Naturopathy is at least 99% woo. That has to be said at the outset. Naturopaths might brag about all the science they take in naturopathy school, claiming that it’s as much as MDs take. Even if that were true, the question is not how many hours of basic science naturopaths take, but rather what’s taught in those hours and, more importantly, what’s taught in the clinical hours. For instance, given that you can’t have naturopathy without homeopathy, it implies that what’s taught in basic science classes in naturopathy school allows room for the incredible magical quackery that is homeopathy to be not just plausible but a standard of naturopathic care. As long as that is true, naturopaths are deluding themselves (and deceiving the public) when they claim that naturopathy is based on science. Indeed, the only complaint I’ve ever heard from naturopaths about homeopathy is that it’s either too complicated or that naturopathy schools teach it wrong, not that homeopathy is superstitious thinking based on ancient principals of sympathetic magic.

Of course, it’s not just homeopathy that makes naturopathy by and large a hodge-podge of beliefs and treatments that range from the mundane science-based, such as recommending the same things that “conventional doctors” recommend, such as losing weight and exercising, to the questionable, such as as recommending all manner of supplements, to hokum like traditional Chinese medicine, acupuncture, and various forms of “energy healing,” to pure quackery, like homeopathy. When taken as a whole, naturopathy is a system of medicine that fetishizes anything it views as “natural” and as a result is heavily weighted towards pseudoscience and quackery.

All of this is why one of the more disturbing developments in quackery lately is the move for naturopaths to market themselves as primary care practitioners. It is a role for whyc they are woefully untrained., their delusions otherwise notwithstanding. Unfortunately, they are having some success legislatively, not only gaining licensure in a number of states but gaining prescribing privileges and the right to do primary care in some. They do through a combination of savvy marketing, appeals to “health freedom,” and, of course, the co-opting of science.

Once again, when it comes to trying to convince people that naturopathy is good medicine and that, contrary to reality, “integrative medicine” doesn’t represent “integrating” quackery with real medicine, that wretched hive of scum and quackery, The Huffington Post, excels. So does our old friend John Weeks, propagandist for pseudoscientific medicine of all stripes and, above all, “integrating” quackery into science-based medicine. This time around, he’s done it in an article, How Naturopathic Doctors Are Proving the Value of Integrative Medicine. In it, Weeks tries to argue that not only isn’t naturopathy science-based, but that integrating naturopathy with science-based medicine improves outcomes.

I’m not impressed.

I’ll show you what I mean. Weeks starts by seemingly magnanimously thanking conventional medicine for providing the scientific basis for the Textbook of Natural Medicine the consumer-focused counterpart the Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine , because many of the studies they referenced were “gleaned from conventional medical literature.” No doubt. Of course, it’s how such bodies of studies are interpreted where naturopaths fail, inevitably ascribing near magical powers any positive evidence they could cherry pick in support of their favored woo. However, I suppose that, in a way, it is rather chivalrous of Weeks to give credit where credit is due in doing the research they could not and that they could use for their own propagandistic purposes.

Unfortunately, it’s only a prelude to patting oneself on the back for “paying conventional medicine back”:

Now it looks like present day naturopathic researchers may be paying back this debt — at least as far as their medical doctor colleagues in integrative medicine are concerned.

A recently-published study of naturopathic treatment for diabetes and a review of 13 outcomes studies of “whole practice” naturopathic treatment each support the value in the multiple modality, individualized approach that is also favored by integrative M.D.s.

The study Weeks is touting is this one, Adjunctive naturopathic care for type 2 diabetes: patient-reported and clinical outcomes after one year. I am underwhelmed. First, it’s a small study, only 40 patients with type 2 diabetes, a hemoglobin A1c level between 7.5% adn 9.5%, and at least one other cardiovascular risk factor, such as hyptertension. Second, and more importantly, it’s for all intents and purposes uncontrolled. Yes, there is a control group, but it’s a more or less useless control group. Basically, it’s a control group (the “usual care cohort”) constructed from the medical records of patients who, we are told, were potentially eligible to join the “adjunctive naturopathic care” (ANC) cohort but were not invited. Although the study was prospective, there was no randomization, and the groups were not treated as close to identically as possible. Basically, this was an observational cohort study in which one cohort was never seen by the investigators. Thus, the ANC group got a letter, came to see the naturopath several times, and knew they were taking part in a study.

Also, contrary to what was claimed in the abstract, the ANC and usual care cohorts had a number of notable differences. The ANC cohort was younger, had a higher A1c (and thus more room for improvement), and lower blood pressure. Interestingly, more of the ANC group used metformin (80% versus 20%), which suggested that they had more severe diabetes and, therefore, more room for improvement:

Use of oral medications and insulin increased in the ANC cohort during the 12-month observation period, with three patients starting on sulfonylureas, three patients starting on metformin and six patients starting on basal insulin. The total number of prescription refills also increased in the ANC cohort on average during the observation period from 4.7 ± 2.2 per year during the year prior to baseline compared to 5.9 ± 2.7 per year during the ANC observation period, whereas refills did not change in the usual care cohort (i.e., 4.2 ± 3.0 refills/year during the prior year compared to 4.0 ± 3.2 refills during the ANC observation period).

Did these patients get worse and require more medication or was their compliance improved? Who knows? If it was improved compliance, did it have anything to do with naturopathy? Given that the control group wasn’t treated the same way or observed in any way other than by reviewing medical records, improvements observed in the ANC group could well be due to the study effect, also sometimes called the Hawthorne effect. This is a well-known confounder of clinical trials in which subjects improve or modify an aspect of their behavior that’s being experimentally measured simply because they know they are being studied, not because the experimental manipulation worked. In fact, if I were intentionally trying to maximize the Hawthorne effect, I would be hard-pressed to come up with a better study design than this one. Consistent with this, although there were a lot of statistically significant improvements in hard clinical parameters (such as HbA1c) at six months, by twelve months the observed improvements were no longer significant while the subjective measures remained improved.

In other words, this study shows little. Interestingly, there were also adverse events reported in the ANC group, nearly all due to adverse reactions to supplements.

Next up on the quackademic medicine hit parade directed by weeks is a poster presentation. I kid you not. He’s referencing a poster presentation:

The poster presentation was entitled “Systematic Review of Outcomes Studies of Outcomes Studies of Whole Practice Naturopathic Medicine.” The poster team, led by Erica Oberg, N.D., MPH and Carlo Calabrese, N.D., MPH, acknowledged that “formal whole practice studies in naturopathic medicine are a recent phenomenon.”*

All of the naturopathic studies were on chronic conditions. “Some degree of clinical benefit” was found in each, “sometimes quite strong.” Eight of the 13 used quality of life measures with all showing improvements. While noting many “methodological weaknesses,” the team concluded that the review “provides evidence of effectiveness and cost savings in chronic diseases in the observed or validly-modeled practice of trained and licensed naturopathic doctors.”

Here’s a description of the study. You know what they say about meta-analyses: Garbage in, garbage out. Oddly enough Weeks didn’t link to the actual poster; so I will. It’s right here. It’s even more underwhelming than the first study. It pools twelve studies of widely varying conditions. Given how many different conditions were examined (tendonitis, temporomandibular joint problems, low back pain, hypertension, multiple sclerosis, and menopausal symptoms, among others) I find it hard to believe how one could legitimately pool the results in any meaningful way, much less to conclude that naturopathic interventions are beneficial and cost-effective. This is particularly true given that only six of the studies were actually randomized clinical trials; the rest were observational or retrospective.

None of this stops Weeks from exulting:

Such research is of most value to real world decision makers. The aim is not to show that X therapy caused Y response under controlled conditions. Rather, these help stakeholders — whether employers, individuals, hospitals, or accountable care organization leaders — understand what may happen if a given population of patients is cared for by a set of integrative practitioners. These specifically help answer whether naturopathic doctors will be helpful if included in care teams or benefit plans.

Evidence like this will answer no such question. It’s too low quality to answer much of any question. But this is the sort of evidence what Weeks and the naturopaths whose “integration” with science-based medicine he promotes use to make their case, which makes his claim that soon doctors will be soon borrowing the results of research carried out by naturopaths for anything.

Naturopaths and their apologists trumpet that naturopathic care should be “integrated” into conventional medicine because their nostrums add something unique and valuable. In reality, anything science-based that they add is nothing that physicians don’t know already anyway (eat a good diet, get enough sleep, and exercise). What they add that is unique is something that shouldn’t be “integrated” with conventional medicine: magical thinking, pseudoscience, and quackery. To paraphrase Mark Crislip, “integrating” feces with ice cream doesn’t make the ice cream better; it just contaminates it with feces.

Comments

  1. #1 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 16, 2012

    Why do all of those people I irritate so much come on this blog. Why don’t they just bugger off and NOT be irritated. Do they WANT to be irritated. This is a bit like the old biddy who rings the house detective to complain that a man in the building opposite is exposing himself. The detective arrives and says “I can’t see anyone exposing himself”, noticing that the window is pretty high up.’ “Stand on the bed, stand on the bed” she yells at him.

    David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    I must say your language is somewhat intemperate, coarse and vulgar, proletarian even for a man of letters. It does you no credit whatsoever my good man, if you don’t mind me saying or even if you DO mind me saying. I sincerely hope your peers aren’t watching otherwise your reputation and status could be seriously compromised

  2. #2 Politicalguineapig
    July 16, 2012

    Paul Hill: Nope. It does start a little earlier than I thought, but not anywhere around the premenstrual years. Excuse the error; I was working off the first result I found, which seems to be inaccurate and out of date.
    From Schizophrenia.com:

    Schizophrenia is a disease that typically begins in early adulthood; between the ages of 15 and 25. Men tend to develop schizophrenia slightly earlier than women; whereas most males become ill between 16 and 25 years old, most females develop symptoms several years later, and the incidence in women is noticably higher in women after age 30. The average age of onset is 18 in men and 25 in women. Schizophrenia onset is quite rare for people under 10 years of age, or over 40 years of age.

    Still, 25 is hardly premenstrual; unless you happen to believe women don’t enter puberty till their twenties. And again, your attempted defense of Laing only adds to the impression that he was rather voyueristic and domineering. Not to mention, a mother-blaming asshole like most psychiatrists of his time.
    And ya know, I knew a fair number of kids who came from split households. (Sounds better and more accurate then ‘broken homes.’) None of them are schizophrenic, and again, there’d be a heck of a lot more schizophrenics if divorce happened to be the villain.

    As to why we respond to you, well, that’s really rather simple, Mr. Hill. You’re a bit of entertainment.

  3. #3 Krebiozen
    July 16, 2012

    My models come straight out of the text books of a range of disciplines including each of the organs of the body, and the structures of the surrounding Universe. All of the bits of the jigsaw have to fit into ONE COHESIVE WHOLE PERFECTLY. Something doesn’t fit, change the paradigm until it does. The ultimate test is how it fits together without forcing something to fit. A cybernetic Universe, cybernetic animal. Yin and Yang. A scientific paper contradicts the model, it more than likely wrong.

    There we have it in a nutshell. If any evidence disagrees with Paul Hill’s grandiose hypotheses, it is “more than likely wrong”. If that’s not narcissistic megolomania I don’t know what is. It’s pointless trying to have a rational discussion with someone like that. I give up.

  4. #4 Narad
    July 16, 2012

    Take a gander at the three comment prior to mine, all by David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E. showing his mug shot

    I block Gravatar, Paul, so I see no such thing, and really, I don’t know what you’re on about in this regard.

  5. #5 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 16, 2012

    Politicalguineapig,
    Okay, I realize that just being a man makes half of the population arseholes to a lot of women. After all look at the child molestation, domestic violence, murder, rape, assault and so on, it’s bloody appalling. A man can go for a walk in the forest and not even think about coming to harm, and not be the least bit concerned. A woman does likewise and has to consider being violently raped and even eaten. But I’m not going to apologize on their behalf, feel some sort of collective guilt because I am NOT one of them. I spend a lot of my time trying to get through to men women’s concerns.

    A lot of men hate Germain Greer. I think she is great. Her book ‘The Female Eunuch’ poleaxed me, belted me right between the eyes, made me realize just what a chauvinistic bastard I was.. Her pithy language, like a woman being a man’s ‘vaginal spittoon’. She says ‘I’m sitting on the couch with this turd and I’m thinking, Christ I’m gonna be a complete rag by morning if I’ve gotta wrestle with this turd all night. What am I supposed to do, lay on the ground, pull up my dress, point to it, say “Right, use it then piss off”. When is a man gonna realize that NO means NO. Nothing else would have gotten through to me. I was too inhibited to ask a woman out for a couple of years after reading the book, terrified of being ridiculed and going into a shell that I could never get out of. A lot of people, women included, are offended by that language. ‘Foul mouthed bitch’ say some men using far coarser language than her, double standard run amok. For me a relationship with a woman has to a PRECISE one on one relationship, otherwise there is no basis for real friendship, trust and affection.

