Antivaccinationists irritate me, for reasons that should be obvious to regular readers. The reason is that vaccine-preventable diseases can kill. Contrary to the beliefs of many nonvaccinating parents, who downplay these diseases as being not particularly dangerous, they are dangerous. Of these, one of more dangerous vaccine-preventable diseases is pertussis. That’s why a story that popped up in my Facebook feed disturbed me so. Unsurprisingly, it’s on that other wretched hive of scum and quackery (with respect to vaccines), Mothering.com:

So, my almost ten month old started coughing and after a while, we suspected that it was whooping cough. When his cough suddenly changed from normal to not normal, we took him to our ped (which is pro-vax but isn’t pushy about it.) and he gave him some antibiotics in hopes it would help the cough.

My boy handles it really well. He gets really red, but he breathes through it and immediately after he’s like I want to play!

My husband is having a really hard time with this. REALLY HARD. The only thing he asked for our boy to get was pertussis because it is so scary! I resisted, since I’m the one that did all the research and while I showed him he just deferred to me, even though I urged him to do his own research so exactly this issue wouldn’t happen. We aren’t a team in it together anymore. He’s like “we should have vaccinated him, I asked for just ONE shot out of all of them” and then I reiterated ‘the its a cocktail’ info and he’s like then why do ALL of these doctors, all these highly educated people, think that they are beneficial? Is there some great conspiracy by ALL doctors?


This is child abuse, pure and simple. Because the mother mistakenly believes that vaccines are harmful and that pertussis isn’t such a big deal, she didn’t vaccinate, and the result is that her son is suffering. Clearly in denial of the severity of pertussis, she tells herself that he’s “handling it really well,” but then describes how he “gets really red” and “breathes through it.” Those of you out there who have ever had a cough so severe that it’s hard to breathe know how terrifying it can be. I’ve experienced it myself for—thankfully—brief periods of time. It’s terrifying. If it’s terrifying to an adult to have a cough so bad that he can’t catch his breath, how much more terrifying is it to a ten month old child?

To get a further idea of the self-absorption of the mother and her utter cluelessness with respect to pertussis, check out this passage:

Anyways. So he’s upset and I’m devastated that my boy is sick but I’m just kind of like, this is biology. This is natural. He’s going to be sick and we will deal with it and get help from our doctors and maybe even our hospital if it comes to that. He’ll get better and his immune system will be stronger. I hate watching him cough and knowing there is nothing I can do but at the same time I can’t protect him from everything. He has to live in this world and deal with germs. I won’t put him in a bubble.

The naturalistic fallacy strikes again. I suppose that to this mother it would be completely natural if her son were to die of pertussis because she didn’t want to vaccinate. Or if he were to get a secondary pneumonia and end up in the hospital on antibiotics or even on a ventilator, that would be completely natural too, except for the ventilator and antibiotics. I have a message for this mother: Nature doesn’t care about you or your baby. What’s “natural” isn’t necessarily best. Before vaccines and modern medicine, huge numbers of babies never made it to adulthood because diseases like pertussis and other vaccine-preventable diseases killed them. Your child’s immune system might not even be “stronger” after this. Even “naturally” acquired immunity to pertussis due to the disease is not necessarily lifelong.

I feel for the husband, too. I really do. First of all, he sounds as though he is at least semi-reasonable about vaccines because, reading between the lines of this mother’s account, it sounds as though wanted his son to be vaccinated and, failing to convince his wife of that, to persuade her at least to let their son be vaccinated against pertussis. He sounds as though he was not antivaccine but that he didn’t really want to fight with his wife over vaccinations even though he clealry realized that certain vaccines, at least, are very important. His wife refused, and, not wanting to make waves, he foolishly went along, probably knowing that he was endangering his son. Now his son is suffering, and so is he. No wonder he’s having a hard time! He’s clearly regretting his decision. Worse, because he’s the stay-at-home dad, a musician who works nights and weekends while his wife appears to have a day job with more conventional hours, he has to watch his son cough up a lung every day while the mother is off working. He is seeing firsthand all day every day the consequences of his wife’s decision, and he’s the one who has to deal with it far more than she does. He should really tell her that he’s not doing it anymore, that it’s her fault that the child has pertussis, and that she needs to take some time off of work and take care of the child. The mother keeps harping about togetherness and how they should “work it out together”; yet she isn’t helping. She’s off at work, leaving him to deal with a sick child that is the direct result of her irresponsible behavior while whining on Mothering.com about how he is having a hard time with this. Hell, yes he is! He should have a hard time with this.

On the other hand, as much as I hate to concede this, one of the commenters has a point when she says:

While I feel for your husband (and I really do! ) you asked him to research things so you could make a decision together…and he didn’t. Being mad after he abdicated responsability isn’t overly appropriate.

Yes, the husband did abdicate responsibility by letting his antivaccine loon of a wife run the show with respect to vaccinating their son. Indeed, I rather suspect that he knows her viewpoint is pure quackery but ultimately capitulated because he didn’t want to get into what would no doubt be a horrible fight. Instead, he appears to have been engaging in damage control by at least trying to persuade his wife to compromise on the one vaccine he thought to be the most important. Not surprisingly, because she is an antivaccine loon, she wouldn’t even throw him that little bone. In this, the father rather reminds me of Dr. Oz, who, as you might recall, admitted that his wife, a reiki master who is antivaccine, runs the show with vaccines, the result of which was that they did not receive the flu vaccine. Of course, the person the husband is mad at is probably himself for doing exactly that. What he could do to make up for it is to stop being such a wimp and confront his wife, demanding that once the child recovers (and, hopefully, he will recover) he receive all his vaccines to bring him back on schedule. Otherwise, the same thing is disturbingly likely to happen again with any number of other childhood diseases.

Meanwhile, the commenters on Mothering.com seem to think that vitamin C can be used to treat pertussis. Commenter after commenter expounds upon the benefits of vitamin C for shortening the course of pertussis, even though there is no evidence to suggest that it can. Advice takes the form of brain dead suggestions like this:

Get some sodium ascorbate from the healthfood store and give it to him in some water and/or OJ, until he gets loose stools – then you have reached his bowel tolerance. This can and will cut the severity of the illness.

This commenter then claims that, because the DTaP is not 100% effective the child might have gotten pertussis anyway, a sentiment echoed later in the comment thread:

I hope you find something your little man likes, and I hope he feels better soon! You can show your husband examples of fully vaccinated kids contracting pertussis, and maybe that would help him during this stressful time.

The stupid, it burns. Seriously, this is arguably the single dumbest argument that antivaccinationists make. Let’s do a little reductio ad absurdum to demonstrate why. Using this “logic,” one could equally well argue that:

  • Because people wearing seatbelts and young children riding in car seats still sometimes die in car crashes, seatbelts and car seats don’t work. Even with a seatbelt or car seat, you or your child might die anyway if you get into a serious crash!
  • Because people riding bicycles sometimes suffer severe head injuries after a spill or crash even though they are wearing their helmets, bicycle helmets don’t work. Even with a helmet you might still suffer a serious head injury if a car hits you.

I’m sure you can think of more examples. The point is not that vaccines are perfect. It’s that they greatly decrease the risk of the diseases they are targeted against, not that they are perfect protection. It’s not a difficult concept to understand; yet antivaccinationists like this woman keep parroting the same brain dead argument like the ones above.

Ultimately, the moderator shut down the comment thread. Sadly, it was not because of the levels of antivaccine views, quackery, and pseudoscience being suggested to the mother. Instead, it was because people from outside the impenetrable cozy antivaccine bubble of Mothering.com were trying to bring some actual science into the thread. This is completely unsurprising, as Mothering.com makes it very explicit that they are not there to “debate” but rather to support whatever dangerous quackery any mother wants to use on her child, particularly if it involves not vaccinating. I’m only surprised it took the moderator so long to protect the Mothering.com denizens from anything resembling reason, science, or medicine.

Comments

  1. #1 Julian Frost
    February 9, 2014

    Greg:

    “what answer could someone give to your oft-repeated question, from which you would conclude that they actually DO NOT in any way, shape or form believe that vaccines cause autism”?
    They could answer ‘yes’ and shortly qualify their answer by stating they are either….
    1. Autistic (Here they are too naive to sort out vaccine zealots’ web of denialism deception.)
    2. Are irrational
    3. Haven’t examined the issue sufficiently to where they are confident in their response.
    4. In denial (But, if they are, I don’t expect them to admit this. I also suspect that many individuals who have autistics in their families are in this group.

    All you have done is show us how narrow-minded you are. You are convinced you are correct and that those who disagree are naive; irrational; ignorant, or; in denial. We have repeatedly asked you to bring your evidence and you have either ignored our requests or given “evidence” that we have been able to tear apart. I’ve learnt the hard way that insulting people (as you have done) is the worst possible way of converting them to your viewpoint, yet post after post, that’s exactly what you do.

  2. #2 lilady
    February 9, 2014

    The Troll @ 265…

    “(Lilady has an autistic son?? I must reflect on this.)”

    Thick as a plank and dumber than a sack of rocks.

  3. #3 Greg
    February 9, 2014

    @Bill Price

    A clerk taking your coffee order would be so thrilled with your business, Mr. Philosopher: ‘Sir, will that be milk or cream’?

    Bill, let’s try this again, and please try to keep it simple with a ‘yes’ or ‘no’. Do you believe it’s logical for someone to claim that they know the earth is round, but they don’t believe it?

  4. #4 Bill Price
    February 9, 2014

    Poo; another borkquote. My apologies again. I hope it’s obvious that the inner (nested) blockquote-formatted stuff is my response to Greggiepoo.
    @squirrelelite, Denice Walter, & whoever else:
    Thanks for the encouragement. I’m an ancient probable-Aspie with 4th-σ scores in whatever it is that IQ tests actually measure. I say ‘probable’ because nobody who observed my childhood is still alive, so I can’t be diagnosed, but I have memories and residual characteristics that indicate moderate Asperger’s.
    One of those characteristics that I’ve exhibited for 70 years is an extreme difficulty in initiating projects. Responding works for me, though, like my responses to Greg.
    TMI, I know, but that’s another one of the residuals.

  5. #5 lilady
    February 9, 2014

    @ Bill Price: Thank you for your comments about my son.

  6. #6 Greg
    February 9, 2014

    @Bill Price

    Thinking about it, Bill, you are a newcomer — at least to me – and I never really did officially ask you The Question. Anyway, Bill, it’s a real simple procedure. I ask the question, and you respond with a ‘yes’ or ‘no’. Here we go….

    Bill, do you believe vaccines play any causal role in the etiology of autism? (Thanks for assisting with the rephrasing of the question, Narad.).

    Again, Bill, for demonstration purpose, I would respond, ‘yes’. Now your turn…

  7. #7 Denice Walter
    February 9, 2014

    @ Bill Price:

    No, wait, you’re not supposed to exist, having been born several decades prior to the post-apocalyptic vaccine epidemic.

  8. #8 Bill Price
    February 9, 2014

    @Denice Walter — Well, I’ve been considered an odd duck my whole life. Mayhap the unpossibility of my existence is somehow related. 😉

  9. #9 notation
    February 9, 2014

    @Bill Price: No words are sufficient to express my admiration of your post#400. Bravo, sir, bravo!

  10. #10 Narad
    February 9, 2014

    Bill, let’s try this again, and please try to keep it simple with a ‘yes’ or ‘no’.

    Oh, do fυck off. You’ve been told twice today that, if anything, belief follows from knowledge. It’s irrelevant. They’re separate categories. You’re as pathetically clueless about epistemology as you are about everything else that you open your mouth about.

    Here, Gerg: I know how to tie my shoes. I do not “believe how to tie my shoes.” I do not need to entertain a mental state known as ‘belief’ in order to tie my shoes.

    You lose.

  11. #11 notation
    February 9, 2014

    Grog? Wake up, dude! Are you awake? Are you listening? Pay attention. YOU. ARE. A. MORON.

  12. #12 Old Rockin' Dave
    February 10, 2014

    @Gregger, 383:
    “They could answer ‘yes’ and shortly qualify their answer by stating they are either….
    1. Autistic (Here they are too naive to sort out vaccine zealots’ web of denialism deception.)”
    You never cease to amaze…and to offend. Yes, little Gregger, I must be naive because I am on the autism spectrum. My medical training, my experience in medical research, my years of life experience, they all count for nothing because the Great Brain Gregger has decided I am “naive”.
    You must lack all self-awareness if you can possibly be stumped as to why I think you are little short of a waste of carbon.
    Oh, and FYI, I was born before today’s vaccination schedule. I have had measles, rubella, mumps, chicken pox, and poliomyelitis. None of them was a happy romp in the garden. I have no doubt that you have never had any of those, for which you should thank whoever raised you for having you vaccinated appropriately. Too bad they failed in making you into a sentient being.

  13. #13 herr doktor bimler
    February 10, 2014

    Lilady @ 402: dumber than a sack of rocks.

    Do not confuse “sack of rocks” with “dirtbag”.

  14. #14 Greg
    February 10, 2014

    @notation

    “Grog? Wake up, dude! Are you awake? Are you listening? Pay attention. YOU. ARE. A. MORON.”

    Notation, isn’t truly a frightening prospect that your ‘house of denial’, which provides you with comfort (but perhaps only a false one), will someday come spectacularly crashing down, and leaving you cold, naked, and lonely? Isn’t all the more frightening that with every passing day the wind is starting to pick up? (Hee hee hee.)

  15. #15 Lawrence
    February 10, 2014

    Hmmm….the only real side-effect from the anti-vaccine movement we’ve seen is a resurgence of vaccine preventable diseases, which is leading to an increase in serious conditions like pneumonia & other complications (including the deaths of numerous infants).

    Glad to see you can pat yourself on the back there, idiot.

  16. #16 Renate
    February 10, 2014

    The only one here who is in denial is our troll Greg, who still thinks vaccines are linked to autism, although the ‘research’ ‘proving’ this connection is debunked so often, the evidence is non-existent.

  17. #17 Lawrence
    February 10, 2014

    @Renate – “but think of the Parents!!!! I mean, parents have never been wrong before, have they?”

    I say with all the sarcastic tone that I can….

  18. #18 Renate
    February 10, 2014

    Parents? Of course they can be wrong. Just like pet-owners can be wrong about their pet, which happened with my parents. Their female cat looked pregnant to me, when I was visiting them, but my parents didn’t notice she gained weight. And yes, she was pregnant. Her brother had been nurtured, but that seems to need some time, till it’s really effective, so he made her pregnant.

