I realize that some of my readers will chide me for saying this, but I usually expect better of Reason. Although I sometimes have a tendency to be a bit—shall we say?—Insolent about libertarians when they pass from a reasonable defense of civil liberties into an Ayn Rand-inspired fantasy world in which the market cures all, useless people keep the supermen (and women) down, and the government is virtually unnecessary, I’ve usually considered Reason.com to represent a fairly—if you’ll excuse the word—reasonable variety of libertarianism. For instance, Ronald Bailey actually once presented what he called a pragmatic argument for coercive vaccination. Unfortunately, this time around, Reason.com has gone totally off the deep end when it comes to “health freedom,” presenting arguments, in essence, for the death of an Amish girl whose family has refused to complete her chemotherapy for a deadly childhood malignancy because, in a nutshell, parental rights must rule supreme. If you wonder whether I’m being too harsh on Reason.com and Tracy Oppenheimer, who, apparently, is responsible for this medical atrocity, read on.

Sarah Hershberger, as regular readers will recall, is an 11-year-old Amish girl from northeast Ohio, an area of the country with which I am well familiar, having spent eight years in Cleveland doing my residency and obtaining my PhD, who was diagnosed last year with lymphoblastic leukemia. She underwent one full course of chemotherapy (out of five courses planned over more than two years), which is the standard of care for the particular variety of leukemia she has. Unfortunately, her family stopped her chemotherapy early in her second course, after the induction phase had been completed, but only a dose or two into her consolidation phase. The reason this is so dangerous, as I’ve explained before, is that recurrence rates are very high after just the induction phase. Without the four other phases of chemotherapy required for this malignancy, there’s a high probability that her leukemia will recur, and when it recurs it will be a more resistant variety, having already been “selected” with one course of chemotherapy. Might she “get away with” only one phase of her chemotherapy? It’s possible, but very unlikely, and, given that full course treatment results in long term survival rates upwards of 85%, not completing the full five phases of chemotherapy is very much endangering this child.

In response to this understandable (given that Sarah was suffering side effects) but profoundly dangerous (to Sarah) action, Akron Children’s Hospital did a highly admirable thing. It brought legal action to appoint a guardian for purposes of medical decision making. This decision led to the Hershbergers fleeing Ohio in order to subject Sarah to quackery. Meanwhile quacks everywhere were furiously spinning, claiming that “natural healing” techniques that the Hershbergers had sought out had rendered her disease free. Most recently, I sadly and reluctantly concluded that Sarah was probably doomed, as the 1851 Center for Constitutional Law, headed up by a crank named Maurice Thompson, had taken the case. When last I left the case, Sarah Hershberger apparently had come home to die. (I realize that that’s not what Thompson and the Hersbhergers were saying, and certainly that’s not what supporters of quackery were admitting, but I had my rasons for concluding it.) Throughout it all, I contended (and still contend) that those arguing for the right of the Hershberger family to deny Sarah lifesaving treatment for a highly curable cancer (85% five year survival) cared far more for “parental rights” than they did about the rights of Sarah Hershberger to live. Currently, as I’ve discussed before, Sarah’s medical guardian, Maria Schimer, resigned. Apparently the court didn’t accept her resignation until March 4, and currently her medical guardian is Judge Kevin Dunn. (I can’t link to the source right now because it’s down.) What will happen next is anyone’s guess.

Tracy Oppenheimer’s brain dead video piece on Reason.com, in which she lets Maurice Thompson advocate for parental rights above all, even if it means the “freedom” for the Hershbergers to let Sarah die a horrific death from leukemia, is entitled Amish vs. the Courts: Family Speaks Out on Fleeing the U.S. to Save Daughter from Court-Mandated Chemo. I don’t recall recently having seen such a one-sided piece about the Hershbergers outside of the usual sources, such as It’s truly painful to watch, as it basically argues that parental rights trump all:

)

Try not to facepalm too many times when Thompson is speaking. I had a deep hand print on my face, so epic were the facepalms. I should sue Thompson for emotional distress due to flaming stupidity burned into my brain.

Part of the reason I had to blog about this is that the video reveals some things that hadn’t yet been revealed. For instance, featured in the video is a woman described as “health practitioner Angela Lowther. Lowther is an ND; i.e., a naturopath, or, as I like to call the Not a Doctor. It didn’t take much Google-Fu to find her at the Seeds of Wellness clinic in Avon Lake, OH, where she is described thusly:

Angela has owned Healthy Balance Wellness Center since 2008 and has been in practice as a natural health practitioner since 2005 starting out in California.

She is a Doctor of Natural Medicine (ND), Certified Natural Health Practitioner (CNHP), D.PSc – Diplomate of Pastoral Science for PMA and a licensed health provider for PMA, Veterinary Aide, Digital Health Specialist (QBS) – Quantum Biofeedback Specialist, a Digestive Care Specialist for Advanced Naturals, an Independent Consultant for doTerra Essential Oils and Certified AromaTouch Technician for doTerra.

Quantum Biofeedback Specialist? Essential oils? AromaTouch? Those modalities are some serious quackery there. I also note that Lowther’s partners at the clinic where she works includes Rev. Pat Beers, a psychic, medium, clairvoyant, and psychometrist (described as someone who “uses your objects to pick up vibrations”), while also claiming to be able to communicate with animals. Completing the team is Rev. Donna Bretz, who is described as a psychic reader, Reiki Master, Hypnotherapist and ordained Minister. She’s also described as an intuitive empath and uses Angel Cards and Oracle Cards to “help her connect with her Spirit People to receive the answers you seek.”

This is the practitioner to whom the Hershbergers turned to help their daughter get through chemotherapy? No wonder it didn’t take too much for them to be willing to stop treatment, particularly given that one of Sarah’s relatives, LeRoy Keim, is a multilevel marketer for a “natural” weight loss system known as Zija. One can only wonder what nonsense Lowther was filling their heads with. Of course, the Hershbergers must have been susceptible to the nonsense, given that they took Sarah to Lowther in the first place. Meanwhile, in Oppeheimer’s piece, Lowther is allowed to blather on about how natural remedies “boost the immune system” (really, she actually said that at around 2:10 in the video). She also told Oppenheimer that Sarah’s doctors weren’t open to considering any natural supplements. Well, of course they weren’t! They were focused on using science-based medicine to provide Sarah with the best chance that they could possibly give her of surviving her cancer and living to a ripe old age and likely didn’t need to be worrying about whether this herb or this supplement might be interacting or interfering with Sarah’s chemotherapy and other drugs.

We also learn that the Hershbergers were in Mexico, having taken a three and a half day journey from Ohio. The clinic in Mexico where Sarah was treated is not revealed, but unfortunately there are many to choose from, particularly in Tijuana but not limited to Tijuana. The Mexican border is long, and Mexico is a big country. Oppenheimer writes that the Hershbergers wouldn’t provide details of Sarah’s “alternative” treatments, but that information is readily available if she had bothered to do one bit of research for her piece. I noted it months ago in an anti-chemotherapy piece written by David Augenstein:

Andy explained in general terms some of the treatment and nutritional supplements, including high doses of vitamin C and B17, oxygen therapy, detoxification methods, as well as the IV chelation to deliver some of these to Sarah’s bloodstream. He also explained how the doctors arrived at a cancer-free status. She is now on a special diet including lots of vegetables and raw foods and taking special natural supplements, as prescribed by the foreign doctors.

Funny how I found this so easily, and Oppenheimer did not. Funny how also no one is presented to point out that high dose vitamin C for cancer doesn’t work, that B17 (laetrile) is cancer quackery that was discredited 30 years ago, and that “detoxification” and chelation are among the most nonsensical of quackeries aside from the ones that are, like Reiki and therapeutic touch, essentially magical faith healing. What Oppenheimer is doing in her piece is promoting the ability of parents to withhold effective medical treatment in favor of quackery. One wonders if she would have taken the same tack if she knew that the “natural remedies” that Sarah’s parents have chosen include laetrile. Given the ideological bent of this piece, my guess is that it wouldn’t have made a difference. What’s the life of a child compared to…FREEEDOMMMM!

The video starts out with Maurice Thompson of the 1851 Center for Constitutional Law, a dubious far right advocacy group, opining that “Having a free society means that people need to be free to take risks, including risks with their family, when they are suitable and loving parents.” Thompson got half of that right. If he had simply said that having a free society means that people need to be free to take risks, I’d have no problem with that. Competent adults should be free to take risks, and I’ve always said that competent adults can choose whatever treatment they want for themselves, be it science-based or quackery. The key phrase in that sentence is “for themselves.” Children are not considered competent to make such decisions for themselves, and we don’t let them. We can argue about what age children become sufficiently competent to make such decisions, but few would argue that an 11 or 12 year old is competent to make health decisions like deciding whether to do chemotherapy or not. That’s the parents’ job.

So far, so good. But what happens when the parents fail, which is what is happening now? Thompson and Oppenheimer spend lots of time in the video portraying the Hershbergers as loving “suitable” (legal language) parents. That’s a total straw man argument. Thompson also says:

It’s one thing for society, government, for experts to overrule parents who are abusive, or who are neglectful or who perhaps lack the capacity to properly care for their children, and it’s imperative to emphasize that none of those are the case here.

No one—and I mean, no one—is saying that the Hershbergers aren’t loving parents. I certainly have no doubt that the Hershbergers love their daughter as much as any parents can love their child. I also have no doubt that they think they are doing the right thing for her. Unfortunately, cancer doesn’t recognize good intentions. These parents are making a profoundly harmful choice for their daughter, one that is very likely to prevent her from ever seeing adulthood. As I said before, she might luck out, and the chemotherapy that she’s received thus far might be enough, but it’s far more likely that it is not and that her cancer will recur. Considerable time is taken in the video, with Lowther, Sarah’s parents, and Thompson all gushing over how normal and “energetic” Sarah is right now. Oppenheimer cheerily adds to the illusion by narrating herself how fantastic Sarah looks. That’s totally a red herring that has no bearing on why she needs more chemotherapy. She might well seem perfectly fine now, but sooner or later her cancer will almost certainly recur. In the meantime, she’s being treated with quackery like laetrile. That is why, contrary to what Thompson is arguing, the reality is that the Hershbergers are abusive and neglectful. When parents, no matter how well-intentioned, medically neglect their children—and, make no mistake, Sarah Hershberger is a blatant case of medical neglect—it is right and just for society to step in. Medical neglect is abuse, parental intentions notwithstanding.

Arguments like Thompson’s piss me off to no end, because they basically devalue the life of the child and are rooted in the attitude that parental “rights” always trump the good of the child, at least as long as the parents look like nice, fine upstanding citizens. It’s why parents whose children die because they choose prayer over medicine are rarely severely punished in this country. What the Hershbergers are doing to Sarah is no different from that.

Tragically, this video makes it very clear that the Hershbergers were laboring under a delusion. They clearly don’t understand what is at stake. At one point in the video Thompson mentions that the Hershbergers decided to try “natural” treatments, with the belief that they could always go back to chemotherapy if the “natural” therapy failed. On the surface, this seems reasonable enough, but it’s based on a massive misunderstanding of cancer biology. What the Hershbergers don’t seem to understand (and what Oppenheimer doesn’t acknowledge) is that when Sarah’s cancer returns, it will be much harder to treat and far more likely to kill her, no matter what the pediatric oncologists at Akron Children’s Hospital (or any other pediatric cancer center) throw at her. The first chance is virtually always the best chance to cure any cancer, and the Hershbergers are wasting that chance. When Sarah’s cancer returns, oncologists might still be able to save her, but the odds of that will go down considerably.

Thompson also makes a very deceptive argument, pointing out that chemotherapy has significant risks, including infertility, secondary cancers, and even death. One notes that he mentions death first and very prominently. Sure, chemotherapy has significant risks. However, those risks pale in comparison to the risks of what the Hershbergers are doing now. The risk of death due to chemotherapy is much, much lower than the risk of death from cancer, and if you’re a child with cancer you won’t even have the risk of secondary malignancies and infertility of the cancer isn’t cured with appropriate treatment, mainly because you’ll die long before such chemotherapy-associated complications have the opportunity to manifest themselves.

The bottom line is this. The Hershbergers, as nice as they might be and as much as they might love Sarah, are letting her die, and her death will likely be very unpleasant. The State of Ohio and Medina County have profoundly failed in protecting Sarah from this, and far too many people are okay with this, out of a misguided fear of “trampling parental rights.” Maurice Thompson, through his advocacy of parental rights above all else, is complicit in the medical neglect being perpetrated by the Hershbergers. Worse, he’s trying to generalize it to all children, and if he prevails it will be open season on children for cancer quacks in Ohio. Reason should know better than to provide a propaganda organ for the misguided libertarians trying to defend parents who are medically neglecting their children.

Comments

  1. #1 jane
    March 12, 2014

    What you want in this case is reasonable, but I wish you would make the case using numbers instead of emotive language. From the numbers that were bandied about in earlier discussions, though there’s a substantial chance that Sarah will have a recurrence and die – and if that did happen, there would be a substantial chance that her death could have been avoided by fuller treatment – it’s not true that she “almost certainly” will by any normal definition of that phrase. You are painting yourself into a corner because it’s very possible that this girl will still be alive and well in five years, and your pronouncement that she’s doomed will certainly be used by her alternative practitioners as evidence that their modalities, which probably have little or no effect on leukemia recurrence, must be effective.

  2. #2 Orac
    March 12, 2014

    I’ve used numbers many times before in the posts to which I’ve linked. No need to reinvent the wheel, when I’ve posted about Sarah so many times. That “substantial” chance has been estimated by an oncologist who comments here to be at least 90% or higher, which to me is pretty darned close to certain.

    You are, however correct. On the off chance that Sarah’s cancer doesn’t recur, the Hershbergers and the quacks who hold up their case as a great injustice will claim that it was the quackery that cured her. The same thing happened when Abraham Cherrix lasted far longer than one would have expected not having undergone definitive therapy. They don’t mention him much any more, because he did eventually recur, and when last I checked in with him he was battling multiple recurrences. His, it turns out, was an indolent tumor, but unfortunately it is also relentless.

