Respectful Insolence

Best retort ever?

I have to hand it to Autismum. Remember the Open Letter to Kerri Rivera she wrote, the one criticizing her for using bleach (Miracle Mineral Solution, often referred to as MMS) to try to “cure” autism? I referred to it yesterday when I pointed out how the pro-MMS apologists were striking back at their critics. Well, it turns out that pro-MMS apologists have also swarmed like flying monkeys into the comments of Autismum’s open letter. Autismum, however, seems quite capable of handling them. I’ll show you what I mean. Here’s a comment from someone named Autumn. It’s basically a testimonial:

My son is doing great on MMS after just two weeks. We run a Son-Rise Program, where we embrace our child’s autism and challenges and find ways to connect through play. My son Liam has made great strides in this program the past year and a half, but there is a noticeable difference in his attention span ability the last week. He is watching my mouth form words now, not bouncing off the walls as much as he had been before. He has had yeast issues, many food sensitivities and we are on strict diets. Yet he would have stomach aches and gas pains are almost daily. These have disappeared with using MMS (small dosage, working up each day to a max dose of only 9 activated drops throughout 12 hrs). He has had absolutely NO negative side effects. He is hugging me, chasing his sister around more. I researched MMS thoroughly, all the arguments against also, before I began because I would never want to harm my child to overcome autism (hence, why we chose a very child-directed approach for therapy also in the first place). I don’t plan on subjecting him to an enema unless he understood and allowed me to because he is only three and I want to keep his trust. I will follow the other protocols and Kerri Rivera has been nothing but helpful to me in my search to help restore my child’s health. I totally believe autism is an immune-disorder and until we have an open mind to consider immune-therapies like MMS offers, we won’t know what can help these children. 1 in 88! Come on, we have to take this epidemic serious and listen to the innovations that rise from intelligent, caring people. Please do more research before you discredit something. IT IS WORKING, THE CHILDREN ARE GETTING BETTER. That evidence will not go away.

To which Autismum replied:

Your son sounds adorable. Please stop feeding him bleach.

Now, there’s some Insolence! I tip my hat to Autismum. Oh, wait. I’m a Plexiglass box full of multicolored blinking lights. I don’t have a hat to tip. Never mind.

Be that as it may, the rest of Autismum’s reply is worth quoting:

MMS creator, Jim Humble is a charlatan and has started a church based around this wretched stuff. Further, just because you ” totally believe autism is an immune-disorder” doesn’t make it so. Even if it were how would MMS help that? There’s a huge flaw in your rationale right there.

As for autism being an epidemic can you not see that this term is being bandied about to frighten people out of making good choices for their children’s health? This is recruitment to a fringe idea to suck you in and get you to part with your hard earned cash on stuff like MMS.

You contend that, “we have to take this epidemic serious and listen to the innovations that rise from intelligent, caring people” perhaps so but if you think a woman who encourages child abuse is “caring” then we have very different ideas of what that word means.

You tell ‘em!

Even though Autismum seems pretty capable of handling the influx of pro-MMS flying monkeys, it wouldn’t hurt if some of you, my readers, flew over there to lend a bit of tactical air support. I know from first hand experience that such an infestation can be quite annoying and isolating without a contingent of pro-science bloggers and commenters who have your back. Tell ‘em Orac sent you.

Comments

  1. #1 lilady
    June 12, 2012

    Best retort ever? Quite possibly Orac!

    Who could ever forget Autismum and her many posts about the Patriot Nurse?

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/01/19/a-black-hole-of-antivaccine-misinformation/

    Many of the RI ladies have been posting on her blogs…we’re waiting for the guys to join us there. Also, open her articles about her adorable son Cledwin…you’re in for a treat.

    She’s a force to be reckoned with, and a welcome addition to our science community.

  2. #2 Autismum
    http://autismum.com/
    June 12, 2012

    I am SO flattered. Thank you Orac. And do please just have a peep and see my not at all ill, injure, broken or stolen son. As always, Lilady is right he is LUSH!

  3. #3 Darwy
    Røde grøde med fløde
    June 12, 2012

    I love it when they say I don’t understand the chemistry of MMS.

    Trust me, I understand the chemistry and the toxicity of it. Quit bleaching your kids’ gastrointestinal tracts, FFS.

  4. #4 rose
    June 12, 2012

    As a mother this nonsense makes me ill. Each child is a wonder and not someone in need of fixing. I made a comment but you don’t really seem to need help.

  5. #5 Old Rockin' Dave
    June 12, 2012

    My nephew and I are both on the autism spectrum. Let anyone come near either of us with MMS and they will swiftly learn how it feels to receive a bleach enema.

  6. #6 chromesthesia
    June 12, 2012

    You go, Autismum.

    Feeding an autistic child bleach. What the hell is wrong with people?

  7. #7 sheepmilker
    June 12, 2012

    Old Rockin’ Dave:

    THAT is the best retort ever!

