Respectful Insolence

Naturopathy is at least 99% woo. That has to be said at the outset. Naturopaths might brag about all the science they take in naturopathy school, claiming that it’s as much as MDs take. Even if that were true, the question is not how many hours of basic science naturopaths take, but rather what’s taught in those hours and, more importantly, what’s taught in the clinical hours. For instance, given that you can’t have naturopathy without homeopathy, it implies that what’s taught in basic science classes in naturopathy school allows room for the incredible magical quackery that is homeopathy to be not just plausible but a standard of naturopathic care. As long as that is true, naturopaths are deluding themselves (and deceiving the public) when they claim that naturopathy is based on science. Indeed, the only complaint I’ve ever heard from naturopaths about homeopathy is that it’s either too complicated or that naturopathy schools teach it wrong, not that homeopathy is superstitious thinking based on ancient principals of sympathetic magic.

Of course, it’s not just homeopathy that makes naturopathy by and large a hodge-podge of beliefs and treatments that range from the mundane science-based, such as recommending the same things that “conventional doctors” recommend, such as losing weight and exercising, to the questionable, such as as recommending all manner of supplements, to hokum like traditional Chinese medicine, acupuncture, and various forms of “energy healing,” to pure quackery, like homeopathy. When taken as a whole, naturopathy is a system of medicine that fetishizes anything it views as “natural” and as a result is heavily weighted towards pseudoscience and quackery.

All of this is why one of the more disturbing developments in quackery lately is the move for naturopaths to market themselves as primary care practitioners. It is a role for whyc they are woefully untrained., their delusions otherwise notwithstanding. Unfortunately, they are having some success legislatively, not only gaining licensure in a number of states but gaining prescribing privileges and the right to do primary care in some. They do through a combination of savvy marketing, appeals to “health freedom,” and, of course, the co-opting of science.

Once again, when it comes to trying to convince people that naturopathy is good medicine and that, contrary to reality, “integrative medicine” doesn’t represent “integrating” quackery with real medicine, that wretched hive of scum and quackery, The Huffington Post, excels. So does our old friend John Weeks, propagandist for pseudoscientific medicine of all stripes and, above all, “integrating” quackery into science-based medicine. This time around, he’s done it in an article, How Naturopathic Doctors Are Proving the Value of Integrative Medicine. In it, Weeks tries to argue that not only isn’t naturopathy science-based, but that integrating naturopathy with science-based medicine improves outcomes.

I’m not impressed.

I’ll show you what I mean. Weeks starts by seemingly magnanimously thanking conventional medicine for providing the scientific basis for the Textbook of Natural Medicine the consumer-focused counterpart the Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine , because many of the studies they referenced were “gleaned from conventional medical literature.” No doubt. Of course, it’s how such bodies of studies are interpreted where naturopaths fail, inevitably ascribing near magical powers any positive evidence they could cherry pick in support of their favored woo. However, I suppose that, in a way, it is rather chivalrous of Weeks to give credit where credit is due in doing the research they could not and that they could use for their own propagandistic purposes.

Unfortunately, it’s only a prelude to patting oneself on the back for “paying conventional medicine back”:

Now it looks like present day naturopathic researchers may be paying back this debt — at least as far as their medical doctor colleagues in integrative medicine are concerned.

A recently-published study of naturopathic treatment for diabetes and a review of 13 outcomes studies of “whole practice” naturopathic treatment each support the value in the multiple modality, individualized approach that is also favored by integrative M.D.s.

The study Weeks is touting is this one, Adjunctive naturopathic care for type 2 diabetes: patient-reported and clinical outcomes after one year. I am underwhelmed. First, it’s a small study, only 40 patients with type 2 diabetes, a hemoglobin A1c level between 7.5% adn 9.5%, and at least one other cardiovascular risk factor, such as hyptertension. Second, and more importantly, it’s for all intents and purposes uncontrolled. Yes, there is a control group, but it’s a more or less useless control group. Basically, it’s a control group (the “usual care cohort”) constructed from the medical records of patients who, we are told, were potentially eligible to join the “adjunctive naturopathic care” (ANC) cohort but were not invited. Although the study was prospective, there was no randomization, and the groups were not treated as close to identically as possible. Basically, this was an observational cohort study in which one cohort was never seen by the investigators. Thus, the ANC group got a letter, came to see the naturopath several times, and knew they were taking part in a study.

Also, contrary to what was claimed in the abstract, the ANC and usual care cohorts had a number of notable differences. The ANC cohort was younger, had a higher A1c (and thus more room for improvement), and lower blood pressure. Interestingly, more of the ANC group used metformin (80% versus 20%), which suggested that they had more severe diabetes and, therefore, more room for improvement:

Use of oral medications and insulin increased in the ANC cohort during the 12-month observation period, with three patients starting on sulfonylureas, three patients starting on metformin and six patients starting on basal insulin. The total number of prescription refills also increased in the ANC cohort on average during the observation period from 4.7 ± 2.2 per year during the year prior to baseline compared to 5.9 ± 2.7 per year during the ANC observation period, whereas refills did not change in the usual care cohort (i.e., 4.2 ± 3.0 refills/year during the prior year compared to 4.0 ± 3.2 refills during the ANC observation period).

Did these patients get worse and require more medication or was their compliance improved? Who knows? If it was improved compliance, did it have anything to do with naturopathy? Given that the control group wasn’t treated the same way or observed in any way other than by reviewing medical records, improvements observed in the ANC group could well be due to the study effect, also sometimes called the Hawthorne effect. This is a well-known confounder of clinical trials in which subjects improve or modify an aspect of their behavior that’s being experimentally measured simply because they know they are being studied, not because the experimental manipulation worked. In fact, if I were intentionally trying to maximize the Hawthorne effect, I would be hard-pressed to come up with a better study design than this one. Consistent with this, although there were a lot of statistically significant improvements in hard clinical parameters (such as HbA1c) at six months, by twelve months the observed improvements were no longer significant while the subjective measures remained improved.

In other words, this study shows little. Interestingly, there were also adverse events reported in the ANC group, nearly all due to adverse reactions to supplements.

Next up on the quackademic medicine hit parade directed by weeks is a poster presentation. I kid you not. He’s referencing a poster presentation:

The poster presentation was entitled “Systematic Review of Outcomes Studies of Outcomes Studies of Whole Practice Naturopathic Medicine.” The poster team, led by Erica Oberg, N.D., MPH and Carlo Calabrese, N.D., MPH, acknowledged that “formal whole practice studies in naturopathic medicine are a recent phenomenon.”*

All of the naturopathic studies were on chronic conditions. “Some degree of clinical benefit” was found in each, “sometimes quite strong.” Eight of the 13 used quality of life measures with all showing improvements. While noting many “methodological weaknesses,” the team concluded that the review “provides evidence of effectiveness and cost savings in chronic diseases in the observed or validly-modeled practice of trained and licensed naturopathic doctors.”

Here’s a description of the study. You know what they say about meta-analyses: Garbage in, garbage out. Oddly enough Weeks didn’t link to the actual poster; so I will. It’s right here. It’s even more underwhelming than the first study. It pools twelve studies of widely varying conditions. Given how many different conditions were examined (tendonitis, temporomandibular joint problems, low back pain, hypertension, multiple sclerosis, and menopausal symptoms, among others) I find it hard to believe how one could legitimately pool the results in any meaningful way, much less to conclude that naturopathic interventions are beneficial and cost-effective. This is particularly true given that only six of the studies were actually randomized clinical trials; the rest were observational or retrospective.

None of this stops Weeks from exulting:

Such research is of most value to real world decision makers. The aim is not to show that X therapy caused Y response under controlled conditions. Rather, these help stakeholders — whether employers, individuals, hospitals, or accountable care organization leaders — understand what may happen if a given population of patients is cared for by a set of integrative practitioners. These specifically help answer whether naturopathic doctors will be helpful if included in care teams or benefit plans.

Evidence like this will answer no such question. It’s too low quality to answer much of any question. But this is the sort of evidence what Weeks and the naturopaths whose “integration” with science-based medicine he promotes use to make their case, which makes his claim that soon doctors will be soon borrowing the results of research carried out by naturopaths for anything.

Naturopaths and their apologists trumpet that naturopathic care should be “integrated” into conventional medicine because their nostrums add something unique and valuable. In reality, anything science-based that they add is nothing that physicians don’t know already anyway (eat a good diet, get enough sleep, and exercise). What they add that is unique is something that shouldn’t be “integrated” with conventional medicine: magical thinking, pseudoscience, and quackery. To paraphrase Mark Crislip, “integrating” feces with ice cream doesn’t make the ice cream better; it just contaminates it with feces.

Comments

  1. #1 StrangerInAStrangeLand
    June 15, 2012

    It is “funny” how the ScienceBlogs website choose its random adverts. Currently the ad I see is about “Shockingly accurate insights” from a psychic (Norah) who offers free readings if you click on her ad. Maybe Orac can somehow persuade the Powers that be not to allow such ads that go so completely against what this site is about?

  2. #2 Mu
    June 15, 2012

    Maybe Orac needs to add a new Friday column “weird stuff Google adds served us this week”.
    As for ND licensing, I’m still hoping the trial lawyers will put an end to it. Just too much potential for serious conditions not recognized or treated with magic water to not be seen as an income source.

  3. #3 Orac
    June 15, 2012

    I actually missed the psychic ad. Never saw it, fortunately for my blood pressure.

    Personally, I used to be irritated by the ads, but these days I’m amused to think that advertisers are paying money, however little per click-through, to appear on blogs where the readers are, for the most part, completely hostile to their nostrums. Sometimes things do go beyond the pale and I complain, but as long as we use an ad service that uses search terms to match ads to content, this sort of thing will happen from time to time. We’re not alone, either. I’ve noticed the same thing at other skeptical blogs, including Freethoughtblogs and even Skepchick. Basically, these days I pick my battles, complaining about the most egregious offenses (ads for homeopathy, for instance) and leaving the rest alone. It’s an unending struggle, as I’ve found out over the years. As soon as the Powers That Be block one ad, another woo ad appears.

    Sometimes I even have fun with it, intentionally sprinkling my posts with words that I think will bring a certain kind of add and then seeing if I’m right.

    But enough about advertising. Let’s stick with the content of this post. I would prefer that this thread not be derailed by a discussion of Sb advertising policy.

  4. #4 Eric Lund
    June 15, 2012

    The total number of prescription refills also increased in the ANC cohort on average during the observation period from 4.7 ± 2.2 per year during the year prior to baseline compared to 5.9 ± 2.7 per year during the ANC observation period

    The change is about half the quoted error bar. Either their error calculation is off, or this change is not statistically significant. And given the study design issues mentioned in the post, these options are not mutually exclusive.

    Stranger @0709: The pre-NG incarnation of ScienceBlogs had a similar issue; I recall one post in which Orac complained about a Suzanne Somers ad appearing together with a previous post applying his Respectful Insolence to whatever woo Ms. Somers was pushing that year. Or search the archives for mentions of Asian mail-order brides, which were advertised along with posts opposing the practice. It’s a known long-standing issue with Google Ads.

  5. #5 lilady
    June 15, 2012

    At the risk of incurring Orac’s wrath for a silly post…

    Orac’s link to Jann Bellamy’s blog on SBM details new legislation in Vermont that has allowed Naturopaths to be designated as Primary Care Physicians…for insurance purposes.

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/legislative-alchemy-2012-5/

    “Unfortunately, a much-needed counterweight to Vermont’s expansion of naturopathic practice did not make it out of committee. A bill would have required a state pharmacologist to approve the naturopathic formulary. Alarmingly, the current formulary includes colloidal silver preparations, to treat eye infections, and silver, which can be administered intravenously, both dangerous substances which no physician in his right mind would ever use as a treatment.”

    Which immediately brought to mind this…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0aT0GXW8jw

    ( I promise to post a serious comment, shortly)

  6. #6 Dangerous Bacon
    June 15, 2012

    Are there any naturopaths whose practices are not riddled with pseudoscience and quackery?

    For a case in point, I give you John Ruhland N.D., whose website notes that he has taught at Bastyr University (an ND school which prides itself on research). This guy promotes homeopathy, “toxin” removal, treating “yeast overgrowth”, “alternative perspectives on causes and treatments of viral infections such as Hepatitis and AIDS”, and “a comprehensive look at alternatives to vaccination.”

    Quite the collection of woo, plus evident denialist nonsense about AIDS and antivax foolishness.

    Oh, and he’s into coffee enemas (at least for his patients). His rationale is brilliant:

    “Coffee enemas are a good treatment for elimination of toxins. During WWII, the German army had run out of pain killers and used coffee enemas to successfully reduce pain. These two facts provide the rationale for their use in advanced chronic diseases.”

    Remember, you must use only organically-grown ground coffee, NO INSTANT!”

    ht_p://drruhland.com/

    I’ve seen the bit about the Nazis using coffee enemas for pain. Aside from the aptness of this “treatment” (“You vill talk, or it’s more Folgers up the butt for you“), is there any evidence to back up the fantasy that German medics, once they ran out of morphine, carried coffee enema kits to successfully treat pain from battlefield injuries?

  7. #7 jane
    June 15, 2012

    It’s hard for those who actually read the research that’s published on medicinal plants to dismiss all of TCM as “hokum” when one traditional recipe after another after another shows efficacy in double-blind placebo-controlled trials. It must pain you to see so many scientists ignoring the dictates of the great god Science by testing such quackery, far less having the temerity to publish their unacceptable results. (I am sure you will respond that ancient Chinese physicians believed in qi, which doesn’t exist, and therefore all herbal remedies discovered by them must be Worthless. Since the ancient Greeks et al. who discovered opium believed in humors, please let us know when you stop prescribing opiates in order to apply this criterion in a culturally unbiased manner.)

    One nitpicky point: I wouldn’t shriek too much about the fact that a web article cites a poster abstract of research too newly completed to have been published yet. (This one is from a May 2012 conference, so if it were really important, which it doesn’t seem to be, it would be “breaking news.”) Even in scientific writing in many fields, it is considered acceptable to cite an abstract under such circumstances, rather than fail to mention someone else’s relevant work. Of course, you point out that it is “work in progress” or a “preliminary report.” Half the news articles on MedPage Today tout the latest pro-intervention results from presentations at conferences, so I will not easily be convinced that public discussions of unpublished research are verboten in medicine.

    FWIW, I pretty much share your opinion of naturopaths. The average naturopathic graduate knows less about physiology and pharmacology than an MD and less about herbal medicine than a traditional herbalist or shaman who’s been practicing for more than a few years. I think it is because they waste so much of their time studying genuinely dubious stuff like homeopathy and iridology, ending up jacks of all trades and masters of none. Worse, I have encountered a couple who do not realize this to be the case and think that the fact they have a sheepskin with “Doctor” on it proves they know all there is to be known about certain subjects.

  8. #8 Beamup
    June 15, 2012

    It’s hard for those who actually read the research that’s published on medicinal plants to dismiss all of TCM as “hokum” when one traditional recipe after another after another shows efficacy in double-blind placebo-controlled trials.

    [citations needed] that it’s “one traditional recipe after another.” Anyway, what you describe is a completely standard part of scientific medicine (albeit with a vastly lower success rate than you imply), called pharmacognosy. It doesn’t validate TCM in the slightest that on occasion it gets lucky; without doing the science there’s no way to tell which times were lucky and which weren’t!

    It must pain you to see so many scientists ignoring the dictates of the great god Science by testing such quackery, far less having the temerity to publish their unacceptable results.

    As mentioned, completely standard scientific medicine. Nobody here has the least problem with it so long as it’s done competently and honestly.

    One nitpicky point: I wouldn’t shriek too much about the fact that a web article cites a poster abstract of research too newly completed to have been published yet.

    Poster abstracts are grossly insufficient to hold the weight placed on it by the article Orac is discussing. At best your argument amounts to “but, but, but, it MIGHT turn out to be accurate!”

    Even in scientific writing in many fields, it is considered acceptable to cite an abstract under such circumstances, rather than fail to mention someone else’s relevant work. Of course, you point out that it is “work in progress” or a “preliminary report.”

    Precisely. You DON’T use it as the foundation to supposedly justify an entire profession.

  9. #9 johnV
    June 15, 2012

    “FWIW, I pretty much share your opinion of naturopaths. ”

    And a broken clock is right twice a day.

  10. #10 Denice Walter
    June 15, 2012

    Hey brothers and sisters, what do the NDs need all that research for anyway- they have the gift of spirit, life energy, vision, emotionalism and – above all- ESSENCE, to guide them

    I hereby postulate Walter’s Law- which states-

    The woo-ier the woo, the more it shall be reliant upon spiritual, religious or ultra-mundane explication.

  11. #11 Chemmomo
    Land Without Preview
    June 15, 2012

    Anyone else notice that “a possible adverse reaction to a dietary supplement” and “a possible adverse reaction to iron supplementation” were reported in the study? I thought admitting that was against the party line (supplements never have side effects! They’re natural!).

  12. #12 palindrom
    June 15, 2012

    Denice @11:24 — Again, with the essence.

    Women uh… women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh… I do not avoid women, Mandrake.

  13. #13 Denice Walter
    June 15, 2012

    @ palindrom:

    Of course, because women have innate powers of *intuition* and can *sense* subtile presences

    Now, I’d better duck to avoid the airborne projectiles aimed in my general direction…
    I was JOKING.

  14. #14 tgobbi
    June 15, 2012

    Orac: “All of this is why one of the more disturbing developments in quackery lately is the move for naturopaths to market themselves as primary care practitioners. It is a role for whyc they are woefully untrained., their delusions otherwise notwithstanding.”

    For a moment there I thought I was reading about the push, several years ago, when the “doctors” of chiropractic were beginning to push their putative bona fides as primary care physicians. Which ones are more unqualified – the DCs or the NDs?

    I’ve challenged a few chiros about their belief that they’re really as qualified as medical doctors to serve as entry level physicians. The typical response is indignation! I’m sure it’ll be the same with the naturopaths.

  15. #15 Elly
    June 15, 2012

    “It’s hard for those who actually read the research that’s published on medicinal plants to dismiss all of TCM as “hokum” when one traditional recipe after another after another shows efficacy in double-blind placebo-controlled trials.”

    There are several problems with this statement:

    1. There are comparatively few rigorous clinical trials of various herbal extracts and traditional medicinal preparations that use human subjects… most such studies are done in cell cultures or small animal models. In addition, many of these studies are conducted in the country that the traditional medical approach was developed. Experimenter bias is a real issue: I cannot think of any Chinese study on traditional herbal medicines, for example, that has questioned or challenged the notion that the preparation-in-question worked as claimed. Rather, the m.o. is to take the agent (or an extract of it), add it to various cell/tissue cultures, observe some reaction (not surprising, since herbs contain biologically-active compounds), and conclude that the observed reaction supports the traditional use – badda bing, badda boom. I have yet to see a negative study of this kind – and I’ve looked at quite a few over the years.

    Point being, you can’t just “read the research” on traditional medicinal plants in a vacuum. Some knowledge of real science and a healthy dose of skepticism is needed to assess the value of what you read.

    2. It is not hard to design studies which essentially “stack the deck” in favor of the desired conclusion… and these are the types that the supplement/natural products industry favors (when it funds studies at all vs. cherry picking positive studies from PubMed).

    3. Something may indeed work better than a placebo, but this does not tell us how it may stack up against other treatments (even herbal ones). This leads to tremendous confusion over what the “best” approach might be for a given condition.

    4. Most studies on herbals/traditional medicines (even those with human subjects) are generally small and relatively short-term. Safety studies are in short supply; ditto those looking at how such compounds are metabolized and excreted. Thus, practitioners “prescribing” such nostrums have less insight and information on potential interactions and adverse effects.

    5. Having read a lot of research on medicinal plants, I certainly don’t dismiss them as “hokum,” per se. Many natural compounds from traditional medicinal plants have been integrated into prescription meds, after all. What I do dismiss as “hokum,” however, is the irresponsible use of (typically) preliminary and incomplete research by inadequately-educated “experts” to recommend treatments.

  16. #16 Andreas Johansson
    June 15, 2012

    (supplements never have side effects! They’re natural!)

    You can tell because they look indistinguishible from the unnatural concoctions of Big Pharma.

    I think I shall start bigstickopathy. The sticks will be unarguably natural, and have a 100% success rate at keeping the doctor away (no guarantees about undertakers).

  17. #17 G
    June 15, 2012

    I once got into it online–I really do try not to, you know, but I just couldn’t help it that time–with someone who was trained in the bach Flower Essences. She was *sure* that since she scored well on her studies, that she knew better than I did, even though I was pointing out that what she was saying had no scientific meaning whatsoever. She studied it, therefore she knew it, therefore I was wrong. Nothing I could say would shake her certainty that since it was written down and she had studied it, that she knew it was true.

    Studying does no good if what you’re studying is bogus in the first place. Naturopaths “study” as much science as an MD? Suuuuure.

  18. #18 JGC
    June 15, 2012

    It’s hard for those who actually read the research that’s published on medicinal plants to dismiss all of TCM as “hokum” when one traditional recipe after another after another shows efficacy in double-blind placebo-controlled trials.

    At which point the active ingredient or ingredients will be isolated, their molecular structure elucidated, analogs synthesized to investigate structure and function, lead compounds nominated, etc., all the way through Phase I, II and III clinical trials and FDA/EMEA approval for marketing.

    None of this represents science embracing ‘woo’: just business as usual.

    How else did you think we came up with aspirin, Taxol, digitalis, etc.?

  19. #19 DKD
    June 15, 2012

    “I’ve seen the bit about the Nazis using coffee enemas for pain. Aside from the aptness of this “treatment” (“You vill talk, or it’s more Folgers up the butt for you“), is there any evidence to back up the fantasy that German medics, once they ran out of morphine, carried coffee enema kits to successfully treat pain from battlefield injuries?”

    Dangerous Bacon @ 10:24

    I don’t know anything about coffee enemas, but anyone with any real knowledge of WWII can identify this one as a myth. During the war, coffee was completely unavailable in German-held territory, and therefore could not have been used as an enema or for any other purpose.

  20. #20 Alan Kellogg
    A few time zones east of tomorrow
    June 15, 2012

    It’s not enough to do research, it helps to do research right.

  21. #21 Mojo
    June 16, 2012

    Just spotted this: .

    Parents who choose not to vaccinate their children using conventional immunisation techniques should not be penalised according to an Orange naturopath. Yvette McRae said homeopathic immunisation is more effective then modern medicine and is harmless.

  22. #22 Mojo
    June 16, 2012

    Sorry, messed up the formatting there (please can we have the preview function back?). There should have been a link to the story:

    Vaccination rule a sore point for some

    Parents who choose not to vaccinate their children using conventional immunisation techniques should not be penalised according to an Orange naturopath. Yvette McRae said homeopathic immunisation is more effective then modern medicine and is harmless.

  23. #23 palindrom
    June 16, 2012

    mojo @839 — To my amazement, the five or so comments that the story had attracted were all downright scornful of the homeopathic vaccinator, and in some cases berated the paper for giving her space. No me-too-woo.

  24. #24 Pariedolius
    Sonoma County, Tingling Heart of the Axis of Me-ville.™
    June 16, 2012

    Jane who is new to our ways . . .

    First, let me say that is one fine immitation of Cartman’s mom.

    Flattery aside, do try actually reading the opinion of our host (as well as many of his minions) as pertains to pharmacognosy. We all know that plants contain chemical compounds. We know that they can be beneficial. That our host prescribes Taxol for some of his patients and that it was isolated from the Pacific Yew tree is not a shocking revelation to any of us. Purity and dosage as relates to herbs as medicine is a whole ‘nother smoke, however.

    Our distilled and concentrated disdain for TCM is derived from the fact that, as a system, TCM is based on superstition and bullshit. That doesn’t make all of the observations of generations of herbalists totally wrong, but it puts everything under suspicion. Let’s not forget the ancient wisdom of the widespread use of aristolochia for stomach ailments, or wiping entire species off the globe in a pathetic attempt to help their marks achieve better boners.

    So here’s some respectfully insolent advice. When visiting a new website, try to get the general lay of the land before clutching those lovely Mikimotos, embarrassingly spewing forth the tired, old “god of science” trope, compounding that with a false equivalency or two, and finally igniting a small army of strawmen. It will save Eric so much humiliation. And speaking of Eric, see if you can get him to lay off the Cheezy-Poofs™, talk about childhood obesity . . .

  25. #25 Dangerous Bacon
    June 16, 2012

    G: “Studying does no good if what you’re studying is bogus in the first place. Naturopaths “study” as much science as an MD? Suuuuure.”

    Maybe they do. And maybe the claims about chiros’ voluminous basic science coursework are true as well. It doesn’t mean much though, when so much of the rest of their training is spent denying and obfuscating the principles and evidence they are supposedly exposed to during their “education”.

    For instance, one website dealing with naturopathy claims that students’ coursework includes biochemistry.

    Anyone who takes a biochemistry course should have a basic understanding of acid-base homeostasis. That is not the case for naturopaths like the one who stated the following:

    “Maintaining high alkaline in the body is the basic fundamental of health. When your alkaline is high, your body, mind, and spirit function on healthy levels. When your body begins to show signs of high acidity, your body becomes vulnerable to disease and illness. Gray hair is an indicator of significant stress and a strong sign of acidity in the body. Alkalizing your body is the best thing you can do to have optimal health. ”

    ht_p://www.naturopath.ca/alkaline-vs-acid-012386.php

    (again, the recommendation for “plenty of laughter” is gratifyingly supplied by the website itself)

  26. #26 Militant Agnostic
    Ghost Lake
    June 16, 2012

    Pariedolius

    Our distilled and concentrated disdain for TCM is derived from the fact that, as a system, TCM is based on superstition and bullshit.

    And this superstition and bullshit has brought some animal species to the brink of extinction and resulted in great cruelty to other animals such as bears being used for bile extraction. By championing TCM, Jane is encouraging this barbarism.

  27. #27 jane
    June 16, 2012

    Let’s see, what is the sacred term of art to be employed in response to such a comment? Oh yeah … STRAW MAN.

  28. #28 Scottynuke
    June 16, 2012

    I believe Jane misspelled pharmacognosy…

  29. #29 Militant Agnostic
    June 16, 2012

    Jane it would be a straw man if I accused you of claiming Rhino Horn, Tiger Penis, Bear Bile etc were effective and endorsing the use of these remedies. I do not say this. However, you are definitely claiming “one traditional recipe after another after another shows efficacy in double-blind placebo-controlled trials” which definitely implies that the bulk of TCM is valid rather than the bulk of it being superstition and bullshit. I was however pointing out (as did Dangerous Bacon) what are the consequences of such credulity.

  30. #30 Pariedolius
    June 17, 2012

    And it’s still based on bullshit “elements” like fire, earth, wood, metal and water. What? No humours and miasmas? Let’s not forget unintentionally hilarious concepts like flavors, zang, fu, senses and tissue. Oh, and let’s see some citations and links to those studies.

  31. #31 Narad
    June 17, 2012

    Let’s not forget unintentionally hilarious concepts like flavors, zang, fu, senses and tissue.

    Dagnabit, I thought I came up with ‘zang’ all on my own.

  32. #32 Militant Agnostic
    June 17, 2012

    Narad

    Dagnabit, I thought I came up with ‘zang’ all on my own.

    There seems to be some sort corollary to Poe’s Law with CAM. It is nearly impossible for a skeptic to come up with a silly concept or phrase that has not been previously used by an altie.

  33. #33 Militant Agnostic
    In the land of no preview
    June 17, 2012

    The inset paragraph is me.

  34. #34 DLC
    deep in the stacks of history books
    June 17, 2012

    Dangerous Bacon : Re German coffee enemas.
    It was during ww1. The German supplies of pain killers was low, but they could still get coffee. In desperation, one German field hospital doctor tried a coffee enema, and the patient responded favorably. (no doubt due to placebo effect)
    This started up a whole chain of such things, leading Gerson to later (and erroneously) claim that the coffee enema washed toxins out of the liver. Thus the Gerson protocol.

  35. #35 Renate
    June 17, 2012

    At least coffee enemas are to be prefered over bleach enemas.

    Not meaning they do anything good, but bleach enemas are something I really wouldn’t like to experience.

  36. #36 Rosemary Jacobs
    Vermont
    June 17, 2012

    Mr. Weeks did not post the following comment that I left after his Huff article. Wonder why? I tried reposting again without the links, but that didn’t get through either.

    Naturopaths terrify me. They routinely use products that have never been evaluated for safety or efficacy. One or more of these products could be totally useless and as lethal as cigarettes but by the time that is known, it will be too late to prevent many premature deaths.
    http://rosemary-jacobs.blogspot.com/2012/04/naturopaths-terrify-me-nds-do-not.html
    http://rosemary-jacobs.blogspot.com/2012/05/deadly-folk-medicine.html

    Worse still, they use dangerous snake oil like silver which disfigured me over 50 years ago.
    http://rosemaryjacobs.com/naturopaths.html

    Naturopaths practice a belief-based system of medicine, not an evidence-based one with the result that when there is overwhelming evidence that something like silver is useless and dangerous they are emotionally unable to believe that because the idea that something natural can be harmful and useless is contrary to their religious or philosophical belief that Nature heals.

    Rosemary Jacobs

  37. #37 Taylormattd
    June 17, 2012

    Resisting the urge to quote Dan Ackroyd . . .

  38. #38 peebs
    June 17, 2012

    Yet another story from the dinosaur.

    I used silver nitrate to treat small granulomae in wounds. It was quite effective but had the unfortunate side effect of oxidising and turning the the whole wound black.

    Flamazine, a burn treatment which i used to great effect, especially in the Falklands War, also contained silver salts and, not surprisingly, also made the wound and skin black.

    On the subject of coffee enemas, i have a 1930 edition of The Naval Sick Berth Ratings Handbook. It states,

    “Hot Coffee, administered rectally, is a useful stimulant in the treatment of an unconscious drunk.”

  39. #39 Narad
    June 17, 2012

    “Hot Coffee, administered rectally, is a useful stimulant in the treatment of an unconscious drunk.”

    At very least, it would probably get someone to swab the deck of their own accord.

  40. #40 bad poet
    June 17, 2012

    My Airedale would make a fine acupuncture/trampletherapist, by all the beliefs of woo-opathy. She’s overly enthusiastic, knows nothing of science, and would continue treatment long after it’s useful.

  41. #41 herr doktor bimler
    June 17, 2012

    I used silver nitrate to treat small granulomae in wounds.

    I would feel negative about that.

  42. #42 Denice Walter
    June 17, 2012

    @ peebs:
    I trust that that unfortunate side-effect did not tarnish your sterling reputation.

  43. #43 peebs
    June 17, 2012

    I did once apply flamazine to the face of one of my shipmates who had quite nasty sunburn. By quite nasty I mean a mixture of superficial and intermediate burns.
    She then went back straight out into the sun. I got grief from her and her husband when she returned looking like Al Jolson.

    Oh, how the rest of us laughed! (It should be noted that in our Armed Forces sympathy is but a word in the dictionary, between shit and syphilis).

    Herr Doktor, I’m probably being as thick as the complete works of Dickens in large print but, unusually, your cryptic comment has left me floundering.

  44. #44 Militant Agnostic
    In my home office, not THE Home Office
    June 17, 2012

    peebs

    Silver nitrate was (maybe still is) the light sensitive chemical in black and white photographic negatives.

  45. #45 herr doktor bimler
    June 18, 2012

    I think these days the negatives start out drenched in silver nitrate, before this becomes silver halide as part of the manufacturing. If anyone’s still making negative film these days.

    Obviously could have been funnier.

  46. #46 peebs
    June 18, 2012

    I should have known that. I just wasn’t thinking laterally enough, embarrassingly I used to be quite an accomplished photographer, though in my defence, I used mainly transparencies.

    Silver nitrate was also of course, used on X Ray films.

  47. #47 Rian Shah
    seattle
    June 29, 2012

    Have any of you been to a naturopath?

    As a practicing ND since 2004, I have seen life-changing things happen in my office. What distinguishes ND’s from MD’s are a few things: first, we spend an hour 1/2 with our first office calls. We get to know our patient’s health history from the start, in detail. We get to know their diet and their lifestyle choices, their fears and concerns, their accomplishments. We take detailed history’s of each and every chief complaint and follow that with differential diagnosis, the proper physical exams and blood work and then use every tool in our tool box to help them get well. We start with diet and lifestyle changes and add treatment options little by little if and only if the least invasive option isn’t working. Traditional medications are the last on our list for most.

    An example, for 2 years I worked with type 2 diabetics reversing their diabetes. These were patients on metformin and insulin, some of them, not because they weren’t making their own insulin, but because their doctors didn’t know what else to do to get their Hba1c down. When I asked them what their doctors told them about diet and lifestyle changes, they would most often say “nothing..oh, yea, stop eating as much sugar.”

    After getting my patients off of all refined carbohydrates (everything made with flour or sugar) and finding a weight loss plan that worked for them and gettting them to understand how a whole foods diet is important for proper blood sugar regulation, I would see Hba1c’s come down from 9.0 to 5.8% I was able to take all my patient’s off their metformin and insulin, some in as few as 4 months and most within 6-8 months.

    But it took a lot of education, counseling, inspiring, motivating and calling patients a few times a week to keep them on the path.

    So you mean to tell me that you actually think that going into your MD’s office and spending 5 minutes with them only for them to throw at you an increased dose of Metformin is more “scientific” and “better medicine”?

    Are you sure that all this ranting isn’t coming from a place of fear and mis-understanding, because it is different than what you have always understood to be the proper way of doing things?

    Come see me. I will change your mind.

    Rian Shah, ND
    http://www.shahfamilymedicine.com

  48. #48 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    June 29, 2012

    Rian Shah,

    What you say you do for diabetes treatment sounds perfectly sound, based on my understanding of the risk factors for diabetes. Cutting down on sugar and starch, reducing weight, and increasing exercise should improve diabetes particularly in borderline cases. On your web site you list the following services, and I’d be interested in how you justify them:
    - reiki
    - detoxification
    - Craniosacral

    There are a couple of others (like heavy metal toxicity) that could be pretty reasonable, though they often are used in invalid ways. If you have any information about why you call those out in particular, I’d also be interested.

  49. #49 Beamup
    June 29, 2012

    We start with diet and lifestyle changes and add treatment options little by little if and only if the least invasive option isn’t working.

    So, if your approach is exactly the same as REAL doctors, what’s the point?

  50. #50 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 1, 2012

    Diabetes 2 Winter Hibernation Gone Astray and Diabetes 1 Summer Drought gone astray.. A SEASONAL EXPLANATION FOR DIABETES.

    HIBERNATION DIABETES 2
    With weight gain the body interprets this as the person heading for deep freezing winter where food will become scarce or unavailable (as with hibernation). Fat stores have to increase to carry him or her through the deep freeze, and what is happening in the plant world exactly matches that of the animal world. The plants provide precisely the right nutrients for the animals for that time of year and vice versa, the bowel flora of the animal’s feces, the composition of it’s urine is precisely right for the plants. More nitrogen is locked up in the animals and more carbon is locked up in the plants and I’d reckon that the carbon:nitrogen ratio shifts between the seasons. More muscle mass in in the animal relative to fat in summer means more nitrogen to carbon in summer. Have to think about the plants, eg lignin.

    Coming on a winter freeze he or she has to conserve energy by being less active, as is taking place throughout the entire forest, hence the shift in the number of insulin receptors from muscle cells to fat cells. (peripheral resistance to insulin in diabetes 2) The simple sugar sucrose in the berries and other fruits, necessary for fast ‘fight or flight’ reactions in summer has been replaced by an increase in the more slowly ingested starch. The glucose from the breakdown of starch is being increasingly converted to fat in fat cells and of course liver (fatty liver) rather than glycogen in muscle cells as they atrophy. Soon glucose, even from starch, won’t be available or needed as the animal ceases eating and goes into ketosis and ketones will replace glucose as a fuel in so much of the animals tissue.

    What glucose the animal must have will come from gluconeogenesis, a part of going into ketosis in this context. Gluconeogenesis is the process whereby the liver MAKES glucose from the bodies own tissues, from 3 sources, lactic acid from the muscle glycogen (although that disappears once starch stops being eaten), amino acids from from the breakdown of muscle protein, glycerol (glycerine) and fatty acids. Fatty acids from fat cells are broken down to ketones, some of which drive what is called the TCA cycle to provide the energy to drive gluconeogenesis and the rest are exported from the liver as fuel for most of the body as cells adapt to ketones. There are 3 different ketones, acetone, betahydroxybutyic acid and acetoacetic acid. When muscle glycogen runs out and to conserve muscle protein for essentials, fatty acids and glycerol from fat cells become the sole source of raw material for gluconeogenesis. Cortisol is the hormone responsible for mobilising the muscle protein as well as fatty acids and glycerol from fat cells.

    Thus the big muscles developed by the spring and summer activity are now atrophying as big muscles are no longer needed. As the large fat deposits are needed for fuel during the long fast so the muscles act as a reservoir of amino acids for cell repair, peptide hormone synthesis etc., although this will be minimal as the animal lies asleep, only rousing every now and then. Bone breaks down to provide not just calcium and phosphate, but all of the minerals the body needs, copper, zinc, selenium etc The hibernating animal stops urinating to conserve water. I think hibernating animals can store urea, the nitrogen of protein breakdown, in a crystal form, so a range of other things, eg uric acid, can probably be stored in a crystaline form for recycling as the animal COMES OUT of hibernation.

    NOW TO THE POINT.
    There is NO FUEL STORAGE going on at all in the hibernating animal. Thus there is no point in hanging onto a lot of cells in organs involved in stimulating any sort of storage, e.g. beta cells of the pancreas and cells of the thyroid. So why not get rid of them as they are just wasting fuel AND CAN BE RECYCLED. Apoptosis or cell suicide is the shot as everything in the cell is broken down to bite sized chunks for other cells to use. Their is no energy wasting inflammatory reaction with apoptosis. Enter auto-immune ‘disease’, only a disease in the concrete jungle which bears absolutely no resemblance to pristine wilderness. (DIABETES IN THE CONCRETE JUNGLE)

    I first focussed on this idea when I read about gene clusters DR3 and DR4? associated with auto immune disease. I had already built a model of an animal in the wild of a temperate zone or a human in a temperate zone and these gene clusters were found in people from Central Europe who had diabetes 1 They were active in the pancreas and thyroid, both endocrine organs. Temperate zone equals big swings in temperature, snow in the winter and hot in the summer.

    SUMMER DROUGHT DIABETES 1
    Then I began to focus on the advantages of trimming these organs with the sudden onset of a life threatening drought in summer when the animal did NOT have big deposits of fat on it’s body, but did have big muscles. THE REVERSE OF WINTER. If the mechanism of storage didn’t fight with those of release from storage, then the transition to ketosis would be much quicker, easier and smoother. Very little or no adrenalin needed to initiate gluconeogenesis, just cortisol, so no water wasting sweat and energy wasting anxiety from hunger. The animal would quickly become soporific, go lay in the shade under a tree and sleep a lot of the time. Sort of summer hibernation.

