating regularly make my depression worse, not better? Why am I not losing weight even though I am eating less? What am I doing wrong? You’ve helped people with Natural Hygiene ‘treatments’ before, so help me: what do I do?

    The only difference as far as I can see is that you believe the “cause” for an illness is how one lives your life. And yes, that is victim blaming. Because how does a 10 year old, who has a pretty comfortable life, who has never been mistreated, who has parents who love them, become suicidal? How does a well-fed, fit-bodied kid who does lots of sports, with plenty of friends, become suicidal? What the fuck did I do (or not do) that caused my illness? What the fuck does a 10 year old do to cure it? You tell me that, a straight answer. I bet you don’t. I bet that cuts a little too close for your comfort to say it.

    Diseases are the result of certain “causes”- a few not within our control but most within. Study Natural Hygiene & you will learn them. It’s not difficult, just get your head out of PubMed for a couple of hours & read some wisdom.

    No see, you don’t get it. You’re trying to convince me, so you have to explain it. I’ll get my head out of Pubmed, if you get yours out of your ass for long enough to explain it with no ambiguity. Explain it in two sentences. You tell me, exactly what I am doing wrong. Because if it’s “not difficult” you should have no trouble explaining it. And you should have no trouble answering at least one or more of the questions I’ve posed above.

    Get serious, Flip! Better than responding to the above nonsense about fasting babies, do you really think it’s a healthy thing to inject aluminium, formaldehyde, polysorbate 80 & other chemicals into a ONE DAY- old baby? Please use your common sense more than you use the Pub!

    Whoops – I got you so riled up now you’re actually revealing how much of an anti-vaxxer you are. My common *knowledge* tells me that there’s arsenic in apples – as well as human bodies. There’s a certain amount of radioactivity to bananas. Do you not give your children ‘natural’ food? Funny thing is that common sense is so often wrong. Maybe you need to take a course in psychology. Hell, my high school class taught me all about illusions, bias, and good experimentational methodology.

    I’d like to see you try and argue your way through that list of anti-vax nonsense. I have nothing to add because a simple read of the rest of this site, Science Based Medicine, or fuck, even any other science-based blog would come up with a billion refutations. But hey, you live in your own little world there. I’ll tell you what: I’ll read your books, if you read those. I’ve already gone part way, having read some of your suggestions. Let’s see you even remotely read one of the sites we’ve mentioned and have you discuss it without screwing up your comprehension skills.

    I never said anywhere that I “made” anyone fast, let alone my children.If I didn’t say it, please don’t assume it.

    There’s a saying: if we were mindreaders, we wouldn’t need telephones. If you imply it, don’t get annoyed when someone else repeats it back to you, see below:

    Post 310

    So back to the kids. What did we do? Nothing, intelligently! They all fasted on nothing but water, a little fruit after that & all conserved their energy by total bed rest.

    You want to clarify, fine. But don’t blame us for your lack of clarity in the first place. Words have meaning, and the order in which you use them is just as important as what words you choose to use.

    And by the way, fasting & starving are NOT the same thing. Fasting is physiological, governed by precise metabolic adaptations ( glycogenolysis, gluconeogenesis, ketosis etc all a result of autolysis). In fasting, vital tissue is not auto-lysed.

    Once again, I point out that if one uses a thesaurus, it could be considered the same thing. Maybe you’re not a native English speaker and something is lost in translation. Once again, I point out that if you’d like to avoid being misunderstood, it is best to be as clear as possible. Ambiguity leads to confusion.

    As for your differential, I am not that well-versed in medical terms, so I will leave commentary to someone else.

    I honestly feel sorry for you. Get a life!

    Right back at ya. Apparently we’ve reverted to high school girls. Hey – are you still worried about exacerbating my condition? Cause you know, in the words of some great Aussie comedians: Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will cause permanent psychological damage. (That is an actual punchline from the great Lano & Woodley) Ah, but seriously folks… do you starve or fast someone as a treatment for anorexia? Which one is it? (Explain it like I’m a dummy and have no medical knowledge whatsoever. Which is somewhat close to the truth)

    Still no data I see. Can I ask at this point… why, if this Natural Hygiene works so well, will there not be anything on Pubmed? Why if there are studies by that Health Promoting organisation, can they not be found there? Why do you have such an aversion to Pubmed?

    Resorting to natural hygienic principles will prove efficacious in helping the body recover from gallstones (the body often expels the gravel in a fast); Graves disease & other autoimmune diseases respond well also, as does appendicitis. I am yet to see a thyroid cancer patient adopt hygienic principles & practices so can’t comment on that.

    What are these natural hygienic principles? See, if you can’t elucidate on the *how* why would anyone even begin to think that it works? You just assert it’s so without ever explaining the mechanisms. Let’s take the A-Z route. If fasting is A, and ‘getting better’ (whatever that means.. actually, what does it mean?) is Z, what are the steps to get from A to Z? Why does it work for a myriad of symptoms?

    Bah, like I’m ever going to get a straight answer from you.

    But you know what: if you do, I might actually change my mind. Me, sceptic. You, anti-vaxxer.

  422. #422 Emily
    January 24, 2012

    Lilady @ 418:

    I have seen, as have Drs Goldhammer, Burton & many others, patients with gallstones fast & recover without cholecystectomy. No drugs, no homeopathy, no surgery. I have seen a number of cases in my life. I know what I have observed, the patients know & their families.

    The cases have not been methodically recorded for data in any study, for reasons I’ve stated before.

    Now if you ask me will fasting be appropriatre in every case of cholelithiasis, I don’t know, it depends on many factors. Fasting is not appropriate for everything. I have never said it is. But in the hands of a skilled & competent hygienist, fasting used appropriately can obviate the need for much surgery & medications in many, many cases of disease.

    I really don’t care if you so enamored with eminence, er evidence-based medicine that you think no one but medically trained doctors can read & use their brains & their common sense.

    The problem with you & your ilk is that you think that just because most of the alternative health information is nonsense, which it is, that everything else that challenges the medical system, without PubMed references, is just as much nonsense.

    Natural hygiene as a system does not purport to have all the answers, but after studying this for many years, it has more than the drugging medical business. Even Dr Marcia Angell, editor of the NEJM for 20 years, recognized that modern medicine was suffering because of its unholy matrimony to big pharma: “The FDA is now so dependent on the pharmaceutical industry,it has become big pharma’s handmaiden” from ‘The Truth about the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us & What to do About it’ p242.

    Was she a quack too because she din’t supply PubMed references?

    Show me where natural hygiene has become a handmaiden to any supposedly “natural” things (vitamin megadoses, homeopathy etc)?

  423. #423 flip
    January 24, 2012

    I have a comment – long one – in moderation to Emily. In the meantime…

    @413 Attack_laurel

    Thank you – and best wishes to you too. I can’t imagine going 3 months like that. I hope you’re feeling better now. (Ech. I hate that. There’s no words in any language that fully describes how useless other words are to sympathise with another mentally ill person. The experience is not one that can be “worded away” either)

    @415 Lilady

    Well thank you :)
    I have been an on and off lurker here over the last few years, via SBM. This is my first discussion/commenting. I’m not really into the medical side of science so I haven’t been around. I’m glad my comments have met with agreement, and even more surprised that anyone would be jealous of it. Thank FSM, I actually sound intelligent to someone else! :)

    As for H1N1, I remember a lot of noise about the vaccine, but I also remember that there were plenty of tourists, returning-from-holidays school kids, and the like, getting sick. Many of them had to be quarantined, if they weren’t sick already. I can understand a reasoned debate about rushing a vaccine vs proceeding a bit slower, however most of what I remember wasn’t reasoned: it was over-the-top concerns about not knowing how the vaccine would work or if it would at all. Although I don’t want to downplay the risks, it seems to me that vaccines and their underlying mechanisms are fairly well understood and that since we regularly produce flu vaccines (which cover a variety of flu strains anyway) people shouldn’t be so concerned as to consider vaccines as useless. There was a lot of hype about it being ‘untested’ as well, which was patently untrue: trials were being done, but were prioritised and perhaps shorter than normal, due to the urgency.

    As far as I’m concerned, the Government and relevant organisations reacted as they should have, by providing information, resources and assistance to the public; implementing plans to assist states and relevant organisations to deal with the situation; and including various organisations as part of their plans/information system. By far, the hype was from those who opposed the vaccine or thought it was “just the flu” (ie. non-lethal), and the increased noise thereafter was the Government and related bodies trying to shout them down.

    It is helpful to remember that the majority of the outbreak occurred around our mid-year holidays, and people were either returning to work or school, where they could potentially infect lots of people due to their contact with other flu carriers. I too was worried about the speed at which the vaccine was introduced, however, I balanced it with the benefit and deaths at the time, and think that the threat of pandemic is enough to outweigh the risk. I paid particular attention to the issue as I was travelling mid-year, along with my family. We all got a flu vax, and Tamiflu just in case – no swine flu vax was available at the time – and my family was quarantined for 2 weeks on return as they work at a school.

    Especially in a fast-evolving situation like that, which also requires more immediate action than negotiation, compromise or discussion for other large public issues, I don’t think it benefits anyone to go on about how the governments acted too hastily post-hoc without serious data to back it up. Like with all emergency situations, there’s little time to react and when/if you do it can be fatal in either direction. The science underlying it all is put to the test, and flaws may be found – and again, not wanting to downplay the actual/potential problems – but it’s one of those situations where benefit and risk are extremely nuanced. A review afterwards is always beneficial, to highlight problem areas and make improvements, but you can’t know these things beforehand and those in charge need to make a science-based practical decision and quickly.

    I’m not naive enough to think that it couldn’t have been handled better, but I’m also not naive enough to think that downplaying H1N1 is a good idea either. Like people who go on about plenty of other “panic” events, they often forget that public knowledge and encouragement of doing something leads the event to never happen or happen only slightly. And then they point and say: “see, it wasn’t worth panicking over, was it?”

    @418 Lilady

    Oooh, I missed that. Does Emily eat gravel maybe? I think eating stones and pebbles might be a bit too ‘natural’ for me.

    Blagh, my comment is long. Never type when you’re tired and loquacious. (I’ve known that word for 20 years and only now get to use it! What a lovely, unused word it is)

  424. #424 herr doktor bimler
    January 24, 2012

    I am yet to see a thyroid cancer patient adopt hygienic principles & practices so can’t comment on that.

    Emily, you are incorrigible. You have already commented on “unnecessary thyroidectomies”, twice, in comments 249 and 361.
    You seem to have a low opinion of your own comments, you pay so little attention to them.

  425. #425 T-reg
    January 24, 2012

    @lilady

    but rather to keep the patient NPO

    Who says SBM doesn’t recognize the power of fasting?? :)

  426. #426 T-reg
    January 24, 2012

    @flip:

    Wow! I’m glad I wasn’t spouting Emily’s nonsense.

    I’m sorry for your having to struggle with depression. I hope things turn for the better for you.

  427. #427 Emily
    January 24, 2012

    her doktor bimler @ 419

    “Emily, you are incorrigible. You have already commented on “unnecessary thyroidectomies”, twice, in comments 249 and 361.
    You seem to have a low opinion of your own comments, you pay so little attention to them”

    That’s the problem with these blogs. You read that I have seen uneccessary thyroidectomies & then I say that I haven’t seen a patient with thyroid cancer adopt hygienic measures & recover, & you then cry foul! I’m incorrigible.

    I have never seen anyone with a thyroid malignancy is what I should have said, but I have seen many with Graves & Hashimotos recover without drugs & many with thyroid nodules/tumours recover without drugs.

    When you are one out of many amongst a pit of lions,you cannot cover everything. Just call me Daniel!

  428. #428 lilady
    January 24, 2012

    “but rather to keep the patient NPO”.

    Hmmm, my brother, about 40 years ago, was scheduled for gall bladder surgery. Four days before the surgery, he ended up in the hospital with a gangrenous gall bladder. He had a huge incision, from the 8 hour surgery and he was fortunate to have survived. A close friend was scheduled for the surgery, but when she developed acute pancreatitis and jaundice, she was NPO for days on IV antibiotics, before the surgery.

    I have two friends (one of them is a physician), whose appendix burst and they were prescribed powerful IV antibiotics to fight the resulting peritonitis. They too, were NPO before and after their surgeries. They disprove Emily’s “theories” of “hygienic fasting”.

  429. #429 lilady
    January 24, 2012

    “When you are one out of many amongst a pit of lions,you cannot cover everything. Just call me Daniel!”

    You can’t soar like an eagle, when you hang out with turkeys.

    Just what is a “hygienics”, “hygienic fasting” and why does Emily hang out with turkeys?

  430. #430 Emily
    January 24, 2012

    Lilady @ 423:

    Well then that’s convinced me. I have had the evidence in front of my eyes for the past week & have now just seen the light. Thank you lilady for enlightening me. I don’t know why I didn’t realise it before but I am indebted to you for opening my eyes.

    Those 3 cases you mention have really woken me up to the fact that…….. you really don’t know what you are talking about.

    I hope you confine yourself to research because God help the patients if you practice. Then again, I should have got the message when you tried to debunk Professor Collignon- what a pathetic criticism : “he’s on the wrong side of the issue… based on a few weak studies” Are you a comedian?

    You should have said ” Professor Collignon is wrong because he has dared to criticise vaccinations. How dare he? This is the Holy Grail. He must be punished. To Coventry you go, with Wakefield & all the other blasphemites!”

    Please keep it coming- you reinforce my confidence blog by blog! Even my kids know more about how to avoid disease than you do.

  431. #431 T-reg
    January 24, 2012

    Emily, please tell me how fasting, which is a cultural practice where I come from, has not been able to cure illnesses in my family till date.

  432. #432 herr doktor bimler
    January 24, 2012

    You should have said ” Professor Collignon is wrong because he has dared to criticise vaccinations. How dare he? This is the Holy Grail. He must be punished. To Coventry you go, with Wakefield & all the other blasphemites!”

    What I have said is “Professor Collignon did not say what you claim he said; please stop lying.”

  433. #433 Narad
    January 24, 2012

    Show me where natural hygiene has become a handmaiden to any supposedly “natural” things (vitamin megadoses, homeopathy etc)?

    The fact that Natural Hygiene rejects its competition in the marketplace of crackpot belief systems does not somehow elevate it, Emily.

  434. #434 LW
    January 24, 2012

    I knew about Natural Hygiene because it was described in How Superstition Won and Science Lost. I had no idea that it still existed until Emily showed up. But then, old woo never dies.

    I also had no idea that anti-vaxxers existed until I started reading this blog. I thought they were a bit of a joke, like Flat Earthers, but they are deadly serious.

  435. #435 Science Mom
    January 24, 2012

    I have never seen anyone with a thyroid malignancy is what I should have said, but I have seen many with Graves & Hashimotos recover without drugs & many with thyroid nodules/tumours recover without drugs.

    When then Emily, do these cases not make it into the medical literature? This would be an important finding and should be shared with the medical community but it does have to be well-documented with the appropriate medical records. Why isn’t this in the literature again?

  436. #436 LW
    January 24, 2012

    Science Mom @433:

    Emily can cure lupus too:

    “Lupus is hopelessly treated medically, yet quite easily & successfully recovered from through the application of natural hygiene principles.”

    Strange, really, how she never responds to requests for proof.

  437. #437 Calli Arcale
    January 24, 2012

    Emily:

    And by the way, fasting & starving are NOT the same thing.

    The only difference between fasting and starving is that the former is done intentionally. Otherwise, they are the same. And yes, if you fast long enough, tissue will be broken down by your body. Just look at activists on long-term hunger strikes; they’re not in good shape. I would be very intrigued to know what, in you mind, makes fasting different from starvation, and how it can prevent the damage that starvation causes.

    And honestly, do you seriously think people are going to believe you when you say you’ve seen people spontaneously recover from things like Grave’s Disease or appendicitis but decline to provide any evidence of this? You’re claiming to have seen medical miracles and asking us to simply take your word for it. Seriously?

  438. #438 Beamup
    January 24, 2012

    I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that Emily is engaging in the practice known variously as “making s*** up” or “lying through her teeth.”

  439. #439 Denice Walter
    January 24, 2012

    @ flip ( @ 419, at present)

    Ah, you read me wrong!I wasn’t necessarily recommending _counselling_ *but* I was pushing you toward reading theoretical ideas and research about cognitive approaches and attributions: how what we think and *how* we think can make depression better or worse- not neglecting the biological underpinnings at all, which you probably know about in detail. Because we are biological entities that think and talk, sometimes it is possible to train yourself into becoming your own therapist- read what students in the field might.

    As to the art: here’s a quote I like: Mr Turner’s painting was criticised for its “indistinctness”. His response: “Indistinctness is my forte.” Believe it or not, it’s relevant because he was trying to capture light, we’re trying to talk about ephermal thought-feelings.

  440. #440 Shay
    January 24, 2012

    You’re not a Daniel, Emily. You’re a Habakkuk, but unfortunately being one of the just who lives by faith is not a scientifically supportable position.

    You have made a number of statements/claims that contradict research and study, statements for which you can’t provide any evidence, statements for which you demand acceptance because after all, you’ve seen it with your own eyes and you know what you’re talking about.

    I’m not a scientist, I’m a military historian, and you would get laughed out of the building if you tried this schtick in my field, as well.

  441. #441 Denice Walter
    January 24, 2012

    @ flip:

    I have a comment in moderation for you and it’s
    not what you may think: I am not *at all* telling you to get counselling.

  442. #442 Chris
    January 24, 2012

    Calli Arcale:

    The only difference between fasting and starving is that the former is done intentionally.

    And in some religions fasting means only eating between dusk and dawn. And even then children and pregnant women are exempted.

    I am with Beamup, I think Emily is now just making stuff up. Or to be charitable, she lives in her own fantasy world. Though I admit putting up with her was worth it to read flip wrote.

    flip, I wish all the best to you. I know how that illness takes its toll an a person, and the whole family.

  443. #443 Rowrbazzle!
    January 24, 2012

    Beamup #436:

    I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that Emily is engaging in the practice known variously as “making s*** up” or “lying through her teeth.”

    And I’m increasingly coming to the conclusion that Emily is engaging in the practice of what I call “side stepping”, or what in military parlance is known as flanking maneuvers.

    She attacks Point A. When you defend Point A, she side steps to attack Point B while ignoring Point A. This side stepping continues through Points X, Y and Z until she finally returns to Point A and the game starts all over again.

  444. #444 Scottynuke
    January 24, 2012

    @Rowrbazzle! — I’d say Emily is executing the military maneuver known to Monty Python fans as “running away.”

    @flip — I wish you continued success in dealing with those issues, and your Orac-ian verbosity is quite welcome here!

  445. #445 flip
    January 24, 2012

    @420 Emily

    I have seen a number of cases in my life. I know what I have observed, the patients know & their families.

    Two things: you still haven’t told us *how* you’ve managed to see these cases. Second thing is that apparently in your world, bias only exists on the part of those mean scientists. We’re all human, which means we’re all prone to make mistakes or post hoc arguments. This applies to you as well, even if you don’t want to admit it. This is why experiments are designed to eliminate as much bias as possible, and why anecdotes – which often come from faulty memory or false correlation – are not permissible evidence. You may believe in it strongly because of your experiences, but just like other humans, your experiences may be tainted by beliefs. There is no way of knowing one way or the other without making records and statistics and data and experiments. This is true whether you’re treating anyone (you may think you’ve cured someone when they don’t return, but it could be they got worse) or whether you’re just believing anecdotal data from those books you’ve been posting about. See if you’d learn to use Pubmed, you could actually read the data itself, in make your own mind up and see if any of it correlates with your own experiences. If it doesn’t, then you could further investigate why. You may lead back to the same conclusion – it works – but it would be more honest, and although misguided, I would respect you for it. As of now, I have no opinion one way or the other because you don’t state *how* you have come to have this knowledge.

    The cases have not been methodically recorded for data in any study, for reasons I’ve stated before.

    I may have missed it, but I don’t recall you stating any reasons for not being recorded in data. If you did, I’m sorry, either restate the reasons or give the comment number where you did. At any rate, your Health Promoting website link shows that at least some organisations do produce data, at least from what they say in their PR. Even if you don’t, they or someone else does record it: so why not link to it? And why is it so wrong for them to record it? How do they measure how effective the treatments are if they don’t make records? What they just go by memory? How do they judge from one patient visit to the next how well the patient is doing if they don’t make notes? How do they figure out what contraindications there are – and Health Promoting listed a few – if they don’t make experiments or record these things?

    But in the hands of a skilled & competent hygienist, fasting used appropriately can obviate the need for much surgery & medications in many, many cases of disease.

    Except you never say why it’s not useful for some things and not others, nor do you explain how fasting is beneficial for those things which you claim it works for.

    I really don’t care if you so enamored with eminence, er evidence-based medicine that you think no one but medically trained doctors can read & use their brains & their common sense.

    Where’s that bingo card? Ah there it is – check one, “different ways of knowing” fallacy.

    I don’t really care that your enamoured with your worldview. You evidently have no reading comprehension nor actual understanding of bias and ‘common sense’. You evidently trust you senses far more than you should.

    The problem with you & your ilk is that you think that just because most of the alternative health information is nonsense, which it is, that everything else that challenges the medical system, without PubMed references, is just as much nonsense.

    Actually I know absolutely nothing about Natural Hygiene and have no opinion of it. In fact, I rarely read anything about medical science because it’s not my interest. Outside of a few things on vaccines, I am not aware of many of medical issues and ideas out there. You piqued my interest and I am trying to understand how it works. So far all I know is that Natural Hygiene is some sort of fasting process, and that what SBM considers causes of illnesses aren’t actually causes, but something else causes things and what that is hasn’t been explained. That the sum of what I got from your comments and from the little I’ve read due to your references.

    But your replies to me are not definitive enough to answer my questions, and I still don’t understand how it works. Maybe that’s the fault of your ability to describe it, or maybe it’s that it is indeed nonsense. I don’t think I’ll ever know if it’s the former rather than the latter. But if you were the PR person for it, you’re not doing a good job. Even a PR person knows how to explain their position in less than an A4 page. You’ve had plenty of opportunity and words to do it, and I still don’t know how it works. That doesn’t make it nonsense medically, it does however, make it incomprehensible to the average person.

    Natural hygiene as a system does not purport to have all the answers, but after studying this for many years, it has more than the drugging medical business.

    None of which you can actually post because it a: doesn’t exist, b: isn’t relevant because there are other ways of ‘knowing’, or c: because ….? You keep saying there are answers, but you refuse to post any. Wonder why that is…

    Even Dr Marcia Angell, editor of the NEJM for 20 years, recognized that modern medicine was suffering because of its unholy matrimony to big pharma: “The FDA is now so dependent on the pharmaceutical industry,it has become big pharma’s handmaiden” from ‘The Truth about the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us & What to do About it’ p242.

    Somebody please turn the record over. It’s stuck on the same song.

    Was she a quack too because she din’t supply PubMed references?

    You obviously don’t understand what Pubmed is. It’s a website that catalogues and allows one to search online published papers on a number of scientific topics. This allows one to find and read many papers which might ellucidate some answers on the issue of whether or not Natural Hygiene is efficacious, whether or not there are risks and what they are, what the limitations or contraindications are, etc. It allows one to gain an overall understanding of the progress of a particular treatment, as well as the individual papers that make up that progress, if it’s progressed at all. You post a quote from a book. Books are not papers, and depending on how bad the author/editor is, may not reference papers on the subject; or may misquote, cherry pick or otherwise bias the impression of the reader as to the true nature of the topic at hand.

    This is why we like Pubmed, it allows us to find and read the actual papers referenced, and see for ourselves the actual data behind the subject. That’s what scepticism is: finding and reading the data and not taking someone’s word for it.

    Even if I were to find a book well-written and the person’s opinion I agreed with, it does not mean that the same book or author has been entirely correct. Furthmore, books and experiments take many years to write, and even more to research. In the time it takes to get the book/paper through editorial oversight and printing, new experiments have taken place which give new information that can greatly change the nature of the understanding of that subject. This means that books can be extremely out of date very quickly: and why Pubmed is preferred because one can find the latest info as it is published and get a better and more up-to-date perspective of the whole.

    Reliance on one book or paper is not a good idea, because it doesn’t fully encompass the data on the subject. Reliance on one book or paper suggests an unwillingness to read the whole, and an even greater unwillingness to consider that a subject must be judged not just on the ‘proofs’ but also on the ‘disproofs’ as well. If one outweighs the other, then we can lean towards agreeing with proven or unproven. When new evidence for either side is given, we adjust our position accordingly. That is what science does, and that is totally NOT what you seem to be doing.

    You have picked a side and are unreluctant to see any wrong in it or any nuance. Real life doesn’t work like that.