  19. #19 notation
    February 10, 2014

    @Groggy: Thanks for proving my assertion that YOU. ARE. A. MORON.

    Vaccines do not cause autism. Get a new hobby-horse, honey.

  20. #20 notation
    February 10, 2014

    Renate: “Her brother had been nurtured”.

    Hahahaha. So glad to hear that he was cared for.

  21. #21 JGC
    February 10, 2014

    It goes beyond ignoring evidence that’s been repetively debunked, renata–Greg has admitted in various threads that he doesn’t even have any evidence supporting the existence of a causal association between childnood immunization and autism specturm disorders to be>/i> debunked in the first place. He simply accepts parental claims of vaccine injury uncritically.

  22. #22 JGC
    Sighing at the HTML fail
    February 10, 2014

    Hate typing on a kindle

  23. #23 Helianthus
    February 10, 2014

    with every passing day the wind is starting to pick up

    The autism-vaccine boat looks becalmed to me.
    On the other hand, it’s often difficult to distinguish between Greg writing a post or passing winds.

  24. #24 Politicalguineapig
    February 10, 2014

    Renate: That happened to me when I got a male/female pair of guinea pigs by mistake. (All my cavies before that had been female/female.) Turns out it’s really hard to determine gender before they’re three months old and they’re also fertile from a very young age. I thought she was pregnant from the get-go, but everyone else refused to believe it.

  25. #25 sheepmilker
    February 10, 2014

    Just for you, Greg (NSFW)

    http://howdovaccinescauseautism.com/

  26. #26 JGC
    And once again, because it needs to be pointed out...
    February 10, 2014

    ..every time he makes an empty claim:

    During the child’s early brain development the blueprint was for the creation of a ‘normal brain’, that, with all its features, would allow the child to navigate his world successfully, and live successfully. For some, vaccines interfered with this blueprint and produced an aberrant brain.

    And the evidence demonstrating that routine childhood immunizations can interfere with the early development of a childs brain producing ASD’s would be what exactly, greg?

    Oh, that’s right…you don’t have any.

  27. #27 notation
    February 10, 2014

    @JGC, how in the world does this dirt-bag know-nothing account for all the autistics that existed long before vaccines came to be?

  28. #28 JGC
    He simply ignores all inconveniet evidence
    February 10, 2014

    Greg doesn’t feel the need to account for anything contrary to his preferred and predetermind conclusions, notation.

    Autistic individuals prior to routine immunization? Ignoe them. Multiple epidemiologic studies finding no evidence of a causal association? Ignore them. Videotape entered as evidence to the vaccine court to demonstrate a child did not have autistic behaviors prior to vaccination, which shows instead she’s exhibiting autistic behavior? Ignore it. Children who have never been vacinated yet develop ASD’s? Ignore them.

    And all requests he provide actual evidence supporting his claim that vaccines cause ASD’s? Really, really, really ignore those.

  29. #29 notation
    February 10, 2014

    How convenient.

    I haven’t read (thank the gods) all of Grog’s drivel, but from what I gather, he also doesn’t think (well, I mean he “doesn’t believe”, because everyone knows he doesn’t think about anything much at all) children with autism can be taught anything and doesn’t believe they will ever progress in their ability to function in the world. This is patently ridiculous; there are many people with autism who are indeed quite gifted and capable and manage to negotiate society’s highways. Many of them certainly are better at it than Grog will ever be.

  30. #30 notation
    February 10, 2014

    @423 Helianthus: Nice. It does explain his brain-farts, I guess. Someone in a rather tony neighborhood near here (where the pretentious name their houses) has a sign on the mailbox reading “Passing Winds.”

    Where does Dreg live? It could be him!

  31. #31 Greg
    February 10, 2014

    Bill still did not respond to the two simple questions that I posed to him. Hope he does not come with his mensa dissertations.

  32. #32 Denice Walter
    February 10, 2014

    * He simply accepts parental claims of vaccine injury uncritically *

    This reminds me of an hilarious “debate” I heard:
    ( it is archived but it is a b!tch to scroll through pages- might be easier to google name of guest/ name of show/ prn/
    late January 2011)
    Gary Null spent an hour with Brian Deer who discussed his findings concerning AJW. The lunatic host’s MAJOR objection was that the canny investigative journalist didn’t take parents at their word, ranting on and on about how parents knew and understood their children better than anyone else, how they saw the onslaught of autism before their very eyes, how he himself had interviewed “thousands” of parents who said EXACTLY same thing, etc.
    BD noted that if he had indeed interviewed thousands he would hardly have time for all of the other activities he claims he does. He managed that without laughing out loud.

    BASICALLY without that meme, AoA and TMR would have no material. NOR would their apologists.

  33. #33 lilady
    February 10, 2014

    The Troll has posted thousands of comments since he arrived here ten months ago.

    He is a typical troll who adds nothing to the dialogue, who gets his jollies by personal attacks on people who post comments and by referring to those diagnosed with ASDs in the most vicious terms.

    I pegged him for the phony “developmental specialist” he claims to be, within a few days of his first post…and thereafter have ignored him. Most probably he is on the dole because he has no education, no marketable skills and is unemployable…the typical dirtbag troll, an odious cellar dweller sponging off his mommy.

    Meanwhile, John D. Stone at AoA has posted an article about CNN and how he was shut out of a discussion on the internet; pure comedy gold:

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2014/02/cnn-runs-scared-from-the-truth-about-andrew-wakefield.html

  34. #34 Greg
    February 10, 2014

    Guys, I might add that I equate the VNCA cliam with believing in God. People say they do, but is it true? Who could believe in talking snakes, people turning into pillars of salt, a worldwide flood, and so on. Likewise, who really believes that parents vividly recalling their kids’ vaccine damages are all liars, except cases such as Hanna Poling? Who really believes that we have always had all these autistics, and we are just starting to notice them? Who believes that vaccine that target the immune system would stop short of causing autism, which also just happens to appears as an immune inflammation condition?

    I suspect the vast majority of Believers given a lie detection test would probably fail. Same for you guys.

  35. #35 Greg
    February 10, 2014

    Looks like Lilady is taking ‘ignoring me’ to a new level.
    (Damn — when is mom going to put the money in my account? Need to pay the rent!)

  36. #36 Greg
    February 10, 2014

    ‘To appear…’

  37. #37 Renate
    February 10, 2014

    @ Notation
    I ment neutered instead of nurtured. I s*** at English.

  38. #38 Denice Walter
    February 10, 2014

    @ Renate:

    Your EFL/ESL is usually more astute and entertaining than many commenters’ native English.

    -btw- I adopted a young neutered cat several years ago who hasn’t YET got it into his head that he IS neutered.
    I don’t have the heart to tell him.

  39. #39 Denice Walter
    February 10, 2014

    @ lilady:

    I would wonder if anyone who really studied psychology would naively accept parental report as the last word and would not know about diagnotic substitution, historical trends in diagnosis / treatment, neuro-developmental conditions et al.

    Although there are probably bad universities- but THAT bad? Seriously.

  40. #40 Renate
    February 10, 2014

    Well, one of my cats is neutered as well, but he still wants to get on his mother, something she doesn’t like. She is bigger than him.

    I suppose being active on websites in English helps a bit. It wasn’t my best subject at school. I was very good at chemistry.

  41. #41 herr doktor bimler
    February 10, 2014

    I meant neutered instead of nurtured.
    You can be frank here. No need for euphemisms. Call a spayed a spayed.

  42. #42 Shay
    February 10, 2014

    I think she’d prefer to be Renate.

  43. #43 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    February 10, 2014

    herr doktor bimler – you’re on the ball, I see.

  44. #44 herr doktor bimler
    February 10, 2014

    I like to think that I’m making a deferens.

  45. #45 lilady
    February 10, 2014

    @ Denice Walter: Many of the denizens from AoA know about diagnostic substitution first hand…including the “bot”…whose child was finally diagnosed with an ASD at age seven. Then we have the annoying AoA poster whose child, like mine, was diagnosed with a genetic disorder (which has autistic-like behaviors), at age two, and diagnosed with an ASD years later.

    Educational criteria which qualify a child for services, have broadened considerable since the passage of PL 94-182:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_for_All_Handicapped_Children_Act

    Dr. Roy Grinker’s explanation of the broadening of DSM Diagnostic Criteria regarding Autism/ASDs, should, IMO, be a reference for students at universities:

    http://www.unstrange.com/dsm1.html

  46. #46 Denice Walter
    February 10, 2014

    And how about Jake?
    Wasn’t he originally supposed to be ADHD but die Mutter decided that ASD/AS was more apropro.
    Not sure if that was ever seconded by a professional but
    “Moms know best!” (( shudder))

  47. #47 Narad
    February 10, 2014

    Bill still did not respond to the two simple questions that I posed to him.

    This may have to do with the fact it is stupidly posed and even more stupidly ignores everything you’ve been told about the subject already,* which has certainly flown right through the wide blue yonder between your ears, given your jaw-droppingly idiotic characterization as “mensa dissertations.”

    Moreover, you haven’t even been able to keep your own “question” straight, which has gone from an attempt to insist that belief is necessary for knowledge (demonstrably false) to whether knowledge without belief is “logical,” which self-contradictory and apropos of exactly nothing.

    Knowledge is a factive state, viz., the ability to correctly deliver correct information. The useless insistence that one has to drag something called “belief” into it is merely a sad case of the repetition compulsion. So, before bothering with your question, let’s ensure that you are qualified to ask it in the first place:

    1. Define “belief.”
    2a. Explain how one can know that oneself “believes” something.
    2b. Explain how someone else can “know” that somebody “believes” something.

    As for the broader matter of “not answering questions,” I’m still waiting for the α, 1 – β, and signal threshold from a vaccinated/unvaccinated trial that, in the endlessly and mechanically generated words of your object of praise and putative FUD-buddy Anne Dachel, would “settle the question overnight.”

    * Or perhaps nobody gives a flying fυck about your petulant binary demands.

  48. #48 Narad
    February 10, 2014

    ^ “It” in the first sentence being the “flat earth dilemma.”

  49. #49 Bill Price
    February 10, 2014

    It seems Greggypoo has been active during Orac’s maintenance period.
    Greg, #406, February 9, 2014:

    @Bill Price
    Thinking about it, Bill, you are a newcomer — at least to me – and I never really did officially ask you The Question. Anyway, Bill, it’s a real simple procedure. I ask the question, and you respond with a ‘yes’ or ‘no’. Here we go….

    How about we use this simple procedure: You ask the question yet again, and I reject it yet again, for the same reasons that we have explained to you over the months.

    Bill, do you believe vaccines play any causal role in the etiology of autism? (Thanks for assisting with the rephrasing of the question, Narad.).

    This is a new question, in that your original question tried to focus our attention on your VCA conjecture, where this question allows other considerations behind which you hide the nefarious intent. Both questions are phrased as a ‘sleight of hand’ to distract from the binary-belief trap. Changing the apparent substance of the question does not change the dishonest framing.

    Again, Bill, for demonstration purpose, I would respond, ‘yes’. Now your turn…

    Greg, child, I’ve addressed to your dishonest question several times over the months that you’ve been perseverating on it. Granted, I have not lied by giving either of the wrong answers that you try to restrict us to. Thus, you don’t have any record of e, falling for your scam — for reasons that we’ve explained repeatedly, you will not get such a record.

  50. #50 lilady
    February 10, 2014

    @ Denice Walter: We only have Jake’s posts on AoA to determine what his original diagnosis was (he was born in 1988):

    Here, Jake in a snit, because he heard that Ari Ne’eman was chosen to be interviewed by a magazine…and Jake wasn’t:

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/05/an-open-letter-to-newsweek-magazine-on-possible-neurodiversity-coverage.html

    “….Neurodiversity only adds insult to injury, especially when Ari Ne’eman uses his own experience of first being labelled ADD, then rediagnosed with Asperger Syndrome, to support epidemic denialism. I do not know Ari’s full story, as I cannot speak for him. However, I can give you a thorough run-down on my autistic experience. I was born in 1988; at the age of 2 and a half, my pediatrician referred me to developmental specialists as the result of early developmental delays I had with speech and language.

    When I was brought into New York City to see a psychologist at age 3, he predicted I would be diagnosed with a Pervasive Developmental Disorder (PDD) when I was older, explaining to my mother that I was on the Autism Spectrum. My young age at that time was probably the reason why he did not give me a diagnosis in writing. That was in 1992, two years before the DSM-IV came out listing PDD-NOS and Asperger Syndrome as a diagnosis as part of a PDD/ASD category….”

    Several times on AoA, he posted that he was prescribed Ritalin while in kindergarden and Ritalin gave him tics…so his mommy instituted her own “biomedical treatments”:

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/01/discovering-i-was-toxic.htm

    “….I found this difficult to comprehend. I was 16 at the time and knew I had Asperger Syndrome and received vaccines. I started worrying about my own problems, thinking, “If thimerosal can give someone severe autism, it could have given me Asperger’s.” But at that time I was unwilling to openly accept that I even had Asperger’s, and I locked the memory of the show deep down inside.

    Throughout high school and into college I would keep my diagnosis to myself. “Asperger’s” was just a label with some symptoms attached. Without a reason for my condition, my diagnosis always seemed incomplete.

    Part of my problem with my label was the kind of treatments I received for my condition. Since medications gave me terrible side effects, my mother gave me handfuls of vitamins for most of my life, and later B-12 injections which helped the most. I always wondered why I needed them. It didn’t make sense that Asperger’s was merely part of who I am, when I was given all these vitamins. I shouldn’t naturally have a vitamin deficiency. She also took me off dairy, took me off wheat for a long time, put me through Auditory Integration Therapy, and took me to a neurologist who glued electrodes to my head to test for seizures. I felt very different, not just because of my condition, but because of what my mother did to treat it. Everyone else I knew with Asperger’s was on medication….”

  51. #51 lilady
    February 10, 2014

    D’oh…I managed to mangle the second link….try this one:

    http://www.ageofautism.com/2009/01/discovering-i-was-toxic.html

  52. #52 Jeff1971
    February 10, 2014

    He’s toxic, certainly. But learning he was vaccine damaged by watching Rupert Murdoch’s Fox News?

    Bwahaaaahaaaaa!

