It would appear that Dr. Bob Sears, author of The Vaccine Book, is in the news again. Specifically, he’s brought himself back into the spotlight by publishing in that wretched hive of scum and quackery, The Huffington Post, a fallacy-filled attack on a bill in California, AB 2109, designed to tighten up the process for obtaining philosophical exemptions from vaccination requirements for school entry and improving the process of informed consent for parents seeking such exemptions. In this, Dr. Sears has solidly aligned himself with the worst elements of the antivaccine movement. Sadly, it is not the first time he has done so. This time around, however, an interesting little sidelight has come up that has revealed just how disingenuous and deceptive Dr. Sears can be, as you will see. But here’s a little background, for those of you not familiar with Dr. Sears.

Pretty much anyone who has an interest in issues related to vaccines, particularly regarding the antivaccine movement, has probably heard of Dr. Bob Sears. The reason, of course, is that Dr. Sears (or “Dr. Bob,” as he likes to be called), is the author of a book touting an “alternative” vaccine schedule. His book, The Vaccine Book, is the bane of pediatricians everywhere practicing science-based medicine, because many vaccine-averse parents use it as a justification for “questioning” or otherwise refusing to follow currently recommended vaccine schedule. Dr. Bob likes to present himself as somehow being more reasonable, and less “extreme” than the “two sides” in the “vaccine debate.” For example, here is an excerpt from his book:

But now almost all parents have worries about vaccines. In the old days most parents simply followed their doctor’s advice and automatically got their children vaccinated. But today, virtually every parent has heard that there may be some side effects and problems with vaccines, and parents are asking questions. The problem is, no one is giving complete answers. Or rather, they are giving one-sided answers. Either your doctor is telling you that all vaccines are perfectly safe and you have nothing to worry about, or your neighbor is telling you all vaccines are evil and deadly and you are crazy to vaccinate. So you find yourself with many unanswered, or inadequately answered, questions. You don’t want your child to catch any serious illnesses, so you want to vaccinate. But you want to know what the potential risks and side effects are. You want to make an educated decision. That’s what this book is all about. It is my goal to give you a balanced look at the pros and cons of vaccination.

Notice how Dr. Bob places himself between what he incorrectly represents as “two extremes.” He’s not like those dogmatic antivaccinationists at all! Oh, no! He’s not like that crazy neighbor telling you that all vaccines are “evil and deadly.” But neither is he like that apparently dogmatic pediatrician who refuses to recognize any risks whatsoever from vaccines. Oh no! He’s far more reasonable. His is a “middle way,” threading the needle between loony antivaccinationism and rigid, authoritarian medicine touting “one size fits all” solutions for your–yes, your!–children and refusing to recognize that your child is a special little flower that requires “individualized” vaccination.

The problem, of course, is that pediatricians such as what he describes exist primarily in the fevered paranoid imaginings of the antivaccine movement. Worse, Dr. Bob uses the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad temperantiam, also known as middle ground, false compromise, gray fallacy and the golden mean fallacy. This fallacy implies that the positions being represented are extremes of a continuum of options, that such extremes are wrong, and that the “middle ground” must be correct. It’s a very seductive fallacy, because whenever people see arguments in which two seemingly extreme positions are presented, their first tendency is to look for compromise by “splitting the difference” and assuming that the correct answer is somewhere in the middle. Yet such is not always the case, particularly in matters of science. For instance, the correct scientific position is not somewhere between that of anthropogenic global warming denialists and everyone else or somewhere between what creationists claim and what evolutionists know from science. Likewise, the correct answer regarding vaccination is not somewhere in the middle, between the claims of antivaccinationists and what real scientists say about vaccination. Yet, that’s the game Dr. Bob plays, giving credence to discredited claims about vaccines promoted by the antivaccine movement. It’s not for nothing that Dr. Paul Offit and others consider Dr. Bob to be, if not antivaccine, at least flirting with the antivaccine movement.

All of this is why what Seth Mnookin writes about Dr. Bob is quite telling when he asks the question about Sears, Bob Sears: Bald-faced liar, devious dissembler, or both? In it, Mnookin reveals Dr. Bob’s version of the truth to be rather fluid regarding his involvement with “patient zero” for the measles outbreak that occurred in San Diego in 2008. The reason this came up is after Dr. Bob’s attack on AB 2109 because a commenter, in order to illustrate the consequences of not vaccinating and argue that Dr. Sears, either wittingly or unwittingly, promotes beliefs that have negative health consequences asked asking Dr. Bob about the patient believed to be responsible for the San Diego outbreak, using Seth Mnookin’s account in his book The Panic Virus as his source. This led Dr. Bob to respond:

I will set the record straight. I was NOT the pediatrician who saw the measles patient and let him sit in my office. As far as I know, that occured in a San Diego pediatrician’s office. I don’t know whose. I was not involved in that at all. I haven’t read Seth Minooken’s book, NOR have I ever even spoken with Seth. So I’ve no idea what he’s said about me in his book. I actually had no idea that any of you were even wondering about this. No one’s brought it to my attention before this. I heard something about some journalist writing a book about vaccines, but hadn’t bothered to read it.

In response, frequent commenter here lilady challenged him:

Really, Dr. Sears?

Is this the same Dr. Bob Sears who appeared on the Dr. Oz Show? How about commenting on this video (at 1:00 minutes into the Part 4 “What Causes Autism” Show), Dr. Sears. Dr. Ari Brown stated succinctly to you that she believed the young patients infected by measles were your patients.

http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/what-causes-autism-pt-4

You never “corrected” Dr. Brown and you quickly changed the subject. Why did you not deny that your patients were involved in the outbreak and…why did you change the topic, Dr. Sears?

We all await your explanation.

That explanation was:

Of course I remember the show, and her comment. BUT, she wasn’t accusing me of being the pediatrician that the measles patient went to see when he had measles and sat in his waiting room. She simply stated that that child was my patient (which is correct, but they didn’t come to see me during the measles illness). She was baiting me, and suggesting that the fact that that family had decided against the MMR vaccine long before they ever became my patients was MY fault. I wasn’t about to give her the satisfaction of acknowleding her comment.

What I was referring to by the statement “I had no idea” was that I never knew anyone, much less a supposedly respected reporter, was spreading the FALSE rumors that I was the pediatrician involved in the outbreak. I have simply been the family’s pediatrican over the years, but I practice far away from them, so they went to a local ped for THIS problem. Anyone who has written or suggested otherwise printing false information.

Talk about not owning up to one’s actions! Dr. Bob “empowers” and supports antivaccine parents in their decision not to vaccinated, and then he whines when it is pointed out that one of his unvaccinated patients was the nidus for a major measles outbreak.

All of this brings us to Seth Mnookin’s post from yesterday. Mnookin pointed out that Dr. Bob’s pandering to the antivaccine movement went so far as to advise “hiding in the herd” (i.e., taking advantage of herd immunity for measles) and, even worse, to say to parents hiding in the herd, “I also warn them not to share their fears with their neighbors, because if too many people avoid the MMR, we’ll likely see the diseases increase significantly.” In other words, Sears on the one hand excuses parents who do not vaccinated and on the other hand advises them to be parasites taking advantage of herd immunity provided by parents who were willing to take on the responsibility and risks of vaccination to protect their children at zero risk to their children and telling them not to encourage others to do the same because it would degrade herd immunity and eliminate the advantage of being a parasite!

In light of Dr. Bob’s advice, pointing out that Dr. Bob’s patient was probably the vector responsible for starting a measles outbreak in San Diego was a legitimate point. It serves to emphasize that Dr. Bob’s arguments have consequences. That’s why it’s a joy to see Mnookin take Dr. Sears down a peg or two by pointing out that Dr. Bob is either dissembling or lying:

Sears’s involvement with patient zero was not some sort of secret: It was also reported in a December 19, 2008 episode of This American Life, in the middle of an interview with Sears himself. (You can hear that part of the broadcast–“That’s Dr. Bob Sears. … Dr. Bob, as people call him, is also the doctor for the non-vaccinating family that went to Switzerland”–here. For people interested in the whole show, Sears comes in just before the the 34-minute mark.) It was also reported in Sears’s hometown newspaper, The Orange County Register. I wasn’t the first person to write about it, and I wasn’t the last-but for some reason, Sears has decided now is the time to speak out about this-and he’s doing so in the comments of his latest Huffington Post vaccine scare-mongering lunacy.

Mnookin also points out that Sears is attacking a straw man by railing against him for having allegedly allowed the child with measles to sit in his waiting room with other children. Neither Mnookin, any of the commenters in HuffPo, nor anyone else accused Dr. Sears of that. They merely pointed out that it’s been widely reported, and apparently acknowledged by Dr. Sears himself, that patient zero for the San Diego measles outbreak was a non-vaccinating patient of Dr. Sears. That’s it. It was Dr. Bob who either jumped to the conclusion or disingenuously attacked a straw man that he was being accused of having let a child with measles spread the disease to his other patients. He wasn’t.

One wonders if Dr. Bob has a bit of a guilty conscience. In fact, the final bit of his most recent comment sure does sound that way. One of Dr. Bob’s arguments agains AB 2109 was that doctors would refuse to sign the form. He uses the mention of his non-vaccinating patient who sparked a measles outbreak as a cue to rant (and I do mean rant):

PLUS, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU, AND SOME OF THE OTHER NEGATIVE COMMENTORS TO MY BLOG, FOR HELPING TO PROVE MY POINT. It seems that when a doctor’s patient chooses not to vaccinate, then catches one of the diseases, IT BECOMES THE DOCTOR’S FAULT? SO, WHY WOULD DOCTORS TAKE FURTHER RESPONSIBILITY AND LIABILITY FOR THEIR PATIENTS’ DECISION AND SIGN THEIR NAME TO THE EXEMPTION FORM? That’s my point; I appreciate you furthering my cause against AB2109.

It’s rather amusing how, when challenged, Dr. Sears reverts to writing like one of my more wingnutty commenters, complete with lots of ALL CAPS. Here’s a hint to Dr. Sears: Although the (very) occasional word or phrase in ALL CAPS can be used effectively to add emphasis, it’s a tool that needs to be used very sparingly. To do otherwise is to look like a ranting loon, which is what Dr. Bob looks like above. There’s a reason why one of the Flame Warriors is referred to as ALL CAPS and it is pointed out that ALL CAPS is the Internet equivalent of shouting, in which “from a tactical point of view, too much shouting alerts other Warriors to the opponent’s verbal WEAKNESS and emotional EXCITABILITY.”

Be that as it may, it would appear that Dr. Sears is a coward as well in that he doesn’t have the strength of his own convictions. Think about it. He advises parents who refuse the MMR not to tell others about it so as not to degrade herd immunity. If he really believed that the MMR is not safe enough, then why on earth would he not trumpet it to the world and advise the parents of his patients to do the same? He “supports” parents who don’t vaccinate; yet he says he won’t sign simple forms for them confirming that he has counseled them about the risks and benefits of vaccines. That’s all that AB 2109 asks him to do; yet he blames fear of liability for his decision. I have one question: Has any physician in this country ever been successfully sued for malpractice after one of his patient suffered from a vaccine-preventable disease on the basis that he supported the decision of the parents not to vaccinate or advised them not to? I’m certainly not aware of one. Truly, it bears repeating: Dr. Sears doesn’t have the strength of his convictions.

Unfortunately, Dr. Bob joins the list of pediatricians who have found fame, validation, and a bit of lucre pandering to the antivaccine movement. Like many of them, he does not see himself as being antivaccine, and maybe he isn’t, at least not the way luminaries of the antivaccine movement such as Barbara Loe Fisher, J.B. Handley, Sallie Bernard, Andrew Wakefield, and the like are antivaccine. He does, however, give credence to their views and, by using false balance to present fears about vaccines based on pseudoscience, making him very much a part of the problem.

Comments

  1. #1 Composer99
    March 28, 2012

    IMO Th1Th2 needs her own thread where she can be dumped and post to her heart’s content without gumming up other threads with outright crankery.

    That way she can’t say she’s been repressed or banned, while we all get a break from her ceaseless nonsense.

  2. #2 Orac
    March 28, 2012

    An excellent idea. I might just consider it. 🙂

  3. #3 Bronze Dog
    March 28, 2012

    Definitely a good idea, Composer99. People who want to poke the troll for their amusement can do so without disrupting other conversations, too. It gets my vote.