    Now, you ask if she was a quack: was that quote you posted from an interview, part of the book itself (ie. she’s the author), was she being true and honest about the situation, was she cherry picking… etc? I don’t know. If I had opportunity to read the book, and the accompanying data surrounding the issue (large as it would be), then I could say whether she’s talking out of her ass or not. But without that, I’m simply going to say: I don’t know, and it doesn’t change the following one little bit:

    You can poke holes all you like in other people’s science, but it does not, REPEAT IT DOES NOT prove your treatment efficacious and with little risk. Posting quotes from authorities about the nature of medicine DOES NOT PROVE YOUR TREATMENT TO WORK.

    Which is why we ask for data, you idiot. And if you have none to provide, then yes, you won’t convince us, because we’re not going to take someone’s word for it. You tell me the sky is red, I expect you to explain how you know that and how I can prove it for myself; I do not expect you to simply say “I’ve seen it with my own eyes”. Eyes can lie to you. So can people.

    The other thing you seem to be implying with this little evasion is that it won’t be in Pubmed because SBM is conspiring to prevent any criticism. To which I say: how did you find out about Natural Hygiene if it’s so well hidden? The people who are for it are writing books, and have organisations/facilities, and are quoted in things. Do they not have enough funds to produce experiments or publish their own papers? Or are they simply not doing it because there are “other ways of knowing”. (Except of course, we all need to use language in order to communicate ideas, which means there’s only one way of finding out about Natural Hygiene: through communication) Apt for this thread, you’ve got a little “brave maverick” about you.

    @428 Emily

    You should have said ” Professor Collignon is wrong because he has dared to criticise vaccinations. How dare he? This is the Holy Grail. He must be punished. To Coventry you go, with Wakefield & all the other blasphemites!”

    This just proves how ignorant you are of how science works. There’s plenty of debate, large and small, within the scientific community. Heck, they even ask for other people to help them from time to time – if you follow any astronomy news of the ‘faster than light’ atoms that happened last year. That you think criticism is not allowed shows you to be completely on the side of CAM where this canard is used often. Is there any CAM tactic you *don’t* use?

    Another thing you don’t understand is a risk/benefit analysis. Honestly, I wonder what the education system is like – I learned this stuff in high school. Those who were critical weren’t wrong *because* they were critical, but because they didn’t fully understand the risk/benefit of the vaccine at the time. (Speaking of putting words in people’s mouths. Oh yes, strawman. Check another off the bingo card)

    You never list what Natural Hygiene works for, although you drop illness names like they were celebrities; you never state *how* it works, as though ‘fast’ is some sort of biological mechanism or process in itself; you can’t give a list of contraindications or risks, although you state it’s not for every illness or person; you can’t explain why no nurses are provided at a facility that uses fasting for a ‘health improvement program'; you can’t prove your position by attacking ours…. I could go on, but I won’t.

    Even my kids know more about how to avoid disease than you do.

    Tell me what you tell them about avoiding depression. Teens go through a lot of anxiety, and I’d like to know what you advised them to do when dealing with it.

    Actually, I’ll retract every single question and request for data and you can get away from your Pubmed issues, if you can just answer this one:

    What did I do/why as a 10 year old kid to become depressed, what could I have done to cure it, and why haven’t I “self healed” even though I’ve been ‘fasting’?

    Answer that one. Answer it succinctly, in a way a non-medico could understand, without grandstanding. If Natural Hygiene isn’t a suitable treatment for it, say so, that’s fine, but then tell me what *is* a good treatment instead and why Natural Hygiene isn’t a good treatment. You answer that one, I’ll go away and open-mindedly investigate it further. Heck, I’m not a fan of anti-depressants, having tried it once upon a time, and met with some crappy doctors too; I’m interested in learning about other methods of treatment. I’m happy to investigate other options and apparently Pubmed doesn’t scare me as much as it scares you. I’ll read your books and your sites too, if you can succinctly point to where they discuss depression treatments. You answer that one, and I’ll lay off the rest.

  446. #446 flip
    January 24, 2012

    @424, T-reg

    Wow! I’m glad I wasn’t spouting Emily’s nonsense. I’m sorry for your having to struggle with depression. I hope things turn for the better for you.

    I’m glad you weren’t too – particularly as I’ve read a number of wonderful comments from you which were quite impressive in detail and conciseness. Made me think a lot, and I bookmarked a few for future reference. Thanks for your kind thoughts, and I hope so too.

    @425 Emily

    When you are one out of many amongst a pit of lions,you cannot cover everything. Just call me Daniel!

    I think I’ll just call you a goal shifter. Far more fitting.

    @432, LW

    The only anti-vax person I have ever known is a family member. At the time I never quite understood it (I vaguely recall something about resistant strains of viruses due to vaccines, which I now know better refers to antibiotics. It could be my memory is wrong, it could be the family member was misinformed), but as they are one of the nicer members and certainly much cooler than the rest, I ignored it. As I’ve got older and more into science reading, I also know now that they practice iridology, along with many other CAM things. Suddenly I am able to understand what they are talking about and how fallacious it all is.

    @436 Beamup

    I came to that conclusion ages ago. But it is fun to point out just how much she can’t answer any question, even if it should be self-evident. I particularly love how she claims we’re close-minded but then I read her references and show how wrong she is in what it states. I’d love to see her try and answer the stuff about Health Promoting. Surely it’s a good idea to have a staff member available for assistance at a ‘health treatment’ facility, especially at night. Nobody could possibly be that deluded to think no staff should be on hand. Even if they do think doctors/nurses are useless. Someone trained in first aid is always necessary, no matter what environment.

    @437 Denice

    Yes, sorry, I misunderstood. I do agree that that might be useful, as I’ve sort of learned a lot of cognitive approaches over the years – not that I knew that’s what I was doing – but of course, much of what I am doing could be wrong and it’s not like they might not have other, or better, ideas. When I have the chance I’ll look into it, thanks.

    The art is an odd thing. My introduction to science is relatively new, and has actually influenced my art to the point where I’m no longer interested in anything that expresses the ‘human condition’. Art has become far too inward and introspective on human issues/feelings, and in my particular medium, has become far too non-science based. I am currently on a path towards reworking my business so that it is more pro-science, without losing any of the fun or enjoyment of art for art’s sake. (Kind of like Tim Minchin but less obvious about the scepticism and for a different area of art) In fact, I find that this new combination of art and science is leaving me feeling more fulfilled as both a sceptic and artist.

    @440 Chris

    Though I admit putting up with her was worth it to read flip wrote… flip, I wish all the best to you. I know how that illness takes its toll an a person, and the whole family.

    Thanks and thanks :)

    @442 Scottynuke

    I wish you continued success in dealing with those issues, and your Orac-ian verbosity is quite welcome here!

    Ah, you noticed. ;) I really must try to curb myself! And thank you also.

  447. #447 flip
    January 24, 2012

    @443, myself….

    I want to clarify this:

    You can poke holes all you like in other people’s science, but it does not, REPEAT IT DOES NOT prove your treatment efficacious and with little risk. Posting quotes from authorities about the nature of medicine DOES NOT PROVE YOUR TREATMENT TO WORK.

    What I meant was that you can poke holes in other treatment options and in medicine/science on a whole, but disproving hypothesis A does not by default prove hypothesis B to be true. This is a typical creationist tactic, and a fairly obvious one that you’re attempting to use. That SBM or CAM does not work does not by default prove that Natural Hygiene does.

    … And this:

    This just proves how ignorant you are of how science works. There’s plenty of debate, large and small, within the scientific community. Heck, they even ask for other people to help them from time to time – if you follow any astronomy news of the ‘faster than light’ atoms that happened last year.

    By “help” I meant criticism – they were asking for help in the form of healthy debate, expecting other scientists to find holes in their work in order to solve a problem with their data. They actually asked their ‘competitors’, other scientists to bash their data to bits. That’s how accepting of criticism scientists are.

  448. #448 Narad
    January 24, 2012

    I’ll read your books and your sites too, if you can succinctly point to where they discuss depression treatments.

    Keep in mind that entrenched quaintness of Natural Hygiene suggests that one should also include “melancholy” when investigating such topics. Let’s check with the esteemed Dr. Cursio:

    Hippocrates saw in hemorrhoids an effort of Nature to help the organism and wrote–“When hemorrhoids appear in melancholy and kidney ailments it is good.”

    I do not wish to convey, nor do I believe Hippocrates wanted to, that piles are something to be sought after.. What I wish to stress is that they are the result of Nature’s effort to help the organism, and to remove the piles without removing the cause is dangerous. The primary causes are the unnatural habits of living that are productive of the systemic state that gives rise to the manifestation known as hemorrhoids.

    There is but one cause, one “disease,” and one treatment–Hygiene.

  449. #449 lilady
    January 24, 2012

    Emily…you haven’t answered any of my questions:

    1. Where did you received your science education?

    2. Where did you ever “teach” health sciences?

    3. What degree do you possess?

    4. What health care professional licenses do you have?

    5. What is “hygienics”?

    6. What is a hygienist?

    It’s fun playing bullsh** bingo with Emily!

  450. #450 Narad
    January 24, 2012

    On to Master Shelton on melancholia:

    Care of the Patient: The profound enervation evident in these cases calls for prolonged rest. The evident failure of the gastro-intestinal tract makes attention to feeding most important. A fast not only rests the greatly debilitated digestive system, but permits elimination of toxins. Toxins must be kept low. The environment must be changed and the mind diverted. The whole mode of living must be ordered in conformity with the laws of life. All enervating influences require correction and much patience and time are required.

    See? Simple. You fast, then presumably go on fruit-meals or something, develop hemorrhoids (maybe it’s the opposite order on these two), stop your deviation from the Law of Life, and you’re good to go.

  451. #451 alison
    January 24, 2012

    Flip @443 – simply superb! :-)

    Narad @ 448 – if the fruit-meals included a couple of kiwifruit, you’d very definitely be ‘good to go’!

  452. #452 OccamsLaser
    January 24, 2012

    Emily –

    If you would, please answer a question I have.

    Should people eat even if they aren’t hungry? If not, why not? That is, what principle would they be at odds with?

  453. #453 Denice Walter
    January 24, 2012

    @ flip:

    Altho’ art can be “the mirror of the invisible world”** of emotion and dream, it can also be a way to understand external reality- how the world is put together and how it “works”. Oddly enough, my own background includes art as well as science and is too complicated to explain here( if you added the complex family, work history and relationships- it looks like a friggen cat’s cradle)

    One theme has always resonated with me- and works against being morose- is the concept of *agency*: the idea of being an active agent, creating change through effort. I always sought to improve my own abilities ( whatever they may be) by active work, planning and perserverance. I know that sounds old-fashioned- my father used to say,”If one thing doesn’t work, try something else”- but ideas like this also show up in research about “resiliance” and depression. I work on projects and on myself- I usually have several irons in the fire.

    Expression and communication are not to be sneezed at either.

    ** phrase stolen from Nizami.

  454. #454 Emily
    January 25, 2012

    To Flip @ 443:

    I have been acutely short of time so will have to address other aspects your tome at another date.

    BTW the main mistake I made when I started blogging was to blog on 2 different areas simultaneuosly- this one & the Burzynski issue, & as a result I have put many blogs down with different content, but don’t know where I’ve stated what. Mistake. I know! I know- your troops will say that this mistake pales into insignificance compared to the content I’ve delivered.

    As far as depression goes, I have never stated that fasting would be appropriate. I NEVER recommend it. There are many health issues where fasting is not appropriate, just as there are many conditions where it is not only appropriate, but desirable.

    I do not know why you developed this insidious illness at 10 years of age. But you have my sincere sympathy.

    But I do know there is help, & have seen many people get on top of this “black dog”, including one of my best friends who had become suicidal.

    They have done so by a combination of techniques, which you would probably label fringe, & recoil from. I’m talking about meditation, EFT, CBT & of course, a hygienic lifestyle (this is NOT fasting). This latter point is crucial, in my experience.

    Of course, there is your beloved medication, & in certain cases, I agree this is essential.

    I must close now, but I will get back to you re the other issues you raised.

  455. #455 Chris
    January 25, 2012

    Emily:

    I must close now, but I will get back to you re the other issues you raised.

    Like the question I asked you over ten days ago? Seriously why did measles incidence in the USA drop 90% between 1960 and 1970, and have never been half as high again?

    Come on, it is a very simple question that you brought upon yourself when you claimed:

    Let the truth be known. Vaccinations had very little, if anything, to do with the decline in infectious diseases over the past 100 years. The rate of mortality & morbidity declined because of improved social conditions, which occurred well before the introduction of vaccines or anti-biotiocs.

    Stop avoiding it. Answer or just go away.

  456. #456 Denice Walter
    January 25, 2012

    @ lurkers- I have a few moments and just can’t allow the following:”meditation, CBT, EFT & of course, a hygienic lifestyle” as possible therapies for depression.

    That group is like talking about apples, oranges, jet planes and sealing wax in the same breath… maybe even worse. CBT ( see wikpedia for a reasonable synopsis)is a SB option that uses primarily cognitive strategies to help people cope with various emotional problems- while it may not be the best way to address SMI, it has been shown to be useful for many other problems including depression. Often it is used in conjunction with meds.

    Meditation has been used to very variable effect and is not my main concern here; hygiene has been dealt with, but EFT. EFT!! Emotional Freedom technique involves tapping accupuncture points and meridians to deal with psychological issues: it has been promoted by scions of alt med like Mercola ( see Mercola.com) as an alternative to medication. Its main problem is that accupuncture points and meridians do not exist ( Orac has de-constructed accupuncture – see search box) so I can’t fathom how tapping non-existent energy vortexes or chi whirlpools would do anything other than waste time and money. It can be argued that it distracts the sufferer: true, it is like most other forms of woo- it distracts you from reality. Because they deny the efficacy of meds, alt med providers must replace them with something, even if that something is imaginary.

  457. #457 flip
    January 25, 2012

    @446 Narad

    So what you’re saying is Natural Hygiene is merely a revert to the four humors? Aka, the fallacy that life was better during Victorian (or whatever) times – aka the romantic notion of the good old days?

    Minus perhaps the bloodletting I guess. Interesting that they seem stuck in the past but willing give up more icky things like bloodletting.

    The primary causes are the unnatural habits of living that are productive of the systemic state that gives rise to the manifestation known as hemorrhoids.

    Ah, now I see where Emily gets her ambiguity from. No one else defines these “habits”, so why should she?

    @448 Narad

    A fast not only rests the greatly debilitated digestive system, but permits elimination of toxins. Toxins must be kept low.

    The toxins gambit sounds exactly like the four humors. The extracts you post remind me of something a friend said once: you can make anything sound deep if you say it the right way. In other words, a lot of statements, but no info on how or why it works.

    @449 Alison

    Thanks again!

    @451 Denice

    I agree with work and occupation, and also find it a good way to avoid the bad thoughts. However, at the moment, motivation is lacking and so work is not helping much right now. Change has not so much motivated me either, more a need just to preoccupy myself.

  458. #458 flip
    January 25, 2012

    Apologies again, it’s a long one. I decided to do some ‘homework’ and read up on NH.

    @452 Emily

    I know- your troops will say that this mistake pales into insignificance compared to the content I’ve delivered.

    My troops? Did you not see the comment where I said that I’m new here? I couldn’t command anyone: I’ve never even virtually met them before I started replying to your comments. Even if I was here before, they wouldn’t listen to me because sceptics tend not to think much of authority.

    However, I do understand and agree with you on this point. I follow several blogs and forums and it’s hard to keep track of all the conversations. I don’t think any less of you for it, and it has nothing to with my opinion of Natural Hygiene or your arguments for it.

    As far as depression goes, I have never stated that fasting would be appropriate. I NEVER recommend it. There are many health issues where fasting is not appropriate, just as there are many conditions where it is not only appropriate, but desirable.

    Thank you for finally and honestly answering a question. This in fact brings you a point in your favour. Now: why does fasting only work for some things, where can I find a list of those things, and why does it not work for depression? What mechanism in the body does fasting work on?

    Also, since you mention it further down, why would “hygienic living” help? Especially if I’m doing most of the things that NH already recommends? How come it’s not working? How does “hygienic living” actually treat depression?

    I do not know why you developed this insidious illness at 10 years of age. But you have my sincere sympathy.

    Thank you. But why can’t Natural Hygiene give a reason for it? Isn’t it a modality for all forms of health problems? I’ve read a few other sites now, and my confusion is: if the body self heals, why does it only self heal for some things and not others? If it only works for some things, then the definitions of NH are misleading. In every single case I found no definition that outright said “it works for X, but not Y” or “it works for everything”. In fact, each one was vague to the point of being useless in describing exactly what NH treats.

    And you know what’s funny: all definitions suggest that if you’re sick, you’re not living the right way. How is that not victim blaming?

    They have done so by a combination of techniques, which you would probably label fringe, & recoil from. I’m talking about meditation, EFT, CBT & of course, a hygienic lifestyle (this is NOT fasting). This latter point is crucial, in my experience.

    Um, I don’t know what those acronyms mean. Putting “EFT” into google I get Mercola’s Emotional Freedom Technique and a few other similar sounding sites. A brief read reveals they are “energy” based (of course, those “hidden” energies that somehow have escaped notice of even quantum mechanists). Mercola’s site suggests that ‘hidden trauma’ causes these illnesses. It sounds like a tarted up form of meditation and counselling, only with less clarity in explaining how it works, and the addition of more victim-blaming (you’re just not remembering, try harder!) and the potential for introducing false memories and causing sufferers to start to believe that they were somehow mistreated as children (which is just adding more distress).

    CBT I assume means cognitive behavioural therapy, which is not at all fringe and is commonly prescribed by doctors along with medications. (Meds being more of a temporary treatment whilst behavioural therapy is undertaken and improvements more difficult to obtain immediately; depending on severity of course)

    Meditation too I’ve heard recommended, seeing as how it can be a way to deal with stress. Again, not fringe, although this one is recommended less than therapy and usually by people who are more interested in CAM.

    What is “hygienic lifestyle” if it’s not fasting? How can I do it myself?

    On a personal level, none of your suggestions except CBT would sound good to me. I’ve tried meditation and it only makes me bored (boredom being a good precursor to a depressive mood); CBT was suggested but not taken up due to a lousy experience at the time with the shrink; EFT would only make me roll my eyes because they can’t explain or show this “energy” (I fell for Qi gong once upon a time, same premise); and the final suggestion of ‘hygienic lifestyle’ leaves me baffled. Most of the things you suggest rely entirely upon a victim-blaming premise, whereby “positive thinking” magically cancels out suicidal feelings.

    I’ll tell you right there that it doesn’t. It’s not just a thought: it causes many physical attributes you can’t control. You can’t “positive think” away the need to cry, or the lethargy, or the anger, or the loss of appetite, or the many other emotions and thoughts. CBT works because it teaches you to manage these things and recognise when/why they happen. Meds work because they deal with the underlying chemical/biological cause. Meditation minimally works because it helps you deal with stress (although many people I know state that reading a book, or other quiet activities, do just as well). Sitting there talking about how positive energy will fix things is just another way of saying “you’re not trying hard enough”. This is like letting an alcoholic continue drinking whilst berating them they’re just not trying hard enough; it ignores the underlying problem and instead places the blame on a magical invisible entity that usually just refers back to some sort of screwed up karmic thing that *you’ve* done wrong. Of course no one ever explains *what* you’re doing wrong, just that you’ve got to keep trying. It’s victim blaming bullshit and though you think you’re not doing it, you are. (Also see, Denice’s comment @454)

    The good news is that you’ve shown even more how into CAM you are. So much for your fence-sitting.

    Of course, there is your beloved medication, & in certain cases, I agree this is essential.

    It’s not my ‘beloved’ anything. I’ve only ever been on one kind of anti-depressant and the side effects were worse than the illness. It also made me numb emotionally. I do agree it should be recommended, and used, and think it’s improving all the time, but if you think I am so in love with SBM that I can’t see its faults you must be blind or cherry-picking what you read – I did mention this dislike above. Like all medications and treatments, there are *risks* and there are *benefits* something you continually prove you don’t understand.

    I can say one other good thing though: it’s made me go read up on NH and fasting. I’m even more underwhelmed at the lack of clarity and even more enlightened at simply learning something new. That is, NH seems to be based on the premise of ‘living right’ (ignore that it’s never defined what is ‘right’) and that fasting has been studied quite a bit.

    From what I’ve read so far, NH does nothing that SBM doctors don’t already recommend, minus the fasting.

    The proponent, Shelton, not only had run-ins with the law (including for practicing without a licence) but also died from a disease even though he could ‘self heal’. That’s encouraging ;)

    I’ve read a few other sites than the ones recommended by Emily and am only convinced that it’s just normal recommendations made by SBM about preventative health measures, with fasting and Kosher-sounding premises for food thrown in and a liking for the “good old days”; and as Orac has suggested, the alliance with this makes CAM practices sound more ‘natural’ and ‘common sense’ than SBM even though it’s not; and worse, does it without clarity or specificity to what it is, how it works and when/why one should use it. (PS. I read both sceptical sites and pro-NH sites, so I could decide for myself. See, scepticism works that way; not by avoiding any opinion you don’t agree with)

    I find it extremely telling that these pro-NH sites never ever state *how* they know what they know. They just repeat some vague definition or statement as if it’s self-evident. There’s case “stories” (note, not “studies”), articles, FAQs, books and way too much reliance on quotes… but no experiments. One wonders if they know how to create one. And again, that’s something that I learned to do in high school. This is just from the first few sites I looked at alone.

    Feel free to come back and answer more questions Emily. Because the more I read, the more confused I get.

    Random speculation:

    I find that the “good old days” tactic seems to appeal to a certain feeling we modern humans have. Stuck in a cubicle? Sick of living in pre-fab houses? Tired of the constant blaring of soul-sucking TV? Here, pretend you’re in Pride & Prejudice as we take you on a romantic healthy tour of the English countryside, where illness only happened to the poor and unhygienic. A good fantasy with greased lens that makes everything shine and look fresh, green and lush; perfect to remind you that maybe your headache from the kids screaming would go away if you just ate like a Georgian upper-class citizen. (Ignoring the fact that quality/freshness of food has also gone up over time, along with medical discoveries; not to mention that TV is hardly representative of the actual appearance of the places/people of the time) It’s another stab at the “I wasn’t there/didn’t see it, so it doesn’t happen” tactic, only with romance threwn in and the reminder that we have more synthetic materials around. Cement isn’t new folks: the Romans invented it. And they died from plenty of illnesses, even if they were more ‘natural’ or ‘harmonious’ in lifestyle.

    I think this particular tactic also is conveniently tailored to sucker women in, who feel trapped in modern life/kids/family, who feel disharmonious (because humans have walked away from it in their logic), and want to be healthier but don’t have the money for a personal trainer; are educated enough to not be living in an area where they see the reality of the illnesses/treatments they ignore, but have benefited from vaccines/SBM because of their parents use of them; and are secretly wishing they could go back when “things were simpler”. Or in the case of one quote I saw, “a return to pristine living”, as if it ever actually existed. Yes, life was so darn good for those first agriculturists; they lived on plains in fresh air, ate fresh organic food; didn’t have junk food; sat with their kids in the long summer nights; got plenty of exercise; and never, ever got sick…. It just sounds so lovely compared to our modern lives.

    This also explains some of Emily’s conglomeration of woo that has one thing in common: it all promotes “ancient” remedies, reverting to romantic notions of life or how the body works, and tries to find harmony without actually doing anything useful at all. (My above comments on reasons for accepting this stuff is general and not aimed necessarily at you Emily.)

  459. #459 Narad
    January 25, 2012

    Mercola’s site suggests that ‘hidden trauma’ causes these illnesses. It sounds like a tarted up form of meditation and counselling, only with less clarity in explaining how it works, and the addition of more victim-blaming

    I overlooked the EFT bit on first pass, but it does remind me of something. The trauma angle isn’t Natural Hygiene, it’s Ryke Geerd Hamer. The initial pleomorphism babble initially made me wonder whether Emily was peddling GNM. Perhaps it simply oozed in without recognizing that it’s not really compatible with Shelton.

    The good news is that you’ve shown even more how into CAM you are.

    This requires qualification. While there were technical squabbles within the NH blob, Shelton rejected *other* systematized forms of nonsense, so syncretism is out. This is presumably why Emily stresses her rejection of any woo (save the One True Woo).

  460. #460 flip
    January 25, 2012

    @456 Narad

    Interesting read that Ryke Geerd Hamer. Apparently I have been in both pre- and post-resolution phases at the same time as I have insomnia and allergies. I wonder what happens if the conflict within the person is the wish not to die from cancer; do they recommend chemo then? ;)
    The anti-semetic stuff is mind boggling.

    I disagree with the qualification only slightly. In that pretty much every argument she uses is a typical one you could find being used by any woo merchant. Even if she’s not promoting or accepting other woo ideas, she certainly has regurgitated all their PR. Otherwise, yes I agree and retract the comment.

    While I’m here… is there any way to subscribe to a post’s comments only? I can find the RSS for the blog, but not to the comments.

