It was only just yesterday that I recounted the story of a naturopathic quack in Bowling Green, KY who told a cancer patient that “chemo is for losers,” promising her that he eliminate her tumor within three months. She listened to him, and as a result she died, as she and her husband were suing the quack. Not long after, her distraught widower walked into the quack’s office on a Friday evening earlier this month and, if the police charges are accurate, shot him dead. Basically, because this quack convinced the woman to forego chemotherapy, whatever chance of survival she had was eliminated. The woman’s name was Fikreta Ibrisevic; the quack’s name was Juan Gonzalez; and the name of the widower allegedly turned killer is Omer Ahmetovic.

Ibrisevic died a slow, lingering death from what was in essence untreated cancer, at least until near the end, when, having realized that the treatment wasn’t working, she turned to the conventional treatment that she had rejected. Unfortunately, by that time, it was too late. Some victims of “holistic” or “natural healers,” however, die from the actual treatment. For instance, yesterday I learned of what we in the biz, when we’re in the mood for dark humor, would call a “clean kill.” The victim was a 30 year old woman, and intravenous turmeric killed her:

From the accompanying story:

ENCINITAS, Calif. (KGTV) – Friends say Jade Erick was a “free spirit” who was as beautiful on the inside as she was outside. She was also interested in holistic health, but that interest may have contributed to her death at the age of 30.

Erick died after a bad reaction to turmeric, a spice used in Indian food and in dietary supplements, that was dripped directly into her veins through an I-V.

According to the San Diego County Medical Examiner the cause of her death was “: anoxic encephalopathy due to prolonged resuscitated cardiopulmonary arrest due to adverse reaction to infused turmeric solution”. A spokesperson confirmed the turmeric was delivered through an IV.

What a horrible outcome! I had never heard of such a reaction before. Sure, I was familiar with turmeric. Indeed, one of its components, curcumin is isolated from turmeric, and curcumin is a natural product that’s being investigated for various medicinal properties, including anticancer properties. There’s been a lot of in vitro research in cell culture performed, and quite a few small, preliminary clinical trials, as search of PubMed will reveal, showing results with varying degrees of promise against certain diseases. Basically, depending on the study, curcumin might have anti-inflammatory properties. It can also induce apoptosis (programmed cell death) in cancer cells and may inhibit angiogenesis (one of my favorite properties). Antithrombotic effects have also been attributed to it, and it appears to be able to decrease the amyloid plaque associated with Alzheimer’s.

Curcumin is not exactly an ideal anticancer drug (or drug for anything, to be honest) because it’s lipophilic (fatty) in nature and has low solubility and stability in aqueous solution. That means it has low bioavailability, and, indeed, that is the single greatest problem with using curcumin as a drug; it’s not absorbed very well when taken orally. On the other hand, animal studies show low toxicity, as would be expected for what is basically a spice, although turmeric fed to mice at high enough doses could cause liver toxicity, and curcumin can cause nausea and diarrhea. Let’s just put it this way, even the National Center for Complementary and Integrative Medicine (NCCIH) can’t say definitively that it’s that good for anything. Even for inflammation, the indication for which it’s most commonly used, the evidence is not that great.

Despite the mostly preliminary evidence and the relative unsuitability of turmeric extracts or the more purified curcumin as a drug, in the world of “natural health,” turmeric is advertised as a near wonder-drug. Just out of curiosity, I did some searches on turmeric, and it’s not at all hard to find articles and ads touting curcumin or turmeric as powerful anti-inflammatory drugs, claiming that they can boost brain function, prevent Alzheimer’s disease, treat depression, improve arthritis, lower the risk of heart disease, treat or prevent cancer, and prevent aging. For example, this article claims that turmeric can function as well or better than:

  • Anti-inflammatory drugs
  • Anti-depressants (Prozac)
  • Chemotherapy
  • Anti-coagulants (Aspirin)
  • Pain killers
  • Diabetes drugs (Metformin)
  • Arthritis medications
  • Inflammatory bowel disease drugs
  • Cholesterol drugs (Lipitor)
  • Steroids

You get the idea. If you believe the “holistic health” clinics, turmeric or curcumin is the wonder drug that works wonders—for practically everything. Jade Erick was using it to treat her eczema.

Now here’s what irritates the crap out of me about this news story is the choice of medical “expert” that the reporter interviewed. Now, if you or I were doing a news story about this very unfortunate young woman who, through a combination of trusting a quack and bad luck, is now in the cold, cold ground, we’d get a real medical expert, like a real physician or a scientist who studies curcumin as a treatment for something or other. Whom does Alison Ashe choose? Another naturopathic quack, who is given far too much screen time:

“It’s a natural, safe way to help people with pain and inflammation,” said Mark Stengler, a naturopathic doctor who offers turmeric to his patients but only in oral form.

Stengler didn’t treat Erick, but said he does know a few Encinitas holistic health practitioners who deliver turmeric intravenously.

“There are some doctors who use Turmeric extract in IV form to try and heighten the physiological effects, so the anti-inflammatory effects of the turmeric,” Stengler explained. “It hasn’t been well studied. It’s more theoretical, so it’s more investigational.”

One wonders if, whoever this “holistic healer” is, he or she was a competitor of Mark Stengler. As I always do, I perused Stengler’s website. It’s a typical naturopath website, complete with lots of dubious BS on health. It also turns out that he’s a bit of a media figure, bragging about his appearances on medical expert on FOX, CBS, and NBC. He also hosts his own weekly TV show Natural Healing with Mark Stengler, which apparently runs on PBS and cable stations. Conflict of interest, much? Naaah. ABC 10 in San Diego would never, ever, ignore such an obvious COI, would it?

I think you already know the answer to that question.

It also burns me that Ash didn’t name the practitioner. I’m guessing that the reason she didn’t is that her station is afraid of a potential lawsuit. She did show a building with an address of 5570. I couldn’t find who it was, and I gave up trying for a while because apparently there are a lot of quacks in southern California with “5570” somewhere on their website, either in the ZIP code or phone number or wherever. Perhaps I am incompetent at this Google thing. Either that, or I just wasn’t willing to invest the amount of time that would be required to find out who treated Ms. Erick. There are a lot of naturopaths and “holistic health” practitioners in Encinitas and southern California. [D’oh! It turns out that that’s the San Diego County Medical Examiner’s Office. No more need to search and speculate in the comments.]

Having been stymied in identifying the specific quack who killed Erick, I looked into intravenous turmeric. Unfortunately there are quacks who are true believers:

Functional Medicine Doctor Brian Davies from Westcoast Integrative Health in North Vancouver, Canada uses intravenous curcumin in combination with intravenous vitamin C (of course with IV vitamin C, because why not?) for patients with chronic health conditions, and in combination with intravenous antioxidant called glutathione (the “master hormone” produced by the human body) for hepatitis C, and liver fibrosis.

Leigh Erin Connealy of Cancer Center for Healing, in Irvine, California, has also claimed to successfully use intravenous curcumin on patients with both rectal cancer and oral cancer:

At Cancer Center for Hope, the cancer clinic where I am medical director, I have used intravenous (IV) curcumin on several patients with very encouraging results. In one instance, for example, I used IV curcumin with a patient I’ll call Debra, who had suffered from a rectal tumor for five years. The tumor extended into her colon, causing a great deal of pain and uncomfortable bowel movements. After just six treatments with intravenous curcumin, her pain dramatically diminished and her bowel movements became more normal. In another case, Richard, a patient with tongue cancer experienced tremendous decrease in the swelling after only one treatment.

Advanced Rejuvenation Institute in Atlanta, Georgia has also been using intravenous turmeric for liver health, inflammation, cancer prevention, and in combination with other cancer treatments.

Ah, yes. Cherry picked anecdotes that don’t really demonstrate anything, the sine qua non of quacks everywhere. Combine that with “make it up as you go along” mixing and matching of intravenous nutrients (like vitamin C) and antioxidants (like glutathione), along with the “natural medicine” du jour, turmeric or the more highly purified curcumin, and you, too, can be at risk for a tragedy such as what happened to Jade Erick. Amusingly “Dr.” Connealy brags that she is the “only doctor in the U.S. currently offering curcumin intravenously” where “the curcumin bypasses the stomach, so 100% of it is absorbed, and it works better and more quickly” and IV dosing “also allows me to give higher doses than could be taken orally.” Of course, the article above shows that Connealy is not the only quack using IV turmeric, but her claim did lead me to wonder if she was the naturopath or “holistic” health practitioner who killed Erick, given that her office is located in southern California. A quick refreshing of my memory of southern California geography told me that it was very unlikely to be Connealy. After all, her Center for New Medicine is located in Irvine, which Google Maps tells me is roughly 60 miles north of Encinitas. Another southern California quack must have stolen her idea. The competition is quite intense there, as I noted above. Either that, or IV turmeric is a new fad that is spreading and we can expect to see more deaths due to what sounds like a hypersensitivity reaction to something in the turmeric solution.

Be that as it may, this case shows three things. First, even something as benign-sounding as turmeric can kill. Indeed, when you administer something intravenously, the risks are magnified because of the very reason Connealy gave, that the dose can be higher. Second, as is usually the case, there are lots of people defending the use of IV turmeric. A perusal of comments after the Facebook entry for this story and this blog post about Erick’s death depressed me enormously.

The third conclusion is the most depressing. Consumer protections, even against complete and utter quacks (which whoever killed Jade Erick is) are depressingly close to nonexistent. Go back to the beginning of this story. The coroner is investigating, and he is concluding that the IV turmeric killed Jade Erick. Yet, as of now, he is calling the death an “accident.” No, it wasn’t. It was negligence. If you administer a treatment that has no good evidence to support it (Not-a-Dr. Stengler says so, which should tell you a lot) for an indication for which it isn’t validated, and your patient is unfortunate enough to have what appears to have been a severe hypersensitivity reaction to your intravenous treatment and dies, you killed her through negligence. My prediction, though, is that nothing will happen to this quack unless the family decides to sue (which they really, really should do), and even then probably nothing will happen to him or her.

These quacks ought to add “007” after their names, because they have a license to kill.

Comments

  1. #1 doug
    March 23, 2017

    From where do these quacks procure extract of turmeric for IV use and curcumin IV if only one person in the US is offering it? Do they come from some specially-licensed compounding pharmacy or the grubby back room of some herbalist joint? This sounds awfully like use of experimental drugs where the patient would have to consent to “totally unknown” outcome.

    There are ophthalmologists in the US who are concerned that diluting, in the OR, PVP-iodine solution with saline to use to prep eyes for cataract surgery might be regarded as compounding outside of an approved compounding pharmacy, yet quacks will administer what is probably completely unstandardized gunk intravenously.

  2. #2 Christine Rose
    March 23, 2017

    How about:
    Holistic Healing Retreat & Spa
    5570 Sunset Blvd W, Roseville, CA 95747

    “Permanently Closed”

  3. #3 TBruce
    March 23, 2017

    Brian Davies, the “functional medicine doctor” in North Van, is not listed as a licensed physician with the BC College. Of course he is a naturopath.
    BTW, does IV turmeric turn you a bright yellow? It certainly makes rice pretty ( and tasty).

  4. #4 Liz Ditz
    United States
    March 23, 2017

    Roseville is in Placer County.

    The death occurred in San Diego County, about 500 miles south.

  5. #5 MI Dawn
    March 23, 2017

    OMG. That’s as crazy as IV H2O2, IV megadoses of vitamin C, and whatever else these wackadoodles infuse into their mark’s veins. Poor woman – she only wanted relief from the itching and plaques. Well, she got it, permanently, leaving her family to grieve.

    I, too, wish the families would sue these currency vampires for all they can.

  6. #6 Eric Lund
    March 23, 2017

    The only five-digit zip code in California with the string 5570 in it is 95570, which Google tells me is the zip code for Trinidad, in northern California (almost halfway to Vancouver). Judging from the zip code in Christine’s suggestion above, I’d say Roseville is also in northern California. Of course that string could be the +4 part of the ZIP+4 code, but that’s less likely to be on a website.