    So Diabetes 1 could be this summer model gone awry in the concrete jungle. I believe that beta cells of the pancreas are vulnerable to big swings in osmotic pressure caused by big swings in blood sugar, for the same reason that neurons of the brain are vulnerable i.e. they don’t have insulin receptors on them and thus don’t store glycogen. I have never been able to confirm this idea, but I can’t see how they can and regulate blood sugar if they store it as glycogen. They wouldn’t produce insulin yet have insulin receptors on them Doesn’t add up. Loss of weight in pre-diabetic 1 equals drought adaption but with lots of sugar thrown in to initiate reactive hypoglycaemia plus expression of gene clusters DR3 and DR4. Thus auto immune ‘attack’, is perhaps apoptosis PLUS necrotic cell death and inflammatory immune reaction. Dunno. All impure speculation of course.

    THE CURE
    Ok, if the hibernating animal provides a model for Diabetes 2 then it MUST BE REVERSIBLE, ie CURABLE, following the path of the animal coming OUT of hibernation. The right ketone diet modeled on what this animal eats once it resumes eating. That’s next, as soon as I clean it up. Paul Hill

  51. #51 Chris
    Still not on the American East Coast...
    July 1, 2012

    Mr. Hill, why should we care about what you say?

  52. #52 Agashem
    July 1, 2012

    Paul Hill’s knowledge is staggering! Not only is he an expert (self-taught) on cancer, he is also an expert (self-taught) on diabetes and diets. Truly, we are humbled by his mere presence on this blog.
    :/

  53. #53 Chemmomo
    July 1, 2012

    Rian Shah @8:06 28 June

    What distinguishes ND’s from MD’s are a few things

    Medical School

  54. #54 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 1, 2012

    Agasham.
    Yeah, I agree. I’m staggered myself. You obviously know all about this stuff, hence the adulation. Behave yourself and you may touch the hem of my garment.

  55. #55 ChrisP
    July 1, 2012

    Rian, can you tell me why naturopaths like yourself always use anecdote, and never or rarely controlled studies, to support their claims of healing?

  56. #56 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 2, 2012

    CHRIS

    ‘Mr. Hill, why should we care about what you say?’
    Chris you are getting a bit repetitious. Must be stuck speechless at my extraordinary brilliance. Oh by the way, how come you know all about moderation, web links etc. on this blog?

  57. #57 lilady
    July 2, 2012

    Ignore ignorant drug-addled troll.

  58. #58 Chris
    Oh, well..
    July 2, 2012

    Mr. Hill, I will repeat a question until I get a satisfactory answer. You do not exhibit any brilliance, but someone in dire need of real psychiatric help.

    I first became acquainted with Orac on UseNet, and started following his blog from the very first day with Oracknows. After over seven years on Scienceblogs one gets to learn about the various and sundry moderation quirks. Especially when they are not a secret and have been mentioned many times.

    So, Mr. Hill, justify yourself with some actual honesty.

  59. #59 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 2, 2012

    Rain Shah,
    As the foremost authority in the known multiverse on blood sugar disorders I’d have to agree with EVERYTHING you say. My introduction to ‘reactive hypoglycemia’ was a book written by a naturopath. What the allopaths are ignorant of is that this term was suppressed by the AMA in 1972 under pressure from Cadburies Schweppes and Coca cola.

    The understanding of blood sugar regulation is now a black hole in allopathy, to the delight of big pharma which provides the treatment for the symptoms whilst making the underlying pathology much worse.

  60. #60 lilady
    July 2, 2012

    Ignore drug-addled troll.

  61. #61 Narad
    July 2, 2012

    Must be stuck speechless at my extraordinary brilliance.

    It’s like a scrawny version of Blackheart/JRS.

  62. #62 lilady
    July 2, 2012

    ….or Proscientifica.

  63. #63 Chemmomo
    Start spreading the news . . .
    July 2, 2012

    paul hill on the medicine and evolution part 13 thread @ July 1, 11:55 pm

    Everything I’ve written is bullshit.

  64. [...] if you “integrate” pseudoscience with science, it does not make the science more rigorous. If you mix quackery with real medicine, you do not [...]

  65. #65 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 2, 2012

    Chemmomo

    If I say that it is bullshit that everything I say is bullshit is that bullshit. Anyway, what’s wrong with bullshit unless it’s in a cow’s yard and it’s a holy cow. As I am the most brilliant shrink in the entire multiverse, whilst simultaneously being the most deranged patient, then, i think you’ll have to agree, that only I am qualified to treat me.

  66. #66 paul hill
    July 2, 2012

    Some more extraordinary brilliance for the masses to salivate over.

    SEASONAL CONTROL of BASAL METABOLIC RATE in the WILD vs the CONCRETE JUNGLE. A Model for Understanding a range of Diseases, including Schizophrenia.

    After the rebirth I went through in 1972 I began a fitness program and to get rid of about four stone of excess weight. I waked several miles each day to a Turkish bath and heated seawater swimming pool. Then I started to do long distance swims in Port Phillip bay. To my amazement I lost the weight in about 3 months. I’d tried many weight loss programs in the past and had failed. Now I was just eating good food and doing a lot of exercise. I figured that it had something to do with my completely changed attitude, some relationship between my mind and my metabolism. I’d been a guilt ridden introverted alcoholic manic depressive (my diagnosis) back-slidden Christian fundamentalist. Now I was full of self confidence, happy and completely cured from the grog. I could have one or two glasses of beer then go home.

    Okay, standard medical dogma had told me that if you were an alcoholic, and I was a shocking alcoholic, you could never have another drink, join AA and ask God to help you. Once an alcoholic always an alcoholic. It was in your genes. But I did the exact OPPOSITE, not intentionally, it just happened. Freed of the guilt and despair of believing that I was going to Hell one day, I just didn’t feel like the booze any more. AA does the opposite, adds more mumbo jumbo, self flagellation, self loathing etc. It was believing that I was genetically predisposed to the grog that only ADDED to this despair. NOW I WOULD QUESTION ALL DOGMA. I knew that Freud was insane for a start, Eros, Logos, Thanatos, Id, Ego, Superego etc. etc. Bloody absurd. I was now ONE not a pantheon of lunatics all at each others throats. So I had already demolished one ‘science’.

    So, to find out how I’d been able to lose all the lard I trotted off to Ramsey’s surgical and bought a swag of medical books. I got into neurology for a while, then lost interest when I began to read an incredible textbook,’Metabolic and Endocrine Physiology’ by Tepperman. This book was different in that it speculated about all sorts of things, discussed different experiments etc.

    ENTER YIN AND YANG.
    There were two prefixes that struck me over and over again, Hypo and Hyper and the ones that stuck me the most were Hypothyroidism and Hyperthyroidism. They were opposites in so many ways. The hypothyroid, was overweight, slow, lethargic, constipated, unresponsive, had high blood pressure to which I added introverted, self critical etc. There was something manic depressive about this person. I’d been one myself.

    Then there was the hyperthyroid, underweight, very reactive, suffered diarrhoea, anxious, high blood pressure but for a different reason, to which I added extroverted, perhaps narcissistic (depending on the degree), socially critical. There was some thing schizophrenic about this person as I’d done a mild version as a sort of reflex reaction to the manic depression on coming out the other side. It was beginning to dawn on me that these two opposite individuals were an exaggeration of the extremes of physiology of an animal in the wild of a temperate forest, and was thus ENTRAINED into the extremes of climate. There was no option other than to be entrained,

    What stuck out from my dabble in neurology was the amount of THOUGHT between the summer and winter, In summer there was a lot of ‘fight or flight’ and of course with the much longer days more time to do that fast reactive thinking of chasing lunch or or avoiding becoming lunch. Without going into unnecessary detail winter was the opposite.

    Now looking at the regulatory path for the THYROID gland it was STRESS?-thyrotropin releasing factor-thyrotropin-THYROXIN. The stress was speculative. I’ve been around all sorts of mechanical devices all my life and I started to think ‘What if there is some sort of flow meter that measures the amount of blood going to the brain and it’s that rate which regulates the amount of thyrotropin releasing factor’. More thought, more neural activity, more metabolic activity, more glucose needed for that activity, more oxygen, more blood flow.

    So the animal in the wild was entrained, had no control over its degree of thought and so no control over thyroid activity. In the winter it became (sub-clinically) hypothyroid and in the summer it became (sub clinically) hyperthyroid. Later I would learn about light shining through the eyes and its regulation of serotonin and melatonin, but I was on the right track. It seemed that the thyroid grew more cells (hyperplasia) in the summer and lost cells (hypoplasia not goitre)in the winter.

    Later I began to study calcium metabolism. This was a terrific model as sunlight regulated the amount of vitamin D in both plant and animal. Two opposite words stuck out osteoblasts and osteoclasts. Osteoblasts laid down bone and osteoclasts removed it. So there was more osteoblast activity compared to osteoclast coming on summer and the bones got thicker and more osteoclast activity compared to osteoblast coming on winter and the bones got thinner. No problems, thicker bones for more activity in summer, thinner bones for less in winter, perfect. This seasonal remodelling also speeds up fracture repair.

    Muscles got bigger in the summer and adipose fat deposits got smaller, the reverse in the winter. Later it struck me that if the thyroid enlarged in the summer and shrunk in the winter then the same must apply to other organs of the endocrine system, pancreas, adrenals etc. Following that reason it therefore meant that cell surface receptors that bound these endocrine hormones increased in density in summer or the other way round depending on whether they were associated with sympathetic or parasympathetic nervous activity. For example one would expect receptors associated with the catecholamine hormones, adrenalin, noradrenalin and dopamine to increase in summer and decrease in winter. Insulin is a bit more complicated as it is associated with all forms of storage, fat, glucose, protein and bone.

    But what about HUMAN animal? They are not entrained into any seasonal rhythm at all. Artificial lighting and heating, wearing glasses, driving cars, eating foods out of season. Worrying like hell in the winter cause she has lost her job and relaxing in the summer because she found one. What about pathological extremes, One one side slow anxiety, guilt depression, (no religion in the wild) self loathing fluctuating between unreal optimism and unreal pessimism. Goes out and buys everyone a present on the manic high believing doors will open to al sorts of thing including lots of sexual partners, then plunges into a depressive low when all the presents have been rejected and the huge bill comes in. Prospects worse than before. On the flip side gets aggressive and threatening, then realising the possible backlash becomes conciliatory. Whilst conciliatory is deemed to be open to criticism for the prior aggression, suddenly snaps at this self righteousness and returns to the insults. Schizophrenia. Later I add blood sugar instability and lots of endocrine deregulation insomnia etc. But it was with the THYROID that this all began.

    Schizophrenia. Following the dopamine receptor over abundance theory, this model tells me that it is not a genetic predisposition, but that the actual reason is more likely to be PERSISTANT ANXIETY, probably from early childhood. This fits in with RD Laing’s research that it is extreme conflict in the family with totally opposing beliefs and philosophies imposed on the child i.e. double binds, by each parent, along with violence and sexual abuse. Daddy says to little daughter after sexually abusing her for the first (and subsequent) times, ‘This is a really, really good thing between us, BUT DON”T TELL ANYONE!!!!!! This deranged double bind become the foundation stone of the child’s ‘development’ .

    Uncle Sam comes into the village, puts a gun to the villager’s head and says menacingly, ‘You even THINK about collaborating with Charlie (VC) and BOOM!!! A couple of hours later, after Uncle Sam has gone, Charlie comes into the village, puts a gun the the villager’s head and says equally menacingly, ‘You even think about collaborating with Uncle Sam and BOOM!!! VERY, VERY, BIG double bind.
    Noddy the hyper hypo sheep.

  67. #67 lilady
    July 2, 2012

    Cripes, stop feeding this troll. He’s enjoying the attention that he gets. It’s like wrestling with a pig…you get dirty…and the pig enjoys it.

  68. #68 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 2, 2012

    lilady,
    Of course I’m enjoying all the attention I’m getting. whaddiya want me to do, hate it. You’re dishing it out after all. Pity none of you lot understand any of this stuff, calling it troll because you can’t understand a word of it. Just putting shit on everything. Pity!! It might do you a helluva lot of good if you did understand it. You don’t HAVE to wrestle with pigs, you know.

  69. #69 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 8, 2012

    Just when I thought I was gonna get away from here I discover that I haven’t been locked out of this thread. So I thought I’d better leave another example of my extraordinary brilliance for mere mortals to salivate over. It is naturophathy in that it sees the migraine as a symptom.

    MIGRAINE.
    Without just a tiny bit of physics, ie a rudimentary understanding of osmotic pressure, this hypothesis would not have been possible. Oliver Sacks calls the vasospasm spontaneous in his book on migraine. Oliver Sacks GETS migraine, or did when he published it and not a single mention of sugar. He must know the hypothesis, but dismisses it as it comes from the ‘ratbag’ element. Rather have the pain than let go of the dogma. All I know is that the vasospasm disappears when the migraineur cuts out refined sugar.

    VASOSPASM. The OSMOTIC PRESSURE HYPOTHESIS.
    This hypothesis is based on two things. All of the evidence points to it and 2. Things don’t just happen as the neurologist suggests.

    The migraineur might start to experience symptoms of an impending migraine in a couple of days prior to the attack. I’d suggest a series of reactive hypoglycaemia of ever shortening duration as being responsible here. The migrainer wakes up with a sugar craving and is in ketosis, perhaps. Has a sugary breakfast or just a cup of coffee with 2 or 3 teaspoons of sugar in it. But not necessarily so as the person suffering reactive hyper hypoglycaemia seems to become increasingly sensitive to sugar over time, sometimes exquisitely so. Perhaps it’s the caffeine. (I’m just thinking out loud). Within a couple of hours the craving returns. Then the same again but sooner as the swings get bigger, finally a migraine. FEAR of an impending migraine as early symptoms appear obviously exacerbates this vicious cycle, worsening symptoms more fear and vicky verka. Finally up goes the BG to an astronomical high and begins to plunge rapidly.

    OSMOSIS and the VASOSPASM..
    We can divide tissue up into 3 basic osmotic compartments, intervascular, interstitial or between tissue cells, and intercellular. The intervascular department is a bit different as it contains albumin made by the liver. Referred to as a colloid it transports a range of different molecules on different charged sites and exerts a lot of osmotic pressure. With liver failure, as with cirrhosis, albumin production drops and fluid increasing leaks out of the blood vessels into the interstitial spaces

    A range of ions and polar molecules exert osmotic pressure in solution. These obviously include some whole proteins. Whilst the concentration of the different ions is different between the inside of a cell and the outside, e.g. more sodium outside and more potassium inside, as is necessary to achieve an electrical gradient across the plasma membrane, osmotic pressure is balanced between compartments. If it were not so the compartment with greatest pressure would obviously swell up and burst or just leak badly. A range of cell plasma membrane pumps pump some things in and some things out, some like the sodium potassium pump pumps sodium out and potassium in whilst potassium gradually leaks out by passive diffusion. There is also a pH gradient across the membrane, for instance when red blood cells exchange oxygen for carbon dioxide there is a pH swap on which, what becomes their carbhaemoglobin, a site which ionically binds sodium ions swaps this for a hydrogen ion whilst bicarbonate ions in the cell are exchanged for chloride ions outside the cell. You could say that ionised sodium bicarbonate is exchanged across the membrane for ionised hydrochloric acid when oxygen is off loaded and carbon dioxide is taken onboard.

    Alkaline oxyhaemoglobin become acidic carbhaemoglobin. Hydrogen ions and chloride ions diffuse into the cell in exchange for sodium and bicarbonate ions which diffuse out, and of course the opposite takes place in the lungs. All well and good. Does that mean that venous blood is more alkaline than arterial blood? From memory not so as free carbonic acid makes venous blood more acidic. Normal arterial blood has a pH of 7.4, however, with very severe metabolic acidosis it can fall to life threatening 6.8. The patient is breathing very heavily as the body to get rid of excess carbon dioxide as it forms carbonic acid in solution

    Glucose, being a polar molecule, also exerts osmotic pressure and as long as blood glucose regulation is performing properly, then everything has evolved to be in balance. However, lets say that the BG level shoots up 300% in a half hour. Neurons in the brain do not store glucose as glycogen and thus have no insulin receptors on them. Glucose enters neurons by passive diffusion to be immediately metabolised.. So how does the brain control how much glucose enters neurons to match their fluctuating metabolic rate? The brain controls the ENTIRE BG regulatory system TO SUIT ITSELF, modulating pancreas, adrenals, liver etc. with parasympathetic and sympathetic signals, modulating blood vessels etc. etc. Thus brain cells are bathed in the precise glucose concentration needed to suit their immediate metabolic demands. Localised areas of the brain control blood vessels to match the degree of localised metabolism. Many neurotransmitter (if not all) are also prostaglandin activators,

    With reactive hypoglycaemia the brain LOSES CONTROL. So up shoots the BG in the fluid bathing the neuron and because it has no control over it’s ingress it turns on an emergency pathway call a Polyol Pathway (multiple alcohol). The idea is to get the glucose in the cell out of solution as quickly as possible. So first it’s converted to sorbitol then to fructose and because fructose precipitates out at a lower concentration than glucose, fructose crystals begin to form in the cytoplasm.. However, unlike glycogen which is aosmotic (doesn’t exert osmotic pressure) fructose does and when the BG outside the neuron begins to plummet precipitously the fructose crystals begin to pull a lot of water into the cell. The entire brain swells in a migraine and this is why. A lot of neurons may be permanently damaged. Unable to repair themselves, and unable to turn on apoptosis, they ‘inappropriately’ express MHC2(?) receptors, thereby behaving like an APC (antigen presentation cell) and so initiate an immune response against themselves. Auto immune ‘attack’ maybe. Just a hunch!!

    In a desperate attempt to limit the osmotic pressure imbalance and limit the damage the brain must secrete a vasoconstrictor in blood vessels supplying it, even though this constriction will worsen the already severe hypoglycaemia and create hypoxia just at a time when cells need both glucose and oxygen to make ATP to DRIVE THE BAIL OUT PUMPS. As noradrenalin is a constrictor in blood vessels in which adrenalin is a dilator, then I’d nominate it, but not coming from the adrenals, but from the brain itself in order to limit this constriction to just these blood vessels alone. This is purely a hypothesis and the reason I believe that it does this is to retain as much electrolyte, calcium, sodium etc. in the interstitial fluid to compensate for the loss of glucose. It is a desperate attempt to balance one crisis against another. If the migrainer is very frightened and is considering the possibility of a stoke, even death, then the extra neural activity of fear (the brain on average uses 40% of the body’s glucose) further exacerbates the overall problem. Fear also creates hypersuggestability, or the ability to imagine even worse consequences, Hellfire, thus even more fear ad infinitum. Blacking out would be protective against this runaway fear and that is why, I believe, an epileptic blacks out before an attack.

    Finally the hypoxia added to the hypoglycaemia becomes the predominant problem and flood of vasodilator is released and these blood vessels massively dilate instead. One important dilator is ADP which builds up in cells unable to phosphorylate it to ATP and is released from these cells. Bradikinin sensitises pain receptors so it is possibly involved as well. MIIIIIIIGRAINE!!!!!

    Now consider other factors which must contribute to the mental confusion as the blood sugar falls. A huge imbalance in the concentration of ions across the plasma membranes of a neuron, must drastically alter it’s depolarisation/repolarisation when it fires, thereby altering the firing potential of it’s synapses, along with the drastic shift in pH gradient also having a negative affect.
    Next, the gyrations of the rest of the soma. Noddy (Paul Hill)

  70. #70 Narad
    July 8, 2012

    Just when I thought I was gonna get away from here I discover that I haven’t been locked out of this thread.

    You haven’t been “locked out” of any threads. Is this just some cut-and-paste of something from elsewhere?

  71. #71 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 8, 2012

    No Narad,
    What you have got to get into your considerably thick skull is that every word of this is written by me, based on 40 years of multidisciplinary research and is unique. Go spend a few months searching online for where I pinched it from. I know it beggars your your belief that an uneducated nut case could work something like this out. I’m even gobsmacked myself. Go tell people who have migraine and see if it works for them. The proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the eating.

  72. #72 Narad
    July 8, 2012

    No Narad

    So what’s with the horseshit about being locked out of threads?

  73. #73 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 9, 2012

    Narad.
    ‘So what’s with the horseshit about being locked out of threads?’
    So RD Laing spoke about communication did he and you are an expert. He would rephrase your question thus.
    ‘Can you tell me what thread you have been locked out?’ See it’s easy. It’s called common courtesy and it is something you may learn once you mature, if that is possible, which I very much doubt. Is this all you exist for, getting onto blogs and slagging everything, destroying what others try to create, making no creative contribution yourself and hiding behind a pseudonym? Very sad really.

  74. #74 paul hill
    July 9, 2012

    MIGRAINE Part 2. Digestion and assimilation of sugars.
    The term sugars covers a wide range of compounds, however, I just want to cover the hexoses (6 sided) normally found in food. All dietary sugars are either dimers (2 joined together) or the polymer starch, the exception being honey in which the double sugar sucrose has been hydrolysed by the bees digestive system into single sugars. Fruit sugar sucrose is fructose glucose, milk sugar lactose is galactose, glucose and starch is a long chain of glucose molecules with side branches sticking out from the main trunk. Glycogen, the form of glucose polymer which acts as a storage medium in animal cells is much the same as plant starch except the side branches are located in a different place and cannot be digested in a human’s gastro-intestinal tract. Starch digestion begins in the mouth by the enzyme ptyalin and it is broken down to the double glucose molecule maltose by the time it enters the duodenum.
    Okay, now to a VERY IMPORTANT POINT. In the natural world all sugars (except in honey) arrive in the duodenum for digestion as DOUBLE sugars, sucrose, lactose and maltose and cannot be absorbed into the body until cleaved into single sugars by the enzymes sucrase, lactase and maltase which are secreted into the duodenum by the EXocrine pancreas. This is where regulation comes in and is so important in stabilising the blood sugar level, The ENdocrine pancreas, located inside the body and which produces insulin in it’s beta cells and glucagon in it’s alpha cells, monitors blood sugar and it communicates with the exocrine pancreas via the GIP (gastro inhibitory peptide) axis. The idea is that the exocrine pancreas does not secrete the digestive enzymes into the duodenum until it the endocrine pancreas is ready and the exocrine pancreas monitors the presence and level of sugars in the duodenum telling the endocrine pancreas when to begin making insulin. THUS THERE IS VERY TIGHT CONTROL
    Insulin takes about twenty minutes to synthesise. However, in the healthy individual there is a residue of insulin remaining in the cells from the previous release, so that there is a so called biphasic release. This residue is to nip in the bud any premature release of sugar into the bloodstream until de nova synthesis has finished and it is lost with reactive hypoglycaemia, as with migraine, because the pancreas is forced to overreact all the time. This loss of biphasic release is destabilising as I will cover in the next chapter.
    Now we come to fibre. Plant fibre is composed of lignin, cellulose, hemicellulose and pectin. Fibre exerts strong osmotic pressure in solution and when present in the digestive tract pulls against the absorption of the monosaccharides resulting from the cleavage of the disaccharrides by the digestive enzymes. The monosaccharrides, glucose and galactose are actively transported in to the bloodstream, whereas, from memory, fructose enters by passive diffusion, So active transport also acts as a regulator.

    REFINED SUGARS.
    Now I want to leave the subject of digestion and assimilation and talk about the sugars of the concrete jungle. It is harmful to eat monosaccharides as they disturb blood sugar regulation. Processed foods contain the monosaccharides fructose, glucose, dextrose (another name for glucose) and food manufacturers are desperate to shove as much of this stuff into their ‘foods’ as possible. Sucrose or refined sugar put into a boiling cup of tea or coffee is hydrolysed into the monosaccharides by the heat whilst the caffeine accelerates the rise in blood sugar.
    Caffeine poisons the enzyme phosphodiesterase located on the G stimulatory protein of the RAS (rat sarcoma) signalling pathway thereby preventing the pathway from turning off. Let’s say that adrenalin binds to the RAS beta receptor outside the cell and activates it. Inside the cell the (C terminus) part of the receptor, now activated, draws the G protein to it and the G protein is diphosphorylated and thus activated. Activated G protein then migrates to adenylate cyclase and activates it and adenylate cyclase then begins to make cyclic AMP or cAMP which in turn activates the rest of the signal transduction pathway.. Within milliseconds or seconds phosphodiesterase on the G protein dephosphorylates the G protein and it migrates back to a position midway between the adenylate cyclase and the RAS beta receptor. Thus by caffeine poisoning phosphodiesterase an adrenalin response remains switched on for some time after adrenalin is withdrawn from the bloodstream. As adrenalin raises blood sugar in a number of ways it is obvious that caffeine is destabilising to blood sugar regulation. RAS pathways are ubiquitous in the body and stimulators include embryonic hormones, hence the suggestion that caffeine can be a promoter of cancer once started and it’s cells dedifferientated.
    Threobromine is the other blood sugar raiser in Coca Cola and chocolate. It’s a xanthine like uric acid, and is essentially caffeine with one less methyl group on it (caffeine has 4). So, boiling coffee, sugar, a lump of chocolate, a swig of Coke and an hour or so the mouth is spewing and the head is thumping, tremors, sweats, no bloody good at all and very destructive.
    In part 4 I want to get into the subject of blood sugar regulation INSIDE the body (the GI tract is officially outside the body). This will begin to touch on panic attacks, epilepsy, asthma and schizophrenia.. I might also start on the subject of how to break the addictions.

  75. #75 ChrisP
    July 9, 2012

    So what’s with the horseshit about being locked out of threads?

    Made up like all the other stuff he writes?

  76. #76 Chris
    Neither here nor there...
    July 9, 2012

    Narad, apparently the thread that Mr. Hill was using as his personal blog has now been closed. Orac is using this software’s feature to close threads automatically after 90 days.

  77. #77 Orac
    July 9, 2012

    That is correct. Comment threads automatically close after 90 days.

  78. #78 Composer99
    http://composer99.blogspot.ca
    July 9, 2012

    paul hill:

    Blogspot and WordPress offer free blogging space which you could surely use instead of spamming Orac’s comments with off-topic nonsense.

  79. #79 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 9, 2012

    Given the paucity of any mention of lifestyle factors having any connection whatsoever with any psycho/physiological disorders on these blogs, I am fast coming to the conclusion that so called ‘evidence-based science’ is as much pseudoscience and quackery as the worst excesses of homeopathy. After all, what could be more quackery than the Weissman barrier. All that mid boggling technology too: that’s what sucks them in.

    Why on earth would I want to start my own blog when I’m having so much fun drawing the fire of meat heads who know bugger all of anything. Orac, where do scrape up all your disciples from, and when are go gonna have your Guyana Masada, ’cause I want to be there to enjoy the spectacle. I swooned over the Jim Jones movies, all those religious nutters writhing in agony on the ground. Trouble is they put Cool Aid into their cyanide. You should NEVER put Cool Aid into your cyanide as it’s deadly, Coca Cola even worse. I’m now completely satisfied that there are just as many nutter atheists as religious ones. That’s why I came here, to do a survey and it’s been VERY enlightening, I tell ya. Enlighten me some more.

  80. #81 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 9, 2012

    One thing I forgot. I wanted to congratulate you and the team for closing ‘Evolution and Medicine’ just when you did, leaving the impression that I am EXTREMELY dangerous. Well, I’m not in the least little bit dangerous, but it’s perceptions that count and being seen as HORRIFICALLY dangerous suits my current ambitions as only then will the global community sit up and take notice. I am currently contemplating emailing MI5, CIA, ASIO etc. to let them enjoy your blogs, depending on how things pan out.

  81. #82 Narad
    July 9, 2012

    Narad, apparently the thread that Mr. Hill was using as his personal blog has now been closed. Orac is using this software’s feature to close threads automatically after 90 days.

    I see, thank you. I’m sure ERV is going to lurve him a bunch.

  82. #83 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 9, 2012

    Narad,
    Being so much on the ball as you are, I guess you must be the head disciple, the Peter perhaps. Hey if that’s right I might be Judas or perhaps the anti-Christ. I’m not sure a go much on being lurved, as you so quaintly put. Rather be loathed. Isn’t it time for your hourly wank?

  83. #84 Orac
    July 9, 2012

    One thing I forgot. I wanted to congratulate you and the team for closing ‘Evolution and Medicine’ just when you did, leaving the impression that I am EXTREMELY dangerous.

    Nonsense. The post is now over 90 days old. To cut down on comment spam, I have WordPress set to shut down comment threads at 90 days. It has nothing to do with you or your “dangerousness.” You might be annoying, but you’re hardly “dangerous.”

  84. #85 Politicalguineapig
    July 9, 2012

    Mr. Hill: I’ll go through this point by point, so you can keep up.
    1. Migraines are not all sugar based or caused by caffiene. In women, the most common link tends to be hormones. Would you like to explain to the audience how a nine-year-old, with no coffee or caffiene habit, could still have migraines?
    2. Again with the sympathy for pedophiles. Well, since you worked in a profession that was male dominated I suppose you can’t help it.
    3. Bullshit. Every single doctor who practices does take life-style into account. What you seem to be complaining about is that they don’t view medicine as life-style uber all. Ever heard of these things called genes?
    Schizophrenia, for example, is genetic. Stress can *trigger* a schizophrenic, but that doesn’t mean the schizophrenia was caused by the stress.

  85. #86 Chris
    Where it is now "garbage night"...
    July 9, 2012

    Which is why I am now just ignoring Mr. Hill. He is not worth it.

    Though I do wish he would get some real help.

  86. [...] commenter who borders on trollish wrote: One thing I forgot. I wanted to congratulate you and the team for closing ‘Evolution and [...]

  87. #88 paul hill
    July 10, 2012

    Orac,
    If i am as psychotic as the great stream of of people on ‘medicine and evolution’ are telling me then I must be seen as dangerous by THEIR definition. The label of schizophrenia implies potentially extremely dangerous and acting without any provocation whatsoever.

    This is why RD Laing said that the label was an extreme form of abuse in itself and was so alienating that it could be self fulfilling.

    Every comment on Cancer or whatever I posted was followed by a stream of ridicule. If there was a comment made to me about some science, eg ketosis, it was ALWAYS abusive.

    Is a constant steam of vacuous drivel SCIENCE. It was YOU who set me up mate, eh? Oh by the way, thanks for the new post about me. That really inflates my already overheated ego. My stuff must be REALLY good, incredible as a matter of fact. I say that with the utmost humility, about which I am intensely proud.

  88. #89 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 10, 2012

    CHRIS,
    You seem to have a profound problem. If you are ignoring me why did you make that post telling me so. Time for a creosote enema mate.

  89. #90 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 10, 2012

    Politicalguineapig,
    1 Hormones in women merely exacerbate the effects of refined sugar and caffeine. I’ve PROVEN this with a booklet I wrote many years ago that had a lot of success. I’m not quoting what the medical profession says, this is EVIDENCE based science, MY science. You didn’t say the kid wasn’t using sugar.

    2 That is pathetic. Go and wash your mouth out. I would help anybody in trouble, even ADOLPH HITLER. We are all a precise product of our social environment. Most pedophiles have themselves been abused as children and the reason they become pedophiles themselves is because they get no help whatsoever when it comes out that they have been abused, just mealy mouthed platitudes.

    3 You mean that ‘science’ says that schizophrenia is genetic. The main reason for this is because that is what people WANT to believe, especially parents that have abused their children then VEHEMENTLY deny it till the day they die. I have personal experience in this having been bashed mercilessly by my father, who even took to me with a stock whip on one occasion till I bled. Constant ridicule and criticism. Yet my mother denied it utterly till the day she died.
    I’ll leave a post about a society which proves nurture, one you can see for yourself if you can get a copy.

  90. #91 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 10, 2012

    About 30 years ago a doco was shown on an ABC called ‘The Peoples of Zansaar.’ 5 remote Buddhist communities 11,000 ft up in the Himalayas in which there had never been a murder in recorded history, no theft and psychiatric disorders were unknown. Equality was almost total as there was no money, barter being the method of exchange. Not only was there equality there was self sufficiency. Each town had a King, however the King had no more wealth than anyone else, wore the same clothes and lived in a house no different. His sole function in society was to arbitrate disputes and he had to be fair in order to avoid socially destructive resentment on one side. When someone died they left their land to the king and as it was of no value to him, he gave it to a poor person who didn’t have land. Thus he redistributed wealth DOWN to maintain social unity.
    There was NO form of social repression in these towns, no police, no courts, no shrinks and no bins. If there was resentment it had to be sorted out BEFORE it became unresolvable. The fundamental distinction in these communities from probably every other society on Earth was that if someone committed an act of anti-social behaviour they said WHERE DID WE GO WRONG? WE, WE, WE, a fundamental recognition that each one of us is a precise product of our social environment. Then they’d fix the problem. An example shown was a man who had disappeared from among them and realising that he was probably on a bender as his wife had recently died, several people went around to his place and, sure enough, place and him in a mess. So they cleaned the place up, supported him in a number of ways and he pulled out of the horrors. This reaction is the precise OPPOSITE to that of just about every other society, which shuns the alcoholic.
    Kids were shown playing, boys and girls together, unsegregated into their teens. In Western society they begin to segregate at about 3 ½ tears old. Boys playing competitive games, pushing and shoving each other, girls playing more cooperative games, one setting the doll’s table, one setting out the cutlery, one putting the dolls on their chairs etc.
    Okay, now the cynic might argue that it’s religious repression that keeps these people in line, the fear of being reincarnated as a cockroach for misbehaving then being trodden on. Well the fear of Hellfire doesn’t seem to keep people in other religions in line. For example, the Catholic that knows that he or she can can ‘sin’ then be go to confession, or the Baptist that believes once saved always saved, and can pray for forgiveness anyway.
    The thing is there was absolutely no REASON for anyone to feel resentful. I know that this is an affront to anyone who desperately wants to believe in SIN, as I used to myself. However, the Japanese anthropologists that made this doco were meticulous in their analysis of this society and were blown away by it’s QUALITATIVE difference. Mandatory viewing folks, once more please ABC. Called ‘The Peoples of Zansaar’ by M.A.N

  91. #92 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 10, 2012

    Then this to support the above.

    RODENTS
    Many years ago now I saw a documentary on the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Commission) about huge rodents that are bred for food in Central America These rodents are extremely aggressive and as the people who breed them are too poor to fence them in they just roam around the village. The females are most aggressive when they’ve got pups and will attack other females who get too close.

    Thus the villagers wanted to find some way of taming them, and researchers were becoming interested as well. The animals had big litters and as their teats didn’t provide an equal amount of milk, there was a lot of pushing and shoving among the pups to get the best or just any. Then there was the pups being exposed to their mother’s aggression toward other females that got too close.
    So the researchers thought that removing the pups from the teat and putting them onto an artificial surrogate mother at an early age might work. The mothers were milked to provide the surrogate milk. At first the researchers tried removing the pups from their mothers several weeks after birth. No go, a week, no go, a few hours, no go. In desperation they tried removing them immediately they were born. IT WORKED. When they were threatened they just cowered. How about that?

    This begs the question how did they behave when in natural wilderness before being ‘domesticated’ and how much was their behaviour determined by the treatment they received from their human captors. Were they belted to separated them when they fought or just being herded around. Were they slaughtered where other rodents could witness this, their captors being totally oblivious to the effect this might have on them. I saw a dead cow once being towed out of the paddock it was in and the effect this had on the other cows was amazing. They were extremely agitated, rushing up to it, staring at it for a few seconds then rushing away.

    With the rodents there could be a vicious cycle at work here. The more they fought the more they got knocked around by their captors and vice versa. What about being removed from their mum at birth removing the bonding of breast feeding. But then quintuplet humans couldn’t possibly be breast fed at the same time. Most important of all what about big litters of black sheep.

    Oh yeah, Politicalguineapig, it’s time you started reading RD Laing, ‘Sanity, Madness and the Family’ to start off with, about eleven schizophrenic girls and who he tried to reconcile their families, to CURE the schizophrenia What if Hans had admitted the abuse to his daughter and apologized to her profusely? No admission of abuse by parents no cure. The reverse in this case. He wasn’t domineering just old, pathetic and schizophrenic. His dead wife had been schizophrenic. His mother hanged herself in the kitchen when he was a little kid. Germany during the war. The point I’m also trying to make is that public shrinks do nothing whatsoever to reconcile families, just drugs and ECT . Go check Clozapine, diabetes 2, chronic constipation, burst bowel. Dead. Great.

    Noddy the Black Sheep.

  92. #93 Todd W.
    http://harpocratesspeaks.com
    July 10, 2012

    The wall of text about migraines is a copy-paste from a comment on this thread from April.

  93. #94 Mrs Woo
    July 10, 2012

    I really have to wonder exactly how far round the bend poor Mr Hill is. Also kind of confused how someone living in the middle of a national wildlife area of some sort has the ability to get on the internet. He would need a satellite uplink system and some solar power minimum. After having everything he owned smashed to bits and what sounds like no income whatsoever that is quite a feat…

  94. #95 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 10, 2012

    Ok, I’m a liar, cheat, plagiarist, murderer, pedophile, thief, rapist, terrorist, psychopath and even a bloody insider trader. I have a very elaborate antenna system that I built as an electronic technician. I also have a petrol driven generator and batteries. I was smashed up about 15 years ago and have been on a pension since about ’85. Can you find any other accusations to level at me. You should just listen to yourselves. Okay. If I was schizophrenic, which I’m not, but did go THROUGH it in ’72, I could only see this tirade of criticism as HAVING to be a huge conspiracy, thus making me more and more psychotic to the point of suffering auditory hallucinations telling me to go out and possibly do something dreadful. I understand schizophrenia like the back of my hand, hence taking the piss out instead of becoming abusive myself, putting out the hand of friendship and having it bitten over and over again. When does it cease?

  95. #96 Politicalguineapig
    July 10, 2012

    Hey, look a free medical dictionary. Let’s see what it says.

    http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/schizophrenia

    “Schizophrenia is a psychotic disorder (or a group of disorders) marked by severely impaired thinking, emotions, and behaviors. Schizophrenic patients are typically unable to filter sensory stimuli and may have enhanced perceptions of sounds, colors, and other features of their environment.”

    Note that there’s nothing in there about being violent. The vast majority of schizophrenics are more likely to be victims of violence then to cause the violence themselves.

    “Theories of causality: One of the reasons for the ongoing difficulty in classifying schizophrenic disorders is incomplete understanding of their causes. It is thought that these disorders are the end result of a combination of genetic, neurobiological, and environmental causes. A leading neurobiological hypothesis looks at the connection between the disease and excessive levels of dopamine, a chemical that transmits signals in the brain (neurotransmitter). The genetic factor in schizophrenia has been underscored by recent findings that first-degree biological relatives of schizophrenics are ten times as likely to develop the disorder as are members of the general population.
    Prior to recent findings of abnormalities in the brain structure of schizophrenic patients, several generations of psychotherapists advanced a number of psychoanalytic and sociological theories about the origins of schizophrenia. These theories ranged from hypotheses about the patient’s problems with anxiety or aggression to theories about stress reactions or interactions with disturbed parents. Psychosocial factors are now thought to influence the expression or severity of schizophrenia rather than cause it directly.”