  461. #461 Emily
    January 25, 2012

    The human body is self-developing, self-healing & self-defending. Axioms. Self-evident. No need for proof or debate.

    However, it is not always successful. If someone inhails smoke, they will cough. The symptopm of coughing is self- defensive in nature, at all times & under all conditions.

    If there is overwhelming smoke being inhaled, the coughing reflex will be overwhelmed, & the result will be death. Just because the coughing wasn’t successful in saving life, in no way discredits coughing as self-defensive!

    Vomiting up a poison is self-defensive. Whether the action is successful or not is dependent upon many factors, including the volume & toxicity of the poison, the vitality of the person etc. If the system is overwhelmed, this again does not invalidate the fact that this symptom is self- defensive.

    A laceration causes a cascade of bio-chemical activity at the injured site, including, especially, inflammation. This inflammation is self- repairing in nature, under all conditions & circumstances. If the laceration is severe, the regulatory processes of the body may be overwhelmed & end unsuccessfully. The person might bleed to death. Again, this does not mean the symptom is no longer self-repairing. It will continue until death at the cellular level, which is where & when all defensive & reparatory processes end.

    Chronic disease always includes chronic symptoms &/or signs. This is because of chronic irritation through the continuation of various causes in the person’s lifestyle/dietstyle, plus a minor genetic component.

    For example, people with auto-immune diseases experience chronic pain, inflammation & other symptoms in involved areas, which can possibly lead to destruction of joints & other tissue. The inflammation is mistakenly blamed for this, when in reality it was the causes of the inflammation which are to blame.

    In the Spanish Flu of 1918-9 there were many deaths of young people from secondary bacterial infections such as pneumonia, due to what is believed to be “cytokine storm” –
    inflammatory overload in the lungs especially. The real reason for this was not H1N1 virus, but the host conditions at the time. Terrible nutrition, appalling living conditions, windows shuttered in most places including hospitals, heroic (but often fatal) doses of aspirin & other drugs, fumigation & of course this came immediately at the end of the war with all its privations.

    Natural hygiene is NOT a curative system. It is NOT a treatment plan! It is a way of life which accepts the fundamental principles governing life (mentioned at the start)& tries to provide the organism with conditions conducive for the successful operation of these principles.

    There will be times when circumstances are such that certain interventions are necessary & life-saving.

    That is why NH is not very popular with the alt/med brigade, nor the allopathic lot. There is nothing to sell or lean on except the power of the human body. No gimmicks, no shareholders, no “magic”.

    Experienced NH practitioners have a deep understanding of this power & its limits. The needs & capacities of the individual will determine what course of action will be recommended.

    Like ALL health systems, NH is based on certain theories. Not the 3 principles elaborated at the start, as they are axiomatic, not theoretical.

    Allopathy has its theories of disease such as germ theory, herd theory & free- radical theory, to name a few. Other modalities have their own theories, such as Homeopathy with its own theories of like curing like, as elaborated by Dr Samuel Hannermann.

    NH postulates that disease is caused by enervation & toxemia. I won’t elaborate these fully here, but it’s important to know that enervation (exhaustion of vitality) leads to toxemia.

    The causes of disease are many & varied, influenced by hereditary & genetic factors:

    Poor nutrition, excesses of any kind such as work, exercise, food, sun, sex etc, deficiencies, too little rest & sleep, drugs, alcohol, caffeine, tobacco, sedentariness, stress- the list is long.

    By removing as many causes as possible that are within our control, such as nutritional insults (& this goes far beyond the standard “eat a balanced diet” mantra) & requires a deep knowledge of the subtle causes of enervation & toxemia, & then by providing the appropriate biological conditions upon which health depends, something miraculous happens- health improves, naturally.

    NH has never purported to be the answer to all health issues, but in my very considerable experience, it has far more to offer the vast majority of health problems than any other modality, including allopathy.

  462. #462 attack_laurel
    January 25, 2012

    @flip: It seems Emily ignores anything she can’t answer with vague generalities and unsubstantiated anecdotes. I also “love” (by which I mean loathe) her “your beloved medicine” jab – as anyone who has taken meds long-term for anything knows, it is useful for fixing the problem, but not loved, sought-after, or even much liked. ;)

  463. #463 Narad
    January 26, 2012

    Holy cats. I’m only going to take this in bits, as the whole thing is utterly pointless anyway.

    The human body is self-developing, self-healing & self-defending. Axioms. Self-evident. No need for proof or debate.

    Emily, do you understand that, in constructing an axiomatic system, you don’t get to import homely semantics based on word coincidences?

    For example, people with auto-immune diseases experience chronic pain, inflammation & other symptoms in involved areas, which can possibly lead to destruction of joints & other tissue.

    I’m quite confident in the supposition that you have never actually spoken with a rheumatologist or, really, given the subject the slightest meaningful thought. Pray tell me, O Axiomatic One, whereunto doth the Voice Celestial delivereth its Inflammation upon the Perfectly Created Body in reflection of deviation from the Law of Life that is the surface manifestation which the worshipers at the Altar of So-Called Modern Medicine thriftlessly term “antiphospholipid syndrome”?

    Or, skip that and just go screw yourself (unless you’re fasting, in which case I imagine you’d have to hold off for a bit). You’re just unimaginatively rerunning the Shelton playbook. At least Fenwicke Holmes had style.

  464. #464 alison
    January 26, 2012

    NH postulates that disease is caused by enervation & toxemia.
    Germ theory denial, then?

  465. #465 Narad
    January 26, 2012

    Germ theory denial, then?

    Oh, yes, that’s been made explicit. Germs are the Natural product of so-called disease. Fungi, bacteria, and viruses can all turn one from the other in reflection of something or other.

  466. #466 Chris
    January 26, 2012

    Emily, why did the rate of measles incidence in the USA drop by 90% between 1960 and 1970? Please include real cites in your answer.

    I will remind you that measles causes serious harm in one out of a thousand cases. That included killing around five hundred people per year in the USA and disabling many more, including over 120 during an epidemic just twenty years ago. You keep bringing up “chronic diseases.” Does that also include blindness, paralysis, deafness and permanent neurological impairment?

    Answer the question.

  467. #467 flip
    January 26, 2012

    @171 Scottynuke

    Apologies – I’m an Aussie and am not familiar with the shorthand for most the USA state names.

    @459 Emily

    I see you’re posting the same comment here as on the Burzinsky thread. I don’t know whether that’s more of a time saver for you or for me.

    The human body is self-developing, self-healing & self-defending. Axioms. Self-evident. No need for proof or debate.

    That’s where you’re wrong. Nothing should be considered ‘self evident’, because as I’ve pointed out repeatedly, ‘common sense’ and things we experience can often be wrong. Have you not ever heard of visual illusions? And that’s just one example. “Self evident” is just another way of saying you have anecdotes and nothing else. It was “self evident” that bloodletting was a good idea. Guess how well that worked out once scientists actually began being more self-critical of their ideas. It was “self evident” that the Earth was the centre of the universe. Everything and anything should be looked at critically because that’s how easy it is to be wrong.

    Vomiting up a poison is self-defensive. hether the action is successful or not is dependent upon many factors, including the volume & toxicity of the poison, the vitality of the person etc

    Tell that to a suicidal person next time they down a bottle of pills. Apparently killing yourself that way won’t work on your planet? Funny how many of them have to be taken to hospital and revived because they couldn’t vomit the poison up. (Oh I know, they were just “doing it wrong”. Again) Is this why pill bottles have child safety mechanisms? If vomiting worked so well, parents wouldn’t have to worry about such measures, because their kids would just vomit up whatever they swallowed – and this goes for all those little beads, coins, etc that they manage to swallow too.

    Do you notice how you make all sorts of exceptions to the rule, so that by the end, your rule is irrelevant? You make exceptions here for variables, but mention SBM and you think there is no such thing in relation to treatments and medications. Emily the Contradictor strikes again!

    Your following list of “self evident” actions by the human body is not an answer to the question of how fasting acts on a biological mechanism. You’re purposely avoiding answering with a multitude of irrelevant examples of OTHER biological events.

    Your list does not tell me how Natural Hygiene gets from A to Z. It might tell me things that may or may not happen to the body, but does not tell me what the ‘practice’ of Natural Hygiene actually does. They are not one and the same, even if you think they are.

    Nor does your list explain any of the “causes” of these illnesses as Natural Hygiene sees them.

    Natural hygiene is NOT a curative system. It is NOT a treatment plan! It is a way of life which accepts the fundamental principles governing life (mentioned at the start)& tries to provide the organism with conditions conducive for the successful operation of these principles.

    It’s not a curative system or treatment plan, but you recommend it for treating many conditions which you’ve listed in past comments on this thread. It’s a way of life which happens to use the exact same recommendations – ignoring the fasting – that SBM recommends and most people do anyway to keep healthy. Why bother subscribing to this platform at all? It seems to me that you could just as easily go along with SBM and simply avoid medications as much as possible without actually committing yourself to being a Natural Health subscriber.

    That is why NH is not very popular with the alt/med brigade, nor the allopathic lot. There is nothing to sell or lean on except the power of the human body. No gimmicks, no shareholders, no “magic”.

    Yes, feel free to ignore yet another one of my rebuttals. Natural Hygiene has organisations (to which at least one you must pay a fee to be a member of), facilities, books, courses, and other things. There ARE things to sell, and your argument that Natural Hygiene is ignored because of lack of profits is incredibly ridiculous.

    Experienced NH practitioners have a deep understanding of this power & its limits. The needs & capacities of the individual will determine what course of action will be recommended.

    None of which you can describe in detail. At least with a medication I get a list of contraindications and risks, as well as benefits, for a variety of applications if there exists more than one. Natural Hygiene as described by you can only say “it works for some things, but not others and there may be variables but maybe not, and we still use surgery/meds but they’re bad things, and it’s not a treatment plan but it treats X illnesses”.

    Like ALL health systems, NH is based on certain theories. Not the 3 principles elaborated at the start, as they are axiomatic, not theoretical.

    I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

    Allopathy has its theories of disease such as germ theory, herd theory & free- radical theory, to name a few. Other modalities have their own theories, such as Homeopathy with its own theories of like curing like, as elaborated by Dr Samuel Hannermann.

    Wow. Not only is this a clear and blatant use of the “other ways of knowing” bingo slot, but so patently wrong.

    NH postulates that disease is caused by enervation & toxemia. I won’t elaborate these fully here, but it’s important to know that enervation (exhaustion of vitality) leads to toxemia.

    You’ll have to because I have no idea what you just said. If I translate it, it sounds something like: disease is caused by loss of energy. Which causes the body to get toxic. Which can be removed by fasting/doing nothing. (Ha, you are not a Dame of Contradictions, you are a Queen of them!) Fasting apparently causes the body to both detoxify and re-energise. Am I right in thinking that’s what you’re saying?

    Because if it is, that makes no sense. Also, I’d love you to point to some sort of medical book I could look this process up in, if you can’t be assed explaining properly, just give me a starting point so I could look into it further. No “books”, but proper biological/medical textbooks.

    The causes of disease are many & varied, influenced by hereditary & genetic factors:[etc]

    Ah, so the causes are many and varied: fasting or doing nothing works for *some* illnesses, but not others and in many cases surgery or medication is still beneficial. Guess what Emily? You are actually suggesting – except for the fasting – exactly what every doctor and medical scientist recommends. Shocking!!

    Basically you’ve accepted everything about SBM except the acceptance of the methodology behind it. It’s like the others said, Natural Hygiene is stuck in the time it was invented and meanwhile science has moved on; you’ve moved on with it but you just don’t want to admit it, preferring your lovely Georgian landscape and the pretty sounding “four humors” fallacy.

    By removing as many causes as possible that are within our control, such as nutritional insults (& this goes far beyond the standard “eat a balanced diet” mantra) & requires a deep knowledge of the subtle causes of enervation & toxemia, & then by providing the appropriate biological conditions upon which health depends, something miraculous happens- health improves, naturally.

    But what are the risks? You’ve given us the benefits, but how can we judge whether or not they outweigh the risks? Once again you’re asserting stuff without backing it up (because it’s “self evident” of course), nor explaining the underlying mechanisms of this so-called toxemia, nor pointing to any kind of statistics that one could properly judge Natural Hygiene by. Stating “it works” tells me nothing because it’s not detailed enough to be accurate in the real world. Especially when you factor in that you’ve admitted that there are many variables; many variables mean many possible outcomes, which means “it works” is hardly close to an accurate overview. It works better than placebo? Better than medication? Which meds? Which surgeries? Which lifestyles? For what ages? Genders? Etc etc etc ad naseum.

    NH has never purported to be the answer to all health issues, but in my very considerable experience, it has far more to offer the vast majority of health problems than any other modality, including allopathy.

    Yeah call me crazy but your ‘experience’ doesn’t convince me. I have experience that fasting sucks. Doing nothing sucks. And I already do most of your Natural Hygiene methods. And none of that makes me any healthier. One anecdote cancels out the other. Which is why we don’t use them.

    I’m done. I’ll reply to the other already-made comments here and on the other thread, but unless you get something new or original to say, I’m out. It’s not so much that I can’t handle your repetitiveness or made up my mind or am running away, it’s that I can’t handle my repetition. I’m bored just thinking about making further replies. Given your repeated lack of interest in: replying honestly and to the actual questions asked; reading what you write; reading what we write; and the many many other points about your lack of understanding on various relevant topics on the scientific method… it’s quite clear you’re not interested in thinking critically, nor having an honest and open discussion. You couldn’t have done a worse job in promoting Natural Health to someone who has never heard of it before.

    Enjoy your stroll through the green lush hazy pristine world of yours, Regina Emily. I do hope you never lose your positive thinking, lest you become like the rest of us faulty humans going down the path to hell with a coffee in one hand and a vaccine in the other. We all know that too much or too little of something is just not appropriate for healthy living, and it’s just our damn fault if we get sick because we just weren’t being ‘natural’ enough. And especially it’s our fault since we’re stupid enough to go to a doctor or do something about it (except fasting which is magically exempt), because that makes things worse. My goodness, if only we’d just stop hitting ourselves!

    My Queen, that is a high pedestal you’ve sat yourself upon. And it is built on one thing: victim blaming.

    @460 Attack_laurel

    I agree: see my above final paragraph.

  468. #468 Narad
    January 26, 2012

    Guess what Emily? You are actually suggesting – except for the fasting – exactly what every doctor and medical scientist recommends.

    Well, has your physician ever stressed the importance of not combining melons with any other type of food? Didn’t think so.

  469. #469 Th1Th2
    January 26, 2012

    why did the rate of measles incidence in the USA drop by 90% between 1960 and 1970? Please include real cites in your answer.

    Wow. Chris really sounds like a broken record, doesn’t she? May be she needs some whoopin’.

  470. #470 Narad
    January 26, 2012

    Wow. Chris really sounds like a broken record, doesn’t she?

    Oh, the irony.

  471. #471 Anton P. Nym
    January 26, 2012

    Chris really sounds like a broken record, doesn’t she?

    *cue Woody Woodpecker laugh*

    Wow. Self-awareness really isn’t one of Thingy’s strengths, is it?

    — Steve

  472. #472 T-reg
    January 26, 2012

    @flip:

    here’s another contradiction by her Majesty, Emily of Contradictions.

    She starts with: the body is self healing. The powers of the body’s self healing mechanism are limitless and as such, there is no need to interfere with it.

    Then she moves on to: Interfering with the body using drugs and surgery only causes harm to the body.

    If the body’s capacity for self healing is limitless, it should make no difference if we interfere with it by using drugs and surgery. Any harm done by them should be taken care of by the body itself.

    Then again, if drugs and surgery can harm the body, then its capacity for self healing is not limitless, after all. Wouldn’t that mean that assistance by external agencies is required?

  473. #473 flip
    January 26, 2012

    @466 Narad

    Well, has your physician ever stressed the importance of not combining melons with any other type of food? Didn’t think so.

    Yeah, that should teach me to write a response after being awake for more than 24 hours. A better way of putting it is to say that *most* of what I read as being part of the Natural Hygiene lifestyle was stuff that most doctors would recommend. Minus the fasting and weird food combinations.

    @470 T-reg

    Great point! I didn’t think of that at all. One wonders why fasting is needed at all; maybe in Natural Hygiene-world fasting speeds up the process of ‘self healing’.

  474. #474 Prometheus
    January 26, 2012

    T-Reg (#470):

    “If the body’s capacity for self healing is limitless, it should make no difference if we interfere with it by using drugs and surgery. Any harm done by them should be taken care of by the body itself.”

    Great point! That’s similar to one of my arguments, that it isn’t “natural” to intervene in natural disease processes, even with “natural” remedies.

    Aging is natural, as are appendicitis, measles, gangrene, dying in childbirth and pandemic plague. If “natural” is so good and powerful and “holistic”, why mess with it? If the body has “limitless” self-healing abilities, then all of our puny medical interventions – “mainstream”, “alternative”, “Natural Hygiene” etc. – are pointless.

    On the other hand, if claims about the “limitless” self-healing capacity of the human body are wrong, then much of “alternative” medicine (i.e. the parts that claim to “unleash” the body’s self-healing potential, like chiropractic, acupuncture, NH, etc.) are also wrong.

    Prometheus

  475. #475 Th1Th2
    January 26, 2012

    If the body’s capacity for self healing is limitless, it should make no difference if we interfere with it by using drugs and surgery. Any harm done by them should be taken care of by the body itself.

    Trans: Let me infect you first then we can talk about self-healing later.

    Great point!

  476. #476 flip
    January 26, 2012

    @472 Prometheus

    On the other hand, if claims about the “limitless” self-healing capacity of the human body are wrong, then much of “alternative” medicine (i.e. the parts that claim to “unleash” the body’s self-healing potential, like chiropractic, acupuncture, NH, etc.) are also wrong.

    Ah, but you see, that’s the problem: it’s only limitless if you have the insider magical knowledge of how to ‘unblock’ your ‘potential’.

  477. #477 Emily
    January 27, 2012

    re Flip @ 465:
    “Yeah call me crazy but your ‘experience’ doesn’t convince me. I have experience that fasting sucks. Doing nothing sucks. And I already do most of your Natural Hygiene methods. And none of that makes me any healthier. One anecdote cancels out the other. Which is why we don’t use them”.

    Exactly what methods have you already embraced? Please tell me? Maybe I can help you, you never know.

    To answer your many misconceptions would take me hours & I’m not prepared for that. I have studied health for many years & taught it at vaious institutions, when possible with a natural hygienic philosophy, have seen thousands of people recover or drammatically improve from adopting the principles & practices of NH, but I’m unwilling to sit here & conduct a correspondence course for you. I have far more important things to do,&, as you twist everything I say & then expect me to explain myself, I am simply wasting my time.

    “My Queen, that is a high pedestal you’ve sat yourself upon. And it is built on one thing: victim blaming”.

    Do you mean like the medical profession blaming somkers for their lung cancer & sun-lovers for their melanomas?

    re 472-4:

    This is what I mean. You people are not after serious discussion. You fabricate things & then condemn the innocent.

    When did I state the body’s healing power was limitless? Pray tell? Either you haven’t read previous posts or you just want to see what you want to.

    As for SBM already covering what hygienists do, except for fasting, I have 2 points to make.

    Firstly it was not medicine which elevated the well understood conditions of health first, it was NH practitioners & other non-medical researchers.

    Smoking: doctors not that long ago recommended it! NH practitioners have been warning people of the deleterious consequences for over 100 years.

    Exercise: Medical practitioners discouraged CHD patients from exercising long after HH’s were extolling its virtues.

    Sun Exposure: Modern medicine until very recently has discouraged sun exposure to the detriment of the population’s vitamin D status. NH’s have been encouraging moderate sun exposure for over 100 years.

    Dangers of fever suppression: medicine again has been asleep at the wheel. It is in NH literature dating back 100 years of the benefit of fever. It took until 2011 for the AAP to change its stance on fevers.

    Alcohol: medicine today is still in the dark ages as far as this is concerned, often stating that moderation is “good for the heart”. Yeh? But as Dr mendelsohn so rightly stated: “the funeral rate stays the same!” Why? Because of other increases such as breast cancer, oropharyngeal cancer, neurological problems, liver problems etc.

    The need for a plant-based diet: again medicine has been circling the airport while NH advocates have been encouraging plant-based nutrition for 100 years at least. Finally, plant-based nutrition has been taken up by some medical doctors like Fuhrman, McDougall, Ornish, Esselstyn etc. Better late than never.

    Secondly, you must be joking when you say medical doctors emphasise these lifestyle factors. Maybe where you live, but where I’m from I see almost total neglect in this area.

    The standard lifestyle advice given to men by most doctors here is: “don’t smoke & where a condom!” Good one!!

  478. #478 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    January 27, 2012

    Emily,

    The standard lifestyle advice given to men by most doctors here is: “don’t smoke & where a condom!” Good one!!

    I don’t know if I’m in your area, and I am not a doctor. But how do you know that? How many conversations between men and their doctors have you been involved with? How many doctors have you interviewed about their medical advice to men? What studies have you read or published that show this is the total scope of the conversation between doctors and men?
    Unless you can clue me in on the source of your information, it sure looks like you’ve taken a parody of a doctor’s advice and treated it as fact in order to complain about it. This is referred to as a straw man fallacy.
    Also, what is your issue with alcohol? You’re clearly a teetotaler, and I don’t recall anyone in a medical setting speaking out against that. On the other hand there are studies that indicate that moderate consumption of some alcoholic beverages may provide some benefit including, perhaps, for reducing or avoiding heart disease. Do you dispute these studies? If so, on what basis?

  479. #479 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    January 27, 2012

    And as to the list of things where NH was “way ahead of medicine”: even assuming it’s true, it’s also true that even a blind prig can occasionally root up an acorn.

  480. #480 flip
    January 27, 2012

    @475 Emily

    Exactly what methods have you already embraced? Please tell me? Maybe I can help you, you never know.

    You quite clearly stated you have no idea of the cause of my illness, and you have told me fasting wouldn’t work. I’ve asked you many times to state why many of my actions – which are promoted by Natural Hygiene as well – don’t work, and what Natural Hygiene would recommend.

    At least I read, remember and understand what I write and (well, read and remember at any rate) what you write. You can’t even scroll up to see if I’ve already stated any of this. But for fun, see if you can try and give one. How can you help me? Try reading my previous comments and post a recommendation for my better health. What can I do to get better?

    But Regina Emily, you in one sentence show not only are you full of contradictions, but that you still can’t get over your own insistence of anecdotes. (Even though you clearly know how to regurgitate my point back to me you obviously don’t understand what it means)

    To answer your many misconceptions would take me hours & I’m not prepared for that. I have studied health for many years & taught it at vaious institutions, when possible with a natural hygienic philosophy, have seen thousands of people recover or drammatically improve from adopting the principles & practices of NH, but I’m unwilling to sit here & conduct a correspondence course for you. I have far more important things to do,&, as you twist everything I say & then expect me to explain myself, I am simply wasting my time.

    For fucks sake, if it’s too long to write out, point to a website I can read this from. I don’t understand what you’re saying, so if you can’t clarify, or another website can’t, then I’ll just assume that it makes no sense. You really are a bad PR person for your own cause.

    I don’t want a correspondence course: I want you to explain the basic definition of how it works. If you can’t do that, then you’re an incompentent educator. I have written such summaries myself, and have family who work in education, and if you can’t summarise what you teach then you need to stop teaching it.

    I don’t twist everything you say. You write without clarity, and in trying to understand it, I summarise what I’ve read. You say it’s wrong. Then can’t be assed correcting me with a proper and true summary.

    You’re a crank. A clear and classic crank.

    Do you mean like the medical profession blaming somkers for their lung cancer & sun-lovers for their melanomas?

    Lung cancer can be caused by many things, and so can melanoma. Cloud cover can be just as dangerous as clear skies.

    But I like how you cherry-pick convenient illnesses where causes can be linked to people’s actions. How about something else? How about you tell me what the cause is for measles?

    When did I state the body’s healing power was limitless? Pray tell? Either you haven’t read previous posts or you just want to see what you want to.

    It’s implied by what you write. How would you know there are limitations on what the body can/’t do? You don’t do any research, can’t point it out, and apparently are so full of contradictions that you can’t see the illogic of your own words.

    If you can’t be clear in what you write, then people will misunderstand it. Which is why we ask questions and want responses because it clarifies what you’re writing. Did you even pass high school graduation? This is like, Language Skills 101.

    Firstly it was not medicine which elevated the well understood conditions of health first, it was NH practitioners & other non-medical researchers.

    By gum, more CAM canards!

    Yep that’s what we asked for. No, please don’t post the data and statistic and explanations that would convince us; just repeat ad naseum all those little tidbits you think make you a fence-sitter. Because repeatedly saying “it is so” without anything to back it up is just *so darn convincing*.