    Thus I reckon that the attack on Laing by feminists is reading what they want to read just because he is a bloke. I know of schizophrenic girls who HAVE been mollycoddled to the point where they almost can’t function socially, but this has been because the mother has tried to protect the child against violent/sexual abuse by the father AND keep her away from any INFLUENCE by him. She does so many thinks for the child so that he doesnt influence the child even with his male oriented ideas ideas. She is trying to compensate for not having protected the child, but OVER compensating. But, what could she have done. Go talk to a male cop and complain with the possibility of being bashed, to death maybe, by her husband, for dobbing him in. How much sympathy is the male cop gonna give her if he is belting HIS wife around/sexually abusing his kid/s.

    Laing could only go so far in talking about the abuse by the father. He could bring up the subject of the woman mollycoddling without getting a broken bottle rammed into his face or a bomb thrown through his window. But start accusing daddies of being rockspiders and he’d be like Salmaan Rushdie, too frightened to leave the house. I think he thought that if he just muted the male side of the equation the message would still get through, but it DIDN’T, to the relief of a lot of blokes. I start talking about sexual abuse associated with schizophrenia among blokes or in mixed company and there is stunned silence or a desperate attempt to change the subject as quickly as possible. It is the greatest taboo subject on Earth. Even if men have never touched a child they just DON’T want to talk about it, won’t pick a little kid and fondle it, concerned at what people might think, can’t show any affection whatsoever, terrified of what someone might make of it.

    But then there are so many revelations of men in positions of care, eg kids with cancer, where people remark about what a saint he is, how affectionate he is toward the kids. Then it comes out that he’s been sexually abusing them, sometimes exploiting their inability to get away from him because of a disability. This just feeds woman’s suspicions of ALL men.

    But I’m still not taking sides here as I believe that abuse derives from inequality, all social ills, not just abuse. Alienation between the sexes caused by inequality in the OVERALL distribution of wealth. I’ve written a little paper on that but I can’t find it at the moment.

    Now as to the incidence of schizophrenia in families of extreme conflict, there are so many factors involved, more likely when there is NOT a divorce as I stated, but where the parents stick it out for the sake of the child, intending to split when the child gets well. But that might never happen because usually the child just gets progressively worse. They might agree to have affairs, or have them in secret.

    Thanks for the little pat on the head. I really appreciate it.

  6. #6 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 16, 2012

    Krebiozen,
    What’s wrong with megalomania and narcissism. I am EXTREMELY proud of my megalomania. I have no time for false humility and self effacement. It is a waste of my time. Everybody should be a megalomaniac ’cause then there would be no more megalomaniacs, well…relatively speaking. Adolph Hitler could never have gotten out of control if all Germans had been megalomaniacs. They either licked his anal sphincter or put shit on him in which case he had them shot. If everyone in the world were megalomaniacs, no more wars no more nothin’.

    What I’m getting at is WHOLISM. There can be only one model in which everything fits perfectly. If a paper throws a spanner in the FIT then accept it and change the model. If not reject the paper but don’t delete it just in case.

  7. #7 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 17, 2012

    Narad,
    The point I was making that up until the point that David Andrews arrives on this blog nobody had identified them selves to the point where they could be checked online and no mugshots at all. Along comes this bloke fully identifying himself with all these bloody letters after his name saying in sense ‘I am qualified to do a hatchet job on your credibility.’ Right let’s have a look at him.

    David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    I am an applied educational psychologist living/working in Finland, where I have a daughter. In 2006, I achieved a Master of Education degree – with Distinction – in Inclusion, Special Education & Educational Psychology, specialising in educational/developmental difficulties faced by autistic adults from a psychological perspective (following closely the BPS DipEdPsychol syllabus). I then gained a Certificate of Professional Studies in Education, specialising in educational/organisational ethno-psychology/psycho-anthropology. In addition to assessments and counselling, I also design and teach courses related to my professional interests. When not busy being a freelance psycho-educational consultant, consultant educational psychologist for the Finnish Autistic Empowerment Committee, Chairperson of APANA, I taught ESL at a local adult education college. I am also a solo performer (guitars/vocal), doing occasional folkie gigs. Because of new law in force in the UK, this is me: David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E., Psychologist (Teaching, Learning & Development) (UK), Educational Psychologist (Fin), Psycho-

    Educational Consultant (UK/Fin)
    Interests Professional: the applied psychology of education, autistic difficulties in adult life, specific educational needs in relation to adult education, the teaching of mathematical sciences. Personal: music, reading, sauna, spending time with my beautiful autistic daughter.

    David’s Comments. up above.
    the Narcissist: “I might as well bash me head into a bloody tree.”
    So, why don’t you? You’d make life a lot more pleasant for the rest of the world.the Narcissistic arsehole: “I hope nobody is offended by my ‘ravings’.”
    Good. We’re not. What we are is fucking bored with them. Not that you give a shit, because your head’s too far up inside your arsehole to give a shit. Sadly. For you, that is; because people with their heads rammed that far up their arses look stupid.

    Does that discredit me in any way? This man is a psychologist with all these qualifications. Hardly the appropriate language for such a person. Does he attack my medical hypothesis? NO. ALL he is doing is make himself look like an uneducated lout. ALL he is doing is discrediting himself and giving me perfect ammunition to lampoon him. What if I was to spread these comments around? He’d look precisely like what he is calling me. Wouldn’t do his reputation any good at all. But I wouldn’t be so mean.

  8. #8 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 17, 2012

    Narad,
    It has only just occurred to me that this bloke is actually throwing a massive temper tantrum because inadvertently, WITHOUT REALIZING IT, without ANY malice aforethought I’ve been doing a hatchet job on him. So why not a few posters check him out and see what turns up. He could be a danger to himself and others with a temper like that.

  9. #9 paul hill
    July 17, 2012

    One would think that, of all people, a psychologist is someone who has learned great communication skills, to have rapport with people suffering various psychopathologiews, even EXTREME psychopathologies such as myself with my very virulent form of schizophrenia called MENS (Messianic Egomaniacal Narcissistic Syndrome). He would need exquisite sensitivity in not being antagonistic recognizing that a person of my extreme narcissism would be very easily provoked. Being a person of great compassion, as he must be, he would have take this into account, prepared even to take a barrage of insults, understanding that, given my paranoia I would be extremely suspicious of his motivation. I would not accept for one second his claim that he has my welfare at heart as I have heard that many times only to have been betrayed many times. He would recognize that a Messianic complex can be fueled by either criticism (they are just jealous) or adulation (I must be fantastic). This would be a sample of his sensitivity.

    “Chris: “Which is why I am now just ignoring Mr. Hill. He is not worth it.”
    David. “That doesn’t help with narcissists… they end up going around provoking responses just to get their supply of attention”.

    Pretty good so far, almost worthy of a Nobel. Now it get even better still.

    “Krebiozen: “I’m not pleading with you to vamoose. I’m pleading with you to go back to basics and check some of your facts before posting any more vast tracts of nonsense.”
    David.
    That’ll do no good. Paul HIll is one of those people you cannot expect to get to think: head too far up own arsehole to be bothered with knowing that other people could be (and in his case, are) correct in their knowledge where he isn’t.
    Arrogant shit-wit: “Why on earth would I want to start my own blog when I’m having so much fun drawing the fire of meat heads who know bugger all of anything.”
    Project much, arsehole?”

    Exquisite isn’t it. The compliment arsehole is bandied about extensively, including head up arsehole. Now I must take umbridge with this compliment because, by Davids definition, I have a monstorous ego. I must therefore have a huge head and, as I have an extremely tight anal sphincter, plus being morbidly obese, it would be quite some feat to insert my head into my rectum. To what end. Nobody would be able to hear my narcissistic rants. David could you provide me therapy as I reckon you should be nominated as Time Magazine’s Psychologist of the year.

  10. #10 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 17, 2012

    Krebiozen,
    Okay. Lets go back to the beginning where you claim that an average sized potato would produce a bigger blood glucose spike than a cuppa coffee with 6 heaped teaspoons of sugar in it. I don’t believe it but I would accept watertight evidence to the contrary. One reason I don’t agree with it is because when I did the second BG on myself I used a decent sized piece of toast with avocado on it and got a much smaller spike than 2 oz of glucose. Now obviously 2 oz is a lot more than 6 heaped teaspoons, and as glucose is a monosaccharide whereas sucrose is a disaccharide I’d expect a much bigger peak with the glucose. However you made the statement that the spud would produce a bigger peak than the coffee with 6 heaped teaspoons.
    Therefore would you be prepared to do two 5 hr GTT’s on yourself or a test subject, one with the cuppa and one with the spud. You would have to test every 15 minutes for the first 2 hours to satisfy me that you’d caught the spike. There is no way I could do these tests on myself as I’m snowed under just staying alive and don’t have a monitor. I assume that you are in a lab.

    This is your post back then.
    First Me.
    ‘Now in the interests of scientific objectivity I must assume that you have conducted PROPERLY DONE 5 hr GTT’s using a spud vs a cuppa coffee with x amounts of refined sucrose in it and are thus able to qualify your assertions with proof.

    You.
    I haven’t personally, but many people have and there is no question in my mind that the information above about the relative glycemic indices of potatoes and sucrose is accurate. I have measured the breakdown of potato starch to glucose over time by adding amylase in an alkaline environment and then measuring reducing sugar concentration with Benedict’s solution and compared it to the breakdown of sucrose to glucose and fructose by sucrase.

    Me..
    Can a lab experiment possibly duplicate what is taking place in the gastrointestinal tract. For a start there is the first stage of protein digestion, pepsin, in the stomach, followed by 3 stages in the duodenum, each at a different pH, trypsin, chymotrypsin, carboxypepsidase. Large peptides entering the duodenum from the stomach with progressively smaller ones in the duodenum then individual amino acids, all exerting at least some osmotic pressure.

    Fibre: pectin, cellulose, hemicellulose, lignin. Which are soluble?

    From the starch we end up with the disaccharide maltose, glucose:glucose. Now we come to the GIP axis. Maltase will not be released into the duodenum from the exocrine pancreas until x amounts of insulin has been synthesised, the amount depending on how much maltose is detected in the duodenum. Glucose molecules actively transported into microvilli cells lining duodenum, then into the bloodstream, (portal vein?). However the glucose molecules have to make PHYSICAL contact with these transport pumps, held away in the duodenum by the osmotic pressure of soluble fibre and peptide fragment as well as amino acids.

    To cuppa coffee with six heaped teaspoons of sucrose. All enzymes do is dramatically speed up chemical reactions that would take place anyway, even in cold water, over time. In boiling water, assuming that the hydrolysis of sucrose is an endothermic reaction, I’d expect it to be hydrolyzed to glucose: fructose fairly quickly. So two MONOSACCHARIDES enter the duodenum. Therefore GIP AXIS TOTALLY BYPASSED. And nothing or very little in the coffee to pull against absorption, so, much FASTER BABSORPTION than with the starch Glucose actively absorbed, fructose by passive diffusion, enters portal vein to liver. But isn’t fructose converted in the liver to glucose. Don’t remember a side entry, ie fructose-6-phosphatase, then UP to glucose (gluconeogenesis only.) Conflicting evidence.

    You.
    That was one of the practical examinations in my early biomedical sciences education. I have also carried out several studies monitoring people’s blood glucose at very short time intervals (as little as 10 minutes) over long periods of time, and have never seen any evidence of the post-prandial spikes in blood glucose you describe, except in diabetics. That’s why blood is taken at the intervals it is in GTTs, because we know from practical experiments that it is not necessary to take blood more frequently. MMMM.

    Me.
    Won’t satisfy me as it does NOT accord with my 5 hr GTT’s, testing every 15 minutes. BIG spikes. This might be where the major problem lies because major clinics that do 5 hr GTT’s only do one every hour. Why? Save money?

  11. #11 Agashem
    Past Athens on the 401 Eastbound
    July 17, 2012

    Paul, you may try some aswagandha supplements as this can help with the self-mastubatory behaviour you are exhibiting.
    (I personally doubt there are any herbs strong enought to counteract that massive an ego but hey, you never know)

  12. #12 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 17, 2012

    Thank you very much for the compliments. I welcome them but don’t really need them because my skull is beginning to crack open with my expanding brain. As to the self-masturbation I’m getting a bit long in the tooth now and as my brain expands my pecker shrinks. But with a good stick book I manage now and then.

  13. #13 Politicalguineapig
    July 18, 2012

    Paul Hill: Way to mansplain Germaine Greer. I happen to be a woman, thanks. I also have more than a passing interest in feminism, and Greer’s regarded as a crank. (I guess I type like a man, thus the rampant confusion.Also I’m not sure you know what ‘fondle’ means. I damn well would judge a guy who fondled a kid.
    You may not know this, but police officers are required to give a damn about child abuse and start the machinery of law. (Grown women are still on their own, but nothing new there.)
    There may seem to be more cases of child abuse now, but that’s only because people actually talk about it now.
    Not to say that some horrifying cases still don’t slip through the cracks, but..well. Women are always gonna fall for the lies of happily ever after, and men are always going to have sudden and awful personality changes.

