I’ve discussed several times over the last several years my impression that the media have become in general less tolerant of antivaccine views. At least, the media seem less willing to indulge in “tell both sides” false equivalence. Back when I started blogging, I routinely used to bemoan how news stories about vaccines or autism would almost inevitably include obligatory quotes from antivaxer like J.B. Handley, Jenny McCarthy, and sometimes even Andrew Wakefield. More recently, over the last five years or so, such tropes seem a lot less common. I don’t have any solid evidence to back up my impression, but I’m not alone in it. I’d like to think it was because of evidence, but generally I’ve attributed much of this change to the the downfall of one of the most famous antivaxer of all (at least before the rise of Donald Trump, and even then most people didn’t know that he has antivaccine views), Andrew Wakefield. When Wakefield lost his medical license and the was revealed to be a fraud, it provided a handy shorthand way to dismiss antivaccine views. Again, that wasn’t my preferred way to have won people over, but stories tend to be more effective than evidence.

It’s against that backdrop that I came across a story about a study examining how the mothers of unvaccinated children are viewed by other people. From the story in the Vancouver Sun:

Mothers of unvaccinated children are judged harshly by other people and their children are more likely to be shunned by other families, according to a study from the University of B.C.

And it really matters why the child is unvaccinated.

Those moms who outright refuse to vaccinate their kids are viewed most negatively, said co-author Nicholas Fitz, now a research associate at Duke University in Durham, N.C.

“On measures of social distance — like would you let your child befriend an unvaccinated child or work on a school project together — across the board unvaccinated children suffered from stigma,” he said. “People felt the most anger and the least sympathy for the refusal group and viewed the mothers as a danger to the community.”

But, because of the perceived health hazard, the child is most likely to be shunned.

“They don’t want the family to move into the neighbourhood … and they don’t want their children to play with (unvaccinated) children,” he said.

The authors Carpiano et al discuss how parents in the US are frequently judgmental of each other in the introduction to their study and then point out that vaccination status has become another area where judgmental attitudes can come into play:

In addition to these cultural expectations, media coverage of undervaccination has heavily focused on “anti-vaxxer” parents (mostly mothers), who refuse vaccinations for their children. This small, but vocal proportion of parents of the total undervaccinated population—more likely to be white and higher SES and thus with greater capacity to undertake healthy practices—are (a) known for rejecting certain evidence-based medical recommendations, (b) engaging in emotionally-, time-, and (often) financially-absorbing “intensive mothering” practices centered extensively on managing a child’s development; as well as (c) often identifying with essentialist notions of mothers as the best caregivers for their children (Reich, 2016 ; Hays, 1998). Popular media has even characterized anti-vaxxers as dangerous (e.g., Sriram, 2015). This attention paid to anti-vaxxers has contributed to misconceptions and even stereotypes about other vaccine-hesitant parents who refuse or delay vaccinations for their children (e.g., Haelle, 2015).

Of course, antivaxers are dangerous, but I always try to distinguish between vaccine-hesitant parents who have fallen under the sway of antivaccine views and the hard core antivaxers themselves, who spread the message. The former can be reached; the latter are virtually unreachable with rare exceptions.

In the study by Carpiano et al itself, the authors consider three issues:

  • Is undervaccination stigmatizing for the parent and the child?
  • Do stigmatizing attitudes depend on the reason for undervaccination?
  • What are the policy consequences of undervaccination attitudes?

Guided by these issues, the authors sought to investigate three questions:

  1. To what extent does the causal reason for a child’s undervaccination status predict people’s: a. Evaluations of child undervaccination (in terms of attribution theory-based emotional reactions and/or mother judgment-based differentness, credibility, and dangerousness) and b.Stigmatizing behavioral orientations (i.e. social distance and discrimination) towards undervaccinated children and their parents?
  2. Do people’s evaluations of child undervaccination explain differences in stigmatizing orientations observed across different undervaccination reasons?
  3. Do these undervaccination evaluations and stigmatizing orientations predict support for specific child vaccination policies?

Carpiano et al examined these questions by designing a survey-embedded vignette experiment that was administered in 2015 using Amazon’s Mechanical Turk (MTurk), an online crowdsourcing Internet marketplace that allows individuals and businesses (referred to as Requesters) to coordinate the use of human intelligence. It’s a tool that’s been increasingly used to recruit subjects for social science experiments like this one. Carpiano et al designed a survey-embedded vignette experiment with checks for whether or not the participants paid attention to the instructions and had understood the survey items. Overall, the sample surveyed included 1,469 participants representing at least 46 US states and Washington, DC. The four vignettes were about a mother who either has:

  1. Concerns about vaccinations and has decided to refuse vaccinations for her child (“refusal”).
  2. Concerns about vaccinations and has decided to delay some of her child’s vaccinations (“delay”)
  3. No concerns about vaccinations but whose job and family demands have made it difficult to schedule medical appointment so her child has only received some vaccinations (“time constraint”)
  4. No concerns about vaccinations and has decided that her child always receives recommended vaccinations (“up-to-date;” the control condition).

The mother in each vignette was randomized to be:

  • either white (and named “Molly”) or Hispanic (and named “Maria”)
  • either high or low socioeconomic status (in terms of education and job).

The authors note:

We selected Hispanic (versus White) because, in addition to Hispanic being a minority demographic group in the US, at the time we developed the study (i.e. following the Disneyland measles outbreak), politicians and pundits had publicly raised concern about illegal immigrants (often portrayed as being Hispanic) being unvaccinated and thus posing a risk for spreading disease (e.g., see Kessler, 2015). Hence, randomizing the mother’s demographics enabled us to determine if they influenced respondents’ reactions to the undervaccination condition at hand. As further context, US White and Hispanic children ages 19–35 months had similar 2014 national coverage rates for most vaccines and dosages (Hill et al., 2015).

The authors then asked questions about how the parents in the vignettes were viewed, stigmatizing behavioral orientations, and policy support. Results of evaluation measures for the vignette parents are shown in this figure:

Basically, undervaccination reflected negatively on the mohter. Anger and blame at the mother were highest for mothers refusing vaccines, less so for mothers who were time-constrained. These time-constrained parents also evoked much more sympathy than the other groups, which makes intuitive sense.

Here are the results on stigmatization:

What these results suggest is that both unvaccinated children and their parents are socially stigmatized, but that the child is stigmatized more than the parents, as the differences in the scores between fully vaccinated children and the undervaccinated were much greater than the differences in stigmatization between the parents. The authors themselves note in the discussion:

Third, participants reported even stronger social distancing attitudes towards the undervaccinated child than the mother. This suggests that children bear the bigger burden in undervaccination—in addition to not being protected from one or more vaccine-preventable diseases, they may be the recipients of courtesy stigma via the stigma of their parent’s decision/inaction (Phelan et al., 1998). We further discuss this idea below in relation to advancing stigma research.

It also turns out that those who read different vignettes also ended up with different attitudes towards what should be done to encourage vaccination. Those who read the refusal vignettes tended to be more supportive of punitive measures, such as banning unvaccinated children from school, but the differences were not large. For instance, those who read the vaccine refusal vignetted were only 24% more likely to support banning undervaccinated children from school. In addition, those who read the delay condition were only 15% more likely to support more education and services and 16% more likely to support reporting school vaccinated rates, while those reading the time constraint condition were 30% less likely to support a fine or a tax on parents of undervaccinated children.

So basically, the results of this study show that negative portrayals of antivaxers appears to be having an effect. However the message is being received, via the media, the Internet, or other sources, the parents of undervaccinated children are viewed negatively, and the reason matters. Outright refusers are viewed the most negatively, and time-constrained parents the least. The latter group even provokes a fair measure of sympathy. This does not bother me. What does bother me is that the children are stigmatized more than the parents. It bothers me because it is not the children’s fault that they were born to parents who won’t protect them from infectious disease, whatever the reason for their refusal or delay of vaccines.

The authors, to their credit, tackle the issue head on. They note that social stigmatization can work in changing behavior, noting the most obvious example, smoking. They then point the similarities and differences between smoking and vaccine policies:

Our investigation also informs stigma research more generally. First, it highlights the interplay of evaluations and consequences for the parent and child. Stigma research has considered how family members of stigmatized persons can also be stigmatized as recipients of courtesy stigma (Phelan et al., 1998). Child undervaccination extends the courtesy stigma concept, as the focus of the stigma is both the parent and the child—for mutual and distinct reasons. A child’s (under)vaccination status is a consequence of the parent’s actions, regardless of whether those actions are by choice or constraint. This status is beyond a child’s control, yet the child bears the burden of any negative consequences from parental (in)action. Thus, the child risks being doubly stigmatized as both the identified child of a vaccine-hesitant parent and a perceived health risk.

Second, our focus on stigma of undervaccinated children and their parents provides important angles to scholarship on the ethics of using stigma (or more broadly, denormalization) as a policy tool for modifying behaviors (see debates between Bayer, 2008a ; Bayer, 2008b and Burris, 2008; and Bell et al., 2010 ; Bayer, 2010). Given that vaccinations are necessary for ensuring the health of a community (including people who cannot be vaccinated), they juxtapose individual and public rights (as well as the role of government). This situation is similar to anti-smoking policies and second-hand smoke, but is more complex in that it entails the parent (as the decision maker) and child (as a beneficiary and health risk). This additional dimension is essential in ongoing debates about stigma and policies that aim to address adult and child health conditions and behaviors (e.g., eating unhealthy foods, obesity).

Of course, hard core antivaccine parents feed on any perception of stigmatization. How often have you read posts by such parents ranting about how they feel judged when interacting with health care providers, the press, and others? They revel in painting themselves as the persecuted minority, sometimes going to ridiculous extremes, such as donning a yellow badge with a syringe on it patterned after the Yellow Star of David that the Nazis required Jews to wear, thus likening their “plight” to that of the Jews during the Holocaust. Indeed, antivaxers are quite enamored of Holocaust analogies, either with vaccines causing a Holocaust or laws requiring children to be vaccinated before they can attend school being likened to Nazi-ism. Even mildly vaccine-hesitant parents can be turned off by excessive judgment.

Basically, stigmatization is highly problematic because it is the children who suffer far more than the parents, even as they are unnecessarily left vulnerable to infectious diseases. Also, we basically know that stigmatization only makes the beliefs of committed antivaxers stronger and increases their will to resist. However, this group of antivaxers is, as I pointed out at the beginning, different from the mere vaccine-averse. Their numbers are smaller, even though they are much louder and more responsible for spreading antivaccine beliefs. The question is whether stigmatization has an effect on vaccine-hesitant parents and whether it makes them more likely to vaccinate or less likely—and at what cost, given that it is the children who suffer far more than the parents. While it’s encouraging that parents of undervaccinated children are not viewed favorably because it indicates that pro-vaccination views predominate and that the reason for not vaccinating matters, we have to ask: How can we as a society maximize the social pressure to vaccinated without harming the very children that suffer from not being vaccinated? The answers to those question await further research.

Comments

  1. #1 Politicalguineapig
    June 12, 2017

    IE: One or both sets of kids has a nanny and the parents never meet each other or the kids.

  2. #2 Lawrence
    June 13, 2017

    PGP – we know you’re an ass. A barely tolerated one, but an ass regardless.

    Try not attacking children for the sins of the parents.

  3. #3 Politicalguineapig
    June 13, 2017

    Again, if the kids are going to be under the supervision of a parent who has questionable beliefs/is prone to violence what’s wrong with saying ‘your friend can come here, but you can’t go there?” No one’s punishing anyone in that context.

  4. #4 Politicalguineapig
    June 13, 2017

    FFS, Lawrence, do you know how parenting WORKS?

  5. #5 Lawrence
    June 13, 2017

    A lot more than you, it seems. Personally, I don’t bring someone’s kid into the conversation, even if it is Trump.

  6. #6 christine kincaid
    June 13, 2017

    Jonas,
    I am familiar with both the head circumference research & the age of father research.
    They are both applicable in my son’s presentation. His father is 12 years older than I & was 48 when he was born. The head circumference research is interesting because they found that children with Autism are actually born with heads that are smaller than average circumference & by age 2, measure as macro-cephalic.
    This would mirror my son’s statistics also; he DID have a smaller than average head circumference at birth but after age 2 his skull grew so rapidly you could see his scalp through his hair.

    Given that this is a noted scientific finding, I find the recent research regarding the prenatal “Autistic Brain” to be of high interest. I’m not sure if this was the study you mentioned but I will reference:
    :http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1307491?query=featured_home#t=articleResults

    … In which fresh-frozen postmortem cortical tissue blocks from children, 2 to 15 years of age, with autism (case samples) or without autism (controls) were studied.

    This study discusses a finding of abnormal neuron growth in the brains of children with Autism that subsides by young adulthood & notes that macrocephaly does not continue past young adulthood. They state:
    ” Our data are consistent with an early prenatal origin of autism or at least prenatal processes that may confer a predisposition to autism.”

    If children with Autism are born micro-cephalic & start a pattern of neuron overgrowth around age 2 & become macro-cephalic; I feel this is indicative of an environmental trigger. But I’m not a research scientist. And yes, I admit I could do better with staying on top of the latest research.