    Secondly, you must be joking when you say medical doctors emphasise these lifestyle factors. Maybe where you live, but where I’m from I see almost total neglect in this area.

    Yes, where I live. Constantly and consistently. Also elsewhere, like with Orac, who repeatedly debunks this little ‘factoid’ all the time. Just because you haven’t heard any doctor near you – and I seriously doubt you’ve met with a good one in a long, long time – doesn’t mean they don’t do it. And if you’d get your ass out of your CAM PR, and read actual scientific papers, you might actually realise it too. Not the mainstream media, not some forum, but the actual research.

    The standard lifestyle advice given to men by most doctors here is: “don’t smoke & where a condom!” Good one!!

    That’s a rather large strawman – I guess you needed something to lean on as your pedestal is so high.

    So at the end of the day… I still have no idea what you mean and the only remotely interesting thing you’ve come up with is that you’re now offering to suggest treatments for me. Let’s go back to discussing your germ denial. That was only slightly more interesting.

  481. #481 Chris
    January 27, 2012

    Oh, good. Another morning where I am greeted with more of Emily’s delusional homilies, and no sight of an answer to the simple question I ask two weeks ago. She is obviously pulling the stuff out of thin air.

  482. #482 Militant Agnostic
    January 27, 2012

    Mephistopheles O’Brien

    even a blind prig can occasionally root up an acorn

    Was that an intentional malapropism?

    Emily – what is “natural” about a plant based diet? I think the Inuit would like to have a word with you about that. For most of human history we were hunter gatherers eating an omnivorous diet with the ratio of meat to plants varying widely depending on the time of year and local conditions. A plant based diet might be healthy, but is certainly isn’t “natural”.

  483. #483 Krebiozen
    January 27, 2012

    I just came across something amazing (apologies if anyone has pointed this out already and I missed it) – according to Natural Hygiene menstruation is actually pathological. As Herbert Shelton put it:

    in the average woman, due to lack of their normal support, the abdominal organs gravitate toward and rest upon the pelvic organs, and thus interfere with the return circulation from the pelvis, we easily understand why the hyperemia (excess of blood) becomes great enough to result in a leakage of blood and blood serum through the lax tissues of the uterus.

    Shelton explained this more comprehensively in his book ‘Menstruation-Its Cause and Cure’. Any comments on this Emily?

  484. #484 Krebiozen
    January 27, 2012

    In moderation, a comment explaining that Herbert Shelton (father of modern Natural Hygiene) believed that menstruation is a disease. You couldn’t make it up.

  485. #485 dedicated lurker
    January 27, 2012

    But as Dr mendelsohn so rightly stated: “the funeral rate stays the same!”

    Well, yeah. You’re going to die of something someday. There’s no way to prevent that.

  486. #486 Narad
    January 27, 2012

    Smoking: doctors not that long ago recommended it! NH practitioners have been warning people of the deleterious consequences for over 100 years.

    Haven’t we been through this with Emily already?

    Sun Exposure: Modern medicine until very recently has discouraged sun exposure to the detriment of the population’s vitamin D status. NH’s have been encouraging moderate sun exposure for over 100 years.

    Ah, Shelton recommended staring directly into the Sun to “improve vision,” as well.

  487. #487 Denice Walter
    January 27, 2012

    Encouraging sun exposure without sunscreen has appeared in those swirling vortices of mis-information I survey ( esp. Mercola, but the others as well): sunscreen itself, chemical interference with Mother Nature’s Benevolence, has been impugned as *causing* skin cancer ( Mercola, I believe). Even Brazilian models** concur. Oh where to begin?

    Skin cancer rates ( including melanoma) have been increasing. Yet I hear so much about the health benefits of the sun ( esp. via vitamin D) from Mike Adams et al; Mercola even likes tanning beds. We have Australians- like flip- @RI, one of the places where skin cancer has become more prevalent in younger people: as I’ve been watching the Open lately, I can see that you certainly get lots of sunshine, right?

    Again woo-meisters irresponsibly toss out mis-information that could be harmful to many people: my cousin Will, a businessman who *avoided* the sun ( white as a sheet like the rest of us plus he’s half Irish) got melanoma- he’s alright now after treatment which wasn’t easy I was told. I am in a high risk category myself for skin cancer in general ( I looked at the contributing factors years before his illness and found I have them all) so I wear 100 SPF most of the time. Ancestors and family from the land of mists, so what can I say? I love San Francisco.

    ** Gisele Bundchen, recently.

  488. #488 flip
    January 27, 2012

    @481 Krebiozen

    in the average woman, due to lack of their normal support, the abdominal organs gravitate toward and rest upon the pelvic organs, and thus interfere with the return circulation from the pelvis, we easily understand why the hyperemia (excess of blood) becomes great enough to result in a leakage of blood and blood serum through the lax tissues of the uterus.

    Wow, they really are stuck in the past. “Hysteria” and bloodletting would be right up Shelton’s alley then. It also sounds like I was right in that it’s pretty much the four humors idea in that they seem concerned about “excess” bodily functions.

    I guess it proves another point though: clearly women are to blame for their own menstrual cycles. If only we’d just stand up straighter, we wouldn’t have this problem. (If gravity is such a strong force – why do the organs not just fall straight through the pelvis to the earth? Basic physics is not their strong point)

    @485 Denice

    We have Australians- like flip- @RI, one of the places where skin cancer has become more prevalent in younger people: as I’ve been watching the Open lately, I can see that you certainly get lots of sunshine, right?

    Yes, there is a large number of people who have gotten skin cancer due to their lack of use of sunscreen and staying out too long in the sun. We annually have TV and other media campaigns by relevant authorities to “slip slop slap”. That is, to cover up, use sunscreen, and be aware of the harshness of the sun. I can’t say what effect it’s had over the years. Personally speaking, I’m fair skinned and prone to burning, so I do it anyway.

  489. #489 herr doktor bimler
    January 27, 2012

    Smoking: doctors not that long ago recommended it!
    Haven’t we been through this with Emily already?

    People keep making that claim; then when pressed for examples of doctors who recommended smoking, they point to advertisements where actors *dress up as doctors* and recommend smoking.

    Two weeks ago it was Anna.

  490. #490 Narad
    January 27, 2012

    Two weeks ago it was Anna.

    Ah, yes, thank you. My dotage is showing.

  491. #491 adelady
    January 28, 2012

    “We annually have TV and other media campaigns by relevant authorities to “slip slop slap”.”

    Dearie me, you need to get up to date. It’s now slip, slop, slap, seek, slide. Seek … shade. Slide … on a pair of sunnies. They’ve discovered that Australians have a high rate of sun damaged eyes as well as melanoma.

    And for all those Vitamin D aficionados. Those recommendations apply for the hours of 10am to 3pm. I don’t know of anywhere in Australia you couldn’t get your daily dose of vit D in a very short period before 10am.

  492. #492 T-reg
    January 28, 2012

    @flip @Prometheus –
    Thank you!

    @Lord Draconis:

    I just had a disturbing, my Reptilian Overlord. I think I understand what ‘natural hygiene’ is all about. It is meant to starve humanity and to kill us through inaction. This will ensure that the world is naturally ‘cleaned up’.

    I believe there is a rival intergalactic species (The Amphibians, perhaps?) which is trying to undermine your plans for the subjugation of our race by ensuring our destruction. Perhaps they intend to claim our 75% aqueous world for themselves.

  493. #493 LW
    January 28, 2012

    in the average woman, due to lack of their normal support, the abdominal organs gravitate toward and rest upon the pelvic organs, and thus interfere with the return circulation from the pelvis, we easily understand why the hyperemia (excess of blood) becomes great enough to result in a leakage of blood and blood serum through the lax tissues of the uterus.

    Women’s posture improves greatly in middle age, obviously. I wonder if Shelton mentioned that. Though, I suppose, given his habit of starving sick people, perhaps none of his patients survived long enough to experience menopause.

  494. #494 Krebiozen
    January 28, 2012

    Women’s posture improves greatly in middle age, obviously.

    Thankfully men’s posture is always excellent, otherwise they would start bleeding from the penis.

  495. #495 Narad
    January 28, 2012

    Thankfully men’s posture is always excellent, otherwise they would start bleeding from the penis.

    Somebody tip off alert Hood to this, pronto.

  496. #496 Krebiozen
    January 28, 2012

    Somebody tip off alert Hood to this, pronto.

    Isn’t his area of interest a little further back?

  497. #497 alison
    January 28, 2012

    Emily @475 said: I have studied health for many years & taught it at vaious institutions

    So (without much hope of actually getting an answer, but you never know!) – Emily, please tell us where you have studied & taught “health” (previously it was “biology”, I believe), and what your qualifications are (in “health” & in teaching). Because, if your ramblings here are anything to go by, you don’t seem to remember much from your studies of biology & there is little evidence that much meaningful learning would go on in your classes.

    Pass the popcorn, someone! (I’ve taken the dog for a good brisk walk so I’m sure I can manage a little snack while waiting for an answer.)

  498. #498 flip
    January 28, 2012

    @489 Adelady

    I’ll admit to not paying attention to the campaign over the last few years. I don’t do much sun-baking. (I hope the weather is nicer where you are. Here it’s boiling!)

  499. #499 Emily
    January 29, 2012

    Re Flip @ 478

    “For fucks sake, if it’s too long to write out, point to a website I can read this from. I don’t understand what you’re saying, so if you can’t clarify, or another website can’t, then I’ll just assume that it makes no sense. You really are a bad PR person for your own cause”.

    Flip, you really need anger management help, & to spend less time on your flogging your blogging & more time living hygienically… (Hint- take it!).

    I have given you some websites previously but here’s one more: http://www.healthscience.org. But be warned. This might exacerbate your anger. A ” real” one, Dr Pavleski, tells you in a 40 minutes video why vaccinations are your straw man.

    Good luck to you “mate” ( Aussie Flip), stick to your SBM (Seriously Bad Medicine) & become a good little ‘sheeple’ in the High Church of Modern Medicine, where you can kneel down & pray at the altar of the data-deity.

    Go to your trusted Priest who will annoint with a multitude of drugs,for all manner of conditions both mental & physical, all the while saying: “well, if this one doesn’t work, we’ll try this next”… or.. “the cure is just around the corner” (just like cancer) or….” I’ll send you to another specialist”…..or “it’s all in your mind”… or…” this new drug has been well tested & shows promise, & we have other drugs to counter the side-effects”.

    All very firmly planted in pure science & foolproof randomly- controlled trials, run by prests who have only your best interest at heart.

    And, BTW, Elvis just left the building.

    Somehow I don’t think he did. I think he died at the altar of data-deity (his toilet) with 14 prescribed med’s coursing through his gullible veins, like millions of other “sheeple”.

    You’re a true believer Flip, & the Nuns & Priests love you for it, as do the Church’s Holy Water shareholders.

  500. #500 Chris
    January 29, 2012

    Woo hoo, another morning greeting of full crazy from Emily!

    So, Emily, any answer to why there was a 90% decline in measles rates in the USA between 1960 and 1970? Or are you just going to keep up with your delusions of relevancy?

  501. #501 Narad
    January 29, 2012

    Flip, you really need anger management help, & to spend less time on your flogging your blogging & more time living hygienically… (Hint- take it!).

    It doesn’t seem to be having much of a salutary anger-management effect on you, kiddo. (Sheeple? And could you figure out what “blogging” means?)

  502. #502 alison
    January 29, 2012

    Emily@497: D Pavlevski? You mean this guy (note spelling of name) at drpavlevsky.com? The man who says that children need to be allowed to experience symptoms of acute illness in order for their bodies to appropriately cleanse the wastes and toxins from their systems, and so they can go forward in their lives toward greater optimal health and wellness.” Rarely does Dr. Palevsky ever need to prescribe antibiotics for children in his practice. On average, he writes one antibiotic prescription per year. This is because he has come to understand that most illnesses in children are not caused by infections, and therefore, don’t require antibiotic treatment He is also anti-vaccination & into “holistic” medicine.

    So, he would rather have kids (& their parents) suffer through all that’s involved in an acute pertussis/diphtheria/Hib/et al infection, with all the attendant risks thereof? He also seems to be skirting round the edges of germ theory denialism, although to be charitable there’s no call for antibiotic use for viral infection – but then, all doctors should know that anyway. I wouldn’t nail my colors to this particular mast if I were you, Emily!

  503. #503 lilady
    January 29, 2012

    @ Alison: The doctor that “Emily” refers to is one of the “stars” of the anti-vax movie “The Greater Good”, reviewed here by our expert movie critic Orac on November 11, 2011:

    “Anti-vaccine propaganda lands in New York City this weekend”

    “Is it any surprise that Dr. Palevsky comes across in the movie very much as being “anti-vaccine”? Of course not. He even writes articles for the NVIC. It’s also no surprise that Dr. Palevsky spends much of his time on The Greater Good promoting a litany of anti-vaccine pseudoscience, including the “toxins” gambit, conspiracy mongering about pharmaceutical companies, and claims that vaccines aren’t adequately tested. Late in the movie, he’s even shown speaking to the American College for Advancement in Medicine (ACAM) and using the most brain dead of anti-vaccine gambits, namely claiming that because mortality from various infectious diseases was falling before vaccines for those diseases were introduced it must mean that vaccines are useless.”

    I checked out his website and he is not practice pediatrics in Northport New York right now. He says he has a nurse practitioner who is seeing patients in his stead…and that he is around somewhere covering decisions made by the nurse practitioner.

    BTW, there have been a number of outbreaks of pertussis in Suffolk County New York recently, centered on the Northport School District. Northport is the location of this quack’s medical practice.

  504. #504 flip
    January 29, 2012

    @497 Emily

    Flip, you really need anger management help, & to spend less time on your flogging your blogging & more time living hygienically… (Hint- take it!).

    Unoriginal. I’ve heard that one before and every time it just makes me wonder. I’m pretty forthcoming when I write, but in real life I’m extremely shy. And I’d take your hint, except I still have no idea how living hygienically is any different than what I’m doing now. And you stated that you don’t know what caused my illness, so how could you treat it? But you go on posturing, if it makes you feel better.

    I have given you some websites previously but here’s one more: http://www.healthscience.org. But be warned. This might exacerbate your anger. A ” real” one, Dr Pavleski, tells you in a 40 minutes video why vaccinations are your straw man.

    Well because that helps me understand how Natural Hygiene works. No wait, it doesn’t. It has the usual explanation about “what” it is, but it doesn’t actually explain how all those ‘natural’ principles act on the body or the biological processes that occur. Maybe I just missed it: would you mind pointing me to the page that explains that process/es? By the way, I don’t see any info on how they treat schizophrenia, or many of the other mental illnesses out there.

    So you rail against us for wanting papers, etc. but then post links to websites that both mention and discuss papers, but also videos? Regina Emily does it again!! Which is it: are papers useless propaganda, or are they useful unbiased data?

    But anyway, do you remember when you said that meds/surgery can be used sometimes or that Natural Hygiene doesn’t claim to solve everything? Yeah, and then your screed goes on and shows just how much of a Queen of Contradictions you really are.

    I note that your site says this about Mental Fitness:

    The NHA believes that mental fitness is as critical a factor in the maintenance of health and well-being as is physical fitness and, therefore, urges its members to be proactive in this regard by seeing that their daily lives incorporate such stress relieving activities as quiet sitting, meditation, yoga, tai chi and more.

    One wonders how stress relieving activities actually cure or treat depression or any other mental illness. “Positive thinking” strikes again. Apparently walking cures dementia. Shit, if only my grandfather knew that… he walked every day! He was just doing it wrong I guess. My favourite is “activity and IQ may combat dementia”. The implication is that one just has to be “smarter”, but that’s not at all what the paper is saying. It’s also a single small study from the 40s. The paper on dementia is actually about cognitive function.

    I quote from the actual article: “Finally, we did not assess development of dementia in our cohort.”
    http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/292/12/1454.full

    Orac is right: these people take proper studies that discuss and recommend ‘natural’ approaches and then lean on them to promote their own thing. — And do I detect SBM actually looking into ‘natural’ approaches? How does that fit with your biased idea that SBM doesn’t? Oh right, you’re going to ignore that point. Again.

    Can you start to understand why I sound so angry? These people – and you – are trying to tell me that I’m just “living wrong” and that SBM isn’t going to look at my lifestyle, even though it does. How can a 10 year old “live wrong”? Especially when she’s doing everything that Natural Hygiene appears to promote? Victim-blaming isn’t something I put up with well. Nor should I have to. This is extremely pervasive and destructive thinking whereby every mentally ill person is just not trying hard enough or slacking off or “not eating right”, and we end up contorting ourselves into avoiding dealing with the actual problem by blaming it on some mystical invisible “energy” or some weird dietary requirement which has no experimental data to back it up. Worse, there’s no experimental data to show it has little to no risk, which means that people *can* and *will* get hurt because of the “what’s the harm” fallacy. You’re the one going on about diets and exercise, like it somehow cancels out a lifetime of a chemical imbalance in the brain. It does not and will not accept the fact that one does not CHOOSE to be this way, and one does not CHOOSE to stop being this way, and one does not shut off suicidal thoughts with ten minutes of yoga every day.

    Plenty of people avoid seeking any kind of help at all because they feel ashamed, or like they should try harder, or that others will say “you’re just sad”, or that it’s just a matter of being “relaxed”. The only people I have ever EVER heard this from is CAM proponents like you. Not doctors, YOU. Not mental health advocates, YOU. Not psychologists, YOU.

    That you think I should be ok with this shows just how narrow your world is and how little you’ve actually had to experience with mentally ill people or the work being done to help us. I hope to FSM you don’t have any contact with them as a “doctor”, you’ll only end up making things worse.

    If that makes me sound angry, good. My words are nothing compared to the contempt I have in real life for anyone who acts like it’s just a matter of cutting out dairy and/or thinking positive. If that worked for anyone at all, mental illness wouldn’t exist. But I suppose you think all those past asylums were just full of people who ate red meat or something…

    PS. I note that you haven’t suggested any treatments for me. So, how come you’re not willing to help me anymore? Am I being too “negative” for any of your suggestions to work?

    Good luck to you “mate” ( Aussie Flip), stick to your SBM (Seriously Bad Medicine) & become a good little ‘sheeple’ in the High Church of Modern Medicine, where you can kneel down & pray at the altar of the data-deity.

    Yet another convincing argument. When all else fails, CAM proponents simply call “sheeple”, dust their hands, and declare victory. I guess you’re one of us now, you’ve been posting data (crap data, but data all the same) the whole time.

    Go to your trusted Priest who will annoint with a multitude of drugs,for all manner of conditions both mental & physical, all the while saying: “well, if this one doesn’t work, we’ll try this next”… or.. “the cure is just around the corner” (just like cancer) or….” I’ll send you to another specialist”…..or “it’s all in your mind”… or…” this new drug has been well tested & shows promise, & we have other drugs to counter the side-effects”.

    Yeah, I’m the “sheeple”. You know very well that this is bullshit, it’s been pointed out many times. You’re unwillingness to take on board anything anyone writes is proof-positive you’re biased. And stupid: in your world where there is ‘one cause’ of course different meds seem unnecessary. But out here in the real world, there are many meds for many causes. Not every body is the same, and not every body will react the same way to the same meds. However, that’s why experiments are necessary, to produce treatments that work for *most* people. In your world, I guess Natural Hygiene has an answer for every undiscovered illness – why not, Georgian times were just *so* much simpler.

    It might be interesting to know that I recently suffered from a chronic illness (outside of my depression). I went through about 6 doctors, who put me on various medications, to no effect. I finally saw a specialist, who you know what: talked about various lifestyle changes, and put me on a medication in the meantime (the illness is potentially life-threatening if not treated with a preventative). I’ve also participated in a study that was critically evaluating the local mental health system, in order to improve it. And my GP (general practitioner) once chatted with me for half an hour trying to get to the bottom of an illness – only to suggest that maybe I was just having issues at home and to change a lifestyle habit.

    Yes, there are some doctors/treatments that are crap; just as there are many more that aren’t. BUT THIS PROVES NOTHING ABOUT THE EFFICACY AND WORTH OF YOUR OWN HYPOTHESIS. If “sheeple” means having a more nuanced view of the world, then fuck I’m glad I’m one of them. You apparently live in a black and white world all of your own. I guess Pride & Prejudice only comes in B&W where you are?

    Somehow I don’t think he did. I think he died at the altar of data-deity (his toilet) with 14 prescribed med’s coursing through his gullible veins, like millions of other “sheeple”.

    And you’ll live to 100 and never get sick just by …. no I still have no idea what it is you do or how it works. Apparently everything that Natural Hygiene suggests should cure a family member’s diabetes, and yet they’ve been following those principles for the past 10 years. (Doesn’t drink, smoke, does exercise, eats right… oh no, sorry, they mix peanuts with other nuts…) How does it work again?

    You’re a true believer Flip, & the Nuns & Priests love you for it, as do the Church’s Holy Water shareholders.

    Or… I can’t understand how it works and why. I don’t like people who say “it just does” because that’s pretty much a non-explanation. You know what you could do: you could explain your Natural Hygiene in a way I can understand it. You could post a simple explanation of how it works. You could direct me to a site which doesn’t go on about irrelevant ideas about how SBM is bad and doesn’t have some logical inconsistency (and no victim blaming). You could actually, I don’t know, try to change my mind with proper use of sensible arguments and better descriptions of what it is and how it works.

    As of now, I don’t see anything particularly unique about promoting good healthy eating and exercise. It certainly doesn’t convince me that if I do so I will somehow stop being sick, nor prevent me from getting sick. All you’ve convinced me of is that they have some nice ideas wrapped up in an ancient way of thinking and some pretty wacky ideas about fasting/food combinations. I have no reason to move my position from there, not because I’m a “believer” but because I see nothing to get excited about. It’s pretty much what every doctor I’ve ever met has said. Eat right, exercise, reduce your risks of being ill. Big whoop!

    I have stated time and again that I’m happy to read your information; and I’ve asked time and again for clarification. I’ve gone off and read various bits as time could afford me. You state you’re not going to explain the toxemia thing to me and have repeatedly shown disdain for anyone who asks for detail. How can I change my mind when you refuse to discuss anything properly and when none of what I’ve read is clear?

    The last resort of a person who has no facts: name-calling.

    @499 Narad

    It doesn’t seem to be having much of a salutary anger-management effect on you, kiddo. (Sheeple? And could you figure out what “blogging” means?)

    Oh I don’t know – I did mention that I’d worked as a journo. And in my non-pseudonymous life I do blog. Let’s not tar her for getting one thing right, even if it was by accident ;)

  505. #505 ken
    January 29, 2012

    @lilady-
    A quote from the LI paper reporting on whooping cough outbreak in LI-
    “The majority of the students who have been infected with whooping cough had been immunized, which health officials said may account for their milder illness.”

  506. #506 alison
    January 29, 2012

    @lilday – d’oh! I knew I should have checked Orac’s posts first (*makes note to self*)

  507. #507 lilady
    January 29, 2012

    @alison: If I bragged that I don’t give vaccinations and “practiced” in Northport…or had a nurse practitioner “seeing my patients”…perhaps I would write a rebuttal to the Suffolk County Commissioner of the Department of Health’s Advisory about the pertussis outbreak.

    Here is part of the crap “False Alarm Over Pertussis” article (December 12, 2011), authored by this quack that appeared on the Progressive Radio Network website:

    “Pertussis bacteria live in the air. They get blown around along with the other trillions of bacteria that live in the air. Because pertussis bacteria live in the air, we breathe them in along with the other trillions of bacteria swirling around. They end up inhabiting our noses, airways, and lungs. We can be harboring pertussis bacteria in our airways simply by breathing the air.”

    This quack is a public health menace.

  508. #508 Antaeus Feldspar
    January 29, 2012

    Oh, ken. Don’t tell me you’re such a blushing novice that you’re falling for the “majority of those who get the disease are immunized” fallacy… seriously?

    Okay, let me walk you through this slowly. Let’s start with two simple propositions:

    1) Right-handed people are the majority of the population, making up about 80% of the population to the left-handed people’s 20%.
    2) There is no way in which one’s handedness, whether left- or right-, influences one’s chances of getting a disease.

    OK. Now, under the circumstances, if a disease starts spreading… the majority of people who get the disease are going to be right-handed. They make up 80% of the general population; they can be safely expected to make up 80% of the caught-the-disease population as well.

    Now to your quote: “The majority of the students who have been infected with whooping cough had been immunized…” What, exactly, did you think we could deduce from that? If you thought we could deduce “immunization doesn’t protect against whooping cough,” then sorry, no gold star for you, you got fooled. If 90% of the general population is immunized, then the non-immunized 10% could get whooping cough at up to 900% the rate at which the immunized get it and still be numerically in the minority!

    You get it, right? … you’re not sure. You’re still positive that there’s some significance to the factoid you posted, something that supports your anti-vaccine views. *sigh* Okay, let’s try this example and see if you can understand. Suppose there’s a school where 900 students are immunized and 100 are not. A whooping cough carrier introduces the disease to the school and by the time it’s gone through, 30 of the immunized students and 20 of the non-immunized students contracted the disease.

