Respectful Insolence

One of the most common retorts that antivaccine activists like to make, usually in the most wounded, self-righteous tone with the most wounded, disgusted expression on their faces that they can manage, is that they are “not antivaccine but rather pro-safe vaccine.” There may be a tiny minority of antivaccinationists who really are “pro-safe vaccine,” but if they exist I have yet to encounter one yet. In any case, what maes an antivaccinationist and antivaccinationist is an unrelenting hostility to and fear of vaccines, coupled with an even more unrelenting refusal to admit that vaccines do any good and ann amazingly slippery avoidance of answering the question of what, exactly, it would take to convince them that vaccines are safe enough for their children. Periodically, I like to provide examples that help illustrate this difference and why the claims of antivaccine activists that they are not, in fact, anti-vaccine are nearly always bogus. So it was that I came across the website Vactruth.com and this gem of a post Excuse Me Waiter – There’s a Fly in My Vaccine Soup!

A more blatant example of the “toxins gambit” with so much idiocy concentrated in one post that it’s a veritable black hole of antivaccine information at least as dense as the last black hole of vaccine misinformation I encountered. Maybe the two of them will consume each other. Rationale people and the children endangered by antivaccine rhetoric should be so lucky.

In any case, it’s hard not to consider how hilarious the name “VacTruth” is in the context of what is actually on the website in general and this post in particular. To get an idea of the “quality” of this article, just check out the first couple of paragraphs:

We can laugh at the waiter’s reply to our complaint about the fly in our soup: “- Never mind, it won’t eat much!” However it is no joke that vaccines may contain residue from insect cells, yeast, mouse brains, tissue from pigs, guinea pigs, rabbits, dogs, calf lymph, hens’ eggs, chick embryos, monkey kidney and testicle cells, retinal cells, aborted human fetal cells and cancer cells!

These are amongst the many substrates present in the huge cultivation soup tanks which are used in vaccine production. The implications may be horrendous.

Apparently, VacTruth’s definition of “horrendous” is different than my definition of “horrendous,” just as an antivaccinationist’s definition of “toxins” is different from a scientific definition of “toxins,” which neglects all consideration of basic pharmacology (i.e., dose-rsponse). What vaccines do do is to prevent childhood diseases at an incredibly low risk. Arguably vaccines have saved more lives than any other medical intervention conceived by the human mind. Yet that doesn’t prevent the author of this post, written by Sandy Lunoe, from laying down huge swaths of napalm-grade flaming stupid. She trots out the old “monkey virus in the vaccines” canard. It’s an old and favorite tactic used to sow fear and doubt about vaccines that sometimes works because it has a grain of truth. But it’s just a grain, a grain that the antivaccine loons who parrot this canard try to make that grain grow into a whole farm full of wheat. It doesn’t work.

Basically, it’s true that the SV40 virus was identified in early polio vaccine in the injected form of the vaccine. In fact, SV40 was completely removed from the seed strains used to grow the vaccine viruses in the early 1960s. In fact, extensive measures were taken to make sure that SV40 was eliminated:

SV40 was completely removed from the seed strains of the vaccine viruses in the early 1960s.The polio vaccine currently used in the U.S. (inactivated polio vaccine, or IPV) is no longer prepared in primary rhesus monkey kidney cells. It is produced in human or African green monkey cell lines that have been extensively tested for contaminants, including SV40.The poliovirus used in IPV is killed with formaldehyde. This procedure also kills viral contaminants, such as SV40. Formaldehyde was also used in the SV40-contaminated vaccine, but in 1961 researchers found that the process killed 99.99% of SV40 and 1 in 10,000 SV40 particles survived (Hilleman, 1998).Today’s testing methods are better. Any live SV40 would be detected by these methods.

Add to that the conflicting evidence regarding whether SV40 even causes cancer in humans or not, and this is a non-issue. Basically, it’s a story of scientists finding a potential problem with vaccines that might compromise their safety and then going to a great deal of trouble to eliminate that problem. It’s also a story from 50 years ago. Vaccine safety and production techniques have advanced considerably since then. The 50 year old story of vaccine contamination says very little about how vaccines are manufactured today or how safe they are today, other than that it demonstrates that scientists are indeed very careful about vaccine safety and, when a potential problem is found with vaccines, they act to correct it. It’s very much unlike the parody that antivaccine activists paint of scientists concerned about nothing but money or ideology. Moreover, since the early 1960s, polio virus stocks have been tested for the presence of SV40, which is not hard to do using modern techniques.

Next up, Lunoe invokes a more recent (and, quite frankly, brain-dead) antivaccine trope, namely the claim that there”s actual–gasp!–DNA in the HPV vaccine. This, too, is a highly brain dead antivaccine gambit as well, one that I had considerable fun deconstructing it a few months ago. To make a long post short, basically a pathologist named Dr. Sin Hang Lee claimed to have found a more sensitive test to detect HPV DNA in Gardasil and to have used this test to find, well, HPV DNA in Gardasi. Even assuming that Dr. Lee did what he claimed, the worst that could be said about the HPV vaccine is that a new, highly sensitive test found something that couldn’t be detected using previously used methodology. Alternatively, Dr. Lee used nested PCR in order to produce a false positive, probably inadvertently.

Next up on the antivaccine hit parade is the dreaded “aborted fetal cells” gambit, in which it is claimed that there is “aborted fetal tissue” or that there are “aborted fetal cells” in vaccines. This is, as I have described many times before, a distortion, an intentional misunderstanding of how cell lines are generated. It is true that some vaccine viral stocks are grown in human cells derived from an aborted fetus. However the cell lines involved were isolated back in the 1960s and passaged (allowed to double) many, many, many, many times since then. Moreover, there are no cells left in the vaccines, even though the vaccine viral stock might have been grown in these cell lines isolated 40 or 50 years ago, but that is not the same thing as there being “fetal cells” in vaccines. Let’s put it this way. Even the Catholic Church has stated that until there are alternatives, Catholics should vaccinate. If even the Catholic Church can reconcile itself to the use of these cells, it’s hard not to view the bleats of antivaccine groups as anything more than pure cynicism.

Lunoe finishes with a bunch of fear-mongering quotes that are so over-the-top that I can’t resist quoting them verbatim, for the edification of my readers:

” – DNA is used from such organisms as animals, animal viruses, fungi, and bacteria. It has been documented that injecting foreign DNA in a human may cause it, or a portion of it, to be incorporated into the recipient’s DNA. The horrendous implications for the unborn defy the imagination.http://healthwyze.org/index.php/vaccine-secrets.html

“- most vaccines are contaminated with a number of known and yet-to-be discovered viruses, bacteria, viral fragments, and DNA/RNA fragments. And, further, our science demonstrates that these contaminants could lead to a number of slowly-developing degenerative diseases, including degenerative diseases of the brain.http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/if-you-are-in-support-of-vaccinations/

“- The risks of residual retinal DNA and stray viral contaminants from the animal tissues getting into flu shots are real. DNA snips are classified as either “infectious” or “oncogenic” (tumour causing) by researchers who worry that the stray DNA is being incorporated into the recipient’s DNA …” http://www.newswithviews.com/Tenpenny/sherri123.htm

Interview with Dr. Suzanne Humphries. (Regarding contaminants from 33 minutes):
“- DNA particles from disease matter can get into our DNA and alter us and in my opinion these vaccines are turning us into genetically modified organisms.” http://naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=BAE7F6323813CFAFB8338173FB11D429

Rather dubious sources, don’t you think? Rabid antivaccine loon Sherri Tenpenny and Dr. Suzanne Humphries (one of whose videos I had some fun with a while back). Particularly amusing is the claim by Tenpenny that the “vaccine, no doubt, contains snips of insect DNA. No doubt she’s trying to conjure up images of The Fly. Certainly Lunoe is. She even makes it almost explicit in the title of her post and the parroting of Tenpenny’s claims about “insect fragments” bypassing the “body’s intricate defense mechanism.”

It’s definitely a hunka hunka burnin’ stupid.

As this post by Sandy Lunoe demonstrates once again, these sorts of arguments are purely antivaccine, not “pro-safe vaccine. The fear mongering is all designed to sow fear and doubt about vaccines. Whatever notion people like Lunoe come up with, it’s always first and foremost all about the vaccines, which are portrayed as the root of all evil. Always.

If that isn’t antivaccine, I don’t know what is.

Comments

  1. #1 Pareidolius
    January 31, 2012

    “huge cultivation soup tanks”? Really? This sounds quite a bit like Lord Draconis’ mysterious vats down on level 7. No soup for you lady . . . but plenty of nuts.

  2. #2 MikeMa
    January 31, 2012

    While clearly insane to the informed skeptic, that is some scary shit to new parents with no other frame of reference. These lies do a disservice to pediatricians who bear the brunt of addressing it and to the children who’s parents set them up to suffer from diseases so easily prevented by vaccines.

    Case in point: Whooping cough outbreak reported in 2 high schools outside of Philly. Free vaccines on offer now. I hope no one dies.

  3. #3 Skeptic Hamster
    January 31, 2012

    Saying that vaccines contain fetal cells is surely like saying that potato chips contain soil cells, wine contains barrel cells and that feet contain shoe cells.

  4. #4 herr doktor bimler
    January 31, 2012

    It has been documented that injecting foreign DNA in a human may cause it, or a portion of it, to be incorporated into the recipient’s DNA.

    I was bitten by a mosquito once, so where are my wings?

  5. #5 anarchic teapot
    January 31, 2012

    Good point about their being basically more irresponsible and antiscience than the Catholic church.

  6. #6 reasonablehank
    January 31, 2012

    Meryl Dorey has added another trope to the “I’m not anti-vaccine” list:

    “Being anti-vaccine means telling others they can not or should not vaccinate”.

    That’s it. That is her new definition of “anti”.

    http://nocompulsoryvaccination.com/2012/01/28/truth-in-the-media-is-it-an-oxymoron/#comment-3400

    Meryl Dorey has a special dictionary. Only Meryl has access to it.

  7. #7 El Jay
    January 31, 2012

    Comic book science at its finest.

  8. #8 LW
    January 31, 2012

    herr doktor bimler @4 : “I was bitten by a mosquito once, so where are my wings?”

    There there, they’re there. It’s just that they’re, you know, mosquito wings. They’re only a few millimeters long, and you keep knocking them off when you put on a shirt.

  9. #9 Cynical Pediatrician
    January 31, 2012

    “However it is no joke that vaccines may contain residue from insect cells, yeast, mouse brains, tissue from pigs, guinea pigs, rabbits, dogs, calf lymph, hens’ eggs, chick embryos, monkey kidney and testicle cells, retinal cells, aborted human fetal cells and cancer cells!”

    Presumably she doesn’t eat hot dogs or Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups either.

  10. #10 OracIsAQuack
    January 31, 2012

    “That’s it. That is her new definition of “anti””

    Yes, that’s the actual English definition of what anti is. Anti, as a prefix, denotes opposition or contradiction to the word following the prefix. So, in this case, someone who is anti-vaccine is completely opposed to vaccinations.

    This is completely different than your false skeptics’ arbitrary definition, which includes anyone you don’t agree with.

  11. #11 Dangerous Bacon
    January 31, 2012

    Great photo here of Dr. Paul Offit “reasoning” with an antivaccinationist:

  12. #12 Science Mom
    January 31, 2012

    Presumably she doesn’t eat hot dogs or Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups either.

    And Fig Newtons! OMFG, wasp proteins there.

  13. #13 Orac
    January 31, 2012

    “Anti” is as “anti” does. Never acknowledging that any vaccine is safe, never proposing actual concrete solutions to make vaccines safe, and constantly vastly exaggerating the risks and downplaying the benefits of vaccines, all the while exhibiting an unrelenting hostility to vaccines and spreading misinformation designed to frighten parents about vaccines, are not consistent with a “pro-safe vaccine” stance. They are, however, quite consistent with an antivaccine stance. The only reason antivaccine activists claim to be “pro-safe vaccine” is because they know that their hostility to vaccines is (quite correctly, in my view) looked upon as crankery not based in science or evidence.

  14. #14 Denice Walter
    January 31, 2012

    A few days ago, I heard nonsense, courtesy of Gary Null, that seemed as if he were channelling someone @ RI ( Oh, guess!): vaccines caused polio in 180 children in India! And, courtesy of Google, I found: “Polio Vaccines Now the #1 Cause of Polio Paralyis” by Sayer Ji ( @ Prison Planet; Info Wars).

    If you look closely at the anti-vaccine movement, you’ll see the same names popping up again and again: Tenpenny, Humphries, Taylor, Olmsted et al. However, any one of them may show up in ten different places ( or if their name is Jake, they may also show up *physically* in ten places to bother someone). Interestingly the *new* Canary Party lists names familiar to us. Anti-vaxxers make use of the web woo-meisters’ media and captive audience as well. I think that it is an attempt to make their number larger than it really is, much like animal puffs itself up to appear larger and more powerful than it is in truth.

  15. #15 Denice Walter
    January 31, 2012

    @ Science Mom:
    lots of WASP protein around here too I should think!

    More seriously, addendum to above:

    AoA seems perturbed that the DSM-5 may *decrease* the number of people so categorised. Interesting.

  16. #16 Sarah
    January 31, 2012

    The “pro-safe vaccine” label is a classic bit of spin which positions the rest of us as, presumably, “pro-dangerous vaccines” – in favour of sticking any old muck in children’s arms.

    Which, come to think, is how the anti-vacciners do seem to see us.

  17. #17 Autismum
    January 31, 2012

    I’m pro-safe vaccines that’s why I vaccinate my child, on schedule, with the vaccines that are available and recommnended and would advise others to do likewise. The vaccines have been shown time and again to be effective and far safer than contracting the diseases they protect against.

  18. #18 Taylor Laine
    January 31, 2012

    According to this new survey from the UK, there are as many autistic adults as there are children, so vaccines couldn’t have caused these adults to develop autism.

    http://www.autism.org.uk/news-and-events/news-from-the-nas/media-response-prevalence-study.aspx

  19. #19 ProgJohn
    January 31, 2012

    @Autismum. There is a massive difference between your “safe” and theirs. You use vaccines for which no harmful effects have been found during extensive pre-use testing and post-use monitoring. They insist that vaccines must be proved to be safe, an utterly impossible hurdle to reach. I wish they would all start eating only foods that have been proved to be safe, that would clean up the gene pool.

  20. #20 Denice Walter
    January 31, 2012

    ProgJohn is right. I have heard calls for vaccines- in order to be acceptable- needing to be “100% safe and effective” for *any* person and having the administering physician state as such *in writing*- which is like asking that airlines deliver *any* passenger safely and effectively, on time, on each and every flight without losing any baggage or spilling your drink, *guaranteed* in writing. On *this* planet.

  21. #21 Beamup
    January 31, 2012

    They insist that vaccines must be proved to be safe,

    Not only must they be 100% safe and 100% effective, they must also cure autism.

  22. #22 NJ
    January 31, 2012

    Beamup @ 20:

    Not only must they be 100% safe and 100% effective, they must also cure autism.

    In addition to cleaning whites whiter, solving the Palestinian issue to everyone’s satisfaction, and creating a workable playoff system for the FBS teams.

  23. #23 dreamer
    January 31, 2012

    Skepticism LITE in LA?
    LA Times “healthy skeptic” has no idea about science! Herbal supplements for Valentine’s day? Article reads almost like an advertorial! No word on supplements not being regulated, of uncertain and fluctuating potency etc.

    They ask two MD/ Phd/ professors and the profs answers “I don’t know” when asked if herbals work!!!! UGH!
    http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-skeptic-herbal-libido-20120123,0,7811492.story

    The vice-chairman of urology at SF state does NOT know if herbal enhancements work?!
    quote: “Dr. Tom Lue, professor and vice chairman of urology at UC San Francisco. “We still don’t know what controls sex drive.”

    Lue has studied the effects of horny goat weed on rats in his lab, and he’s familiar with the scientific literature on herbs for sexual enhancement. His take on whether any herbal libido products are worth a try: “I don’t know.””

    Then they go on to quote some other urologist who seems to think Horny Goats weed “works” … UGH again (and no word on what active ingredient, or in what concentration etc)

    quote: “Dr. Rany Shamloul, a urologist at Queen’s University in Kingston, Ontario, says that horny goat weed and ginseng are the two best-studied ingredients found in libido supplements, and they’re also the most likely to be helpful.

    As he wrote in a 2010 review article in the Journal of Sexual Medicine, horny goat weed does seem to improve sexual function — at least in animal studies. And although the jury is still out, he thinks the herb may help stoke desire in humans.”

    and this is supposed to be healthy skepticism .. LITE in LA ?! UGH !

  24. #24 Sid Offit
    January 31, 2012

    @MikeMa

    Whooping cough outbreak reported in 2 high schools outside of Philly. Free vaccines on offer now. I hope no one dies.

    Yeah me too, Mike. By the way, do high school students often die when they get whooping cough?

  25. #25 dedicated lurker
    January 31, 2012

    By the way, do high school students often die when they get whooping cough?

    Well, I didn’t die, but I coughed up a lung once in a while for three months straight. Not much fun.

  26. #26 Sid Offit
    January 31, 2012

    Sorry to hear that, DL. By the way, how’d you get the lung back into your body?

  27. #27 missmayinga
    January 31, 2012

    Yeah me too, Mike. By the way, do high school students often die when they get whooping cough?

    No, they don’t. But highschoolers have, on occasion, been known to come in contact with infants. And infants? Yeah, they die.

  28. #28 Roadstergal
    January 31, 2012

    I like “DNA snips.” Did he hear ‘SNP’ at some point and think it meant, well, a little snippa DNA?

    I know, what’s one droplet of misunderstanding in such a torrent…

  29. #29 Todd
    January 31, 2012

    It’s hard to take anything you write seriously given that you can’t spell worth a damn and can’t take three seconds to use spellcheck.

  30. #30 dedicated lurker
    January 31, 2012

    By the way, how’d you get the lung back into your body?

    I’ve got an identical twin.

  31. #31 Beamup
    January 31, 2012

    @ NJ:

    In addition to cleaning whites whiter, solving the Palestinian issue to everyone’s satisfaction, and creating a workable playoff system for the FBS teams.

    That’s hyperbole – mine was quite serious. Unless vaccines do cure autism, the loons will point to the continued existence of autistic individuals as conclusive proof of “vaccine injury.” Since we all just know that’s the cause.

  32. #32 Ashley
    January 31, 2012

    Lets see the studies proving that EVERY one these vaccines are saving lives and have a greater reward than risk. Could you please provide that information? People have been compensated for vaccine injury, it is very real. Look it up people. Its FACT. If there was NO RISK than why would your dr give you that little paper listing what to watch out for after your child is vaccinated? It must just be for fun!

  33. #33 NJ
    January 31, 2012

    Beamup @ 31:

    That’s hyperbole

    Quite true. But given their ability to move the goalposts on topics near and dear to their hearts, not out of line I would submit.

  34. #34 Anton P. Nym
    January 31, 2012

    If there was NO RISK than why would your dr give you that little paper listing what to watch out for after your child is vaccinated?

    Vaccines are demonstrably safer than cars. People have been compensated for automobile injuries; they’re very real, look it up. If there were NO RISK to cars then why would they put in air bags? They must just be for fun!

    (Seriously, even taking VAERS at face value vaccines have a vastly lower risk of injury or mortality than cars; the most dangerous phase in a vaccination is the drive to the clinic.)

    — Steve

  35. #35 palindrom
    January 31, 2012

    Todd @29 —

    “It’s hard to take anything you write seriously given that you can’t spell worth a damn and can’t take three seconds to use spellcheck.”

    I’m a preternaturally good speller, and I find Orac’s spelling to be pretty good. And his output is enormous, so I don’t mind the occasional error.

    As for taking him seriously? Well, he’s immensely knowledgeable about a range of biomedical issues, and some others as well. He also has a finely-tuned crap detector, and an apparently infinite supply of much-needed irony meters. He’s a clear writer, a lively stylist, and is often very funny.

    If you want to argue substance, go ahead. But prepare to be seriously outgunned.

  36. #36 Ren
    January 31, 2012

    I think that it is an attempt to make their number larger than it really is, much like animal puffs itself up to appear larger and more powerful than it is in truth.

    Or like Bane taking in all those chemicals (in their case, chelators and testosterone blockers, maybe) to bulk up to an enormous size and try to kill Batman.

    And can someone remind Mr. Schecter that plenty of high schools nowadays have programs whereby kids in them go to healthcare facilities with susceptible populations as part of their studies, volunteer programs, boy scout projects, or court-mandated service?

  37. #37 Pro-Informed-Consent
    January 31, 2012

    The unfortunate part about this debate is that informed consent/choice is actually oxymoronic. When the information isn’t readily available, albeit doesn’t even exist, it’s extremely difficult to make an informed choice about your child’s health, safety and vitality. The parts that are available are the ingredients in vaccinations and, with a little extra research, the affects of those ingredients (which biomagnify with each exposure, be it in the form of vaccinations, environmental, ingested, inhaled, etc). I’m not anti-anything. In fact I like to consider myself open to many things and thus many opinions. I see where you’re coming from, I really do. But on the other hand, personally, I do my damnedest to limit our exposure to neurological toxins, hormone disrupters and foreign particulates. We have enough toxicity around us that cannot be avoided, what I have control over is without a doubt going to be avoided. Thanks for your time in reading my comment. All the best.

  38. #38 Beamup
    January 31, 2012

    Lets see the studies proving that EVERY one these vaccines are saving lives and have a greater reward than risk. Could you please provide that information?

    Search PubMed for the vaccine you’re interested in, plus “safety” and “efficacy.” It’s all there.

    And nobody claims that vaccines have no risk. That’s an impossibility for any intervention which actually does anything.

  39. #39 Edith Prickly
    January 31, 2012

    Wow – 35 comments in and no appearance from the Thing That Must Not Be Named? This topic is right up it’s infection-promoting alley. OTOH, there are some typically incisive comments from the fire scientist. When you perfect a method that’s 100% effective at preventing fires, let us know.

  40. #40 JustaTech
    January 31, 2012

    So these anti-vaccine folks are flipping out over
    “may contain residue from insect cells, yeast, mouse brains, tissue from pigs, guinea pigs, rabbits, dogs, calf lymph, hens’ eggs, chick embryos, monkey kidney and testicle cells, retinal cells, aborted human fetal cells and cancer cells”

    Out of curiosity, are they aware of the main component of dust? That’s right, HUMAN skin cells!1! Hello, half the stuff on the “ohh scary” list is food! Yeast, food. Hen’s eggs, food. Pigs, guinea pigs, rabbits, all food (if not necessarily food in all of the world).

    Clealry these people have no idea what they interact with every day. You are covered in bacteria, inside and out! There is poo everywhere! You eat insect eggs all the time! And guess what, the vast majority of people ain’t dead yet.

    Yes, some people will have an adverse reaction to a vaccine, potentially even a serious or fatal reaction. Some people will have adverse reactions to peanuts. That doesn’t mean anyone is suggesting that we burn peanut fields worldwide.

    Sheesh, get a grip. (And thanks, Orac, for covering this.)

  41. #41 JGC
    January 31, 2012

    Sid–Why are you ignoring the importance of herd immunity?

    As missmayinga pointed out, highschoolers don’t usually die as the result of contracting pertussis. Infants,the elderly and those who for health reasons are not candidates for immunization do however and approximately 90% of pertussis-related deaths occur in infants less than 6 months old. Infected highschoolers and adults represent the largest source of pertussis infections in younger children and infants.

    Sid–Why are you acting as if the only adverse consequence of pertussis infection we should consider when evaluating the risk versus benefit of immunization is death?

    While pertussis is rarely lethal in otherwise healthy adults it is responsible for about 10% of adult hospitalizations for pneumonia, and complications in adults and adolescents include weight loss, rib fractures from severe coughing, encephalopathy, syncope, subconjunctival hemorraghing, etc.

    An finally, since this thread addresses the distinction between pro-safe vaccination as opposed to anti-vaccination, if you consider yourself to be the former rather than the latter two questions logically follow:

    How exactly can one distinguish between safe vaccines and all other vaccines?

    Which current vaccines represent safe rather than unsafe vaccines?

  42. #42 Allen
    January 31, 2012

    Agreed that obviously vaccines have a risk factor associated. It is my personal opinion (no sense trying to sway that) that vaccines against DEADLY diseases (mainly polio and tetanus) are good – great in fact. Chicken pox and the flu vaccine? Nahh, I’ll pass. IF I vaccinate my daughter, it will be after the age of 2 and will be highly selective. In which case it would be polio and tetanus, although it’s impossible to get those vaccines by their lonesome so we’ll see what we do about the combo. shots – oh and p.s. when is your body ever exposed to diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis simultaneously? Oh that’s right, only when they’re all injected directly into your 8 month olds bloodstream. Strain on the system? I think yes. All other illnesses are, undoubtedly, extremely unfortunate and hard for parents to endure. However, once you’ve been exposed to and gone through them naturally (whooping cough, yes, is manageable and treatable, most of whom would argue it isn’t probably formula feed their poor infants) then they are TRULY immune for life. None of this 90% (ish) “immunity” you get from vaccines. Over and out!

  43. #43 Beamup
    January 31, 2012

    Obviously Allen has never seen an infant die from pertussis.

  44. #44 Candice
    January 31, 2012

    If these vaccinations are SO SAFE, then why did I get a very high fever within two hours of the shots that sent me into convulsions and swelling of my brain(encephalitis), and then left me with permanent brain damage and seizures for which I had to have brain surgery to stop. This was the Pertussis shot that they are pushing so much now. Not only me, but three of my cousins and my niece all had the same reaction. EXPLAIN THAT ONE!!!

  45. #45 Allen
    January 31, 2012

    Obviously parents today have lost/are not interested in age-old adage on how to deal with a pertussis infant. Personally know a mother of 4, all 4 of whom fell ill with pertussis but, being an amazingly fantastic MOTHER, she struggled through weeks of agony to give her children true, life-time immunity. None of them died thanks to her watchful eye and holistic treatments.

  46. #46 stewartt1982
    January 31, 2012

    @Allen – 43

    So you are blaming the parents when their children die of pertussis. They just weren’t doing it right.

    Pertussis in infants is not anywhere near 100% fatal for infants/newborns … so you story about her 4 children not dying isn’t exactly surprising.

  47. #47 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    January 31, 2012

    Allen – so to avoid the risks of very infrequent (though, I have to point out, very real in the very small number of cases where they occur) complications that come with immunization, you’d rather children and their parents went through “weeks of agony” and the very real possibilities of complications up to and including death?