  4. #4 Candy
    March 28, 2012

    Giving Thingy her own thread sounds like an excellent idea to me as well. I used to find her sort of amusing – I still occasionally get a chuckle when I think of toddlers dutifully staying on the sidewalk and not getting off in all that nasty grass and dirt. Then I grew bored with her, and generally just scrolled by any comment she made. But just lately, when I’ve caught a few of her comments, she seems to be decompensating. It’s unsettling and not in a good, intellectually stimulating way . . .

  5. #5 Kelly M Bray
    March 28, 2012

    Get rid of thingy. It distracts from the conversation and simply cusses out people who disagree.

  6. #6 MikeMa
    March 28, 2012

    I no longer read thing’s rants and insults either. She/It really doesn’t serve any post or thread-related purpose at all.

  7. #7 Stu
    March 28, 2012

    As an added bonus, restricting loons to their own thread saves time pointing out their contradictions on other threads. There’s a certain climate-denial thread elsewhere on this site that has followed the same protocol.

  8. #8 JGC
    March 28, 2012

    Can we arrange somehow to bundle Sid’s posts with Th1Th2’s if you create the new thread? By stating explicitly “not vaccinating places no one at risk” he’s made it clear he doesn’t bring anything more to the table than does thingy.

  9. #9 Science Mom
    March 28, 2012

    My vote for an “abyss of ignominy” thread devoted to Thingdong-type trolls is cast as well. Perfect for Robin Hood, Smarter than you and the stoner dude too.

    Oh please, please, please?

  10. #10 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    Ego.Ego.Ego. There’s always a place for everyone.

    Let’s stay on the topic, shall we?

  11. #11 squirrelelite
    March 28, 2012

    Yes, Th1Th2, and your place is to play on the floor in the living room with the other toddlers while the adults sit at the table and have a intelligent discussion with each other.

    Of course, you can go outside and play on the nice clean sanitary concrete sidewalk if you prefer.

  12. #12 Sid Offit
    March 28, 2012

    @JGC

    Second, why in the first place are you presuming that one has no responsibility for harm done to others as the result of inaction, but only as the result of action? If I run you down in that actual car am I off the hook if I explain it wasn’t an act of running you down but rather inaction re: hitting the brakes?

    Stupid. Part of operating [acting] a car involves using the brakes. If you are a railroad switchman, the action is working as a switchman which obligates you to turn the switches on and off. Existing creates no obligation to act/vaccinate.

    ——————————-

    “Not vaccinating puts no one at risk since the the bugs are out there already – if they weren’t you could not catch anything.”

    False statement again: not vaccinating places others at risk–those who for other reasons including age, immunodeficiency, allergies to components in the vaccine, etc.–by compromising herd immunity and by the act of choosing to remain a potential vector for transmission of those “bugs that are out there already”.

    The groups you describe are already at risk. You admit it by saying I choose to REMAIN a potential vector (funny how your side sees people as objects such as vectors)

    Herd immunity is a product of government force and as such is something that carries no moral weight. Besides, I’m not compromising it. I’m just not supporting it. There is no obligation for me to support it.

    This definition of herd immunity explains it provides protection:

    Herd immunity (or community immunity) describes a form of immunity that occurs when the vaccination of a significant portion of a population (or herd) provides a measure of protection for individuals who have not developed immunity

    Failing to protect is not placing at risk. Protection implies there is already something for which others need protection. Putting at risk means creating a risk that did not otherwise exist.

  13. #13 Sid Offit
    March 28, 2012

    JGC Part II

    “The only time you have a responsibility is when you know you have an illness.”

    So if I owned and operated a hotel I’d have no responsibility to install fire alarms, overhead sprinklers, emergency lighting, fire doors, extinguishers,etc. or to inspect them regularly to ensure they were working properly, except when the building was actually on fire? (This is your field, i believe–is that what you were taught?)

    Where do you get these absurd analogies? No, morally, if you own a hotel you do not have to jump through these hoops. Perhaps if you had sprinklers (the owners choice), you’d be implying to your guests they worked and may then have an obligation to ensure they did.

    —————-
    “YES, that’s REALLY my position. Actions are circumscribed when they violate the rights of others, not solely because they might put someone at risk.”

    What right, exactly, would I violate by driving the wrong way at night with no headlights or running lights on, at 90 mph on a major interstate? I mean, since it has nothing at all to do with the fact that that I’m placing others at risk of injury or death as a consequence…right?

    Do you understand what the word “solely” means?
    ———————–

    “After all, even safe driving puts others at some degree of risk.”

    But not driving safely doesn’t violate their rights–agreed?

    Where did I say this. You are utterly confused.
    ———————

    Therefore I have no responsibility to drive safely, even if I have an ‘actual car’–agreed? And since it doesn’t violate their rights, only places them at risk, your initial distinction between actions and inactions is meaningless–agreed?

    Placing one at risk, can, but does not necessarily violate one’s rights.

  14. #14 Stu
    March 28, 2012

    Herd immunity is a product of government force and as such is something that carries no moral weight. Besides, I’m not compromising it. I’m just not supporting it. There is no obligation for me to support it.

    By not supporting it you ARE compromising it. A drunk manatee can understand this. The only thing that remains to be determined whether you are just monumentally stupid, too idealogically blinkered to understand Kindergarten math, or both.

  15. #15 Todd W.
    March 28, 2012

    @Sid

    Herd immunity is a product of government force and as such is something that carries no moral weight.

    Technically speaking, herd immunity is not solely achieved by immunization. It also encompasses those individuals who are immune because they had and lived through an infection, and subsequently gained immunity from future infections. Unless you’re going to accuse wild type bacteria and viruses of being in cahoots with government, you’re wrong. Now, the down side to relying solely on trying to achieve herd immunity through natural infection is that you never get there, since you need to be infected in order to increase the immune portion of the community.

    But, go on. Continue displaying how you care absolutely nothing for any human being other than yourself. You do quite a good job of it.

  16. #16 Chris
    March 28, 2012

    You have just got to love libertarian logic. The convolutions of thought that go into its depths of illogical connections is fascinating. This is a guy who does not understand why taking an unvaccinated child to a place where measles is endemic is idiotic.

  17. #17 Todd W.
    March 28, 2012

    @Stu

    I’m convinced that if the government forbade Mr. Schechter from vaccinating himself and his family, he would be first in line to get their shots.

  18. #18 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    Technically speaking, herd immunity is not solely achieved by immunization.

    Did you tell that to the cancer surgeon who do not treat children?

  19. #19 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    cancer surgeons who do not….

  20. #20 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    . Now, the down side to relying solely on trying to achieve herd immunity through natural infection is that you never get there, since you need to be infected in order to increase the immune portion of the community

    Two words. Live vaccines. They MUST infect.

  21. #21 Jay Chaplin
    March 28, 2012

    I do love how trolls fail to read what they cite. The paper Thingy refers to @199 shows that measles does not induce IgE even at the transcript level, that is done by the Rubella component only. It also shows that the IgE transcript is germline, in other words not specific for anything and functionless. It also shows that the IL-4 only control, which is a VERY weak inducer of IgE by itself, totally smokes the high dose rubella infection as an inducer of IgE. Further, they show no evidence that the IgE transcripts are ever expressed into protein and mention specifically and reference that many are not. Finally, if you bother to do the math, they use 200 to 4000 TCID50 units of virus per ml in culture with purified cells – if you compare this to what is used in the MMR and the fluid volume of a one year old you will find that they overexposed the cells in culture by a factor of 450 fold.

    I know it is hard for Thingy, and most anti-science types to distinguish between “what we can unreasonably force to happen in a petri dish” vs. “what actually happens in a person”, but here’s the issue… If the MMR, or any other vaccine, produced a significant amount of IgE there would be escalating allergic reactions with every vaccination, the second DTaP would be bad, the third would be much worse, the fourth should be fatal, etc. however we see the opposite, in general the reactions get smaller rather than larger. You can also see this from the timing, Thingy loves her measles rash when it comes on 5-7 days after infection but IgE reactions occur within 5 to 30 minutes after exposure.

    Or, put a final way since Thingy repeatedly claimed to be a RN in a past life, what is the treatment for anaphylaxis? Antihistamines and epinephrine. What is the treatment for measles rash? Rest and oatmeal baths. Why are the treatments not the same? Because the causes are not the same.

    JGC was correct, however I’m sure that Thingy won’t “STFU and learn. Please don’t be so stupid.”

  22. #22 Sid Offit
    March 28, 2012

    It saddens me to hear talk of banning users. The beauty of this blog is it’s tolerance for differing views and for allowing users to interact with one another in a rough-and- tumble manner. Unless a user is way out of line in regards to language or behavior, I’d like to see their participation protected. But, hey that’s just my opinion. The blog owner must ultimately decide.

  23. #23 Sid Offit
    March 28, 2012

    See, we’re now able to enjoy an interesting discussion of the immune system thanks to Th1Th2’s participation.

  24. #24 Lawrence
    March 28, 2012

    @Robert – you, at least, are somewhat rational – wrong-headed, in my opinion, but you can carry on a conversation that is somewhat related to the topic at hand. Your presence does generate lively debate, which is good.

    Insane troll, on the other hand, is nothing more than a chaotic mess, bringing nothing to the discussion, other than to justify its own existence. There is a huge difference between you – and I would take that as a compliment.

  25. #25 Beamup
    March 28, 2012

    The Thing doesn’t participate. It spams meaningless drivel.

  26. #26 Zach Miller
    March 28, 2012

    With the anti-science/rationality/education crap that’s been gaining ground in our country over the last few decades, I am fully in favor of selective censorship. Who decides? At higher levels, that needs to be worked out. At lower, blog-level decisions? The blog owner. Thingy is an incredibly good example of why I favor this. NOTHING is gained from Thingy’s participation in this blog. There is no benefit–Thing’s presence actively hurts and derails valid discussion.

  27. #27 JGC
    March 28, 2012

    “Part of operating [acting] a car involves using the brakes.”
    Which would be an action, but according to your own argument not using the brakes would represent an inaction (just like not getting vaccinated) so I’d have no responsibility for failing to act by applying them.

    If you believe this example fails it’s because your argument is invalid, not because there’s something ‘magically’ different about not getting vaccinated versus not doing anything else.

    “If you are a railroad switchman, the action is working as a switchman which obligates you to turn the switches on and off. Existing creates no obligation to act/vaccinate.”
    Being an adult member of any human society obligates you to take steps to ensure you do not place other members at risk unnecessarily; being a parent obligates you to take reasonable steps to ensure your children do not place others at risk unnecessarily. (You’re really too clueless to grasp this fundamental concept?)

    “The groups you describe are already at risk. You admit it by saying I choose to REMAIN a potential vector (funny how your side sees people as objects such as vectors)”
    Yes, we’ll all already at risk—did you have a point? It’s not las if only the two conditions of ‘at risk’ and ‘completely risk free’ exist. There is instead a continuum of degrees of risk, and your failure to immunize places others at significantly greater risk of injury from infectious disease.

    “Herd immunity is a product of government force and as such is something that carries no moral weight.”
    No, it isn’t. It’s the product of sufficiently large percentages of a population possessing resistance to infectious disease, and it’s the fact taht you are placing the health and safety of other individuals at risk by compromising herd immunity that carries moral weight in this instance.

    “Besides, I’m not compromising it. I’m just not supporting it. There is no obligation for me to support it.”
    You’re doing more than failing to support it: by electing not to comply with recommended immuniation you’re reducing the percentage of the population resistant to disease and are in fact compromising herd immunity.

    “Failing to protect is not placing at risk.”
    Electing to remain a potential reservoir/vector for infectious disease is to place others at risk. We see the results, in the increased numbers of infections, epidemic clusters and deaths due to preventable diseases such as pertussis which occur when herd immunity falls.

    “Protection implies there is already something for which others need protection. Putting at risk means creating a risk that did not otherwise exist.”
    >>More meaningless semantics. Putting others at risk does not only occur when creating a risk that did not previously exist: it also occurs whenever your actions increases the degree of extant risk.

    Consider driving. Every time anyone travels by automobile they’re at risk of accident and injury. If you drink and drive, despite the fact that they’re already at risk of having an accident you are placing them at risk—you’re increasing the likelihood a collusion will occur.
    parties at risk.

    But I’m sure you feel it’s unreasonable, perhaps representative of government force, that others would expect you to refrain from driving when intoxicated.

  28. #28 Jay Chaplin
    March 28, 2012

    Well, Thingy does make everyone else look good, sane, well-researched and rationalized by comparison. Heck, even makes Wakefield look good.

  29. #29 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    The paper Thingy refers to @199 shows that measles does not induce IgE even at the transcript level, that is done by the Rubella component only.