    I have to go now, but I’ll tackleLaing’s abusive practices when I get back.

  96. #97 elburto
    July 10, 2012

    Laing was debunked years ago. Did my psych degree in the 90s, and he was considered to be the bete noire of schizophrenogenic theory even then.

    P’raps your foil hat’s on too tight Cobber.

  97. #98 Denice Walter
    July 10, 2012

    There’s a good discussion of causation of schizophreia @ schizophrenia.com: I especially like the odds ratio graph.

  98. #99 Narad
    July 10, 2012

    I have a very elaborate antenna system that I built as an electronic technician.

    It must have been a sad day for you when these guys went SK.

  99. #100 Narad
    July 10, 2012

    Laing was debunked years ago. Did my psych degree in the 90s, and he was considered to be the bete noire of schizophrenogenic theory even then.

    The only bits of Laing that seem to have lasting value to me are Conversations with Adam and Natasha and the movie Asylum. He’s also a dreadfully dull writer*; Watzlawick et al.’s Pragmatics of Human Communication is a much more readable overview of what was going on.

    * Who died playing tennis. Let’s be careful out there, people.

  100. #101 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 10, 2012

    As Laing would say, the dictionary version is complete crap. Laing has been ‘debunked’ for exactly the same reasons that these blogs are trying to debunk everything that doesn’t suit very NARROW commercial interests. The excess levels of dopamine AND receptors are the result of long term persistent stress. To quote the dictionary. “It is THOUGHT that these disorders are the end result of a combination of genetic, neurobiological, and environmental causes”. It is THOUGHT wrong. Although Laing doesn’t talk about it, it is obvious that he went through a period of undiagnosed schizophrenia himself and that is the point he is trying to make. You have to go insane to become sane, because you cannot be sane without understanding insanity. Understanding is compassion

    You CANNOT understand ANY form of psychiatric illness unless you go through it your self and come out the other side. All the degrees in the world cannot DO that. Take LSD and you’ll get some idea as it is a psychomimetic (another debunked word). Take a lot more and you’ll end up with LSD induced schizophrenia and more than likely end up institutionalized. Avoid being institutionalized which is very unlikely unless you have enough income to be financially independent and have your own digs, ie an abalone diver, even an alcoholic one that can only just function in the most appalling digs. Go on taking LSD because you are starting to believe there might be another side and finally you emerge out the other side, having passed through a minefield. Society says, BULLSHIT. There IS no other side. To say that there is is merely symptomatic of a DRAMATIC worsening of the psychosis. ME by your own definition here. As to violence committed by schizophrenics, no not once they are medicated by the most poisonous, toxic of all medications on Earth, the antiphychotics. They become obese docile manic depressives. (Sorry, bipolar.)

    As to inheritance, sure inheritance of behavior, MEMES if you want to use Dawkins stupid bloody word. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. My town has to be the schizophrenia capital of Australia. If I was schizophrenic YOU LOT would be my extended family and, as Laing says, every family has to have a scapegoat as a yard stick to measure their own ‘sanity’ by, someone to ridicule, someone to score points from, outdo each other to score the most points, someone to blame for their own ‘sins’. I know all this because I used to do it myself. Then when I stopped doing it I felt really good about myself. Peace. Euphoria even. A helluva lot of tears, but their is nothing wrong with tears.

    When I was a kid my old man had a free range chook farm and every now and then I would witness the ‘pecking order’ and it was horrible. The whole yard of chooks setting to one chook in a frenzy and the more it bled and tried to get away the greater the frenzy until it lay on the ground dead covered in blood. I saw myself as that chook as I do right now. How many points for the one who finishes me off, Eh?

    I agree that Laing was dead boring, far too philosophical, but he still wrote enormously important stuff. His critique of schizophrenia was one of society itself. There were more down too Earth, tongue in cheek, anti-psychiatry authors like Joe Berke. “The Power Tactics of Jesus Christ’ ‘Onanism’. David Cooper was poisonous. Went of the rails completely.

    The very last thing on Earth I would want would be disciples. My flesh creeps just thinking about it. I just want some REAL friends. What about it eh?

  101. #102 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 10, 2012

    EXTREME INTRACTABLE DEPRESSION.
    I intrigues me, all the talk about genes and drugs in the treatment of depression as if there just HAS to be some inheritance factor involved. There are no shortage of things to get depressed about in this world today without bringing belief systems into the equation. This a story about horrific depression from which very few escape. It involves both a shrink and a patient, in both cases me. It’s a story that has to be told to reach out and offer escape to anyone else caught in the same trap.

    I find the use of surgical intervention for something like depression as appalling. Up until 1972 I suffered the most dreadful depression from early childhood with alcoholism commencing at 14. I contracted meningitis at just 9 months old, then at 28 suffered very severe bends with cerebral complications (as indicated by tunnel vision) as an abalone diver.
    However, there were plenty of environmental factors to depress me. I was brutalised by my father who came back from WW2 deranged. As well as bashing me he ridiculed and criticised everything I did.

    At 19, filled with self loathing, I went forward at a Billy Graham meeting and then committed the worst sin possible for a Baptist, I backslid, finally believing that I had been cut off with no possible hope of redemption. I was going to burn in Hell forever and this tormented me day and night. The only way I could cope was to drink myself into oblivion. I couldn’t commit suicide and I couldn’t be awake and I couldn’t talk to ANYBODY about it. Being unconscious was the only way out.

    Then in 1970 I lost TWO abalone boats with the death of my deckhand on each occasion, punishment by God I believed for my backsliding, and punishment by man by enormous stigma. The local Baptist minister visited me in hospital after I lost the first boat and was being treated for suicidal ideation. He said with great compassion, “The reason you lost that boat and the young man died was because you turned your back on the Lord Jesus Christ.” Jesus wept!!!

    What wonderful therapy. No good confiding in him, and this outburst only confirmed what I already believed. My drinking escalated accordingly. I was now COMPLETELY psychotic, with no help coming from ANYWHERE, just prejudice.
    Then in 1972 with the assistance of a lot of LSD I cured myself utterly and simultaneously stopped drinking. How? I STOPPED believing in God and sin and Hell as by now they all seemed so utterly absurd. The depression just vanished.

    I now believe that the above is a common syndrome in depression. However the individual cannot talk about it to ANYONE as he or she is desperately trying to drive it from their minds and with only venom coming from the clergy. He or she would probably accept implantation surgery as the only way of coping. I didn’t. I used an illegal substance that is supposed to drive one insane, no ECT, no lithium, no SRI’s, just a substance that strips away the illusions.

    I’d like to make the point that I DO NOT recommend the use of LSD for anyone in a clinical environment, i.e. labelled and drugged as this is a very paranoid environment already and could turn a lot more paranoid. I know of people who developed LSD induced schizophrenia. However, as RD Laing said they were pre-psychotic and all the drug did was accelerate the process. They are stuck half way. Once labelled and drugged they remain stuck, but can come out the other side as can anyone else as I’ve already hypothesised.

    As to anyone using LSD as a recreational drug, that’s their business. So it’s illegal, there are thousands of legal drugs which are deadly poisons. I don’t use any drugs now, legal or illegal, although I don’t hold that up as a badge of virtue as virtue is a word for the pious. Been there, done that.

    LSD is NOT a therapy. It is a TRUTH drug. It cuts through absurd contradictions like a God of limitless love would burn someone in HELL forever (even Adolph Hitler], or knowing the beginning to the end would create the Devil knowing that Nick would try to organise a coup d’etat against him, or burning the heathen in Hell simply because some slack arsed missionary didn’t go ram gobbledygook down their throats, or Paul saying one minute ‘If any man be in Christ he is a new creature, behold old things pass away, all things are become as new’ then next minute saying ‘Oh wretched man that I am, who can rescue me from this body of death. All my righteousness are but as filthy rags.’ The book of contradictions. Yet fundamentalist Christians say that there is NOT ONE SINGE CONTRADICTION in the Bible. Talk about double BLINDS.

  102. #103 Politicalguineapig
    July 10, 2012

    Oh, and about that migraine sufferer I was talking about: She and her two siblings had a bit of a sweet tooth, but didn’t drink soda- it was a rare treat. She was the only one who had migraines, even though all three ate pretty much the same diet. Before puberty she suffered from debilitating migraines once a month. After puberty, migraines were a rare event and much reduced in magnitude, even though she didn’t change her diet in any way. Makes a really strong case for hormones, don’t it?

  103. #104 Politicalguineapig
    July 10, 2012

    Narad: Tennis claims a lot of lives, apparently.So does figure skating.

  104. #105 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 11, 2012

    Politicalguineapig,
    Sure, I’m not refuting that hormonal changes are involved in migraine, as are a variety of food triggers, even certain odors. What I’m saying is that these are exacerbating factors, but the primary factor is refined sugars because of the SWINGS in BG it causes. Food processors try to put them in just about everything, but disguised in a lot of cases with other names, eg dextrose for fructose. Some people I’ve dealt with have been exquisitely sensitive to sugar and have to eliminate it totally. In a lot of cases it’s very difficult to get some foods WITHOUT sugar in it, eg peanut butter. Hence the explosion in the incidence of diabetes, in Australia at least. That’s the reason I’ve put this together, but it only includes one food trigger, what is probably the worst, tyramine.

    MIGRAINE Breaking the Sugar Addiction.
    Now it’s all very well to say cut out the sugar but if the migraineur is addicted, which he or she is almost certain to be. Saturday morning migraines are common for the obvious reason that many people lay in on Saturday so their blood sugar has had longer to fall. If you get out of bed a bit shaky and sweaty your are more likely to be in ketosis, a certain indicator of reactive hypoglycaemia and depending when and what you snacked on before going to bed So its a very good idea to get some Ames Ketostix to test your urine, better still Diastix which also test for glucose although they can’t coincide. If you ARE in ketosis this is a sure indicator of poor liver storage of glucose (as glycogen.).

    The addictive cycle goes like this. Gets out of bed hanging out for a cuppa with a fair bit of sugar in it, more likely coffee than tea. Blood sugar shoots up, feeling great for a little while then craving starts again as it plunges back down. Another cuppa and so on all day. So first off you’ve got to cut down the rest period and have a late snack of wholemeal toast with say avocado on it. Now get out of bed early and toast once again, For a sweetener in cuppa cyclemates I suppose although I hate the taste of those things. You could try glycerine as it is very sweet but doesn’t trigger an insulin release. Now your blood sugar will rise much more slowly and fall slowly with a much longer cycle. YOU SHOULD HAVE BROKEN THE CYCLE AND NOW BE TOTALLY MIGRAINE (as long as you don’t backslide)

    OKAY NOW SUGARS. Fruit is okay but if you are very sensitive cut out very sweet fruit like pineapple for a coupla weeks. Fruit juices are out as there is no fibre with them and it’s just too much sugar.. As much as it’s very good for you honey is out for a coupla months as the sucrose in it has been split by the bees digestive system to fructose glucose and there is no fibre in it.

    Now for the processed food. Chocolate and cola drinks are deadly as they contain sugar, caffeine and threobromine. Now add a fag and you have the very worst combination of all. Especially if you are very sensitive you’ve got to weed out sugars in all other processed food root and branch, Look for SUCROSE (TABLE SUGAR glucose, fructose), GLUCOSE, DEXTROSE (another name for glucose), FRUCTOSE, (although it’s supposed not elicit an insulin response), just be on the safe side, CORN SYRUP and MALTOSE (glucose, glucose) . As to the lactose in milk bear in mind that humans are the only animal that drinks milk after being weaned. Just see how you go. Once your liver bounces back you could put things back on the diet like milk but not the refined sugars. Anyway, once you’ve broken the addiction you’ll hate the taste of it.

    WHOLEMEAL BREAD, PASTA, SPAGHETTI, BISCUITS,

    BROWN RICE.

    BOOZE. Unfortunately ALL out. Meaning no parties, no pub. However, once your mood stabilises and your stress level drops as your liver comes good you won’t feel like a drink.

    EXERCISE. A lot of migraineurs do nothing one day then go at it like a bull at a gate the next and get a migraine. Obviously exercise is great and NECESSARY but it also gobbles up blood sugar, so just go easy to start off with and increase it a bit at a time.

    TYRAMINE. A substance in a lot of foods which triggers the release of NORADRENALIN. I’ll deal with that later in a separate post.
    {PS When I say blood sugar I meant blood glucose, same thing).

  105. #106 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 11, 2012

    REACTIVE HYPOGLYCAEMIA. Low Blood Sugar in Reaction to High Blood Sugar.

    If you suggested to a biochemist that refined sugar was a poison he would probably retort indignantly that it has exactly the same molecular structure as the sugar in an apple, and of course he’d be right. However, this misses the point, as refining the sugar removes it from it’s natural context of fibre, as well as minerals essential to it’s storage and metabolism e.g. zinc. It’s all about the way that refined sugar is regulated in the body vs. sugar in it’s natural context.

    The subject of blood sugar regulation is probably one of the least understood in all of medicine. It is a black hole. The reason for this is that it was suppressed most forcefully in 1972 (no great conspiracy theories). Let me explain. In 1924 a US physician Seale Harris, read a paper put out by the Canadian discoverers of insulin, Banting and Best, in which they described the symptoms of a diabetic injecting too much insulin and the extreme hypoglycaemia (low blood sugar) that ensued (there were no glucose monitors then.) These were tremors, sweats, migraines, convulsions, tachycardia, panic attacks, coma and death in the most extreme case (figures). He knew that many of his patients experienced many of these symptoms, sometimes right out of the blue, like panic attacks. Harris concluded that the culprit was refined sugar in that being stripped of the natural fibre of the cane it was absorbed much too fast into the bloodstream so that the pancreas overreacted, producing far too much insulin which caused the severe hypoglycaemia.

    He coined the term for the syndrome ‘Reactive Hypoglycaemia’, that is, low blood sugar in reaction to high blood sugar or hyperglycaemia. He wrote a paper on migraine which received good acceptance at the time, and this term and the syndrome became orthodoxy for many years. However it eventually began to get up the nose of processed food manufacturers who used refined sugar in their products. By this time the US govt., like so many others, was cutting back on funding of research into health and universities had to rely more and more on said food manufacturers for grants, with large strings attached of course. Principal among these manufacturers were the giant chocolate and soft drink manufacturer and cola manufacturer (you’ve go no idea of who I mean of course). In 1972 these companies demanded that the US AMA drop the term ‘reactive hypoglycaemia’ or they would take their money elsewhere. The AMA caved in and the term fell into ridicule even by GP’s, as it is today.

    The 5 hour GTT or glucose tolerance test, a test necessary to clearly demonstrate the abnormal BG swing ceased to exist and of course today no doctor or path lab would do it because of the time involved i.e. the cost. (Actually since I wrote this a number of clinics now do it but it useless as they only test every hour.) I’ve done quiet a few myself, including a couple on myself. I’ve added a range of monitors to the test, blood pressure and heart rate monitor, finger temperature monitor, skin conductance monitor, as well as using Ames Multistix to test urine, 8 tests instead of the normal 1 with Glucostix or 2 with Diastix.

    Medicare Australia will not fund this test, only the 2 or 3 hr diabetes test which is totally useless because of the short time involved and the infrequency of the tests (one each hour). It is ironic that it was these two companies who were the prime movers in this repression of truth, because BOTH use cocoa and a lot of sugar. Cocoa contains caffeine and a caffeine like substance called threobromine. These three combined cause by far the most unstable blood sugar of all. That giant cola manufacturer buys caffeine from coffee decaffeinators to add to their product to make it even more addictive. Now I’ve studied this subject extensively for forty years and it is very clear that the main problem is not the pancreas but the inability for the liver to store glucose as glycogen and the extremely convoluted and damaging path that the body has to take to restore the blood sugar level to normal following the fall.
    The complete understanding of blood sugar regulation can now only get worse as universities are dumbed down worldwide to attract foreign students and their fees or go bust. I have been told at both the Lorne Vic Aust Cancer and Genome conferences I attended for many years that biochemists no longer study metabolism, which is absolutely absurd. The internet seems to have had a negative effect in this regard as researchers just go online to see just the part of a metabolic pathway they need to conduct an experiment instead of seeing the whole picture. Anyway to work out blood sugar regulation requires a lot more than biochemistry as it also involves at least endocrinology, haematology and general physiology.

  106. #107 Politicalguineapig
    July 11, 2012

    Mr Hill: Sugar substitutes are even more horrible then sugar. (Which is a good natural product and doesn’t deserve the hysteria it’s treated with.) I come from a family with a high risk of cancer, so I try not to use sugar substitutes at all.
    Secondly, you make it sound like everyone who enjoys coffee, tea and sweets suffers from migraines. That isn’t the case.
    Furthermore exercise is great, but it isn’t compatible with a high-protein diet. Taking in a lot of meat is only good for weight lifters; if you plan on swimming or running, carbs are your friend.

  107. #108 Composer99
    July 11, 2012

    paul hill:

    Please get your own goddamn blog and stop spaming this one.

    Thank you.

  108. #109 Composer99
    July 11, 2012

    Sorry, spamming.

    Though maybe ‘spaming’ will go the way of pwn. :)

  109. #110 Krebiozen
    July 11, 2012

    Paul Hill,

    The subject of blood sugar regulation is probably one of the least understood in all of medicine. It is a black hole.

    No it isn’t! It’s once of the best understood areas in medicine and has had an enormous amount of research done on it. Just because you have a distorted idea of how it all works doesn’t mean that you are right and the rest of the scientific world is wrong.

    I have spent most of my life working in clinical biochemistry and it distresses me to see you mangling it like this. Please stop, or go and learn some real science, at least spend some time on PubMed and get up to date. You are apparently mixing up a bunch of stuff you read once and misunderstood with complete nonsense you have come across on quack alternative medicine sites and leaping to completely unwarranted conclusions which are contradicted by decades of real research done by thousands of real scientists over several decades. You are a fine example of the arrogance of ignorance in action.

    By the way, a medium sized baked potato contains more calories than a cup of coffee with six heaped teaspoons of sugar (which does not spontaneously hydrolyse to glucose and fructose as you claim), and since potato has a higher glycemic index than sucrose, the potato will lead to a larger and more rapid spike in blood glucose than the coffee.

  110. #111 Mrs Woo
    July 11, 2012

    @Mr Hill – just because you cannot get on ScienceBlogs does not mean you cannot have your own blog. There are many blogs out there that even have free hosted blogs (including WordPress which has free and then things you can pay for).

    Right now it’s very distracting to have your stuff scattered everywhere as it is and sometimes completely off-topic of the real post.

    It also makes you look very disorganized and possibly unbalanced as you jump from topic to topic. Perhaps if you had your own blog you could put things in a better order and share your theories with a larger audience?

  111. #112 Narad
    July 11, 2012

    Take a lot more and you’ll end up with LSD induced schizophrenia and more than likely end up institutionalized.

    Unfortunately, your assertion has been tested and found lacking. I played host to a fellow who took the stuff twice a week for months–stiff doses during the week and whoppers on the weekend. No “schizophrenia,” no institutionalization, not really much of anything except developing a taste for very obscure recordings. He found it “refreshing.” You’re trying to extend your own experience into a universal.

    LSD is NOT a therapy. It is a TRUTH drug.

    Again, no. If you’re having trouble on a “big one” and latch on to intellectualizations, there’s no more guarantee that you’ll “cut through absurd contradictions,” rather than having them firmly cemented in your cranium, than there is of “getting elves” from DMT (McKenna) or being contacted by the Earth Coincidence Control Office from ketamine (Lilly). The history of LSD is littered with screwball occultists.

    All the same, it sounds like a good thing that youi’re eschewing intoxicants.

  112. #113 JGC
    July 11, 2012

    Harris concluded that the culprit was refined sugar in that being stripped of the natural fibre of the cane it was absorbed much too fast into the bloodstream …>

    “In being stripped of the natural fibre of the cane”? Anyone have any suggestions what that might possibly mean?

  113. #114 Krebiozen
    July 11, 2012

    JGC,

    “In being stripped of the natural fibre of the cane”? Anyone have any suggestions what that might possibly mean?

    Chewing? In Egypt, India (and Green Street in east London where I took a stroll today), you can buy a glass of pure natural sugar cane juice, freshly crushed out of the raw cane by a scary Victorian-looking contraption while you wait. That saves you the effort of chewing the cane, swallowing the juice and spitting out the fiber in the traditional manner. It still won’t spike your blood glucose as much as a baked potato though…

  114. #115 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 11, 2012

    Krebiozen,
    You are aware, I suppose, that a potato contains starch, which is a polymer of glucose, long chains with side branches and as such is vastly more complex than sucrose which is simply a disaccharide of fructose glucose. The digestion of starch is a two stage affair, unlike sucrose which is just one. First it is hydrolysed to maltose, beginning in the mouth, then to glucose in the duodenum by the enzyme maltase. Thus it’s digestion takes much longer than that of sucrose.

    Now we come to its the assimilation of those glucose molecules. A potato contains fibre, unlike refined sugar, and fibre exerts osmotic pressure, pulling against the absorption of the the glucose molecules.

    You claim that the spud will cause a bigger spike than the coffee, but you don’t designate just how much refined sugar is in the coffee.and how big the spud is.

    Now in the interests of scientific objectivity I must assume that you have conducted PROPERLY DONE 5 hr GTT’s using a spud vs a cuppa coffee with x amounts of refined sucrose in it and are thus able to qualify your assertions with proof.

    As to my science, it has been pure molecular biology, biochemistry, endocrinology, hematology, general physiology, ie multidisciplinary. As to all the research you talk about it is much ado about nothing. If it was going backward that would be a vast improvement. Pleading with me to vamoose does suggest a degree of desperation creeping in as the tide turns.

  115. #116 paul hill
    July 11, 2012

    Politicalguineapig
    Why doesn’t anybody read my stuff before making comment which are way off beam. This is happening time and time again. I DON’T advocate sugar substitutes as I say they are horrible myself. I just advocate them as a stopgap when breaking the addiction, maybe just for a few days and suggest trying glycerine. instead, then having tea or coffee without ANY sweetener.

    Same with the sugar being a natural product, just read my stuff properly as I am wasting my time going over the same thing over and over again.

    Again I don’t say that everybody that everyone that enjoys coffee, tea and sweets suffers migraine. It depend on the degree of liver pathology, pancreatic insulin response etc. But I will say that eating a lot of refined sugar is VERY harmful, migraines or NO migraine.

    Meat is not the only source of protein. It is in everything, fruit veges, nuts and so on. Meat is a HIGH protein source. Anyway many of the amino acids of protein convert to glucose in the liver via gluconeogenesis so it is still a source of carb. Just takes longer as protein metabolism takes place after carb. I don’t advocate a meat diet as I am an almost vegetarian my self’.

  116. #117 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 11, 2012

    Narad,
    The more frequently you take LSD the less effect it has, hence the label ‘antiaddictive’. By many of your comments so far I would have to question YOUR designation of this bloke as sane. But that’s okay.

    As Laing and many other have stated it is being PREDISPOSED to schizophrenia that’s important. That most certainly includes religion, refined sugar consumption and liver pathology, same as with migraine. Go back and read my post on panic attacks. Then there is what Leary called ‘set and setting’. If you live in dangerous digs and with the drug being illegal, hence the chance of being busted whilst tripping, these create a setting predisposed to psychosis. Set is the mood you’re in when you take the LSD.

    As to long term use of LSD reinforcing the religious belief of a God of love burning someone in Hell forever, no Narad I don’t quite think so. That is a perfectly reasonable juxtaposition between two totally incompatible and irreconcilable opposites and as such is symptomatic of paranoid, herbephrinic and catatonic schizophrenia.

    Like I said, one has to keep going through a vast minfeild of the most appalling mumbo jumbo as I did. Buddhism, Hinduism, astrology, flying saucers, Ouija boards, and now finally ‘EVIDENCE’ BASED MEDICINE. with needing LSD just these blogs.

  117. #118 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 11, 2012

    It is a pain in the arse Science Blogs not having EDIT buttons (and Reply and Report buttons). The end of the last line should read ‘withOUT needing LSD, just these blogs.

  118. #119 Politicalguineapig
    July 11, 2012

    Paul Hill: It intrigues me, all the talk about genes and drugs in the treatment of depression as if there just HAS to be some inheritance factor involved.

    There IS an inheritance factor involved, though like schizophrenia, environment also plays a role. If things are going badly for someone, it will trigger an episode of depression. Humans are complex, Mr. Hill. You think you’ve found a simple answer- and of course, you’re wrong.
    Also, SSRIs, not SRIs.

  119. #120 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 12, 2012

    Politicalguineapig,
    That is what so called ‘science’ WANTS you to believe because there is no money for drug companies, doctors, researchers etc. in DIY cures. I’ve been on blog after blogs forums etc. in the last 6 months, kicked off all of them, usually when I question papers on the metabolism of drugs. ie the way they are broken down. I went onto academia.edu set up my blog then went in search of someone on the forum to talk to. Found eight psychologist/ psychiatrists. Started messaging them on the subject of schizophrenia, Got very cautious replies. Then I read a paper on the metabolism of the antipsychotic Clozapine, how it causes agrunularcytosis, destruction of a class of white blood cells. A lot of things didn’t make sense and I got to wondering who funded this research. (Read Harriet Washington’s stuff on this subject). Anyway I messaged the shrinks on this. Two hours later my account was locked and I was out with NO explanation and couldn’t get one. This is a drug that has killed a lot of people.

    Okay, the strongest suspect was one Joel Lamoure, London Ontario. Now just GET THIS. A Fundamentalist Christian minister on Sunday, a practicing psychiatrist through the week as well as a lecturer in psychiatry at two Canadian universities.

    Now he claimed to be anti-drug in messages he had sent me. But after getting booted out of academia.edu I go online and find out that he is also a PHARMACIST and a lecturer in pharmacy at both these universities.

    So I send him an email, not letting on that I suspected him of getting me locked out of academia.edu. I got pretty heavy suggesting that anyone prescribing Clozapine and a with a patient dying as a consequence should be charged with MURDER. I also said that I was going to send all of the details of this to the Canadian National Broadcaster.
    Now you should have seen the email that came back from him. It was almost indecipherable, as if he was having a panic attack whilst writing it.

    Ethically, drug companies are on a par with the tobacco companies and there probably are cross shareholdings between them. This is what I am uncovering. Getting irrefutable evidence, not just yelling and screaming about BIG PHARMA.

    At the 19th International Genetics Conference I attended in Melbourne 2003, a lecturer from Tel Aviv Uni did a talk on bipolar. A slide came on the screen which said ‘Bipolar is an inherited disorder.’ Then straight below it said, ‘No genes have been discovered for bipolar.’ So what is it which is inherited. I talked to the lecturer after the talk and it was obvious that he had no comprehension of the behavior of someone with bipolar, eg buying a heap of friends a present on the high then sinking into a suicidal depressive state when the presents had been rejected and the bill came in. That is a direct connection between high and low. Yin and Yang.

    It’s the oldest cliche of all 50% genes and 50% environment. Playing it safe by having a bet both ways. Research into people curing their own disorders would have no source of funding, especially as governments have pulled out of funding universities and teaching hospitals. Funding primarily has to come from drug and food giants like bloody Coca Cola.

    I’ve no doubt that a small minority of cases of depression are hereditary, but would probably almost all involve mutations in genes associated with blood sugar regulation, ie glycogen storage diseases.

    I have no axe to grind, no commercial interest whatsoever, no allegiance to any form of treatment. I’m after two things, seeing people cured and getting credibility from these cures, not by publicity, just from messaging me on a blog, forum etc.. If you suffer depression or whatever it is, I’m on your side and will send you any information that I have. If that’s what you want I will put my email address in my next post. Veritas.

  120. #121 Krebiozen
    July 12, 2012

    Paul Hill,

    You are aware, I suppose, that a potato contains starch, which is a polymer of glucose, long chains with side branches and as such is vastly more complex than sucrose which is simply a disaccharide of fructose glucose. The digestion of starch is a two stage affair, unlike sucrose which is just one. First it is hydrolysed to maltose, beginning in the mouth, then to glucose in the duodenum by the enzyme maltase. Thus it’s digestion takes much longer than that of sucrose.

    The bonds between glucose molecules in starch are rapidly broken down in the digestive system, beginning in the mouth as you point out, and absorbed in the duodenum. Refined sugar is broken down at a similar rate, but that process doesn’t start until it reaches the duodenum and sucrose is only half fructose, which accounts for its smaller effect on blood glucose.

    Now we come to its the assimilation of those glucose molecules. A potato contains fibre, unlike refined sugar, and fibre exerts osmotic pressure, pulling against the absorption of the the glucose molecules.

    Only soluble fiber exerts osmotic pressure and most of the fiber in potatoes is insoluble. A medium sized potato contains about 1 gram of soluble fiber and 37 grams of carbohydrate. Anyway, glucose is actively absorbed (Google “glucose transporters) and osmosis does not exert pressure on glucose molecules, osmosis refers to the movement of water across semi-permable membrances.

    By the way, proteins have very little effect on osmolarity although you claimed they did earlier – in relatively healthy people you can closely estimate plasma osmolarity in mOsm/L by adding sodium and potassium concentration (in mmol/L) together, doubling it (to account for the associated anions) and adding the glucose concentration (again in mmol/L). Proteins and fiber do not enter into it. I know this from comparing calculated plasma osmolarities with those I have personally measured using an osmometer.

    You claim that the spud will cause a bigger spike than the coffee, but you don’t designate just how much refined sugar is in the coffee.and how big the spud is.

    Yes I did. I specified a hefty 6 heaped teaspoons of sucrose (which weighs 36 grams comprising 96 kCal with a glycemic index of 65) and a medium sized baked potato (173 grams comprising 168 kcal with a glycemic index of 111). See the USDA natinal nutrient database and the Harvard Health glycemic index list. Refined sugar isn’t listed but if I add another link this will go into moderation. You can easily find a reputable source for the glycemic index and energy content of sucrose. Notice on the Harvard list that a 250 ml serving of Coca Cola has a glycemic load of 16 compared to the glycemic load of a baked potato of 33. That means, by definition, that Coca Cola will cause half the increase in blood glucose that the baked potato causes.

    Now in the interests of scientific objectivity I must assume that you have conducted PROPERLY DONE 5 hr GTT’s using a spud vs a cuppa coffee with x amounts of refined sucrose in it and are thus able to qualify your assertions with proof.

    I haven’t personally, but many people have and there is no question in my mind that the information above about the relative glycemic indices of potatoes and sucrose is accurate. I have measured the breakdown of potato starch to glucose over time by adding amylase in an alkaline environment and then measuring reducing sugar concentration with Benedict’s solution and compared it to the breakdown of sucrose to glucose and fructose by sucrase. That was one of the practical examinations in my early biomedical sciences education. I have also carried out several studies monitoring people’s blood glucose at very short time intervals (as little as 10 minutes) over long periods of time, and have never seen any evidence of the post-prandial spikes in blood glucose you describe, except in diabetics. That’s why blood is taken at the intervals it is in GTTs, because we know from practical experiments that it is not necessary to take blood more frequently.

    As to my science, it has been pure molecular biology, biochemistry, endocrinology, hematology, general physiology, ie multidisciplinary.

    A lot of the information you have posted here is incorrect and/or out of date. I simply don’t have the time or energy to go into any more detail, but I can promise you that a great deal of what you claim goes against what I was taught and many personal observations I have made over many years working in cllinical biochemistry.

    As to all the research you talk about it is much ado about nothing. If it was going backward that would be a vast improvement.

    What a breathtakingly arrogant statement! I have personally known many dedicated research scientists over the years and have had the privilege of working with many brilliant people. The clinical laboratory I trained in shared staff with a Medical Research Council laboratory in Cambridge UK and was also associated with the Dunn Human Nutrition Unit (now the MRC Mitochondrial Biology Unit). These are people who published a great deal of ground-breaking work on nutrition, including work on blood glucose regulation. To dismiss just the work these people did in the years I knew them as “much ado about nothing” is sheer ignorance, and work of similar or greater caliber and importance is carried out by thousands of scientists all over the world and has been for decades. You appear to have very little clue about scientific research.

    Pleading with me to vamoose does suggest a degree of desperation creeping in as the tide turns.

    I’m not pleading with you to vamoose. I’m pleading with you to go back to basics and check some of your facts before posting any more vast tracts of nonsense. You have an internet connection which allows to access to a vast wealth of information. Stick to reputable scientific sources and do some serious reading, please. I’m not desperate, and the tide is not turning. You are clearly an intelligent man, but you appear to have swallowed some inaccurate information that has led you to erroneous conclusions that you apparently are unwilling to re-examine.

  121. #122 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 12, 2012

    The thing is people don’t sit down to a great big plate full of potatoes, whereas they pour Coca Cola, other soft drinks, fruit juices down their throats like there was no tomorrow. Just about every processed food has got sugar added to it for no apparent reason. Are you saying that there is no connection between this huge consumption of refined sugars and any pathology whatsoever. No connection with migraine, diabetes, schizophrenia, bipolar, panic attacks, epilepsy etc. Are you saying there is no such thing as reactive hypoglycaemia, or if there is it has no association with any pathology.

    The Mayo clinic talks about reactive hypoglycaemia, then says it’s causes are poorly understood, possibly a poor glucagon response, seeming to indicate that the pancreas is not making enough glucagon, but doesn’t postulate that glucagon is not working because of liver pathology, ie, impaired glycogen storage.

    It is this liver pathology, combined with even mild reactive hypoglycaemia that I focus on. Then there is the extremely convoluted path that the body has to take to raise BG when liver glycogen is exhausted, ie tap the skeletal muscle store and the SYMPTOMS of that difficulty. I put all this together in my post on PANIC ATTACKS in ‘Medicine and Evolution’. I’ll have to post the link in another comment.

    The thing is with migraine I have PROVEN that refined sugar is the major cause of migraine with a little booklet I wrote about 18 years ago. On woman had been having migraines for 28 years, had been to GP’s, neurologists, even a shrink when a doctor suggested it was psychosomatic. Read my booklet, got off the sugar completely and the migraines vanished, along with the mood-swing. This was just one person.

    How I cottoned on to the connection was when I did my very first 5 hr GTT, on myself. My BG didn’t go up very high but when it started to fall I became VERY confused. You see I, being an electronic technician, had added skin conductance monitor, finger temperature monitor as well as a blood pressure-heart rate monitor. Thus it was trying to do all of these things ON MYSELF and record them that REVEALED the confusion. Whereas someone having just the standard 5 hr GTT DONE ON THEM wouldn’t notice it..

    I was really excited. Here was the confusion before a migraine. When my BG bottomed out the confusion disappeared to be replaced by mild depression. Quite euphoric on the high, depressed on the low. Now the depression was obviously mild for two obvious reasons, I could see it’s cause and the excitement of my discovery. And of course because I would never scoff 2 ounces of glucose, ANY refined sugar as I had given it up (along with religion and booze).

    Later on I did a 5 hr GTT having just a slice of toast with Vegemite, avocado and cheese on it. Now I couldn’t quantify the amount of starch in this but the curve was much flatter and NO noticeable mood swing.

    Then I started to do 5 hr GTT’s on friends and I inadvertently induced panic attacks in two of them. Now they weren’t letting on why but wanted out. Their finger temperature in both cases had dropped 3 DEGREES C. I asked them were they having panic attacks and both reluctantly admitted it. Noradrenalin, i figured.

    Later I did a 5 hr GTT on a woman using the standard 1.75 grammes per kg body weight amount of glucose used for the 3 hr diabetes test. By this time I’d learned to test every 15 minutes at the start to catch the peak. Her BG started at 6, shot up to 16 in about a half hour from memory, then fell to 4 with the hour from start, a 400 % drop, a HUGE swing. She was a fairly heavy drinker and had had hepatitis many years before. No migraine, just very tired and depressed on the fall and some glucose in her urine. It was with this test that I began to think of liver pathology.

    This is where my stuff is unique, being an electronic tech and adding all the electronic stuff to the 5 hr GTT which NEVER seems to be by any lab online. I had been building biofeedback equipment for a few years and intended to add a GSR, EEG and EMG which I built. Then I was forcibly bankrupted in 1988 and had the lot stolen and have been on a downhill slope ever since.

    I’ll address other issues in a separate post.

  122. #123 Composer99
    July 12, 2012

    At least Th1Th2′s posts were short & pithy.

  123. #124 Lawrence
    July 12, 2012

    SQUIRREL!!!!!!

  124. #125 Politicalguineapig
    July 12, 2012

    Paul Hill: You CANNOT understand ANY form of psychiatric illness unless you go through it your self and come out the other side.

    Nope. Try again please. Even though two people can be diagnosed with the same illness, that doesn’t mean they’ll have the same experience or respond to the same treatment.

    Paul Hill: As to violence committed by schizophrenics, no not once they are medicated by the most poisonous, toxic of all medications on Earth, the antiphychotics.

    Sigh. Again, wrong. And you misspelled anti-psychotics.

    http://www.schizophrenia.com/poverty.html

    And you’re conflating schizophrenia with depression. Again.
    Just one of the many, many google results I got.

    Also, who the hell puts sugar in TEA? That’s gotta be a high crime, unless you’ve got a really bitter blend of black tea.

  125. #126 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 12, 2012

    First off I appreciate your comment as it is the very first one that has intelligent content. Before you were just one of the mob slagging me. Go back and take a look at what I have copped from the very beginning and it goes on and on and on.

    Darwy
    Røde grøde med fløde
    June 27, 8:03 am

    That’s a whole ‘lotta canned spam there, Paul. Too bad it doesn’t really say much of anything, because 2/3rds of it is bunk.

    That is moronic. If I was a teenager subject the amount of cyber bullying I’d have hung myself about ten times over. Now as to research. I have PROVEN that refined sugar causes migraine. Yet when I put a post onto migrainecental or whatever it’s called, the moderator, Ultimate Guru she calls herself, closed my account and locked me out because I didn’t agree with her. No abuse, no criticism of her. This is the way it has been on forum after forum for the last 6 months, very drug oriented forums. I can only go on what I have read that Coca Cola, Cadburies Schweppes and other food giants, AND pharmaceutical companies pour a huge amount of money into medical and food research. If so this must corrupt research ENORMOUSLY and going by the problems I have had in getting anywhere just on migraine alone this is so.

    As to multidisciplinary research or the lack thereof I can only go on what I have experienced in the Lorne Cancer and Genome conferences up until about 5 years ago and it was bloody appalling. As I have previously stated several delegates told me that biochemists no longer study metabolism. Now I don’t really know exactly what they meant by that. Did it mean that they just went online to look at a specific metabolic pathway when conducting an experiment or what.

    When I taught myself biochemistry starting in 1972, all of the major metabolic pathways, Embden-Meyerhoff, citric acid, penthose phosphate shunt etc. had ALL been elucidated and as there was no web then I just crammed them into my head, side branches, intermediates, feedback loops etc. Missing just ONE critical one, eg muscles not expressing Glucose-6-phosphatase, could mean I’d miss the key to a whole GROUP of pathologies.

