Every so often, I think it’s worthwhile to try to use my powers (such as they are) for good. Actually, I like to think that I’m using my powers for good each and every day, but obviously there are some who disagree. In general, these people are cranks. We’re talking quacks, pseudoscientists, antivaccinationists, and various antiscience types. But I repeat myself. Right now, I see two things going on right now that could use some help from pro-science, pro-skepticism types.

First up, I found out a couple of days ago that Brian Deer will be in the U.S. next week. Specifically, he’ll be at the University of Wisconsin La Crosse, where he will be speaking as part of the Distinguished Lecture Series in Life Sciences. There, he’ll be giving two talks, one on Thursday, October 4, entitled An Elaborate Fraud: The MMR Vaccine & Autism, and a second one on Friday, October 5, entitled Stiletto Journalism: Busting the Vaccine Scare. I saw Brian speak three years ago, and he’s quite good. So if you’re interested in the antivaccine movement and can find a way to make it to La Crosse on a weekday (admittedly a problem for a lot of us, even people who, unlike me, live within a reasonable drive of the town), it would be well worth your while to check out one or both of Brian’s talks.

If that’s not enough motivation, there’s this. The Dark Lord of Antivaccine Pseudoscience himself, Andrew Wakefield, will apparently be there on Thursday to…well, it’s not clear what, other than to whine:

Some who’ve had the misfortune of meeting Deer describe him as reptilian and repulsive. Others would describe him in less flattering terms. Setting the sleaze factor aside, Deer’s legacy of slander and libel signify a far grimier, foul and filthy place than most of us would care to venture. Deer is the invention, the dark underbelly, the hideous caricature of those who deny an MMR-autism connection in order to protect themselves. He assuages the conscience of those without one, and scrubs clean the crime scene. Vicious and small, Deer’s pious position is untenable and in short order he will be hunted to ground and brought to justice.

Soon the full truth will be uncovered, revealing Deer for what he is. In January Dr. Wakefield filed a defamation lawsuit against Deer, the BMJ, and Fiona Godlee, its editor. Currently under review by the 3rd Circuit Court in Texas, the question before proceeding to trial is: Does Texas have jurisdiction? We are extremely confident the appeals court will rule in Dr. Wakefield’s favor within the next few months.

Quick to anger (as only the guilty are), Deer is easily flustered, delusional, and fancies himself a dandy in a Dickensian sort of sense. With the grace of a sloth and his own worst enemy, Deer is the wannabe bon vivant whose future claim to fame will be as a case history at Harvard Law School about how not to act in front of a jury. In court his testimony will doom the BMJ and himself, and open the floodgates of suppressed corruption.

PRESS CONFERENCE & PRESENTATION SCHEDULE

Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s Press Conference: 1 pm Thursday, October 4, University of Wisconsin-La Crosse. Exact location to be provided.

Brian Deer’s presentation schedule, location, and abstracts: click here.

Join us if you can – or for more information or to volunteer, please email info@drwakefieldjusticefund.org.

In a few weeks we will have a complete update and analysis on the lawsuit.

It might be nice if local skeptical groups (La Crosse Area Freethought Society and La Crosse Secular Student Society, here’s your chance) stepped up to the plate with a little skeptical activism. Looking at the map, I see that there are also other cities within striking distance (i.e., less than 150 miles away or so), such as Minneapolis, home to the Minnesota Skeptics, and Madison, home of, appropriately enough, Madison Skeptics. It also wouldn’t surprise me if Wakefield tried to make trouble by crashing one of Deer’s talks. Rumor has it that he’s currently involved in making an antivaccine movie, although I can’t find out anything about it, which makes me unsure of the rumors. I can totally see Wakefield using this opportunity for some “dramatic footage.”