    From one of Laing’s essays:

    A boy of three is held by his mother out of a sixthstorey window by his neck. His mother says: “See how much I love you.” The demonstration being that if she did not love him she would drop him. It was to show him that she loved him. Why else should she do it? That is what she said she was doing it for, and evidently to her no clearer proof of love could be vouchsafed. In that case, one has got to move into the psychology of that woman, and that is the psychology of normality. This is an example of extreme normality. The normal way parents get their children to love them is to terrorize them, to say to them in effect: “Because I am not dropping you, because I am not killing you, this shows that I love you, and therefore you should come for the assuagement of your terror to the person who is generating the terror that you are seeking to have assuaged.” The above mother is rather hyper-normal.

    So…you’re seriously defending a man that believed that society thought this was normal? I’ll admit that a lot of people in the ’50s didn’t believe that women, children and people of other races were human, but I fuckin’ guarantee you that most of them would have been absolutely horrified by that example.
    Laing’s branch of psychology was still under thrall to Freud, which partly explains why he is so epically wrong. Put garbage in, get garbage out.

  14. #14 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    July 18, 2012

    @Politicalguineapig – I am not about to let you make the perfectly good word “fondle” dirty. It means “to touch or stroke lovingly”. You can fondle someone’s arm; you can fondle an iPAD. You can fondle a baby and it can be perfectly OK.

    If you mean “touched a kid sexually and inappropriately” then say so.

  15. #15 Denice Walter
    July 18, 2012

    While I really didn’t want to open that can of words- Laing:
    he was trying to sell books more than help people. I think that he latched onto fashionable 1970s ideas about freedom and liberation, re-imagining people with schizophrenia as being ‘creative’ and ‘rebels’- somehow more in touch with the true reality or suchlike. There’s a lot wrong there. The parental messages/ double bind stuff ( *a la* Bateson) as being causative rather than a result of SMI is another big miss. Parents may have mental issues as well because these illnesses are hereditary: their actions don’t cause the illness- which is physiological- but may affect life skills attainment, level of functioning et al. Interesting how the ‘bad guy’ always seems to be the mother – when there is a nearly equal chance that either parent can have serious issues.

    Treatment of SMI needs to be guided by research rather than rhetoric: meds and non-medical apsects can be studied as well as side effects, lack of compliance, genetic issues and level of functioning / living in the community. E. Fuller Torrey discusses some of this.

  16. #16 Politicalguineapig
    July 18, 2012

    Mephistopheles: I always thought that fondling was the same as foreplay. Then again, I’m American so it might be a language difference.

  17. #17 Krebiozen
    July 18, 2012

    Paul Hill,
    Sorry, I’m not really interested in duplicating decades old biochemistry experiments because the results in the literature don’t fit with your fantasies. There is plenty of information available about how glycemic indices for various foods have been determined. Whether you like it or not the glycemic index of a baked potato is higher than that of sucrose and that of glucose is even higher. That’s why we use glucose (we used to use Lucozade), not sucrose, for GTTs. As one of the papers I linked to pointed out, ingesting 75 grams or more of glucose is not something that people normally do, so even if you did see spikes in blood glucose after glucose, .it doesn’t mean you will see the same after someone pigs out on sugary garbage.

  18. #18 Politicalguineapig
    July 18, 2012

    PH: I just noticed the thing about Hitler. Are you ever not wrong? Hitler was elected because a lot of ordinary Germans agreed with him, and they happened to be desperate. Ever heard of the Treaty of Versailles? The Great Depression? Don’t go spouting off about history when you know nothing of it, little man.

  19. #19 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 18, 2012

    Politicalguineapig,
    If I said something that you totally agreed with to yourself, you’d still have to put shit on it. I try to be friendly but you spit on me in return.

    Denice Walter,
    Same thing.
    “Parents may have mental issues as well because these illnesses are hereditary: their actions don’t cause the illness- which is physiological” ONCE AGAIN,THE PRECISE GENES PLEASE IF YOU DON’T MIND. So a kid can get bashed, thrown up against the wall, have cigarettes butted out on it’s arse, vilified, ridiculed, spat on etc. and grow up normal.

    I was violently abused by my father and my mother denied that it had ever happened till the day she died. Every attempt at reconciliation with them. by me was construed as an attempt to hurt them. My mother was a Catholic and because I had left the insanity of Christianity behind, now lampooning it instead, I HAD to be bad. Same with my old man. He accused me of having gone bankrupt DELIBERATELY to just to hurt him. It was painful enough being forced into bankruptcy without, not just having any help from ANYONE, but then copping that. Yet he went bankrupt. HIMSELF.

    When I lost both boats in horrific accidents, they didn’t even come near me, in hospital for a fortnight the first time. From memory they didn’t even write to me. My Baptist Minister brother told me that abalone diving was a selfish thing to do. At one time when I was A Christian I was talking about becoming a missionary in New Guinea. The reason, because, as a manic depressive that was the very worst thing that I could think of. Therefore it had to be God’s will for my life. Then when I backslid I was the word’s worst, a ‘Dog turned unto It’s own vomit’ He had taken me to the Billy Graham meetings where I entered the psychosis of God on top of what I already had. So backsliding was a slap in the face for him, eroded his own faith. When you backslide you are supposed to be leading people into HELL by your example, putting the salvation of Jesus to an open shame. That makes you a serial killer, hundreds, thousand’s maybe, of victims.

    After the boat accidents came the suicides of the deckies. Try to understand what it feels like to be accused of being a serial killer psychopath, with 6 victims and be denied an inquest to clear my name. No partner, no kids, one visitor, FIFTEEN years totally alone in the ‘wilderness’. Blind irrational prejudice and bigotry. INSANITY.

    You wonder why I support Laing. Because without him at the time I would be dead. I have gone very close to hanging myself on several occasions. I know what society is like. It is ROTTEN and the ridicule I have copped on the blog just confirms that. I came here to try to help people with serious illness as some motivation just to stay alive and forum after forum blog after blog the same, abuse, ridicule. This is the story of my life starting when my old man came back from the war deranged from all the blood and guts he’d experienced. I was five at the time. There has been a lot of insanity and alcoholism in my past relatives, a great wellstream to draw from.

    A few months ago I found out that my father had sexually abuse a girl relative of mine yet I didn’t find out till about 15 years after everyone else in the family did.

    You finally give the game away, trotting out Fuller Torey “Coping with Schizophrenia.”, spokesperson for MAMI, helps middle class abusing parents feel ok as schizophrenia is hereditary so it’s not their fault, not that they are admitting it abusing their children.. A Fascist. Hates his own schizophrenic sister, recommends that schizophrenic’s getting out of the bin should be followed by their parents to make sure they don’t buy street drugs, just the shot for someone who believes they are being followed. Have a special high security room in the house to put the kid into if he suddenly start going off, until the Police, National Guard, Army, aircraft carrier gets into position off shore. THAT IS PRECISELY THE SORT OF HOME THAT WILL MAKE THE KID GO OFF.

    He’s in a town on the Istra Peninsula scratching his head saying, ‘According to theory, the Istra Peninsula should have the lowest level of schizophrenia on Earth, instead it’s the second highest after Galway in Ireland.’ He can’t take the next logical step and say to himself, ‘Hey maybe the theory is wrong.’ HE IS AN AUTHORITARIAN MONSTER.

    As to the mother, you must have monstrous scales in front of your eyes. I go to inordinate lengths to to balance the equation but you still insist that Laing is blaming the mother. He is doing no such thing of the kind. Selective blindness all round. Believe what you INSIST on believing.

    Laing said that when he went to Psychiatrist conferences, there’d be discussion about a paper some psychiatrist was going to get published in a prestigious journal mentioning sexual abuse and cover up as a cause of schizophrenia, but trotting out genes as a possible cause as well. However, he’d come under subtle pressure from other delegates, tone down the stuff about the abuse, after all this is a PRESTIGIOUS journal. By the time the paper was published the stuff on abuse had been left out. As most of these shrinks would be blokes you’d have to question their motives for doing this.

    One extremely important case was the famous quintuplets from Dennmark, all diagnosed schizophrenic. Gotta be hereditary with FIVE of them. Now I don’t remember where Laing got the info from, court cases probably, but all five were horrifically abused by BOTH parents, who were psychotic Christian fundamentalists. The mother held two of them down whilst the father burned off their clitorises with SULPHURIC ACID. That’s just the worst aspect. I buy a standard text book on psychcophysiology and there is a picture of them, all dressed identically, probably in their fifties but not one mention of abuse. They have become the benchmark, the yardstick, proof positive of hereditary.

    THE ‘science’ of psychology/psychiatry is about insanity, including the insanity of those motivated to practice it. Therefore it is riddled with lies and cover up.

  20. #20 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 18, 2012

    Politicalguineapig,
    About Hitler Can’t you tell when someone is taking the piss out. Must be all that hatred you’ve got bottled up inside of you. Like ‘little man’. I happen to know all helluva lot of history, Germany, Versailles, ESPECIALLY the great Depression. Since July 1 1975, when New York city almost went bankrupt, I’ve been predicting a collapse in the world economy. My next date is August 2 when Obama is gonna have a punch up with the Republicans to try to raise the debt ceiling. Given the situation in Europe coming on top of this, it’ll be interesting to see what happens.

    TWO DEADLINES JULY 3rd and AUGUST 2nd.
    I wrote this in response to an interview on Saturday Extra between Geraldine Doogue and the ex head of the World Bank. I was horrified at his suggestion of a Marshall Plan as such talk just delays facing the truth as soon as possible as to the ONLY way out, a MASSIVE global redistribution of wealth DOWNWARD in order to reverse the absurd UPWARD redistribution from around 1973. This redistribution would achieve 3 main necessary objectives. Allow lower income people to pay off their debt, create purchasing power in their hands in order to stimulate demand for goods and services and remove the extremely dangerous political polarisation which must eventually spill over into violence and with it hyperinflation and economic collapse. This is the ONLY way to get growth whilst establishing equality and ALL that goes with it, low unemployment, low crime, low hospital admissions, low debt, high productivity etc. This is NOT a left wing perspective, as most people would like to be megarich with least amount of effort involved. Like Chomsky I am a non-violent anarchist.

    Marshall Plan? Where is the money gonna come from? The US? It’s bankrupt and needs a Marshall plan for itself. From the printing presses? It’s already coming from the printing presses and that is inflationary as well as creating more debt. Austerity means worse inequality which is the fundamental problem. Say’s law is immutable. MASSIVE redistribution is the ONLY thing that can possibly work. Time is running out. Research by ABC into possible bankrupt US city debenture interest payments default on July 1 is mandatory and VERY urgent. I can’t do it. In 1975 it was New York city that was going to declare bankruptcy and default on $2 billion debenture interest payments due July 1st. Years of feather bedding by city public servant awarding themselves higher and higher pensions, falling city tax revenue due to small businesses leaving the city in response to higher rates, even more leaving etc. drove up city debt to the point where it became a grave crisis.

    The State wouldn’t bail it out as it’s credit rating would have been downgraded, meaning higher interest rates. The Ford admin. refused also because it would have set a precedent for other US cities to follow cap in hand. Debt would have spiralled upward. Then as the deadline got closer the NYSE began to jump around and finally the Ford admin. caved in. Now look at the result today a world DROWNING in debt.

    As I understand it with quarterly taxes having been introduced since, debenture interest payments may fall due quarterly. New York is apparently flush but many other US cities are in financial ruin. If a number defaulted simultaneously July 1st, unable to borrow from banks due to credit being squeezed, combined with ZZZ credit rating of these cities, the plug might come out, air holes everywhere in NYSE, one BIG air hole. As July 1st is a Saturday and July 4th is a public holiday, Monday the 3rd is the most probable candidate.

    STOP PRESS 25/6/2012
    President Obama tried to turn the heat up on Republicans over the national debt ceiling in his White House press conference this morning. His message was clear: He has been willing to make the politically tough decisions needed to rein in the deficit. Republicans haven’t.
    Just as important, Obama raised the stakes by saying he would not sign any stop-gap measures to allow negotiations to continue beyond AUGUST 2. That leaves negotiators just three weeks to strike a deal and secure congressional approval. Those weeks are going to test not just the wills of Democratic and Republican leaders but also the patience of the financial markets. Debt rating agencies have warned of a possible downgrade of the U.S. credit rating, and the new chief of the International Monetary Fund says failure to raise the debt ceiling poses a threat to global financial stability.
    Obama was gracious to John Boehner, noting that the House Speaker faced difficult challenges within the House GOP caucus. That olive branch reflected Obama’s hope that Boehner might decide to re-engage in talks on a $4-trillion debt ceiling deal that would trade entitlement reform for tax hikes.  
    OVERVIEW OF WORLD ECONOMY FROM 1973
    This is brief overview of the events leading up to the current financial crisis. In 1973 the Yom Kippur war took place in which Soviet backed Egypt and Syria attacked Israel which very narrowly defeated both, in part due to US assistance in supplying weapons to Israel. In retaliation Arab OPEC states slapped an oil embargo on the US and the Netherlands, the result of which sent world oil prices soaring, thus beginning the end of the post WW2 boom. The outcome of this oil price hike was a massive redistribution of wealth from the non-oil producing world to the oil producers, primarily the Persian Gulf states. This huge surplus for the Gulf states went into European banks and became known as petrodollars or Eurodollars. The Gulf states went on a huge spending spree, snapping up prestigious investments like Harrods in London. Looking for somewhere to invest this money stimulated a drastic lowering of house mortgage borrower requirements in the US which resulted in the sub-prime bubble.