    I just cannot see how not learning these pathways, by what is essentially rote, can be replaced by just having them online when needed. Another one was acetate before combining with enzyme CoA piling up due to TCA cycle being overloaded, binding to a site on pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase, activating it, it then turning OFF pyruvate dehydrogenase. Pyruvate got no other option than be hydrogenated to lactic acid by lactate hydrogenase which is then expelled from the cell.. The confusion online seemed to be that the role of DCA (dichloracetate) was wrong, that it activated or agonised instead of ANTAGONISED acetate. Then there is another feedback loop from citrate back to the TOP of the glycolitic pathway, fructose-6-phosphatase ? turning off glycolysis if citric acid piles up, (over loaded electron transport system perhaps?). Thus I reckon that it’s seeing all of these feedback loops, intermediate in-out pathways etc. SIMULTANEOUSLY in your HEAD that is MANDATORY, when trying to resolve a problem.

  126. #127 Krebiozen
    July 12, 2012

    Paul Hill,
    Refined sugar can cause obesity and tooth decay. Regularly consuming more calories than you use causes obesity. Obesity is associated with insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes, as well as various other problems (cardiovascular disease and cancer for example). That’s about as far as the evidence for a connection between refined sugar and poor health goes, as far as I can see.

    Got any real evidence to the contrary? Evidence that schizophrenia, epilepsy or bipolar disorder are linked in any way at all to refined sugar consumption, impaired glucose regulation or liver dysfunction for example?

  127. #128 Denice Walter
    July 12, 2012

    In alt med world, sugar is the cause of many physical and psychological ills: ADHD can be cured by diet they say. Many woo-meisters promote a low GI diet in order to prevent cancer as well as obesity. An interesting thing I’ve noticed: like the vaccines/ autism meme, sugar causes ADD/ADHD or as above, SMI, as if these conditions originated from the external world rather than developing from within via genes or genes mediated by enviromental condiitons.,

    Sounds a bit like Object Relations Psychoanalytic theory *a la* Klein ( cast out bad/ retain good) or Genesis- the first people were good but evil and corruption came from the Other ( the Serpent).

  128. #129 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 12, 2012

    Oh Jesus,
    I might as well bash me head into a bloody tree. Because naturopaths start with the presumption that the symptom is NOT the disorder, thus to suppress the symptom is to exacerbate the underlying disorder I gravitate to that. idea. It pans out just about every time when an objective (non Dawkinist) multidisciplinary approach is made of the symptom. That is what I have done. So no, no papers I can refer to except naturophathic which are riddled with flying saucers. In other words they might not be good on a scientific explanation, but they go on what they see, including using a 5 hr GTT. Thus I have a foot in BOTH camps. Now I was going to put a link into my thing on panic attacks but I’ll post it here. Please don’t appraise it according to papers on Pub Med or wherever but by what it says. That is why I go into so much detail, because this is MY stuff, probably completely alone. That’s what I thought you’d do with the above post. Denice please leave out the religious assertions as I go out of my way to be as blasphemous as possible to take the piss out. Incidentally I’m not trying to start WW3.

  129. #130 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 13, 2012

    DISORDERS RELATED TO BLOOD SUGAR DEREGULATION, ie SCHIZOPHRENIA, PANIC ATTACKS, EPILEPSY, ASTHMA. (All brand new stuff and all mine.)

    There is a very common misconception that certain individuals have some sort of endemically low blood glucose, ie persistent hypoglycaemia. Normal regulation but set to a low average. There CAN be long periods of low blood glucose but primarily in response to a sharp peak, due to consumption of refined sugar, monosaccharides etc., followed by a deep low. This low is because the pancreas overreacts, thereby pushing BG (blood glucose) way down below the fasting level followed by a VERY SLOW RECOVERY. When a BG reading is taken during that period the assumption is that it is like that all the time.

    Hence the doctor prescribing a migraineur I met TWELVE CUPS OF COFFEE A DAY WITH SIX HEAPED TEASPOONS OF SUGAR IN EACH CUP. Get it up and keep it up. Now I know that’s very difficult to believe, but he got shitty when I said ‘you’re kidding’. When his BG slipped through the sugar net he copped migraines so excruciating he would have to inject morphine and they would last up to 4 days. Being so nauseas during the attack he couldn’t just scoff more sugar. So that’s the prolonged period of hypoglycaemia that creates the confusion and it’s a product of both impaired liver storage AND the livers inability to MAKE glucose via gluconeogenesis, ie OVERALL liver pathology. In his case he was prescribed beta blockers to limit the blood pressure rise associated with the migraine. However these are a major factor in prolonging the migraine as they don’t just block the effect of adrenalin on myocardium but also on fat and skeletal muscle cells, thereby blocking gluconeogenesis because glycerol from fat cells and lactic acid from skeletal muscle cells is needed .

    THE PHYSIOLOGY of BLOOD SUGAR DEREGULATION ASSOCIATED WITH PANIC ATTACK, SCHIZOPHRENIA ETC.
    This is the theory of what is taking place in the body and brain leading up to and during a panic attack.. Assume that the dietary sugar has gone into the bloodstream too quickly and glucose shoots up to be followed by a big fall to a very low level because too much insulin has been released. Insulin release is BIPHASIC, two peaks, one immediately and one around 20 minutes later. Beta cells of the pancreas normally retain some insulin from their previous release, whereas de novo synthesis takes around 20 minutes, ie transcription, splicing, translation, folding, adding di-sulphide links and zinc binding.

    The first immediate insulin peak nips in the bud any BG rise from the quick entry of glucose into the bloodstream AND IS LOST with reactive hypoglycaemia due to the pancreas releasing ALL stored insulin each time. So without the first immediate release there is the 20 minute delay combined with the premature flood of glucose into the bloodstream. So the entry of glucose and the release of insulin are hopelessly OUT OF PHASE with each other. Thus the pancreas produces TOO MUCH insulin, probably because of impaired GIP axis detection and BG is driven down to an abnormal low as it is taken up and stored. The bigger the peak the lower the low.

    Because the liver is not storing much glucose as glycogen, most of it has gone into the skeletal muscles instead, so muscles have to take over the role of the disordered liver. But muscles were not ‘designed’ for this role. Hence the very convoluted reaction that follows. Normally GLUCAGON is released by the pancreas in response to a fall in BG to bring it back up by acting on liver glycogen, so that the glycogen is hydrolysed to glucose and this is released into the bloodstream. But because of impaired liver storage glucagon release is ineffectual. Glucagon also has a mild effect on the heart to slightly raise blood pressure.

    With a sudden ‘fight or flight’ adrenalin is released by the adrenals and it too acts on the liver to raise BG, as well as acting on the heart to increase it’s output, constricting blood vessels supplying the GI tract and associated organs and kidneys, whilst dilating those to liver, skeletal muscles, heart, lungs and brain. In other words reducing blood flow from organs not essential to ‘fight or flight’ whilst increasing it to those that are

    THE CENTRAL MECHANISM.
    The following, as far as I know, is is exclusive to me and the result of 42 years of research. It is hypothetical based on an arrangement of the known bits and pieces. If there is ONE mechanism central to understanding schizophrenia, migraine, epilepsy etc. it is THIS. Muscle cells cannot release glucose back into the bloodstream as they do not express the enzyme Glucose-6-phosphatase, whereas the liver does. With impaired liver storage of glycogen, the muscles have to take over the role of glucose storage but because they cannot release it as glucose have to ferment it to lactic acid instead for conversion in the liver to glucose. Adrenalin is required to increase the metabolic rate of the muscles and dilate the blood vessels to wash the lactic acid out, however, the dilated blood vessels supply oxygen which stops fermentation. Alternatively noradrenalin does constrict the blood vessel, but has no metabolic effect on muscle cells and of course restricts blood flow. Enter muscle spasm, hot and cold flushes as the two hormones alternate. It seems to be hot first followed by cold.

    NORADRENALIN is associated with extreme fear, but here it’s not fear in response to an external perceived threat. The threat is internal and NOT understood by the person experiencing it thus aggravating the attack. The crisis is life threatening cerebral hypoglycaemia (low blood glucose in the brain) which can only be alleviated by increased lactic acid synthesis by the muscles. Liver pathology means not just impaired liver glycogen storage but also impaired gluconeogenesis (the liver making glucose from lactic acid) thereby necessitating even more secretion (release) of adrenalin and noradrenalin by the adrenal glands and in the brain ‘Panic attack’ exacerbated (made worse) by the individual not understanding what on Earth is going on. “I must be going mad”. (and all that entails).

    THE RUNAWAY CASCADE OF FEAR.
    The brain metabolises 25-40% of the body’s glucose. The more neural activity (thought), the more glucose consumption. The more glucose consumption, the worse the cerebral hypoglycaemia and with it the greater the secretion of adrenalin and noradrenalin. ‘Jesus, I’m going to die, right now when I am least prepared for it’

    Enter HYPERSUGGESTABILITY plus religion, almost universal in schizophrenia. The more frightened you become the greater the imagination for possibilities. ‘I’m going to burn in Hell. I might lose my mind and go berserk!!! People are coming to get me, try me, and burn me at the stake. They can read my mind. God can read my mind and I can’t stop blasphemies pouring into my mind. Every atom in the Universe is conspiring to get me. Everything looks, sounds, smells and feels sinister and threatening. (Visual contrast is altered making shadows much deeper and sinister, eg in Cyprus pines.) Hell. I AM IN HELL. (More glucose more noradrenalin) TERROR and it is forever and ever. Thousands of volts of electricity are pouring through me (hypersensitivity to greatly elevated sympathetic nervous transmission).

    Now frozen stiff in a catatonic trance. Noradrenalin now predominates to constrict the blood supply to skeletal muscles persistently, along with immobility of the body to conserve energy. Catatonia is the worst case scenario and can go for DAYS ON END in a psyche hospital. However it doesn’t happen these days with the advent of the antipsychotics in 1950. This state is the most enigmatic of all as the schizophrenic catatonic appears to be totally non compost (joke), not even blinking, whereas the precise opposite is the reality, he or she is HYPER aware.

    Thus when one intern jokes to another after waving his hand over the patients eyes and seeing no response whatsoever, ‘Vegetable, maybe a lobotomy might be in order’, he does not show a great deal of sensitivity. This is the very thing the patient is terrified of, ie LOSING HIS MIND. Mind you, how CAN the intern know without having been through it himself. He could by taking a big dose of LSD in paranoid circumstances as I did, many times, although each time I tried to avoid it. However, each time it happened I experienced the most indescribable nirvana as I came out of the catatonia and it seemed that I had to go down into hell to ascend into heaven.

    It was trying to have nirvana without hell that I began to design and build a range of biofeedback equipment. But I had to study neurology to know how the ‘trip’ worked. That was futile without endocrinology and biochemistry and haematology and general physiology and on and on. In the back of my mind over all of these years was to try to understand the catatonic coma. Having been a Christian it became obvious that Lazarus was not dead but catatonic. Indeed Jesus said, ‘He is not dead but sleepeth.’ Then a few months ago the last pieces fell into place.

    COMING OUT THE OTHER SIDE.
    So how does the the individual pull out of the attack? Going into ketosis? Part of the process of gluconeogenesis is ketosis where fatty acids from fat cells are broken down in the liver to ketones, three different kinds. Two of these, betahydroxybutyric acid and diacetate, when in excess, come out in the urine and can be tested for using Ames Ketostix, a good idea straight after a panic attack. One, acetone, comes out in the breath as the “smell of rotting apples”. Most body cells adapt to using ketones but like ketosis itself this takes time especially with liver pathology.

    Gluconeogenesis is also impaired thus delaying restoration of BG to normal. It is a complex process, requiring 3 substrates, lactic acid and amino acids from the muscles and glycerol from fat cells. Fatty acids are also released from the adipose fat cells, not as substrate for gluconeogenesis, but to provide the energy to drive the process, as gluconeogenesis is an energy negative process unlike glycolysis in the opposite direction which has a net production of 2 ATP’s. Fatty acids are first beta oxidised to ketones in liver cells, then to acetylCoA which enters the TCA (tricarboxalic acid, Kreb, citric acid) cycle to produce the ATP needed to drive gluconeogenesis. Carbon skeletons from some skeletal muscle derived amino acids, after deammination, also enter the TCA cycle as intermediates and are also metabolised to produce ATP..

    Glycerol from adipose fat cell triglycerides and other skeletal muscle derived amino acid carbon skeletons, enter the gluconeogenesis pathway as substrate for the synthesis of glucose. Ketone production by the liver by far exceeds that needed to drive gluconeogenesis and excess ketones poor into the bloodstream for use by most body cells ONCE THEY ADAPT by up regulating the associated genes. However that adaption is also delayed so body cells continue to require glucose for days. Obviously transcription, splicing, translation ect. of the associated genes requires energy but as the BG is so low there is not enough fuel for these processes.

    The two main endocrine hormones required for the process of ketosis and gluconeogenesis are cortisol and adrenalin. Cotisol acts on the skeletal muscles to get them to release amino acids whilst adrenalin acts on adipose fat cell to get them to break down triglycerides to fatty acids and glycerol for release into the bloodstream. Whilst not necessary for fat catabolism, cortisol also acts in synergism with adrenalin in this task and greatly increases the supply of fatty acids and glycerol to the liver.

    EPILEPSY.
    I always ask myself what do symptoms do. Now add a black out and convulsions, ie a grand mal epileptic fit, as an alternative to the above runaway cascade. The unconsciousness of blackout shuts off the panic cascade thereby conserving glucose and the CONVULSIONS PUMP LACTIC ACID OUT OF THE SKELETAL MUSCLES. Veins have non return valves along them so that by the convulsions stretching and contracting them they act as a series of pumps to speed up the delivery of lactic acid back to the liver. I’ve had a few fits myself years ago and with one massive fit I was fully conscious during the entire fit. That was very enlightening. I was extremely paranoid, with the very obvious visual distortions mentioned above which got increasing more obvious. Then projectile vomiting followed by the very violent convulsions, which changed in pattern from the last. Now a period of calm in which the visuals distortions were minimal but gradually built up to another round of vomiting and convulsions. This confirmed what was known that when schizophrenics who also suffer epilepsy have a fit it dramatically reduces the symptoms. It was this that inspired ECT to induce convulsions.

    Brain tumours don’t directly trigger seizures. They use a lot of glucose the more malignant they become (what’s called the Warburg effect)and so exacerbate (make worse) the cerebral hypoglycaemia. I believe that the majority of these tumours are caused by the severe hypoxia in the brain associated with the vasoconstriction phase of migraine or simply severe reactive hypoglycaemia

    NON ALLERGIC ASTHMA.
    Most people know that if an asthmatic tries to hyperventilate to overcome the breathlessness it just makes the attack worse. So they have to slow their breathing right down and relax as much as possible. (Alexander technique) Strange. What’s going on? How can an increase in oxygen going into the body be detrimental. Speaking to one asthmatic I knew she said that a cup of tea made it easier to breath. She thought it was because it was a hot drink, but I fixed on the sugar replacing sugar produced by gluconeogenesis. With gluconeogenesis turned down there wouldn’t need to be a noradrenalin adrenalin reaction on muscle cell to produce lactic acid. But what if there was a very weak adrenergic response, especially noradrenalin and it’s vasocontricting effect to the skeletal muscles cutting back on their oxygen supply. So too much oxygen is reaching the skeletal muscles for fermentation of muscle glucose to lactic acid to take place for the liver to make glucose from. So instead HISTAMINE is released in the lungs to reduce oxygen transport into the bloodstream instead. Just a hunch, but a big on

  130. #131 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 13, 2012

    Politicalguineapig,
    I didn’t notice your post. No I’m not confusing schizophrenia with depression I just failed to mention that I went through a period of LSD induced schizophrenia AFTER I came out out the depression. I have a long paper on misdiagnosis but no room for it here. Move up the page to Seasonal Control of Metabolism and I talk about the effects of Basal Metabolism on psychiatric disorders..

    As to being wrong about anti-phychotics what do you think one crappy pro drug paper is gonna tell you. As Mandy Rice Davies said when Profumo and Co denied having sex with her and Christine Keeler, “They would say that, wouldn’t they” Same with all the crap on genes, genes, genes.When are you gonna stop sniping for snipings sake. If you really WANT to go on enjoying your own disorder, whatever that is, then that’s fine by me. As to the wrong spelling of anti-psychotics what the bloody hell has that got to do with anything but mindless nitpicking.

  131. #132 Politicalguineapig
    July 13, 2012

    Denice Walter: I’ve heard that. It makes me roll my eyes so hard I’m afraid they’ll fall out. And honestly, I really don’t care whether it affects my ADD or not at this point. Although I’ve never heard it linked to epilepsy or schizophrenia before.

  132. #133 Mrs Woo
    July 13, 2012

    @Denice & Politicalguineapig (Politicalcavie! Then you can even be “PC”) – I’ve pretty much heard it summarized as “white is bad for you” – i.e., white flour, refined sugar, regular white potatoes, white rice, etc. I’ve been assured if I just avoided “white as much as possible” (since many alties also condemn eggs & milk and/or all animal products, it doesn’t bother them that many dairy products are white also) that I wouldn’t have a single health problem.

    Of course, since I’ve eaten them so long, I will need repeated colonics to help “get rid of the toxins.” LOL

    The hardest part for me is keeping a straight face when Mr Woo begins to wax eloquent on the subject again. Rolling eyes becomes a bad habit!

  133. #134 Narad
    July 13, 2012

    The thing is people don’t sit down to a great big plate full of potatoes

    I do. No “migraine, diabetes, schizophrenia, bipolar, panic attacks, epilepsy etc.”

  134. #135 lilady
    July 13, 2012

    I try not to keep “white foods” such as potatoes, breads, cakes and ice cream in the house…for the simple reason that I pig out on them.

    I *do* brown rice and barley however, because I have some great recipes using them.

    I found Utz no-salt potato chips (salt-restricted diet) and they are great.

  135. #136 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 13, 2012

    WITH THE EXCEPTION OF LILADY IN THIS CASE.
    If this was a decent blog there would be a report button which I would press and the administrator would have a look at your posts and have no problem in pissing them off. The reason that you can’t see the point is because you have no comprehension of what I’m talking about and exhibit by your shear NASTINESS that you are suffering some sort of psychiatric disorders which is probably refined sugar related. You are not discrediting me, you are discrediting yourselves whilst gutlessly hiding behind pseudonyms. Why not your real names, ages, addresses and qualifications You obviously haven’t learned to read yet either. Go wreck something else.

  136. #137 Krebiozen
    July 13, 2012

    A few words on reactive hypoglycemia may be useful here. Reactive hypoglycemia does exist, but is overdiagnosed. It’s another one of those disorders like gut candiasis, chronic lyme, gluten intolerance and metabolic acidosis (I’m sure you can all think of others) that are popularised in CAM as a cause of all ills. I have monitored glucose levels every few minutes in people with suspected reactive hypoglycemia and only rarely do their symptoms coincide with a blood glucose low enough to cause it. I have regarded claims of reactive hypoglycemia with some scepticism ever since, and my scepticism seems to be supported by the literature..

    When reactive hypoglycemia does occur it seems to be triggered by a high glycemic index meal that contains a lot of starch or glucose, or probably more frequently by alcohol, not so much by medium glycemic index foods like sucrose. Here’s an article that goes into a lot of detail about hypoglycemia, though it may require registration with a French site (Google translate will help you through if necessary). Of particular interest is this statement about the symptoms of hypoglycemia:

    According to these authors, signs of hypoglycemia cluster into three sets: autonomic (sweating, palpitation, shaking and hunger), neuroglucopenic (confusion, drowsiness, odd behavior, speech difficulty and incoordination), and malaise (nausea and headache).

    Also:

    Permutt recommended that the reproduction of symptoms of hypoglycemia occurring in the home situation during an OGTT at the time of plasma glucose level of less than 0.50 g/l (2.8 mmol) is sufficient for the diagnosis of reactive hypoglycemia. However, it has been obvious since more than twenty years that this could lead to most cases of misdiagnosis, since plasma glucose nadirs below 2.8 mmol are usual in healthy persons after OGTT, while symptoms are not specific. [...] Thus, reactive hypoglycemia is quite a “normal” finding after OGTT, whether or not subjects suffer hypoglycemia after meals during their everyday life. Pure glucose appears to be an unphysiologic stress, seldom encountered outside the clinical laboratory, and that induces a rather different glucose kinetics than a mixed meal.

    Also:

    However, it is clear that patients with bona fide reactive hypoglycemic states may manifest an abnormal personality profile as determined, for instance, by the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI). These patients’ personality profiles are characterized by hypersomatization and hypochondriacal complaints.

    I have seen people during hypoglycemia episodes, epileptic seizures, migraines and psychotic episodes (not simultaneously) several times, and there are few similarities apart from an altered state of consciousness. When someone is having a grand mal seizure, or is suffering a severe migraine, or claims they are in telepathic contact with the British Royal family, is my first reaction to suggest that they need to get their blood glucose up? No. Sweating, pale, trembling, confused, nauseous? Yes. I have known a few people who appear to suffer from occasional hypoglycemia, but this is if they don’t eat for several hours, not as a crash after a meal or refined sugar. Carrying dextrose tablets and sucking on one when symptoms appear seems to help.

  137. #138 Politicalguineapig
    July 13, 2012

    Mrs. Woo: Good eye! I like cavies/guinea pigs a lot, but I don’t currently own any. The whole thing about white foods is really odd to me, though I do avoid commercial white bread because it’s got 0 nutrients, doesn’t hold up well, and, honestly isn’t very tasty. I’ll eat either white or brown rice, though I think brown rice has better taste and texture.
    I do have one question, though- how do alties deal with tofu or white tea?

    Lilady: who doesn’t like a good baked potato, or any other source of potatoy goodness? I love ice cream and cake too, though not white cake.

  138. #139 W. Kevin Vicklund
    July 13, 2012

    who doesn’t like a good baked potato, or any other source of potatoy goodness?

    *raises hand* But that’s largely because I’m allergic. I’ll eat fries every so often for the potassium, though (the frying process makes them less allergenic).

  139. #140 Denice Walter
    July 13, 2012

    Krebiozen rightly identifies the illness *de jour* syndrome woo-dom suffers. Sugar is especially *verboten* amongst those I survey as the cause of many ills. Null relates that his ‘investigative journalism” about the evil, white, Caribbean substance has earned him the eternal emnity of the ‘sugar lobby’ and a Ms Rockefellar who seek to label him a quack in order to protect their own financial interests. She got him banned at NYC’s PBS fund drives ( his nonsense survives in smaller markets).

    What’s hilarious to me is that both he and Adams compare sugar to a drug yet instruct followers in creating various juices/ smoothies that may incorporate multiple fruits in volume, e.g. (verbatim) ” Juice 5 apples”. Even a tyro like me can spot the obvious problem. Similarly, the baked potato’s GI example cited above. A baked potato is fine but sugar isn’t.

    Concerning white foods: the woo-meisters all hate white flour and sugar but vary on the dairy question- some like Adams and Mercola believe in raw, un-pasteurised, organic, non-bovine and/ or ‘natural” milk ( or some combination thereof) whilst the vegan mafia dismiss all dairy as inappropriate for adults and/ or creatures of ‘another species’. They require soy milk, rice milk or almond milk … Women can get adequate calcium by eating brocoli. Most of the planet’s population is lactose intolerant, they tell us. NO other species relishes another’s milk or enjoys it beyond infancy. However, these are primarily a bunch of white folks with agendas talking.

    While many western and northern Europeans may have no probems with milk- I’ve seen data that attributes their consumption of these products with healthy outcomes and I do not see Dutch nationals or Scandinavians keeling over in mass numbers yet.

    I don’t like milk or butter but I do consume yoghurt, low fat frozen products and cheese. I even like clotted cream, cheese cake,*creme de coeur* and yes….. ras malai!

  140. #141 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 13, 2012

    Krebiozen
    You say.
    ‘I have known a few people who appear to suffer from occasional hypoglycemia, but this is if they don’t eat for several hours, not as a crash after a meal or refined sugar. Carrying dextrose tablets and sucking on one when symptoms appear seems to help’

    Hypoglycaemia because they haven’t eaten for several hours. Doesn’t that suggest impaired liver storage of glycogen? What else can it possibly be? Not skeletal muscle storage as they can’t release glycogen as glucose.

    Taking dextrose , a monosacharride is a quick fix sure, but too quick as it just creates another spike and maybe an even worse low after the spike, or more likely cup after cup of sugar laden coffee which is what I’ve seen with schizophrenics. This is where it started for me. A girl diagnosed a schizophrenic. As she heads for a psychotic episode she sleeps less and less, gets out of bed sweaty and shaky. Has cup of coffee, heaps of sugar in it and a cigarette. An hour later, sugar craving once more as he BG has crashed, same thing again and again all day. Doesn’t eat till teatime. Meanwhile she has pulled down all the blinds, stops going out, thereby isolating herself more and more as her paranoia increases. Neighbours, noticing this become suspicious, and that she’s not feeding her kid properly. Then she stops eating completely, believing something in her food is causing the paranoia, being poisoned, can’t tell anyone, will get get locked up, kid taken off her. She’s obviously in ketosis, despite still drinking her sugar laden coffee, as her metabolic rate is so high with the paranoia and of course vice versa.

    She get locked up, kid taken off her until she is compliant, diagnosed schizophrenic, put on an antipsychotic but not for very long when she comes to see me. Now I’m just a friend, no role as anything and I talk to her at her place, ask her everything to try to sort out what to do. Then I hit on an idea which I put to her. Go to bed late and have a couple of slices of WHOLEMEAL toast with avocado on it. Slow release carb, no coffee. Then get out of bed early even if she has to force herself to get out so that her blood sugar hasn’t had time to fall to the point of having the sugar craving. IT IS THIS FIRST CUP OF COFFEE IN THE MORNING THAT STARTS THE WHOLE SEE SAWCYCLE WHICH HAS TO BE BROKEN AT THIS POINT No coffee and sugar, just the toast. Then eat properly from then on and eliminate ALL refined sugar. Check everything. What would happen, I had no idea?

    A week passed. A knock on the back door and there she is beaming. ‘Noddy” she says, ‘You wouldn’t believe it, I feel fantastic and have been sleeping properly’. Then she told me that she’d had a bad reaction one day when she’d put peanut butter on her toast not realizing that it had sugar in it. That’s how exquisitely sensitive she was. But then she was only a tiny slip of a girl, pretty skinny. I was absolutely blown away and went inside and had a bawl.
    That’s when I started doing the 5 hr GTT’s.

    So taking the dextrose tablets doesn’t address the underlying problem, the liver pathology. Now I don’t know just how good a general liver function test is, but surely a 5hr GTT plus maybe blood insulin at the same time to see is the first peak has been lost. Another problem here is that adrenalin as with anxiety, perhaps in response to just doing the test, activates INSULINASE in the liver so that all insulin in the bloodstream is broken down in one pass through the liver. Thus blood adrenalin would also have to be tested for as well and it gets too complicated and invasive, thereby adding to the anxiety.

    This is where all my electronic paraphernalia gave a MUCH better picture with all data eventually to be recorded so that everything could be looked at simultaneously later at leisure. I’m sure that the bankruptees thought that this stuff was to have been used for some sort of brainwashing.

    I reckon that the two of my test subjects who had panic attacks, knowing that I had taken a lot of LSD in the past, thought that I had put it into their glucose solution, hence their evasiveness as to why they wanted out, thereby distorting their test and perhaps pushing them over the line.

    Ok. Maybe reactive hypoglycaemia is over diagnosed, perhaps by naturopaths. But shouldn’t BG regulation be EXTREMELY precise to meet precise neuronal demands. I’ve checked online and confirmed that neurons do NOT have insulin receptors, nor can they store glucose as glycogen. Astrocytes can and seem to be a backup fuel supply to the neuron, providing lactic and pyruvic acid and thus able to keep the TCA cycle in the neuron functioning. But what happens when astrocyte glycogen runs our simultaneous to liver glycogen running out ALONG WITH IMPAIRED GLUCONEOGENESIS. due to the liver pathology. Enter the flood of adrenalin and noradrenalin to tap muscle glycogen supply, FEAR compounded DRAMATICALLY by wondering what the hell is going on.

    We evolved eating food provided by the forest, a supply which changes according to the seasons, and which precisely matches our metabolic and nutritional demands for that time of year. As soon as we interfere with that IN ANY WAY we begin to run into trouble and we have been doing that for many thousands of years.

    Next I want to talk about assimilation and digestion of sugars concentrating on the GIP (gastro inhibitory peptide) axis and it’s importance in achieving that PRECISE regulation.

  141. #142 Politicalguineapig
    July 13, 2012

    Kevin: Sorry! I have a few friends with really odd allergies to common foods/additives, so, my sympathies. (One of my friends is allergic to chicken, and you would not believe how many resturants use chicken broth or chicken grease.)

    Paul Hill: Same with all the crap on genes, genes, genes.When are you gonna stop sniping for snipings sake. If you really WANT to go on enjoying your own disorder, whatever that is, then that’s fine by me.

    Look, we are only trying to correct you because your advice could possibly kill or harm someone some day. Secondly, it’s common knowledge that schizophrenia and other assorted diseases have some basis in genetics. Hell, behaviors like nail-biting have genetic bases. Don’t just ask me, ask anyone else on this board.

    Finally, there’s no call to be rude. I’m surprised no one’s dropped the f-bomb on you yet. But, ya know, personally I’m fine. Yeah, life could be a lot better, and I’m working on that, but at least I don’t inflict medical knowledge I pulled out of my ass on strangers.

  142. #143 Narad
    July 13, 2012

    The more frequently you take LSD the less effect it has, hence the label ‘antiaddictive’.

    Why do you think I noted the frequency of dosing in the anecdote I mentioned to demonstrate that your blanket assertion “you’ll end up with LSD induced schizophrenia” is plainly false? Tolerance washes out just fine in three days, to which I can personally attest. Moreover, the anecdote illustrates that trying to quietly shift the sands to cumulative dose doesn’t really work, either, in terms of your attempt to just declare what is so and roll from there.

    By many of your comments so far I would have to question YOUR designation of this bloke as sane. But that’s okay.

    He’s not living in a park with an imaginary antenna array and generator to provide actual Internet connectivity, if that’s what you mean.

    As Laing and many other have stated it is being PREDISPOSED to schizophrenia that’s important.

    It’s rather unclear how someone can be PREDISPOSED to something that is asserted not to exist in the first place.

    That most certainly includes religion, refined sugar consumption and liver pathology, same as with migraine.

    No, this is simply you repeating yourself.

    Go back and read my post on panic attacks.

    Thanks, no.

    Then there is what Leary called ‘set and setting’. If you live in dangerous digs and with the drug being illegal, hence the chance of being busted whilst tripping, these create a setting predisposed to psychosis.

    Leap to “conclusions” glued together by nothing other than word proximity much? While Leary coined this statement of the blindingly obvious, he apparently didn’t understand it in the least, as a listen to “Turn On, Tune In, Drop Out,” which you can find on-line, not to mention the crazy-ass riff on the Tibetan Book of the Dead, illustrates in spades.

    Set is the mood you’re in when you take the LSD.

    Don’t try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs, Paul.

    As to long term use of LSD reinforcing the religious belief of a God of love burning someone in Hell forever, no Narad I don’t quite think so.

    That’s nice. However, this is your (apparently ongoing) bad trip; I said nothing whatever on the subject.

    That is a perfectly reasonable juxtaposition between two totally incompatible and irreconcilable opposites and as such is symptomatic of paranoid, herbephrinic and catatonic schizophrenia.

    This is merely a word salad composed of your usual 40-year-old touchstones.

    Like I said, one has to keep going through a vast minfeild of the most appalling mumbo jumbo as I did.

    Strangely, you keep recycling “appalling mumbo jumbo.”

    Buddhism, Hinduism, astrology, flying saucers, Ouija boards, and now finally ‘EVIDENCE’ BASED MEDICINE. with needing LSD just these blogs.

    Do you remember way back when, when you cited The Book of Grass and I inconveniently had a copy lying around and told you who put it together? You seem to be under the impression that you have cornered the market on the stuff and that your “esoteric” references will allow you to get away with blabbering that rises from an obscurantist fog. As it happens, you appear to have lucked into precisely the wrong place.

    I’ll do you a favor, Paul. Go read this. It is not the most recent version, and the old PDF may be ill-behaved, and in your case I would actually recommend the original paperback edition, but you might actually benefit from it.

  143. #144 Narad
    July 13, 2012

    I hope the two failed blockquotes in the foregoing don’t impede readability too much. Of course, I also used to hope that preview wasn’t too much to expect.

  144. #145 Narad
    July 13, 2012

    Crap, the link’s broken too. Here.

  145. #146 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 14, 2012

    Narad,
    Just because I agree with ONE thing someone said doesn’t mean I agree with everything they said. Of course Leary went off the rails, especially when he said that LSD was an essential vitamin and should be put in all cities water supplies, then got locked up for saying so.

    Same with the Book of Grass on adrenochrome. Doesn’t matter where I read it. It’s the formation of adrenochrome in the bloodstream relative to schizophrenia, that was important to me, the precise biochemistry involved.

    I wasn’t talking about physical tolerance to the drug negating the progression to LSD induced schizophrenia. I was talking about the effect of having a freak out and one thinking that one is going mad, people in the same house getting concerned of what might happen, ie one going berserk with an axe. Them HIDING the axe and the knives. One noticing they have gone and one getting concerned about what people in the house are starting to believe, getting concerned that he or she MIGHT go berserk. Basal metabolic rate going up as anxiety increases. A gradual process of alienation and paranoia on both sides. Much more likely to have a WORSE panic attack next time. Time for the bin for one forr the safety of those in the house. There was nobody in my house.

    So called flashbacks erroneously thought to result from LSD stored in fat cells. Not so, is water soluble. Some say gone from body in as short as 20 minutes. The flashback is auto suggestion, fear feeding on fear. I had a mate reckoned he was having a flashback and was really frightened yet hadn’t taken LSD for years. He had had a freak out so severe years before he was driven to the local hospital, and was given a big INJECTION of Largactil. Just a normal panic attack exacerbated by belief in flashbacks.

    What I was saying about the mumbo-jumbo was referring to someone taking LSD over a period of time, starting to believe all sorts frightening stuff, aliens living next door, phone being tapped, committing sin by taking the drug, then stopping taking the drug out of fear of going completely insane. Left hanging in limbo. Can’t go forward or backward. Typical LSD induced schizophrenia.

    This didn’t happen with me as I had nowhere to go and it was realising that the acid freakout was in fact catatonia, along with Laing talking about coming through to the other side that kept me going. Actually my roadmap right through, even though it’s based largely on Hinduism was Richard Alpert’s book ‘Be Here Now’.

    Narad and Politicalgueneapig, you are right. I should not have blown my cool and become abusive. So I apologize.

  146. #147 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 14, 2012

    I had a grandmother who actually DID suck eggs. She’d poke a hole in each end with a darning needle, upend the egg to her mouth and suck the contents out. As a little kid watching this I was disgusted.

  147. #148 Krebiozen
    July 14, 2012

    Paul Hill,

    Hypoglycaemia because they haven’t eaten for several hours. Doesn’t that suggest impaired liver storage of glycogen? What else can it possibly be? Not skeletal muscle storage as they can’t release glycogen as glucose.

    That article on reactive hypoglycemia I liinked to (this link might work for a PDF) puts the probable causes of post-prandial reactive hypoglycemia (PRH) succinctly, and some of these are very probably responsible for fasting hypoglycemia too:
    blockquote>PRH could result from (a) an exaggerated insulin respobse, either related to insulin resistance or to increased glucagon-like-peptide 1; (b) renal glycosuria; (c) defects in glucagon response; (d) high insulin sensitivity, probably the most frequent cause (50%-70%), which is not adequately compensated by hypoinsulinemia and thus cannot be measured by indices of insulin sensitivity such as the homeostatic model assessment.

    Taking dextrose , a monosacharride is a quick fix sure, but too quick as it just creates another spike and maybe an even worse low after the spike, or more likely cup after cup of sugar laden coffee which is what I’ve seen with schizophrenics.

    I’ve seen similar with people in psychosis and drug users, and undoubtedly this behavior does not help the situation, but that’s not the same as causing it. Alcoholics frequently end up with vitamin deficiencies, but vitamin deficiencies do not cause alcoholism.
    I’ll just pick up on a couple of bits of your anecdote about the schizophrenic girl:

    She’s obviously in ketosis, despite still drinking her sugar laden coffee, as her metabolic rate is so high with the paranoia and of course vice versa.

    Obviously? According to my education and experience, people consuming regular carbs don’t generally go into ketosis.

    A week passed. A knock on the back door and there she is beaming. ‘Noddy” she says, ‘You wouldn’t believe it, I feel fantastic and have been sleeping properly’. Then she told me that she’d had a bad reaction one day when she’d put peanut butter on her toast not realizing that it had sugar in it. That’s how exquisitely sensitive she was.

    First schizophrenia often has a variable course, secondly some would claim that mycotoxins in the peanut butter were responsible for her reaction (I don’t seriously suggest this, but it’s as plausible as a tiny bit of sugar), thirdly encouraging people with serious mental health problems to ignore proper medical advice is foolish and potentially dangerous. I don’t think anyone would deny the therapeutic effects of a little human kindness and a decent meal, but to leap from this to arguing that serious mental health problems are rooted in dysfunction of blood glucose regulation? I don’t think you have even the basis of an argument.

    So taking the dextrose tablets doesn’t address the underlying problem, the liver pathology.

    The liver pathology you appear to have made up out of whole cloth and have no evidence for at all?

    Now I don’t know just how good a general liver function test is,

    I do, having done thousands of them over the years. In the UK we measure albumin to check the liver is synthesizing it OK, bilirubin to see if the liver is excreting it OK (if bilirubin is elevated you can check if it is conjugated, obstructive post-hepatic, or unconjugated, pre-hepatic), also transaminases that pick up inflammation and alkaline phosphatase which is elevated in obstruction. They are pretty comprehensive.

    but surely a 5hr GTT plus maybe blood insulin at the same time to see is the first peak has been lost.

    You seriously think no one has measured insulin during a GTT? This has been done, many, many times, and your hypothesis is not supported by the results.

    Another problem here is that adrenalin as with anxiety, perhaps in response to just doing the test, activates INSULINASE in the liver so that all insulin in the bloodstream is broken down in one pass through the liver. Thus blood adrenalin would also have to be tested for as well and it gets too complicated and invasive, thereby adding to the anxiety.

    Adrenaline (that’s epinephrine to some of us) stimulates glucagonolysis in the liver and increases blood glucose. You can’t simply reverse one of the major effects of adrenaline to suit your hypotheses! Do you have actual evidence of impaired hepatic glucagonolysis in any of these disorders?

    This is where all my electronic paraphernalia gave a MUCH better picture with all data eventually to be recorded so that everything could be looked at simultaneously later at leisure.

    This made me curious before, and it’s a rainy Saturday afternoon where I am so… What exactly did you think that hooking someone up to these gadgets while giving them a GTT would uncover? We know that a lot of people will have some kind of adrenergic reaction to a GTT. So what?