  53. #53 Bill Price
    February 10, 2014

    Lawrence, #415, February 10, 2014, to Greggypoo:

    Hmmm….the only real side-effect from the anti-vaccine movement we’ve seen is a resurgence of vaccine preventable diseases, which is leading to an increase in serious conditions like pneumonia & other complications (including the deaths of numerous infants).
    Glad to see you can pat yourself on the back there, idiot.

    By George, I think you’ve got it! The Greg/AoA Grand Plan for Reducing Autism! Simple – just kill off kids using VPDs, before their autism becomes obvious. Voila! Fewer autistics get recognized!

  54. #54 Narad
    February 10, 2014

    This is a new question, in that your original question tried to focus our attention on your VCA conjecture, where this question allows other considerations behind which you hide the nefarious intent.

    Jesus Christ, the mercy of automoderation allowed me to miss the fact that Gerg had attempted to trot out this particular line of shıt again, after having repeatedly and conclusively demonstrated that the outcome of the demand doesn’t matter, all the while sniveling that it bears no resemblance to a loaded question.

    Speaking of which, let us recall what went along with that, from the same comments:

    Greg you are asking a ‘did you stop beating your wife question’….. Please!! If tomorrow a vax/unvax is study completed showing that the two groups have the same autism rate, or if evidence surface of unvaccinated kids dramatically descending into autism like Hanna Poling, or if ‘miraculous’ findings reveal that autism incidence is not increasing after all, or if ‘extraordinary’ proof surfaces that vaccine courts didn’t really compensate for autism damages after all, etc — etc……

    Wait for it….

    If tomorrow if all these things were to happen and someone asks me if I believe that vaccines do cause autism, then I would respond with a firm ‘no’! No hesitation, no procrastinating!!

  55. #55 skeptiquette
    Madison, Wi
    February 10, 2014

    @PGP

    skeptiquette: Categorizing people is the best strategy I’ve come up with for dealing with my fellow human beings.

    Actually, this is completely reasonable. Categorizing people based on intimate knowledge gained from personal interaction is a great strategy for dealing with fellow human beings and building stronger relationships. It is when a categorization is extrapolated to entire populations or demographics or geographical areas that a problem in logic arises. It would be like me saying, I met this attorney the other day and what a dishonest prick that guy was, sheesh, I never want to even talk to an attorney again, they are all dishonest and prickish. That is obviously a big fail.

    And it’s not fear; I simply refuse to deal with anyone who isn’t likely to see me as a person.

    But… this begs the question of: How would you know if someone is not likely to see you as a person without having intimate/personal knowledge about that person?

    Or, more likely, I will talk with them, but lie like a rug.

    And most do this, maybe not lie like a rug, but most omit things or learn how to navigate cautiously before divulging more personal or opinionated information. I would just consider this strategy as being tactful.

    Why bother enthusing about dinosaurs or stars with someone who’s religion doesn’t let them look up?

    For sure! I wasn’t trying to suggest that we need to befriend anyone and everyone, just that you might have a common ground with that someone that isn’t related to dinosaurs or stars. For example, I have a in-law that believes in creationism ( I just became aware of this recently) and initially I was a little perturbed, but then I considered the fact that she doesn’t have any background in science, has no understanding about DNA, speciation, natural selection, fossil records, etc, etc, and I realized that without any knowledge in these subjects and a strong religious upbringing, the default would be creationism. It is what it is, BUT, I can talk real estate investment with this person because she knows her shit, weird huh?

    As for the offer at the Student Union; I don’t drink much socially. Most of my drinking is done while waiting for the band to start up.

    I hear ya, I’m not much of a social drinker either. It was more just an example of a venue where a diverse group of people congregate and enjoy life that would be hard to rigidly categorize.

    No, it’s a result of being frustrated. People don’t read for fun in the US, which rules out most of my possible employment paths.

    Read for fun? Yes people do. I do. I am a person. More importantly there are multiple industries that are contingent on the fact that people read for fun. What would you like to do?

    And conservatism is getting more and more traction here; why bother fighting when the other side has all the dough?

    Did you see the latest re: Scotty and his recall campaign probe? Scott Walker president 16′! hip hip hooray!

    Regarding the dough part, you are certainly correct and this is a huge problem we face. Big business collusion with government is probably the most pressing problem we face as a society, we are steadily heading towards a plutocratic system of governance. Figuring out a way to counter the oligarchical nature of our governing/business enterprise is something we have to collectively fight for. You may find enjoyment in reading the essays of Rebecca Solnit, she is an eloquent writer that has a special ability of imbuing hope in the shadows of darkness that permeate our thoughts wrt the why bother?

    Not to mention that parenting in the US is a bad deal and soon to be mandatory when they ban birth control. No reliable day care, no parental leave (never gonna happen) and all sorts of difficulty at work, and the hyper competitive mommies. Yeah, anywhere else is starting to look really good.

    I understand. But I would disagree that parenting will be mandatory, how would that even work?

    Day care, parental leave and the good ol’ hyper competitive mommies (gotta love em, not!) are all issues that come into play when children come in the cards, but they are not insurmountable. We work with a business development consultant and she has 5 kids, and she has a full time job besides what she does to help us, she is a go-getter and she gets it done!

    It is very easy to fall for the grass is greener on the other side mentality, but I will use a cliché to answer that: “the grass is greener where you water it”

    Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that one of lilady’s bete noires is now pretending she has Aspergers. Boy, they’re really upping the ante on the pretzel logic there, aren’t they?

    Sorry, I am not sure what you are referring to here, feel free to clarify.

    Lilady is a fighter, she has been and will be and deserves respect for dedicating so much of her time for the welfare of others, yea she can be abrasive at times, but that is probably a result of all the battles that she has waged on behalf of less fortunate people. I respect her for that even if I don’t always come to the same conclusions as her, same goes to the rest of the RI crew.

  56. #56 Denice Walter
    February 10, 2014

    Well, there are unvaccinated children who “descend” into autism- as a matter of fact, one of them is sometimes featured prominently @ AoA as she is Stagliano’s youngest daughter.

    But wait-t haven’t all of those requirements been illustrated ALREADY altho’ the first requirement was by retrospective studies?

  57. #57 Bill Price
    February 10, 2014

    Greg, #431, February 10, 2014:

    Bill still did not respond to the two simple questions that I posed to him.

    What questions would those be? I’ve responded to those that I have seen, the one about flat-earth beliefs and the retreaded “do you believe in VCA” scam question. If you claim there are more, please post references so I can find them.

    Hope he does not come with his mensa dissertations.

    According to Wikipedia:

    Mensa may refer to:
    Mensa International, an organization for people with a high intelligence quotient (IQ)
    Mensa (constellation), a constellation in the southern sky
    Mensa (ecclesiastical)
    Mensa (geology), an extraterrestrial area of raised land
    Mensa Music, a record label in partnership with Aquarius Records
    In German, the term Mensa is used to refer to a university cafeteria

    Since I’ve never written a dissertation for or about any of these referents, it’s hard to decipher what you are babbling about. Perhaps you’re just trying to bad-mouth my attempts at raising your level of understanding, because they’re above your chosen Dunning-Kreuger level.
    Disclosure: I did take the Mensa International test, for kicks and information. I’ve never considered intelligence to be a note-worthy attribute: such intelligence as I have has been useful to me and others, but it’s really no big deal. I found the Mensa members I’ve known to be too ego-ridden to be sufferable. I’ve found equal insufferability in those whose ego is offended by a Mensa International rejection. YMMV.

  58. #58 lilady
    February 10, 2014

    @ skeptiquette: I saw pgp’s comment and I chose to ignore it.

    Unfortunately, pgp has a habit of categorizing people to the point where her remarks are downright insulting; she loves to stir the sh!t.

    She has in the past posted comments about not trusting male doctors and men in general, who are, in her opinion, “potential rapists”.

    I used to defend her, because I felt sorry for her. Now, I mostly just ignore her remarks, because she will never admit that she could possibly be mistaken.

  59. #59 Bill Price
    February 10, 2014

    Ref Greg, #434:
    Is this a projectile post? After I identify Greg’s behavior as True Believer behavior, and he acknowledges it (but not in those terms), he comes out with a ridiculous accusation that evidence-based thinking is religious, but his belief-based thinking isn’t. Certainly looks like projection to me.
    His behavior reminds me of a “Statement of Faith” that’s shared among many religious sites on the web. The last article amounts to a statement of Greg’s (and AoA’s) faith: “If reality differs from what we choose to believe, then reality is wrong.”
    (My favorite instance can be found at Answersingenesis.com/about/faith, although I’ve seen it elsewhere. AiG is a young-earth christian-creationist company, owned and operated by Ken Ham. They own and operate the creation “museum” attraction in Kentucky, and are building the “Ark Park” attraction there, also.)

  60. #60 BA
    Providing Tx and not sitting at my computer waiting to troll
    February 10, 2014

    @381 or actually anyone other than that poster.

    Some of the evidence is referenced above in a previous post and I don’t post for that poster’s education. It wouldn’t know evidence if it bit him in the ass. Again the assessment I gave accurately reflects the evidence in the CR. I also happen to know the author and the evidence is time limited. READ THE STUDY, the methods discuss this.

  61. #61 Narad
    February 10, 2014

    Who believes that vaccine that target the immune system would stop short of causing autism, which also just happens to appears as an immune inflammation condition?

    A truly spectacular level of idiocy. Well done.

  62. #62 lilady
    February 10, 2014

    Time for lilady’s Media Update…it’s a twofer…Dr. Oz and Dr. Mercola. (Odd that the bot didn’t post this link on her daily Media Update):

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2014/02/10/dr-oz-has-invited-joe-mercola-on-his-show-does-he-endorse-mercolas-anti-vaccine-views/

  63. #63 Narad
    February 10, 2014

    -btw- I adopted a young neutered cat several years ago who hasn’t YET got it into his head that he IS neutered.
    I don’t have the heart to tell him.

    My eldest has been carrying on a long-term romance with a blue shirt, which he chose over an identical white one when both were unpackaged. He’ll knock over the basket to retrieve it when it’s been laundered.

  64. #64 Greg
    February 10, 2014

    Greg questions to Bill:
    1. Do you think it’s logical for one to he knows the earth is round but does not believe it?
    2. Do you believe that vaccines play any role in the etiology of autism.

    Facing the prospect of committing perjury, or conceding to an inconvenient truth, it appears that Bill is essentially pleading the 5th. Your evasion is duly noted sir.

    @Narad

    As for the broader matter of “not answering questions,” I’m still waiting for the α, 1 – β, and signal threshold from a vaccinated/unvaccinated trial that, in the endlessly and mechanically generated words of your object of praise and putative FUD-buddy Anne Dachel, would “settle the question overnight.”

    Narad, I have made no secret that I am a layperson. Indeed I believe the best study that should be pursued to settle the VCA matter is a vax/unvax study. If the ethical ramification of such as study cannot be overcome, then perhaps researchers should study unvax populations to see if they have a 1 in 50 autism rate. As well, animal vax/unvax studies should definitely be persued.

    As to the statistics that would be involved in these studies, I make no claim to be knowledge on this matter to where I am able to offer an input. That I will leave to the experts.

  65. #65 Greg
    February 10, 2014

    @464
    ‘to say…’

  66. #66 Narad
    February 10, 2014

    I suspect the vast majority of Believers given a lie detection test would probably fail. Same for you guys.

    And, just to heap futher scorn on the transparently obvious, Gerg is here, unsurprisingly, chasing his amateurishly bobbed tail yet again:

    Greg
    January 26, 2014
    Ok — here is it MI Dawn — now I joke a lot here but I am dead serious: Go to an independent party and have a lie detection test done, and please provide the results. If everything is legit, and you are telling the truth, I will offer a full apology.

    MI Dawn
    January 26, 2014
    @Greg: oh, you ARE funny. But, sure. You pay to have it done – and I’ll happily undergo a lie detector test. I have no fears, since I don’t believe vaccines cause autism, that any test would show differently.

    By the way, Greg. I sincerely doubt you will accept the test results anyway.

    Greg
    January 26, 2014
    @MI Dawn
    Very well then MI Dawn, I agree that a lie detector is not without its problems and uncertainties. The fact though that you would genuinely believe that vaccines do not cause autism is utterly astonishing.

    Yet here it is, stercoraceously vomiting the same material that he can’t dispose of in the natural fashion. One might further note* that an addition to the list of items that Gerg has glaringly ignored fell out of this previous comical retreat, i.e., the failure to document his credentials to his own standard, which therefore can only be assumed to be a fiction.

    * Particularly if one were me.

  67. #67 Alain
    February 10, 2014

    @Orac,

    Will Alain explain or link to Michelle Dawson’s argument, in order to educate my readers?

    here: http://www.sentex.net/~nexus23/naa_aba.html

    My statement will come Wednesday when I’ll be better acquainted of the goals of the different ABA therapy.

    Alain

  68. #68 Denice Walter
    February 10, 2014

    @ Narad:

    Mine adores bedclothes.

    ( re gregger:
    *stercoraceously* is apt.)

  69. #69 notation
    February 10, 2014

    @Grog, who vomits: ” Who could believe in talking snakes, people turning into pillars of salt, a worldwide flood, and so on. Likewise, who really believes that parents vividly recalling their kids’ vaccine damages are all liars, except cases such as Hanna Poling? Who really believes that we have always had all these autistics, and we are just starting to notice them?”

    Gee, who would believe that girls in Salem were consorting with Satan?

    Except they did, you moron. Didn’t make it true. Neither does the conviction of parents make THEIR beliefs true.

  70. #70 notation
    February 10, 2014

    #437, Renate: no, you don’t suck at English at all. It was funny.

    Grog, though, sucks the big one at English, science, math, and religion.

  71. #71 herr doktor bimler
    February 10, 2014

    he was vaccine damaged by watching Rupert Murdoch’s Fox News?
    I am happy to believe that watching Fox News can damage you; just not in that particular way.

  72. #72 Narad
    February 10, 2014

    Meanwhile, John D. Stone at AoA has posted an article about CNN and how he was shut out of a discussion on the internet; pure comedy gold:

    Particularly amusing is Stone’s retort to the accusation of hypocrisy: “No, the point is in the headline: CNN are running scared of the truth about Wakefield. A site like AoA has to be pre-moderated otherwise it would be over-run with abusive stuff like your comment and no one would get a word in.”

    ORLY? Is there evidence from, oh, say, before AoA “started” pre-filtering comments? The place is a freaking sewer; who’s going to “over-run” it when a diving bell is a necessary item of neuroprotective gear?