    Unfortunately one man’s meat is another’s poison and a surplus for the oil producers meant debt for the non-oil producers having to pay 500% more for their oil than before Yom Kippur. In 1975 the debt crisis, in part resulting from the oil price hike, begins, probably as a result of the New York bailout setting an example to the rest of the world that debt is acceptable and bailouts are now all the go. The gurus decided that the prudence shown in 1929 in raising interest rates straight after the Crash was dreadfully unsophisticated and actually created the Great Depression. Galbraith argued quite correctly that the Great depression was necessary to squeeze the speculative pus out of the system and establish a more equitable basis for recovery

    The Gulf states were very keen to lend their huge surplus of petrodollars and the non oil producers were very keen to borrow it and emulate the success of the Gulf states by just getting stuff out of the ground to make a big quid just as the Arabs have done. Thus from ’75 the ‘resources boom’ begins and soon fails primarily because speculative investment capital going primarily into resource development starved the very users of said resources, the manufacturing sector, whilst unleashing mergers, greenmailing, stagflation, accountancy distortions, a huge range of tax evasion schemes based on no or low capital gains tax. Almost all of this crap takes place in the resource and mining industries because they are more speculative by nature than manufacturing, eg blasting gold flecks into the wall of a gold mine with a shotgun or Psioden issued at 50 cents and rocketing to $198 then collapsing when speculators finally realised that if there was all that nickel in the ground it would glut the market and crash the world nickel price.

    By now the casino had replaced any post WW2 rationale. The Crash of ’87 is the obvious result of all of the speculation unleashed after 1975 and marks the beginning of the housing bubble for a number of reasons, one major reason in Australia being the Hawke govt introducing a capital gains tax in ‘87 which went nowhere near far enough and which exempted the first home. Before the Crash of ’87 analysts were warning of an impending ‘correction’ and advising little investors to get into unlisted property trusts. So, burned by the share market, a capital gains tax now on shares plus double dipping on dividends, drove investors from the share market into housing. However, the later elimination of double dipping, along with a lowering of the capital gains tax by Howard and boosted by the rise of compulsory superannuation reinvigorated the CAPITAL GAINS or speculative emphasis of Australian stock exchanges. I assume it has been much the same scenario for much of the rest of the world.
    Now we see the end result, 90% of which is caused by increasingly regressive taxation policies, primarily a lowering of capital gains taxation over time, thus promoting counterproductive speculation, whilst making up the shortfall in tax revenue by increasing taxation on the means of production, primarily on the little business. As the rich get richer the poor get poorer as a consequence of the rich getting richer and with ever greater concentration of wealth into fewer and fewer hands. Consumer spending drops as a consequence of falling income at the ever more relatively populous lower end of the income spectrum. So credit is liberalised to compensate and debt rises in all sectors of the global economy.

  21. #21 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 19, 2012

    A PLAN FOR REDISTRIBUTION.
    ‘What profiteth a man (and presumably a woman) if he gain the whole world and lose his soul’ Ok, lets assume that the ancients thought that when you were happy you had your soul and when you were depressed, you’d lost it and if you had a panic attack you were in Hell. When you were in a catatonic coma, like Lazarus, you were dead.

    Imagine you are one of the US megarich standing looking through the window from your mansion high up on a hill overlooking the financial district of New York. You can see the Occupy Wall St. mob trying to blockade the stock exchange. You shudder with the realisation that most of that mob would like to roast you alive. You’ve been having ever worsening panic attacks as the real gravity of your situation hits home. Sure you’ve got a high wall around the mansion topped with razor wire, security cameras all over the place, electronically operated reinforced gates etc. to ensure that no would be assassin can get in, but what about those on the INSIDE. The staff, the cook, maid, gardener, chauffeur and especially the bodygaurd.

    About a year ago when things were a lot calmer you forced them all to take a pay cut, told them if they wouldn’t cop it there were plenty of wetbacks who would. Although they seemed to try to hide it, they all seemed to resent it like hell, and were surly for days. Couldn’t possibly offer them an increase now as it would give the game away that you’re getting scared. Thing is, how many of them bring their guns to work. You were going to get a metal detector and force them to have it run over them by the security guard, but you know they wouldn’t cop it. Anyway how do you trust the security guard? How do you trust ANYONE, even the wife? 20 years your junior but very tasty, obviously only after your dough. But puts on a reasonable act.

    You’re trapped, TRAPPED. The security systems that keep intruders out prevent YOU sneaking out incognito and where do you go anyway? You can go out in the bullet proof Mercedes, but what about the bodygaurd. Mrs Ghandi got shot dead by her own bodygaurd. Bloody hell, no way out, completely trapped, difficultly breathing, another panic attack coming on. Can’t let the staff see it. Gotta get down into the cellar quick before you freeze.

    Once in there, lock the door. Whew, that’s better. Then the drone of the fan suddenly reminds you that anyone has access to the air inlet. Hell, it’s like solitary confinement in here. You think you hear laughter, coming from the staff, who else. Out there right across the nation millions of people loath and abominate you. Useless bloody vermin, cockroaches you called them when interviewed on NBC about philanthropy, helping the poor. Why should I, you said, lazy useless scum. If they’d just get off their asses and do a days work they’d be fine. Perverts and commies.. You could say stuff like that without worry as you had plenty of security the. Now you freak that the staff all thought you were talking about them, consciously and deliberately.

    You were so successful because you pulled your finger out, used nouse to invest wisely. Now you’re not so sure. Maybe you’ve created nothing, just redistributed wealth upward. Friedman told you personally about the trickle down effect and you believed him. It’s all his fault. You are now freezing stiff with terror. Thousands of volts of electricity are pouring through your body. Your heart is pounding like a jackhammer. Millions of people are advancing on the mansion screaming hatred. Axes, machetes, jugs of nitric acid, red hot pokers to inset into your anus. The staff are opening the gates to let them in. Oh Jesus, Jesus help me, PLEASE. Right now you’d give everything away just to come out of this eternal hell, EVERYTHING. Or if you could just keep enough to buy a modest house with a reasonable car, no debt and some REAL friends, that would be fine. But how? It’s to late.

    Then there is a bang on the door. It’s the nurse. ‘Are you okay in there Mr. Billions. Time for your medication and cook tells me your your lunch is ready’ Oh whew, every thing’s ok. The relief is monumental and floods right through his being. He gingerly opens the door. The Nurse is standing looking ashen face. ‘What is it he says’, alarmed once more. ‘There has been a massive fall on the stock exchanges’. Wall St has been shut down but Asian exchanges are in free fall.’ ‘Bloody Hell’ he says knowing that the city will erupt with violence. ‘There’s been looting of supermarkets in the Bronx and Harlem but the police have contained it for now’ she says. ‘Hell it’s already started’. Straight after a quick lunch he’ll ring his lawyers to work out a plan for redistribution. He’ll contact other megarich and urge them to do likewise. Then they can make announcements that night on TV networks in order to shore up the markets to stop the bottom falling out completely tomorrow. He’s got the ear of the President. Get the secretary to make contact as soon as possible.

    He begins to feel relieved, cathartic. Then an intense euphoria sweeps over him as he envisages his modest house in the suburbs. What has wealth done for him, insecurity, alienation and fear, that’s all. The mansion a huge white elephant with staff that either resent or hate him. Maybe his wife might start to actually love the new fair him. It suddenly hits him that he has been reborn in that cellar, gone down into Hell and now ascended in the Heaven of peace of mind. Then he suddenly understands what Jesus really meant when he said ‘Ye must be born again’. Tears cascade down his cheeks. At first the nurse looks puzzled and then begins to smile as if she understands and there is an empathy between them for the first time, friendship REAL friendship. ‘Don’t worry about the medication’ he says. ‘As a matter of fact you can put them in the incinerator.’ Then thinking for a few seconds says. ‘No I’ll do it. I’ll enjoy doing it……VERY much.

    There is more if anyone is interested.

  22. #22 Politicalguineapig
    July 19, 2012

    PH: So a kid can get bashed, thrown up against the wall, have cigarettes butted out on it’s arse, vilified, ridiculed, spat on etc. and grow up normal.

    No one said that. If the parents or family line carries schizophrenia, then the child will probably develop schizophrenia. If not, the child might develop post-traumatic stress disorder, which is something else entirely. The problem with psychologists in most of the 20th century (aside from Freud) is that they tended to resort to a few catch-all diagnoses rather than finding out what was actually wrong.

    PH: Since you’re operating in a different universe entirely, I can’t tell when you’re joking and when you’re serious. And I am not ‘putting shit on you’- I’m just playing around- mostly. Men who pretend to be feminists tend to get on my last nerve, especially when they end up revealing that like most men, they’ll always stick up for a fellow man over a woman, no matter what the man did. Regardless, I haven’t been nearly as harsh on you as I am on other commenters on other blogs.

  23. #23 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 19, 2012

    As it’s getting impossibly crowded on this page, which is getting impossibly long, I have moved house to the page which Mr Oracle has set of especially so that my disciples can bathe in my light or heap scorn upon me, both of which shall inflate me ego even more, if that is possible.

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/07/10/an-inflated-view-of-ones-importance/#comment-192242

  24. #24 Krebiozen
    July 19, 2012

    One extremely important case was the famous quintuplets from Dennmark, all diagnosed schizophrenic.

    Do you mean the Genain quadruplets, who are from America, not Denmark, and are quadruplets, not quintuplets, all four of them? As for “ONCE AGAIN,THE PRECISE GENES PLEASE IF YOU DON’T MIND. ” you might read this or numerous other articles that describe the genetic basis of schizophrenia.

  25. #25 Mrs Woo
    July 19, 2012

    @PC (PoliticalGuineaPig) – Paul Hill makes so many assertions with so much other stuff behind them that the required reading to determine how much of his assertions match today’s understand that I’ve given up, though I scan through them again here and there. So glad there are people here who know enough to address him directly. I’m baffled, though, as to why he has chosen to believe people confronting his misunderstanding of everything are his “disciples?”

    The man baffles me.

  26. #26 Krebiozen
    July 19, 2012

    I seem to be incapable of getting a link right first time without preview.

    I’m just as baffled as you Mrs. Woo. PH seems to be a gishgallop in human form.

    I’m always interested in the possibility that mainstream knowledge is wrong, but you need good evidence to get my attention. PH’s ramblings are vaguely plausible-sounding, but don’t stand up under close scrutiny. If there was evidence that people with glycogen storage disorders are more prone to epilepsy or schizophrenia, or evidence of lactic acidosis in epileptics, or of mental heath disorders being caused by dysfunction of glucose regulation or any of the other claims PH makes, I would be more inclined to look into it further. But there really isn’t, and the evidence that does exist about those disorders is not consistent with PH’s models. That suggests to me that PH’s models are worng, not that thousands of scientists are incompetent or dishonest.

  27. #27 Krebiozen
    July 19, 2012

    Aargh!! a link

  28. #28 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 19, 2012

    Sorry folks but I have to move page as I’m using a Sea Monkey browser and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to save the page without broken links and the scroll bar is getting almost too thin to use. I can’t use Internet Explorer browser as some damn Google upgrade thing keeps popping up and won’t go away and I don’t trust things that won’t go away.

  29. #29 Denice Walter
    July 19, 2012

    @ Paul Hill:

    I can’t do a dissertation for you- however, I do have a few comments:
    in the last year or so, gene 22 has been implicated in both autism and schizophrenia.

    I’m sorry about your being abused. It won’t cause schizophrenia in a person who doesn’t have the genetic-environmental ( pre- or peri-natal ) set-up ( see schizophrenia.com/ causation) BUT that is not to saying that you aren’t suffering and that it isn’t fair. Suffering is real and abuse does cause REAL psychological problems that can be lifelong and interfere with how well you function in the world. It’s a shame. Society now is more cognisant of abusive parents and attempts to help children more but that doesn’t help you.

    I doubt that you are schizophrenic: most of them do not achieve after adolescence because that’s when the more severe symptoms of the illness intensify. You were a captain of a boat: this tells me that you are able to function independently. Now, when catastrophes, such as those you describe, befall ANYONE, it takes a toll: a person who was never abused and who has no real symptoms will suffer. Someone with a history of abuse will suffer even MORE.

    I truly hope that there are better days ahead for you.

  30. #30 Politicalguineapig
    July 19, 2012

    Mrs. Woo: I’m baffled, though, as to why he has chosen to believe people confronting his misunderstanding of everything are his “disciples?”