    I’m a mom. And not a “new” mom either nor a “beginner” mom. My son with Autism was # 11; I’m extremely well versed in developmental milestones & have spent decades being “right” about each individual child’s reactions to everything from sleep cycles, foods, medications & their specific personality assets & flaws … I think I know the difference between forwards (neurotypical) & backwards (regression) by now.
    My son was going “forwards” as of 11/17/2005. And by 11/29/2005 the “whatever it was” that made him go “backwards” had already started & it was hitting him hard. And the only thing that was different in his world between the 17th & 29th was: birthday cake, ice cream & a double dose of vaccines.

  7. #7 NWO Reporter
    June 13, 2017

    So interviews with doctors about their experience with measles patients are mere anecdotes, worthy only of disregard. Similar to the attitude toward parents who observe their children deteriorate physically and mentally after vaccination. Or who observe growth spurts and other indications of improved health after natural infection and recovery from something like measles.

    When the facts are not on your side, as is the case with vaccine dogma, the only alternative is deception and manipulation. There is ample psyence to facilitate it, and ample opportunity for people who are short on ethics and long on smug arrogance and obnoxious incivility to earn a little (or a lot of) extra scratch purveying it.

  8. #8 Ren
    June 13, 2017

    “So interviews with doctors about their experience with measles patients are mere anecdotes, worthy only of disregard.”

    Not necessarily. Physicians are trained experts in diseases and conditions. Their collective opinions are weighed more heavily versus people who, like you, get most of their information/education/knowledge/wisdom from non-accredited, non-validated sources.

  9. #9 Jonas
    June 13, 2017

    @NWOR-Measles is a potentially very serious illness. The fact that you refuse to even admit that, despite the fact that a number of people here have described the potentially devastating complications of measles, and have pointed out the fact that measles appears to induce a 2-3-year long period of “immune amnesia”, suggests to me that you are just trolling, and have no interest in a real conversation.

    @Ren-Saying that NWOR gets her information from “non-accredited, non-validated sources” is an understatement-I bet she gets most of her “information” from conspiracy theory-obsessed websites.

  10. #10 Lawrence
    June 13, 2017

    @Jonas – she “runs” a conspiracy theory-obsessed website.

  11. #11 Jonas
    June 13, 2017

    Can’t say I’m surprised…

  12. #12 Lawrence
    June 13, 2017

    It’s pretty easy to find, just do Google Search on her “name.”

  13. #13 Jonas
    June 13, 2017

    I think I found it-it’s “NWO Report”, right?

  14. #14 rs
    June 13, 2017

    “I think I found it”

    Why would you want to find it? Some things are better left buried: nuclear waste, corpses, CT sites, et cetera.

  15. #15 brian
    June 13, 2017

    NWO Reporter wrote of

    improved health after natural infection and recovery from something like measles

    It happens that, since measles virus infection produces a powerful immunosuppressive effect that lasts for months or years due to depletion of B and T lymphocytes, reports of “improved health” following recovery from measles should be considered in the light of the extensive evidence that shows increased risk of both infection due to other pathogens and all-cause mortality increase following measles infection.

    Mina MJ et al. Long-term measles-induced immunomodulation increases overall childhood infectious disease mortality. Science. 2015 May 8; 348(6235): 694–699.

    Karp CL, et al. Mechanism of suppression of cell-mediated immunity by measles virus. Science. 1996;273:228–231.

    Hahm B. Measles virus-induced immunosuppression. Current Topics in Microbiology and Immunology. 2009;330:271–287.

    Schneider-Schaulies S, Schneider-Schaulies. Measles virus-induced immunosuppression. Current Topics in Microbiology and Immunology. 2009;330:243–269.

    de Vries RD, et al. Measles Immune Suppression: Lessons from the Macaque Model. PLOS Pathology. 2012;8:e1002885.

  16. #16 Jonas
    June 13, 2017

    I guess just to see how far gone she is…I almost feel sorry for her, after looking (very briefly) at that website, it is abundantly clear that she is totally and completely out of reality.

  17. #17 Jonas
    June 13, 2017

    @Brian-Indeed. Plus, there is also this meta-analysis that conclude that measles vaccination decreased all-cause mortality: Non-specific beneficial effect of measles immunisation: analysis of mortality studies from developing countries, 1995, BMJ

    And on top of that, it also appears that vaccination decreases the risk of SIDS (the opposite of what anti-vaxxers claim): Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis, Vaccine, 2007

    FYI-I tried to link to these studies, but for whatever reason my comment didn’t “go through” when I included the links, so I’m re-posting my comment without the links.

  18. #18 Dangerous Bacon
    June 13, 2017

    Gosh, how dare we (as NWOdiot says) ignore the word of a doctor regarding the severity of measles? How about this one (and I didn’t have to dumpster-dive into a 58-year-old medical journal to find his comments)?

    “Roughly one quarter of cases will have some sort of complication as a result of measles. These complications range from ear infections and diarrhoea to pneumonia and encephalitis. While in developed countries less than 1% of cases die, fatality rates can rise to 3-5% in some African and Asian countries. Complications are more likely in children less than 5 years of age (in up to 40% of cases) and in adults (in up to 30% of cases), and are more severe in those with malnutrition, HIV, or immune deficiencies. Before the first vaccine was licensed in 1963, measles killed more than 2 million children globally each year.”

    “Measles is one of the most contagious diseases known to man and anyone exposed will develop measles, unless they are immune from prior disease or vaccination. Vaccination is typically done from 9-12 months of age and again in the second year of life, as two doses of vaccine are needed to ensure adequate protection.”

    http://www.news-medical.net/news/20130204/Measles-an-interview-with-Dr-Robert-Perry-World-Health-Organization.aspx

  19. #19 brian
    June 13, 2017

    @ Jonas

    Replies with multiple links appear after they are released from automatic moderation.

  20. #20 christine kincaid
    June 13, 2017

    NWO Reporter,
    How in the heck does one go about “to destroy the credibility of the Antivaccine concept”??

    If I’m to blame for that it had to be the easiest “destruction” I’ve ever been responsible for.

    Let me be clear; Autism is no blessing. I left the employed world for a life at 200% below poverty level because I KNOW I’m the best person to care for my son. My boy can’t ride a bike or a skateboard but he wants to. He wants friends & to be invited to birthday parties but he has none & doesn’t. He can’t answer when I ask him “Where does it hurt”. He can’t play outside because he will just run … run into/over people, into roads & towards water. He can’t toilet himself.

    I take him to playgrounds at 10pm so he doesn’t scare or injure “little” kids with his “bull in a china store” affect. He makes paper “valentines” for girlfriends he will never have. Travel plans right down to Google Maps street view directions for vacations we’ll never be able to afford to take. Thousands of pages of illustrations for his future “job” at Nintendo that he’ll never be hired for. It’s heart-breaking. And so NOT a blessing.

    But HE is a blessing.

    Would it further serve to disenfranchise myself from the Anti vaccine “concept” for me to announce that I don’t use experimental alternative/biomedical therapy for my son? He has two things that make him happy: A day organized by his little “routine” that is not cram-packed with appointments & Pepperoni Pizza. I’m not taking that away from him.

    I’m still an Antivaxer. I won’t be vaccinating until I’m taken seriously by scientific research that is relevant to “me & mine”.

    And I don’t subscribe to conspiracy theories that the U.S. Immunization policy/program is fueled by de-population Eugenicists. And Orac’s followers are not “in on” any conspiracy; that’s counter-intuitive to think that a conspiracy could be maintained by your average doctors, lawyers, media & scientists; numbering in the hundreds of thousands.
    What IS a factor as to “why” started almost 60 years ago. It didn’t start with Autism & it won’t end by Autism. And I will now step off those toes.

    There; now I’ve gone & done it. I’ve destroyed my credibility as an Antivaxer. (??)

  21. #21 Panacea
    June 13, 2017

    @NWO Troll:

    “So interviews with doctors about their experience with measles patients are mere anecdotes, worthy only of disregard. Similar to the attitude toward parents who observe their children deteriorate physically and mentally after vaccination. Or who observe growth spurts and other indications of improved health after natural infection and recovery from something like measles.”

    In the letter you mention, yes, it is mere anecdote because they don’t rise to the level of case history, where extensive details of the case are provided to the reader. Case histories are the weakest form of data, but they often form the basis of further scientific inquiry. Your letter doesn’t even rise to that level.

    “When the facts are not on your side, as is the case with vaccine dogma, the only alternative is deception and manipulation.”

    Then why you do keep doing this? Is it because you are getting some of the scratch you mention? After all, there must be some reason you put yourself in the position of a ridiculous fool on such a consistent basis.

    The Paypal “Donate” button provides a clue. What a way to make a living!

    • #22 NWO Reporter
      June 14, 2017

      So are you an official representative of Panacea Biotec? You make an appropriate rep for the corporate rep. You should post your company financials, instead of lying about donation buttons.

  22. #23 herr doktor bimler
    June 13, 2017

    Similar to the attitude toward parents

    I am reminded of “The Force”, who was all about “believe the parents”… until the parents don’t share theForce’s intuition that “their chidren were vaccine-damaged”. Then the story becomes “Ignore what the parents say, they were brainwashed! What would they know? — their experience is worthless.”

    Like NWOR, ‘TheForce” claimed to believe in CIA Parker’s fabrication of a special diagnostic high-pitched “encephalitic cry”, unknown to paediatrics.

    • #24 NWO Reporter
      June 14, 2017

      So many parents have noted a distinctive high-pitched scream in the hours or days following vaccination. What do YOU call it (other than “nothing to worry about”)?

  23. #25 Politicalguineapig
    June 13, 2017

    Lawrence: Fine. Than how about Mr. Crosby or the adult Palins, who are horrible people raised by other horrible people? Would you really want to have them as your neighbors? Would you let your children play with theirs?

  24. #26 dingo199
    June 14, 2017

    NWO reporter’s youtube cartoon take on our evil leader was highly amusing though.

  25. #27 Lawrence
    June 14, 2017

    @PGP – as adults, they’ve made their own choices & the choices of the parents are, in fact, relevant – but please, keep the kids out of it.

  26. #28 Rebecca Fisher
    That London
    June 14, 2017

    Bloody hell, that (NWOR) Stoner woman’s off her head, isn’t she?

  27. #29 Lawrence
    June 14, 2017

    Of course she is – it takes a special kind of crazy to be like that.

    And also, at one point I took pity on the Gnat – but with his recent foray into the worst areas of the alt-right movement, I no longer feel anything but complete disgust.

  28. #30 herr doktor bimler
    June 14, 2017

    What do YOU call it (other than “nothing to worry about”)?

    “Just another rectally-sourced fabrication” is the term that comes to mind.

  29. #31 Narad
    June 14, 2017

    So are you an official representative of Panacea Biotec? You make an appropriate rep for the corporate rep. You should post your company financials, instead of lying about donation buttons.

    I’m not easily impressed, Ginny, but that there was some outstanding creation of a speech action directly from raw medulla oblongata input.

  30. #32 Panacea
    June 14, 2017

    @NWO Troll: Wow, struck a nerve there I see. So are you actually trying to say you DON’T have a Paypal donate button on your website? Now who’s lying.

    I never heard of Panacea Biotec before today. I don’t suppose it ever occurred to you that a nurse might use the ‘nym Panacea, because of the history of the word (from the Greek “cure all”), and the Greek goddess who cures disease, and not have anything to do with some small little start up in India (I live in Ohio btw)?

    Although, actually, Panacea is the name of my superhero nurse with super strength and flight in Hero System 5th Edition who lives in the fictional city of San Angelo, CA. I like the name of the character so much I started using it for my professional ‘nym to seperate it from my ‘nym I use for fun stuff.

    • #33 NWO Reporter
      June 14, 2017

      Given that you continue to lie about me having a donation button, I wonder if you are also lying about your association with Panacea Biotec. But you seem to be a chronic liar, so it’s pointless to expect a straight answer from you about anything. You probably think a panacea is built on lies.

  31. #34 Panacea
    June 14, 2017

    Yes, that must be why when I clicked on the donate button, it led to an email address for “nwo report world news” from YOUR website.

    I saved a screenshot, but I’m not handy with Word Press. Any of our regular and sane readers have a suggestion?

    • #35 NWO Reporter
      June 14, 2017

      There has never been a donate button on my website. Nor have I ever asked for or received donations from anywhere. So either you’ve been looking at the wrong website all this time (LOL), or you are lying again. I’ll bet on the latter. You lie like a rug. You lie like a con artist whose living depends on it. By why mess with euphemisms?

      No wonder you are so secretive about your identity. With your prolific and singularly obnoxious vaccine proselytizing all over the web, you are doing more single-handedly to destroy the credibility of the vaccine paradigm than I could ever hope to achieve. Keep up the good work! 😀

    • #36 NWO Reporter
      June 14, 2017

      This does raise some interesting questions. If you have been looking at the wrong website, how could you have doxed me like you have? Either you just made up a lie about the existence of a donate button, or someone has fed you the information you needed to dox me. Let me know if I can help you with that screen shot. 😉

  32. #37 herr doktor bimler
    June 15, 2017

    So many parents have noted a distinctive high-pitched scream in the hours or days following vaccination.