  8. #8 Autismum
    http://autismum.com/
    June 12, 2012

    I agree with sheepmilker. That’s a classic Old Rockin’ Dave

  9. #9 Autismum
    http://autismum.com/
    June 12, 2012

    Thanks for your comment, Rose. What I need now is a beer xx

  10. #10 herr doktor bimler
    June 12, 2012

    I rate for Science Mom’s post:
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2012/06/open-letter-to-biomeddlers.html

    “You’re bleaching your child you ditchpig” — sheer poetry!

  11. #11 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    June 12, 2012

    Thanks Autismum but I am digging on your passive-aggressive style much more. Autumn is the same one who posted the same tosh on my blog. I’ll have to pay yours a visit and go “SM” on Jessica. These women have to just stop this and not just the MMS shit. All of it.

  12. #12 Denice Walter
    June 12, 2012

    @ Autismum:
    @ Science Mom:

    Altho’ both of your posts are spectacular I think that you could manage a little more swearing: usage of MMS is dangerous and inhumane so not best described by polite language.

    -btw- I imagine that swearing might be very good in Welsh

  13. #13 herr doktor bimler
    June 12, 2012

    I imagine that swearing might be very good in Welsh

    I am advised that the Welsh were a clean-living and Godly people who had never heard of vice or degeneracy until the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons; consequently, all their obscenities are loan-words from English.
    I do not entirely trust my informant.

  14. #14 Autistic Lurker
    June 12, 2012

    @Autismum,

    I could make you some beer? this week-end, I’ll be brewing the barley wine I mentionned some post ago.

    A.L.

  15. #15 Autismum
    http://autismum.com/
    June 12, 2012

    Welsh swearing is great it sounds vicious. Here’s one to use daily, cachu (cacky only the ck is pronounced like the ch in Bach as in Johann Sebastian)
    and Science Mom, your post absolutely rules I put up a post linking to it. I do think it’s time to call a spade a spade.
    Autumn hasn’t returned but Jessica keeps flouncing off then coming back for more.
    Had a visit from one calling himself Autismwars. Had a look at his blog post on MMS
    “I logged onto the group and saw a lot of familiar names. REALLY SUPER SMART warrior moms, whom I know would never jump in blindly on a new treatment without doing their research…”
    “super smart warrior moms” oxymoron much?
    http://autismwars.wordpress.com/2012/06/04/mms/

  16. #16 Autismum
    http://autismum.com/
    June 12, 2012

    forgot to add, cahcu means sh*t

  17. #17 elburto
    June 12, 2012

    Anyone who’d do that to a child is dim gwerth rhech dafad .

  18. #18 Autismum
    http://autismum.com/
    June 12, 2012

    Dwi’n cytuno Elburto

  19. #19 Denice Walter
    June 12, 2012

    @ herr dokto bimler:

    Actually, I heard exacly the same about the Irish and I also do not entirely trust my informant(s)

    -btw- the correct phrase to address MMS promoters is the ancient and extremely versatile Anglo-Saxon: up yours.

  20. #20 Autismum
    http://autismum.com/
    June 12, 2012

    @ herr dokto bimler:
    no, i believe our swears are our own and we were mad naked warriors (in the real sense) before the Anglo Saxons arrived. Dunno about the Irish but being married to one I’ve acquired some lovely phrases that come in very handy. “One man shower” is my favourite.

  21. #21 Jenny
    June 12, 2012

    ““super smart warrior moms” oxymoron much?”

    So you are saying that moms who fight for their kids are dumb? Maybe if your kids get cancer you can just love them well, right?
    I will never understand how you let ignorance and fear prevent you from treating the medical illnesses that your kids have. Maybe… maybe you people here have kids that are doing well… everyone speaking? No GI issues? No seizures? No auto-immune, etc… That is wonderful! Good for you. But my kid is SICK. Even the mainstream doctors agree and agree with the biomed that I am doing. SO I guess our kids are different, b/c certainly if your kids were sick you wouldn’t neglect them. No.. No one is that big of an asshat!

    By the way, you do realize that Chlorine Dioxide considered safe and approved for use in drinking water?? by the EPA? You are aware too that there has been a clinical study that showed no harm in human test subjects… I mean… certainly you have done your homework right?

  22. #22 meg
    June 12, 2012

    Sorry, she’s saying a 3 year old understood the concept of an enema?
    Doing better than most 3 yr olds I know. . .

  23. #23 elburto
    June 12, 2012

    Duh Meg, the Magical Marvel Slop made the kids brain grow! All praise to Archbishop Humble.

    Ugh, hurt to type that.
    I’m calling shenanigans too. I’m in my thirties, I need enemas occasionally due to nerve damage in my spine, and I’ve been known to cry, and plead “Why?”.

    I’m slightly more advanced than a toddler, but the pain means I become a mental wreck, the loss of dignity doesn’t help much either.

    I can’t imagine a three year old taking it in their stride and being coolly detached.