    Are the majority of those who contracted the disease immunized? Yes. But let’s look at what the numbers mean in context of the population makeup:

    30 cases out of 900 immunized people = 3.3% of the immunized population caught the disease.

    20 cases out of 100 unimmunized people = 20% of the unimmunized population caught the disease.

    I’d say 20% is a much larger risk than 3.3%, wouldn’t you?

    Seriously, ken, not your finest moment. You made yourself look awfully naive, and that’s only if we give you the benefit of the doubt that you got fooled by it yourself and weren’t deliberately trying to juggle statistics to produce an impression you knew to be false.

  509. #509 alison
    January 29, 2012

    or had a nurse practitioner “seeing my patients”
    Yes, how does that work, anyway? Do the patients pay less for seeing the nurse rather than the doctor? Do they feel somehow short-changed because they’re not seeing the doctor? Does the nurse-practitioner subscribe to the same loopy philosophies as he does? (Here I’m guessing the answer is probably ‘yes’ as otherwise they wouldn’t have been employed, but in that case, have they carefully forgotten much of what they should have learned in their training? The same, probably rhetorical, question, applies to the doctor himself…)

  510. #510 Emily
    January 29, 2012

    re 498

    “So, Emily, any answer to why there was a 90% decline in measles rates in the USA between 1960 and 1970? Or are you just going to keep up with your delusions of relevancy?”

    I am much more interested in the decline of infectious diseases since 1890, well before widespread vaccinations or anti biotics became available.I’m not interested in a 10 year period where a drop occurred, in the context of a much longer & consistent drop prior.

    You also haven’t told me why my 3 children, have never had the flu ( in over 50 years in total) despite never being fluvaxed & despite residing next door to a virus colony.

    This also applies to many of our friends who chose similar paths. Why do the mutating “evil” critters spare us? Are they capable of showing sympathy? We aren’t “protected” by the vaccine. Would you still advise that my children take your flu vaccine?

    re Flip:

    NH is a completely different belief system.It doesn’t promote “cures” or treatments for disease because of reasons i’ve explained before: disease is natural when causes are introduced, the symptoms are the resistance, reparatory in nature & ALL having survival value.There is no such thing as “natural” health because any health one has, be it fragile or vigorous, is courtesy of mother nature! etc etc.

    When you ask how does it “treat” this or that, which is how people have been conditioned to think in terms of their illnesses, you need to be addressing this to either a medical doctor or an “alternative” therapist, the former relying mostly on drugs & chemical/surgical interventions etc,the latter recommending anything from planet Mars Krill oil to quackapuncture.

    From a NH perspective, & perspective is critical in all life pursuits, there are basically 2 types of totally legitimate health modalities: NH & emergency & crisis surgery, all the rest is stamp collecting!

    Flip, investigate the subtleties of NH yourself over time.

    It will be an investment well spent.

    I sincerely wish you well, & I wish we could meet someday & chat in detail, you sound like a good “aussie”.

  511. #511 Emily
    January 30, 2012

    Re alison @ 500:

    ” Emily@497: D Pavlevski? You mean this guy (note spelling of name) at drpavlevsky.com? The man who says that children need to be allowed to experience symptoms of acute illness in order for their bodies to appropriately cleanse the wastes and toxins from their systems, and so they can go forward in their lives toward greater optimal health and wellness.” Rarely does Dr. Palevsky ever need to prescribe antibiotics for children in his practice. On average, he writes one antibiotic prescription per year. This is because he has come to understand that most illnesses in children are not caused by infections, and therefore, don’t require antibiotic treatment He is also anti-vaccination & into “holistic” medicine.

    So, he would rather have kids (& their parents) suffer through all that’s involved in an acute pertussis/diphtheria/Hib/et al infection, with all the attendant risks thereof? He also seems to be skirting round the edges of germ theory denialism, although to be charitable there’s no call for antibiotic use for viral infection – but then, all doctors should know that anyway. I wouldn’t nail my colors to this particular mast if I were you, Emily!”

    Dr Palevski is a breath of fresh air in the fetid vestibule of the Holy Church of Modern Medicine.

    I have stated before: disease is reparatory in nature, it is defensive, it is remedial, it has survival value: coughing, sneezing, fever, vomiting, diarrhoea, skin eruptions – these are not antagonistic to health, they are an expression of a healthy organism trying valiantly to remedy & normalize itself.

    In other words, the disease & its symptoms ARE the resistance! You inhale dust, you cough. The coughing represents the resistance to the “causes” Do you need to “treat” the cough? NO!

    If a child (or anyone) becomes febrile, the fever IS the resistance. It is reparatory in nature, doubling the rate of travel of leucocytes for every degree of rise in temperature.

    The canard by SBM Type2 advocates (seriously bad medicine) that convulsions are the reason to stop the fever, just don’t get it, because the fever is not related to the height of the fever, but to the rate of ascent. And convulsions aren’t dangerous.

    How many babies & children over the decades have died because of SBM Type 2’s penchant for stopping their fevers in their tracks.

    Their little bodies are screaming for desistance & what do they get? Interference & anti-pyrretic insanity. And still it goes on.

    SBM needs to understand this biological truism & try to work with nature, not against her.

    There should be more Drs Palevskis, Fuhrmans, Campbells, Goldhammers etc- health practitioners who do not belittle natural processes, but understand them.

  512. #512 Matthew Cline
    January 30, 2012

    @Emily:

    the symptoms are the resistance, reparatory in nature & ALL having survival value.

    disease is reparatory in nature, it is defensive, it is remedial, it has survival value:

    While this is true of some symptoms, it’s by no means true of all. The symptoms of mineral and vitamin deficiency aren’t resistive/reparatory/remedial. Nor are the symptoms of poisoning (save for vomiting). Nor are the symptoms caused by bacterial exotoxins and endotoxins (which, to give some examples, includes pertussis, tetanus, cholera, salmonella and some strains of E. coli). Nor are the symptoms of type I diabetes, hemophilia, or sickle cell anemia. And I’m pretty sure the symptoms of rabies aren’t helpful, since rabies has an almost 100% fatality rate.

    How many babies & children over the decades have died because of SBM Type 2’s penchant for stopping their fevers in their tracks.

    Their little bodies are screaming for desistance & what do they get? Interference & anti-pyrretic insanity. And still it goes on.

    So, then, all (or at least most) deaths due to childhood diseases are iatrogenic? I’m curious: what percentage of the deaths due to smallpox were iatrogenic? When the bubonic plague wiped out 30% (or more) of Europe, what percentage of the deaths were iatrogenic?

    I’m also curious: how high would a fever have to get before you’d recommend attempting to fight it? 107 °F? 108 °F?

  513. #513 LW
    January 30, 2012

    I have stated before: disease is reparatory in nature, it is defensive, it is remedial, it has survival value: coughing, sneezing, fever, vomiting, diarrhoea, skin eruptions – these are not antagonistic to health, they are an expression of a healthy organism trying valiantly to remedy & normalize itself.

    That’s nice. But wouldn’t it be better to protect the healthy organism from the problem in the first place? You use the example of coughing in response to dust; some of us would put on a mask or go inside to get away from that dust. The point of a vaccination campaign is to keep disease away from the vulnerable who *can’t* “remedy and normalize” — like the ten babies who coughed themselves to death from pertussis last year in California.

  514. #514 LW
    January 30, 2012

    Speaking of vaccination, Emily, you said you had three children totaling 53 years of age, and they’ve had the measles. That means they average about eighteen years old. Show of hands please: how many of Orac’s readers are around the age of eighteen — say, up to age twenty-five — and have had the measles? How many have children up to age twenty-five that have had the measles?

    You see, Emily, most young people of your children’s age have never had the measles. They’ve never had to valiantly “remedy and normalize” themselves against the measles, because they’ve never had them. It’s part of civilization: our distant ancestors had to valiantly defend themselves against wild animals, but today we don’t. They had to valiantly “remedy and normalize” in response to all sorts of parasites, but today we in the West mostly don’t. And so on.

    Back in the Nineteenth Century, when your beliefs were formulated, a fatalistic acceptance that disease is normal and nothing can or should be done about it, except fresh air, sunshine, good food, and clean water, was a perfectly reasonable attitude and undoubtedly saved lives as against the medical science of the day.

    But you’re talking to people who live in the Twenty-First Century, and your beliefs are silly when they’re not actively dangerous.

  515. #515 Antaeus Feldspar
    January 30, 2012

    disease is reparatory in nature, it is defensive, it is remedial, it has survival value: coughing, sneezing, fever, vomiting, diarrhoea, skin eruptions – these are not antagonistic to health, they are an expression of a healthy organism trying valiantly to remedy & normalize itself.

    Emily, you do realize that diarrhea is the second most common cause of infant deaths worldwide? Calling that “not antagonistic to health” makes you sound like a monster, frankly. Moreover, if your simplistic idea that “diarrhea and other disease symptoms are always good and bringing them under control is always bad” were true, the death tolls from diseases such as cholera that primarily kill through diarrhea and vomiting should be lower in the developing world where less medical care is available and higher in highly developed nations where medical care is more readily available. When we look at the actual evidence (which you should really try doing sometime) we see that the truth is exactly the opposite of what your natural hygiene beliefs predict.

    Will you ever start learning from your mistakes, Emily? Or would that be a bad thing because Dr. Shelton never said anything about learning from your mistakes and Dr. Shelton couldn’t possibly be wrong?

  516. #516 LW
    January 30, 2012

    “Emily, you do realize that diarrhea is the second most common cause of infant deaths worldwide?”

    No, she probably doesn’t. And won’t learn, either.

  517. #517 Narad
    January 30, 2012

    You also haven’t told me why my 3 children, have never had the flu ( in over 50 years in total) despite never being fluvaxed & despite residing next door to a virus colony.

    Emily, going 20 years without getting the flu is hardly uncommon. Adding a stupid flourish about living next to a “virus colony” doesn’t make it any more noteworthy, nor does it constitute a compelling argument against vaccination.

  518. #518 Krebiozen
    January 30, 2012

    I am much more interested in the decline of infectious diseases since 1890, well before widespread vaccinations or anti biotics became available.I’m not interested in a 10 year period where a drop occurred, in the context of a much longer & consistent drop prior.

    You miss Chris’s point entirely. Measles incidence didn’t drop before vaccination. Before vaccination was introduced 98% of people got measles in childhood, and the remaining 2% were unfortunate because they were likely to get it as an adult, when death and other unfortunate sequelae are more likely. Why did your children get measles? Did you neglect their health to such an extent their bodies had to produce a rash and a fever to recover? Why has there been a resurgence of measles in Europe? Have the French suddenly adopted a bad diet? Is the fall in vaccination uptake just a coincidence? Natural hygiene precepts fail to make any sense of what we observe of measles, as just one example.

  519. #519 Narad
    January 30, 2012

    And convulsions aren’t dangerous.

    Holy cats. No, pediatric febrile seizures don’t usually produce lasting damage. You know what helps in this regard? Not having meninfuckingitis. Breezily dismissing a complex seizure in the presence of fever isn’t a bright idea.

  520. #520 Chris
    January 30, 2012

    Emily, in her morning delusional dose presents us with:

    I am much more interested in the decline of infectious diseases since 1890, well before widespread vaccinations or anti biotics became available.I’m not interested in a 10 year period where a drop occurred, in the context of a much longer & consistent drop prior.

    I don’t care what interests you, I want you to answer the question as I asked it. Go back to where I asked up at comment #48 (Posted by: Chris | January 14, 2012 6:08 PM), where I said (with added formatting): Do not change the subject to mortality (deaths), any other country nor any other decade.

    In case you do not understand, 1890 is another decade! Stop avoiding the question, and answer it. Measles cycled between 200 to about 500 cases per 100000 over most of the twentieth century. Then it plummeted to under 25 cases per 100000 in one decade, and has never been greater than 12 per 100000 since (and 1990 was an epidemic year).

    If you are going to grace us with your brain droppings each morning, you can answer the question. Stop making excuses.

  521. #521 lilady
    January 30, 2012

    So Emily lives next door to a “virus factory”, eh? *And, what would her neighbors say about the wacko next door and her three rugs rats who have had measles and whose mother starves them at the first sign of illness.

    I had measles when I was 14 years old, along with my 15 year old and 20 year old siblings…rather unusual, because all of our peers in the neighborhood had the disease earlier in childhood. We survived measles unscathed but my cousin who had measles encephalopathy was left with lifelong neurological sequelae. Some of our peers had polio and a close childhood chum died from polio.

    My children born 1970 and 1976 and their peers never had measles due to the vaccine that was licensed and was given to them, but they each had chicken pox, before the vaccine became available. My son, who was severely handicapped, had the benefit of acyclovir which shortened the course and lessened the severity of the disease.

    What idiot makes a broad statement about seizures, except our resident bullshitter Emily? If she ever had a child with a seizure condition who went into status epilepticus and had Todd’s paralysis due to seizures, would she still make those silly statements?

    No Emily, you have failed to convince us that you have any education, any higher education degree, any “teaching credentials” and any employment in any health care field.

    * If Emily lived next door to me and I was aware of her neglectful and abusive treatment of her children, I would have reported her to child protective services.

  522. #522 Chris
    January 30, 2012

    lilady:

    If she ever had a child with a seizure condition who went into status epilepticus and had Todd’s paralysis due to seizures, would she still make those silly statements?

    I just skimmed her post after her excuse to not answer my question. To tell us that seizures are not dangerous is incredibly stupid. While febrile seizures are generally not dangerous, they do need to checked.

    My son has some permanent neurological damage, and yet the neurologist will only say the seizures may or may not be related (I’m pretty sure the last one during an illness, but with no fever, are related). In his special ed. preschool there were other kids with seizure issues, including one where he would stop breathing when he had a seizure (and whose younger brother had Landau-Kleffner Syndrome that required surgery).

  523. #523 flip
    January 30, 2012

    @508 Emily

    You also haven’t told me why my 3 children, have never had the flu ( in over 50 years in total) despite never being fluvaxed & despite residing next door to a virus colony.

    I’ve never had the flu, and I’ve only had a flu vax once in my life. My father has had flu on occasion when I was living with him but I never caught it. Funnily enough, life is more complicated than you are willing to admit. I may have a natural immunity, I may have been covered by herd immunity, or I may just be lucky. So many variables, so little time to explain it all. Your B&W worldview must save you a lot of thinking.

    NH is a completely different belief system.It doesn’t promote “cures” or treatments for disease because of reasons i’ve explained before: disease is natural when causes are introduced, the symptoms are the resistance, reparatory in nature & ALL having survival value.There is no such thing as “natural” health because any health one has, be it fragile or vigorous, is courtesy of mother nature! etc etc.

    So you’ve just redefined the word “treat”, and simultaneously contradicted every Natural Hygiene resource you’ve promoted. Can you please define your use of “disease”, “cause” and “treatment”?

    I still have no idea what these causes are in your worldview. Stating “disease is natural when causes are introduced” is about as informative as saying “popcorn is corn popped”. It’s circular argumentative reasoning and it’s not useful information.

    When you ask how does it “treat” this or that, which is how people have been conditioned to think in terms of their illnesses, you need to be addressing this to either a medical doctor or an “alternative” therapist, the former relying mostly on drugs & chemical/surgical interventions etc,the latter recommending anything from planet Mars Krill oil to quackapuncture.

    So what would you use instead? The principles of Natural Hygiene exist in order to do what? If they don’t “treat” are the principles designed to prevent illnesses? Or is it that Natural Hygiene is just an idea that is useless on any practical level? See you can go on about how my wording is incorrect due to “conditioning”, but that’s bullshit. We’re all using the English language here and unless you have some weird-ass dictionary with a different definition, my word = your word. If you have some sort of different meaning then be damn sure to give a definition of how you’re using it. Unless you are an absolute idiot, one can’t possibly state that the English language is a tool of Big Pharma. So do yourself a favour and use the words you intend in the manner in which we can understand them.

    But no, you’ll just proclaim that yet again I’m stupid and you’re the one being misunderstood. Here’s a clue: words have meaning. You need some serious education on linguistics.

    From a NH perspective, & perspective is critical in all life pursuits, there are basically 2 types of totally legitimate health modalities: NH & emergency & crisis surgery, all the rest is stamp collecting!

    So why is Natural Health useful if it does not “treat”? And that “perspective” of yours – yet another victim-blaming hand-waving canard. You may as well have written “other ways of knowing” or “negative thinking affects the outcome”. It would have been just as unoriginal.

    Flip, investigate the subtleties of NH yourself over time.

    I’d love to. Except the several hours I’ve wasted on it already have left me completely confused. I find nothing enlightening because it’s all written in a manner so vague as to be useless.

    I sincerely wish you well, & I wish we could meet someday & chat in detail, you sound like a good “aussie”. “

    Oh I see. I’m no longer some angry pawn of Big Pharma now am I? Say, I notice you still haven’t given me info about how you would “treat” me. You offered before remember? If Natural Hygiene does not cure or treat, then what in the world where you offering as a service before? Life guidance? Positive thinking? A course on meditation? What?

    @509 Emily

    I have stated before: disease is reparatory in nature, it is defensive, it is remedial, it has survival value: coughing, sneezing, fever, vomiting, diarrhoea, skin eruptions – these are not antagonistic to health, they are an expression of a healthy organism trying valiantly to remedy & normalize itself.

    Pray tell what is the reparatory nature of mental illness? Is schizophrenia – as one example – supposed to heal something? And what happens when the disease “repairs” to the point of the person dying? See your worldview only accounts for that pretty hazy Pride & Prejudice notion that illness is only ever minor and due to being poor. I suppose it would be in your world: where surgery/meds are a last resort (aka still used) and your financial status means you don’t see any death or life-changing injuries. Your modality only works if one has a common cold or something similarly mild. The reason why you never see any fatality when “piloting” someone with Natural Hygiene is probably that your “patients” are most undoubtedly rich enough to not have too many health problems.

    In other words, the disease & its symptoms ARE the resistance! You inhale dust, you cough. The coughing represents the resistance to the “causes” Do you need to “treat” the cough? NO!

    You’re a fucking idiot. Have you not ever experienced asthma? I have – and I’ve coughed as a symptom, often once every few seconds for hours on end. The only thing that prevented me from passing out from lack of ability to catch my breath – due to constant and deep coughing – was an inhaler. This is after a year or so of living with the problem, without having any medications of any sort. Changing my diet, cleaning the house, checking for allergens, getting more exercise (that was harder actually, because exercise makes it harder to breath not easier)… none of those things made the asthma go away. And neither did waiting around for it, and I had 2 trips to the ER because of lack of oxygen. Until I got the inhaler, which prevented the asthma. Yes, you do have to treat the cough. And while you’re at it, you treat the underlying cause which is your lungs being unable to inhale oxygen. Thank FSM for SBM!

    There’s no way in hell you’ve studied any kind of science. Just from my own experience I can prove you’re speaking bull. Like I said, in your world, the only problems you see are minor ones. Try spending some time next to a kid with pertussis or someone with asthma. You’d have them faint just so you can prove that coughing is “reparatory” and not at all dangerous; meanwhile they’d be desperately clawing for air.

    Yet another blatant example of victim blaming. I suppose some good positive thinking, quick “fasting” and harnessing “energy” would have stopped me from keeling over on a bus from the inability to breath.

    “Their little bodies are screaming for desistance & what do they get? Interference & anti-pyrretic insanity. And still it goes on.”

    FSM forbid we try and help people with medications. Someone notify Einstein – time works differently in Regina Emily’s land, whereby fasting/positive thinking/eating right/whatever creates an immediate positive benefit. Anyone who’s tried dieting would know that’s bull. Medications can be provided as a stop-gap *whilst* lifestyle changes and/or underlying causes are found. Interference *is* necessary and you contradict yourself again by saying that meds/surgery can be used but “interference” is bad. You are shockingly terrible at following your own train of thought to a conclusion.

    You know your mention of wanting to meet me? Well I don’t want to meet you. If I have an asthma attack you’ll deprive me of medications and expect me to just “wait it out”. I’ll faint and you’ll not call for help, you’ll just sit there and twiddle your thumbs. And you wonder why I sound angry.

    There should be more Drs Palevskis, Fuhrmans, Campbells, Goldhammers etc- health practitioners who do not belittle natural processes, but understand them.

    There are, you just refuse to admit that SBM doctors can and do recommend ‘natural’ health practices. You know what an SBM doctor recommended for my asthma? Checking to see if my lifestyle habits were affecting me. That was *before* prescribing medications.

    I wonder: do you read history books, or only things that were written by Natural Hygiene promoters? Ie. do you read anything pre- or post- Natural Hygiene was “invented”?

    I lastly note your pathetic avoidance of my comments about victim-blaming.

    @514 LW

    I agree. Emily’s not going to budge. Which is a pity, because if she did even a little, she might actually prevent someone from getting hurt. Namely, those people she “pilots”. Not “treats” because apparently that word is wrong.

    @516 Krebiozen

    Natural hygiene precepts fail to make any sense of what we observe of measles, as just one example.

    Natural Hygiene isn’t a “treatment”, it’s a “lifestyle”, therefore it doesn’t prevent or cure anything anyway. According to Emily’s logic.

  524. #524 herr doktor bimler
    January 30, 2012

    Emily:

    I am much more interested in the decline of infectious diseases since 1890, well before widespread vaccinations or anti biotics became available.I’m not interested in a 10 year period where a drop occurred

    This is a turnaround from her first comment on this thread (#39), the one that inspired Chris’ insistence:

    Let the truth be known. Vaccinations had very little, if anything, to do with the decline in infectious diseases over the past 100 years.

    So she is interested in the rate of infectious diseases over the “past 100 years”, unless the pattern contradicts her claim, in which case she is “not interested” in the evidence, and “past 100 years” means only certain decades.

    This is an understandable way to shield one’s beliefs from reality but it is not the way to convince people.

  525. #525 Denice Walter
    January 30, 2012

    @ flip:
    “one can’t possibly state that the English langiuage is a tool of Big Pharma.”

    I wouldn’t be so entirely sure of that, my love. Think about it.

  526. #526 alison
    January 30, 2012

    Flip, I’ll say it again – you are awesome. That is one thorough rebuttal. Thanks for taking the time to do it. (Please may I give you a ‘virtual’ hug? Although I gather you’re just across the ditch so we might actually meet one day.)

  527. #527 Denice Walter
    January 30, 2012

    @ mine… “language”

  528. #528 herr doktor bimler
    January 30, 2012

    Someone notify Einstein – time works differently in Regina Emily’s land

    You will recall that when challenged (in another thread) to explain the 1918-1919 Flu epidemic, Emily provided a list of non-viral factors causing people to develop influenza, which included the treatments they received after developing influenza.

  529. #529 flip
    January 30, 2012

    @523 Denice

    The important part of the sentence was “Unless you are an absolute idiot”. ;)

    And I notice I screwed up a blockquote above… Sigh.. The section ‘”Their little bodies are screaming for desistance & what do they get? Interference & anti-pyrretic insanity. And still it goes on.”‘ should be blockquoted.

    @524 Alison

    Thanks – and a virtual hug back! I hope NZ is doing better after all those earthquakes/after-shocks. The last one wasn’t too long ago was it?

    @526 Herr Doktor Bimler

    Maybe we should see if we can borrow her time machine. :)
    It’s all a bit timey-wimey in Emily’s world.

  530. #530 attack_laurel
    January 31, 2012

    Flip, awesome takedown. And yeah, I’m getting very tired of “Emily” not knowing the difference between blogging and commenting on a blog.

    Also, Emily is appalling in her declaration that diarrhea is “reparatory”, not the cause of thousands of child deaths each year. I bet my grandparents were delighted to know that the diarrhea that killed their eldest son before their eyes was “healing” him. But then, it goes along with starving her 3 – or is it 4? She’s claimed both – children, a charge which she has not bothered to answer, along with any actual questions put to her that require more than vague hand-waving before a gullible and adoring audience.

    Emily is not the Jedi that she was looking for.

  531. #531 alison
    January 31, 2012

    Thanks, Flip. Earthquakes – the last ‘big’ one for Christchurch was around Christmas, but my family down there (I’m up in Hamilton) tell me it’s still little ‘twitches’ on a regular basis. Not good.

  532. #532 Emily
    February 1, 2012

    re 507 Matthew Kline:

    So only some symptoms are reparatory?

    Pray tell, at what stage are symptoms non-reparatory.

    They are all reparatory in nature, under all circumstances & all conditions.

    I have covered this before, but again: by defining symptoms as defensive & self-regulatory, in no way implies they are always successful.

    A person who swallows a little poison, vomits, coughs, sweats & survives.

    Another takes a huge dose of poison, vomits, coughs, sweats & dies.

    Same symptoms, same processes, same regulatory effort on the part of the body, but entirely different outcomes.