    NWOR seems to have backed quietly away from the original fan-fic about an encephalitis cry, in preference for “distinctive”.

  33. #38 herr doktor bimler
    June 15, 2017

    What I especially like about the “encephalitic cry” story-line is the way that the ThinkingMoms and NVIC numpties and CIA-Parker-Wannabees like to dress up in white coats and pretend to be paediatricians… solemnly assuring one another that “it is called the ‘encephalitic cry'”, and exchanging medical-sounding definitions for something that they know they made up.
    Some would say “Munchausen’s by Proxy”, but I could not possibly comment.

    • #39 NWO Reporter
      June 15, 2017

      So, are you claiming that parents have not reported a high-pitched scream in the hours and days after vaccination? Or do you acknowledge that such reports have happened, but claim the parents don’t know what they’re talking about?

  34. #40 Narad
    June 15, 2017

    This does raise some interesting questions.

    Hey, Ginny, is the seahorse implanted in your head working well enough for you to get back to your bitching and whining over here, or did you “decide” to cut your losses or something?

  35. #41 Narad
    June 15, 2017

    Some would say “Munchausen’s by Proxy”, but I could not possibly comment.

    Just as well, as it could start firing ‘Christina England’ rules in the Mouse Trap.

    * Bonus track.

  36. #42 herr doktor bimler
    June 15, 2017

    it could start firing ‘Christina England’ rules in the Mouse Trap.

    Yes, I recall that Christina was second link in the human centipede of “encephalitic cry” fabulation.

  37. #43 Se Habla Espol
    June 15, 2017

    #39 NWO Reporter, June 15, 2017

    I think you just nominated yourself as an entry in the “What is an “altie”? list.

    • #44 NWO Reporter
      June 15, 2017

      You mean that desperate attempt to to paint everyone who questions the supremacy of Rockefeller medicine as an idiot? Oh, horrors! I’d better spend the afternoon genuflecting at the CDC shrine to prove my devotion. 😀

      Too bad that cute derogatory name never caught on. Considering some the foul names I’ve been called on this site, “altie” sounds like a term of endearment. 🙂

  38. #45 CJTX
    June 15, 2017

    Rockefeller medicine?

    What does that even mean?

    • #46 NWO Reporter
      June 15, 2017

      A book on this subject was written in the early part of the 20th century called Rockefeller Medicine Men. A reprint is available on Amazon.

  39. #47 Lawrence
    June 15, 2017

    Didn’t you know that the Rockefeller’s merged with the Rothschild’s back in the 1920’s to form the modern version of the Illuminati which controls a substantial portion of the world’s wealth & is constant battle against the Reptillians and Greys for control of the planet?

    Oh, and supposedly they also control the medical / military industrial complex as well……

    • #48 NWO Reporter
      June 15, 2017

      Actually, the book Rockefeller Medicine Men was written long before there was any discussion about so-called Illuminati, Reptilians, Greys, or the military industrial complex. But by all means, don’t let facts get in the way of an opportunity for derision. I trust it boosted your opinion of yourself. 🙂

  40. #49 rs
    June 15, 2017

    Intimate knowledge of CT literature is not something to boast about.

  41. #50 Narad
    June 15, 2017

    A book on this subject was written in the early part of the 20th century called Rockefeller Medicine Men.

    * Gets up from chair *
    * Takes elevator to B-level *
    * Pulls R152.B730 c.2 *

    No, you shіthead, it was written in 1979. I’m holding a fυcking copy.

    P.S. Am I the only one that gets a bit creeped out between between movable bookstacks in an empty library basement?

  42. #51 Narad
    June 15, 2017

    I saved a screenshot, but I’m not handy with Word Press. Any of our regular and sane readers have a suggestion?

    Imgur.com?

  43. #52 Dangerous Bacon
    June 15, 2017

    I am SHOCKED that posters here continue to be distracted by futile loon-shaming, when HOLISTIC doctors continue to be murdered IN COLD BLOOD while the pharmaceutical establishment CACKLES with glee.

    The latest holistic doctor murder (alertly reported by HealthNutNews and Mike’s like-minded Nutnural News) occurred around Memorial Day in Boulder, Colorado. And while local reporters try to paint the death as fueled by jealousy, testosterone and ordering too much food at an organic restaurant, we all know what’s really behind it.

    http://kdvr.com/2017/06/01/suspect-in-fatal-boulder-restaurant-shooting-charged-with-murder/

    Not sure how high the body count has to climb before we agree that something has to be done, like pointing and laughing.

  44. #53 JustaTech
    June 15, 2017

    Narad @50 “Am I the only one that gets a bit creeped out between between movable bookstacks in an empty library basement?”

    Not at all! Especially if they’re automatic condensed shelving. If they’re the manual kind I’d rather be alone. I once had someone start to close a set on me and couldn’t hear me shouting because of their headphones.

  45. #54 herr doktor bimler
    June 15, 2017

    A book on this subject was written in the early part of the 20th century called Rockefeller Medicine Men. A reprint is available on Amazon

    Quite precocious, for an author who was born in 1942! It is almost as if NWOR is citing a book when her knowledge of it is limited to skmming a faulty Amazon review.

    Actually, the book Rockefeller Medicine Men was written long before there was any discussion about so-called Illuminati, Reptilians, Greys, or the military industrial complex..

    Are you going to stick to the date, or just run away from it like everything else?

    • #55 NWO Reporter
      June 16, 2017

      All this kerfuffle because CJTX asked: “Rockefeller medicine? What does that even mean?” I assume the book reference alone cleared that up. 😀

      Yeah, looks like I was mistaken about the published date. I didn’t recall the date, and pulled up one of the versions on Amazon that said “This book was originally published prior to 1923…”

      Therefore, I guess stigmatizing “undervaccinated” children must be okay. Because Richard Brown published Rockefeller Medicine in 1979, after Eisenhower warned about the military industrial complex, but before the promotion of Reptilians by the Illuminati. Under traditional vaccine doctrine, that means vaccines are safe and effective and saved the world. 😀

  46. #56 herr doktor bimler
    June 15, 2017

    Am I the only one that gets a bit creeped out between between movable bookstacks in an empty library basement?

    I do hope that the possibilities of the moving stacks have featured in a horror movie some time.

  47. #57 herr doktor bimler
    June 15, 2017

    So, are you claiming that parents have not reported a high-pitched scream in the hours and days after vaccination?

    I don’t actually give a fuck.
    You started out by claiming, as an unambiguous fact, that there exists a “high-pitched encephalitic scream after vaccination“. You have now wimped out to the mere assertion that infants sometimes make a “high-pitched scream” — this will not be news to most parents! — whle putting that claim in the mouths of unspecified “parents” because you do not have the guts to stand by it yourself.
    But please proceed, say whatever you feel will bring the lols.

    • #58 NWO Reporter
      June 16, 2017

      Some people call it the “encephalitic cry” because it is similar to the high pitched scream observed in children with encephalitis. Some theorize it is caused by a swelling of the brain following vaccination. But herr doktor himler assures us he doesn’t care in the slightest (in more vulgar terms, to emphasize his point). Sieg heil vakzine!

      • #59 Se Habla Espol
        June 16, 2017

        Some theorize anti-vaxxers imagine it is caused by a swelling of the brain following vaccination.

        FTFY, NWOR.

  48. #60 Lawrence
    June 15, 2017

    “Still a better story than Twilight.”

  49. #61 Se Habla Espol
    June 15, 2017

    #44 NWO Reporter, June 15, 2017 seems to be a second nomitation for the “you might be an altie” list, in the form “You might be an altie if you can write

    attempt to to paint everyone who questions the supremacy of Rockefeller medicine as an idiot?

    with a straight face.

    You might be an altie if you can write

    Oh, horrors! I’d better spend the afternoon genuflecting at the CDC shrine to prove my devotion.

    without ROFL.

  50. #62 Narad
    June 16, 2017

    I’m waiting, counsel flunkie.

  51. #63 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    June 16, 2017

    I saved a screenshot, but I’m not handy with Word Press. Any of our regular and sane readers have a suggestion?

    Just post the URL and maybe the date. The Wayback Machine has a long memory.

  52. #64 NWO Reporter
    June 16, 2017

    Yeah, Panacea–post that link. Because I’m still wondering whether you repeatedly lied about that donate button, or you were looking at the wrong site, and got the info you needed to dox me elsewhere. 🙂

    Is this the twilight zone? Plenty of the regular vipers here obviously know my website. It’s not a secret site. Entering my screen name in your favorite search engine should pull it right up. Anyone can look it up on the Way Back Machine. There’s never been a donate button on my site. I’ve never solicited or accepted donations.

    Not that there’s anything wrong with donations, BTW. They’re totally voluntary. It’s not like vaccines, where your children might be denied an education, or your public benefits might be taken away, or your arms might be otherwise twisted if you don’t contribute to the cause. 🙂

    • #65 Se Habla Espol
      June 16, 2017

      They’re totally voluntary. It’s not like vaccines,

      Vaccination is voluntary, in all cases. Just like telling the truth is voluntary: things just go better, in general, when you do it.

      where your children might be denied an education,

      Your kids are never denied an education. Unvaccinated kids may be denied access to schools in places where the social contract is considered important, but the education is still the parents’ responsibility.

      or your public benefits might be taken away,

      Gime, gimme!! I want benefits from the public treasury without needing to do my part to keeping the public healthy or doing my part of the social contract.

      or your arms might be otherwise twisted if you don’t contribute to the cause.

      Please explain whose arms get twisted for being the greedy, self-centered types you’re arguing in favour of.

      • #66 NWO Reporter
        June 16, 2017

        A social contract? Give me a break. Lemme guess–you’re a brave knight enforcing that “social contract.” No doubt it’s rewarding. And you get to wave your toy sword around at anyone who won’t sacrifice their children for the King’s “Greater Good.”

        Greedy and self-centered? Right. All people in Australia receive the child benefit. That is, unless they decline to fully vaccinate their children, in which case it’s taken away. Get informed before you start waving your toy sword around.

        Nice to have the means to home school your children. That’s the only option now in California for parents who won’t sacrifice their children to the King.

        You should be careful about your air of desperation. Knights with toy swords who sound desperate don’t get many supporters.

        • #67 Se Habla Espol
          June 16, 2017

          A social contract? Give me a break.

          No more breaks. Those of you who want all the benefits of society while denying all responsibility to society have already taken all the breaks you’re entitled to, and then some.

          Lemme guess–you’re a brave knight enforcing that “social contract.” No doubt it’s rewarding. And you get to wave your toy sword around at anyone who won’t sacrifice their children for the King’s “Greater Good.”

          Nope. No sword; no king; no sacrifice. Just paying one’s debts rather than taking benefits without offering anything in return.

          Greedy and self-centered? Right.

          Tank you for your self-awareness.

          All people in Australia receive the child benefit.

          Presumably limited to those with children—or do the greedy without children demand yet another benefit for themselves?

          That is, unless they decline to fully vaccinate their children, in which case it’s taken away.

          No, it’s not taken away: it’s not given in the first place to those who just demand the benefit without the responsibility.

          Get informed before you start waving your toy sword around.

          The great-grandkids that hang around here have tpy light sabres: would that count?

          Nice to have the means to home school your children. That’s the only option now in California for parents who won’t sacrifice their children to the King.

          No king; no sacrifice. Public school is available for the unvaccinated when it’s a matter of health, not when it’s just a matter of parental greed&mdashparents who don’t mind endangering the kids who can’t be vaccinated.

          You should be careful about your air of desperation. Knights with toy swords who sound desperate don’t get many supporters.

          No sword; no desperation. No need to desperately invent conspiracies to try to justify any greed.

          • #68 NWO Reporter
            June 16, 2017

            Vaccines have not saved us from any deadly diseases. None. Nada. Your proposition is ridiculous in light of that. No one has a “social contract” to “protect” themselves against diseases that are not a serious threat in the first place–particularly when people who want the vaccine are free to get it, and “protect” themselves if they think the vaccine works, and is less of a risk than the disease.

            And if you want to protect those “vulnerable” few–buy them a bubble. It’s the only thing that could arguably help protect them, as they are at risk from everything.

          • #69 CJTX
            June 16, 2017

            NWO Troll @68

            Seriously, you’re dull.

            Assertion after assertion with nothing approaching the slightest bit of evidence.

            Thousands and thousands of doctors and researchers and scientist involved in thousands of studies involving perhaps millions of people are wrong.

            Make your case. You’ve been challenged before and never come through. Put up or shut up.

          • #70 NWO Reporter
            June 16, 2017

            LOL. Right. You’re not interested in the case against vaccines, you know that–you’re interested in convincing people not to examine it objectively and closely. People who are interested in learning about the case against vaccines are not going to come here. And they undoubtedly understand that their deeply held lifelong beliefs are not going to be changed by a blog comment. 😀

          • #71 CJTX
            June 16, 2017

            so nothing? you’vw got nothing, you’re just going to keep shrieking untrue things at us. got it.