  24. #24 lilady
    June 12, 2012

    @ Autismum: Your link to the warrior mom is hilarious. (I always take the medical advice of dimwit unemployed and unemployable moms who blog on the internet-NOT)

    “My name is Jenny. I am 36. I have the resume and curriculum vitae of a seriously ADHD individual. I probably have the most undergrad credits of anyone on the planet… dabbling in Speech Pathology, Poly Sci, Anthropology to name a few. There is a year of law school in there some where too. My B.S. is in Communication Sciences & Disorders. I’d love to go to medical school and also study under water basket weaving at some point. I have been a burger flipper, worked at UPS, an X-ray tech, in the Army, photographer… and a thousand other things that I can’t begin to recall.”

    Careful with using those words…Cledwyn will be using them.

    @ Denice Walter…I myself never use those naughty words, although I close friend says I swear like a drunken sailor on shore leave.

  25. #25 Autismum
    just off to bed
    June 12, 2012

    Wow. it’s been a mad but entertaining few hours on Autismum.
    Thanks all. Back to articles extolling the virtues of denture tape over denture glue tomorrow. Oh it’s the writer’s life for me.

  26. #26 ED
    June 12, 2012

    LoL, i almost thought the warrior mom article was fake. Normally when people say things like “SUPER SMART WARRIOR MOMS!” they a) are making a parody video, or b) just plain loony. I’m willing to bet on b.

  27. #27 Shocked
    Portland
    June 12, 2012

    Wrong, that is not the best retort. I prefer, “I know you are, but what am I”? How about “my daddy is bigger than your daddy” and since we’re all being SEVERELY childish and insensitive to a mother trying her best to find a treatment for her boy in a world of ivory tower physicians and egomaniacle scientists, I hope you leave his mother out of this and I’ll leave “this” out of your mother.

  28. #28 Denice Walter
    June 12, 2012

    @ ED:

    Actually, there is a group and blog that call themselves….
    the THINKING MOMS( ‘ Revolution) and they talk about thinking a great deal.

  29. #29 bad poet
    knowledge is power, they're just ignorant
    June 12, 2012

    わがまま クソタレ バケモノ! (Roughly, argumentative, pigheaded monsters.)

  30. #30 Autumn
    June 12, 2012

    If you love you child with autism so much, get off the computer and be with him! It would be better time spent.

  31. #31 Alan Kellogg
    Seated at a computer in an SRO in San Diego
    June 12, 2012

    I remember what bleach did to a pair of pants, don’t think I want to see that happening to somebody’s intestines.

  32. #32 Julie Stahlhut
    June 12, 2012

    I mean, holy shit. A couple of years ago, bleach-drinking was used as a plot point in Metalocalypse to illustrate how effing stupid a group of purely fictional characters can be. Just goes to show that reality can be much stupider than fiction.

    If I caught a neighbor feeding bleach to his or her child, I hope I’d have the guts to call the local child protective services.

  33. #33 Melody
    June 12, 2012

    @Jenny: Maybe your idea of research should include more than just looking things up on the internet. You are absolutely correct! There is a form of that chemical that is used in cleaning municipal water sources. Great job, you can read wikipedia. You might have even read that on your local government site. The information you’re lacking is what happens to the water after they add it and before it gets to your sink. You’re also lacking the concentration amount that goes into the water verses how much is still in the water by the time you drink it, verse the amount that this guy is suggesting these people give their children to ingest. You start looking those percentages up. Then when you have all of those numbers you go to a real live medical journal and look up the toxicity levels for that same chemical and long term exposure for <40lbs; <60; <80. (its a different amount than being given one big dose, although you might want to look that up too, just in case junior gets a hold of his "medicine"). Come back and tell us what you find out. Then you can hold your head up high and say you alone have done your research…You know, like the FDA did.

  34. #34 Melody
    June 12, 2012

    By the way: In case you’re not actually one for research. In case you couldn’t tell, I am.

    Chlorine is added to water but Cl =/= ClO2.
    We’re not all drinking bleach solution. ClO2 will fairly rapidly decompose into chlorine and oxygen.
    Chlorinated water is not bleach solution.
    Chlorine Dioxide is.
    The dose is what makes the poison.
    While the EPA in America did do tests on humans, they involved a solution of 5mg per litre of chlorine dioxide.
    MMS on the other hand, is over 9 times that at 46.9mg per litre. So, there’s your answer. (o:

  35. #35 Glaxxon PharmaCOM Terrabase DIA
    June 12, 2012

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    Minion Mum,

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    Lord Draconis Zeneca VH7iHL
    Foreward Mavoon of the Great Fleet, Monkey Master of Mars, Pusher of Buttons

    Glaxxon PharmaCOM Terrabase DIA
    0000000000001

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  36. #36 Krebiozen
    June 12, 2012

    Jenny,

    By the way, you do realize that Chlorine Dioxide considered safe and approved for use in drinking water?? by the EPA? You are aware too that there has been a clinical study that showed no harm in human test subjects… I mean… certainly you have done your homework right?