    The practitioner Orac is looking for is almost certainly in San Diego County (the news story specifies that it’s the San Diego County coroner who is investigating). That lets Ms. Connealy off the hook for this specific case, since Irvine is in Orange County. Unfortunately, San Diego County has four area codes, two of which (619 and 858) are entirely within the county, and two others (442 and 760) which cover a large part of southeastern California, as far north as Mono County. Encenitas turns out to be in the 442/760 part of the county.

  7. #7 Narad
    March 23, 2017

    She did show a building with an address of 5570. I couldn’t find who it was

    The San Diego County Medical Examiner, perchance?

    • #8 Orac
      March 23, 2017

      D’oh! That’s what I get for searching “5570” and “Encinitas” plus variants of “holistic,” “naturopathy,” etc. 🙂

  8. #9 Michael J. Dochniak
    Minnesota
    March 23, 2017

    @ Orac,

    You’re a master of deception, while the minions are fixated on locating an address (i.e., 5570) other inquisitive minds
    contemplate the following:

    For decades the science-based medical community used IV tubing that leached antigens into the IV solution causing Hev-b protein sensitization and even death through anaphylactic shock.

    Should science-based physicians be prosecuted for such harm or are they exempt?

    Quote:

    We’re all slight hypocrites who fall short of our ideals.
    – Gillian Jacobs

  9. #10 Panacea
    March 23, 2017

    Well, since IV tumeric isn’t something you can order from a pharmaceutical company, it has to be a home made preparation.

    If it doesn’t dissolve well then well, can anyone say microemboli?

    Makes me think she died of a massive PE.

    But speaking of IV Vit C, one of my graduates sent me an article published in NPR about an article in Chest. Apparently a physician in Virginia has been using IV Vit C combined with steroids and thiamine to treat sepsis. His patients did so well, researchers got an NIH grant to study it.

    It may be just another promising idea that fails to pan out. It certainly doesn’t justify the high dose Vit C quacks promote. But it was interesting.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012369216625643

  10. #11 Orac
    March 23, 2017

    I know.

    We know that curcumin (and turmeric) isn’t very soluble in aqueous solution. That’s a HUGE problem. It’s also why most research is aimed at chemically modifying it to make it more soluble and more bioavailable through the gut and testing those chemically modified variants. We also know the reason that curcumin is not very soluble is because it’s lipophilic, which means that it is like fat and tends to “like” fat. As you say, that makes me wonder if the turmeric solution being used wasn’t really an emulsion, in which the turmeric wasn’t really dissolved, but suspended as small lipophilic droplets. If that’s the case, we would indeed have to worry about emboli.

  11. #12 Woo Fighter
    March 23, 2017

    I learned from Cook’s Illustrated to “bloom” spices in a bit of warm oil to enhance their flavour and aroma as they’re fat soluble, not water soluble.

  12. #13 Tsu Dho Nimh
    March 23, 2017

    If anything, this should be negligent homicide … just like the charges for those people who inject industrial silicon into buttocks as an “enhancement”

  13. #14 Christine Rose
    March 23, 2017

    How about…

    5575 Lake Park Way #114
    La Mesa, CA 91942

    • #15 Orac
      March 23, 2017

      Readers already figured out that the building shown in the video was the San Diego County Medical Examiner’s Office. 🙂

  14. #16 Yvette
    March 23, 2017

    Sayer Ji is a huge fan of turmeric, writing articles like: “800 Reasons Turmeric Threatens Big Pharma.” I gotta admit, he may have a point. Something that kills people is not in the best interest of pharma companies. Dead people are bad customers.

  15. #17 Panacea
    March 23, 2017

    I knew there was something I wanted to address, even at the risk of being pedantic 😉

    There’s nothing negligent about this. Negligence is a failure to exercise reasonable care. There was nothing reasonable about what this quack did.

    The crime is manslaughter; she didn’t intend to kill this patient, but she did.

  16. #18 Sigivald
    March 23, 2017

    Turmeric is for curry, not for mainlining.

  17. #19 JustaTech
    March 23, 2017

    If it’s oil soluble why not mix it in a carrier oil and inject IP (into the gut cavity)? I mean, besides it probably hurts and looks scary.

    San Diego may not have the hippie reputation like SF, but it’s got just as many quacks.

  18. #20 Eric Lund
    March 23, 2017

    @Christine: Narad solved it a ways upthread. The building has nothing to do with the practitioner in question; it’s the office of the San Diego County coroner.

    @JustaTech: IIRC Robert O. Young’s “ranch” is in San Diego County. The concentration of quacks may not be as high as in Los Angeles, but there certainly are lots of quacks in San Diego. And why not: the climate is like LA, but more so.

  19. #21 Denice Walter
    March 23, 2017

    An example of *nearly* perfect timing…

    Natural News blogs artcile:
    “35 Things you didn’t know that Turmeric could do for your body”
    which should be 36, i.e.”kill it”- which they left out of course.

  20. #22 Denice Walter
    March 23, 2017

    I don’t know…
    aren’t QPSM** higher somewhere around MARIN?

    ** quacks per square mile

  21. #23 Eric Lund
    March 23, 2017

    I gotta admit, [Ji] may have a point. Something that kills people is not in the best interest of pharma companies. Dead people are bad customers.

    Turmeric wouldn’t be that much of a threat to Big Pharma, because they aren’t the ones selling the product. It’s more of a threat to practitioners who do IV turmeric treatments.

    There is a chance for some good to come out of this incident. If it persuades people to see real doctors instead of quacks, then Ms. Erick will not have died in vain.

    Orac mentioned in the OP that the report did not name the practitioner in question, possibly out of fear of a lawsuit. If criminal charges are a possibility, then that fear is well-founded. They have to wait for the coroner’s report, to see whether he will recommend a criminal investigation of the case. If he doesn’t, and the report had named the practitioner, then that looks to me (IANAL) like a slam-dunk defamation case.

  22. #24 herr doktor bimler
    March 23, 2017

    There’s been a lot of in vitro research [on turmeric] in cell culture performed
    And an impressive amount of it turns out to be junk, with a lot of influential papers (Aggerwal’s for instance) retracted for made-up data.

  23. #25 Eric Lund
    March 23, 2017

    aren’t QPSM** higher somewhere around MARIN?

    Marin County has a significantly higher population density. San Diego County extends a fair distance inland, into the desert, so it has large areas with few or no inhabitants. Marin County has Muir Woods and Point Reyes, but the rest of the county ranges from exurban to urban.

  24. #26 Narad
    March 23, 2017

    Orac mentioned in the OP that the report did not name the practitioner in question, possibly out of fear of a lawsuit. If criminal charges are a possibility, then that fear is well-founded. They have to wait for the coroner’s report, to see whether he will recommend a criminal investigation of the case. If he doesn’t, and the report had named the practitioner, then that looks to me (IANAL) like a slam-dunk defamation case.

    Simple facts are not defamatory, nor are conclusions based on disclosed facts. Assertions that imply undisclosed facts are where one gets into trouble. A browse around Popehat will hammer this home in short order.

  25. #27 doug
    March 23, 2017

    Soy bean oil is a fairly common component of IV medications that are lipid soluble, such as propofol I suspect soy bean oil is far too déclassé for California. Is coconut oil still in vogue? Maybe avocado oil?

  26. #28 sadmar
    March 23, 2017

    Greater San Diego is likely quackier than greater LA. The Orange County airport is named for Ronald “Nancy’s astrologer told me pollution comes from trees” Reagan, and, of course, it’s Bob Sears country. I’m convinced the right wing rank and file are more into quackery than the exp-hippie types, due to the prevalence of the ‘competitive’ variety of magical thinking that predominates there. When the sports talk is boring, I channel surf AM in the car, and will check into the far-right talk radio [KSFO]. There are as many ads for ‘get healthy quick and easy’ scams as for ‘get rich quick and easy’ scams – and unlike web ads, radio ads do reveal what the audience is into and buys. I even heard one the other days touting some ‘natural’ formula as a cure for MS.

    As for NoCal, I’d say Sonoma County – just to the Northeast of Marin – is actually significantly more woo-ey…

  27. #29 Tom B
    South Carolina
    March 23, 2017

    Off topic but have Lissa Rankin and her books been skeptically criticized anywhere? A cousin of mine has bought into her “teaching” and is now bending spoons with her “mind”.

  28. #30 Eric Lund
    March 23, 2017

    The Orange County airport is named for Ronald “Nancy’s astrologer told me pollution comes from trees” Reagan

    I just checked my recollection of this on Google: the Orange County Airport (SNA) is named after John Wayne. It’s Washington National Airport (DCA) that was named after Reagan–never mind that it was already named after a President. However, calling DCA Reagan in the Washington area reveals you to be one or more of (1) a clueless out-of-towner, (2) a Republican politician (but I repeat myself), or (3) somebody who has to deal with people in the first two categories.

    There may be some smaller airport in Orange County that was named after Reagan, but the one that scheduled passenger airlines serve is SNA.

  29. #31 sadmar
    March 23, 2017

    I found Jade Alexandra Erick’s FB page, still there as ‘in memorium’. She worked making subs at Jersy Mike’s and as a barrista at Target. She seems to have used FB mainly only to post photos – didn’t see anything about her medical treatment. But there was this post from 6/16;

    Today is Cancer Survivor Day. Can I ask a favor?? Just a few of you will do it, and I know who you possibly are. ❤️????If you know someone who fought a battle against cancer and passed away, or someone who is still struggling, or know a brave survivor ❤️????copy and paste this to your status to show support, respect and love. ❤️????❤️???? #cancersucks

    Since tumeric is alleged to have anti-cancer properties, I suspect the report that Erick was using it to treat eczema is not the whole story. I wonder if this was another ‘don’t want chemo’ or even a ‘can’t get chemo because of no coverage’, story as it seems she was working two low wages part-time jobs…

    We may see a lot more tumeric IVs under whatever the GOP winds up with ‘replace’ the ACA.

    .

  30. #32 sadmar
    March 23, 2017

    Eric:

    You’re right. It’s just John Wayne, there isn’t another one named after Ronnie. I was having a senior moment.

  31. #33 Orac
    March 23, 2017

    Don’t forget that San Diego also Robert O. Young territory, he of the “pH Miracle Living” quackery. His Rancho del Sol, an avocado and grapefruit ranch that he turned into a quack retreat called the pH Miracle Center, is located in Valley Center, which is in northern San Diego County. It was where desperate patients with cancer and other serious diseases used to go to pay him large sums of money to seek healing from his “pH Miracle” lifestyle and diet; that is, before he was convicted of fraud and practicing medicine without a license (IIRC).

  32. #34 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    March 23, 2017

    One off the wall reason is that this holistic person is really an alien with an Asian copy of How to Serve Man.

    If turmeric works so well, why not use ghost pepper juice; at least you’ll have a hot exit.

    I grieve for the stupidity/ignorance of so many people. Robert Heinlein stated stupidity/ignorance is its own death penalty.

  33. #35 herr doktor bimler
    March 23, 2017

    Turmeric is for curry, not for mainlining

    And for art. Anish Kapoor used to use it in his early sculptures (back when he was still funny).

  34. #36 Panacea
    March 23, 2017

    “Stupidity cannot be cured. Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death. There is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.” Robert A. Heinlein.

    Said stupidity often being preceded by the words, “Hold my beer.”

    As for defamation, Narad hit the nail on the head. Reporters report deaths and circumstances of death, and the connection to persons who may be involved with those deaths all the time.

    Usually the word “allegedly” is involved somewhere. You can say Fraud McQuackster, naturopathic doctor, allegedly adminstered IV turmeric to Ima Deadguy as a treatment for Ms. Deadguy’s eczema. Ms. Deadguy died on X date at Y hospital, an autopsy is pending.

  35. #37 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    March 23, 2017

    Thanks Panacea for giving Heinlein’s actual quote. Mine was to simplistic.