    I reckon that the two of my test subjects who had panic attacks, knowing that I had taken a lot of LSD in the past, thought that I had put it into their glucose solution, hence their evasiveness as to why they wanted out, thereby distorting their test and perhaps pushing them over the line.

    Panic attacks and LSD trips appear to be two very different entities to me. I have observed people experiencing both, (I have also experienced both myself) and they are not remotely similar.

    Ok. Maybe reactive hypoglycaemia is over diagnosed, perhaps by naturopaths. But shouldn’t BG regulation be EXTREMELY precise to meet precise neuronal demands.

    You seem to be pursuing a big non sequitur here. Yes reactive hypoglycemia exists, yes hypoglycemia can make people feel very weird and trigger anxiety, migraine and seizures. Is dysfunction of glucose regulation a major factor in the etiology of psychosis, epilepsy and migraine? I don’t think so.

    I’ve checked online and confirmed that neurons do NOT have insulin receptors,

    Citation needed – I was taught that all human cells have insulin receptors, please feel free to educate me otherwise. Some brain cells don’t require insulin to uptake glucose, but synapses have lots of insulin receptors.

    nor can they store glucose as glycogen.

    So?

    Astrocytes can and seem to be a backup fuel supply to the neuron, providing lactic and pyruvic acid and thus able to keep the TCA cycle in the neuron functioning. But what happens when astrocyte glycogen runs our simultaneous to liver glycogen running out ALONG WITH IMPAIRED GLUCONEOGENESIS. due to the liver pathology. Enter the flood of adrenalin and noradrenalin to tap muscle glycogen supply, FEAR compounded DRAMATICALLY by wondering what the hell is going on.

    This is simply speculation without any evidence at all to support it.

    We evolved eating food provided by the forest, a supply which changes according to the seasons, and which precisely matches our metabolic and nutritional demands for that time of year. As soon as we interfere with that IN ANY WAY we begin to run into trouble and we have been doing that for many thousands of years.

    That’s the naturalistic fallacy. Humans are designed to survive in a specific environment with a specific diet, so if we can duplicate that we will be healthy and live forever? Look at animals in the wild. They get the same degenerative diseases that humans get, and that you blame on the “concrete jungle”.

    Next I want to talk about assimilation and digestion of sugars concentrating on the GIP (gastro inhibitory peptide) axis and it’s importance in achieving that PRECISE regulation.

    [sarcasm]I can barely control my excitement [/sarcasm].

  148. #149 Krebiozen
    July 14, 2012

    Hopefully obvious blockquote fail is obvious.

  149. #150 Denice Walter
    July 14, 2012

    Anti-psychiatry advocates will go to any lengths- even bending over backwards- to avoid the obvious, established by SBM research- that schizophrenia reflects structural and chemical anomalies in the brain that derive from genetics influenced by early ( i.e. pre- and peri-natal) environmental influences ( see schizophrenia.com/ causation). There are some great imaging studies at LONI’s website.

    It is not caused by diet, vitamin deficiency, stress, poor parental managment or untoward alien manoeuvres, despite what followers of Orthomolecularism, Szasz, Breggin or Hubbard might tell you. Those I survey especially oppose pharmaceutical products- exaggerating side effects while failing to mention the benefits people may experience. This is truly a dis-service to those who suffer. ( Lately, I’ve been hearing that Valenstein dis-proved the ‘chemical imbalance theory” LONG ago. Right.)

    An odd thing I find: people with SMI often fear meds and don’t want to take them- some of this is due to anosognosia- a lack of awareness of illness attributed to the illness’ effects ( see Xavier Amador). The alt med providers seem to share this idea**- however, this is a case where patient- provider *simpatico* in not in the patients’ interests.

    ** make your own inferences

  150. #151 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 14, 2012

    “Thirdly encouraging people with serious mental health problems to ignore proper medical advice is foolish and potentially dangerous. I don’t think anyone would deny the therapeutic effects of a little human kindness and a decent meal, but to leap from this to arguing that serious mental health problems are rooted in dysfunction of blood glucose regulation? I don’t think you have even the basis of an argument.”

    You would rather put her on an antipsychotic would you so that she becomes obese, developes Diabetes 2, and the great plethora of horrendous side effects from these poisons. Well, I don’t agree with you and if I want to play God then that is precisely what I’ll do without requiring your sanction. Public psychiatry is a vicious monster out of control and I will do whatever I can to protect anyone from it.. That is my prerogative.

    Panic attacks and CATATONIA on LSD which I have experienced on a number of times. Go take some acid and see for yourself. So I’m lying about the people who got off the sugar and their migraines ceased, or did I just imagined this because I’m deranged.

    Animals in the wild. What wild? Where is it? Australian aboriginals began wiping out the center of Australia about 40,000 years ago with fire. What was lush rainforest right across central Australia is now desert. That is supposed to be a racist statement.

    Who said anything about living forever, suggestion that I am some sort of religious cuckoo. As to you sarcastically awaiting my response this is it. I suggest you do a course in being courteous and civil. Good bye.

  151. #152 Denice Walter
    July 14, 2012

    @ Narad:

    I personally didn’t like the hallucinogens although I enjoyed the enhanced visual contours and perceptual effects intriguing so I stopped after 2 or 3 experiments. Unfortunately, I discovered that I did relish smoking opium which I brilliantly restricted to very widely spaced intervals. In the late 1970s I was a student in a few farflung locations which didn’t hurt.

  152. #153 Krebiozen
    July 14, 2012

    Several years ago in London a close friend developed an acute psychosis. He was convinced that someone was poisoning him by putting LSD in the sugar he put in his tea (UK habit Politcalguineapig), among other delusions. I tried to get him medical attention but he wouldn’t go voluntarily and because he showed no signs of being a danger to himself or others I was unable to force it upon him.

    In the end I contacted his mother, bought him a train ticket and sent him to Scotland to spend some quiet time with his family away from the big city. Long story short, he stabbed his mother multiple times, killing her and ended up in a secure psychiatric unit. It’s an unusual tale, but it has made me very wary of meddling in the treatment of people with serious mental health issues. The sugar and LSD connection oddly and almost certainly coincidentally echoes Paul Hill’s claims.

  153. #154 Krebiozen
    July 14, 2012

    Paul Hill,

    You would rather put her on an antipsychotic would you so that she becomes obese, developes Diabetes 2, and the great plethora of horrendous side effects from these poisons.

    Antipsychotics have been a literal life-saver for many people, and you exaggerate the side effects. My friend I mentioned above now has regular depot injections of antipsychotics and last time I saw him he was doing very well.

    Well, I don’t agree with you and if I want to play God then that is precisely what I’ll do without requiring your sanction.

    Evidently, I hope your hubris doesn’t come back and bite you.

    Public psychiatry is a vicious monster out of control and I will do whatever I can to protect anyone from it.. That is my prerogative.

    Are you seriously suggesting that all mental health problems are caused by eating too much refined sugar? That a sensible diet can cure major psychoses? Sorry, but I think that’s dangerous nonsense. Modern psychiatry is by no means perfect, but if you think that nutrition can replace pharmaceuticals, you are sadly mistaken.

    Panic attacks and CATATONIA on LSD which I have experienced on a number of times. Go take some acid and see for yourself.

    I took acid and other psychedelic drugs many times in my misspent youth, and never experienced anything remotely similar to the effects of hypoglycemia or a panic attack.

    So I’m lying about the people who got off the sugar and their migraines ceased, or did I just imagined this because I’m deranged.

    I’m not accusing you of lying, and diet does seem to help some people control their migraines. It’s your leap of faith from that to claiming that refined sugar causes migraines (psychoses and epilepsy) that I don’t think is supported by the evidence.

    Animals in the wild. What wild? Where is it? Australian aboriginals began wiping out the center of Australia about 40,000 years ago with fire. What was lush rainforest right across central Australia is now desert. That is supposed to be a racist statement.

    Dinosaur skeletons show signs of cancer and arthritis long before humans existed.

    Who said anything about living forever, suggestion that I am some sort of religious cuckoo. As to you sarcastically awaiting my response this is it. I suggest you do a course in being courteous and civil. Good bye.

    There was me thinking I had been treating you with grandmotherly kindness, yet a little humorous sarcasm scares you away? No offence was intended, and I apologize for any taken. I think you are wrong, and have done my best to explain why.

  154. #155 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 14, 2012

    Denice Walte

    ‘It is not caused by diet, vitamin deficiency, stress, poor parental management or untoward alien manoeuvres, despite what followers of Orthomolecularism, Szasz, Breggin or Hubbard might tell you.’

    First off I don’t know why you included Hubbard in the above mix. That really is disparaging. As to Breggins, he pays no attention to diet whatsoever. He and his wife are supreme narcissists who revel in post after post singing their. praises. When I put in posts about sugar, first she locked me out, then he locked me out. Then when I sent messages to posters direct I was locked out Facebook for ‘spamming’ and have not been able to get back in. As to Szasz, ‘Manufacture of Madness’ from memory, didn’t go much on him either, don’t recall him mentioning diet, nor did Laing, one reason he screwed up along with blaming the double binds of capitalism exclusively for schizophrenia. This was when they though Stalin was a fairy godmother.

    I am not a fan of any one school, eg orthomolecularism. I pick the eyes out of ALL of them. Although I can’t go very far with Steiner’s ‘Putting Christ into the soil’ or molecular memory in water. Sounds like ghosts trapped in the bricks of the wall. Please don’t identify me with any of that shit. For all of my biochemistry, molecular biology etc. I go straight to conventional textbooks. It is from these that I build my models. If an ND says sugar I go to these textbooks. If it doesn’t pan out I throw it to the shithouse.

    When you say schizophrenia is not caused by diet, vitamin deficiency, stress etc. now come on. That IS Coca Cola and the drug companies talking. So you can tip any gunk down your throat and not experience any sort of psychiatric problems. Vitamins are enzyme cofactors essential for a whole range of reactions, as antioxidants protecting DNA and cell membranes etc. Vitamin B3 deficiency has been shown to be a causal factor in schizophrenia (I’ll get back to that later) Stress causes vasoconstriction of the entire GI tract leading to malabsorption of a range of nutrients, changes in bowel flora, persistently high levels of adrenalin, noradrenalin and dopamine up regulating the number of relevant receptors in brain and body etc. etc. Not inherited upregulation. I might give a bit of ground on epigenetic inheritence.

    Prenatal? No problem. Chronic stress in Mum, premature birth and underweight. Got a post already done on that, will put in later. Perinatal? No problem. Chronic stress in bub in part due to chronic stress in mum imposing stress on bub. Stress persists due to conflict in family, sexual and violent abuse, huge range of unresolvable double binds imposed on kid. The range of physiological changes imposed by chronic stress are enormous, including impaired liver function, something that shrinks I’ve met no NOTHING about. It is this range of physiological AND psychological changes, that predispose to refined sugar sensitivity and with it schizophrenia. Hyperthyoidism is a good stress induced one. See above in ‘Seasonal Control of Basal Metabolism’.

    As to inherited genetic mutations I want to know PRECISELY what and where they are, and what the genes containing them do PRECISELY. I wont argue about rare cases, but common ones? Drug and Coca Cola funded research speaking.

    That just about gets you out of the way for now. (tongue in cheek not sarcy.)

  155. #156 Narad
    July 14, 2012

    First off I don’t know why you included Hubbard in the above mix.

    You yourself bring up Laing and praise the “anti-psychiatry movement” and you don’t know why Hubbard would come up?

  156. #157 paul hill
    July 14, 2012

    Krebiozen
    July 14, 12:59 pm
    To save time her I’ll pot a post in on Clozapine later, dealing with the hepatoxicity of antipsychotics, especially of Stelazine due in part to the problem of metabolizing the 3 fluorines in a methyl kike grouping . Just about ever schizophrenic im my town has put on a huge amount of weight. Many may have type 2 diabetes. (a post on diabetes later.)

    ‘Antipsychotics have been a literal life-saver for many people’.

    Depends on what you call lifesavers especially if there are lifestyle change alternatives which shrinks don’t even consider. If you are talking injections I assume you are talking Modecate used for COMPULSORY medication, an abuse if ever there was one.

    ‘Evidently, I hope your hubris doesn’t come back and bite you’. It won’t

    ‘Public psychiatry is a vicious monster out of control and I will do whatever I can to protect anyone from it.. That is my prerogative’

    That is my PERSONAL experience having been binned twice myself and been part of a drug culture for many years, known HEAPS of people with schizophrenia. No I’m not saying sugar alone, nothing like it, stress, booze, shit food, toxins in environment and on and on. I’m saying the PRIMARY ones are refined sugar and liver pathology.

    ‘Panic attacks and CATATONIA on LSD which I have experienced on a number of times. Go take some acid and see for yourself’.

    Why was your youth misspent by taking drugs? They were an essential part of my education. Now, depends on how old you are as to the strength of the acid you go as it seems to have fallen dramatically. Now while it isn’t possible for the user to know, the Clear Light drops on blotting paper I used to use were alleged to be around 200 micrograms.

    I used to take THREE every Sunday. The reason was because after coming down from the catonia, frozen stiff with terror, I’d go into the most awe inspiring state of the most extraordinary beauty, totally timeless peace. I couldn’t get there with one cap. I tried to avoid the catatonia as it was horrific, one time like a statue for up to three hours right close to the highway in full view. This was in a town filled with prejudice against me because of my two boat accidents and by then the suicide of one of my deckhands.

    ‘ So I’m lying about the people who got off the sugar and their migraines ceased, or did I just imagined this because I’m deranged’.

    What EVIDENCE that migraine is cured by eliminating sugar? This is not in the mainstream. It is in a stream that gets out of the mainstream as it can no longer trust it. This is a different world to the one you live in. People who came to me and told me that they no longer suffer migraines AT ALL, FINITO, GONE, VAMOOSED. Vasospasm, my explanation up above, osmotic pressure changes. I’ll get into epilepsy later.

    ‘Dinosaur skeletons show signs of cancer and arthritis long before humans existed’.

    Rapid environmental change? Asteroid impact, huge forest fires resulting, pyrobenzynes in air etc. What era?

    There is a radical difference between tongue in cheek and sarcasm, my son. Not to worry. More to come.

  157. #158 Narad
    July 14, 2012

    I personally didn’t like the hallucinogens although I enjoyed the enhanced visual contours and perceptual effects intriguing so I stopped after 2 or 3 experiments.

    I haven’t touched a one of them in well over a decade, but I was always curious about the seeming separation reported between 2C-B (strongly visual) and 2C-E (more of an all-out assault on the ego). As for LSD, at this point I’d be of a mind with Loudon Wainwright’s conclusion to “The Acid Song”: “Hold out for mushrooms instead.”

  158. #159 Narad
    July 14, 2012

    Just because I agree with ONE thing someone said doesn’t mean I agree with everything they said. Of course Leary went off the rails, especially when he said that LSD was an essential vitamin and should be put in all cities water supplies, then got locked up for saying so.

    Sigh. Leary didn’t get locked up for saying stupid things, he got locked up for doing stupid things. And that wasn’t Leary, it was the Yippies.

    Anyway, you are missing the point. Even having popularized the phrase (and there’s no particular reason to think he didn’t swipe it from Lisa Bieberman or something; he didn’t come up with “Start Your Own Religion” all by his lonesome), he plainly didn’t understand it, at least as the homely advice that it has come to be, as it appears in what has to be the most focused bad-trip manual ever produced, The Psychedelic Experience I’ll further note that your assessment of the meaning of “set,” viz., “the mood you’re in when you take the LSD,” isn’t exactly Leary’s, which is a nebulous “preparation of the individual.” Keep in mind the Hesse kick that the League went on. This was all supposed to be some sort of portentous journey with preparation as pilgrims and so forth.

    You don’t understand your own attempted references.

  159. #160 Politicalguineapig
    July 14, 2012

    Narad: Alcoholics frequently end up with vitamin deficiencies, but vitamin deficiencies do not cause alcoholism.

    Any idea why? I didn’t know that and it’s really interesting.

    Paul Hill: Australian aboriginals began wiping out the center of Australia about 40,000 years ago with fire. What was lush rainforest right across central Australia is now desert. That is supposed to be a racist statement.

    That is straight-up racist bullshit. Nothing supposed about it.

    PH: When you say schizophrenia is not caused by diet, vitamin deficiency, stress etc. now come on. That IS Coca Cola and the drug companies talking.

    Another heap of b.s. Among the US, only 1.1 % of the population has schizophrenia. If your hypothesis was true, that percentage would be a lot higher.

    Krebozien: I know it’s an English habit, and I can only excuse it in commericial Indian teas or the various breakfast blends. Putting sugar in Chinese black tea- or green tea in any variety-ought to be a crime.

    DW: people with SMI often fear meds and don’t want to take them- some of this is due to anosognosia- a lack of awareness of illness attributed to the illness’ effects ( see Xavier Amador). The alt med providers seem to share this idea**- however, this is a case where patient- provider *simpatico* in not in the patients’ interests.

    I think this might be true of most people with mental illnesses or conditions like depression. I hated every anti-depressant I was on, because I was convinced I’d be normal if I went off them. I also really hated the many meds I took for ADD. I think most of it’s due to the stigma mental illness carries.

  160. #161 Denice Walter
    July 14, 2012

    @ Narad:
    @ Krebiozen:

    Now seeing your comments about ‘experimenting” … I understand why we may often be on similar wavelengths…
    Birds of a feather. I never did much LSD or mescaline but as mentioned previously I liked opium…. limited to infrequent, cautious episodes; since at least one of you has been to Morocco I imagine you are familar with kif: I found it somewhat hallucinogenic, producing interesting visual phenomena. I never bothered much with the more prosaic stuff. Actually I somehow managed to experiment and simultaneously excel academically/ work on a career/ have a serious relationship. One never knows do one?

  161. #162 Denice Walter
    July 14, 2012

    @ paul hill:

    I’m a shill for Coca-Cola?
    … why not Tanqueray? I actually *like* that,

    Here’s a clue for you about RI and other sceptical sites:
    I am not saying anything beyond what SBM/ psychology does: I have no pet theories or research projects. The data are out there. Some might call it the Orthodoxy and me, its High Priestess… I stand by that.
    However if someone else – like you- has an alternate set of beliefs, YOU’RE the one required to show the data, refer to studies et al. Speculation is fine but don’t expect it to tear down the research that has accumulated over decades about the brain, SMI, meds, therapy, recovery..

    I survey a few alt med folk who attempt to overthrow valid, meaningful research about SMI- they seem to rely upon anecdotes and poorly done research. Thinking it so doesn’t make it as such.

  162. #163 Black-cat
    July 15, 2012

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLC-y3r66Ys&feature=related

    I was born in the 60′s dammit. I missed all the fun

  163. #164 Black-cat
    July 15, 2012

    Just kidding

  164. #165 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 15, 2012

    I started tripping in 1968. I was walking into a milk bar when I bumped into a couple of surfies i barely knew and THEY ASKED IF i WANTED TO TRIP THAT AFTERNOON. Now i was a complete mess, a backsliidden Christian that believed that I was gonna burn in Hell and thus a pretty bad alcoholic. This was before my boat accidents, but might have been after I almost died from the bends. I was completely straight, never touched and drug beside booze and fags. As a Christian the thought of taking LSD would have been a complete no no. But now I was a backslidden one treated like a pariah by Christians, hadn’t been near a church for years. What was it doing for me. Nothing, just condemning me. No love of God, just hatred they called righteous indignation.

    Thus there was nothing else on the horizon to lift my spirits and I agree. We walked along a beach and just talked nonsense and I nearly pissed myself laughing This was nothing like the LSD experience that I’d been told about. I was just beginning to see that Christianity had a lot of questions to answer but it would be another 4 years, 2 of horror with the boat accidents, before I finally laid it to rest and stopped drinking. I just didn’t feel like a drink any more as I wasn’t on fire. AA says this is impossible. Everyone said it was impossible. It was at this point I started to question dogma, ie the dogma that said that depression AND alcoholism were hereditary. It was non existent God that was killing me. That is why I am questioning medical dogma right now and have been since 1972. I’ll leave you with some of my thoughts on God today.

    Listen you atheist mongrels. God does NOT have a super hyper mega ego. It’s actually quite minuscule in its natural state. It’s all of the grovelling and snivelling by religious people that inflates it. Hymns like How Great Thou Art, To God Be the Glory, To God from Whom all Blessing Flow all pump it up to gargantuan proportions. Can HE help that. This is what happened to poor Jim Jones. Imagine if that happened up in Heaven, a Mega Masda.
    Now listen very carefully because this VERY complex science. The Higgs Bosons are tiny little lumps of God’s Ego, hence the name the God particle. These lumps hold the Universe together. This is how God spreads himself around. If you bloody atheists keep putting shit on religious people they’ll either all commit mass suicide or stop believing. No more brown nosing by them and God’s ego will deflate, all the Higgs Bosons with vanish and the bloody Universe will vanish up it’s own asshole thus.

    Actually there are a huge number of assholes now. They are the black holes, hence the name. When the Higgs bosons disappear, the galaxies will collapse and get gobbled up by the black holes. With me so far. Then without galaxies to keep the black holes apart, their huge gravitation fields will pull them into one HUGE black hole, whose gravitational field will be so HUGELY, MONSTROUSLY MASSIVE that it will scrunch down into nothing, nill, zero kaput. God, Heaven, us, the Devil, Hell and whatever else is out there will just vanish. That’ll be a plus for all those poor bastards burning in Hell and all those bored shitless up in Heaven. But it doesn’t suit ME. So cut it out, alright.

    Actually there is a complication here. Too much prayer, which is essentially hot air is the major contributor to global warming. The methane in religious peoples farts is ten times more potent a green house gas than atheists farts. So here we have a huge dilemma, getting the right balance between heating up the planet and buggering it completely, and us with it, vs imploding the frigging Universe. I will sort this out and am now scrunching the numbers in my demented brain. So you’d better grovel to me now so I get it right, but don’t overdo it as I might bugger up if my ego, which is already monstrously massive, explodes.
    Paul the totally deranged Blasphemer despised of both God and the Devil

  165. #166 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 15, 2012

    Politicalguineapig,

    Living in Australia as I do, a country which is a victim of constant US warmongering by having to suck up it’s arse constantly, now faced with a big US military presence in Australia, all the guns and religion in the US I’d put that figure at closer to 100%.

  166. #167 Narad
    July 15, 2012

    since at least one of you has been to Morocco I imagine you are familar with kif

    Ah, Morocco. I only have three stories in this regard. The only one that involves kif proper also involves burros. Really, it’s not a very good story, and I never touched kif there. There was was some very weak, spongy blond hash purchased from one of the boys that hawked individual “Casa Sport” cigarettes on the street (apparently, the choice of athletes), but the best one involves a misunderstanding.

    So, I’m in Marrakesh and strolling along in a low-density part of the the outskirts. Some fellow comes up to me and makes friendly, and then goes right into a riff along the lines of, “Have you tried the spices? Spices for your mind?” I begged off of this very quickly, but he was nice about it, and said that if I wanted to find him, he was known as “Double Zero.” Just what I need, a Pynchon moment in an unfamiliar country.

    So anyway, I wound up turned around in the medina a couple of days later and asked an old fellow for directions. His opening was, “Oh, yes, we know you, you have been talking to the boy.”

    “The boy?”

    “Double Zero.”

    I found my own way back to the hotel in a hurry. The misunderstanding, which I never really apprehended before now, is that 00 is a common name for a grade of Moroccan hashish.

  167. #168 Narad
    July 15, 2012

    Narad: Alcoholics frequently end up with vitamin deficiencies, but vitamin deficiencies do not cause alcoholism.

    Any idea why? I didn’t know that and it’s really interesting.

    I’m not sure why this was addressed to me, but the reason why alcoholics suffer from vitamin deficiencies is pretty clear: wrong primary source of calories, including using food money for EtOH and being too out of it to prepare food in the first place.

  168. #169 Politicalguineapig
    July 15, 2012

    Oops, I mixed you up with Krebozien. I’m having kinda a bad day, attentionwise. Missed training for a canvassing effort cause I had the wrong address.

  169. #170 Midnight Rambler
    July 15, 2012

    Krebozien:

    Got any real evidence to the contrary? Evidence that schizophrenia, epilepsy or bipolar disorder are linked in any way at all to refined sugar consumption, impaired glucose regulation or liver dysfunction for example?

    Not linked as such, but Paul’s ravings aside, certain forms of epilepsy can actually be controlled using a ketogenic diet (which basically involved getting almost all your calories from fat – the staple is 36% fat heavy cream). Why it works isn’t known, and it only works for certain types of juvenile epilepsy which tend to be uncontrollable with medication. It’s not an alt-med thing; it’s a case of “if it really works, it’s not ‘alternative’”. Although I think it has been co-opted by anti-sugar wooists like Paul for things that it doesn’t work on. And you really don’t want to live on that diet if you don’t have to – besides the food being horribly bland (you have to stick strictly to it, so there’s a limited number of ingredients you can use), consuming that much fat can cause various health problems down the line. The kinds of epilepsy that it works on are usually those you grow out of, though.

    FTR, I have epilepsy (though not that type), and have interacted with a number of people whose kids are on the diet.

  170. #171 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 15, 2012

    Billy Graham acting on the part of God causes the worst alcoholism of all. Vitamin deficiencies in alcoholics are caused by eating shit, vomiting all over the place, being deranged and living in the most appalling conditions. Being so bloody depressed you just want to be dead, but can’t kill yourself because you’re gonna burn in Hell forever.

    Wake up in the morning late hung over, sitting on the end of the bed weeping because the day before you told yourself you were gonna definitely stop drinking that day and the day before and the one before that.

    Nobody wants to come near you because you stink so much, having a shower no more than once a week. The house is full of filth everywhere. I lived in a home made house that had no shower or toilet, miles out of Portland. It was on land that would eventually be washed away by the sea, the effect of building Portland harbor. The bloke I bought the house off gut a bunch of mates around, put on a barrel of beer for them whilst the ‘built’ the house from secondhand material. I was so deranged I used to shit into a garbage tin in the bloody kitchen, put the lid back on and leave it there. One night a bunch of ‘mates’ turned up drunk and they proceeded to open my kitchen cupboards, throw all of my buggered crockery out onto the floor, eggs, flour, everything then jump on them to show me how much they loved me whilst laughing their heads off. This was after I lost the first boat. That stuff just remained there for months.

    I had one alcoholic mate who used to visit me and we’d get into the cheap plonk together. One day I picked up a lump hammer and began whaling into a 100 lb porta gas cylinder, not caring if it exploded. He went straight through the back window and the last I saw of him was him running across paddocks.

    Hell, Billy Graham style. More dangerous than Bin Ladin. He preached a message of fanatical puritanism, total holiness, washed in the sacred blood of the lamb, with the fanatical large eyes of the hyperthyroid schizophrenic that he was. Then he went on about the abomination of backsliding, ‘A dog turned unto it’s own vomit, putting the salvation of Jesus to an open shame’.

    He had a verse for every stage of your progression into psychosis. It was inevitable that you backslid, given the total impossibility of living up to this ‘being filled with, taken over, by the spirit. Then ‘My spirit shall not always strive with the man.’ I went forward in Sydney 1959 and lasted just a few years in a Baptist church. Became an ab diver in 1967. I figured that I’d rededicate myself when he came back in 1969 to Melbourne. I had rededicated myself several times at Gospel meetings trying to recharge the batteries, but nothing produced the ‘transcendental’ experience’ of when I first went forward in 1959. ‘Just as I am without one plea, that thy blood was shed for me, and that thou bidst me come to thee, oh Lamb of God I come I come.’ 2,000 voice choir singing it, everybody weeping, Billy intoning you to come forward. ‘Give your life to Christ, now.’ Incredible relief as you go forward, tears steaming down your face. You are on fire for about a fortnight. Then the batteries begin to go down.

    Maybe i hadn’t been saved after all. Where was this ‘If any man be in Christ he is a new creature, behold old things pass away, all things are become as new’. Why wasn’t I on fire for the Lord. Nobody was. I just didn’t realize it. They were all insane, pretending, doing their best to put on a brave face. act all holy, pray with great eloquence, all show.

    I just didn’t make it to the Billy Graham in 1969 as I wasn’t motivated enough. The ‘spirit’ had gone out. ‘My Spirit will not always strive with the man’.

    Then comes the King hit, ‘He who hardeneth his heart shall suddenly be cut off, AND THAT WITHOUT REMEDY.” You have committed the most abominable sin possible and now burning FOREVER is inevitable. Another jug please.
    Thank you Billy for my journey into the flames. The only way you can cope is to be unconscious but don’t get killed drunk driving because you are going to HELL. Bullshit, you ARE in Hell. Billy Graham, Rasputin to the Republican White House, gave Nixon and George Bush Senior the okay from God to commit mass murder. Rasputin to the military industrial complex. Jesus with 11 aircraft carrier fleets and a massive nuclear arsenal. THAT’S insanity.

  171. #172 paul hill
    July 15, 2012

    THE ‘LOVE’ OF GOD.
    When God created the Devil he had to give him free will so that he could think for himself and thus be entertaining company for God right, but not too much free will because after all God was God. Some free will otherwise the Devil would be a boring dodo. But then the Devil got pissed off with getting pushed around by God and tried to foment a coup d’etat among the cherubims, seruphims, angels and archangels etc. But God, being omniescent and omnipitent, just like the Pope, knew that this was going to happen before he even created the poor bastard.

    Then God throws a mainspring and creates Hell and banishes the Devil into Hell as punishment for behaving precisely as he was predetermined to do whilst knowing it was gonna happen. God’s looking a tad irrational even at this early stage.

    Then he creates man and does precisely the same thing as with the Devil, gives man free will to choose, good or evil. the difference being very poorly defined. What FREE BLOODY WILL. He gives a bloke a pecker, pours gallons of pecker juice into him then says DON”T TOUCH IT, DON”T THINK ABOUT, LEAVE IT ALONE. But the only way one can do that is to be unconscious from the piss, too drunk to even have a nocturnal emission, which is also a no no. But by wiping himself out on the piss he is defiling the frigging temple of God and will burn in Hell for that as well.

    Now let’s take a gander at Hell. I read a book once written by a Catholic Priest. He says, “Remember what it was like when you burned yourself on the stove as a kid. Ah, eee, ahhh, AAAAHHHGH AAAAAAAHHHHHGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!
    Right now imagine that all over your entire body. Then multiply it a thousand times and it’s FOREEEEVER and EVER AND EVER AND EVER. Not good. By the usual standard this was a SANE priest.

    After 4,000 years, using bishop Usher’s highly scientific calculations, God get’s around to thinking he might have overdone it a tad. So he sends the Spook down to Earth (don’t know when he arrived) to impregnate a girl, a virgin just to keep things nice and clean and holy like. Enter Jesus to save man, from what? The wrath of God stupid. Eh? What? You see God cannot look upon sin but apparently Jesus has been configured by God to be able to. All the kid has to do is allow himself to be bashed and butchered and everything will be honkey dory and man has an escape route. God’s own kid!!! WHAAAAAT? Give it a break. Is God rational and reasonable. Of course not. You are using man’s concepts. It’s all about FAITH and faith is incompatible with reason. God is PROUD to be counter-intuitive. For by Faith are ye saved through grace. Ohhhh!

    God, it’s time for your ECT and medication. Come on don’t obfuscate.

    Shit, I’m gonna be in strife if there IS something up there.

    Paul the totally reformed ex Blasphemer.

    Post a comment

  172. #173 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 15, 2012

    I hope nobody is offended by my ‘ravings’.

  173. #174 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 15, 2012

    Every fundamentalist Christian and Catholic Church are hard core mental asylums, Baptist being the most hard core. The rest are less hard core but asylums nevertheless. The parishioners have the same ideation of the clinical schizophrenic but don’t exhibit the more overt symptoms of extreme anxiety, auditory hallucinations etc. because there is a lot of them to reinforce each others psychosis and provide mutual support. There is no shrink ready to pounce on them because he too is probably is a member of one of these asylums.

    They don’t face ECT, lobotomies, rejection and loneliness, homelessness, medication, the community being frightened of them, hiding the axes and knives etc. The Church asylums are SANCTIONED by the state as sane, hence the moodswing derived from eating refined sugar by these parishioners does not manifest itself in the more extreme overt form as in those designated as mental asylums by the state, because it’s parishioners are not LABELED as schizophrenic, ie MAD and thus BAD.

    These Church psychotics are SANE and GOOD and look down their noses at the ones labelled as BAD and MAD. You actually can’t have one without the other. It is the label schizophrenic which increases the anxiety level many fold, thus MAGNIFYING their moodswing to clinical proportions.

    When the brothers Wesley used to preach fire and brimstone in Scotland, people in the audience used to fall to the ground and convulse violently. These fits would spread all over the place, into homes, factories etc. as the wrath of the Lord was passed around. Mass hysteria on a massive scale. I wonder how much sugar THEY ate, or was it the sweetness of Jesus.

  174. #175 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 15, 2012

    Midnight Rambler, Midnight Rambler, Midnight Rambler,

    ‘Not linked as such, but Paul’s ravings aside, certain forms of epilepsy can actually be controlled using a ketogenic diet (which basically involved getting almost all your calories from fat – the staple is 36% fat heavy cream). ‘WHY IT WORKS ISN’T KNOWN’.

    Mr Rambler, Am I coming in loud and clear, are you reading me. Have you removed your sunglasses, the scales from your eyes. Can some one send Mr. Rambler a message via, telepathy, smoke signal, pigeon, ESP, FAX etc.

    Why it works IS known. Let me repeat that. Why it works IS KNOWN. IT IS BECAUSE TO GET INTO KETOSIS YOU HAVE TO ELIMINATE CARB FROM YOUR DIET. SUGAR IS A CARB. Are you devoted to your epilepsy. Would you feel lost without it. Does it elicit much needed sympathy.

    Could you lower yourself, risk ridicule from your peers by giving up sugar to see what happen?. Would it be excruciatingly humiliating to tell me what med you are on? Write it in very tiny letters and I’ll use a magnifying glass to read it. I promise I won’t tell any one. Is this post visible to anyone else but me? That’s a stupid question.

  175. #176 Krebiozen
    July 15, 2012

    I’m uncomfortable writing anything in a public forum that could be construed as encouraging drug use, quite apart from derailing this thread even further. I know that many people can run into serious problems with drugs, but I also know that many people use recreational drugs with no apparent ill effects. I have known many highly successful people over the years who have regularly used recreational drugs of various sorts. One problem is that if you deny the existence of the second group, young people may come across them and assume you are also lying about the existence of the first group. Another problem is that you may not find out which group you belong to until your life is thoroughly screwed up. A good rule of thumb might be that if you enjoy taking drugs, you probably shouldn’t, and if you don’t enjoy taking them there is little point. It’s a difficult and thorny issue, but I am inclined to think that legalizing all drugs, buying them direct from the source, cutting out the huge criminal black market, taxing them and putting tax revenues into massive education and rehabilitation programs would very likely be a better way of approaching it than prohibition.

    Narad,

    I haven’t touched a one of them in well over a decade, but I was always curious about the seeming separation reported between 2C-B (strongly visual) and 2C-E (more of an all-out assault on the ego). As for LSD, at this point I’d be of a mind with Loudon Wainwright’s conclusion to “The Acid Song”: “Hold out for mushrooms instead.”

    You brought back vivid memories of a small festival in the UK a few decades ago where a Shulginesque alchemist friend of mine dosed me with a combination of mushroons and 2-CB. The visual hallucinations were so overwhelming in the dark I had to be led back to our campfire to reanchor my visual cortex. A bit scary.

    The hashish generally sold to tourists in Morocco used to be the same horrible soap-bar that was ubiquitous in Europe some years ago. If you got off the beaten track a little, there was good quality stuff to be found. I shudder to think what could have happened to me if I had been caught by the police out there. I was once arrested in Cairo with a small piece of hashish in my pocket that I managed to jettison before getting to the police station. The foolishness of youth…

    Denice,

    since at least one of you has been to Morocco I imagine you are familar with kif: I found it somewhat hallucinogenic, producing interesting visual phenomena.

    Somewhat familiar. I do have a fond memory of hammering through some of the most beautiful scenery I have ever seen in the Anti-Atlas mountains after consuming a little too much kif from the Rif, in a shared taxi full of veiled women with kohled eyes with extraordinary Moroccan music pounding out of the car’s sound system. Morocco is gloriously exotic.

    Paul Hill,

    Just about ever schizophrenic im my town has put on a huge amount of weight. Many may have type 2 diabetes. (a post on diabetes later.)

    I agree that psychiatry and the pharmaceuticals used are by no means perfect. However, I don’t think your alternative approach would be either effective or practical. The world would undoubtedly be a better place if everyone had a decent upbringing, was well fed with emotional support and intellectual encouragement etc. but I don’t believe that all mental illness is due to environment. The world’s not perfect and we are where we are.

    Depends on what you call lifesavers especially if there are lifestyle change alternatives which shrinks don’t even consider. If you are talking injections I assume you are talking Modecate used for COMPULSORY medication, an abuse if ever there was one.

    My friend had killed his own mother in a frenzied attack. The depot injections were a condition of his release back into society. I don’t really know what other reasonable approach could be taken. You have to balance people’s human rights against pubic safety. I know that my tale is unusual, and that the vast majority of people with mental health problems pose no kind of threat to others, but when you have that sort of experience, it’s hard not to let it affect the way you think about these problems.

    That is my PERSONAL experience having been binned twice myself and been part of a drug culture for many years, known HEAPS of people with schizophrenia. No I’m not saying sugar alone, nothing like it, stress, booze, shit food, toxins in environment and on and on. I’m saying the PRIMARY ones are refined sugar and liver pathology.

    I get that, but I still disagree. If your hypothesis was correct, you would expect that to show up in epidemiological studies of the prevalence of schizophrenia. It doesn’t. Prevalence of schizophrenia is remarkably constant across countries and cultures, though developing countries have lower rates, despite the poorer diets people have (I still remember seeing an advert for Fruit Beer in India with the tagline “All artificial ingredients”, and pesticides, drugs etc banned in the developed world are regularly dumped on developing countries), and migrants have higher rates for reasons that are still unclear.

    Why was your youth misspent by taking drugs? They were an essential part of my education.

    I would say that psychedelics were a part of my education, but the most important thing they taught me is that what appears to me to be external reality is in fact generated by my brain and projected “out there”. Some beautiful, awe-inspiring, blissful and terrifying experiences, for sure, but any profound lessons apart from the one I just outlined? Not really (though that’s about as profound as it gets if you really grok it in its fullness, man).

    Now, depends on how old you are as to the strength of the acid you go as it seems to have fallen dramatically. Now while it isn’t possible for the user to know, the Clear Light drops on blotting paper I used to use were alleged to be around 200 micrograms.