    Chlorine dioxide is approved in drinking water at a maximum concentration of 0.8 mg/L by the EPA. Assuming an intake of 3 liters a day, that would mean a maximum daily intake of 2.4 mg of chlorine dioxide. A single drop of MMS contains approximately 10 mg of sodium chlorite which generates about 8 mg chlorine dioxide, or 10 times the daily maximum stipulated by the EPA, and Humble’s recommended 15 drops a day is more than 150 times the EPA maximum. I quote from <a href="http://water.epa.gov/drink/contaminants/basicinformation/disinfectants.cfm"the EPA website:

    Some infants, young children, and fetuses of pregnant women who drink water containing chlorine dioxide in excess of the maximum residual disinfectant level could experience nervous system effects. Some people who drink water containing chlorine dioxide well in excess of the MRDL for many years may experience anemia.

    I think a factor of 150 could be classed as “well in excess of the MRDL”. however you look at it. The dose does indeed make the poison. What were you saying about doing your homework?

  37. #37 Krebiozen
    June 12, 2012

    Oh for preview or edit on this blog…

  38. #38 Chris
    After spending a week of quality time with kid in hospital...
    June 12, 2012

    Autumn, exactly why should we do what you tell us?

  39. #39 Narad
    June 12, 2012

    I am advised that the Welsh were a clean-living and Godly people who had never heard of vice or degeneracy until the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons

    If one may assume that Conchobar has a Welsh equivalent in Cnychwr, that bit about spending the first third of the day “watching the boys at play” and the last third drinking himself unconscious makes this questionable.

  40. #40 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    June 12, 2012

    If you love you child with autism so much, get off the computer and be with him! It would be better time spent.

    My kids are in bed. And your time would be better spent not bleaching your kid’s insides.

    If you loved him that is.

  41. #41 Autumn
    June 12, 2012

    The way you all treat people who think differently than you on here showcases your true character. If you can accept your child with autism so wholeheartedly why can’t you accept others? By the way, you can disagree with MMS but stay respectful. I don’t question that we all love our children. Just seems like some people enjoy creating and fighting battles on-line more than others. My point is to bring it back to what matters: being with our children and behaving like mature adults,

  42. #42 Chris
    Planning the summer...
    June 12, 2012

    … which includes taking the kid to thirty six cardiac rehab sessions being paid for by insurance after heart surgery. Where I get to spend an hour reading a book, just like when he was in intensive speech therapy.

    You know, things that are actually medically indicated.

  43. #43 herr doktor bimler
    June 12, 2012

    you can disagree with MMS but stay respectful.

    I disagree with torturing children but fecked if I will stay respectful of it.

  44. #44 Chris
    Yes, I am responding quicky... give me a break!
    June 12, 2012

    Autumn:

    By the way, you can disagree with MMS but stay respectful.

    How is telling us what we should do with our time respectful? And exactly how do you respect your child’s health by making him/her consume bleach?

    And yeah, most of us hate this happens. So why should we be silent when someone promotes making children consume bleach, and even promotes unnecessary enemas.

    It is not a matter of us respecting your choices, it is a matter of you respecting your child, and not endangering his/her health.

  45. #45 Politicalguineapig
    June 12, 2012

    Shocked: It’s egomanical, fyi. People might take you more seriously if you remembered to spell. Or used spellcheck.
    Julie: Which episode?

  46. #46 Narad
    June 12, 2012

    I don’t question that we all love our children.

    I do, and dosing them with bleach as some sort of parental psychic purgative is a pretty bad sign.

  47. #47 ccs
    June 12, 2012

    “My point is to bring it back to what matters: being with our children and behaving like mature adults”

    And bleach in the @ss has what to do with this?

  48. #48 GRichard
    June 12, 2012

    @ Melody

    A big problem with people doing “research” on the internet is that you can google something, virtually anything, and find some opinion piece or testimonial to support it, maybe even a poorly designed study! Sorting through misinformation becomes nearly impossible when you have already made your conclusions and are simply looking for any evidence to support them. A not insignificant portion of people still believe in geocentrism; that being known, very few crazy viewpoints catch me off guard anymore.

  49. #49 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    June 12, 2012

    I took DW’s advice and swore more and my comment went to purgatory so I’ll try again with some restraint:

    The way you all treat people who think differently than you on here showcases your true character. If you can accept your child with autism so wholeheartedly why can’t you accept others?

    Um what? Think differently? No no no this isn’t about “thinking differently” like you don’t know if ABA is fabulous or the worst thing ever, this is about you conducting horrible, abusive quackery on your little child who looks to you for love and caring, who trusts you unquestioningly and you are bleaching him and who-knows-what else.

    By the way, you can disagree with MMS but stay respectful. I don’t question that we all love our children.

    Um what again? If someone came on here and proudly announced that she is burning her child with lit cigarettes but claims they aren’t really cigarettes are we supposed to be respectful of that? Really? And since you aren’t real fast on the uptake, that was an analogy and fitting for how I perceive what you are doing to your son. And actually, I do question your love for your child.

    Just seems like some people enjoy creating and fighting battles on-line more than others.

    Nah, I can safely say that this is how I would react in person except I’d be notifying the authorities.