  48. #48 JGC
    January 31, 2012

    The parts that are available are the ingredients in vaccinations and, with a little extra research, the affects of those ingredients (which biomagnify with each exposure, be it in the form of vaccinations, environmental, ingested, inhaled, etc).

    Please support your claim that the ingredients in vaccinations ‘biomagnify’ (may I assume that’s an anti-vax buzz word for ‘accumulate’?) with each exposure, and that biomagnification of the ingredients in vaccinations actually confers a health risk? This statement appears to ignore everything known about ADME and pharmacokinetics.

    Consider thimerosal, perhaps the anti-vaxer’s favorite monster in the closet because it incorporates (gasp!) mercury. Rather than accumulate it rapidly dissociates to form ethyl (not methyl) mercury following injection and is rapidly eliminated from teh body, primarily by fecal excretion.

    In infants following vaccination ethyl mercury has a half-life of less than 4 days and blood mercury levels return to pre-vaccination levels by 30 days after vaccination. (see Mercury Levels in Newborns and Infants After Receipt of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines, Pichichero et al, Pediatrics Vol. 121 No. 2 February 1, 2008 pp. e208 -e214)

  49. #49 Dangerous Bacon
    January 31, 2012

    “…being an amazingly fantastic MOTHER, she struggled through weeks of agony to give her children true, life-time immunity.”

    “No antibiotics for my children, I’m going to make sure they have weeks of agony so they can develop true, life-time immunity!!!”

    Mother of the year, no doubt.

  50. #50 Science Mom
    January 31, 2012

    The unfortunate part about this debate is that informed consent/choice is actually oxymoronic. When the information isn’t readily available, albeit doesn’t even exist, it’s extremely difficult to make an informed choice about your child’s health, safety and vitality.

    You start off your “I’m not anti-vaccine” protestation with the biggest canards of so-called “informed consent”. There really isn’t a debate as false balance is constructed by anti-vaxx arguments. What information isn’t readily available? What are you having difficulty locating?

    The parts that are available are the ingredients in vaccinations and, with a little extra research, the affects of those ingredients (which biomagnify with each exposure, be it in the form of vaccinations, environmental, ingested, inhaled, etc).

    “Biomagnify”?! Are you serious? I have to wonder what your “research” consists of and why you seem to be wilfully ignoring the vast amount of data that are available.

    But on the other hand, personally, I do my damnedest to limit our exposure to neurological toxins, hormone disrupters and foreign particulates. We have enough toxicity around us that cannot be avoided, what I have control over is without a doubt going to be avoided.

    Of course exposures to potential toxins should be avoided whenever possible but the crux is dose. Mere exposure doesn’t constitute toxicity so your decision to not vaccinate based upon what you have simply decided is toxic is not informed consent at all but rather a misinformed decision.

  51. #51 Th1Th2
    January 31, 2012

    Wow – 35 comments in and no appearance from the Thing That Must Not Be Named?

    I’m on a different level.

  52. #52 herr doktor bimler
    January 31, 2012

    age-old adage on how to deal with a pertussis infant.

    1. Pray.
    2. Accuse the neighbour of witchcraft.

  53. #53 Rich Woods
    January 31, 2012

    @Allen:

    > then they are TRULY immune for life

    Catching pertussis normally does tend to confer a longer-lasting immunity than that which a vaccination might provide.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15876927

    However a considerable point in favour of vaccination is that catching the disease puts babies and infants at far greater risk than it does adolescents and adults.

    http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/803186-overview

    Additionally, the risk of spreading the infection to other human beings should (if you have an ounce of human compassion) also be factored in.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

  54. #54 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    January 31, 2012

    Candice,
    Nobody claims that vaccines are without risk and I’m sorry to hear about your problems. It can be hard to realize that most people don’t have issues with this vaccination when you’ve had such a bad time of it.

  55. #55 Beamup
    January 31, 2012

    Let’s also note that Candice’s story is actually a strong argument FOR vaccination. Some people cannot themselves be safely and effectively vaccinated for whatever reason. Their only chance of not getting potentially deadly diseases is to rely upon herd immunity.

  56. #56 Stu
    January 31, 2012

    I’m on a different level.

    Yes you are precious… yes you are.

  57. #57 JGC
    January 31, 2012

    I was thinking the traditional age-old adage is “Bear lots of kids, that way a few will manage to survive infancy”.

  58. #58 Cynical Pediatrician
    January 31, 2012

    Allen–if you truly have a daughter then you’d better do much more research on vaccines, since you apparently don’t realize that we now immunize against Hib and pneumococcal meningitis, among other diseases you conspicuously didn’t mention. Due to their immature immune systems, infants have a particular vulnerability to Hib and pneumococcus, and no amount of “holistic treatments” will save them at that point. That’s why these 2 vaccines in particular were developed, and they have proven to be incredibly effective.

    Also, I hope you realize that natural infection is no guarantee of lifelong immunity. Your pooh-poohing of chicken pox and flu is quite telling, since those two in particular can still lead to recurrent future infection. If you’ve ever had either one you should know they are both absolutely miserable experiences. When comparing a quick flu shot (or nasal spray) with a week of fever, congestion, and aches, I’d rather take the former, thank you.

  59. #59 JGC
    January 31, 2012

    Allen, re: your anecdote about the mother of four children with pertussis.

    You left out a critical piece of information: at what age did each of these children contract pertussis? Without this information we can’t assess whether or not the fact they all survived represents an unexpected outcome.

  60. #60 Allen
    January 31, 2012

    My gosh! What a witch hunt this turned in to. I refuse to continue any futile attempts at potentially swaying someones opinion or, at best, hoping that they develop some critical thought. I sincerely hope that none of you ever have to live your lives caring for a vaccine damaged child (not that you’d make the connection anyway). Good bye and good day!!

  61. #61 herr doktor bimler
    January 31, 2012

    What a witch hunt this turned in to.
    Allen is HEAVIER THAN A DUCK.

  62. #62 OhWow
    January 31, 2012

    heheh, love the name calling on such biased blogs :)

  63. #63 Beamup
    January 31, 2012

    Apparently anything other than unquestioning agreement now constitutes a “witch hunt.” I can’t help but observe that those who can actually back up their claims aren’t so reluctant to do so.

  64. #64 Science Mom
    January 31, 2012

    oh and p.s. when is your body ever exposed to diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis simultaneously? Oh that’s right, only when they’re all injected directly into your 8 month olds bloodstream.

    Hey Einstein, DTaP isn’t exposure to Diphtheria, Tetanus and Pertussis at the same time; it’s a toxoid vaccine. Vaccines aren’t ‘injected directly into the bloodstream’ either. And you’re probably patting yourself on the back for making such ‘informed decisions’ for your bebe.

    Strain on the system? I think yes. All other illnesses are, undoubtedly, extremely unfortunate and hard for parents to endure. However, once you’ve been exposed to and gone through them naturally (whooping cough, yes, is manageable and treatable, most of whom would argue it isn’t probably formula feed their poor infants) then they are TRULY immune for life. None of this 90% (ish) “immunity” you get from vaccines.

    Pertussis isn’t always ‘manageable and treatable’ as ten dead infants in California can’t attest to. But they probably had bad parents right you jackass? Furthermore, what in Hades gives you the notion that pertussis infection confers lifelong immunity?

    Over and out!

    Ok Radar.

  65. #65 Science Mom
    January 31, 2012

    Personally know a mother of 4, all 4 of whom fell ill with pertussis but, being an amazingly fantastic MOTHER, she struggled through weeks of agony to give her children true, life-time immunity. None of them died thanks to her watchful eye and holistic treatments.

    What a terrific mum; I’m sure her children will thank her profusely if they don’t grow up to have their heads as stuck up their arses as their mother does.

  66. #66 Pro-Choice
    January 31, 2012

    No, it seems that outright attacks and name-calling deter people from having a civil open discussion about such finicky topics. When I stated that “the information” wasn’t available, I was mostly referring to the unbiased, double blind, scientific studies that compare vax vs. unvax children well into adulthood. No such thing exists and that is highly unfortunate/questionable. At risk of sounding like one of these “witches” you’re “hunting,” there are plenty of articles, studies and the like that show the correlation between “modern” ailments and the rise of vaccinations. Unfortunately, just as Arpad Pusztai was exiled and ridiculed from the scientific community after his findings of GMO food, Doctors who question vaccines refuse to speak out about such topics at the risk of their livelihoods being threatened. Believe me or not, I’m not trying to attack anyone or say you’re wrong for vaccinating your children. It’s a matter of choice; I am just extremely grateful that choice is one of few things we have left.

  67. #67 JGC
    January 31, 2012

    Allen, you’ve advanced a position while making specific claims (e.g., ingredients in vaccinations biomagnify with each exsposure). All that’s happening is that people are addressing your position and asking you to support your claims.

    Discussion, yes. Debate? Perhaps. A witch hunt? Not so much…

    If you’re being asked questions you’re unprepared to answer, or being asked for credible support for your claims you can’t provide, if all you have to offer is repeated assertions without support coupled with accusations that those who disagree lack the ability to think critically, your choosing to abandon the discussion is understandable.

    Otherwise you simply appear to be taking your bat and ball and runnig home because we won’t let win (or is that perhaps too critical a thought?)

  68. #68 stewartt1982
    January 31, 2012

    @Allen – 57

    I love how Allen considers simple questioning of his comments* is elevated to the level of a “witch hunt”.

    Makes me think of a scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail scene. “Help, help, I’m being repressed!”

    *HINT – Allen, if you want to convince someone, on any topic, you need better evidence than simple stating and expecting people to accept.

  69. #69 Narad
    January 31, 2012

    In which case it would be polio and tetanus, although it’s impossible to get those vaccines by their lonesome

    Both TT and IPV are available by themselves…

    However, once you’ve been exposed to and gone through them naturally (whooping cough, yes, is manageable and treatable, most of whom would argue it isn’t probably formula feed their poor infants) then they are TRULY immune for life. None of this 90% (ish) “immunity” you get from vaccines. Over and out!

    …and you’re asserting that “natural” pertussis immunity is lifelong to boot?

  70. #70 Marry Me, Mindy
    January 31, 2012

    JGC – I don’t think that even matters. As far as I am aware, the mortality rate of perussis is no where near 25%. Even if it were as high as 10% (it isn’t) their would be a 2/3 chance that 4 kids would come out alive. Considering mortality is not close to 10%, the significance of 4 kids surviving is nil.

    And this gets to Allen’s dismissal of vaccination for “non-deadly” diseases like chicken pox or the flu. Exactly how deadly does something need to be to “deadly”? Because the chicken pox has a mortality rate of about 1/20000 in children. That’s 10 – 20 times less than the measles, sure, but it is not zero. Moreover, even if it doesn’t kill you, the chicken pox is not pleasant.

    As a parent, I cannot grasp the concept of how someone could wish the chicken pox upon their child as opposed to the vaccine. Yes, with the vaccine there can be some discomfort for a bit, maybe a day of low-grade fever and swelling at the injection site, although more severe reactions are possible, albeit very rare (the paperwork for the chicken pox vaccine IIRC indicates that serious reactions have been reported but are too rare to even be attributable to the vaccine). I do not know if there has ever been a death associated with the chicken pox vaccine.

    Meanwhile, about 1/20K kids who get the chicken pox die. And while most do not die, they do have 1 – 2 weeks of an extremely itchy rash that prevents them from eating and sleeping, with some mild fever and needing quarantine (unless you are an asshole and deliberate expose others to it)

    How is this even a question? How could anyone who has kids choose the chicken pox over the vaccine? What kind of sadist would do that?

    And while getting the vaccine does not necessarily prevent the chicken pox, the cases that do result are milder and do not last as long. Even if that were the only result of the vaccine, it would be more than worth it.

    Then again, maybe my problem is that I actually care for my kids?

  71. #71 Beamup
    January 31, 2012

    I was mostly referring to the unbiased, double blind, scientific studies that compare vax vs. unvax children well into adulthood. No such thing exists and that is highly unfortunate/questionable.

    No such study should ever exist, as it’s completely unacceptable to deliberately leave children unprotected against dangerous diseases for research purposes. Especially on an already-answered question.

    But we’ve already established that you don’t care about dead babies.

  72. #72 Pro-Choice
    January 31, 2012

    @ Th1Th2, you are on a different level. If everyone here could familiarize themselves with Th1/Th2 and vaccinations then maybe we could all see a little more eye-to-eye.

  73. #73 Anton P. Nym
    January 31, 2012

    biomagnify

    Is that like Voltron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltron) so that putting them together makes them superpowerful? Cool…

    — Steve

  74. #74 Orac
    January 31, 2012

    Note that Pro-Choice, Allen, Pro-Informed Consent, and OhWow are all sock puppets.

    Allen, this is your only warning. No sock puppets are allowed on this blog. Pick a pseudonym and stick with it or be banned. I don’t give a rodent’s posterior what you say about me or how much you disagree with me. I do, however, care when trolls infest my comments and morph into different identities.

  75. #75 Narad
    January 31, 2012

    age-old adage on how to deal with a pertussis infant.

    1. Pray.
    2. Accuse the neighbour of witchcraft.

    3. Throw sodium ascorbate at them until you manage to add diarrhea to the mix.

  76. #76 Pro-Choice
    January 31, 2012

    Hi Orac – yes, Pro-Choice and Pro-Informed Consent are both myself (a sock puppet?). I didn’t bother going through all the previous comments to find the name I initially used. Feel free to combine my comments or, I suppose, ban me? Wasn’t calling you a troll, overtly disagreeing or trying to be rude. Was merely voicing my opinion in our free country, thank you.

  77. #77 herr doktor bimler
    January 31, 2012

    those ingredients (which biomagnify with each exposure…

    Wiki defines Biomagnification as “the increase in concentration of a substance that occurs in a food chain”, so I think the sockpuppet is worried about potential mercury exposure from eating children.

  78. #78 Th1Th2
    January 31, 2012

    @ Th1Th2, you are on a different level. If everyone here could familiarize themselves with Th1/Th2 and vaccinations then maybe we could all see a little more eye-to-eye.

    Don’t worry, these infection promoters won’t even pass the Th1/Th2 level.

  79. #79 Pro-Choice
    January 31, 2012

    So sorry you all have to get so worked up over all of this. I, too, used the word biomagnify in my original post. It does mean that things increase in concentration as they go up the food chain. It is a term coined by Rachel Carson in her book “Silent Spring” which you should definitely familiarize yourself with if issues such as these are of any importance. Do not, however, read it if you’re into romance novels and the latest episode of Greys Anatomy as clearly it won’t be up your alley. Infants – actually, fetuses – are at the top of the food chain. Nursing infants also fall into that category, having received all of the mothers nutrients as well as her “biomagnified” toxic substances which are stored in the tissue of her fat (breastmilk), never being able to be broken down or dissolved unless, of course, to the innocence, susceptible, underdeveloped system of a nursing newborn. Anyway, my point there is that newborns and young infants are already exposed to numerous amounts of toxic chemicals from the time they are conceived. The further infiltration of these chemicals into their fragile systems is a scale just waiting to be tipped to the side of destruction :(

  80. #80 ArtK
    January 31, 2012

    @ Allen

    Hi Orac – yes, Pro-Choice and Pro-Informed Consent are both myself (a sock puppet?). I didn’t bother going through all the previous comments to find the name I initially used. Feel free to combine my comments or, I suppose, ban me?

    There are a whopping 72 comments ahead of this one, so either you’re lazy or disingenuous. Commenting under several ‘nyms is considered very bad form on the ‘net. It’s an attempt to make yourself look more important by being supported by “different” people who all seem like they agree.

    Wasn’t calling you a troll, overtly disagreeing or trying to be rude. Was merely voicing my opinion in our free country, thank you.

    And, if you read Orac’s comment, he doesn’t care if you call him names or disagree with him, so don’t go whining about your opinion and a free country.

  81. #81 JGC
    January 31, 2012

    assuming you’re sticking to pro choice, a couple of questions

    You’ve already been informed that the double-blind study you’re asking for would be unethical. Note it would also be unnecessary: epidemioloigc studies can and do directly compare vacinated versus unvacinated cohorts over both long and short term, by means of hospital and public health records which include vaccination history. None to doate suggest that the adverse events (long or short term) associated with immunization vaccines represent are a more significant health risk than vulnerability to the diseases they protect against.

    As for plenty of articles, studies etc. claiming a correlation between vaccination and “modern” ailments 9and one wonders why modern is in quotes) surely you’re aware that correlation doesn’t equal causation? If, on the other hand, you know of any studies demonstrating a causal effect between vaccination and whatever you mean by “modern” ailment, please share it with us.

    Then we can discuss risk versus benefit (i.e., are the reduced risks of adverse consequence following infection conferred by immunization insufficient to outweigh the risks of developing a “modern ailment” following immunization?)

  82. #82 JGC
    January 31, 2012

    Oh, and if you were an inadvertent sockk puppet why did your “Allen” persona huffily announce they were abandoning the discussion, while your “Pro-choice” persona cheerfully continued posting?

    Can I expect “Pro-choice” to answer the questions I asked “Allen” anytime soon?

  83. #83 Beamup
    January 31, 2012

    Let’s also note the hypocrisy inherent in chastising ORAC for supposedly suppressing contrary opinion when antivax sites routinely disallow all opposing views.

  84. #84 Jargon
    January 31, 2012

    The arrogant ignorance found here is overwhelming. It appears all of you “scientists” are a little too black and white for a discussion involving so much gray area.

  85. #85 Jargon
    January 31, 2012

    The arrogant ignorance found here is overwhelming. It appears all of you “scientists” are a little too black and white for a discussion involving so much gray area.

  86. #86 Shay
    January 31, 2012

    As a parent, I cannot grasp the concept of how someone could wish the chicken pox upon their child as opposed to the vaccine

    As someone who has had chickenpox (and shingles), I can’t either.

  87. #87 Mu
    January 31, 2012

    As for the lack of lifelong immunity, there’s always the booster shot. My college was actually offering them for free during initial visits to the health clinic. And every 20 years maybe, a $200 investment to not having to take 2 weeks of work because you sat on a bus full of Waldorf pupils on the way to work?

  88. #88 Krebiozen
    January 31, 2012

    This is all clearly far too complex to reply on a bit of Googling to provide the right answer. This is about people’s lives and well-being, it’s far too important to leave it in the hands of amateurs. Maybe what the government should do is form an organization, fill it with the most intelligent people possible and get them to spend several decades learning about vaccines, the immune system, epidemiology and all the relevant evidence. They could even have some sort of test to check that they really do understand it all properly. Once they have studied and carefully assessed all the evidence they could come to a truly informed conclusion about whether vaccines are safe, and which should be given to children when. Maybe they could call this organization something like The Institute of Medicine or The Center for Disease Control. Oh wait, they already did… [/sarcasm]

  89. #89 Edith Prickly
    January 31, 2012

    Personally know a mother of 4, all 4 of whom fell ill with pertussis but, being an amazingly fantastic MOTHER, she struggled through weeks of agony to give her children true, life-time immunity. None of them died thanks to her watchful eye and holistic treatments.

    Is this supposed to be an example of good parenting? Making children suffer so Mom can cling to her completely irrational notions about disease transmission and immunity? Interesting that you don’t mention the agony (weeks of violent coughing, exhaustion, vomiting, risk of secondary infection, etc.) the children had to go through while Mom subjected them to “holistic treatments”, whatever than means (crystals? reiki? homeopathy? chelation therapy? colon cleansing..?) All because a tiny fringe of zealots have decided to demonize vaccination, which could have prevented everyone’s agony in this situation.

    And BTW, the DTaP shot is given in the thigh muscle for babies, not injected into the bloodstream as you incorrectly stated above.

  90. #90 conspicuouscarl
    January 31, 2012

    > insect cells, yeast, mouse brains,
    > tissue from pigs, guinea pigs, rabbits,
    > dogs, calf lymph, hens’ eggs, chick
    > embryos, monkey kidney and testicle cells,

    Don’t they sell whole bottles of those things at the TCM shops?

  91. #91 ArtK
    January 31, 2012

    @ Allen (or whoever)

    Personally know a mother of 4, all 4 of whom fell ill with pertussis but, being an amazingly fantastic MOTHER, she struggled through weeks of agony to give her children true, life-time immunity.

    There’s a difference between noble and stupid. This mother crossed that line. Her “struggle” doesn’t move me at all — what moves me is the pain and discomfort her children went through. For that, she deserves condemnation, not approval. (There’s nothing noble in sacrificing your children to your own martyr complex.) She did this in the name of “life-long immunity” which isn’t life-long at all. There’s nothing magical about “natural” immunity.

  92. #92 MI Dawn
    January 31, 2012

    Allen, Pro-Choice – whomever-you-are: Lifetime immunity to pertussis doesn’t exist. That’s been learned through (gasp) scientific studies.

    Even in those who HAD pertussis (the real disease, not a cold that someone decided was pertussis), the immunity has been found to last only 4-20 years – not much different than the immunity obtained from the vaccine.

    As an adult who experienced pertussis, all I can say is I’m making SURE in the future to be re-immunized whenever I can be. Coughing for 100 days doesn’t sound so bad, does it? Until you realize that it’s not just a cough. It’s coughing so hard and so constantly you can’t breathe between the coughs, you vomit, you break ribs, you urinate on yourself, you can’t eat, you can’t sleep, you can’t drink any liquids…I continually blessed my physician who gave me enough narcotics to calm the cough so I could eat, sleep, drink, and say more than 2 words at a time without 5 minutes of non-stop coughing.

    If your fantastic mom friend had 4 kids sick at the same time with pertussis, I bow my head to her. Of course, in anyone over about 5, pertussis was/is rarely fatal. It still CAN be, and it’s a horrible disease to experience. I’ll take the vaccine and make sure my kids keep theirs up to date to, so they don’t have to experience what I did.

    (My eldest was actually working in Virginia when they had their outbreak about a year ago – she swore after seeing some of the poor kids coughing that she would never ever miss that vaccine for herself or her possible future children.)

    And, before you say it again, yes, we are all aware of vaccine injuries. Yes, we are all aware that vaccines aren’t perfectly safe. Neither is eating, drinking, driving your car, giving birth to a child, or owning a pet. When you can point to ONE thing that is perfectly safe for all people at all times, then we’ll let you convince us that vaccines should be perfect also.

  93. #93 dedicated lurker
    January 31, 2012

    And for the record, I wasn’t formula fed as an infant. Or for that matter at fourteen.

  94. #94 Roger Kulp
    January 31, 2012

    JGC@46

    I realize it’s been said countless times before,but it really is a shame that so much research time,and money has gone into disproving the claims of the antivaxers,rather than into finding more of the causes of the conditions that cause autism,because we’ve only found a fraction of them.I only hope that institutions have wised up,and will no longer fund any more such foolish studies.Nothing will ever please them.

  95. #95 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    January 31, 2012

    herr doktor bimler – but if he’s heavier than a duck he might be made of stone.

  96. #96 Tamara
    January 31, 2012

    Travelled safe and sound with my 100% non-vax 12 month old to the Dominican Republic :) She has had a clean-bill-of-health since she scored a perfect 10 at our home, water birth assisted by midwives with no intervention or drugs. Loving this forum – but mostly loving “alternative” medicine. (Ironic, really, that “alternative” medicine is named as such)

  97. #97 lilady
    January 31, 2012

    OMG…while I was away from my laptop, Orac posts a great commentary about the activities of a particularly stupid anti-vax website…which evoked responses from our resident trolls and a bunch of sock puppets.

    @ Offal: Why weren’t you consulted for your expertise in “fire science” by (Dr.) Dan Olmsted? “Doctor Dan” is “on the scene” at the Leroy School in New York, alongside Erin Brockavich investigating why school children are experiencing tics. “Traditional” doctors have attributed their symptoms to psychogenic disorders. Certainly you have exemplary credentials (a degree in “fire science” from a fourth tier school), to be considered an expert in vaccine-induced disorders.

    Has anyone kept a sock puppet scorecard for me? For the sockpuppet(s) who posted here; I had pertussis two years ago and it ain’t no walk in the park. I knew my early symptoms were “different” from an upper respiratory infection, went to my doctor, started antibiotics which shortened the course of the illness and decreased that chance that I would have infected a vulnerable infant or adult. I required an inhaler for 30 days and big bottles of codeine cough syrup to suppress the wracking coughs.

    Get your Tdap vaccine in lieu of the Td booster. It is now recommended for adolescents, adults, health care providers and anyone who will be in close proximity to an infant who has not been fully immunized against pertussis. It is not necessary to wait until 10 years have elapsed since your last Td booster immunization.

  98. #98 LW
    January 31, 2012

    JGC @77 : “If, on the other hand, you know of any studies demonstrating a causal effect between vaccination and whatever you mean by “modern” ailment, please share it with us.”

    Oh, the incidence of ailments of old age in Western countries has gone up tremendously since people stopped dying of epidemic diseases in infancy or young adulthood.

  99. #99 Pro-Choice
    January 31, 2012

    Since all of my previous posts have not been allowed, I am merely testing to see if it’s even worth my time to respond here. If not, well, congratulations @ Orac on proving your narrow-mindedness :)

  100. #100 Science Mom
    January 31, 2012

    If not, well, congratulations @ Orac on proving your narrow-mindedness :)

    He doesn’t allow sock puppets, that’s all. Multiple ‘nyms is a douche move and not necessary unless you have self-esteem issues I suppose. That’s hardly “narrow-minded”. You on the other hand, well dim comes to mind.

  101. #101 Science Mom
    January 31, 2012

    Anyway, my point there is that newborns and young infants are already exposed to numerous amounts of toxic chemicals from the time they are conceived. The further infiltration of these chemicals into their fragile systems is a scale just waiting to be tipped to the side of destruction :(

    It appears to me that you would rather withhold vaccines from an infant because you’ve decided that the constituents are scary and toxic but won’t do anything to reduce your exposure to environmental ‘toxins’ that your infant will also be exposed to.