    My best guess is that he thinks he can convert us. I wish him good luck. I can only keep up with half his comments, but I try. And like I said, I’ve been nice. Although I am kinda snickering at the idea that this comment thread is full: I guess he doesn’t realize some threads get to 600+ easily. LOL.

  31. #31 Denice Walter
    July 19, 2012

    @ politicalguineapig:

    I think that Paul is an interesting, entertaining person who is not schizophrenic- his language is close to normal prose and invites the listener into his world.. He wants conversation with intelligent people and a chance to tell his tale. He’s had difficulties and has suffered greatly. I spy a spark of writerishness in his material.

    I also think that he can have a better life NOT hidden away from society in a rain forest- altho’ it might involve some adjustments for him. Australia is not the Third World and there should be resources to help him to live in a better way.

  32. #32 Mrs Woo
    July 19, 2012

    @Denice – I think for now it is what he prefers, or he wouldn’t go back to it. Some people in this world prefer to live outside of the norm either because they feel it makes them look heroic or because they find something comforting and appealing in the self-sufficiency of it all. Kind of a “take that, civilized society!” attitude.

    The condescension in some of his posts makes me uncomfortable. His attitude that shows in that style of writing is why he also assumes we must be his “disciples” – if we weren’t willing to be addressed in such a manner we wouldn’t be his students?

  33. #33 Denice Walter
    July 19, 2012

    @ Mrs Woo:

    While I won’t speculate on why he might behave as such, I think that some of it is tongue-in-cheek, which speaks volumes in a positive manner: people who can do sarcasm and snark et al, are higher functioning. Similarly, self-deprecating comments.
    I think he wants conversation with smart people at a distance. And we is smart people if I do say so myself.

  34. #34 thenewme
    July 19, 2012

    @Denice Walter, I completely agree with your assessment that PH has suffered and is hurting. However, I personally can’t abide someone who uses their own tragedy as justification for hurting others. I too hope that he gets the help he needs, but he’s showing zero effort in that direction.

    To go out of his way to seek out a forum full of scared and desperate cancer patients (i.e. BCO) to peddle his dangerous, unproven, and potentially deadly advice to bypass their medical oncologists in lieu of self-treating with his black magic woo regimen is just unconscionable. It’s a sick and dangerous game he’s playing.

  35. #35 Denice Walter
    July 19, 2012

    @ thenewme:

    I didn’t realise he went there: I thought his efforts were limited to RI threads with Krebiozen et al. Different story.

  36. #36 thenewme
    July 19, 2012

    @Denice,
    Oh yeah. He went there, and anywhere else on the net he could think of to find a target audience of ill patients with cancer, diabetes, weight loss, et. all!

    Just do a search on BCO or Google for “Nodules” or “Noddy” or “Paul Hill ketone.”

    Here’s a sample of his advice for a real stage IV breast cancer patients on BCO:

    …If you went off refined sugar you might even put on some weight and be ready for the ketone diet but gently does it using Ketostix to monitor your urine. You could go in and out of ketosis just as an animal in the wild does. It has to work if there is next to zero glucose in your bloodstream because even moderately malignant cancer cells must die if they can’t get glucose.

    Yeah. There’s no excuse. If he stuck to RI, I might find him entertaining, but instead he’s just one sick F**K.

  37. #37 Calli Arcale
    July 19, 2012

    Y’know, if going in and out of ketosis like a wild animal prevents cancer, one has to wonder why looking for tumors on the entrails of animals was such a common means of divination in ancient times. Or why palentologists have found dinosaurs with bone cancer. (And Tyrannosaurs with gout — ah, gotta love that wild diet, eh?)

  38. #38 Politicalguineapig
    July 19, 2012

    DW: I’m kinda torn, so it’s hard to say. He reminds me of a cross between a schizophrenic I met at college (she’d wandered in, asking if she could meet with a priest so they could foil a CIA plot to make black people behave badly.) and my old-hippy sociology teacher who took quite a lot of hard drugs in her youth and consequently believed in conspiracy theories. Her greatest hit was the time she solemnly informed the class that the real reason a nearby highway bridge collapsed was because the college across the river was creating acoustic weapons with the backing of the US army. Otherwise she was a lot saner then Mr. Hill. Then again men are a lot more vulnerable to mental illness then women are. Testosterone is a highly volatile substance.

  39. #39 Denice Walter
    July 19, 2012

    I think his language/ writing is too good for a person with schizophrenia also that he had a career; although men who *really* have Schizophrenia may enjoy respite around age 40+ when there is less hormonal activity and women may get worse at that age because of their hormonal patterns** – in VERY general terms, that is. Aging people may have other psychological problems. While I don’t believe he has schizophrenia, I’m not saying that his mental health is most likely fine and dandy either. A person can have other syndromes, aggravated by trauma plus previous alcohol and drug abuse, compounding issues even more.

    I don’t diagnose any more than saying I might believe that there ARE issues or NOT; just an educated guess-( you need to see people over time/ test)- just like I might if I made a judgment based on what I read/ heard in RL.

    About giving bad medical advice and playing doctor, you don’t need to be SMI to do that- and it’s wrong no matter what. There seems to be a lot of it going around- as I have learned in my surveys of the world of woo. Leave your doctor, toss your meds- be it for cancer, HIV, SMI..

    ** interesting about aging and hormonal pattern/ role changes..

  40. #40 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 19, 2012

    When you mob are done with all of the psychoanalysis of your’s truly (behind my back) could you please move to this page as I cannot conduct science on a blog which has got 250 bloody comments on it. This the third time I have made this appeal. It has links back to this page for quick reference. I want to get right down to the nitty gritty of blood sugar regulation.

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/07/10/an-inflated-view-of-ones-importance/#comment-192242

  41. #41 Politicalguineapig
    July 19, 2012

    DW: I agree, but personally, if Mr. Hill wants to say he has schizophrenia, I’m not going to quarrel with it.
    There is just no excuse for predation though. My patience with woo got kind of worn through last year, when a friend of mine was going through absolute hell with her woo-loving parents. I’ll spare you the details, but I totally agreed with my other friend who was having a hard time not punching the first friend’s parents in the face. (All parties concerned are legally adults, though two live with parental units.) Thankfully, everyone lived, though now I have to convince one of them that she is not overweight and doesn’t need to diet. She has the metabolism of a hummingbird anyway.

  42. #42 Krebiozen
    July 20, 2012

    I’m not sure why I bother, but anyway…

    To cuppa coffee with six heaped teaspoons of sucrose. All enzymes do is dramatically speed up chemical reactions that would take place anyway, even in cold water, over time. In boiling water, assuming that the hydrolysis of sucrose is an endothermic reaction, I’d expect it to be hydrolyzed to glucose: fructose fairly quickly.

    This is just one example of something you “reckon” or “assume” that is incorrect. Instead of checking your facts you charge off into a wild fantasy based on something that is demonstrably untrue. You can boil sucrose for hours and it will remian sucrose, unless you add an acid to it. The half life of sucrose in aqueous solution at 25C is 440 years. It took me all of 30 seconds to find that information.

  43. #43 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 20, 2012

    Krebiozen’
    I don’t know how long it took me to find this information as I didn’t time it.

    When using the Benedict’s solution on the sucrose, Test tube 1 showed no change with sucrose still being read as negative for monosaccharides or disaccharides. This is the normal result because Benedict’s doesn’t react with all small sugars, including sucrose; however, in Tube 2 after being in the hot water bath for 2-3 minutes, the Benedict reagent reacted with the broken down sucrose to produce an orange solution that indicates it’s positive for monosaccharides. Hydrolysis proved effective in this case as we went from a negative reading to a positive reading after using hydrolysis to break down sucrose. The remaining sugar is either fructose or glucose.

    Acid. Isn’t that something that is in the stomach, HCL as I recall, with some H2SO4, a pH of around 2. No food in the girls stomach to neutralize the acid then I’d imagine that all of that sucrose would have been hydrolyzed to monosaccharides by the time they reach the duodenum. I’ve been checking your ‘facts’ and finding many serious anomalies old cock. Many!!! Next?

  44. #44 Krebiozen
    July 20, 2012

    You appear to have missed the part of the experiment where hydrochloric acid was added, and then the mixture was placed in a boiling water bath. Acid hydrolysis at high temperatures, as I wrote above.

  45. #45 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 20, 2012

    Doesn’t matter. My original comment was only a guess anyway. The main thing is that stomach HCl does the same thing so that monosaccharides end up in the duodenum which is what I wanted to find out. Monosacharrides must elicit a GIP axis effect because I just remembered that when rats are INJECTED glucose there is no insulin response. Must go through GI tract.

  46. #46 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 21, 2012

    Politicalguineapig
    ‘Psuedonyms ensure that no one can.. say, track down one’s physical location and injure or kill that someone’.

    Well I don’t use a pseudonym and I’m totally up front about everything, put myself under a global spotlight by emailing so much media, can have my medical, any criminal, etc. record scrutinized, security concerns and my address.

    Now I’ll go one step further and give you my email address so that anyone who is a bit timid to comment here can email me, or who knows Krebiozen and thinks that he is over the top can send me info on him so I can check him out online. He is the sort of person who just couldn’t help himself by telling acquaintances to watch this post whilst he demolishes this dickhead no nothing amateur ‘scientist’ not realizing that it is HE they think is the dickhead, whilst I, the underdog, is putting up a great performance. That way there will be a level playing field because I think a pseudonym is a coward’s castle from which to rubbish someone and claim qualifications which could be completely bogus.

    noddyblacksheep@hotmail.co.uk

    Now I’ll go one step further still and give you the web links to a doco. maker, and the doco. he made on me so you can watch a short or download the DVD called ‘Road to Apollo’.

    Won’t post links.

    Now I can get death threats.

  47. #47 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 21, 2012

    The links will not post. Isn’t it amazing. Just Google Nubar Ghazarian, Flying Fish Films, ‘The Road to Apollo’

  48. #48 Politicalguineapig
    July 21, 2012

    PH: That way there will be a level playing field because I think a pseudonym is a coward’s castle from which to rubbish someone and claim qualifications which could be completely bogus.

    Dude, most people use psuedonyms on the web. I guess you don’t have to worry about identity theft (who’d want yours?) or losing your job because of an internet post, but some of us do. Nyms are perfectly legit, and I have no doubt that most of the posters are actually qualified to talk about the subjects they studied or work in. Yes, I don’t have a way to check Kreb’s credentials, but the language xi uses shows that xi is qualified in their field. They also provide good explanations to laymen like you and me, which is a real test, since they have to break it down and keep the explanation clear and concise. An unqualified person has to dress up their explanations in all kinds of gobbledygook; the scientist has to keep it simple.
    I also try to avoid gendered language, unless the commenter uses an identifying tag- lilady and Mrs. Woo, for instance. Avoids embarrassment all around.

  49. #49 Mrs Woo
    July 21, 2012

    @PH – have to vote with the Politicalguineapig (PC!) here. I have been on the internet in various forums for more than 15 years now… wow, maybe more like 20. You learn really quickly that you’re better off not being well known – too many crazy people out there will actually try to track you down and threaten you, even if you’re doing nothing that is actually … “bad.”

    Usually I figure the people being “honest” about who they are are either pretending to be a real person or they’re naive and have never run into something that has yet to make them afraid to share everything about themselves with total strangers. The support group I run has a lot of women who share information and send each other cards and presents. Only a select few of that group have gotten me to trust them enough to let them have my real information, even though it seems like a great deal of these women have each others addresses, cell phone numbers, etc., etc. Just too easy to run into an unscrupulous person who will use that information the wrong way.

  50. #50 Denice Walter
    July 21, 2012

    @ politicalguineapig:

    Several people I know who blog/ comment- amongst them regulars here- who have been harassed in RL by those they criticise. A certain anti-vaxxer goes after two guys at work ,separately; another gets calls at home and work, bothering family members and employers; another gets SUED. There are other tales @ RI similar to Krebiozen’s.

    I use a semi-pseudo ‘nym ( two fo my four names) thus ‘Walter’ is more penultimate than pen-name. I thought about using my two surnames – guys’ names, i.e. Walter “Howard”** or “Howard” Walter, as a ‘nym but my feminism wouldn’t let me. If I had to do it over, I’d probably use my 4 real initials and say I’m female. I currently leave my location out.

    ** doesn’t “he” sound white bread?

  51. #51 Narad
    July 21, 2012

    Just Google Nubar Ghazarian, Flying Fish Films, ‘The Road to Apollo’

    And? How many takers have you had on “Placebo Park”? How long was their average tenure on-site? I mean, it’s all fine and well, assuming you know the ropes of park liviing and so forth, but “this is the story of a man … who is willing to test his idea’s [sic] by using his life as the ultimate experiment,” and the test of popping in here isn’t going so well.

  52. #52 Krebiozen
    July 21, 2012

    Now I’ll go one step further and give you my email address so that anyone who is a bit timid to comment here can email me, or who knows Krebiozen and thinks that he is over the top can send me info on him so I can check him out online. He is the sort of person who just couldn’t help himself by telling acquaintances to watch this post whilst he demolishes this dickhead no nothing amateur ‘scientist’ not realizing that it is HE they think is the dickhead, whilst I, the underdog, is putting up a great performance.

