This post is a bit later than usual, but there’s a good reason for it. Last night, I was in full food coma, having consumed the traditional Thanksgiving feast, along with a fair amount of wine. Besides, even a sometimes arrogant bloviator like myself, who uses a pseudonym based on a fictional, near-all-knowing supercomputer from a 35-year-old British cult science fiction series needs a break now and then.

So today I’ll be, for the most part, slumming a bit today as I recover. What better place to look for material when you’re not interested in exerting yourself too hard than the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism? And what better member of the hivemind that is AoA to take a look at than Anne Dachel, the “media editor” of the blog, who is best known for looking for stories about vaccines or the antivaccine movement and sending up the Flying Monkey signal to her minions to inspire them to fly over to the comment sections of those stories and drop their poo in the form of comments full of rabid antivaccine fury?

This time around, however, Dachel isn’t doing that. Instead, she’s decided to promote more antivaccine propaganda from the makers of VAXXED, the movie by Andrew Wakefield and Del Bigtree that is basically one long propaganda film disguised as a documentary promoting the “CDC whistleblower” conspiracy theory that claims that the CDC “covered up” evidence that the MMR vaccine causes autism in African-American boys. So I thought I would add to my continuing series of “The annals of ‘I’m not antivaccine,” because if there’s one thing many AoA bloggers claim, it’s that they are “not antivaccine” but rather “pro-vaccine safety.” Then they go on to go full Godwin about vaccines, as Dachel does here.

Predictably, it doesn’t take long for Nazi analogies to pop up:

I clearly remember one time sitting in a train car in Switzerland talking to a German woman. She was fluent in English and very friendly. At one point she said she was sure that all Americans think the Germans who lived during the time of Hitler hated the Jews and everyone was a Nazi. I told her I understood the severe economic conditions that gave rise to fascism in Germany and that people didn’t support Hitler because he promised to create a Holocaust of the Jews.

The lady went on to tell me about the wonderful things the Nazis did for Germany in the midst of the depression and the aftermath of World War I when she was growing up. As far as the Jewish situation, she empathically said, “We just didn’t know what was happening.”

I never have forgotten that conversation. Here was someone who was a little child in the 1930s and the Nazi provided her with summer camps and lots of fun activities. Granted, she didn’t know back then what was really going on, but she knew all about mass slaughter in Hitler’s death camps when we were speaking in the 1980s. Still, there were no expressions of remorse or horror at the outrages of genocide perpetrated by the Nazi regime, just the often repeated, we didn’t know.

Autism and the connection to vaccinations wasn’t even remotely in the picture back then, but they are very much on my mind today and everyday. This leads to me think about the future. Why? Because the truth has to come out, or we have no future. And when we wake up to the reality of the holocaust created on the high altar of corporate greed, what will be the response of those in positions to have known what was happening?

What about the doctors and nurses who witnessed horrible vaccine reactions? What about the researchers hired to design studies to cover up any hint of vaccine damage? How will they explain what they did?

Sigh. Here we go again.

Yes, it’s true. There was a lot of support in Germany for the Nazis in the early years of the regime because Hitler appeared to be delivering on his promise to make Germany great again. (Yes, the wording was intentional; I couldn’t resist.) People were going back to work. The Autobahn was being constructed. One thing that’s unknown to many people about the Nazi regime is that it enacted some of the most sweeping social programs in history. There were workers’ welfare programs, subsidized vacations, and welfare programs like Winterhilfswerk (“winter relief”). Of course, I can’t help but point out here that, although the Nazis called Winterhilfswerk a “voluntary” charity program, failure to contribute not infrequently resulted in—shall we say?—unpleasant consequences, such as social ostracism, loss of employment, and even worse. And, yes, there were summer camps for children.

Of course, the point of this analogy is that, in addition to the things the Nazi regime did that made it popular in its early years, the regime went on to launch what became the bloodiest war in history and commit many of the worst atrocities in history and advanced an ideology in which Aryans were the Master Race, justified in doing almost anything in order to attain their Lebensraum (living space), with Jews portrayed as the implacable enemy of the race, attempting to undermine its rightful goals at every turn. One result was that, when the war was over and the Nazis defeated, many Germans denied knowledge of Nazi atrocities and, like the woman in Dachel’s anecdote, claimed that they only knew about the good things. While that’s likely true of Germans who were children in the 1930s, it’s a harder line to take for Germans who were adults, because, even if most German citizens didn’t know about the death camps, the did have a pretty good idea that “resettlement to the East” was not a good thing for the Jews rounded up and sent East. Also, the sheer size of the German war machine and state ensured that millions of Germans knew what was happening to the Jews and others in the subjugated nations to the East.

So Ms Dachel, thinking herself clever, tries to make an analogy between the vaccination program and the Holocaust, starting with that old woman on the train who enjoyed the camps and activities the Nazis provided for children when she was growing up but knew, of course, from the rest of her life what the Nazi regime went on to do. Dachel, being Dachel, is not subtle:

I never have forgotten that conversation. Here was someone who was a little child in the 1930s and the Nazi provided her with summer camps and lots of fun activities. Granted, she didn’t know back then what was really going on, but she knew all about mass slaughter in Hitler’s death camps when we were speaking in the 1980s. Still, there were no expressions of remorse or horror at the outrages of genocide perpetrated by the Nazi regime, just the often repeated, we didn’t know.

Autism and the connection to vaccinations wasn’t even remotely in the picture back then, but they are very much on my mind today and everyday. This leads to me think about the future. Why? Because the truth has to come out, or we have no future. And when we wake up to the reality of the holocaust created on the high altar of corporate greed, what will be the response of those in positions to have known what was happening?

What about the doctors and nurses who witnessed horrible vaccine reactions? What about the researchers hired to design studies to cover up any hint of vaccine damage? How will they explain what they did?

Because saying “we didn’t know” about Germany’s role in sending roaming murder squads (the Einsatzgruppen) into conquered countries to round up and kill Jews and partisans and in setting up death camps to slaughter millions of Jews and other enemies of the Reich with industrial efficiency are just like not accepting the pseudoscience of the antivaccine movement that promotes the conspiracy theory that the CDC and pretty much everyone in medical and public health professions “knew” that vaccines cause autism. OK, that’s not exactly what she’s saying. Rather, she’s engaging in a bit of wishful thinking, a bit of fantasy that I like to refer to as the fantasy of vindication, in which someday soon there will be evidence so compelling that the world will have to admit that antivaccinationists were right all along, hence the Nazi analogy. When that day comes, according to the fantasy, all those scientists, doctors, and public health officials will be like Germans who supported the Nazi regime dismissing its atrocities by saying, “We didn’t know.”