  102. #102 Pro-Choice testing123
    January 31, 2012

    A dear friend of my put her choice not to vax very kindly (and appropriately) in this response to a friend questioning her reasoning. After this, I am calling this “debate” quits as clearly when it comes to the health and future of our children we are so passionate that it really affects our ability to see the other person’s perspective. I must admit, this saddens me. I’m still on the fence about vaccination and I do believe that there is benefit in them. Personally, while I understand that the most susceptible time is in infancy, I will definitely be waiting until at least the 2nd year to vaccinate my daughter, if at all. At the ripe age of 1, I know her extremely well, I feel as though I need to know her personality that much more to really be aware of any adverse reactions, as we so clearly know they exist. As I stated before, that is my choice as an informed parent (where the information exists) and my belief as an educated individual. Call me what you will and dispute my decision. I don’t wish to call any of you names, I’m merely constituting for a time and a place to question things. Anyway, here is the post. I hope you take the time to read it.

    “I’m kinda surprised your so pro vaccine. I mean, I was too until I started doing some research and had babies. I didn’t even think about the safety of vaccinations until my perfect little baby boy was scheduled to be injected with 30 different strains of infections and the 100′s of different types of chemicals and toxins before his immune system was even developed. I believe there are really great scare tactics out there that pressure people into vaccinating their children for diseases and in most cases these diseases were all ready in decline before vaccinations came in to play. Our body has two branches for defending agains disease, when we inject a live vaccine into the blood stream and completely bypass this defence system and go right to the TH2 branch we face repercussions to our immune system that were not even aware of. When you get sick it shouldn’t be through your blood stream first, it should go into the nose or mouth and start fighting it there, we weaken our immune system when we don’t allow for the cold or the flu, etc. to take its course. The comment about the baby dying from the flu, there is research that indicates that SIDS can be linked to vaccinations, it’s almost as if you are saying that it’s better for their to be side effects such as, autism, asthma, allergies, cancer, SIDS, as long as the baby doesn’t get sick from the flu. (I know you’re not saying that because I know you but it’s a weird concept coming from you). I think people are afraid of getting sick, it’s inconvenient in our ultra-convenient world. We would rather ingest extremely unhealthy foods, drink abundant amounts of alcohol, over-work ourselves, then come to the realization that vaccines aren’t going to prevent disease, they don’t offer immunity (hence the booster shots that the pharmaceutical companies want you to continually have) they just stir up our immunity in an unsafe and illogical way. When doctors are trained on vaccinations guess who is doing the training? The representatives of pharma companies. Why do doctors that stand up against the use of vaccines get fired? Why do they use fetal embryos as a way to transport the diseases into babies? The sanitary conditions in the labs where these vaccines are being created are not at all what we think they are like, why? Because why would pharmaceutical companies who get paid when we get sick really want us to be healthy? They say that autism is not caused by vaccinations (even though the metals and chemicals that are being injected are going directly to the brain causing it to swell), they know for certain that it’s not but they can’t name one thing that is causing it? The level of sickness that is affecting our children is unbelievable for the level of healthcare, hygiene, access to nutritious food and technology that we all have at our fingertips. Why are our kids so sick? There are a lot of questions, there are a lot of diseases that have no answers but there is millions and millions of dollars being poured into trying to find a cure? I guess I’m just having a hard time buying that pharma companies have our best interest at heart, maybe they did, but not anymore. What’s amazing about our own body is it’s ability to heal itself, it’s beautiful. Had I gotten the measles or mumps as a child I would have been able to pass on those lovely antibodies (which would have made me immune for life!) unto my children through breast milk for the crucial parts of their life (the first two years) to make sure that they would not get theses diseases when they are young and their immune system is compromised. No extra unknown chemicals, no minor to extremely severe side effects. Ok, I’m going to stop, there’s more I could say but I’m tired now. It’s exhausting Jas and it’s infuriating that because I’m doing what I think is best for my kids and because it is not the norm people actually think that I’m doing a disservice to their well being. (I know you don’t think that).”

    And now that I see a few lamely responses, I must point out that my words have been misconstrued, twisted and warped into something completely different several times now. Too bad. No where does it say, or even hint at, what I do or do not do to avoid environmental toxins (among many, many other things). This forum is about vaccinations and my attempt was to keep it on point. Glad we are all mature parents about this! I’m a deceiving sock puppet here to conspire against all of you pro-vaxers, oooooohhhh watch out. LOL. Good night!

  103. #103 herr doktor bimler
    January 31, 2012

    Pro-Choice: I am merely testing to see if it’s even worth my time to respond here

    Your time is precious. Feel free not to squander it on us with more responses of this form:
    “I refuse to continue any futile attempts at potentially swaying someones opinion or, at best, hoping that they develop some critical thought. … Good bye and good day.”

  104. #104 Chris
    January 31, 2012

    Pro-Choice:

    was mostly referring to the unbiased, double blind, scientific studies that compare vax vs. unvax children well into adulthood. No such thing exists and that is highly unfortunate/questionable.

    Perhaps you would care to tell us how that kind of study would be done. Explain clearly how the children in the placebo arm will not be harmed. Plus include how the study would comply with both the Declaration of Helsinki and the Belmont Report.

    At risk of sounding like one of these “witches” you’re “hunting,” there are plenty of articles, studies and the like that show the correlation between “modern” ailments and the rise of vaccinations.

    And yet you have decided to not share those studies with us. Since you feel that the vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases, you should back that up by showing us your evidence. It would be simpler if you just cite the primary sources by giving us the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed studies that show vaccines are associated with “modern” ailments.

  105. #105 Sid Offit
    January 31, 2012

    @ JGC

    Sid–Why are you acting as if the only adverse consequence of pertussis infection we should consider when evaluating the risk versus benefit of immunization is death?

    Because MikeMa raised the death issue.

    And about as many seniors die of pertussis as high school kids. Which is about none.

  106. #106 attack_laurel
    January 31, 2012

    @Sockpuppet: I can see all your posts, I’m just unimpressed by any of them. Free speech does not mean freedom from criticism, especially when a lack of proper research and a tendency to go for emotional anecdote has been established.

    Orac, I live for this kind of post – too many people I know (which would be more than none, for values of “too many”) keep using these anti-vax canards, and your posts give me the language and the facts to refute the fiction.

  107. #107 Sid Offit
    January 31, 2012

    @JGC

    An finally, since this thread addresses the distinction between pro-safe vaccination as opposed to anti-vaccination, if you consider yourself to be the former rather than the latter two questions logically follow:

    How exactly can one distinguish between safe vaccines and all other vaccines?

    Which current vaccines represent safe rather than unsafe vaccines?

    I’m anti-forced vaccination, not anti-vaccination. As to safety, it’s more a question of whether the vaccine is needed in the first place. As you know ALL medical treatments carry risks. Besides, there are a host of safe products that provide little value. As such I don’t go out and get them. In regards to safety, let’s look at the flu shot. I don’t get the flu nor do I fear it, so even the slightest pain or flu-like symptoms from the shot would make me avoid it. In addition the recommendation to get one every year (for 50 years?) requires one to embark on a journey who’s effects have never been studied.

  108. #108 Andrew
    January 31, 2012

    “I am merely testing to see if it’s even worth my time to respond here”

    Indeed – your time is too precious for you even to keep track of which pseudonym you’re blathering under.

    “The arrogant ignorance found here is overwhelming.”

    That is the disadvantage of reading a blog that allows antivaxxers free range to expose their ignorance – but one of the ways we know that they’re wrong is by allowing them to make their best case, and seeing how weak it is (ever notice how the antivax sites censor comments, to protect their readers from being exposed to facts that might change their minds).

  109. #109 Hey Zeus is my Homeboy
    January 31, 2012
  110. #110 Mark M
    January 31, 2012

    I’m very Pro-Informed Consent and Pro-Choice when it comes to knowing whether or not a single commenter is posting under multiple identities.

    Shows a fundamental lack of honesty – and it’s none too smart, either.

    Now, what’s this ONE person’s opinion of vaccines…?

    Of course.

  111. #111 Narad
    January 31, 2012

    I’m anti-forced vaccination, not anti-vaccination.

    This is akin to being anti-forced bathing.

  112. #112 dedicated lurker
    January 31, 2012

    So, Sid, what vaccines would you get and why?

  113. #113 JGCmass
    January 31, 2012

    Because MikeMa raised the death issue.

    Mike cited a whooping cough outbreak among high schoolers, expressing the hope no one would die. That’s a very real concern, given that adolescents represent a significant portion of the vector reservoir responsible for transmission of pertussis to infants under 6 months of age.

    You responded “By the way, do high school students often die when they get whooping cough?”, which suggests you thought that adolescents infected with pertussis are at risk themselves but pose no risk to others. Once again–you do understand the importance of herd immunity, don’t you?

    And about as many seniors die of pertussis as high school kids. Which is about none.

  114. #114 Sid Offit
    January 31, 2012

    @baglady

    I see you’re still consumed with bitterness. It must eat away at you how the public health department simply discarded you after all the lives you saved.

  115. #115 alison
    January 31, 2012

    Mike cited a whooping cough outbreak among high schoolers, expressing the hope no one would die. That’s a very real concern, given that adolescents represent a significant portion of the vector reservoir responsible for transmission of pertussis to infants under 6 months of age.

    To which Sid responded: And about as many seniors die of pertussis as high school kids. Which is about none.

    So, Sid, don’t babies matter in your worldview?

  116. #116 JGC
    January 31, 2012

    Narad @ 110

    More like being anti forced sober driving.

  117. #117 Sid Offit
    January 31, 2012

    Currently, based on my circumstances,there are no vaccines I’d get for myself or give to a child.

    JGC
    Tell us about these epidemiological studies comparing vaccinated and unvaccinanted children. I’d be interested in looking at them

    You have about 20 pertussis deaths a year in the USA (pop. ~300,000,000) so a few cases in a couple of high schools are almost certain not to result in death. Parents worried can get vaccinated themselves since most transmission comes from parents or caregivers. Don’t ask high school kids to get medicated for illnesses that effectively pose no risk to them.

  118. #118 Chris
    January 31, 2012

    JGCmass:

    That’s a very real concern, given that adolescents represent a significant portion of the vector reservoir responsible for transmission of pertussis to infants under 6 months of age.

    Another concern with high school students getting the “hundred day cough” is that their education suffers. Having someone continually cough in a classroom is disruptive, and missing too many days might mean they would have to make up credits. A friend’s daughter was very ill when she was in ninth grade and had to take online courses and summer classes to recover credits.

  119. #119 JGC
    January 31, 2012

    Sorry–lost the last line to my post @112

    And about as many seniors die of pertussis as high school kids. Which is about none.

    Actually sid, 90% of the pertussis related deaths occur in infants. The remaining 10% includes seniors. Further, about 7% of hospital admissions for pneumonia are associated with pertussis infection.

  120. #120 Denice Walter
    January 31, 2012

    Well, I’d certainly like to hear more about “forced vaccination”(Mike Adams also talks about this):
    Is it done with physical force or threats? Does an officer of the court/ law hold the dissenter down, so the doctor’s/ nurse’s syringe doesn’t “miss”?
    Are the doors locked so he/ she can’t escape? Is a person who flees, tracked down and served a writ? Are there fines? Jail time? Banishment?

  121. #121 Sid Offit
    January 31, 2012

    @alison

    Yes, the babies matter to me. I care about the babies.

  122. #122 Sid Offit
    January 31, 2012

    Denice, you fail to understand the meaning of force. Here are some synonyms:

    verb. compel – coerce – constrain – oblige – push – enforce

    Are you saying there are no compulsory education laws and are you saying there are no compulsory vaccination laws. You vaccine zealots have some plausible arguments so it’s puzzling why you feel compelled to deny the most obvious realities.

  123. #123 Narad
    January 31, 2012

    More like being anti forced sober driving.

    Nah, drunken driving has criminal penalties and actual compulsion mechanisms.

  124. #124 Chris
    January 31, 2012

    Only two states do not have easy to get vaccine exemptions. And even in those states there are private schools and home schooling.

    Though, there are always those who actually lie on required immunization forms.

  125. #125 lilady
    January 31, 2012

    @ Offit: So glad that your education “didn’t suffer” when you were sick during your early years. We are so impressed with your posts here and your “expertise” in fire science. Were you valedictorian or the anchor man, when you received your degree from a fourth tier college?

    “Nancy Snyderman says the flu will put you out of commission for three weeks. As a kid I would have paid big money for a flu that would have gotten me out of school for three weeks.”

    (Offal’s Facebook Page January 26, 2012)

  126. #126 Narad
    January 31, 2012

    Are you saying there are no compulsory education laws and are you saying there are no compulsory vaccination laws.

    You’re free to homeschool. There are no “compulsory vaccination laws.” There are mandatory vaccination laws.

  127. #127 Chris
    January 31, 2012

    Funny, my comment is listed on the side of the page, but it is missing.

    I’ll try again: There are only two states that do not allow easy vaccine exemptions. But they both have private schools and home schooling.

    Since I had to restrict my son’s contacts when he was a baby who could not be vaccinated from pertussis when our county was having an outbreak (thanks to Barbara Loe Fisher): I am not sympathetic to those who ignore public health.

  128. #128 Science Mom
    January 31, 2012

    I’m anti-forced vaccination, not anti-vaccination.

    Vaccines are not forced and if you meant compulsory or obliged or pushed you should have said so; forced has a specific connotation. There are also non-medical exemptions for 48 states in the U.S. and vaccines are not compulsory in most other countries, you know those other places that aren’t Amurka? So just wave your anti-vaxx freak flag high and proud Bob, you aren’t kidding anyone.

  129. #129 Agashem
    January 31, 2012

    So no vaccines will be given to Sidiot’s kids. So no travel outside of whatever little slice of heaven he’s in. Sad really, because my kids learned many things when we travelled to Egypt but we were vaccinated before we left (that is vaccinated against those more exotic diseases, for a Canadian family).

  130. #130 Chris
    January 31, 2012

    Oh, my comment did appear!

    Oh, the odds a private school closes due to a disease outbreak has “Waldorf” in its name are very high. Of course I am baffled at why someone thinks kids need to get sick instead of preventing misery.

  131. #131 JGC
    January 31, 2012

    Sid @106

    I’m anti-forced vaccination, not anti-vaccination.

    That’s like being anti-forced sober driving rather than being anti drunk-driving, isn’t it?

    “As to safety, it’s more a question of whether the vaccine is needed in the first place.”

    If we wish to minimize worldwide suffering and reduce deaths caused by vaccine preventable illness, yes: they are necessary.

    As you know ALL medical treatments carry risks. Besides, there are a host of safe products that provide little value.

    Vaccines however, are not part of that subset–they are perhaps the single most cost effective weapon in today’s public health arsenal. How exactly do you think global eradication of smallpox was achieved?

    I thought you were going to address the safety of the flu-shot, but instead you’re telling me you personally don’t fear the flu? that, and that the possibility of “slightest pain or flu-like symptoms” is enough to make you choose to put others–those too young to be immunized or who for medical reasons are not candidates for immunization–at risk. (This might be a whole new anti-vax trope–the “I’m too much of a wimp to consider I have an ethical responsibility to others”)

    In addition the recommendation to get one every year (for 50 years?) requires one to embark on a journey who’s effects have never been studied.

    The safety and efficacy of vaccines in general, and the flu vaccines particular, has been extensively studied, sid. Claiming otherwise does nothing to make that body of observations go away

  132. #132 ebohlman
    January 31, 2012

    Slightly OT but good news: US Rep Dan Burton (R-IN) has decided not to run for re-election this year. Burton was responsible for anti-vax groups gaining more credibility than they deserved, often hosting hearings on the supposed vaccine-autism connection. I guess he’ll never get a chance to use the House gym (he said he wouldn’t use it as long as Barney Frank was in the House; Frank is also retiring this year).

  133. #133 Narad
    January 31, 2012

    (Ironic, really, that “alternative” medicine is named as such)

    Not really, but the remark is.

  134. #134 Chris
    January 31, 2012

    Okay, Tamara, you have given us a study with a sample size of one. Now to make your study actually useful, please increase the samples to something much bigger, like ten thousand.

    Plus, your child was protected by the herd immunity from the Dominican Republic’s fairly high vaccination rate. Don’t think that just because you went to a country that speaks another language that they don’t have decent public health programs.

  135. #135 JGC
    January 31, 2012

    Ironic, really, that “alternative” medicine is named as such

    As opposed to “Medicine that has either not been proven to work or medicine has been proven NOT to work”? I agree.

  136. #136 Hinterlander
    January 31, 2012

    @lilady

    You, Chris, DW & Alison (among others) are such a refreshing change from the many Warrior Moms/Mums I encountered through my pregnancy, antenatal groups and now playcentre. Unfortunately one of these is my own mum, so this blog has become a haven for my sanity. Keep fighting the good fight and continue ignoring posts from the offal troll.

  137. #137 lilady
    January 31, 2012

    @ Tamara: Just because your baby scored “a perfect 10″ when she was born has absolutely no impact for her risks of acquiring diseases that are vaccine-preventable.

    The CDC recommends at least 1 MMR shot for babies age 6 months and older prior to international travel. There is travel advisory issued December 15, 2011, by the CDC for travelers to the Dominican Republican, due to a cholera outbreak. There are also cases of malaria and dengue fever reported by the Dominican Republic health authorities.

    You do know, don’t you, that your child has no maternal antibodies to these diseases. If you had consulted a real doctor or made an appointment for a travel clinic consultation, you would not have put yourself and your child at risk.

  138. #138 alison
    January 31, 2012

    Sid @120: Yes, the babies matter to me. I care about the babies
    ORLY? When we know that babies die from pertussis? And you continue to oppose vaccination? Sorry but I don’t buy it.

    Hinterlander – thank you! Hugs.

  139. #139 TBruce
    January 31, 2012

    I’m anti-forced vaccination, not anti-vaccination.

    Currently, based on my circumstances,there are no vaccines I’d get for myself or give to a child.

    I won’t call you a liar, but I’m awfully tempted.

  140. #140 Phila
    January 31, 2012

    Don’t ask high school kids to get medicated for illnesses that effectively pose no risk to them.

    No risk except for, y’know, the risk of an unpleasant illness that will interfere dramatically with their school work, social activities, hobbies and sports, sleeping, eating, etc. etc.

    It’s kinda funny how hard the “informed consent” folks labor to mislead people about what a disease like pertussis actually entails. Seems like if the facts were actually on their side, it wouldn’t be necessary.

  141. #141 Chris
    January 31, 2012

    Thank you, Hinterlander.

  142. #142 Chris
    January 31, 2012

    ebohlman:

    Burton was responsible for anti-vax groups gaining more credibility than they deserved, often hosting hearings on the supposed vaccine-autism connection.

    You might be interested in this article: Mother Jones: Rep. Dan Burton’s Legacy: Lots of Sick Kids.

  143. #143 Sid Offit
    January 31, 2012

    @baglady

    My fire science background tells me your dementia is accelerating.
    —————-

    I won’t call you a liar, but I’m awfully tempted.

    Why’s that TBruce?
    —————-
    @Chris
    Forced vax applies to private schools as well. : (
    —————-
    @Narad

    There are no “compulsory vaccination laws.” There are mandatory vaccination laws.

    That’s brilliant. You do know mandatory and compulsory are synonyms???????
    ————————–
    @Science Mom, another synonym for the above is “forced.” Look it up.

  144. #144 dedicated lurker
    January 31, 2012

    So Sid isn’t anti-vaccine, but he’d never get one. Even if a bat bit him, presumably.

    I’m curious how this is not “anti-vaccine.” Is he saying this because there’s some theoretical vaccine he’d support?

  145. #145 lilady
    January 31, 2012

    @ ebohlman: That is GREAT news that we will be seeing the last of Dan Burton. I will be looking forward to seeing Barney Frank on the Sunday A.M. TV news shows…I love his commentary.

    @ hinterlander…and your comments are terrific as well. I hate “warrior moms” who indulge in scaring pregnant women and new mothers.

  146. #146 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    Offal: How is your budding radio career…any “bookings” lately? My science and nursing background tells me you are a fool and out of your league, here.

  147. #147 Sid Offit
    February 1, 2012

    Currently, based on my circumstances,there are no vaccines I’d get for myself or give to a child.

    So Sid isn’t anti-vaccine, but he’d never get one. Even if a bat bit him, presumably

    I never said never (see above) I said, “currently, based on my circumstances.” And I have not, as far as I know not been bitten by a bat.

  148. #148 Narad
    February 1, 2012

    That’s brilliant. You do know mandatory and compulsory are synonyms???????

    I’m not playing thesaurus. You’re trying to use a prescriptive sense and embed it in a descriptive fog to MIRV the payload.

  149. #149 stewartt1982
    February 1, 2012

    @Sid Offit – 116

    Currently, based on my circumstances,there are no vaccines I’d get for myself or give to a child.

    who then goes on that there are only ~20 deaths due to pertussis per years in the US.

    Of course the ironic thing is, if everyone thought like Sid and did not get their children vaccinated then the death rate due to pertussis would be much higher.

  150. #150 Chemmomo
    February 1, 2012

    Sid @141

    @Chris
    Forced vax applies to private schools as well. : (

    Aren’t you in California? Either you’re deliberately misleading people or you haven’t ever looked up the actual law.

  151. #151 Sid Offit
    February 1, 2012

    Thanks for clearing that up Chemmomo…or not:

    http://www.shotsforschool.org/immunizationlaws.html
    Under the California School Immunization Law (California Health and Safety Code, Sections 120325-120375), children are required to receive certain immunizations in order to attend public and private elementary and secondary schools, child care centers, family day care homes, nursery schools, day nurseries and developmental centers.

  152. #152 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    I hate to be a pedant, but when it comes to Offal’s awful mangling of English…

    “I never said never (see above) I said, “currently, based on my circumstances.” And I have not, as far as I know not been bitten by a bat.”

    Didn’t Offal ever learn about double negatives…in first grade?

  153. #153 Chemmomo
    February 1, 2012

    Keep reading, Sid. It’s in your own link!

    It’s called a Personal Beliefs Exemption.

    I have actually read a good chunk of California Title 17, and I have a copy of the whole PDF. Read Code tit. 17, § 6025. It applies to ALL California schools.

    Quit your whining.

  154. #154 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    @ chemmomo: And, right beneath the Personal Beliefs Exemption on Offal’s link is the *requirement for school nurses to keep a listing of all children whose parents have claimed a “Personal Belief Exemption”…so that these children are immediately exempted (yanked out of class), during a vaccine-preventable disease outbreak.

    Perhaps Offal would like to share with us his particular “Personal Belief” that he used to exempt his children from vaccine requirements.

    Also Offal, you might have to stay home and care for your kids for the duration of an outbreak. When they finally do return to school, will they be shunned by their classmates and labeled as free-riders, because their father is an idiot?

    * School nurses really do obey the regulations and they are backed up by public health regulations and the courts, if need be, to remove children who are public health risks.

  155. #155 Chemmomo
    February 1, 2012

    @lilady
    Exactly!
    The folks who want the personal beliefs exemption have free reign in California. The only recourse for the schools is to send home students with who have exemptions (medical or personal) in the event of a vaccine-preventable disease outbreak – regardless of whether the school is public or private.

    A private school is allowed to exempt vaccinations entirely, but is not allowed by state law to refuse admission of a student whose parents file the personal beliefs exemption. All they have to do is file it.

    As for Sid: he is either being deliberately obtuse, or deliberately misleading.

  156. #156 Tamara
    February 1, 2012

    Below is a kind response from a friend of mine re: why she chose not to vax her son. She puts it very humbly, sans name calling or passionate adversity for the opposing side. It’s worth the read.

    “I’m kinda surprised your so pro vaccine. I mean, I was too until I started doing some research and had babies. I didn’t even think about the safety of vaccinations until my perfect little baby boy was scheduled to be injected with 30 different strains of infections and the 100′s of different types of chemicals and toxins before his immune system was even developed. I believe there are really great scare tactics out there that pressure people into vaccinating their children for diseases and in most cases these diseases were all ready in decline before vaccinations came in to play. Our body has two branches for defending agains disease, when we inject a live vaccine into the blood stream and completely bypass this defence system and go right to the TH2 branch we face repercussions to our immune system that were not even aware of. When you get sick it shouldn’t be through your blood stream first, it should go into the nose or mouth and start fighting it there, we weaken our immune system when we don’t allow for the cold or the flu, etc. to take its course. The comment about the baby dying from the flu, there is research that indicates that SIDS can be linked to vaccinations, it’s almost as if you are saying that it’s better for their to be side effects such as, autism, asthma, allergies, cancer, SIDS, as long as the baby doesn’t get sick from the flu. (I know you’re not saying that because I know you but it’s a weird concept coming from you). I think people are afraid of getting sick, it’s inconvenient in our ultra-convenient world. We would rather ingest extremely unhealthy foods, drink abundant amounts of alcohol, over-work ourselves, then come to the realization that vaccines aren’t going to prevent disease, they don’t offer immunity (hence the booster shots that the pharmaceutical companies want you to continually have) they just stir up our immunity in an unsafe and illogical way. When doctors are trained on vaccinations guess who is doing the training? The representatives of pharma companies. Why do doctors that stand up against the use of vaccines get fired? Why do they use fetal embryos as a way to transport the diseases into babies? The sanitary conditions in the labs where these vaccines are being created are not at all what we think they are like, why? Because why would pharmaceutical companies who get paid when we get sick really want us to be healthy? They say that autism is not caused by vaccinations (even though the metals and chemicals that are being injected are going directly to the brain causing it to swell), they know for certain that it’s not but they can’t name one thing that is causing it? The level of sickness that is affecting our children is unbelievable for the level of healthcare, hygiene, access to nutritious food and technology that we all have at our fingertips. Why are our kids so sick? There are a lot of questions, there are a lot of diseases that have no answers but there is millions and millions of dollars being poured into trying to find a cure? I guess I’m just having a hard time buying that pharma companies have our best interest at heart, maybe they did, but not anymore. What’s amazing about our own body is it’s ability to heal itself, it’s beautiful. Had I gotten the measles or mumps as a child I would have been able to pass on those lovely antibodies (which would have made me immune for life!) unto my children through breast milk for the crucial parts of their life (the first two years) to make sure that they would not get theses diseases when they are young and their immune system is compromised. No extra unknown chemicals, no minor to extremely severe side effects. Ok, I’m going to stop, there’s more I could say but I’m tired now. It’s exhausting Jas and it’s infuriating that because I’m doing what I think is best for my kids and because it is not the norm people actually think that I’m doing a disservice to their well being. (I know you don’t think that).”

  157. #157 Tamara
    February 1, 2012

    Figured as much. Thanks everyone for effectively wasting your time. I’m glad I got to be part of it. Continue drinking and driving :) Bon voyage!