    The unfortunate problem is that so much stupid is surviving today.

  36. #38 Narad
    March 23, 2017

    Robert Heinlein stated stupidity/ignorance is its own death penalty.

    And the barrel of “Social Darwinism” is repugnant from stinking top to slime-covered bottom, so there’s that, too.

  37. #39 Panacea
    March 23, 2017

    Heinlein is one of my favorite authors. I don’t agree with his libertarian worldview, but he does know how to spin a yarn.

    And yeah, it is so painful listening to the stupid today. A direct consequence of the dismantling of public education, in my view.

  38. #40 Derek Freyberg
    March 23, 2017

    And for other sad ventures into pseudo-medicine,
    last Saturday 56-year-old Yu-Ping Xie died in San Francisco after ingesting a “medicinal tea” allegedly prescribed for her by the owner of the Sun Wing Wo Trading Company, a shop in San Francisco’s Chinatown. The San Francisco Chronicle reports that a man in his 30s was hospitalized in a separate incident after apparently ingesting teas from the same herbalist, but he has since recovered. The cause is believed to be aconite in both teas, but the medical examiner has yet to determine the official cause of death for Ms. Xie.

  39. #41 Narad
    March 23, 2017

    Soy bean oil is a fairly common component of IV medications that are lipid soluble, such as propofol

    <vinu>If only someone had checked what Michael Jackson ate the day he died, the Truth would be Known.<vinu>

    I suspect soy bean oil is far too déclassé for California. Is coconut oil still in vogue?

    The local grocery store just began stocking around six different varieties, two of them Crisco branded and the others fancier. Oh, and jarred tallow, duck fat, and “Berkshire” lard (not labeled as leaf lard, mind you). Might have to do with the establishment of a pretty crappy Whole Foods nearby, but their stocking isn’t particularly coherent in general.

  40. #42 Can't remember my 'nym
    or where I am
    March 23, 2017

    “It’s more investigational” – grrr. There is a big difference between investigating potential treatments and throwing sh!t at a wall to see what sticks.

  41. #43 Narad
    March 23, 2017

    Heinlein is one of my favorite authors. I don’t agree with his libertarian worldview, but he does know how to spin a yarn.

    I pretty much started and ended with Have Space Suit, Will Travel, which remains one of my favorite bits of juvenalia. Beats the pants off of A Wrinkle in Time, with which it shares some late plot similarities, IIRC & IMNSHO.

  42. #44 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    March 23, 2017

    One of my favorite RAH books is not seen often and is a transition between juvenal and later works: Glory Road.

  43. #45 Narad
    March 23, 2017

    Oh, but, “spicy tastiness”? This has come up more than once (e.g., here, but there’s another food digression around somewhere).

  44. #46 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    March 23, 2017

    I know since his death, Heinlein has come to be portrayed as some kind of extreme right-winger. I can only say that if there’s one outside influence in my formative years that’s responsible for turning me into the raging lefty I am, it would be him.

    I think there’s a great deal f confusion about the term “libertarian”. Nowadays, with a capital “L”, it means “So far off the political spectrum to the right as to be in an alternate universe”. In my day (and Heinlein’s) it just meant “anti-authoritarian”, which I certainly am….

    (Don’t read anything after The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Everything he wrote after his stroke is just embarrassing. There’s even a term: “Heinlein Syndrome”. It means “Getting anything published even though no one would ever imagine it to be of publishable quality without that name attached to it”.)

  45. #47 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    March 23, 2017

    Very good point. Starship Troopers is an excellent book but a horrible movie.

    A good example of RAH not being a capital L libertarian is in Tunnel in the Sky after the first leader dies from the stoat attack and the hero of the takes over but demands that the laws that had been put in place remain place.

  46. #48 Orac
    March 23, 2017

    Actually, Starship Troopers is a great movie made from a so-so book. The movie was basically an excellent satire of fascism disguised as an SF action flick about a war with an insect race. I didn’t get that as well as I should have first time I saw it, but with subsequent viewings I’ve come to appreciate what a subversive masterpiece the movie is, with war movie stereotypes fodder for some wicked satire.

    In contrast, the book was often tendentious (particularly the classroom chapters) and, for a book about starship troopers, surprisingly kind of dull. It was probably the most disappointing novel I’ve read that won a Hugo Award, and I expected a lot more from Heinlein.

  47. #49 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    March 23, 2017

    @ Rich Bly:

    Remember Starship Troopers was from 1959. Everybody was feeling a frisson of “Well, aren’t I open-minded!” following the experiences of a hero with a Hispanic name. Imagine their shock to learn, only on the last page, that he’s a…gasp!…Filipino!

  48. #50 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    March 23, 2017

    Orac,

    I think my biggest disagreement with movie compared to the book is that the book is about the growth and coming of age of a young man vs. the movie as you state is more satire. But also, the movie uses such bad science you would think it is coming from trump’s mouth.

  49. #51 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    March 23, 2017

    So when is that fluorescent yellow hot dog mustard going to start having all kinds of “studies show…” on their ads? It has no other selling points.

  50. #52 Mary Anderson
    Florida
    March 23, 2017

    Just goes to show that tastes vary. I love Heinlein’s later books. Number of the Beast and To Sail Beyond the Sunset are two of my all time favorite books. I like his early stuff, too. I don’t always agree with him and sometimes he pisses me off, but his point of view is always very clear and well thought out, and it always makes me think.

  51. #53 Panacea
    March 23, 2017

    Starship Troopers the novel is about why military service matters, and what it means to be a good citizen. It is very much a philosophical story, very unlike the “juveniles” that came before it (Citizen of the Galaxy was my first Heinlein title and it remains a favorite). That’s why it won a Hugo, and why some modern readers have trouble relating to it. Remember, Heinlein was a graduate of the Naval Academy. He retired on medical disability.

    I actually like his later works quite well. Stranger in a Strange Land is bizarre beyond words, but entertaining. To Sail Beyond the Sunset is a favorite title, but my real favorite character is Pixel. Job a Comedy of Justice is the only book that I just did not like.

  52. #54 Can't remember my 'nym
    or where I am
    March 23, 2017

    ‘Stranger in a Strange Land’ is one of my favourite books full stop, I have gifted it to so many people. It helped shape the way I think, though I did read it at a time when I was really exploring my own psychology and interested in, um, expanding my consciousness. I have read only a couple of his other works as I am not broadly a fan of science fiction.

    For context (and FWIW) my other favourite books include 1984, Grapes of Wrath, and most anything by Aldous Huxley.

  53. #55 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    March 23, 2017

    Oh, Stranger in a Strange Land was a life-altering experience at the time….

    His first novel after his stroke was I Will Fear no Evil, which was horrifyingly bad.

  54. #56 Panacea
    March 23, 2017

    So bad I forgot all about it. Blissfully.

  55. #57 doug
    March 23, 2017

    Jeebus, Narad, I was afraid I’d conjure V hisself.

    On sober* reflection, it is clear to me that turmeric should be extracted with ghee for IV use.

    *why am I sober? Perhaps I should mount shanks mare and hie to the emporium for a couple cans of Big Rock Scottish Heavy

  56. #58 herr doktor bimler
    March 23, 2017

    I love Heinlein’s later books.
    “Friday” has characters in New Zealand talking about the two main landmasses as “North Island” and “South Island”, when in fact they ALWAYS have the definite article. That led me to suspect Heinlein’s veracity.
    Unless you are from the Sth Island, in which case the alternative titles are “Pig Island” and “the Mainland” respectively.

  57. #59 Panacea
    March 23, 2017

    Heinlein did visit New Zealand at least once during his life, when he and his wife Virginia took a round the world trip by boat (before cruise ships were a thing). He wasn’t impressed with some aspects of the government and society (socialism). He wrote about it in Tramp Royale.

  58. #60 Uromastyx
    March 24, 2017

    Just wanted to point out that the options for classification of manner of death by a medical examiner are natural, accidental, homicide, suicide, and undetermined. These classifiers are for death reporting, and do not necessarily correspond to what may be found by a court. For example, an accidental death might still be tried as a criminal or civil case. A death in self defense might still be classified as homicide. I despise woo as much as the next person, but I don’t think “accidental” is necessarily inappropriate here in a strictly medicolegal sense.

  59. #61 Narad
    March 24, 2017

    Just by the by, Encinitas Acupuncture and Massage will hook you up, as it were.

    • #62 Orac
      March 27, 2017

      I think we have a winner here. I bet that’s the one…

  60. #63 Jane Doe
    San Diego, CA
    March 24, 2017

    I’m very willing to bet it was Dr. Amanda Ward’s Clinic or her staff at Bloom Natural Health. She was part of a big scam down in San Diego a few years ago with her scumbag live-in boyfriend of @10 year, Chris Cozzie/Cozzi (tinyurl.com/lwmbmx3). He was a felon and @25 years older than her (can you say golddigger). She was the “medical director” for his scam business and he (quite illegally) owned her medical practice (tinyurl.com/m2aghrh). He’d been running scams, setting up shell corporations and getting sued for years, until the FBI caught up with him when he scammed a bunch of people out of about $500k (tinyurl.com/kmp82t5). Somehow, all the money disappeared, but at just the same time, Dr. Ward ended up with a beautiful new clinic, “Bloom Natural Health”, with well over $100k in new medical equipment that just appeared out of thin air (the staff was asked not to ask any questions) and a beautiful new house. Not bad for a new ND barely out of school where incomes are usually about $50k – and she ain’t no rocket scientist either. In my opinion, her practice is just built on dirty, laundered money. I could go on, but won’t, and if you want to read more about her ethics, just read the complaint from the State of California about how she was running her practice (tinyurl.com/k7x8jbe). Dangerous! She’s a shallow human being too, because after Mr. Cozzie was convicted and sentenced and diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, she dumped him. Nice, eh? Despite the tone of this blog, most NDs are wonder human beings who do wonderful work. Dr. Ward is the exception to the rule.

  61. #64 vinu arumugham
    United States
    March 24, 2017

    Orac is a hypocrite.

    The FDA says, if you can eat it, you can inject it.

    https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/ucm187810.htm

    “Sugars, amino acids and proteins are not unique to vaccines and are encountered in everyday life in the diet and are components that are in the body naturally.”

    The FDA’s food protein contaminated vaccines, maim people by causing allergies, asthma, autism and murders them with anaphylaxis (the same hypersensitivity reaction that Orac speculates killed Jade Erick).

    Medical muddles that maim our children with allergies, asthma and autism

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313918596_Medical_muddles_that_maim_our_children_with_allergies_asthma_and_autism

    Orac thinks food protein contaminated vaccines are the pinnacles of medical success.

    So, how can he blame this quack? The quack was performing the same quackery as the FDA, — injecting food.

    Orac and “Consumer protections”? What about consumer protection for victims of FDA quackery (vaccines)?

    The vaccine court is a quack court that ignores science just like the FDA.

    Orac: “nothing will happen to this quack unless the family decides to sue”

    Yes, and nothing will happen to the horribly contaminated unsafe vaccines, unless the victims are allowed to sue the vaccine makers.

  62. #65 Lee Miles
    March 24, 2017

    Yeah. Drugs can kill. You should write an article about thalidomide.

  63. #67 herr doktor bimler
    March 24, 2017

    “Stupidity cannot be cured. Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death. There is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.” Robert A. Heinlein.

    We are all stupid in our different ways, about different subjects, and the universe executes us all, so to that rather trivial extent Heinlein was righ…, but I don’t know if there is a strong correlation between speed of execution and location on the dumbness continuum.

  64. #68 Johannes von Galt
    Galt's Glitch, USA
    March 24, 2017

    But I’ll bet her blood tasted just AWESOME…
    Especially if she was injecting cumin, too.
    Type O-positive Curry Biryani, stat!
    .
    .
    .
    What, too soon?