In an attempt to “prove” why health officials “should have known,” Dachel trots out a bunch of YouTube videos from the VAXXED crew in which various parents and others provide anecdotes of “vaccine injury.” She clearly thinks she’s doing the same sort of thing as when Allied officials, right after victory, marched German civilians through Nazi concentration camps like Dachau, Ohrdruf and Buchenwald to show them what had been done in their names. So what we get is an “integrative” pediatrician named Dr. Ramon Ramos spouting antivaccine views and “health freedom” propaganda:

We also get parental anecdotes. Such anecdotes, as I’ve described more times than I can remember, are generally full of the selective memory that is confirmation bias and the human cognitive tendency to confuse correlation with causation. They are seldom particularly convincing from a scientific standpoint, but can be very convincing on a human basis because humans instinctively tend to understand and believe compelling stories over data.

Obviously, for a tactic like Dachel’s Godwin, in which she likens scientists, doctors, and public health officials to Germans who later said, “We didn’t know” about Nazi atrocities, to have any validity, two things would have to be true. First, we would have to know that vaccines do cause autism and all those other conditions. Unfortunately for Dachel, scientists know that multiple large studies have failed to demonstrate a link between vaccines and autism, asthma, autoimmune diseases, and all the other diseases and conditions blamed on vaccines. Vaccines are effective and very, very safe, with serious adverse reactions being quite rare. Second, autism would have to be as bad the death and suffering caused by the Nazis. We know that’s not true.

The sad thing is that Dachel clearly doesn’t. Indeed, Dachel couldn’t have made such an analogy if she didn’t implicitly believe that describing the increase in autism diagnoses over the last 25 years as a “holocaust” is a massive and offensive exaggeration. The “autism holocaust” canard so beloved by antivaccine propagandists like Dachel does, however, show what antivaccinationists think of autism.

Comments

  1. #1 Helianthus
    In the depression state of grief
    November 25, 2016

    Oh, Ms Dachel, how blind your are.

    she empathically said, “We just didn’t know what was happening.”
    I never have forgotten that conversation.

    If, like many antivaxers, you supported and have voted for the current president-elect, you most certainly have forgotten this conversation.

    @ Orac

    Yes, the wording was intentional; I couldn’t resist.

    Actually, yours were the words of a resistant.

  2. #2 Dorit Reiss
    November 25, 2016

    I know this has been said before here multiple times, but I can’t help but feel for the children (and then adults) that grow up with their parents seeing them like this.

    And willing to say it online and in videos, even in front of the child. Something the Vaxxed team encourages, also showing their deep contempt for these children.

    It must be horrible to know your family scorns you so.

  3. #3 Zanthine
    South Dakota
    November 25, 2016

    Just last month I was sitting at the kitchen table with an elderly friend of my mother who emigrated from germany as a teen in the 1950s. I can’t even remember how the subject came up (probably something to do with the election) but she made some similar comments to the lady on the train in the story. We honestly didn’t know how to react. I know this comment has nothing to do with anti vax stuff but the situation really shook both of us.

  4. #4 BobFromLI
    Long Island, NY
    November 25, 2016

    How in hell is there any equivalence between doing what is reasonable to protect your child and some kind of vile, racist killing machine? Having had most childhood diseases, I continue to be stunned. Whooping cough is nothing short of torture. Polio is a lifelong debility. Other diseases are likely to cause disability or death. Kids who didn’t have herd immunity in some ritzy communities suddenly found their friends going deaf or blind. The real story is how an insidious piece of nonsense can and does cause real damage.

    Sure, you may have an autism spectrum kid in there somewhere but the research we have shows it to be genetic and caused by a slip in your reproduction. Does this nonsense somehow absolve you of your guilt? I think not.

  5. #5 Narad
    November 25, 2016

    In addition to the Godwinning, there’s also the parade of “(horror) stories,” e.g.,

    “[At the hospital], he’s still unconscious and then goes into a grand mal seizure that lasts two hours. […] And this is a four month old baby. Finally a neurologist who was called in said, ‘Don’t worry, I’ll get him to stop seizing, he just might stop breathing.

    Somehow, I don’t see an ED allowing status epilepticus to simply go on for two hours.

  6. #6 Narad
    November 25, 2016

    ^ I now seee that I missed two things:

    1. Preceding the above quote, there is this:

    He seizing and seizing, and they’re trying to give him Valium and different things. Nothing is working.

    2. The account is from Sarah Bridges. I guess now I have to go look for the docket, but I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts that the “eight year” OSM travail involves the OAP.

  7. #7 Narad
    November 25, 2016

    ^^ Ah, thar she blows. Of course, as often whined about at AoA, teh records is seeled!!1! Maybe they could harass Ms. Bridges about this, like race traitor Terry Poling.

    Anyway, if one looks at the dates of documents 1 and 10,* it appears to have been a straight Table injury, with some weird screwing around about $1000 while the terms of the compensation were worked out.

    * Note also document 14.

  8. #8 Mary Arneson
    United States
    November 25, 2016

    I’m a retired physician with two adult children with autism, and I was a German major in college, with an interest in WWII history, especially of course the history of the medical profession’s heroism and criminality during the Nazi years. (I’ve read Asperger’s Habilitationsarbeit in the original German before it was available in English translation and was struck by his obvious effort to defend the worth of his autistic patients against the Nazi effort to eliminate “worthless lives.”)

    The connection I wonder about between the Holocaust and measles vaccine is whether a measles vaccine could have prevented Nazism. Hitler’s behavior had been normal before his brother’s death from measles, and it deteriorated afterward. The change has been blamed on the emotional impact of his brother’s death, but frontal lobe damage from measles encephalitis is at least as plausible.

  9. #9 Chris
    November 25, 2016

    Narad, she has written a book about it all. The hefty tome of 220 pages, A Bad Reaction, was released last March by Skyhorse. The young man still has seizures.