    As for “emotive language,” I think it’s very appropriate in this case, given the topic.

  3. #3 Composer99
    http://composer99.blogspot.ca
    March 12, 2014

    I’m pretty certain I’m on record on a long-ago post on Respectful Insolence opining that being a parent – or more generally a guardian (natural or legal) – of a child doesn’t confer rights so much as it confers duties – most notably, in the case of medical care, the duties to look out for a child’s best interests.

    While there may come a (surely heartbreaking) point where withholding curative treatment from a child with cancer, in favour of, say, palliation, I would think that until reaching that point, it’s in the child’s best interests to have an opportunity to reach adulthood – that is, to pursue curative treatment, however unpleasant.

    The Hershbergers are, in their well-intentioned ignorance, allowing quacks to prey upon their child and their finances (*) and are narrowing the window of opportunity where curative treatment can be effective. It is an alternately enraging and depressing situation.

    (*) And on the goodwill and charity of others who donate(d) to help pay for Sarah’s medical costs.

  4. #4 Dangerous Bacon
    March 12, 2014

    “She is a Doctor of Natural Medicine (ND), Certified Natural Health Practitioner (CNHP), D.PSc – Diplomate of Pastoral Science for PMA and a licensed health provider for PMA, Veterinary Aide, Digital Health Specialist (QBS) – Quantum Biofeedback Specialist, a Digestive Care Specialist for Advanced Naturals, an Independent Consultant for doTerra Essential Oils and Certified AromaTouch Technician for doTerra.”

    Well, that’s a heck of a lot more titles and initials to put after your name than just M.D., board certified in oncology. And I’ll bet none of the physicians treating Sarah were qualified as a veterinary aide.

  5. #5 C.C.
    March 12, 2014

    Lowther’s list of qualifications includes Veterinary Aide. I don’t know what she means by this. In the U.S. veterinary assistants are on-the-job trained or go through a short series of courses while veterinary technicians are supposed to have graduated from a 2 or 4 year AVMA approved program and passed national and state exams. There’s a maddening variation about that among states, but that’s neither here nor there.

    I am a credentialed veterinary technician and I would never attempt to treat a human, short of a zombie apocalypse.

    I’m barred by law from diagnosing, prescribing and performing surgery on animals even though I have some education on how all these things are done. Being a veterinary aide, whatever that’s supposed to mean, certainly doesn’t add anything to her presumed ability to treat any living being.

  6. #6 Helianthus
    March 12, 2014

    It’s one thing for society, government, for experts to overrule parents who are abusive, or who are neglectful or who perhaps lack the capacity to properly care for their children, and it’s imperative to emphasize that none of those are the case here.

    Emphasize all you want, Thompson. The crux of the problem is precisely that rejecting a course of action with some chance of working for some unscientific, unproven one could indeed be seen as a sign of neglect. Or, to be more charitable, of parents which are out of their depth and are about to make a mistake.

    On another nitpick, just noting this:

    an Independent Consultant for doTerra Essential Oils and Certified AromaTouch Technician for doTerra

    How could you be on one hand an “independent consultant” and on the other hand a “certified technician” for the same company?

  7. #7 Eric Lund
    March 12, 2014

    @Dangerous Bacon: I’m afraid to ask what a Diplomate of Pastoral Science is, and what that qualification has to do with medicine in humans.

    What’s the life of a child compared to…FREEEDOMMMM!

    I would not have been able to resist the temptation to spell that last word “FREEDUMB!”

  8. #8 Daniel Welch
    March 12, 2014

    I’m a regular reader of Reason, but I’ve also been put off by their absolutist stance on parental rights. There’s a sticky question here, though. How do we draw a line that enables us to help Sarah Hershberger without also circumscribing other cases where interference would be more troubling? It is one thing to say, Only in situations where the child’s life is clearly in danger, and there is a treatment that is highly likely to be effective. But adverbs are slippery; what constitutes “clearly” and “highly”?

    Even more than that, I think Reason is afraid of the slippery slope: once we’ve said interference is OK in “this” situation, what about “that” one? For instance, is the “Free Range Kids” movement a wholesome reaction to an overprotective society, or reckless people endangering their children’s very lives? Is ensuring the best chance for life even enough? What about a child’s right to mental health — can we enforce that, as well? That seems like a good idea, too, but now we are REALLY in a grey area.

    • #9 Orac
      March 12, 2014

      Of course, “slippery slope” arguments are generally considered a logical fallacy. It’s very rare that they’re made without being fallacious or overblown.

  9. #10 Eric Lund
    March 12, 2014

    How could you be on one hand an “independent consultant” and on the other hand a “certified technician” for the same company?

    One word: Microsoft.

    Longer version: The company in question may be pulling a common if questionable tax dodge by giving their employees a Form 1099 (as independent contractors) rather than a W-2 (which they would get as employees). The difference being that, if you get a Form 1099, you are expected to pay the portion of Social Security and Medicare taxes that your employer would pay if you got a W-2 from them.

  10. #11 Helianthus
    March 12, 2014

    @ Orac/Composer99

    As for “emotive language,” I think it’s very appropriate in this case, given the topic.

    It is an alternately enraging and depressing situation.

    Agreeing on both counts.

    If I knew the family of the poor girl, I would be split between sharing their grief, and wanting to yell at them.
    It sounds self-righteous, but darn it, refusing chemo to have plenty of other nasty stuff (chelation chief among them) injected into their child?

  11. #12 Helianthus
    March 12, 2014

    @ Eric Lund

    Oh. Tax evasion.

    Thanks. I suspected something like this, but lacked the knowledge.

  12. #13 Denice Walter
    March 12, 2014

    ” into an Ayn Rand-inspired fantasy worldn in which the market cures all……”

    I believe that Orac has, with the above sentence, sounded the alarm awakening libertarians, Randians and health freedom advocates to battle for their g-d-given rights on these pages.

  13. #14 Orac
    March 12, 2014

    Or maybe—just maybe—I’ve awakened the Sheeple!

    http://xkcd.com/1013

  14. #15 Renate
    March 12, 2014

    Can someone explain to me what a Digital Health Specialist is?
    Someone who is supposed to care for the health of digital equipment?

  15. #16 Chris,
    March 12, 2014

    Renate, maybe it is a person who specializes in the health of fingers.

  16. #17 Chris,
    March 12, 2014

    Or:

    “Digital Health Specialist” = someone who gives massages

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger

  17. #18 Beamup
    March 12, 2014

    I guess I’m the only one who thought of E.T. in relation to “digital health specialist?” Although Lowther may think she can actually DO that.

  18. #19 cakesphere
    March 12, 2014

    @Renate – that’s how I read it too, haha.

    I know how to run Malwarebytes and Spybot: Search and Destroy, does that make me a Digital Health Specialist too?

    I also have a doctorate in ctrl-alt-deleteology!

  19. #20 Mike
    March 12, 2014

    “ArmoaTouch”

    I know this is one of the BlinkenBoxOLights occasional typos, but it actually sounds like it could be some new sort of alternative treatment that “cures everything from toothaches to cancer.” Wonder if one of the Alties will claim ArmoaTouch for their own.

    More on topic, the whole situation leaves me a little torn. I agree that this is a case where “Parental Rights” are unquestionably putting their child at risk, probably to the point of leading to her untimely death. But I’ve also seen cases where the State (in the guise of CPS) has wildly overstepped their bounds and done severe damage to a family. Albeit in a non-medical context.

    I don’t see an easy way to balance the rights of a parent (the legal and ethical guardian of their child – Duties, as Composer eloquently puts it) with the duties of the State to act in the best interests of their citizens – especially the ones least able to take care of themselves.

  20. #21 Angel
    March 12, 2014

    Nope,they use a digital machine to take a reading from their patient to determine whats wrong with them.Ain’t technology wonderful.Sad part is that they charge people to do this and people are fooled into believing that it is a true form of medicine.And F.Y.I Orac Angela is from Ashland, Ohio. She see’s many Amish who consider her to be a Medical Doctor.They believe whatever she tells them.

  21. #22 Dunc
    March 12, 2014

    There’s a sticky question here, though. How do we draw a line that enables us to help Sarah Hershberger without also circumscribing other cases where interference would be more troubling? It is one thing to say, Only in situations where the child’s life is clearly in danger, and there is a treatment that is highly likely to be effective. But adverbs are slippery; what constitutes “clearly” and “highly”?

    There will always be grey areas and edge cases, that’s why we have courts instead of flow-charts. You can’t reduce justice to an algorithm.

  22. #23 Dorit
    March 12, 2014

    I’ve come across quite a few cases of neglect where the parents did not have bad intent (though some parents are really, really culpable, unfortunately). As Orac points out, that’s not the question and not the focus. Killing a child with love is no less killing that child. Maybe the language of neglect should be changed, in a way that will capture the idea that it’s not about assigning blame, but about protecting the child.

  23. #24 Angel
    March 12, 2014

    @Renate here is some interesting info Quack “Electrodiagnostic” Devices
    Stephen Barrett, M.D.

    The devices described in this article are used to diagnose nonexistent health problems, select inappropriate treatment, and defraud insurance companies. The practitioners who use them are either delusional, dishonest, or both. These devices should be confiscated and the practitioners who use them should be prosecuted. If you encounter any such device, please report it to the state attorney general, any relevant licensing board, the FDA, the FTC, the FBI, the Better Business Bureau, and any insurance company to which the practitioner submits claims that involve use of the device.

  24. #25 Angel
    March 12, 2014

    @Renate here is some interesting info Quack “Electrodiagnostic” Devices
    Stephen Barrett, M.D.

    ” The devices described in this article are used to diagnose nonexistent health problems, select inappropriate treatment, and defraud insurance companies. The practitioners who use them are either delusional, dishonest, or both. These devices should be confiscated and the practitioners who use them should be prosecuted. If you encounter any such device, please report it to the state attorney general, any relevant licensing board, the FDA, the FTC, the FBI, the Better Business Bureau, and any insurance company to which the practitioner submits claims that involve use of the device. “

  25. #26 Bronze Dog
    March 12, 2014

    When quackery invokes parental rights, I cringe. I’ve seen a few too many cases where alties speak of children as if they were broken toasters or privately owned (sloppily conducted) science experiments, rather than thinking, feeling people who are suffering. In some cases, particularly religious ones, they speak of the child as merely a tool for punishing some real or imagined transgression of the parent.

  26. #27 Dave W.
    United States
    March 12, 2014

    @Helianthus: Not necessarily tax evasion (though there are companies who skirt the legal line on this). There are other differences between an independent consultant and an employee, including how much control the company has over how and when you do the work. In the US, the IRS has a list of questions that can be used to help determine whether a given person is an employee or an independent contractor, and while they are somewhat biased in favor of finding the person to be an employee, there are many examples of people who are legitimately independent contractors.

    I’ve been an independent contractor in a tutoring business that I’m confident satisfied the legal definition. The company in question acted as a broker who put me in contact with clients, certified my abilities, and handled billing and collections. I set my own hours and pay rate by negotiating directly with the clients. The company took a percentage of what I was paid as their cut. I was also free to work with other clients that I found on my own, which I handled independently of my relationship with the company.

    That’s a pretty good example of what an independent contractor relationship can look like.

  27. #28 palindrom
    March 12, 2014

    I pointed out this post to a colleague of mine who has taken a special interest in how the Amish have accomodated (or not) to the demands of the modern world (e.g., compulsory schooling, and so on). He hadn’t been aware of this case — he had this to say:

    [palindrom], interesting and sad. Amish are not generally opposed to modern medicine. [Orac] did not mention the cost of the treatment and the fact
    that traditional Amish refuse to get private medical insurance and generally do not participate in government programs. I wonder how much the cost affected the Hershbergers’ decision to stop the chemo, though the quack alternatives (and a trip to Mexico) are usually not cheap, either.

  28. #29 palindrom
    March 12, 2014

    Hey, if you take your car to a dealership with a check-engine light on, the first thing they do is plug it into some electronic gizmo that tells them what’s wrong with it.

    Don’t people work the same way?

  29. #30 Mike
    March 12, 2014

    And then you have stories like this, where a parent declined to take preventative steps to protect her newborn, and something disastrous happened
    http://cestsibonblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/07/why-it-happened-the-truth-about-vitamin-k-deficiency-bleeding/

  30. #31 Todd W.
    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
    March 12, 2014

    I agree with Orac that it is angering to see something that is as clear cut as this case. And to have people crying “but what about parental rights” without seeming to consider the child…ugh.

    For those interested in a less clear-cut situation, there’s the case of Justina Pelletier. Similar to the Hershbergers, the state stepped in to ensure that Justina was properly cared for. But here’s the rub: it isn’t a question of real medicine vs. quackery, but real medicine vs. real medicine. The response has been, similar to the Hershbergers, almost exclusively loud cries about parental rights, etc. Intriguing, but very murky, case.

  31. #32 Eric Lund
    March 12, 2014

    Nope,they use a digital machine to take a reading from their patient to determine whats wrong with them.

    So it’s sort of like a tricorder, except for the minor detail that (at least in the Star Trek universe) tricorders work, and this machine doesn’t.

  32. #33 Orac
    March 12, 2014

    I think that, in cases like Sarah Hershberger, a lot of otherwise fairly reasonable libertarians fall for the slippery slope fallacy. (You do know that the slippery slope argument is almost always a logical fallacy, didn’t you?) They seem to think that if they budge even a little bit, even for such a clear-cut case as that of Sarah Hershberger, it will inevitably open the door for a cascade of actions that will end with the state shutting parents out and raising our children in a Big Brother-like manner. They’ve convinced themselves of this so much so that they seem to think that if an occasional child like Sarah dies, then that’s the price of freedom. Not that they’d ever admit that. They might not even realize that that’s the argument they’re buying into, at least not consciously. But that is the consequence of their dogmatic, unbending support of “parental rights.”