    The funny thing is that, with over 1400 comments on that entry, there’s no way even to check Stone’s contention to see whether the comments ultimately appeared. His one attempt to link to a portion of the comments fails, and he didn’t bother to link a Disqus-linked persona of his own, which would yield the comment numbers and perhaps the context, depending on how broken CNN’s setup is (pretty broken, from what I can tell, although clicking on the dastardly Tony”s name indeed pulls up his comments).

    The simple fact of the matter is that Stone has his skirt over his head for nothing. I posted a reply to Christina Waldman (“truthandcourage” or “courageandtruth,” whatever) regarding the credentials of Miller and Neustaedter, and it promptly vanished. CNN’s no better than SnuffPo, and only a fool would make a show of whining about the venue and how, boo hoo, it’s all personal rather than mentally noting the arbitrariness of how the place is run and not bothering with it in the future.

  73. #73 Narad
    February 11, 2014

    Narad, I have made no secret that I am a layperson.

    Pull the other one, jackass. You’ve postured at expertise on basically every shiny half-thought you’ve grasped onto here and required seemingly endless attempts to pound basic concepts into the carbonaceous formation atop your neck-tube before realizing your utter failure and proclaiming that you “must leave” so that you can not only reappear with fresh stupidity, but also pretend that everything else never happened, viz., you can just start repeating it all over again.

    Indeed I believe the best study that should be pursued to settle the VCA matter is a vax/unvax study. If the ethical ramification of such as study cannot be overcome….

    You have previously been told that you can set aside the ethical issue in order to demonstrate whether you knew what you were talking about in the first place, so that evasion can be set aside for good.

    As to the statistics that would be involved in these studies, I make no claim to be knowledge on this matter to where I am able to offer an input. That I will leave to the experts.

    You have been given explicit pointers on how to educate yourself about this topic repeatedly. If you are too damned lazy or stupid to pursue them, I suggest that you shut the fυck up about the subject entirely, because you don’t have a goddamned thing to say. Feel free to convey the same sentiment to your FUD-bud the Dachelbot.

  74. #74 Narad
    February 11, 2014

    Speaking of Christina Waldman, Esq. (as she denotes herself on the Free Yurko! petition), check this out:

    The Wakefield Wikipedia article is grossly defamatory, although Wikipedia is supposed to have safeguards to protect a biography of a living person from defamation. I have tried several times to suggest edits to that article, and met with the same “Praetorian Guard” phenomenon John mentioned. Some people involved with that Wakefield Wikipedia article also wrote the Jan. 6, 2011 Washington Times articles on Dr. Wakefield in the same vein (Jan. 6, 2011 being, of course, the date of Brian Deer’s alleged defamation of Dr. Wakefield and his work in the British Medical Journal).

    I stay away from Wikipedia and warn other people that Wikipedia is not credible. You might think people would be more careful not to post information without checking facts for accuracy, but there’s a lack of oversight on Wikipedia.

    Yes, Christina, yes, you might. Let’s see: Her “suggestions” consisted of* two ab initio attempts at large-scale revision and a single comment to the talk page pointing out the obvious, the aftermath of which was that… the page remained unlocked.

    Some “Praetorian Guard” that is.

    * Generously assuming that she didn’t try to do the same thing under different semi-identities.

  75. #75 lilady
    February 11, 2014

    I’ve had some contact with Waldman on blogs. She’s not quite as loony as Parker…but running as a close second.

  76. #76 Bill Price
    February 11, 2014

    Greg, #464, February 10, 2014:

    Greg questions to Bill:
    1. Do you think it’s logical for one to [say] he knows the earth is round but does not believe it?

    At first blush, I would suspect so. Of course, since I don’t (usually) go off half cocked, I would examine the context and any other evidence before I would raise my suspicion to a higher level.
    For example, if I were building a house, or even a skyscraper, I would be wary of an engineer who used spherical (round-earth) geometry for his calculations, from a belief that round-earth geometry was appropriate.

    2. Do you believe that vaccines play any role in the etiology of autism.

    We’ve been through this several times in the months you’ve been babbling here. But since you have changed the substantive part of your question, and changed the demand for the binary (religious) interpretation of ‘believe’ in your framing, I’ll address it, again.
    I observe at least one mechanism by which vaccines may be said play a rôle in the etiology of autism: an autistic youngun that dies of a VPD before his autism is diagnosed certainly arrests the progression of his symptoms; the vaccine that protects the young (prediagnosis) autistic child from death by VPD allows the autism to progress to diagnosis. Does that observation count? This mechanism would effect the absolute number of autism diagnoses, but wouldn’t matter much to prevalence.
    Seriously, “believe”, especially as you use it, is so much an equivocation that no observant person can give a truthful answer to your question.
    The definitive answer to the substantive issue remains: the evidence shows precious little, if any, relationship between vaccination and autism.

    Facing the prospect of committing perjury, or conceding to an inconvenient truth, it appears that Bill is essentially pleading the 5th.

    No, I’m objecting to the form of the question, since either “yes” or “no”, to a belief-ridden ego problem like you’ve shown yourself to be would be a lie (in the misrepresentation of the answer that’s required by your religious predilections). By the way, Greggypoo, ‘perjury’ refers to a lie, under oath, that has significant effect on the outcome of a proceeding.

    Your evasion is duly noted sir.

    I encountered this post (the first time I saw these questions) at 20140211T0540 (GMT). Would you care to elaborate on the “evasion” of which you speak, or are you just being disingenuous again? It’s now, just before I submit this comment, 20140211T0630.
    Oops, I got interrupted to give some care to my disabled wife. It’s now 0700. submitting.

  77. #77 Narad
    February 11, 2014

    I’ve had some contact with Waldman on blogs. She’s not quite as loony as Parker…but running as a close second.

    Waldman may not appear to be as overtly deranged as Cynthia Parker to the casual observer, but she plainly fails to understand why people refuse to fall in line when her massively bloated ego winds up emitting such gems as this:

    Herd immunity is a concept that derived from observing natural immunity in animal herds exposed to actual disease. It is assumed that it works the same way with immunizations, but not all evidence leads that way. I say it is theoretical as all science is theory until proven otherwise.

    Um, not exactly, Christina, unless one thinks that word coincidences get you to here and thence to PDEs that owe nothing of consequence to 19th-century cattle breeders.

    And there’s the rub: Waldman is rigid. She’s as likely as not to burrow ever deeper into weird conspiracies to explain her lot. She’s moved from the armpit of Illinois, Carbondale, to a close contender, Rochester. Someone is clearly failing to appreciate the brilliant analytical and tactical skills that she so finely honed in America’s No. 140 law school.* Just give it time.

    * Desribed less charitably elsewhere.

  78. #78 lilady
    February 11, 2014

    Someone else at AoA isn’t too pleased with Wikipedia’s entry on one of the key players in the vaccine/autism controversy. I’m thinking these comments about Wikipedia entries might become a pastime for the groupies and a feature on AoA:

    “The Wiki entry for Dr. Jon Poling also contains tactical omissions and biased sources — Kathleen Seidel, Rahul Parikh, Paul Offit, Steven Novella and Matt Carey in the article, plus Gardiner Harris and Mike Stobbe in the references.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Poling

    Sad that Wikipedia degenerated so rapidly into little more than a digital pissing contest. And tragic that mainstream journalists show so little interest in correcting the false official story on MMR injury… especially because that and other shots continue to claim more tiny victims.

    Posted by: nhokkanen | February 10, 2014 at 09:59 PM”

  79. #79 lilady
    February 11, 2014

    Someone else at AoA isn’t too pleased with Wikipedia’s entry on one of the key players in the vaccine/autism controversy. I’m thinking these comments about Wikipedia entries might become a pastime for the groupies and a feature on AoA:

    “The Wiki entry for Dr. Jon Poling also contains tactical omissions and biased sources — Kathleen Seidel, Rahul Parikh, Paul Offit, Steven Novella and Matt Carey in the article, plus Gardiner Harris and Mike Stobbe in the references.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Poling

    Sad that Wikipedia degenerated so rapidly into little more than a digital pissing contest. And tragic that mainstream journalists show so little interest in correcting the false official story on MMR injury… especially because that and other shots continue to claim more tiny victims.

    Posted by: nhokkanen | February 10, 2014 at 09:59 PM”

  80. #80 lilady
    February 11, 2014

    Someone else at AoA isn’t too pleased with Wikipedia’s entry on one of the key players in the vaccine/autism controversy. I’m thinking these comments about Wikipedia entries might become a pastime for the groupies and a feature on AoA:

    “The Wiki entry for Dr. Jon Poling also contains tactical omissions and biased sources — Kathleen Seidel, Rahul Parikh, Paul Offit, Steven Novella and Matt Carey in the article, plus Gardiner Harris and Mike Stobbe in the references.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Poling

    Sad that Wikipedia degenerated so rapidly into little more than a digital pissing contest. And tragic that mainstream journalists show so little interest in correcting the false official story on MMR injury… especially because that and other shots continue to claim more tiny victims.

    Posted by: nhokkanen | February 10, 2014 at 09:59 PM”

  81. #81 lilady
    February 11, 2014

    Having trouble posting…

    Another example of an AoA groupie who doesn’t trust Wikipedia. It looks like the start of a trend for them:

    “The Wiki entry for Dr. Jon Poling also contains tactical omissions and biased sources — Kathleen Seidel, Rahul Parikh, Paul Offit, Steven Novella and Matt Carey in the article, plus Gardiner Harris and Mike Stobbe in the references.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Poling

    Sad that Wikipedia degenerated so rapidly into little more than a digital pissing contest. And tragic that mainstream journalists show so little interest in correcting the false official story on MMR injury… especially because that and other shots continue to claim more tiny victims.

    Posted by: nhokkanen | February 10, 2014 at 09:59 PM”

  82. #82 lilady
    February 11, 2014

    Four posts! Sorry.

  83. #83 Narad
    February 11, 2014

    I observe at least one mechanism by which vaccines may be said play a rôle in the etiology of autism: an autistic youngun that dies of a VPD before his autism is diagnosed certainly arrests the progression of his symptoms

    Speaking of which, It’s a Happy Day, Sunshine Gerg! Of course, one cannot ascribe causality from this remove, but this must be a sign of good things to come!

    Let us recall:

    [W]e need to erode the public’s trust in vaccines. We are starting to see this…. The net is a powerful means for fostering this distrust and I think it would be great if we could support Anne. I did not see much takers, but I am definitely on board.

    It’s only a matter of time, Gerg! If you really, really knelieve, you may be able to deliver this with some goods for a change, as the idyll inexorably blows to fruition:

    I win–I win!!

    It’s sad that I’m out of links, but I don’t think Tuli would mind* if I merely quote him:

    Kill, kill, kill for peace
    Kill, kill, kill for peace
    Kill, it will give you a mental ease
    Kill, it will give you a big release

    I will be Very Disappointed if you fail to deliver this Good News to the slobovians at AoA properly.

    * Yes, I keep the autograph in a frame.

  84. #84 dingo199
    February 11, 2014

    I thought the Poling wiki entry was objective and accurate. The points raised by the people like Siedel are merely factual, so how can the AoA clowns object? No doubt they want the article to claim that Hannah’s autism was directly caused by vaccines and that was what the settlement was for, but since that isn’t the truth why do they want Wiki to lie about it?
    In fact the wiki article could have gone much further. It could have explained how the prior submission for compensation acts as a huge conflict of interest regarding the subsequent Poling paper implicating vaccines in Hannah’s “autism”, and how this conflict of interest was hidden from both Poling’s coauthors and the journal he submitted the article to, which resulted in a major knuckle rapping for Poling from the editor. Shades of Andrew Wakefield indeed.

  85. #85 Julian Frost
    February 11, 2014

    Greg:

    Narad, I have made no secret that I am a layperson. Indeed I believe the best study that should be pursued to settle the VCA matter is a vax/unvax study.

    It has been pointed out to you REPEATEDLY that a vax/unvax study would be unethical, violate the Helsinki Accord, and be shot down by any properly constituted Ethical Review Board.
    You are indeed a layperson.

    . If the ethical ramification of such as study cannot be overcome, then perhaps researchers should study unvax populations to see if they have a 1 in 50 autism rate.

    Some such studies have been done, although they are too small to be definitive. One was a telephone survey done by homeopaths. Hilariously, it found that the vaccinated are less likely to be autistic. Unfortunately, it was very weak (self-reporting, small size, possible selection bias).

  86. #86 Amanda
    BC
    February 11, 2014

    Bill Price – Thank you for the heads up regarding the baby who (tragically) passed away from pertussis. It was in Riverside County, yes? I googled.
    It provides an excellent argument for me, as that is a nice halfway point between my boyfriend and his ex, who share custody of their completely unvaccinated 2 year-old son.

  87. #87 Orac
    February 11, 2014

    Another example of an AoA groupie who doesn’t trust Wikipedia. It looks like the start of a trend for them:

    They’re just taking a page from the playbook of fans of Stanislaw Burzynski, who relentlessly complain about his Wikipedia entry and claim Wikipedia has been “hijacked” by a shadowy cabal of “Skeptics.” 🙂

  88. #88 Greg
    February 11, 2014

    [W]e need to erode the public’s trust in vaccines. We are starting to see this…. The net is a powerful means for fostering this distrust and I think it would be great if we could support Anne. I did not see much takers, but I am definitely on board.

    Drug pushers, I am quite proud of my stance on vaccines. A product that can often cause a serious permanent disability — autism– in 1 in 50 kids, plus other previously noted adverse effects — ADHD, SIDS, learning disability, asthma, diabetes, allergies, cancers, and so on — is something to be shun. Perhaps, at one time we could have entertained the discussion of whether the benefits outweigh the risks. Yet, as the picture becomes clearer, it appears that this ship has long sailed. The benefits do not outweigh the risks!

    Anyway drug pushers, I must take another of my extended breaks. I will leave you to reflect on this comment. When I return, perhaps, we may start the discussion of the best way to phase out vaccines.

    • #89 Orac
      February 11, 2014

      Drug pushers, I am quite proud of my stance on vaccines. A product that can often cause a serious permanent disability — autism– in 1 in 50 kids, plus other previously noted adverse effects — ADHD, SIDS, learning disability, asthma, diabetes, allergies, cancers, and so on — is something to be shunned.

      Except that vaccines cause none of those conditions. Certainly, antivaccinationists like yourself have never been able to provide convincing evidence that they do, and there’s abundant evidence in the scientific literature that they don’t cause autism, ADHD, developmental disability, asthma, etc. In fact, in the case of SIDS, there’s evidence that vaccines are protective.