  65. #69 Sarah
    Australia
    March 24, 2017

    I’m a naturopath in Australia (Bachelor of Health Science) and doing Masters of Nursing. We primarily work as nutritionists and utilise evidence based herbal medicine. I have never in my life heard of using any component of turmeric in an IV solution. That is disturbing.

  66. #70 Julian Frost
    Gauteng North
    March 24, 2017

    @hdb:

    I don’t know if there is a strong correlation between speed of execution and location on the dumbness continuum.

    http://www.darwinawards.com/

  67. #71 Johannes von Galt
    Galt's Glitch, USA
    March 24, 2017

    “The unfortunate problem is that so much stupid is surviving today.”

    Not just surviving, but elected to very high offices, where it is able to impose its will on hundreds of millions — indeed, billions — of not-stupid people.

  68. #72 Eric Lund
    March 24, 2017

    I read a bunch of Heinlein when I was a younger man. Some of it ages well: my favorite of his novels is The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and Stranger in a Strange Land also holds up well. But I have largely outgrown Heinlein’s philosophy. Starship Troopers, the novel (I’ve never seen the movie), always struck me as a propaganda tract: the point is to get you to agree with Heinlein’s opinion on the subject, whether or not you actually do (I don’t). And Heinlein has admitted that much: he wrote it in the late 1950s, in part due to his frustration about American politicians not agreeing with him about the seriousness of the Soviet/Communist threat, on which topic he was about as far right as the John Birch Society.

  69. #73 Politicalguineapig
    March 24, 2017

    Johannes:Not just surviving, but elected to very high offices, where it is able to impose its will on hundreds of millions — indeed, billions — of not-stupid people.

    I think you’re overestimating the number of smart people. There’s no way smart people number in even the thousands. The simple fact is, most people want to be stupid, evil, heartless, and to destroy everything. (Much like the guy you reference in your moniker.)

    Heck, out of the millions in America only one person in a hundred wants national parks, art, other people to have food, or even clean air.

  70. #74 Panacea
    March 24, 2017

    @Uromastx: I’ll agree with that. I get civil lawsuits all the time where the coroner has ruled the death natural or accidental. It doesn’t matter if the death is natural if the circumstances leading to that death involve medical or nursing malpractice.

    @vinu: I was wondering when you’d put in your half cent.

    You have badly mischaracterized what the FDA has said. They did NOT say “if you can eat it you can inject it.” They said that the sugars, amino acids and proteins used in vaccines are not harmful in the form that they are injected. Since the body is used to metabolizing them, that’s what happens to them.

    You do understand, I hope, that there is a world of difference between injecting a protein and literally injecting food. Injecting proteins for nutritional purposes actually has a long, well studied medical history: it’s called Total Parenteral Nutrition (TPN), and it is the solution of choice for patients who have high metabolic needs and/or cannot take in food via the GI tract or one reason or another. Burn patients come to mind.

    Injecting a literal spice used to flavor food with no clinical evidence it does anything is not the equivalent of TPN. If the substance is not produced in such a way where it remains dissolved in solution then it will activate platelets and hence the coagulation cascade. This can happen at a microscopic level, but these emboli can clog capillary beds anywhere in the body. When they do so in the circulatory system of the lungs we call that a Pulmonary Embolus, and it’s life threatening. Fatty emboli can do the exact same thing, and the turmeric in question is full of fatty lipoprotiens. Hence my early comment on PE’s.

    Our vaccines are not contaminated and have a decades long safety record. You cannot compare what this quack did with the record on vaccination.

    HDB: A Darwin Award aside, it does seem like the colossally stupid do somehow manage to beat the odds of survival. I attribute that to the structures of modern civlization created by smart people, that protect everyone from the consequences of most stupidity and also bad luck. Hence, seat belt laws, vaccination requirements for school, Social Security, Medicare, and so on.

    Johannes: yes. Too soon.

    • #75 vinu arumugham
      United States
      March 24, 2017

      “They said that the sugars, amino acids and proteins used in vaccines are not harmful in the form that they are injected. Since the body is used to metabolizing them, that’s what happens to them. ”

      Relevant citations please.

  71. #76 Eric Lund
    March 24, 2017

    @PGP: I’ve warned you about this before: your Eeyore act is getting thin. Sure, things are bad, but they aren’t nearly as bad as you claim. If you actually do live in a place where only 1% of the population favor clean air, you need to move somewhere that has a less toxic political environment, because I can assure you that the actual percentage in this country that favor clean air is much larger than that.

    Other survival tips:
    1. Never, ever, read the comments on news sites. Trolls live under those bridges.
    2. Pay no attention to TV news–it’s toxic and conveys negative amounts of information. I don’t just mean Fox News; CNN and MSNBC are almost as bad.
    3. Go interact with people in meat space once in a while. Only a small minority of them are toxic, and most of the time it’s easy to avoid the ones who are.

  72. #77 Andrew
    March 24, 2017

    Sad that the author takes so much pleasure out of this terrible event.

    Not all naturopathic doctors believe in or offer IV therapy.

    Don’t assume and drop the glee surrounding this tragedy.

  73. #78 B P
    San Diego
    March 24, 2017

    Its very interesting all of you hating on holistic health and assuming truths that you have no idea about the real details of the situation. This article is written solely on personal belief none which are facts and yet because they use the word Science you all believe it. I love how Western Doctors kill people every day due to neglect and yet you still put your faith in them, but one person dies to holistic health and you call them a quack! I work In Naturopathic Medicine and we say those of you who are non-believers will at some point a year or years from now will be in our clinics after you have been dragged thru the Western Medicine idea of healing which is filling your body up with tons of toxic pharmaceuticals.

  74. #79 Joshua Waicunas
    Waterbury CT.
    March 24, 2017

    I have personally been witness to the many benefits of carcumuniods….One of which was a close friend.who had stage four pancreatic I cancer…This person had no appetite..Could barley eàt.or even​ hold down food…Pale.. Extremely weak..And had large visible swlling….. Week​ one color back… Appetite returned..abe to hold down​ food.. Energy returned .. Week 3o visible signs of swelling… Appeared to be in normal health…… Again I’m not making claims or any diagnosis ..Or medical claims ..Just what I’ve experienced and been witness to ..And this was not the only case just one of several .. Personal experiencs with cancer……Same with arthritis both kinds… Due to said . Antiviral properties .Along with antinflamtory …..8-9 poeple I know all swear by it…I’ve seen a close friend of mine who had persistent gout in his hand for about a year…None of the medications offered to him seemed to help…One dose of tumeric that evening…Swelling half way down the next morning….Day two and four more doses.swelling completely gone …No pain…..Now you can claim that there’s no proof…At some point it becomes hard to ignore results… Repeated rdemomstratable results becomes proof beyond mere coincidence or plecebo…But as believer in carcumuniods..ither are a good amount of studies being done….By credible researchs…..Im not aware of any by the Front the FDA…If that’s the only marker you accept.How ever we know that e body has a hard time absorbing and utilizing..The active components…But can be increased dramatically by taking with fats….Olive oil… Grapeseed oil or others.. Flaxseed…Or b..Pepper…I’ve been witness to terrific results orally….Bieng fat soluble..It’s a very disconcerting to me to be itraducing it intravenously…Not only that completely unnecessary.. Almost like a marketing ploy…. Completely irresponsible from what I understand …Too much stimulates interferon production verry high in large doses….Causing irriblilitiy depression….While in lower doses can benefit depression….So my point is that using the word quack as a blanket statement about N.D.s… Other .. Alternative Health providers… Herbalists​…..Is also irresponsible…
    . Just as not every M.D….Is a good MAD……In fact there are many terrible ones out there weather working on the fringes of medicine……Jails… Treatment program’s . Regardless….Just as in the medical field there are horrible​ horrific mistakes….incompetency to be found in and among both…. Even with all the safeguards oversight. Incompetency continues to proliferate..It seems in all walks of life in ever feild….It’s horrible what happened to the person that this happened too…. Absolutely….. However don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater….And let me make it clear that I agree that there may be a bigger problem with this in alternative medicine…It opens the door of opportunity for those who prey on the sick….But there are people doing wonderful work and research amidst all of this….One or several hotter stories… Doesn’t discredit anything…..But undermines credibility…… Terrible for everyone…….
    .

  75. #80 Dangerous Bacon
    March 24, 2017

    In related holistic news, Swiss veterinary students are learning how to treat cows with acupuncture:

    https://www.thelocal.ch/20170323/swiss-cows-to-receive-acupuncture-in-new-classes-for-trainee-vets

    It’s well known that raw milk from Swiss acupuncture-treated cows is 77% more likely to cure cancer than if you drank Diet Coke.

  76. #81 Narad
    March 24, 2017

    I work In Naturopathic Medicine

    Do go on.

  77. #82 Narad
    March 24, 2017

    If you actually do live in a place where only 1% of the population favor clean air, you need to move somewhere that has a less toxic political environment

    PGP lives in her own head, which appears to be the psychic equivalent of a Superfund site. Tat tvam asi.

  78. #83 Narad
    March 24, 2017

    ^ G-ddamn blockquotes.

  79. #84 Eric Lund
    March 24, 2017

    It’s well known that raw milk from Swiss acupuncture-treated cows is 77% more likely to cure cancer than if you drank Diet Coke.

    This is almost as well known as the fact that 43% of statistics are made up on the spot.

  80. #85 TroubleMaker
    March 24, 2017

    “Marin County has a significantly higher population density. San Diego County extends a fair distance inland, into the desert, so it has large areas with few or no inhabitants. Marin County has Muir Woods and Point Reyes, but the rest of the county ranges from exurban to urban.”

    Totally nit-picking here, but this is just spectacularly wrong. Most of Marin County is rural. The urban/suburban areas are almost entirely concentrated along the US-101 corridor and it’s all pretty low-density, even for the Bay Area.

  81. #86 rs
    March 24, 2017

    Ooooh…an ellipsis crank.

  82. #87 Narad
    March 24, 2017

    Ooooh…an ellipsis crank.

    He really put AoA’s Bob Moffit to shame with that performance.

  83. #88 herr doktor bimler
    March 24, 2017

    Ooooh…an ellipsis crank.

    Joshua Waicunas… spent too much time at the gym… on the elliptical trainer…

    He should try the hyperbolic trainer! It’s a thousand times better!!

  84. #89 herr doktor bimler
    March 24, 2017

    Don’t assume and drop the glee surrounding this tragedy.

    “Andrew” misspelled “ghee”.

  85. #90 NumberWang
    March 24, 2017

    Wouldn’t Swiss acupuncture be Western Medicine?

  86. #91 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    March 24, 2017

    Swiss acupuncture is part of their cheese industry, how else could you get Swiss cheese. Hate to see the size of those needles.

  87. #92 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    March 24, 2017

    Addendum to my above comment: It is probably called udderpuncture.

  88. #93 Dangerous Bacon
    March 24, 2017

    “Bieng fat soluble..It’s a very disconcerting to me”

    So, you’ve got to be ultra-careful never to spill mayonnaise on your skin?

  89. #94 prn
    March 24, 2017

    IV tumeric is a new one to me. Oral or rectal I’ve heard of, and the apparently warm side effects of rectal might make either providers or patients skittish about shooting it. I too would have thought curcuminoids would be used.

    I can only wonder what her problems were, because usually even IV vitamin C patients usually have fatal cancer, viruses, or infections; intense and/or chronic pain or problems driving them to try IV vitamin C.

    MI Dawn@5
    OMG. That’s as crazy as… IV megadoses of vitamin C,
    Although I know you’re not alone here, the comment is non-observational and counter factual in the Klennerian range, say over 40 grams of C per meter2 per infusion, as to be delusionally ignorant. It is a standalone treatment for some things and an important component in complicated cases.

  90. #95 Gilbert
    March 24, 2017

    The simple fact is, most people want to be stupid, evil, heartless, and to destroy everything.