  158. #158 Tamara
    February 1, 2012

    If you had an ounce of critical thought you would take some of the information found on this PRO-VAX website, research it independently and form your own conclusions. I’ve formed mine, none of you will sway that. I’m not attempting to sway yours, merely advocating for the use of critical thought and alternative research. All the best!

    http://www.vaccinateyourbaby.org/about/ingredients.cfm

  159. #159 Tamara
    February 1, 2012

    Oops, I didn’t realise you’d all have such a hard time with that one. If you’d allow it, this article might be able to show you how to begin to think critically. Again, all the best!

    http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/back-to-basics/how-are-vaccines-evaluated-for-safety/

  160. #160 Tamara
    February 1, 2012

    eep, I just have to post this one. I didn’t earlier because it really doesn’t directly relate to vaccinations, but it might be helpful for someone somewhere that has an open mind about what’s really going on in ours, and thus our children’s’, systems. Irrelevant, yes. Then again so is driving drunk.

  161. #162 Marry Me, Mindy
    February 1, 2012

    Travelled safe and sound with my 100% non-vax 12 month old to the Dominican Republic :)

    Meanwhile, I drove home safe and sound from the bar last night, drunker than a monkey.

    I guess that means that drunk driving laws are silly.

    It makes as much sense as Tamara’s claim.

  162. #163 Denice Walter
    February 1, 2012

    @ hinterlander: Thank you for your kind words- I should clear up one thing: I have no children- Oops, I guess I shouldn’t have mentioned that because in some quarters, it would mean that I really should’t have an opinion or that I *really* wouldn’t understand- yes, we’re all either vain, selfish, work-aholics or gay/ lesbian! And those people have *no* concern for others or so I’m told.

    @ Chemomo: Yes, California! One of our commenters, Pareidolius, lives in Sonoma and has linked to CA data on vaccination rates by county; while it has great wine and vistas, Sonoma had rather abysmal rates of vaccination as did other counties. You know, post-AJW, I do recall hearing about pockets of low vaccination rates springing up all over the western world- somehow these parents evaded VaxControl agents, even in London, NY and CA! Some parents of vax-free children even comment here @ RI.

  163. #164 Alias123
    February 1, 2012

    Th1Th2 is not hinting at Thing1Thing2 you numbskulls. Familiarize yourselves with the science of immune response! All of you scientists, surgeons and PhD holders – come on, where is your wealth of information? I’ll keep checking back just to see Th1Th2′s witty one-liners (and watch frivolously as you waste your time trying to rip each and every non-followers response to shreds).

  164. #165 JGC
    February 1, 2012

    “And I have not, as far as I know not been bitten by a bat.”

    So tell us, then: if your circumstances changed and you were bitten by a bat would you choose to receive the rabies vaccine?

  165. #166 Denice Walter
    February 1, 2012

    More anti-vax folly:

    @ AoA, today: both Jake and John continue in their games of musical shills, “tag-you’re-IT” and pin-the-accusation-on- whomsoever-you-choose.

  166. #167 Ren
    February 1, 2012

    30 different strains of infections and 100′s of different types of chemicals and toxins?

    Stop right there. Read no more. Let’s have Tamara list for us the 30 different strains of “infections” and at least 100 different types of chemicals and toxins.

    Ball’s in your court, Tamara. Remember, one of the big rules around here is that your assertions must come with evidence. And don’t try to give us your redacted version of the truth, like Sid did up there.

    Here’s my count, try to keep up, Tamara:
    1. Hep B
    2. Rotavirus
    3. Diphtheria
    4. Tetanus
    5. Pertussis
    6. Haemophilus influenzae type b
    7. Pneumococcus
    8. Poliovirus (inactivated)
    9. Influenza
    10. Measles
    11. Mumps
    12. Rubella
    13. Varicella
    14. Hep A
    15. Meningococcus

    Optional, though it shouldn’t be:

    16. Human papillomavirus

    If you work with sheeps, goats, or cows, are serving in the military, or are doing research:

    17. Anthrax
    18. Vaccinia (for Smallpox)

    Oh, I know. You’re going to claim that each flu shot, because the flu mutates each winter, constitutes a different strain, right? Right?

    Right.

    Or, because some vaccines need to be in a series to elicit the best immune response to them, you’re going to count them individually. Go ahead and shift them goalposts.

    Shift them good.

  167. #168 TBruce
    February 1, 2012

    It’s worth the read.

    No, it’s not. It’s a spew of the usual antivax lies, expressed in an overwrought stream-of-consciousness mess.

  168. #169 Science Mom
    February 1, 2012

    Wow Tamara, your friend should visualise paragraphs and stop with the DIY “research” because she’s frankly, an idiot who spouted so many falsehoods, it would take a blogpost length comment to point them all out.

  169. #170 Mu
    February 1, 2012

    Guess you got lucky twice Tamara, not only with the risky travel but also the home birth
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2094348/Caroline-Lovell-Home-birth-advocate-dies-delivering-baby-daughter-home.html
    What are you going to do for the three-peat, pox party?

  170. #171 Sauceress
    February 1, 2012

    @#160
    ~”injected with 30 different strains of infections and the 100′s of different types of chemicals and toxins before his immune system was even developed.”~

    ~”these diseases were all ready in decline before vaccinations came in to play”~

    ~”when we inject a live vaccine into the blood stream”~

    ~”vaccines aren’t going to prevent disease, they don’t offer immunity (hence the booster shots that the pharmaceutical companies want you to continually have)”~

    ~”Why do they use fetal embryos as a way to transport the diseases into babies?”~

    ~”When doctors are trained on vaccinations guess who is doing the training? The representatives of pharma companies.”~

    BINGO!!

  171. #172 Krebiozen
    February 1, 2012

    Travelled safe and sound with my 100% non-vax 12 month old to the Dominican Republic :)

    You were extremely irresponsible and very lucky. I do hope you used a mosquito net for the child, and didn’t rely on homeopathic malaria remedies. Putting a child at such a large unnecessary risk horrifies me as much as if you were bragging that you were driving drunk with your child in the car. You may think you can’t compare the two situations, but consider this. A drunk driver is about 700 times more likely to be fatally injured in an accident than a sober driver. A child who gets measles is at least 1000 (very probably more) times more likely to suffer serious consequences than a child who is vaccinated against measles.

    That’s just measles! Your child was also at risk of contracting typhoid, cholera (as lilady pointed out there’s an outbreak affecting thousands there currently), hepatitis A and B, diphtheria, pertussis and several other nasty but easily preventable diseases.

    People like you have deluded themselves into believing that their ability to remain unvaccinated and uninfected by life-threatening diseases is because of their diet, or the magic alternative medicine they use. It’s not, it’s because of herd immunity from other people who vaccinate. It’s often when traveling to countries where these diseases are still endemic that people get a horrible reality check. It’s bad enough when an adult gets sick through taking foolish risks, but gambling with your child’s health and life like that, and then encouraging others to do the same just sickens me.

    I don’t know about the USA but in the UK there has been a big rise in the number of people picking up vaccine preventable diseases abroad. There are about 500 cases of typhoid a year in the UK, mostly picked up in the Indian subcontinent, 20 cases of cholera, 9000 cases of TB (with about 300 deaths). We also see 1-2 thousand cases of malaria, resulting in 10-20 deaths every year. Most of these people also thought they were immune to these diseases, and didn’t need to take measures to protect themselves.

  172. #173 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    @ Tamara: Get yourself a new “friend”…someone who actually has knowledge of the immune system and the diseases that vaccines prevent. From your “friend”:

    “I didn’t even think about the safety of vaccinations until my perfect little baby boy was scheduled to be injected with 30 different strains of infections and the 100′s of different types of chemicals and toxins before his immune system was even developed.”

    Care to name the “30 different strains of infections” and the “100′s of different chemical and toxins”, Tamara?

    “Our body has two branches for defending agains disease, when we inject a live vaccine into the blood stream and completely bypass this defence system and go right to the TH2 branch we face repercussions to our immune system that were not even aware of. When you get sick it shouldn’t be through your blood stream first, it should go into the nose or mouth and start fighting it there, we weaken our immune system when we don’t allow for the cold or the flu, etc. to take its course. The comment about the baby dying from the flu, there is research that indicates that SIDS can be linked to vaccinations, it’s almost as if you are saying that it’s better for their to be side effects such as, autism, asthma, allergies, cancer, SIDS, as long as the baby doesn’t get sick from the flu.”

    Which vaccines are directly administered into the bloodstream, Tamara?

    Which virus or bacterium “sickness” “should infect the nose or mouth first, Tamara? Tell us how vertical transmission of the hepatitis B virus occurs, Tamara.

    Tell us Tamara about the research you found that states SIDS is caused by childhood immunizations. Citations please, linking SIDS, autism, asthma or cancer to any immunization.

    “Had I gotten the measles or mumps as a child I would have been able to pass on those lovely antibodies (which would have made me immune for life!) unto my children through breast milk for the crucial parts of their life (the first two years) to make sure that they would not get theses diseases when they are young and their immune system is compromised.”

    Citations please, to back up your “friends” statement about the protective immunity conferred by breast milk from a mother who actually had measles and mumps.

    Which website did you get this copy pasta from, Tamara?

  173. #174 Ren
    February 1, 2012

    Who else kept saying “goodbye” but kept coming back for more? I wonder if Tamara is a sock-puppet or sock-puppet-like?

    Oh, and the link, Tamara, it doesn’t even get close to a hundred “toxins”, as you call them.

  174. #175 Gray Falcon
    February 1, 2012

    Clearly, Tamara, you didn’t bother reading that page. Now, why should we trust you, when it’s clear you have no concern for the truth?

  175. #176 stewartt1982
    February 1, 2012

    @169 – Tamara

    Did you read the “PRO-VAX” link you attached?

    1) nothing near the list of 100 toxins you mention.

    2) they go on to explain why the small amounts of these substances are relatively safe in very simple terms.

  176. #177 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    Here’s my count, try to keep up,

    And here’s my count, 36 in two years.

    h_ttp://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/antivaccine-propaganda-in-baltimore-sun/#comment-70803

  177. #178 Thom Denick
    February 1, 2012

    Tamara is using uncommonly similar language to Allen’s earlier in this thread before he “stormed off” twice. (And Tamara makes it three in one thread!)

    Tamara: “I’m not attempting to sway yours, merely advocating for the use of critical thought and alternative research.”

    Allen: “I refuse to continue any futile attempts at potentially swaying someones opinion or, at best, hoping that they develop some critical thought. ”

    Tamara: “sans name calling or passionate adversity”

    Allen/Pro-Choice: “No, it seems that outright attacks and name-calling deter people from having a civil open discussion about such finicky topics. ”

    Tamara: “…form your own conclusions. I’ve formed mine, none of you will sway that.”

    Allen: ” It is my personal opinion (no sense trying to sway that) ”

    My guess? Allen went to work or the library to change his IP address. You sir, are an exemplar for your cause.

    Allen, if there’s no point in trying to sway us, why do you consistently ignore tough questions asking for evidence of your assertions, and come back to this thread every 3 hours with some new unrelated anecdotal evidence?

  178. #179 Ren
    February 1, 2012

    Lloyd, I’m only going to reply to you once today. It’s basic English comprehension. Check it:

    “30 different strains of infections.” There, did you see it? I bolded it for you. One more time…

    “30 DIFFERENT strains of infections.” I bolded and CAPITALIZED it for your this time.

    You’re counting the same (which is opposite of different) strains. Or, as I wrote Tamara, “because some vaccines need to be in a series to elicit the best immune response to them, you’re going to count them individually. Go ahead and shift them goalposts.”

    Shift away, Lloyd. Shift it good.

  179. #180 Marry Me, Mindy
    February 1, 2012

    You know, Tamara, maybe instead of just posting random links and saying “read this,” you might actually provide a short summary of what parts of that link support your claims. That way, we will not have such a hard time understanding your point.

  180. #181 Gray Falcon
    February 1, 2012

    Tamara, no amount of open-mindedness can change deliberate falsehood into truth. You lied about the contents of your link in #169. Why should we trust you?

  181. #182 nastylittlehorse
    February 1, 2012

    It’s funny how often anti-vax folk spout off about the closed minds of others, yet won’t listen to any evidence that they’re wrong.

    It’s almost as if they’ve made up their minds, regardless of what’s real, and closed them off somehow.

    But that couldn’t be it, surely? Because that would be the rankest hypocrisy, and surely that can’t be right.

    By the way, Tamara, if that is your real name, you’re a terrible mother and you’re putting your children at risk of serious disease. I hope for their sake that the vaccinations everyone else is getting keep your children healthy, because it’s clearly more important to you to be ‘right’ about something you’re very wrong about than it is to consider them.

  182. #183 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    @ Tamara: How did you research the information you found on the website you linked? Your “friend’s” statement is full of fallacies. (see my posting above)

  183. #184 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    “because some vaccines need to be in a series to elicit the best immune response to them, you’re going to count them individually. Go ahead and shift them goalposts.”

    Not shifting the goalposts. You are just stupid because some vaccines require repeated subclinical booster reinfections. Hence, 36 is the total amount of exposures to some 14 diseases given to a child in a span of only two years.

    You see I am on a different level.

  184. #185 Todd W.
    February 1, 2012

    Wow. I get busy for a little bit and someone posts a wall-o-text full of nonsense.

    Tamara, others have already address many of the myths you posted, but you might also want to pay a visit to AntiAntiVax to see some of the things you’ve been told are, in fact, wrong and why.

    And if you don’t believe the things you read there, there are handy links to original sources, as well as to other web sites that provide science-based information, rather than myth-based.

  185. #186 @ScienceMonger
    February 1, 2012

    While we’re all blindly following science, that must make the big bang theory unbelievably believable. Remember when science said the world was flat? Ohhh or maybe I’m just a sock puppet waiting to be blocked/deleted because of my unruly…. sock puppetness? How about all of the puppets on strings on this blog…………….

  186. #187 Chris
    February 1, 2012

    Tamara, exactly which vaccine is injected into the bloodstream?

    Ah, yes, you linked to a site that is notorious for cherry picking, insidevaccines. We have even seen where they take a quote from a paper and actually remove words to make it say something else. That is called lying.

    Now, Tamara, it is up to you to give us the actual evidence that vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases. Though do not post websites, post the actual research papers. Show us exactly that you know what you are trying to tell us.

  187. #188 dedicated lurker
    February 1, 2012

    You see I am on a different level.

    You most certainly are Thingy. A very special level. *nods sagely*

  188. #189 Science Mom
    February 1, 2012

    @169 – Tamara

    Did you read the “PRO-VAX” link you attached?

    1) nothing near the list of 100 toxins you mention.

    2) they go on to explain why the small amounts of these substances are relatively safe in very simple terms.

    But Stewart, she’s using alternative research to come to her own conclusion.

    I didn’t earlier because it really doesn’t directly relate to vaccinations, but it might be helpful for someone somewhere that has an open mind about what’s really going on in ours, and thus our children’s’, systems.

    @ Tamara, I don’t suppose it has occurred to you that a fair number of us are PhD scientists and physicians and not ditzy MDC warriors like yourself.

  189. #190 Phila
    February 1, 2012

    Because why would pharmaceutical companies who get paid when we get sick really want us to be healthy?

    It’s amazing that anyone goes into the extraction industries given that vaccination is clearly the most lucrative racket on Earth. I mean, intensive care, mechanical ventilation and antivirals are all well and good, but if you want to earn real money in the medical field, you’ve gotta trick the elderly into getting a flu shot.

    Also, too, fluoride’s only in the water because Big Dental gets paid when kids have cavities.

  190. #191 Orac
    February 1, 2012

    Tamara/Pro-Choice/Allen: You’ve been warned about using sock puppets. Just because I haven’t noticed until now doesn’t mean I didn’t mean it when I said you’d be banned if you kept it up. You ignored my warning and morphed into “Tamara,” even though I let you keep posting when you stuck with a single pseudonym. Your actions leave me little choice but to ban you and delete all your “Tamara” posts.

    Goodbye and good riddance.

  191. #192 Krebiozen
    February 1, 2012

    Tamara,
    Gut and Psychology Syndrome? Natasha Campbell-McBride? Not just irrelevant but plain wrong. You might do a search for her name on this blog. McBride runs a clinic out of her front room in a village east of Cambridge, but calls it the Cambridge Nutrition Clinic to mislead people into thinking she is associated with Cambridge University. I once started using my critical thinking abilities by fact-checking a talk she gave that is on YouTube but gave up after finding so many demonstrably inaccurate statements in the first five minutes that I concluded she is clearly a crank of the first order.

    If you had an ounce of critical thought you would take some of the information found on this PRO-VAX website, research it independently and form your own conclusions.

    You really should follow your own advice. Did you not read the part on the one relibale website you linked to that says:

    Recently a small group of very vocal but misinformed individuals have made accusations regarding the safety of vaccines, claiming that vaccines contain a laundry list of toxins. In many instances these allegations are completely incorrect. In others, the claims are taken out of context.

    The anti-vaccination sources you keep referring to are not independent, and in most cases a little critical thought and independent research rapidly demonstrate that they are repeating lies. I suggest you do a little research on the amount of formaldehyde the human body produces, and compare it with the largest amount you can find in any vaccine. Then compare that with the nonsense about formaldehyde endlessly repeated on anti-vaccination websites, despite people like me politely informing them they have it wrong.

  192. #193 novalox
    February 1, 2012

    @Ren

    Guess you were right about the sock puppet.

    At least he/she/it was mildly entertaining, just by the stupidity and lies he/she/it spat out….

  193. #194 Phila
    February 1, 2012

    Tamara:

    http://www.westonaprice.org/childrens-health/gaps

    The Weston A. Price Foundation? Aren’t they that snake pit of neo-paleolithic dietary misinformation that promises the credulous “perfect physical form” and “perfect health” provided they eat plenty of meat and cholesterol and shun pasteurized milk as the work of the Devil?

    There used to be an alt-med radio show in the SF Bay Area that constantly had Sally Fallon on as a guest. Frankly, she struck me as an absolute lunatic (especially on the subject of vegetarianism, which she seems to take even more personally than Ted Nugent does).

    I think given your kids a DPT shot is a lot less dangerous than feeding them on raw milk. But then, my intellectual life doesn’t revolve around the amateur anthropological musings of an early 20th-century dentist, so what the hell do I know?

  194. #195 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    Ah, yes, you linked to a site that is notorious for cherry picking, insidevaccines. We have even seen where they take a quote from a paper and actually remove words to make it say something else. That is called lying.

    Alright, let’s see where this quote came from.

    The vaccine is injected into the blood stream.

    Lying eh?

  195. #196 Ren
    February 1, 2012

    @novalox

    I call them like I see them. The sentence structure and overall nuttiness was the same. At least when I use sock puppets try to disguise my postings because AoA seems to have a “no science allowed / we like to keep the stupid undiluted” policy when it comes to commenting, I try to change it up a bit.

    This one just kept at it with the same misinformation, and, even when warned, even when she said she’d stick to one ‘nym, continued to spew it forth and frothy.

  196. #197 Rokujolady
    February 1, 2012

    I think what pro choice is saying at 79 is that formula feeding your babies is the only way to reliably shield them from the toxins in the mother’s milk

  197. #198 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    Thingy, do you mean this paragraph from the PKIDs website?:

    “A vaccine causes a similar immune response. It is made from an antigen (a foreign substance that the body’s immune system identifies as potentially harmful) from the chickenpox virus. The vaccine is injected into the blood stream. The memory B cells in the blood stream respond to the antigen by producing antibodies. As happens after an actual infection, the memory B cells remain ready to mount a quick protective immune response against subsequent infection by the chickenpox virus.”

    Only a disease promoting ignorant troll would pick up on this paragraph.

    Tell us Thingy…being that you are a licensed health care provider, and have experience in the health care system and in the hospital where you work…just how is the chicken pox vaccine administered. You have three choices here:

    -Intramuscular
    -Subcutaneous
    -Intravenous

  198. #199 Ren
    February 1, 2012

    @Alias123 (Yet another sock-puppet, notice the use of “scientists, surgeons and PhD holders” just like the previous sock puppet did.)

    Lloyd is hinting at the Th1/Th2 balance or imbalance that is alleged with vaccines. But let’s see what science has to say:

    Many researchers regard allergy as a Th2 weighted imbalance, and recently immunologists have been investigating ways to redirect allergic Th2 responses in favour of Th1 responses to try to reduce the incidence of atopy. Some groups have been looking at using high dose exposure to allergen to drive up the Th1 response in established disease,1 and other groups have been studying the use of mycobacterial vaccines in an attempt to drive a stronger Th1 response in early life.2

    Later in the paper…

    Some people have suggested that immunisation programmes (and the subsequent reduction in microbiological exposure) are responsible for the increasing incidence of atopy. There is, however, no evidence that immunisation causes atopy. Moreover, this is not an argument that we should be exposing children to potentially fatal diseases again. If experiencing native diseases reduces the incidence of atopy, then the task of immunologists must be to develop vaccines that mimic the positive effects of infection.

    I’ll highlight the important part for you, see if you agree:

    “Moreover, this is not an argument that we should be exposing children to potentially fatal diseases again.”

    So, should we be exposing children to potentially fatal diseases again just to bring your alleged imbalance into balance?

    (And, trust me, Lloyd knows about imbalance.)

  199. #200 W. Kevin Vicklund
    February 1, 2012

    I have sent an email to PKIDs noting the error and suggesting a more accurate phrasing.

  200. #201 TBruce
    February 1, 2012

    I’ll keep checking back just to see Th1Th2′s witty one-liners

    Witty? I’ll grant that you’re half right.

  201. #202 W. Kevin Vicklund
    February 1, 2012

    And PKIDs has already edited the paragraph:

    A vaccine causes a similar immune response. It is made from an antigen (a foreign substance that the body’s immune system identifies as potentially harmful) from the chickenpox virus. The vaccine is injected into the fatty tissue. Memory B cells respond to the antigen by producing antibodies. As happens after an actual infection, the memory B cells remain ready to mount a quick protective immune response against subsequent infection by the chickenpox virus.

    Not the wording I suggested, but a much better statement overall. Thanks, Th1Th2, for pointing out the error!

  202. #203 herr doktor bimler
    February 1, 2012

    I didn’t even think about the safety of vaccinations until …

    Judging from the literary style, Pro-Choice’s “dear friend” was previously employed writing Letters to the Editor for Penthouse.

  203. #204 Sid Offit
    February 1, 2012

    @baglady

    When they finally do return to school, will they be shunned by their classmates and labeled as free-riders

    That’s funny. As if high school kids shared the pertussis obsession that drives public health do-gooders. And the free rider argument? That resonates with collectivists, not kids.

  204. #205 Sid Offit
    February 1, 2012

    @Chemmomo

    Yes, you can use an exemption to escape the force – if you know exemptions are available. That does not change the fact that laws forcing kids to get vaxed to go to school exist in all states. If you believe there is no coercion behind these laws, do you support their repeal?

  205. #206 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    @ Offal…you didn’t share with us what *”Personal Exemption”* excuse you used, so that your children have become “free riders”.

    -”My family lives in a white-tighty world”.

    -”My kids don’t come into contact with little brown babies”.

    -”I have expertise in “fire science”.

  206. #207 Roger Kulp
    February 1, 2012

    Just curious,has any state,country,or what have you ever tried to outlaw the “religious” or “philosophical” exemptions for vaccines?If they did,how far did that go?

  207. #208 Science Mom
    February 1, 2012

    That does not change the fact that laws forcing kids to get vaxed to go to school exist in all states.

    Your repeated use of “force” is a blatant attempt to muddy the waters. They are not forced in any way; even in states that do not have non-medical exemptions, you have the option to homeschool. Perhaps you are just pissed off because you reside in NY and had to jump through the hoops to obtain a religious exemption, or perhaps you couldn’t even do that. Is that what has your nose out of joint Bob?

  208. #209 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    Thingy, do you mean this paragraph from the PKIDs website?

    Yes I do.

    Tell us Thingy…being that you are a licensed health care provider, and have experience in the health care system and in the hospital where you work…just how is the chicken pox vaccine administered. You have three choices here:
    -Intramuscular
    -Subcutaneous
    -Intravenous

    The chicken pox vaccine is administered into the blood stream through subcutaneous route. Giving the vaccine per IV or IM is not recommended. Tell me nurse, how do you evaluate the blood glucose level of diabetics on regular insulin per SQ? What is it that you get from them?

  209. #210 Sid Offit
    February 1, 2012

    @chemmomo

    Where’d you get this from.

    A private school is allowed to exempt vaccinations entirely.

    The laws applies to pvt as well as public schools in Cali.

    And if I need an exemption, what is it an exemption to. Being forced to vaccinate.
    ————————-
    @baglady

    The last time we used the, “I don’t want to be injected with three vaccines to possibly prevent a mild cough” exemption.

  210. #211 Chemmomo
    February 1, 2012

    Sid, the law provides exemptions. That’s not coercion. If you live in state without those exemptions, then you can complain if you want to. But that is not California.

  211. #212 Chemmomo
    February 1, 2012

    Sid,
    the schools are required to track immunization status and exemptions. They’re not required to enforce vaccination policies. This is why there are websites that track immunization coverage at schools which show certain private and charter schools with very low immunization rates.

    I see you’re ignoring the part of my statement which tells you NO school, public or private, can refuse admission to students who have the PBE on file. Why is that?

  212. #213 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012
    A vaccine causes a similar immune response. It is made from an antigen (a foreign substance that the body’s immune system identifies as potentially harmful) from the chickenpox virus. The vaccine is injected into the fatty tissue. Memory B cells respond to the antigen by producing antibodies. As happens after an actual infection, the memory B cells remain ready to mount a quick protective immune response against subsequent infection by the chickenpox virus.

    Not the wording I suggested, but a much better statement overall. Thanks, Th1Th2, for pointing out the error!

    Did you know that you just made them look stupid with that revision? Circulating memory B cells don’t respond to the antigen in the fatty tissues. Heck, they don’t even circulate in the fatty tissues.

  213. #214 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    “The last time we used the, “I don’t want to be injected with three vaccines to possibly prevent a mild cough” exemption.

    Oh, I would have imagined you used the “My kids don’t come into contact with little brown babies” “Personal Exemption” excuse:

    “…But when we step outside of the world of fantasy and into the one of reality we find it’s The Enclaves of Affluence thesis that disintegrates. Here’s why:

    The brunt of the epidemic was borne, not by the affluent, but by Hispanic Americans, a group whose median income is about half that of non-hispanic whites. According to ABC News

    Three-quarters of hospitalizations occurred in infants younger than 6 months, and of those, three-quarters were Hispanic

    And nine of the ten deaths in California were in Hispanic children. This even though the group comprises only 37% of the state’s population….”