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html
    http://www.fallacyfiles.org/slipslop.html

  33. #34 Dorit
    March 12, 2014

    Are you claiming libertarians are going with a greater good argument?

    (I think you’re right, by the way).

  34. #35 AnnB
    March 12, 2014

    @Todd – The case of Justina Pelletier came to mind too. Expand story here http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/12/15/justina/vnwzbbNdiodSD7WDTh6xZI/story.html

    There are a couple more stories of the same type of thing happening in mental hospitals. I don’t understand why in some situations it is like parents don’t exist and others they trump all (recall Elian Gonzalez).

    I certainly don’t have the answers. I only wanted to say that whenever the state steps in, they should be held just as accountable for the outcome as the child’s parents.

  35. #36 Helianthus
    March 12, 2014

    FREEEDOMMMM!

    “I may lose my child, but I will not lose my freedom”

    Somehow, this does not sound as heroic and self-sacrificing as Braveheart’s battle cry…

  36. #37 Orac
    March 12, 2014

    Are you claiming libertarians are going with a greater good argument?

    I suppose you could put it that way.

  37. #38 mashroom
    March 12, 2014

    #6 and #10

    doTerra is a multi-level-marketing essential oils distributor. THAT’s how you can be an independent consultant (dealer) and a certified technician (which is whatever amount of weird classes they put on for their consultants).

  38. #39 Rich Woods
    March 12, 2014

    @Mike #20:

    Wonder if one of the Alties will claim ArmoaTouch for their own.

    Create a Wikipedia page for it and they will come running.

  39. #40 Mike
    March 12, 2014

    At what point do parents lose the right or option to inflict harm or prevent harm on their children?

    Our pediatrician asked us to enroll our two children in a study on a new combination vaccine. We said sure. Then we were told about the protocols, which will involve multiple blood draws from our 1 year old and 4 year old. Unfortunately my 4 year old has been in the hospital a couple of times where she had IV’s and has had numerous blood draws for allergies. She hates them and I am forced to physically restrain her while she screams to hold her still. Is it ethical of me to force my daughters to be part of a study they do not understand and will cause them pain and will not personally benefit them though it may benefit people in the future?

  40. #41 Orac
    March 12, 2014

    That’s an interesting question, but it’s not quite related. The reason is simple. If you were to refuse to have your children participate in the clinical trial, your two children would not in any way be victims of medical neglect. Your pediatrician would continue to care for them according to the standard of care. So, of course, it’s ethical not to enroll them in the clinical trial if you don’t think they would handle it well. Only you can decide if you think the potential benefits to others are worth the distress that it would cause your children to participate.

  41. #42 Renate
    March 12, 2014

    I suppose if you think this study will be in some way not good for your child, I can imagine you have every right to refuse.

  42. #43 Neil J
    Sasquatchewan
    March 12, 2014

    It’s one thing for society, government, for experts to overrule parents who are abusive, or who are neglectful or who perhaps lack the capacity to properly care for their children, and it’s imperative to emphasize that none of those are the case here.

    Couldn’t agree less. “[L]ack the capacity” is the key phrase here. Most of us lack the capacity to care for a child with cancer, at least in terms of treating their disease. Only a few people (pediatric oncologists) can actually do so properly. It doesn’t matter how loving and kind you are as a parent, to completely care for your child you need a competent medical team on your side as well.

    @Composer99 #3: Very well put.

  43. #44 Politicalguineapig
    March 12, 2014

    Dunc: You can’t reduce justice to an algorithm.

    No, but given how each court case is determined by all the others that went before it, you can guess how the case is going to turn out, and by that which illegal acts are actually legal (due to non-prosecution and general climate of state.)

  44. #45 herr doktor bimler
    March 12, 2014

    Can someone explain to me what a Digital Health Specialist is?
    When my doctor is conducting my yearly check-up, he certainly uses his finger for part of the examination.

  45. #46 lilady
    March 12, 2014

    @ Mike: you always have the right to drop out of a clinical trial that you or your child(ren) are participating in.

    Believe it or not, I posted a comment on another site months ago, about Sarah Hershberger; another poster stated that children are chattel.

    I just posted a comment on the Reason.com website:

    http://reason.com/reasontv/2014/03/11/amish-family-defends-medical-decisions-f#comment_4374661

  46. #47 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    March 12, 2014

    Just because “slippery slope” or “domino effect” is often a logical fallacy doesn’t mean it can’t be true…

  47. #48 Narad
    March 12, 2014

    Thompson and Oppenheimer spend lots of time in the video portraying the Hershbergers as loving “suitable” (legal language) parents. That’s a total straw man argument.

    Be that as it may, it’s been a core contention in Maurice’s untimely and mooted legal efforts. I’ve mentioned this before, but this part of the legal argument boils down to three parts (I just got home, so there are no citations):

    1. In Ohio, it has been found that a medical guardian cannot consent to the removal of life support from a ward if parental rights have not been completeley legally severed.

    2. Chemotherapy here would be life-sustaining, which is close enough to invoke the case law.

    3. Because the Hershbergers do not satisfy the criteria for permant severance of rights, a medical guardian cannot compel life-saving treatment.

    As I’ve also mentioned, this boils down to nothing other than the absurdity that medical guardianships don’t exist. Maurice has not yet been pressed into trying to run this line of shıt past a real live judge.

  48. #49 Narad
    March 12, 2014

    I can’t link to the source right now because it’s down.

    It’s back up.

  49. #50 herr doktor bimler
    March 12, 2014

    one of Sarah’s relatives, LeRoy Keim, is a multilevel marketer for a “natural” weight loss system known as Zija.

    I suppose LeRoy’s claim that any money you send him (made through multiple crowd-sourcing charity appeals) will be spent on helping Sarah’s family, is truthful enough, to the extent that Leroy is a member of her family.

  50. #51 Narad
    March 12, 2014

    Sorry to natter on; I’m working piecemeal. First, the previous comment was mistaken; the Medina County docket search is still 503, but the payload linked above is live.

    Maurice Thompson, through his advocacy of parental rights above all else, is complicit in the medical neglect being perpetrated by the Hershbergers. Worse, he’s trying to generalize it to all children, and if he prevails it will be open season on children for cancer quacks in Ohio.

    I think that what’s even worse is that he’s doing it for no reason other than personal publicity. The Hershbergers already had counsel in the form of John Olberholzter, who they discharged because Maurice sold them a bill of goods.

    He doesn’t have that bad of a track record, but I don’t think there’s any question here that his representation has been nothing short of incompetent. (*Paging Prof. Reiss*) The legal grandstanding he tried to get away with amounted to nothing more (on top of the seriously crappy “amicus” brief) than raising issues on appeal that he damn well should have known were inappropriate.

    Schimer’s final reply brief was terse, and the decision was as well. Maurice simply preyed on the Hershbergers for the sake of blowing the conch trumpet he has left over from his shriveled crown gastropod, the Ohio Healthcare Freedom Amendment.

  51. #52 Narad
    March 12, 2014

    She is a Doctor of Natural Medicine (ND), Certified Natural Health Practitioner (CNHP), D.PSc – Diplomate of Pastoral Science for PMA and a licensed health provider for PMA

    There appears to be unharvested nutbaggery once one scratches the fusion crust of the Pastoral Medical Association. From a comment at Mark Sircus’s joint:

    cultural_truth

    Notice & Warning. This is not the Orginal Pastoral Medical Association..It is a Copycat
    If people actually do their research they will see that the Pastoral Medical Association in Nevis and Texas was orignally called the World Organization of Natural Medicine Practitioners, which was a Copy of the Original World Organization of Natural Medicine based in Canada(www[.]wonm[.]org) under Dr. Sheila Mckenzie. Professor Charles McWilliams & his wife was excommunited from the WONM & their Hospitallar order & decided to Establish his own knights order, and with Dr. Holt & then Eric Carter created a bogus version of WONM adding practitioners. they originally claimed to license Monastic Medicine practitioners & accredit Colleges

    Sound familiar?

  52. #53 Narad
    March 12, 2014

    Bingo.

    The guy behind the Integrative Pastoral Medical Association has been so helpful as to assemble a blacklist.

  53. #54 herr doktor bimler
    March 12, 2014

    Ah, So there is a dispute between the Alternative to the Alternative Health Provider network, and the Alternative to the Alternative to the Alternative Health Provider network, over money which is which.
    How did you find the SaneVax connection? Just following a hunch?

  54. #55 Narad
    March 12, 2014

    @palindrom:

    [Orac] did not mention the cost of the treatment and the fact that traditional Amish refuse to get private medical insurance and generally do not participate in government programs. I wonder how much the cost affected the Hershbergers’ decision to stop the chemo….

    At least under the guardianship, this report states that there would have been no cost, which makes sense.

    Looking at the Akron Children’s “Hospital Care Assurance Program” application, given that there are seven children in total, there would have been no bill if the gross family income were under $35,610, with an assistance program after that.

  55. #56 Narad
    March 12, 2014

    How did you find the SaneVax connection? Just following a hunch?

    No, it was on the blacklist, which popped right up with a search for “‘pastoral medical association’ nevis” looking for the connection to this, which is probably to be had.

  56. #57 Narad
    March 13, 2014

    While I still have some energy, allow me to turn to “Rev. Pat Beers.”

    As a medium, clairvoyant and psychometrist (uses your objects to pick up vibrations), she uses her gifts to provide you with guidance to your life path. Pat is also able to communicate with animals and welcomes pets as long as they are on a lease [sic] or in a carrier.

    As a Reverend through the Sanctuary of Angelic Lights, Pat has done over 33 weddings.

    Who might the Sanctuary of Angelic Lights be? Why, it is was Pat Beers!

  57. #58 Narad
    March 13, 2014

    It didn’t take much Google-Fu to find her at the Seeds of Wellness clinic in Avon Lake, OH

    It seems to be a bit more than just a clinic:

    “Looking for a smoking alternative? Seeds of Wellness specializes in Premium Vapes electronic cigarettes, EGO 510 e-cig and their accessories.”

  58. #59 Spectator
    March 13, 2014

    “licensed health provider for PMA, Veterinary Aide, Digital Health Specialist (QBS) – Quantum Biofeedback Specialist, a Digestive Care Specialist for Advanced Naturals, an Independent Consultant for doTerra Essential Oils and Certified AromaTouch Technician for doTerra.”

    Sounds like a vacuum cleaner.
    Fool and money, meet vacuum.
    Somebuddy’s gotta do it.

  59. #60 Spectator
    March 13, 2014

    ““substantial” chance has been estimated by an oncologist who comments here to be at least 90% or higher, which to me is pretty darned close to certain….”

    Numbers and our perception of their meaning depend on how they are presented and our stake in their significance.
    Is 90% big or little?
    Neither.

    Car pool driver:
    1. “On each trip, I have reason to be 90% confident my car’s left front wheel will not fall off”
    rider: yeah, uhhm, take it easy while I’m in the car
    2. “We make ten trips to and from work per week. On each trip, the left front wheel has about a one in ten chance of falling off.”
    rider: uhhm, I’ll take the bus

  60. #61 Narad
    March 13, 2014

    And… Angela Lowther has now officially engaged in the unauthorized practice of medicine under Ohio Rev. Code § 4731:

    Learn how to use essential oils [f]or better health, overcoming pain, fighting colds, digestion issues, allergies, etc. with Dr. Angela Lowther.

  61. #62 Neil J
    March 13, 2014

    @Spectator #60

    Your analogy fails. If we had nothing to compare to the 90% recurrence rate associated with opting out of the chemo program early in the consolidation phase, maybe it would hold water. But we know that the recurrence rate with a full course of chemo is much lower than this (not sure of the specific numbers, but they do exist… Orac?). Thus the 90% recurrence rate isn’t a subjective value that can be interpreted however you want it to be, it’s a concrete value that can be objectively compared to other concrete values.

  62. #63 Helianthus
    March 13, 2014

    @ Narad

    This is not the Orginal Pastoral Medical Association.

    Why do I have this flashback about the People’s Front of Judea from Life of Brian?

  63. #64 Spectator
    March 13, 2014

    @Neil #60.

    The comment isn’t meant to be a critique of a medical practice.
    Obviously, it is unconscionable to deny treatment to the child.

    The comment is meant as an observation of how a statistic is perceived. Most people hear “90%” as “that’s almost 100%” and not “that’s like 27 days per month”.
    If a prediction as good about 90% of the time and one makes such a prediction once a (day/month/galactic time unit), one of the predictions is likely to fail before long, possibly well before 10 have been made. If the galactic sector overlord/internet echo chamber has a peeve with you, it will trumpet the first unfulfilled prediction while ignoring or rationalizing the others.

  64. #65 herr doktor bimler
    March 13, 2014

    It’s nice of Angela Lowther and the Rev. Donna Bretz to list their comprehensive portfolio of scams. They sound quite well-rounded — no niche is omitted.
    I am inured to the fact that in New Age circles, people who would be laughed out of a RenFaire can still monetise their self-dramatising intellectual-dress-up fantasies. It is still sad to see them kill an otherwise-treatable girl for the sake of the publicity.

    Quantum Biofeedback Specialist
    I recall that “Quantum Biofeedback” has featured in RI before, popular among grifters who wish to distinguish themselves from classical biofeedback woosters by adding additional Worship Words.
    I idly began to wonder a Quantum Biofeedback Association had been formed in order to limit unqualified competition. Evidently one exists in South Africa. There is a North American website claiming the mantles of both QBA and Quantum Biofeedback Practitioners’ Association, and charging a US $250 membership fee in return for unspecified benefits, but it looks rather moribund, and I suspect it’s an attempt to grift the grifters. So sadly, no turf wars to look forward to.

  65. #66 Narad
    March 13, 2014

    It’s nice of Angela Lowther and the Rev. Donna Bretz to list their comprehensive portfolio of scams.

    “Dr.” Lowther failed to mention her term as president of “Phunky Fones & Spunky Stuff, Inc.”