    **looks around** Well, yeah. That cuts to the very heart of those engaging in ‘lawn care’.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/08/03/my-town-calls-my-lawn-a-nuisance-but-i-still-refuse-to-mow-it/?postshare=9241470881470420&tid=ss_fb-bottom&utm_term=.69163f

  91. #96 rs
    March 24, 2017

    “He should try the hyperbolic trainer! It’s a thousand times better!!”

    Except that you never reach your destination.

  92. #97 Craig Thomas
    March 24, 2017

    On March 23, 2017, Michael J. Dochniak inexplicably typed,

    “For decades the science-based medical community used IV tubing that leached antigens into the IV solution causing Hev-b protein sensitization and even death through anaphylactic shock.”

    Clearly the argument here is, “medicine isn’t perfect, therefore crazy people should be allowed to sell non-evidence based quackery as they see fit”.

    …and I wonder if crazy people understand formal logic…?

  93. #98 Craig Thomas
    March 24, 2017

    On March 24, 2017, prn quackled,

    “Although I know you’re not alone here, the comment is non-observational and counter factual in the Klennerian range, say over 40 grams of C per meter2 per infusion, as to be delusionally ignorant. It is a standalone treatment for some things and an important component in complicated cases.”

    Only in your delusional mind is Vitamin C a treatment for anything – unless you can show us the published research of course…

  94. #99 JP
    March 24, 2017

    …and I wonder if crazy people understand formal logic…?

    Hey now, I do!

  95. #100 herr doktor bimler
    March 24, 2017

    Addendum to my above comment: It is probably called udderpuncture.

    Uddendum to your above comment: if you use a viper to administer the treatment, it is called adderpuncture.

  96. #101 Lee Miles
    March 24, 2017

    [hedberg] …the holes rob you of cheese. This is a clever cheese saving technique. I go down to the factory, “You owe me some holes!” [/hedberg]

  97. #102 doug
    March 24, 2017

    … adderpuncture

    The risk of contracting herpatitis is great.

    When the serpents were instructed to go forth and multiply, the adders were forced to use logarithms.

  98. #103 doug
    March 24, 2017

    Friday pfui! That should be herpetitis.

  99. #104 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    March 24, 2017

    HDB, to determine if the adderpuncture works you have to choose your viper carefully. If the udder increases in size it maybe from normal milk production or you used a puff adder.

    Of course if I am going to use a Viper I want one with about 700hp.

  100. #105 Panacea
    March 24, 2017

    @Rich: and a girl named Cleo in the passenger seat?

    Sorry. It was there.

    Vinu: if you want citations, pick up any textbook of medicine or nursing and read the chapter on metabolism. Or better yet, just go back to the same FDA webpage you yourself cited.

    Andrew: You may not believe in IVs but I assure you they exist. However, I’m glad to hear some of these nuts know better than to mess with at least one thing they don’t understand.

    No one is gleeful that this young lady lost her life. If anything, angry about it. Don’t mistake derision for quacks as glee.

    BP: more than one person has died to your quackery, which is anything but holistic “health.” However, your complaint is quite disingenuous; if so called naturopaths want to demand accountability from SBM providers you need to be willing to demand it from your own.

    Joshua: did you graduate from the William Shatner School of Naturopathy?

    prn: read the article. She had eczema. Hardly a life threatening condition.

  101. #106 herr doktor bimler
    March 24, 2017

    “He should try the hyperbolic trainer! It’s a thousand times better!!”
    Except that you never reach your destination.

    They told me it would make me asymptomatic.

  102. #107 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    March 24, 2017

    Panacea,

    I had to look up the Cleo reference. There could a lot worse passengers to have along for the ride.

  103. #108 Panacea
    March 24, 2017

    She’s a loose woman. Her last two boyfriends met dubious ends. 😉

  104. #109 Alain
    March 24, 2017

    Panacea: do you have a link or at least, a few good google keywords (Alain <– rusty google skill in need of fixing).

    Rich: 700hp is nearly for wimp (speaking from experience with rides in 500+hp cars). Go twin-turbo in that viper and have the ACR model for preferences (it hook up better as compared to the GTS).

    Alain

  105. #110 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    March 25, 2017

    Alain, my real car of choice is the Nissan GTR NISMO. A Viper wont touch it on a road course. Viper 8.4 liter V10 vs 3.8 liter twin turbo that puts out about the same hp. The GTR NISMO is considered a Ferrari and lambo killer.

  106. #111 Kelly
    WA
    March 25, 2017

    I am actually doing IV curcumin for my inoperable brain cancer. I have had chemo and radiation and it is dying, however my issues stem from the sheer mass of my tumor causing severe symptoms. I kept hearing about taking curcumin supplements, and decided I had nothing to lose. After 2 months of taking curcumin pills my tumor shrank 2mm. It was the first MRI that I have EVER had that my tumor actually shrank. I decided to try the IV route to get it more into my system. IT IS DEFINITELY MORE EXPENSIVE THAN AN INSURANCE PLAN TO COVER CHEMO FOR SURE! There is a reason they do, or in this sad situation they SHOULD have done a small test dose. I had to come in and get this before they administered the actual dose to me to make sure I didn’t have any allergic/adverse reactions. I keep seeing the word “quack” thrown around in a lot of these posts, but many of the patients getting these expensive treatments have tried chemo/radiation and it is their last hope. A lot of you should be so lucky you are not in that desperate of a situation, and until then-quit judging. During my time getting my IV’s there have been others in there getting curcumin IV’s as well. I have asked them if they have noticed a difference, and 2 of the 3 I have asked said their scans show shrinkage of their tumors without any other variable thrown in the mix. The one other had just started and said it was too early to tell. Since starting the IV’s I have had to take FAR less pain medication to get me through the day. I would say being able to go through a day feeling almost like a healthy person makes it definitely worth my time and money, regardless if it truly ends up shrinking my tumor or not. i will know in June, my next MRI.

  107. #112 Lucy
    March 26, 2017

    Stop lying you fucking whore!!

    Go take your chemo. It’s expensive for a reason. That means it fucking works!!

  108. #113 Chris
    March 26, 2017

    Kelly: “I am actually doing IV curcumin for my inoperable brain cancer.”

    Where!? Seriously, where is this happening!?

  109. #114 ctsciencenut
    CT
    March 26, 2017

    It is important to teach our youth that “natural” is not a synonym for “safe” when it comes to medicine. http://www.ctsciencenut.com

  110. #115 Panacea
    March 26, 2017

    Kelly, there is no scientific evidence that the curcumin is having any impact on your tumor. You’ve had chemotherapy; it is much more likely the chemo is what had the effect on your tumor and your pain.

    You do indeed have a lot to lose. Your money, and your life if you have stopped chemotherapy in favor of an unproven treatment. It is a sad story we have seen here many, many times.

    Chris: it seems Kelly lives in Washington State. Big place, hard to know for sure exactly where.

  111. #116 DLC
    Somewhere that will soon be over 37C
    March 26, 2017

    Um, right . . . please people, save the tumeric for your tandoori.

  112. #117 Chris
    March 26, 2017

    Panacea, or it could be Western Australia. I was hoping for an answer in which type of clinic. I sincerely doubt it is one associated with the Seattle Cancer Care Alliance.

  113. #118 Dangerous Bacon
    March 26, 2017

    Is “Lucy” yet another Travis manifestation?

    His sock puppets have a tendency to behave badly, but this is worse than usual.

  114. #119 Panacea
    March 26, 2017

    @Chris: maybe, but doesn’t Australia have socialized medicine? She talks about insurance, which made me think US.

  115. #120 Kelly
    Seattle, WA
    March 26, 2017

    Panacea and Chris I live in Seattle, WA. Panacea I had chemo over two years ago, it was given to me after my PET scan showed “hot spots” or areas of malignancy. My tumor is a benign ganglioglioma, which now after multiple PET scans they believe my tumor does not have areas of malignancy, but rather the spots are from radiation damage. Obviously if I needed chemo I would have gone through it, which I did. Unfortunately after I went through a year of it they said it was likely unnecessary. In the 8+ consecutive MRI’s after chemo, my tumor slowly grew. EVERY SINGLE ONE. I took curcumin for 3 months straight, and my MRI showed that my tumor had shrunk 2 mm. This was the ONLY scan I have EVER had where it shrank and not grew. I have inflammation around the tumor as a result of gamma knife radiation. It is likely helping with inflammation which reduces the pain. Yes it is expensive, but I have felt the benefits of it. I don’t care if you say there is no scientific evidence it is doing anything to my tumor, but it makes me have to take less pain meds to get through the day. The money to me is less important than having a quality of life.

  116. #121 Chris
    March 26, 2017

    Panacea, I think you can buy extra health insurance in Australia.

    Also, I still don’t think that the Seattle Cancer Care Alliance would provide IV curry spices.

  117. #122 Kelly
    Seattle, WA
    March 26, 2017

    Lucy, I DID take chemo. I took a year of it. Never once did I stop taking chemo for this. I can’t believe someone could be so rude.

  118. #123 prn
    March 26, 2017

    prn: read the article. She had eczema. Hardly a life threatening condition.
    Yes, Panacea, that’s what the article said. This was such a different looking situation and treatment, I have questions about the completeness or accuracy of the story.

    In my experience with the altmed world, at infusion sites, I only see older patients with really serious life threatening problems, or intense/chronic pain. Also it didn’t sound like options that I would have expected from naturopathic treatment, although I don’t know all things naturopathic.

  119. #124 prn
    Craig Thomas@97
    March 26, 2017

    prn quackled…”…the comment is non-observational and counter factual in the Klennerian range, say over 40 grams of C per meter2 per infusion, as to be delusionally ignorant. It is a standalone treatment for some things and an important component in complicated cases.”

    Only in your delusional mind is Vitamin C a treatment for anything …
    Craig, these IV C treatments are simply outside your range of observation, experience, indoctrination, and superstitious texts. Pretty much everybody here.

    This is somewhat like trying to describe elephants and whales to a somewhat impaired being that has only experienced roaches and mice as their largest earthly creatures.

  120. #125 prn
    March 26, 2017

    Lucy@111:
    ….Go take your chemo. It’s expensive for a reason. That means it fucking works!!

    I buy chemo pills for about $1 each, and they appear nicer than anything in the US. 3-4 pills are the usual daily dose unless you’re very obese.

    Expensive has more to do with patents, artificial monopolies and marketing.

  121. #126 Sue
    California
    March 26, 2017

    Well – naturopaths certainly don’t have the corner on killing people. That would be medical doctors:

    http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/study_suggests_medical_errors_now_third_leading_cause_of_death_in_the_us

  122. #128 Panacea
    March 26, 2017

    Hi, Kelly,

    So you’ve taken chemo the whole time; OK I believe you. I do believe you. I do not believe IV curcumin did a thing for you. You see, human beings have a tendency to associate immediate events with what they recently saw or did. It’s called post hoc ergo propter hoc, which means literally, “after this, because of this.” Human beings have an innate need to fill in gaps, to explain things. So often when something happens we can’t explain, we fill in that gap with something to explain it. That’s why scientists are fond of saying correlation does not imply causation.

    I believe that’s what you’re doing here. Someone sold you on this idea of IV curcumin because you were getting sicker and not better with chemo. So you added something, the curcumin but continued the chemo to “hedge your bets.” There’s no reason to believe it’s the curcumin and every reason to believe it’s the chemo therapy. There’s very good reason why people who give up on cancer treatment seem to do better for awhile before the disease rears its ugly head again. By then it’s usually too late, and the person dies.

    Orac has written extensively on this subject since he is a surgical oncologist specializing in breast cancer. You should peruse the archive and read some of the stories of people who gave up on SBM for quack cures like curcumin to seem to get better for awhile, before suffering tragic consequences.

    You kept up with the chemo. That’s encouraging. Don’t quit! Follow through, because if the improvement is a step in the right direction it can continue only if you continue chemo and radiation. No guarantees of course, there never are in life. But your best chance. I wish you well.