    Source: Sid Offal’s blog “AC Mnookin 5150″ January 6, 2011

  214. #215 Sid Offit
    February 1, 2012

    Scimom

    The home school argument is absurd. Let’s say I don’t want to home school. I live in a state where I can’t escape the FORCE with a PB exemption. I want to send my child to a private school and I don’t want to vaccinate. The government will FORCE me to home school or FORCE me to vaccinate. And don’t bring up the religious exemption, because most people who don’t want vaccines don’t tie it to religion. Just admit the government forces this stuff on people.

  215. #216 Narad
    February 1, 2012

    There’s nothing more pathetic than a whiny “libertarian,” Bob.

  216. #217 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    Stick around Offal…I have a comment stuck in moderation.

  217. #218 Gray Falcon
    February 1, 2012

    Sid, which is more important to you: Your personal convenience, or other people’s lives?

  218. #219 Narad
    February 1, 2012

    The home school argument is absurd. Let’s say I don’t want to home school. I live in a state where I can’t escape the FORCE with a PB exemption. I want to send my child to a private school and I don’t want to vaccinate.

    Yup: But I don’t WAAAANT to homeschool! Gimme what I WAAAANT! Nownownownow! Right here, I want it HERE! Bring me what I WAAAANT! Nownownownownownownow!!!

  219. #220 Sid Offit
    February 1, 2012

    Chemmomo

    This is from Cali website:
    To enter or transfer into public and PRIVATE elementary and secondary schools (grades kindergarten through 12), children under age 18 years MUST have immunizations as outlined below. New 7th grade entry requirements went into effect 7/1/99. A varicella requirement for kindergarten entry will go into effect 7/1/01.

    You say:
    the schools are required to track immunization status and exemptions. They’re not required to enforce vaccination policies.

    I don’t even know what point you are trying to make. Read the law above. Look closely at this part:

    “must have immunizations”

    Where do you get the idea private schools are treated differently. And again, since, according to you, vaccine laws have no power, do you support their abolition???

    And here’s a nice little PH video saying you need vaccinations to go to school. Somehow they left out the exemption part. How odd.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3qUpGIwanyo

  220. #221 Sid Offit
    February 1, 2012

    False dichotomy, Falcon.

    There’s nothing more pathetic than a collectivist who needs the security of being told what to do by experts and officials, Narad.

  221. #222 Gray Falcon
    February 1, 2012

    Not a false dichotomy, that’s basically what you’ve been demanding.

  222. #223 Narad
    February 1, 2012

    There’s nothing more pathetic than a collectivist who needs the security of being told what to do by experts and officials, Narad.

    If your position is that nobody else gets to tell you what to do, then nobody else is required to cater to your whims, so quit sniveling.

  223. #224 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    I’ve just been to Offal’s Facebook page. It seems that he has been in touch with Tamara Ugo who has been practicing her sock puppetry here under various names and who has had the ban hammer finally applied to her.

    Here is Offal’s reply to her about his posts on Respectful Insolence:

    “The Vaccine Machine Yes, I agree. It is pointless to expect one can change any minds over there. They’re too emotionally invested in the issue. I do it to refine my positions and practice defending them.”

    How many years has Offal been “refining (his) positions” and “practicing defending them”?

    Poor Offal, cannot even pass “Remedial Refining Positions/Defending Them” classes. He’s still out of his league, here.

  224. #225 Chemmomo
    February 1, 2012

    Sid,
    I don’t have time to find a link for you right now and probably won’t until next week. Look up the section I posted last night: Cal. Admin. Code tit. 17, § 6025.

    A student “who has documented a permanent medical exemption or a personal beliefs exemption to immunization in accordance with Section 6051, shall be admitted unconditionally as a pupil to a given public or private elementary or secondary school, child care center, day nursery, nursery school, family day care home, or development center.”

    Note: shall be admitted unconditionally. And you’re calling that coercive?

  225. #226 Sid Offit
    February 1, 2012

    baglady, I’m glad you’re such an avid follower of the page.

  226. #227 Sid Offit
    February 1, 2012

    Chem, I’ll ask you for the third time, do you support abolishing these laws since in your mind they do nothing???

  227. #228 Chemmomo
    February 1, 2012

    Sid, one word: No.

    But I don’t support Section 6025. I’d rather see a law in place that requires consulation with a legitimate medical professional before the PBE could be granted.

    But then you’ll probably just complain that the state makes it hard.

  228. #229 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    “I’m glad you’re such an avid follower of the page.”

    Just keeping you “honest”…Offal.

  229. #230 Sid Offit
    February 1, 2012

    Why do you support a law the has no power, Chemmomo?

  230. #231 Chemmomo
    February 1, 2012

    Sid, I’m not here to discuss politics with you.

  231. #232 Krebiozen
    February 1, 2012

    Sick Poppet,

    Remember when science said the world was flat?

    You mean at least 700 years ago in Europe? More recently in the land of ancient wisdom, China, of course. And this is relevant to modern scientific medicine how?

  232. #233 Narad
    February 1, 2012

    Remember when science said the world was flat?

    No. Perhaps you’d like to elaborate.

  233. #234 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    So, should we be exposing children to potentially fatal diseases again just to bring your alleged imbalance into balance?

    Currently, you’re exposing naive and uninfected children to 36 repeated infection of some 14 known diseases in their first two years of life. Do you know of any other ritual more sadistic than this?

  234. #235 Gray Falcon
    February 1, 2012

    Th1Th2, look up the concept of “probability”. Learn about it. Once you understand the idea, then you will be taken seriously.

  235. #236 Chris
    February 1, 2012

    lilady quoting Mr. Schecter:

    I agree. It is pointless to expect one can change any minds over there. They’re too emotionally invested in the issue. I do it to refine my positions and practice defending them.”

    One way to change our minds is by actually posting real evidence and facts. You also need to stop whining about vaccine requirements for schools, especially since you live in California where exemptions are so common.

    Yes, a state where schools close due to pertussis outbreaks. As it says in the article: “Students attending California schools are required to get immunizations for whooping cough but parents can opt out.”

    It would also help if you would not lie. Like the Tamara/Allen sock puppet, and someone who seems to claim to be the author Sidney Offit.

    Or say something as blindingly stupid as “Remember when science said the world was flat?” That is up there with “doctors said smoking was good for you” (no, that was the tobacco company), and “vaccines are in injected in the blood stream.”

  236. #237 Narad
    February 1, 2012

    Do you know of any other ritual more sadistic than this?

    In the sense in which you use the term, sure. You’re the veritable embodiment.

  237. #238 Science Mom
    February 1, 2012

    To enter or transfer into public and PRIVATE elementary and secondary schools (grades kindergarten through 12), children under age 18 years MUST have immunizations as outlined below. New 7th grade entry requirements went into effect 7/1/99. A varicella requirement for kindergarten entry will go into effect 7/1/01.

    So dishonest Bob. Click on
    “Immunization Schedule”
    and right there in plain English it states:

    EXEMPTIONS
    The law allows (a) parents/guardians to choose exemptions from immunization requirements based on their personal beliefs, and (b) physicians of children to choose medical exemptions from them. The law does not allow parents/guardians to choose an exemption simply because the “shot” record is lost or incomplete and it is too much trouble to get to a physician or clinic to correct the problem. The back of the blue California School Immunization Record has instructions and an affidavit to be signed by parents who want a personal beliefs exemption. An up-to-date list of children with exemptions should be maintained separately by the child care staff so that these children can be quickly identified and excluded from attendance if an outbreak occurs.

    Additionally, if the parents are opposed to vaccination, it’s their damn responsibility to find out what their options are.

    The home school argument is absurd. Let’s say I don’t want to home school.

    Not absurd at all you entitled brat. Too bad, too sad for you if you don’t wanna homeschool; it’s an option.

    And don’t bring up the religious exemption, because most people who don’t want vaccines don’t tie it to religion.

    You’re in no position to make demands, idiotic ones no less. People who want their get-out-of-vaccines card most certainly use religious exemptions as philosophical. They don’t give a rat’s ass about religion as long as their precious snowflakes can remain unspoilt.

    Just admit the government forces this stuff on people.

    They don’t; you just don’t like the options when you want to act like a spoiled fuckwit. ZOMG, poor wittle poopsie has to fill out some paperwork. Grow the fuck up Bob.

  238. #239 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    So what now W. Kevin Vicklund? Are we just going to let this pass?

    The vaccine is injected into the fatty tissue. Memory B cells respond to the antigen by producing antibodies.

    And where is the stupid nurse lilady?

  239. #240 Ren
    February 1, 2012

    So, the anti-collectivism advocate is complaining that his progeny will not be able to attend public school unless they’re immunized. Isn’t public school a form of collectivism, children interdependent on each other to learn and grow?

    By God, Schecter, you might as well go protest that children are being asked to work in groups at school, play in team sports, hold pep rallies. I mean, the sacrifice bunt is nothing but pure, unadulterated collectivism (where the need of the team to move a runner from one base to the next outweighs the need of the hitter to increase their batting average). That right there, the sacrifice bunt, is a bigger threat to society than vaccines ever will be.

    Home school them and get it over with, Bob. Move out to Montana, far away from other people. Practice what you preach… Or, you know, bring forth a more viable insult than calling us “collectivists”.

    (Personally, I rather like Bob’s Facebook page and blog. It’s where I go get my daily dose of nutty.)

  240. #241 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    “lilady” is here Troll. What were you stating about intravenous immunizations, Thingy?

    Have your “keepers” allowed you access to the internet again, Lloyd?

    Why don’t you get a life troll, stop “gaming the system”, get an education, get a JOB commensurate with your limited abilities and…take the psychotropic medications being offered to you?

    Tell us again Thingy, about your delusions and your imaginary education, your imaginary wannabe career in the health care professions and your imaginary job in the hospital. Your posting about measles containment in a health care setting is classic Thingy brain droppings.

    Time to “terminally disinfect” the delusional Thingy.

  241. #242 Denice Walter
    February 1, 2012

    @ Sid:

    Robert: I’m being totally serious and entirely sincere- I even declare this a sarcasm-free zone- I hope you won’t mind a few questions-btw- I don’t *analyse* anyone, while I have discussed others’ general skills and the presence/ absence of SMI- I won’t do that here:

    You seem to really hate vaccines: why is that? Are you more concerned about the fact that the government *requires* you to vaccinate or is there something about the vaccines in of themselves? Do you think that they’re very dangerous or interfere with health in some other way? I’m sure you’re at least 30 years old and have been vaccinated – at least as a child. Do you think that they harmed *you*?

    You’re an investor: so am I. When you buy any stock, bond, mutual, ETF or other investment, there is always risk; the only way to ( nearly) eliminate risk is to tie money up in very safe, low-paying funds. You need risk in order to gain but always seek intelligent risks ( guess who isn’t buying Greek bonds?) You’ve invested heavily against vaccines- how is that benefitting you? What’s the long-term gain? What are the risks?

  242. #243 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    “vaccines are in injected in the blood stream.”

    Oh yes they are.

    Prolonged hepatitis B surface antigenemia after vaccination.
    h_ttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10835094

    Hepatitis B Surface Antigenemia in a Neonate Following Vaccination With Pediarix
    h_ttp://cpj.sagepub.com/content/48/3/311.extract

    Hepatitis B vaccine induced HBsAg positivity
    h_ttp://cpj.sagepub.com/content/48/3/311.extract

    Implications of Postvaccination Hepatitis B Surface Antigenemia in the Management of Exposures to Body Fluids
    h_ttp://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/502449

    False positive HBsAg result in blood donors due to administration of three different recombinant DNA Hepatitis B vaccines
    h_ttp://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X03003657

    Induced HBs Antigenemia in Healthy Adults after Immunization with Two Different Hepatitis B Recombinant Vaccines
    h_ttp://hepatmon.com/view/?id=537

    —–

    Don’t you just love science, Chris?

  243. #244 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    What were you stating about intravenous immunizations, Thingy?

    You mean this?

    Live attenuated malaria vaccine designed to protect through hepatic CD8⁺ T cell immunity.

    Our goal is to develop a vaccine that sustainably prevents Plasmodium falciparum (Pf) malaria in ≥80% of recipients. Pf sporozoites (PfSPZ) administered by mosquito bites are the only immunogens shown to induce such protection in humans. Such protection is thought to be mediated by CD8(+) T cells in the liver that secrete interferon-γ (IFN-γ). We report that purified irradiated PfSPZ administered to 80 volunteers by needle inoculation in the skin was safe, but suboptimally immunogenic and protective. Animal studies demonstrated that intravenous immunization was critical for inducing a high frequency of PfSPZ-specific CD8(+), IFN-γ-producing T cells in the liver (nonhuman primates, mice) and conferring protection (mice). Our results suggest that intravenous administration of this vaccine will lead to the prevention of infection with Pf malaria.

    h_ttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21903775

    Oh noes! Not the IV!

  244. #245 Gray Falcon
    February 1, 2012

    Th1Th2, do you honestly believe that if one item in a set has a specific property, that all of the items in the set must possess the same properties? For example, if you share the name of a convicted felon, does that make you a criminal?

  245. #246 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    Th1Th2, do you honestly believe that if one item in a set has a specific property, that all of the items in the set must possess the same properties? For example, if you share the name of a convicted felon, does that make you a criminal?

    And that is related to vaccines how?

  246. #247 Sauceress
    February 1, 2012

    #230 Th1Th2

    You mean this?

    So humpty, could you please inform us as to which of the vaccines on the current vaccination schedule, starting off with the childhood schedule, are administered IV?

    Oh and please, no repeats of your ignorant rubbish @198 claiming that “The chicken pox vaccine is administered into the blood stream through subcutaneous route.”

  247. #248 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    So humpty, could you please inform us as to which of the vaccines on the current vaccination schedule, starting off with the childhood schedule, are administered IV?

    Intravenous injection is not a recommended route of administering parenteral vaccines on the current vaccine schedule.

    Oh and please, no repeats of your ignorant rubbish @198 claiming that “The chicken pox vaccine is administered into the blood stream through subcutaneous route.”

    Oh I see. Then explain to me how and where did these infants got HbsAg in their blood?

    Transient hepatitis B surface antigenemia after neonatal hepatitis B immunization

    Following immunization with hepatitis B vaccine, 39 infants were followed prospectively for hepatitis B surface antigen (HBsAg). A total of 69.2% of the infants tested positive for antigenemia at least once. Antigenemia was identified most often at 2–3 days (43.5 %) and 5–6 days (43.5 %) after immunization. The longest documented duration of antigenemia was 21 days. In all cases the antigenemia was transient and cleared by the 28th day post-vaccination.

    h_ttp://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1651-2227.1996.tb13961.x/abstract?systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+be+disrupted+4+Feb+from+10-12+GMT+for+monthly+maintenance

  248. #249 Science Mom
    February 1, 2012

    Oh I see. Then explain to me how and where did these infants got HbsAg in their blood?

    Another from the Thinglish Medical Dictionary. By that “logic”, the food I eat is IV administered since it’s constituents end up in my bloodstream. And SFB thingdong lands another gold in the mental gymnastics competition.

  249. #250 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    By that “logic”, the food I eat is IV administered since it’s constituents end up in my bloodstream.

    No you don’t need “logic”, instead you need a medical background. Feeding a person intravenously can be achieved through TPN.

    Now where is the stupid nurse lilady? Start a TPN stat!

  250. #251 dedicated lurker
    February 1, 2012

    So Sid, should laws against driving while intoxicated be removed?

    Oh, 700 years ago I doubt most people bothered to think too much about whether the world was flat or not. Educated persons of the time would have been able to tell you it was round.

  251. #252 Sauceress
    February 1, 2012

    You really need to curb your disingenuous use of semantics humpty.

    Antigenemia was identified most often at 2–3 days (43.5 %) and 5–6 days (43.5 %)

    Just the hepatitis B surface antigen detected in the bloodstream then? Not the entire components incorporated in the vaccine?

    I’ve told you before Th1Th2, a little effort in learning the basics of immunology (Throw in some basic pharmacology while you’re at it. I suggest you start with ADME i.e. Absorption, Distribution, Metabolism, and Excretion) would greatly aid you in avoiding your consistent presentation as an utterly ignorant and disingenuous antivaxx wanker.

  252. #253 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    Just the hepatitis B surface antigen detected in the bloodstream then? Not the entire components incorporated in the vaccine?

    First off, thank you for that graceful concession. Secondly,
    why do you care about other components of the vaccine? Haha you’re guilty of toxin gambit!

    I’ve told you before Th1Th2, a little effort in learning the basics of immunology (Throw in some basic pharmacology while you’re at it. I suggest you start with ADME i.e. Absorption, Distribution, Metabolism, and Excretion) would greatly aid you in avoiding your consistent presentation as an utterly ignorant and disingenuous antivaxx wanker.

    Let’s start with absorption. So you would expect HbsAg to stay in the muscles, wouldn’t you? So how did it end up in the blood?

  253. #254 dedicated lurker
    February 1, 2012

    Well Thingy, food goes into the stomach and intestines. How do nutrients wind up in the blood?

  254. #255 Sauceress
    February 1, 2012

    So you would expect HbsAg to stay in the muscles, wouldn’t you?

    Explain in detail would one expect HbsAg to stay in the muscles?

    So how did it end up in the blood?

    Once again you broadcast your wilful ignorance.
    I tell you again humpty: Educate yourself on some basic immunology. Look up antigen presenting cells,(APCs) tissue macrophages, migration and antigen presentation. That’s just for starters!
    Stop being so deceitful and lazy minded.

  255. #256 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    Well Thingy, food goes into the stomach and intestines. How do nutrients wind up in the blood?

    Unfortunately, that question is unacceptable according to Sauceress. Please rephrase it “entirely”.

  256. #257 Sauceress
    February 1, 2012

    Unfortunately, that question is unacceptable according to Sauceress. Please rephrase it “entirely”.

    How’s that humpty? Explain exactly why that question is unacceptable to Sauceress?

  257. #258 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    Explain in detail would one expect HbsAg to stay in the muscles?

    Because they are never injected into the bloodstream according to you?

    I tell you again humpty: Educate yourself on some basic immunology. Look up antigen presenting cells,(APCs) tissue macrophages, migration and antigen presentation. That’s just for starters!

    Yes. What about them? Where do you think antigen presentation takes place?

  258. #259 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    How’s that humpty? Explain exactly why that question is unacceptable to Sauceress?

    Well, it’s just the nutrients (HbsAg), how about the entire food (vaccine)? Remember?

  259. #260 Sauceress
    February 1, 2012

    Where do you think antigen presentation takes place?

    I know where antigen presentation takes place humpty but I’m not giving you any hints. You have to look it up yourself.
    Once you’ve done that tell us how does the antigen get to that destination from the tissue?

  260. #261 Narad
    February 1, 2012

    No you don’t need “logic”, instead you need a medical background.

    I see you’ve put your foot in it again. Tell everyone about your “logic”-free “medical background,” won’t you?

  261. #262 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    I know where antigen presentation takes place humpty but I’m not giving you any hints. You have to look it up yourself. Once you’ve done that tell us how does the antigen get to that destination from the tissue?

    OK, so since vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream according to you, therefore antigen presentation could have taken place at the injection site? Is this correct?

  262. #263 Sauceress
    February 1, 2012

    OK, so since vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream according to you, therefore antigen presentation could have taken place at the injection site? Is this correct?

    You tell me. Look it up humpty.

  263. #264 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    You tell me. Look it up humpty.

    You don’t need to cower. Just answer. You’re disappointing the science-based community.

  264. #265 lilady
    February 1, 2012

    Where is that delusional Thingy?

    Here’s a clue for you Thingy about HepBsAg detected in blood in children and adults after immunization with the Hep B vaccine. (Note it is a newer study)

    Abstract

    Hepatitis B vaccine can induce transient hepatitis B surface antigen positivity not only in adult hemodialysis patients but also in normal adults and children. Hence hepatitis B vaccinees may be mistaken for confirmed hepatitis B surface antigen-positive carrier. Hence blood donors should not donate blood in this early post-vaccination period and renal dialysis patients should not be screened for hepatitis B surface antigen for at least 21 to 28 days after hepatitis B vaccination. These guidelines could prevent individuals in the early post-inoculation period from being erroneously labeled as having hepatitis B viral infection.

    Keywords: Hepatitis B virus, hepatitis B vaccine, hepatitis B antigen, HBsAg, hemodialysis
    How to cite this article:
    Singh SP. Hepatitis B vaccine induced HBsAg positivity. Hep B Annual 2007;4:55-60

    How to cite this URL:
    Singh SP. Hepatitis B vaccine induced HBsAg positivity. Hep B Annual [serial online] 2007 [cited 2012 Feb 1];4:55-60. Available from: http://www.hepatitisbannual.org/text.asp?2007/4/1/55/4508

  265. #266 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    see you’ve put your foot in it again. Tell everyone about your “logic”-free “medical background,” won’t you?

    And your logical medical background is…

  266. #267 Narad
    February 1, 2012
    see you’ve put your foot in it again. Tell everyone about your “logic”-free “medical background,” won’t you?

    And your logical medical background is…

    Squirming is unbecoming, Th1Th2. You made the mistake of claiming such a background, and now it’s time to put up or invite further merciless ridicule.

  267. #268 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    Here’s a clue for you Thingy about HepBsAg detected in blood in children and adults after immunization with the Hep B vaccine. (Note it is a newer study)

    OK, so what’s “newer” about HbsAg antigenemia? That the injection of HbsAg in the bloodstream didn’t cause HbsAg antigenemia?

  268. #269 Th1Th2
    February 1, 2012

    merciless ridicule.

    Like?

  269. #270 Narad
    February 1, 2012
    merciless ridicule.

    Like?

    Never failing to remind you of this ever-worsening blunder springs to mind.

  270. #271 Gray Falcon
    February 2, 2012

    Th1Th2:

    And that is related to vaccines how?

    Your argument appears to be that something related to vaccines was given IV, therefore all vaccines are given IV. I simply applied that logic to another area.

  271. #272 Th1Th2
    February 2, 2012

    Your argument appears to be that something related to vaccines was given IV, therefore all vaccines are given IV. I simply applied that logic to another area.

    I said (parenteral) vaccines are injected into the bloodstream. I did not say all vaccines are given per IV. Big difference.

  272. #273 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    Or say something as blindingly stupid as “Remember when science said the world was flat?” That is up there with “doctors said smoking was good for you” (no, that was the tobacco company), and “vaccines are in injected in the blood stream.”

    Chris, I said all that?

  273. #274 Navigator
    February 2, 2012

    I wouldn’t get a vaccination because..Oh wait. There’s a measles outbreak in Europe. Latest figures from 2 Dec 2011 are 26000 cases, 9 deaths, and 7288 hospitalizations (BBC.com).
    But Europe is all the way across the ocean, so I’m safe, right?
    What’s that you say? People can take an airplane from there to here in just a few hours?
    Well dang.

  274. #275 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    Isn’t public school a form of collectivism, children interdependent on each other to learn and grow?

    Hi Ren. I strongly oppose the institutionalization of young people in prisons known as “public schools.”

    By God, Schecter

    (My God, you’ve outted me. How dare you?)

    you might as well go protest that children are being asked to work in groups at school, play in team sports, hold pep rallies.

    See the part about school opposition.

    I mean, the sacrifice bunt is nothing but pure, unadulterated collectivism (where the need of the team to move a runner from one base to the next outweighs the need of the hitter to increase their batting average).

    Sac bunt has been exposed as a poor strategy
    http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/07/empirical_analy_1.php

    But life isn’t a team sport anyway. Besides, as in free- market economics, the hitter, attempting to maximize his self interest (getting a hit) generally benefits the team (society) as well

    Home school them and get it over with, Bob. Move out to Montana, far away from other people.

    It is those who can’t live with the risks of society (the possibility of catching an infectious illness) who should move to Montana. That way no one’s rights are violated.

  275. #276 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    @Denice

    You seem to really hate vaccines: why is that? Are you more concerned about the fact that the government *requires* you to vaccinate or is there something about the vaccines in of themselves? Do you think that they’re very dangerous or interfere with health in some other way? I’m sure you’re at least 30 years old and have been vaccinated – at least as a child. Do you think that they harmed *you*?
    You’re an investor: so am I. When you buy any stock, bond, mutual, ETF or other investment, there is always risk; the only way to ( nearly) eliminate risk is to tie money up in very safe, low-paying funds. You need risk in order to gain but always seek intelligent risks ( guess who isn’t buying Greek bonds?) You’ve invested heavily against vaccines- how is that benefitting you? What’s the long-term gain? What are the risks?

    Hate is a powerful and often destructive emotion – although under some circumstances it can be helpful. I do not hate vaccines. I am agnostic in regards to them. If there was anything I’d hate it would be the government orchestrated propaganda campaigns and the coercion applied to parents to get them to vaccinate.

    Do I think they are very dangerous? I don’t know. I know it hurts like hell when you stick a needle into a 2 month old. I know there are a lot that hasn’t been studied and a lot of instances of science being wrong. Can “tricking” a developing immune system result in negative consequences? Maybe. So why take a chance. After all there’s the history of SV40 contamination, the fact that thimerisol was pulled because no one knew what effects it would have at the levels present in vaccines and the hepatitis B contamination of vaccines. Do you really think the last problem is the last problem that will ever emerge? But it’s really a lack of benefit that makes vaccines so unappealing. Even in an era when infectious illnesses were prevalent there was little risk to the healthy and well-nourished. Today, with 200 cases of the measles there is almost no chance to even catch them, let alone suffer a serious complication.

    And I have been vaccinated. I have foggy memories of it happening at school, probably in a nurse’s office. As to whether it’s done something to me, I have no way of knowing. I don’t have an unvaxxed version of myself. And that’s a whole different schedule anyway.

    As to being heavily invested agaisnst vaccines it’s simply an either or decision. When I don’t buy an SUV I’m not heavily invested against them. I’m heavily invested against government involvement in the vaccine decision and heavily invested against propaganda that says the measles is a “killer.”

    As to stocks, there just isn’t the reward to justify the risk.

  276. #277 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    @DL

    So Sid, should laws against driving while intoxicated be removed?

    I do not know how this analogy lives on in your circles. I guess it is evidence of the decrepitude of your side’s argument. DUI is a person ACTING to CREATE a risk to other people. NOT vaxxing is NOT an action and puts no one at risk. Aside from that, your analogy works perfectly.