Finally, there’s the issue of AB 2109, a bill in California that would require parents to visit a doctor or other health care provider for informed consent about the consequences of not vaccinating before they could obtain a philosophical exemption to school vaccine mandates. It’s something I’ve written about multiple times, in particular the apocalyptic language from, of all people, Rob Schneider, who has compared AB 2109 to Nazi-ism and labeled it a violation of the Nuremberg Code. In any case, the bill passed both chambers of the California legislature and has been sitting on Governor Jerry Brown’s desk. For some reason, Governor Brown has not yet signed the bill, and he’s under a lot of pressure to veto it. Antivaccinationists and Tea Party “health freedom” activists have teamed up to protest, and they’re planning a rally tomorrow:

Californians, if you want to make it at least as inconvenient to get a philosophical exemption as it is to get children vaccinated, if you want to decrease the number of nonmedical exemptions and thereby prevent the degradation of herd immunity that is occurring in your very own state, now’s the time to get active. Governor Brown needs to know that there is a lot of support for the bill and that there will be political consequences for vetoing it. That can only happen if you let him know. It would also be great to have some pro-vaccine demonstrators to counter what is likely to be a whole lot of antivaccine demonstrators in Sacramento tomorrow.

Comments

  1. #1 Denice Walter
    October 4, 2012

    @ lilady:

    I’m sure that 100K USD doesn’t go as far these days as it used to especially when there are two former doctors and three ( I believe) teenaged/ young adult children to provide for. The house is certainly an expense as well. I’m sure that there is an office and assistants- all of which eat up money.
    -btw- A & C wear expensive clothes as I have noted. The large car I saw wasn’t purchased with loose change either.

    @ Krebiozen:

    Right. Do you know anything about the training he had in Canada involving intestinal transplantation surgery? I don’t think he completed that. I can’t recall where I found that.

  2. #2 lilady
    October 4, 2012

    @ Denice Walter: I think Andy and Carmel have four children.

    That Autism Media Channel is a goldmine and his partner is Polly Tommey. You must remember Polly from the Autism Trust U.K. and Autism Trust USA:

    http://www.theautismtrustusa.org/

    Orac blogged about this organization and their fundraiser boat trip on Lake Travis (scroll down to see the pictures) 🙂

    http://www.theautismtrustusa.org/news/35-news/78-atusa-boat-tour-of-lake-travis.html?showall=1

  3. #3 DT35
    October 4, 2012

    So what happened in Lacrosse this afternoon? Did Andy and Jake lead the faithful on a march from the gun shelter to Centennial Hall to heckle Brian Deer? Inquiring minds want to know!

  4. #4 Narad
    October 4, 2012

    So what happened in Lacrosse this afternoon?

    It will be mildly interesting to see whether WXOW-19 follows this up at 10 pm. Actually, make that extra mild.

  5. #5 Antaeus Feldspar
    October 4, 2012

    “Dr. Wakefield, executive director of SAI, upon learning of these early results, said, “In a bid to justify their position, the BMJ claim now to have commissioned, and plan to publish, expert analyses rebutting these findings. But they miss the point. BMJ cannot accuse a professional of fraud and then claim that, ‘he just reported the findings he was given, but our new experts 13 years later say those findings were wrong.’ Whether the findings were wrong or not – a dispute between experts – it confirms there was no justification for their original allegations of fraud.”

    I’m having trouble even understanding his logic. The BMJ does not claim that Wakefield ‘just reported the findings he was given’; they claim, with a great deal of supporting evidence, that he misreported those findings in a way that cannot be simply passed off as “a dispute between experts.”

    But then again, this is Fakefield we’re talking about. I’m sure he doesn’t care how many people see him for what he is, as long as he still has that pathetic residue of people who believe every lie that falls from his lips.

  6. #6 Krebiozen
    October 4, 2012

    Denice,

    Do you know anything about the training he had in Canada involving intestinal transplantation surgery?

    Nope, not a lot. I seem to remember he was involved in a liver transplantation program somewhere, which surprised me. I’ll have a dig around my files tomorrow, right now I need to be unconscious.

  7. #7 Denice Walter
    October 4, 2012

    -btw-
    There is something on Wiki altho’ I think I read it somewhere else originally. U of Toronto, studies with animals, on rejection.
    UK: liver transplantation.

  8. […] week ago, I tried to exercise my blogging powers (such as they are) for some good by rallying my readers to appear at rallies organized by the antivaccine movement against California Bill AB 2109. Fortunately, ultimately […]

  9. #9 Julian Frost
    NOYDB
    October 5, 2012

    Ok, I know others have piled into Tara, but she repeats one lie that gets on my nerves.

    obtaining confidential medical records that patients’ doctors couldn’t even access

    For the umpteenth time: when Wakefield sued Deer for libel, Deer asked for (and received) the children’s medical records as part of the discovery phase. He did not steal or illegally access them.