    @Chris: Kelly confirms she lives in Seattle. It sounds like she’s getting conventional medicine from her oncologist and the quack cure from someone else. I get what you’re saying, though.

    @prn: So basically you’re saying that since the account is so unusual it must have been reported poorly? Logical fail. Your experience with quackery (mostly promoting it) does not qualify you to determine that a reporter did a poor job. And clearly you don’t know very much about naturopathy or alt med if you think only the old and very sick use it.

    Sadly, I know many young people who have been sucked into all kinds of quackery. I see it in my professional practice all the time, which is what attracted me to this site. We have David and Mark Geier giving Lupron and chelation theory to autistic kids with no medical indication or evidence. Orac has discussed all kinds of cancer cases where the quack victims were young and otherwise healthy until they got cancer. Your comment on that is completely nonsense.

    Here’s the thing about Vitamin C: we know it’s a treatment for scurvy; it corrects the Vit C deficiency. We know that Vit C improves the absorption of iron from the GI tract. It helps repair tissue. All kinds of studies for other things find very weak evidence or none at all. People get exciting ideas from anecdotal evidence, but when a controlled study is done, the impact is no better than placebo.

    We can explain why Vit C does what it does when it works. You can’t explain why high dose Vit C does anything, much less explain why it doesn’t work.

  123. #129 Chris
    March 26, 2017

    Panacea: “I get what you’re saying, though.”

    There is a reason I have a deep distrust of those who graduated from Bastyr.

  124. #130 Little mama
    March 26, 2017

    To the comments above including Jane Doe:
    NO..this did not happen at Dr. Blooms office
    YES..it happened at a licensed ND who DOES do IV Vitamin C H202, and other IV stuff.
    NO…she didn’t have cancer and did this instead of Chemo. She had Eczema and was told by the professional that this treatment would help her.

  125. #131 Lucy
    March 26, 2017

    I don’t know….

    For example, “overall cancer rates are much lower in India than in western countries.” U.S. men get 23 times more prostate cancer than men in India. Americans get between 8 and 14 times the rate of melanoma, 10 to 11 times more colorectal cancer, 9 times more endometrial cancer, 7 to 17 times more lung cancer, 7 to 8 times more bladder cancer, 5 times more breast cancer, and 9 to 12 times more kidney cancer. This is not mere 5, 10, or 20 percent more, but 5, 10, or 20 times more. Hundreds of percent more breast cancer, thousands of percent more prostate cancer—differences even greater than some of those found in the China Study.

  126. #132 Lucy
    March 26, 2017

    I don’t know…

    For example, “overall cancer rates are much lower in India than in western countries.” U.S. men get 23 times more prostate cancer than men in India. Americans get between 8 and 14 times the rate of melanoma, 10 to 11 times more colorectal cancer, 9 times more endometrial cancer, 7 to 17 times more lung cancer, 7 to 8 times more bladder cancer, 5 times more breast cancer, and 9 to 12 times more kidney cancer. This is not mere 5, 10, or 20 percent more, but 5, 10, or 20 times more. Hundreds of percent more breast cancer, thousands of percent more prostate cancer—differences even greater than some of those found in the China Study.

  127. #133 shay simmons
    March 26, 2017

    Wouldn’t Swiss acupuncture be Western Medicine?

    So that’s how they make Gruyere.

  128. #134 B P
    san diego
    March 26, 2017

    Kelly,
    I applaud you for sharing such an intimate part of your life. Lucy obviously has some serious issues to even comment and say what she did. I hope she gets help! She might be an alien! Everyone that is putting your situation down are just sheep and believe what they are told. You have looked outside the box and have decided to try something that could possibly heal you not just put tape and mask the situation. There have been proven scientific and life living proof that high vitamin C and curcumin IV’s do heal and kill certain ailments. For the rest of this group to suggest that chemo is the only way just shows their stupidity. If chemo actually worked I wouldn’t of lost so many family and friends to cancer. Keep doing what you are doing and dont let the sheep try to persuade you otherwise, they will some day find the light and see what the truth is. Good luck and I know you win this battle!

  129. #135 Martha
    USA
    March 26, 2017

    How despondent Orac and like minded people must be now that David Rockenfelder, the son of (I’m sure one of Orac’s favorite people) John D. Rockenfelder has finally died. The Carnegie Foundation bought the Abraham Flexner report (Flexner was not a physician) and based upon that one report it was off to the races for the Rockenfelders. It was time to take over the medical profession and how doctors were to be ‘educated’ and to destroy anyone who got in their way. After all, John D. made no bones about it when he said, “Competition is a sin.”

  130. #136 doug
    March 27, 2017

    Travis the shit at 132? Or the real Michael Menkin, Encyclopeidated Loon?

  131. #137 doug
    March 27, 2017

    ^Encyclopediated
    ‘taint cromulent if it’s spelled rong

  132. #138 Narad
    March 27, 2017

    Could it be the curcumin?

    Could it really!!!

    P.S.. I’m just trying to clear my fυcking name.

    Yours,
    Travis J. Schwochert

    P.P.S. Please don’t start using my dad’s E-mail address to make really offensive comments hither and yon.

  133. #139 Julian Frost
    Gauteng North
    March 27, 2017

    Travis, you wouldn’t need to clear your name if you hadn’t behaved so execrably here in the first place.
    You have been potty-mouthed. You have sockpuppeted (which was why Orac banned you). You have dug up the emails of commentators here and used them to post under their names (including mine). You have tried to post under the names of people who haven’t commented here in years, including the late and still beloved lilady. Such actions could be viewed as threatening.
    If I were you, I’d go and seriously rethink my actions. If you really want to clear your name, start by clearing up your act.

  134. #140 Panacea
    March 27, 2017

    @ Michael Menkin

    There’s a big difference between testing a substance on cells in a petri dish, and cells in a living human being. That turmeric is being tested for its potential use as a cancer drug doesn’t justify its use now, before there is any evidence of efficacy and safety.

    Many promising substances in nature prove to have no value when tested. There is no reason to believe turmeric is any different, and since we know chemotherapy does work, there is every reason to believe it is the cause of Kelly’s improvement. The reason chemo regimens are as long and complicated as they are is because it takes time, and the dose has to be broken up in such a way to minimize toxicity, since chemo agents are rather unpleasant to put it mildly.

    As for “gaslighting” that word does not mean what you think it means. I’m not questioning or attempting to get Kelly to question her sanity. I’m questioning her logic for very valid reasons. That does not impunge on her character; people innocently make these kinds of logical errors all the time.

    You, on the other hand, make them on purpose.

  135. #141 prn
    March 27, 2017

    Panacea@128: …reported poorly
    Even NYT and WSJ have tarnished reputations these days, never mind lesser rags, broadcast sensationalism, and fake news. Also, there is a tendency for these stories to morph over time.

    Panacea: And clearly you don’t know very much about naturopathy or alt med if you think only the old and very sick use it.
    I said “infusion sites…” for vitamin C, not naturopathy, a qualication of the difference. IV anything altmed is the Rubicon for a lot of people, between perceived necessity, hesitation and cash cost. Even the online cases of IV vitamin C and cancer that I am aware of, up to their late 20s, the parents were involved (cash AND various supportive elements).

    Panacea: “…but when a controlled study is done, the impact is no better than placebo.”
    I’ve mentioned Levy’s book before, Curing the Incurable: Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins. There are controlled studies on IV vitamin C on diseases there.

    So perhaps you didnt read the book, didn’t understand it, don’t like the studies and results, or maybe just like to be augmentative.

    You know Panacea, it’s hard to keep a straight face when you make such dogmatic comments about mostly irrelevant tests where you sound so unfamiliar and innumerate as to not understand the importance of the difference between milligrams, grams and kilograms of C delivered to the bloodstream.

    Panacea: You can’t explain why high dose Vit C does anything,….
    Here at RI, I’ve previously mentioned compartments, transport, dosage, histamine (including relationship to HIF-1a and VEGF-A), ROS, and Fenton reactions around transition metal ions, like on pathogens, Levine (NIH) and the Riordan Clinic.

    …much less explain why it doesn’t work.
    mostly radically too low doses, and/or wrong combinations, perhaps applied on the wrong disease model.

  136. #142 prn
    typo in previous, reformat
    March 27, 2017

    Panacea@128: …reported poorly

    Even NYT and WSJ have tarnished reputations these days, nevermind lesser rags, broadcast sensationalism and fake news. Also, there is a tendency for these stories to morph over time.

    Panacea: And clearly you don’t know very much about naturopathy or alt med if you think only the old and very sick use it.

    I said “infusion sites…” for vitamin C, not naturopathy, a qualication of the difference. IV anything altmed is the Rubicon for a lot of people, between perceived necessity, hesitation and cash cost. Even the online cases of IV vitamin C and cancer that I am aware of, up to their late 20s, the parents were involved (cash AND various supportive elements).

    Panacea: “…but when a controlled study is done, the impact is no better than placebo.”

    I’ve mentioned Levy’s book before, Curing the Incurable: Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins. There are controlled studies on IV vitamin C on diseases there. So perhaps you didnt read the book, didn’t understand it, don’t like the studies and results, or maybe just like to be augmentative.

    You know Panacea, it’s hard to keep a straight face when you make such dogmatic comments about mostly irrelevant tests where you sound so unfamiliar and innumerate as to not understand the importance of the difference between milligrams, grams and kilograms of C delivered to the bloodstream.

    You can’t explain why high dose Vit C does anything,….

    I’ve previously mentioned compartments, transport, dosage, histamine (including relationship to HIF-1a and VEGF-A), ROS, and Fenton reactions around transition metal ions, like on pathogens, Levine (NIH) and the Riordan Clinic.

    …much less explain why it doesn’t work.
    mostly radically too low doses, and/or wrong combinations, perhaps applied on the wrong disease model.

  137. #143 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    March 28, 2017

    I’ve mentioned Levy’s book before, Curing the Incurable: Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins.

    Hmmmm, a crank talks up a book that isn’t published by Skyhorse. From a company called MedFox.
    https://www.medfoxpub.com

    Over half of the books they publish are by Levy, and the other three are by some other guy. Their address is 2505 Anthem Village Dr, Suite E-582 Henderson, NV, and there is a UPS Store is at 2505 Anthem Village Dr E, in Henderson. It must be a small shop. They don’t say they are a pay to play operation, but maybe we’ll see MJD’s next book published there.

    Levy himself comes highly recommended –
    http://www.whale.to/a/levy_h.html

  138. #144 Julian Frost
    Gauteng North
    March 28, 2017

    @Panacaea:

    There’s a big difference between testing a substance on cells in a petri dish, and cells in a living human being.

    Were you perhaps thinking of this?
    https://xkcd.com/1217/

  139. […] Worse news, Jesus is not the only one ready to do us in. All that is required is a dim bulb upstairs: […]

  140. #146 Dangerous Bacon
    March 28, 2017

    “So perhaps you didnt read the book, didn’t understand it, don’t like the studies and results, or maybe just like to be augmentative.”

    Is Panacea a plastic surgeon???

  141. #147 Panacea
    March 28, 2017

    @Julian #148: Laughed out loud on that one. Thanks for the link, I now have a new webcomic to follow!

    @DB #149: Not last I checked my bank account.

    @prn: The NYT and WSJ (the former leans left and the later is moderate right) are two of the finest newspapers in the United States. They don’t always get it right but they do excellent work. To say otherwise is a red flag to someone who gets his news from fake news sites and calls real news fake.

    Your “infusion sites” dodge doesn’t pass the laugh test.

    A book written by a quack and a crank, even if he does have MD after his name, is not peer reviewed scientific evidence. You linked to a popular press type of book, not peer reviewed evidence. C’mon, man, you know better by now what peer review means.

    Dr. Levy trained in the 1970’s, and doesn’t practice real medicine anymore. He was associated with a diploma mill, and has never published anything peer reviewed on Vit C. http://sciblogs.co.nz/infectious-thoughts/2012/03/07/vitamin-c-primal-panacea-yeah-right/

    Nice try, but fail.