    How is pointing you to evidence that contradicts your wild speculations “over the top”? I haven’t told anyone to watch this post, and I have never described you as a dickhead. Does annyone here think that I’m the dickhead in this exchange? Apart from bothering to respond to PH at all that is. I will not be giving out my identity. The incident I mentioned before went further than threats, the guy actually turned up at a friend’s house waving a baseball bat around and I got a panicked phone call from him telling me this nutcase was on his way to my house and was threatening to burn it to the ground. He never turned up, but it was a frightening experience.

  53. #53 lilady
    July 21, 2012

    Why should I use my real name when I post here…or on any other science blog. I have shared some personal experiences with my developmentally disabled son and I want to remain anonymous. I also have a history of being stalked at home…several telephone calls that scared my young daughter, following testimonies at public hearings, for the siting of group homes. (NIMBY *sentiments* run high…including making threats to a young girl)

    I’m still being cyber-stalked on Dr. Whitaker’s blog by the Ugh Troll.

  54. #54 Denice Walter
    July 21, 2012

    @ Krebiozen:

    you are about as UN-dickhead as is humanly possible.
    -btw- about 2O years ago, while reading readers’ letters in *The Economist* I came across the expression *Lombard* by which the respondent was not referring to an inhabitant of Lombardy, Italia but was instead using an acronym for “lots of money but a real dickhead”. Thus I read the Economist and laughed. Who would have thought.

    @ lilady:

    Although I am a feminist I do believe that women should be especially careful: not because of anything about us but because of others’ attitudes labelling us ‘easy prey”, incapable of defending ourselves, weak and other unfounded notions. Those cases of harassment I described above were all men, -btw-

    I read what @ugust!ne wrote. Typical. Interesting that he doesn’t show here often these days. I wonder why?

  55. #55 sheepmilker
    July 21, 2012

    Denice, he’s over at erv a lot

  56. #56 Denice Walter
    July 21, 2012

    @ sheepmilker:

    I know, I’ve seen. Perhaps Abbie is getting a laugh over him.

  57. #57 lilady
    July 21, 2012

    @ Denice Walter: I am careful about preserving my anonymity. I don’t *know* why the Ugh Troll has not been posting here, of late. He is lurking here, however.

    Dr. Whitaker removed comments on his blog, that he considered off topic, so why doesn’t he remove the Ugh Trolls…which do not add anything to the discussion and are only cyber-stalking me?

  58. #58 Krebiozen
    July 21, 2012
  59. #59 lilady
    July 21, 2012

    Along with Krebiozen’s link to OINK, is this recently-coined PIGS acronym from Wall Street:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGS_%28economics%29

  60. #60 Narad
    July 21, 2012

    If I may refine my previous question to Paul: (1) Is Placebo Park meant to emulate Archway? (2) Have you seen Asylum?

  61. #61 THS
    Sunny mild weather here
    July 21, 2012

    Still exploring this enjoyable and informative site. The “integration” of pseudoscience with science sets my teeth on edge, too. Pseudoscience has the “advantage” of no constraints of reality and is impervious to the rigors of evidence and careful argument. And hey, wow, man, the thread here got a bit out of hand, maybe. (I was surprised & intrigued at some reasonable side-comments regarding psychedelics.) The recent comments regarding ‘nyms, location, and identification of the posters gives me pause. Harassment – eek! Orac, if a cool ‘nym ever comes from this email address (if ever I think of just the right one!), it’s not a puppet, it’s just me and it’ll be stable, consistent.

  62. #62 Mrs Woo
    July 21, 2012

    @THS – was attempting to argue with Mr Woo that the reason there are no “side effects” or bad outcomes in alternative medicine is not because they don’t exist, but rather because no one has ever specifically, scientifically studied various herbal preparations, etc., to determine efficacy, side effects, percentage who had side effects, etc.

    He, of course, assured me I was wrong and that natural cures are better because everything could be considered a food that was used as a natural cure and that the complete herb, etc., had special compounds in it that would prevent anyone from having any issues with them.

    Arsenic is natural, I believe…

    ~sigh~

  63. #63 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 21, 2012

    Krebiozen,
    How would you like your research to be constantly called ‘nonsense’ as you have called mine when you obviously DON’T read it properly. I’ve done forty years theoretical research on my stuff. You give me a lecture on liver function as if I’m not aware of it. Of course you would expect a self taught individual in biology to be a crank. I’m afraid I do it myself. I have not once called myself an alternative CAM or whatever, no black bile or chi or chackas or any of that shit. So why the bloody hell does everybody make that assumption. I don’t class my self as ANYTHING, with the exception that I analyze the symptom, eg convulsions and ask myself what does it do. In that sense ONLY am I naturophatic. Not once have I mentioned a single herb, not that I’m against herbal medicine. My dissertations are long in that I have the disadvantage of not having formal training and thus cannot make simple pronouncements and be believed. So I have to go into a lot of detail. How would you like to be subject to a constant unremitting barrage of ridicule and abuse which is ALL one sided. Having said all of this I am sure that nobody will take any notice of this or read it through biased filters, look for something to ridicule.

  64. #64 Krebiozen
    July 21, 2012

    Mrs. Woo,
    I find those kinds of naturalistic ideas quite interesting. When you dig a little it becomes obvious that they derive from ideas about God putting everything on this earth for mankind’s benefit, the Great Chain of Being view of the universe. According to these ideas, not only do medicinal plants contain just the right combination of chemicals to cure any disease man might suffer from, but God obligingly makes the plant look like the organ it is intended to treat, the Doctrine of Signatures, so the leaf of lungwort looks a bit like a lung so lungwort is used for respiratory diseases. Also, but you find plants that treat the diseases you find in specific places, with willow growing in marshy areas where fevers are common, and willow bark,as we know, is an effective treatment for fevers. Dock leaves are a remedy for stinging nettle stings, and grow in the same place and so on. It’s pure medieval superstition, at its roots, but it lives on in the 21st century as herbalism, just as humors and bloodletting live on in acupuncture and TCM.

  65. #65 Denice Walter
    July 21, 2012

    @ Krebiozen:
    @ lilady:

    Those are terrific! Believe it for not, I have a minor talent for creating acronyms, anagrams and palindromes, usually ridiculous in nature. I’m sure one will slip out if I’m not careful.

  66. #66 herr doktor bimler
    July 22, 2012

    I’ve done forty years theoretical research
    “Theoretical research”? See under “oxymoron”.

  67. #67 herr doktor bimler
    July 22, 2012

    an acronym for “lots of money but a real dickhead”
    WOMBAT is the acronym I found most useful (waste of money, brains and time).

  68. #68 Mrs Woo
    July 22, 2012

    @Krebiozen – I swear I responded to this – it must have been one of the times when SB told me I was posting too quickly and asked me to slow down and then my grandson needed a wooden train track assembled or something. I have seen pieces of what were in the link you posted, but never all in one place like that before. Kind of neat to see it all work together. In the end, it’s another kind of superstition – people guessing how the world works with limited data.

    Mr Woo’s church has a teaching that includes suggesting herbs (and other things) for sick people. I sometimes think it is part of why so many of them end up following woo rather than medicine (or mixing medicine with woo).

    I was so frustrated today – one of the girls in the praise team I’m leading was telling a boy that I brought a can of ravioli for that her “doctor” told her she is allergic to carbohydrates (he is 18, living on his own and between 18 and living on his own I’m pretty sure he’s usually hungry and we stay after church to do music practice). She was actually told by a chiropractor that her depression was caused by this “allergy” (he has actually put that down on her paperwork as a diagnosis) and told her she will never be allowed to eat “carbohydrates” again.

    That is quite a sticky dilemma. She is not my child. I’m sure her parents are paying a lot of money to that chiropractor to diagnose and treat her depression with handfuls of supplements (five at every meal because her body is deficient of digestive enzymes at 16?) and supervision of the special prescribed “no carbohydrate” (didn’t want to assure her that vegetables, fruit, etc., still have carbohydrate in them) diet.

    So hard not to sit her down and explain to her how her body works and that a broad statement like “allergic to carbohydrate” would be incredibly rare and unlikely if at all possible in the first place.

    Told Mr Woo about it afterwards and he went off into a wooish “well, carbohydrate allergy is very common and if you have any disease you should immediately get rid of all wheat and refined sugar because all diseases are rooted in inflammation and everyone knows inflammation is caused by these things, and an allergy to carbohydrates is often a cause of many diseases….”

    Not going to get any help there, obviously. Worse, I don’t want to create waves in this case. I’m sure between teenage rebellion and general physical cravings she probably breaks the “no carbohydrate” rule either knowingly and sometimes unknowingly and is not in any real danger. Just so frustrated that someone who has no real knowledge of what they are doing is making a teenaged girl miserable.

  69. #69 Politicalguineapig
    July 23, 2012

    DW: Several people I know who blog/ comment- amongst them regulars here- who have been harassed in RL by those they criticise.

    I’ve heard a fair amount of horror stories on the feminist blogs I used to frequent. I’m trying to avoid political/feminism sites these days, they just make me stabby and depressed.Just a minor question: in those cases you mentioned, you said ‘they were all men?” Did you mean the victims were men, or that all the harrassers were men? Or both? Wouldn’t surprise me if the harrassers were all male- probably white too. Most white men these days are unemployed and get murderous and rapey.It kinda figures though: men only socialize with other men, and it poisons their ability to connect emotionally with anyone who’s not just like them.

    Kreb: You are not the dickhead here.

    PH: My dissertations are long in that I have the disadvantage of not having formal training and thus cannot make simple pronouncements and be believed. So I have to go into a lot of detail. How would you like to be subject to a constant unremitting barrage of ridicule and abuse which is ALL one sided.

    You’re coming here and pretending that stuff you pulled out of your ass is science. Then you confuse the issue by putting out wall’o texts in every single post. Of course you’re getting a lot of blowback. Just be grateful we’re being gentle; you should see lilady and DW deal with the resident trolls.

  70. #70 Krebiozen
    July 23, 2012

    Mrs. Woo,

    told her she will never be allowed to eat “carbohydrates” again

    Good grief. It’s amazing how these kinds of bizarre idea becomes solidified as unquestionable facts in woo world. Low carb ketogenic diets are undoubtedly useful in some circumstances, and celiac disease is a real thing, but there’s always someone who picks up on ideas like that up and charges off over the horizon with them, applying them in completely inappropriate ways. It reminds me of Robert O. Young who claims that having any sugars of any kind in your body is bad, and that your brain runs on electrons, not glucose. I’d love to see him try to explain that with a blood glucose of zero.

  71. #71 lilady
    July 23, 2012

    @politicalguineapig: I haven’t commented about PH for days now…hoping he will just go away.

    All the RI Regular ladies are well able to handle themselves, now that the Ugh Troll has disappeared. His typical behavior was to target any new female poster here…his specialty was to go into attack mode if a new female ever stated she had a disabled child. The troll had issues with women and he, for some reason thought I was his mommy and tried to work out his animus toward the hapless soul who gave birth to him.

    The ladies of RI have each others back, whenever a misogynist troll makes an appearance.

  72. #72 Denice Walter
    July 23, 2012

    @ politicalguineapig:

    All men! The guys harassed at work by an anti-vaxxer you have “met” here @ RI. You might have read the anti-vaxxer as well, seems he also bothers other people he disagrees with when they are speaking publicly ( men and a woman). Plus he doesn’t exactly relish my literary stylings.

    Two other commenters here describe their experiences above.

    The two bloggers were also men as were their harassers: one criticised a radio woo artist, debated him and wrote it up on a blog and then got sued by the woo and his legal henchman: the judge threw both suits out of court. The other was a blogger who fought HIV/AIDS denialism and received calls to his workplace and at home, including to a family member. It caused so much trouble at work he decided to give up his blog BUT he has returned with another anonymous one.

    -btw- thanks for your kind words. I aims to please.

  73. #73 Krebiozen
    July 23, 2012

    Testosterone poisoning has a lot to answer for.

  74. #74 Mrs Woo
    July 23, 2012

    @Krebiozen – I really like this kid. What upsets me most is she is being told this is a “lifelong” issue (she will never be allowed to eat carbohydrates again, and must take the handfuls of enzymes he sells to digest food properly) and I know it isn’t even real.

    This isn’t as “dangerous” as some of the woo that parents fall for (i.e., bogus cancer treatments, risks from not vaccinating), but a life of misery because someone who went to chiropractic school and learned about all of the ways to “upsell” and “grow” their business and income through “improving health” with supplements and woo diagnoses is still misery and could result, long-term in issues, depending on what the supplements actually are and how honestly the kid sticks to the diet. If I do anything to educate the kid then I’m encouraging her to be disrespectful and rebellious towards her parents, something that will not sit well with most of the church (and most of the church is fairly woo-enamored anyhow).