  89. #90 Greg
    February 11, 2014

    @488, quotes for first paragraph, and ‘to be shunned..’

  90. #91 Julian Frost
    February 11, 2014

    Greg:

    A product that can often cause a serious permanent disability — autism– in 1 in 50 kids, plus other previously noted adverse effects — ADHD, SIDS, learning disability, asthma, diabetes, allergies, cancers, and so on — is something to be shun. Perhaps, at one time we could have entertained the discussion of whether the benefits outweigh the risks. Yet, as the picture becomes clearer, it appears that this ship has long sailed. The benefits do not outweigh the risks.

    Citation needed for every claim you’ve made.

    When I return, perhaps, we may start the discussion of the best way to phase out vaccines.

    Simple. We do it the same way smallpox was phased out. We vaccinate for long enough that the diseases die out in the wild, then we stop vaccinating against them.

  91. #92 notation
    February 11, 2014

    Groggy spews: “A product that can often cause a serious permanent disability — autism– in 1 in 50 kids, plus other previously noted adverse effects — ADHD, SIDS, learning disability, asthma, diabetes, allergies, cancers, and so on — is something to be shun. Perhaps, at one time we could have entertained the discussion of whether the benefits outweigh the risks. Yet, as the picture becomes clearer, it appears that this ship has long sailed. The benefits do not outweigh the risks!”

    Idiot, you haven’t shown ANY evidence that vaccines cause autism or any of the other maladies you listed. When are you going to do that? And the word is “shunned,” you stupid git. Furthermore, the benefits of vaccination have been shown time and time again to outweigh the risks. When you can prove otherwise, do so.

    Don’t let the door hit you where the good Lord split you.

  92. #93 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 11, 2014
    Who believes that vaccine that target the immune system would stop short of causing autism, which also just happens to appears as an immune inflammation condition?

    A truly spectacular level of idiocy. Well done.

    Even if we treated “autism is an immune inflammation condition” as a 100% unquestionably correct premise for the purposes of argument – it still wouldn’t point to “vaccines cause autism”, because “vaccines protect against autism is an equally reasonable conclusion from that premise.

    This has been pointed out to Dreg before, but he doesn’t have the requisite resources of intelligence/honesty to stop trotting it out.

    Greg questions to Bill:
    1. Do you think it’s logical for one to he knows the earth is round but does not believe it?
    2. Do you believe that vaccines play any role in the etiology of autism.

    Facing the prospect of committing perjury, or conceding to an inconvenient truth, it appears that Bill is essentially pleading the 5th. Your evasion is duly noted sir.

    I quoted this because it demonstrates something all lurkers should understand about Dreg: his arrogance is unbounded. “Perjury” is lying to a legal authority. “Pleading the Fifth Amendment” is invoking a right to not incriminate oneself even if directed to do so by a legal authority.

    So, lurkers, Dreg is effectively falsely representing himself as a legal authority. In truth, Dreg wouldn’t even be allowed to serve on a jury, not if counsel for either side knew how arrogantly he throws out actual evidence and pronounces judgment based on prejudices:


    Ok Orac’s vaccine pushers, according to my informal tally we have three liars who admitted to believing that vaccines do not cause autism. There were more but I had to disqualify them because they went beyond a one word response. We also have zero honest people who are admitting to a link. The rest of you are chickens, not providing a response, and including you Lawrence. Hey Lawrence, did you vaccinate your kid(s) or is that a ‘are you still beating your wife’ question? Wimp! Anyway, I am hoping to have more chickens weigh in on the matter. Keep also providing your responses on how we should proceed once you all come clean and admit that vaccines are responsible for the current autism explosion.

    Also from the same link above, regarding the question with which he’s now pestering Bill:

    You might be interested to know that I don’t care about your response either way. I just want to see if you will fess up or prove his/herself to be a liar.

    So, no, Bill is not “pleading the Fifth”, because he is not answering questions from an actual legal authority. He is quite wisely ignoring questions asked for dishonest purposes, by someone who has announced beforehand that they plan to twist whatever answer they get.

    Lurkers, is this really the side you want to throw in with? This isn’t limited to Greg; the antivax sites like Age of Autism are infamous for deleting comments that don’t fit with their beliefs. Why is it that the science-based medicine side can consider antivax arguments and respond to them reasonably, but the antivax side is reduced to ploys like “Ooops, that inconvenient question just magically disappeared from existence!” and “Ooh, you better answer my rigged question because otherwise you’ll be in big trouble with my for-real pretend legal authoritay!”??

    Narad, I have made no secret that I am a layperson.

    Except when he claimed to have a study design which was so foolproof, which would settle the VCA “debate” so thoroughly, that the only reason mainstream medicine could possibly hesitate to do so such a study is if they were afraid of what the results would show. You can’t make a claim like that, which depends upon expert knowledge, then turn around and say “Oh, I’m only a layperson!”

    Again, lurkers, is this who you want to depend on? People who pretend to be legal authorities when they aren’t and never were? People who flip back and forth between “I’m only a layperson, how unfair of you to ask me for specifics on my scientific claims” and “You’re a liar if you say you don’t believe my scientific claims, because my brilliant scientific analysis proves them to be true beyond any reasonable doubt!”?

  93. #94 dingo199
    February 11, 2014

    Drug pushers, I am quite proud of my stance on vaccines… // gobsmacking verbigeration //….The benefits do not outweigh the risks!

    Greg, you do realise that measles vaccine in the last 12 years has prevented the deaths of 13,800,000 children?
    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6305a5.htm?s_cid=mm6305a5_e

    And you do not think that is a “benefit”?
    If so you are no better than a despicable, crazed child killer.

  94. #95 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 11, 2014

    Drug pushers, I am quite proud of my stance on vaccines.

    Which means nothing. White supremacists are quite proud of their vicious hatred for non-whites, but it doesn’t mean that stance is laudable, or based on anything other than pseudoscience.

    A product that can often cause a serious permanent disability — autism– in 1 in 50 kids, plus other previously noted adverse effects — ADHD, SIDS, learning disability, asthma, diabetes, allergies, cancers, and so on — is something to be shun.

    Since Dreg has approximately the same command of logic that your average rhesus monkey has of a Harrier jet, I’ll spell out the full syllogism that Dreg thinks he’s completing:

    1) A product that can often cause a serious permanent disability — autism– in 1 in 50 kids, plus other previously noted adverse effects — ADHD, SIDS, learning disability, asthma, diabetes, allergies, cancers, and so on — is something to be shun.
    2) (unstated) Vaccines are such a product.
    3) Therefore vaccines should be shunned.

    The problem for Dreg is that a syllogism only has logical force if its form is correct and BOTH its premises are true, and though he may bluster and blather that the evidence showing vaccines to cause that laundry list of problems is solid, it’s not. He’s embarrassed himself before laying out what looks to HIS perceptions like the solid evidence, and the holes in it are huge enough to accomodate a rhesus-piloted Harrier.

    Just the fact that one of the strongest pieces of “evidence” Dreg can cite is ‘autism appears to have something to do with the immune system, and vaccines do too’ (which as we’ve already pointed out, is just as strong “evidence” that vaccines prevent autism as that they cause it) shows that he’s got nothing adequate for premise #2. Which is why he more frequently just tries to repeat premise #1 over and over again, as though that could fill the evidentiary gap.

    Perhaps, at one time we could have entertained the discussion of whether the benefits outweigh the risks. Yet, as the picture becomes clearer, it appears that this ship has long sailed. The benefits do not outweigh the risks!

    If you believe that, Dreg, you should go out and get smallpox, and then see whether you would have preferred the vaccine instead. In fact… why don’t you just go out and get smallpox.

  95. #96 Denice Walter
    February 11, 2014

    Right, they get all perturbed over Wikip____, which you can’t really sue as Gary Null discovered ( see Quackwatch/ recent additions/ credential watch).

    So Andy and the others are quite stuck with those entries: what makes it EVEN worse for them is that Wiki links to OTHER articles, e.g. Null’s links to Barrett, newspaper articles detailing his self-poisoning episode etc.

  96. #97 Jeff1971
    February 11, 2014

    Re: #471

    I’m struggling to phrase the information for maximum hilarity:

    “Watching Fox News, Jake Crosby realized he was brain damaged by vaccination.”

  97. #98 Greg
    February 11, 2014

    (Back for one more nut.)

    BTW — Am I the only one sensing that Bill’s brain cut out at #476? Seriously, listen….

    “I encountered this post (the first time I saw these questions) at 20140211T0540 (GMT). Would you care to elaborate on the “evasion” of which you speak, or are you just being disingenuous again? It’s now, just before I submit this comment, 20140211T0630…….. It’s now 0700. submitting”

    Seriously, his mensa-brain is like a super computer; it over heats whenever it runs too fast— (hee hee hee!) Listen again….

    “I encountered this post (the first time I saw these questions) at 20140211T0540 (GMT). Would you care to elaborate on the “evasion” of which you speak, or are you just being disingenuous again? It’s now, just before I submit this comment, 20140211T0630…….. It’s now 0700. submitting”

    (Hee hee hee!!) Can we get a tech guy from IT to repair his fan…..

    “I encountered this post (the first time I saw these questions) at 20140211T0540 (GMT). Would you care to elaborate on the “evasion” of which you speak, or are you just being disingenuous again? It’s now, just before I submit this comment, 20140211T0630…….. It’s now 0700. submitting”

    HAAA!!!!!

  98. #99 JGC
    February 11, 2014

    A product that can often cause a serious permanent disability — autism– in 1 in 50 kids, plus other previously noted adverse effects — ADHD, SIDS, learning disability, asthma, diabetes, allergies, cancers, and so on — is something to be shun.

    And your evidence that routine childhood vaccination causes autism in one out of every 50 children immunized, or ‘often’ causes ADHD, SIDS, asthma, diabetes, etc., would be…what exactly, greg?

    Oh–that’s right: you don’t have any.

    This isn’t a trivial observation, greg-it’s your entire argument failing from the word go. Come back to us when you’re ready to identify such evidence. Until then you’re wasting bandwidth that could more productively be used to spam pictures of cats and unicorns.

  99. #100 lilady
    February 11, 2014

    It’s the Flying Monkey Squad’s attack on Wikipedia, folks:

    “I just posted the following after the first paragraph of the Andrew Wakefield Wikipedia page:

    “The Wiki entry on Andrew Wakefield has a pharmaceutical Praetorian guard surrounding it preventing it from ever being corrected.”

    Pleased to say it lasted about 20 seconds.

    The following was the response that came up:
    Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a message letting you know that one or more of your recent edits to Andrew Wakefield has been undone by an automated computer program called ClueBot NG.

    ClueBot NG makes very few mistakes, but it does happen. If you believe the change you made was constructive, please read about it, report it here, remove this message from your talk page, and then make the edit again.

    Posted by: Aussie Dad | February 11, 2014 at 05:26 AM”

  100. #101 Orac
    February 11, 2014

    These idiots really have no clue how Wikipedia works, do they?

  101. #102 Dorit
    February 11, 2014

    Oh, they know exactly how it works. It’s a conspiracy. If pharma doesn’t like it, it doesn’t go up.

  102. #103 TBruce
    February 11, 2014

    Greggles@498:

    WTF is this deranged shite?

  103. #104 Narad
    February 11, 2014

    (Back for one more nut demonstration that I am profoundly stupid.)

    Do you know what a POSIX-compliant system thinks Februay 11, 2014, 0540 UTC is, Gerg? 1392097200.

  104. #105 Dorit
    February 11, 2014

    From AoA: “Can’t help wondering
    1.Can Wikipedia be sued?(I’m guessing yes, and though I’m not a lawyer, am wondering if it might only take a stiff letter from an interested parties lawyer to make inaccurate stuff get taken off …)
    Also wondering
    2. Can the people who made any unfounded or inaccurate edits about living persons be sued?
    Don’t think most of the Wikipedia editors are anonymous.”

    Not for talking about Andrew Wakefield, unless he can prove that the content was untrue and that there was malice. But given his past record, I’m sure he’d be happy to give it a go.

    You have to admire their sincere devotion to free speech.

  105. #106 Narad
    February 11, 2014

    Posted by: Aussie Dad | February 11, 2014 at 05:26 AM

    It’s cute that “Aussie Dad” transformed into “Zackiegirl25” for this effort.

  106. #107 Amanda
    February 11, 2014

    Slightly off topic, but does anyone have a link to some solid arguments against Dr. Tetyana Obukhanych? I’m trying to help my boyfriend convince his ex to vaccinate their child, and this was one of the links she sent him:

    http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/06/13/interview-with-phd-immunologist-dr-tetyana-obukhanych-by-catherine-frompovich/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+vaccinationcouncil+%28International+Medical+Council+on+Vaccination%29

    I’ve googled a bit and nothing is jumping out at me, save one blog post that was surely not convincing enough for the ex.

    Any help would be much appreciated!

  107. #108 squirrelelite
    February 11, 2014

    @Amanda
    Anti-vaccination cranks are hardly off-topic at RI and certainly not in this thread.

    I gave your link a quick skim and then did a Pubmed search which showed an Obukhanych TV as author (mostly co-author) which seem to be in the area of how vaccination produces memory B cells. (Sorry, that’s way beyond my biological knowledge.)

    But, anyway, what they seem to show is that vaccines do produce an immune response!

    I also saw her listed for 6 papers while working at Howard Hughes Medical Institute from 2002-2006.

    Some time after that, she apparently decided to jump the shark and start writing her own books like the one in your link and tell people that natural immunity (get the disease and then you’re immune to it) is better than vaccine acquired immunity.

    In other words it’s better to get sick and risk the possible side effects like blindness, deafness, brain damage from encephalitis and death, than it is to get vaccinated and avoid the disease in the first place (and make it less likely that you’ll pass it on to others).

    I’ll offer a couple quotes that show how she likes to toss around beliefs and questions instead of real evidence for her claims.

    Quote 1 —

    I believe that the exposure to yeast, egg, animal, or human proteins in the context of immunogenic (antibody producing) stimuli has the potential to result in sensitization to these proteins or even to break human immunologic tolerance to “self.” The latter is especially relevant to infants, since their immune system is only starting to make the distinction between “self” and “foreign.”

    In other words, her belief (not evidence) and worry about the potential for patients to get sensitized (again not demonstrated by test results) are sufficient reason not to vaccinate.
    I forget which one, but at least one major vaccine which is grown in egg has been tested and shown to be safe to administer even to patients who are already sensitive to eggs.