    True, the average dose these days is said to be around 60 micrograms, and LSD seems to be used more as a recreational drug than as an entheogen these days. Most of my experiences were with mushrooms (psilocybin).and on several occasions I took what proved to be a substantial overdose which was, er, interesting (if finding yourself fragmented out of your body flying like a howling banshee round and round the ceiling can be called interesting). This is a side-issue though. Few people would argue that large doses of psychedelics have a profound effect on a person’s state of conscioiusness. I’m glad to see that psychedelics are finally being studied again, as there may be therapeutic potential that has been neglected.Are you aware that a single low dose of LSD or some other psychedelics is reputed to prevent migraines and cluster (suicide) headaches for up to a year?

    People who came to me and told me that they no longer suffer migraines AT ALL, FINITO, GONE, VAMOOSED.

    I believe you, but anecdotal experiences are notoriously misleading, and just because changing a migraineur’s diet helped them does not vindicate your explanations. I used to get migraines but they stopped a few years ago for no apparent reason. If anything I consume more refined carbohydrates now than I did when I used to get the migraines.

    Vasospasm, my explanation up above, osmotic pressure changes.

    We do have a pretty good idea of what happens in the brains of people suffering miigraines, thanks to neuroimaging and other techniques. I suggest you look into this. I don’t think osmotic pressure changes come into it.

    I’ll get into epilepsy later.

    I don’t buy your theories about seizures pumping lactic acid out of muscles either. People in lactic acidosis don’t generally go into seizures, and epileptics are not generally suffering from lactic acidosis. Muscle spasms are more characteristic of alkalosis due to its effects on ionized calcium levels.

    ‘Dinosaur skeletons show signs of cancer and arthritis long before humans existed’. Rapid environmental change? Asteroid impact, huge forest fires resulting, pyrobenzynes in air etc. What era?

    I did provide some links. The real issue here is that some people blame a modern lifestyle for degenerative diseases, and to some extent this is true, but another reason is that we live longer and degenerative diseases are diseases of old age. The argument that we are all sick because of our environment doesn’t really fit with that fact that we are all living longer.

    There is a radical difference between tongue in cheek and sarcasm, my son. Not to worry. More to come.

    You may be the first thin-skiinned Aussie I have ever encountered ;-)

  176. #177 Krebiozen
    July 15, 2012

    Apologies for the screwed up link in my comment that just went into moderation. I closed a blockquote instead of the link. How much would we have to bug Orac to get him to turn on preview?

  177. #178 Denice Walter
    July 15, 2012

    @ politicalguineapig:

    Many people with mental illness- serious or not- do have issues because of side effects which can be formidable. When woo-meisters say that SSRIs or atypical anti-psychotics have side-effects- they aren’t lying: they do however exaggerate their frequency, the balance of therapeutic effects and the fact that often switching meds helps. They tend to talk about suicides and diabetes, respectively. End of story.

    I’ve done some work with families of people with SMI in the past; I also have a family with -usually- mild depression, dysthymia – including myself with the latter-and know quite a few people with related issues. It’s no walk in the park. Anosognosia does however refer to more serious cases when the person’s link with reality is questionable, much like a stroke patient who doesn’t recognise perhaps inability to move an arm because the area of the brain that evaluates this is also affected by the stroke. A similar situation may arise in schizophrenia.

    And stigma is a real problem: it can affect how people relate to you, your employment et al. It’s no help that alt med people are out there ( in both senses of the term) making up folk tales about mental illness being non-existent or easily fixable. It’s another place where pseudo-science harms people.

    I know people with life long struggles with depression- one probably complicated by post-traumatic issues involving terrorism long ago. Sometimes they evolve strategies to counter the symptoms – one person makes sure he has important work to do and the other has religious faith to encourage her to ‘hold on’. I think that many in my own family have a sort of resilience and I don’t know whether that is learned or biological ( perhaps we don’t have very severe physiological issues). Sometimes meds help enough to enable people to be able to live a more typical life without the bleakness and paralysis they might feel.

  178. #179 Denice Walter
    July 15, 2012

    @ Narad:

    Ha! I made a point of not using anything if travelling so my experiments were restricted to places I was living. Women have to be careful with these things so I also never *bought* anything myself. For some reason, men I knew were very gracious about obliging Being a student in the mid-late seventies probably made us more likely to imbibe: it was everywhere; as my own studies became more serious graduate work I stopped experiments and found that a tranquiliser now and then did wonders for me.

    I often go to artsy events involving receptions: just last night I wound up at one of these- while looking at some facile edginess that included skeletons and realistically portrayed tropical plants I remarked to another onlooker -who was about 25- that I found it interesting but a bit too “Dia de los Muertos” for me- he immediately asked me if I wanted to go outside and “smoke”- he didn’t say what. Seriously. I am over 50, didn’t come alone and I have young childen offering me candy. Of course, I said no. I suppose even the young can spot a fellow traveller at 30 paces.

  179. #180 Narad
    July 15, 2012

    Women have to be careful with these things so I also never *bought* anything myself.

    Oh, certainly. Friendly strangers sometimess are just friendly, but sometimes they’ll invite you over to their jazz club, take your bags including your passport hostage, only return them when your other friend, who happens to be a seven-foot-tall Mauritanian, is summoned, lifts one of them in the air, sets him down, and suggests that they rethink this, and then appear to return everything only to have it later turn out that the weirdos kept your diaphragm. (Rabat, I believe.)

  180. #181 Narad
    July 15, 2012

    How much would we have to bug Orac to get him to turn on preview?

    I think he would have to be bugged to bug the NG monkeys to install a WP plugin that provides it–it’s not just a switch.

  181. #182 Narad
    July 15, 2012

    And you really don’t want to live on that diet if you don’t have to – besides the food being horribly bland (you have to stick strictly to it, so there’s a limited number of ingredients you can use)

    I certainly wouldn’t want to eat a 4:1 diet, but I don’t see why it would have to be bland as opposed to simply monotonous.

  182. #183 Krebiozen
    July 15, 2012

    Friendly strangers sometimess are just friendly

    Mostly they are, but sometimes they will take you out into the desert and introduce you to some nomads and, while you are traveling a couple of hundred miles across the Anti-Atlas mountains to pick up your luggage, they try it on with your girlfriend who you have left there. With luck they won’t realize you can speak French and can communicate with said nomads, and explain the situation. The nomads gave the young guys responsible a serious telling off and they rather ungraciously left us there. We were abandoned in the middle of nowhere for a few days, very pleasantly as it happened, until someone else turned up with a car and rescued us. We had my girlfriend’s 6 year-old son with us too. As I said, the folly of youth. That was somewhere near Guelmim.

  183. #184 Politicalguineapig
    July 15, 2012

    DW:When woo-meisters say that SSRIs or atypical anti-psychotics have side-effects- they aren’t lying: they do however exaggerate their frequency, the balance of therapeutic effects and the fact that often switching meds helps. They tend to talk about suicides and diabetes, respectively. End of story.

    Side effects were always a problem for me, ranging from a few addictive symptoms to weight gain, insomnia and anemia.

  184. #185 Krebiozen
    July 15, 2012

    I have to say “a seven-foot-tall Mauritanian” immediately makes me think of Hunter S. Thompson.

  185. #186 Denice Walter
    July 15, 2012

    @ Narad:
    @ Krebiozen:

    Fortunately, I have never been robbed, raped, threatened, held captive, abandonned in the desert et al.
    However, I have been FOLLOWED while travelling in exotic locales… by exotic fellows. One or two were a bit scary while another was merely odd- a very young Algerian ( I suppose) in Paris : I keep noticing him over the duration of a long day. Never went any further and I wasn’t really worried because he was only about my size and it didn’t happen in an isolated area. Maybe he liked my clothes and wanted them? ( I’m not calling him a tranny because most of my clothes might work rather well on a 15 year old boy- I would have given him my jacket) I have no idea.

    And we all live to tell the tale! On second thought- especially when thinking of days gone by- and hearing of some of the exploits of my friends ( much worse than any related here) I wonder what the locals thought of people like *us*: hippies, artsy girls and gay boys- done up in trendily louche threads, getting high, drinking, *consorting* … oh, crazy white people.
    They’d have been right mostly.

  186. #187 Krebiozen
    July 15, 2012

    Denice,

    I wonder what the locals thought of people like *us*: hippies, artsy girls and gay boys- done up in trendily louche threads, getting high, drinking, *consorting* … oh, crazy white people. They’d have been right mostly.

    I did some anthropological fieldwork in Egypt, and found it ironic that my informants were desperate for a taste of western life, while I was there to get away from it. I encountered several heartbroken young men and assisted them in writing love letters to European women who had had a vacation fling with them, and gone home. I rwad an anthropological study of such behavior, called “F@cking Tourists” which I think is one of the best titles I ever came across. I ran into an Irish novelist while I was in Egypt, and mentioned how much I admired the family support network there. She launched into a tirade about how stifling her upbringing in rural Ireland had been and how horrible it was having everyone knowing what you were doing, where you had been and with who. Morocco was similar, I remember being sent off to buy a bottle of wine from a local hotel, during Ramadan, then sitting with the young men while one of them strummed a guitar and sang a Dire Straits number, which was not the world music I was hoping to hear. The grass is always greener I guess.

  187. #188 Mrs Woo
    July 15, 2012

    @Politicalguineapig – currently my son has a cavie named “Fezzik.” It’s terrible – it hears me talk and it starts “wheeking” like all get out. That makes me feel special (and a little guilty if I don’t do what’s expected next) and he gets some fresh veggies. I think he has trained me instead of vice versa!

  188. #189 Denice Walter
    July 15, 2012

    @ Krebiozen:

    Aha! That’s another issue: they really *liked* us girls. My friend travelled overland just before the Iranian Revolution (Istanbul to India; also Peru, Panama) taking photos and met many, many men on trains, in the market.. she is quite impressively tall and I guess that that made an impression. She got involved. I never went that far- in both senses. I think I was watched, persued for other reasons..probably because I really stick out in the crowd- very white, fair hair, spiffy clothes.- l’m an archetype, I guess. This was very apparent in various Caribbean locals.That’s another story.

  189. #190 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    July 15, 2012

    the Narcissist: “I might as well bash me head into a bloody tree.”

    So, why don’t you? You’d make life a lot more pleasant for the rest of the world.

    the Narcissistic arsehole: “I hope nobody is offended by my ‘ravings’.”

    Good. We’re not. What we are is fucking bored with them. Not that you give a shit, because your head’s too far up inside your arsehole to give a shit. Sadly. For you, that is; because people with their heads rammed that far up their arses look stupid.

    Composer99: “At least Th1Th2′s posts were short & pithy.”

    Shit situation when someone can actually make you ‘miss’ an idiot like Twat1Twat2, no?

    Moronic narcissist: “Go back and take a look at what I have copped from the very beginning and it goes on and on and on.”

    Ever thought about why you cop that lot? Just about everybody here can see why.

    Krebiozen: “I’m not pleading with you to vamoose. I’m pleading with you to go back to basics and check some of your facts before posting any more vast tracts of nonsense.”

    That’ll do no good. Paul HIll is one of those people you cannot expect to get to think: head too far up own arsehole to be bothered with knowing that other people could be (and in his case, are) correct in their knowledge where he isn’t.

    Arrogant shit-wit: “Why on earth would I want to start my own blog when I’m having so much fun drawing the fire of meat heads who know bugger all of anything.”

    Project much, arsehole?

  190. #191 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    in line with a comment in moderation...
    July 15, 2012

    … I soooo hope it gets through …. shows how much of a fan I am of narcissists…. not!

  191. #192 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    July 15, 2012

    Chris: “Which is why I am now just ignoring Mr. Hill. He is not worth it.”

    That doesn’t help with narcissists… they end up going around provoking responses just to get their supply of attention.

    Chris. “Though I do wish he would get some real help.”

    No chance of that. Narcissists manage to rationalise themselves into believing that the problem is everyone else, and that they are in fact the one who is right (even when it is plainly obvious that they are not right). Even if a court mandated it, the ‘help’ wouldn’t work… they’d fake it (in much the same way that psychopaths do). Best treatment for a narcissist: a dustbin.

  192. #193 paul hill
    July 15, 2012

    Krebiozen,

    ‘I don’t buy your theories about seizures pumping lactic acid out of muscles either. People in lactic acidosis don’t generally go into seizures, and epileptics are not generally suffering from lactic acidosis. Muscle spasms are more characteristic of alkalosis due to its effects on ionized calcium levels’.

    Jesus wept, you are validating what I am saying. They don’t experience fits because there is heaps of lactic acid available for gluconeogenesis. I’m saying that the convulsions are to get the lactic acid OUT of the muscles as quickly as possible as there is insufficient available. Another point is the the fall in pH with the accumulation in the muscles of lactic acid inhibits glycolysis, thereby limiting lactic acid production. The convulsions do both, increase lactic acid production and make it more available.
    Lactic acidosis is generally associated with untreated Diabetes I combined with liver failure and often combines with Keto acidosis complicated by renal failure. Metabolic acidosis.

    ‘I believe you, but anecdotal experiences are notoriously misleading, and just because changing a migraineur’s diet helped them does not vindicate your explanations. I used to get migraines but they stopped a few years ago for no apparent reason. If anything I consume more refined carbohydrates now than I did when I used to get the migraines’.

    The oldest fudge in the book, anecdotal. Have you checked your urine for glucose. In Oliver Sack’s book ‘Migraine’ he mentions that when people who have migraine then develop diabetes I the migraines stop. Why, because they no longer experience hypoglycaemia. They can when and if they start injecting insulin.

    ‘My friend had killed his own mother in a frenzied attack. The depot injections were a condition of his release back into society. I don’t really know what other reasonable approach could be taken’

    Laing mentions young women schizophrenics assaulting their MOTHERS because the mother didn’t protect daughter from sexual assault by the father, a betrayal by a fellow female, even worse abuse than the male assault in the daughter’s mind. You expect men to be bastards but not YOU being the militant reason.

    Had this man been violently/sexually assaulted by his father? Was it the denial by the mother, which is so common, that provoked the assault. She might be afraid of an assault by her husband if she went to the police, no help from the police. Cops assaulting their children, shrinks, magistrates, male nurses and on and on. No help from anyone, not just denial but vilification from everyone for making up these dreadful lies. Mad and evil, despised and alienated so much the paranoia goes berserk. Denial and vilification seen as a giant conspiracy, with mother at the center of it. I know all about it. Everybody is mad in this scenario for denying the obvious, covering up their own ‘sins’. Outdoing each other with their self righteousness to prove their own ‘purity.’ Rockspider daddy gets broken beer bottle rammed into his face in pub, by other rockspider demonstrating his hatred of rockspiders, that HE’s not one. Only one gets diagnosed THE VICTIM. This is the REAL very ugly face of insanity not the vomit in the text books on schizophrenia as they have all been whitewashed for obvious reasons.

    Naturally the rage builds to boiling point, frenzied knife attack. Lots of things have to change in society to prevent this happening. First is the TRUTH coming out. ‘For ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set ye free.’ Not the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.

  193. #194 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 15, 2012

    David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.

    You sound VERY desperate to shut me up. I wonder why?

  194. #195 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 16, 2012

    What I have described above is what Laing was beginning to talk about, getting a lot of people very uptight. I don’t know what his last book was but “Sanity, Madness and The Family’ got very close but wasn’t explicit enough. He doesn’t go as far as actually saying ‘This father was obviously a pedophile’ The end result was the appearance that Laing blamed the mothers for mollycoddling the schizophrenic child, thus copping it from feminists who should have supported him.

    He left himself wide open on enough issues for British society to have excuses to discredit him, being a socialist, not looking at diet at all, David Cooper talking about a compassionate bomb in the heart of the establishment when the psychiatry movement started to unravel.

    This is exactly what happened to me. I saw myself as continuing where Laing left off. I added a section on Schizophrenia in my Migraine book, talking also about sexual abuse by Catholic priests linked to schizophrenia. It just so happened that a couple of priests in my town had been caught out, one eventually getting 16 years in the slammer. A few schizophrenics were coming from as far away from Geelong to get my booklet and talk to me.

    Next thing the owner of my rented house and a plumber illegally smashed open the wall and clamped off my water pipes, ripped my front door off and threw it over the back gate of the building next door. I had been under huge pressure, even by friends to take a converted garage to rent miles out of town. It was their animosity I couldn’t understand. I refused because I knew that schizophrenics were not going to look for me out of town. The place I was living in was a few yards down a lane from the bus stop. I got the back door and nailed it back into place. and took my case to the Residential Tribunal and got a stay.

    Then I found out that a friend of mine had done deal behind my back to demolish my place, which was going to be demolished anyway and get all the secondhand building material as payment. His brother in law, a close friend of mine, wanted the material to build his shack and he was part of the deal as well. No help from anywhere just animosity and betrayal..

    I was absolutely desperate. So I packed a big bag of camping gear and disappeared into the National Park. I already had put several stashes of food there. I kept moving my camp to escape detection getting into denser and denser forest. The idea was that my disappearance would attract media attention and EVERYTHING would come out, including the circumstances of my boat accidents.

    Finally I was discovered by park rangers. I refused to leave and they couldn’t kick me out without a court order. Once I was discovered I began to go for walks along the Ocean Road. One day a ranger’s car pulled alongside me with a guy in the passenger seat. The ranger made an excuse about having to go somewhere leaving this guy to talk to me, which I thought was a bit odd. We talked for about an hour and he got picked up and I went back to camp.

    A few days later this bloke turned up with a ranger and a woman. You guessed it a psychiatrist. The stranger was a psyche nurse. They tried to persuade me to come with them and I refused. I found out later that three Apollo Bay cops were up on the road but the sergeant refused to come down and get me out. He said that I wasn’t violent, that the rangers had created the problem and they could fix it.

    A few days later the psyche nurse turned up with thee Colac cops. I accompanied them out without a fuss, telling them that you’d think I was the head of the Bader-MIenhoff given the overkill, that they were being used by the rangers, which they agreed to with good humor. The two cops cars went back to Colac with me and the nurse. A cop said that obviously I wasn’t a problem so I was driven down to Geelong in one car, a cop in the back, cop driving and the nurse in front passenger seat. I suddenly twrigged where we we were going and said to the nurse ‘I know where we are going, Dax house.’ the psychiatric division of Geelong central hospital. He didn’t say anything and I looked forward to my new adventure and what I would learn, a HELLUVA lot as it turned out. That was about 18 years ago and just the beginning of a holocaust of abuse which I’ll describe in the second half.

    ‘All of the darkness CANNOT put out the light of one tiny candle’.

  195. #196 Narad
    July 16, 2012

    You sound VERY desperate to shut me up. I wonder why?

    Paul, I don’t think anybody much gives a damn.

  196. #197 Politicalguineapig
    July 16, 2012

    Narad: Friendly strangers sometimes are just friendly.

    I’m hoping to travel someday, but even in my native city that’s an assumption I never make.

    Mrs. Woo: Heh. We took care of a friend’s cavies once, and they learned to ‘wheek’ from our pair. (Sadly, all concerned are deceased.) I’d better stop responding to you; at this rate I’m going to go out and buy a pair. I always had pairs, except for the one time that I had three and occasional guests.

    DW: I tend not to tell anyone about my depression because of the stigma and the fact that I had a fairly minor case of it. I had a few minor episodes of self-mutilation- no scarring- and that was it. For me, the main thing that helps is stuffing down my emotions till they can be detonated in an appropriate venue.
    Paul Hill: There are other commentors here who can tell you exactly what is wrong with Laing, so I’ll just ask one quick question. Why was Laing studying ‘young girls’ when schizophrenia, in women, tends to be found most often among premenopausal women? Makes me wonder if he just took another entirely different disorder and lumped it in with schizophrenia. Wouldn’t be the first time that had happened.

  197. #198 Krebiozen
    July 16, 2012

    Paul Hill,
    In my opinion you are suffering from premature certainty, a common human condition characterized by ignoring, distorting or rejecting (as fabricated by Big Sugar in your case) any evidence that doesn’t fit with your prejudices. Real scientists look for evidence that falsifies their hypotheses. What evidence would you accept that would falsify yours? The answer is none, I suspect, because you already know the truth so anything that contradicts that must be a lie. That is the definition of closed-mindedness and makes further meaningful discussion impossible.

  198. #199 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 16, 2012

    Narad,
    Take a gander at the three comment prior to mine, all by David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E. showing his mug shot, first one I’ve seen so far, obviously responding to my criticism that everybody hides behind a pseudonym and all those letters after his name denoting that he is more than qualified to discredit me entirely which he so vitriolically attempts to do. I didn’t come down in the last shower. Maybe I’m being paranoid.

    Politicalguineapig,
    You obviously have read the book from cover to cover. What Laing was trying to achieve with these cases was an admission by the abuser in order to effect a cure of the schizophrenia. No admission no cure. He also said that overt schizophrenia (early onset) manifested at puberty when sexual arousal, menstruation etc added a huge range of complications to the teenagers life.

    The patents, on opposites of the fence in so many ways, hence the huge range of unresolvable double binds imposed on the child, which are a major factor in the disorder, decide to split, maybe divorce. The manifestation of the symptoms on the child adds to their polarization and likewise impose even worse double binds on the child. Each parent seeks custody of the child on the condition that he or she completely go along with their belief systems, rejecting that of the other parent entirely or goodby. Each parent blames the other for the child’s behavior.

    The most horrendous dilemma, impossible. Child is FORCED to lie to each parent then punished when found out. Yet both parent lie incessantly themselves, contradict each other, contradict themselves all the time. Paranoia runs amok, diagnosed schizophrenia. Parents decide to stick out their relationship until the child gets well, for the sake of the child? That never comes, Hell on Earth all round forever. Who is mad?

    I think you read premenstrual.

  199. #200 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 16, 2012

    Krebiozen,
    With all due consideration, aren’t you describing yourself perfectly. Just because you have so little self esteem and self confidence you label me as a megalomaniac essentially.

    ‘Real scientists look for evidence that falsifies their hypotheses’. Hoh, really, now come on Bloody hell. You trying to be a stand up comic or sit down one. That’s what they tell themselves, whilst the very opposite is true in my experience. Just the standard hypocrisy of society, it’s self delusions, it’s schizophrenia.

    ‘What evidence would you accept that would falsify yours?’ Anything if it makes sense. You have given me plenty and I have answered them to any reasonable person’s satisfaction. Eg the convulsions in epilepsy. You keep saying you don’t believe this or that, doesn’t accord with what you have learned, but don’t provide an alternative, hiding behind decades of so called research.

    My models come straight out of the text books of a range of disciplines including each of the organs of the body, and the structures of the surrounding Universe. All of the bits of the jigsaw have to fit into ONE COHESIVE WHOLE PERFECTLY. Something doesn’t fit, change the paradigm until it does. The ultimate test is how it fits together without forcing something to fit. A cybernetic Universe, cybernetic animal. Yin and Yang. A scientific paper contradicts the model, it more than likely wrong. Ultimately there can be only ONE truth. Anything else is trying to juggle irreconcilable opposites and saying that’s good enough. Well it AIN’T good enough for me. New motto.

    ‘Perfection is not good enough’.

  200. #201 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 16, 2012

    Why do all of those people I irritate so much come on this blog. Why don’t they just bugger off and NOT be irritated. Do they WANT to be irritated. This is a bit like the old biddy who rings the house detective to complain that a man in the building opposite is exposing himself. The detective arrives and says “I can’t see anyone exposing himself”, noticing that the window is pretty high up.’ “Stand on the bed, stand on the bed” she yells at him.

    David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    I must say your language is somewhat intemperate, coarse and vulgar, proletarian even for a man of letters. It does you no credit whatsoever my good man, if you don’t mind me saying or even if you DO mind me saying. I sincerely hope your peers aren’t watching otherwise your reputation and status could be seriously compromised

  201. #202 Politicalguineapig
    July 16, 2012

    Paul Hill: Nope. It does start a little earlier than I thought, but not anywhere around the premenstrual years. Excuse the error; I was working off the first result I found, which seems to be inaccurate and out of date.
    From Schizophrenia.com:

    Schizophrenia is a disease that typically begins in early adulthood; between the ages of 15 and 25. Men tend to develop schizophrenia slightly earlier than women; whereas most males become ill between 16 and 25 years old, most females develop symptoms several years later, and the incidence in women is noticably higher in women after age 30. The average age of onset is 18 in men and 25 in women. Schizophrenia onset is quite rare for people under 10 years of age, or over 40 years of age.

    Still, 25 is hardly premenstrual; unless you happen to believe women don’t enter puberty till their twenties. And again, your attempted defense of Laing only adds to the impression that he was rather voyueristic and domineering. Not to mention, a mother-blaming asshole like most psychiatrists of his time.
    And ya know, I knew a fair number of kids who came from split households. (Sounds better and more accurate then ‘broken homes.’) None of them are schizophrenic, and again, there’d be a heck of a lot more schizophrenics if divorce happened to be the villain.

    As to why we respond to you, well, that’s really rather simple, Mr. Hill. You’re a bit of entertainment.

  202. #203 Krebiozen
    July 16, 2012

    My models come straight out of the text books of a range of disciplines including each of the organs of the body, and the structures of the surrounding Universe. All of the bits of the jigsaw have to fit into ONE COHESIVE WHOLE PERFECTLY. Something doesn’t fit, change the paradigm until it does. The ultimate test is how it fits together without forcing something to fit. A cybernetic Universe, cybernetic animal. Yin and Yang. A scientific paper contradicts the model, it more than likely wrong.

    There we have it in a nutshell. If any evidence disagrees with Paul Hill’s grandiose hypotheses, it is “more than likely wrong”. If that’s not narcissistic megolomania I don’t know what is. It’s pointless trying to have a rational discussion with someone like that. I give up.

  203. #204 Narad
    July 16, 2012

    Take a gander at the three comment prior to mine, all by David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E. showing his mug shot

    I block Gravatar, Paul, so I see no such thing, and really, I don’t know what you’re on about in this regard.

  204. #205 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 16, 2012

    Politicalguineapig,
    Okay, I realize that just being a man makes half of the population arseholes to a lot of women. After all look at the child molestation, domestic violence, murder, rape, assault and so on, it’s bloody appalling. A man can go for a walk in the forest and not even think about coming to harm, and not be the least bit concerned. A woman does likewise and has to consider being violently raped and even eaten. But I’m not going to apologize on their behalf, feel some sort of collective guilt because I am NOT one of them. I spend a lot of my time trying to get through to men women’s concerns.

    A lot of men hate Germain Greer. I think she is great. Her book ‘The Female Eunuch’ poleaxed me, belted me right between the eyes, made me realize just what a chauvinistic bastard I was.. Her pithy language, like a woman being a man’s ‘vaginal spittoon’. She says ‘I’m sitting on the couch with this turd and I’m thinking, Christ I’m gonna be a complete rag by morning if I’ve gotta wrestle with this turd all night. What am I supposed to do, lay on the ground, pull up my dress, point to it, say “Right, use it then piss off”. When is a man gonna realize that NO means NO. Nothing else would have gotten through to me. I was too inhibited to ask a woman out for a couple of years after reading the book, terrified of being ridiculed and going into a shell that I could never get out of. A lot of people, women included, are offended by that language. ‘Foul mouthed bitch’ say some men using far coarser language than her, double standard run amok. For me a relationship with a woman has to a PRECISE one on one relationship, otherwise there is no basis for real friendship, trust and affection.

    Thus I reckon that the attack on Laing by feminists is reading what they want to read just because he is a bloke. I know of schizophrenic girls who HAVE been mollycoddled to the point where they almost can’t function socially, but this has been because the mother has tried to protect the child against violent/sexual abuse by the father AND keep her away from any INFLUENCE by him. She does so many thinks for the child so that he doesnt influence the child even with his male oriented ideas ideas. She is trying to compensate for not having protected the child, but OVER compensating. But, what could she have done. Go talk to a male cop and complain with the possibility of being bashed, to death maybe, by her husband, for dobbing him in. How much sympathy is the male cop gonna give her if he is belting HIS wife around/sexually abusing his kid/s.

    Laing could only go so far in talking about the abuse by the father. He could bring up the subject of the woman mollycoddling without getting a broken bottle rammed into his face or a bomb thrown through his window. But start accusing daddies of being rockspiders and he’d be like Salmaan Rushdie, too frightened to leave the house. I think he thought that if he just muted the male side of the equation the message would still get through, but it DIDN’T, to the relief of a lot of blokes. I start talking about sexual abuse associated with schizophrenia among blokes or in mixed company and there is stunned silence or a desperate attempt to change the subject as quickly as possible. It is the greatest taboo subject on Earth. Even if men have never touched a child they just DON’T want to talk about it, won’t pick a little kid and fondle it, concerned at what people might think, can’t show any affection whatsoever, terrified of what someone might make of it.

    But then there are so many revelations of men in positions of care, eg kids with cancer, where people remark about what a saint he is, how affectionate he is toward the kids. Then it comes out that he’s been sexually abusing them, sometimes exploiting their inability to get away from him because of a disability. This just feeds woman’s suspicions of ALL men.

    But I’m still not taking sides here as I believe that abuse derives from inequality, all social ills, not just abuse. Alienation between the sexes caused by inequality in the OVERALL distribution of wealth. I’ve written a little paper on that but I can’t find it at the moment.

    Now as to the incidence of schizophrenia in families of extreme conflict, there are so many factors involved, more likely when there is NOT a divorce as I stated, but where the parents stick it out for the sake of the child, intending to split when the child gets well. But that might never happen because usually the child just gets progressively worse. They might agree to have affairs, or have them in secret.

    Thanks for the little pat on the head. I really appreciate it.

  205. #206 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 16, 2012

    Krebiozen,
    What’s wrong with megalomania and narcissism. I am EXTREMELY proud of my megalomania. I have no time for false humility and self effacement. It is a waste of my time. Everybody should be a megalomaniac ’cause then there would be no more megalomaniacs, well…relatively speaking. Adolph Hitler could never have gotten out of control if all Germans had been megalomaniacs. They either licked his anal sphincter or put shit on him in which case he had them shot. If everyone in the world were megalomaniacs, no more wars no more nothin’.

    What I’m getting at is WHOLISM. There can be only one model in which everything fits perfectly. If a paper throws a spanner in the FIT then accept it and change the model. If not reject the paper but don’t delete it just in case.

  206. #207 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 17, 2012

    Narad,
    The point I was making that up until the point that David Andrews arrives on this blog nobody had identified them selves to the point where they could be checked online and no mugshots at all. Along comes this bloke fully identifying himself with all these bloody letters after his name saying in sense ‘I am qualified to do a hatchet job on your credibility.’ Right let’s have a look at him.

    David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    I am an applied educational psychologist living/working in Finland, where I have a daughter. In 2006, I achieved a Master of Education degree – with Distinction – in Inclusion, Special Education & Educational Psychology, specialising in educational/developmental difficulties faced by autistic adults from a psychological perspective (following closely the BPS DipEdPsychol syllabus). I then gained a Certificate of Professional Studies in Education, specialising in educational/organisational ethno-psychology/psycho-anthropology. In addition to assessments and counselling, I also design and teach courses related to my professional interests. When not busy being a freelance psycho-educational consultant, consultant educational psychologist for the Finnish Autistic Empowerment Committee, Chairperson of APANA, I taught ESL at a local adult education college. I am also a solo performer (guitars/vocal), doing occasional folkie gigs. Because of new law in force in the UK, this is me: David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E., Psychologist (Teaching, Learning & Development) (UK), Educational Psychologist (Fin), Psycho-

    Educational Consultant (UK/Fin)
    Interests Professional: the applied psychology of education, autistic difficulties in adult life, specific educational needs in relation to adult education, the teaching of mathematical sciences. Personal: music, reading, sauna, spending time with my beautiful autistic daughter.

    David’s Comments. up above.
    the Narcissist: “I might as well bash me head into a bloody tree.”
    So, why don’t you? You’d make life a lot more pleasant for the rest of the world.the Narcissistic arsehole: “I hope nobody is offended by my ‘ravings’.”
    Good. We’re not. What we are is fucking bored with them. Not that you give a shit, because your head’s too far up inside your arsehole to give a shit. Sadly. For you, that is; because people with their heads rammed that far up their arses look stupid.

    Does that discredit me in any way? This man is a psychologist with all these qualifications. Hardly the appropriate language for such a person. Does he attack my medical hypothesis? NO. ALL he is doing is make himself look like an uneducated lout. ALL he is doing is discrediting himself and giving me perfect ammunition to lampoon him. What if I was to spread these comments around? He’d look precisely like what he is calling me. Wouldn’t do his reputation any good at all. But I wouldn’t be so mean.

  207. #208 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 17, 2012

    Narad,
    It has only just occurred to me that this bloke is actually throwing a massive temper tantrum because inadvertently, WITHOUT REALIZING IT, without ANY malice aforethought I’ve been doing a hatchet job on him. So why not a few posters check him out and see what turns up. He could be a danger to himself and others with a temper like that.

  208. #209 paul hill
    July 17, 2012

    One would think that, of all people, a psychologist is someone who has learned great communication skills, to have rapport with people suffering various psychopathologiews, even EXTREME psychopathologies such as myself with my very virulent form of schizophrenia called MENS (Messianic Egomaniacal Narcissistic Syndrome). He would need exquisite sensitivity in not being antagonistic recognizing that a person of my extreme narcissism would be very easily provoked. Being a person of great compassion, as he must be, he would have take this into account, prepared even to take a barrage of insults, understanding that, given my paranoia I would be extremely suspicious of his motivation. I would not accept for one second his claim that he has my welfare at heart as I have heard that many times only to have been betrayed many times. He would recognize that a Messianic complex can be fueled by either criticism (they are just jealous) or adulation (I must be fantastic). This would be a sample of his sensitivity.

    “Chris: “Which is why I am now just ignoring Mr. Hill. He is not worth it.”
    David. “That doesn’t help with narcissists… they end up going around provoking responses just to get their supply of attention”.

    Pretty good so far, almost worthy of a Nobel. Now it get even better still.

    “Krebiozen: “I’m not pleading with you to vamoose. I’m pleading with you to go back to basics and check some of your facts before posting any more vast tracts of nonsense.”
    David.
    That’ll do no good. Paul HIll is one of those people you cannot expect to get to think: head too far up own arsehole to be bothered with knowing that other people could be (and in his case, are) correct in their knowledge where he isn’t.
    Arrogant shit-wit: “Why on earth would I want to start my own blog when I’m having so much fun drawing the fire of meat heads who know bugger all of anything.”
    Project much, arsehole?”

    Exquisite isn’t it. The compliment arsehole is bandied about extensively, including head up arsehole. Now I must take umbridge with this compliment because, by Davids definition, I have a monstorous ego. I must therefore have a huge head and, as I have an extremely tight anal sphincter, plus being morbidly obese, it would be quite some feat to insert my head into my rectum. To what end. Nobody would be able to hear my narcissistic rants. David could you provide me therapy as I reckon you should be nominated as Time Magazine’s Psychologist of the year.

  209. #210 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 17, 2012

    Krebiozen,
    Okay. Lets go back to the beginning where you claim that an average sized potato would produce a bigger blood glucose spike than a cuppa coffee with 6 heaped teaspoons of sugar in it. I don’t believe it but I would accept watertight evidence to the contrary. One reason I don’t agree with it is because when I did the second BG on myself I used a decent sized piece of toast with avocado on it and got a much smaller spike than 2 oz of glucose. Now obviously 2 oz is a lot more than 6 heaped teaspoons, and as glucose is a monosaccharide whereas sucrose is a disaccharide I’d expect a much bigger peak with the glucose. However you made the statement that the spud would produce a bigger peak than the coffee with 6 heaped teaspoons.
    Therefore would you be prepared to do two 5 hr GTT’s on yourself or a test subject, one with the cuppa and one with the spud. You would have to test every 15 minutes for the first 2 hours to satisfy me that you’d caught the spike. There is no way I could do these tests on myself as I’m snowed under just staying alive and don’t have a monitor. I assume that you are in a lab.

    This is your post back then.
    First Me.
    ‘Now in the interests of scientific objectivity I must assume that you have conducted PROPERLY DONE 5 hr GTT’s using a spud vs a cuppa coffee with x amounts of refined sucrose in it and are thus able to qualify your assertions with proof.

    You.
    I haven’t personally, but many people have and there is no question in my mind that the information above about the relative glycemic indices of potatoes and sucrose is accurate. I have measured the breakdown of potato starch to glucose over time by adding amylase in an alkaline environment and then measuring reducing sugar concentration with Benedict’s solution and compared it to the breakdown of sucrose to glucose and fructose by sucrase.

    Me..
    Can a lab experiment possibly duplicate what is taking place in the gastrointestinal tract. For a start there is the first stage of protein digestion, pepsin, in the stomach, followed by 3 stages in the duodenum, each at a different pH, trypsin, chymotrypsin, carboxypepsidase. Large peptides entering the duodenum from the stomach with progressively smaller ones in the duodenum then individual amino acids, all exerting at least some osmotic pressure.

    Fibre: pectin, cellulose, hemicellulose, lignin. Which are soluble?

    From the starch we end up with the disaccharide maltose, glucose:glucose. Now we come to the GIP axis. Maltase will not be released into the duodenum from the exocrine pancreas until x amounts of insulin has been synthesised, the amount depending on how much maltose is detected in the duodenum. Glucose molecules actively transported into microvilli cells lining duodenum, then into the bloodstream, (portal vein?). However the glucose molecules have to make PHYSICAL contact with these transport pumps, held away in the duodenum by the osmotic pressure of soluble fibre and peptide fragment as well as amino acids.

    To cuppa coffee with six heaped teaspoons of sucrose. All enzymes do is dramatically speed up chemical reactions that would take place anyway, even in cold water, over time. In boiling water, assuming that the hydrolysis of sucrose is an endothermic reaction, I’d expect it to be hydrolyzed to glucose: fructose fairly quickly. So two MONOSACCHARIDES enter the duodenum. Therefore GIP AXIS TOTALLY BYPASSED. And nothing or very little in the coffee to pull against absorption, so, much FASTER BABSORPTION than with the starch Glucose actively absorbed, fructose by passive diffusion, enters portal vein to liver. But isn’t fructose converted in the liver to glucose. Don’t remember a side entry, ie fructose-6-phosphatase, then UP to glucose (gluconeogenesis only.) Conflicting evidence.

    You.
    That was one of the practical examinations in my early biomedical sciences education. I have also carried out several studies monitoring people’s blood glucose at very short time intervals (as little as 10 minutes) over long periods of time, and have never seen any evidence of the post-prandial spikes in blood glucose you describe, except in diabetics. That’s why blood is taken at the intervals it is in GTTs, because we know from practical experiments that it is not necessary to take blood more frequently. MMMM.

    Me.
    Won’t satisfy me as it does NOT accord with my 5 hr GTT’s, testing every 15 minutes. BIG spikes. This might be where the major problem lies because major clinics that do 5 hr GTT’s only do one every hour. Why? Save money?

  210. #211 Agashem
    Past Athens on the 401 Eastbound
    July 17, 2012

    Paul, you may try some aswagandha supplements as this can help with the self-mastubatory behaviour you are exhibiting.
    (I personally doubt there are any herbs strong enought to counteract that massive an ego but hey, you never know)

  211. #212 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 17, 2012

    Thank you very much for the compliments. I welcome them but don’t really need them because my skull is beginning to crack open with my expanding brain. As to the self-masturbation I’m getting a bit long in the tooth now and as my brain expands my pecker shrinks. But with a good stick book I manage now and then.