    I really am struggling with exactly how I should deal with this. My first instinct is to educate the older boy in our group – he is very smitten with the girl and knows her better than I. He also is a bit of a rebel when it comes to a lot of things, so hearing about how to rationally measure claims by people like chiropractors and naturopaths will actually interest him.

    Had to giggle at your other comment @9:56.

    @Mr Hill – your long dissertations are equally unbelievable – they do, however, help people understand what you’ve misunderstood or not known in biology to come up with your pronounced theory. Adding length doesn’t make a wrong theory anymore credible, it just lets people understand why you ended up with the wrong answer.

  75. #75 Krebiozen
    July 23, 2012

    Mrs. Woo,

    I really am struggling with exactly how I should deal with this.

    It sounds like a difficult situation, criticizing parents childrearing is dangerousa territory! Given what you describe I would not be at all surprised if the girl’s problems were psychological in nature. Depression is a common response to feeling helpless, or angry, and even what she eats is being dictated to her at a time when she should really be finding her wings of independence. You might do well to get the young man you mention to take a look at the glycemic load of some common foods and ask why a glass of coke is worse than a ripe banana when they have the same glycemic load, half that of my favorite, a baked potato. It might start him thinking a bit about what they are bing taught.

  76. #76 Composer99
    http://composer99.blogspot.ca
    July 23, 2012

    Mrs Woo:

    I second your notion of discussing the matter with the young man who fancies the young woman you are concerned about.

    If some toes are stepped on and feathers ruffled, you can at least console yourself with the knowledge that the young woman’s interests are being defended by someone, if not her parents or would-be “medical care provider”.

  77. #77 herr doktor bimler
    July 23, 2012

    Robert O. Young who claims that having any sugars of any kind in your body is bad, and that your brain runs on electrons, not glucose. I’d love to see him try to explain that with a blood glucose of zero.

    He is always free to test his theory via a large self-administered dose of insulin.

  78. #78 Politicalguineapig
    July 23, 2012

    DW: Thanks for clearing that up. I sorta remembered those cases, though only as a bystander. And you’re welcome.

    Kreb: Yeah. I keep trying to remember that not all men are dangerous, but it’s easier to constantly profile then it is to trust people.

  79. #79 Militant Agnostic
    July 23, 2012

    It reminds me of Robert O. Young who claims that having any sugars of any kind in your body is bad, and that your brain runs on electrons, not glucose.

    I thought he believed we had nuclear reactors like Godzilla. He believes our bodies can transmute elements.

  80. #80 Mrs Woo
    July 23, 2012

    I don’t know how much he trusts chiropractors, etc. He is a bit of a rebel, etc., and very intelligent. I’ve ‘adopted’ him (he’s younger than my oldest child) and really reminds me of me at his age. He might be easy to convince in the silliness of the diagnosis and what a responsible diet is for a teenaged girl.

  81. #81 THS
    mild sunnny day, sunset coming
    July 23, 2012

    Re transmuting elements: anybody remember that awful book, The Secret Life of Plants?

  82. #82 THS
    still a mild sunny day
    July 23, 2012

    @ Mrs. Woo: Natural plant products: we can start listing a lot of very very poisonous ones, as I’m sure you know. Wouldn’t know where to start – in alphabetical order with alpha amanitin, perhaps? We could go for pages, compete with manic posters for space.

  83. #83 Militant Agnostic
    July 24, 2012

    Krebozian

    why a glass of coke is worse than a ripe banana when they have the same glycemic load, half that of my favorite, a baked potato

    Perhaps, but 250ml of coke is not very much – that is the problem with a lot of these tables – the portion sizes or often much less than a normal serving or are not even given. I wonder if this comparison is only going to serve to scare her away from eating “real food” (fruits and vegetables of any kind). I suspect this may be the goal of such a draconian diet – to create a dependency on supplements by removing all other sources of vitamins, minerals and micro-nutrients. I think that such an absurd diet (no carbohydrates) could set a person up for serious eating disorders later on or result in bizarre and difficult to diagnose (not difficult for “practitioners” who just make stuff up however) micro-nutrient deficiencies.

    The more I think about this, the more I come to the conclusion that the best course of action is to apply a little rig floor “psychology” – grab her parents by the scruff of their necks and bang their heads together.

  84. #84 THS
    A cool calm evening
    July 24, 2012

    On a related topic – someone I know is considering raw fruits & vegetables diet to, um, improve cancer prognosis. I have some expertise related to this matter – Ph.D. program some years ago in an Oncology Dept. – still, I’m looking for specific analyses/take-downs of this particular approach. There are various fads around nutrition & cancer & this and i think one has to do with “starving” tumors. Any pointers, folks? -Thanks!

    (Did Steve Jobs do some quack cancer diet before he got real medical treatment?)

  85. #85 Narad
    July 24, 2012

    Re transmuting elements: anybody remember that awful book, The Secret Life of Plants?

    All the hip kids just got the album.

  86. #86 Krebiozen
    July 24, 2012

    Militant Agnostic,

    Perhaps, but 250ml of coke is not very much – that is the problem with a lot of these tables – the portion sizes or often much less than a normal serving or are not even given.

    That’s true, a standard can iof Coke is 330 ml I believe, and many people drink a lot more at a time. That table compares 250 ml of Coke to a 160 gram baked potato, and I bet most people would assume the Coke has the highest glycemic load. I’m not really trying to defend sucrose, as it is an easy way of consuming empty calories, it can rot your teeth and we are hard-wired to find eaing it pleasurable, a dangerous combination.

    I wonder if this comparison is only going to serve to scare her away from eating “real food” (fruits and vegetables of any kind).

    Robert O. Young claims that all fruit is bad, except for avocados, which I’m sure has nothing to do with him owning an avocado farm. I agree, putting a depressed teenage girl on a restrictive diet is a recipe for disaster.

  87. #87 herr doktor bimler
    July 24, 2012

    one has to do with “starving” tumors

    Cancer cells are well-known for waiting patiently in line for nutrients in the bloodstream if there is a shortage, and only absorbing what’s left after the body’s legitimate tissues have all taken what they require.

  88. #88 Krebiozen
    July 24, 2012

    THS,
    I find Dr. Moran’s website a good place to start in debunking alternative cancer treatment as many of the ones he addresses are basically about a raw food diet. Also check out ‘Alternative cancer cures: “unproven” or “disproven”?’ (PMID 15061600) and there is plenty of material on this blog and on sciencebasedmedicine about the clinical trial of Gonzalez’s cancer treatment which is about raw juices, enzyme supplements and coffee enemas, and proved to be 3 times worse than conventional therapy for pancreatic cancer.

    Humans have been eating cooked food for at least 250,000 years and we have undoubtedly adapted to it. Cooking makes the nutrients in food more easily accessible to our digestive system. A raw diet means spending your life either chewing or juicing and cleaning your juicer, neither of which seems very alluring to me, especially as there seems to be little evidence that it does any good. Even if I knew I was dying of cancer I would find more interesting ways to spend the last days of my life.

  89. #89 Krebiozen
    July 24, 2012

    Apologies for my usual incompetence at posting a link correctly first time. Dr. Moran’s website

  90. #90 Mrs Woo
    July 24, 2012

    @THS – it could be a lot of fun!

    Well, my mini-me isn’t exactly thrilled with chiropractors, so this could be helpful, depending on how it is approached. I just feel so frustrated. As a teenager a good cognitive behavioral therapist would be a wonderful asset – they could teach her how her emotions affect her thinking, what bad thinking is so she can recognize it, etc. (I often believe everyone should either read a book about it or be taught about it so they can recognize distorted thinking when they are thinking it). Instead her well-meaning parents, probably in part because of warnings about teenagers and anti-depressants, went looking for “alternative” at their mother’s favorite chiropractor.

    @Krebiozen – there was a patient with my illness advocating a raw foods juicing diet as a “cure” for this. She has abandoned it finally, about two years later. There are actually some anti-vegan/anti-raw foods juicing sites out there run by vegans who have ruined their health. They say that most raw foodies are cultists and follow it with a religious zeal, with any deviation from the diet equal to “sin” and those who are not following the lifestyle equal the “heathens” or similar status.

    It’s fascinating that “Essa” on the Protocel thread lived a lifestyle often marketed as being “anti-cancer” and developed cancer. You would think with that kind of reality setting in she would be a bit more skeptical of her woo instead of holding onto it all the more.

  91. #91 Krebiozen
    July 24, 2012

    Mrs. Woo,

    It’s fascinating that “Essa” on the Protocel thread lived a lifestyle often marketed as being “anti-cancer” and developed cancer.

    You would think that a lifestyle and diet that are supposed to cure cancer would at least be able to prevent it. It’s like Hulda Clarke (author of ‘The Cure For All Cancers’) dying of cancer. You would think it would make some people pause for thought.

    Has Mr. Woo bought into the Budwig cottage cheese and flaxseed oil stuff yet? I hope not as it’s revolting. I tried it for a while for reasons I don’t recall several years ago. Flaxseed oil is the same as linseed oil which I associate with window putty and cricket bats. It goes rancid if you look at it funny, and creeps out of a sealed bottle through the thread, filling your fridge with rancid green gunk.

  92. #92 Mrs Woo
    July 24, 2012

    Well, lucky for me Mr Woo does not have cancer, but he knows about the Budwig diet, Gerson therapy, and actually has a “Hulda Clark”-type zapper that he assures me kills viruses, bacteria, etc., as well as being able to cure cancer. ~shakes head~

    I looked at the thing (it requires one single nine-volt battery) and asked him how in the world such a small current could affect much of anything, at which point he attempted to assure me it was the fluctuating frequencies, etc. I think “The Cure for All Diseases” has been thrown in my direction at least once (along with a book or two by the illustrious DVM Joel Wallach) with the encouragement to “educate myself.”

    Right now I’m scanning bits of “Petrus Romanus: The Final Pope and the Antichrist Is Here” in my spare time – hubby wanted it because it was written by one of his favorite end times prophecy people. That is a heapin’ helping of conjecture, anti-Catholicism and general overactive and very creative imagination, but at least isn’t assuring me it can cure diabetes, cancer, Parkinson’s, MS, ALS, etc., etc., etc.

    Kind of fascinating watching people create “theories of everything” (not unlike PH).

  93. #93 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 24, 2012

    Well, my mini-me isn’t exactly thrilled with chiropractors, so this could be helpful, depending on how it is approached. I just feel so frustrated. As a teenager a good cognitive behavioral therapist would be a wonderful asset – they could teach her how her emotions affect her thinking, what bad thinking is so she can recognize it, etc.

    There is always the chance that a second-hand copy of “Feeling Good” by Dr. David Burns might fall into her possession. You know. Somehow.

  94. #94 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 24, 2012

    Most white men these days are unemployed and get murderous and rapey.It kinda figures though: men only socialize with other men, and it poisons their ability to connect emotionally with anyone who’s not just like them.

    I really, seriously hope that no one without serious mental illness actually thinks this describes reality.

  95. #95 Mrs Woo
    July 24, 2012

    Strangely, Antaeus, that was exactly what I’ve been considering! I think a lot of teenagers these days really need a copy of that. They end up getting so many “wants” met that they have no idea what “needs” are and struggle with serious issues regarding unmet expectations and how they feel about it…

  96. #96 Politicalguineapig
    July 24, 2012

    Anteaus: 1. I meant white guys under 30. Older men tend to be able to manage their hatred a bit more, unless they work in male-dominated areas like sports, construction or the Catholic Church. Then they start thinking everyone who’s not a full-grown male is basically just an object to be used or disposed of at will. And have you ever seen men willingly socializing with women? If they are, it’s only to attempt to get something out of the female friend.
    2. Well, considering how much male violence has been in the news lately- Aurora and River Falls being just two of many, many examples- I’m not keen on testing whether this is reality or not. Right now, it’s a fairly valid assumption.
    3. For the record, mild mental illness, and manageable social anxiety. Now could we avoid speculating on the state of my brain for the next 72 hours?

  97. #97 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 25, 2012

    Anteaus: 1. I meant white guys under 30. Older men tend to be able to manage their hatred a bit more, unless they work in male-dominated areas like sports, construction or the Catholic Church. Then they start thinking everyone who’s not a full-grown male is basically just an object to be used or disposed of at will. And have you ever seen men willingly socializing with women? If they are, it’s only to attempt to get something out of the female friend.

    I am flabbergasted. The bigotry you are displaying is horrible. I could tell you right away that you are wrong, that I am a male – white male, even – who willingly socializes with multiple female friends without any expectation of reward except enjoying their company. But obviously you think you have magical telepathic powers that make you an expert on what goes on in the mind of “white males”: how they’re all riddled with “hatred” and the only difference is whether they can “manage” it. Sure, you’re an expert. Just like the Westboro Baptist Church is an expert on the “gay agenda.”

    2. Well, considering how much male violence has been in the news lately- Aurora and River Falls being just two of many, many examples- I’m not keen on testing whether this is reality or not. Right now, it’s a fairly valid assumption.