          • #72 NWO Reporter
            June 17, 2017

            FYI, “LOL” does not mean “shrieking” in common internet parlance–it means I’m laughing out loud at your blatant attempts at manipulation and deception. But I realize it must be difficult for you, with only psyence on your side. 🙂

          • #73 Se Habla Espol
            June 17, 2017

            FYI, “LOL” does not mean “shrieking” in common internet parlance–it means I’m laughing out loud

            Your reply here also means you don’t bother reading what others have to say, that you’re too greedy to endanger your religious beliefs with facts.

            at your blatant attempts at manipulation and deception.

            What might those “attempts at manipulation and deception” be? Are you looking in the mirror again?

            But I realize it must be difficult for you, with only psyence on your side.

            No, CJTX and the rest of us have reality, evidence, and science on our side. If we knew what “psyence” might be, we might consider it, too.

          • #74 CJTX
            June 17, 2017

            Deflection.

            Here, I’ll make it easy. Give us the title of a book, a blog post, ANYTHING that you would say is persuasive evidence to support your absolutely, completely BASELESS assertions.

            (And thanks for the textbook example of ad hominem)

          • #75 NWO Reporter
            June 17, 2017

            Thanks for reminding me…I forgot reversal–accusing others of the fallacies you utilize yourself. That’s a big one in your tactical manual that deserves specific mention.

          • #76 CJTX
            June 17, 2017

            “forgot reversal–accusing others of the fallacies you utilize yourself.”

            I could say the same about you – just now. Oh, if only there were some objective measurement to settle this dispute. “My kingdom for a fact.”
            Oh well, nevermind.

            “That’s a big one in your tactical manual that deserves specific mention.”

            II have apparently misplaced my tactical manual…wait, I never had one.

            PROOF! EVIDENCE! Something besides assertions..gives us something or go away.
            No? Still nothing? Thought so.

          • #77 Se Habla Espol
            June 17, 2017

            Where and how, specifically, has CJTX used “reversal–accusing others of the fallacies you utilize yourself”, specifying the fallacy or fallacies you accuse CJTX of?

          • #78 Se Habla Espol
            June 17, 2017

            LOL. Right. You’re not interested in the case against vaccines,

            We would be if you actually had one. It appears that your “case against vaccines” consists of wild claims and accusations, along with excuses for not having any actual evidence.

            you know that–you’re interested in convincing people not to examine it objectively and closely.

            The people who hang out around here are the people who are most interested in examining actual evidence closely and objectively.

            People who are interested in learning about the case against vaccines are not going to come here.

            That’s right, since this blog is one of those that works with evidence, not wild claims and excuses.

            And they undoubtedly understand that their deeply held lifelong beliefs are not going to be changed by a blog comment.

            Yes, we challenge people who come here with their religious beliefs, like you, who wouldn’t be interested in reality. We don’t challenge them with mere blog comments, either, like yours: we provide evidence.

          • #79 NWO Reporter
            June 17, 2017

            You don’t provide evidence. You provide (cherry-picked) ‘evidence’ (notice the sneer quotes), with a generous helping of derision, ridicule, straw men, ad hominem attacks, and every other logical fallacy in your tactical manual.

          • #80 Se Habla Espol
            June 17, 2017

            You don’t provide evidence.

            What claims have I made that require evidence not already provided, specifically.

            You provide (cherry-picked) ‘evidence’ (notice the sneer quotes),

            What’s the difference between “evidence” and “'evidence'“, specifically. You must imagine that there is some significant difference, otherwise your second sentence flatly contradicts your first.

            with a generous helping of derision,

            I prefer being a generous person, particularly with well-deserved ridicule and scorn.
            I’ll admit that nearly everything I’ve read from you is ridiculous, and thus deserving of my scorn..

            ridicule,

            Ridicule is redundant, since it’s a part of derision.

            straw men,

            What straw men, specifically, have I set up?

            ad hominem attacks,

            I admit to attacking your ridiculous claims and opinions, and to drawing obvious inferences from them. How does this constitute out-of-bounds ad hominem attacks?

            and every other logical fallacy

            Where, specifically, have I needed to employ any (I won’t insist on ‘every’) logical fallacy in addressing the silly stuff you’re claiming?

            in your tactical manual.

          • #81 Se Habla Espol
            Reality, connected by internet to NWOR's world
            June 17, 2017

            Vaccines have not saved us from any deadly diseases. None. Nada.

            You’re making a serious claim here. You therefore have a serious responsibility to provide irrefutable, sound, credible evidence to support it. You will not be able to, in this universe (only in the NWO Conspiracy universe), so you have the responsibility to yourself, any ethics you may have, and reality to withdraw it.

            Your proposition is ridiculous in light of that.

            When [***snorfle***] you present your evidence (not just CT babblings) we’ll discuss “ridiculous”.

            No one has a “social contract” to “protect” themselves against diseases that are not a serious threat in the first place–particularly when people who want the vaccine are free to get it, and “protect” themselves if they think the vaccine works, and is less of a risk than the disease.

            The social contract includes taking steps to avoid endangering others. Such steps include co-operation in eradicating dangerous diseases. The only known way of doing so is vaccination. The fact that you may be protecting yourself in the process is just a side benefit to you.

            And if you want to protect those “vulnerable” few–buy them a bubble. It’s the only thing that could arguably help protect them, as they are at risk from everything.

            Herd immunity is another side benefit of disease eradication, a step on the way to eradication. Claiming that those who are especially protected by herd immunity are somehow less than human, and don’t deserve to be treated as real people but as animals belonging in a bubble is nothing more than a demonstration of the greed of the anti-vaxxers.

  53. #82 Narad
    June 16, 2017

    Please review, Gindo.

  54. #83 Narad
    June 16, 2017

    ^ Hey, remember when SM and Chris were the same person? Good times, Ginny.

  55. #84 Chris Preston
    Australia
    June 16, 2017

    Are you going to stick to the date, or just run away from it like everything else?

    Running away from claims is what Ginny specializes in.

    I start to worry about whether there is something unusual put in the water in Austin.

  56. #85 Chris Preston
    June 16, 2017

    Sad blockquote fail.

  57. #86 Lawrence
    June 16, 2017

    “Some” also believe that they’ve been kidnapped by extraterrestrials…..

    • #87 NWO Reporter
      June 16, 2017

      And “some” believe whatever they’re told to believe. And “some” pretend to, for the right price.

      • #88 Se Habla Espol
        June 16, 2017

        So are you a Troo Believer™ in the conspiracy theories you peddle, or just a paid shill for them?

  58. #89 herr doktor bimler
    June 16, 2017

    Some people call it the “encephalitic cry” because it is similar to the high pitched scream observed in children with encephalitis.

    Tell us more about this “high pitched scream observed in children with encephalitis”. I repeat the invitation to cite any medical or paediatric textbook or paper that lists “high-pitched screaming” as a symptom of encephalitis in infants.

    No, wait, there is no such source, as this “high-pitched screaming = encephalitis” link does not exist outside of the diseased heads of CIA Parker and her human centipede of followers.

    Some people call it the “encephalitic cry” […] Some theorize

    Citing the authority of “Some people say” is the epitome of cowardice. I don’t give two tugs on a dead dingo’s dick what “some unnamed, nebulous people” might say or theorise, I am wondering what you believe.

    The organ-grinders aren’t here so I’m asking the monkey.

  59. #90 JustaTech
    June 16, 2017

    Why am I so not surprised that NWO doesn’t understand what the social contract is?
    At this point, when I think of NWO I think of the line from the Weird Al song “If I’m bit by a zombie, probably not telling you”.
    Tacky.

  60. #91 Lawrence
    June 16, 2017

    You keep describing yourself, to a tee.

    • #92 NWO Reporter
      June 16, 2017

      Again, this blog turns into the Twilight Zone. 😀

      In The World According to Lawrence, the idea that vaccines are designed to keep humanity sick, weak and obedient is being thrust upon us by all the major media, government health agencies, ‘official’ experts–even our own doctors! “Don’t take the vaccines!” they plead. And I, in my naivete, believe them.

      But brave free-thinker Lawrence and his comrades are bucking consensus reality. Against all odds, they rally the vaccine flag! 😀 😀 😀

  61. #93 Lawrence
    June 16, 2017

    Your blathering betray your ignorance.

    Why don’t you go back to the Gnat’s site?

    He could use no commenters.

  62. #94 Lawrence
    June 16, 2017

    New commenters

  63. #95 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    June 16, 2017

    Vaccines have not saved us from any deadly diseases.

    It’s nice to know that there are no deadly diseases, then.

    Seriously, little baby-child, you’re gonna say smallpox isnt extinct in the wild? If it’s still out there, why don’t we still feed kids sugar cubes with pink drops on them? It was a common tactic of the evil doktors to pop a sugar cube in us kidz mouths, then stick us with mecury filled syringes just so they didn’t have to listen to our “encephalitic cries”.

    (Please forgive my spelling. NWOR seems to like silly spellings, and I’m trying to relate to the kids. I may be old and in the way, but, hey, while your only young once, you can be childish your whole life.)

  64. #96 Narad
    June 17, 2017

    FYI, “LOL” does not mean “shrieking” in common internet parlance

    No, it means that one is an imbecile. See “September, Eternal.”

  65. #97 Narad
    June 17, 2017

    I assume the book reference alone cleared that up.

    In the sense that you barfed it up purely Because Title?

  66. #98 Narad
    June 17, 2017

    ^ More blockquote fail on my part.

  67. #99 Chris Preston
    June 17, 2017

    Your blathering betray your ignorance.

    Why don’t you go back to the Gnat’s site?

    He could use no commenters.

    I think you were more right the first time. Who would be wanting to share a platform with Hans Litten/White Rose?

  68. #100 herr doktor bimler
    June 17, 2017

    All people in Australia receive the child benefit. That is, unless they decline to fully vaccinate their children, in which case it’s taken away

    No no no no. I realise the effort involved, but you really should take the effort to educate yourself about what you are talking about, before, umm, talking about it.
    Perhaps you are confusing the Australian Child Benefit options with the Australian Child Care Benefit, and Child Care Rebate, the last two being available for children in child care, and contingent upon the child not spreading diseases to other children using the same child-care options.

    Perhaps you should consult an Australian about this rather straighforward distinction? Or perhaps you would rather remain in ignorance, with the additional options for uninformed shouting that are thereby available?

  69. #101 Dangerous Bacon
    June 17, 2017

    “Seriously, little baby-child, you’re gonna say smallpox isnt extinct in the wild?”

    But of course smallpox still exists. Doctors on PHarma’s payroll employ rule #32 in their Tactical Manual, covering up smallpox cases by calling them something else – acne, eczema, Lyme disease and so on. Concealed smallpox is what causes those encephalitic cries.

    Does anyone realize that many of those murdered Holistic Doctors were intentionally given similar diseases by covert vaccine injection? It’s all in the Manual.

  70. #102 Chris Preston
    Australia
    June 17, 2017

    All people in Australia receive the child benefit. That is, unless they decline to fully vaccinate their children, in which case it’s taken away

    What you are ignorantly referring to is Family Tax Benefit Part A Supplement. This is an amount up to $726.35 per child paid to families at the end of the tax year provided they meet the requirements. These include a combined taxable income of under $80,000 and the immunization requirements.

    If you don’t meet the immunization requirements, the money is not taken away, as it has not been given. The purpose of the payment is to incentivise childhood vaccination, so those who don’t vaccinate are not entitled to the payment.

    Reading the rules is easy.

  71. #103 Science Mom
    http://justthevax.blogspot.com/
    June 17, 2017

    ^ Hey, remember when SM and Chris were the same person? Good times, Ginny.

    Blimey, what’s with these anti-vaxx gobshites? Just because they run about creating socks to pat themselves on the back doesn’t mean the rest of us do.

    • #104 NWO Reporter
      June 18, 2017

      I know, right? Just look at all the pats on the back I get when I come here–it’s not fair! 😀 While poor Science Mom has to bravely stand alone in the battle for mass vaccination. 😀

  72. #105 Narad
    June 18, 2017

    Just look at all the pats on the back I get when I come here–it’s not fair!

    Well, you are the fυckwit making up the sockpuppet shіt, after all. Doesn’t Julian also get that moronic treatment in your Xtranormal Nawmal brain dropping?

  73. #106 TBruce
    June 18, 2017

    Just look at all the pats on the back I get when I come here–it’s not fair! 😀

    So true – if by “pats on the back” you mean “pats” on the lowest part of your back administered with a foot. Yet here you are, again and again.