    I suspect the NVICP award was not a table injury, because seizures from DTP were removed from the table in 1995, the year she filed:
    http://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/nvpo/nvac/meetings/pastmeetings/2012/evans_062512.pdf

    And a couple of reviewers thought a Craiglist ad was interesting. I cannot vouch for the veracity of the embedded image.

    (I have an interest in seizures in babies, mostly because I had one… except it was before any vaccines, and the children’s hospital administered an effective medication shortly after he arrived in their emergency department, he was weaned off of the meds a year later, only to have another seizure due to a now vaccine preventable disease: fun times)

  10. #10 sullenbode
    November 25, 2016

    “”he’s still unconscious and then goes into a grand mal seizure that lasts two hours

    How quaint.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsG06XnEJTg

  11. #11 sadmar
    November 25, 2016

    @ Prof. Reiss #2

    But this is what we must say, over and over and over, raising our voices higher and higher. Outside of the relatively small communities of pro-vax advocates and advocates for ASD kids and adults, the majority of folks who influence vax policy, both the publics and pols, are unaware of this dark heart of the anti-vaccine movement.

    The moral argument against anti-vax is stronger, more clear cut (no apparent quarreling ‘experts’), and has wider appeal than the scientific argument. Moreover, the moral issue plays an important role in how non-scientists assess the credibility of scientific arguments.

    For the scientist, is enough to examine the case against vaccines and declare it without scientific substance. Non-scientists, however, are likely to be reluctant to rely completely on ‘expert’ consensus derived from scientific research methods they don’t understand. They will likely attempt to place the ‘science’ of the controversy within wider contexts that ‘make sense’ of the positions in non-science terms. If they ask, “Why would these people be so vocal against vaccines if the vaccines aren’t at least a bit of a problem?” it behooves pro-vax advocates to have something resembling a rational explanation of why anti-vax is so wedded to bad science, rather than just observing that it is.

    The more I come into contact with anti-vax discourse, the more apparent it becomes that pseudo-science is a symptomatic effect, not a cause (in ideology theory terms, superstructure rather than base). I’ve commented a number of times that ‘the vaccines damaged my child!’ is the fundamental first principle that is just assumed and cannot be challenged, and that any set of ideas that build upon that can and will be developed, no matter how contradictory. If one of those mechanisms becomes undermined for any reason, another just takes its place, even if the two appear to be 180 degrees apart. But this observation, too, fails to address the ‘why?’.

    I submit, then, that the root of anti-vax pseudo-science is exactly fear and loathing of difference, more specifically fear and loathing of people with disabilities, and even more specifically fear and loathing of people with developmental disabilities. That first principle of ‘the vaccines damaged my child’ is, after all, itself rooted in the assumption an ASD child is damaged, broken, a ‘blight’.

    Third Reich propaganda labeled people with disabilities “life unworthy of life” or “useless eaters”, highlighting their burden upon society.

    ‘Forget society, how about the burden on ME!’

    Dachel has one thing right: those who stay silent in the presence of hate movements against Otherness will have some explaining to do. What then do we say now, to a revulsion of neuro-atypicality so perverse its adherents are willing to offer up not just their own children, but everyone’s children, to the ravages of infectious disease, on the premise that removing contact with the developmentally disabled from their lives is worth the risk?

  12. #12 Narad
    November 25, 2016

    I suspect the NVICP award was not a table injury, because seizures from DTP were removed from the table in 1995, the year she filed

    Thanks, Chris. I’ve had a pretty sluggish day after Thanksgiving, both physically and mentally. But we did have another dinner that couldn’t be beat,* etc.

    Again, though, nobody’s whinging about the deepest, darkest “sealing” of the medical records.

    * Actually, it easily could have been, as I’m fixing to move and just made the Moosewood spinach lasagna with a few extras for a friend, but that’ll knock you right out.

  13. #13 Chris
    November 25, 2016

    Narad: “…. Moosewood spinach lasagna with a few extras for a friend, but that’ll knock you right out.”

    Sounds wonderful! I need to check that out, because I love a good veggie lasagna. One of the best we ever had was the one included in the “going home basket” from the community hospital after our first two kids were born.

    Sadly it was not there when our third was born there after it had been absorbed by a larger medical group.

  14. #14 Narad
    November 25, 2016

    It’s the bechamel one, not the other.

  15. #15 JP
    November 25, 2016

    Narad: “…. Moosewood spinach lasagna with a few extras for a friend, but that’ll knock you right out.”

    Sounds wonderful! I need to check that out, because I love a good veggie lasagna.

    It’s a good cookbook. There’s an updated version that goes lighter on the dairy products, but I like the classic version. It has a good beer and cheese soup recipe as well, IIRC. It’s been a while since I used it.

    We’re having a not-Thanksgiving tomorrow* and I’m making the sweet potato dish and also risotto ai funghi with the leftover half of the giant porcini I found earlier this week. (Sautéed the whole thing in butter and garlic, filled the whole big pan; saved half of the result.) Any pointers would be appreciated; it’ll be my first crack at a risotto.

  16. #16 JP
    November 25, 2016

    *JW family tradition.

  17. #17 Wzrd1
    November 26, 2016

    @Zanthine, I’m of the somewhat rarefied group of tail end Boomer generation.
    I’ve personally known and conversed with holocaust victims and with German citizens that were adults during that era, due to both life experiences in general and due to military duties that exposed me to the second subset of people.
    Most weren’t very interested in exploring, rocking the boat, to find out, lest they join the “undesired” population in the camps.
    They also grieved over assuming the best intentions on the part of their government, whilst purest of evil was being distilled and perfected.

    I won’t judge them upon that Orwellian standard any more than I’ll judge this nation upon the ignoring of protestors in North Dakota being drenched in sub-zero temperatures by firehoses and ignoring ratified treaties beyond count throughout this nation’s history.
    I will say, there was some slight intentional ignorance, ignoring “where *they* went” and ultimate fate.
    As for service members, it was a World War, they didn’t end their term of service until the end of that damnable war.
    So, knowledge of what happened in the camps, a very small number of soldiers, considering all who served, was microscopic and likely, their terms of service never ended before the war was ended.