  66. #67 Politicalguineapig
    March 13, 2014

    Narad: “Dr.” Lowther failed to mention her term as president of “Phunky Fones & Spunky Stuff, Inc.”

    Is that a real company?

  67. #68 herr doktor bimler
    March 13, 2014

    The Great Gazoogle says Yes. Along with ‘Heartfelt”. See also “Angela Varho-Lowther”.

  68. #69 Joe Wear
    March 13, 2014

    There are several “practitioners” hiding behind the ‘pastoral medical association’ to hide their scamming. In order to use them the patient has to join the association and then if there are any problems you have to have your grievance heard in their ecclesiastical court. I’m not kidding that’s how they try to hide their illegal medical practices, behind religion. great little scam they have going on their.
    http://www.pmai.us/

  69. #70 Shank
    March 13, 2014

    Sorry Orac. I think you’re totally wrong on this. Sarah Hershberger is a child. That mean she has exactly the same status as a sofa, a ping-pong table, a book of stamps, or anything else her parents may or may not own. They have every right to deny her medical care, just as they have the right to deny her food, water, or a roof over her head. If they don’t think chemotherapy is best for her, or, if, indeed, they simply can’t be bothered to take her to the hospital, that is their right, and we should respect it.

    This isn’t about rationality, or evidence, or the “proven” effectiveness of mainstream medical treatment. This is about Freedom. And The Constitution. And the Liberty Bell. And John Wayne (maybe).

    Better dead than Red, even if you’re only 11.

  70. #71 squirrelelite
    March 13, 2014

    @narad 53,
    I didn’t recognized most of the names, but I did notice that Dr Suzanne Humphries made their blacklist.

    Oh, and I saw the sanevax site made the list, too. I think I skipped it in my original skim because they misspelled it as “senevax”.

  71. #72 Malakyp
    March 13, 2014

    @Helianthus: “How could you be on one hand an “independent consultant” and on the other hand a “certified technician” for the same company?”

    Well, since she’s also got a Quantum certification, it’s clear that her relationship with doTerra exists in a superposition of states, where she both is and is not independent. Until directly observed, anyway.

  72. #73 Todd W.
    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
    March 13, 2014

    @Shank

    Sorry, but children are not property. If you want, you are allowed to take a reciprocating saw to your sofa. You are not allowed to do so to your child. But, hey, freedom, amiright?

  73. #74 Militant Agnostic
    March 13, 2014

    @Todd W.

    Apparently the obvious Poe wasn’t obvious enough in spite of the invocation of John Wayne.

  74. #75 Todd W.
    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
    March 13, 2014

    @Militant Agnostic

    Yeah. My Poe detector’s been on the fritz lately.

  75. #76 Shank
    March 13, 2014

    P(oe)wned! 🙂

  76. #77 Helianthus
    March 13, 2014

    @ Malakyp

    Ahhh, of course. Now it’s making sense 🙂
    I wouldn’t want this lady to experience existentialist questions. I hope she receives soon the visit of some nice people from state’s or federal agencies to observe her very closely.

  77. #78 Shay
    March 13, 2014

    Shank, if you had added Benghazi! to your comments, we’d have all copped it.

  78. #79 Colin Day
    March 13, 2014

    @squirreleite
    #71

    Oh, and I saw the sanevax site made the list, too. I think I skipped it in my original skim because they misspelled it as “senevax”.

    They didn’t mean vaccinations for the elderly?

  79. #80 Colin Day
    March 13, 2014

    @ enise Walter
    #13

    Randians and health freedom advocates to battle for their g-d-given rights on these pages.

    Strictly speaking, Rand would not say that rights are God given,

  80. #81 Denice Walter
    March 13, 2014

    @ Colin Day:

    To be perfectly frank, I wouldn’t use that term either but I didn’t know how else to say it in a way that would be inclusive of these groups and yet comprehensible to others.
    Not that I think that of their positions are all that comprehenisble anyway.

  81. #82 lurker
    March 14, 2014

    Good work, Lilady, link included in your comment.

    Here’s what we’re up against, this from another comment a few comments above yours: ‘Nice strawmen bro, let me know when there’s a mass problem in society of this happening but currently the cancer we are all suffering from is the vile tumors of the state.’

    For emphasis: ‘the vile tumors of the state.’

    Americans are supposed to have a ‘healthy scepticism of government,’ but that’s not scepticism, it’s overt hatred. It’s as much hatred as if someone said, ‘I’m not going to let a [racial epithet] treat my kid!’

    Here’s how this works: the hate comes first, and the rationalisations come after to fill in the details, and then these haters go looking for pawns to use in their war against government. Just like the way Julian Assange manipulated a kid who wasn’t even legal to drink beer (Chelsea Manning) to throw her (at the time, his) life away for Assange’s cause.

    To my mind there are few things quite as disgusting and loathsome as someone who is willing to sacrifice _other people_ for his/her own cause.

    As for Angela Lowther, the lethal quack with the long list of meaningless titles, you can add one more to that: Certified Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Anyone who plumps up their ‘importance’ with a long list of pseudo-impressive but meaningless titles, is pretty obviously a textbook narcissist. And narcissists are second in dangerousness only to sociopaths and psychopaths. She needs to be investigated, prosecuted, and put out of business (is it too much to ask for a prison sentence?) before she kills anyone else.

  82. #83 Delysid
    March 15, 2014

    @Orac

    Disclaimer: I’m friends with Maurice in real life (and linked this blog to him).

    I have spoken at length about medicine and he knows I strongly reject alternative medicine as nonsense, but he is correct in defending the Hershberger’s and attacking the Ohio Health Law.

    Orac would you still defend a law that allows authorities to abduct a child in a reverse circumstance in which science-based medicine is being practiced and the authorities adhere to alternative medicine?

    Medical neglect is NOT abuse despite your efforts to redefine the terms. If someone doesn’t administer alternative medicine to their child, is that neglect?

    Your entire political premise rests on the assumption that the authorities will be correct. This is the blind trust in authority that libertarians despise. It’s elitism (even if sometimes correct) to believe government officials are cut from a finer cloth.

    A good portion of your blog posts are ranting about the stupidity of the authorities (like the Texas Medical Board) yet you still mock libertarians for opposing the authority.

    Also, Ayn Rand hated libertarians. She was an Objectivist.

    Orac since you are so fond of setting up an libertarian Ayn-Rand strawman fantasy utopia, can I assume that you want an Al Gore fantasy world.

    Just like Ayn Rand is the goddess of libertarianism, Al Gore is the god and gold standard of liberalism, right?

  83. #84 Delysid
    March 15, 2014

    @Orac

    Also it is important to consider that the slippery slope tactic used by libertarians isn’t necessarily a logical fallacy despite being one. This is called the fallacy fallacy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_fallacy

    Libertarians are proven to be justified in their slippery slope concerns about government authority time and time again. Orac, you voice your concerns about CAM and Integrated Medicine often in your writing. Have you been wrong in your slippery slope predictions?

    @Narad

    I’m calling a truce with you. Please stop doxxing me. I’ll quit mocking you if you agree to do the same. I apologize for nothing and do not expect one from you, but I want to comment here without immediate hostility.

    You said…

    “I think that what’s even worse is that [Maurice] is doing it for no reason other than personal publicity”

    I assure you from knowing him personally that his libertarian convictions and beliefs about civil liberties are deep-seated and sincere. You may disagree with a man’s actions, but attacking his intentions is just malicious speculation.

    His current project is attacking the legality of traffic cameras. That is hardly a hot topic of self-promotion and demagoguery.

    http://www.ohioconstitution.org/2014/03/13/legal-center-to-high-court-traffic-cameras-unconstitutional-in-ohio/

    “Maurice has not yet been pressed into trying to run this line of shıt past a real live judge.”

    Maurice has argued in front of the Ohio Supreme Court 3 times. He is an accomplished and extremely principled lawyer.

    In December 2013 he ran his “line of sh*t” against the unconstitutionality of the expansion of Medicaid in front of the Ohio Supreme Court. Of course he was correct about this as well. He is going against Republican governor Kasich.

  84. #85 Delysid
    March 15, 2014

    @Orac

    One more thing on the ridiculousness of the “Ayn Rand-inspired fantasy…”

    Ayn Rand never wrote about any libertarian utopia. Have you ever actually read any of her work or are you just pontificating and repeating popular progressive buzzwords?

    All of her work describes fictionalized DYSTOPIAS. Is George Owell’s 1985 a libertarian fantasy? Is Aldous Huxley’s Brave New World a libertarian fantasy? Why the hell is Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead as being a libertarian fantasy? They are written with the same themes and style as the former examples.

    I have yet to encounter an Ayn Rand critic who has actually read her work. I don’t agree with all of her beliefs and I find her too be excessively wordy with irrelevant details, but she wrote entertaining stories.

    The Fountainhead is about as libertarian and controversial as the Ghostbusters film. The most virulent criticism of Ayn Rand is obviously spewed by those who are ignorant of work. Repeating anti-libertarian propaganda does not count as being informed.

  85. #86 Narad
    March 15, 2014

    I’m calling a truce with you. Please stop doxxing me.

    I haven’t “doxxed” you, something that seems to elude you.

    I’ll quit mocking you if you agree to do the same.

    Mocking you? No, I’ll mock you as soon as you devolve into mockworthy form.

    I apologize for nothing and do not expect one from you, but I want to comment here without immediate hostility.

    I’m answering your comment.

    You said…

    “I think that what’s even worse is that [Maurice] is doing it for no reason other than personal publicity”

    I assure you from knowing him personally that his libertarian convictions and beliefs about civil liberties are deep-seated and sincere. You may disagree with a man’s actions, but attacking his intentions is just malicious speculation.

    No, it’s not. Any competent appellate lawyer should know full well that one doesn’t get to pretend that it’s a do-over from scratch, which is precisely what he’s done. Go read the memoranda and the decisions; they’ve all been linked to, although not in this thread. I’ve already done your homework; I’m not going to go buy a three-ring binder and make tabbed labels for your convenience.

    His current project is attacking the legality of traffic cameras. That is hardly a hot topic of self-promotion and demagoguery.

    I’m not sure where the “demagoguery” comes from, but it’s a fantastic choice for self-promotion. I can’t tell you how much raving I’ve heard on the radio of red-light cameras. Some of it is well reasoned (e.g., timing the lights for revenue leads to dangerous situations for the driver), some of it not so much.

    “Maurice has not yet been pressed into trying to run this line of shıt past a real live judge.”

    Maurice has argued in front of the Ohio Supreme Court 3 times. He is an accomplished and extremely principled lawyer.

    I noted above that he doesn’t have a bad track record. You seem to assume that I haven’t been following this since before he popped on the scene with the atrocious amicus brief. If anything, his general competence speaks even more to his conduct in the Hershberger case, which, you may have noticed, he has done exactly nothing to advance in favor of his clients aside from not charging them.

    In December 2013 he ran his “line of sh*t” against the unconstitutionality of the expansion of Medicaid in front of the Ohio Supreme Court. Of course he was correct about this as well. He is going against Republican governor Kasich.

    I take it that you mean “aside from the part where he lost.”

  86. #87 Narad
    March 15, 2014

    ^ Sorry about the b0rk3d blockquote.

  87. #88 Scientia Est
    March 16, 2014

    Orac would you still defend a law that allows authorities to abduct a child in a reverse circumstance in which science-based medicine is being practiced and the authorities adhere to alternative medicine?

    I don’t really understand why you asked this. I am pretty sure we both know he would not support such a law. And this supports your position how? “Alternative medicine” is an oxymoron. There is medicine and not medicine. A law subjecting a child to “alternative medicine” is tantamount to sanctioning torture. Such a law is morally abhorrent.

    Yet, I can object to such a law and still approve of a law that, in effect, removes children from such torture imposed by misguided parents. One would seem to follow from the other. Help me understand why this helps you, instead of being the reddest of straw-stuffed herrings.

    And seriously, is there a new form of Godwin’s Law we need here? Reducto ad Al Gore? Dude, libertarians are supposed to be good at arguing. That is just weak tea. Try again?

  88. #89 Scientia Est
    March 16, 2014

    Government authorities, by the way, won’t be making the call as to what is real medicine. Physicians will. No scary Uncle Sam Obamacare monster will be involved.

  89. #90 Narad
    March 16, 2014

    Medical neglect is NOT abuse despite your efforts to redefine the terms.

    Given that it can be and is prosecuted as such, the only one redefining terms is you.

  90. #91 Hawk Spitui
    March 16, 2014

    We can argue about what age children become sufficiently competent to make such decisions, but few would argue that an 11 or 12 year old is competent to make health decisions like deciding whether to do chemotherapy or not. That’s the parents’ job.

    So far, so good. But what happens when the parents fail, which is what is happening now?

    Shorter version: The decision is the parents’ responsibility, unless I disagree with their preferred course of action.

    Tell me this: you state that given the prescribed treatment, the chance of the child’s recovery would be 85%. Given that your position is essentially that you should be able to overrule the parent’s authority in making treatment decisions for their child, would you also be willing to be held legally liable should you enforce your preferred form of treatment and the child dies anyway? I submit that those who demand authority are also obliged to bear responsibility – and associated consequences.

  91. #92 Lawrence
    March 16, 2014

    Hmmmm…..85% chance of survival vs. 100% chance of death…..

  92. #93 Delysid
    March 17, 2014

    @sciena est

    So you want physicians to write the the laws?

    Alternative medicine practitioners are already writing laws through lobbying and they have already integrated into science based medicine. So are you saying you support the status quo?

    It’s hilarious to me that progressivism in America means defense of the status quo.

    But hey with your smug and vastly superior progressive intellect must be you have such a deep understanding of “scary monster Uncle Sam Obamacare monster” that I can’t possibly understand the greatness of it like you do.

  93. #94 Alain
    March 17, 2014

    And here we want to vote for a big government nationalizing everything (electric car mfg, tourism along national reserves, wind turbine, solar panels, etc…) he/she can to create more money and well paying jobs to workers nationwide and create a salary for the peoples and finally, a flat tax rate (say 11%) like Alberta which everyone pay, companies included. Free healthcare, free medication at lower cost to them (thanks to the PharmaQuebec initiative)…could we say free dental work? I know we can.