  212. #213 Politicalguineapig
    July 18, 2012

    Paul Hill: Way to mansplain Germaine Greer. I happen to be a woman, thanks. I also have more than a passing interest in feminism, and Greer’s regarded as a crank. (I guess I type like a man, thus the rampant confusion.Also I’m not sure you know what ‘fondle’ means. I damn well would judge a guy who fondled a kid.
    You may not know this, but police officers are required to give a damn about child abuse and start the machinery of law. (Grown women are still on their own, but nothing new there.)
    There may seem to be more cases of child abuse now, but that’s only because people actually talk about it now.
    Not to say that some horrifying cases still don’t slip through the cracks, but..well. Women are always gonna fall for the lies of happily ever after, and men are always going to have sudden and awful personality changes.

    From one of Laing’s essays:

    A boy of three is held by his mother out of a sixthstorey window by his neck. His mother says: “See how much I love you.” The demonstration being that if she did not love him she would drop him. It was to show him that she loved him. Why else should she do it? That is what she said she was doing it for, and evidently to her no clearer proof of love could be vouchsafed. In that case, one has got to move into the psychology of that woman, and that is the psychology of normality. This is an example of extreme normality. The normal way parents get their children to love them is to terrorize them, to say to them in effect: “Because I am not dropping you, because I am not killing you, this shows that I love you, and therefore you should come for the assuagement of your terror to the person who is generating the terror that you are seeking to have assuaged.” The above mother is rather hyper-normal.

    So…you’re seriously defending a man that believed that society thought this was normal? I’ll admit that a lot of people in the ’50s didn’t believe that women, children and people of other races were human, but I fuckin’ guarantee you that most of them would have been absolutely horrified by that example.
    Laing’s branch of psychology was still under thrall to Freud, which partly explains why he is so epically wrong. Put garbage in, get garbage out.

  213. #214 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    July 18, 2012

    @Politicalguineapig – I am not about to let you make the perfectly good word “fondle” dirty. It means “to touch or stroke lovingly”. You can fondle someone’s arm; you can fondle an iPAD. You can fondle a baby and it can be perfectly OK.

    If you mean “touched a kid sexually and inappropriately” then say so.

  214. #215 Denice Walter
    July 18, 2012

    While I really didn’t want to open that can of words- Laing:
    he was trying to sell books more than help people. I think that he latched onto fashionable 1970s ideas about freedom and liberation, re-imagining people with schizophrenia as being ‘creative’ and ‘rebels’- somehow more in touch with the true reality or suchlike. There’s a lot wrong there. The parental messages/ double bind stuff ( *a la* Bateson) as being causative rather than a result of SMI is another big miss. Parents may have mental issues as well because these illnesses are hereditary: their actions don’t cause the illness- which is physiological- but may affect life skills attainment, level of functioning et al. Interesting how the ‘bad guy’ always seems to be the mother – when there is a nearly equal chance that either parent can have serious issues.

    Treatment of SMI needs to be guided by research rather than rhetoric: meds and non-medical apsects can be studied as well as side effects, lack of compliance, genetic issues and level of functioning / living in the community. E. Fuller Torrey discusses some of this.

  215. #216 Politicalguineapig
    July 18, 2012

    Mephistopheles: I always thought that fondling was the same as foreplay. Then again, I’m American so it might be a language difference.

  216. #217 Krebiozen
    July 18, 2012

    Paul Hill,
    Sorry, I’m not really interested in duplicating decades old biochemistry experiments because the results in the literature don’t fit with your fantasies. There is plenty of information available about how glycemic indices for various foods have been determined. Whether you like it or not the glycemic index of a baked potato is higher than that of sucrose and that of glucose is even higher. That’s why we use glucose (we used to use Lucozade), not sucrose, for GTTs. As one of the papers I linked to pointed out, ingesting 75 grams or more of glucose is not something that people normally do, so even if you did see spikes in blood glucose after glucose, .it doesn’t mean you will see the same after someone pigs out on sugary garbage.

  217. #218 Politicalguineapig
    July 18, 2012

    PH: I just noticed the thing about Hitler. Are you ever not wrong? Hitler was elected because a lot of ordinary Germans agreed with him, and they happened to be desperate. Ever heard of the Treaty of Versailles? The Great Depression? Don’t go spouting off about history when you know nothing of it, little man.

  218. #219 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 18, 2012

    Politicalguineapig,
    If I said something that you totally agreed with to yourself, you’d still have to put shit on it. I try to be friendly but you spit on me in return.

    Denice Walter,
    Same thing.
    “Parents may have mental issues as well because these illnesses are hereditary: their actions don’t cause the illness- which is physiological” ONCE AGAIN,THE PRECISE GENES PLEASE IF YOU DON’T MIND. So a kid can get bashed, thrown up against the wall, have cigarettes butted out on it’s arse, vilified, ridiculed, spat on etc. and grow up normal.

    I was violently abused by my father and my mother denied that it had ever happened till the day she died. Every attempt at reconciliation with them. by me was construed as an attempt to hurt them. My mother was a Catholic and because I had left the insanity of Christianity behind, now lampooning it instead, I HAD to be bad. Same with my old man. He accused me of having gone bankrupt DELIBERATELY to just to hurt him. It was painful enough being forced into bankruptcy without, not just having any help from ANYONE, but then copping that. Yet he went bankrupt. HIMSELF.

    When I lost both boats in horrific accidents, they didn’t even come near me, in hospital for a fortnight the first time. From memory they didn’t even write to me. My Baptist Minister brother told me that abalone diving was a selfish thing to do. At one time when I was A Christian I was talking about becoming a missionary in New Guinea. The reason, because, as a manic depressive that was the very worst thing that I could think of. Therefore it had to be God’s will for my life. Then when I backslid I was the word’s worst, a ‘Dog turned unto It’s own vomit’ He had taken me to the Billy Graham meetings where I entered the psychosis of God on top of what I already had. So backsliding was a slap in the face for him, eroded his own faith. When you backslide you are supposed to be leading people into HELL by your example, putting the salvation of Jesus to an open shame. That makes you a serial killer, hundreds, thousand’s maybe, of victims.

    After the boat accidents came the suicides of the deckies. Try to understand what it feels like to be accused of being a serial killer psychopath, with 6 victims and be denied an inquest to clear my name. No partner, no kids, one visitor, FIFTEEN years totally alone in the ‘wilderness’. Blind irrational prejudice and bigotry. INSANITY.

    You wonder why I support Laing. Because without him at the time I would be dead. I have gone very close to hanging myself on several occasions. I know what society is like. It is ROTTEN and the ridicule I have copped on the blog just confirms that. I came here to try to help people with serious illness as some motivation just to stay alive and forum after forum blog after blog the same, abuse, ridicule. This is the story of my life starting when my old man came back from the war deranged from all the blood and guts he’d experienced. I was five at the time. There has been a lot of insanity and alcoholism in my past relatives, a great wellstream to draw from.

    A few months ago I found out that my father had sexually abuse a girl relative of mine yet I didn’t find out till about 15 years after everyone else in the family did.

    You finally give the game away, trotting out Fuller Torey “Coping with Schizophrenia.”, spokesperson for MAMI, helps middle class abusing parents feel ok as schizophrenia is hereditary so it’s not their fault, not that they are admitting it abusing their children.. A Fascist. Hates his own schizophrenic sister, recommends that schizophrenic’s getting out of the bin should be followed by their parents to make sure they don’t buy street drugs, just the shot for someone who believes they are being followed. Have a special high security room in the house to put the kid into if he suddenly start going off, until the Police, National Guard, Army, aircraft carrier gets into position off shore. THAT IS PRECISELY THE SORT OF HOME THAT WILL MAKE THE KID GO OFF.

    He’s in a town on the Istra Peninsula scratching his head saying, ‘According to theory, the Istra Peninsula should have the lowest level of schizophrenia on Earth, instead it’s the second highest after Galway in Ireland.’ He can’t take the next logical step and say to himself, ‘Hey maybe the theory is wrong.’ HE IS AN AUTHORITARIAN MONSTER.

    As to the mother, you must have monstrous scales in front of your eyes. I go to inordinate lengths to to balance the equation but you still insist that Laing is blaming the mother. He is doing no such thing of the kind. Selective blindness all round. Believe what you INSIST on believing.

    Laing said that when he went to Psychiatrist conferences, there’d be discussion about a paper some psychiatrist was going to get published in a prestigious journal mentioning sexual abuse and cover up as a cause of schizophrenia, but trotting out genes as a possible cause as well. However, he’d come under subtle pressure from other delegates, tone down the stuff about the abuse, after all this is a PRESTIGIOUS journal. By the time the paper was published the stuff on abuse had been left out. As most of these shrinks would be blokes you’d have to question their motives for doing this.

    One extremely important case was the famous quintuplets from Dennmark, all diagnosed schizophrenic. Gotta be hereditary with FIVE of them. Now I don’t remember where Laing got the info from, court cases probably, but all five were horrifically abused by BOTH parents, who were psychotic Christian fundamentalists. The mother held two of them down whilst the father burned off their clitorises with SULPHURIC ACID. That’s just the worst aspect. I buy a standard text book on psychcophysiology and there is a picture of them, all dressed identically, probably in their fifties but not one mention of abuse. They have become the benchmark, the yardstick, proof positive of hereditary.

    THE ‘science’ of psychology/psychiatry is about insanity, including the insanity of those motivated to practice it. Therefore it is riddled with lies and cover up.

  219. #220 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 18, 2012

    Politicalguineapig,
    About Hitler Can’t you tell when someone is taking the piss out. Must be all that hatred you’ve got bottled up inside of you. Like ‘little man’. I happen to know all helluva lot of history, Germany, Versailles, ESPECIALLY the great Depression. Since July 1 1975, when New York city almost went bankrupt, I’ve been predicting a collapse in the world economy. My next date is August 2 when Obama is gonna have a punch up with the Republicans to try to raise the debt ceiling. Given the situation in Europe coming on top of this, it’ll be interesting to see what happens.

    TWO DEADLINES JULY 3rd and AUGUST 2nd.
    I wrote this in response to an interview on Saturday Extra between Geraldine Doogue and the ex head of the World Bank. I was horrified at his suggestion of a Marshall Plan as such talk just delays facing the truth as soon as possible as to the ONLY way out, a MASSIVE global redistribution of wealth DOWNWARD in order to reverse the absurd UPWARD redistribution from around 1973. This redistribution would achieve 3 main necessary objectives. Allow lower income people to pay off their debt, create purchasing power in their hands in order to stimulate demand for goods and services and remove the extremely dangerous political polarisation which must eventually spill over into violence and with it hyperinflation and economic collapse. This is the ONLY way to get growth whilst establishing equality and ALL that goes with it, low unemployment, low crime, low hospital admissions, low debt, high productivity etc. This is NOT a left wing perspective, as most people would like to be megarich with least amount of effort involved. Like Chomsky I am a non-violent anarchist.

    Marshall Plan? Where is the money gonna come from? The US? It’s bankrupt and needs a Marshall plan for itself. From the printing presses? It’s already coming from the printing presses and that is inflationary as well as creating more debt. Austerity means worse inequality which is the fundamental problem. Say’s law is immutable. MASSIVE redistribution is the ONLY thing that can possibly work. Time is running out. Research by ABC into possible bankrupt US city debenture interest payments default on July 1 is mandatory and VERY urgent. I can’t do it. In 1975 it was New York city that was going to declare bankruptcy and default on $2 billion debenture interest payments due July 1st. Years of feather bedding by city public servant awarding themselves higher and higher pensions, falling city tax revenue due to small businesses leaving the city in response to higher rates, even more leaving etc. drove up city debt to the point where it became a grave crisis.

    The State wouldn’t bail it out as it’s credit rating would have been downgraded, meaning higher interest rates. The Ford admin. refused also because it would have set a precedent for other US cities to follow cap in hand. Debt would have spiralled upward. Then as the deadline got closer the NYSE began to jump around and finally the Ford admin. caved in. Now look at the result today a world DROWNING in debt.

    As I understand it with quarterly taxes having been introduced since, debenture interest payments may fall due quarterly. New York is apparently flush but many other US cities are in financial ruin. If a number defaulted simultaneously July 1st, unable to borrow from banks due to credit being squeezed, combined with ZZZ credit rating of these cities, the plug might come out, air holes everywhere in NYSE, one BIG air hole. As July 1st is a Saturday and July 4th is a public holiday, Monday the 3rd is the most probable candidate.

    STOP PRESS 25/6/2012
    President Obama tried to turn the heat up on Republicans over the national debt ceiling in his White House press conference this morning. His message was clear: He has been willing to make the politically tough decisions needed to rein in the deficit. Republicans haven’t.
    Just as important, Obama raised the stakes by saying he would not sign any stop-gap measures to allow negotiations to continue beyond AUGUST 2. That leaves negotiators just three weeks to strike a deal and secure congressional approval. Those weeks are going to test not just the wills of Democratic and Republican leaders but also the patience of the financial markets. Debt rating agencies have warned of a possible downgrade of the U.S. credit rating, and the new chief of the International Monetary Fund says failure to raise the debt ceiling poses a threat to global financial stability.
    Obama was gracious to John Boehner, noting that the House Speaker faced difficult challenges within the House GOP caucus. That olive branch reflected Obama’s hope that Boehner might decide to re-engage in talks on a $4-trillion debt ceiling deal that would trade entitlement reform for tax hikes.  
    OVERVIEW OF WORLD ECONOMY FROM 1973
    This is brief overview of the events leading up to the current financial crisis. In 1973 the Yom Kippur war took place in which Soviet backed Egypt and Syria attacked Israel which very narrowly defeated both, in part due to US assistance in supplying weapons to Israel. In retaliation Arab OPEC states slapped an oil embargo on the US and the Netherlands, the result of which sent world oil prices soaring, thus beginning the end of the post WW2 boom. The outcome of this oil price hike was a massive redistribution of wealth from the non-oil producing world to the oil producers, primarily the Persian Gulf states. This huge surplus for the Gulf states went into European banks and became known as petrodollars or Eurodollars. The Gulf states went on a huge spending spree, snapping up prestigious investments like Harrods in London. Looking for somewhere to invest this money stimulated a drastic lowering of house mortgage borrower requirements in the US which resulted in the sub-prime bubble.

    Unfortunately one man’s meat is another’s poison and a surplus for the oil producers meant debt for the non-oil producers having to pay 500% more for their oil than before Yom Kippur. In 1975 the debt crisis, in part resulting from the oil price hike, begins, probably as a result of the New York bailout setting an example to the rest of the world that debt is acceptable and bailouts are now all the go. The gurus decided that the prudence shown in 1929 in raising interest rates straight after the Crash was dreadfully unsophisticated and actually created the Great Depression. Galbraith argued quite correctly that the Great depression was necessary to squeeze the speculative pus out of the system and establish a more equitable basis for recovery

    The Gulf states were very keen to lend their huge surplus of petrodollars and the non oil producers were very keen to borrow it and emulate the success of the Gulf states by just getting stuff out of the ground to make a big quid just as the Arabs have done. Thus from ’75 the ‘resources boom’ begins and soon fails primarily because speculative investment capital going primarily into resource development starved the very users of said resources, the manufacturing sector, whilst unleashing mergers, greenmailing, stagflation, accountancy distortions, a huge range of tax evasion schemes based on no or low capital gains tax. Almost all of this crap takes place in the resource and mining industries because they are more speculative by nature than manufacturing, eg blasting gold flecks into the wall of a gold mine with a shotgun or Psioden issued at 50 cents and rocketing to $198 then collapsing when speculators finally realised that if there was all that nickel in the ground it would glut the market and crash the world nickel price.

    By now the casino had replaced any post WW2 rationale. The Crash of ’87 is the obvious result of all of the speculation unleashed after 1975 and marks the beginning of the housing bubble for a number of reasons, one major reason in Australia being the Hawke govt introducing a capital gains tax in ‘87 which went nowhere near far enough and which exempted the first home. Before the Crash of ’87 analysts were warning of an impending ‘correction’ and advising little investors to get into unlisted property trusts. So, burned by the share market, a capital gains tax now on shares plus double dipping on dividends, drove investors from the share market into housing. However, the later elimination of double dipping, along with a lowering of the capital gains tax by Howard and boosted by the rise of compulsory superannuation reinvigorated the CAPITAL GAINS or speculative emphasis of Australian stock exchanges. I assume it has been much the same scenario for much of the rest of the world.
    Now we see the end result, 90% of which is caused by increasingly regressive taxation policies, primarily a lowering of capital gains taxation over time, thus promoting counterproductive speculation, whilst making up the shortfall in tax revenue by increasing taxation on the means of production, primarily on the little business. As the rich get richer the poor get poorer as a consequence of the rich getting richer and with ever greater concentration of wealth into fewer and fewer hands. Consumer spending drops as a consequence of falling income at the ever more relatively populous lower end of the income spectrum. So credit is liberalised to compensate and debt rises in all sectors of the global economy.

  220. #221 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 19, 2012

    A PLAN FOR REDISTRIBUTION.
    ‘What profiteth a man (and presumably a woman) if he gain the whole world and lose his soul’ Ok, lets assume that the ancients thought that when you were happy you had your soul and when you were depressed, you’d lost it and if you had a panic attack you were in Hell. When you were in a catatonic coma, like Lazarus, you were dead.

    Imagine you are one of the US megarich standing looking through the window from your mansion high up on a hill overlooking the financial district of New York. You can see the Occupy Wall St. mob trying to blockade the stock exchange. You shudder with the realisation that most of that mob would like to roast you alive. You’ve been having ever worsening panic attacks as the real gravity of your situation hits home. Sure you’ve got a high wall around the mansion topped with razor wire, security cameras all over the place, electronically operated reinforced gates etc. to ensure that no would be assassin can get in, but what about those on the INSIDE. The staff, the cook, maid, gardener, chauffeur and especially the bodygaurd.

    About a year ago when things were a lot calmer you forced them all to take a pay cut, told them if they wouldn’t cop it there were plenty of wetbacks who would. Although they seemed to try to hide it, they all seemed to resent it like hell, and were surly for days. Couldn’t possibly offer them an increase now as it would give the game away that you’re getting scared. Thing is, how many of them bring their guns to work. You were going to get a metal detector and force them to have it run over them by the security guard, but you know they wouldn’t cop it. Anyway how do you trust the security guard? How do you trust ANYONE, even the wife? 20 years your junior but very tasty, obviously only after your dough. But puts on a reasonable act.

    You’re trapped, TRAPPED. The security systems that keep intruders out prevent YOU sneaking out incognito and where do you go anyway? You can go out in the bullet proof Mercedes, but what about the bodygaurd. Mrs Ghandi got shot dead by her own bodygaurd. Bloody hell, no way out, completely trapped, difficultly breathing, another panic attack coming on. Can’t let the staff see it. Gotta get down into the cellar quick before you freeze.

    Once in there, lock the door. Whew, that’s better. Then the drone of the fan suddenly reminds you that anyone has access to the air inlet. Hell, it’s like solitary confinement in here. You think you hear laughter, coming from the staff, who else. Out there right across the nation millions of people loath and abominate you. Useless bloody vermin, cockroaches you called them when interviewed on NBC about philanthropy, helping the poor. Why should I, you said, lazy useless scum. If they’d just get off their asses and do a days work they’d be fine. Perverts and commies.. You could say stuff like that without worry as you had plenty of security the. Now you freak that the staff all thought you were talking about them, consciously and deliberately.

    You were so successful because you pulled your finger out, used nouse to invest wisely. Now you’re not so sure. Maybe you’ve created nothing, just redistributed wealth upward. Friedman told you personally about the trickle down effect and you believed him. It’s all his fault. You are now freezing stiff with terror. Thousands of volts of electricity are pouring through your body. Your heart is pounding like a jackhammer. Millions of people are advancing on the mansion screaming hatred. Axes, machetes, jugs of nitric acid, red hot pokers to inset into your anus. The staff are opening the gates to let them in. Oh Jesus, Jesus help me, PLEASE. Right now you’d give everything away just to come out of this eternal hell, EVERYTHING. Or if you could just keep enough to buy a modest house with a reasonable car, no debt and some REAL friends, that would be fine. But how? It’s to late.

    Then there is a bang on the door. It’s the nurse. ‘Are you okay in there Mr. Billions. Time for your medication and cook tells me your your lunch is ready’ Oh whew, every thing’s ok. The relief is monumental and floods right through his being. He gingerly opens the door. The Nurse is standing looking ashen face. ‘What is it he says’, alarmed once more. ‘There has been a massive fall on the stock exchanges’. Wall St has been shut down but Asian exchanges are in free fall.’ ‘Bloody Hell’ he says knowing that the city will erupt with violence. ‘There’s been looting of supermarkets in the Bronx and Harlem but the police have contained it for now’ she says. ‘Hell it’s already started’. Straight after a quick lunch he’ll ring his lawyers to work out a plan for redistribution. He’ll contact other megarich and urge them to do likewise. Then they can make announcements that night on TV networks in order to shore up the markets to stop the bottom falling out completely tomorrow. He’s got the ear of the President. Get the secretary to make contact as soon as possible.

    He begins to feel relieved, cathartic. Then an intense euphoria sweeps over him as he envisages his modest house in the suburbs. What has wealth done for him, insecurity, alienation and fear, that’s all. The mansion a huge white elephant with staff that either resent or hate him. Maybe his wife might start to actually love the new fair him. It suddenly hits him that he has been reborn in that cellar, gone down into Hell and now ascended in the Heaven of peace of mind. Then he suddenly understands what Jesus really meant when he said ‘Ye must be born again’. Tears cascade down his cheeks. At first the nurse looks puzzled and then begins to smile as if she understands and there is an empathy between them for the first time, friendship REAL friendship. ‘Don’t worry about the medication’ he says. ‘As a matter of fact you can put them in the incinerator.’ Then thinking for a few seconds says. ‘No I’ll do it. I’ll enjoy doing it……VERY much.

    There is more if anyone is interested.

  221. #222 Politicalguineapig
    July 19, 2012

    PH: So a kid can get bashed, thrown up against the wall, have cigarettes butted out on it’s arse, vilified, ridiculed, spat on etc. and grow up normal.

    No one said that. If the parents or family line carries schizophrenia, then the child will probably develop schizophrenia. If not, the child might develop post-traumatic stress disorder, which is something else entirely. The problem with psychologists in most of the 20th century (aside from Freud) is that they tended to resort to a few catch-all diagnoses rather than finding out what was actually wrong.

    PH: Since you’re operating in a different universe entirely, I can’t tell when you’re joking and when you’re serious. And I am not ‘putting shit on you’- I’m just playing around- mostly. Men who pretend to be feminists tend to get on my last nerve, especially when they end up revealing that like most men, they’ll always stick up for a fellow man over a woman, no matter what the man did. Regardless, I haven’t been nearly as harsh on you as I am on other commenters on other blogs.

  222. #223 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 19, 2012

    As it’s getting impossibly crowded on this page, which is getting impossibly long, I have moved house to the page which Mr Oracle has set of especially so that my disciples can bathe in my light or heap scorn upon me, both of which shall inflate me ego even more, if that is possible.

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/07/10/an-inflated-view-of-ones-importance/#comment-192242

  223. #224 Krebiozen
    July 19, 2012

    One extremely important case was the famous quintuplets from Dennmark, all diagnosed schizophrenic.

    Do you mean the Genain quadruplets, who are from America, not Denmark, and are quadruplets, not quintuplets, all four of them? As for “ONCE AGAIN,THE PRECISE GENES PLEASE IF YOU DON’T MIND. ” you might read this or numerous other articles that describe the genetic basis of schizophrenia.

  224. #225 Mrs Woo
    July 19, 2012

    @PC (PoliticalGuineaPig) – Paul Hill makes so many assertions with so much other stuff behind them that the required reading to determine how much of his assertions match today’s understand that I’ve given up, though I scan through them again here and there. So glad there are people here who know enough to address him directly. I’m baffled, though, as to why he has chosen to believe people confronting his misunderstanding of everything are his “disciples?”

    The man baffles me.

  225. #226 Krebiozen
    July 19, 2012

    I seem to be incapable of getting a link right first time without preview.

    I’m just as baffled as you Mrs. Woo. PH seems to be a gishgallop in human form.

    I’m always interested in the possibility that mainstream knowledge is wrong, but you need good evidence to get my attention. PH’s ramblings are vaguely plausible-sounding, but don’t stand up under close scrutiny. If there was evidence that people with glycogen storage disorders are more prone to epilepsy or schizophrenia, or evidence of lactic acidosis in epileptics, or of mental heath disorders being caused by dysfunction of glucose regulation or any of the other claims PH makes, I would be more inclined to look into it further. But there really isn’t, and the evidence that does exist about those disorders is not consistent with PH’s models. That suggests to me that PH’s models are worng, not that thousands of scientists are incompetent or dishonest.

  226. #227 Krebiozen
    July 19, 2012

    Aargh!! a link

  227. #228 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 19, 2012

    Sorry folks but I have to move page as I’m using a Sea Monkey browser and it’s becoming increasingly difficult to save the page without broken links and the scroll bar is getting almost too thin to use. I can’t use Internet Explorer browser as some damn Google upgrade thing keeps popping up and won’t go away and I don’t trust things that won’t go away.

  228. #229 Denice Walter
    July 19, 2012

    @ Paul Hill:

    I can’t do a dissertation for you- however, I do have a few comments:
    in the last year or so, gene 22 has been implicated in both autism and schizophrenia.

    I’m sorry about your being abused. It won’t cause schizophrenia in a person who doesn’t have the genetic-environmental ( pre- or peri-natal ) set-up ( see schizophrenia.com/ causation) BUT that is not to saying that you aren’t suffering and that it isn’t fair. Suffering is real and abuse does cause REAL psychological problems that can be lifelong and interfere with how well you function in the world. It’s a shame. Society now is more cognisant of abusive parents and attempts to help children more but that doesn’t help you.

    I doubt that you are schizophrenic: most of them do not achieve after adolescence because that’s when the more severe symptoms of the illness intensify. You were a captain of a boat: this tells me that you are able to function independently. Now, when catastrophes, such as those you describe, befall ANYONE, it takes a toll: a person who was never abused and who has no real symptoms will suffer. Someone with a history of abuse will suffer even MORE.

    I truly hope that there are better days ahead for you.

  229. #230 Politicalguineapig
    July 19, 2012

    Mrs. Woo: I’m baffled, though, as to why he has chosen to believe people confronting his misunderstanding of everything are his “disciples?”

    My best guess is that he thinks he can convert us. I wish him good luck. I can only keep up with half his comments, but I try. And like I said, I’ve been nice. Although I am kinda snickering at the idea that this comment thread is full: I guess he doesn’t realize some threads get to 600+ easily. LOL.

  230. #231 Denice Walter
    July 19, 2012

    @ politicalguineapig:

    I think that Paul is an interesting, entertaining person who is not schizophrenic- his language is close to normal prose and invites the listener into his world.. He wants conversation with intelligent people and a chance to tell his tale. He’s had difficulties and has suffered greatly. I spy a spark of writerishness in his material.

    I also think that he can have a better life NOT hidden away from society in a rain forest- altho’ it might involve some adjustments for him. Australia is not the Third World and there should be resources to help him to live in a better way.

  231. #232 Mrs Woo
    July 19, 2012

    @Denice – I think for now it is what he prefers, or he wouldn’t go back to it. Some people in this world prefer to live outside of the norm either because they feel it makes them look heroic or because they find something comforting and appealing in the self-sufficiency of it all. Kind of a “take that, civilized society!” attitude.

    The condescension in some of his posts makes me uncomfortable. His attitude that shows in that style of writing is why he also assumes we must be his “disciples” – if we weren’t willing to be addressed in such a manner we wouldn’t be his students?

  232. #233 Denice Walter
    July 19, 2012

    @ Mrs Woo:

    While I won’t speculate on why he might behave as such, I think that some of it is tongue-in-cheek, which speaks volumes in a positive manner: people who can do sarcasm and snark et al, are higher functioning. Similarly, self-deprecating comments.
    I think he wants conversation with smart people at a distance. And we is smart people if I do say so myself.

  233. #234 thenewme
    July 19, 2012

    @Denice Walter, I completely agree with your assessment that PH has suffered and is hurting. However, I personally can’t abide someone who uses their own tragedy as justification for hurting others. I too hope that he gets the help he needs, but he’s showing zero effort in that direction.

    To go out of his way to seek out a forum full of scared and desperate cancer patients (i.e. BCO) to peddle his dangerous, unproven, and potentially deadly advice to bypass their medical oncologists in lieu of self-treating with his black magic woo regimen is just unconscionable. It’s a sick and dangerous game he’s playing.

  234. #235 Denice Walter
    July 19, 2012

    @ thenewme:

    I didn’t realise he went there: I thought his efforts were limited to RI threads with Krebiozen et al. Different story.

  235. #236 thenewme
    July 19, 2012

    @Denice,
    Oh yeah. He went there, and anywhere else on the net he could think of to find a target audience of ill patients with cancer, diabetes, weight loss, et. all!

    Just do a search on BCO or Google for “Nodules” or “Noddy” or “Paul Hill ketone.”

    Here’s a sample of his advice for a real stage IV breast cancer patients on BCO:

    …If you went off refined sugar you might even put on some weight and be ready for the ketone diet but gently does it using Ketostix to monitor your urine. You could go in and out of ketosis just as an animal in the wild does. It has to work if there is next to zero glucose in your bloodstream because even moderately malignant cancer cells must die if they can’t get glucose.

    Yeah. There’s no excuse. If he stuck to RI, I might find him entertaining, but instead he’s just one sick F**K.

  236. #237 Calli Arcale
    July 19, 2012

    Y’know, if going in and out of ketosis like a wild animal prevents cancer, one has to wonder why looking for tumors on the entrails of animals was such a common means of divination in ancient times. Or why palentologists have found dinosaurs with bone cancer. (And Tyrannosaurs with gout — ah, gotta love that wild diet, eh?)

  237. #238 Politicalguineapig
    July 19, 2012

    DW: I’m kinda torn, so it’s hard to say. He reminds me of a cross between a schizophrenic I met at college (she’d wandered in, asking if she could meet with a priest so they could foil a CIA plot to make black people behave badly.) and my old-hippy sociology teacher who took quite a lot of hard drugs in her youth and consequently believed in conspiracy theories. Her greatest hit was the time she solemnly informed the class that the real reason a nearby highway bridge collapsed was because the college across the river was creating acoustic weapons with the backing of the US army. Otherwise she was a lot saner then Mr. Hill. Then again men are a lot more vulnerable to mental illness then women are. Testosterone is a highly volatile substance.

  238. #239 Denice Walter
    July 19, 2012

    I think his language/ writing is too good for a person with schizophrenia also that he had a career; although men who *really* have Schizophrenia may enjoy respite around age 40+ when there is less hormonal activity and women may get worse at that age because of their hormonal patterns** – in VERY general terms, that is. Aging people may have other psychological problems. While I don’t believe he has schizophrenia, I’m not saying that his mental health is most likely fine and dandy either. A person can have other syndromes, aggravated by trauma plus previous alcohol and drug abuse, compounding issues even more.

    I don’t diagnose any more than saying I might believe that there ARE issues or NOT; just an educated guess-( you need to see people over time/ test)- just like I might if I made a judgment based on what I read/ heard in RL.

    About giving bad medical advice and playing doctor, you don’t need to be SMI to do that- and it’s wrong no matter what. There seems to be a lot of it going around- as I have learned in my surveys of the world of woo. Leave your doctor, toss your meds- be it for cancer, HIV, SMI..

    ** interesting about aging and hormonal pattern/ role changes..

  239. #240 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 19, 2012

    When you mob are done with all of the psychoanalysis of your’s truly (behind my back) could you please move to this page as I cannot conduct science on a blog which has got 250 bloody comments on it. This the third time I have made this appeal. It has links back to this page for quick reference. I want to get right down to the nitty gritty of blood sugar regulation.

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/07/10/an-inflated-view-of-ones-importance/#comment-192242

  240. #241 Politicalguineapig
    July 19, 2012

    DW: I agree, but personally, if Mr. Hill wants to say he has schizophrenia, I’m not going to quarrel with it.
    There is just no excuse for predation though. My patience with woo got kind of worn through last year, when a friend of mine was going through absolute hell with her woo-loving parents. I’ll spare you the details, but I totally agreed with my other friend who was having a hard time not punching the first friend’s parents in the face. (All parties concerned are legally adults, though two live with parental units.) Thankfully, everyone lived, though now I have to convince one of them that she is not overweight and doesn’t need to diet. She has the metabolism of a hummingbird anyway.

  241. #242 Krebiozen
    July 20, 2012

    I’m not sure why I bother, but anyway…

    To cuppa coffee with six heaped teaspoons of sucrose. All enzymes do is dramatically speed up chemical reactions that would take place anyway, even in cold water, over time. In boiling water, assuming that the hydrolysis of sucrose is an endothermic reaction, I’d expect it to be hydrolyzed to glucose: fructose fairly quickly.

    This is just one example of something you “reckon” or “assume” that is incorrect. Instead of checking your facts you charge off into a wild fantasy based on something that is demonstrably untrue. You can boil sucrose for hours and it will remian sucrose, unless you add an acid to it. The half life of sucrose in aqueous solution at 25C is 440 years. It took me all of 30 seconds to find that information.

  242. #243 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 20, 2012

    Krebiozen’
    I don’t know how long it took me to find this information as I didn’t time it.

    When using the Benedict’s solution on the sucrose, Test tube 1 showed no change with sucrose still being read as negative for monosaccharides or disaccharides. This is the normal result because Benedict’s doesn’t react with all small sugars, including sucrose; however, in Tube 2 after being in the hot water bath for 2-3 minutes, the Benedict reagent reacted with the broken down sucrose to produce an orange solution that indicates it’s positive for monosaccharides. Hydrolysis proved effective in this case as we went from a negative reading to a positive reading after using hydrolysis to break down sucrose. The remaining sugar is either fructose or glucose.

    Acid. Isn’t that something that is in the stomach, HCL as I recall, with some H2SO4, a pH of around 2. No food in the girls stomach to neutralize the acid then I’d imagine that all of that sucrose would have been hydrolyzed to monosaccharides by the time they reach the duodenum. I’ve been checking your ‘facts’ and finding many serious anomalies old cock. Many!!! Next?

  243. #244 Krebiozen
    July 20, 2012

    You appear to have missed the part of the experiment where hydrochloric acid was added, and then the mixture was placed in a boiling water bath. Acid hydrolysis at high temperatures, as I wrote above.

  244. #245 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 20, 2012

    Doesn’t matter. My original comment was only a guess anyway. The main thing is that stomach HCl does the same thing so that monosaccharides end up in the duodenum which is what I wanted to find out. Monosacharrides must elicit a GIP axis effect because I just remembered that when rats are INJECTED glucose there is no insulin response. Must go through GI tract.

  245. #246 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 21, 2012

    Politicalguineapig
    ‘Psuedonyms ensure that no one can.. say, track down one’s physical location and injure or kill that someone’.

    Well I don’t use a pseudonym and I’m totally up front about everything, put myself under a global spotlight by emailing so much media, can have my medical, any criminal, etc. record scrutinized, security concerns and my address.

    Now I’ll go one step further and give you my email address so that anyone who is a bit timid to comment here can email me, or who knows Krebiozen and thinks that he is over the top can send me info on him so I can check him out online. He is the sort of person who just couldn’t help himself by telling acquaintances to watch this post whilst he demolishes this dickhead no nothing amateur ‘scientist’ not realizing that it is HE they think is the dickhead, whilst I, the underdog, is putting up a great performance. That way there will be a level playing field because I think a pseudonym is a coward’s castle from which to rubbish someone and claim qualifications which could be completely bogus.

    noddyblacksheep@hotmail.co.uk

    Now I’ll go one step further still and give you the web links to a doco. maker, and the doco. he made on me so you can watch a short or download the DVD called ‘Road to Apollo’.

    Won’t post links.

    Now I can get death threats.

  246. #247 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 21, 2012

    The links will not post. Isn’t it amazing. Just Google Nubar Ghazarian, Flying Fish Films, ‘The Road to Apollo’

  247. #248 Politicalguineapig
    July 21, 2012

    PH: That way there will be a level playing field because I think a pseudonym is a coward’s castle from which to rubbish someone and claim qualifications which could be completely bogus.

    Dude, most people use psuedonyms on the web. I guess you don’t have to worry about identity theft (who’d want yours?) or losing your job because of an internet post, but some of us do. Nyms are perfectly legit, and I have no doubt that most of the posters are actually qualified to talk about the subjects they studied or work in. Yes, I don’t have a way to check Kreb’s credentials, but the language xi uses shows that xi is qualified in their field. They also provide good explanations to laymen like you and me, which is a real test, since they have to break it down and keep the explanation clear and concise. An unqualified person has to dress up their explanations in all kinds of gobbledygook; the scientist has to keep it simple.
    I also try to avoid gendered language, unless the commenter uses an identifying tag- lilady and Mrs. Woo, for instance. Avoids embarrassment all around.

  248. #249 Mrs Woo
    July 21, 2012

    @PH – have to vote with the Politicalguineapig (PC!) here. I have been on the internet in various forums for more than 15 years now… wow, maybe more like 20. You learn really quickly that you’re better off not being well known – too many crazy people out there will actually try to track you down and threaten you, even if you’re doing nothing that is actually … “bad.”

    Usually I figure the people being “honest” about who they are are either pretending to be a real person or they’re naive and have never run into something that has yet to make them afraid to share everything about themselves with total strangers. The support group I run has a lot of women who share information and send each other cards and presents. Only a select few of that group have gotten me to trust them enough to let them have my real information, even though it seems like a great deal of these women have each others addresses, cell phone numbers, etc., etc. Just too easy to run into an unscrupulous person who will use that information the wrong way.

  249. #250 Denice Walter
    July 21, 2012

    @ politicalguineapig:

    Several people I know who blog/ comment- amongst them regulars here- who have been harassed in RL by those they criticise. A certain anti-vaxxer goes after two guys at work ,separately; another gets calls at home and work, bothering family members and employers; another gets SUED. There are other tales @ RI similar to Krebiozen’s.

    I use a semi-pseudo ‘nym ( two fo my four names) thus ‘Walter’ is more penultimate than pen-name. I thought about using my two surnames – guys’ names, i.e. Walter “Howard”** or “Howard” Walter, as a ‘nym but my feminism wouldn’t let me. If I had to do it over, I’d probably use my 4 real initials and say I’m female. I currently leave my location out.

    ** doesn’t “he” sound white bread?

  250. #251 Narad
    July 21, 2012

    Just Google Nubar Ghazarian, Flying Fish Films, ‘The Road to Apollo’

    And? How many takers have you had on “Placebo Park”? How long was their average tenure on-site? I mean, it’s all fine and well, assuming you know the ropes of park liviing and so forth, but “this is the story of a man … who is willing to test his idea’s [sic] by using his life as the ultimate experiment,” and the test of popping in here isn’t going so well.