    Something that I’m acquainted with, stop loss programs in time of war.
    I was allowed to retire only because I had already signed out a parachute and was studying flight schedules of aircraft that I knew how to take off in and fly, landing, well, that wasn’t a consideration for me.
    My rich and retarded Uncle has plenty of such aircraft…*

    *Both the experience with German nationals and holocaust survivors is true, as is my retirement.
    It started to hurt *way* too much to put on all of that crap each and every morning, so I retired and Command held things up until I did precisely what was described above.
    Had my retirement then still remained unaccepted, I’d have stolen an aircraft, flown it home and jumped at the appropriate location, hoping that a mid-air refueling actually worked, which was unlikely. I’m not a pilot, I got some odd cross training.
    But, when one as four stars worth of General happy that one’s on their side, enough said.
    And of course, bad press, all around.
    I never said that I played nice when crossed. I’m one who lies beyond the map edge, “There Be Monsters Here”. 😉

  18. #18 Chris
    November 26, 2016

    Narad: “It’s the bechamel one, not the other.”

    Yeah, I figured that. I am not terribly fond of tomato sauces.

    JP: “Any pointers would be appreciated; it’ll be my first crack at a risotto.”

    Lots of patience. I usually have everything prepared in advance, and then make sure I have something to sit on by the stove while I stir. I also have an mp3 player playing something in my ears, because reading a book gets your eyes off of the rice. By the way, you can step away for a moment or two… but don’t make it a habit.

    • #19 Wzrd1
      November 26, 2016

      @Chris, you’ve not had *my* tomato sauce.
      If it has yet to be granted its own food group, it’s a mere oversight, but it’s popular on five continents. 🙂
      Yes, I’m serious on the continent count.

      I’m coming due to make another couple of gallons, I’ll see if I can e-mail attach a quart for you to try. 😉

      As for risotto, yeah, a moment or so away only. Beyond that, things get very unpleasant to clean up.
      I might make some again soon, I haven’t for quite a few years, as my wife doesn’t like risotto, but we now have a couple of guests that would enjoy it.
      As they loved my eggplant lasagna (mix of lasagna noodles and eggplant, substituting ricotta cheese and Parmesan with Parmesan and tofu), they’ll love risotto as well. 🙂

  19. #20 Stacy Herlihy
    United States
    November 26, 2016

    So many of the anti-vaxers are like that. They just can’t resist the holocaust metaphor. Then they believe that someone who is Jewish like me is going to jump right in and agree wit them. Because of course the murder of a million Jewish kids is exactly like protecting kids against the measles!

    This was sent to me on Facebook:

    Dear Stacy Mintzer Herlihy,

    I have a question for you.

    These vaccine issues are an interesting conundrum, aren’t they?

    Normally, I have always believed that in any argument the truth never lies in the extremes and instead falls somewhere in the middle. However, it appears that when it comes to vaccines, both you and I lie on the extremes, on polar opposite ends, and neither would be willing to budge their views even slightly.

    I only assume that you have viewed many, if not most of the Vaxxed live tour videos! In any case I am sure you are well aware of the thousands of vaccine injury stories reported by mothers and individuals.

    I understand your claim that causation doesn’t equal correlation and hope that you can respectfully understand that I believe “community immunity” doesn’t exist, nor could it work.

    Science is never settled. It is always evolving. That’s the beauty of it.

    I find the correlation of those Vaxxed kiddies who become sick with the diseases they were vaccinated against an interesting causation.

    I particularly find the science of what aluminum and Mercury do to the body of particular interest.

    By understand I mean I hear what you’re saying but I don’t agree.

    But just for a moment, let’s say the truth is actually somewhere in the middle. I have wondered how all of this settles with your Jewish heritage due to the holocaust?
    I have the utmost respect for what happened to the victims in those concentration camps. I don’t mean any offense by my question or any disrespect to your heritage.

    My question is sincere. I’m sure you know the history of the industry. After Nazi Germany fell many of the war criminals traveled to the USA and began working for big pharma. So the ties are there, unfortunately.

    In addition and most horribly are the people currently being experimented on by vaccines (which it sounds like you don’t believe). But perhaps for a minute maybe you could consider that somewhere in the middle, that is the truth? Not fully anti-Vaxxer but perhaps the vaccines aren’t quite as safe as the “science” states. After all, they recently halted use of the flu mist so not all is always perfect in vaccine wonderland.

    Anyway, in case you had not heard, Dr. Suzanne Humphries sent out a thank you to the NYU panel. The reason she was thankful was because she likes to learn about the vaccine issues from both sides of the coins and she appreciated listening to the panel.

    I do have a second question though…if you hate the anti-vaccine movement so much then why were you photographing yourself with your children in front of the Vaxxed bus?

    That is a memorial since so many names of victims have been written on it. Regardless of your POV, those are mother’s dead babies.

    Would you have the nerve to say to a mother that lost her child in a drunk driving accident that you are pro drinking and driving? Because you bashed a mother who was standing in front of the bus who was there with her vaccine injured child. You bashed her and refused to listen to her POV. You mocked a memorial where dead babies are remembered.

    I am not Jewish and I would never in a million years bash the holocaust or its victims.

    Regardless of your beliefs, your actions are not OK.
    Much love and may God Bless you,

  20. #21 MarkN
    November 26, 2016

    one question.. that ended up being five. And, that’s not all, act now and they’ll throw in a lecture from an idiot, no charge

  21. #22 Denice Walter
    November 26, 2016

    ( although I really hate disturbing the serious mood following Stacy’s comment)

    Mikey A ( Natural News, the 25th) tortures logic and the English language whilst reporting about the onslaught of ‘fake news’** that his own NN is indeed fake and compromised..

    You know, sometimes I have difficulty keeping his bizarro world statements in their proper order so that readers appreciate the depth of Mikey’s BS artistry. so again;

    It’s FAKE news that NN is fake
    the NYT and WaPos report Fake News constantly and assiduously
    Breitbart is meaningful and not fake
    I heard similar dreck at prn.fm

    It’s the end of the world as we know it etc

    ** courtesy of the NYT and WaPo.

  22. #23 Denice Walter
    November 26, 2016

    I know that all is well at RI when the minions come out to discuss food:

    Oh well, it’s Saturday that that ( usually) means that I manage getting someone to take me out to dine in style.
    BUT I have not (yet) DESCENDED to the level of tweeting/ instagramming whatever I eat. at restaurants YET.
    ( I promise I won’t EVER)

    HOWEVER I had the great pleasure yesterday of putting a meal together using leftover poultry, pasta, mayo, wine, hispanic seasoning ( Sazon) and carrots which was servicable. Will wonders ever cease? I cooked.