  10. #10 lilady
    October 5, 2012

    I’d love to see how Brian Deer kept track of each of the 12 children. I suspect he used his own personal diagrams and charts…being that few (or none) of the children in his Wakefield’s study were referred to him and to the Royal Free Hospital through *traditional* channels (from the childrens’ own personnel pediatricians).

    JABS mommies brought their children to the attention of the lawyer Richard Barr and thence to Wakefield. Some of the JABS mommies referred other mommies and their autistic children to Barr and then they were sent to Wakefield. Those that were recruited live hundreds of miles away from the Royal Free hospital…yet they became part of the study.

    IIRC, a GP who was caring for one autistic child had cause to write several times to Barr and/or Wakefield to stop pestering some parents of autistic kids…who did not want their kids to participate in Wakefield’s *study*.

  11. #11 Darwy
    Røde grøde med fløde
    October 5, 2012

    But Julian, when do antivaxxers ever bother with factual information?

  12. #12 Judith Mercader
    October 5, 2012

    I really do hope you are eating GMO’s and can’t reproduce. And please, go buy some roundup and have it for breakfast over your veggies.

  13. #13 Broken Link
    October 5, 2012

    @DT35

    As I posted on the other thread:

    Some news and pics have appeared on Facebook regarding the Wakefield “news conference”. I looked at all the pictures Anne Dachel posted and the most people I can see in any one picture is 25 (or 26 counting Anne).

    The entire event appears to have taken place outdoors – it was a beautiful day. There are pictures of Wakefield setting up, of his books on display next the podium. Of someone introducing him, then of him speaking, and finally quite a few pics of the faithful having their pictures taken with Wakefield. A pitiful rump indeed. Even Jake couldn’t bother to attend.

  14. #14 Denice Walter
    October 5, 2012

    @ Broken Link:

    Olmsted perseverates on in support of AJW @ AoA.

  15. #15 Lawrence
    October 5, 2012

    @Judith – what a wonderful sentiment, I’m sure your family is proud of the way you turned out.

  16. #16 dingo199
    October 12, 2012

    There is a new thread over at the La Crosse Tribune.

    Anne Dachel bot and John Stone are gracing it’s commentary with their illuminating posts.
    http://lacrossetribune.com/news/opinion/michael-winfrey-former-doctor-was-not-invited-to-uw-l/article_77a7ee6a-13ea-11e2-9389-001a4bcf887a.html

  17. #17 lilady
    October 12, 2012

    @ dingo 199:

    Thanks for the heads up. I’ve posted several times at the Dachel bot and at John Stone.

    I’ll be offline for a bit and join you later later. 🙂

  18. #18 theoldman
    October 19, 2012

    There once was a mom from Fresno,
    who declared, “Nature is my manifesto!”
    Vaccines, her child she denied
    ’till it caught whooping cough and died.
    She must have been totally schizo !

  19. #19 theoldman
    October 19, 2012

    @Judith

    I really do like my honey-nut GMO’s !

    Oh, dem Golden Rice, so very nice !
    Saves childrens’ eyes not once but thrice !

  20. […] refutation of the “debate” claim. Remember a couple of weeks ago, when Brian Deer appeared at the University of Wisconsin in LaCrosse? In response, the man most responsible for ginning up the false fear that the MMR vaccine causes […]

  21. #21 Sanga
    India
    October 25, 2012

    Hi, this is from India – People are so becoming dumb these days, even after wikileaks, Alex Jones, Webster Tarpley, Adrian Salbuchi etc, have exposed many corruptions in the government, they are still putting their faith on the government and big pharma. If people only see those documentary movies in Youtube like, ‘Invisible Empire’, ‘End game’, ‘Fall of the Republic’, ‘Obama deception’, ‘Loose Change’, ‘Drugging our children’ etc