    Show me it was the Rubella.

    It also shows that the IgE transcript is germline, in other words not specific for anything and functionless.

    Well, duh. Primary immune response as always will produce germline antibodies. Please do mind your place.

    It also shows that the IL-4 only control, which is a VERY weak inducer of IgE by itself, totally smokes the high dose rubella infection as an inducer of IgE.

    Do you deny that measles virus infection can synergize with IL-4 to promote IgE-class switching?

    If the MMR, or any other vaccine, produced a significant amount of IgE there would be escalating allergic reactions with every vaccination, the second DTaP would be bad, the third would be much worse, the fourth should be fatal, etc. however we see the opposite, in general the reactions get smaller rather than larger.

    Unfortunately, you are barking up the wrong tree. Although most vaccines are Th2-promoting they are not IgE-specific. Well, duh. Try helminth vaccines!

    You can also see this from the timing, Thingy loves her measles rash when it comes on 5-7 days after infection but IgE reactions occur within 5 to 30 minutes after exposure.

    Well another duh. You don’t work where I work so STHU. A typical measles rash is NOT an acute hypersensitivity reaction; it is the result of delayed-type hypersensitivity.

    Or, put a final way since Thingy repeatedly claimed to be a RN in a past life, what is the treatment for anaphylaxis? Antihistamines and epinephrine. What is the treatment for measles rash? Rest and oatmeal baths. Why are the treatments not the same? Because the causes are not the same.

    When did I say I was an RN? Why are the treatments not the same? Because you are clueless to differentiate a typical measles rash from an acute anaphylactic reaction.

  30. #30 Science Mom
    March 28, 2012

    It saddens me to hear talk of banning users.

    @ Bob, no one is asking for the ban hammer, just a pit to deposit the brain droppings of a disruptive asshole. As long as you don’t come on here to make fun of people’s names in the infantile manner that you occasionally do with no provocation, I also don’t agree with the suggestion that you are relegated to a special place in blog comment hell.

  31. #31 herr doktor bimler
    March 28, 2012

    Can we arrange somehow to bundle Sid’s posts with Th1Th2’s if you create the new thread?

    Sid can be wrong but he is not engaged in an outright Denial-of-Service attack or gloating about making threads unreadable.

  32. #32 Stu
    March 28, 2012

    You don’t work where I work so STHU.

    Thingy, please stop lying. You’re clinically unhinged. You are not working right now. No way in hell.

    But that is now. You have said you used to work in a hospital. If not as an RN, what did you do there? And what hospital was it?

  33. #33 Narad
    March 28, 2012

    Herd immunity is a product of government force and as such is something that carries no moral weight.

    Ignoring the fact, already pointed out above, that the first half of this statement is actually false but granting it arguendo, what is this supposed to mean, anyway? Are you alleging that your subsophomoric libertarianism somehow perfectly aligns with morality as well, or is it just an irrelevancy? The property rights that you moon and slaver over are also a product of “government force.” Do they have no “moral weight,” thus making it perfectly fine to take whatever I can get away with?

  34. #34 Jay Chaplin
    March 28, 2012

    Dear Thingy, please read the paper you cited. The answer to your first demand “Show me it was the Rubella” is Figure 2B from the paper you cited, top right corner of page 358. Fail.

    Second, primary immune responses never produce germline antibodies. Nope. Only unselected B cells from a polyclonal response do that. We fail undergraduates that can’t grasp this concept by week four of the into to immunology class.

    Third, “Do you deny that measles virus infection can synergize with IL-4 to promote IgE-class switching?” Yes. I deny that. If the B cell was specific for a measles antigen and was co-cultured with IL-4 in the total absence of any other cytokines then it COULD happen. However, these are not measles specific B cells – as shown by the fact that they are producing germline transcripts and the fact that the IgE transcript was produced from the Ramos cell line which is NOT specific for measles. Further, the authors never tested antigen or infection plus IL-4, they only tested IL-4 alone so you have no data.

    By definition Th2 cytokines induce class switch to IgG4 and IgE antibody isotypes. So your comment “Although most vaccines are Th2-promoting they are not IgE-specific” is equivalent to saying that “A does not equal A”. Sorry, logic fail, you have violated the definition of part of your pseudonym and said that a tautology is incorrect. You may as well claim that just because someone has no pulse, is not breathing, and was buried in a coffin three weeks ago doesn’t mean they are dead.

    Hey, Thingy, you were the one that connected measles rash to IgE following my comment of “vaccines don’t induce any IgE production” with “Oh really? Two words. Measles rash.” Now you acknowledge that measles rash is not an acute hypersensitivity reaction, but it was your mistake to associate measles rash and IgE mediated anaphlyaxis in the first place. And, no, measles rash is not a delayed type hypersensitivity reaction anymore than it is an acute hypersenstivity reaction. Time frame and symptoms are still wrong, DTH reactions come on in 2 days and can be treated with corticosteroids, if you give those to someone with a measles infection you’ll kill them. Fail.

    You ask “When did I say I was an RN?” About twenty different posts over on Mothering before you got banned from there. (Thanks for the link lilady). And again, you were the one that linked the measles rash to IgE anaphylaxis. I don’t expect you to be consistent with anything known to be true but could you please manage to be consistent with yourself? Internal consistency is a great way to reduce the dose of meds your psych nurses need to give you.

  35. #35 lilady
    March 28, 2012

    I made a suggestion several days ago about Thingy. It derives its *jollies* by disrupting the thread and by feeding of Its immense need to have attention.

    Could the Troll’s comments be put in moderation purdah for a few days? When Troll’s comments are released after a day or two…or three or four…we probably would be all commenting on another topic. It might not stop the Troll, but it sure would piss-off Troll and prevent It from getting its *jollies* and deriving pleasure from Its disruptive activities.

    @ Jay Chaplin: I don’t recall a claim of being a R.N…but rather vague references i.e. “when I worked in the hospital” and “in the hospital where I work”, blah..blah..blah..

    It is not qualified to work in any capacity in the health care field…and not qualified to work as clerical worker or in a housekeeping department of a health care facility. It does not work in a laboratory, in any capacity, no less as a trained lab tech. It is unemployable and on the dole, cycling in and out of custodial care…either in a psychiatric hospital or in a substance abuse re-hab facility.

  36. #36 Jay Chaplin
    March 28, 2012

    On 2/17/09, for instance, Th1Th2 wrote “I am an RN but I quit for the reason that I don’t want to be associated with the putative practices of Modern Medicine” over on the “I’m not vaccinating” thread at sMothering. You know, impersonating a medical professional can get you locked up – again.

  37. #37 Composer99
    March 28, 2012

    lilady,

    A few advantages of a dedicated ‘troll thread’ for Th1Th2, as compared to, say, automatically shunting comments into moderation, is less work for Orac over the long haul after an initial bit of work setting up the thread (at least, that would be my hope):

    – Th1Th2 can post as often as she likes on any topic of her choosing, and anyone else can respond/engage as desired, without dragging other threads off-topic, derailing them with her incoherent rants, and so on. She can even link to new vaccine-related posts as she likes to stay current.
    – Th1Th2 is stil freely posting on Respectful Insolence, so contra Schechter’s (once again) dishonest characterization of the proposal, she has not been banned, nor could she make any claims to being censored (although “not allowed to comment on Respectful Insolence” and “freedom of speech rights abridged” are rather separate things). I think the free-wheeling nature of RI comments are one of the reasons the blog is so popular so keeping that structure intact is valuable even if the most pernicious troll is kept a little bit outside the main posting action.
    – As far as I know (e.g. from my own blog, if I am correct in extrapolating it to the system used for ScienceBlogs) moderated comments have to be vetted manually by the blogger, which means every day Orac would have to spend time – better spent blogging, reading, or engaging in other, doubtless better activities – going through moderated Th1Th2 comments. By contrast, an auto-dump to a troll thread (if this is possible) would mean no additional workload after the initial setup.
    – We can go engage with Th1Th2 whenever we feel like it, or not, without regular comment threads on vaccine-related posts constantly devolving into a mess of her incoherent posts and our attempts to pin her gelatinous arguments down to something coherent.

  38. #38 Beamup
    March 28, 2012

    To be fair, at various times various folks HAVE called for the Thing to be banned. Mark M did so upthread, for example.

  39. #39 Narad
    March 28, 2012

    Let’s stay on the topic, shall we?

    You have not made a single remark that is on the topic, which is Bob Sears’s HuffPo performance. Thus, one is left to ask whether there is a distinct subtopic that has crept in, and indeed there is: whether to sandbox you. Couching in terms of “topicality” a nervous suggestion that this should not be spoken of doesn’t work.

    In view of the worsening petulance of your single-minded, narcissistic antics, it strikes me as a perfectly sound idea.

  40. #40 Narad
    March 28, 2012

    On 2/17/09, for instance, Th1Th2 wrote “I am an RN but I quit for the reason that I don’t want to be associated with the putative practices of Modern Medicine” over on the “I’m not vaccinating” thread at sMothering.

    Nice catch. That’s going to leave a mark.

  41. #41 Reuben
    March 28, 2012

    Thing writes she’s an RN:
    h_ttp://www.mothering.com/community/t/1019774/non-vaxing-rn-mamas-and-others-need-some-support#post_13204015

    I am an RN but I quit for the reason that I don’t want to be associated with the putative practices of Modern Medicine particularly with vaccinations. As the saying goes, “Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself.” —especially on my own baby. I have also pondered that most patients in the hospital, if not all, are the ill-products of continuous bondage in the reins of pharmaceutical drugs and vaccines. Their sustainability is the lifeblood of the hospital and drug companies. And it’s not worthy for me to pursue this job anymore.

    I’m going to guess that she left the facility where she worked kicking and screaming, under the supervision of security, or by court order. Just a guess. She can clarify if she so chooses.

  42. #42 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    Dear Thingy, please read the paper you cited. The answer to your first demand “Show me it was the Rubella” is Figure 2B from the paper you cited, top right corner of page 358. Fail.

    I have to see that. Give me the link.

    Second, primary immune responses never produce germline antibodies. Nope. Only unselected B cells from a polyclonal response do that. We fail undergraduates that can’t grasp this concept by week four of the into to immunology class.

    So you’re an overt primary germ-line antibody denier then.

    However, these are not measles specific B cells – as shown by the fact that they are producing germline transcripts and the fact that the IgE transcript was produced from the Ramos cell line which is NOT specific for measles. Further, the authors never tested antigen or infection plus IL-4, they only tested IL-4 alone so you have no data.

    It’s not specific to measles. Is there a problem with that?

    By definition Th2 cytokines induce class switch to IgG4 and IgE antibody isotypes. So your comment “Although most vaccines are Th2-promoting they are not IgE-specific” is equivalent to saying that “A does not equal A”. Sorry, logic fail, you have violated the definition of part of your pseudonym and said that a tautology is incorrect. You may as well claim that just because someone has no pulse, is not breathing, and was buried in a coffin three weeks ago doesn’t mean they are dead.

    Before you parade your ignorance, which current vaccines in the market are IgE-specific?

    Hey, Thingy, you were the one that connected measles rash to IgE following my comment of “vaccines don’t induce any IgE production” with “Oh really? Two words. Measles rash.” Now you acknowledge that measles rash is not an acute hypersensitivity reaction, but it was your mistake to associate measles rash and IgE mediated anaphlyaxis in the first place.

    Fool. A typical measles rash is NOT an anaphylaxis reaction. It is IgG-mediated of delayed type but NOT an anaphylaxis. How many times do I have to tell you that?

    And, no, measles rash is not a delayed type hypersensitivity reaction anymore than it is an acute hypersenstivity reaction.

    That is your opinion. Go on.

    Time frame and symptoms are still wrong, DTH reactions come on in 2 days and can be treated with corticosteroids, if you give those to someone with a measles infection you’ll kill them. Fail.

    May be the reason corticosteroids are not used to treat a typical measles rash is because smart people don’t consider it as an anaphylactic reaction. Here’s your Fail grade.

  43. #43 lilady
    March 28, 2012

    Thanks to all the RI Regulars who located that particular post on mothering.com

    *SFB* Troll: I am a Registered Nurse and you are a full-of- shit pathological liar.

  44. #44 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    With regards to the RN or whatever that means:

    “Yesterday I was lying, today I’m telling the truth”

  45. #45 madder
    March 28, 2012

    I have often viewed thingy as someone’s particularly effective game, instead of anything resembling an honest representation of someone’s opinions and thought processes. Sometimes its output is interesting in a “what will it come up with next” kind of way, since it seems to view niceties such as internal consistency and honesty as fripperies for others to engage in, and lists of logical fallacies as instruction manuals. I mean, really: now it’s asking for the link to a paper it cited. The utter completeness of its failure to engage with reality is fascinating.