    Earlier, I visited the Russian store which purveys a plethora of exotic treats – although I don’t often get the caviar or milk products. I picked up some expensive cherry jam labeld ( en russe*) VARENNYA ( I know the letters- believe it or not)

    They had an entire freezer filled with pelmeni – dumplings.

    I’m sure JP knows about Russian stores.

  23. #24 Michael J. Dochniak
    Minnesota
    November 26, 2016

    Orac writes,

    “not antivaccine” but rather “pro-vaccine safety.”

    MJD says,

    In my opinion, it’s clear that Orac and minions dislike both.

    Name one pro-vaccine safety advocate that you’ve said anything good about?

    RI pledge of allegiance:

    I know and dislike all antivaxxers as well I should; and dislike pro-vaccine safety advocates as well as they deserve.

  24. #25 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    November 26, 2016

    Name one pro-vaccine safety advocate that you’ve said anything good about?

    Name one “pro-vaccine safety advocate” who has a reasonable definition of vaccine safety.

  25. #26 Renate
    November 26, 2016

    @ Stacey Herlihy
    Sometimes there is no middle ground. The holocaust has happened and has taken millions of lives and vaccines have saved many lives and the don’t cause autism.
    Sometimes science is just that. Even if some theories of gravity are perhaps a bit changing, it still keeps us with our feet on the ground and we are not suddenly floating in the sky. With vaccines it is the same.

  26. #27 Stacy Herlihy
    United States
    November 26, 2016

    Renate,

    I agree. And what “middle ground” can you possibly have on the holocaust? It was okay to gas “only” half a million Jewish children but a million was going a little too far?

  27. #28 Michael J. Dochniak
    Minnesota
    November 26, 2016

    Johnny asks.

    “Name one “pro-vaccine safety advocate” who has a reasonable definition of vaccine safety.”

    MJD says,

    Dr. Paul Offit

  28. #29 herr doktor bimler
    November 26, 2016

    the leftover half of the giant porcini I found earlier this week

    JP is aware of my envy.

  29. #30 Mephistopheles O'Brien
    November 26, 2016

    I am entirely in favor of safe vaccines. It has, however, been pointed out that some people’s definition of safe is unobtainable – effectively making them anti-vaccine. Also many people make claims of danger based on invalid or missing data. But valid vaccine safety improvements – who wouldn’t be all for that?

  30. #31 Narad
    November 26, 2016

    Name one “pro-vaccine safety advocate” who has a reasonable definition of vaccine safety.

    Hey, I’m pro-vaccine because I’m a safety advocate. Perhaps G-d will Bless her with some remedial composition classes.

  31. #32 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    November 26, 2016

    So MJD says “Name one pro-vaccine safety advocate that you’ve said anything good about?”, I ask for an example of a ‘pro-vaccine safety advocate’, and MJD comes up with Dr. Paul Offit.

    You answered your own question, you dumb sumbitch.

  32. #33 Narad
    November 26, 2016

    Oh, that was MJD? Ah, well, killfile + nap can do that to me.

  33. #34 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    November 26, 2016

    MJD @24 issuing a challenge to Orac:

    Name one pro-vaccine safety advocate that you’ve said anything good about?

    MJD @28, after being challenged to name a genuine pro-vaccine safety advocate:

    Dr. Paul Offit

    Orac has said a lot of nice things about Dr. Paul Offit.

  34. #35 Julian Frost
    November 26, 2016

    And I see Johnny beat me to it.

  35. #36 JP
    November 26, 2016

    JP is aware of my envy.

    I was pleasantly surprised to find it; it’s getting pretty late in the season for boletes especially, but really for too much of anything. I did find some very pretty witch’s butter and some cat’s tongue the other day, the same day I found the chanterelles. (I’ve heard you can make jelly candy out of cat’s tongue, but I didn’t pick any.)

  36. #37 JP
    November 26, 2016

    Earlier, I visited the Russian store which purveys a plethora of exotic treats – although I don’t often get the caviar or milk products.

    Oh, you really should get them more often. Russian jam is good, but it certainly doesn’t beat caviar (I always buy the red, much cheaper), cold smoked mackerel, or real Russian kefir.

    I’m sure JP knows about Russian stores.

    Indeed, although I haven’t been to one in a while. The nearest Russian stores around here are in Portland, an hour’s drive away. I’ve thought about taking the train down to spend a night and a day or so, though, just for the sake of being in a city…

  37. #38 Michael J. Dochniak
    Minnesota
    November 26, 2016

    MOB (#30) says,

    …some people’s definition of safe is unobtainable

    MJD says,

    Perfect, attempting the unattainable is admirable when it comes to vaccine safety.

    The alternative is apathy and learned helplessness.

  38. #39 Michael J. Dochniak
    Minnesota
    November 26, 2016

    Johnny (#32) says,

    You answered your own question, you dumb sumbitch.

    MJD says,

    Johnny, I answered your sentence from post #25 wherein you wrote, “Name one “pro-vaccine safety advocate” who has a reasonable definition of vaccine safety”.

    I thought the ultimate respectful insolence was unatainable but you’ve come close by calling me a dumb sumbitch (post #32). Congratulations Johnny!