  74. #107 Opus
    Just north of the buckle on the Bible Belt
    June 18, 2017

    Narad @ #105

    Although I earlier thought your description of Ginny as a ‘f*ckst@in’* was appropriate I’ve reconsidered. An actual f*ckst@in has information and reflects reality – proof that something happened, possibly who was involved. However, Ginny’s posts have no information whatsoever – a null set – and any relationship to reality is purely coincidental.
    .
    I’d therefore like to apologize to the trillions of male gametes who left only a f*ckst@in to document their existence. They deserve better than to be compared to Ginny.
    .
    On a more serious note, I’ve been exposed to a woo-natic for years; he’s married to my sister. He, Ginny and the Gnat have one characteristic in common which I find noteworthy: They are all failures.
    My brother-in-law has sipped ever more deeply of the fountains of woo as he slid from comfortably middle-class to borderline poverty-level. He started out thinking that mildew was a health concern, worked his way through Wakefield true believer status and now is liable to spout German New Medicine and Hulda Clark in the same sentence.
    The Gnat is unable to survive on his own, without funding from his parents. To make matters worse, every check comes from the two people whose genes probably contributed to his neurological issues and he can’t admit it to himself.
    Finally Ginny is apparently a failure in two careers. Her ‘fine art’ is anything but, as a cursory look at her website reveals.. An attorney working for a private IV-D agency is about like a Culinary Institute of America graduate dropping fries at McDonalds. She’s in the legal field and the CIA graduate is in the culinary field, but neither one has anything to be proud of.
    My working hypothesis is that failure drives them to search for competence, and since they can’t achieve that in real life they construct a reality in which they are competent. It would all be fine but they insist on inflicting their alternate reality on the rest of us.

    *Although, for the record I still think that “Ginny F*ckst@in and the Stoners” would be a great band name.

  75. #108 NWO Reporter
    June 19, 2017

    Since we seem to be on a first and last name basis here instead of our chosen screen names, why don’t all you charming intellectuals provide yours? Seems like the regulars here make a habit of doxing dissenters, while hiding behind their own anonymity. 🙂

  76. #109 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    June 19, 2017

    However, Ginny’s posts have no information whatsoever …

    Strictly speaking, I’d disagree. I’ve often found her post to be the opposite of established fact as I know it to be true, so I just assume everything she says is a lie. I do agree with your assessment of her artistic abilities, and wonder if there is anyone who has paid more than $7.00 USD for anoriginal of her work.

    And I’d provide my last name, but it wouldn’t help you, Ginny. According to http://howmanyofme.com there are 1346 in the USA with ‘Johnny’ and my last name, so I’d have to tell you the town also, but that wouldn’t help, because my real name is John and that adds another 22K+ to the mix (I go by Johnny, because my whole life I’ve been surrounded by up to 3 other Johns, and it was an easy way to avoid confusion).

    It may interest you to know that there are 388 Virginia Stones in the US, according to the same site.

    • #110 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      I’m sure you could clarify who you are, regardless how common the name. But I don’t blame you for not wanting to–I can imagine the embarrassment. 😀

    • #111 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Johnny: “Look how good I can insult people online, Mom!”
      Mom: “Oh, Johnny, I’m so proud of you!” 😀

  77. #112 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    June 19, 2017

    I’m an old guy, and I don’t Facebook or anything like that, so I’d have to post my address, and that ain’t gonna happen anytime soon. The anti-vax loons are, well, loons. I’ve been retired a few years, but I wouldn’t put it past ’em to show up and bother the neighbors.

    And Mom (and Dad) are dead, but Mom probably wouldn’t be much impressed – low degree of difficulty, and all.

    • #113 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      You must be young at heart, considering the way you embrace online anonymity to reject old school civility.

      • #114 Se Habla Espol
        June 19, 2017

        Johnny does seem young at heart, and he’s quite civil, at least to those who merit traditional civility.

  78. #115 Narad
    June 19, 2017

    I’d therefore like to apologize to the trillions of male gametes who left only a f*ckst@in to document their existence.

    Sexist.

  79. #116 Narad
    June 19, 2017

    Seems like the regulars here make a habit of doxing dissenters, while hiding behind their own anonymity.

    One can’t “dox” someone whose name is an advertisement for their own site (and sad-trombone Twatter presence) when they contain the fυcking information in the first place, you puddle of anaerobic decay.

    • #117 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Sounds like you need to look up the definition of doxing, Narad. Who are you?

      • #118 Se Habla Espol
        June 19, 2017

        In what respect would Narad’s IRL identity matter? are you “reporting” to an enforcer of your conspiracy religion?

      • #119 Se Habla Espol
        June 20, 2017

        NWOR, if you were doxed, it was you that did the doxing. Blaming Narad won’t change reality.

    • #120 Se Habla Espol
      June 19, 2017

      Now, Narad, you can’t really expect one who follows and proselytizes for a conspiracy religion to actually understand the way the world works and what words really mean.

  80. #121 Chris Preston
    June 19, 2017

    Since we seem to be on a first and last name basis here instead of our chosen screen names, why don’t all you charming intellectuals provide yours?

    Seriously?

    Why does it matter who is writing? What matters is whether what they write is correct and has value. Something you have failed to achieve on either count so far.

    The fact that you have a website for splashing your opinionidiocy around and use the name of that website as your screen name does make people wonder what other idiotic ideas you are proud of.

  81. #122 herr doktor bimler
    June 19, 2017

    NWOR:
    All people in Australia receive the child benefit. That is, unless they decline to fully vaccinate their children, in which case it’s taken away. Get informed

    I just want to repeat this down here at the bottom of the thread, to make it easier to look at it and laugh.

    • #123 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Of course herr doktor finds it hilarious that benefits are being withheld from the poorest families in Australia unless they subject their children to vaccination. No doubt Merck and company find it hilarious, too. Sieg heil vakzine!

  82. #124 Dangerous Bacon
    June 19, 2017

    In other news from the Land of Conspiratorial Pseudoscience, Dan Olmsted will soon be reaching out from the grave with a new book (warning, shield your irony meters):

    https://www.amazon.com/Denial-Refusing-Epidemic-Children-Families/dp/1510716947/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1497875391&sr=8-1&keywords=olmsted+blaxill

  83. #125 Lawrence
    June 19, 2017

    And the societal cost of unchecked diseases?

    Certainly far more than whatever is withheld from those who knowingly put the lives of others in danger by not vaccinating.

    • #126 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Your comment presumes vaccines reduce all cause morbidity and mortality. At best, that’s unproven, and may very well be entirely false. Your comment implies that vaccines don’t necessarily protect those who get them. That’s true. Your comment also implies that very weak children will be saved if all the healthy children are subjected to vaccination. That’s false. The very weak are at risk from everything–it wouldn’t be possible to vaccinate for most of those risks, even if vaccines would necessarily protect from those risks, which they don’t.

      • #127 CJTX
        June 19, 2017

        Still no proof, evidence, or even a citation I see.
        Somethings never change.

        • #128 NWO Reporter
          June 19, 2017

          It is not possible to produce a citation to prove that a claim is unproven. No citation is needed to prove that vaccines don’t always work–it’s common knowledge, even the manufacturer’s acknowledge it. And as for weak children being at risk from everything–it’s common sense, and common knowledge.

          • #129 CJTX
            June 19, 2017

            1) I didn’t ask for proof, I asked for evidence.
            2) Researchers demonstrate the non-effectiveness of a treatment all the time – Dr. G. talks about them, they’re called studies. He’s gone through many studies that show things like reiki and acupuncture show NO demonstrable benefit.
            3) If you’re going to claim that ALL the studies that have been done showing demonstrable benefit of vaccines, then you need SOMETHING to back that claim up. You have nothing.
            4) Common knowledge is not nearly as common as you seem to think and very often not useful. See the use of tobacco, lead, mercury, heroin, asbestos, etc etc etc.

          • #130 NWO Reporter
            June 19, 2017

            It is not possible to provide evidence that a claim is unproven, only to point out the absence of evidence. There are no long term studies comparing the overall morbidity and mortality of fully vaccinated and fully vaccinated children, where “overall morbidity and mortality” includes not only the illnesses they were vaccinated for, but also SIDS, cancer, epilepsy, chronic allergies, asthma, diabetes, neurological disorders, and other common conditions.

            So you dispute the claim that vaccines don’t always prevent the disease they were intended to prevent? In other words, you contend the vaccine always prevents the disease? I just want to be sure you dispute it before I take the time to provide evidence of a claim that even vaccine manufacturers agree with. 🙂

            Also, just to be clear, you dispute the claim that weak children are at greater risk of virtually everything, not just so-called vaccine-preventable diseases? Again, I don’t want to waste my time until you confirm that you dispute this.

  84. #131 Lawrence
    June 19, 2017

    Oh, and she skirts right on the line of openly advocating that “weaker” children just be allowed to die of preventable diseases….

    • #132 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Actually, I’d favor providing them with bubbles to live in if they so desire. Certainly they are not gong to be safer by wandering around vaccinated people–especially those who are known to be infected because they were recently vaccinated with a live virus vaccine.

  85. #133 Lawrence
    June 19, 2017

    Perhaps we can get our resident troll to give us her dissertation on the disappearance of Rinderpest?

  86. #134 Lawrence
    June 19, 2017

    You know they’re delusional when they start throwing about “It’s common knowledge.”

    Common to whom? Certainly one like yourself should be able to provide ample proof of your statements, right?

    • #135 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Surely you can’t be serious with regard to the 3 propositions I stated. You actually dispute them? 😀

  87. #136 CJTX
    June 19, 2017

    Posted for informational purposes, and not cause I think it’ll make somebody’s head explode (metaphorically):

    June 19, 2017
    Michele Gorman
    Posted with permission from Newsweek
    Amid a measles epidemic spreading throughout Europe, the Italian government approved a measure to fine parents who don’t seek medical help on vaccinating their children. The measure even puts parents at risk of losing custody if they don’t vaccinate their kids.

    Related: Zika vaccine headed to Phase 2 trial

    Despite objections, Italian officials in May ruled that children must be vaccinated against 12 common illnesses—including polio, tetanus, hepatitis B, measles, mumps, chicken pox and whooping cough—before they can enroll in state-run schools, the BBC reported. Parents reportedly will face steep fines for sending non-vaccinated kids to child care facilities or schools.

    Public health officials point to extensive research showing vaccines protect the common good and that adverse side effects are rare, and numerous scientific studies have failed to find a connection between vaccines and autism. But concerns about a direct relation have lingered.

    Measles, a preventable disease, is still common in many parts of the world, including some countries in Africa, Asia, Europe and the Pacific. It’s hitting Europe hard this year, mainly in Italy and Romania, according to the World Health Organization. Romania has reported more than 3,400 cases and 17 deaths since January 2016, with the majority of cases concentrated in areas where immunization coverage is especially low. Italy has seen a sharp rise in cases, with at least 400 already this year. Experts predict the outbreak will only get worse.

    Amid the measles outbreak, other countries have tightened their laws. In Germany, for example, parents who don’t seek medical advice on whether to vaccinate their children could face fines of up to about $2,800, the BBC reported.

    The CDC recommends that travelers to Italy protect themselves by ensuring they are vaccinated against measles, particularly infants ages 6 to 11 months and children 1 or older.

  88. #137 Lawrence
    June 19, 2017

    So, measles isn’t “fatal” until it is……I ask anti-vaxers to let us know exactly how many kids have to die before they consider it unacceptable.

    • #138 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      How many children have to die or suffer serious injury from the measles vaccine before you consider it unacceptable?

  89. #139 Lawrence
    June 19, 2017

    She’s just hopeless…..

  90. #140 The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge
    June 19, 2017

    Lawrence @ 135:

    So, measles isn’t “fatal” until it is……I ask anti-vaxers to let us know exactly how many kids have to die before they consider it unacceptable.

    All of them, Charlie.

    To repeat:

    “What do Earth men offer you? What have you obtained from them in the past? Powders and liquids for the sick? We Klingons believe as you do. The sick should die. Only the strong should live.”

  91. #141 Lawrence
    June 19, 2017

    None would be a good start – which is why vaccines are tested, and re-tested, and tested again through multiple stages of clinical trials & then tracked by multiple vaccine safety methodologies, includes VAERS & the vaccine safety datalink to ensure that they remain safe.

    Diseases aren’t “safe” and there is no way that they ever would be…..

    • #142 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Vaccines aren’t “safe” and there is no way they ever could be. The entire paradigm is fundamentally flawed.

      • #143 Se Habla Espol
        June 19, 2017

        Vaccines aren’t “safe” and there is no way they ever could be.

        The evidence for this statement would be what, exactly? It’s not necessary to demonstrate 100% unsafty, just show that vaccines are more than 1% as “unsafe” as the diseases they address.

        The entire paradigm is fundamentally flawed.

        On what basis is the communicable disease vs vaccine paradigm “fatally flawed”? What evidence do you adduce to demonstrate this/these fatal flaws(s)?

  92. #144 Lawrence
    June 19, 2017

    It’s useless having a conversation with an idiot conspiracy theorist who doesn’t even understand the fundamental basics of immunology.

    Obviously, it’s easier for her to run a conspiracy website and regurgitate the same old lies and misinformation than it is to crack open a textbook.

    • #145 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      The vaccine theory of disease prevention is totally outside of usual training in immunology. Vaccines introduce disease to the body in a way that does not occur in nature, and the immune response is very different than it would be for a naturally introduced pathogen.

      • #146 Se Habla Espol
        June 19, 2017

        The vaccine theory of disease prevention is totally outside of usual training in immunology.

        Are you referring to the body’s “usual training in immunology” or the immunologist’s “usual training in immunology”? In either case, evidence (not just unsupported claims) is required that the claim is true and that the difference has any sigmnificance whatsoever.