    After studying carefully about vaccinations, I came to the conclusion that the risk of any kind of vaccines is greater than getting the disease unvaccinated. Dr. Andrew Wakefield is not alone, there are many others who have exposed the vaccine industry. If you people only read the most comprehensive and convincing antivaccine book of all – ‘Horrors of vaccination exposed’, by Chas Higgins, I am sure you’ll see the truth. Type in Google, ‘Horrors of vaccination exposed’. It is a must read book. Besides, ‘The Poisoned Needle’, ‘Murder by injection’, ‘Evidence of Harm’, ‘Hidden dangers in polio vaccine’, ‘Saying no to vaccines’, ‘Blood Poisoners’, ‘A shot in the dark’, ‘What the pharmaceutical industries don’t want you to know about vaccines’, ‘Against compulsory vaccination’, ‘Vaccine nation’, ‘Raising a vaccine free child’. — If youread these books, you can see there is a big deception in the vaccine industry. Also, search in Google:
    vaccination books (english), vactruth, Dr. Rebecca Carley, Dr. Nancy Turner Banks, Dr. Rima Laibow etc.

  22. #22 lilady
    October 25, 2012

    Hey Sanga: I’ve studied vaccines as well. I worked as public health nurse/epidemiologist, investigating individual cases and outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases.

    I’ve had the *pleasure* of talking with Rebecca Carley, many times, before she became a practitioner of naturopathy.

    Would you care to share with us what your science specialty is…I’m sure we would all be interested in your background.

  23. #23 Denice Walter
    October 25, 2012

    “The Drugging of Our Children” and “Vaccine Nation” are films by Gary Null; Dr Banks works from a Mexican border town and has the dubious distinction of making her name first amongst hiv/aids denialists before becoming a vocal anti-vaccinationist; Rima Laibow is part of the Natural Solutions Foundation’s brain trust along with the infamous Mr Stubblebine ( of “Men Who Stare at Goats” fame) and some lawyer, seeking work.

    I think that the other recommendations are self-explanatory. I’m frankly surprised that “Fear of the Invisible” has not made the list.

  24. #24 Chris
    October 25, 2012

    ‘The Poisoned Needle’…. so Sanga, if you are so educated which vaccine is administered intravenously as claimed by the author of that book?

  25. #25 Krebiozen
    October 25, 2012

    Sanga,

    People are so becoming dumb these days

    That’s true, and many of them display their dumbness by making moronic videos they put on YouTube and writing imbecilic books they self publish. Some of them have websites where they collect discarded medical gibberish, and claim it is the suppressed truth, whale.to for example. It may seem incredible that the material you mention is simply nonsense, but I’m afraid its true.

    For example, let’s take a look at, ‘Horrors of vaccination exposed’, which you describe as “the most comprehensive and convincing antivaccine book of all”. A little Googling reveals the book was written in 1920 by a man with no medical training or background at all. Charles M. Higgins (1854-1929) “was a prominent ink manufacturer and creator of Higgins American India Ink. He was the head of the Charles M. Higgins Company, manufacturers of the drawing ink he invented” (from the Brooklyn Historical Society). Do you really think this is a reliable source of information on vaccines in the 21st century? Even if any of the complaints about vaccines in the book were accurate, vaccines have immeasurably improved since then. A large part of the book is taken up by complaints that the smallpox vaccine was ineffective. Since smallpox has since been eradicated, mainly by vaccination, I think we can safely ignore Higgins’ rants.

  26. #26 Sanga
    October 26, 2012

    You don’t need to be a rocket scientist or super qualified person to figure out Vaccines are damaging our kids, just a simple reasoning and common sense would do. A perfectly healthy child takes a shot and within hours is seriously ill. This is the story that most parents of vaccine damaged kids have to tell. It is true that myriads of junk information are on the net, but some are real life documentaries as is this one..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m_1X_iLVGA
    ….please watch this even if you are somewhat reluctant to this kind of material.

    I have seen first hand in my locality that unvaccinated kids are healthy because many of the diseases that were used to be a serious threat in the past are not a threat anymore because of improved living conditions and sanitation. (Of course, the vaccine industries still see it as a serious threat )

    Also, you don’t need to be highly educated to know that drinking unclean water can make you sick because there are germs. It is highly reasonable to doubt that animal cells in vaccines could be harmful in humans along with the chemicals like aluminum, formaldehyde, MSG etc because these are known toxic chemicals.
    http://www.naturalnews.com/035431_vaccine_ingredients_side_effects_MSG.html

    Regarding ‘smallpox has been eradicated by vaccination’, you can read this…
    http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2010/11/03/small-pox-big-lie/

  27. #27 Sanga
    October 26, 2012

    Ok, I saw a mistake in my previous post, should be……It is highly reasonable to suspect that animal cells in vaccines could be harmful in humans……

    Check out this one, which is posted in the comments….
    http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/about/

    Dr Abigail Abbott
    Posted October 11, 2010 at 11:43 PM

    I am an Osteopath in South Australia. I have been actively researching the Vaccination debate for many years. I have made many observations in my practice, including neurological/liver/bowel reactions to Vaccinations. I have a solid group of unvaccinated babies/kids in my practice, so comparison is relatively easy.