    What kind of protection can we expect from vaccines, if not life-long immunity?

    For live attenuated viral vaccines against communicable diseases, we can expect a very short-term protection (3-5 years). This estimate is indirect and comes from the statistical analysis of vaccination timing relative to the disease occurrence in vaccinated individuals. This is the only empirical evidence we have for the average duration of protection for certain vaccines.

    In fact, many vaccines offer protection for much longer than 3-5 years and we have plenty of data to support that. Those data are the basis for CDC recommendations on how often to get re-immunized with a booster shot.

    Another example of her “just get the disease and suffer” attitude is here:

    http://www.examiner.com/article/measles-are-marvelous-phd-immunologist-dr-tetyana-obukhanych-explains-why

  108. #109 squirrelelite
    February 11, 2014

    And, Amanda, I suggest you read Dr Hall’s blog from today which was linked on another blog thread at this site.
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/how-to-think/#more-30239

    It also discusses Melanie’s Marvelous Measles which Dr Obukhanych seems to like.

  109. #110 herr doktor bimler
    February 11, 2014

    “I just posted the following after the first paragraph of the Andrew Wakefield Wikipedia page:
    “The Wiki entry on Andrew Wakefield has a pharmaceutical Praetorian guard surrounding it preventing it from ever being corrected.”

    It’s a free Internet. The software is available. Rather than try to coopt and subvert a free resource produced by a network of volunteers, there’s nothing stopping them from setting up their own rival Antivaxopedia.

  110. #111 Amanda
    February 11, 2014

    I absolutely will, thank you so much, squirrelelite!

  111. #112 lilady
    February 11, 2014

    The anti-vax contingent could always start up their own ‘pedia site.

    My suggestion would be IrrationalWiki:

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-vaccination_movement

  112. #113 Shay
    February 11, 2014

    I’m kind of liking the mental image of me as a Praetorian Guard (my swordsmanship’s kind of rusty, but I can still do bad things to people with the hilt). Do we get that bronze helmet with the long scarlet horsetail-thingy?

  113. #114 squirrelelite
    February 11, 2014

    You’re welcome, Amanda.
    It does look like a great book and should be fun to read, as well.

  114. #115 Krebiozen
    February 11, 2014

    Am I the only one sensing that Bill’s brain cut out at #476?

    Looks like Greg caught sight of himself in a mirror and mistook his reflection for a baboon. Again.

  115. #116 Dorit
    February 11, 2014

    Comment about my comment above: anyone can sue for anything. But Andrew Wakefield should not be able to win such a suit.

  116. #117 Shay
    February 11, 2014

    Wakefield knows better than to sue Wikipedia and I think his fangirls would have trouble establishing standing (if that’s the word I’m looking for). Pity, though. It would be fun to watch.

  117. #118 Dorit
    February 11, 2014

    “Wakefield knows better than to sue Wikipedia ” Not so sure. He sued BMJ.

  118. #119 Denice Walter
    February 11, 2014

    @ Dorit:

    If I may consult your expertise:
    how do you think that the Texas case is going?

  119. #120 Dorit
    February 11, 2014

    Andrew Wakefield filed additional documents on January 23. If you’re asking when the decision would come down, I have no idea. If you’re asking how the court would decide, I’d expect it to uphold the lower court’s position – but there are no guarantees with a court.

    Even if Andrew Wakefield wins on jurisdiction, his suit should not hold on the merits. He’s a public figure, and he’d have to prove untruth and malice.

  120. #121 Narad
    February 11, 2014

    Even if Andrew Wakefield wins on jurisdiction, his suit should not hold on the merits. He’s a public figure, and he’d have to prove untruth and malice.

    I’d add that this would happen more or less immediately if Wakefraud wins the appeal, because then the anti-SLAPP is reached, which he really, really does not want to happen.

    Wakefraud’s succeeding in the appeal is absolutely the best possible outcome for those who only have to pay for popcorn instead of lawyers and would enjoy watching him publicly spit-roasted.

  121. #122 Narad
    February 11, 2014

    Slightly off topic, but does anyone have a link to some solid arguments against Dr. Tetyana Obukhanych?I’m trying to help my boyfriend convince his ex to vaccinate their child, and this was one of the links she sent him

    OK: “Nevertheless, because there is a common misconception that vaccines also confer immunity, it is sometimes necessary to use a qualifier ‘natural,’ when referring to immunity, to distinguish it from vaccine-based protection.”

    The ex thus has no grounds to object to tetanus immunization.

    Once this is settled, it’s merely a matter of disassembly, brick by brick: She is SOL on pertussis, which produces unremarkable “natural immunity,” so why bother contracting the disease? Hib? Not especially. Pneumococcal disease? Looks like “natural immunity” by individual serotype only. Measles? Hep B? Provide some actual evidence that the vaccine-induced immunity isn’t lifelong. You know, like where all the older vaccinated adults are with the illness. Varicella? I contracted it as an adult from someone whose “permanent immunity” after the childhood bout was so naturaliciously perfect that he contracted and spread it all over again. Etc.

  122. #123 Bill Price
    February 11, 2014

    GreggyPoo, #498, February 11, 2014

    (Back for one more nut.)
    BTW — Am I the only one sensing that Bill’s brain cut out at #476? Seriously, listen….
    “I encountered this post (the first time I saw these questions) at 20140211T0540 (GMT). Would you care to elaborate on the “evasion” of which you speak, or are you just being disingenuous again? It’s now, just before I submit this comment, 20140211T0630…….. It’s now 0700. submitting”
    Seriously, his mensa-brain is like a super computer; it over heats whenever it runs too fast— (hee hee hee!) Listen again….
    [quote repetition deleted]
    (Hee hee hee!!) Can we get a tech guy from IT to repair his fan…..
    [quote repetition deleted]
    HAAA!!!!!

    I conjecture from this that Greg doesn’t believe in International Standards, or at least IS8601 specifically. That’s why he lacks the knowledge thereof, and refuses to consider evidence (even Wikipedia articles) that might enlighten him. Oh, that’s right: the idea of ‘enlightenment’ is anathema to his Dark-Ages episteme.
    I notice, also, that Greggypoo doesn’t bother addressing the substantive issues of my #476 even the issue he quotes. Perhaps they’re too far above his chosen DK level, or too embarrassing to mention, so he chooses (as usual for the Pro-VPD crowd in general and Greggypoo in particular) to sidetrack with invented, irrelevant personal insults.

  123. #124 Old Rockin' Dave
    February 12, 2014

    “Who really believes that we have always had all these autistics, and we are just starting to notice them?”
    So in 1943, when Leo Kanner in the US and Hans Asperger in Austria independently identified syndromes in children that they labeled “autism”, they were really shilling for vaccines that wouldn’t exist for decades.
    The Gregger rattles once again.

  124. #125 Amanda
    February 12, 2014

    Thank you, Narad! What you wrote really got through to my partner. Much appreciated.

  125. #126 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    February 12, 2014

    Greg, if you’re reading…
    Stick the flounce this time.

  126. #127 notation
    February 12, 2014

    Who is the poster “courage and hope” ( I think that’s the moniker, but I’m tired and it’s late, so I could be wrong). She posted on PBS’s site and is having a fit because some of her comments were removed and she didn’t care for mine.

  127. #128 herr doktor bimler
    February 12, 2014

    So in 1943, when Leo Kanner in the US and Hans Asperger in Austria independently identified syndromes in children that they labeled “autism”, they were really shilling for vaccines that wouldn’t exist for decades.

    Never mind those late-comers, a certain Dr Down (who has a syndrome named after him) described an identical clinical picture of autism in his 1887 lectures.
    There will always be these numpties insisting that nothing could possibly have happened before they were born, otherwise they would have known about it.

  128. #129 Narad
    February 12, 2014

    Who is the poster “courage and hope”

    Christina Waldman. See above.

  129. #130 dingo199
    February 12, 2014

    @Amanda,
    Just to expand on Narad’s excellent precis of the “problem” of natural immunity from disease.
    To recap, Measles vaccine and Hep B vaccine look like they induce lifelong immunity, and that against the other live viruses like rubella, varicella and mumps is pretty durable too.
    Natural infections like pertussis do not induce lifelong immunity; it is barely better than that induced by vaccine.
    Tetanus does not induce any natural immunity; after one attack you are vulnerable all over again, and again, and again… (as you also are following typhoid infection, btw). Varicella doesn’t induce permanent “immunity” anyhow in one sense; what you gain is an infection that then lies dormant in your nervous system, ready to re-emerge later in life as nasty shingles. You can boost immunity against varicella which keeps the virus dormant – you can do this through either natural exposure to your kids/grandkids who have chickenpox, or through zoster vaccine. As a parent, I’d prefer the moral high ground here and suggest that most of us would be more comfortable getting a vaccine in late middleage rather than requiring our offspring or offspring’s offspring to go and get an unpleasant disease, just so they can give us a natural immune booster by exposing us to fresh chickenpox. And what if the disease is something like Hep B? “Recovery” doesn’t imply jolly times – 5-10% become carriers (infecting others) and get chronic liver disease, cirrhosis and liver cancer. Yeah, that’s a doozy price to pay for the “benefit” of gaining “natural immunity” and not being able to catch the disease again!

    And I can never understand the imperative to gain “natural immunity” by getting the disease anyhow – if the disease is so bad that you really want to gain protection against it, why actually go and get the damn thing in the first place, just to gain immunity against “catching the disease again”? Paradoxical, irrational, illogical and plain stupid thinking, seeing as how the diseases carry great risk in themselves for many.

    Ultimately, it’s a risk-benefit thing. The risks from vaccines are orders of magnitude less than the risks from the diseases. now I know some say that if they keep vigilant,, they won’t be exposed to disease, which may be something that is true if you stay in a community with high vaccination rates and near zero disease prevalence, but with more and more people choosing not to vaccinate the risks of exposure are rising. Look at the situation in Europe, where MMR vaccination is often so low that there are major outbreaks (up to 30,000 cases per year, with as many as 29 deaths back in 2011 I recall). That scenario could well be USA in a few years. If your ex’s kids don’t get exposed to some of these diseases now, they probably will be. And illnesses like varicella can be worse in adults, and things like mumps can cause orchitis/oophoritis in adults, which cann cause infertility. Plenty good reasons to vaccinate, imho.

  130. #131 Amanda
    February 12, 2014

    dingo199 – Excellent points, explained in a very readable, concise manner, thank you very much! I so appreciate your time and energies phrasing things in way I am not quite capable of (this applies to everyone who responded).

    Also, motivation for me to get my boosters when I’m done chemo!

    Stupid question, but I heard it somewhere and want to be sure of the correct answer… Will I need to redo vaccinations after chemo anyway?

  131. #132 Amanda
    February 12, 2014

    Dang, I hate it when I let bad grammar slip through.

  132. #133 lilady
    February 12, 2014

    Amanda: Perhaps this will help (starting on page 19)…ACIP General Recommendations on Vaccinations.

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/rr/rr6002.pdf

  133. #134 notation
    February 12, 2014

    #529 Ah, thank you, Narad/.

    I know this is generally about childhood immunizations, but I just saw this on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/11/health/flu-miscarriage-death/index.html#comment-1240069069

    Absolutely tragic.

  134. #135 dingo199
    February 12, 2014

    @Amanda,
    you could do worse than look at Dorit Reiss’s articles at shot of prevention:
    http://shotofprevention.com/2014/02/11/the-rights-of-the-unvaccinated-child-the-legal-framework/#comments

  135. #136 TClark
    February 12, 2014

    I don’t understand…A study showed that 81 percent of 2010 California whooping cough cases in people under the age of 18 occurred in those who were fully up to date on the whooping cough vaccine. Eleven percent had received at least one shot, but not the entire recommended series, and only eight percent of those stricken were unvaccinated.
    If they were vaccinated, then why didn’t it stop them from getting whooping cough? Clearly the vaccine likely provides very little, if any, protection from the disease. In fact, the research suggests those who are fully vaccinated may in fact be more likely to get the disease than unvaccinated populations.

  136. #137 Politicalguineapig
    February 12, 2014

    TClark: Only because there are more vaccinated kids, despite your fellow travelers’ crusades.

  137. #138 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    February 13, 2014

    TClark:

    A study showed that 81 percent of 2010 California whooping cough cases in people under the age of 18 occurred in those who were fully up to date on the whooping cough vaccine. Eleven percent had received at least one shot, but not the entire recommended series, and only eight percent of those stricken were unvaccinated.

    Source for this study, please, although I suspect it’s somethinf like Null, Mercola, TMR or AoA.

    Clearly the vaccine likely provides very little, if any, protection from the disease. In fact, the research suggests those who are fully vaccinated may in fact be more likely to get the disease than unvaccinated populations

    Wrong.
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
    You’re wrong. According to this study, the unvaccinated were 8 times more likely than the vaccinated to contract pertussis. The reason that this is possible when (according to you) 81% of victims were fully vaccinated and 11% had received one shot was simply because well over 90% of people were fully vaccinated.

  138. #139 herr doktor bimler
    February 13, 2014

    Source for this study, please, although I suspect it’s somethinf like Null, Mercola, TMR or AoA.

    TClark is indeed copy-paste-spamming his/her comment unchanged from Mercola.

  139. #140 Julian Frost
    February 13, 2014

    @hdb: nice catch.

  140. #141 Greg
    February 13, 2014

    Julian what’s wrong with you??

    The study that you cited at #538 to counter TClark’s claim of a study finding a greater vaxxed rate for 2010 California whooping cough cases did no such thing. The study you linked merely examined whether the new DTaP vaccine provides better protection that the old DTwP. And, it found the old DTwP to be more effective.

    God! — you guys appear to be sinking to blatant dishonesty!

  141. #142 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 13, 2014

    What’s especially amusing to me is that at least some of Mercola’s own audience, primed to believe his message, called him out on that attempted fast one:

    I am a non-vaxer, so don’t jump on me when I tell you that the link to this article has an EXTREMELY misleading title. The link says the vaccination for pertussis makes you 10x more likely to get the disease. That is not supported in ANY WAY by the article. Just because 80% of the people who GET the disease are vaccinated DOESN’T mean that the vaccination makes you more likely to get the disease. You have to look at percentages of the population in order to determine the “likelihood” of getting the diseases. We need to know what percentage of the population is vaccinated vs. unvaccinated. If only the unvaccinated make up less than 20% of the population (and that seems pretty likely), then you are still more likely to get the disease if you are unvaccinated than if you are vaccinated. I’m all for articles pointing out the dangers of vaccination, but I like them to tell the truth.