  251. #252 Krebiozen
    July 21, 2012

    Now I’ll go one step further and give you my email address so that anyone who is a bit timid to comment here can email me, or who knows Krebiozen and thinks that he is over the top can send me info on him so I can check him out online. He is the sort of person who just couldn’t help himself by telling acquaintances to watch this post whilst he demolishes this dickhead no nothing amateur ‘scientist’ not realizing that it is HE they think is the dickhead, whilst I, the underdog, is putting up a great performance.

    How is pointing you to evidence that contradicts your wild speculations “over the top”? I haven’t told anyone to watch this post, and I have never described you as a dickhead. Does annyone here think that I’m the dickhead in this exchange? Apart from bothering to respond to PH at all that is. I will not be giving out my identity. The incident I mentioned before went further than threats, the guy actually turned up at a friend’s house waving a baseball bat around and I got a panicked phone call from him telling me this nutcase was on his way to my house and was threatening to burn it to the ground. He never turned up, but it was a frightening experience.

  252. #253 lilady
    July 21, 2012

    Why should I use my real name when I post here…or on any other science blog. I have shared some personal experiences with my developmentally disabled son and I want to remain anonymous. I also have a history of being stalked at home…several telephone calls that scared my young daughter, following testimonies at public hearings, for the siting of group homes. (NIMBY *sentiments* run high…including making threats to a young girl)

    I’m still being cyber-stalked on Dr. Whitaker’s blog by the Ugh Troll.

  253. #254 Denice Walter
    July 21, 2012

    @ Krebiozen:

    you are about as UN-dickhead as is humanly possible.
    -btw- about 2O years ago, while reading readers’ letters in *The Economist* I came across the expression *Lombard* by which the respondent was not referring to an inhabitant of Lombardy, Italia but was instead using an acronym for “lots of money but a real dickhead”. Thus I read the Economist and laughed. Who would have thought.

    @ lilady:

    Although I am a feminist I do believe that women should be especially careful: not because of anything about us but because of others’ attitudes labelling us ‘easy prey”, incapable of defending ourselves, weak and other unfounded notions. Those cases of harassment I described above were all men, -btw-

    I read what @ugust!ne wrote. Typical. Interesting that he doesn’t show here often these days. I wonder why?

  254. #255 sheepmilker
    July 21, 2012

    Denice, he’s over at erv a lot

  255. #256 Denice Walter
    July 21, 2012

    @ sheepmilker:

    I know, I’ve seen. Perhaps Abbie is getting a laugh over him.

  256. #257 lilady
    July 21, 2012

    @ Denice Walter: I am careful about preserving my anonymity. I don’t *know* why the Ugh Troll has not been posting here, of late. He is lurking here, however.

    Dr. Whitaker removed comments on his blog, that he considered off topic, so why doesn’t he remove the Ugh Trolls…which do not add anything to the discussion and are only cyber-stalking me?

  257. #258 Krebiozen
    July 21, 2012
  258. #259 lilady
    July 21, 2012

    Along with Krebiozen’s link to OINK, is this recently-coined PIGS acronym from Wall Street:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGS_%28economics%29

  259. #260 Narad
    July 21, 2012

    If I may refine my previous question to Paul: (1) Is Placebo Park meant to emulate Archway? (2) Have you seen Asylum?

  260. #261 THS
    Sunny mild weather here
    July 21, 2012

    Still exploring this enjoyable and informative site. The “integration” of pseudoscience with science sets my teeth on edge, too. Pseudoscience has the “advantage” of no constraints of reality and is impervious to the rigors of evidence and careful argument. And hey, wow, man, the thread here got a bit out of hand, maybe. (I was surprised & intrigued at some reasonable side-comments regarding psychedelics.) The recent comments regarding ‘nyms, location, and identification of the posters gives me pause. Harassment – eek! Orac, if a cool ‘nym ever comes from this email address (if ever I think of just the right one!), it’s not a puppet, it’s just me and it’ll be stable, consistent.

  261. #262 Mrs Woo
    July 21, 2012

    @THS – was attempting to argue with Mr Woo that the reason there are no “side effects” or bad outcomes in alternative medicine is not because they don’t exist, but rather because no one has ever specifically, scientifically studied various herbal preparations, etc., to determine efficacy, side effects, percentage who had side effects, etc.

    He, of course, assured me I was wrong and that natural cures are better because everything could be considered a food that was used as a natural cure and that the complete herb, etc., had special compounds in it that would prevent anyone from having any issues with them.

    Arsenic is natural, I believe…

    ~sigh~

  262. #263 paul hill
    apollo bay vic australia
    July 21, 2012

    Krebiozen,
    How would you like your research to be constantly called ‘nonsense’ as you have called mine when you obviously DON’T read it properly. I’ve done forty years theoretical research on my stuff. You give me a lecture on liver function as if I’m not aware of it. Of course you would expect a self taught individual in biology to be a crank. I’m afraid I do it myself. I have not once called myself an alternative CAM or whatever, no black bile or chi or chackas or any of that shit. So why the bloody hell does everybody make that assumption. I don’t class my self as ANYTHING, with the exception that I analyze the symptom, eg convulsions and ask myself what does it do. In that sense ONLY am I naturophatic. Not once have I mentioned a single herb, not that I’m against herbal medicine. My dissertations are long in that I have the disadvantage of not having formal training and thus cannot make simple pronouncements and be believed. So I have to go into a lot of detail. How would you like to be subject to a constant unremitting barrage of ridicule and abuse which is ALL one sided. Having said all of this I am sure that nobody will take any notice of this or read it through biased filters, look for something to ridicule.

  263. #264 Krebiozen
    July 21, 2012

    Mrs. Woo,
    I find those kinds of naturalistic ideas quite interesting. When you dig a little it becomes obvious that they derive from ideas about God putting everything on this earth for mankind’s benefit, the Great Chain of Being view of the universe. According to these ideas, not only do medicinal plants contain just the right combination of chemicals to cure any disease man might suffer from, but God obligingly makes the plant look like the organ it is intended to treat, the Doctrine of Signatures, so the leaf of lungwort looks a bit like a lung so lungwort is used for respiratory diseases. Also, but you find plants that treat the diseases you find in specific places, with willow growing in marshy areas where fevers are common, and willow bark,as we know, is an effective treatment for fevers. Dock leaves are a remedy for stinging nettle stings, and grow in the same place and so on. It’s pure medieval superstition, at its roots, but it lives on in the 21st century as herbalism, just as humors and bloodletting live on in acupuncture and TCM.

  264. #265 Denice Walter
    July 21, 2012

    @ Krebiozen:
    @ lilady:

    Those are terrific! Believe it for not, I have a minor talent for creating acronyms, anagrams and palindromes, usually ridiculous in nature. I’m sure one will slip out if I’m not careful.

  265. #266 herr doktor bimler
    July 22, 2012

    I’ve done forty years theoretical research
    “Theoretical research”? See under “oxymoron”.

  266. #267 herr doktor bimler
    July 22, 2012

    an acronym for “lots of money but a real dickhead”
    WOMBAT is the acronym I found most useful (waste of money, brains and time).

  267. #268 Mrs Woo
    July 22, 2012

    @Krebiozen – I swear I responded to this – it must have been one of the times when SB told me I was posting too quickly and asked me to slow down and then my grandson needed a wooden train track assembled or something. I have seen pieces of what were in the link you posted, but never all in one place like that before. Kind of neat to see it all work together. In the end, it’s another kind of superstition – people guessing how the world works with limited data.

    Mr Woo’s church has a teaching that includes suggesting herbs (and other things) for sick people. I sometimes think it is part of why so many of them end up following woo rather than medicine (or mixing medicine with woo).

    I was so frustrated today – one of the girls in the praise team I’m leading was telling a boy that I brought a can of ravioli for that her “doctor” told her she is allergic to carbohydrates (he is 18, living on his own and between 18 and living on his own I’m pretty sure he’s usually hungry and we stay after church to do music practice). She was actually told by a chiropractor that her depression was caused by this “allergy” (he has actually put that down on her paperwork as a diagnosis) and told her she will never be allowed to eat “carbohydrates” again.

    That is quite a sticky dilemma. She is not my child. I’m sure her parents are paying a lot of money to that chiropractor to diagnose and treat her depression with handfuls of supplements (five at every meal because her body is deficient of digestive enzymes at 16?) and supervision of the special prescribed “no carbohydrate” (didn’t want to assure her that vegetables, fruit, etc., still have carbohydrate in them) diet.

    So hard not to sit her down and explain to her how her body works and that a broad statement like “allergic to carbohydrate” would be incredibly rare and unlikely if at all possible in the first place.

    Told Mr Woo about it afterwards and he went off into a wooish “well, carbohydrate allergy is very common and if you have any disease you should immediately get rid of all wheat and refined sugar because all diseases are rooted in inflammation and everyone knows inflammation is caused by these things, and an allergy to carbohydrates is often a cause of many diseases….”

    Not going to get any help there, obviously. Worse, I don’t want to create waves in this case. I’m sure between teenage rebellion and general physical cravings she probably breaks the “no carbohydrate” rule either knowingly and sometimes unknowingly and is not in any real danger. Just so frustrated that someone who has no real knowledge of what they are doing is making a teenaged girl miserable.

  268. #269 Politicalguineapig
    July 23, 2012

    DW: Several people I know who blog/ comment- amongst them regulars here- who have been harassed in RL by those they criticise.

    I’ve heard a fair amount of horror stories on the feminist blogs I used to frequent. I’m trying to avoid political/feminism sites these days, they just make me stabby and depressed.Just a minor question: in those cases you mentioned, you said ‘they were all men?” Did you mean the victims were men, or that all the harrassers were men? Or both? Wouldn’t surprise me if the harrassers were all male- probably white too. Most white men these days are unemployed and get murderous and rapey.It kinda figures though: men only socialize with other men, and it poisons their ability to connect emotionally with anyone who’s not just like them.

    Kreb: You are not the dickhead here.

    PH: My dissertations are long in that I have the disadvantage of not having formal training and thus cannot make simple pronouncements and be believed. So I have to go into a lot of detail. How would you like to be subject to a constant unremitting barrage of ridicule and abuse which is ALL one sided.

    You’re coming here and pretending that stuff you pulled out of your ass is science. Then you confuse the issue by putting out wall’o texts in every single post. Of course you’re getting a lot of blowback. Just be grateful we’re being gentle; you should see lilady and DW deal with the resident trolls.

  269. #270 Krebiozen
    July 23, 2012

    Mrs. Woo,

    told her she will never be allowed to eat “carbohydrates” again

    Good grief. It’s amazing how these kinds of bizarre idea becomes solidified as unquestionable facts in woo world. Low carb ketogenic diets are undoubtedly useful in some circumstances, and celiac disease is a real thing, but there’s always someone who picks up on ideas like that up and charges off over the horizon with them, applying them in completely inappropriate ways. It reminds me of Robert O. Young who claims that having any sugars of any kind in your body is bad, and that your brain runs on electrons, not glucose. I’d love to see him try to explain that with a blood glucose of zero.

  270. #271 lilady
    July 23, 2012

    @politicalguineapig: I haven’t commented about PH for days now…hoping he will just go away.

    All the RI Regular ladies are well able to handle themselves, now that the Ugh Troll has disappeared. His typical behavior was to target any new female poster here…his specialty was to go into attack mode if a new female ever stated she had a disabled child. The troll had issues with women and he, for some reason thought I was his mommy and tried to work out his animus toward the hapless soul who gave birth to him.

    The ladies of RI have each others back, whenever a misogynist troll makes an appearance.

  271. #272 Denice Walter
    July 23, 2012

    @ politicalguineapig:

    All men! The guys harassed at work by an anti-vaxxer you have “met” here @ RI. You might have read the anti-vaxxer as well, seems he also bothers other people he disagrees with when they are speaking publicly ( men and a woman). Plus he doesn’t exactly relish my literary stylings.

    Two other commenters here describe their experiences above.

    The two bloggers were also men as were their harassers: one criticised a radio woo artist, debated him and wrote it up on a blog and then got sued by the woo and his legal henchman: the judge threw both suits out of court. The other was a blogger who fought HIV/AIDS denialism and received calls to his workplace and at home, including to a family member. It caused so much trouble at work he decided to give up his blog BUT he has returned with another anonymous one.

    -btw- thanks for your kind words. I aims to please.

  272. #273 Krebiozen
    July 23, 2012

    Testosterone poisoning has a lot to answer for.

  273. #274 Mrs Woo
    July 23, 2012

    @Krebiozen – I really like this kid. What upsets me most is she is being told this is a “lifelong” issue (she will never be allowed to eat carbohydrates again, and must take the handfuls of enzymes he sells to digest food properly) and I know it isn’t even real.

    This isn’t as “dangerous” as some of the woo that parents fall for (i.e., bogus cancer treatments, risks from not vaccinating), but a life of misery because someone who went to chiropractic school and learned about all of the ways to “upsell” and “grow” their business and income through “improving health” with supplements and woo diagnoses is still misery and could result, long-term in issues, depending on what the supplements actually are and how honestly the kid sticks to the diet. If I do anything to educate the kid then I’m encouraging her to be disrespectful and rebellious towards her parents, something that will not sit well with most of the church (and most of the church is fairly woo-enamored anyhow).

    I really am struggling with exactly how I should deal with this. My first instinct is to educate the older boy in our group – he is very smitten with the girl and knows her better than I. He also is a bit of a rebel when it comes to a lot of things, so hearing about how to rationally measure claims by people like chiropractors and naturopaths will actually interest him.

    Had to giggle at your other comment @9:56.

    @Mr Hill – your long dissertations are equally unbelievable – they do, however, help people understand what you’ve misunderstood or not known in biology to come up with your pronounced theory. Adding length doesn’t make a wrong theory anymore credible, it just lets people understand why you ended up with the wrong answer.

  274. #275 Krebiozen
    July 23, 2012

    Mrs. Woo,

    I really am struggling with exactly how I should deal with this.

    It sounds like a difficult situation, criticizing parents childrearing is dangerousa territory! Given what you describe I would not be at all surprised if the girl’s problems were psychological in nature. Depression is a common response to feeling helpless, or angry, and even what she eats is being dictated to her at a time when she should really be finding her wings of independence. You might do well to get the young man you mention to take a look at the glycemic load of some common foods and ask why a glass of coke is worse than a ripe banana when they have the same glycemic load, half that of my favorite, a baked potato. It might start him thinking a bit about what they are bing taught.

  275. #276 Composer99
    http://composer99.blogspot.ca
    July 23, 2012

    Mrs Woo:

    I second your notion of discussing the matter with the young man who fancies the young woman you are concerned about.

    If some toes are stepped on and feathers ruffled, you can at least console yourself with the knowledge that the young woman’s interests are being defended by someone, if not her parents or would-be “medical care provider”.

  276. #277 herr doktor bimler
    July 23, 2012

    Robert O. Young who claims that having any sugars of any kind in your body is bad, and that your brain runs on electrons, not glucose. I’d love to see him try to explain that with a blood glucose of zero.

    He is always free to test his theory via a large self-administered dose of insulin.

  277. #278 Politicalguineapig
    July 23, 2012

    DW: Thanks for clearing that up. I sorta remembered those cases, though only as a bystander. And you’re welcome.

    Kreb: Yeah. I keep trying to remember that not all men are dangerous, but it’s easier to constantly profile then it is to trust people.

  278. #279 Militant Agnostic
    July 23, 2012

    It reminds me of Robert O. Young who claims that having any sugars of any kind in your body is bad, and that your brain runs on electrons, not glucose.

    I thought he believed we had nuclear reactors like Godzilla. He believes our bodies can transmute elements.

  279. #280 Mrs Woo
    July 23, 2012

    I don’t know how much he trusts chiropractors, etc. He is a bit of a rebel, etc., and very intelligent. I’ve ‘adopted’ him (he’s younger than my oldest child) and really reminds me of me at his age. He might be easy to convince in the silliness of the diagnosis and what a responsible diet is for a teenaged girl.

  280. #281 THS
    mild sunnny day, sunset coming
    July 23, 2012

    Re transmuting elements: anybody remember that awful book, The Secret Life of Plants?

  281. #282 THS
    still a mild sunny day
    July 23, 2012

    @ Mrs. Woo: Natural plant products: we can start listing a lot of very very poisonous ones, as I’m sure you know. Wouldn’t know where to start – in alphabetical order with alpha amanitin, perhaps? We could go for pages, compete with manic posters for space.

  282. #283 Militant Agnostic
    July 24, 2012

    Krebozian

    why a glass of coke is worse than a ripe banana when they have the same glycemic load, half that of my favorite, a baked potato

    Perhaps, but 250ml of coke is not very much – that is the problem with a lot of these tables – the portion sizes or often much less than a normal serving or are not even given. I wonder if this comparison is only going to serve to scare her away from eating “real food” (fruits and vegetables of any kind). I suspect this may be the goal of such a draconian diet – to create a dependency on supplements by removing all other sources of vitamins, minerals and micro-nutrients. I think that such an absurd diet (no carbohydrates) could set a person up for serious eating disorders later on or result in bizarre and difficult to diagnose (not difficult for “practitioners” who just make stuff up however) micro-nutrient deficiencies.

    The more I think about this, the more I come to the conclusion that the best course of action is to apply a little rig floor “psychology” – grab her parents by the scruff of their necks and bang their heads together.

  283. #284 THS
    A cool calm evening
    July 24, 2012

    On a related topic – someone I know is considering raw fruits & vegetables diet to, um, improve cancer prognosis. I have some expertise related to this matter – Ph.D. program some years ago in an Oncology Dept. – still, I’m looking for specific analyses/take-downs of this particular approach. There are various fads around nutrition & cancer & this and i think one has to do with “starving” tumors. Any pointers, folks? -Thanks!

    (Did Steve Jobs do some quack cancer diet before he got real medical treatment?)

  284. #285 Narad
    July 24, 2012

    Re transmuting elements: anybody remember that awful book, The Secret Life of Plants?

    All the hip kids just got the album.

  285. #286 Krebiozen
    July 24, 2012

    Militant Agnostic,

    Perhaps, but 250ml of coke is not very much – that is the problem with a lot of these tables – the portion sizes or often much less than a normal serving or are not even given.

    That’s true, a standard can iof Coke is 330 ml I believe, and many people drink a lot more at a time. That table compares 250 ml of Coke to a 160 gram baked potato, and I bet most people would assume the Coke has the highest glycemic load. I’m not really trying to defend sucrose, as it is an easy way of consuming empty calories, it can rot your teeth and we are hard-wired to find eaing it pleasurable, a dangerous combination.

    I wonder if this comparison is only going to serve to scare her away from eating “real food” (fruits and vegetables of any kind).

    Robert O. Young claims that all fruit is bad, except for avocados, which I’m sure has nothing to do with him owning an avocado farm. I agree, putting a depressed teenage girl on a restrictive diet is a recipe for disaster.

  286. #287 herr doktor bimler
    July 24, 2012

    one has to do with “starving” tumors

    Cancer cells are well-known for waiting patiently in line for nutrients in the bloodstream if there is a shortage, and only absorbing what’s left after the body’s legitimate tissues have all taken what they require.

  287. #288 Krebiozen
    July 24, 2012

    THS,
    I find Dr. Moran’s website a good place to start in debunking alternative cancer treatment as many of the ones he addresses are basically about a raw food diet. Also check out ‘Alternative cancer cures: “unproven” or “disproven”?’ (PMID 15061600) and there is plenty of material on this blog and on sciencebasedmedicine about the clinical trial of Gonzalez’s cancer treatment which is about raw juices, enzyme supplements and coffee enemas, and proved to be 3 times worse than conventional therapy for pancreatic cancer.

    Humans have been eating cooked food for at least 250,000 years and we have undoubtedly adapted to it. Cooking makes the nutrients in food more easily accessible to our digestive system. A raw diet means spending your life either chewing or juicing and cleaning your juicer, neither of which seems very alluring to me, especially as there seems to be little evidence that it does any good. Even if I knew I was dying of cancer I would find more interesting ways to spend the last days of my life.

  288. #289 Krebiozen
    July 24, 2012

    Apologies for my usual incompetence at posting a link correctly first time. Dr. Moran’s website

  289. #290 Mrs Woo
    July 24, 2012

    @THS – it could be a lot of fun!

    Well, my mini-me isn’t exactly thrilled with chiropractors, so this could be helpful, depending on how it is approached. I just feel so frustrated. As a teenager a good cognitive behavioral therapist would be a wonderful asset – they could teach her how her emotions affect her thinking, what bad thinking is so she can recognize it, etc. (I often believe everyone should either read a book about it or be taught about it so they can recognize distorted thinking when they are thinking it). Instead her well-meaning parents, probably in part because of warnings about teenagers and anti-depressants, went looking for “alternative” at their mother’s favorite chiropractor.

    @Krebiozen – there was a patient with my illness advocating a raw foods juicing diet as a “cure” for this. She has abandoned it finally, about two years later. There are actually some anti-vegan/anti-raw foods juicing sites out there run by vegans who have ruined their health. They say that most raw foodies are cultists and follow it with a religious zeal, with any deviation from the diet equal to “sin” and those who are not following the lifestyle equal the “heathens” or similar status.

    It’s fascinating that “Essa” on the Protocel thread lived a lifestyle often marketed as being “anti-cancer” and developed cancer. You would think with that kind of reality setting in she would be a bit more skeptical of her woo instead of holding onto it all the more.

  290. #291 Krebiozen
    July 24, 2012

    Mrs. Woo,

    It’s fascinating that “Essa” on the Protocel thread lived a lifestyle often marketed as being “anti-cancer” and developed cancer.

    You would think that a lifestyle and diet that are supposed to cure cancer would at least be able to prevent it. It’s like Hulda Clarke (author of ‘The Cure For All Cancers’) dying of cancer. You would think it would make some people pause for thought.

    Has Mr. Woo bought into the Budwig cottage cheese and flaxseed oil stuff yet? I hope not as it’s revolting. I tried it for a while for reasons I don’t recall several years ago. Flaxseed oil is the same as linseed oil which I associate with window putty and cricket bats. It goes rancid if you look at it funny, and creeps out of a sealed bottle through the thread, filling your fridge with rancid green gunk.

  291. #292 Mrs Woo
    July 24, 2012

    Well, lucky for me Mr Woo does not have cancer, but he knows about the Budwig diet, Gerson therapy, and actually has a “Hulda Clark”-type zapper that he assures me kills viruses, bacteria, etc., as well as being able to cure cancer. ~shakes head~

    I looked at the thing (it requires one single nine-volt battery) and asked him how in the world such a small current could affect much of anything, at which point he attempted to assure me it was the fluctuating frequencies, etc. I think “The Cure for All Diseases” has been thrown in my direction at least once (along with a book or two by the illustrious DVM Joel Wallach) with the encouragement to “educate myself.”

    Right now I’m scanning bits of “Petrus Romanus: The Final Pope and the Antichrist Is Here” in my spare time – hubby wanted it because it was written by one of his favorite end times prophecy people. That is a heapin’ helping of conjecture, anti-Catholicism and general overactive and very creative imagination, but at least isn’t assuring me it can cure diabetes, cancer, Parkinson’s, MS, ALS, etc., etc., etc.

    Kind of fascinating watching people create “theories of everything” (not unlike PH).

  292. #293 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 24, 2012

    Well, my mini-me isn’t exactly thrilled with chiropractors, so this could be helpful, depending on how it is approached. I just feel so frustrated. As a teenager a good cognitive behavioral therapist would be a wonderful asset – they could teach her how her emotions affect her thinking, what bad thinking is so she can recognize it, etc.

    There is always the chance that a second-hand copy of “Feeling Good” by Dr. David Burns might fall into her possession. You know. Somehow.

  293. #294 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 24, 2012

    Most white men these days are unemployed and get murderous and rapey.It kinda figures though: men only socialize with other men, and it poisons their ability to connect emotionally with anyone who’s not just like them.

    I really, seriously hope that no one without serious mental illness actually thinks this describes reality.

  294. #295 Mrs Woo
    July 24, 2012

    Strangely, Antaeus, that was exactly what I’ve been considering! I think a lot of teenagers these days really need a copy of that. They end up getting so many “wants” met that they have no idea what “needs” are and struggle with serious issues regarding unmet expectations and how they feel about it…

  295. #296 Politicalguineapig
    July 24, 2012

    Anteaus: 1. I meant white guys under 30. Older men tend to be able to manage their hatred a bit more, unless they work in male-dominated areas like sports, construction or the Catholic Church. Then they start thinking everyone who’s not a full-grown male is basically just an object to be used or disposed of at will. And have you ever seen men willingly socializing with women? If they are, it’s only to attempt to get something out of the female friend.
    2. Well, considering how much male violence has been in the news lately- Aurora and River Falls being just two of many, many examples- I’m not keen on testing whether this is reality or not. Right now, it’s a fairly valid assumption.
    3. For the record, mild mental illness, and manageable social anxiety. Now could we avoid speculating on the state of my brain for the next 72 hours?

  296. #297 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 25, 2012

    Anteaus: 1. I meant white guys under 30. Older men tend to be able to manage their hatred a bit more, unless they work in male-dominated areas like sports, construction or the Catholic Church. Then they start thinking everyone who’s not a full-grown male is basically just an object to be used or disposed of at will. And have you ever seen men willingly socializing with women? If they are, it’s only to attempt to get something out of the female friend.

    I am flabbergasted. The bigotry you are displaying is horrible. I could tell you right away that you are wrong, that I am a male – white male, even – who willingly socializes with multiple female friends without any expectation of reward except enjoying their company. But obviously you think you have magical telepathic powers that make you an expert on what goes on in the mind of “white males”: how they’re all riddled with “hatred” and the only difference is whether they can “manage” it. Sure, you’re an expert. Just like the Westboro Baptist Church is an expert on the “gay agenda.”

    2. Well, considering how much male violence has been in the news lately- Aurora and River Falls being just two of many, many examples- I’m not keen on testing whether this is reality or not. Right now, it’s a fairly valid assumption.

    No, it’s not. It’s vicious bigotry which you’re trying to legitimize by taking advantage of the most recent tragedy. It’s bad enough when a jerk like Mike Adams or Gary Null tries to generalize from one person doing a horrible thing to a huge group such as “everyone taking psychiatric medication.” But you are actually acting worse, trying to generalize to half the planet. It is not “a fairly valid assumption” to tar people you’ve never met with such vicious, hate-filled stereotyping.

    3. For the record, mild mental illness, and manageable social anxiety. Now could we avoid speculating on the state of my brain for the next 72 hours?

    Do you even realize how grotesquely hypocritical it is for you suggest we “avoid speculating on the state of my brain” in the very same comment where you presume to look into the heads of people you’ve never met and deem them to have a psychopathic disregard for the lives of others just because they’re male and work in sports or in the Catholic Church??

  297. #298 thenewme
    July 25, 2012

    @Antaeus
    Wow. I’m flabbergasted too! I saw the first post and wondered if I had missed some sort of punch line or something, but now that I see the attempt at clarification, I’m left shaking my head!

    @PoliticalGuineaPig, I don’t even know what to say other than, as a woman myself, you’re so very wrong on so many levels.

  298. #299 Mrs Woo
    July 25, 2012

    @PoliticalGuineaPig – you’re asserting 50% of the human race is mostly only capable of violence, misogyny, etc. Do you believe that could in any possible way be accurate? You seem to be a very well-educated and intelligent person. Please understand I’ve had more than one bad experience myself, but not every experience has been that way.

    What about (I know this is just anecdote) the many boyfriends and/or male partners injured in the same shooting in Aurora putting girlfriends and/or siblings, etc., behind them/underneath them in hopes of sheltering them from the shooter’s bullets?

  299. #300 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    July 25, 2012

    Narcissist: “3. For the record, mild mental illness, and manageable social anxiety. Now could we avoid speculating on the state of my brain for the next 72 hours?”

    What f*cking brain?!

  300. #301 lilady
    July 25, 2012

    @politicalguineapig: We have *touched on* your distrust of male doctors before on this blog…but I never thought your *issues* with men (white or otherwise), was so deep-seated.

    I say this sincerely, as a woman who enjoys the company of men and women equally, you have insulted other posters here by your unfair stereotyping of men.

    You are in desperate need of professional help to resolve your many issues.

  301. #302 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    July 25, 2012

    oh – hang on … did i quote PGP thinking it was PH? (note the notion that it was a post by the narcissist).

    if so, i DO so profusely apologise …. i know there is a world of difference between PGP and PH.

    however, i think lilady is right.

  302. #303 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    July 25, 2012

    PGP: “Most white men these days are unemployed and get murderous and rapey.It kinda figures though: men only socialize with other men, and it poisons their ability to connect emotionally with anyone who’s not just like them.”

    Now I’m going to tear one off of you. A proverbial strip, that is.

    That statement is – and I can say this without a shadow of a doubt – complete and utter bullshite. I get the feeling that the mild mental ilness you claim is not so mild after all. And herein lies the different between you can the Narcissist: the shit messing up your thinking skills can be dealt with very effectively using cognitive behavioural therapy. we do not have anything useful at this point in time to deal with the narcissistic crap that lives in PH’s head.

  303. #304 David N. Andrews M. Ed., C. P. S. E.
    July 25, 2012

    comment in moderation, deals with PGP’s comment about ‘most white men’.

  304. #305 Militant Agnostic
    July 25, 2012

    PG lost me with this one

    Most white men these days are unemployed

    There must be some terrible discrimination against white men going on that I am blissfully unaware of. About the only places around here that most men over or under 30 are unemployed are Indian Reservations.

  305. #306 Krebiozen
    July 25, 2012

    PGP,
    You are, of course, right to assert that most monsters are men, but to conclude that most men are monsters is an overgeneralization. You have my sincere sympathy for whatever experiences you had in the past that led you to that conclusion.

  306. #307 Beamup
    July 25, 2012

    PGP doesn’t get any sympathy from me at all. Such ludicrously stupid bigotry is too far beyond the pale.

    Not quite as bad as my high school Government teacher, though. PGP at least isn’t actively advocating for all men to be killed (except for a few selected sperm donors, and them only long enough to work out how to reproduce without them).

  307. #308 Denice Walter
    July 25, 2012

    OK, people form stereotypes that usually have at least *a bit* of foundation in experience- seems that women have widely divergent views about men *in general* and vice versa. Can we explain these differences?

    We also know that girls’ path in life- success and self-confidence- can be greatly influenced by her early relationship with her father and other males in the family ( as well as later experiences in adolescence). We can’t change these early events in our lives.

    I happen to come from a family** whose men encouraged and supported me while they praised me to the skies. My father once told me-” You’re just like me!” and he was rather fond of himself. When I was quite young, I heard that a woman who lived nearby was worried that her next baby- soon to arrive- might be a girl because she already had two and her husband would be very angry ( I overheard adults discuss her dilemma). Later, I asked my father if he was disappointed that I wasn’t a boy and- without missing a beat, he replied that I was EXACTLY what he wanted.( You can’t buy press like that!) And if I were a boy I might be like George- my cousin who my father particularly disliked.

    Obviously, I have very different views about *men in general*: later experience tempered my views when I learned that all guys weren’t as terrific as my many male cousins. I mostly get along with men. They even like to play tennis with me. Shocking, isn’t it?

    So early experiences might be strengthened by later ones in school etc- a person who had been treated badly might see a trend that men are indeed miserable creatures. Selective attention can occur, even WITHOUT our intent ( re cognitive factors in stereotyping). If this general idea is not corrected and made more moderate by intervening events, attitudes may persist. Especially if men are avoided.

    Right now, in general, men may have more social power and confidence than women, so perhaps they might be more likely to exercise their true nastiness while women might be more cautious and timid. That’s slowly changing. Eventually all the horrible people will feel absolutely free to express their inner b#tch, although men might always have the edge in physical aggression. And I do believe that *some* men may resent women’s advances. We even see that here @ RI (trolls).

    **. nearly as white as is humanly possible alto’ many of the cousins married diversely.

  308. #309 thenewme
    July 25, 2012

    @Denice,
    My anecdotal experience is much different from yours. I grew up with fairly little male encouragement, support, or influence. I agree that life experiences color our outlook, but to take our personal experience and generalize as broadly and in such a hate-filled and misogynistic way as PGP has done, goes wayyyy beyond that.

  309. #310 Denice Walter
    July 25, 2012

    People DO over-generalise- cognitive factors involved may account for *some* prejudice- and this isn’t the end of the world. Attitudes can be changed.

    I knew a psychologist who treated one highly specific unrealistic belief: people who believe that flying in a plane will result in a crash and their death, despite evidence to the contrary: it is highly unlikely that a commercial flight will crash- cars are much more dangerous. He was very successful and made a great deal of money because business people, whose careers depended upon flying, consulted with him.

  310. #311 Krebiozen
    July 25, 2012

    Generalization is one of those abilities, like pattern recognition, that have made us clever apes so successful on this planet. Like pattern recognition, it makes us susceptible to error, like the correlation = causation and other logical fallacies that we are all prey to. We also seem to generalize more from negative experiences than positive ones – better safe than sorry seems to be our cognitive default mode.

  311. #312 Denice Walter
    July 25, 2012

    The important issue, in my view, is that when people have an extreme attitude there is *some* basis in reality: early experience compounded by later events- sometimes the *experience* might even indirect via tutelage ( e.g. a racist had no real experiences but is taught hate). Children don’t integrate positive and negative attributes well or weigh risk/ benefits : that’s a skill that usually develops in adolescence.

    Attitudes might be based a string of unfortunate instances. Our beliefs aren’t entirely our choice but are constructed through our social milieu including later avoidance. Unless a person is truly psychotic, I wouldn’t guess that their beliefs are created out of whole cloth- even those delusions would be based in physical and social reality but to a much more limited extent: e.g. a guy believing that the goverment is spying on him might be based on seeing a real person who hangs around outside his door for entirely different reasons.

  312. #313 Mrs Woo
    July 25, 2012

    I wonder what happens in 72 hours?

    It is unfortunate that Politicalguineapig (PC) struggles with this. All of us probably have places, either that we’re willing to admit to or not, where we, too, have irrational beliefs. In my own life I’ve had some really bad experiences here and there with men that have left me completely confused afterwards, because I couldn’t see anything in my behavior that invited the aggression I experienced. Still can’t.

    However, I blamed it on those individuals who behaved badly, not men as a whole. Maybe I am lucky to have known good men and PGP has not had that kind of luck. Further, PGP mentions hanging out on some feminist, etc., blogs. I’ve seen some Womens’ Studies in some colleges that are one step removed from advocating the elimination of all males except for a few kept in captivity for breeding purposes. They quietly imply a history of nothing but repression and violence towards women (and children, sometimes) from the dawn of civilization, insinuating that it is maleness that is the root of all evil in the world.

    I think those of us who are speaking with empathy for PGP have developed a sense of friendship with her, etc. She is “one of our own,” not a troll looking to stir up trouble. I will admit to being a little concerned about driving her away with condemnation. We’re individuals, and I would suspect all of us have our little “quirks” where our opinions don’t reflect reality perfectly. That’s another reason why we have blinding, etc., in clinical trials – so our own perceptions don’t color reality too much.

  313. #314 Rose
    July 25, 2012

    Well, once more this is anecdote but I have 2 white sons under thirty who are not unemployed. Neither are they murderous and rapey. I believe that last statement to be true but I am not sure what rapey is.

  314. #315 Mrs Woo
    Pulling sticky seed pods out of a lab/pyr mix's fur
    July 25, 2012

    @Krebiozen – very true. I regularly find myself making generalizations and stating them, then kicking myself because I know that almost any generalization is going to have exceptions that make it “untrue.” I also know, though, that it is a way our brain functions, period. We can’t exactly shut it off, but we should be willing to challenge them every time we find ourselves thinking them.

  315. #316 thenewme
    July 25, 2012

    @MrsWoo
    Re: “We’re individuals, and I would suspect all of us have our little “quirks” where our opinions don’t reflect reality perfectly.”

    I completely agree with that! I have to say, though, that PGP’s violently offensive and hate-filled accusations seems to me more than a mere quirk. It’s truly disturbing, and took me by complete surprise since I’ve appreciated so many of her posts and agreed with a lot of them. That level of extremism is truly concerning.

    @PoliticalGuineaPig – please do get some real help.

  316. #317 lilady
    July 25, 2012

    I can only reiterate what most of the posters have stated. PGP has been posting here for quite some time. I *believe* she was unaware of her lack of abilities, to understand how the Deranged Troll PH, was *baiting her* and how PH’s constant baiting berating tactics wore her down.

    It still does not change the fact, that PGP does need to explore those issues of distrust of men, with a trained counselor.

    I hope she is willing to take our advice…it is offered with the very best of intentions for her emotional state. I think it is best that we all end this conversation and allow PGP to think about her *issues*. I look forward to the time when she comes back to post here…perhaps under a different “nym.

  317. #318 Mrs Woo
    July 25, 2012

    Lilady is as wise as ever.

  318. #319 Denice Walter
    July 25, 2012

    To play devil’s advocate here, I venture that sometimes people who want to seek out help first try it out more anonymously via the internet or a phone helpline prior to taking the bigger step of seeking face-to-face situations with a counsellor or concerned friend to discuss issues. Occasionally, this might provide impetus to start re-thinking attitudes.

    Rome wasn’t built in a day.

  319. #320 herr doktor bimler
    July 25, 2012

    And have you ever seen men willingly socializing with women? If they are, it’s only to attempt to get something out of the female friend.

    I plead guilty, if the “something” I am trying to get includes “intelligent conversation”.

  320. #321 lilady
    July 25, 2012

    Doktor Bimler: The RI ladies *know* exactly why you hang out here :-)

  321. #322 ken
    July 27, 2012

    Off topic but…….Orac supports fluoridation -well FYI
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/24/idUS127920+24-Jul-2012+PRN20120724

  322. #323 Krebiozen
    July 27, 2012

    ken,
    Did you read the paper? It is available on line. We know that fluoride is a neurotoxin at high doses; but prevents cavities at low doses. The important question is whether the amount in fluoridated water is sufficient to cause developmental neurotoxicity. This systematic review and meta-analysis does not answer that question. Fluoridated water contains 0.7-1.2 mg/L fluoride and this study looked at areas where natural drinking water fluoride concentrations are up to 11.5 mg/L. You did know that in many places drinking water naturally contains much higher concentrations of fluoride than there is in fluoridated water, didn’t you?

  323. #324 Antaeus Feldspar
    July 27, 2012

    Wow, a press release from the NYS Council Opposed to Fluoridation has bad things to say about fluoridation! Who’da thunk it?? Gee, maybe next they’ll issue a press release based on the MSDS of fluoride!

    You’re right, Ken. It is off-topic. Also you forgot to mention stupid. Are you going to expect us to believe that you have never once in the whole of your life been introduced to the concept which demolishes this press release, namely “the dose makes the poison”? Ah, so you have encountered it before? Good, then add “dishonest” to “off-topic and stupid”.

The site is currently under maintenance and will be back shortly. New comments have been disabled during this time, please check back soon.