    Is that communism? 🙂

    Alain

  94. #95 JGC
    March 17, 2014

    <blockquote.Medical neglect is NOT abuse despite your efforts to redefine the terms. If someone doesn’t administer alternative medicine to their child, is that neglect?

    No, as there’s no evidence that withholding alternative will harm their child. It would be abuse to withold science based medical where there is evidence doing so will harm the child..

    Your entire political premise rests on the assumption that the authorities will be correct.

    No, it rests on demonstrated fact: with treatment she has an 85% chance of a lasting cure while without treatment it’s almost a certainty the cancer will recur, in a more resistant form, to kill her.

    Libertarians are proven to be justified in their slippery slope concerns about government authority time and time again.

    What historical example can you provide of a “libertarian state” performed as well if not better than all alternative forms of governance (like the US’s democratic republic)? Be specific.

    So you want physicians to write the the laws?

    Of course not–it’s the physician’s responsibility to identify an appropriate course of treatment. It’s the legislature’s responsibility to enact legislation to address parents who abuse their children by withholding mecidal care.

    Alternative medicine practitioners are already writing laws through lobbying and they have already integrated into science based medicine.

    And we both agree this is a bad thing which doesn’t in any ways speak to the problem of parents abusing their children by withholding medical care, right?

    So are you saying you support the status quo?

    If by “support the status quo” you mean “act to prevent chaild abuse through denial of access to medical care”, yes.

    But hey with your smug and vastly superior progressive intellect must be you have such a deep understanding of “scary monster Uncle Sam Obamacare monster” that I can’t possibly understand the greatness of it like you do.

    The Affordable Care Act isn’t the topic of discussion here, delysid.

  95. #96 Narad
    March 17, 2014

    Hey, D., could you get Maurice on the blower and find out whether his “pro bono” “representation” of the Hershbergers depends on “donations” to the 1851 Center from the “charities” set up by Augenstein and LeRoy Keim to collect money under the Sarah Hershberger brand?

  96. #97 Narad
    March 17, 2014

    ^ (Ohio nonprofits don’t seem to be subject to financial disclosures.)

  97. #98 Delysid
    March 17, 2014

    @Alain

    It’s not free. If socialized medicine was free, do you think anybody would oppose it?

    The costs of socialized medicine are hidden by a massive, complicated bureaucracy and a list of indirect and direct taxes.

    The negative long-term economic consequences are kept hidden from the public with monetary inflation. and other central banking manipulation.

  98. #99 Delysid
    March 17, 2014

    @JGC

    I have answered this question several times about the “libertarian society.”

    First off, society and government are not the same thing. If you do not distinguish society from government than there is nothing I can say to you.

    Libertarian society is everywhere, all of the time. Libertarianism is voluntary association.

    Libertarian government has been attempted (aka the United States Republic and those that followed) but they always devolve into authoritarianism.

    So what point are you trying to make?

    Progressivism: Let’s stop a small group of people from robbing and pillaging by giving a small group of people the power to rob and pillage and call it government.

  99. #100 Delysid
    March 17, 2014

    @JGC

    Also scientia est brought up Obamacare first.

    And by the way, you hinted at the nirvana fallacy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy

    I don’t understand anti-libertarians who criticize it based on the lack of libertarian governments. “Every government throughout history has been violent! How dare anyone advocate against such a thing!”

  100. #101 Renate
    March 17, 2014

    I’m affraid the lack of government will lead to a violent society, where the ones with the bigger guns rule.

  101. #102 Lawrence
    March 17, 2014

    So what our LSD-addled friend here just admitted that anytime a “Libertarian experiment” has been attempted, it has failed….

    Well, we at least got that out of the way.

  102. #103 Delysid
    March 17, 2014

    I don’t understand why anyone would gloat about the failure of a libertarian state. Are progressives happy that authoritarianism triumphs over liberty?

    In their defense of the state, all of the most, horrible things imagined by progressives that will happen in anarchy are but a fraction of what their precious government is already doing.

  103. #104 Delysid
    March 17, 2014

    @Lawrence

    You are correct. Authoritarianism defeats liberty. Good job. YOU WIN>

    Let’s all celebrate by paying our taxes, obeying tyranny, and telling stories about all of the terrible things that would happen in a free society!

  104. #105 Narad
    March 17, 2014

    Is there any chance we could stick to Sarah Hershberger rather than plating up opportunities for D. to promptly abandon his putative reason for showing up in the first place?

  105. #106 Delysid
    March 17, 2014

    @Renate

    A way to analyze animal cognition is the mirror test.

    The ultimate cognition test for humans is the ability to recognize this paradox…

    People are bad so we need a government of people are bad so we need a government of people are bad so we need a government of people are bad so we need a government of people are bad…

    In a free society might be violent, so if we guarantee that it violent through government, then we will prevent violence?

    Do I understand your argument?

  106. #107 Lawrence
    March 17, 2014

    @Narad – my apologies for getting off topic. At least I got something from him.

  107. #108 Narad
    March 17, 2014

    my apologies for getting off topic

    I didn’t mean to single you out; it was just clear that he was already, predictably, seizing upon scraps.

  108. […] who in 2013 was diagnosed with a rare but apparently “highly curable” cancer, has for much of the past year been the subject of a nationally-covered battle over […]

  109. #110 Shank
    March 18, 2014

    @Hawk Spitui:

    “Tell me this: you state that given the prescribed treatment, the chance of the child’s recovery would be 85%. Given that your position is essentially that you should be able to overrule the parent’s authority in making treatment decisions for their child, would you also be willing to be held legally liable should you enforce your preferred form of treatment and the child dies anyway? I submit that those who demand authority are also obliged to bear responsibility – and associated consequences.”

    Tell me, I should Orac bear such legal responsibility if, instead of giving their daughter useless herbs and spices, the Hershbergers simply couldn’t be bothered to get in their buggies and take Sarah to the hospital? ‘Cos, good intentions aside, it’s the same.

  110. #111 Rob
    March 18, 2014

    Thanks for the article.

    My understanding is that the Libertarian position is that ideally the matter should be decided by a jury if mediation among parties doesn’t work. (Intersecting parental, god-parental, extended family, physician caretaker and appointed guardian rights are conditional as they’re derived of the rights of the child to fair treatment, but all deserve consideration as giving different perspectives and charged with different things the jury must consider. ) I’m not clear that anything like this jury process happened from the articles. If not, that may have been the real problem.

    The Rand comments are just wrong. For info on people using voluntary Libertarian tools on similar and other issues worldwide, please see the non-partisan Libertarian International Organization @ http://www.Libertarian-International.org

  111. #112 Narad
    March 18, 2014

    I submit that those who demand authority are also obliged to bear responsibility – and associated consequences.

    In this case, the authority resides with the state: Sarah Hershberger is a ward of the court, regardless of who the guardian is. Here the court has the legal authority to consider whether guardianship weighs so heavily in the best interests of a child as to limit parental authority because it has explicitly been granted that power by the legislature (Ohio Rev. Code § 2111), who are elected – it is not a case of common-law parens patriae.

    Who do you submit should be held liable?

  112. #113 Evan I.
    United States
    March 18, 2014

    Reason.com lol. Here are two other health related gems from the past week or so: ‘Paleo Libertarians’ and ‘Kill the FDA (Before It Kills Again!): Dallas Buyers Club’. (Sadly, these are not articles from The Onion.) Gawd, libertarianism can be so painfully dogmatic. I don’t read much Reason bc I pretty much already know the conclusion and slant of every article. ‘Cause Big Government bad and Freedom good! And I like to like learn stuff, and nuance is my fave. So the article Orac discusses: talk about trying to shove everything into a pre existing framework. Every child has the freedom to have guardians that will not risk his or her life due to misinformation. Wait, scratch that. Because the alternative involves Government and, you know, Government bad.

  113. #114 somitcw
    May 1, 2014

    Why not compare valid statistic instead of the 85 percent hogwash? In the U.S.A.:
    There are about ten people per year reported to die of using prayer instead of allopathic “medicine”. Sarah Hershberger’s parents tried allopathic “medicine” but switched to prayer and traditional medicine.
    There are over 100,000 people that die per year of FDA approved dope.
    There are even more than that that die each year of allopathic “medicine” mistakes.
    There are over 750,000 people that die each year of cancer while under allopathic “medicine” “care”.
    Neither the AMA, FDA, NIH, CDC, nor other allopathic “medicine” institutions argue the statistics.
    Should an allopathic “doctor”, a.k.a. allopathic sales droid, be the one to make the final decision or should Sarah Hershberger and her parents have the final decision?

  114. #115 Chris,
    May 1, 2014

    somitcw, citation needed.

  115. #116 squirrelelite
    May 1, 2014

    @somitcw,
    You need 4 citations for your claims.

    What statistics do the AMA, FDA, NIH and CDC not argue?

    Actually, a lot of time and effort and money go into collecting the statistics that allows doctors like the author of this blog to make an informed estimate that the 5 year survival rate for standard treatment for Sarah’s cancer is 85%.

    What statistics can you cite for using prayer to cure such a cancer?
    Most of your claims ignore the fact that those people are being treated because they have a substantial probability of killing them.

    Standard care for cancer is actually reducing those death rates, as shown here:
    http://www.cancer.org/cancer/news/news/annualreport-u.s-cancer-death-rates-decline-but-disparities-remain

    A total of 1,596,670 new cancer cases and 571,950 deaths from cancer are projected to occur in the U.S. in 2011. Between 1990 and 2007, the most recent year for which data is available, overall death rates decreased by about 22% in men and 14% in women. This translates to about 898,000 deaths from cancer that were avoided. The American Cancer Society credits improvements in cancer prevention, early detection, and treatment.

    I pray, I hope, I wish for a lot of things.
    But, when I get sick, I rely on standard medicine because I have evidence that it works.

  116. #117 herr doktor bimler
    May 1, 2014

    Sarah Hershberger’s parents […] switched to prayer and traditional medicine

    You mean
    high doses of vitamin C and B17, oxygen therapy, detoxification methods, as well as the IV chelation to deliver some of these to Sarah’s bloodstream? Dare I ask which “tradition” these came from?

  117. #118 Narad
    May 1, 2014

    Should an allopathic “doctor”, a.k.a. allopathic sales droid, be the one to make the final decision or should Sarah Hershberger and her parents have the final decision?

    Fortunately, at the end of the day, Sarah is still a ward of the court, so you lose.

  118. #119 Narad
    May 1, 2014

    In other news, Medina County picked the wrong new vendor.

  119. #120 somitcw
    May 1, 2014

    Chris posted, “somitcw, citation needed.’.
    Citation for what? The 85 percent came from the article.
    The ten per year dying for only prayer?
    How about the American Cancer Society claim that,
    “A more recent study found that more than 200 children had died of treatable illnesses in the United States over the past thirty years because their parents relied on spiritual healing rather than conventional medical treatment.”.
    The ACS “conventional” means allopathic, not traditional.
    A claim from elsewhere was that 73 children died over an eleven year period.
    Yes, my ten per year was a bit high but still in the ballpark but you could research your own question which is better than believing my research.
    If you can ask a specific question, I will try to do your research for you.
    If you can’t compose a question, I won’t be able to do your research for you.
    Which number that I posted look incorrect? Not which hurts preconceived notions.
    Can anyone really believe that more people die from being prayed for than people die from allopathic “medicine”?
    .
    squirrelelite posted, “Actually, a lot of time and effort and money go into collecting the statistics that allows doctors like the author of this blog to make an informed estimate that the 5 year survival rate for standard treatment for Sarah’s cancer is 85%.”.
    The strong Amish farm girl in question could not tolerate the second course of chemo and you expect people to believe that 85 percent of people survive five years of it and don’t die until the chemo is stopped? How about some real numbers? How many people start chemo? How many drop out after the first session, the second, …, the fifth? How many years does the multiple sessions take? Do any live more than a few months after the last dose?
    Ignoring that it is outlawed in the U.S.A. and highly prosecuted, wouldn’t traditional medicine be quicker, cheaper, and much more effective?
    .
    squirrelelite posted, “What statistics can you cite for using prayer to cure such a cancer?”.
    No one said that Sarah Hershberger’s parents were using only prayer. I speculate that they also prayed early on so the only change may have been a switch from allopathic “medicine” to traditional medicine. If she lives one more month, June, she will prove the allopaths wrong. The allopaths need to hurry and ramp up the attack against her traditional treatment.
    Can you or anyone prove that someone would have died if not prayed for? The why ask me to prove what no one can?
    .
    squirrelelite posted, “Standard care for cancer is actually reducing those death rates, as shown here:”.
    A hundred years ago, the standard treatment for cancer, induced fever, cured more than half so not much of an improvement. Allopathic is not about curing anything, that was traditional medicine. Allopathic actually causes issues and treats symptoms and treats and treats. That method now gives allopaths over one-sixth of the U.S. economy with worse infant mortality and worse longevity than countries that pay less than half as much.

  120. #121 Chris,
    May 2, 2014

    somitcw: “Citation for what? The 85 percent came from the article.”
    For the rest of the silly claims.

    “Yes, my ten per year was a bit high but still in the ballpark but you could research your own question which is better than believing my research.”

    No, you need to show your work. This is why we ask for citations.

    “I speculate…”

    So what? We don’t care about your opinions unless they are supported by facts.

    “That method now gives allopaths over one-sixth of the U.S. economy with worse infant mortality and worse longevity than countries that pay less than half as much.”

    Except the USA has a different standard for the definition of live births, which even includes one pound preemies that have taken at least a few breaths. Plus its backward idiotic non-universal health care system.