    I had a new patient today, a 10 month old baby- the mother was totally pro vaccine, had no issues with it. I asked if she noticed any reactions, she announced – “She had the Rotavirus vaccine, the next day her poo was green and slimy, the day after she was bleeding from the anus”……it amazed me that parents are so indoctrinated to be pro vaccine they ignore massive red flags like this.

    My question is where do I go from here? How can I support your organization or contribute articles etc?

    Thanks for your time

    Dr Abigail Abbott, BSc(OstSc) BSc(Clin Sc)MAOA

  28. #28 Antaeus Feldspar
    October 26, 2012

    Wow, Sanga, really convincing!! Except it’s not. “Goodwife Proctor gave me a nasty look in the village square at noontime and by mid-afternoon my horse had thrown a shoe!! How can people be so indoctrinated that they ignore the clear signs of witchcraft??”

    If the “evidence” you have for us is that one osteopath with a clear case of confirmation bias holds anti-vaccine views, it’s no wonder you don’t convince anybody.

  29. #29 Julian Frost
    NOYDB
    October 26, 2012

    @Sanga:

    It is highly reasonable to suspect that animal cells in vaccines could be harmful in humans

    Except the vaccines are processed and any animal cells in vaccines are likely to be biologically inert, so it’s actually pretty stupid to suspect that.

    After studying carefully about vaccinations, I came to the conclusion that the risk of any kind of vaccines is greater than getting the disease unvaccinated.

    Oh sure, if you think looking $h!t up on Google for a few hours constitutes “studying carefully about vaccines”. Also, you’re wrong. Vaccines, like any other medical product, are tested and monitored thoroughly. We know that negative events from vaccines are vanishingly rare while the diseases they guard against can kill.
    You aren’t the first anti-vaxxer to come here and make a series of easily debunked claims only to be told you’re spouting guff and I doubt you’ll be the last.

  30. #30 JGC
    October 26, 2012

    A perfectly healthy child takes a shot and within hours is seriously ill.

    And if even a statistically signifcant minority of all perfectly healthy children who are vaccinated become seriously ill within hours of being immunized you’d have the beginnings of an argument.

    As serious adverse events following immunization is known to be all but vanishingly rare however, you don’t.

  31. #31 Krebiozen
    October 26, 2012

    Sanga,
    You are being deceived by deranged people (like Clifford Miller who runs the Child Health Safety website) who spread easily disproven lies. We have large clinical trials and active surveillance programs following millions of people to ensure that vaccines are safe, and that vaccinated people do not suffer from illnesses more than the unvaccinated.

  32. #32 Denice Walter
    October 26, 2012

    @ Krebiozen:

    Here’s something which I have heard hinted about previously by woo-meisters:
    today @ AoA, Anonymous writes that flu vaccines cause illness and death at nursing homes.

  33. #33 Krebiozen
    October 26, 2012

    Strange – the first part of the link to the Rapid Cycle Analysis works. I so often see claims that VAERS is the only system in place for monitoring vaccine safety that I think the RCA needs to be more widely publicized:

    RCA data come from participating managed care organizations that include more than 8.8 million people annually, representing nearly 3% of the United States population.

  34. #34 Composer99
    http://composer99.blogspot.ca
    October 26, 2012

    I feel like this video is appropriate for some reason.

  35. #35 Chris
    Neither here nor there...
    October 26, 2012

    Sanga:

    You don’t need to be a rocket scientist or super qualified person to figure out Vaccines are damaging our kids, just a simple reasoning and common sense would do.

    Well, isn’t fortunate that I have a bachelor of science in aerospace engineering. I did work for a time on a missile program before switching to an airplane program. Ah, yes, that good ol’ common sense and reasoning tells me that youtube links are useless, writings from places that sell supplements and blathering from the insane lying duo of Miller and Stone at Childhealthsafety can be safely ignored.