    My point is to bring it back to what matters: being with our children and behaving like mature adults,

    You are forcing bleach and again, who-knows-what into your child and you want to be treated like a mature adult? Then grow the eff up and stop bleaching your child.

  50. #50 Narad
    June 13, 2012

    I took DW’s advice and swore more and my comment went to purgatory so I’ll try again with some restraint

    I am sorely tempted to test out this parameter set.

  51. #51 Andreas Johansson
    June 13, 2012

    I don’t know if Autumn loves her kid, but I do know what while love can excuse bad poetry it can’t excuse MMS “treatment”.

  52. #52 Barbs
    South Africa
    June 13, 2012

    Wow! How can feeding a child bleach be justified?? Even here down under in South Africa, we know that bleach in excess is poison! (sarcasm!). And how does bleach restore the neurological pathways of autism, the different operating system? It looks like some people cannot accept the child that God has seen fit to give them if they resort to such measures! But they say they “love” their child! Thank God above my love for my autistic son was not formed in this way!…he is my angel, no matter what problems he presents and I will help him to the best of my ability! and that is not feeding him BLEACH but feeding him good food! You rock Autismum! Go for it!

  53. #53 Ren
    North by Northeast
    June 13, 2012

    What an awesome retort, Autismum. And you didn’t even have to use the word for a pliable plastic container filled with a weak aceitic acid solution intended for feminine hygiene.

  54. #54 Kiz
    June 13, 2012

    @Jenny

    I can see how scared and desparate you are so I’m not saying this to be spiteful…
    This stuff does seem to be bleach and most of the materials safety data I can find lists GI irritation as one of the more serious issues with ingesting bleach.
    I’m sorry you and your son are having a rough time and I hope that you and your son find some treatments that are safe and efficious.

  55. #55 Darwy
    Røde grøde med fløde
    June 13, 2012

    @Autumn

    Why the hell should I be respectful to someone who is dosing their child with bleach? Why should I respect such blatant and egregious abuse of children?

    There is NOTHING to respect about an individual who administers bleach orally and rectally to a helpless, defenseless child who does NOT understand why their parent is HURTING them in such a manner.

    Respect this, my ass.

  56. #56 elburto
    June 13, 2012

    I don’t respect child abusers. I was raised by parents who verbally, physically, and emotionally abused me for being non-NT. I was told I was lazy, wilful, ignorant, disrespectful, wicked, and “wrong in the head”. All because my executive function, attention, and ability to be properly ‘social’ were impaired.

    I couldn’t eat certain foods without extreme GI distress, but in our house everyone had to eat the same thing. If you didn’t eat it you were either force-fed, or that same plate of (now cold) food would be served to you at every meal, until it was gone.

    Oh the stories I could tell, but as bad as they were, they did not commit the (potentially fatal) horrendous act of forcing bleach into my anus. They didn’t make me drink bleach either.

    When you make my parents look like Ma and Pa Walton. then you’re nothing short of monstrous. You have to earn respect, and you haven’t.

  57. #57 Denice Walter
    June 13, 2012

    @ Science Mom:
    I meant in your own posts but of course- you could swear cautiously here if you use words like – f@ck, b#tch, arse, or say: “What they are rhymes with ‘truckers'” or “with ‘bankers'”( oh, the last one passes as is- you can say that ) Or say various insults in Gaelic or some other tongue the system doesn’t get.

  58. #58 Mu
    June 13, 2012

    Reading about the worms come out, is autism now related to Morgellons? Maybe we should start selling Morgellon Miracle Solution…

  59. #59 Autismum
    http://autismum.com/
    June 13, 2012

    @Jenny you ask, in a round about way if I think “warrior moms” are dumb?
    Perhaps I’m being naive but I really hope they are. If they are not misguided and credulous and are, in fact “super smart”, and still do these horrendous things to their kids, that makes them monsters.

  60. #60 Autismum
    http://autismum.com/
    June 13, 2012

    And Autumn, I was away from home yesterday so had the “luxury” of being able to respond to your wonderful testimonial and the other horrific stories of child poisoning right there and then. Besides, the day I take advice or instruction from a woman who feeds her child bleach and isn’t thoroughly ashamed of it will be the day I quit this cruel, cruel world.
    I ask you to present something new and you have failed to do so. Just run off whining on someone else’s blog. You’re not going to get congratulations or sympathy here and if you hadn’t skipped straight to my comments section you’d know that you weren’t going to get either at mine.

  61. #61 lilady
    June 13, 2012

    @ Mu: Of course MMS, the *miracle drug*, has been recommended by a Genesis II minister and used by those *afflicted* with Morgellon’s disease…

    http://www.genesis2forum.org/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=29&id=29&Itemid=66

  62. #62 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    June 13, 2012

    @ Autismum, and mine as well:http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2012/05/ban-miracle-mineral-supplement.html?showComment=1339568521337#comment-c6251509558055899422 in fact Autumn is all over the place spewing her rubbish.