  39. #40 Old Rockin' Dave
    November 26, 2016

    Regarding what everyday Germans knew of the Shoah:
    1) The people of German cities couldn’t plead ignorance of Kristallnacht, and Berliners and others must have noticed the disappearance of 200,000 Jews.
    2) Germans who lived near the camps used to “joke” that “the Jews come in by the gate and leave by the chimney.” Not to mention that when the wind was right the smell of burning humans was unmistakable and awful.
    3) Most of the mass shootings were carried out by paramilitary police battalions (in concept but not in practice like the French Gendarmerie), which operated as part of the army. They were generally free to request reassignment if they found the task too distasteful. They also were not stopped from discussing their task while on leave or in letters home. Officers’ wives visited or were housed in areas of operation.
    4) Like in any empire, the bureaucracy were heavily involved. The gas chambers and crematoria were subject to competitive bidding; the paperwork survives. Rail operators likewise knew what they were being asked to transport.
    5) Since those being worked to death were sent on labor gangs outside the camps, they had to encounter farmers, quarriers, miners, loggers, and others.
    I could list more evidence, but I’m nauseated enough for the moment.
    I could add my resentment that the travails of my people (Jews) are being trivialized by comparison to the travails of my people (autists). I resent that the travails of my people (autists) are being used to demonize well-meaning and factually correct people.
    Trust me, it ain’t all fun being an autistic bisexual Jew, even in today’s world.

  40. #41 JP
    November 26, 2016

    Hitler’s Willing Executioners is a good read on the matter of the culpability of “good Germans.” I read the bulk of it in Krakow one summer, if memory serves.

  41. #42 Delphine
    November 26, 2016

    JP, just keep stirring the risotto. Never stop stirring. What I do is I have a stand for my Kindle, and I just read, and stir. And stir. And stir.

  42. #43 Delphine
    November 26, 2016

    We are partial to this http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/giada-de-laurentiis/champagne-risotto-recipe.html but I haven’t made it since I gave up drinking. Will have to find another risotto recipe that we truly love.

  43. #44 herr doktor bimler
    November 27, 2016

    Hitler’s Willing Executioners is a good read on the matter of the culpability of “good Germans.” I read the bulk of it in Krakow one summer, if memory serves.

    Goldhagenl’s scholarship leaves a lot to be desired. He started with his conclusion and then cherry-picked evidence to support it, or if necessary made citations up.

  44. #45 JP
    November 27, 2016

    I read it largely as an enjoyable summer read long ago and didn’t pick apart the scholarship, so I’m sure you’re right. One of the main criticisms of his work, that he did not engage enough with the secondary sources, incidentally was the major criticism by my committee of my prelims essays. I did still pass, which is what counts.

  45. #46 JP
    November 27, 2016

    They do want me to come back, too, G-d knows why. I suspect part of it is simple affection, as I’m quite sure I was the lovable f*ck up of the department, if a very good Russian teacher. There’s a story I may once have told here about my oral defense…

    My UM shrink, who still emails and calls regularly, is of the opinion that I should probably look for something lower key than academia, though he has not outright mentioned disability.

  46. #47 Narad
    November 27, 2016

    We’re having a not-Thanksgiving tomorrow* and I’m making the sweet potato dish and also risotto ai funghi with the leftover half of the giant porcini I found earlier this week. (Sautéed the whole thing in butter and garlic, filled the whole big pan; saved half of the result.) Any pointers would be appreciated; it’ll be my first crack at a risotto.

    My pointer would be to ignore the spookiness surrounding the rice porridge. There’s no need to pull up a stool and methodically torture polished grains if you’re at the cooktop anyway.

    Are you going to serve these two simultaneously? Is there anything else? Just figure out a timeline.

  47. #48 JP
    November 27, 2016

    There was also turkey, stuffing, etc., and an aunt brought green beans and Brussels sprouts. The risotto went over well, though was avoided by fungophobes, despite my assurance that I know my IDs and has eaten the other half myself.

    The sweet potatoes were whT for the rave reviews, for whatever reason.

    • #49 Wzrd1
      November 27, 2016

      As much as I guard against straw mushrooms (those do get me quite ill), most other fungi don’t bother me and hence, I’ll greedily consume them.

      I made candied yams with thanksgiving dinner, fresh candied yams, after first cooking the yams in the pressure cooker, then finishing them candied in the oven.
      One guest didn’t realize that yams were available without a can, a realization that generated much humor. 🙂

      Thanksgiving dinner had only two things that weren’t fresh, a frozen bird and cranberry sauce from a can, as I couldn’t locate cranberries locally this year.

  48. #50 JP
    November 27, 2016

    HAD eaten.

  49. #51 Renate
    November 27, 2016

    @ Stacey Herlihy #27
    Perhaps the way Turkey is thinking about the Armenian genocide? Something like: ‘they decided to move and died on the way’?

    • #52 Wzrd1
      November 27, 2016

      @Renate #51, indeed, when I was asked how did the US know so much about genocide as to try to enforce halting it, I reminded the questioner that the US is a world renowned expert in genocide.
      Ask the Cherokee, who also moved and died along the way.
      Or dozens of other Native nations.

  50. #53 Laila Daghastani
    November 27, 2016

    You may have heard the term immunity as it relates to your health before, but do you know what it actually means? When you have an immunity to something, it means that your body can fight that disease or infection without you knowing it. When you get sick, your body is fighting off a disease and you experience symptoms depending on what that illness is. Being immune to a disease means that your body is able to kill the germs without experiencing any symptoms. The memory b-cell and t-cell initiates the immune response and produces large amounts of specific antibody the agent of lasting immunity. A cell in the immune system that, when exposed to an invading pathogen, replicates itself, resulting in a more efficient and rapid response to any subsequent attack. You can acquire immunity by vaccination.

    Vaccination is the use of vaccines to prevent specific diseases. Vaccines are medicines that contain weakened or dead bacteria or viruses. When a person takes a vaccine, his or her immune system responds by producing antibodies, substances that weaken or destroy disease, causing organisms. When the person is later exposed to live bacteria or viruses of the same kind that were in the vaccine, the antibodies prevent those organisms from making the person sick. Vaccines usually also stimulate the so-called cellular immune system as well. In other words, the person becomes immune to the disease the organisms normally cause. The process of building up immunity by taking a vaccine is called immunisation. Vaccines are used in several ways. Some, such as the rabies vaccine, are given only when a person is likely to have been exposed to the virus that causes the disease. Others are given to travelers planning to visit countries where certain diseases are common. Then, there are vaccines that are given to almost everyone, such as the ones that prevent commonly spread diseases.