  142. #143 Helianthus
    February 13, 2014

    I’m all for articles pointing out the dangers of vaccination, but I like them to tell the truth.

    You and us both, brother.

  143. #144 Julian Frost
    February 13, 2014

    Greg, did you read the abstract or the full article?

  144. #145 Jeff1971
    February 13, 2014

    Gleg would not know what “the abstract” meant.

  145. #146 squirrelelite
    February 13, 2014

    @Julian,
    Unfortunately, only the abstract is available online unless you want to purchase it or have a subscription or institutional access. Of course, Greg is a medical professional so this should be no problem 😉

    For other references:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24082000

    A better ref is:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23188029

    Among cases and controls, 53 (7.8%) and 19 (0.9%) had not received any pertussis-containing vaccines, respectively. Compared with controls, children with pertussis had a lower odds of having received all 5 doses of DTaP (OR, 0.11; 95% CI, 0.06-0.21 [estimated VE, 88.7%; 95% CI, 79.4%-93.8%]). When children were categorized by time since completion of the DTaP series, using an unvaccinated reference group, children with pertussis compared with controls were less likely to have received their fifth dose within the prior 12 months (19 [2.8%] vs 354 [17.6%], respectively; OR, 0.02; 95% CI, 0.01-0.04 [estimated VE, 98.1%; 95% CI, 96.1%-99.1%]). This association was evident with longer time since vaccination, with ORs increasing with time since the fifth dose. At 60 months or longer (n = 231 cases [33.9%] and n = 288 controls [14.3%]), the OR was 0.29 (95% CI, 0.15-0.54 [estimated VE, 71.2%; 95% CI, 45.8%-84.8%]). Accordingly, the estimated VE declined each year after receipt of the fifth dose of DTaP.

    In other words, how well the vaccine protects against pertussis declines over a five year period after completing the series. This is why regular boosters are recommended. I think I got my last one about 3 years ago.

    During the first year after completing the series, vaccinated children are 50 times less likely to get pertussis than non-vaccinated. After 5 years, this declines to a little more than 3 times less likely.

  146. #147 Greg
    February 13, 2014

    @Julian
    “Greg, did you read the abstract, or the full study”?

    The link that you provided did not connect me to the full study. I also found another link and all it mentioned was a study comparing teenagers given the DTaP and DTwP vaccines. No mention was made about unvaccinated cases. Can you be so kind as to provide a link to the full study? Also, please quote where it states that,

    “the unvaccinated were 8 times more likely than the vaccinated to contract pertussis.”

  147. #148 Krebiozen
    February 13, 2014

    Clearly the vaccine likely provides very little, if any, protection from the disease. In fact, the research suggests those who are fully vaccinated may in fact be more likely to get the disease than unvaccinated populations.

    I have seen this foolish conclusion corrected so many times it’s hard to believe there is anyone left that still fails to understand why it’s wrong. Even Greg must be able to understand why this isn’t true (I wouldn’t bet on it though).

    Most people who suffer head injuries in car crashes were wearing seat belts, therefore seat belts don’t prevent head injuries? More than 90% of people who get cancer are right-handed, therefore being right-handed causes cancer?

    See the problem?

  148. #149 notation
    February 13, 2014

    I doubt Dreg DOES “see the problem.”

  149. #150 Narad
    February 13, 2014

    For other references

    Or, commonly, here (14 times higher, capturing concentration), or here (23 times higher).

  150. #151 Julian Frost
    February 13, 2014

    Greg:

    Can you be so kind as to provide a link to the full study?

    Since I’m not a medical professional and I don’t have the money, no. But please look at the links that squirrelelite and Narad so kindly provided (thank you both).

  151. #152 Narad
    February 13, 2014

    Can you be so kind as to provide a link to the full study?

    You have a link to the full study. Oh, wait, you mean you want somebody to steal it for you?

    I don’t have access to it from here, so I don’t know whether it was a miscitation or not. I’m certainly not going to walk 20 minutes each way to the library in the slush to find out for your sake, however. Both of the items I provided above have open-access full text.

  152. #153 TClark
    February 13, 2014

    So many nasty commentators…you people act like grade school kids working on a group science project.
    You try to discredit the actual facts with pharmaceutical spin and then scoff at me for not believing an industry that puts profits before people? Yea, I’m the one who needs to my head examined…but I guess if I wait long enough, they’ll come up with a vaccine for that. With over 300 vaccines in the works, I can’t wait to see what nonsense they can convince the overly brainwashed to have stuck in their arm. The original article appeared April 3, Reuters Health, which stated that the vaccines didn’t work and recommended increasing the schedule. Gee, what a great idea.

    “Conclusions. Our data suggests that the current schedule of acellular pertussis vaccine doses is insufficient to prevent outbreaks of pertussis. We noted a markedly increased rate of disease from ages 8–12 years, proportionate to the interval since the last scheduled vaccine. Stable rates of testing ruled out selection bias. The possibility of earlier or more numerous booster doses of acellular pertussis vaccine either as part of routine immunization or for outbreak control should be entertained.” (cid.oxfordjournals.org/…/1730)

    The information regarding the outbreak in CA happened and the people who suffered the most were the ones vaccinated, according to a study you don’t agree with…I get it, ridicule and degrade anyone who doesn’t hold your pharmaceutical based research to heart…as if they have a track record of transparency, integrity or morals? No matter how you want to dress it up to appease your conscience, without vaccinations, pediatricians probably wouldn’t have job…and as far as mercola, goes…you are talking about the number one health newsletter online. i wonder why? Could it be the failure of the current allopathic model, designed to cure symptoms (and that they don’t even do well) and ignore the actual cause, – sending people to find an alternative to petrol based pharmaceuticals? Can’t make a profit if everyone is healthy…speaking of which, how do we measure the efficacy of our current health system? It’s not
    doing so well. People are more sick today then ever. Number one killer of children is cancer? right after suicide (thanks to those SSRIs) and everyone carries on like we’re winning?

    One study suggests the number is 1 out of every 300 that go into the hospital don’t make it. And because you wouldn’t believe me anyway, check out where we land on the infant mortality list in the industrial world…but I got a feeling you’ll spin that too.

    Warning: this next bit of info will be copy and paste…for those easily offended, overt your eyes.
    A new survey of 7724 participants shows unvaccinated children are healthier and have vastly fewer chronic conditions than the vaccinated.
    UPDATE 8 March 2012:
    The survey is continually updated so we recommend you visit the source site [links below] if you want to see the updated data. There is also a summary chart comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated children for various conditions on the site on the page found here. Today numbers in the survey are 10921 participants.
    What follows is the original text of this post on 26th August 2011.
    You can find the up-to-date results of illnesses and diseases in unvaccinated children here in the results of the survey.
    Full details of the survey appear below with graphs. The results are subdivided into different age groups. Information about country, gender, age, age distribution, breastfeeding, preferred treatment can be found here.
    This is excellent work from an independent source. The survey is conducted by http://www.impfschaden.info and the English version http://www.vaccineinjury.info. The survey is originally published here The Health of Unvaccinated Children, Survey Results.
    About twenty years ago in 1992 a survey by the New Zealand Immunisation Awareness Society found also that unvaccinated children are healthier than the vaccinated: Unvaccinated Children Are Healthier.
    It is interesting neither the US National Institutes of Health [US$30.5 billion annual budget on medical research] nor the US Centers for Disease Control [US$11 billion budget annually] could find the time or money to fund this kind of research but instead waste US tax dollars on a great deal of pointless medical research and promotion of iatrogenic [man made] disease causing agents [modern drug company “treatments”]. Hardly surprising then that an extraordinary 115 page review was published in June 2007 by the US Senate on the US Centers for Disease Control:-
    A review of how an agency tasked with fighting and preventing disease has spent hundreds of millions of tax dollars for failed prevention efforts, international junkets, and lavish facilities, but cannot demonstrate it is controlling disease.” “CDC OFF CENTER“- The United States Senate Subcommittee on Federal Financial Management, Government Information and International Security, Minority Office , Under the Direction of Senator Tom Coburn, Ranking Minority Member, June 2007.
    Oddly the anti-vaccine-safety lobby not only will not carry out studies of the health of unvaccinated children but they just don’t want the studies done. Which should be a strange thing because they all insist the vaccines are safe and effective. But in the CHS article linked at the end of this paragraph we show they actively sabotage this kind of work for sport at the expense of vaccine injured children. This shows anti-vaccine-safety blogger Dr David Gorski’s self-admitted “minions” openly boasting on his blog about sabotaging this new study. That is a fraud by these cyber thugs and bullies on all the parents who provided genuine information and tells you all you need to know about the anti-vaccine-safety lobby. These animals are nasty, just nasty [Text added 2nd Sept 2011 @1240 EDT & updated 20 Sept 2011 @ 06:40 EDT]:- Unvaccinated Kids Healthier Study – Gorski & His Internet Bullies Admit Sabotage

    How many here work for Gorski?

  153. #154 Narad
    February 13, 2014

    You know what? I’m willing to go out on a limb and suggest that it’s possible that Klein, Bartlett, Fireman, Rowhani-Rahbar, & Baxter should actually be, or might as well be replaced with, Klein, Bartlett, Rohwhani-Rahbar, Fireman, & Baxter, here, which gets you the 8-fold decrease (i.e., closer to unvaccinated) from peak immunity to the gap at 10–11 years.

  154. #155 notation
    February 13, 2014

    “People are more sick today then ever.’

    Without including illnesses attributable to “lifestyle,” prove this is true. Cite your sources.

  155. #156 notation
    February 13, 2014

    And it’s ‘avert your eyes,’ not “overt.”

  156. #157 notation
    February 13, 2014

    “check out where we land on the infant mortality list in the industrial world”

    Maybe YOU should check out just how other countries measure infant mortality. Here’s a clue: they don’t do it the way we do. Our measures are far less forgiving than theirs.

  157. #158 Khani
    February 13, 2014

    #555 Oh, I’m guessing that’s actually true.

    Because before they weren’t sick at all with those illnesses–they were dead. Now that they don’t die, they survive to get sick.

    That’s a good thing.

  158. #159 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 13, 2014

    You try to discredit the actual facts with pharmaceutical spin and then scoff at me for not believing an industry that puts profits before people?

    No, TClark, we debunked the mathematically incorrect conclusion you drew from the facts (or more precisely, the incorrect conclusion that Joseph Mercola drew from the facts and that you then plagiarized.)

    If I told you that I’d made a list of all those who had contracted pertussis and found that vanishingly few of them had polydactyly (extra fingers or toes), would you conclude from that that NOT having extra fingers or toes (‘normaldactyly’, as it were) must be a huge risk factor for pertussis? Look at the statistics! Over 99% of pertussis outbreak victims had five fingers on each hand and five toes on each foot! Doesn’t that PROVE that normaldactyly must be a huge risk factor for pertussis??

    Of course it doesn’t. A figure like “X% of the population that fell victim to the outbreak had trait Y”, where “Y” is “vaccinated” or “unvaccinated” or “polydactyl”, tells us nothing by itself; only when you compare it with how prevalent that trait is in the general population does it give us any information.

    So tell us – what percentage of the population is completely unvaccinated against pertussis? Is it 7%? Is it 4%? 1%? If it’s anything less than 8%, that’s indicating that being unvaccinated against pertussis is a big risk factor. If someone showed us charity statistics that said “this group makes up only 1% of the population, yet they contributed 8% of the charitable donations this year”, we’d say “wow, that group is really generous!” Well, guess what? The unvaccinated segment of the population is very “generous” when it comes to giving outbreaks their victims, but it’s not a generosity that does anyone any good.

    The funny thing is that several of Mercola’s readers pointed out his elementary error in the comments, years before you plagiarized his error. Too bad you didn’t do more reading.

  159. #160 Narad
    February 13, 2014

    The original article appeared April 3, Reuters Health

    It’s cute that you couldn’t even bother to hork up the year for this evasion. (Even better, Mercola tries to pass off press-release regurgitators “Science Daily” as a credible source.) Anyway, no. You weren’t referring to a wire story, which would have been bad enough of itself, you were plagiariazing Mercola.

    TClark:

    “I don’t understand…A study showed that 81 percent of 2010 California whooping cough cases in people under the age of 18 occurred in those who were fully up to date on the whooping cough vaccine. Eleven percent had received at least one shot, but not the entire recommended series, and only eight percent of those stricken were unvaccinated.
    If they were vaccinated, then why didn’t it stop them from getting whooping cough? Clearly the vaccine likely provides very little, if any, protection from the disease. In fact, the research suggests those who are fully vaccinated may in fact be more likely to get the disease than unvaccinated populations.”

    Mercola:

    In fact, the study showed that 81 percent of 2010 California whooping cough cases in people under the age of 18 occurred in those who were fully up to date on the whooping cough vaccine. Eleven percent had received at least one shot, but not the entire recommended series, and only eight percent of those stricken were unvaccinated.

    According to the authors[3]:

    ‘This first detailed analysis of a recent North American pertussis outbreak found widespread disease among fully vaccinated older children. Starting approximately three years after prior vaccine dose, attack rates markedly increased, suggesting inadequate protection or durability from the acellular vaccine.’ [Emphasis mine]

    The pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine is included as a component in ‘combination’ shots that include tetanus and diphtheria (DPT, DTaP, Tdap) and may also include polio, hepatitis B, and/or Haemophilus Influenza B (Hib). CDC data shows 84 percent of children under the age of three have received at least FOUR DTaP shots—which is the acellular pertussis vaccine that was approved in the United States in 1996—yet, despite this high vaccination rate, whooping cough still keeps circulating among both the vaccinated and unvaccinated.

    So, as clearly evidenced in this study, the vaccine likely provides very little, if any, protection from the disease. In fact, the research suggests those who are fully vaccinated may in fact be more likely to get the disease than unvaccinated populations.”

    It’s OK, you’re not the only one.

    Now, please identify where the Reuters item makes the profoundly boneheaded assertion in the final sentence.

  160. #161 novalox
    February 13, 2014

    @tclark

    Ah yes, the old pharma shill gambit in your silly little rant, a sure sign that you have no argument to speak of.

  161. #162 Narad
    February 13, 2014

    A new survey of 7724 participants shows unvaccinated children are healthier and have vastly fewer chronic conditions than the vaccinated.