  121. #122 squirrelelite
    May 2, 2014

    @somitcw,
    The 85% number comes from patients who complete the consolidation phase, which was added because the recurrence rate for patients who only receive the initial phase of chemotherapy is so high.
    Unfortunately, chemotherapy is not always easy or pleasant, although in many cases it has gotten better.
    But dying is worse.
    If you want to convince us that something else such as what Sarah’s parents chose is better, you need to provide a convincing argument and data to support it.
    Your tossing out odd, unrelated numbers is like comparing Jonathan apples from my grandfather’s orchard to State Fair prize winning pumpkins.

  122. #123 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    herr doktor bimler posted, “You mean high doses of vitamin C and B17, oxygen therapy, detoxification methods, as well as the IV chelation to deliver some of these to Sarah’s bloodstream? Dare I ask which “tradition” these came from?”.
    I would not recommend high doses of vitamin C to treat all cancers. High doses of vitamin C is thought to cause some cancers.
    The only thing that I know is going for B-17 is that the FDA and American Cancer Society are fighting against it. It must have some use for something if both are blocking its use.
    .
    If I could get cancer, I would match my cancer to the appropriate traditional treatment. Perhaps first a change of diet for more vegetables and then may check Chinese herbal medicine? They have over five thousand preparations and some have been used for thousands of years with no harm. Some like Artemisinin are FDA approved but don’t hold the FDA approval against them. Hemp oil is claimed to be effective for some cancers so I could move to a freer state? Again, I would research the safest and most effective treatment that matches the specific cancer. Knowing that almost everyone that I know that has died, have died from allopathic treatment. I would not put allopathic “medicine” on the top of my list as being safe or effective. I still would consult an allopathic sales droid to get their opinion but understand that there opinion is only their money making opinion. Same as a TV sales droid.

  123. #124 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    Narad posted, “Fortunately, at the end of the day, Sarah is still a ward of the court, so you lose.”.
    The last I heard, she escaped.
    That means that Sarah Hershberger wins.

  124. #125 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    squirrelelite posted among other things, “If you want to convince us that something else such as what Sarah’s parents chose is better, you need to provide a convincing argument and data to support it.”.
    I stated facts. If you are not convinced, tough.
    I will say that in one month, Sarah Hershberger’ and her parents will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the allopaths attacking them were wrong. The one year that the allopaths claimed was the maximum time she could live without them assaulting her more is almost up.
    If allopaths killing a million people per year but prayer killing only ten per year can’t convince you, I surely won’t try.
    I just don’t feel up to fighting that type of logic.

  125. #126 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    Chris posted among other things,”No, you need to show your work. This is why we ask for citations.”.
    What ?work? would like me to post?
    Which CDC, AMA, FDA, ACS, NIH, etc. citation do you want me to find you a link to?
    Wouldn’t you believe it better if you came up with your own search and found what you are trying to think about instead of me trying to guess?
    None of the numbers that I posted are secret.

  126. #127 ann
    May 2, 2014

    Can anyone really believe that more people die from being prayed for than people die from allopathic “medicine”?

    Have you considered the possibility of other contributing factors?

  127. #128 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    Chris posted among other things, “Except the USA has a different standard for the definition of live births, which even includes one pound preemies that have taken at least a few breaths. Plus its backward idiotic non-universal health care system.”.
    I assume that you are trying to tie the live birth excuse to somehow be related to longevity or infant mortality.
    Excuses are fine but wouldn’t facts be better arguments?
    Prayer kills almost no one.
    Real milk kills almost no one per year.
    Hemp oil kills almost no one per year.
    Herbs kills almost no one per year.
    Tradition medicine kills almost no one per year.
    Using anyone’s numbers including the allopath numbers, allopathic “medicine” kills hundreds of thousands per year.
    .
    I did know someone that later died in a traffic accident so believe that allopathic medicine was not involved in causing the death, but I could be wrong.

  128. #129 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    ann posted, “Have you considered the possibility of other contributing factors?”.
    Like what?
    I’ve seen too many people die from allopathic “medicine” mistakes, stupidity, and worse to suddenly start believing in fairy tales.
    Allopaths sales droids are dangerous.
    Allopathic hospitals are dangerous.
    Allopathic dope is dangerous.
    Buyer beware.

  129. #130 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 2, 2014

    Hey, moron:

    Nobody is reading your idiocy after they see the word “allopathic”. They know anyone using that made-up word has nothing to say that is of any interest whatsoever.

  130. #131 novalox
    May 2, 2014

    @somitcw

    [citation needed] within 3 posts for your assertions, or we can assume that you have no facts backing up your claims and that you are lying to us.

  131. #132 Shay
    May 2, 2014

    “Prayer kills almost no one.
    Real milk kills almost no one per year.
    Hemp oil kills almost no one per year.
    Herbs kills almost no one per year.
    Tradition medicine kills almost no one per year.”

    They don’t cure anyone, either.

  132. #133 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    novalox posted, “[citation needed] within 3 posts for your assertions, or we can assume that you have no facts backing up your claims and that you are lying to us.”.
    I have posted all citations that were requested.
    If people want request other citations without giving me a clue to what they want a citation for, they will get what they are asking for, which is nothing.
    Is this requesting for citations without saying what they want, just obfuscation to hide that people don’t like the facts but cannot state a reason that they hate the truth?

  133. #134 AdamG
    May 2, 2014

    If people want request other citations without giving me a clue to what they want a citation for, they will get what they are asking for, which is nothing.

    Ok then, let’s start with this:

    A hundred years ago, the standard treatment for cancer, induced fever, cured more than half so not much of an improvement.

  134. #135 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    Shay posted, “They don’t cure anyone, either.”.
    If there is no competition, then why does allopathic “medicine” see the need to outlaw and highly prosecute anyone trying to get access to traditional medicine?
    If real milk, hemp oil, herbs, and other traditional treatment doesn’t harm or help anyone, then why does allopathic “medicine” have the U.S.A. and nation state governments spend billions of U.S. dollars to lockup people that are neither helping nor hurting anyone? We have millions of people locked up.

  135. #136 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    AdamG posted, “Ok then, let’s start with this:
    A hundred years ago, the standard treatment for cancer, induced fever, cured more than half so not much of an improvement.”.
    Are you trying to be silly? Is there someone in the world that doesn’t know that fever is needed for cancer remission?
    Even allopaths know that and fight against fever anyway that they can to prolong cancer treatment.
    Use any web browser and search for:
    cancer, induce fever
    Okay, I said a hundred years ago but it really started in the 1880s by Dr. William B. Coley but again a hundred years ago and the 1880s are close. Again, I was in the ballpark.
    Of course cancer was rarer in humans before non-therapeutic vaccines. Everything from scrapping cow plus into people’s skin, to injecting them with monkey cells, to injecting them with SV40 has caused much higher cancer rates now. One of the newest assault isn’t even a vaccine. Non-therapeutic vitamin K injections given at birth have been credited with increased juvenile cancer.

  136. #137 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    Should we try to get back on topic?
    Discussions about Sarah Hershberger’s cancer would be better than what we have been posting in the last few comments.
    I will of course continue to provide citations when anyone specifies what I posted that they want a citation for.

  137. #138 herr doktor bimler
    May 2, 2014

    somitcw:
    “I would not recommend high doses of vitamin C to treat all cancers. High doses of vitamin C is thought to cause some cancers.
    The only thing that I know is going for B-17 is that the FDA and American Cancer Society are fighting against it. It must have some use for something if both are blocking its use.”

    You described Sarah H. as receiving “traditional medicine”. The treatment she has been receiving through the Mexican pest-hole consists of “high doses of vitamin C and B17, oxygen therapy, detoxification methods, as well as the IV chelation to deliver some of these to Sarah’s bloodstream.” Now you appear to be admitting that these are not part of any long-standing cultural or ethnopharmacological tradition. I am forced towards the suspicion that you are making stuff up as you go along.

  138. #139 Narad
    May 2, 2014

    The last I heard, she escaped.

    You mean you popped in here, started babbling, and you’re not even keeping up with the story?

  139. #140 The Grouchybeast
    May 2, 2014

    Citations needed:

    The source of your claim that the survival rate for lymphoblastic leukemia with the full course of chemotherapy is not 85%.

    The source for your claim that 100,000 people die because of FDA-approved drugs.

    The source for your claim that ‘even more’ people die because of allopathic mistakes.

    The source for your claim that over 750,000 people die every year of cancer while under medical care.

    If those are indeed facts, then I’m sure you’ll have no problem finding the source that caused you to think they are facts. After all, facts don’t just appear magically in our heads, they must have come from somewhere.

  140. #141 NumberWang
    May 2, 2014

    @Somitcw….citation, you keep using that word but I don’t think you know what it means. Hint, ‘everyone knows that’ isn’t a citation.

  141. #142 Krebiozen
    May 2, 2014

    somitcw,

    Using anyone’s numbers including the allopath numbers, allopathic “medicine” kills hundreds of thousands per year.

    “Allopathic” medicine saves millions of lives every year, far more than those that die despite treatment or because of side-effects or mistakes. That’s why we have such an aging population in the developed world (and increasingly in the developing world). There are billions of people alive today that would have died without modern scientific medicine. How can anyone possibly claim otherwise? The evidence is indisputable.

    Take just one example, anticoagulant drugs may kill thousands of patients every year, but they save millions of lives. What does alternative medicine have to offer a patient with a clotting disorder that will very likely kill the patient?

    You could say the same for hypoglycemic drugs that save millions from death or other effects of diabetes, but also cause many deaths. Effective analgesic drugs have transformed the lives of millions, but also cause many deaths from adverse side effects. Again, alternative medicine has nothing effective to offer.

    Why do some people like to point at the failures of modern medicine while ignoring its extraordinary successes? Are they so profoundly ignorant of medical history they are unaware of these successes?

  142. #143 herr doktor bimler
    May 2, 2014

    somitcw

    Are you trying to be silly? Is there someone in the world that doesn’t know that fever is needed for cancer remission?
    Even allopaths know that and fight against fever anyway that they can to prolong cancer treatment.
    Use any web browser and search for:
    cancer, induce fever
    Okay, I said a hundred years ago but it really started in the 1880s by Dr. William B. Coley but again a hundred years ago and the 1880s are close. Again, I was in the ballpark.

    Dude, you seem to have confused “supporting a claim with relevant citations” with “jerking off”.

  143. #144 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    May 2, 2014

    @somitcw,

    If there is no competition, then why does allopathic “medicine” see the need to outlaw and highly prosecute anyone trying to get access to traditional medicine?
    If real milk, hemp oil, herbs, and other traditional treatment doesn’t harm or help anyone, then why does allopathic “medicine” have the U.S.A. and nation state governments spend billions of U.S. dollars to lockup people that are neither helping nor hurting anyone? We have millions of people locked up.

    By “real milk”, I presume you mean unpasteurized milk. Unpasteurized milk cannot be sold across state lines, though there are at least 29 states where it is available by some means. Raw milk consumption has been the source of infections from campylobacter, salmonella, e. coli, and listeria; historically it carried the risk of causing tuberculosis. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3461852/ for a quick overview and references to both medical and legal history.

    Herbs are not illegal as a class, though some herbs are illegal or otherwise controlled; it is perfectly legal for a competent adult to treat him or herself with herbs if he or she desires. There is no good evidence that herbs are a safe and effective treatment for cancer.

    Hemp oil is, in fact, legal in the US. See http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/pressrel/pr100901.html.

    Traditional medicine is, on the whole, legal in the US for a variety of traditions.

    What is not legal is to sell these products with unproven claims of benefits and safety.

  144. #145 Helianthus
    May 2, 2014

    To answer about X “kills almost no one.” from somitcw

    First, “almost” is not the same as “none”. It’s a bit hypocritical to lump all mainstream medicine-related deaths together (including road accident, as you joked about), and then claim a free pass for your preferred form of woo because the absolute numbers are lower. Looking at relative numbers would be more enlightening (i.e. ratio of number killed over number treated)

    Second, the treatments themselves could be harmless enough, but if they are useless and delay – or prevent altogether – the use of something which works, then your harmless hemp oil extract is still directly responsible for harm which could have been avoided.

    The curious reader is invited to peruse the following website for a few examples of harm coming from harmless cures.
    http://whatstheharm.net/

  145. #146 ann
    May 2, 2014

    ann posted, “Have you considered the possibility of other contributing factors?”.
    Like what?
    I’ve seen too many people die from allopathic “medicine” mistakes, stupidity, and worse to suddenly start believing in fairy tales.

    Like any other cause of death you care to name, assuming there are any that you don’t regard as fairy tales.

    Because just in case it’s escaped your attention: People receiving medical attention are usually already sick.

    Or try looking at it this way:

    If I could get cancer, I would match my cancer to the appropriate traditional treatment. Perhaps first a change of diet for more vegetables and then may check Chinese herbal medicine? They have over five thousand preparations and some have been used for thousands of years with no harm.

    And yet, millions of people of all ages died over the course of those millennia. From numerous causes, including cancer.

    ^^Like that.

  146. #147 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    herr doktor bimler posted, “You described Sarah H. as receiving “traditional medicine”…
    Yes, she did and the cancer appears to have gone away. She received a vegatable diet like one of the treatments that I had suggested might be used. The natural “supplements” may of may not have been herbs that I mentioned. I’m neither a traditional doctor nor chemo-dope pushing allopathic sales droid so am not involved in suggesting traditional cures or using the courts to force allopathic “treatments”. The speculation that she took also vitamin C and “vitamin” B-17, in this case did not stop the cure. To quote where you started quoting but cut off:
    “He also explained how the doctors arrived at a cancer-free status. She is now on a special diet including lots of vegetables and raw foods and taking special natural supplements, as prescribed by the foreign doctors.”.