    No, it’s not. It’s vicious bigotry which you’re trying to legitimize by taking advantage of the most recent tragedy. It’s bad enough when a jerk like Mike Adams or Gary Null tries to generalize from one person doing a horrible thing to a huge group such as “everyone taking psychiatric medication.” But you are actually acting worse, trying to generalize to half the planet. It is not “a fairly valid assumption” to tar people you’ve never met with such vicious, hate-filled stereotyping.

    3. For the record, mild mental illness, and manageable social anxiety. Now could we avoid speculating on the state of my brain for the next 72 hours?

    Do you even realize how grotesquely hypocritical it is for you suggest we “avoid speculating on the state of my brain” in the very same comment where you presume to look into the heads of people you’ve never met and deem them to have a psychopathic disregard for the lives of others just because they’re male and work in sports or in the Catholic Church??

  98. #98 thenewme
    July 25, 2012

    @Antaeus
    Wow. I’m flabbergasted too! I saw the first post and wondered if I had missed some sort of punch line or something, but now that I see the attempt at clarification, I’m left shaking my head!

    @PoliticalGuineaPig, I don’t even know what to say other than, as a woman myself, you’re so very wrong on so many levels.

  99. #99 Mrs Woo
    July 25, 2012

    @PoliticalGuineaPig – you’re asserting 50% of the human race is mostly only capable of violence, misogyny, etc. Do you believe that could in any possible way be accurate? You seem to be a very well-educated and intelligent person. Please understand I’ve had more than one bad experience myself, but not every experience has been that way.

    What about (I know this is just anecdote) the many boyfriends and/or male partners injured in the same shooting in Aurora putting girlfriends and/or siblings, etc., behind them/underneath them in hopes of sheltering them from the shooter’s bullets?

  100. #100 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    July 25, 2012

    Narcissist: “3. For the record, mild mental illness, and manageable social anxiety. Now could we avoid speculating on the state of my brain for the next 72 hours?”

    What f*cking brain?!

  101. #101 lilady
    July 25, 2012

    @politicalguineapig: We have *touched on* your distrust of male doctors before on this blog…but I never thought your *issues* with men (white or otherwise), was so deep-seated.

    I say this sincerely, as a woman who enjoys the company of men and women equally, you have insulted other posters here by your unfair stereotyping of men.

    You are in desperate need of professional help to resolve your many issues.

  102. #102 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    July 25, 2012

    oh – hang on … did i quote PGP thinking it was PH? (note the notion that it was a post by the narcissist).

    if so, i DO so profusely apologise …. i know there is a world of difference between PGP and PH.

    however, i think lilady is right.

  103. #103 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    July 25, 2012

    PGP: “Most white men these days are unemployed and get murderous and rapey.It kinda figures though: men only socialize with other men, and it poisons their ability to connect emotionally with anyone who’s not just like them.”

    Now I’m going to tear one off of you. A proverbial strip, that is.

    That statement is – and I can say this without a shadow of a doubt – complete and utter bullshite. I get the feeling that the mild mental ilness you claim is not so mild after all. And herein lies the different between you can the Narcissist: the shit messing up your thinking skills can be dealt with very effectively using cognitive behavioural therapy. we do not have anything useful at this point in time to deal with the narcissistic crap that lives in PH’s head.

  104. #104 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    July 25, 2012

    comment in moderation, deals with PGP’s comment about ‘most white men’.

  105. #105 Militant Agnostic
    July 25, 2012

    PG lost me with this one

    Most white men these days are unemployed

    There must be some terrible discrimination against white men going on that I am blissfully unaware of. About the only places around here that most men over or under 30 are unemployed are Indian Reservations.

  106. #106 Krebiozen
    July 25, 2012

    PGP,
    You are, of course, right to assert that most monsters are men, but to conclude that most men are monsters is an overgeneralization. You have my sincere sympathy for whatever experiences you had in the past that led you to that conclusion.

  107. #107 Beamup
    July 25, 2012

    PGP doesn’t get any sympathy from me at all. Such ludicrously stupid bigotry is too far beyond the pale.

    Not quite as bad as my high school Government teacher, though. PGP at least isn’t actively advocating for all men to be killed (except for a few selected sperm donors, and them only long enough to work out how to reproduce without them).

  108. #108 Denice Walter
    July 25, 2012

    OK, people form stereotypes that usually have at least *a bit* of foundation in experience- seems that women have widely divergent views about men *in general* and vice versa. Can we explain these differences?

    We also know that girls’ path in life- success and self-confidence- can be greatly influenced by her early relationship with her father and other males in the family ( as well as later experiences in adolescence). We can’t change these early events in our lives.

    I happen to come from a family** whose men encouraged and supported me while they praised me to the skies. My father once told me-” You’re just like me!” and he was rather fond of himself. When I was quite young, I heard that a woman who lived nearby was worried that her next baby- soon to arrive- might be a girl because she already had two and her husband would be very angry ( I overheard adults discuss her dilemma). Later, I asked my father if he was disappointed that I wasn’t a boy and- without missing a beat, he replied that I was EXACTLY what he wanted.( You can’t buy press like that!) And if I were a boy I might be like George- my cousin who my father particularly disliked.

    Obviously, I have very different views about *men in general*: later experience tempered my views when I learned that all guys weren’t as terrific as my many male cousins. I mostly get along with men. They even like to play tennis with me. Shocking, isn’t it?

    So early experiences might be strengthened by later ones in school etc- a person who had been treated badly might see a trend that men are indeed miserable creatures. Selective attention can occur, even WITHOUT our intent ( re cognitive factors in stereotyping). If this general idea is not corrected and made more moderate by intervening events, attitudes may persist. Especially if men are avoided.

    Right now, in general, men may have more social power and confidence than women, so perhaps they might be more likely to exercise their true nastiness while women might be more cautious and timid. That’s slowly changing. Eventually all the horrible people will feel absolutely free to express their inner b#tch, although men might always have the edge in physical aggression. And I do believe that *some* men may resent women’s advances. We even see that here @ RI (trolls).

    **. nearly as white as is humanly possible alto’ many of the cousins married diversely.

  109. #109 thenewme
    July 25, 2012

    @Denice,
    My anecdotal experience is much different from yours. I grew up with fairly little male encouragement, support, or influence. I agree that life experiences color our outlook, but to take our personal experience and generalize as broadly and in such a hate-filled and misogynistic way as PGP has done, goes wayyyy beyond that.

  110. #110 Denice Walter
    July 25, 2012

    People DO over-generalise- cognitive factors involved may account for *some* prejudice- and this isn’t the end of the world. Attitudes can be changed.

    I knew a psychologist who treated one highly specific unrealistic belief: people who believe that flying in a plane will result in a crash and their death, despite evidence to the contrary: it is highly unlikely that a commercial flight will crash- cars are much more dangerous. He was very successful and made a great deal of money because business people, whose careers depended upon flying, consulted with him.

  111. #111 Krebiozen
    July 25, 2012

    Generalization is one of those abilities, like pattern recognition, that have made us clever apes so successful on this planet. Like pattern recognition, it makes us susceptible to error, like the correlation = causation and other logical fallacies that we are all prey to. We also seem to generalize more from negative experiences than positive ones – better safe than sorry seems to be our cognitive default mode.

  112. #112 Denice Walter
    July 25, 2012

    The important issue, in my view, is that when people have an extreme attitude there is *some* basis in reality: early experience compounded by later events- sometimes the *experience* might even indirect via tutelage ( e.g. a racist had no real experiences but is taught hate). Children don’t integrate positive and negative attributes well or weigh risk/ benefits : that’s a skill that usually develops in adolescence.

    Attitudes might be based a string of unfortunate instances. Our beliefs aren’t entirely our choice but are constructed through our social milieu including later avoidance. Unless a person is truly psychotic, I wouldn’t guess that their beliefs are created out of whole cloth- even those delusions would be based in physical and social reality but to a much more limited extent: e.g. a guy believing that the goverment is spying on him might be based on seeing a real person who hangs around outside his door for entirely different reasons.

  113. #113 Mrs Woo
    July 25, 2012

    I wonder what happens in 72 hours?

    It is unfortunate that Politicalguineapig (PC) struggles with this. All of us probably have places, either that we’re willing to admit to or not, where we, too, have irrational beliefs. In my own life I’ve had some really bad experiences here and there with men that have left me completely confused afterwards, because I couldn’t see anything in my behavior that invited the aggression I experienced. Still can’t.

    However, I blamed it on those individuals who behaved badly, not men as a whole. Maybe I am lucky to have known good men and PGP has not had that kind of luck. Further, PGP mentions hanging out on some feminist, etc., blogs. I’ve seen some Womens’ Studies in some colleges that are one step removed from advocating the elimination of all males except for a few kept in captivity for breeding purposes. They quietly imply a history of nothing but repression and violence towards women (and children, sometimes) from the dawn of civilization, insinuating that it is maleness that is the root of all evil in the world.

    I think those of us who are speaking with empathy for PGP have developed a sense of friendship with her, etc. She is “one of our own,” not a troll looking to stir up trouble. I will admit to being a little concerned about driving her away with condemnation. We’re individuals, and I would suspect all of us have our little “quirks” where our opinions don’t reflect reality perfectly. That’s another reason why we have blinding, etc., in clinical trials – so our own perceptions don’t color reality too much.

  114. #114 Rose
    July 25, 2012

    Well, once more this is anecdote but I have 2 white sons under thirty who are not unemployed. Neither are they murderous and rapey. I believe that last statement to be true but I am not sure what rapey is.

  115. #115 Mrs Woo
    Pulling sticky seed pods out of a lab/pyr mix's fur
    July 25, 2012

    @Krebiozen – very true. I regularly find myself making generalizations and stating them, then kicking myself because I know that almost any generalization is going to have exceptions that make it “untrue.” I also know, though, that it is a way our brain functions, period. We can’t exactly shut it off, but we should be willing to challenge them every time we find ourselves thinking them.

  116. #116 thenewme
    July 25, 2012

    @MrsWoo
    Re: “We’re individuals, and I would suspect all of us have our little “quirks” where our opinions don’t reflect reality perfectly.”

    I completely agree with that! I have to say, though, that PGP’s violently offensive and hate-filled accusations seems to me more than a mere quirk. It’s truly disturbing, and took me by complete surprise since I’ve appreciated so many of her posts and agreed with a lot of them. That level of extremism is truly concerning.

    @PoliticalGuineaPig – please do get some real help.

  117. #117 lilady
    July 25, 2012

    I can only reiterate what most of the posters have stated. PGP has been posting here for quite some time. I *believe* she was unaware of her lack of abilities, to understand how the Deranged Troll PH, was *baiting her* and how PH’s constant baiting berating tactics wore her down.

    It still does not change the fact, that PGP does need to explore those issues of distrust of men, with a trained counselor.

    I hope she is willing to take our advice…it is offered with the very best of intentions for her emotional state. I think it is best that we all end this conversation and allow PGP to think about her *issues*. I look forward to the time when she comes back to post here…perhaps under a different “nym.

  118. #118 Mrs Woo
    July 25, 2012

    Lilady is as wise as ever.

  119. #119 Denice Walter
    July 25, 2012

    To play devil’s advocate here, I venture that sometimes people who want to seek out help first try it out more anonymously via the internet or a phone helpline prior to taking the bigger step of seeking face-to-face situations with a counsellor or concerned friend to discuss issues. Occasionally, this might provide impetus to start re-thinking attitudes.

    Rome wasn’t built in a day.

  120. #120 herr doktor bimler
    July 25, 2012

    And have you ever seen men willingly socializing with women? If they are, it’s only to attempt to get something out of the female friend.

    I plead guilty, if the “something” I am trying to get includes “intelligent conversation”.

  121. #121 lilady
    July 25, 2012

    Doktor Bimler: The RI ladies *know* exactly why you hang out here 🙂

  122. #122 ken
    July 27, 2012

    Off topic but…….Orac supports fluoridation -well FYI
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/24/idUS127920+24-Jul-2012+PRN20120724

  123. #123 Krebiozen
    July 27, 2012

    ken,
    Did you read the paper? It is available on line. We know that fluoride is a neurotoxin at high doses; but prevents cavities at low doses. The important question is whether the amount in fluoridated water is sufficient to cause developmental neurotoxicity. This systematic review and meta-analysis does not answer that question. Fluoridated water contains 0.7-1.2 mg/L fluoride and this study looked at areas where natural drinking water fluoride concentrations are up to 11.5 mg/L. You did know that in many places drinking water naturally contains much higher concentrations of fluoride than there is in fluoridated water, didn’t you?

  124. #124 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 27, 2012

    Wow, a press release from the NYS Council Opposed to Fluoridation has bad things to say about fluoridation! Who’da thunk it?? Gee, maybe next they’ll issue a press release based on the MSDS of fluoride!

    You’re right, Ken. It is off-topic. Also you forgot to mention stupid. Are you going to expect us to believe that you have never once in the whole of your life been introduced to the concept which demolishes this press release, namely “the dose makes the poison”? Ah, so you have encountered it before? Good, then add “dishonest” to “off-topic and stupid”.

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