    But the end result remains– thingy’s screeds are orthogonal to reality, increasingly belligerent, and never conducive to fruitful discussion. And unlike most blogs, I enjoy the original posts and the comments here equally. Except for thingy’s.

    And yes, I will refer to thingy as “it,” because I want to believe that its output is simply a game. Sometimes I am not so sure. If the posts by Th1Th2 actually reflect a person earnestly trying to communicate and engage with the world, then I am sorry… but really, it is neither kind nor constructive to argue with the belligerent maniac.

    I’m just a mostly-lurker and infrequent commenter, but I strongly endorse the idea of a single dedicated thread into which all of Th1Th2’s posts are automatically diverted.

  46. #46 Reuben
    March 28, 2012

    In which the troll gives medical advice to someone about their flu-like illness:

    Having a flu is a sign that a person needs to take a break and to have a sufficient bed rest. Nothing more is necessary, not even drugs or a doctor’s visit. Good luck.

    I’d skip the doctor unless there are signs you need medical assistance to breathe, there is severe dehydration that you can’t fix or there are other warning signs that someone needs medical assistance immediately.

    I’d start giving everyone at least 2,000 IU of vitamin D, especially if you haven’t ever had a Vitamin D screen and don’t know if you are deficient or not. (I was screened and had severe deficiency. My husband, who is out in the sun ALL the time, was screened and was also deficient!) Vitamin D deficiency has been correlated to flu susceptibility and possibly severity.

    Source: h_ttp://www.mothering.com/community/t/1113060/flu-help-me-decide-if-we-need-to-go-to-the-doctor#post_14106856

    Jesus Christ, the thing is married?

  47. #47 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    Ruben do it properly please. Check your quotes.

  48. #48 Reuben
    March 28, 2012

    I’ve been over at “mothering”, reading the stupidity that Thing puts out as expert advice. There are some golden nuggets over there.

    For example, reasonable people would read the following and infer that, indeed, vaccines don’t cause the disease:

    The strength of this approach is that the vaccine cannot possibly cause even a mild form of the disease that it prevents and can be given to people with weakened immune systems.

    Ah, but not unhappily married Thinger. She thinks it reads this:

    Even inactivated virus can cause the disease. This is a good start for those who don’t believe that vaccines actually cause diseases

    “Cannot possibly cause even a mild form of the disease” = “Causes disease” in the world of the troll. And then, when someone points out to her that her proof contradicted what she wrote, she goes on to interpret what the person she was quoting probably really wanted to say. So she’s a mind reader on top of a failed RN.

    I mean, I’ve been reading her rants here and thought she was misguided. I read her rants over there as well and am convinced she’s one french fry short of a basket. If we could just guide all her comments to a special website, then charge people a dollar a pop to see that abomination, like a circus thing, we could donate all that cash to some worthwhile cause.

  49. #49 dt
    March 28, 2012

    That was “luminesce” who you quoted Reuben.
    The concept that thingy is sane enough to have gottten married was just one hypothesis too far.

  50. #50 dedicated lurker
    March 28, 2012

    Whatever you want to say about Sid, his posts pass the Turing test.

  51. #51 lurker
    March 28, 2012

    Developmental Disabilities Increasing in US- CDC stats

    http://www.cdc.gov/Features/dsDev_Disabilities/
    Over the last 12 years, the
    Prevalence of DDs has increased 17.1%—that’s about 1.8 million more children with DDs in 2006–2008 compared to a decade earlier;
    Prevalence of autism increased 289.5%;
    Prevalence of ADHD increased 33.0%; and,
    Prevalence of hearing loss decreased 30.9%.

  52. #52 Science Mom
    March 28, 2012

    Developmental Disabilities Increasing in US- CDC stats

    Grandma, could you at least spew something original? This wouldn’t have anything to do with changes in diagnostic criteria? Increased diagnoses either via better recognition or over-diagnosis? Should we also attribute a decrease in prevalence of hearing loss to “over vaccination with teh toxins”? It is consistent with your other prevarications after all.

  53. #53 lurker
    March 28, 2012

    Can you please stop harping on Dr. Sears measles cases 2008-there are other
    serious issues like why the increse above (no it’s not diagnosis.)

  54. #54 Jay Chaplin
    March 28, 2012

    “Dear Thingy, please read the paper you cited. The answer to your first demand “Show me it was the Rubella” is Figure 2B from the paper you cited, top right corner of page 358. Fail.”

    And then you write “I have to see that. Give me the link.”

    Ha! It was your own link! Ha, ha, ha! Give you back your own link. You really are special aren’t you?

  55. #55 lurker
    March 28, 2012

    The new term for the fanatics pushing the current schedule-Vaccinationists as in
    Creationists.

  56. #56 lilady
    March 28, 2012

    What happened in the mid-1990s to have caused the incidence of autism/autism spectrum disorders to increase so dramatically…hmmmm?

    http://www.theautismeducationsite.com/2010/06/11/history-of-autism-in-the-dsm-dsm-i-to-dsm-iv/

    We have already discussed the changing of diagnostic criteria in the DSM IV, here:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/08/gaps_in_a_doctors_reasoning_about_vaccines.php

    (See my posting at # 64)

    “P.S. I never responded to the clever poster a while back who drew the conclusion that the “expanded” diagnostic criteria for ASD has resulted in the curing of mental retardation…it gave me, the parent of a profoundly mentally retarded son with autistic-like behaviors, an immense chuckle…belated thanks.”

  57. #57 Lawrence
    March 28, 2012

    @lurker – you’re drive-by postings are becoming extremely boring, seriously. Like we haven’t been over and over this about a thousand times – the search box is your friend.

    Also, care to explain the 30% decrease in hearing loss? Could it be because of the lack of deafness-causing childhood diseases due to vaccinations?

  58. #58 Vicki
    March 28, 2012

    @Robert: Would you defend a hotel-owner’s right to ignore the state fire safety code on the grounds that there had never been a fatal fire in that particular hotel and there was no evidence that hotel guests were going to light candles or smoke in bed? Similarly, should shopping malls that have never had fatal fires be allowed to ignore the fire safety codes?

    If so, would your definition of fire safety at least require the posting of prominent notices “This hotel/store/building is not in compliance with $state fire safety regulations. Enter at your own risk”? Or should I be expected to track down every building owner and interview them about materials, the presence or absence of sprinkler systems and fire alarms, and whether the fire escape doors have been locked from the outside, before entering the building?

  59. #59 Science Mom
    March 28, 2012
    serious issues like why the increse above (no it's not diagnosis.)

    This is a thread about Dr. Sears so get over it. I’m sure it is rather uncomfortable for you to have the repercussions of the anti-vaccine “movement” discussed but too bad. So measles resurgence when nearly eradicated is not serious? Will it be serious enough for you when there are increases in the above due to congenital rubella syndrome? Measles encephalitis? Mumps deafness? Oh hey, let’s bring back Hib for ol’ times sake because there just haven’t been enough cases of gruesome Epiglottitis and meningitis in infants. Screw developing a better pertussis vaccine, whooping cough and related infant deaths aren’t serious right? Right?

  60. #60 Lawrence
    March 28, 2012

    @Vicki – in Robert’s world, it is easier to punish the guilty after the fact than to worry about enforcing any regulations to prevent things from happening in the first place….I call it the “why spend an ounce for prevention when we can spend a pound to cure….”

  61. #61 lurker
    March 28, 2012

    Re:Hearing loss-development of newer and more approriate antibiotics to treat ear
    infections common in childhood.

  62. #62 lurker
    March 28, 2012

    To whom it may concern-
    Like all your ridiculous answers to Th1Th2 show maturity, judgement, appropriate
    content, and are so so relevant. You all get off on them-it isn’t really mandatory to
    comment. I have to weed through them too! Grow up!

  63. #63 Chris
    March 28, 2012

    lurker, so the reduction of some of the major causes of deafness like Congenital Rubella Syndrome, mumps, measles and Hib had less effect than antibiotics?

    Prove it.

  64. #64 lurker
    March 28, 2012

    @Chris- Citations please

  65. #65 lilady
    March 28, 2012

    We are not discussing treating ear infections in an older child…but rather the testing of newborns and infants to identify hearing loss.

    http://report.nih.gov/NIHfactsheets/ViewFactSheet.aspx?csid=104

    There are many interventions, including cochlear implants, that can help these children to ameliorate/overcome hearing deficits.

    How about the many vaccine-preventable diseases which leave an infant or a young child with profound hearing loss?

    Might the availability of vaccines to prevent these diseases, have an effect on the number of children reported as having deafness?

    Lurker, we see what you did there…and we’re calling you out on it.

    You linked to an article about increased incidence of developmental disabilities. We provided you with information about the changing diagnostic criteria.

    Stop acting like the troll you are…by flitting away from the topic you brought up…to a new topic.

    What impact has the changing diagnostic criteria had on the incidence of autism spectrum disorder, lurker?

  66. #66 Chris
    March 28, 2012

    You need to cite your source, but here are some:

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2009 Mar;28(3):173-5.
    An office-based prospective study of deafness in mumps.

    Bull World Health Organ. 1999;77(1):3-14.
    Mumps and mumps vaccine: a global review

    Int J Pediatr Otorhinolaryngol. 1998 Jan;42(3):225-31.
    Aetiology of deafness among children at the Buguruni School for the Deaf in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. (“Among the children with acquired deafness, the cause was unknown in 77 (24.2%); meningitis in 76 (23.9%), ototoxicity in 66 (20.8%), mumps in 53 (16.7%) febrile convulsions in five (1.5%), otitis media in 28 (8.8%) and measles in 13 (4.1%)”)

    Auris Nasus Larynx. 1986;13 Suppl 1:S55-7.
    Deafness following mumps: the possible pathogenesis and incidence of deafness.

    Otolaryngol Clin North Am. 1978 Feb;11(1):63-9.
    Viral causes of sudden inner ear deafness.

    Ear Hear. 1987 Apr;8(2):74-7.
    Profound childhood deafness in Nigeria: a three year survey.

    Pediatr Infect Dis J. 1993 May;12(5):389-94.
    Outcomes of bacterial meningitis in children: a meta-analysis.

    N Z Med J. 1988 Nov 9;101(857):758-60.
    Bacterial meningitis in childhood: a 13 year review.

    J Infect. 1984 Jul;9(1):30-42.
    A review of Haemophilus influenzae infections in Cambridge 1975-1981

  67. #67 Denice Walter
    March 28, 2012

    @ lilady:

    And fasten your seatbeats- it’s about to happen again!

    According to Jon Brock ( Cracking the Enigma blog), changes in the DSM-5 will probably lead to lower numbers being diagnosed with ASDs, especially AS- based on preliminary studies @ Yale.

    Of course, AoA have been shrieking about this for months- shouldn’t they be happy, after all, now less people will have autism; perhaps they can take credit that their anti-vaxx haranguing has caused the decrease! Less vax = less ASDs. I wouldn’t be shocked in the least.

  68. #68 Michelle K.
    March 28, 2012

    Some clarity:

    “Michelle’s children weren’t injured -except for the one who has asthma which is on the
    increase in fully vaccinated children. I don’t think asthma is rising in unvaccinated
    children because all the stats show high vaccination compliance in the US.”

    THIS IS IMPORTANT:
    My son with asthma (now 2 years) developed symptoms at 5 weeks old – prior to ANY vaccinations (we delayed the newborn Hep B vaccine to his 2 month well child visit, aside from that he was vaccinated according to schedule).

    My daughter (now 5) who was on a delayed vaccine schedule suffered from two vax-preventable illnesses – rotavirus and chicken pox. Thankfully, the rotavirus, while VERY nasty for a week or so, ran its course without incident. She was a year old. She contracted chicken pox at age 2 after exposure to her grandmother who had shingles. She had a very light case of chicken pox – high fever and a handful of lesions. Because the case was light, I did get her vaccinated a few years later.

    She was not injured by either disease, but I think what really hit me is that VACCINE PREVENTABLE DISEASES STILL EXIST. I couldn’t rely on herd immunity to protect my kids until they were older. Rotavirus and chicken pox are generally mild; pertussis or measles, not so much. If your kid can catch chicken pox, they can catch pertussis.

    I live in a woo-pocket of non-vaccinating parents, so it’s not surprising that vaccine-preventable diseases are so common here.