  63. #63 elburto
    June 13, 2012

    Mu -the Morg Mob have been drinking the magic bleach for years. They also bathe in Dettol, take veterinary antibiotics, and do all sorts of ridiculous things.

    I hope, with all my heart, that the Autism! Super! Mommies! Club! don’t emulate them further.

  64. #64 JGC
    June 13, 2012

    Autumn, I keep hearing parents who have embraced MMS (as well as those subjecting their children to other quack treatments) as insisting they’re doing it because they love their children so much that they’ll do whatever it takes to ‘recover’ them. Your argument reduces to the claim that you and others who have embraced MMS for autism love your children so much you’re even willing to poison and toruture them (there are no other words which accurately describe feeding children bleach or forcing them to endure bleach enemas).

    Which brings to mind defense attorney Joseph Amendola’s statement about his client Jerry Sandusky, now on trial for multiple counts of child sexual abuse while an assistant coach at Penn State.

    “Jerry loves kids so much that he does things most of us wouldn’t think of doing.”

    Amendola seems to be suggesting that Sandusky should be given a break because, by golly, he just loved chidlren so much that it’s understandable he’d express that love by forcing them to perform oral sex on him in the gym’s shower room, just as you seem to think parents should be given a pass because it’s reasonable they’d try anything to ‘recover’ their autistic child.

    Am I saying I believe you or anyone else who embraces the whole MMS oral/intravenous/enema protocols as a treatment for ASD are as bad as a serial pedophile? No.

    I believe you’re worse.

    After all, Sandusky never reached the point where he publically defended his abuse, bragged about the great results he’d been having, or demanded the rest of us who condemned his behavior at least address his child sexual assault respectfully while doing so.

    Nor did he prosyletize in support of child sexual abuse, encouraging other coaches in similar circumstances to give it a try as well, as MMS proponents routinely do regarding their aberrant behavior.

  65. #65 Autismum
    http://autismum.com/
    June 13, 2012

    @Science Mom
    Anti fungals
    GAPs diet
    Probiotics
    GFCF
    Vitamins
    and now MMS
    Autumn is way down the rabbit hole. Oh, and how does one reconcile this statement “I now believe and practice natural child parenting,” with giving a child industrial bleach?
    Or this statement, ” I want both my children to blossom to their full potential” with giving a child industrial bleach?
    Or this statement, ” I wouldn’t even care if he had autism the rest of his life – wonderful, awesome. I love him just as he is.” with giving a child industrial bleach.
    I despair.

  66. #66 Prometheus
    In the "household cleansers" aisle
    June 13, 2012

    Jenny (12 June, 6:42 PM):

    “So you are saying that moms who fight for their kids are dumb?”

    No, I believe what’s been said is that moms who feed their kids bleach or stuff it up their bums are misinformed and desperate. There is a significant difference between being “dumb” and being ignorant or misinformed. To the outside observer, however, it can be difficult to tell the difference, but I prefer to assume ignorance or misinformation until I see clear evidence of intellectual insufficiency.

    “I will never understand how you let ignorance and fear prevent you from treating the medical illnesses that your kids have.”

    Rarely have I encountered a sentence so rich in irony. I, for one, have a thorough understanding of the chemistry of sodium chlorite and it’s effect on cells and tissues and I do not fear sodium chlorite, although I do have a healthy respect for its power as an oxidant. It seems to me that the person showing fear and ignorance is “Jenny”, not the commenters who express outrage and disbelief that parents are giving their children bleach in the mistaken hope that it will magically “cure” autism.

    “But my kid is SICK.”

    And giving your child oral or rectal bleaching agents is supposed to help them get healthy? Think it through – if a disinfectant is strong enough to kill bacteria, fungi or parasites, it is definitely strong enough to kill the lining of the gut. You’ll note that most disinfectants have a warning on their label: “Not to be taken internally”.

    “Even the mainstream doctors agree and agree with the biomed that I am doing.”

    Do they agree or have they decided that there’s no point in arguing with you? There is a difference. If someone tells me that a racoon is a cat, I’ll try to set them straight, but if someone tells me that a parking meter is a tree, I usually won’t disagree. That’s not because I agree that parking meters are trees, it’s because I don’t think the problem is one that can be solved by education.

    “By the way, you do realize that Chlorine Dioxide considered safe and approved for use in drinking water?? by the EPA? You are aware too that there has been a clinical study that showed no harm in human test subjects… I mean… certainly you have done your homework right?”

    “Jenny” probably also knows that sodium fluouride has been shown to be a safe additive to drinking water, but that doesn’t change the fact that ingesting enough fluoride can kill you. For that matter, drinking enough water can be fatal – and has been on many occasions.

    Likewise, a 40% solution of ethanol in water (with traces of other chemicals) is a delightful beverage (especially if it comes from certain parts of Scotland), but higher concentrations of ethanol (or excess intake of the aforementioned solution) can cause tissue damage and even death.