    The causes are what kills, not the symptoms.

    It does not matter if the person has a cold, TB, pneumonia, cancer, pertussis or they have just swallowed a mouse, the coughing & all other symptoms,are always striving to keep us alive, even if unsuccessfully!!!!

  533. #533 Emily
    February 1, 2012

    re 511 LW:

    “That’s nice. But wouldn’t it be better to protect the healthy organism from the problem in the first place? You use the example of coughing in response to dust; some of us would put on a mask or go inside to get away from that dust. The point of a vaccination campaign is to keep disease away from the vulnerable who *can’t* “remedy and normalize” — like the ten babies who coughed themselves to death from pertussis last year in California”.

    You are quite right in trying to minimize the problem by staying out of the dust.That’s a no-brainer.

    However, you are incorrect when you state “to keep disease away”. Where is the disease? Show me the flu & I’ll hide from it. Show me measles lurking behind the bush & I’ll run from it. Disease has no entitative existence.

    The problem is that vaccines don’t “protect”. In fact the word protection is a medical SBM Type 2. That’s the fallacy of the medically trained mind.

    The only real protection is health!

  534. #534 Emily
    February 1, 2012

    re 512 LW:

    “Back in the Nineteenth Century, when your beliefs were formulated, a fatalistic acceptance that disease is normal and nothing can or should be done about it, except fresh air, sunshine, good food, and clean water, was a perfectly reasonable attitude and undoubtedly saved lives as against the medical science of the day.

    But you’re talking to people who live in the Twenty-First Century, and your beliefs are silly when they’re not actively dangerous”.

    Firstly LW, you haven’t understood from previous posts that disease is NOT normal, it is natural! Health is both natural & normal.

    Why is disease natural? Because certain specific causes are introduced, either recently or distantly into our existence.

    These causes are responded to defensively by the organism in the form of symptoms.

    If the person who either has the symptoms or is a carer for the sufferer, acts in an enlightened,intelligent & rational, way by manipulating certain biological variables within the patient’s control, the chances that the symptoms will be successful greatly improve.

    For example,when our 3 kids got measles, they all started feeling poorly, were tired & anorexic. They had become enervated through much overseas travel at the time, & were in fact very run down. Their diets had been compromised, they all had experienced interrupted sleep for days & they were forced to sleep on planes at irregular hours.

    It didn’t surprise us that they became sick.

    The early prodromal signs of their illness were responded to by us by promptly getting home asap & resting them. They then developed the typical rash, slept for 2 days, abstained of their own volition from all food for 24-36 hours, depending on the child,then drank diluted juices & a little fruit for a day, & they were all fine.

    That’s what I mean by intelligent management.

    We were not overly concerned, & were not panicked by the fact that it was measles.

    We saw their symptoms, understood their bodies were working as designed, & acted in their best interests. We took excellent care of them in this manner, & they learnt some wonderful lessons.

    If all doctors were trained in these priceless but powerful principles, there would less tragic sequelae.

  535. #535 Emily
    February 1, 2012

    Re 513 Antaeus Feldspar

    “Emily, you do realize that diarrhea is the second most common cause of infant deaths worldwide? Calling that “not antagonistic to health” makes you sound like a monster, frankly. Moreover, if your simplistic idea that “diarrhea and other disease symptoms are always good and bringing them under control is always bad” were true, the death tolls from diseases such as cholera that primarily kill through diarrhea and vomiting should be lower in the developing world where less medical care is available and higher in highly developed nations where medical care is more readily available. When we look at the actual evidence (which you should really try doing sometime) we see that the truth is exactly the opposite of what your natural hygiene beliefs predict”.

    Don’t fabricate things. Your supposed quote is not mine, so please don’t attribute that to me.

    Where did I say symptoms are always good? I said they were always defensive, but not always successful.

    The tragic case of diarrhoea in babies never invalidates the priciple that their little bodies are still valiantly trying to expel toxins through the bowels.

    It is STILL defensive. Just not successful, due to many reasons, one of which would be malnutrition.

    Your example at the end is flawed because it rests on the false premise I’ve just mentioned.

    In reality, the real cause of death was not the diarrhoea, but the CAUSES of why the diarrhoea was mounted in this fashion.

    The real reason people die after being burned is not because their bodies mounted an over-enthusiastic fluid loss or whatever symptoms were manifested, but because of the FIRE.

  536. #536 Matthew Cline
    February 1, 2012

    @Emily:

    by defining symptoms as defensive & self-regulatory,

    As an example, lets take tetanus, which produces tetanus toxin (tetanospasmin), which leads to uncontrollable muscle contractions. So, by this definition, the uncontrollable muscle contractions of tetanus is something other than a symptom? If so, I understand my previous confusion. However, I have to note that you’re going to confuse a lot of people, since the vast majority of people are going to be using a different definition of “symptom” than you. I mean, by that definition, many poisons don’t cause any symptoms at all.

    Getting back to things like fever and diarrhea: lets say that someone has a fever of 109 °F. Is it your claim that the fever, in and of itself, will cause no damage to the person? Or is it that, if the 109 °F fever causes any harm, it has ceased to be a symptom?

    Or lets consider cholera and diarrhea. The cholera bacteria releases a toxin which directly causes the intestinal lining to pump lots of water into the intestines, hence the copious diarrhea. Does this make cholera diarrhea not a symptom?

  537. #537 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    “The problem is that vaccines don’t “protect”. In fact the word protection is a medical SBM Type 2. That’s the fallacy of the medically trained mind.

    The only real protection is health!”

    So sez, the “hygienist” who has no education at all in the basic sciences, who starves her (3? or 4?) kids when they are ill, who is clueless about water fasts and electrolyte balances, in la-la land when she posts about nutrients and balanced diets, is more than a few cans short of a six-pack and believes in fairy tale science.

    What Emily cannot locate on “Google”, she makes up and deluges us with her factoids. Just another dumber than dumb, thick as a plank, neuron-challenged troll.

    Thanks for playing bullshit bingo with us, Emily.

  538. #538 Matthew Cline
    February 1, 2012

    @Emily:

    The real reason people die after being burned is not because their bodies mounted an over-enthusiastic fluid loss or whatever symptoms were manifested, but because of the FIRE.

    When a person with tetanus has uncontrollable muscle contractions, are those contractions the body’s effort to expel and/or detoxify the tetanus toxin?

  539. #539 alison
    February 1, 2012

    Disease has no entitative existence.
    Germ theory denial? Check.

    The problem is that vaccines don’t “protect
    Anti-vaccination? Check.

    Just not successful, due to many reasons, one of which would be malnutrition. If only they’d eaten better!
    It’s the victim’s fault for Not Doing It Right? Check.

    Now, if you’d just answer my previous question regarding evolution, Emily, I suspect I’d have a full house.

  540. #540 Emily
    February 1, 2012

    re Narad 515:

    “Emily, going 20 years without getting the flu is hardly uncommon. Adding a stupid flourish about living next to a “virus colony” doesn’t make it any more noteworthy, nor does it constitute a compelling argument against vaccination”

    No it might not be uncommon, I agree, but what would be uncommon would be to raise 3 healthy children who have never seen a SBM doctor Type1 or an SBM type 2, nor never had any medication, never had any chiropractic manipulation, nor any vaccinations allpathically or homeopathically, no herbal concoctions, no supplements.

    In other words, none of your supposed, imaginary “protection”

    And again please don’t attribute statements to me that I never made.

    I never said IT, by itself, made “a compelling argument against vaccinations”.

    What is compelling is one’s common sense that you don’t inject a baby who is not even 24 hours out of the mother’s womb, with a cocktail of polysorbate 80, formaldehyde, aluminium, various adjuvants & other chemicals against a disease which is highly unlikely to threaten.

    That, Narad, is my definition of insanity.

  541. #541 Emily
    February 1, 2012

    re 516 Krebiozen:

    “You miss Chris’s point entirely. Measles incidence didn’t drop before vaccination. Before vaccination was introduced 98% of people got measles in childhood, and the remaining 2% were unfortunate because they were likely to get it as an adult, when death and other unfortunate sequelae are more likely. Why did your children get measles? Did you neglect their health to such an extent their bodies had to produce a rash and a fever to recover? Why has there been a resurgence of measles in Europe? Have the French suddenly adopted a bad diet? Is the fall in vaccination uptake just a coincidence? Natural hygiene precepts fail to make any sense of what we observe of measles, as just one example”.

    a) You’re right. I did miss his point- measles incidence did not drop before widespread vaccinations, but mortality did drop, from about 1890.

    b) The reaon why they got sick was stated in another post a few minutes ago.

    c) Enervation & toxemia are the results of many things, not just a bad diet.

    Herbert Shelton had an exemplary diet most of his 90 years, but still developed a neurological disease the last few years of his life. Why? Because he had pushed himself mercilessly most of his adult life, been jailed 4 times,worked his freckles off around the clock & became profoundly enervated.

    Food is but one factor!

    c) We simply have to agree to disagree on Natural Hygiene.

  542. #542 alison
    February 1, 2012

    been jailed 4 times

    & what was he jailed for? & Emily – stop galloping long enough to respond to my comment @ 536 above…

  543. #543 Emily
    February 1, 2012

    re matthew Kline @ 533

    “Getting back to things like fever and diarrhea: lets say that someone has a fever of 109 °F. Is it your claim that the fever, in and of itself, will cause no damage to the person? Or is it that, if the 109 °F fever causes any harm, it has ceased to be a symptom?”

    Firstly, a fever of that height is, in my experience & IMO, generally caused by interference with the earlier fever & other prodromal symptoms.

    That is why I ask the question how many children have tragically perished over the last 100 years & more by well-meaning but poorly informed parents, doctors & nurses, continually trying to drive the fever down.

    Another anecdote, not to prove something, but simply to make a point of the dangers of this interference.

    A number of years ago we were living in an Asian country. Asians have a paranoid, irrational fear of fevers & call increases in temperature “high fever”.

    An aquaintance of ours had a 7 year old boy who became sick. No prior history. No red flags. His temp. rose. Off to the doctor. Anti pyretics given. Fever dropped. Next day, spiked. Again, off to doc. More drugs, only stronger.Spiked again.The boy was encouraged to eat “to keep his strength up” despite obvious anorexia. This pattern went on for four & a half days, at which point the boy collapsed & was rushed to hospital, floppy, incoherent & with an uncontrollable temperature. On the 5th day he tragically died, resisting all heroic attempts to keep him alive.

    The parents told us he died from “high fever”. The fever did not kill him. The drugs & the dangerous & foolhardy interference killed him.

    The case still makes me sad, to this day, because that beautiful boy would now be 17 & just about to bloom.

  544. #544 alison
    February 1, 2012

    As you say, Emily, this is simply anecdote. But the only reason for you to produce it is because you are still trying to prove something. (Why else say, to make a point?) There would surely have been a post-mortem examination in a case like this, where a child dies suddenly – what was the recorded cause of death? Because, Emily, something like meningitis can cause many of these symptoms (http://www.everybody.co.nz/page-3c9368f4-0ff8-4e94-880e-b4993b9ca20c.aspx) – & the only thing likely to be achieved by leaving a child with meningitis alone is that they’ll die faster.

    So please just stop spinning this BS.

  545. #545 Emily
    February 1, 2012

    re Lilady @ 519
    “* If Emily lived next door to me and I was aware of her neglectful and abusive treatment of her children, I would have reported her to child protective services”

    That is why Dr mendelsohn wrote his book Confessions of a Medical Heretic, warning people that the future of medicine was as The Church of Modern Medicine, where the populace were largely controlled by the High Priests, & if you went against their Holy Sacraments (read vaccinations), then you were ostracized & punished.The priests (SBM Type 2)have exclusive rights to the ability to read & think, the implications being obvious when people of your arrogance ask: are you a real doctor?

    You make a good Priestess. Anyone who sits on the other side of the medico/big pharma fence is to be punished because of your incredibly dangerous narrow mindedness.

    You have displayed your true ignorance by continually & ignorantly referring to “starving” & other frogshit statements, such as “neglectful & abusive treatment”, with no evidence whatsoever.

    How have I been neglectful & abusive? Because I didn’t vaccinate? Because I listened to my children’s bodies & respected that? Because I didn’t force feed them against their needs? Tell me, & show evidence of your charges. You won’t because you have none, & if you could see my family at this very minute,their health, happiness & the love we have for each other & life itself, you would, if you were a half-decent human being, apologize for such hurtful, unfounded remarks.

    You represent the same kind of danger that the KKK represented just because someone had a different colour.

    You don’t believe in evidence-based medicine, yours is eminence-based medicine.

  546. #546 alison
    February 1, 2012

    Since it doesn’t look like my question at 538 is going to get an answer from Emily, I’ve done a quick bit of homework. Here’s the relevant bit from Shelton’s Wikipedia entry:

    A pacifist, Shelton was jailed in 1917 for making an anti-draft statement in public.
    In 1927, he was arrested, jailed and fined three times for practicing medicine without a license. These arrests continued periodically through the next three decades while he continued to lecture and campaign for his ideas.[2]
    In 1932, Shelton was jailed repeatedly for practicing medicine without a license. Found guilty of violating the Medical Practice Act, he served 30 days on Rikers Island.
    In 1942, Shelton was charged with negligent homicide and “treating and offering to treat a human being without a state medical license” for starving a patient to death.[2] The case was never tried and charges were dropped.
    In 1978, another patient died at one of his schools (unverified), this time apparently of a heart attack (unverified). After a two-year-long court battle, Shelton lost the lawsuit for negligence and was bankrupted by the judgment.[2] The school closed as a result.

    One does feel rather sorry for those he ‘practised’ on…

  547. #547 Agashem
    February 1, 2012

    So would Emily and her natural health (again what is unnatural health) be willing to be experimented upon? Really, if they want us all to even consider that they have a point, they should be eager to show us all wrong. I propose the following experiments. Let us inject Emily and other NH proponents with a live virus of their choosing. Let us then follow how well they manage the symptoms and recover. That would be an interesting study. Or if they object to an injection, let’s take them to an area of the world with a particularly ‘lively’ outbreak of something, maybe polio (although that is increasingly rare, hmm wonder why) and have them live and interact with the local population for three months. Let’s then record how many got sick or not and how they managed. Are you game, Emily? I am still reeling that you lived in Asia with unvaccinated children (although I realize there are areas of Asia with good vaccination records but certainly others not so much).

  548. #548 Beamup
    February 1, 2012

    Emily does not seem to realize the difference between persecuting someone for their beliefs vs. recognizing them as an actual threat to the life and limb of everyone they encounter.

    If even a fraction of what Emily claims is true, she has almost certainly killed people.

  549. #549 Denice Walter
    February 1, 2012

    Here’s a really awful thought: Shelton was jailed but today people who function similarly are often not.

    From my own vantage point, I have heard a particular woo-meister “counsel” people about serious illness, bragging about his experience with “70,000” followers, tossing around words like “clinical”/”protocols”/ “lay people”** and facillitating woo-centric groups, employing nutritionists/ counsellors to sell supplements ( live and by phone) and more generally, scaring them about SBM through lectures, films and books.

    Then, if you think about their beliefs ( nutrition rules/ anti-pharma) and you see this appellation gracing other woo-providers’ CVs and websites, there must be a whole lot of “counselling” going on – and it isn’t the kind that I do ( based on standard degrees & training). In addition, there are NDs, struck-off doctors, herbalists, chiropractors, yoga/ exercise teachers and folks who work in health food/ supplement shops “counselling”; people look to sites like AoA to find “treatments” for kids who have ASDs. Mike Adams tells you to fear pharma, then provides a treatment plan he dreamed up. Like an iceberg, much of alt med’s influence lies hidden from view.

    ** in true cargo-cult fashion.

  550. #550 TBruce
    February 1, 2012

    Emily:

    You are awfully fond of quoting Dr. Mendelsohn on the evils of modern medicine. Here’s a question for you:
    Dr. Mendelsohn died at a relatively young age (62, I believe). He expressed an implacable hostility towards modern medicine. What did he rely on for his health care, and why did it fail?

  551. #551 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    No Emily you are wrong. You don’t have a clue about normal human physiology and certainly not pathophysiology. Your continued use of the catchall “dis-ease” is a tip-off. Your misunderstanding of which specific viruses and which specific bacteria actual cause the diseases you speak of, only display your ignorance of all things scientific.

    I earned my place in nursing by actually attending a university, passing my nursing boards and remain licensed in good standing as a registered nurse. You, on the other hand, speak vaguely about teaching “health” somewhere, have never been awarded a degree in “hygienics” (whatever that is), discuss your “knowledge” of diets (nutrients manufactured by a starving, fasting body?) and medically neglected your 3? or 4? children.

    When pinned down for one of your inane statements, you flit to another subject, the typical behavior of an ignorant, troll.

    Stop the bullshit Emily, you’re stinking up the blog.

  552. #552 Calli Arcale
    February 1, 2012

    Emily:

    Firstly, a fever of that height is, in my experience & IMO, generally caused by interference with the earlier fever & other prodromal symptoms.

    Your experience? How do you *know*? You refuse to keep any sort of records that would allow you to test that. Are you so arrogant that you cannot contemplate the idea that you’ve merely been *lucky* and never had to treat a patient with a really high fever?

    It’s true — most fevers that the average person will encounter are self-limiting. They’ll resolve no matter what you do or don’t do. I contend that this is all you’ve seen; people who follow your advice and fast get better because they would have gotten better anyway. My contention is what we call the “null hypothesis” — it’s what would happen if you’re wrong, and in science, you have to consider that possibility. It is hubris to do otherwise, to think that you are so smart, so perfect, that you cannot be wrong and thus do not need to test for that possibility.

    And I don’t want to hear any excuses about “well, doctors don’t check to see if their drugs are necessary for relieving fever!” That’s not important. We’re talking about what *you* do, not what they do. Have *you* done the homework to be sure you are treating your patients to the best of your ability? Or are you just assuming that you are?

    The parents told us he died from “high fever”. The fever did not kill him. The drugs & the dangerous & foolhardy interference killed him.

    That makes you sad? It makes me furious. Not because the boy died; that happens, and it’s always a tragedy. But that you would pile on that tragedy and blame his parents for taking him to get proper medical care, and say that’s what caused his demise. Yes, high fever can kill, directly, though if the fever is from an infection, it’s more likely the infection caused the death. Of course, *you* know all the answers.

    I wonder: how would you have treated me, when I was four and developed a high temperature? (107. No, antipyretics did not cause that. It happened on its own.) In addition to the high fever, I was vomiting, and had a terrible headache. According to my parents, I was hallucinating as well. This all flared up very quickly, within hours. My parents took me to the emergency room. What would you have done, Emily?

  553. #553 Stu
    February 1, 2012

    Calli, don’t be stupid. Fasting, of course.

  554. #554 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    February 1, 2012

    Fasting? I thought you were supposed to feed a fever.

  555. #555 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    Getting back on topic now…Ace Reporter Boy Wonder, Wakefield Stooge Jake Crosby’s latest six degrees, sixty degrees or 600 degrees of separation rant is the featured article on today’s AoA website:

    Alice Park and TIME: Great Media Frauds

    Jake is pissed that Alice Park writing for the Time Magazine Healthland blog “Great Science Frauds” (January 12, 2012), featured his hero Andy Wakefield.

    Can anyone decipher the interconnections and the degrees of separation vis-a-vis Ms. Park, Time Magazine and the forces of Big Pharma and other evils, that Jake has outlined?

    Wouldn’t it be better if Jake included a diagram, to prove his degrees of separation?

    Is anyone concerned about his fanboi fixation of Wakefield?

  556. #556 Narad
    February 1, 2012

    No it might not be uncommon, I agree, but what would be uncommon would be to raise 3 healthy children who have never seen a SBM doctor Type1 or an SBM type 2, nor never had any medication, never had any chiropractic manipulation, nor any vaccinations allpathically or homeopathically, no herbal concoctions, no supplements.

    This is a non sequitur. In addition, this “an SBM type 2″ coinage that you’ve come up with has got to be clumsiest boneheaded neologism that I’ve ever heard. You can’t even decide what indefinite article it takes or what part of speech it is.

    In other words, none of your supposed, imaginary “protection”

    And again please don’t attribute statements to me that I never made.

    I never said IT, by itself, made “a compelling argument against vaccinations”.

    Oh, quit whining about imagined misattributions. It in fact is your argument: Look, no vaccines, didn’t get anything! Proof that vaccines are unnecessary!

  557. #557 Narad
    February 1, 2012

    Herbert Shelton had an exemplary diet most of his 90 years, but still developed a neurological disease the last few years of his life. Why? Because he had pushed himself mercilessly most of his adult life, been jailed 4 times,worked his freckles off around the clock & became profoundly enervated.

    Last “few” years? He was bedridden for well over a decade.

    Anyway, what does “profoundly enervated” mean? Is “nerve energy” replenished by rest, or isn’t it? Is there some critical density of “nerve energy”? If so, why wouldn’t it just promptly run out entirely below this point?

    (In other news, I have learned that neurosis is a necessary precondition of asthma.)

  558. #558 herr doktor bimler
    February 1, 2012

    Don’t fabricate things. Your supposed quote is not mine, so please don’t attribute that to me.

    This is from Emily, whose comment #342 attributes a fabricated statement about swine-flu vaccine to a Prof. Peter Collignon, and fails even on the name of his academic affiliation. She seems to regard her sources as ventriloquist dummies, who can be made to mouth whatever bullshit comes into her head.

    Every time someone has checked one of her references, its actual contents prove to be quite different from her claim. Every.single.time. Who can forget this comment in which she turns “24 days of hibernation” into “seven months of fasting”?

    And now she is complaining about fabrication and miattribution. Heh.

  559. #559 madder
    February 1, 2012

    @Narad–

    I don’t think Emily’s “misattributions” are imagined; rather they’re fabricated.

    Emily at 509: (emphasis added)

    I have stated before: disease is reparatory in nature, it is defensive, it is remedial, it has survival value: coughing, sneezing, fever, vomiting, diarrhoea, skin eruptions – these are not antagonistic to health, they are an expression of a healthy organism trying valiantly to remedy & normalize itself.

    Emily denies her own words: (emphasis added again)

    Re 513 Antaeus Feldspar

    “Emily, you do realize that diarrhea is the second most common cause of infant deaths worldwide? Calling that “not antagonistic to health” makes you sound like a monster, frankly. Moreover, if your simplistic idea that “diarrhea and other disease symptoms are always good and bringing them under control is always bad” were true, the death tolls from diseases such as cholera that primarily kill through diarrhea and vomiting should be lower in the developing world where less medical care is available and higher in highly developed nations where medical care is more readily available. When we look at the actual evidence (which you should really try doing sometime) we see that the truth is exactly the opposite of what your natural hygiene beliefs predict”.

    Don’t fabricate things. Your supposed quote is not mine, so please don’t attribute that to me.

    Emily is a liar.

  560. #560 herr doktor bimler
    February 1, 2012

    A challenge for the community: Find one of Emily’s citations where her description of the contents is not fabricated, and is actually supported by the cited source.

  561. #561 madder
    February 1, 2012

    Well, rats. I also made merry with her claims of misattribution, and even used the word “fabricated.” But mine got caught up by the moderation filter! (sniffle)

  562. #562 alison
    February 1, 2012

    herr doktor @ 557: boy are you a hard taskmaster or what? That would be like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack (if we are restricting ourselves to published scientific papers, that is – she’s probably fairly accurate on the woo-meister websites).

  563. #563 herr doktor bimler
    February 1, 2012

    I should myself take the trouble to credit JGC for fact-checking the citation about dwarf lemurs going “for 7 months without any food”.

  564. #564 Emily
    February 2, 2012

    re 550 Calli :

    “It’s true — most fevers that the average person will encounter are self-limiting. They’ll resolve no matter what you do or don’t do”.

    Nonsense & you DON’T know it, & therin lies the problem. Read Fever: Metabolic Asset or Liability? Organ Metabolism & Nutrition; 1994 & learn something about fevers.

    Try feeding, exercising & drugging anyone with a fever & see if that spontaneously resolves, like you assert. Good luck.

    “Your experience? How do you *know*? You refuse to keep any sort of records that would allow you to test that”

    You obviously have no experience at all.

    I refuse to keep any records, now you assert, again without any evidence. Why do you medical sycophants have to fabricate things, is it because you have so little knowledge of natural principles in health, you then attack the player not the ball?

    “That makes you sad? It makes me furious. Not because the boy died; that happens, and it’s always a tragedy. But that you would pile on that tragedy and blame his parents for taking him to get proper medical care, and say that’s what caused his demise. Yes, high fever can kill, directly, though if the fever is from an infection, it’s more likely the infection caused the death. Of course, *you* know all the answers”.

    Miss ignoramus attacking the player again. I never blame the sufferer.I blame the causes of the disease. If the causes are adopted by a person, like smoking, drinking, jumping off a building, then, it’s called responsibility.