  142. #148 prn
    March 28, 2017

    Johnny: Hmmmm, a crank

    Actually Johnny your view represents a crank belief system based no relevant data, typically ignoring what limited data there is, and interfering with efforts to get high quality data.

    Already modern medicine has confirmed or elaborated, and updated, parts of the vitamin C for cancer story. Vitamin C for metastatic cancer is a far, far tougher application than vitamin C for acute viruses.

    However, for 70+years “mainstream medicine” has managed to avoid or evade meaningful tests on IV vitamin C for acute viruses and toxins while disparaging, ignoring, attacking what data there is.

    The typical negavitamin statements extrapolate poorly designed tests over 10 fold, even 100 fold or more with respect to daily dosage or bloodlevels. Those are the marks of scientific quacks, cranks and worse.

  143. #149 JustaTech
    March 28, 2017

    So, there’s one thing in the OP I’d like to go back to: the article says that the ND was infusing turmeric.
    If that’s actually what happened, I would say that’s pretty different from Kelly’s curcumin and prn’s vitamin C because both of those substances are *purified*. Turmeric is as far from curcumin as orange juice is from IV vit C.

    Which, frankly, makes this ND even more culpable for this poor woman’s death. Clearly NDs can purchase curcumin for infusion, so why the heck did this ND use turmeric? Where did the ND even get the turmeric? The grocery store? Amazon?

  144. #150 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    March 28, 2017

    …typically ignoring what limited data there is, and interfering with efforts to get high quality data.

    Bull$hit. It’s the published data that is available I do accept, and I encourage you to shop your anecdotes around to every researcher you can find to get the studies you claim are needed.

    You claim there are hundreds of cases of VitC curing everything under the sun. Fine. Put them all together and publish. I dare ya.

  145. #151 Panacea
    March 28, 2017

    I didn’t insult her in other words. Sorry if that was too complicated for you.

  146. #152 doug
    March 28, 2017

    terryg travisj

  147. #153 herr doktor bimler
    March 28, 2017

    A mate of mine tried high-dose IV vit-C a few years ago when his colon cancer came back, on the theory that it is a crime to turn down the opportunity for an experiment. So the experiment was to use intermittent vit-C, regularly measuring the tumour markers, so as to amplify any effect on the tumour. No luck, oh well, worth a try.

    Now the absence of a response in Paul’s case is just an anecdote, N=1, but my point is that oncologists here are happy to include vit-C as part of the treatment if that’s what the patient wants. And if some oncologist saw a series of successful case studies, they would not be holding back about it.

  148. #154 prn
    March 29, 2017

    JT@149: … Clearly NDs can purchase curcumin for infusion, so why the heck did this ND use turmeric? Where did the ND even get the turmeric?…
    I totally agree. It’s one of the things that makes this story so weird.

  149. #155 prn
    March 29, 2017

    Johnny@150
    Prn: …[mainstream] typically ignoring what limited data there is, and interfering with efforts to get high quality data.

    Johnny: Bull$hit. It’s the published data that is available I do accept, and I encourage you to shop your anecdotes around to every researcher you can find to get the studies you claim are needed.
    You obviously either don’t know the data or don’t understand it. Again, see Levy’s Curing the Incurable, Vitamin C….
    In fact Levy discuss medicine’s attitude problems in his introduction.

    Johnny: You claim there are hundreds of cases of VitC curing everything under the sun. Fine. Put them all together and publish. I dare ya.

    This was done 15 years ago. This is precisely what Tom Levy did in Curing the Incurable, Vitamin C. So obviously you haven’t read it, unless you just like to harrass me.

  150. #156 MI Dawn
    March 29, 2017

    @prn: Tom Levy’s book is NOT a peer-reviewed study. It’s anecdotes. How about actual studies, not BS that’s self-published?

  151. #157 prn
    March 29, 2017

    herr doktor bimler@153
    A mate of mine tried high-dose IV vit-C a few years ago when his colon cancer came back, on the theory that it is a crime to turn down the opportunity for an experiment. So the experiment was to use intermittent vit-C, regularly measuring the tumour markers, so as to amplify any effect on the tumour.

    Sorry your friend didn’t have better research and medical support, there were several inadequate choices there.

    1. Most of the NIH research shows pre-clinical solo vitamin C most effective against Kras mutant cells that would likely be better monitored in vivo with CA199 or C242.
    2. CEA for CRC is often associated with Kras wild cells that will often show dramatic reduction with Erbitux etc.
    3. IRL, I found it easier to eradicate the mutants with C+chemo+others than the wild population (biopsy, special lab studies, serum markers). With larger masses, the CEA wild population had to be dug with steel at the aorta. I’ve had better luck with smaller sized CEA sources with C+chemo and multiple chemistries.
    4. Although I think solo IV vitamin C was not an irrational choice for the 1970s, it’s a shame that 5FU, C and some embarrassingly simple others weren’t married together back then. Solo vitamin C for advanced CRC looks obsolete to me but very useful in combination.

  152. #158 prn
    March 29, 2017

    MI Dawn @156
    @prn: Tom Levy’s book is NOT a peer-reviewed study.

    Of course Levy’s book is not a peer-reviewed study. It is Levy’s compilation of previously published IV vitamin C studies from the published world literature.

    It’s anecdotes. How about actual studies, not BS that’s self-published?

    The studies range from case studies and series to randomized controlled tests. Levy is the reviewer and editor here.

    Yes, Levy is self-published – that’s not a scientific argument. Martin Luther didn’t use a Catholic publisher, either. Levy is calling out a purblind medical hierarchy that is almost 70 years derelict on relevant testing of IV vitamin C. He presents the published evidence that exists, as is, without a corrupt and vacuous formalism that has long diverged from the real world on this particular subject.

  153. #159 Panacea
    March 29, 2017

    Vit C obsolete for CRC but we should combine it with 5FU now?

    For Vit C to be obsolete it first had to be relevant. It’s not and never was. Anecdotes are not PEER reviewed evidence. You’re claiming Levy’s book is a compilation; if so he would be able to find a respectable publisher. That he had to self publish tells me all I need to know. BUt list a few peer review studies in this compilation; we’ll look them up on Pub Med for another good laugh.

  154. #160 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    March 29, 2017

    You obviously either don’t know the data or don’t understand it. Again, see Levy’s Curing the Incurable, Vitamin C….
    In fact Levy discuss medicine’s attitude problems in his introduction.

    You screwed the link, but no problem – the Great Google found it. I haven’t looked real close yet, but at first glance, it looks long on assertions and short on citations.

    So obviously you haven’t read it, unless you just like to harrass me.

    Can it be both? No, I haven’t read it, and if you think I’m going to put $20 in Levy’s pocket to do it, you’re dumber than I think you are. I’ll keep an eye out at the used book store,

    IRL, I found it easier to eradicate the mutants with C+chemo+others than the wild population (biopsy, special lab studies, serum markers). With larger masses, the CEA wild population had to be dug with steel at the aorta. I’ve had better luck with smaller sized CEA sources with C+chemo and multiple chemistries.

    Please define what you mean by “I found it easier to eradicate the mutants…” and “I’ve had better luck…”.

    To me, it sounds like you are providing medical treatment to people. My first impulse is to ask under what circumstances you are doing this, and what qualifications you have.

    Language like this make me think you are, in fact, curing people on a day-to-day basis. But somehow, it’s impossible for you to do a real study, and publish real results? I’m confused.

    The studies range from case studies and series to randomized controlled tests.

    Ah, so there are randomized controlled tests that, no doubt, show what you claim. As you also claim to know the literature, why not post the 3 most convincing studies you know of? It’s all anybody here, including me, really wants from you.

  155. #161 herr doktor bimler
    March 29, 2017

    Sorry your friend didn’t have better research and medical support, there were several inadequate choices there.

    You really are a feckin shameless dipsh1t, prn. Did I say that my friend wasn’t receiving state-of-the-art chemo at the same time as his experiment with IV vit-C? What details of his case did I give that left you feeling qualfied to assert that “there were several inadequate choices”? There is a fire somewhere waiting for you to die in it, you arrogant twunt. Take your amateur oncology advice with you, and nothing of value will be lost.

  156. #162 Robert Sheaffer
    San Diego, CA
    March 29, 2017

    I found this photo on a Yelp review of the “Bloom Natural Health” center in Encinitas. Very disturbing, they have an extremely cavalier attitude about injecting things into people.

    “Make the perfect blend of nutrient filled shots and iv drips”

    http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/bloom-natural-health-encinitas?select=2cpnaiuHOJEoflbR0v3aog&reviewid=vphye9ehTDISQgBv0mrz5Q

    https://www.yelp.com/biz/bloom-natural-health-encinitas?hrid=tXELsMgkQ32vHxyDHz8WAQ

  157. #163 Jane Doe
    Encinitas
    March 30, 2017

    Cavalier yes. Bloom Natural Health has a great track record.

    – Started and owned by a 2x felon (Chris Cozzie) – per their own press release. He died of cancer last year. Guess they couldn’t save him.

    – In my opinion, it was financed by the @$500k he defraud a bunch of people out of. The FBI caught him, convicted him, but the money disappeared and Dr. Amanda Ward was now the owner of Bloom. Nice eh?

    – Charged with many violations by the state medical board in 2013, including allowing her medical assistants to do IVs, which is illegal, and a whole bunch of stuff.

    All this is available online for anyone to find. IMO, she’s as bad as her felon ex-boyfriend and if this is her, hopefully they take her medical license away.

  158. #164 Narad
    March 30, 2017

    Language like this make me think you are, in fact, curing people on a day-to-day basis. But somehow, it’s impossible for you to do a real study, and publish real results?

    <burzynski>Works for me.</burzynski>

  159. #165 prn
    March 31, 2017

    herr doktor bimler@161
    hdb: You really are a feckin shameless dipsh1t.
    I’m not the one who keeps throwing his mate’s sad fate out as bait, then going all sensitive.

    hdb: Did I say that my friend wasn’t receiving state-of-the-art chemo at the same time as his experiment with IV vit-C? What details of his case did I give…

    His case was widely discussed on the internet 2011-2012 and was presented as a series, chemo then alternative. This included his chemo, funding Avastin tx, as then using some IV vitamin C. I think I first noticed him ca 2H 2011, because of the vitamin C angle, of course.
    …began receiving high-dose intravenous infusions of vitamin C in June [2011], along with several alternative herbal remedies…during a six-month break from chemotherapy
    https://www.pressreader.com/new-zealand/the-press/20100420/282939561496257
    https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=C89OAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=%22paul+callaghan%22++avastin&source=bl&ots=25P7fRMj6B&sig=m8F-8EGyWJmJcJVE-J4gGWiyXWQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwib9cmHg4HTAhXLVrwKHU_pCuAQ6AEIGzAB#v=onepage&q=%22paul%20callaghan%22%20%20avastin&f=false

    hdb: …that left you feeling qualfied to assert that “there were several inadequate choices”?

    For a given locale, I rely on standard medicine providing pretty standard cancer treatment options, especially in countries with an extensive national medical service. I know a little about their problems and deficiencies from papers, friends, acquaintances and some structural issues that prevent optimal results. eg Pharmac not funding Erbitux and Avastin then, common problems with side effects, metastatic failures, and real time monitoring inefficiencies.

    Likewise, there are some common themes in CAM, often with localized practices or affinity groups.

    Perhaps I should have said “he was surely presented with some inadequate (standard and alternative) choices whose multiple limitations are hard to overcome in realtime”

    1. I had to assess and implement IV vitamin C for mCRC over a year earlier than Sir Paul did. I was struck by several situations. Most of all, that standalone vitamin C for colorectal cancer inhibition, was not advocated by the principal research based medical advocates of vitamin C, starting with Riordan Clinic, as an optimal treatment route. However, standalone IV C can still have important, even dramatic effects on debility, longevity, robustness and quality of life for terminal patients through to the end of their lives.