    Sanga, your “education” in vaccines is like the guy who thinks Beowolf is a real history showing dinosaurs lived with humans in Europe.

  36. #36 Sanga
    October 26, 2012

    ….We know that negative events from vaccines are vanishingly rare…..
    …..a statistically signifcant minority of all perfectly healthy children who are vaccinated become seriously ill ….

    Pro-vaxxers are known to obdurately ignore the chemicals in the vaccines are harmful (like the SV40 in Polio vaccine, Mercury, Formaldehyde etc) and they stubbornly refuse to listen to the woos and cries of the parents of vaccine damaged kids. If vaccine promoters, health workers, statisticians would only open their hearts a little bit to their cries, those so called minority will become much more noticeable since many vaccine damaged parents (in third world countries often poor and afraid to question higher authorities) don’t complain or report to those who hold an unshakable faith that ‘Vaccines are safe’, and so they are off the records.

    Look at these parents who are sure that their kids are harmed by the vaccines in an Autism Conference, they are too significant to ignore.

  37. #37 brian
    October 26, 2012

    “woos and cries”

    Excellent.

  38. #38 Narad
    October 26, 2012

    Look at these parents who are sure that their kids are harmed by the vaccines in an Autism Conference, they are too significant to ignore.

    There is a difference between being ignored and being informed that that your fervent belief has already been examined and found to be wholly wanting. This isn’t the question whether “Veronica Mars” should be saved from cancellation.

  39. #39 Todd W.
    http://harpocratesspeaks.com
    October 26, 2012

    @Sanga

    Here’s a little info about formaldehyde that you might be interested in. You could also read more here, or over at Just the Vax. All three have plenty of links to actual science, rather than conspiracy-mongering supplement pushers.

  40. #40 JGC
    October 26, 2012

    Pro-vaxxers are known to obdurately ignore the chemicals in the vaccines are harmful (like the SV40 in Polio vaccine, Mercury, Formaldehyde etc) and they stubbornly refuse to listen to the woos and cries of the parents of vaccine damaged kids.

    No, Sanga, they don’t: No one is arguing that mercury of itself is non-toxic at all levels of exposure, or that formaldehyde of itself is non-toxic at all levels of exposure.
    Unlike you, however, they’re aware that the dose makes the poison, and the amount of mercury, formaldehyde, aluminum etc. a child is exposed to as the result of immunizations is far below a toxic dose. (For example, as Orac points out in The toxin gambit revisited, the greatest amount of formaldehyde a child could be exposed to as the result of immunization is 5 times less that the amount of formaldehyde normally present in that child’s bloodstream. )

    As for any faiure to listen to the “cries of the parents of vaccine damaged kids”, please provide credible evidence demonstrating their childrens’ ‘damage’ actually is a direct result of having been immunized. Then we can talk. (Hint: noting a temporal association–the supposed damage was detected subsequent to vaccination–isn’t sufficient.)

  41. #41 lilady
    October 26, 2012

    I just knew that “Sanga” was going to pull the *sanitation* gambit about decreasing incidence and prevalence of vaccine-preventable-diseases.

    “I have seen first hand in my locality that unvaccinated kids are healthy because many of the diseases that were used to be a serious threat in the past are not a threat anymore because of improved living conditions and sanitation. (Of course, the vaccine industries still see it as a serious threat )”

    So Sanga…

    -Which childhood vaccines protect against diseases that are spread via the fecal-oral route?

    -Which childhood vaccines protect against diseases that are spread via airborne/droplet or exposure to oral secretions routes?

    -Which childhood vaccines protect against diseases that are spread via exposure to infected blood and/or through sexual contact routes?

    By the way, your reference to Dr. Rebecca Carley has me *intrigued*. In the past I spoke to her, many times, on the telephone…before she became a naturopathy practitioner. I found that she was NOT a reliable source of science information. Do tell us what you find her advice to be correct.
    (Cue in…”vaccines are weapons of mass destruction”)

  42. #42 JGC
    October 26, 2012

    Look at these parents who are sure that their kids are harmed by the vaccines in an Autism Conference, they are too significant to ignore.