    I see three major problems with MMS as a “treatment” for autism (or anything): one is that sodium chlorite – in the doses recommended by Mr. Humble – can be harmful. The second problem is that there are no indications that autism is caused by “worms”, pathogenic bacteria or fungi. And the third problem is that oral or rectal sodium chlorite won’t eradicate “worms”, pathogenic bacteria or fungi because it can’t reach all of them, even by enema.

    I can’t shake the feeling that Mr. Humble is spoofing all of the parents who are “believers” in his “Miracle Mineral Solution”. Everything about the product – the name, the name of the promoter (Mr. Humble) and the extravagant and ridiculous claims made – seems to be right out of a parody of “alternative” medicine. Please, somebody, tell me that it’s all a joke, that there aren’t parents putting bleach in their kids’ rectums.

    Prometheus

  67. #67 Calli Arcale
    June 13, 2012

    Autumn,

    I think it’s pretty clear you do love your son. You revel in his successes, and you are proud of him. You hurt when he hurts, and you want very much to make it better and to give him whatever he needs to be successful.

    The problem is, you are doing it the wrong way. It will probably be very difficult for you to accept that; you may never accept it, although for your son’s sake, I hope you do accept it, and sooner rather than later. MMS is hurting your son. That he has not become seriously ill yet is fortunate, but you shouldn’t count on his luck holding up forever. There are people who have taken MMS and gotten so sick they have wound up in the hospital. Now, would the risk of that be worthwhile if it removed all of the frustrations and obstacles in your son’s life? That’s a question only you can answer. But I hope you will at least consider this: is that risk worthwhile when there is no evidence that it will help your son at all? Is that risk worthwhile in pursuit of hope?

    I have a child on the autism spectrum. She had an immensely frustrating day yesterday; she has transitioned from the school program, where everybody understands her, to a new summer program where she’s going to have to get to know the instructors and vice versa. The instructors are fabulous, and understand learning disorders, but nothing can eliminate the need to get to know one another and become comfortable together. I would love to be able to take that frustration away from her, to help her regulate her emotions properly (right now, they cause her enormous pain), to be sufficiently “present” to be able to seize opportunities when they come along, rather than forever finding out she’s just a few minutes too late for whatever it is. (Yesterday, it was finding out that she was too late to get tested for swimming to see which part of the pool she would be safe in. They’ll try to test her again tomorrow, assuming the sense of humiliation and anger over yesterday doesn’t prevent her from cooperating. She lacks a sense of proportion right now, and it’s a real obstacle for her.)

    If I could fix that for her, would I? Absolutely. And I might accept a small risk to her health to do it. But not much of one, and I’d have to have a damn good assurance there was a strong chance of it helping. I would not do it for the hope of being better. I’d only do it for the promise. Her health is too important to risk for just hope.

    Do research, Autumn. You care deeply about your children; you owe it to them to make decisions for them very carefully. Some people will promise you anything if they think they can get some money or attention out of you; you have to make sure it’s not just one of those before you leap at an intervention. Learn what MMS is; it’s a fairly well-understood chemical, so you should be able to find plenty of independent information. Learn what the hazards are; it’s got industrial applications, and that means that there has been research to establish standards for occupational exposure; you can look at that for some guidelines. Check poison control websites for information; absolutely anything can be a poison, after all, so what is the level at which this becomes a poison? Learn about the pathogens MMS is supposed to kill; find out whether or not it can get to them to kill them, and whether the lethal concentrations will be hazardous to humans. I was a chemistry major for a time, before I turned to computers; this stuff doesn’t look like something I’d want to ingest in significant quantities.

  68. #68 Calli Arcale
    June 13, 2012

    By the way, it isn’t thinking differently that bothers us. It’s doing dangerous things to children and getting upset when people point it out. I know it’s hard to be corrected, but for the sake of your children, swallow your pride and look this stuff up. Please do go and see what it really does to human tissues at those concentrations.

  69. #69 Bronze Dog
    June 13, 2012

    There’s one thing that really gets me about using bleach to kill these alleged pathogens: It’s like using a shotgun instead of a scalpel. I’d rather not use Mondo Medicals‘ way of curing cancer.

    An important and often tricky part of killing pathogens is figuring out how to do it without significant harm to the patient. Killing a petri dish culture is easy. Our world is filled with lots of nasty chemicals that can do it. A lot of these chemicals work because they tend to be nasty towards living things in general. The pathogens we deal with in the real world are not some sci-fi silicon-based horror from Andromeda. They’re from Earth. They’re made of the same general building blocks we are.

    Of course, when testing a treatment that can harm the patient, there’s a stark difference I tend to see: Real medical researchers have to be careful about doses, have their test procedures looked over by ethical review boards, work under transparent conditions, and so on. Quacks, however, are often quite happy to have paying customers play Frankenstein on their children, largely unmonitored.

  70. #70 Th1Th2
    June 13, 2012

    Killing a petri dish culture is easy

    Your body is a giant petri dish. No wonder medical iatrogenesis easily tops the list among the leading cause of death.

  71. #71 ChrisP
    June 14, 2012

    What idiot would liken a human body to a petri dish?