    So I decided to take advice from the real experts – CDC, CHOP, my children’s pediatrician, all of whom whole-heartedly recommend vaccinating on schedule. Dr. Bob seems like a nice enough guy, but I was crazy to trust his advice over the advice of the experts.

  69. #69 Chris
    March 28, 2012

    Sorry, lilady, but my son’s specials education program was a direct offshoot of the deaf and hard of hearing program. When he started there a bit over twenty years ago the biggest special ed. program was deaf/hard of hearing with about 80 kids in a school with 300 kids (regular plus special ed.).

    My younger kids attended the regular ed. program there (it was only one school beyond their neighborhood school). When my youngest left fifteen years later the deaf/hard of hearing program was down to half a dozen students.

    So I needed to react to lurker pulling a grand pronouncement about antibiotics out of thin air. And that she insisted that I provide citations while she does not.

    I also found this paper (they are often old, since the vaccines started to be effective forty years ago): Factors Associated With Deafness in Young Children. Going over the disparate thoughts on what caused childhood deafness, they did a survey of parents of both deaf and hearing children. Some of the results:

    Etiological classification of deafness in 118 children showed the causes were maternal rubella in the first trimester, 28 percent; hereditary factors, 12.7 percent; blood incompatibility, 4.2 percent; childhood meningitis, 3.4 percent; maternal influenza in the first trimester, 2.5 percent; and maternal chickenpox or scarlatina in the first trimester and child trauma, 0.8 percent each. In this group approximately 39 percent had histories of frank abnormalities, but the cause of their deafness was unknown. The remaining 7.6 percent had essentially normal histories.

  70. #70 Chris
    March 28, 2012

    Michelle, my son had seizures due to dehydration from rotavirus and was taken to the hospital by ambulance.

  71. #71 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    My son with asthma (now 2 years) developed symptoms at 5 weeks old – prior to ANY vaccinations (we delayed the newborn Hep B vaccine to his 2 month well child visit, aside from that he was vaccinated according to schedule).

    So you’re saying your son was sick prior to any vaccination? I see.

    My daughter (now 5) who was on a delayed vaccine schedule suffered from two vax-preventable illnesses – rotavirus and chicken pox.

    Vaccines do not prevent primary infection.

    She had a very light case of chicken pox – high fever and a handful of lesions. Because the case was light, I did get her vaccinated a few years later.

    Why did you vaccinate your daughter who has previously had natural chicken pox? It doesn’t make any sense. Anyway, your child is welcome to join Shingles Club anytime.

    I couldn’t rely on herd immunity to protect my kids until they were older.

    Never rely on a myth.

  72. #72 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    Ha! It was your own link! Ha, ha, ha! Give you back your own link. You really are special aren’t you?

    I don’t have the special privilege to access the full article. Share.

  73. #73 Reuben
    March 28, 2012

    So you’re saying your son was sick prior to any vaccination? I see.

    Reading comprehension. There might be hope for you yet.

    Vaccines do not prevent primary infection

    Frack!

    Why did you vaccinate your daughter who has previously had natural chicken pox? It doesn’t make any sense. Anyway, your child is welcome to join Shingles Club anytime.

    She told you, “because the case was light”! Scratch what I wrote about reading comprehension.

    Never rely on a myth.

    Aaaaaaaaand that’s why we don’t rely on your “experience” as an RN or a human being.

    Also, STFU or STHU, whichever you’re using at the moment.

  74. #74 Liz Ditz
    March 28, 2012

    Source of “one in six children now have a developmental disability” (which I believe Dr. Bob has cited as more proof teh vaxinez is ebil):

    Boyle et al. (2011) Trends in the Prevalence of Developmental Disabilities in US Children, 1997–2008 Pediatrics. 2011 Jun;127(6):1034-42. Epub 2011 May 23. doi: 10.1542/peds.2010-2989)

    Participants and Methods:We used data on children aged 3 to 17 years from the 1997–2008 National Health Interview Surveys, which are ongoing nationally representative samples of US households. Parent-reported diagnoses of the following were included: attention deficit hyperactivity disorder; intellectual disability; cerebral palsy; autism; seizures; stuttering or stammering; moderate to profound hearing loss; blindness; learning disorders; and/or other developmental delays.

    I emphasized the “parent-reported” as the data aren’t validated by actual diagnostic or medical records. Clicking on my name gets you to the post where I discuss the issue.

  75. #75 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    Reading comprehension. There might be hope for you yet.

    It’s called connecting the dots. Read her story again.

    She told you, “because the case was light”! Scratch what I wrote about reading comprehension.

    If you’re going to ask the “experts”, they’ll gonna tell you otherwise.

  76. #76 Chris
    March 28, 2012

    The “one is six” also has a statistical basis. One standard deviation below the mean leaves about 16% on the lower part of the curve, which is around one in six.

  77. #77 Reuben
    March 28, 2012

    It’s called connecting the dots. Read her story again.

    Apparently, you didn’t. You still had to ask why she was vaccinating again.

    If you’re going to ask the “experts”, they’ll gonna tell you otherwise.

    What? That doesn’t even make sense. “They’ll gonna tell you”? They will gonna tell you?

    All I have to say to that is this.

  78. #78 Denice Walter
    March 28, 2012

    @ Chris:

    @ my # 145 above:
    thus my visions of statisticians cringing in unison.

  79. #79 Chris
    March 28, 2012

    I see, Denise. My comment serves as an explanation of your observation.

  80. #80 Stu
    March 28, 2012

    I don’t have the special privilege to access the full article.

    Then why did you link to it, grits-for-brains?

    Might I again urge you to visit a doctor to get your medications checked out.

    Might I also add that I am TRULY thankful you are not a nurse anymore (if you ever were).

  81. #81 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    Her son at 5 weeks old was sick prior to any vaccination. So what’s the connection of vaccination to her sick child? Duh.

    Re: Chicken pox.

    Evidence of immunity includes any of the following:

    1. Documentation of two doses of varicella vaccine
    2. Blood tests that show you are immune to varicella or laboratory confirmation of prior disease
    3. Born in the United States before 1980, excluding health-care workers, pregnant women, and immunocompromised persons. These individuals need to meet one of the other criteria for evidence of immunity.
    4. Receipt from a healthcare provider of a) a diagnosis of chickenpox or b) verification of a history of chickenpox
    5. Receipt from a healthcare provider of a) a diagnosis of herpes zoster (shingles) or b) verification of a history of herpes zoster (shingles).

    You do NOT need the chickenpox vaccine, if you meet any of the above criteria for evidence of immunity.

    h_ttp://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/varicella/vac-faqs-gen.htm

    As if the virus will leave the body after primary infection.

    Welcome to Shingles Club.

  82. #82 Narad
    March 28, 2012

    I don’t have the special privilege to access the full article $31.50 or a library card or know anyone with institutional access. Share Gimme.

    Ahh, that’s better.

  83. #83 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    Then why did you link to it, grits-for-brains?

    Check #199 and find out who I was replying to.

    But I am more interested in Jay’s claim “that Th2 cytokines would lead to the production of IgE – which vaccines do not.”

    Hence, the article.

  84. #84 Denice Walter
    March 28, 2012

    @ Chris:

    You know, I’ve thought about sharing my list of “statements that make the SB community cringe” but I’m afraid it might be mistaken for an AoA Greatest Hits Collection: I don’t want to be accused of plagiarism.

  85. #85 Stu
    March 28, 2012

    Her son at 5 weeks old was sick prior to any vaccination. So what’s the connection of vaccination to her sick child? Duh.

    None?

  86. #86 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    Use your imagination. You guys are good at it right?

  87. #87 Stu
    March 28, 2012

    Check #199 and find out who I was replying to.

    Are you saying you didn’t quote an article you don’t have full access to? Did I miss something?

  88. #88 Th1Th2
    March 28, 2012

    Are you saying you didn’t quote an article you don’t have full access to? Did I miss something?

    What’s going on with these English-speaking people?

    JGC asked:

    Which is caused by measles. Are you really unable tell distinguish between measles and measles vaccines? Oh, wait…the inability to distinguish between immunization and infection has been a hallmark of your posts all along.

    Then let’s find the hallmark, shall we?

    Infection of human B lymphocytes with MMR vaccine…

    Is that English or what?

  89. #89 Stu
    March 28, 2012

    Use your imagination. You guys are good at it right?

    Yes, we are very good at that. We imagine you huddled over a PC in a very unfortunate relative’s basement, scoffing at your prescribed lithium, depakote, thorazine and other evil medications, spittle flying as you vow revenge upon the evil medical establishment that ran you out of town for questioning their methods.

    Of course, I could be wrong. It could be a spare bedroom.

  90. #90 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    @ Denice Walter: Yes, I’ve been watching the discussions at AoA, about the changeover to DSM V criteria for autism. It’s downright hilarious…and pathetic.

    Few, if any of the articles at that rag, ever advocate for real causes. They espouse a libertarian agenda regarding “health freedom”, not realizing that many libertarians like Offal do not want to pay for anyone to have ongoing services past the age of 21. Hell, Offal does not want to pay school taxes…no less special classes and therapies for disabled children, including those on “the spectrum”.

    When all their *interventions* fail to *cure* their children, what will their options be? Funding for school programs and ancillary services funded by school taxes, comes to a dead stop, when their kids “age out” at age 21. Programs after that (day habilitation, day treatment, vocational training) are funded by Medicaid and there are long waiting lists for entry into those programs.

    What will happen to these kids who need ongoing care, past the time, when parents can no longer care for them at home? Do the parents who devote their time to anti-vax activities and who emotionally and financially support their *heroes*, such as Wakefield and other quacks, think that group homes providing appropriate care are *just waiting* for their kids?

    An older generation advocated to have children with disabilities provided with a free publicly-funded appropriate education. My generation advocated to close large institutions and to provide small group homes within the community. We were all somewhere on the *political spectrum* but fought for a just common cause. What the hell have these anti-vaxers ever done for their kids, except moan and bemoan their *situation*…and isolated themselves and their children from society?

  91. #91 Stu
    March 29, 2012

    What will happen to these kids who need ongoing care, past the time, when parents can no longer care for them at home?

    Private charities will take care of them. And, of course, if private charities do not, then the parents, or the county, or the state will be at fault and can be sued.

    I wish I was being facetious with this, but a libertarian actually told me this all but verbatim a few days ago.

  92. #92 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    @ Michelle K. Thanks for sharing. Please ignore the Trolls. They have a penchant for attacking any new posters here…in their feeble attempts to get attention.

    I had a *personal* stalking troll, when I was a newbie poster. I think Orac has put my stalking troll in moderation purdah. Another RI regular has her own personal stalking troll who uses a multitude of sock puppets.

    The RI Regulars have your back, so please come back and post again.

  93. #93 lurker
    March 29, 2012

    @lilady-
    See the “Greater Good”- a woman whose son was injured by a vaccine asks the same question.

  94. #94 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    @ Stu: Presently, group homes are 100 % funded by Medicaid, with the Feds, State and County of Origin kicking in…with public tax dollars. Day Programs for adults age 21 and beyond, are also funded by Medicaid…and Medicare. What would happen if Ron Paul or Junior Paul were elected President and appointed their cronies/fellow travelers to *key positions* in the administration?

    Residents of group home are provided with $ 250/year clothing allowance, and a monthly *stipend* of $35/month…funded by Medicaid. How far does that money go to clothe someone and to provide for other expenses?

    Medicaid does not fund intensive PT, OT, speech or behavioral therapies. Rather than waste their money on supporting their heroes and unproven, sometimes dangerous therapies, it would be far better, IMO, to set up a Special Needs Trust, to be funded upon the parents’ deaths, so that their kids’ intensive therapies are paid for.

    When my child was alive, I paid for intensive PT sessions for him. You need hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund a Special Needs Trust, in order to generate enough income to pay for therapies…without depleting the Trust.

  95. #95 Stu
    March 29, 2012

    @lilady: Well, now you’ve hit a pet issue of mine. Ever since the Bush administration started calling the estate tax “Death Tax”, I’ve been floating this little idea…

    If they insist on calling it “Death Tax”, let’s make it a “Death Tax”. Where estate taxes go into a special fund to care for orphans, special needs care when parents are deceased or cannot care for their children, to replace SSI benefits for minors, the works. It could do all of that and then some.

    Of course, Robert would be more than welcome to donate to this trust as well.

  96. #96 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2012

    Ruben,

    Apparently, you didn’t. You still had to ask why she was vaccinating again.