    Many diseases that once caused widespread illness, disability, and death wouldn’t have been able to be prevented if it weren’t for vaccines. In addition to those discussed above, vaccines are available for preventing anthrax, cholera, hepatitis A, Japanese encephalitis, meningococcal meningitis, plague, pneumococcal infection (meningitis, pneumonia), tuberculosis, typhoid fever, and yellow fever. Most vaccine-preventable diseases are spread from person to person. If one person in a community gets an infectious disease, he can spread it to others who are not immune. But a person who is immune to a disease because she has been vaccinated can’t get that disease and can’t spread it to others. The more people who are vaccinated, the fewer opportunities a disease has to spread.

    Vaccination has many different advantages. The concept behind immunisation is similar to that of homeopathic approach of ‘like treating like’. In effect, the body is exposed to a little amount of the organism, causing a particular disease. Though the organisms are modified to make them safe enough for the body, they are rendered with the ability to create the specific infection. With this, the immune system of the body becomes active and produces antibodies to fight the foreign organism. This process makes the body equipped for fighting against the specific disease. This is because whenever the same organism will enter the system, the immune cells will recognise it and will mount an efficient resistance against it. Thus, vaccination works great deal in strengthening the immunity and protecting the body from fatal diseases. After learning about the advantages, let us move on the disadvantages as well.

    Like any other medication, in case of vaccines too, there are certain disadvantages. There exists the risk of adverse reactions with vaccinations as well. Mostly, the reactions associated with vaccinations are minor in nature, including pain or swelling at the injection site, mild fever and irritability. In rare cases, severe reactions have also been noticed. However, the rate of occurrence cannot be determined as side effects are usually not reported and there is very less research being done in the area.

    Vaccines are one of humanity’s greatest achievements. Firstly, vaccines
    improve public health. Vaccines reduce the number of children dying, falling ill, or being disabled as a result of diseases. Secondly, they have many benefits towards humanity.Vaccines help healthy people stay healthy and in doing so help to remove a major obstacle to human development, they benefit not only individuals but also communities, and even entire populations.

    Vaccinations have helped us develop economically, and socially. The economic benefits are the decreasing of very large amounts of money to be paid for treating diseases, that people would not even have if vaccinated. The economic benefits of vaccination extend far beyond the treatment costs that are usually included in cost-effectiveness analyses. Children whose lives are saved through immunisation programmes not only contribute to the economy but also bring social value to the community. Vaccination, and thus improved health, can yield broad benefits in improved cognitive development, educational attainment and labour productivity.

  51. #54 Chris
    November 27, 2016

    Laila Daghastani: “The concept behind immunisation is similar to that of homeopathic approach of ‘like treating like’.”

    Mostly true, except for that sentence. Unfortunately homeopathic “remedies” are diluted to absolute nothingness. For example “30C” means that the substance has been diluted by a hundred times the solute thirty times over. So the ratio of substance to solution is 1 to 10^60 (a 1 with sixty zeros following it, or one atom to more atoms that make up this planet).

    Just do a search of this blog on discussions about homeopathy. You might also read many more articles on this blog to understand why your very long comment was unnecessary and not quite on topic.

  52. #55 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    November 27, 2016

    Mostly true…

    Yeah, and plagiarized from sites all over the web.

    I hope I’m wrong, but I’m reminded of the story of the Trojan Horse.

  53. #56 Chris
    November 27, 2016

    Yeah, it does look fishy. Weird kind of spam.

  54. #57 herr doktor bimler
    November 27, 2016

    I am not sure that it’s worth arguing with a crank-site plagiarising copy-pasta-bot.

  55. #58 Narad
    November 27, 2016

    I’m guessing direct injection of the link to the essays-for-hire site failed. At least the wave of South African freshmen put some effort into things.

  56. #59 JP
    November 27, 2016

    Perhaps the way Turkey is thinking about the Armenian genocide? Something like: ‘they decided to move and died on the way’?

    I once attended a screening of a very tendentious film (I can’t remember the name) which maintained that the Holodomor was the very first genocide in history and that’s where the Nazis got the idea. They seemed to have plum forgotten about the Armenian genocide, or ignored it.

    I made this point in the Q&A session after the film, and it was not a popular question with the Ukrainian diaspora audience.

  57. #61 Chris
    November 28, 2016

    Mr. Abshear is spamming from an amusing website:
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Henry_Makow

  58. #63 Chris
    November 28, 2016

    Thanks, Narad. That is a terrible study.

  59. #65 Chris
    November 28, 2016

    Ah, the good Herr Doctor!

  60. #66 herr doktor bimler
    November 28, 2016

    As well as the Goofle Cache, this weird abstract-only no-details document still exists in copies all over the Alt-medsophere, as antivaxxers have been all over it like [unsavory biological metaphor here].

    ht_tp://www.globalpossibilities.org/the-results-from-the-first-ever-study-comparing-vaccinates-vs-unvaccinated-children-are-in-and-the-data-is-frightening/
    ht_tp://doctorbeau.com/the-results-from-the-first-ever-study-comparing-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-children-are-in-and-the-data-is-frightening/

    It is exactly 4 years since Orac blogged about the rather, umm motivated, conclusion-driven nature of the survey itself and the people funding it:

    It all sounds rather innocuous, but looking deeper, I find that this “study” is not much of a study at all. In fact, it’s just an Internet survey, and not even a particularly informative survey. Why it will cost $500,000 to complete, I have no idea. It sure seems like a lot of green for a relatively easy study. It’s not as though a bunch of people to interview hundreds or thousands of subjects are needed. You can even look at it yourself, as one can find the survey here and here. Its principal investigator is Anthony R. Mawson, M.A., Dr.P.H.. That name sounded familiar to me, and it didn’t take much Googling before it came to me.

  61. #67 herr doktor bimler
    November 28, 2016

    The explanation from Frontiers is that the paper had been accepted but not published, so you must have hallucinated it. Also review is continuing:
    https://twitter.com/HIVforumInfo/status/803191665607507969

    I am further advised that the Editor at Frontiers for this opuscule was Amit Agrawal, who previously groomed the Geiers and Hooker as contributors to Frontiers;
    http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fped.2015.00085/full

    while one of the reviewers (Linda Mullin Elkins) is a Professor at the College of Chiropractic at “Life University” (“visionaries of vitalism”).

  62. #68 herr doktor bimler
    November 28, 2016

    while one of the reviewers (Linda Mullin Elkins) is a Professor at the College of Chiropractic at “Life University” (“visionaries of vitalism”).
    — forgot to credit Dora @ HIVforum.