        Vaccines introduce disease to the body in a way that does not occur in nature,

        How does he pathogen or antigen not “occur in nature”? How are any such differences of any significance whatsoever? (We can ignore the obvious, that the antigen is not capable of causing the disease that the pathogen usually causes—here we can also ignore cowpox vs smallpox.)

        and the immune response is very different than it would be for a naturally introduced pathogen.

        How is the immune response different for the antigen vs the pathogen? In what respects might such difference(s) be at all significant?

  93. #147 Lawrence
    June 19, 2017

    And she gives herself an easy excuse for her own ignorance “the textbooks are all bought or filled with fake info” – therefore she never has to face up to the fact that she’s nothing more than a uneducated buffoon.

  94. #148 herr doktor bimler
    June 19, 2017

    Vaccines introduce disease to the body in a way that does not occur in nature

    Inhalation and swallowing do not occur in nature? I am seriously concerned about NWOR’s metabolism.

    • #149 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Working on those aerosol vaccines, herr doktor himler? How’s that going? Are you spreading them by plane now, to get the job done without the pesky need for consent? Inquiring minds want to know!

      PS: Which vaccines are swallowed? Is that some kind of nanotech that can slipped into our food and water supply on the down low? 🙂

  95. #150 Lawrence
    June 19, 2017

    Wow – you really believe that the body’s immune system cares where the antigens come from?

    You really are a complete imbecile.

    • #151 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Oh, really. I suppose you think people naturally acquire measles by injection into muscle tissue, instead of through mucus membranes, too. And that the immune response is the same in both cases. 😀

      • #152 Se Habla Espol
        June 19, 2017

        I suppose you think people naturally acquire measles by injection into muscle tissue, instead of through mucus membranes, too.

        What distinction does the immune system make between various routes of entry of the pathogen? If it did, why would not one would logically expect the immune system to respond more vigorously to the “unusual” route than to the usual one.

        And that the immune response is the same in both cases.

        What evidence do you have that the immune system responds in ways that are significantly different? (Unsupported claims, as always, are nonresponsive.)

        • #153 NWO Reporter
          June 19, 2017

          I’m not here to convince you. This is not the right forum for people who want to learn the other side of the vaccine story, and there are many experts who can explain it far better than I can. 🙂

          • #154 CJTX
            June 19, 2017

            oooh, give us the name of just a few of these “experts.”

            It’s the closest you’ve ever come to anything resembling support for your (bizarre) positions.

          • #155 NWO Reporter
            June 19, 2017

            Nope. They’re easy to find. Once people review their work, they can come back here better prepared to accurately assess your proclamations that they’ve been “discredited” or “thoroughly debunked.” 😀

          • #156 CJTX
            June 19, 2017

            So another big whiff…cause there are no experts, are there?
            I’ve been Lucy’ed!

          • #157 Se Habla Espol
            June 20, 2017

            They’re easy to find.

            In that case, you’ll have no problem citing them as partial fulfillment of your burden of proof.

            It’s only partial, since your burden of proof (that your claims have some substance to them) can only rely on evidence, not on somebody you know will just parrot them.

          • #158 Se Habla Espol
            June 20, 2017

            I’m not here to convince you. This is not the right forum for people who want to learn the other side of the vaccine story, and there are many experts who can explain it far better than I can.

            In other words, you admit that you have no evidence, but you have some silver-tongued salesmen who you’d prefer to palm us of on.

            We don’t care about your designated authorities: we’re interested in evidence, since the evidence—all of it—is the best, the only, reflection of reality.

  96. #159 Opus
    Just north of the buckle on the bible belt
    June 19, 2017

    Ginny said: “The vaccine theory of disease prevention is totally outside of usual training in immunology. Vaccines introduce disease to the body in a way that does not occur in nature, and the immune response is very different than it would be for a naturally introduced pathogen.”
    .
    It’s easy to see why you’re a failure as a lawyer, if your respect for legal precedents resembles in any way your attitude toward medical/scholastic references.
    .
    If we apply Ginny’s ‘logic’ to a closing argument in a criminal case she’d end up with something like this: “Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, the defense has based their entire case upon the concept that, under American law, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. This is absolute balderdash. It’s common knowledge that guilty people have no protection against self-incrimination. It’s common knowledge that there is no such thing as an illegal or unconstitutional warrant for people who are guilty of crimes. The cases the defense has cited, Miranda v. Arizona, United States v. Jones, Riley v. California, never happened. The defense is fabricating bogus Supreme court decisions because they don’t have a defense otherwise. It stands to reason, therefore, that the defendants would not have been charged with a crime had they not been guilty. I rest my case.”

    • #160 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      What’s your name, Opus?

  97. #161 Narad
    June 19, 2017

    Of course herr doktor finds it hilarious that benefits are being withheld from the poorest families in Australia unless they subject their children to vaccination. No doubt Merck and company find it hilarious, too. Sieg heil vakzine!

    Squirm, Mason, squirm.

  98. #162 Narad
    June 19, 2017

    The vaccine theory of disease prevention is totally outside of usual training in immunology.

    Do go on.

  99. #163 Narad
    June 19, 2017

    ^ Blockquotes again.

  100. #164 herr doktor bimler
    June 19, 2017

    hilarious that benefits are being withheld from the poorest families in Australia

    I feel inspired to point and laugh when some numptie flips between “All people in Australia” to “the poorest families”, while lecturing everyone else on the need to educate themselves. Pointing and laughing at Australians is also part of my national heritage but it doesn’t seem applicable in this case.
    How’s that search going, for evidence that “a high-pitched scream” is a diagnostic symptom of encephalitis?

    • #165 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Nice attempt to deflect the issue: That you find it hilarious that benefits are being withheld from the poorest families in Australia unless they subject their children to the full vaccination schedule. 🙂

  101. #166 Narad
    June 19, 2017

    I suppose you think people naturally acquire measles by injection into muscle tissue, instead of through mucus membranes, too. And that the immune response is the same in both cases.

    Perhaps you could use your doubtlessly exquisite knowledge of “usual training in immunology” to explain how the responses differ, O talentless cartoonist.

  102. #167 JustaTech
    June 19, 2017

    It’s a good thing that the mind is not needed to direct immune responses, or NWO would be in serious trouble.

  103. #168 Rich Bly
    Ocean Shores
    June 19, 2017

    How things change, in the past my pro-vaccine stance was because of having lived through many of the diseases that are now easily preventable (for most children). I am now going to become a step-father (at my age) in about 3 months. My stepson (probably but not quite sure yet) will have every vaccine available to protect his/her health.

    Dribbling idiots like you NWOR need to learn what the real world is like. Living is hazardous to your health and you must do everything you can to protect your health.

    I recently had prostate cancer. Researchers are now showing a probable link between HPV and prostate cancer. It very possible that if HPV vaccine had been available when I was young, I would not had to deal with all the issues of prostate cancer. So shut the f up until you actual know something.

    • #169 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      I’m sorry to hear about your cancer. Life is certainly a learning experience. I also lived through many of the usual childhood diseases without any problems, as did everyone I knew and went to school with. When I first heard about the chickenpox vaccine as an adult, I actually thought it was a joke.

      I know that people recover naturally and fully from the vast majority of HPV infections, often without realizing they have it. I know there are dozens of HPV strains, and the HPV vaccine claims to help prevent only a few of them, and the duration of the claimed protection is unknown. I know that HPV infection can occur in childhood or even in the womb, and getting the HPV vaccine after prior infection with HPV could actually increase your chances of developing cancer. I know the HPV vaccine has not been proven to have prevented a single case of cancer. I know the HPV vaccine has not been tested for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential. I also know the HPV vaccine has one of the highest reported incidence of serious adverse reactions of any vaccine. It certainly doesn’t sound worth pining for a lost opportunity to take it.

  104. #170 Gray Falcon
    June 19, 2017

    NWO Reporter, how do we know you’re not in the pay of the big Pharma companies? Prevention of diseases is nowhere near as profitable as treatment.

    • #171 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Vaccines are far more profitable. Not just the administration of the vaccines, but from the wide range of iatrogenic illnesses caused by the vaccines, many of which are chronic and lifelong. By contrast, many of the once common childhood diseases are so mild, they often don’t require medical attention at all. By the late 1950s, only 1 in 10 cases of measles was even being reported, for example. It was likely much lower for chicken pox.

      • #172 Se Habla Espol
        June 19, 2017

        Vaccines are far more profitable.

        Evidence is required for this claim, which we fully expect to be as spurious as your other claims.

        Not just the administration of the vaccines, but from the wide range of iatrogenic illnesses caused by the vaccines, many of which are chronic and lifelong.

        Evidence is required for these claims, as to prevalence, duration, and profitability of vaccine-caused conditions..

        By contrast, many of the once common childhood diseases are so mild, they often don’t require medical attention at all.

        In the 1940s, my chicken pox, rubella, and mumps did not get medical attention, because it was well known that there was no medical treatment available. For my measles, in the 1950s, the family doctor did show up to evaluate me. He decided that unless I got worse before he came back, that I was safer not being transported to the hospital.

        By the late 1950s, only 1 in 10 cases of measles was even being reported, for example.

        How is this significant? Is it actually true (supported by evidence)?

        It was likely much lower for chicken pox.

        Of course, in a conspiracy religion like yours, “likely” is a synonym for “certain”, with no evidence needed for the claim, right?

  105. #173 Gray Falcon
    June 19, 2017

    NWO Reporter, do you know how many scientists in the 60’s said tobacco was harmless? Two. Both paid by Philip Morris. Which possibility is more likely:

    1) Every single scientist on the planet in being paid off and hiding the truth.
    2) You are being paid off to spread fear and doubt.

    • #174 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Ridiculous. Most doctors and scientists and social manipulators believe what they’ve been taught to believe. They don’t question it, because they can’t fathom how it could have been taught to them by all those smart people unless it were true. That’s how deception is easily perpetuated in academia. Some may begin to discern the truth at some point, but choose to remain willfully blind out of self-interest.

      There are definitely mercenaries, though–willing to peddle anything for money. They’re all over the web. Some are in government and academia. A small number at high levels know the real purpose of vaccines is to keep the population sick, weak and obedient–and they want it that way.

      • #175 CJTX
        June 19, 2017

        WOW, that’s dumb.

        • #176 NWO Reporter
          June 19, 2017

          Your response on the other hand…BRILLIANT! Can I quote you? 😀

          • #177 CJTX
            June 19, 2017

            It’s the response your comment deserves.

            You refuse to believe in facts, evidence, and logic, so I’m just using mockery now.

          • #178 NWO Reporter
            June 19, 2017

            Well, yes…I assumed it was a rudimentary attempt at mockery. I’d say my own mockery topped yours, but I suppose I’m biased. 😀

          • #179 CJTX
            June 19, 2017

            Nope.

            You really are wrong about EVERY THING, aren’t you?

      • #180 Se Habla Espol
        June 20, 2017

        There are definitely mercenaries, though–willing to peddle anything for money. They’re all over the web.

        As you so noisily exemplify.

      • #181 Se Habla Espol
        June 20, 2017

        Most doctors and scientists and social manipulators believe what they’ve been taught to believe. They don’t question it, because they can’t fathom how it could have been taught to them by all those smart people unless it were true. That’s why there has never been any progress in medicine or science, ever. All the science-type people have been taught that everything there is to be known is known so there’s no use doing anything original, no use doubting that the ancients—”all those smart people”—knew it all.

        Oh, wait a sec…you’re describing religion, including conspiracy religion, not “[m]ost doctors and scientists”. Carry on.

  106. #182 Gray Falcon
    June 19, 2017

    NWO Reporter, if everyone has a price, what’s your price?

    • #183 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Everyone doesn’t have a price. 🙂

      • #184 Se Habla Espol
        June 20, 2017

        Everyone doesn’t have a price.

        So the mercenaries you were just babbling about don’t exist? Or maybe they’re not counted in “everyone”. Or maybe you don’t just logic very well.
        “I’ll take door number three”.

  107. #185 herr doktor bimler
    June 19, 2017

    I suppose you think people naturally acquire measles tetanus by injection, instead of through mucus membranes, too. And that the immune response is the same in both cases

    Fixed for additional entertainment.

    • #186 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Well, that’s true. But even if someone believed the tetanus vaccine were safe and effective, the ones available are combination vaccines.

      • #187 Se Habla Espol
        June 20, 2017

        But even if someone believed the tetanus vaccine were safe and effective, the ones available are combination vaccines.

        What evidence to you offer us that this is somehow of some significance?

  108. #188 brian
    June 19, 2017

    A small number at high levels know the real purpose of vaccines is to keep the population sick, weak and obedient–and they want it that way.

    Oh, man! And I was just about to catch a flight to my Illuminati meeting, too! Sleep well, NWO Reporter, on the night of 23 July.

    • #189 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Is that some kind of threat? Or does that date have a particular meaning for you?

  109. #190 MI Dawn
    June 19, 2017

    @NWOR: If VPDs were so benign, how come people were put into quarantine when they got them? How come my grandfather, a GP, was so very pro-vaccine when they cut into his income immensely (it was far more profitable to make house calls for 6-7 days than give one shot). As for your claim that vaccines lead to all sorts of chronic diseases…prove it. Prove that the vaccines increased the diseases rather than let people LIVE long enough to GET the diseases. None of the disease are new. Diabetes used to be a death sentence. So was leukemia. Now we can treat them and keep the persons alive, rather than dying.