  277. #278 nastylittlehorse
    February 2, 2012

    @Sid, 262

    “NOT vaxxing is NOT an action and puts no one at risk.”

    NOT vaxxing is NOT an action, true, but it puts the inactive person (or more likely their parent/guardian) and others around them at greater risk of disease.

    NOT eating is also NOT an action, and is not very good for you in the long run.

  278. #279 nastylittlehorse
    February 2, 2012

    Oops. –

    “puts the inactive person (or more likely their parent/guardian)”

    Should be

    “puts the inactive person (or more likely their parent/guardian puts the inactive person)”

  279. #280 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    Mr. Schecter:

    Chris, I said all that?

    No. Sorry about the confusion. It was a general comment mostly towards the sock puppets, and a bit towards you.

    Seriously, just show us some real evidence that vaccines have too much risk compared to the actual diseases. And don’t pretend that the risk of getting the disease is low is the actual risk. With blogs like yours and the ignorant blatherings of sock puppets like Allen/Tamara, the herd immunity you depend on is being eroded.

    I do have another suggestion for you and your sock puppet friends: if the immunization requirements for school is too much of a burden, then start your own school.

    You all could run your own private school where all public health rules are ignored. There would be no immunization requirements, the restrooms would not be supplied with soap (because washing hands after using the toilet is another onerous gov’t rule!), no one would care if the lunch room properly washed the dishes or kept food at a proper temperature and there would be absolutely no access to upper floors except by stairs (because no one attending would ever need evil gov’t required ADA accommodations).

    And there would definitely never be an evil gov’t sanctioned “school zone speed limit” on the nearby streets, since kids who cannot get out of the way of speeding cars do not deserve to be educated in your school. Also remember you should have the parents build the school without any evil gov’t permits, because those building codes are stupid. Why bother with earthquake codes, or even having a fire alarm? If the kids see a fire they should put it out and never ever call 911, an evil gov’t number.

    Also there should be no health classes, the only sex education would be “keep your pants zipped up!”, no science classes (all those silly laws from some guy called “Newton”, and “evolution is only a theory”), no history (don’t want the kids to learn about the Black Plague or how Pizarro conquered the Inca), English classes would only read Ayn Rand books (the seniors would love the introduction of Galt with a rape scene) and the civics class (also known as American Government) would consist of explaining how everyone outside the school is a communist. The high school seniors would never be shown how to sign up for FAFSA, and be told to only apply to certain private schools, that they would need to pay for themselves. No gov’t loans allowed.

    And if the school has an outbreak of measles or pertussis, ignore the county health department and never close. Show those wimpy Waldorf schools that closed because of pertussis that you have to totally ignore public health!

  280. #281 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    Mr. Schecter:

    Maybe. So why take a chance. After all there’s the history of SV40 contamination, the fact that thimerisol was pulled because no one knew what effects it would have at the levels present in vaccines and the hepatitis B contamination of vaccines.

    You are really reaching. The bit about SMaybe. So why take a chance. After all there’s the history of SV40 contamination, the fact that thimerisol was pulled because no one knew what effects it would have at the levels present in vaccines and the hepatitis B contamination of vaccines.40 was noticed and dealt with by vaccine scientists fifty years years ago! Bringing that up is more pathetic than bringing up thimerosal, which was removed from pediatric vaccines over ten years ago.

    If you are all about risks, please explain to us how pertussis, also known as “whooping cough” or “hundred day cough”, is much safer than the DTaP or Tdap vaccines. Be sure your answers include real evidence and not random websites.

    Don’t bother complaining those which still contain thimersal unless they are the majority. For the mathematically illiterate (like Bob Schecter), one out of three is a minority, and four out of eight influenza vaccines is not a majority.

  281. #282 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    Myself:

    The bit about SMaybe.

    Ah, the reason why someone (me) should never drink and comment. AARgh!

    It is supposed to be SV40 contamination that was resolved fifty years ago. Something that is often ignored by many,

    Good night.

  282. #283 herr doktor bimler
    February 2, 2012

    the fact that thimerisol was pulled because no one knew what effects it would have at the levels present in vaccines

    This is not a fact.

  283. #284 T-reg
    February 2, 2012

    Ok, I just couldn’t get this -

    First Mr. Schecter says that the policies of your government regarding vaccination simultaneously interferes with his right to admit his children in a school and his right to have them exempted from being vaccinated.

    Now he says that he is against the institution that is school.

    I’m baffled – he doesn’t like the whole concept of school yet he is indignant that the policy of vaccination is somehow against having his children go to school.

    This is like – “I don’t like eggs but now I’m pissed that other people get to eat them.”

    Also, he goes on and on about rights. His kids have the right to refuse vaccination and embrace disease. So why shouldn’t the kids at school have the right to avoid potential carriers that his children are i.e. refuse the disease?

    I believe there is a concept, “Your rights end where mine begin”.

  284. #285 Krebiozen
    February 2, 2012

    NOT vaxxing is NOT an action and puts no one at risk.

    It was because of people with that attitude in the UK in the early 80s that my infant son spent several weeks in the hospital with whooping cough, coughing (and coughing and coughing) until his lips turned blue. He couldn’t be vaccinated for medical reasons, and a vaccine safety scare that turned out to be groundless meant that vaccination rates fell from 78% to 31%, and pertussis cases increased from 2,000 a year to a peak of 66,000. My son didn’t die, which was surprising considering his other medical problems, but others did and it was a horrible experience for him and everyone around him.

    That’s one reason I get a bit irritated when people come out with idiotic nonsense like this, and when others claim that herd immunity is a myth.

  285. #286 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 2, 2012

    Today, with 200 cases of the measles there is almost no chance to even catch them, let alone suffer a serious complication.

    Anyone know the name of this fallacy? It’s one of Sid’s favorites. “Under existing precondition X, an individual’s chance of encountering negative outcome Y is small. Therefore, they should feel free to take actions which alter or destroy precondition X, assuming that the probability of Y will magically remain unchanged and small.”

    Hey! I know! Why don’t we let our kids play with matches? We’ve never had a fire on this block, so obviously the chances of having a fire now are low, no matter what we do. It doesn’t matter that we haven’t had a fire because we discouraged risky behavior like playing with matches; the chances of a fire are just magically low and that’s that.

    Let’s play with a Bengal tiger! It must be safe, because so few people are hurt each year by playing with Bengal tigers! Could the fact that very few people play with Bengal tigers have something to do with very few people being hurt by them?? Naw, it must be that Bengal tigers ‘pose no risk to the healthy and fast-running’! … Let’s not think about the fact that freeing the Bengal tiger from the zoo also brings it in contact with people who might not be ‘healthy and fast-running.’ What happens to them is entirely their own fault; they made the stupid mistake of being in a community with someone like me who doesn’t believe in ‘collectivist’ choices like keeping the freaking Bengal tigers where they can’t hurt people.

  286. #287 Ren
    February 2, 2012

    @Bob

    Yes, I’ve outed you. Live with it. I live with monthly emails to my bosses from anti-vaxers.

    Back to you:

    I am agnostic in regards to them.

    Could’ve fooled me because you immediately go into a rant about all their evils. You don’t even give them the benefit of the doubt in any of your writings on your blog, your Facebook page, Generation Rescue. You’ve aligned yourself with the anti-vaccine crowd.

    I mean, it’s like me saying that I’m an agnostic in the religious sense and then telling you that you’re going straight to Hell or eternally condemned by God for all your trespasses, then giving a sermon about the book of Job, writing the church newsletter, and leading the group in prayer. Know what I mean? You’re not agnostic, Mr. Schecter. Just like none of us here debating the science of immunizations with you is an idiot.

    As to being heavily invested agaisnst vaccines it’s simply an either or decision. When I don’t buy an SUV I’m not heavily invested against them.

    But do you parrot scientifically inaccurate and misleading information about SUV’s on several blogs and social networks when you don’t buy an SUV? Do you debate SUV drivers about how stupid or idiotic they are? Do you do your darnest to tarnish the reputation of SUVs by only posting and commenting on the accidents attributed to SUVs but not the times when SUVs have taken people to and fro with no problems?

  287. #290 master sock puppeteer
    February 2, 2012

    This blog post would be much easier to follow and get some answers if all of the bullies would subside and let those who actually know science speak. Th1Th2, your thoughts intrigue me. Can someone in this “science” community who is actually intelligent and knows what they’re talking about respond to his/her questions? All of the name/career dropping is really making me shake in my boots but it’s not helping much in the get answers department..

  288. #291 Tamara
    February 2, 2012

    “But also, vaccine safety becomes a major public concern, particularly in developed countries. It is true that the majority of vaccines are given to healthy children. And it is also true that the risk-benefits ratio is looked at on the individual level. People expect a risk of zero from vaccine, even if it is theoretically impossible. And we know that perception of risk outweighs the perception of benefit in the public. And we can see also an increase in the activity of anti-vaccine groups.

    So taking into account these trends, and also perhaps due to some recent public health issues, such as the “Mad Cow” Disease, or the contaminated food product
    issue, there is an increased responsibility for the I would like to illustrate these trends–at least hear some unsubstantiated claims between vaccines and disease. Perhaps for the two first claims there are some scientific hypotheses: Lyme vaccine and autoimmune
    arthritis, with the possibility of molecular mimicry in terms of vaccine; and Guillain-Barre syndrome.

    But for the last four examples, there are no real scientific data explaining these hypotheses: Combined vaccines and autoimmune diabetes; Hep-B and multiple sclerosis, this is mainly a French issue; MMR vaccine and autism, that is mainly a U.K. issue; and recently, aluminum hydroxide on macrophagic myofascitis, again mainly located in France.

    So at least from these claims it’s obvious that we need to provide good scientific data, good non-clinical safety data, to argue on these claims.”

    < http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/NewsEvents/WorkshopsMeetingsConferences/TranscriptsMinutes/UCM054459.pdf> *page 40-1*

    So, if the FDA itself admits that it cannot provide good scientific data to argue these claims, why hell are all of you?

  289. #292 Anton P. Nym
    February 2, 2012

    NOT vaxxing is NOT an action and puts no one at risk.

    Only in the sense that not bathing is not an action and puts no one at risk… except for the added risk of parasites, which can spread from the rather odious practitioner onto others.

    If it was just a personal decision, I wouldn’t care about antivaxxers; if people want to be self-destructive, I’d try advise against the behaviour but wouldn’t want to bring the power of the state down upon ‘em to prevent self-destruction because it really is their choice.

    But it’s not. Some diseases are communicable; a fact known even back in the days of ancient Rome and Greece. So avoiding preventative medicine puts not just the avoider at risk but also those surrounding them. And because sometimes immunisation fails (not everyone’s system takes up the immunity as well as one would hope) or isn’t practical (some cannot be immunised due to allergies, for instance) anyone not immunised is putting others at risk too… and no one should feel entitled to gamble with the lives of others.

    So take a bath and get your shots, because I don’t want to get sick and I don’t want you making my nieces sick.

    — Steve

    (Apologies if this is less lucid than usual; ironically, I’m home under a blanket fighting off a sinus bug.)

  290. #293 Denice Walter
    February 2, 2012

    @ Sid:

    Robert: Thank you for your response. I am not trying to debate any of your points but would like you to consider a few things:

    You mention possible risks associated with vaccines ( “tricking” the immune system, thimerisol, SV40, others to be revealed) as well as lack of benefit to “the healthy and well nourished”. These arguments are very familiar to me because I survey alt med providers (including anti-vaxxers and HIV/AIDS dissenters): isn’t there a possibility that those who proselytise in this way are motivated to present information that benefits them either financially ( they sell products, lectures, media) and/ or personally ( they have a reputation as a natural health thought leader or as parents of children with ASDs whom they feel were injured by vaccines)?

    Isn’t there a possibility that these individuals are themselves conducting a “propaganda campaign” to “coerce parents” to avoid vaccines? Now, if you want to *sell* someone on an idea it’s useful to know what irks them: people may be angry at the government and mistrust doctors and pharma *already*- so you present information that strengthens these feelings: frightening people and making them angry. Supporters of vaccination are demonised and presented unrealistically: miscreants all, compromised, bought and paid for by pharma.

    The reason I got involved: the alt med infomation I’ve followed seems totally unrelated to what *I’ve* studied ( I studied life sciences as well as social) and seems more advertisement than education. I believe that alt med advocates unfairly emotionally manipulate their audiences: some for financial gain, others to magnify their own self-esteem or social power. If people are aware of this, then they can make better informed choices.

  291. #294 JGC
    February 2, 2012

    Sid @262

    DUI is a person ACTING to CREATE a risk to other people. NOT vaxxing is NOT an action and puts no one at risk.

    So if I substitute “Not remaining sober while driving” for “DUI”, does driving drunk somehow become “NOT an action” and magically cease putting others at risk?

    As for the “Not an action” refusal to be immunized put no one at risk, you are quite simply wrong: it compromises herd immunity and places individuals who are either too young to be immunized or who for reasons other than age are suitable candidates for vaccination at risk of infection.

    Really, Sid–herd immunity isn’t that difficult a concept to grasp.

  292. #295 Tamara
    February 2, 2012

    Merely that if the FDA states there is not enough scientific data to refute “anti-vax” claims (in laymen terms) and that more studies are needed. Basically, I’m a little puzzled as to why you’re fighting so hard that they’re safe when the proprietor says otherwise. Page 40-41 on link above :)

    My posts are going “poof” thanks to the pathetic silencing of those who challenge “orac” (and in turn all of you “sheeple” – as someone else so kindly put it)

  293. #296 JGC
    February 2, 2012

    Sorry, should read “it compromises herd immunity and places individuals who are either too young to be immunized or who for reasons other than age are not suitable candidates for vaccination at risk of infection”.

    Should have been evident from context, and with anyone but Sid I would have presumed they’d realize error and understand hat I meant to say, but he either genuinely doesn’t understand the importance of herd immunity or he simply doesn’t care that his electing not to be immunized against diseases such as pertussis places others at risk of illness and death.

    In an effort to be charitable I must presume he’s acting in ignorance rather than with callous disregard.

  294. #297 TBruce
    February 2, 2012

    Can someone in this “science” community who is actually intelligent and knows what they’re talking about respond to his/her questions

    Most of us have attempted precisely what you ask. It is futile. The Thing is impervious to logic, redefines words to suit itself, and, as I have repeatedly stated, is boring, stupid and insane. It should be ignored till it disappears.

  295. #298 Marry Me, Mindy
    February 2, 2012

    So if I substitute “Not remaining sober while driving” for “DUI”, does driving drunk somehow become “NOT an action” and magically cease putting others at risk?

    Or “not utilizing a designated driver”

    If I am drunk, I could find a designated driver, or I could NOT find a designated driver. Not finding a designated driver is dangerous, which means that Sid is back to being an asshole. Not that he ever stopped, mind you.

  296. #299 missmayinga
    February 2, 2012

    Sid @261

    Can “tricking” a developing immune system result in negative consequences? Maybe. So why take a chance.

    See, the problem with this is that there’s no clear idea about what negative consequences it would cause, let alone why it would cause them. A vaccine doesn’t really ‘trick’ the immune system, anyway – a better analogy would be that it trains it, by showing it a weaker version of a disease, so it can recognize the full version and fight it off better.

    After all there’s the history of SV40 contamination, the fact that thimerisol was pulled because no one knew what effects it would have at the levels present in vaccines and the hepatitis B contamination of vaccines. Do you really think the last problem is the last problem that will ever emerge?

    I’m not going to deny that contamination can occasionally be a problem. But you know where else you can find contamination? Bloody everywhere. I’m not going to stop eating lettuce just because there’s a chance I got a batch with E.coli on it.

    But it’s really a lack of benefit that makes vaccines so unappealing. Even in an era when infectious illnesses were prevalent there was little risk to the healthy and well-nourished. Today, with 200 cases of the measles there is almost no chance to even catch them, let alone suffer a serious complication.

    Leaving aside the “good health/eating right makes you invincible!” and the “there’s no risk of catching it, so let’s stop doing the things that keep us from catching it!” fallacies for a sec – Not everyone is frickin healthy. Not everyone is frickin well nourished. Even if those things did protect you, you’d still be able to pass it on to the people who weren’t “protected”, you outstanding doucheweasel.

  297. #300 master sock puppeteer
    February 2, 2012

    The debate was starting to become (gasp) interesting! Let’s get back on point:

    @lillady

    OK, so what’s “newer” about HbsAg antigenemia? That the injection of HbsAg in the bloodstream didn’t cause HbsAg antigenemia?

    @ Sauceress

    “OK, so since vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream according to you, therefore antigen presentation could have taken place at the injection site? Is this correct? (Back to the original question of where does antigen presentation take place?)”

    “Let’s start with absorption. So you would expect HbsAg to stay in the muscles, wouldn’t you? So how did it end up in the blood?”

    @Science Mom

    “Another from the Thinglish Medical Dictionary. By that “logic”, the food I eat is IV administered since it’s constituents end up in my bloodstream. And SFB thingdong lands another gold in the mental gymnastics competition.”

    - wow. that is all.

  298. #301 OracIsAQuack
    February 2, 2012

    “(My God, you’ve outted me. How dare you?)”

    Don’t all of these false skeptics whine, whimper, caterwaul, and complain about being outted?

    I thought outting was bad, mkay?

  299. #302 Th1Th2
    February 2, 2012

    (crickets chirping)

  300. #303 Ren
    February 2, 2012

    Robert Schecter outed himself a long, long time ago. He linked to his blog on his ‘nym and then made sure that we all knew it was him, that was his name, and that he was writing what he wrote.

    Outing is only bad when you then follow up the outing with a call for your followers to try and get the person fired. That is, it’s all in your intent.

  301. #304 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    OIAQ:

    I thought outting was bad, mkay?

    Mr. Schecter puts his actual name on the end of each of his block articles. It is not outing when a person actually has his blog name and real name attached to twitter.

  302. #305 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    “block articles” should be blog articles.

  303. #306 Narad
    February 2, 2012

    (crickets chirping)

    They must be waiting to hear about your “medical background.”

  304. #307 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    @herr doktor

    This was done after the removal of thimerisol:

    October 1. IOM’s Immunization Safety Review Committee issues a report concluding there is not enough evidence to disprove claims that thimerosal in childhood vaccines causes autism, attention deficit hypersensitivity disorder, or speech or language delay.

    May 5. A risk assessment of thimerosal use in childhood vaccines finds no evidence of harm from the use of thimerosal as a preservative, other than redness and swelling at the injection site.

    I guess they did all that because they knew what the amounts of thimerosal present in vaccines could do. They didn’t even know the amounts present until a review process brought it to the attention of authorities. So it’s difficult to know how they knew the effects when they didn’t even know the amounts since they study individual vaccines rather than the cumulative effect of the schedule.

  305. #308 dt
    February 2, 2012

    Let’s not forget the classic thingy trope: “oxygen is injected directly into your blood stream, by the act of breathing”

    (Excuse the paraphrase, I don’t recall the exact wording but the meaning was identical)

  306. #309 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    @Denise

    You seem to be saying I’m using alt-med arguments. All my arguments are from mainstream journals and scientific entities. Let me know when you see me using Mercola.com to support my assertions. Regardless, they should be easy to refute if alt-medish.

    isn’t there a possibility that those who proselytise in this way are motivated to present information that benefits them either financially ( they sell products, lectures, media) and/ or personally ( they have a reputation as a natural health thought leader or as parents of children with ASDs whom they feel were injured by vaccines)?

    Yes. But since I do not draw upon the work of that community the answer is irrelevant. Besides, I think your community has value when you expose false information and correct misconceptions regarding vaccines, e.g., there is mercury still in vaccines. But let me turn the question around. Isn’t there a possibility that those who proselytise for vaccines are motivated to present information that benefits them either financially ( they sell products, lectures, media) and/ or personally? The alt-med types should have a watchdog, why shouldn’t those who profit from the vaccine program. Is it not people who make up both groups?

    Isn’t there a possibility that these individuals are themselves conducting a “propaganda campaign” to “coerce parents” to avoid vaccines?

    Sure, it is possible. But again if propaganda / false information is being disseminated, I support your exposing it.

    Supporters of vaccination are demonised and presented unrealistically: miscreants all, compromised, bought and paid for by pharma.

    Demonize means to portray as wicked and threatening. Those pushing parents into unwanted vaccination are threatening and their actions support an immoral program. Paul Offit is at the vanguard and I’ve written about his ignorance and or deceptive tactics many times but I’ve focused on facts and legitimate criticisms, not personal attacks. How would you define deamonize? And is it incorrect to call someone like him a vaccine pusher? Isn’t that what he does?

    The reason I got involved: the alt med infomation I’ve followed seems totally unrelated to what *I’ve* studied ( I studied life sciences as well as social) and seems more advertisement than education. I believe that alt med advocates unfairly emotionally manipulate their audiences: some for financial gain, others to magnify their own self-esteem or social power. If people are aware of this, then they can make better informed choices.

    I’m not an alt-med advocate. So have at it. I’m all for deception being exposed.

  307. #310 lilady
    February 2, 2012

    @ puppeteer: The whole premise is that none of the vaccines are injected into the blood stream. Tamara Ugo, who posted here under a slew of morphing sock puppets and has now been banned by Orac, first mentioned IV administration of childhood vaccines.

    Thingy then found an article about development of a malaria vaccine (there is no vaccine presently available against malaria), which might be more effective if administered IV. Thingy then found an article about detection of transient HBsAg in serum of infants who had received Hepatitis B vaccine.

    I located a newer (more recent) article that states transient HBsAg is found in all children and adults, following immunization against the virus. Just read the citation I provided, to determine why patients who are on dialysis should not be tested for the presence of HBsAg soon after receiving the hepatitis B vaccine…and why receipt of the vaccine recently disqualifies a potential blood donor.

    Thingy then drew the illogical conclusion that the transient HBsAg blood marker is “proof” that the person has been infected by the vaccine.

    Sauceress and Science Mom then challenged Thingy to show how the transient HBsAg serum marker “got there” when the vaccine is administered via the IM route. They have provided some helpful “hints” to Thingy, but it still has not responded.

  308. #311 Th1Th2
    February 2, 2012

    Let’s not forget the classic thingy trope: “oxygen is injected directly into your blood stream, by the act of breathing”

    Desperate times call for desperate measures, only in RI. (Citation needed)

  309. #312 missmayinga
    February 2, 2012

    @Sid

    Could you link to the papers you referenced? It’s hard to assess the worth of their conclusions without being able to look at the methodology and all.

  310. #313 Lawrence
    February 2, 2012

    @Sid – it is your opinion that the vaccination program itself is immoral? Or just the PR associated with it?

    If you were, as you say, un-biased, then I would like to see you advocate for transparency & reasonable dialogue from both sides – chastising Jake Crosby, perhaps, for playing “Six-Degrees” to link any and all pro-vaccination personalities (or even journalists that publish articles not to AoA’s liking) to the Pharma industry….

    Also, did you ever criticize the AoA cartoon that depicted Dr. Offit & others as sitting for Thanksgiving Dinner and having a child prepared like a turkey?

  311. #314 Todd W.
    February 2, 2012

    I’m heavily invested against government involvement in the vaccine decision and heavily invested against propaganda that says the measles is a “killer.”

    Here we see Bob explicitly stating that he is heavily invested against reality. For example, in 1991, two religious schools that preach that prayer, not medical science, is all that’s needed to stay healthy were the epicenter of a measles outbreak, which led to the deaths of 5 children.

    I predict one of a couple different responses to this from Mr. Schechter:

    1) He will try to argue that this occurred in some third world country, where conditions are worse and the poor tend to have poorer health. (But this happened here in the U.S.)

    2) He will try to argue that some other illness, not measles, is what did the kids in. (I’d like to see his evidence to support such an assertion.)

    3) He will admit that measles was responsible, but that the five children were not healthy to begin with. (Again, evidence needed, though such an admission would show that he lied earlier by implying that measles was not a killer.)

    Certainly, cognitive dissonance will kick in and he’ll concoct some rationalization in an attempt to show that he’s right and everyone else is wrong.

  312. #315 W. Kevin Vicklund
    February 2, 2012

    @puppeteer-

    injection n. – the forcing of a liquid into a part, as into the subcutaneous tissues, the vascular tree, or an organ.

    A vaccine is not injected into the bloodstream. It is injected into the extrcellular space in muscle or fatty tissue (depending on the vaccine). This space is filled with what is called interstitial fluid. This fluid slowly drains into lymph vessels, where the fluid is now called lymph, which drain into lymph nodes, and then eventually to other organs such as the spleen, and finally drains into the bloodstream.

    So the vaccine gets injected into tissue. The flow of the interstitial tissue slowly erodes the “vaccinal plug” (to coin a term) and washes it into the lymph nodes, where the B cells wait. In addition, white blood cells can move through capillary walls into the interstitial tissue, where they encounter the vaccine. Some of these white blood cells are what we call antigen-presenting cells (APCs), which digest the vaccine and then stick a small portion of the vaccine (called an antigen) on their surface. These cells then flow into the lymph vessels to the lymph nodes, where they present the antigen to the B cells.

    Of course, not all of the antigen or antigen-presenting cells interact with B cells, and some may eventually end up draining into the bloodstream. Note that antigenemia assays detect both raw antibody and APCs, so antigenemia assys may merely be detecting normal immune response to anitgen. In no way should this be characterized as injecting antigen into the bloodstream – to do so would be an abuse of the definition of inject. The antigen is in no way forced into the bloodstream.

  313. #316 Todd W.
    February 2, 2012

    Oops. I guess I should’ve done a bit more searching. The death toll was more than 5.

  314. #317 JGC
    February 2, 2012

    Sid @ 292

    So it’s difficult to know how they knew the effects when they didn’t even know the amounts since they study individual vaccines rather than the cumulative effect of the schedule.

    Following immunization thimerosal rapidly dissociates to form ethyl mercury which in turn is rapidly cleared from the body, principally by fecal excretion. The half-life of ethyl mercury in children following immunization has been measured and found to be slightly less than 4 days: circulating levels of ethyl mercury return to the pre-immunization baseline within 30 days following immunization.

    So unless a child is being immunized with a vaccine containing thimerosal on the order of every 8 to 10 days, there is no accumulation of thimerosal and thus no cumulative effect to be considered.

  315. #318 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    Mr. Schecter:

    But let me turn the question around. Isn’t there a possibility that those who proselytise for vaccines are motivated to present information that benefits them either financially ( they sell products, lectures, media) and/ or personally?