    Doesn’t your beloved SBM say smoking causes lung cancer? Who’s blaming who?

    And I don’t know all the answers, I’m not young enough for that.

    But I do know some things. And I know this. Had that little boy been looked after hygienically,instead of continually drugged by an SBM (Seriously Bad Medic), he would have had an infinitely better chance of celebrating his 17th birthday this year.

    I also know that you see nothing wrong with prescibing anti-pyretics for 4 consecutive days to a febrile boy, who was only deteriorating, all the while defending such actions as “proper medical care”.

    Just imagine if that little boy was taken to a “real”doctor, but one who practiced differently, not so quick to use drugs. Would you remain silent then? No way!

    What if the boy had been taken to CAM doctor, you would be calling for his/her head.

    But no, your attitude is, if a “real” doctor is involved, dishing out “real medicine” then too bad. We’ll all shut up, say bad luck, better luck next time & we’ll all go to the Holy Church of Modern Medicine next Sunday.

    No wonder there are literally millions of people visiting AltMed practitioners, flocking to alternative websites & questioning the medical love-in with Big Pharma. And it will increase,as the truth gradually comes out.

    You’re part of the problem, not the solution.

  565. #565 flip
    February 2, 2012

    @529 Alison

    Yeah, those constant aftershocks must be a bitch. I didn’t really realise until the NZ shocks happened that Aussies are pretty lucky. No fault lines, few hurricanes, tsunamis or other things. Then again, we get bushfires, droughts and floods. I hope it settles down for all of us, but it sounds like it’s only getting worse – potentially due to AGW.

    @530 Emily

    It does not matter if the person has a cold, TB, pneumonia, cancer, pertussis or they have just swallowed a mouse, the coughing & all other symptoms,are always striving to keep us alive, even if unsuccessfully!!!!

    Yes, and what if the issue is asthma? Coughing certainly doesn’t allow a person to breath better, and yet that’s exactly one of the symptoms that can occur when one is trying to do just that. Also, if all that stuff is designed to keep us alive (“even if unsuccessfully”), what’s the point of doing nothing again?

    As usual the rest of your comment is contradictory with your other statements/beliefs and totally devoid of definitions/specificity which would make your words have any useful meaning. There’s no way you would have studied science even in high school, as it would have taught you that observing the real world is necessary to understanding it. In the real world, the body doesn’t have unlimited ability to repair itself. In the real world, autoimmune diseases exist. In the real world, you would be killing your patients because you don’t bother to observe and notate anything properly.

    @531 Emily

    You are quite right in trying to minimize the problem by staying out of the dust.That’s a no-brainer.

    And when removing oneself from a dusty area doesn’t solve the issue? I cleaned every inch of my house and still was asthmatic.

    However, you are incorrect when you state “to keep disease away”. Where is the disease? Show me the flu & I’ll hide from it. Show me measles lurking behind the bush & I’ll run from it. Disease has no entitative existence.

    Where did all those microorganisms go? You started off your arguments talking about them and now you act like they don’t exist. Ah, the “I can’t see it so it’s not there” fallacy again.

    The problem is that vaccines don’t “protect”. In fact the word protection is a medical SBM Type 2. That’s the fallacy of the medically trained mind.

    Yeah, you need to take an English course. You use words in ways most people don’t.

    The only real protection is health!

    Translates to: be healthy by being healthy. No, no circular reasoning there.

    @532 Emily

    Why is disease natural? Because certain specific causes are introduced, either recently or distantly into our existence.

    In other words, victim blaming.

    You know what would be nice – if you actually specified what these “causes” were.

    If the person who either has the symptoms or is a carer for the sufferer, acts in an enlightened,intelligent & rational, way by manipulating certain biological variables within the patient’s control, the chances that the symptoms will be successful greatly improve.

    More victim blaming.

    For example,when our 3 kids got measles, they all started feeling poorly, were tired & anorexic. They had become enervated through much overseas travel at the time, & were in fact very run down. Their diets had been compromised, they all had experienced interrupted sleep for days & they were forced to sleep on planes at irregular hours.

    Oh, so now they didn’t choose to not eat, they were experiencing “anorexia” and “dietary compromise”? Shit, that pedestal of yours gets higher and higher, Regina Emily. You contradict yourself even in the next paragraph.

    You know what I love about you? Your complete refusal to get away from anecdotes and your several admissions that anecdotes aren’t data. And yet you continue to do it anyway!

    @533 Emily

    The tragic case of diarrhoea in babies never invalidates the priciple that their little bodies are still valiantly trying to expel toxins through the bowels.

    It is STILL defensive. Just not successful, due to many reasons, one of which would be malnutrition.

    You seem to not understand the word “trying” or “successful”. Yes, some mechanisms are designed to save the body. The point is that they don’t always work. And two results occur: one, that a person dies; two, that a person lives with injuries that make their life difficult. And of course in order to prevent either one, a person must intervene in that “defensive” process. You agree with this: and yet you disagree.

    Sigh… I wish you’d just pick a side and stick with it.

    Your example at the end is flawed because it rests on the false premise I’ve just mentioned.

    Or the problem is with you.

    In reality, the real cause of death was not the diarrhoea, but the CAUSES of why the diarrhoea was mounted in this fashion.

    Yeah yeah sure sure. Circular reasoning again whereby the cause is something magical and ethereal and incapable of being described, but somehow manages to be both a symptom/cause or treatment. Or something. I can’t keep track anymore.

    ‘Fess up Emily: I’d have more respect for you if you just admitted to victim-blaming and a lack of experience with actual life-threatening illnesses. It’d be just as annoying but at least it would be honest. Skirting around everything and acting like you’ve got nothing to hide in the meantime is just pure wrongness.

    The real reason people die after being burned is not because their bodies mounted an over-enthusiastic fluid loss or whatever symptoms were manifested, but because of the FIRE.

    Yet another example where you say a cause for something irrelevant like it somehow proves some other cause is true. IF HYPOTHESIS A IS TRUE, THAT DOES NOT MEAN HYPOTHESIS B IS ALSO TRUE. IF HYPOTHESIS A IS FALSE, THAT DOES NOT PROVE HYPOTHESIS B TRUE. Each stands and falls on its own merits.

    As Lilady said at #535 “Thanks for playing bullshit bingo with us, Emily.” That was fun… but when you start reusing the same bingo slots it’s time to move on.

    @537 Alison

    Now, if you’d just answer my previous question regarding evolution, Emily, I suspect I’d have a full house.

    And she’d end up having a few cards short of a deck ;)

    @538 Emily

    In other words, none of your supposed, imaginary “protection”

    Your kids still aren’t “protected”. What you live in a world where broken legs never happen? Oh right, your kids DIDN’T get the flu after all…. sigh…

    If Natural Hygiene works so well, how come they got the flu?

    What is compelling is one’s common sense that you don’t inject a baby who is not even 24 hours out of the mother’s womb, with a cocktail of polysorbate 80, formaldehyde, aluminium, various adjuvants & other chemicals against a disease which is highly unlikely to threaten.

    My definition of insanity is being too darn biased to understand that “common sense” is a lie. And once again, you’re ignoring replies on previously covered issues.

    @539 Emily

    Enervation & toxemia are the results of many things, not just a bad diet.

    Yeah, but seeing as how you couldn’t be bothered explaining what either of those two things are, I’d say it’s irrelevant as a point proving your side. PS. You don’t explain what those “other things” are again. Boy you really don’t like specificity do you?

    Herbert Shelton had an exemplary diet most of his 90 years, but still developed a neurological disease the last few years of his life. Why? Because he had pushed himself mercilessly most of his adult life, been jailed 4 times,worked his freckles off around the clock & became profoundly enervated.

    I suppose those judges were in on the Big Milk conspiracy too.

    We simply have to agree to disagree on Natural Hygiene.

    Well, there’s one thing I can agree on ;)

    @541 Emily

    Firstly, a fever of that height is, in my experience & IMO, generally caused by interference with the earlier fever & other prodromal symptoms.

    Victim blaming.

    That is why I ask the question how many children have tragically perished over the last 100 years & more by well-meaning but poorly informed parents, doctors & nurses, continually trying to drive the fever down.

    Victim blaming.

    The parents told us he died from “high fever”. The fever did not kill him. The drugs & the dangerous & foolhardy interference killed him.

    Victim blaming, with an overall dash of unabashedly being unable or unwilling to state why anyone gets sick in the first place. But I guess in a world where nothing is fatal or remotely injurious, one can get away with that crap. Man, I wish I lived in your fantasy world, it sounds so much better than my mentally-ill one. What is the cause of mental illness by the way?

    @543 Emily

    A whole comment about conspiracies and religion. And no evidence to back anything up. Utterly utterly predictably FAIL.

    You have displayed your true ignorance by continually & ignorantly referring to “starving” & other frogshit statements, such as “neglectful & abusive treatment”, with no evidence whatsoever.

    And you’ve never defined your terms in such a way as to be understandable by anyone but yourself. If you can’t even be bothered to explain the basics, then I think I can dismiss the rest out of hand.

    How have I been neglectful & abusive? Because I didn’t vaccinate? Because I listened to my children’s bodies & respected that? Because I didn’t force feed them against their needs? Tell me, & show evidence of your charges. You won’t because you have none, & if you could see my family at this very minute,their health, happiness & the love we have for each other & life itself, you would, if you were a half-decent human being, apologize for such hurtful, unfounded remarks.

    You’re the one making the claim that it works; you’re the one that needs to show the evidence. Vaccines have plenty of evidence that they do work and with minimal risk; you’re the one who needs to show that they don’t.

    If I saw your family, I have no doubt that you genuinely love them and will do anything you can to help them. That doesn’t make you right, and it doesn’t make you anything other than either seriously deluded, ignorant of proper logic and science, or extremely misinformed. I won’t apologise for thinking you are ignorant of the evidence and/or blinded by your own bias. My mother happens to believe in a lot of incorrect medical stuff too, but that doesn’t prevent me from appreciating and understanding her need to try to help; she’s just misinformed and/or ignorant of many medical issues and not well-educated at spotting logical fallacies. She also doesn’t realise the importance of reading the research despite being a smart person in general; she tends to take people’s word for it when it comes to medical issues. I have the same opinion of her as I do of you, with one minor exception: she doesn’t try to “pilot” other people and for that you have earned less respect.

    You represent the same kind of danger that the KKK represented just because someone had a different colour.

    Yeah, this is *exactly* the same as that. Godwinned again.

    PS. It’s never a good idea to try that tactic with someone with Jewish heritage. It only convinces them that you’re even more of an ass than they originally thought.

  566. #566 flip
    February 2, 2012

    Is it me or is Emily now actively avoiding my comments?

    I guess I must have posed questions and written comments that cut way too close for her comfort. I guess she can’t admit her own bias is the same of other humans. I guess she can’t account for luck. She can’t account for her own financial priviledge or her lack of understanding of history. She can’t account for the fact that the “fallen human” has not walked away from the “natural order of things”.

    I guess she can’t succinctly define “causes”, “disease”, “illness”, “treatment” or “cure”. She can’t state *what* the real causes of things are. I guess she can’t offer me suggestions for treating mental illness, even though she offered. I guess she can’t explain what the cause of mental illness is. She can’t explain why I am still sick even though I follow most of Natural Hygiene’s principles and have avoided many “medical interventions” and have waited for my body to repair itself. She can’t explain what it is my body is trying to repair.

    I guess she can’t state what her credentials are. She can’t succinctly answer Chris’ question without doing a song-and-dance. I guess she can’t explain the toxemia term or succinctly describe the biologicial processes of a Natural Hygiene lifestyle. And I guess she can’t succinctly describe the biologicial processes that make fasting different from starving.

    As she is now ignoring me because of all those hard questions, I’ll return the favour :)

    I remain completely and utterly underwhelmed at the explanatory power and efficacy of Natural Hygiene (and/or Emily’s ability to explain anything of informative value) and seriously concerned for anyone Emily comes into contact with. Thanks for playing and goom-bye.

  567. #567 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    flip:

    Is it me or is Emily now actively avoiding my comments?

    No. It is not you, it is Emily.

    She has actively avoided answering my question which was asked over two weeks ago. All she has done is make some lame excuses.

    flip, your responses and questions are wonderful. The fact that “Emily” refuses to address them means that you are making her uncomfortable. Her refusal to answer real questions betrays her closed mind.

    Keep going, flip.

  568. #568 Emily
    February 2, 2012

    To Flip:

    I do hope you can find some salvation as you pay multiple visits to the Holy Church of Modern Medicine in the coming years. But I wouldn’t hold my breath.

    There the Priests, wearing surgical masks instead of rosaries,& brandishing their hypodermic needles instead of incense, will gladly annoint you with their wonder water (read drugs), until, after you have developed life-threatening co-morbidities & finally woken up to the fact that this was all one long nightmare of SBM (seriously bad medicine), you will scream out in sickness & frustration, as you drown in drugs:

    ‘what was the name of that woman back in 2012 on Scienceblogs,the one I abused & belittled & called Emily of Contradictions, & told her she was f…… obtuse. Maybe her NH she talked about then can help me, for I must admit she did speak common sense, & her prediction was right, this path I’m on has led me to a hard landing. My health is a monumental ( sorry for the pun) mess & my doctor has said there is nothing more he can do for me…but next year there could be hope with a new drug…..Oh God I’ve heard that so many times before…I’m starting to see & understand what she was saying….. Emily, Emily, wherefore art though..help!’

    I have already stated that I sincerely wish you all the best. And I mean it, Flip.

  569. #569 flip
    February 2, 2012

    @563 Chris

    Thanks for the encouragement, but I lost enthusiasm a couple of days ago. Plus it’s getting harder to keep up as new blog posts arrive and I’m trying to keep up with all the reading.

    Besides, I get the sense Emily’s enthusiasm has waned too. ;)

  570. #570 flip
    February 2, 2012

    I would like to add to my above comment that I have a high school level of science (more chemistry than biology) education, a little high school psych, and no understanding of half the stuff I read here. Terminology and other medical concepts go over my head; doesn’t prevent me from spotting the flaws in an argument though. My point in saying this is to say thanks to you Chris and the others because I’m surprised I’ve said anything intelligent at all. :)

  571. #571 OccamsLaser
    February 2, 2012

    Emily –

    The boy was encouraged to eat “to keep his strength up” despite obvious anorexia.

    I take it that you are saying it is counter to the restoration of health to put food into a sick child who is not hungry. What principle of NH does feeding a sick person who is not hungry violate? Should we listen to what our body is telling us when we have no appetite, or should we ignore that signal and do the opposite?

  572. #572 herr doktor bimler
    February 2, 2012

    I am not a psychologist, but I am guessing that when Emily refers so often to the “Holy Church of Modern Medicine” and then prays that Flip will “find salvation”, then there’s an element of projection going on.

    [Checks qualifications]

    No, wait, I *am* a psychologist.

  573. #573 Calli Arcale
    February 2, 2012

    Ah, I see I have gotten a response out of you at last, Emily. Got under your skin, did I? Good.

    “It’s true — most fevers that the average person will encounter are self-limiting. They’ll resolve no matter what you do or don’t do”.

    Nonsense & you DON’T know it, & therin lies the problem. Read Fever: Metabolic Asset or Liability? Organ Metabolism & Nutrition; 1994 & learn something about fevers.

    Try feeding, exercising & drugging anyone with a fever & see if that spontaneously resolves, like you assert. Good luck.

    You casually assert that you are right and I am wrong, tossing off a partial citation but not elaborating. You go on personal experience, you’ve said so many times. Well, my personal experience is that my own fevers last pretty much the same duration no matter what I do. In medicine, there is the old adage that a cold will last a week if you don’t treat it, but will be gone in just 7 days if you do, so this is not an observation unique to myself.

    I don’t exercise when I have a fever. I don’t make my kids exercise when they have fevers. We eat as normally as we feel able. Sometimes we use antipyretics; sometimes we don’t. Depends on how icky we feel. Doesn’t seem to have much affect on the overall outcome, and that’s why I say what I say. Now, why do you say what you say? Have you ever tried *not* fasting during a fever?

    Exception: bacterial infections. I’ve never had those resolve spontaneously. Oddly, every fever I’ve had in relation to a bacterial infection has lasted until the day after I started a course of antibiotics, no matter how long I waited to get the diagnosis and prescription….

    It’s odd that you say I should try feeding, exercising, and drugging anyone with a fever and see if the fever goes away. Of course it does. The body doesn’t become stupid just because you’ve decided to try and treat some symptoms or have a sandwich. And what else would happen? Do you realize how foolish that statement sounds? The implication of your statement is an expectation that a fever cannot resolve with food, exercise, and medication, which would imply that everybody on Earth who ever had a fever has one right now if they haven’t tried fasting yet. And that’s obviously absurd, so I don’t think you meant that.

    I refuse to keep any records, now you assert, again without any evidence. Why do you medical sycophants have to fabricate things, is it because you have so little knowledge of natural principles in health, you then attack the player not the ball

    You said you don’t keep records on the thousands of people you say you have observed. If I have this wrong, it is because of what you have said. Though given how ridiculous your statement about fever was, maybe you’re just an insanely bad communicator.

    Miss ignoramus attacking the player again. I never blame the sufferer.I blame the causes of the disease. If the causes are adopted by a person, like smoking, drinking, jumping off a building, then, it’s called responsibility.

    I will quote you directly: “The drugs & the dangerous & foolhardy interference killed him.” How is that not blaming them for giving him medicine???

    You contradict yourself, Emily, you abuse words, you hide behind semantics, you cite papers that do not support your contentions, and you clearly have absolutely zero interest in anything which goes against your prejudices. I shall now quote my very favorite television program (which I believe our esteemed Orac rather likes as well):

    “Allow me to congratulate you. You have the most totally closed mind I have ever encountered.”

  574. #574 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 2, 2012

    There the Priests, wearing surgical masks instead of rosaries,& brandishing their hypodermic needles instead of incense, will gladly annoint you with their wonder water (read drugs), until, after you have developed life-threatening co-morbidities & finally woken up to the fact that this was all one long nightmare of SBM (seriously bad medicine), you will scream out in sickness & frustration, as you drown in drugs

    Anyone else seriously getting flashbacks to Rorschach’s paranoid soliloquy in the first chapter of “Watchmen”?

    . . . This city is afraid of me. I have seen its true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout “Save us!”… and I’ll look down and whisper “No.”

    Seriously, emily, your delusions of grandeur were amusing, but now they’re getting creepy.

  575. #575 Lawrence
    February 2, 2012

    Why do I get the sense that Emily might end up as one of those people that ends up dying of some very treatable disease or infection…..because she tries to treat it with “fasting.”

  576. #576 flip
    February 2, 2012

    @562 Emily

    This is all repetitive… you really do only have a handful of arguments don’t you? None of which back you up, none of which come with data, all of which come with your usual contradictions.

    But no, your attitude is, if a “real” doctor is involved, dishing out “real medicine” then too bad. We’ll all shut up, say bad luck, better luck next time & we’ll all go to the Holy Church of Modern Medicine next Sunday.

    Once again you ignore the fact that SBM doctors who *do* screw up get called out on it, and that most CAM proponents get little to no oversight and/or punishment. Or did you forget what the original post was all about? (Granted, Wakefield was a straight-up fraud, but he started off as an SBM doctor)

    No wonder there are literally millions of people visiting AltMed practitioners, flocking to alternative websites & questioning the medical love-in with Big Pharma. And it will increase,as the truth gradually comes out.

    Haha, yes, might = right. You really don’t think any of these comments through, do you? Anyone with a high school education of science, biology, psych or even philosophy would see through your logical fallacies.

    @566 Emily

    Repeating statements about religion does not PROVE YOUR HYPOTHESIS TO WORK. It only makes you look like a conspiracy nutter.

    And thank you, I’m not currently on any medications, but I’m glad to say that when I was desperate for air due to asthma that they found one that worked: note that no cleaning of rooms, no change of diet, no additional exercise, no fasting (eating is hard when you can’t breath), or any other ‘natural’ method prevented me from having asthma. So yes, thanks to SBM I can breathe. And no thanks to ‘natural hygiene’ principles which didn’t work at all.

    Interesting, I also didn’t have any side effects from the meds, unless you count being able to stop having a sore back from constant coughing, or being able to walk two paces without feeling like I was going to keel over from lack of oxygen. No long-term side effects and no short term ones either. (And no, no additional meds to get rid of side effects either. Just one inhaler)

    I have abused and belittled your ideas because they are illogical and without evidence: if I’ve offended you then obviously you need a thicker skin than I. Clearly you can’t take what you dish out.

    The rest of your comment is a complete showcase of your inability to read or understand any of mine, where I clearly state (and I’ve pointed this out before) that I’m not enamoured with either doctors or medicine, having been party to a lot of to-ing and fro-ing between a whole bunch of them. However, like others here would state: we go with what has shown to work and what has the least amount of risk. What worked was meds, not twiddling my thumbs hoping it would get better. And I *did* twiddle my thumbs for well over a year before obtaining a med that worked. And I have *done* and am *doing* most of those Natural Hygiene principles – why don’t they work for me? Is it just I’m not trying hard enough?

    I have already stated that I sincerely wish you all the best. And I mean it, Flip.

    Yeah, I really don’t care about your ‘kind thoughts’. Your best wishes come in the same breath as expecting me to die at the hands of a logical fallacy. I’m perfectly happy following research and logic and avoiding your “common sense” which would have had me suffer and die from lack of oxygen, all the while insisting that I’m just not trying hard enough. You still can’t provide any info as to what mental illness “repairs”.

    I again note you’ve completely avoided giving me any advice on *how* to treat my illness, and yet you again continue to state that I should give up SBM without any specific reason why *your* treatment would be better or how it works. You’re full of it and I will not be kind to anyone who ‘wishes me well’ by suggesting I just (well, you never really say what I should do) cross my fingers and hope I don’t one day wake up and kill myself. And that’s every day for 20 years mind you.

    Fuck, that’s how close-minded you are. You’re so damn ignorant or misinformed that you would actually sit there and wait for someone to kill themselves – hey, preventing that would be ‘interfering’ with the natural order and ‘reparatory’ bodily functions wouldn’t it? And well, I’m just “living wrong” – even though I already practice most of the Natural Hygiene principles. I guess I just better fast… oops, no I stated I inadvertantly do that too. Somehow I’m still not better though.

    And I’m supposed to be nice. There is no emoticon that fully captures the depth and width of my disgust.

    But before we get really mad… Here’s a really big and obvious hint: I’D CHANGE MY MIND IF YOU COULD FIND SOME PEER-REVIEWED EVIDENCE THAT SHOWED NATURAL HEALTH PRINCIPLES HAD EFFICACY AND A LOW RISK. The only thing I “bow down to” is the idea that my position is tentative. Even for SBM. You show it works, I’ll leave you alone and even agree with you and defend it myself. But you can’t, which is why you’re full of it. I don’t care what you believe: I can’t see you or your life or have your experiences. I care about what can be proven whether we’re in the same room or not.

    Now instead of congratulating yourself for being so damn “enlightened”, go back, reread comment #564, and answer the questions put to you. If you can’t answer them, with peer-reviewed evidence where relevant, then you can’t enlighten the rest of us. If you can, then stop wasting everyone’s time and just get on with it. Dancing around is making you look like a liar and a fool.

    And if you don’t like being called either of those things well then, too bad. I will only respond to any further comments by directing you back to comment #564. I’ve lost all patience for your ignorant backwards thinking.

    Put up or shut up.

  577. #577 flip
    February 2, 2012

    @569 Occamslaser

    It’s clear from previous comments – or at least to me it’s clear – that Emily thinks eating is moving away from the “natural order” of human lifestyle and that it should only be done occasionally. One wonders if she’s ever seen a starving child. (Ah, but ‘starve’ and ‘fast’ are different… somehow)

    What principle of NH does feeding a sick person who is not hungry violate?

    Obviously adding food into the mix when someone is sick is interfering with the body’s process of dealing with the illness. By interfering, you make it worse. Or something…

    @571 Calli Arcale

    You said you don’t keep records on the thousands of people you say you have observed. If I have this wrong, it is because of what you have said.

    No, you’re right. She just doesn’t remember what she said, or if she does, tries as much as possible to squirm out of it claiming we’re the ones misunderstanding her. She *is* a bad communicator. She can’t define her terms, she can’t keep her arguments straight, and she can’t or won’t answer simple yes/no questions with an actual yes/no.

    “Allow me to congratulate you. You have the most totally closed mind I have ever encountered.”

    I totally agree. (And what is that from? Never heard the line before)

  578. #578 Narad
    February 2, 2012

    It’s clear from previous comments – or at least to me it’s clear – that Emily thinks eating is moving away from the “natural order” of human lifestyle and that it should only be done occasionally.

    I think not. Diet is central to Natural Hygiene, and it is to be brought into conformance with the Ancient State, the nature of which, oddly enough, is the main matter of dispute. It also thus attempts to embrace a huge swath of food faddism. With “nerve energy.”