    Do you also believe that the individuals who caliming they’ve been abducted by extra-terrestrials to be taken aboard faster-than-light spacecraft and subjected to physical examination (with the de rigeur anal probing and implantation) are too significant to ignore, and therefore such abductions have actually taken place as claimed?

    Do you believe that the people claiming to communicate with the dead are too significant to ignore, and therefore spiritualism is a real phenomenon?

    Do you belevie the poepl claiming the earth is less than 6000 years old and that all living species we see today descend from pairs of ancestors who escaped a global catastrophic flood aboard a single large vessel and that therefore Genesis is a literal account of actual historic events?

    If not, exactly what is your criteria for determining when people claiming something is true becomes significant enough to argue it is true, and when it isn’t significant enough to do so?

  43. #43 AdamG
    October 26, 2012

    Since when is SV40 a chemical?

    Look at these parents who are sure that their kids are harmed by the vaccines in an Autism Conference, they are too significant to ignore.

    There are also people who are sure that the Earth is 6000 years old. There are others who are sure that waving your hands in a specific pattern can heal people. Some people are sure that the moon landing is a hoax.

    Are these people “too significant to ignore”? How many people does it take for you to believe something is true?

    Those of us who live in the real world prefer evidence-based conclusions rather than blindly accepting what people say they are sure about.

  44. #44 Chris
    In a medical building waiting room...
    October 26, 2012

    Sanga:

    Pro-vaxxers are known to obdurately ignore the chemicals in the vaccines are harmful (like the SV40 in Polio vaccine, Mercury, Formaldehyde etc) and they stubbornly refuse to listen to the woos and cries of the parents of vaccine damaged kids.

    SV40 was removed from vaccines fifty years ago. Thimerosal stopped being used in pediatric vaccines a over a decade ago. Your own body produces more formaldehyde than is any vaccine.

    Your “education” is very much out of date. Do something new and original, actually produce some data. Since I have a child who was harmed by a real disease (before the vaccine was available) it is up to you to tell us the relative risks of the vaccines to the diseases.

    Give us the title, journal and date of the PubMed indexed paper from someone who has not had their license to practice medicine revoked that shows the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles, and that the DTaP vaccine is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis.

  45. #45 Krebiozen
    October 26, 2012

    Sanga,
    I’m just curious, are you at all concerned about the heavy metals contained in Ayurvedic medicines? In this study the amount of mercury in some Ayurvedic medicines is 28,200 micrograms per gram, giving a daily dose of over 1,000 micrograms, which is often recommended for children. How do you think this compares to the amount of mercury there used to be in vaccines?

  46. #46 Todd W.
    http://harpocratesspeaks.com
    October 26, 2012

    @Chris

    SV40 was removed from vaccines fifty years ago.

    Not to mention that SV40 has been found even in people who have not received polio vaccine. Nor has anyone actually been able to find any causal connection between SV40 and cancers in humans (which is what the whole SV40 brouhaha is about) despite decades of study.

  47. #47 Brian Deer
    October 26, 2012

    Oh I see Sanga is citing “Child Health Safety”. This is operated by Clifford Miller, Andrew Wakefield’s lawyer. Miller is a filthy wretch of a man who offers false information and relentless defamation behind the screen of anonymity.

    However, I can prove that the site is published by him because his contacts betrayed to me his IP information. They were just disgusted by his conduct.

    Can you imagine someone claiming to speak for children’s health and safety who doesn’t even have the personal integrity to identify himself and make clear to anyone reading his information that it is generated by nothing more than an embittered buffoon?

    Of course, nobody of moderate intelligence would be fooled by his material, but of course not everyone is of moderate intelligence, and it’s these that Clifford Miller preys upon.

  48. #49 AdamG
    October 26, 2012

    Wow Sanga, Gish Gallop much?

    I do want to call it misinformation. Because it is. Have any evidence to the contrary?

  49. #50 Edith Prickly
    October 26, 2012

    @Sanga – it has already been explained to you that crank websites and propaganda videos on Youtube are not reliable sources of data. If you wish to be taken seriously you’re going to have to do better than that.

  50. #51 Narad
    October 26, 2012

    Call it spectacularly stupid misinformation if you want, but again let me share these links…..

    FTFY. Argument by YouTube with a garnish of Mike Adams and Jeff Rense cuts exactly zero ice.