    Perhaps you tried the search function before ordering the extra bowl of copypasta.

  162. #163 Narad
    February 13, 2014

    ^ “should have tried”

  163. #164 TClark
    February 13, 2014

    I don’t know how anyone can say the state of our health in this country is doing great. Lifestyle is just one part of the equation…diabetes is off the charts, depression, digestive issues, neurological problems, Alzheimer is becoming the norm after 72, autism has gone from almost non existent to 1 out of whatever the number happens to be this month…because the number steadily declines and no body is actually addressing the issue, whether vaccines cause the problem or not.
    The sick business is doing great in the US.

    It’s depressing to look too closely at the U.S. health indicators. It’s pretty well known that our headline health figures, like life expectancy and infant mortality, are among the rich world’s worst, and the OECD confirms that impression. Of the 30 countries for which the OECD reports data, the U.S. comes in 24th in life expectancy, with poorer countries behind it. And of the same 30 countries, the U.S.has the sixth-highest incidence of low birthweight among newborns, and the third-highest level of infant mortality; again, it’s mostly poor countries like Mexico and Turkey that have more painful figures.
    Americans may be champs in the horizontal dimension, but we’re not doing so well on the vertical. The U.S. is about the only country in the OECD in which people in their early 20s aren’t taller than those in their late 40s—a distinction that cannot be explained by the immigration to the U.S. of short people. No, it’s mostly about childhood nutrition, or lack of it.

    And of the ten countries for which the OECD has data, Americans have the most severe psychological problems, with nearly half experiencing some form of mental illness during their lifetimes—and over a quarter in any given year. Our mental disorders tend to be more severe, as well; though France is pretty high up in the rankings, three times as many disorders are classified as mild rather than severe; the two categories are almost equal in the U.S. And the U.S. leads in all brands of mental problems—anxiety, mood, substance abuse, and impulse control.
    But it’s not just those basics. Americans are the world’s fattest people, which despite the best efforts of the fat acceptance lobby, is not something that comports with a high degree of physical or social health. Though the association isn’t statistically airtight, there is a tendency for countries with high poverty rates to have obese populations; this is certainly true for Mexico and the U.S., if not for Japan or Turkey.
    http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Awfulness.html

    Each year, about one million infants around the world die on the same day they’re born. That figure includes about 11,300 U.S. babies — the highest first-day infant mortality rate of any other country in the industrialized world, according to a new report from Save the Children. http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/05/07/1973341/us-infant-mortality-rate/

    and then we have this copy and paste…
    German study released in September 2011 of about 8000 UNVACCINATED children, newborn to 19 years, show vaccinated children have more than twice the diseases and disorders than unvaccinated children.
    The results are presented in the bar chart below; the complete data and study results are here. http://www.vaccineinjury.info/vaccinations-in-general/health-unvaccinated-children/survey-results-illnesses.html

    I know this might be hard to believe, but the US does not lead the world in anything anymore but debt and killing in wars.

    The US is NOT the leader in health care in the modern world.
    In fact, the US is not even in the Top Ten. According to the World Health Organization (WHO), the health care system in the US ranked 38th in the world in 2000. If you’re thinking that was over a decade ago, maybe we’re doing better now, think again.
    Americans DO NOT LIVE LONGER than people in many other advanced countries.
    Don’t trust UN figures? How about Bloomberg? According to a Bloomberg study of the most efficient health systems in the world, the US ranks 46th, just below Iran (oops!) and just above Serbia. http://www.opednews.com/articles/Sick-in-America-What-Toda-by-Thomas-Magstadt-Congress_Corporatocracy_Doctors_Drugs-131022-602.html

  164. #165 Narad
    February 13, 2014

    Oh, wow, it’s even better: The copy ‘n’ paste is from Clifford “Graph Boy” Miller (who actually shows up in the comments for a bit of barely decipherable babbling, along with Pattimmy, who may have been attempting to translate or something).

  165. #166 Chris,
    February 13, 2014

    Narad, that cut and paste just proves that TClark in unable to think for himself. Especially if he thinks a self-selected online survey by a homeopath is valid.

  166. #167 notation
    February 13, 2014

    From the CDC, Tclark: Key findings
    Data from the United States’ Linked Birth/Infant Death Data Set and the European Perinatal Health Report

    Infant mortality rates for preterm (less than 37 weeks of gestation) infants are lower in the United States than in most European countries; however, infant mortality rates for infants born at 37 weeks of gestation or more are higher in the United States than in most European countries.
    One in 8 births in the United States were born preterm, compared with 1 in 18 births in Ireland and Finland.
    If the United States had Sweden’s distribution of births by gestational age, nearly 8,000 infant deaths would be averted each year and the U.S. infant mortality rate would be one-third lower.
    The main cause of the United States’ high infant mortality rate when compared with Europe is the very high percentage of preterm births in the United States.

  167. #168 notation
    February 13, 2014

    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-02/uobc-irf021512.php

    Before you start yammering about infant mortality statistics, Clark, maybe you should read about them.

  168. #170 Militant Agnostic
    February 13, 2014

    Math is a creation of Big Pharma. WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!!!!

  169. #171 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 13, 2014

    I notice TClark thinks changing the subject will let him get away with anything. Have a false claim exposed, just throw up a new claim.

    Too bad we have a way to deal with that behavior. Anyone want to present an ultimatum question for our visitor?

  170. #172 Alain
    February 13, 2014

    Anyone want to present an ultimatum question for our visitor?

    I’m not up to it right now (trying to determine if I have Klinefelter Syndrome) but I will be able sometime either tomorrow or Thursday next week.

    Alain

  171. #173 Alain
    February 13, 2014

    I’m going to Montreal again Saturday to Wednesday. In fact, I’m trying to move there.

    Alain

  172. #174 herr doktor bimler
    February 13, 2014

    Alzheimer is becoming the norm after 72, autism has gone from almost non existent to 1 out of whatever the number happens to be this month

    Oh noes, the incidence of age-related dementia is increasing, what could be the cause?

  173. #175 Alain
    February 13, 2014

    Oh noes, the incidence of age-related dementia is increasing, what could be the cause?

    The fallacy off the 100%, assuming that the body work 100% until it drop to 0%.

    Alain

  174. #176 Narad
    February 14, 2014

    Don’t trust UN figures? How about Bloomberg?

    Could you learn to use quotation marks? Nobody’s interested in random “progressive” quote-blobs from dreck such as OpEdNews (which predictably recycles Mercola material simply by wrapping a frame around it).

  175. #177 Julian Frost
    February 14, 2014

    TClark @564:

    [Diagnoses of] autism has gone from almost non existent to 1 out of whatever the number happens to be this month…because the number steadily declines and no body is actually addressing the issue, whether vaccines cause the problem or not.

    Firstly, the most likely explanation for the increase in diagnosed cases is a combination of increased awareness, broadened criteria, diagnostic substitution and previous underdiagnosis. As to your claim that nobody is looking at it, wrong again. Finally, we have looked at whether vaccines cause autism. Multiple studies have been done, including one that looked at every child born in Denmark over a period of several years. None found any link.

  176. #178 Krebiozen
    February 14, 2014

    I don’t know how anyone can say the state of our health in this country is doing great. Lifestyle is just one part of the equation…

    Lifestyle is a major part of the problem. Obesity, lack of exercise, smoking, and excessive alcohol cause a very large proportion of the preventable ill-health and deaths in the developed world. If the US does have more health problems in some areas than other developed countries, it seems likely it is due to either lifestyle or to poorer healthcare in large numbers of people i.e. not enough of the conventional medical care that all the other countries use, not too much as TClark implies.

    The sick business is doing great in the US.

    We are seeing the same new health challenges in the rest of the developed world. People are living longer so we see more diseases of old age. The low-hanging fruit of infectious disease are almost gone, thanks to improvements in hygiene, vaccines and antibiotics. Now we have to deal with diseases that are far less common but more difficult to deal with, and progress is being made every day.

    Extraordinary breakthroughs in medicine have led to large increases in longevity and improvements in healthy active old age we have seen over the past century. How can anyone claim that conventional medicine has done the exact opposite when there is vast amounts of evidence to contradict it? It’s very weird.

    By the way, in regard to infant mortality, whether the figures for the US are correct or not, for developed countries the rate is currently between 2 and 7 deaths/1,000 live births. The variation depends largely on how the figure is arrived at, which differs from country to country as has been pointed out, and on premature birth rates, which have a number of different causes. The 2005 figure for the US was around 5, but in 1950 infant mortality in the US was greater than 30 deaths/1,000 live births, in 1980 it was 14.

    How can anyone possibly claim that things are getting worse? Even more extraordinary, how can they claim that this imaginary deterioration in health can be blamed on the same type of medicine that is used by the other countries he compares the US to?

  177. #179 Krebiozen
    February 14, 2014

    Similarly, how can anyone look at this:

    Our data suggests that the current schedule of acellular pertussis vaccine doses is insufficient to prevent outbreaks of pertussis. We noted a markedly increased rate of disease from ages 8–12 years, proportionate to the interval since the last scheduled vaccine.

    And conclude that the problem is too much vaccination, not too little? Someone who has never seen a child with whooping cough fighting for each breath, I’d wager.

    It really, really p!sses me off when people claim that those who support vaccination and other conventional medical interventions are too brainwashed or too stupid to understand what is going on, when they display a complete lack of critical thinking skills like this themselves. Do people like TClark really believe none of us read studies and think about this stuff?

  178. #180 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    February 14, 2014

    I’ve been thinking of something.
    DTaP and TDaP are both less effective than the original DTP triple jab. DTP was dropped because it was incorrectly believed to cause seizures, which were actually caused by Dravet’s Syndrome.
    Perhaps we should look at reintroducing the DTP.

  179. #181 Antaeus Feldspar
    February 14, 2014

    A follow-up to my earlier comment: I got a bit of time and followed back the links to the paper cited by Mercola as the source of his figures. On page 22, we see a nifty little table showing how the proportion of the population fully vaccinated (PPV) compares to the proportion of cases in the outbreak that were fully vaccinated (PCV), both for the entire studied age range and for the three studied sub-ranges.

    For the whole age range, the PPV was 90%. If vaccination did nothing to prevent against contracting the disease, the PCV should have also been 90%; if, as alleged by Mercola, vaccination increases chances of contracting against the disease, the PCV should also have been increased above 90%. But of course, the PCV was 81%, below 90%.

    Now, by contrast, the percentage of the population that was un- or under-vaccinated (call it PPU) was just 10%. But what was the PCU? It was almost twice the PPU, at 19%!

    A person would have to be wholly medically illiterate to conclude from this study that the vaccinated were more likely to contract the disease, when the data shows the clear opposite. Is Joe Mercola wholly medically illiterate? Or is he merely a cynical liar, who understands what the data shows but wants to conceal the truth from his customers – to prevent them from making an informed decision?

  180. #182 Krebiozen
    February 14, 2014

    Julian Frost,

    Perhaps we should look at reintroducing the DTP.

    Emphasizing vaccine safety over efficacy does seem to have made things worse in this case, doesn’t it? Of course it’s the people who complain the most about safety who are also the first to complain if efficacy isn’t as good as they want (i.e. 100%).

  181. #183 Julian Frost
    February 14, 2014

    Antaeus Feldspar:

    Or is he merely a cynical liar, who understands what the data shows but wants to conceal the truth from his customers – to prevent them from making an informed decision?

    I’m even more cynical than you. I think he’s a “true believer”. He’s convinced of the truth of what he says, and if the evidence contradicts him, he distorts it to fit with his preconceived notions.
    Krebiozen, true. The reason I raised it was because of the discussion, and because my soon to be 7 nephew went for his boosters this week. If a person does not have an adverse vaccine reaction for the first set of shots, it may be worth it to do it.

  182. #184 Shay
    February 14, 2014

    Alzheimer is becoming the norm after 72,

    That’s going to be news to the local RSVP coordinator.

  183. #185 Krebiozen
    February 14, 2014

    Julian,

    I sometimes wonder about the Urabe mumps component of MMR, which was abandoned by the UK (never used in the US) after increased rates of aseptic meningitis were seen, though it did seem to provoke a stronger immunity than the strain it was replaced by. I believe it is still used in some parts of the world, as mumps causes meningitis far more frequently than the Urabe vaccine.

    I’m also reminded of the tail-end of routine smallpox vaccination when, in the UK, a few deaths each year from vaccine reactions were considered acceptable collateral damage, even though most years there were no smallpox deaths at all. Times and attitudes have changed.

    BTW I visited Sid’s website earlier, and was amused to see he seems to have embraced the more casual attitudes to infectious diseases seen a few decades ago (measles is a mild disease), but not the tolerance of vaccine ADRs people used to have.

  184. #186 Narad
    February 14, 2014

    I visited Sid’s website earlier, and was amused to see he seems to have embraced the more casual attitudes to infectious diseases seen a few decades ago

    That’s because his fraudulent libertarianism requires by definition that he not be a freeloader, although it has an obvious blind spot regarding the fact that his activity has demonstrated a complete lack of monetary value on the free market. Does anyone know whether he has actually successfully reproduced?

  185. #187 Denice Walter
    February 14, 2014

    Narad: I can’t say exactly where ( but @ RI) or when but I vaguely recall hearing something about a daughter somewhere.

    -btw-I hope that the website being referenced is actually the Facebook page ( not THE website) ’cause that’s where all of the activity takes place (i.e. advice about avoiding vaccines, getting exemptions, finding simpatico doctors, alt med healing consults et al)

  186. #188 lilady
    February 15, 2014

    IIRC, Offal managed to post a fact-free rant against HPV vaccine and mentioned that he would not have his daughter immunized against human papillomavirus. Poor kid; stuck with an ignorant father.

  187. #189 Narad
    February 15, 2014

    Ah, how could I have forgotten this debacle, in which the any-day-now media mogul (1) steadfastly denies that a knowledge of algebra is necessary to understand anything related to vaccines, (2) promptly demonstrates that he doesn’t in fact grasp either subject well enough to comprehend trivial counterexamples, and (3) lends very strong support to Fowler’s contention that it’s probably pointless to try to teach adults how to use shall and will, directly undermining his own assertion that one can learn anything anytime.

    I took algebra in high school and help my daughter through it, so yes I know what algebra is. Again, any specific algebraic equation pertaining to vaccination.

  188. #190 Julian Frost
    February 16, 2014

    And TClark pulls a Brave Sir Robin.

New comments have been temporarily disabled. Please check back soon.