    LMFAO. Talk about misinformed consent eh Orac? Here’s a child who having had natural chicken pox was brought by the mother for a varicella shot and no one from your SBM community had ever explained why such vaccine is not needed. Come on what are you guys thinking? The more the merrier? You guys are so dangerous. Poor kiddo had to be infected twice.

  97. #97 Julian Frost
    March 29, 2012

    @lurker:

    See the “Greater Good”- a woman whose son was injured by a vaccine asks the same question.

    First, go to the “Search” box and put the phrase “Greater Good” into it and Search. Orac has discussed the film. Second, click on the link to Orac’s post about the film. Third, comment there.
    “The Greater Good” is nothing but clever propaganda.

  98. #98 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    @ Stu: Wanna bet…that Offal has already looked into *spending down the assets* for his parents to qualify them for Medicaid-funded nursing home care?

    Wanna bet…that Offal has not purchased long-term care insurance…not because he doesn’t *believe* in it…but because he wants public tax dollars to pay for nursing home care, should he ever require that level of care.

    Didn’t I read somewhere, that Offal and his father were involved in law suit, because of some shady real estate deal?

  99. #99 Chris
    March 29, 2012

    lurker, from Factors Associated With Deafness in Young Children (emphasis added):

    Etiological classification of deafness in 118 children showed the causes were maternal rubella in the first trimester, 28 percent; hereditary factors, 12.7 percent; blood incompatibility, 4.2 percent; childhood meningitis, 3.4 percent; maternal influenza in the first trimester, 2.5 percent; and maternal chickenpox or scarlatina in the first trimester and child trauma, 0.8 percent each. In this group approximately 39 percent had histories of frank abnormalities, but the cause of their deafness was unknown. The remaining 7.6 percent had essentially normal histories.

    So how many pregnant women did you expose to rubella?

  100. #100 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    And from the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association website:

    http://www.asha.org/public/hearing/disorders/causes.htm

    Congenital Causes

    The term congenital hearing loss implies that the hearing loss is present at birth. It can include hereditary hearing loss or hearing loss due to other factors present either in utero (prenatal) or at the time of birth.

    Genetic factors are thought to cause more than 50% of all incidents of congenital hearing loss in children (4). Genetic hearing loss may be autosomal dominant, autosomal recessive, or X-linked (related to the sex chromosome).

    In autosomal dominant hearing loss , one parent who carries the dominant gene for hearing loss and typically has a hearing loss passes it on to the child. In this case there is at least a 50% probability that the child will also have a hearing loss. The probability is higher if both parents have the dominant gene (and typically both have a hearing loss) or if both grandparents on one side of the family have hearing loss due to genetic causes. Because at least one parent usually has a hearing loss, there is prior expectation that the child may have a hearing loss.

    In autosomal recessive hearing loss , both parents who typically have normal hearing, carry a recessive gene. In this case the probability of the child having a hearing loss is 25%. Because both parents usually have normal hearing, and because no other family members have hearing loss, there is no prior expectation that the child may have a hearing loss.

    In X-linked hearing loss, the mother carries the recessive trait for hearing loss on the sex chromosome and passes it on to males, but not to females.

    There are some genetic syndromes,in which, hearing loss is one of the known characteristics. Some examples are Down syndrome (abnormality on a gene), Usher syndrome (autosomal recessive), Treacher Collins syndrome (autosomal dominant), Crouzon syndrome (autosomal dominant), and Alport syndrome (X-linked).

    Other causes of congenital hearing loss that are not hereditary in nature include prenatal infections, illnesses, toxins consumed by the mother during pregnancy or other conditions occurring at the time of birth or shortly thereafter. These conditions typically cause sensorineural hearing loss ranging from mild to profound in degree. Examples include:

    * Intrauterine infections including rubella (German measles), cytomegalovirus, and herpes simplex virus
    * Complications associated with the Rh factor in the blood
    * Prematurity
    * Maternal diabetes
    * Toxemia during pregnancy
    * Lack of oxygen (anoxia)

    lurker, So how many pregnant women did you expose to rubella?

    Acquired Causes

    Acquired hearing loss is a hearing loss which appears after birth, at any time in one’s life, perhaps as a result of a disease, a condition, or an injury. The following are examples of conditions that can cause acquired hearing loss in children are:

    * Ear infections (otitis media) (link to specific section above)
    * Ototoxic (damaging to the auditory system) drugs
    * Meningitis
    * Measles
    * Encephalitis
    * Chicken pox
    * Influenza
    * Mumps
    * Head injury
    * Noise exposure

    lurker, So how many little kids did you expose to meningitis, measles, encephalitis, chicken pox, influenza or mumps?

  101. #101 dt
    March 29, 2012

    You girls are just awesome.

  102. #102 Michael Hughes
    March 29, 2012

    Th1Th2, you are obviously someone who puts a lot of time into this particular topic, and has very strong views about it (forgive any presumptions). Have you every thought about running your own blog about these issues?

  103. #103 Jay Chaplin
    March 29, 2012

    Dear Thingy, @284 you wrote “But I am more interested in Jay’s claim “that Th2 cytokines would lead to the production of IgE – which vaccines do not.”

    Hence, the article.”

    The article you linked to showed induction of IgE following infection of B cells by Rubella, not measles. There was no Th2 effect, as there were no T cells in the experiment with the Ramos cell line. The effect that they saw, which was miniscule by comparison with the weak IL-4 only control and germline/non-specific/likely never translated to protein, was a direct result of infection.

    Great, you posted a link. To try and prove YOUR point that measles rash was caused by IgE induced by Th2 skewing following MMR. The paper, which you admit that you never bothered to read – and no I will not violate copyright laws for you find a library – directly contradicts your stance. No Th2 skewing, no measles induced IgE. Sorry, fail and a new “entitlement fail”.

  104. #104 JGC
    March 29, 2012

    Thingy @ 289

    Infection of human B lymphocytes with MMR vaccine

    Thingy, are you seriously arguing that B lymphocytes develop a rash if incubated with MMR vaccine?

  105. #105 Lawrence
    March 29, 2012

    Insane troll has descended to the “I know you are, but what am I,” phase of its comments….

  106. #106 lurker
    March 29, 2012

    @Chris @lilady @300 @301- An answer to the question-probably as many as you did since there was no vaccines when I was growing up- (I’m 68 and lilady is about 60,Chris is her 50’s.) I had German measles, chicken pox, mumps maybe measles; everyone in my school was quarantined to home when it happened-
    So tell me you how many did you infect? Chris maybe you gave your son measles since you weren’t vaccinated.

  107. #107 Tom Herling
    March 29, 2012

    Thanks to this thread I spent a little time looking over some of the forum postings at mothering.com. I felt as though I’d crossed over to some sort of alternative universe of misinformation, faulty logic and just plain nonsense.

    I have to give those of you who are medical professionals trying to engage them credit for having to struggle with such crap.

  108. #108 MI Dawn
    March 29, 2012

    @lurker: I’m a bit younger than you (50) but know that there WERE vaccines when you were growing up – were you never vaccinated against smallpox? I was, my brother was (my lucky sister, being born in 1967, escaped that vaccine as it was no longer endemic in the US). So your statement of “there was (sic) no vaccines when I was growing up” is false. My mother – who is significantly older then 68 – had the smallpox vaccine.

    As far as how many did I infect with measles, rubella, mumps? I don’t know. I DO know I got mumps from a neighbor (my brother luckily escaped it), chicken pox from a boy at school who infected 15 out of the 25 in the class – which I gave to my brother and (then) baby sister. Since my rubella rash was so mild, my mother didn’t realize I had it (they didn’t call it the 3 day measles for nothing – and I was prone to heat rash anyway) until the 2nd day…fortunately I had not been out except in our back yard for several days so we don’t *think* I infected anyone with that.

    My mother was very prompt at plopping us into bed and enforcing isolation at the sign of any illness so we generally didn’t infect too many people, even within the family as siblings were forbidden to enter the room of the sick child and we did have separate bedrooms.

    I couldn’t tell you how many I infected with pertussis because no one recognized I had it until about 3 weeks in when I was still coughing till I was breathless and vomiting. My MD called it “asthma” but did finally give me cough syrup with codeine to calm the cough. Many of my coworkers went through the same illness at about the same time, so the index case is questionable (all are/were adults in whom the vaccine had probably worn off) but it wasn’t until late in the outbreak that anyone realized what was happening since at that time they weren’t recommending re-vaccination for adults. I don’t think it was ever reported to the state Board of Health.

  109. #109 Chris
    March 29, 2012

    lurker, we know you don’t know if you gave rubella to pregnant women. I may have infected some too. That is not the point.

    The point was that you dismissed it as a mild disease, and you needed to learn that it was a major cause of disability between WWII and into the 1960s, when a vaccine was developed (I know my younger sister received the vaccines).

    It was also one of the citations in answer to you glib “Re:Hearing loss-development of newer and more approriate antibiotics to treat ear infections common in childhood.”

    I should add that when my kids got ear infections in the 1990s they were given amoxicillin, a kind of semi-synthetic penicillin. And the only reason to change antibiotics is due to antibiotic resistance.

    In the futre, lurker, when you make statements, be prepared to back them. Because you were very wrong about ear infections being a major cause of deafness.

  110. #110 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    @ lurker: I will answer any questions about my childhood illnesses, AFTER you explain why you posted this:

    Developmental Disabilities Increasing in US- CDC stats

    http://www.cdc.gov/Features/dsDev_Disabilities/
    Over the last 12 years, the
    Prevalence of DDs has increased 17.1%—that’s about 1.8 million more children with DDs in 2006–2008 compared to a decade earlier;
    Prevalence of autism increased 289.5%;
    Prevalence of ADHD increased 33.0%; and,
    Prevalence of hearing loss decreased 30.9%.

    Posted by: lurker | March 28, 2012 6:32 PM

    Lurker, we see what you did there…and we’re calling you out on it.

    You linked to an article about increased incidence of developmental disabilities. We provided you with information about the changing diagnostic criteria.

    Stop acting like the troll you are…by flitting away from the topic you brought up…to a new topic.

    What impact has the changing diagnostic criteria had on the incidence of autism spectrum disorder, lurker?

  111. #111 lurker
    March 29, 2012

    @Mi Dawn- yes I had the small pox vaccine-I was refering to the MMR(V)-

  112. #112 lurker
    March 29, 2012
  113. #113 lurker
    March 29, 2012

    @lilady-
    New Study: Autism Linked To Environment

    h ttp://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=autism-rise-driven-by-environment

  114. #114 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2012

    The article you linked to showed induction of IgE following infection of B cells by Rubella, not measles. There was no Th2 effect, as there were no T cells in the experiment with the Ramos cell line. The effect that they saw, which was miniscule by comparison with the weak IL-4 only control and germline/non-specific/likely never translated to protein, was a direct result of infection.

    You said:

    Th2 cytokines would lead to the production of IgE – which vaccines do not.”

    and then…

    […]measles does not induce IgE even at the transcript level, that is done by the Rubella component only.

    Are you done arguing with yourself?

    There was no Th2 effect, as there were no T cells in the experiment with the Ramos cell line.

    No $#!+. So you want to convince everyone that you don’t have any T cells. I see.

    And of course, what would I expect of someone who is also a primary germline antibody denier?

  115. #115 Chris
    March 29, 2012

    From that article:

    Many researchers have theorized that a pregnant woman’s exposure to chemical pollutants, particularly metals and pesticides, could be altering a developing baby’s brain structure, triggering autism.

    The factors are prenatal, just like Congenital Rubella Syndrome.

  116. #116 Ren
    March 29, 2012

    Study on “Lurker”: h_ttp://www.techspot.com/news/44394-study-internet-trolls-are-drunk-with-power.html

  117. #117 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2012

    Jay (RI’s Charlie Chaplin),

    Yohooo…

    Immunoglobulin E responses to diphtheria and tetanus toxoids after booster with aluminium-adsorbed and fluid DT-vaccines.

    Immunoglobulin E responses to diphtheria and tetanus toxoids were investigated in pre- and postbooster samples of 104 children given, at 10 years of age, a DT booster with either an adsorbed (n = 51) or a non-adsorbed, fluid vaccine (n = 53). Vaccination with adsorbed DT is part of a national immunisation programme and represents the first regular booster given to these children, primarily immunised with three doses of adsorbed DT at age 3-6 months. The vaccines, with a content of 30 Lf of diphtheria toxoid and 7.5 Lf of tetanus toxoid per millilitre, were given for booster in a dose of 0.25 ml as a deep subcutaneous injection. In the prebooster samples, 3 and 14% had measurable IgE to diphtheria and tetanus, respectively. These rates rose to 94 and 92% in the postbooster samples, respectively.[…] The study thus revealed unexpectedly high rates of IgE responses to diphtheria and tetanus toxoids in a regular DT booster vaccination programme, which were associated to high rates of local side effects.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

    h_ttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7668036

  118. #118 Narad
    March 29, 2012

    Jay (RI’s Charlie Chaplin)

    Something tells me that RI’s Mortimer Snerd thinks that’s an insult.