  72. #72 Julian Frost
    NOYDB
    June 14, 2012

    @Th1Th2:

    No wonder medical iatrogenesis easily tops the list among the leading cause of death.

    Citation needed.

  73. #73 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    Finland
    June 14, 2012

    For Autismum, who tells that swearing in Welsh sounds great (which is not inaccurate at all – it SOOO does!) … so does swearing in Finnish …. so, my little suomenkielinen rant (for her – and everyone else’s amusements) goes thus:

    Vittujumalautasaatanavittupaska, kun noi MMS äidit ovat ihan vitun idiootteja ton Humblen ja Riveran perseitä nuolemassa kaikki!

    Enjoy!

  74. #74 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    Finland
    June 14, 2012

    @ChrisP: “What idiot would liken a human body to a petri dish?”

    Twat1Twat2 would ….

  75. #75 herr doktor bimler
    June 14, 2012

    Evidently David N. Andrews does not need to buy a vowel.

  76. #76 Shay
    June 14, 2012

    The best cussing language is German. All those gutterals.

  77. #77 Denice Walter
    June 14, 2012

    @ Shay:

    Actually, I do REALLY like English for swearing most: because of its spectacularly diverse history of invasions and conquests, it has a multitude of loan words from all-over yet can still remain true to its humble roots. So we do have the gutteral crap as well as the smoothly flowing contributions from the Romance languages- thus one might highlight the extremes through contrast. And then we anglicise loan words creatively as well.

  78. #78 Anj
    June 14, 2012

    Just wanted to put in my totally anecdotal two cents in about ASD kids.

    I drill my non-ASD son on things when we go out – where we are going, what roads we use, which directions we turn, our various destinations and goals and so on. I do this knowing that my ASD son is lurking all the time.

    Yesterday, after having a brief discussion about a new place we were going to try for dinner, the ASD son repeated perfectly, in context what I said. Never ever forget that even though your child may not respond to what you say or do – they may comprehend it perfectly.

  79. #79 Prometheus
    June 14, 2012

    Th1Th2 13 June 9:47 PM:

    “Your body is a giant petri dish.”

    You’d think that someone whose ‘nym derives from immunology would have at least a faint understanding of why the human body isn’t “a giant petri dish”. (hint: it has to do with having an immune system)

    One of the many reasons to not force your child to drink bleach (or give it to them rectally) is that it has a more potent effect on immune system cells than it does on most pathogens.

    Prometheus

  80. #80 Old Rockin' Dave
    June 15, 2012

    “Your body is a giant petri dish.”
    This is a statement that can only be true if you were smeared with bacteria, enclosed under a glass lid and stuffed into a heated chamber for 48 hours, then taken out and Gram-stained. I don’t think so.
    Of course, that may be your idea of fun.

  81. #81 Shay
    June 15, 2012

    That is quite true, Denice, and I’ve heard some masters. On the other hand, swearing in German doesn’t get me in trouble with HR.

  82. #82 Darwy
    Røde grøde med fløde
    June 15, 2012

    @David

    Swearing in Danish just doesn’t have the same impact as either German or Finnish. It just sounds like you’re choking on the potato in your mouth.

  83. #83 herr doktor bimler
    June 15, 2012

    My paternal grandmother invested a lot of time in coaching me in the extreme end of German invective, so that if I ever met a member of the SS or the Hitler Youth I would be able to address him in terms that left no doubt as to my feelings.
    I have forgotten most of the words now, but my chances of a Papal audience are probably screwed.

  84. #84 Chris
    Going to bed...
    June 15, 2012

    herr dokter bimler:

    My paternal grandmother invested a lot of time in coaching me in the extreme end of German invective, so that if I ever met a member of the SS or the Hitler Youth I would be able to address him in terms that left no doubt as to my feelings.

    And all I got from the German wives who were married to American soldiers and watched my sister and me while my mother worked in Ft. Ord, CA were tastes of very delicious cakes. Plus a cute gray kitten that we named “Hannah” after one of those babysitters.

    One of the moms in the neighborhood was from France, and a few were from Japan. One of the lessons learned as an Army brat living where they now do Mythbuster shows is that mothers come form all over the world. And often they make very tasty foods.

  85. […] case, as has been explained before several times, in the comments of various posts (for instance, this one and this one—damn my inability to link directly to comments in the new blog!), given that […]

  86. #86 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    July 15, 2012

    Darwy: “@David

    Swearing in Danish just doesn’t have the same impact as either German or Finnish. It just sounds like you’re choking on the potato in your mouth.”

    Sadly, I have to agree. I’ve heard Skåne people swearing in Skånesvenska and it’s very similar to Danish (wtf? Skåne used to be Danish!) … Swearing in Finlandssvenska is pretty good,though – basically, Swedish spoken with a rather heavy Finnish accent…

  87. #87 One « Autismum
    August 20, 2012

    […] A certain plexiglass box of blinking lights sent my hits into the stratosphere with his post  The Best Retort Ever? Thank you, […]

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