    Like insurance companies? I love the finance issues, because no one has quite told me how a treating measles is more cost effective than providing each child with two MMR doses. Especially when I read something like this.

    Demonize means to portray as wicked and threatening. Those pushing parents into unwanted vaccination are threatening and their actions support an immoral program.

    How is preventing disease outbreaks “immoral”? are all public health policies “immoral”? Does your county public health department impede a restaurant business when they insist that dishes be washed at a certain temperature, food be stored properly and employees wash their hands? (We’ve been watching “Restaurant Impossible” lately, and some of those businesses have defied public health policies!)

    If you don’t like that schools require vaccination (even though there is an easy to get exemption), then start your own school. Get together with others who dislike public health measures and start your own school. You could show your defiance of public health and “government” rules by not supplying the restrooms with soap, have no ramps nor elevators (ADA rules would also be immoral) and no fire alarms.

    I’m not an alt-med advocate. So have at it. I’m all for deception being exposed.

    Except when you do it. As noted, you make claims but fail to link to papers. And you keep whining about the onerous school vaccine requirements, but you live in a state where it is easy to get an exemption.

  316. #319 W. Kevin Vicklund
    February 2, 2012

    Longish post in moderation detailing how the antigens in vaccines have to be transported through the lymphatic system (a major portion of the immune system) before they can get into the bloodstream (also noting that often the antigens detected are because they have been taken up by immune cells).

  317. #320 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    Ugh, another comment in moderation.

    Todd, here is an article I linked to about how much it cost California during that epidemic:
    Pediatric hospital admissions for measles. Lessons from the 1990 epidemic.
    West J Med. 1996 Jul-Aug; 165(1-2): 20–25.

    Mr. Schecter, if you dislike the public health rules, then get together with other like minded parents and open up a school that ignores all government regulations. From public health, ADA and fire protection, because they are all so “immoral.”

  318. #321 herr doktor bimler
    February 2, 2012

    Sid Offit @292:
    May 5. A risk assessment of thimerosal use in childhood vaccines finds no evidence of harm from the use of thimerosal as a preservative, other than redness and swelling at the injection site.

    Thank you for the explanation. It omits the crucial element of causation from your comment #265 (“thimerisol was pulled because no one knew”).

  319. #322 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    herr doktor bimler:

    Thank you for the explanation. It omits the crucial element of causation from your comment #265 (“thimerisol was pulled because no one knew”).

    You mean he was being deceptive? Even those he says “I’m all for deception being exposed.”

    Oh, and the SV40 problem was found by real researchers and resolved fifty years ago. It is kind of deceptive to still harp on it. Even worse than going on about thimerosal still being in influenza vaccines, when half do not contain any.

  320. #323 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    @Chris

    I do have another suggestion for you and your sock puppet friends: if the immunization requirements for school is too much of a burden, then start your own school.

    As I’ve said private schools are not exempt, so it wouldn’t do much good. But let’s look at what a private school in a perfect world without either compulsory education or compulsory vaccination would look like.

    You all could run your own private school where all public health rules are ignored. There would be no immunization requirements,

    You make the mistake that many collectivists do: You assume the only way people act rationally is if forced by government. There wouldn’t be public health rules but the school, if the owners and parents thought it were a good idea, could adopt policies formerly mandated by law. They could even require vaccination to attend. Then other schools would emerge not requiring vaccination. Then the immunocompromised could attend school with perfect protection – not even the religious exemptions many of you argue put them at risk today. Everyone would get what they wanted.

    the restrooms would not be supplied with soap (because washing hands after using the toilet is another onerous gov’t rule!),

    The government regulated bathrooms in the government schools I attended were so vile no one would use them. I don’t think the private sector could do much worse.

    no one would care if the lunch room properly washed the dishes or kept food at a proper temperature and there would be absolutely no access to upper floors except by stairs (because no one attending would ever need evil gov’t required ADA accommodations).

    I’m sure the kids would notice. They’d tell their parents and changes would be made. If someone got sick due to negligent food handling, a lawsuit could be initiated.

    And there would definitely never be an evil gov’t sanctioned “school zone speed limit” on the nearby streets, since kids who cannot get out of the way of speeding cars do not deserve to be educated in your school.

    Since the nation was built around government roads it may be hard to get them into private hands; so let’s say that’s something we let the government control – for now. As such, there would be speed limits. In the parking lot, the school would decide speed limits. I’m not certain the school would attract many customers with speeding cars zooming all over.

    Also remember you should have the parents build the school without any evil gov’t permits, because those building codes are stupid. Why bother with earthquake codes, or even having a fire alarm? If the kids see a fire they should put it out and never ever call 911, an evil gov’t number.

    No red tape, less expensive to build schools, more affordable education for all. And no reason why a school cannot contract with a private company to provide firefighting services.

    Also there should be no health classes, the only sex education would be “keep your pants zipped up!”, no science classes (all those silly laws from some guy called “Newton”, and “evolution is only a theory”), no history (don’t want the kids to learn about the Black Plague or how Pizarro conquered the Inca), English classes would only read Ayn Rand books (the seniors would love the introduction of Galt with a rape scene) and the civics class (also known as American Government) would consist of explaining how everyone outside the school is a communist.

    Schools would compete on curriculum. Some would teach intelligent design and abstinence others Jay Gould, Ernst Mayr and how to put on a condom without using one’s hands

    The high school seniors would never be shown how to sign up for FAFSA, and be told to only apply to certain private schools, that they would need to pay for themselves. No gov’t loans allowed.
    Good old student aid and the push to drive everyone into college, necessary or not. Even Obama, I think, is beginning to realize how the government has created a bubble in education costs. More unintended consequences of “doing good.”

    And if the school has an outbreak of measles or pertussis, ignore the county health department and never close. Show those wimpy Waldorf schools that closed because of pertussis that you have to totally ignore public health!

    Again that policy would be determined by those at the school. I’d support sick kids staying home.

    Power to the people!

  321. #324 Sid offit
    February 2, 2012

    I’ll get to you all. My first response to Chris is in moderation. Be patient.

  322. #325 herr doktor bimler
    February 2, 2012

    For the record I was not accusing Sid offit of being deceptive. I prefer the word “tendentious” as it is longer.

  323. #326 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    @Feldspar

    Anyone know the name of this fallacy? It’s one of Sid’s favorites. “Under existing precondition X, an individual’s chance of encountering negative outcome Y is small. Therefore, they should feel free to take actions which alter or destroy precondition X, assuming that the probability of Y will magically remain unchanged and small.”

    I don’t think there is such a fallacy because the action is entirely rational. If it’s not, I’d like to hear why it isn’t. And I’m afraid my not vaxxing won’t alter much of anything. So the argument, if it is to be sustained, must descend into the realm of what ifs.
    ————————
    @Krebiozen
    You confuse placing at risk with failing to provide protection. When rates dropped some degree of protection was removed.
    ——————
    Ren

    Just joking about the outting. Have been thinking of going with my real name but have become attached to “Sid” And it has notheing to do with Sid Offit the great writer or whatever. I have no idea who that is and why would anyone pick him for a vax debate psyudonym? (last part not directed at you Ren) Anyway:

    You don’t even give them the benefit of the doubt in any of your writings on your blog

    CDC, etc., does a good job building them up.

    But do you parrot scientifically inaccurate and misleading information about SUV’s on several blogs and social networks when you don’t buy an SUV? Do you debate SUV drivers about how stupid or idiotic they are?

    I’d like to see examples of parroting bad info and calling vaxxers stupid for vaxxing in a debate.

    What I do is point out falsehoods exagerations etc. It wouldn’t make me anti SUVs if the company said they never tipped over and I pointed out that wasn’t true. I might even say that’s the risk you take if you want the space, etc.

  324. #327 Science Mom
    February 2, 2012

    So, if the FDA itself admits that it cannot provide good scientific data to argue these claims, why hell are all of you?

  325. #329 Reuben
    February 2, 2012

    The sock puppet is back (in more ways than one).

  326. #330 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    As I’ve said private schools are not exempt, so it wouldn’t do much good.

    I believe Chemmomo revealed that bit of deception from you.

    You must have missed the link about the East Bay Waldorf School in El Sobrante, CA closing for a while in 2008 due to a pertussis outbreak. The article in the link says:

    The state averages a 99 percent immunization rate. But at East Bay Waldorf School, health officials say less than 50 percent are protected from the disease and say that’s why it was able to spread so easily.

    As Chemmomo said: “Quit your whining.”

    Or as Science Mom said: “They don’t; you just don’t like the options when you want to act like a spoiled fuckwit. ZOMG, poor wittle poopsie has to fill out some paperwork. Grow the fuck up Bob.”

  327. #331 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    @missmay

    Eating has tangible benefits so I’ll risk the contamination risks.

    As to tricking the immune system, just using mainstream medical terminology:

    to accomplish this, vaccines against specific infections need to “trick” the immune system into responding to the vaccine in the same way as it would the infection but without causing an illness.

    As to no clear idea let’s try this one. And I know it’s only one study, etc., and the literature is mixed but it’s a concern nonetheless:
    Kids who get chickenpox may be less likely to develop atopic dermatitis and asthma when they’re older than their peers who don’t get chickenpox – including those that are vaccinated against it, suggests a new study.

    No links due to spam filter concerns.

    And doucheweasel? Is that really a word?

  328. #332 lilady
    February 2, 2012

    Tamara Ugo: Weren’t you and your morphing sock puppets banned from this blog?

  329. #333 Science Mom
    February 2, 2012

    And your point exactly was Tamara? Oh wait, it looks like her posts are going poof.

  330. #334 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    My comment is also in moderation, but Mr. Schecter said:

    No red tape, less expensive to build schools, more affordable education for all. And no reason why a school cannot contract with a private company to provide firefighting services.

    No, you must follow what Ayn Rand wrote in Atlas Shrugged, have the the kids show their egoism by putting the fires out themselves!

    (it was a terrible book, but at least I read it)

  331. #335 Narad
    February 2, 2012

    Since the nation was built around government roads it may be hard to get them into private hands; so let’s say that’s something we let the government control – for now.

    The “nation was built” only starting in 1956? Or would you like to push back to Route 66? The Federal Aid Highway Act of 1921? Of 1916? Are you sure the nation wasn’t “built around” railways?

  332. #336 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    Chris, I’ve found the use of vulgarities inversely proportional to the strength of one argument.

  333. #337 Lawrence
    February 2, 2012

    Wow – thanks for admitting that the arguments over at AoA are completely baseless, again, based on their profligate use of profanities to describe opposition to their views….

  334. #338 Sauceress
    February 2, 2012

    The quotes attributed to me in post 285 by the looser sock puppeteer, actually belong to Th1Th2.

  335. #339 lilady
    February 2, 2012

    No, no, no Chris…you need only listen to the Newt Gingrich interview on ABC News…”expanding” on his statement, “Poor kids need to learn how to work”:

    “Look,” Gingrich said, “at a time when you have up to 43% black teenage unemployment, you have entire communities that are devastated, you have neighborhoods where nobody has worked and nobody has any habit of work … ”

    “Young children who are poor ought to learn how to go to work,” he continued. “What I’ve said is, for example, it would be great if inner city schools and poor neighborhood schools actually hired the children to do things. Some of the things they could do is work in the library, work in the front office. Some of them frankly, could be janitorial … ”

    “[W]hat if they cleaned out the bathrooms and what if they mopped the floors? What if in the summer they repainted the school? What if in that process they were actually learning to work, learning to earn money, they had money on their own, they didn’t have to become a pimp or a prostitute or a drug dealer, they had money on their own?

    “Now that’s not a casual comment,” Gingrich said. “It actually grows out of a lot of thinking over many years of trying to figure out how do we break out people trapped in poverty who have no habits of work.”

  336. #340 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    Mr. Schecter, which is why I do not use them. Work on your reading comprehension, notice the very subtle hints: the quotation marks at the beginning and end of that paragraph, and the words preceding it that say “Or as Science Mom said:”

    Now stop denying you live in a state that does not allow vaccine exemptions.

  337. #341 Narad
    February 2, 2012

    My posts are going “poof” thanks to the pathetic silencing of those who challenge “orac” (and in turn all of you “sheeple” – as someone else so kindly put it)

    No, they’re going “poof” thanks to your pathetic sockpuppetry. Are you a write-only device, or did you miss that part?

  338. #342 Shay
    February 2, 2012

    Sid@308 – the nation was built around commercial transportation routes (navigable natural waterways, canals, roads and railroads), almost none of which were under any type of government oversight until the 20th century.

  339. #343 Shay
    February 2, 2012

    Sid@308 – the nation was built around commercial transportation routes (navigable natural waterways, canals, roads and railroads), almost none of which were under any type of government oversight until the 20th century.

  340. #344 W. Kevin Vicklund
    February 2, 2012

    Chris, I’ve found the use of vulgarities inversely proportional to the strength of one argument.

    Odd, I’ve observed that they have no correlation to strength of argument. Sure that’s not a case of confirmation bias, Bob?

  341. #345 dedicated lurker
    February 2, 2012

    I think Tamara has her write-protection tab still in position.

  342. #346 Narad
    February 2, 2012

    Say, Th1Th2, do you still maintain that the ability to replicate is the sine qua non for vaccines delivered mucosally?

  343. #347 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    Along with his issues understanding basic mathematics, I see Mr. Schecter has issues with reading. He has been told multiple times that his state allows philosophical vaccine exemptions, yet he keeps repeating that the rules are unjust and “immoral.”

    He has still not explained what he meant with “an immoral program.”

  344. #348 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    Herr Docktor

    Thank you for the explanation. It omits the crucial element of causation from your comment #265 (“thimerisol was pulled because no one knew”).

    You’re being unclear as to your point.
    ————————————
    @Chris

    which is why I do not use them. Work on your reading comprehension, notice the very subtle hints: the quotation marks at the beginning and end of that paragraph, and the words preceding it that say “Or as Science Mom said:”

    Never said you used them or disparaged you for doing so.

    Now stop denying you live in a state that does not allow vaccine exemptions.

    I’ve never denied that. I do assert many parents are led to believe exemptions don’t exist. And what are they exemptions to? Forced vaccination. Let’s just do away with them. And to pretend all is well because Cali is somewhat reasonable does not address the duress inflicted upon parents in more backward states.

    Even worse than going on about thimerosal still being in influenza vaccines, when half do not contain any.

    Not me.

    SV40 problem was found by real researchers and resolved fifty years ago

    Read The Virus and the Vaccine [P93] to learn how it was resolved: Children were knowingly given the vaccine even when the contamination was brought to light
    —————–
    JGC

    The half-life of ethyl mercury in children following immunization has been measured and found to be slightly less than 4 days: circulating levels of ethyl mercury return to the pre-immunization baseline within 30 days following immunization.

    I believe those studes were done well after the removal which reinforces my original point, And have you come across those epi studies on vaccines in general not causing autism?
    ————–
    Todd W

    You reinforce my point about conditions being the main determinant of measles severity. After all your story is about a religious cult where malnutrition was present and some families had eleven children. If that was not the case why have death averaged perhaps 1-3,000 in Europe recently?

  345. #349 Th1Th2
    February 2, 2012

    A vaccine is not injected into the bloodstream.

    Oh look! Vascular tree—from your definition of injection.

    It is injected into the extrcellular space in muscle or fatty tissue (depending on the vaccine).

    It is injected into fatty tissues where they can be absorbed by surrounding vascular networks.

    This space is filled with what is called interstitial fluid.

    And this interstitial flows into venules where they can enter the venous circulation.

    This fluid slowly drains into lymph vessels, where the fluid is now called lymph,

    The lymph is not a circulating fluid.

    which drain into lymph nodes, and then eventually to other organs such as the spleen, and finally drains into the bloodstream.

    The vaccine antigen released from the injection site essentially reach the marginal zones of the spleen and regional nodes through the blood (the vascular tree).

    Note that antigenemia assays detect both raw antibody and APCs, so antigenemia assys may merely be detecting normal immune response to anitgen.

    It’s antigenemia; it’s not a an antibody titer.

  346. #350 Th1Th2
    February 2, 2012

    Hey W. Kevin Vicklund,

    Are you going to write them up? This one is from Genentech Inc.

    The vaccine is made from an antigen isolated or produced from the disease-causing microorganism. The vaccine is injected into the blood stream. The B cells in the blood stream respond to the antigen by producing antibodies. The antibodies bind to the antigen to “neutralize”or inactivate it. In addition, memory cells are produced and remain ready to mount a quick protective immune response against subsequent infection with the same disease causing agent.

    h_ttp://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/making_vaccines.php

    Lying again?

  347. #351 lilady
    February 2, 2012

    Oh, look at the picture from Genentech on the link that Thingy provided…it is obviously an IM injection…and the narrative is a “quicky” version of what Kevin Vicklund posted.

    The subject is the Hepatitis B vaccine which is not administered IV. How does the vaccine get to the bloodstream after it is administered in the muscle?

  348. #352 Narad
    February 2, 2012

    Everyone would get what they wanted.

    Except for those who don’t want to reenact the “Good Old Days” for the sake of indulging some whiny crank’s adolescent fantasy. Go introduce a ballot proposition and see how you fare. Rational choices and all that, right?

  349. #353 Th1Th2
    February 2, 2012

    Oh, look at the picture from Genentech on the link that Thingy provided…it is obviously an IM injection…and the narrative is a “quicky” version of what Kevin Vicklund posted.

    The subject is the Hepatitis B vaccine which is not administered IV. How does the vaccine get to the bloodstream after it is administered in the muscle?

    You want a “quicky” route to the bloodstream? Try IV otherwise try the slower routes (IM or SQ)

    Are you really a nurse or a nurse aide?

  350. #354 Narad
    February 2, 2012

    Are you really a nurse or a nurse aide?

    I’m sure everyone is still dying to hear more about your self-proclaimed “medical background,” Th1Th2.

  351. #355 lilady
    February 2, 2012

    @ Narad: Good luck to you with your quest to determine exactly what sort of education, professional licensing and on-the-job-hospital experience Thingy possesses.

    Thingy already pulled that “bloodstream stunt” with its reference to the PKIDs immunization narrative. Kevin Vicklund contacted PKIDs and the wording was changed.

    Why doesn’t Humpty answer Sauceress’ questions?

  352. #356 herr doktor bimler
    February 2, 2012

    Sid Offit:
    You’re being unclear as to your point.

    You presented your theory of causation and motivation — “thimerisol was pulled because no one knew” — and called it a fact. My point is to dispute the ‘factuality’ part, because another explanation is available (“thimerisol was pulled in a well-meaning but futile attempt to placate a network of magical-thinking alarmists”).

    The issue, if I understand you, is not so much whether a particular vaccine preservative is safe, as whether the “vaccination establishment” was *reckless* in allowing its use at a time when its safety had not been established (causing them to phase it out when they realised that recklessness). Is that a fair statement of your position?

  353. #357 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    Mr. Schecter (in a comment where he now denies saying to me “Chris, I’ve found the use of vulgarities inversely proportional to the strength of one argument.”):

    Actually, instead of reading stuff journalists with an agenda, I prefer reading the actual studies, and even Carbone admits that the data merits a “meh”:

    It appears unlikely that SV40 infection alone is sufficient to cause human malignancy, as we did not observe an epidemic of cancers following the administration of SV40-contaminated vaccines. However, it seems possible that SV40 may act as a cofactor in the pathogenesis of some tumors. In vitro and animal experiments showing cocarcinogenicity between SV40 and asbestos support this hypothesis.

    Yeah, like asbestos could not do it by itself. There were no polio vaccines when Liberty Ships were being built.

    Oh, and then there is information from the guy who found the virus and helped remove it: Discovery of simian virus 40 (SV40) and its relationship to poliomyelitis virus vaccines. And that was fifty years ago. Get over it.

    Now explain what you mean by an “immoral program.”

  354. #358 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    Rats, I left out the blockquote…
    Mr. Schecter (in a comment where he now denies saying to me “Chris, I’ve found the use of vulgarities inversely proportional to the strength of one argument.”):

    Read The Virus and the Vaccine [P93] to learn how it was resolved: Children were knowingly given the vaccine even when the contamination was brought to light

    Then I will take this chance to post another relevant article:
    Poliovirus vaccine, SV40, and human cancer:

    SV40 was discovered by Maurice Hilleman in 1960 as a contaminant of poliovirus vaccine. It was present in batches of both the Salk and Sabin poliovirus vaccines produced and distributed from 1954 to 1963. The source was the rhesus and cynomolgous monkey kidney cells used to produce the vaccine. Even more troubling was the observation that SV40 could cause tumors in hamsters. By 1963 screening procedures were instituted to ensure the absence of SV40 in poliovirus vaccines.

    and…

    Even if SV40 DNA were definitively shown to be present in human tumors, this would not answer the question of whether the virus caused the cancer. The debate on the role of SV40 in human malignancy illustrates the difficulty in establishing cause and effect, and provides ample impetus for using genomic technologies to ensure that vaccines and other biological products are free of adventitious agents.

    It has been fifty years, get over it. Plus all pediatric vaccines have thimerosal free versions (that includes most of the DTaP and half of the influenza vaccines) for almost a decade. Get over it.

  355. #359 lilady
    February 2, 2012

    Chris points out that people who worked in the shipyards building ships and people who served aboard those ships during World War II, were exposed to asbestos, a known carcinogen. IIRC, most of them did not receive the polio vaccines when they became available. The targeted group who received those vaccines during 1954-1963 were kids born just prior to the war, “war babies” and younger children.

    Where is the bumper crop of cancer patients born 75-49 years ago, whose cancer has been determined to be caused by SV-40?

    Offal, why don’t you just admit that you are a libertarian who tried to find his “niche” blogging about fluoridation…then switched to the “cause de jour”, vaccines?

  356. #360 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    Bimler
    The Cutter Incident: How America’s First Polio Vaccine Led to the Growing …
    By Paul A. Offit P185 – removed cause discovered possibly exceeded EPA limits. Nothing about magical thinkers preceding the removal.

    But no, I don’t think you could call it reckless. Is just something that can happen in the world of science and medicine.

    @Chris
    Force used against innocent people is immoral.

    It is immoral to force, coerce, pressure, trick, mandate or compel parents to vaccinate their children against the will of those parents. And give me a break about Cali letting parents escape. There are a majority of states that don’t. Do you support the repeal of these laws. Should the government mandate parents vaccinate? And what does a parent in West Virginia do I she can’t home school. She is forced to vaccinate.

  357. #361 Ren
    February 2, 2012

    I congratulate my friends and colleagues trying to debate Mr. Schecter. This going around in circles is doing weird things to my inner ear.

    Schools are bad, then they’re so good that unvaxed kids should go, then they’re bad, then they’re good. I almost puked twice reading his comments.

    By the way, I’m flying tomorrow. I’ll try out that whole “not letting the government force me into doing something” when it comes to getting through security and tell you how it works out… If they have internet access for me in Guantanamo.

  358. #362 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    Mr. Schecter:

    It is immoral to force, coerce, pressure, trick, mandate or compel parents to vaccinate their children against the will of those parents. And give me a break about Cali letting parents escape. There are a majority of states that don’t.

    So you think filling out a form is too much force. My, aren’t you are a special little snowflake.

    Again, you still seem to have trouble with math concepts. Two out of fifty states is not a majority. Though less than half of the states only allow a religious exemption, there seem to be plenty of resources on some of your favorite websites to fill out those forms.

    Though I am sure that you could easily get a religious exemption with your own personal “Special Little Snowflake Church.” You could turn the school that defies public health measures into a parochial school attached to your church. Then all of you who feel that the world is obligated to yourself and no one else can be separate from the rest of us.

  359. #363 Narad
    February 2, 2012

    And what does a parent in West Virginia do I she can’t home school. She is forced to vaccinate.

    It might help if you could identify where that was codified, because everyone knows that the NWO puppets were forced to back off on SB 439 by the Free Mountaineers a long time ago.

  360. #364 Narad
    February 2, 2012

    (And, no, 16-3-4 doesn’t do it unless you have case law.)

  361. #365 Narad
    February 2, 2012

    Finally, Bob, I suggest that you read the decision of the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals in Workman v. Mingo County Bd. Educ.:

    M.W. did not attend school again until 2008, when she was admitted into a Head Start Program that accepted Dr. MacCallum’s certificate. However, when M.W. aged out of that program, Mingo County Schools would not admit her; accordingly, Workman homeschooled M.W.

  362. #366 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    Mr. Schecter:

    And what does a parent in West Virginia do I she can’t home school. She is forced to vaccinate.

    Oh, that poor special little snowflake! Why should I be sympathetic when those were the types that brought on a pertussis epidemic in my county when my baby needed herd immunity?

    Due to the efforts of Barbara Loe Fisher and the anti-vax fearmongers in the UK, he was denied the DTP vaccine, and only had the DT vaccine due to a history of neonatal seizures. I had to make sure every child he came into contact with was vaccinated. I actually did ask.

    There was one mommy baby group I went to once that had one mom who felt she was entitled to ignore public health. I never went to that place again, and it was no great loss. Special little snowflakes are really annoying people who think the rest of us should just let them do what they want.

  363. #367 Narad
    February 2, 2012

    Though I am sure that you could easily get a religious exemption with your own personal “Special Little Snowflake Church.”

    Impressively, this is basically the advice that circulates regarding “religious” exemptions. New York has been taking a dim view of such boneheaded frivolities for a while now–the dreaded “sincerity testing” (hint: a copy-paste job from MDC that actually relates to unemployment insurance is a poor idea to trot out).

    And Workman ended with a nine-word cert. denied on November 14, 2011.

  364. #368 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    I just glanced at Mr. Schecter’s website. It is mostly little special snowflake whining about those terrible onerous rules, like having to fill out a form.

    He does not like increasing herd immunity with the Tdap vaccine for older children, he also downplays measles by claiming no one hardly gets it anymore (that is because of herd immunity), plus measles is not dangerous and here is something special: he whines because some said we don’t see much Scarlet Fever. He links to a Medscape page saying that it still exist in high numbers, but not many die from it because of antibiotics.

    Apparently Mr. Schecter does not know that Scarlet Fever is essentially an untreated strep infection.

  365. #369 lilady
    February 2, 2012

    @ Narad: I read the entire case. The mother claimed that an older child suffered some medical problems “around the time of early childhood immunizations”. The “medical exemption” for M.W. was written by a child psychiatrist…based on the older child’s “medical problems”. During testimony the older child’s “medical problems” were described as PDD and/or autism by the child psychiatrist. M.W. was sent to Kentucky to live with relatives and was admitted into a school there based on the mother’s Bapticostal Church religious beliefs; to wit teachings of her church do not permit a parent to harm a child.