  63. #69 Old Rockin' Dave
    November 28, 2016

    Regarding the Armenian genocide, Hitler is supposed to have said in 1940, “Who today remembers the Armenians?”
    For years he had been declaring what he would do if given the power, and when he had it he did just that. Motive, method, opportunity.
    A Shoah survivor was asked his advice for the present day. He responded, “If someone says he’s coming to kill you, believe him.”

  64. #70 Calli Arcale
    http://fractalwonder.wordpress.com
    November 28, 2016

    My grandfather was present at the liberation of one of Dachau’s satellite camps. Since some of the local Germans professed a rather dubious ignorance of what had happened, the US Army damn well made sure they knew, by conducting compulsory guided tours at gunpoint. Yet they had to have known. The stench alone was impossible to ignore.

    Some of what the US Army did when faced with the horrific reality of Dachau would likely qualify as a war crime, based on what my grandfather described to me. But it would be very difficult to step away from that unimaginable level of horror and respond dispassionately.

  65. #71 Matthias Dewaele
    Belgium
    December 13, 2016

    Pardon me for adding to the horror:

    Both WW’s we’re sponsored one both ‘sides’ by Goldman Sachs. Let’s hope only ‘to make money’ . Which is already a horrible thought anyway (allthough I think there’s more involved then financial gain – read about please).

    Early vaccination (in the first) year of human life impacts the growth of your amygdala and subsequently inhibits your capacity to evolve and become an independent (thinking and acting for yourself), ‘souvereign’ human being. We are all different human beings and our reactions to vaccination (not = to immunisation) is different in everyone of us. We are not cattle.

    Substances like fluor, heavy metals etc… where all part of the experiments in the WW camps to see how you can (mind) control, enslave people. Baxter (producer of -later-chemical fertilizer/bombs in the WW’s) just changed their goals/marketstrategy and get’s paid for spreading the know-how they gathered one these subjects. This was the start of the now called Western (evidence based (-;) non alternative/petrol-based synthetic medecine. (The holy grale of auto-immune disease to me).

    Conspiracy?…FACT. Take a distance, read and try to think outside of set paradigma’s.

    Enjoy the ride.

    PS: let’s hope that all lives lost in both WW’s on both side’s are not just sources of grief, but become fountains of hope and peace…They deserve it.

    Pray for a souvereign and peacefull world.

    Peace to you all.

    PPs: I do not wish to personally offend or grief anybody with these writings

  66. #72 MI Dawn
    December 13, 2016

    @Matthias: Sorry. You are wrong. And pulling this kind of stuff on a blog where the author started out in refuting Holocaust deniers is not going to win you any brownie points. Your conspiracy theories don’t work. Blaming Goldman Sachs for “sponsoring” WWII? Right. Hitler was just a lackey.

    Go back and learn the facts about vaccines instead of the “FACTS”.

  67. #73 Dangerous Bacon
    December 13, 2016

    Wonder who “sponsored” the meme vaccination-is- not-immunization?

    I blame Galen.

  68. #74 Matthias Dewaele
    December 13, 2016

    I think you indeed can put this in the category of Holocaust but not ‘denying’ rather a scientificaly supported continuation. Let’s hope not a conscious one.

    Question: My english vocabulary is not that strong. Galen = Galenus?

  69. #75 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    December 13, 2016

    Early vaccination (in the first) year of human life impacts the growth of your amygdala and subsequently inhibits your capacity to evolve and become an independent (thinking and acting for yourself), ‘souvereign’ human being.

    Citation needed. And it’s spelled “sovereign”.

  70. #76 Argus
    USA
    December 13, 2016

    Matthias is so certain of his “FACTS” that he named Baxter instead of Bayer as a company that produced products in Germany during WWII. But I don’t see what producing fertilizer has to do with military bombs. (Yes, I know homemade bombs can be created with it)
    And he invented a new word: “paradigma”

  71. #77 Narad
    December 13, 2016

    Wonder who “sponsored” the meme vaccination-is- not-immunization?

    I suspect it’s pretty old, but it would be interesting to track down. It occurs in literal form in the subtitle of Tim O’Shea’s The Sanctity of Human Blood.

  72. #78 JustaTech
    December 13, 2016

    Matthis @71: You said “We are all different human beings and our reactions to vaccination (not = to immunisation) is different in everyone of us.”
    Did you know that the response of different humans to “natural” immunization is also different? That’s right. Some people get a disease and develop immunity. Some people get a disease and die.
    That’s pretty different.

  73. #79 rs
    December 13, 2016

    “That’s pretty different.”

    Anti-vaxxers are like vampires that way. When you hold up a mirror to them, to apply their missives to their own beliefs, they see nothing.

  74. #80 herr doktor bimler
    December 13, 2016

    Substances like fluor, heavy metals etc… where all part of the experiments in the WW camps to see how you can (mind) control, enslave people.

    The canonical anti-fluoridation fabrication is that Nazis were fluoridating the water in concentration camps to keep the slaves docile (it can be traced back to an early-50s John Birch Society fabrication that it was the Soviets using fluoride for enslavement purposes, but the liars-for-the-cause embroidered the tale after deciding that Nazis were marginally scarier).

    The idea that heavy metals were being administered in parallel seems to be Matthias Dewaele’s own contribution to the level of discourse, and we should thank him appropriately.
    Because there’s nothing like like lead or mercury poisoning to increase the productivity of work-camp labourers.

  75. #81 Sepp Dietrich
    December 23, 2016

    I don’t quite get it. Nazis supported vaccination and that is bad exactly…why?

  76. #82 Politicalguineapig
    December 24, 2016

    Sepp: Because nazis, basically. Everything they supported must be bad,(this is also why fluoridation and psychiatry are bad) and the people saying this also generally don’t study or understand history, or they’d know that the nazi establishment also liked homeopathy.
    To me, it’s always a bit funny that the anti-vax and anti-psychiatry organizations always say they’re totally against everything nazi, but they love using anti-semitic slurs against people who call out their lack of facts.

  77. […] rape (I wish I were kidding about this, but I’m not), the Holocaust, and, of course, Nazis, Nazis, Nazis. That’s not even counting examples not included in my little series of antivaxers […]

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