  119. #119 Stu
    March 29, 2012

    And of course, what would I expect of someone who is also a primary germline antibody denier?

    Are you still waiting for that fresh batch of Thorazine, Thingy? You’re getting less and less coherent.

  120. #120 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    Re: http://www.techspot.com/news/44394-study-internet-trolls-are-drunk-with-power.html

    Ren..a pox on you for not posting:

    WARNING: Put any hot drinks down before reading

    Now I’m stuck cleaning up my laptop screen and keyboard…a terrible waste of a great cup of coffee 🙂

  121. #121 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2012

    I have to give those of you who are medical professionals trying to engage them credit for having to struggle with such crap.

    Those medical professionals you were referring to are in Exhibit A of post #269 in which they were found guilty to putting a child in harm’s way. Also found liable were the mother of the child, who ironically took advice from real experts like the CDC*, and an idiot spectator named Ruben.

    *The CDC said NO, DO NOT VACCINATE!.

  122. #122 lurker
    March 29, 2012

    “The committee finds that evidence convincingly supports a causal relationship between some vaccines and some adverse events—such as MMR, varicella zoster, influenza, hepatitis B, meningococcal, and tetanus-containing vaccines linked to anaphylaxis.”
    http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx

  123. #123 Reuben
    March 29, 2012

    “Those medical professionals you were referring to are in Exhibit A of post #269 in which they were found guilty to putting a child in harm’s way. Also found liable were the mother of the child, who ironically took advice from real experts like the CDC*, and an idiot spectator named Ruben.”

    Someone’s mad that she got her RN license revoked and is now pretending to be a lawyer (on top of pretending to know basic biology) by tossing around words like “found guilty” (though there was no criminal trial) and “found liable” (though there was no civil trial). Tell us, troll, who found who “guilty” and/or “liable”? You?

    ‘Cause your opinions matters SO much to all of us.

    Also, it’s “Reuben”, with an E, like my grandfather.

    @Ren: I second Lilady. That picture was too much, puckered lips and all.

  124. #124 Chris
    March 29, 2012

    Cherry picking quotes, lurker? It continues with: “Additionally, evidence favors rejection of five vaccine-adverse event relationships, including MMR vaccine and autism and inactivated influenza vaccine and asthma episodes.”

    And it concludes with “However, for the majority of cases (135 vaccine-adverse event pairs), the evidence was inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship. Overall, the committee concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines.”

    Did you notice the words: ‘”concludes that few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”?

  125. #125 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    “Are you still waiting for that fresh batch of Thorazine, Thingy? You’re getting less and less coherent.”

    Stu: I believe that SFB Troll refuses anti-psychotic medication. It is all part of Troll’s *con game*…to stay on the dole, to cycle in and out of the mental health system (to have internet access, a bed and regular meals).

    Does anyone know any other sites that Th1Th2 has posted on? The mothering.com site is a treasure trove of *Thingisms*.

  126. #126 Stu
    March 29, 2012

    Found on sciencebasedmedicine:

    # Th1Th2 on 03 Apr 2009 at 2:52 pm
    Weing,
    Vaccines do not prevent diseases. They are designed to induce diseases, obviously. Feed a malnourished kid with good food and the kid will survive. However, if you vaccinate them, the kid will deteriorate and even die.

  127. #127 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2012
    Let’s stay on the topic, shall we?

    You have not made a single remark that is on the topic, which is Bob Sears’s HuffPo performance.

    What made you think I have not? Check #34.

  128. #128 JGC
    March 29, 2012

    Dang, chris at 324 beat me to it.

  129. #129 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2012

    REuben,

    That’s supposed to be a metaphor?? I don’t know but I have a few more choices which I considered to be more appropriate (i.e., stupid, ignorant, negligent, insane among others). You see I’ve already used the word “idiot” just so you know.

  130. #130 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2012

    Dang, chris at 324 beat me to it.

    Indeed, by moving the goalpost.

  131. #131 Narad
    March 29, 2012

    Does anyone know any other sites that Th1Th2 has posted on?

    There’s a metric assload at SBM, of course.

  132. #132 Jay Chaplin
    March 29, 2012

    Dear Th1Th2, thank you for providing a link to another paper you have not read. Shall I deconstruct it for you and point out where it does not support your spewings, or will you simply deny it because you won’t go to the library to read what it actually says.

    Going on the abstract alone doesn’t work. You have now posted two links that directly contradict your thesis.

  133. #133 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2012

    Dear Th1Th2, thank you for providing a link to another paper you have not read. Shall I deconstruct it for you and point out where it does not support your spewings, or will you simply deny it because you won’t go to the library to read what it actually says.

    Take off your primary germline antibody denialism first then you can proceed but until then entertain me with your myth.

  134. #134 Stu
    March 29, 2012

    Ooh, here are some more:

    But there exist another form of immunity that does not require antibody production and will make all vaccines worthless. Do you know what it is? It’s easy.

    There is no room for any nutritional value in vaccines whatsoever.

    Where did you learn that superstitious belief that humans make formaldehyde. First, humans DO NOT synthesize formaldehyde. Second, the presence of endogenous formaldehyde in your body is a result of metabolism from exposure to exogenous formaldehyde. Since formaldehyde is a toxic element, they are further broken down into a lesser toxin until they are completely eliminated from the body.

    Detoxification of formaldehyde is a physiologic event because it is TOXIC to humans! You guys are hilarious. LOL

    I think this is my favorite:

    Think of adjuvants like a bottle of food seasoning. It is a blend of different spices that enhances food flavor.

    A poison is a poison no matter how small.

    Ooh, here come the precious bodily fluids:

    According to Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, food, air and water are among man’s PHYSIOLOGIC NEEDS. Without them, man cannot survive since they are inherent part of all living things. Safety concerns only apply once they become toxic or polluted. Vaccines, however, do NOT belong to this category since they are made from toxins, viruses, bacteria and toxic substances let alone biologically modified and chemically denatured. They are inherently unsafe. They are just being modified to become less toxic.

    No, wait — NEW favorite:

    Good health does not carry any risk.

    Character assassination is not my forte.

    That’s why responsible parents should always be at their sides to assist them in walking without getting their knees scraped, to clear out obstructions that might cause tripping, etc. Now, if you think that abrasions, lacerations etc are like everyday scenario that kids MUST endure, then obviously something is wrong with your parenting skills.

  135. #135 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    @ Rueben: I find it hard to believe that *SFB Troll ever had a registered nurse license…see my post # 244:

    *SFB* Troll: I am a Registered Nurse and you are a full-of- shit pathological liar.

    @ Jay Chaplin: You have done a superb job at *addressing* *SFB Troll’s” comments.

    Aside from convincing Orac to wield the ban hammer against the odious troll…sometimes, in order to frustrate Its constant need for attention and engagement, I talk *around* the *SFB Troll*

    @ Narad: One of the classics from SBM was Harriet Hall’s comment about the Troll’s inanities:

    “…like trying to nail Jello to the wall”.

  136. #136 Beamup
    March 29, 2012

    Of course, there was really no call for Harriet to insult a perfectly good dessert that way.

  137. #137 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    Thanks a lot Stu…but you did not preface your comment with..

    WARNING: Put any hot drinks down before reading 🙂

  138. #138 Zach Miller
    March 29, 2012

    So wait a second. This is too good to be true. Is Thingy saying that the only way the body gets infected with disease is through cuts and scrapes? If a child (what about an adult?) trips and scratches his knee, that’s the ONLY vector for infection?

    Boy, my Cystic Fibrosis strongly disagrees! Does Thingy realize that merely by breathing, you pick up millions of bateria every day? Most people slough them off without issue, but CF patients collect respiratory infections like Pokemon. I have three species of Psuedomonas, a particularly nasty strain of Mycobacteria, Staphylococcus, and some minor hangers-on in my lungs. I’ve been on strong antibiotics for the last year because of my circus of bacteria. And yet my chest was never torn assunder in a violent accident.

    When you pass by a puddle of standing meltwater (I live in AK) that’s been recently driven over, miniscule water droplets still hang in the air, and with them, Mycobacteria. Which you inhale–unwittingly.

    So how does Thingy explain my infections? Or does she ignore any infection that’s not associated with an immunization?

  139. #139 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    WARNING: Remember what happened last December when the SFB Troll’s head exploded:

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/12/now_ive_seen_it_all_an_anti-vaccine_chil.php

    460

    Man, I go away for 24 hours and look at this place! 459 posts! What on earth have you been feeding the Thingy? There’s thingyshit all over the carpet and walls and how are we going to get that Jean-stench out of the drapes? Would somebody at least light some Respectful Incense™ (Rapturous Reason is my fave) and let’s try to get this joint cleaned up before ol’ Blinky Box shows up and reads us the riot act.

    Posted by: Pareidolius | December 19, 2011 11:16 PM
    461

    I am innocent!!! I scarcely fed SFB Thingy troll…I merely named it and baptized it with RI holy water.

    Yuck, the place reeks of Thingy’s brown brain matter…who knew that its head was going to explode.

    We really need to clean up the blog and “terminally disinfect” sh** for brains troll.

    Posted by: lilady | December 19, 2011 11:55 PM

  140. #140 Phoenix Woman
    March 29, 2012

    Thingy: Which hospital and which job?

  141. #141 Politicalguineapig
    March 29, 2012

    Stu: I saw that last comment a while ago and laughed. I’m sure Th1Th2 must have been mistaking zer baby dolls for children. Seriously, what kind of parent thinks that kids should never ever learn to cope with a scrape or a bruise? It’s part of growing up.

  142. #142 Jay Chaplin
    March 29, 2012

    I love it! Personally, I suspect that Thingy is really strongly PRO-vax and has decided to take the hit in credibility and be hated everywhere by posting anti-vax drivel so inconsistent and moronic that even the hardcore anti-vax crowd over at sMothering didn’t want to be associated with it. I’ll say it again, Thingy single-handedly spews out enough garbage to discredit the entire anti-vax movement as a bunch of deranged loons… Not that they needed much help.

    Lovely Thingy writes “Take off your primary germline antibody denialism first”, asserting that germline transcripts are expressed as antibodies during a primary infection. Yet another opportunity to show anti-vax nutters don’t know what they are talking about. From the 1999 paper by the same authors as the one Thingy linked to”This transcript, termed germline ε (Gε),3 is induced by IL-4 and to a lesser extent by IL-13 and cannot be translated into mature IgE protein (7).”

    Have fun all, I’m off for a long restful birthday weekend far away from computers and mobile phones. Thank you for all you do Thingy, to discredit anti-vax loons everywhere.

  143. #143 Denice Walter
    March 29, 2012

    In other news…

    There is much yowling and shrieking, hand-wringing, tearing of hair and rending of garments @ AoA, the Canary Party, Thinking Moms’ Revolution et al at the CDC’s announcement of US autism prevalence at 1 in 88.

    Oh wait, that’s not really news because that’s how they behave every day.

  144. #144 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    @ Jay Chaplin: Enjoy your weekend and,

  145. #145 lurker
    March 29, 2012

    To whom it may concern-the “SBM’ elite:
    Your ridiculous answers to Th1Th2 show complete lack of maturity, judgement, appropriate content, and are totally irrelevant to the topic.
    You all get off on them- I guess it feeds your narcissism that you are so clever, informed etc etc.etc ad nauseam
    It isn’t really mandatory to comment. I have to weed through them too! Grow up!
    PS:Thanks Chris for telling me to avoid drinking urine and asking me how many
    pregnant women I infected when I was 8.

  146. #146 lurker
    March 29, 2012

    To whom it may concern-the “SBM’ elite:
    Your ridiculous answers to Th1Th2 show complete lack of maturity, judgement, appropriate content, and are totally irrelevant to the topic.

  147. #147 Chris
    March 29, 2012

    Oh, lurker, who provides a noble model on how to treat others: How should they treat Th1Th2? Especially after she says nasty things about others?

    I actually ignore her.

  148. #148 AdamG
    March 29, 2012

    Your ridiculous answers to Th1Th2 show complete lack of maturity, judgement, appropriate content, and are totally irrelevant to the topic.