  147. #148 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    Mephistopheles O’Brien posted among other things, “Hemp oil is, in fact, legal in the US.”. See http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/pressrel/pr100901.html “.
    Your referenced page does not agree with you. There are two mentioned of “oil”.
    “Also in the lawful category are personal care products that contain oil from sterilized cannabis seeds, such as soaps, lotions, and shampoos.”.
    and “salad oil” is in a list on what the DEA claims as illegal.
    The first is not oil, but a product that contains sterilized oil. Not the sterilize that allopaths were trying to do to Sarah Hershberger with chemo but the type that removes benefits from hemp oil.
    The second clearly says “illegal”.
    If you grow hemp in your back yard and produce therapeutic hemp oil and give it away to friends or people treating a medical issue, the government will claim that you broke laws.
    They will of course ignore the immutable Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence and claim that lower laws override both.
    Where can people buy hemp oil to treat medical issues? If it is legal but the government blocking buying it and prosecuting parents for allowing their children benefits of it, is it really legal? People trying to add a tiny bit of medical freedom include:
    http://finance.yahoo.com/video/marijuana-bill-change-schedule-class-192213492.html
    To see what happens to people that even question why hemp oil is illegal:
    http://www.ganjanews.org/news/mother-investigated-over-marijuana-treatments-for-son.html

  148. #149 ann
    May 2, 2014

    They will of course ignore the immutable Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence and claim that lower laws override both.

    Which part of either prohibits Congress from passing laws against growing hemp in your backyard?

    You forgot the Constitution, btw.

  149. #150 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    May 2, 2014

    True, hemp oil is illegal if it contains THC. It is not illegal if it does not. If you mean a particular form of hemp oil, please share.

    It is illegal to grow hemp in the US by federal law.

    Please provide some reference to show that:
    – “allopaths” were trying to sterilize Sarah Hershberger with chemo
    – that sterilized hemp oil has had its benefits removed.

    Please also show where the bill of rights and the declaration of independence specify that you may grow hemp in your back yard.

  150. #151 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    The Grouchybeast posted, “Citations needed:
    The source of your claim that the survival rate for lymphoblastic leukemia with the full course of chemotherapy is not 85%.”
    The article above also says 80% and both numbers can’t be exact. Sarah Hershberger’s parents were originally told that Sarah would die in two weeks. The allopaths later said one year. The year will be up next month. The allopathic numbers are a crap shoot and constantly changing. Why do you believe in randomly picking one of the numbers and holding it up as gospel is valid?
    .
    The Grouchybeast posted, “The source for your claim that 100,000 people die because of FDA-approved drugs.”.
    You cannot search the FDA web site yourself?
    http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DevelopmentApprovalProcess/DevelopmentResources/DrugInteractionsLabeling/ucm114848.htm
    “Why Learn about Adverse Drug Reactions (ADR)?
    Institute of Medicine, National Academy Press, 2000
    Lazarou J et al. JAMA 1998;279(15):1200–1205
    Gurwitz JH et al. Am J Med 2000;109(2):87–94
    Over 2 MILLION serious ADRs yearly
    100,000 DEATHS yearly
    ADRs 4th leading cause of death ahead of pulmonary disease, diabetes, AIDS, pneumonia, accidents and automobile deaths
    Ambulatory patients ADR rate—unknown
    Nursing home patients ADR rate— 350,000 yearly”
    The FDA does stretch the truth. Allopathic “medicine” is the fourth “reported” cause of death in the U.S.A. as “reported” by allopathic “medicine”. If the truth be known, they win first place.
    .
    The Grouchybeast posted, “The source for your claim that ‘even more’ people die because of allopathic mistakes.”.
    This is simple stuff. Why can’t you go to the CDC web site and do your own searches.
    CDC mentions IOM reports but a good consolidation of numbers is:
    http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/mistakes/common.htm
    Estimates are all over. From 44,000-98,000 to 225,000.
    As I mentioned, most people that I knew that died, died from allopathic medicine, not the initial issue being treated. In the U.S.A., treatment is more fatal than disease.
    .
    The Grouchybeast posted, “The source for your claim that over 750,000 people die every year of cancer while under medical care.”.
    The American Cancer Society claims that I over stated the number:
    http://www.cancer.org/research/cancerfactsstatistics/cancerfactsfigures2014/index
    “In 2014, there will be an estimated 1,665,540 new cancer cases diagnosed and 585,720 cancer deaths in the US. Cancer remains the second most common cause of death in the US, accounting for nearly 1 of every 4 deaths.”.
    The CDC claims is even further off my number. 301,032
    Of course, my number included people that had cancer and died of treatment instead of just having people that had cancer and died of cancer which is tiny.
    .
    The Grouchybeast posted, “If those are indeed facts, then I’m sure you’ll have no problem finding the source that caused you to think they are facts. After all, facts don’t just appear magically in our heads, they must have come from somewhere.”.
    .
    You may need to learn how to search allopathic web sites yourself?
    My post are now needing approval. I assUme that I have answered too many question so people may need to start checking the FDA, CDC, and other allopathic “medicine” web sites for themselves.
    I’ll be cutting replies short and will stop replying to posts that don’t ask for specific citations.

  151. #152 Lawrence
    May 2, 2014

    Well, from a historical perspective, the Declaration of Independence doesn’t apply to our current governmental structure or legal framework – and the “immutable” Bill of Rights are constantly redefined / refined as times change as well….so not exactly a valid argument.

  152. #153 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    ann posted, “Which part of either prohibits Congress from passing laws against growing hemp in your backyard?
    You forgot the Constitution, btw.”.
    .
    The federal government has no authority than what not given in the U.S. Constitution. Tenth amendment:
    “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
    Blocking food and medicine that individuals want also violates unalienable rights and the fourth amendment.
    Many other issues but I’m trying to cut my replies short.
    .
    P.S. Where I am, part of the time before the U.S. Constitution, people were required to grow hemp. Now with the perversion of the U.S. Constitution, we are prohibited from growing hemp. Just how much freedom was added?

  153. #154 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    Mephistopheles O’Brien posted, “True, hemp oil is illegal if it contains THC. It is not illegal if it does not. If you mean a particular form of hemp oil, please share.”.
    You can’t grow hemp that does not contain THC. If hemp oil has been stripped of hemp, then it is not hemp oil and might not be the best thing to treat medical issues with.
    .
    Mephistopheles O’Brien posted, “It is illegal to grow hemp in the US by federal law.”.
    That is what said. But the lower laws do not match the Bill of Rights nor the Declaration of Independence.
    Mephistopheles O’Brien posted, “Please provide some reference to show that:
    – “allopaths” were trying to sterilize Sarah Hershberger with chemo”.
    Ha ha ha, to get back on topic:
    http://banoosh.com/blog/2013/12/11/ohio-ends-stand-off-over-amish-girl-forced-chemo-case/
    “a court ordering a little girl to be ripped away from her loving and competent parents, and forced to submit to procedures that could kill or sterilize her, simply because her parents sought to first pursue a less invasive treatment option”.
    Chemo only has a reported 50 percent chance of sterilizing her and various percentages of killing her, but why shouldn’t she be allowed to have safer and more effective traditional medical treatment?
    .
    Mephistopheles O’Brien posted, “- that sterilized hemp oil has had its benefits removed.”.
    Okay, you trying eating the soap made using a small amount of sterilized previous hemp oil and see if it cures anything. You will not notice any benefits. Trust me on this one.
    .
    Mephistopheles O’Brien posted, “Please also show where the bill of rights and the declaration of independence specify that you may grow hemp in your back yard.”.
    Please see my last post to “ann” for that answer.

  154. #155 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    Lawrence posted, “Well, from a historical perspective, the Declaration of Independence doesn’t apply to our current governmental structure or legal framework – and the “immutable” Bill of Rights are constantly redefined / refined as times change as well….so not exactly a valid argument.”.
    I have to agree with you.
    Since the U.S.A. has turned his back on the law, we have lost much freedom and the economy is in the toilet.
    I don’t believe that the U.S.A. will ever recover.
    U.S.A. – 1776-04-07 until 2001-10-26 – R.I.P.
    We now have people complaining that a family seeking safe and effective medical treatment as: “medical neglect of Sarah Hershberger”.
    Allopaths gave her first two weeks to live and then after the first and partial second chemo assault, stretched that to one year which is now almost up.
    A family devoting most of their their time and money for safe and effective medical treatment is not committing medical neglect. A family that turns their child over to the court system and to allopaths without parental supervision is committing medical neglect.

  155. #156 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    Sorry for the typo. It should be:
    U.S.A. – 1776-07-04 until 2001-10-26 – R.I.P.
    I need rest and other things so will be offline for awhile.

  156. #157 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    May 2, 2014

    somitcw – perhaps fine distinctions in language are beyond you, but there is a difference between “trying to sterilizer her” and “trying to cure her, but the treatment has a small chance of the unfortunate side effect of sterilizing her”

  157. #158 ann
    May 2, 2014

    The federal government has no authority than what not given in the U.S. Constitution. Tenth amendment:
    “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

    Yes, I know. But the Constitution delegates the power to pass laws to Congress and/or the States.

    That’s where the laws you’re objecting to came from. They were enacted via the exercise of constitutionally mandated powers.

    Blocking food and medicine that individuals want also violates unalienable rights and the fourth amendment.

    The unalienable rights of individuals don’t include getting whatever food and medicine they want, whenever and however they want it. Acting like a spoiled two-year-old hadn’t been invented yet. So that was not an enlightenment ideal.

    I have no idea how the fourth amendment comes into it. Where’s the search, seizure or invasion of privacy?

    .
    P.S. Where I am, part of the time before the U.S. Constitution, people were required to grow hemp. Now with the perversion of the U.S. Constitution, we are prohibited from growing hemp. Just how much freedom was added?

  158. #159 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    Mephistopheles O’Brien posted, “somitcw – perhaps fine distinctions in language are beyond you, but there is a difference between “trying to sterilizer her” and “trying to cure her, but the treatment has a small chance of the unfortunate side effect of sterilizing her””.
    While I understand the distinction, the allopaths know what their assaults could cause. Almost certainly sickness, about 50-50 chance of sterilization, and possibly treatment caused death. It’s about allopathic income, not about doing any favors for Sarah Hershberger.
    .
    I will really be offline for many hours. Bye.

  159. #160 ann
    May 2, 2014

    Oops. Forgot.

    P.S. Where I am, part of the time before the U.S. Constitution, people were required to grow hemp. Now with the perversion of the U.S. Constitution, we are prohibited from growing hemp. Just how much freedom was added?

    Okay. Try to stay with me here:

    Article 1. Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution states:

    All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

    That means they enact laws.

    So how is it a perversion of the Constitution when they enact them?

  160. #161 ann
    May 2, 2014

    I will really be offline for many hours. Bye.

    It’s funny how conveniently that always seems to happen.

  161. #162 Chris,
    May 2, 2014

    somitcw, just answer this simple question:

    What is the chance of success that young Sarah has with the cancer treatment that her parents want versus the treatment recommendations from Akron Children’s Hospital?

    Provide the PubMed indexed studies from reputable qualified researchers showing the efficacy of the treatments her parents prefer. Do not try the “medicine bad therefor this alternative works” ploy. You need to prove that her parents are making a better choice.

  162. #163 LW
    May 2, 2014

    “Of course, my number included people that had cancer and died of treatment instead of just having people that had cancer and died of cancer which is tiny.”

    Funnily enough, most people who develop cancer in First World countries seek treatment. They may, rarely, die of the treatment itself, but more often they die while under treatment (of the cancer or other causes), which people like somitcw interpret as dying from instead of dying while under treatment.

    Mercifully few die of cancer without receiving any treatment for it, as somicw would prefer.

  163. #164 novalox
    May 2, 2014

    @somitcw

    You do know that your citations do not agree with what you are saying.

    Also, your consistent refusal to answer questions asked of you to back up your extraordinary claims have been noted.

  164. #165 AdamG
    May 2, 2014

    Are you trying to be silly? Is there someone in the world that doesn’t know that fever is needed for cancer remission?

    Thats not what you claimed. You said that a hundred years ago, induced fever “cured more than half” of cancers. Do you have evidence to support this, or is it completely made up?

    Let’s move on to this claim:

    Everything from scrapping cow plus into people’s skin, to injecting them with monkey cells, to injecting them with SV40 has caused much higher cancer rates now

    Evidence for this please? Or is it just as made up as the other claims?

  165. #166 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    ann posted, “Okay. Try to stay with me here:
    Article 1. Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution states:
    All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.
    That means they enact laws.”.
    So how is it a perversion of the Constitution when they enact them?”.
    You may have misread. “herein granted” means that the legislative power is limited to what the U.S. Constitution authorizes.
    You might want to also look at the limit specified in the tenth amendment which is part of of the immutable Bill of Rights and I have already posted.
    The criminals that have taken control of the U.S. government have nullified the rule of law so the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights are not being followed.
    Sarah Hershberger and her parents no longer have the unalienable right to life so can be forcible killed with chemo. They no longer have the unalienable right to liberty to make medical or nutritional decisions for themselves. They no longer have the unalienable right to pursue what they believe is their dream. They are not secure in their persons from being seized without probable cause. None of us are.
    .
    I have people to do and places to see. I am trying to go and will soon. Please do a few of your own searches so I don’t need to use too much my time today.

  166. #167 Lawrence
    May 2, 2014

    The Declaration of Independence is not a governing document of this country….that’s just a fact.

  167. #168 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    Chris posted, “somitcw, just answer this simple question:
    What is the chance of success that young Sarah has with the cancer treatment that her parents want versus the treatment recommendations from Akron Children’s Hospital?
    Provide the PubMed indexed studies from reputable qualified researchers showing the efficacy of the treatments her parents prefer. Do not try the “medicine bad therefor this alternative works” ploy. You need to prove that her parents are making a better choice.”.
    The chance of a couple of years of chemo causing sickness, sterilization, and perhaps death to perhaps live five years is stated in the article as 80 percent and also stated as 85 percent. I don’t know if they count people outright killed with chemo, people that must stop chemo like Sarah Hershberger, and people that seek traditional medicine after finding our about the problems with chemo.
    Sarah Hershberger’s treatment is between Sarah Hershberger, her parents, and the traditional doctors or allopathic sales droid as they believe is best for Sarah Hershberger. It is not my decision, the courts decision, or the fox in the hen house allopathic “medicine” decision. Sarah Hershberger and her parents did try the dope pushing allopathic sales droid method and should have the freedom to try traditional medicine and switch back and forth as much as they need to for Sarah Hershberger’s health.
    Sorry for the short answer, but I have other things that need my attention today.