    Of course, you apparently figure that because YOU and your family didn’t suffer from sequelae of the diseases, no one else counts. You are so self-centered.

    • #191 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Not quite–no such traumatic experiences with those illnesses for me, my family, anyone I know, or anyone I went to school with grades K-12. I will say, though, that I’ve heard an extraordinary number of such tales from the commenters on this blog. 😀

      • #192 Se Habla Espol
        June 20, 2017

        no such traumatic experiences with those illnesses for me, my family, anyone I know, or anyone I went to school with grades K-12. I will say, though, that I’ve heard an extraordinary number of such tales from the commenters on this blog.

        Maybe, just maybe, you’ll recognize that reality is so much broader than your personal experience. Maybe, just maybe, you’ll begin to see that what you’ve taught to imagine about vaccines does not conform to reality.

        Or maybe, since you’re a Troo Believer™ in your conspiracy religion, you’ll decide that since reality conflicts with your chosen imaginings, that reality must be wrong.

        • #193 NWO Reporter
          June 20, 2017

          Sure. Broader than all the thousands of people who’ve had the same experience I have. And all the doctors in the 1950s and 1960s. And all the data that shows deaths from common diseases declined by 95% prior to widespread vaccination. And that children were much healthier, with not nearly as many cases of autoimmune disorders and neurological problems. There just happens to be an extraordinary abundance of exceptionally vulnerable people on blogs devoted to extolling the wonders of vaccination. That’s “reality” for you. 😀

          • #194 Se Habla Espol
            June 20, 2017

            Sure. Broader than all the thousands of people who’ve had the same experience I have.

            But not broad enough to encompass people whose experiences differ from yours.

            And all the doctors in the 1950s and 1960s

            “All the doctors”? Evidence required that The Wife’s cousin did not experience, despite medical care, measles encephalopathy that left her disabled for the past sixty years.

            . And all the data that shows deaths from common diseases declined by 95% prior to widespread vaccination.

            Yes, dear, we’ve seen the data that shows how the medical system learned to save many, but not all, e.g. measles patients. We’ve also seen the data that shows the effective eradication of these diseases and their associated deaths as a consequence of the vaccination programs.

            And that children were much healthier,

            Evidence definitely required.

            with not nearly as many cases of autoimmune disorders and neurological problems.

            Evidence required, with adjustments or other elimination of confoumnders like recognition of the listed disease states and their separation from the undifferentiated problems. Adjustment is also needed to account for those people who would have died from VPDs, but didn’t because of vaccines.

            There just happens to be an extraordinary abundance of exceptionally vulnerable people on blogs devoted to extolling the wonders of vaccination.

            But you, possibly due to your religion, are not vulnerable? Or maybe it’s only your ego that’s invulnerable; while your body was protected by herd immunities?

            That’s “reality” for you.

            Look into your claims; maybe you’ll find some reality underneath.

  110. #195 MI Dawn
    June 19, 2017

    Oh, crud. Typed a long comment that hit moderation due to our old sock-puppet friend figuring out the other email.

    Orac: sorry…using another computer and didn’t realize it auto-entered the other email. Please feel free to delete; I’ll copy/paste the comment below.

    @NWOR: If VPDs were so benign, how come people were put into quarantine when they got them? How come my grandfather, a GP, was so very pro-vaccine when they cut into his income immensely (it was far more profitable to make house calls for 6-7 days than give one shot). As for your claim that vaccines lead to all sorts of chronic diseases…prove it. Prove that the vaccines increased the diseases rather than let people LIVE long enough to GET the diseases. None of the disease are new. Diabetes used to be a death sentence. So was leukemia. Now we can treat them and keep the persons alive, rather than dying.

    Of course, you apparently figure that because YOU and your family didn’t suffer from sequelae of the diseases, no one else counts. You are so self-centered.

    • #196 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Athlete’s foot ordinarily won’t kill you–why bother to wash your socks or clean the locker room floor?

  111. #197 herr doktor bimler
    June 19, 2017

    Working on those aerosol vaccines, herr doktor himler? How’s that going?
    Not my personal area of research, but nasal-spray vaccines are common.

    PS: Which vaccines are swallowed?
    I am surprised that you have never heard of the Oral Polio Vaccine; or the numerous oral vaccines in a veterinary context. But that is what these exchanges are good for, to learn from one another.

  112. #198 Gray Falcon
    June 19, 2017

    NWO Reporter: So, where are all the honest, intelligent doctors who are against vaccines? Which is more likely:
    1) Every doctor on the planet is stupid, greedy, or cowardly, or
    2) You are mistaken.

    • #199 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      Oh, there are many of them–dozens of doctors, immunologists and scientists who are fairly well known, and lists of doctors who respect vaccine choices. It’s easy to find them. All people have to do is ignore proclamations like “Dr. X has been discredited!” or “Dr. Y’s theories have been thoroughly debunked!” They should simply read or listen to those people for themselves, and exercise their own judgment. 🙂

      • #200 Se Habla Espol
        June 20, 2017

        Oh, there are many of them–dozens of doctors, immunologists and scientists who are fairly well known, and lists of doctors who respect vaccine choices. It’s easy to find them.

        We know that religions, including conspiracy religions, based their arguments on authorities—people the religiosi designate because (a) they seem to have credentials, and (b) can be said to agree with the idea being promoted.

        The difference between those religiosi and people who like to live in reality is that we work from evidence—both for and against the idea—and use our judgement there instread of on proclaimed credentials.

        All people have to do is ignore proclamations like “Dr. X has been discredited!” or “Dr. Y’s theories have been thoroughly debunked!”

        That’s right: listen to my choice of authority and ignore the evidence.

        They should simply read or listen to those people for themselves, and exercise their own judgment.

        IGNORE THAT EVIDENCE!!!! Listen to MY authority!!!!

        • #201 NWO Reporter
          June 20, 2017

          It’s hilarious you’re referring to conspiracies as a religion. Vaccines are the most insidious religion out there. Suggesting to a true believer that vaccines may not actually be safe and effective as we’ve all been raised to believe is like telling a lifelong devout Christian that Jesus is a myth. The emotional reaction to what should be an objective issue is immediate and intense, as if an atheist walked up to the pulpit to deliver the Sunday sermon. 😀

          • #202 Se Habla Espol
            June 20, 2017

            It’s hilarious you’re referring to conspiracies as a religion.

            How do conspiracy religions differ, in any essential degree, from any other non-theistic/non-deistic religions?

            Vaccines are the most insidious religion out there.

            How can vaccines, with their base in reality, data, and evidence, be honestly characterized as a religion? Where is the unfounded faith that is essential to religion to be found in vaccines?

  113. #203 Chris Preston
    June 19, 2017

    Nice attempt to deflect the issue: That you find it hilarious that benefits are being withheld from the poorest families in Australia unless they subject their children to the full vaccination schedule.

    As I have pointed out once before on this thread, with a link to the rules, that benefits are not being withheld. This particular payment is structured as an incentive for vaccination. Those who choose not to vaccinate their children have no entitlement to it.

    It is much like someone complaining that the old age pension is being withheld from 25 year olds.

    Clearly some minds are immune to data.

  114. #204 Gray Falcon
    June 19, 2017

    For comparison purposes, consider an actual instance where a misleading journal reference and profit-driven medicine led to disaster: The opioid epidemic. Now that the truth is known, more are more doctors are taking notice, and the CDC is actually warning doctors against prescribing them carelessly:
    http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2503508

    This is something that can potentially make more money than vaccines, easily, and yet, there’s nothing close to a cover-up. Wonder why?

    Three may keep a Secret, if two of them are dead. Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard’s Almanack

  115. #205 herr doktor bimler
    June 19, 2017

    Nice attempt to deflect the issue:

    Come now. I am sure that everyone else here can handle more than one issue at a time.
    So this rhetorical strategy of proclaiming that (a) ridicule directed at your elective ignorance about Australian policies is really ridicule directed at Australians, and (b) this redirection is now “the issue” (leaving you free to squirm away from previous outbursts of Dumbth)… whom is it supposed to convince? Does it fool you?

  116. #206 brian
    June 19, 2017

    NWO Reporter asked:

    Is that some kind of threat?

    As ususal, you’re a bit slow on the uptake, Ginny. A more astute conspiracy theorist would have recognized that as an indication of the first available timeslot for black helicopter action. (You’ll be among the first to know if we have a cancellation.)

    • #207 NWO Reporter
      June 19, 2017

      So…yes, it was…emboldened by anonymity, and punctuated with sarcasm. Creep.

  117. #208 herr doktor bimler
    June 19, 2017

    I’m not here to convince you. [therefore no need for evidence]

    Yes, readers have worked out that NWOR does not really come here for the hunting.

  118. #209 TBruce
    June 20, 2017

    I’m sorry to hear about your cancer.

    Sure you are.
    I’m sorry about your thought disorder, although I have more sympathy with those who end up reading your drivel.

  119. #210 brian
    June 20, 2017

    Ginny, think about it; Illuminati, black helicopters. . . . Now tear yourself away from Info Wars and try to crawl back to reality. It will be difficult–perhaps the hardest thing that you’ve ever done, since you have so far to go– but you can do it if you try.

    • #211 NWO Reporter
      June 20, 2017

      Stay away from me, creep.

      • #212 Se Habla Espol
        June 20, 2017

        It’s interesting to see how a person who teases you about your NWO religion gets to be a creep. When will it be my turn?

  120. #213 Chris
    June 20, 2017

    Ms. Kincaid: “I’m still an Antivaxer. I won’t be vaccinating until I’m taken seriously by scientific research that is relevant to “me & mine”.”

    So has your family joined https://sparkforautism.org/ to compare the genetic sequences between your son, his father and yourself? Considering you, as parents, were both much older than forty years old when he was born there is a very high chance of a de novo mutation.

    Remember, not only will you be actually helping the science of autism, but you may find a pathway to treatments that are actually relevant.

  121. #214 JP
    June 20, 2017

    When I first heard about the chickenpox vaccine as an adult, I actually thought it was a joke.

    Yes, because chickenpox is such a joke; never mind the amount of suffering it causes for children, even if it is rarely fatal.

    I had chickenpox something awful in kindergarten, and I still remember it. It was at least a week of misery, lying in bed or on the couch, stiff and incredibly itchy, but forbidden to scratch, feverish and out of it. It stand out very well in my memory.

    Why do you want children to have to go through that when it can be prevented? Are you a sadist?

  122. #215 herr doktor bimler
    June 20, 2017

    Vaccines introduce disease to the body in a way that does not occur in nature
    — Tetanus
    Well, that’s true. But even if someone believed the tetanus vaccine were safe and effective

    Huzzah! Progress!
    Not to forget rabies and some forms of hepatitis as more cases where vaccine and pathogen are both introduced through the skin. Nor should we forget FluMist and OPV. If it is such a big deal when isolated antigen and disease enter the body and encounter the immune system in different ways, can we agree that these are good vaccines?

    But first, perhaps we should address the casual question-begging intellectual dishonesty of “Vaccines introduce disease to the body“.

  123. #216 Dangerous Bacon
    June 20, 2017

    Obviously it is unnatural for vaccines to be injected into our soft tissues, seeing that germs only gain natural entry into our bodies by ingestion or inhalation, never through cuts, scrapes and penetrating wounds. If the latter occurred, our immune systems might have evolved to cope with it…

  124. #217 herr doktor bimler
    June 20, 2017

    Re. chickenpox, the NZ health funding people weighed up the expense and the benefits, and decided that it is cost-effective to offer free vaccination for 11-year-olds and younger.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/93662545/kids-under-11-offered-free-chickenpox-vaccine-but-older-kiwis-miss-out

  125. #218 Lawrence
    June 20, 2017

    So, let’s watch the troll ignore all evidence that contradicts her narrative:

    1) Massive decline in disease incidence rates in Third World countries after vaccination.

    2) Vaccines which were removed from the market (or never approved) for concerns about safety – like the DTP, the original crop of Lyme vaccines, and the original Rotavirus vaccines.

    Not to mention every HIV vaccine so far – none of them got approved, because they couldn’t pass clinical trials. If it was all one big conspiracy, why wouldn’t they have been approved anyway?

    3) Eradication of Rinderpest – anti’s can never explain this one, since it blows their whole sanitation argument out of the water.

    4) Every nation on Earth supports vaccinations – which means that countries which have a vested interest in not supporting the United States (or Western nations in general) or multi-national corporations either, still readily vaccinate.

    All of these little “inconvenient” facts just get glossed over and ignored by the likes of the trolls, because they have no explanation….

  126. #219 Rebecca Fisher
    That London
    June 20, 2017

    An earlier mention of the Gnat has prompted me to enquire; is his site down? I can’t access it on this public WiFi.

  127. #220 Lawrence
    June 20, 2017

    Nope – unfortunately his site is still up, for as long as his parents decide to pay the electric bill.