    The mother was represented by a New York attorney Patricia Finn who advertises herself on the internet as a “New York Vaccine Exemption Specialist”, located just north of New York City in Rockland County. The mother sort injunctive relief and monetary damages, which were denied in the lower court. Amici supporting appellees (Mingo School District and local and State Health Departments) were the American Academy of Pediatrics, the State School Boards Association and Immunization Action Coalition.

    So much for a religious exemption from Special Little Snowflake Churches and a medical exemption from a child psychiatrist…based on a siblings PDD/autism.

  366. #370 Navigator
    February 2, 2012

    again, we have an actual outbreak of measles in Europe. last stats are over 7’000 in hospital and 9 deaths. Please explain your view of “anecdote” vs. data. You know, that science stuff.

  367. #371 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    Chris, you’re level of bitterness is fast approaching baglady’s. How terribly sad.

  368. #372 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    Should read *your* I know we’re graded for spelling here. Chris why do you refuse to answer my question about your support of forced vax?

  369. #373 Chris
    February 2, 2012

    Aw, you poor little special snowflake.

    I also fail at spelling, so I really don’t care. But you can easily read my comment on my opinion of special little snowflakes who endanger babies with health issues.

  370. #374 Sid Offit
    February 2, 2012

    Ren, I’ll get to you tomorrow. Have a safe flight… and enjoy your pat down.

  371. #375 lilady
    February 2, 2012

    O.K. grade me for spelling “The mother sort injunctive relief and monetary damages,..” (it sorta sounded like “sought”)

    Gee, I don’t have bitterness, Offal…nor does Chris. It seems to me when we address your fallacies and your inflated opinion of your abilities to understand science…you get bitter.

  372. #376 Narad
    February 3, 2012

    I read the entire case. The mother claimed that an older child suffered some medical problems “around the time of early childhood immunizations”.

    I haven’t read everything from start to finish, nor am I particularly inclined to. What strikes me as odd is that it started out based on a medical exemption and only afterward tried to morph into a religous case.

    And that there’s no mention of there having been a problem with homeschooling, of course.

  373. #377 Chris
    February 3, 2012

    lilady, Mr. Schecter seems to miss that there are those of us who care for those who need more medical care. He actually reminds me of the driver who would not let the ambulance by the second to the last time I rode in the front of one while my son was in the back.

    Obviously, he cannot think past his own little perfect privileged world, where every child is above average and all is happy sunshine because people do things without regulations.

    He has no idea about what he pontificates on his blog. He complains that California is increasing herd immunity by requiring that teenagers get the Tdap, yet does not understand that the reason his child’s personal chance of getting measles is because of herd immunity.

    But he and his friends are working very hard to reduce this country’s immunity to widespread measles. We are going to have a repeat of the 1990 measles outbreak, with one big difference: instead of low income inner city kids bearing the brunt, it is going to be the higher income families who ignore real science for what they “learn” from the University of Google. I keep wondering how many kids will suffer before their parents get hit with the clue-stick.

    Good night.

  374. #378 Ren
    February 3, 2012

    I’m refusing a pat-down, Bob. I refuse to give into the collectivists’ idea that we must be safe on a plane. If everyone else on the plane is screened, why worry about me? It is immoral for the government to try and make sure that people boarding a plane are safe. Their forced screenings and security checks, and the pilots’ certifications, and everything else good for the collective is bad for you… I mean me…

    See what I did there?

  375. #379 lilady
    February 3, 2012

    You stick up for your inalienable rights Ren…just show them that they can’t push you around. It’s the age of “patient and passenger choice”.

    I’m so glad that we have our young libertarian junior senator Rand Paul who refused a “pat down” to foil the TSA…what a hero and a true American.

    Have an nice safe flight, Ren.

  376. #380 Todd W.
    February 3, 2012

    @Sid

    You reinforce my point about conditions being the main determinant of measles severity. After all your story is about a religious cult where malnutrition was present and some families had eleven children. If that was not the case why have death averaged perhaps 1-3,000 in Europe recently?

    Where are you getting this malnutrition bit? Please present your evidence.

    And besides, you were implying that measles is not a killer. So, does it kill or not?

  377. #381 Ren
    February 3, 2012

    I got pulled over on my way to the airport at three in morning. The officer asked me if I was in a hurry. I told him I had to catch a plane at six. He saw me do the California roll on a stop sign and then speed off at a “phenomenal rate”. I agreed. I was being stupid. So he checked my record and came back, letting me off with a warning. He told me to slow down and live to enjoy my trip. Indeed.

    Before I drove off I asked him a quick question. “If everyone around me is driving safe, why worry about me?”
    “Because you could be the one that ruins everyone’s plans for today.”

    Ain’t that the goddamn truth?

    ps: I explained to him that I asked because I had a similar concept to explain to a child named Bob.

  378. #382 Sid Offit
    February 3, 2012

    Todd W

    From your first link:

    A family in the Altoona, Pa., branch of the Faith Tabernacle Congregation is currently facing prosecution for the death last month of 8-year-old Clayton Nixon, who died of malnutrition and dehydration after suffering from an untreated ear infection.

    You do understand life in a religious cult differs from the life of a normal person? Is measles a “killer” because in rare cases it can cause death? No, no more that a baseball player who hits one or two home runs a year can be called a home run hitter. Measles can’t be both a mild illness and a killer. Since the result is almost always a mild illness, that is how the measles should be classified.

  379. #383 Sid Offit
    February 3, 2012

    Ren, I guess having to get up early predisposes one to bad analogies.

  380. #384 Denice Walter
    February 3, 2012

    I’d like to address this in a more global fashion- bear with me-

    Many vaccine critics come from a background that does not include life science or psychology, thus their approach is unlike that of a person who has studied formally. AoA’s Anne Dachel asks, “Why do Autism ‘Experts’ Know So Little: the DSM-5 Debacle”: this title neatly summarises an attitude that is prevalent in the alt med community.

    Often their criticisms – including the web woo-meisters I survey- focus on a single study and then ask questions – in piece-meal fashion: they do no look at the consensus about a topic which is dismissed as the “orthodoxy opinion” or “propaganda”. Data compiled by governments or professional bodies are similarly inadmissable because they are not “independent”: universities are compromised by ties to corporations and vested interests. So what’s left?

    Usually, they fix their sights upon odd, poorly done research from the margins, not the mainstream. When I first read AJW’s research ( c. 1998-9), it didn’t fit in with what I knew about neuro-development: it didn’t “make sense” to me. And I advised my worried cousin to not fear vaccines ( Oct 2001)- why would I give a person I care for so much , who waited so long for a child, such bad advice?

    Autism and vaccines given to babies/ toddlers seemed unlikely to have *anything* to do with autism because of what I knew about the brain; I predict that- more and more- we’ll see earlier indicators of autism ( we already have seen genetic, facial proportion, brain structure, gaze pattern, brain wave differences) that will make earlier diagnosis possible. Presently- because autism involves deficits in communication and social abilities- we diagnose based on the development of those abilities which take place after age 1-2. However, there are antecedents, like gaze, and imaging techniques that can be applied.

    Critics of vaccines will attack each of those demonstrations ( early indicators) piece meal and not see the entire panoramic view. Their attacks on vaccine supporters or critics of AJW proceed in the same manner.

  381. #385 Chris
    February 3, 2012

    Sid Offit:

    You do understand life in a religious cult differs from the life of a normal person? Is measles a “killer” because in rare cases it can cause death?

    Evidence of cherry picking. I see you did not read the article I posted on the same epidemic, only in California.

    So, do tell us if Roald Dahl and Patricia Neal were parents who malnourished their children. I am curious what kind of excuses you will give for what happened to their oldest child.

  382. #386 JGC
    February 3, 2012

    Sid re studies addressing vaccine safety re: autism

    Basically you’re asking me to cite every study investigating vaccine safety, as well as every phase II and III clinical trial for all vaccines as well as all post-approval surveillance results for all vaccines approved—in short, everything I’ve read concerning vaccine safety over the past 12 years or so. I believe that to be a task beyond the scope of this forum–you’re asking for the equivalent of a graduate seminar in vaccine safety.

    That said I suggest you start start with “A population-based study of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and autism” Madsen et al, N Engl J Med. 2002 Nov 7;347(19):1477-82; “Association between thimersosal-containing vaccine and autism” Hviid et.al, JAMA. 2003 Oct 1;290(13):1763-6 and “Neurological and autoimmune disorders after vaccination against pandemic influenza A (H1N1) with a monovalent adjuvanted vaccine; population based cohort study in Stockholm, Sweden” Bardage et al BMJ. 2011 Oct 12;343.

    But you’ve got me wondering–do you actually believe that we are currently experiencing an ‘autism epidemic’—that the actual number of individuals exhibiting autistic behavior has increased?

    If so, why are you ignoring the fact that changes in diagnostic criteria which broadened the scope of autism spectrum disorders has resulted in diagnostic substitution (people who previously would have been diagnosed with something other than autism–mental retardation, for exampl–are now instead identified as being on the broadened autistic spectrum) and the fact that there is today increased surveillance for autistic spectrum disorders(i.e., we’re both more likely to consider the possibility of autism and more capable of identifying those on the autistic spectrum than we were previously).

  383. #387 Chris
    February 3, 2012

    Mr. Schecter, continuing on your dismissal on the severity of measles: How about the baby who was hospitalized in San Diego from measles caught by a child of another special little snowflake brought into a clinic? Were his parents in a cult or starving him? You can listen to the mother on NPR’s “This American Life” #370.

    And speaking of measles and hospitals, please provide what evidence you have that treating measles is more cost effective than preventing it with two MMR doses. As I mentioned before, their is some information on how much it cost California in 1990. You can use monetary inflation data to figure out how much four to five days of hospital care respiratory support, and antibiotics for secondary bacterial infections would cost.

    You might also wish to read The Clinical Significance of Measles: A Review. And again, you are to use actual data and not try to muck it up by claiming the odds are low in the USA for even catching measles, especially when you are actively working to reduce the herd immunity.

  384. #388 Denice Walter
    February 3, 2012

    @ JGC:

    While those increases (1990s) resulted from the DSM IV’s appearance, we are now on the brink of another transformation as DSM-5 will soon appear. AoA seems to be worried that now numbers *may* drop as many presently included will be excluded- there have been quite a few articles concerning this. Let the conspiracy mongering begin!

  385. #389 missmayinga
    February 3, 2012

    Sid @333

    You reinforce my point about conditions being the main determinant of measles severity. After all your story is about a religious cult where malnutrition was present and some families had eleven children. If that was not the case why have death averaged perhaps 1-3,000 in Europe recently?

    Oh, come on. A 1-in-3000 death rate, and you’re acting like that’s no big deal? If there was a vaccine that caused that death rate, you’d be screaming it from the bloody rooftops. Why is a 1-3000 death rate from measles an acceptable risk to take, but the extremely rare risk of side effects from a vaccine completely unacceptable?

  386. #390 Chris
    February 3, 2012

    missmayinga, oh, but it gets better: he claims measles is not such a big deal because very few people in the USA get it! He is actually depending on the herd immunity to keep that statement true, yet he is working to undermine that particular factor! If he keeps it up, we will be just like Europe with several tens of thousands of cases, thousands of hospitalizations and several deaths.

    This is where he demonstrates is total lack of critical thinking skills. Much like he has shown his lack of math and reading literacy.

  387. #391 stewartt1982
    February 3, 2012

    @374 – missmayinga

    hear, hear.

    When I saw Sid mention a 1 in 3000 death rate as something acceptable or “not killer” I had to re-read to make sure I hadn’t made a mistake. Sid cannot seem to grasp that the number of deaths are small now, because so many people are vaccinated … that the numbers would be much higher if less people were vaccinated.

    Is anyone else sick of hearing Sid go on about personal choice in vaccines, only to trot out the standard anti-vaccine tropes? Despite his protests, in the end he seems anti-vaccine using the cover of libertarianism.

  388. #392 dt
    February 3, 2012

    @Sid:

    “Measles can’t be both a mild illness and a killer. Since the result is almost always a mild illness, that is how the measles should be classified.”

    So I take it you are happy that since vaccines are almost always harmless, that’s how they should be classified?

  389. #393 Heliantus
    February 3, 2012

    Mr Shecter

    You do understand life in a religious cult differs from the life of a normal person?

    I would like you to define “normal person” first. Especially in the context of religious cults in America.
    Or at least, what was so different in the lifestyle of these people compared to the surrounding communities?
    From the (admittedly biased) point of view of an outsider like myself, being part of a small religious community is the norm in the USA.
    Your argument is way too close to the No True Scotsman fallacy.

  390. #394 Todd W.
    February 3, 2012

    It’s also interesting how Bob takes the statement that one of the children was malnourished to imply that malnutrition was common among that community.

    As to your baseball analogy: if something kills, it is, by definition, a killer. If it does not kill, then it is not a killer. Let’s turn it about a bit, shall we? “He only successfully steals once out of every 3,000 times he goes to a store, but he’s not a thief.”

    At any rate, my prediction #3 was correct. Do I get Randi’s million?

  391. #395 Krebiozen
    February 3, 2012

    Is measles a “killer” because in rare cases it can cause death?

    I continue to be bemused about this approach to risk assessment. Is drunk driving a “killer” because in rare cases it can cause death? Fatal accidents occur at a rate of about 1.25 per 100 million miles traveled. Driving while just over the blood alcohol limit increases the chances of a fatal accident about 10-fold. That means you would expect about 12.5 fatal accidents per 100 million miles traveled. If you assume that the average drive home from the bar is 20 miles, you would expect to drive home from the bar drunk 400,000 times before you caused a fatal accident.

    It’s so rare it makes you wonder why people make such a fuss about it. I suppose they do because about 18,000 people die in the US every year due to alcohol related road traffic accidents. Yet measles, with a risk of death of “just” 1 in 3,000 is an acceptable risk to subject your child to unnecessarily?

    I know these are ball-park figures, but it’s the relative risk and people’s attitude to it that confuse me. Driving 100 miles drunk with your child in the car is a lot safer than the child going through measles. Why would any sane parent take the risk of either?

  392. #397 Ren
    February 6, 2012

    *Yawn* Hola, buenos dias. What’d I miss?

  393. #398 lilady
    February 6, 2012

    @ Ren: Well we have a persistent “hygienist” troll who keeps digging herself in deeper with her nonsense. The troll brags about not getting her 3 (or 4) children immunized against measles. Troll is also clueless and uncaring about the number of people who were exposed to her 3 (or 4) children with measles, when they were aboard airplanes and at airports.

  394. #399 Ren
    February 6, 2012

    @lilady

    Oh, one of those? Haven’t seen those in a while.

    So I met a kid in Mexico who had lost his hearing to a severe H. flu infection. He’d gone on to live a normal life except for not hearing and not speaking because he didn’t learn to speak. By some nutjobs’ thinking, he should be happy he has lifelong immunity or some other messed up nonsense like that.

    I like how Bob calls us collectivist fearmongers if measles kills 1 in thousands, but he’s not a fearmonger when he points, screams, and cries bloody murder at the rarer-than-that vaccine reactions. The family in Mexico got a chuckle out of my stories about Señor Bob, the man who yearns to be free from the yoke of vaccines.

  395. #400 lilady
    February 6, 2012

    @ Ren: Don’t be too harsh on Senor Offal…he never learned about vaccine-preventable diseases while attending a fourth tier college for his degree in “fire science”.

    Besides, he lives in a white enclave and his kids are never near little brown babies.

  396. #401 lilady
    February 6, 2012

    Hmmm, I guess Offal hasn’t had any sex education, or training in the routes of transmission for STDs, as well:

    From Offal’s Facebook page, February 1, 2012:

    “American Academy of Pushers goes against the science and recommends the cervical cancer vaccine to those without a cervix.”

    (I think Offal is referring to the recommendations from the American Academy of Pediatrics for boys to receive the HPV vaccine)

    How’s that radio career working out for you Offal? Any more bookings? (hint) Do not supply your “agent” with your debut radio commentary…you came off like a fool, talking about “freedom of choice” and the mailing of infectious lollipops.

  397. #402 DW
    February 6, 2012

    Attention: Collectivist Fearmongers!

    Meeting/ Dinner Tuesday @ 7
    @ the New Taj Mahal ( across from Kreb’s lab)
    BYOB, gentlemen ( ladies, bring your gorgeous selves)
    Topic for discussion: GSK ( what else?)
    Be there or be square.

  398. #403 Ren
    February 6, 2012

    As a White conservative libertarian, Señor Schecter has probably never heard of men getting throat cancer from HPV from, you know, doing “that”.

    I’d suggest he look up the definition of vector, as in “Penises are good vectors for HPV infection in women.” Not every parent cares enough to check the boyfriend’s junk before letting their daughters out of the house. At least, I won’t.

    That’s right, I wrote “penis” but had a hard time mentioning “that”.

  399. #404 Denice Walter
    February 6, 2012

    @ Ren:

    And there is the matter of that *other* sort of cancer that they can get via the same vector. Now there are two words that you can avoid mentioning.

    -btw- please don’t judge all the whities by him: some of us realise that whiteness is merely a trick nature that played upon us even tho’ it probably benefits us economically.

  400. #405 Th1Th2
    February 6, 2012

    So I take it you are happy that since vaccines are almost always harmless, that’s how they should be classified?

    You are an infection promoter, that’s how you should be classified. And you’d think people will be happy?

  401. #406 lilady
    February 6, 2012

    @ Ren & Denice: Adolescents and teens who are “technical virgins”…whether or not they take the “chastity pledge”, are still at risk for HPV infections.

    Wearing a condom or using a dental dam affords some protection against the virus. Sexually active people still become infected in the oral cavity, their rectum and the areas surrounding the vagina and the penis (I wouldn’t want to use those “other” words)

  402. #407 Chris
    February 7, 2012

    Ren:

    As a White conservative libertarian, Señor Schecter has probably never heard of men getting throat cancer from HPV from, you know, doing “that”.

    Now you made me feel sorry for his wife. It looks like he is more of a “bing-bang-thank-you-mam” kind of guy.

  403. #408 lilady
    February 7, 2012

    @ Chris: Even when you are a modern parent and you provide good education about “that” and you question your teens about “that”…teens lie You know when your teens are lying, if their mouths are moving.

  404. #409 Chris
    February 7, 2012

    lilady, exactly. All I ask is that they are very careful.

    Though it is a pity about Mrs. Schecter.

  405. #410 lilady
    February 7, 2012

    Mrs. Offal must be very understanding…one never knows when Mr. Offal will be called away “at a moment’s notice” for a fire emergency.

  406. #411 Master Sock Puppeteer
    February 7, 2012

    The level of class found on this forum in absolutely wonderful.

  407. #412 Ren
    February 7, 2012

    Alright. I’ve been admonished by the wife about making things personal and commenting on assumptions about people’s sexual lives. I must respect Bob for not pulling a Mr. X after all this time sparring with me over the years, so I’ll keep it to the subject at hand. That written, I still believe that to not vaccinate the vectors of HPV is a lack of understanding of human sexuality and infectious disease.

  408. #413 Dana
    February 7, 2012

    Hey! Science peeps, when can we expect a safe-the-world vaccine?

  409. #414 Dana
    February 7, 2012

    Whoopsie, *save. LOL

  410. #415 lilady
    February 7, 2012

    @ Ren: I started the thread about Offal, referring to his Facebook commentary.

    Why does he have to name the AAP as the American Academy of Pushers and why is he unaware that the HPV is an STD?

    Indeed, why does he use the ‘nym of one of our most respected physician/researcher in the field of immunology?

  411. #416 Dana
    February 7, 2012

    Thanks Chris! You’re such an intelligent individual!! Keep up the good work!!!!! We’re one step closer to saving the world! Yippeeeeeeeeee

  412. #417 Ren
    February 7, 2012

    Because he knows it annoys us? Because he doesn’t know better? Take your pick. But my wife says, and she’s right, that starting to talk about Schecter’s sex life – or lack thereof – is just a little bit too much… A lot like “Stagmom” joking about a certain TV physician correspondent giving oral sex to someone at a dinner where a baby was about to be eaten. Just not cool.

  413. #418 Dana
    February 7, 2012

    Ohhh Chris, you’re too kind! *blushing*

  414. #419 Chris
    February 7, 2012

    Well, there are other reasons to feel sorry for Mrs. Schecter. And even their child, who may end up paying for his views later on in life.

    I would hate to see a child injured by the anti-science views of their parents, but Schecter, Belkin, Stagliano, Handley and others are actively reducing the herd immunity that protects their children.

  415. #420 augustine
    February 7, 2012

    Chris

    Well, there are other reasons to feel sorry for Mrs. Schecter. And even their child, who may end up paying for his views later on in life.

    I would hate to see a child injured by the anti-science views of their parents…

    YOUR child is the one you need to worry about.If the world is that dangerous to you then put him in a bubble. Sad. You’ve shown on here that you don’t give a rats @ss about anybody else’s child except for your own. Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing or not doing.

    Hush now baby, baby don’t you cry
    Mama’s gonna make all of your
    Nightmares come true
    Mama’s gonna put all of her fears into you
    Mama’s gonna keep you right here
    Under her wing
    she won’t let you fly but she might let you sing
    Mama will keep baby cosy and warm
    Ooooh Babe Ooooh Babe Ooooh Babe
    Of course Mama’s gonna help build the wall
    -Pink Floyd

  416. #421 Anton P. Nym
    February 7, 2012

    Augie, stop drinking the bong water.

    — Steve

  417. #422 Chris
    February 7, 2012

    Dana, have you ever considered living in the real world? Perhaps you should actually think very hard about your silly question.

  418. #423 Dana
    February 7, 2012

    Hey lilady, can we be friends in real life? You seem really confident and down to earth, right up my alley!

  419. #424 Chris
    February 7, 2012

    This video is about a family that learned the hard way about vaccines. The mom even says “We made the wrong decision.” And this video is how a doctor gave the family deadly advice.

  420. #425 augustine
    February 7, 2012

    Chris

    This video is about a family that learned the hard way about vaccines.

    Anecdotal stories are powerful aren’t they Chris? But now you’ve caused yourself a skeptic’s dillemma. When are anecdotes OK to use?

  421. #426 Chris
    February 7, 2012

    So, is this a another visit from cannabis troll?

  422. #427 Chris
    February 7, 2012

    Dana = banned troll.

  423. #428 Dana
    February 7, 2012

    Hey lilady, can we be friends in real life? You seem really confident and down to earth, right up my alley!

  424. #429 Lawrence
    February 7, 2012

    Damn Chris – thanks for that link. I’m sure it will come in handy at some point. Again, people forget that these diseases are still out there & do either seriously hurt or even kill children that contract them.

  425. #430 lilady
    February 7, 2012

    @ Dana: Orac is busy right now…but he will be checking your posts and applying the sock puppet ban hammer.

  426. #431 Mad, But not as in Hatter.
    February 7, 2012

    Why are @therefusers following me on twitter?

    I’m proud to be autistic and their lyrics have a reading age of 9.

  427. #432 Frank The Tank
    February 7, 2012

    Anyone care to check out these sources and debunk them? Be my guest.

    http://genesgreenbook.com/resources/obamsawin/ImmunizationGraphs-RO2009.pdf

  428. #433 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 7, 2012

    Frank –

    Orac’s addressed those graphs: The intellectual dishonesty of the “vaccines didn’t save us” gambit.

    If you have similar questions about other sources, try typing the name (such as “Obomsawin”, in this case) into the search box on the left-hand side of the page. If Orac has already debunked those claims, you can find that debunking quickly.

  429. #434 Mad, But not as in Hatter.
    February 8, 2012

    No chris, I’m that.

    Get a grip man.

  430. #435 Troll?
    February 8, 2012

    In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

    There are a lot of trolls on here. Maybe “lilady,” “Chris,” “Ren,” etc should look in the mirror. Iiiiiiidiiiiiiots

  431. #438 lilady
    February 8, 2012

    ha…ha…ha… Who let the troll smelly sock puppets in?

    -FTFY Sock Puppets!

  432. #439 shauna
    February 11, 2012

    “…a tiny minority of antivaccinationists who really are ‘pro-safe vaccine,’” *cough, raises hand*

    Although I’ll admit, my definition of a ‘safe’ vaccine is probably a bit different from most anti-vaccinationists, so that might account for it. For the most part, I’m coming at it from the perspective of someone with allergies the excipients added to some vaccines.

    It takes a lot of research, a lot of planning, a lot of help from doctors, and sometimes, I still can’t have a vaccination. There simply isn’t a vaccine for some conditions made without the excipients I can’t tolerate.

    I really do have a proven, medically determined reaction to some vaccines. Most anti-vaccinationists don’t have that. However, even if every single concern of theirs was valid. Even if vaccines caused autism in all non-breastfed kids or whatever, there is still usually this…thing…going on, with almost all anti-vaccinationsists I know. And I know a lot. There’s a lot of cross-over in the allergy crowd and anti-vaccinationist crowd. It seems to be a lack of awareness of the nature of reality, essentially.

    I have heard more people than I can count say that they shouldn’t be vaccinated because a disease is so rare that the vaccination is more risk than getting the disease would be. They seem to forget that the risk of catching this disease is lower now BECAUSE of the vaccine. It is not a naturally lowered value, and if people stop getting vaccinated, the risk is going to go back up.

    Just because one doesn’t trust vaccines – for whatever reason – does not in any way negate their positive effects on the eradication of disease.

    I have a hard time understanding how people think that their decisions to not vaccinate are essentially freebies in terms of consequences. Yes, by avoiding a vaccine, I avoid a potentially life-threatening reaction (me, personally, I mean). I’m making that choice, because, you know, I choose life. But I have to accept that this means I may catch more diseases AND I could pass them on to anyone I know who might be vulnerable, and I’d better be prepared to accept responsibility for that. Take precautions. Plan ahead.

    I had a friend who grew up in the back-end of nowhere, China, who was crippled by Polio. I had family members from the small village where my mother grew up who suffered from the same condition. I’ve seen the consequences. It bothers me more than I can say when I talk to folks in the USA who think that somehow, because they are NOW living in a much more disease free environment, that means that it will always be that way, no matter what anyone does.

    The whooping cough epidemic in Los Angeles in 2010, where a chunk of the increase was seen in counties where more parents were opting out of the vaccine, is a clear example of what a fallacy that is.

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