  51. #52 Chris
    Neither here nor there...
    October 26, 2012

    Sanga, what part of “title, journal and date of PubMed indexed paper” do you not understand?

  52. #53 lilady
    October 26, 2012

    @ Sanga: How about answering the questions I posed to you above, about the *relationship* of improved sanitation and the decrease/elimination of diseases through vaccination?

    -Which childhood vaccines protect against diseases that are spread via the fecal-oral route?

    -Which childhood vaccines protect against diseases that are spread via airborne/droplet or exposure to oral secretions routes?

    -Which childhood vaccines protect against diseases that are spread via exposure to infected blood and/or through sexual contact routes?

    About Clifford Miller. He has in the past, teamed up with John D. Stone. Stone recently follows the carpet-bombing Dachel bot with utterly dumb posts on blogs. Stone NEVER responds to “lilady” when I post back at him.

    http://wellknowntrolls.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/clifford-g-miller/

  53. #54 lilady
    October 26, 2012

    @ Sanga:

    Why isn’t Rebecca Carley practicing as a medical doctor now?

  54. #55 JGC
    October 26, 2012

    Okay– it’s misinformation.

    Have you got any actual evidence?

    By the way, I noticed you haven’t answered the question of whether or not you believe that the people claiming the earth is less than 6000 years old and all living creatures descend from breeding pairs who survived a global catastrophic flood aboard a single large wooden vessel or people claiming to have been abducted by extraterrestrials for forced medical procedures aboard faster than light spacecraft are too significant to ignore. Are they?

  55. #56 Denice Walter
    October 26, 2012

    Over at the ‘toxin’ thread, Adam and Todd point out that Sanga gets the MSG idea from Adams.
    Here, BD shows the Miller influence.
    Mller hangs out with John Stone** says lilady.

    All of which illustrates that anti-vaccinationists- as well as the more generalised alt med prevarication squad- consists of a very small number of entrenched and compromised individuals who enable each other in their fevered attempts to mislead the public via their own dis-information highway.

    I should probably create a flow chart of all of the sickening interconnections betwixt and between these awful people.

    ** who -btw- was lovely to yours truly. I can’t understand why because I insulted him.

  56. #57 lilady
    October 26, 2012

    @ Sanga: You missed this YouTube interview with Dr. Rebecca Carley about “Obamacare”.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo-4WjVsCss

    She says she is a “Medical Doctor”. Is she?

    She says her son was “brain damaged by vaccinations”. Was he?

    Why don’t you contact her to find out how her son is doing (he’s about 18 years old now)?

  57. #58 Krebiozen
    October 26, 2012

    Sanga,
    Doesn’t it bother you that you are spreading lies? This isn’t a game, real people, or even worse their children, end up dead because some people believe this nonsense.

  58. #59 herr doktor bimler
    October 26, 2012

    This part of the thread is going to look weird if ‘Sanga’ turns out to be one of the usual trolls under a new nym, and is deleted for sockpuppetry.

  59. #60 Erwin Alber
    November 13, 2012

    I have arrived at the inevitable conclusion that vaccination is an organised criminal enterprise dressed up as disease promotion. As far as I am concerned, the entire vaccine industry needs to be shut down for good to keep us and our children safe.

  60. #61 lilady
    November 13, 2012

    “I have arrived at the inevitable conclusion that vaccination is an organised criminal enterprise dressed up as disease promotion. As far as I am concerned, the entire vaccine industry needs to be shut down for good to keep us and our children safe.”

    (Translation)

    I’m clueless about immunology, bacteriology, virology and the epidemiology of vaccine-preventable-diseases.

    I’ve been hitting the bottle again and I’m seeing pink elephants and vaccine conspiracies.

  61. #62 Alain
    November 13, 2012

    @ lilady,

    Best comment of the (short) day 😀

    Alain

  62. #63 Julian Frost
    NOYDB
    November 13, 2012

    @Erwin Alber: YAAAAAWWWWWNNNN.
    You’re like a CD player stuck on repeat, Erwin. Time to play a different tune.

  63. #64 Darwy
    Røde grøde med fløde
    November 13, 2012

    That’s ok, Erwin.

    We all arrived at the inevitable conclusion that you’re batcrap insane a long time ago. You continue to prove us right each time you post.

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