  128. #221 Jonas
    June 20, 2017

    Chris @210 wrote “So has your family joined https://sparkforautism.org/ to compare the genetic sequences between your son, his father and yourself?”

    She should, in my opinion. I actually know the principal investigator for that study in the Northern New England region, Dr. Matthew Siegel.

    I also agree that it is very likely that Christine’s son’s autism is the result of him having been born to older parents. A 40-year old father passes on more than double the number of de novo mutations that a 20-year old father would.

    It is very unfortunate that she incorrectly blames vaccines for her son’s autism, rather than what is clearly the most likely cause-advanced parental age (from what I understand, the father’s age is more important than the mother’s age when it comes to the risk of autism).

  129. #222 Johnny
    127.0.0.1
    June 20, 2017

    I will also note that the king of socks has posted a Jake’s place under his Lord Windemere name.

    It’s a good place for him – he could be Jake’s dumber, but just as offensive, brother.

  130. #223 Jonas
    June 20, 2017

    @JP-Chickenpox can be fatal even in previously healthy patients. Yes, death from chickenpox in previously healthy patients may be uncommon, but it can happen.
    http://www.immunize.org/reports/report004.asp

  131. #224 Gray Falcon
    June 20, 2017

    Also, why isn’t the NWO covering up the opioid epidemic? Surely they would benefit heavily from a population hooked on painkillers.

  132. #225 Lawrence
    June 20, 2017

    Once you start picking apart her carefully constructed narrative, the entire thing just collapses under its own weight.

    Globally, vaccines generate just a little over $30 Billion in revenue (not profit, just revenue) – when you figure in the R&D costs, personnel costs & other overhead, the profits from vaccines probably amount to only a few billion (at best), spread across multiple companies, globally.

    Let’s compare that, to say, Exxon Mobile, who managed to, in a single quarter some years back, to generate more than $70 Billion dollars in PROFIT.

    Vaccines are chicken feed compared to any other type of successful pharmaceutical produce – yet they have the exact same overhead – meaning that the money spent on R&D doesn’t generate nearly the profits as say, another Viagra.

    Anyone with even a passing education in economics understands this & again, why these grand conspiracy theories fall apart under even the most basic observation.

    It’s sad really.

  133. #226 Jonas Mollica
    June 20, 2017

    I know Lawrence-I mean if you compare profits from, say, statins, to profits from vaccines, there is simply no comparison.

    I also pointed out to NWOR, a few weeks ago, that if there wasn’t a flu vaccine, some pharmaceutical companies (GSK, Roche) would make MORE $$ since demand for Tamiflu and Relenza would go way up. As I expected, she ignored it.

  134. #227 Jonas
    June 20, 2017

    Oh…I accidentally posted a comment using my full name…. on my tablet, it automatically includes my full name. (“chrome autofill settings, or something automatically includes my last name). That comment is awaiting moderation since it looks like a new commenter… I don’t know if Orac can remove my last name from that comment or not and just approve the comment without including my last name…?

  135. #228 Jonas
    June 20, 2017

    This is the comment I accidentally posted under my full name:

    “I know Lawrence-I mean if you compare profits from, say, statins, to profits from vaccines, there is simply no comparison.

    I also pointed out to NWOR, a few weeks ago, that if there wasn’t a flu vaccine, some pharmaceutical companies (GSK, Roche) would make MORE $$ since demand for Tamiflu and Relenza would go way up. As I expected, she ignored it.”

  136. #229 Alain
    June 20, 2017

    Chris,

    but you may find a pathway to treatments that are actually relevant

    Maybe that’s because I spend a gigantic time being overloaded (Am moving out and getting my own apartment sometime around next week as a fix to that situation) but I’m curious about the possible treatment modalities enabled by gene research but I’d say, two possible hypothesis are gene therapy as well as psychological therapy based on the research finding done by a computational approach of cognition inferred by a large scale brain simulation like the human brain project and other, lower scale of the same approach (brain column and minicolumn based).

    Any other hypothesis?

    Alain

  137. #230 Julian Frost
    Gauteng East Rand
    June 20, 2017

    Once you start picking apart her carefully constructed narrative, the entire thing just collapses under its own weight.

    Indeed. One of the reasons it fails is that Medical Insurers, who would be prejudiced if vaccines are ineffective or harmful, vigourously support them. My Medical Aid provider not only lets me get the flu shot for free every year, it awards me points for getting it.

  138. #231 Narad
    June 20, 2017

    NWO Reporter: So, where are all the honest, intelligent doctors who are against vaccines?

    It’s easy to find them. All people have to do is ignore seek out proclamations like “Dr. X has been discredited!” or “Dr. Y’s theories have been thoroughly debunked!”

    FTFY.

  139. #232 JustaTech
    June 20, 2017

    I’ve got to say I’m deeply amused by NWO’s belief that scientists don’t ask questions, or question the things they are taught.
    LOL
    Being a scientists means asking questions, picking apart conclusions (your own and other people’s)and generally arguing about everything.

    So, NWO, you hate vaccines. How do you feel about antibiotics? Soap?

    • #233 NWO Reporter
      June 20, 2017

      Of course, you are more than happy to drag the reputation of any scientist who challenges consensus reality through the mud in the course of your duties. And you breezily pretend that scientists don’t live and die by funding. Soap, which has been around for thousands of years, is good. Therefore, vaccines are good. Classic.

      • #234 Se Habla Espol
        June 20, 2017

        Of course, you are more than happy to drag the reputation of any scientist who challenges consensus reality through the mud in the course of your duties.

        When will you be posting evidence that this actually happens, and that JustaTech participates or is even gladdened? I won’t hold my breath, of course, given your displayed propensity for making unsupported accusations and claims and changing the subject when challenged.

        • #235 NWO Reporter
          June 20, 2017

          Yes, yes…a peer reviewed study published in a reputable medical journal establishing that Justatech feels ‘happy’ when he belittles scientists who step outside status quo paradigms will soon be forthcoming.

          Meanwhile, the excruciatingly literal Espol will cautiously defer any opinion about Justaech’s feelings, and send others scrambling to compile a thesis on his comment history while Espol catches up on Super Friends reruns.

          • #236 Se Habla Espol
            June 20, 2017

            the excruciatingly literal Espol

            Thank you for noticing that I have this habit of assuming people to be honest and forthright in their utterances unless they give some hint that they’re joking around. It’s perhaps funny that I have no problem with people who actually are, unlike you, honest and forthright.

          • #237 NWO Reporter
            June 20, 2017

            I was being honest and forthright, and I was not joking around. Yet still, your interpretation was excruciatingly literal. 🙂

          • #238 Se Habla Espol
            June 20, 2017

            So you were being “honest and forthright”, not joking at all, when you wrote

            a peer reviewed study published in a reputable medical journal establishing that Justatech feels ‘happy’ when he belittles scientists who step outside status quo paradigms will soon be forthcoming.

            Thank you for showing what an antivax propagandist considers “honest and forthright”.

            It’s also telling that NWOR considers being taken seriously as “excruciatingly literal”. But NWOR is an honourable man “honest an forthright”.

          • #239 NWO Reporter
            June 20, 2017

            The phrase you quoted above is called satire, Espol. I’ll let you look it up yourself. 🙂

          • #240 Se Habla Espol
            June 21, 2017

            The phrase you quoted above is called satire, Espol.

            Which phrase is satire? I quoted a couple phrases: “honest and forthright” and “excruciatingly literal”. On what basis can one recognize either one as satire? Or perhaps it’s just another case of a religioso screwing up and calling it a jpoke when called on it.

            I’ll let you look it up yourself.

            Which phrase should I look up, and why?

  140. #241 herr doktor bimler
    June 20, 2017

    a large scale brain simulation like the human brain project
    Do not expect any results from the HBP itself. Its continued existence is a demonstraton of the power of institutional inertia in science funding, but that’s all it’s good for. Everyone in the EU funding establishment seems to accept that it’s a billion-Euro boondoggle, but they have to go on funding it anyway rather than accept that the previous investment just went down rat-holes.

  141. #242 herr doktor bimler
    June 20, 2017

    if you compare profits from, say, statins, to profits from vaccines, there is simply no comparison.

    All the longer-established anti-vaxxers accept that vaccine development / production is only marginally profitable, so they pin their hopes on Trump repealing the vaccine-court legislation so that ambulance-chasing lawyers can drive pharma companies out of the US market.
    From the conspiratorial perspective, this may demonstrate that all the anti-vax ‘establishment’ are all Controlled Opposition, mere dupes of the conspiracy

  142. #243 Gray Falcon
    June 20, 2017

    NWO Reporter: “Of course, you are more than happy to drag the reputation of any scientist who challenges consensus reality through the mud in the course of your duties.”

    Take a look at the list of Nobel Prize winners. Note the number who got their award for challenging the consensus.

  143. #244 JustaTech
    June 20, 2017

    NWO @233: I was not in any way shape or form saying that if soap is good then vaccines are good. That’s just silly, not to mention illogical.
    Let me spell it out more clearly. I am trying to figure out if you don’t like 1) just vaccines, 2) modern medicine 3) germ theory.
    I know you don’t like vaccines. So I asked how you feel about antibiotics to elucidate your feelings on modern medicine. I asked how you feel about soap to see how you feel about germ theory.

    So, being completely blunt and transparent:
    NWO, how do you feel about antibiotics? How do you feel about any other part of modern medicine?
    NWO, do you think that germ theory is a robust explanation of infection and disease?

  144. #245 brian
    June 20, 2017

    @ Gray Falcon

    Long before he received the Nobel Prize for challenging the consensus in chemistry, Peter Mitchell would sometimes include in his talks a slide with an upward-trending line plotted with the X axis labeled in years and the Y axis labeled with something like “scientists who accept the Mitchell Hypothesis.”

  145. #246 Alain
    June 20, 2017

    Do not expect any results from the HBP itself. Its continued existence is a demonstraton of the power of institutional inertia in science funding, but that’s all it’s good for

    🙂

    I had this sinking feeling…basically, I checked out the number of publications by the Markram couple on autism and the only result they got are from mice studies and not that many at that. It seem (my own impression) that they are both really busy over, one the one hand, the HBP (H. Markram) and on the other hand, frontiers publishing (K. Markram).

    Alain

  146. #247 Alain
    June 20, 2017

    On a remotely similar topic to #238, I’m involved (personal pet project) into the buildup of an intel core2 (old) computer with a brand new 1TB hard drive and a decent nvidia card. I also downloaded the entirety of the pubmed database (26GB in compressed xml form) as of last weekend to do text mining research assisted by the nvidia graphic card and tensorflow.

    Should I get a slight bit of money available (got an appointment at my bank on Thursday for a credit card), there will be a bump in ram and a few other hard disks to delve into genetic mining.

    Alain

  147. #248 herr doktor bimler
    June 20, 2017

    bucking consensus reality.
    any scientist who challenges consensus reality

    I expect scientists to challenge our understanding of “consensus reality”. Questioning the existence of “consensus reality” is best left to poets and surrealist painters.

    Alain,
    I checked out the number of publications by the Markram couple on autism and the only result they got are from mice studies

    I think the back-story went something like this:
    1. The EU science-funding establishment decided to pour all the research money into a few ambitious, blue-sky projects (inspired by the moon-shot and the Human Genome project), on the theory that even if the goals were missed, the spraying-around of money would stimulate new technologies.

    In effect they decided to throw colossal budgets at whichever scammers and charlatans came up with the most grandiose promises. But it let them pay themselves larger salaries.

    2. The Human Brain Project, to simulate a complete human cortex and deliver AI by 2020. Promised by someone who can’t even simulate the functioning of a single neuron. Linked to the ‘Frontiers’ academic Ponzi scheme.

    3. Total debacle.

    4. The HBP is still going, though under new management, and without any actual objectives (except the continued acceptance of money). Too big to stop.
    https://forbetterscience.com/2017/02/22/human-brain-project-bureaucratic-success-despite-scientific-failure/

  148. #249 Alain
    June 21, 2017

    HDB,

    Retroscope notwithstanding, I should obey my instinct a bit more often. From memory, I remember reading the papers coming out of the blue brain and finding them really hard to dissect as to what they ended up describing and had some self doubt that I needed more training / learning (yeah, I’m working on that).

    But, what I’m thinking now is that they haven’t done the due diligence of curating the needed paperwork (paperwork == scientific publications in this context) on the physics, chemistry and chemoinformatics field to build a functioning neuron (and yeah, I did test their software, couldn’t figure out how it worked).

    <sarcasm>I think I got my career set out in accounting…pardon, scientific accounting</sarcasm>

    <more seriously>With the spare computer, I’m starting out with pubmed but over the next few years, I’ll investigate other databases in the stem & computational stem field.

    Alain

  149. #250 Chris
    June 21, 2017

    Alain: “… but I’m curious about the possible treatment modalities enabled by gene research… ”

    It has more to do with diet, similar to the issues with phenylketonuria. I can’t find my notes but one pair of mutations had to do with sodium channels, one required more sodium and another required less sodium. Plus there are other similarities between children with certain genetic variations, so there are now online forums of families based on specific genetic variations to keep up with research, etc.

    Searching on PubMed I found these:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28321286
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28287497

    There are several others.

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