    Oh get over it, lurker…this post is just classic Tone Trolling. Look it up if you’ve never heard of it, we’ve seen it all here before. Spoilers: you don’t get to decide what is mature, appropriate, or relevant to the topic.

    Also, can you please explain how your drive by posts with random citations (comments 174, 252, etc.) have “appropriate content, and are totally irrelevant to the topic”? Much appreciated.

  149. #149 lurkerl
    March 29, 2012

    If Th1Th2 is mentally ill, is this a mature way of handling it bullies. You don’t have to
    comment because no one really takes her seriously anyway.

  150. #150 Narad
    March 29, 2012

    What made you think I have not? Check #34.

    Nah, I’d still just file that as “third attempt at threadjacking.”

  151. #151 AdamG
    March 29, 2012

    If Th1Th2 is mentally ill, is this a mature way of handling it bullies. You don’t have to comment because no one really takes her seriously anyway.

    So does this mean you’re encouraging us to all just ignore you too? No one here takes you seriously either.

  152. #152 Narad
    March 29, 2012

    If Th1Th2 is mentally ill, is this a mature way of handling it bullies. You don’t have to comment because no one really takes her seriously anyway.

    This is an odd thing to say in light of the fact that you yourself are still garnering responses.

  153. #153 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    grandma lurker, if you’re getting the vapors and clutching your pearls, while defending Thingy…why do you post here?

    You’ve been trolling here alongside Thingy for months. Why?

    I suggest that you find another (more genteel) blog to post on, where your brilliance will be appreciated.

  154. #154 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    @ Denice Walter: Here’s the CDC Press Release on the autism incidence:

    http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2012/p0329_autism_disorder.html

    Hmmm..I see this paragraph in that Press Release…

    “The results of CDC’s study highlight the importance of the Obama administration’s efforts to address the needs of people with ASDs, including the work of the Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee (IACC) at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. The IACC’s charge is to facilitate ASD research, screening, intervention, and education. As part of this effort, the National Institutes of Health has invested in research to identify possible risk factors and effective therapies for people with ASDs.”

    The IACC, its members and its member/organizations are on AoA’s Enemies List:

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/04/secretary-sebelius-announces-new-members-of-the-interagency-autism-coordinating-.html

  155. #155 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2012

    I love it! Personally, I suspect that Thingy is really strongly PRO-vax

    Well, I strongly believe that you are a creationist. Here’s why.

    Yet another opportunity to show anti-vax nutters don’t know what they are talking about. From the 1999 paper by the same authors as the one Thingy linked to”This transcript, termed germline ε (Gε),3 is induced by IL-4 and to a lesser extent by IL-13 and cannot be translated into mature IgE protein (7).”

    Who told you to stop?

    However, the presence of this transcript is essential for final switch recombination events leading to the production of mature IgE transcipts (8). Therefore, the expression of Gε is generally accepted as the first step of IgE class switching.

    It’s not yet Sunday, but I have to say go pound sand.

  156. #156 Th1Th2
    March 29, 2012

    OK, gotta split. Have fun on your birthday, Jay.

    …just being natural.

  157. #157 Composer99
    March 29, 2012

    OK, gotta split

    If this means we get a temporary reprieve from your drivel, then please feel free to stay “split” as long as possible.

    Get away from the computer, go get some fresh air, maybe even take a walk on one of those wonderfully hygeinic sidewalks.

  158. #158 Zachary Miller
    March 29, 2012

    Jay: I love it! Personally, I suspect that Thingy is really strongly PRO-vax

    Thingy: Well, I strongly believe that you are a creationist. Here’s why.

    Where’s why? What does this even MEAN? Thingy’s response are, if nothing else, endlessly fascinating.

  159. #159 Michelle K.
    March 29, 2012

    Michelle K. here:

    I’m not afraid of troll attacks, so don’t worry about me. I’m a message board veteran, and I will continue to post because I think it is important to share my experience of how a thinking parent can get caught up in the vaccine hysteria and Dr. Bob’s falsely-reassuring delayed schedule, see the light, and then start vaccinating on the CDC/APA schedule.

    After a light case of chicken pox when my daughter was 2, I discussed vaccination with her pediatrician. The choices were to do a blood test to check her titers for immunity, then vaccinate if she lacked immunity, or just vaccinate. I chose to have her vaccinated rather than go through the blood test AND the shot.

    FWIW, her chicken pox came from an adult with shingles. Obviously, the shingles-infected adult had had natural chicken pox as a child.

    I left my child unvaccinated long enough for her to contract a natural chicken pox infection. She may very well be at risk of shingles as an adult – not because I vaccinated, but because I didn’t vaccinate SOON ENOUGH. I hear there is a shingles vaccine for older adults now, and I hope my daughter can take advantage of that at some point in her life to avoid a shingles infection as a result of my mistake in waiting to vaccinate.

    Also, how much more clear can I make it: my son developed wheezing typical of asthma at five weeks old. He was not “sick,” as in he did not have any type of contagious illness. He just wheezed. He had a reactive airway. He had not had any vaccinations at that point. Subsequent testing found that his airway was reacting to reflux, and he was later diagnosed with asthma. (I think doctors are pretty reluctant to give an asthma diagnosis to a child under six months old, preferring to call it Reactive Airway, hence the delay in an actual asthma diagnosis.)

    Anyway, my point is: my child developed reactive airway symptoms well before any vaccinations were administered. We went through a rough year with his breathing during viral illnesses, but this past year he has been much healthier, thanks to daily asthma medications (Flovent). Yay for modern, science-based medicine!

    I had an asthmatic infant. If he had contracted, say, pertussis in the months prior to being fully vaccinated, it would have been disastrous. Thank you to all the parents who choose vaccination – you protected my baby during those vulnerable months. Having a vulnerable infant made me realize how silly and selfish I had been to delay vaccines for my first child.

  160. #160 lilady
    March 29, 2012

    @ Michelle K. Goodness gracious…you have already advanced to senior status here at RI…congratulations!

    In case you haven’t already “bookmarked” the CDC Pink Book website, here it is:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/index.html

    “I hear there is a shingles vaccine for older adults now, and I hope my daughter can take advantage of that at some point in her life to avoid a shingles infection as a result of my mistake in waiting to vaccinate.”

    See what the ACIP (Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices), has on the Zoster vaccine:

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6044a5.htm

    The ladies of RI welcome you.

  161. #161 Sid Offit
    March 29, 2012

    JGC

    Being an adult member of any human society obligates you to take steps to ensure you do not place other members at risk unnecessarily; being a parent obligates you to take reasonable steps to ensure your children do not place others at risk unnecessarily. (You’re really too clueless to grasp this fundamental concept?)

    I thought you were done interacting with me. Guess not.

    Existing creates no obligation other than not violating the rights of others. As I have explained over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over not vaccinating places no one at risk and violates no rights.

    Refer to the thread.

    This is like teaching a remedial thinking class. Yes those teachers ARE underpaid.

    Finally, repeating the same discredited concepts over and over and over and over and over and over and over again does not make them true. Yes, it is entertaining to discredit them but it does, after a while, become tedious.

    On to the rest of your irrational post. : (

  162. #162 Narad
    March 30, 2012

    Existing creates no obligation other than not violating the rights of others.

    What creates the rights of others, O teacher of remedial thinking?

  163. #163 Sid Offit
    March 30, 2012

    JGC

    Just more tired gibberish. I’ll sift through it tomorrow to see if I can find a nugget of confusion to clarify.

    —————

    @Th1Th2

    Try helminth vaccines!

    I wouldn’t put anything past them

    When did I say I was an RN?

    LOL. They think I’m a real estate investor named Richard.

    ——–

    @Narad

    Let me clarify. Initiation of force against the innocent. Do I have to cut your meat for you as well?

    ————

    @Vicki
    My arguments focus on the morality of an action. These laws for the most part should not exist. I’d tell a hotelier to obey the law so as not to get thrown into a cage. With laws in place, a guest going into a hotel has certain expectations. To, for example, turn off the sprinklers when a guest thinks they are on is problematic. This reflects the problems created when government gets involved in areas that don’t concern them.

    Safety codes should, by enlarge, not exist – history of fires or not. Places that have histories of fire have few customers.

    The codes should not exist. Since they do people expect that type protection so the signs don’t apply. In a free world, it’s all about expectations. Tell your workers the doors are open but really locked and your liable.

  164. #164 Sid Offit
    March 30, 2012

    Rights are not created. They exist. Do you not believe you have rights?

  165. #165 Sid Offit
    March 30, 2012

    Stay thirsty, my friends.

  166. #166 Narad
    March 30, 2012

    Rights are not created. They exist. Do you not believe you have rights?

    You have now gone from the frying pan of requiring a theory of agency to the fire of having to construct ontology. Let me reprise the original remark with a touch of emphasis for complete clarity:

    Existing creates no obligation other than not violating the rights of others.

    See, a political philosopher of your standing should have been able to get past the original sloppiness with a simple clarification. Now you’ve got some work to do.

  167. #167 Kelly M Bray
    March 30, 2012

    Just so people can remember, we are trying to eradicate Measles all over the world. It has no non human reservoir. We are not just trying to stop it here, but everywhere. It can be done. In the last 150 years it has been responsible for 200 million deaths. It currently causes 45 million cases and 800,000 deaths a year. It may have only 1 per 1000 death rate in the US, but in the rest of the world it is 10+ percent. If you don’t have a valid medical reason for not being immunized you should be. If you have a philosophical objection, then you are an ignorant, philosophically selfish, child killing S O B and should get your butt kicked

  168. #168 Kelly M Bray
    March 30, 2012

    Is Sid real or just a very elaborate Onion gag?

  169. #169 LW
    March 30, 2012

    You know, I always thought that libertarianism was about taking responsibility for yourself and providing for yourself and your family rather than expecting society to provide for you. Sid’s attitude seems exactly contra to that: he expects society to protect him and his children against disease and expects society to care for him and his family if they should get sick. I would have thought that, as a libertarian, he would *want* to be vaccinated so that he would be protected as much as possible even if no one around him chose to be vaccinated. It’s kind of like having a gun and learning to use it instead of relying on the State to protect you.

    I don’t think Sid is a libertarian. I think he’s just utterly selfish and self-centered.

  170. #170 Lawrence
    March 30, 2012

    @LW & Kelly – yes, Robert is very much real. I wouldn’t say his is a true libertarian, maybe half, with a bunch of “Sovereign Man” crap thrown in for good measure.

    He loves to argue from the standpoint of “theory” without any consideration as to how those theories would work in the real world. Just like Karl Marx painted a wonderful picture of the ultimate goals of communism (which attracted, of course, a huge and enthusiastic following), everything fell apart when people actually tried to put his theories into practice.

    Just because Ayn Rand or Ron Paul expouse(d) libertarian theories about how things should be, gives them no special dispensation for how things actually are. Robert can say “how” things should be as long as he wants (again, at least he can put together coherent thoughts, for the most part). But what he can’t do is say with any sort of definitive authority that things “will” work the way that he says they will (if we all suddenly adopted his philosophy).

    In this day and age of the 24 hour news cycle, where one bad accident involving a product (especially with a child) can force changes to be made across entire industries, it is just plain silly for Robert to expect that we, as a civilization, would sudden become okay with throwing the rules out the window & hope for the best…..philosophies like Robert’s (and Karl Marx’s) that leave no room for accomodation of past history, people’s actions & activities, or bad behavior in general, isn’t anything that could work on a practical scale.

    As much as it probably pains Robert, he’ll have to put up with government regulation / interference – as he calls it. He’ll continue to post here, on a government sponsored high-speed communication system, railing against what he considers to be affronts to his personal freedom (where, in a lot of countries, doing just that would either not be possible or possibly result in a death sentence).

    While our system isn’t perfect, it has been successful where many others have failed, and it at least offers outlets for change, unlike many others.

    Winston Churchill once said, Democracy is the worst kind of government, except for every other kind.

  171. #171 Antaeus Feldspar
    March 30, 2012

    I’m not sure that Robert’s real malfunction isn’t just plain contrarianism – assert anything to him, no matter how obvious, and he feels he has to contradict it – even if doing so makes him look an idiot, an asshole, or both at once. Witness his repulsive “isn’t she pretty” declaration in response to a young girl badly scarred by a VPD, and his embrace of pox parties which would decimate exactly what he keeps claiming keeps him and his family safe from VPDs, their low frequency here in the US.

  172. #172 Michael Hughes
    March 30, 2012

    One internets to Kelly at #368. Sprayed tea all over my laptop at that one.

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