  168. #169 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 2, 2014

    The criminals that have taken control of the U.S. government have nullified the rule of law so the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights are not being followed.

    Hey, genius: The Declaration of Independence is rhetoric, not a legally binding document. Nobody has to “follow” it.

  169. #170 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 2, 2014

    Sorry, Lawrence: slow fingers today.

  170. #171 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    novalox posted, “@somitcw
    You do know that your citations do not agree with what you are saying.
    Also, your consistent refusal to answer questions asked of you to back up your extraordinary claims have been noted.”.
    What question did I refuse to answer? If you check, I have many posts answering many questions. If I missed one, why not let us know which one?
    That is to say, instead of claiming that I am bad which adds nothing to the discussion, let people know how I am bad.

  171. #172 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 2, 2014

    And he’s STILL using this ridiculous made-up word “allopathic”! Just how stupid are you, somitcw?

  172. #173 novalox
    May 2, 2014

    @somitcw

    You still haven’t answered Chris’ or MOB’s questions. In particular, you have not provided any actual citations or evidence, which is really telling for you and your assertions.

  173. #174 AdamG
    May 2, 2014

    somitcw is a creature of habit, it seems…posting erroneous claims and then either retreating or shifting goalposts when asked for citations. Check out its comments here:

    http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-parents-fight-law-over-girl-39-forced-160122074.html

  174. #175 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted, “The criminals that have taken control of the U.S. government have nullified the rule of law so the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights are not being followed.
    Hey, genius: The Declaration of Independence is rhetoric, not a legally binding document. Nobody has to “follow” it.”
    Neither is the Bill of Rights being followed.
    Neither is the U.S. Constitution being followed.
    I already noted that more than once. If I respond enough, will you believe that the rule of law is dead?
    Sarah Hershberger forced allopathic treatment attempts are just more proof that the rule of law is dead. We have no unalienable rights. We have no protection from unreasonable searches and seizures.
    The government can “legally” ignore the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights to lock us up indefinitely without charge or even kill us without charge. That is the “law”, not the guarantees in the Bill of Rights and unalienable rights stated in the Declaration of Independence. The government can force “medical” treatment against us. They can add toxic waste to our water. The perversion of the U.S. legal system has ended our freedoms and destroyed our economy.
    As long as Sarah Hershberger can be treated the way she is being treated, we all have lost freedom.
    U.S.A. – 1776-07-04 until 2001-10-26 – R.I.P.
    .
    Good-bye for the day. I really mean it this time.

  175. #176 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    novalox posted, “@somitcw
    You still haven’t answered Chris’ or MOB’s questions. In particular, you have not provided any actual citations or evidence, which is really telling for you and your assertions.”
    .
    I’m gone and have no intention to researching what you believe that I did not answer from some mob or other persons. If there was an answer missing, you could post the question and not request me to read your mind.
    Good-night.

  176. #177 Chris,
    May 2, 2014

    somitcw, just answer this simple question:

    What is the chance of success that young Sarah has with the cancer treatment that her parents want versus the treatment recommendations from Akron Children’s Hospital?

    Provide the PubMed indexed studies from reputable qualified researchers showing the efficacy of the treatments her parents prefer. Do not try the “medicine bad therefor this alternative works” ploy. You need to prove that her parents are making a better choice.

  177. #178 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    AdamG posted, “somitcw is a creature of habit, it seems…posting erroneous claims and then either retreating or shifting goalposts when asked for citations. Check out its comments here:
    http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-parents-fight-law-over-girl-39-forced-160122074.html
    Hopefully, I said that people should look up their own citations and not use my time to guess at what they are confused about and for them to do the research for themselves. That way they may also believe their own research.
    You and other people claiming that I didn’t provide a citation without saying what I didn’t post a citation for is not productive. I don’t work for you. Thirteenth amendment.
    I suggest that I will follow that policy now. I have cited all requested and before anyone asks for another citation, look it up yourself and if you still need me to post a citation, please tell where you have already looked so I don’t waste my time duplicating effort doing your work for you.

  178. #179 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 2, 2014

    You know, if you’re going to use ridiculous made-up words like “allopathic”, you should at least have some idea of what they’re supposed to mean.

    You regard hemp oil as a remedy for cancer. Fine. Let’s suppose it’s a universal cure for all cancers <snerk>. Does (full-strength) hemp oil cause the same symptoms as cancer? No? Then it’s a “allopathic” remedy by definition, you idiot!

  179. #180 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    Chris, posted some nonsense that appears to be asking for an allopathic “medicine” citation for a traditional treatment that I am not involved with assisting in or even knowing the traditional doctor that is treating Sarah Hershberger.
    Is my above statement too absurd to comprehend?
    It is for me.
    Chris, if you have anything to add to the discussion, please do. Weird, left-field, unintelligible requests do not benefit the discussion.

  180. #181 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    Chris, I don’t need to prove anything to you.
    .
    Logging off. I may be back tomorrow, May not.

  181. #182 Lawrence
    May 2, 2014

    @somitcw – well, since you haven’t thus far, why start now?

  182. #183 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted,
    “You know, if you’re going to use ridiculous made-up words”.
    “The” is a made up word.
    “Very” is a made up word.
    “Reverend” is a made up word.
    “Battleaxe” is a made up word.
    “of” is a made up word.
    “Knowledge” is a made up word.
    Now, does your type of silliness add to the discussion?
    Or does it detract from the discussion? I assume the later.
    .
    The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted,
    “like “allopathic”, you should at least have some idea of what they’re supposed to mean.”.
    So you now claim that a word that you claimed was made up that you suddenly know what it means. Fast education.
    .
    The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted,
    “You regard hemp oil as a remedy for cancer. Fine. Let’s suppose it’s a universal cure for all cancers .”
    .
    I clearly stated that the cure should match the disease but now suggest that you use aspirin for all issues like broken legs, in-grown toenails, the flu, and an upset stomach.
    Again, your strange statements are not adding to the discussion.
    .
    The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge posted,
    “Does (full-strength) hemp oil cause the same symptoms as cancer? No? Then it’s a “allopathic” remedy by definition, you idiot!”.
    Again, your strange statements are not adding to the discussion.
    Allopathic “medicine” is the one that causes damage and treats and treats for the most income that they can squeeze from people.
    Traditional medicine while did want some income, concentrated on the opposite way to get the one-eye.
    Traditional medicine, when legal, tried to cure disease.

  183. #184 somitcw
    May 2, 2014

    Lawrence posted, “@somitcw – well, since you haven’t thus far, why start now?”.
    .
    I am really gone. After I click on Submit Comment, I will close Chrome within two seconds. I may be back tomorrow to see all of the posts that try to get as far away from discussing Sarah Hershberger attempted forced allopathic assault as they can.

  184. #185 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    May 2, 2014

    You fu¢king imbecile:

    “Homeopathic” means “causing the same symptoms as the disease they are meant to treat.” “Allopathic” means “causing different symptoms than the disease they are meant to treat”. Are you really this stupid?

  185. #186 Scottynuke
    May 2, 2014

    @ TVRBOK:

    It certainly doesn’t grasp the concept of “sticking the flounce,” that’s certain.

  186. #187 AdamG
    May 2, 2014

    You and other people claiming that I didn’t provide a citation without saying what I didn’t post a citation for is not productive.

    But I did ask you specifically. Twice. First at #134, then at #165.

    Again, the specific claims I asked for citations for were that

    1. Induced fever cured more than half of cancers before modern medicine.
    2. Injecting people with SV40 causes cancer.

    It seems like, just like every other comment thread you participate in, you are going to flounce away after being confronted with people who won’t blindly accept your claims at face value.

    You do know that many of us here are actual scientists, right? Reading and interpreting scientific literature is a fundamental part of our job.

  187. #188 Narad
    May 2, 2014

    As long as Sarah Hershberger can be treated the way she is being treated, we all have lost freedom.

    You’re an idiot. Go read Prince v. Massachusetts.

  188. #189 Orac
    May 2, 2014

    It certainly doesn’t grasp the concept of “sticking the flounce,” that’s certain.

    True that. He’ll be back sooner.

    Anyway, thanks, all, for holding down the fort and using this particular troll as your chew toy while I’m at work.

  189. #190 Lawrence
    May 2, 2014

    Anyone that uses the term “allopathic” in serious conversation is not one to be taken seriously….

  190. #191 Todd W.
    http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com
    May 2, 2014

    I do love the tactic of “I’m not going to provide citations! Look it up yourself and do your own research!” It accomplishes two things: one, it gives somitcw a (false) sense of power and superiority and two, ensures that he/she always has an out in the form of “that’s not what I was using as the basis for my (dodgy) claims; nice straw man”.

    somitcw, if you provide citations to evidence that supports your claims, then everyone involved in the conversation is assured that they’re all referring to the same information. The fact that you do not provide citations suggests that you either have no evidence, that your “evidence” stinks or that you are simply trolling for reactions. Of course, these are not mutually exclusive.

  191. #192 Orac
    May 2, 2014

    Yup. The “look it up for yourself” gambit is such utter BS that anyone who uses it seriously loses, IMHO, and is no longer worthy of being taken seriously (if they ever were). If you can’t supply the citations that you use to back up your point, I won’t bother with you, other than to mock your refusal or inability to do so.

  192. #193 Chris,
    May 2, 2014

    somitcw: “Chris, I don’t need to prove anything to you.”

    Except you have proven quite a bit about yourself. It starts with you being more than a couple standard deviations below the mean for basic intelligence.

    “Logging off. I may be back tomorrow, May not.”

    And veracity is a foreign concept on your planet.

  193. #194 herr doktor bimler
    May 2, 2014

    Okay, you trying eating the soap made using a small amount of sterilized previous hemp oil and see if it cures anything. You will not notice any benefits. Trust me on this one.

    I defer to somitcw’s expertise in eating soap.

  194. #195 ann
    May 2, 2014

    You may have misread. “herein granted” means that the legislative power is limited to what the U.S. Constitution authorizes.

    Nope. I read it to mean “herein granted.”

    But I’m curious as to how the prohibition on growing hemp can be a perversion of the U.S. Constitution if it derives from the exercise of legislative powers that aren’t constitutionally authorized.

    Please enlighten me.

    You might want to also look at the limit specified in the tenth amendment which is part of of the immutable Bill of Rights and I have already posted.

    I don’t need to look at it. Powers not delegated are reserved to the states or the people.

    But the enacting of federal laws IS delegated. To congress.

    So clearly, the founders envisioned a country in which the Blessings of Liberty and the following of federal law were not mutually contradictory.

    The criminals that have taken control of the U.S. government have nullified the rule of law so the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights are not being followed.

    Are we a British colony?

    If the answer is no, the Declaration of Independence is being “followed.”

    You haven’t pointed to an amendment that’s being violated yet, either.

    But you know what? If there is one, the U.S. Constitution provides a remedy. (Hint: Starts with “j,” ends with “u-d-i-c-i-a-r-y.”)

    Sarah Hershberger and her parents no longer have the unalienable right to life so can be forcible killed with chemo.

    Her parents are being forcibly killed?

    Huh?

    They no longer have the unalienable right to liberty to make medical or nutritional decisions for themselves.

    As I indicated earlier, “liberty” does not mean “you can have whatever you want without limit or regard for law.”

    They no longer have the unalienable right to pursue what they believe is their dream.

    They have as much right to that as anybody. And they did, in fact, pursue it.

    They are not secure in their persons from being seized without probable cause. None of us are.

    They’re talking about the seizure of property in that amendment, not persons.
    .

    I have people to do and places to see. I am trying to go and will soon. Please do a few of your own searches so I don’t need to use too much my time today.

    No problem.

  195. #196 herr doktor bimler
    May 2, 2014

    Sarah Hershberger’s parents were originally told that Sarah would die in two weeks

    Oh really.

  196. #197 Bill Price
    May 2, 2014

    Ok, somitw, here’s why your analysis doesn’t hold water. It’s from The Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 8 (there’s your citation, BTW):

    The Congress shall have Power … To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; …

    Thus, the Tenth Amendment does not reserve the governance of interstate commerce to the states or the people, since that power is explicitly delegated to Congress. The wisdom of Congress in making some ‘recreational’ drugs illegal is not in the scope of this discussion.
    Your magic hemp oil is being legally produced, sold and used, according to a raft of references from googling ‘hemp oil utah’. The results are adorned with advertising for sale of hemp oil.
    It’s legal in Colorado for production and sale; it’s legal (pending approval of regulations that implement the new law) for use in Utah. A major manufacturer in Colorado is busy expanding their facilities to meet the expected Utah demand.
    There’s a study that is recruiting at the University of Utah on the actual effects of hemp oil, and what (if anything) it may actually be useful for.
    There are issues, currently, of interstate commerce, that should be resolved when the new regulations are promulgated.
    So, what’s your problem (except, possibly a lack of Google-fu)?

  197. #198 novalox
    May 2, 2014

    @somitcw

    Again, why should anyone believe you when you will not provide any citations or actual evidence for your assertions, besides “research it yourself”

    All it proves is that you have no actual evidence to support your so-called viewpoints and that you have been actively lying to all of us here the entire time.

  198. #199 Narad
    May 2, 2014

    Sorry for the typo. It should be:
    U.S.A. – 1776-07-04 until 2001-10-26 – R.I.P.

    Another winner.

    “do you believe that the osamacare crime against U.S. subjects has no cost?”

    You misspelled “Obanana.”

  199. #200 Uselesstwit
    May 2, 2014

    I think that in somitcw’s world the definition of citation is BS that is repeated often enough. It must be frustrating when everyone including reality refuse to bow to his wisdom.

  200. #201 Narad
    May 2, 2014

    this is a winner.

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