    2. There were striking, successful examples with IV vitamin C +5FU + supplements succeeding after 5FU based failures. Vitamin C and 5FU could be complementary, even for retreatment. The standalone success for IV C with mCRC was much less. One case of a self promoted IV vitamin C, I surmised was more likely stage 0, stage 1 or dx’d in error than a magic hit on a chemo naive, advanced CRC case.

    3. Even in 2010, there were legitimate medical papers that suggested that various natural substances could help re-sensitize cancer cells to chemo. This trend continues.

    4. Real time biochemical monitoring is abysmal. Two common situations are – “too bad, we may have been able to help you…6 months ago” and a lack of control at the point of inhibition in a tight envelope between cancer inhibition and patient toxicity/tolerance/survival.
    Although New Zealand seems to have a fairly enthusiastic start with IV vitamin C following the Alan Smith story ca 2009, its vitamin C cancer programs in 2011 were still on foundational steps. These are steps w-,c-,shoulda have been done in the 1950s, 60s, 70s and 80s in North America that then should have merged with 5FU. Today, it could be that mainstream NZ is ahead of maimstream USA on IV vitamin C.

    Take your amateur oncology advice with you, and nothing of value will be lost.

    Fortunately for me, some heads at a regional center know better and probably would laugh at you. I’ve piqued the surgeons’ interest for years, now even some oncologists seem to want to talk.

  160. #166 Panacea
    April 1, 2017

    Take a hike Travis.

  161. #167 Elliott
    Boston
    April 1, 2017

    You can’t say that this category of drug is something that has been ignored by scientists. It should be mentioned that curcumin, the active ingredient in turmuric, is one of the great wasters of research $$. It’s something that comes up repeatedly as active in early discovery stages, yet has always failed in the clinic (over 100 failed clinical trials for drugs of this type). There’s a phrase for these things: “pan-assay interference compounds” PAINS for short.

    For a nice discussion on why this is so, search for curcumin on Derek Lowe’s “In the Pipeline” blog.

  162. […] my discussion of the case two weeks ago, I noted how the woman apparently went into cardiopulmonary arrest due to a […]

  163. […] Whatever the case, Erick very rapidly went into cardiac arrest as the infusion began. When first I discussed the Erick case, the identity of the naturopath was unknown because, for whatever reason, the press was not […]

  164. #170 Chris Zeno
    Southern California
    April 14, 2017

    Your position on this and disrespect on this issue is evident by the name-calling and falsehoods prevalent in your blog post. Sadly anyone can start a blog nowadays but very few people are actual journalists.

    The patient in question was not given turmeric, another falsehood that you reported. She was given a Curcumin IV Therapy treatment which is used by naturopathic, allopathic MD doctors and other health care professionals. It was prescribed by her licensed naturopathic MEDICAL doctor who had the same 4 years of medical schools as your synthetic pill-pushing allopaths.

    Instead of asking your fellow trolls for their opinion or asked the insecure jealous MDs scared for their market share why don’t try pretending to know how to write an article and go visit the AANP website and find out more information (http://www.naturopathic.org/files/AANPCurcuminPressRelease_FINAL_4_11_17(3).pdf) or maybe try speaking to a patient.

    And if one tragic death from a patient of naturopathic medicine suddenly makes it okay to label this entire field as “holistic practitioners” so rude. Then what should we label allopathic MD doctors who last year killed more than 250,000 patients in their hospitals alone? Uhhh how about “Murdering, see you for 4 minutes, indifferent, addictive drug pushing psychopaths”?

    Okay. Now we all have rude names for each other. And you’re still a hack.

  165. #171 Linda
    ventura ca
    April 15, 2017

    Every time i hear the word “quack” I know it is written by someone on the dole from big pharma or AMA. Nutrient IVs saved my life, after it was almost destroyed by the popular cipro antibiotic (a failed chemo drug masquerading as an antibiotic that destroys dna, mitochondria, collagen, etc and can wreak havoc on all organs and systems. I am left with permanent nerve and vision damage. H2O2 IV allowed me to breathe and for the first time in decades I use NO asthma drugs. I am sick to death of uninformed sheep who blindly follow the deadly ama and big pharma and put down naturopaths–WHO GO TO MEDICAL SCHOOL –and use actual CURES not chemicals that make you sicker. Getting a curcumin IV Monday.

  166. #172 Panacea
    April 16, 2017

    Put a sock in your puppet Travis.

  167. #173 Narad
    April 16, 2017

    Sadly anyone can start a blog nowadays but very few people are actual journalists.

    “Nowadays”? I can only conclude that people who trot out this line are unclear on the basic concept.

  168. #174 herr doktor bimler
    April 16, 2017

    “Chris Zeno”‘s parody-comment works better if imagined in a Grandpa Simpson voice.

  169. #175 herr doktor bimler
    April 16, 2017

    Dear Mr. President, there are too many blogs nowadays. Please eliminate three.

  170. […] examples that put the lie to this last talking point. Most recently, in the state of California, a licensed naturopath killed a patient with what was reported in the press to be intravenous turmeric but was probably intravenous […]

  171. #177 Angel K
    July 4, 2017

    I thought turmeric was supposed to be good for the human body? I mean, studies were conducted, no? http://organicdailypost.com/turmeric-miracle-cure/

  172. #178 Lou
    July 4, 2017

    This is infuriating. Turmeric IS good for you. Curcumin IVs ARE safe (I have had several.) I understand that this was not from a reputable source (the curcumin.) It is again, so frustrating that over 100,000 die each year from FDA approved pharmaceuticals and we hear very little. One person dies from a nutrient IV and alarms go off all over!

  173. #179 Se Habla Espol
    July 4, 2017

    Lou sez

    I understand that this was not from a reputable source (the curcumin.)

    That’s correct, it was from a naturopathetic doctor, not a reputable source.

    over 100,000 die each year from FDA approved pharmaceuticals and we hear very little.

    We hear a lot about this from CAM peddlers, but they never seem to be able to provide a credible source that actually supports their claim.

    • #180 Lou
      July 4, 2017

      Is this credible enough for you? http://health.usnews.com/health-news/patient-advice/articles/2016-09-27/the-danger-in-taking-prescribed-medications

      the FDA/AMA/big pharma cabal is the modern day mafia. Personally, my life will never be the same due to a COMMON FDA approved antibiotic, Cipro. Dr Charles Bennett a drug researcher at the U of So Carolina estimates from the fluoroquinolone family (including Cipro, Levaquin etc) 300,000 have DIED and millions more injured. And that is just ONE class of drugs. The FDA has known how toxic these failed-chemo-drugs-masquerading-as-antibiotics are for DECADES and done little to curtail their use. Only last july, after extreme public pressure, they warned against using them for simple infections, but doctors are oblivious and hand them out like candy. THese destroy DNA, mitochondria, collagen—all connective tissue. They can damage all organs and systems and the side effects are TERRIFYING. Please, don’t talk to me about fda approved drugs…

  174. #181 Narad
    July 4, 2017

    One person dies from a nutrient IV and alarms go off all over!

    They must be really quiet “alarms” if they take over two months to generate a conniption. You’re going to need to step up the quality of the scamvertising.

  175. #182 Lou
    July 4, 2017

    And by the way, naturopaths ARE doctors and they DO go to medical school. You don’t know what you are talking about.

  176. #183 Chris
    July 4, 2017

    Bastyr is not a medical school. They teach idiocy like homeopathy.

  177. #184 MadisonMD
    July 4, 2017

    naturopaths ARE doctors and they DO go to medical school

    Not really. Doctors go to medical school and take medical licensing exams. Naturopaths go to naturopath school and take NPLEX.

  178. #185 Narad
    July 5, 2017

    Is this credible enough for you?

    Um, US News & World Report? It’s not even interesting enough for me.

  179. #186 Narad
    July 5, 2017

    THese destroy DNA, mitochondria, collagen—all connective tissue.

    The deuce you say.

  180. #187 Narad
    July 5, 2017

    Oh, right. I don’t think that your trip is going to fly too far in this parts, “L,” but bon voyage.

  181. #188 herr doktor bimler
    July 5, 2017

    these failed-chemo-drugs-masquerading-as-antibiotics

    This idea that the fluoroquinolone family of drugs are “failed chemo drugs” seems to be an article of faith in medical-conspiracy circles. The webpages that purvey this interesting theory do not offer any cases of fluoroquinolone drugs being ever used or tried for chemotherapy… the underlying logic seems to be “fluoroquinolone drugs are EVIL, chemo drugs are EVIL, therefore fluoroquinolone = chemo”.

    Foxiehope.com provides a definition but can’t be arsed sticking to it:
    “I’m using the term “chemo drug” to mean a drug that damages human cells and is used for the purposes of fighting cancer”
    — Which drugs in the family have been used to fight cancer?
    IT MIGHT HAPPEN ONE DAY!!!

  182. #189 Se Habla Espol
    July 5, 2017

    #180, Lou July 4, 2017:

    Is this credible enough for you? http://health.usnews.com/health-news/patient-advice/articles/2016-09-27/the-danger-in-taking-prescribed-medications

    No, it’s not credible. I found exactly zero citations to actual data in that pop-market publication. Repeating unevidenced claims is not evidence supporting those claims.

    the FDA/AMA/big pharma cabal is the modern day mafia.

    Evidence is required that there is such a cabal, and that it’s in any sense equivalent to a mafia.

    Personally, my life will never be the same due to a COMMON FDA approved antibiotic, Cipro.

    My life will never be the same, either, following the night when Levaquin and other meds rescued me from septic shock that had almost, but not quite, reached cardiac arrest. It was a big change to my life, transforming me from near-terminal to being around ten years later.
    Dr Charles Bennett a drug researcher at the U of So Carolina estimates from the fluoroquinolone family (including Cipro, Levaquin etc) 300,000 have DIED and millions more injured.
    Another claim where a citation is absolutely required. We won’t get into the “respect” we Tar Heels have for those folks down south, ’cause that would be an ad hom argument. But then, gain, calling him out as an authority is itself an ad hom argument of the opposite polarity, so…
    Fluoroquinolones are on my list of “medication allergies” on my chart at all the medical places I go: I’m one of those who shouldn’t take them, because of their side effects on me, so I don’t.
    And that is just ONE class of drugs. The FDA has known how toxic these failed-chemo-drugs-masquerading-as-antibiotics
    Citation needed that
    (a) fluoroquinolones are “failed chemo drugs”; and
    (b) fluoroquinolones ‘masquerade’ as antibiotics vs actually having significant anti-bacterial activity.

    are for DECADES

    Citation needed that
    (a) fluoroquimolones are inherently toxic, and
    (b) that FDA has known this “for DECADES”.

    and done little to curtail their use.

    Citation needed.

    Only last july, after extreme public pressure, they warned against using them for simple infections,

    Citation needed that
    (a) FDA only acted in July, 2016, to reduce use of fluoroquinolones for simple infections;
    (b) FDA action resulted from “extreme public pressure” rather than from data.

    but doctors are oblivious and hand them out like candy.

    My urologist did attempt to give me a single Levaquin capsule, since it’s the standard of care to prevent UTI following a transurethral procedure—being excreted by the kidneys with a fairly short half-life. The clinic had just changed EMR systems, and the new one hadn’t gotten all the data from the old one, yet.

    THese destroy DNA,

    Citation required that fluorquinolones “destroy DNA” in human cells: they are known to mess with the enzymes that process DNA in bacterial cells.

    mitochondria,

    Citation required that fluoroquinolones “destroy mitochondria” in human cells.

    collagen—all connective tissue.

    Collagen is a connective tissue component: citation required that DNA and Mitochondria are “connective tissue”.
    They can damage all organs and systems and the side effects are TERRIFYING.
    Citation required that actual side effects of fluoroquinolones are sufficiently significant to be “TERRIFYING”.

    Please, don’t talk to me about fda approved drugs…

    Why are you so skeered of meds that the FDA seems to have handled properly?

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