  579. #579 Matthew Cline
    February 2, 2012

    @Emily:

    To repeat my question:

    When I person suffering from tetanus has uncontrollable muscle contractions, are those muscles contractions a reparatory symptom, or are they something other than a symptom?

  580. #580 alison
    February 2, 2012

    And just in case Emily needs a bit of a reminder of where ‘fasting’ (aka starving) can get us: this link (http://www.theaucklander.co.nz/news/starved-dog-spca-shocked/1257245/) is to a story from yesterday’s NZ Herald & includes an image of a dog starved near unto death by some disgusting creature (I refuse to call someone so callous & inhumane ‘human’). It is not exactly a picture of bounding health. No doubt it & its ‘owner’ were doing something wrong. (As a dog person myself I found this story profoundly upsetting & disturbing.)

  581. #581 alison
    February 2, 2012

    “Allow me to congratulate you. You have the most totally closed mind I have ever encountered.”

    Like flip, I don’t know where this comes from? (I love it, by the way!) It sounds like something that the current Sherlock Holmes (Benedict Cumberbatch) would say :-)

  582. #582 squirrelelite
    February 2, 2012

    It is Dr Who. From 1963, according to my Google source.

  583. #583 Emily
    February 3, 2012

    re Flip @ 575

    “What principle of NH does feeding a sick person who is not hungry violate?
    Obviously adding food into the mix when someone is sick is interfering with the body’s process of dealing with the illness. By interfering, you make it worse. ”

    Exactly.

    I realise we are becoming increasingly quarantined from nature, but I contend we have these instincts for a reason.

  584. #584 Narad
    February 3, 2012

    I realise we are becoming increasingly quarantined from nature, but I contend we have these instincts for a reason.

    That’s a pretty vague teleology.

  585. #585 adelady
    February 3, 2012

    “adding food into the mix when someone is sick is interfering with the body’s process of dealing with the illness,,,”

    Well. I’m shocked. Shocked!! I tell you.

    A proponent of Victorian style home nursing who doesn’t have the skills or understand the value of beef broth, chicken soup or any other “invalid cookery”.

    And who has apparently never uttered the words – ‘You must keep up your strength’.

  586. #586 OccamsLaser
    February 3, 2012

    Emily –

    I asked you

    What principle of NH does feeding a sick person who is not hungry violate?

    You replied,

    I realise we are becoming increasingly quarantined from nature, but I contend we have these instincts for a reason.

    By “these instincts”, you are referring in this instance to the loss of appetite that may occur when someone is sick, is that correct? And you are saying that we have that loss of appetite for a reason, and it is natural, and if we ignore that signal and do the opposite of what it is telling us, we are not contributing to health, but rather working against the body’s attempt to restore health. Is that an accurate statement of your (and NH’s) principles?

  587. #587 Chris
    February 3, 2012

    I just want to know what Emily knows about the three laws of thermodynamics. I know she is steadfastly refusing to answer my original question.

  588. #588 Denice Walter
    February 3, 2012

    @ flip:

    Let me be the first to say it: The defence rests. Case closed! (applause)

    Read more about depression, possibly text materials for psychologists and therapists. There’s a guy named Leahy. Find out how to monitor the intensity of your symptoms. Communication with the like-minded is a step in the right direction. It’s not easy to do this on your own. Art may provide a rock-strewn, thorny pathway through the garden of delights but it certainly beats slogging through the muck.

  589. #589 alison
    February 3, 2012

    She’s steadfastly ignoring a lot of questions, Chris :-) I’m still waiting to hear her take on evolution…

  590. #590 Calli Arcale
    February 3, 2012

    squirrelite:

    It is Dr Who. From 1963, according to my Google source.

    Yep! Though the actual quote is about ten years younger (very long-running series; it’s still on today). It’s from the Third Doctor serial “Frontier in Space”.

  591. #591 lilady
    February 3, 2012

    @ squirrelite & Calli Arcale: Are direct quotes from movie scripts acceptable here as comments? How about bastardized quotes?:

    “Frankly my dear Emily, I don’t give a damn”.

  592. #592 squirrelelite
    February 3, 2012

    Go ahead, lilady!

    I enjoy all your comments.

    I had an inspiration for one myself last night but it will take some extended editing.

    I’ll try to make myself do it tonight.

    Remember, good satire leads to laughter and you know the medical importance of that.

  593. #593 lilady
    February 3, 2012

    “Lawdy, Miss Scarlett, I don’t know nothin’ ’bout birthin’ babies…or anything else!” – Emily

  594. #594 Emily
    February 3, 2012

    584 WilliamOccamslaser

    “I asked you

    What principle of NH does feeding a sick person who is not hungry violate?
    You replied,

    ‘I realise we are becoming increasingly quarantined from nature, but I contend we have these instincts for a reason’.

    By “these instincts”, you are referring in this instance to the loss of appetite that may occur when someone is sick, is that correct? And you are saying that we have that loss of appetite for a reason, and it is natural, and if we ignore that signal and do the opposite of what it is telling us, we are not contributing to health, but rather working against the body’s attempt to restore health. Is that an accurate statement of your (and NH’s) principles?”

    There’s not much hope for us if they,(ie, my statement & your explanation), are incorrect.

    Maybe if wer’e wrong ( & nature’s wrong) we will see the birds sing all night, the sun go for a gallop around the earth & we’ll be able to sneak a sunrise past a rooster!

  595. #595 Emily
    February 3, 2012

    re Chris @ 585:

    “The four laws of thermodynamics are:

    Zeroth law of thermodynamics: If two systems are in thermal equilibrium with a third system, they must be in thermal equilibrium with each other. This law helps define the notion of temperature.

    First law of thermodynamics: Heat is a form of energy. Because energy is conserved, the internal energy of a system changes as heat flows in or out of it. Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the first kind are impossible.

    Second law of thermodynamics: The entropy of any closed system not in thermal equilibrium almost always increases. Closed systems spontaneously evolve towards thermal equilibrium — the state of maximum entropy of the system — in a process known as “thermalization”. Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the second kind are impossible.

    Third law of thermodynamics: The entropy of a system approaches a constant value as the temperature approaches zero. The entropy of a system at absolute zero is typically zero, and in all cases is determined only by the number of different ground states it has”.

    Now what would you like me to do with them Chris, repeal them?

  596. #596 Emily
    February 3, 2012

    Re 571 Calli

    “It’s odd that you say I should try feeding, exercising, and drugging anyone with a fever and see if the fever goes away. Of course it does”

    Just don’t ty it on my recommendation.

    “Exception: bacterial infections. I’ve never had those resolve spontaneously. Oddly, every fever I’ve had in relation to a bacterial infection has lasted until the day after I started a course of antibiotics, no matter how long I waited to get the diagnosis and prescription….”

    Are you saying that bacterial infections need to be treated medically?

  597. #597 Emily
    February 3, 2012

    Chris:

    I have now posted 2 replies to your Q on the laws of thermodynamics, & both have not come through.

    So maybe the moderator is out of energy.

    Be that as it may, what would like me to do with these laws- repeal them?

  598. #598 OccamsLaser
    February 3, 2012

    Emily –

    I asked you

    What principle of NH does feeding a sick person who is not hungry violate?

    You replied,

    I realise we are becoming increasingly quarantined from nature, but I contend we have these instincts for a reason.

    By “these instincts”, you are referring in this instance to the loss of appetite that may occur when someone is sick, is that correct? And you are saying that we have that loss of appetite for a reason, and it is natural, and if we ignore that signal and do the opposite of what it is telling us, we are not contributing to health, but rather working against the body’s attempt to restore health. Is that an accurate statement of your (and NH’s) principles?

    There’s not much hope for us if they,(ie, my statement & your explanation), are incorrect.
    Maybe if wer’e wrong ( & nature’s wrong) we will see the birds sing all night, the sun go for a gallop around the earth & we’ll be able to sneak a sunrise past a rooster!

    So according to the core principles of NH, one of the worst things we can do in an attempt to restore and maintain health is to ignore nature and the body’s own obvious appetite signals. As you say, “there’s not much hope for us” if we take it upon ourselves to override what the body is so clearly telling us, and instead do the opposite.

    So it goes directly against the core principles of Natural Hygiene to eat when we are not hungry, especially in an attempt to restore health.

    And, of course, it goes directly against that same core principle of Natural Hygiene to not eat when we are hungry, especially in an attempt to restore health. Or, to use another term for that behavior:

    To fast.

  599. #599 Chris
    February 3, 2012

    Emily:

    Now what would you like me to do with them Chris, repeal them?

    No. I want you to explain what they mean. All you have done is a cut and paste, now you must tell us what they mean.

  600. #600 Chris
    February 3, 2012

    And what is worse, you cut and pasted them from wikipedia.

  601. #601 Composer99
    February 3, 2012

    So, for the tl;dr reader who’s coming back to this thread after several weeks away, can I fill out my denialist bingo card (the alt-med edition) with Emily’s posts?

  602. #602 Calli Arcale
    February 3, 2012

    Emily:

    Are you saying that bacterial infections need to be treated medically?

    Yes I am. I’m sure you will say they do not need to be treated medically, and the correct response to my kidney infection earlier this week would have been to fast, since that seems to be your answer to everything. Perhaps a forty-day fast? I wonder what that would have done, given that fasting gives the kidneys more stuff to deal with (the byproducts of breaking down body tissue to supply energy). During a kidney infection is really not a great time to throw extra trouble their way. Meanwhile, I’m on amoxicillin. Been on it since Tuesday, and I feel great. In fact, on Wednesday, I woke up with more energy than I’d had in a week. I’ll take the medicine long enough to be reasonably sure of having killed all of the stuff in my urinary tract. I don’t mess around with bacteria. You let them get established and they just get harder to evict.

    But tell me — what *would* you do, if your patient developed symptoms of a urinary tract infection? For argument, let’s say this particular infection’s symptoms include fever. (Not all do.) What would be your course of action? For a medical professional, this is an easy case; what is it for you?

  603. #603 lilady
    February 3, 2012

    @ Composer99: I filled up a dozen or more bingo cards…we need a larger bingo card with this persistent troll.

  604. #604 flip
    February 4, 2012

    @576 Narad

    Yeah, but how does fasting fit into that? It seems to me that in some form, eating (most likely eating processed food) is bad in the realm of Natural Hygiene.

    But yes, overall I agree.

    @580 Squirrelelite

    Typical. I only got into the new series of Doctor Who and haven’t seen any of the old ones. Just another excuse to find and watch! :)

    @586 Denice

    Thanks. I agree with all of your points and will look into those materials – I’ve not heard of Leahy before.

    @599 Composer99

    Yes, pretty much.

    @600 Calli Arcale

    Sorry to hear you’re sick. Feel better soon!

  605. #605 flip
    February 4, 2012

    @581 Emily

    That’s not my question. I quoted OccamsLaser, who asked the question. Yet another example of your inability to read.

    Go back, reread comment #564, and answer the questions put to you. Put up or shut up.

    And maybe, for the fun, I’ll add one more question: did early humans (ie. pre-agriculture) ever die from illness? … Actually, another one because I forgot it: what are the risks and contraindications for Natural Health principles?

    @592 Emily

    There’s not much hope for us if they,(ie, my statement & your explanation), are incorrect.

    That’s the longest “yes” I’ve ever seen to a yes/no question. Go back, reread comment #564, and answer the questions put to you. Put up or shut up.

    But I see you’re not replying to my tough questions anyway… Ah, it’s nice to be ignored! ;)
    Whoohoo, I’m on an ignored list!

    Seriously though, it must be tough to face up to someone who completely contradicts your worldview. I guess all those post-natally depressed mothers are not in your knitting circle. Must be difficult for you to comprehend a world that doesn’t match up with your own experiences. Oh, the cognitive dissonance!

  606. #606 Narad
    February 4, 2012

    @576 Narad

    Yeah, but how does fasting fit into that? It seems to me that in some form, eating (most likely eating processed food) is bad in the realm of Natural Hygiene.

    “Nerve energy” arises spontaneously as a result of rest. Fasting is rest. There’s not really anything more here; Emily hasn’t even gotten around to explaining how Shelton lost his regenerative powers. I don’t think I’ve gotten an answer to the explicit question whether there is some critical density of nerve energy or what is supposed to be going on.

  607. #607 Emily
    February 4, 2012

    re 600 Calli Arcale,

    But you haven’t answered why bacterial infections need anti-biotics, yet viruses don’t ( I know a/b’s are ineffective against intra-cellular obligates).

    What happens with un-blasted bacterial infections, prey tell?

  608. #608 Emily
    February 4, 2012

    re 596 WilliamOccumsLaser:

    Excellent understanding Occum. Now we heading in the right direction.

    Could you, & I know this might be difficult but, it would really be appreciated, if by the kindness of your own heart, from your compassionate essence,if at all possible, could you please offer Flip some private coaching. I will even fund it.

  609. #609 Lawrence
    February 4, 2012

    @Emily – please give us the standard NH treatment for Rabies….

  610. #610 https://me.yahoo.com/a/S2naLLY5r5SMywmi4.ZnScUe7ShQL70l#487b7
    February 4, 2012

    Back in post 532, Emily said that her children caught measles after a lengthy airline trip overseas. I just have to wonder, could they have visited an area where measles are endemic? Wouldn’t that argue that they were exposed to, I don’t know, germs?
    Since she denies the existence of germs, I guess they became Ill because their hygienic needs were not properly attended to.
    So Emily, which one is it? Germs, or you neglected their health?

  611. #611 lilady
    February 4, 2012

    Wherever “overseas” means to Emily…her (3? or 4?) unimmunized kids, were exposed to the virus “overseas” and definitely infected *vulnerable people aboard the flights.

    * “hygienist”/germ promoter is so absolutely clueless that she doesn’t give a rat’s posterior, that young infants and immune-suppressed/immune compromised people, are vulnerable.

  612. #612 OccamsLaser
    February 4, 2012

    Emily –

    I wrote,

    And, of course, it goes directly against that same core principle of Natural Hygiene to not eat when we are hungry, especially in an attempt to restore health. Or, to use another term for that behavior:

    To fast.

    You replied,

    Excellent understanding Occum. Now we [are] heading in the right direction.

    So therefore, you agree that it goes directly against a core principle of Natural Hygiene to fast (to not eat even though we are hungry), especially in an attempt to restore health. Fasting is directly counter to one of the core principles of Natural Hygiene. That is, per the principle you have now clearly and repeatedly agreed with, just as that unfortunate boy should not have been given food when his body was not sending a signal for it, one shouldn’t deprive the body of food when ones body is sending a signal to eat.

    Fasting represents the exact opposite of the central principle of Natural Hygiene, as you have explained it, and therefore fasting should never be undertaken by a proponent or adherent of Natural Hygiene. It is as unnatural an act as can be conceived of, and thus can only serve to diminish health, not restore it.

  613. #613 Narad
    February 4, 2012

    But you haven’t answered why bacterial infections need anti-biotics, yet viruses don’t

    Oh, wow, an attempted pleomorphism gotcha. Somebody get out the Rife microscope.

    ( I know a/b’s are ineffective against intra-cellular obligates).

    Huh? Doxycycline isn’t effective against Rocky Mountain spotted fever all of a sudden?

    What happens with un-blasted bacterial infections, prey tell?

    This has got to be the worst koan I’ve ever heard.

  614. #614 flip
    February 4, 2012

    @606 Emily

    Excellent understanding Occum. Now we heading in the right direction. Could you, & I know this might be difficult but, it would really be appreciated, if by the kindness of your own heart, from your compassionate essence,if at all possible, could you please offer Flip some private coaching. I will even fund it.

    You’re an idiot. I understood perfectly what he was saying, but you missed a salient point: he was trying to understand your position. He’s not agreeing with it. More to the point, he’s showing how Natural Hygiene contradicts itself; see comment #610. (I’ll fund you a trip to an English reading comprehension class)

    Furthermore, I can understand a concept, but that doesn’t mean I understand *how* it works or whether there is any efficacy or low risk.

    And why should another person elucidate *your* argument *for you*? Is it because you can’t actually describe anything in detail?

    Reread comment #564 on the Wakefield thread, and answer the questions put to you. Put up or shut up.

  615. #615 Emily
    February 4, 2012

    re 608:

    “Back in post 532, Emily said that her children caught measles after a lengthy airline trip overseas. I just have to wonder, could they have visited an area where measles are endemic? Wouldn’t that argue that they were exposed to, I don’t know, germs?
    Since she denies the existence of germs, I guess they became Ill because their hygienic needs were not properly attended to.
    So Emily, which one is it? Germs, or you neglected their health?”

    I have never said I don’t believe in micro-organisms. Indeed my body ( & yours ) is one cell of ours for every ten micro-organisms. We are not who we think we are.

    Why aren’t we sick all the time? Germs are ubiquitous- around us, within us & on us. In our digestive tract alone we have about 3 lbs of bacteria, mainly good, some bad.

    No, they are out there, in there, everywhere.

    But they are not THE cause of disease. They are associated with disease, & they can act opportunistically in favourable conditions (for them). But you will never, ever convince me that they are the enemy & the sole cause of disease.

  616. #616 Emily
    February 4, 2012

    re 610 Occumslaser:

    This is good stuff, Occum, & I appreciate your feedback & understanding.

    There are 2 types of fast.

    One is conducted when the person has an acute illness- influenza, measles, pertussis, cholera, typhoid, acute tonsillitis, acute pneumonia etc, you get the drift.

    Here the person is obviously quite sick- often a fever, no appetite, no energy, no libido, no humour. Easy: go a couple of days without eating ANYTHING, not even a slice of fruit.In 24-48 hours the patient is comfortable, out of pain & on the mend!

    Caveat: depending on the severity of the condition, some small amounts of fruit or vegetable or soups are OK.

    Rest is the dominant requirement. And when you fast you rest everything, your digestive system, your N/S & your M/S system.

    The second type of fast is that which you are referring to.

    This is where someone has a chronic illness, such as auto-immune disease, diabetes, ulcers, intractable asthma, migraines, kidney stones etc etc.

    This fast is best initiated in people who complain of eating despite not being hungry. Thus they have lost their appetite for food, but have continued eating, sometimes for years, under the mistaken notion that they “have to keep their strength up”.

    On occasions, a patient in this latter category is fasted, with an appetite, & I agree that this appears to contradict the NH philosophy.

    So what else can I say, Occum, in this case you are absolutely correct.

  617. #617 Emily
    February 4, 2012

    re 609 l’lady:

    “Wherever “overseas” means to Emily…her (3? or 4?) unimmunized kids, were exposed to the virus “overseas” and definitely infected *vulnerable people aboard the flights.

    * “hygienist”/germ promoter is so absolutely clueless that she doesn’t give a rat’s posterior, that young infants and immune-suppressed/immune compromised people, are vulnerable”.

    Are you saying that people who are vaccinated won’t get the disease against which they were vaccinated?

    Plenty get it, it’s a lottery. Whether you are vaccinated or unvaccinated, there is no protection except good health & good, rational management.

    I’m surprised you didn’t call my children “disease vectors” this time, or use the words moronic, conspiracist tea bagger, canary party, “neglect & abuse”….

    You softening a little?

    Maybe you have been infected by an outbreak of common sense!!

  618. #618 Narad
    February 4, 2012

    Are you saying that people who are vaccinated won’t get the disease against which they were vaccinated?

    Plenty get it, it’s a lottery. Whether you are vaccinated or unvaccinated, there is no protection except good health & good, rational management.

    The Fail is strong with this one.

  619. #619 Chris
    February 4, 2012

    Emily:Plenty get it, it’s a lottery. Whether you are vaccinated or unvaccinated, there is no protection except good health & good, rational management.

    Then kindly explain what happened that only 10% of children got measles in 1970 than in 1960 in the USA?

  620. #620 W. Kevin Vicklund
    February 4, 2012

    Plenty get it, it’s a lottery. Whether you are vaccinated or unvaccinated, there is no protection except good health & good, rational management.

    So, since your kids got it, we must assume* that you did not keep them in good health and under good, rational management.

    Unless good health and rational management aren’t any protection?

    *ad arguendo

  621. #621 Matthew Cline
    February 4, 2012

    @Emily:

    Plenty get it, it’s a lottery. Whether you are vaccinated or unvaccinated, there is no protection except good health & good, rational management.

    Those who get vaccinated against (for example) measles are less likely to catch measles than those who don’t. It’s conceivable that those parents who vaccinate their children are better at raising their children in a healthy manner than those parents who don’t vaccinate, but what are the vaccinating parents doing differently than non vaccinating parents to improve their children’s health?

    To go at it from a different direction: if someone catches a full blown case of the measles (the wild strain), they almost never catch the measles again. This is due to adaptive immunity. The measles vaccine is meant to provoke an adaptive immune response without causing the symptoms of a full blown case (though it isn’t as good at doing so as the wild strain). Is there some principle of NH which says that the measles vaccine can’t do this? Or does NH say that something besides adaptive immunity is the reason that people don’t catch the measles twice?

  622. #622 lilady
    February 4, 2012

    One has to wonder where or how the *hygienist* ever treated anyone with cholera or typhoid. Perhaps when her (3? or 4?) unimmunized children contracted measles…they also brought back cholera and salmonella typhi. You know what they say about avoiding typhoid, don’t you, Emily? Boil it, cook it, peel it or…forget it. So do you fast before or after you become infected with salmonella typhi?

    Okay Emily, what percentage of children who receive the recommended 2-dose measles vaccines, do not have complete protective immunity?

  623. #623 Calli Arcale
    February 4, 2012

    Emily @ 605:

    But you haven’t answered why bacterial infections need anti-biotics, yet viruses don’t ( I know a/b’s are ineffective against intra-cellular obligates).

    Ah, answering my question with a question? ;-) Your question was whether it needed antibiotics, and I said yes. But I will answer your *new* question, of course. I wonder when you will see fit to answer mine.
    Antibiotics do not work on viruses because they target various aspects of cell biology. It may be the cell membrane, it may be nutrient transport mechanisms peculiar to bacteria, it may be the internal machinery of the non-nucleated cell (particularly its reproductive machinery) . . . . There are many targets within the bacterium. But the virus possesses none of these things. Consequently, it cannot be affected by the antibiotic. There are antiviral drugs, but developing them is a big challenge. The biggest problem is that viruses are essentially inert when they are outside of the cell (so there’s no activity to inhibit at that point), and once they’re *in* the cell, they become largely inaccessible. It’s not impossible, but it’s not something that’s going to be discovered by accident as penicillin was.

    What happens with un-blasted bacterial infections, prey tell?

    “Blasted” . . . what a crude word. An untreated bacterial infection may resolve on its own, or it may continue to progress until it causes major tissue damage or even becomes septic, which would be the last step before death. (Some infections can kill without becoming septic, such as pneumonia, by destroying the lungs’ gas exchange capability.) Amildly infected wound may resolve on its own, but even if it does, scarring is likely to be worse due to tissue damage from the bacteria. A small, easily closed wound could be instead a huge, gaping chasm that takes years to regrow enough skin to close it.

    Take my recent infection. It was a urinary tract infection. In the bad old days, people had to deal with these without any real treatment. (Nobody had yet discovered how cranberry or blueberry juice might help, and in any case, that’s more of a preventative than a treatment.) Mine had already progressed to the right kidney. The culture isn’t back yet, but it was most likely E. coli, and not the bad kind; most UTIs are caused by a normal human-strain E. coli that has migrated from the gut (where it is helpful) to the urinary tract (where it is not). If I had left it untreated, I would be risking damage to my kidneys. I was already feeling very weak; I would have become weaker, and eventually would have likely begun losing function in that kidney. If I was lucky, the infection would eventually be overcome by my immune system (it was definitely working on it; the urinalysis detected white blood cells) and the left kidney would go on working fine. But I would have lost my redundancy, and the next infection could kill me. Of course, if I was not lucky, the infection would not stop at the kidney.

    So. I have answered your new questions. Will you answer mine? What would you do, confronted with the symptoms of a urinary tract infection? If it helps, I can provide my exact symptoms: low-grade fever off and on for two days, lethargy for three, mild lower abdominal discomfort for one day (which I’ll point out was about when my period was due — I have regular cycles, and it did arrive the next day), mild irritation during urination for one day, urgency for one day. That was how I presented to the doctor. Physical exam revealed no fever at that time, normal BP and heart rate, tenderness in the lower abdomen and the right flank.

  624. #624 Calli Arcale
    February 5, 2012

    Emily,

    I have posted a reply to you about why antibiotics are helpful against bacteria but not viruses, and giving you the actual symptoms that I presented with on Tuesday. I’m hoping that you will now see your way to answering the question about how you’d handle the symptoms of a UTI.

  625. #625 LW
    February 5, 2012

    I’d be interested to know how many people with cholera survive for a couple of days with nothing at all other than pure water to drink.

  626. #626 Emily